#1988 - James Reed

33:54It is. I mean, does it do his offspring have this? That's exactly what the scientists wanted to know. Because obviously for it to be if like evolutionary benefit needs to persist, his offspring don't actually, not in a way that, you know, if every kid that Pinta had sort of came out with these eyes, you would suddenly think, well, well, he is a little mutation that is, he's been reproductively successful. and this could help and it could actually change. But no, they didn't find that actually. So, you know, for instance, Rollins, who's the patrol leader in the West, that's Pins and Sun, and he doesn't have that.

34:47He's an incredible eyes actually, they're very piercing, but he doesn't have the same eyes. How common is that variation? I really, we just say we because the scientist generously made me an author on the paper and I think, you know, I didn't do any of the real science work on it at all, but I think because of the conversations we were having, it sort of inspired that particular study. I think they found that there was, again, don't quote me on the numbers, but something in the order of sort of 13 individuals at NgoGo. So a non -trivial percentage, that sounds very sciencey, but it means that like, you know, it was a significant percentage, enough to take note of, and that, that's as far as the studies got.

35:43They don't really understand the impact of that if it has any impact at all. You know, it could just be random variation. And because I'm going through such a huge group, you know, that you would expect to see more variety and more incidences of things that occur on low levels. So they still really don't understand the role of that. But it was interesting me on two levels. I thought it was fascinating because it made me just wonder about what's going on behind those eyes and but also as a human you just engage with pincer in this you know it's like suddenly there's a part of his face that feels a lot more familiar I remember um one of the scientists there who was there years ago and I was there Kevin Pots and like say they'd say different things around the fire at night as to what they'd say in the scientific papers I remember Kevin going oh I'm totally with your pencil and he said honestly some days I'll be out there following Pinter around and he's just sitting there close to me and I just think Guy any minute he's gonna sit just turn around and say what you doing Kevin and I he was there yeah I mean look at those eyes that's wild he's so unusual he was remarkable I mean that yeah that's Kevin Langer -Grabber the one of the scientists from one go go that, yeah, I mean everybody loved Pinser and everybody was very, very engaged with him.

37:26But even at a distance, you see, you see, what's he thinking, what is he about to do? And you have to wonder, like that, it makes us think that. So are the other chimps reading anything from that? Was there any correlation between chimps that have that characteristic and specific roles they play in the tribe?

37:51Well, as we said, it's a small portion of them and very little sort of, they've done no specific study on it, But Pinser was the best example. He appeared to be more involved in the corporate if behaviors than your average chimp. You know, that's what, you know, the the scientist in Gogo was saying, you know, when there's a hunt Pinser's there, you know, when there's a patrol, he's there. So he seemed, but chimps without white scleror would be doing that as well. The interesting thing about Pinser was how many offspring he had, you know, He was actually a low ranking male, his whole life. And he had the same number of offspring as the alpha male at the time.

38:41So here's an alpha male that's dedicated his entire life to knocking off other guys on his weight at the top. And all the stress associated with being an alpha male and go, go. And ultimately, it's all about having kids. And he had fewer kids than Pinta, who had just hung out at number 18, number 19, you know, shine away from fights, but was very successful. But those things could be completely unrelated because Pinto was also fascinating and that he had a different sort of strategy with females as well. He spent a lot of time with females in ways that some of the higher -ranking males didn't.

39:27So they would wait until the female, They wouldn't really spend much time with the females concentrate on their male relationships And then when the the females you know, we're in a reproductive state in Easter's then they'd give all right Okay, now it's time and and use their position to gain access to it whereas Pinser played the more sort of Gile -friend type game. He spent a lot of time with females even when they weren't reproductively in that state so it wasn't for immediate benefits, but he spent a lot of time, he put the hours in, and yeah, the Ugandan field trackers, they love Pinser, and they used to describe these different female chimps as Pinser's girlfriend and Pinser's wives, depending on how much time he spent with them, but it's been a lot of time with females.

40:22So, you know, is there anything to do with the white to the eyes, he was just a fascinating champ and he did things in it in a bit of a different way to what your average male champ is expected to do. It's so interesting that he has that characteristic and then he also exhibits behavior that's slightly more human in clever. I totally agree. You're encouraging me in laser ways in which the scientists have laid the legs. You've got to, there's no proof for that James, there's no proof for that. I'm with Jane now so we can go down there. But yeah, I mean, I, that's, I've been, you, you can get really fascinated and carried away with those things.

41:06And the thing is, there's, there's loads we, we just simply don't understand about it. So all of that is possible. But yeah, in scientific world, you need that proof, that data to support it. But like I said, privately everybody, the door, pencil, was fascinated by him and knew there's something different. Well, I appreciate the intellectual discipline and I'm like separating it that way and saying there is no real scientific evidence. But my goodness is it's, it's so fascinating. The whole thing was incredible. I mean, I feel like I learned more watching those chimps from your documentary than anything.

41:42And I've been obsessed with chimps, like if you see with a skull and everything. I mean, my whole life, I think they're so interesting. They're so close to us. I mean, and at one point in time, we're sort of in the same group of hominids and something happened to us and they sort of remain the same. And it's just that I think out of all the animals that human beings have ever studied, none of them are as fascinating as chimpanzees. They're just because of our direct connection to them, are close relation to them. I totally agree. I mean, you know, some people love animals because they're different in different ways.

42:21And some people don't like chimps because they're very similar. In some ways that are really good, in some ways which are quite dark. You know, there are lots of similarities. You know, there are important differences as well. I think, you know, that is what makes them so fascinating. If they were really, really similar, then it will be too similar. The entry is where that similarity end and the differences begin. I think that's a very personal experience watching gyms. I think that's why people find it so cool as well. You relate to different qualities in them as a species or different individuals.

43:06And I hope that's what we did for Chimpanzee because we tried to pick a real range of perspectives and because they are complex creatures, they are all different. And you can say chimpanzees are like this or chimpanzees are like that or chimpanzee of this age does this or that. and some of those generalisms are true and are useful, but that sort of individual variation, that difference in personality from chimp to chimp that really affects what happens to them, and what they do and who their relationships with. That's what's really fascinating. And I think as a human just, yeah, you gravitate towards different qualities and different chimed characters.

44:02No, I think you did a fantastic job of highlighting that. And it's so compelling and so interesting. I mean, what is it like to be embedded with this tribe for so long and then go back to regular civilization? Is there like a bit of an adjustment period? Well, like we were there as a team, we were there for about 400 days. That's a huge totally amiss. The team members are human team members swapped in and out. So the camera crew which was made up of four people usually to on each group. They do sort of between six weeks and two months at a time and then they'd come out and leave the forest, leave Uganda, come back home, get their lives in order, you know, have some rest and then they'd come out for another two months when the second team was finished and we sort of tag -team the camera crews.

45:05I you know I was not out nearly as often as the camera crew so I personally would go out at the start of the shoots and help set up with the camera teams and and introduce them to what we were trying to do and the characters we were following and how we wanted to film them. At the same time, it's a real sort of observational documentary. So my role in it was to you know, to try and you know give them a good sense of the overall approach that we were taking, the dedication that we wanted to film specific characters day after day after day, and that only after filming them in that sort of level of commitment are we going to really get a sense of who they are.

45:59And that involves filming chimps when they're not doing stuff that's very interesting. And I remember early days, Gus, who's one of my favorite gems, the anti -social adolescent. He just thought he was going to be an interesting character from the start, but the camera team who was sort of tasked with sort of following him, you know, for miles and hours and hours during the day, they were coming back at the start and going, you know, I don't know about this Gus guy, he doesn't do a lot and he's off on his own and, you know, and they'd be all this like commotion over the other part of the forest and as a camera person it's like

46:41where's Jackson? I can hear Jackson kicking off and you know the jealous of the people who had the more sort of immediately exciting targets but that was what we had to do to bring that diversity of characters to life is that you know some characters won't do a lot on a day -to -day basis but then when they do you're fully invested in them and you're with them and it was his inactivity that was kind of his Gus' story actually. He was often on his own which meant he wasn't doing a lot because he's just him and the trees but then when he came out of that sort of isolation and tried to groom someone desperately trying to make a friend he will with him you know you're like oh this guy he's come into the group maybe he's gonna maybe someone's gonna grim in back so it was yeah it was important to follow that that range of characters but it would be being sort of immersed for that long you know it's an incredible experience and I think the for everybody involved in it that was part of it yours you're living you literally live within the in Gogogo chimpanzee territory because the the scientific study has a camp So like this small island in the middle of the Ingo Go Territory.

48:02So there, you know, it's completely pristine rainforest in every direction, but there's a little clearing. And it's been there for decades, and there's a selection of sort of tents and little log cabins, very low impact and small, but that's where the scientists in the Ugandan field trackers stay every year when they go out there. and we stayed there. But being immersed in it, even at night time, you know, where you can hear the sounds of the forest, and you know the chimps are out there, sleep being not that far from you. That really helps with engaging in their lives, actually. Had we been able to sort of like nip in and out and stay in a hotel outside, you know?

48:45Everybody wanted, you know, you missed the comforts a lot, you know. And when you do get out, you love it. But it was an important part of the process to be properly immersed and to live in the forest and it just, it helped you sort of feel what they feel a little bit. I would imagine that the coordination of filming and then the editing process of trying to piece together a narrative is incredibly complex and difficult because you have 400 days of footage that you want to boil down to four shows. It is very difficult and I think, you know, we couldn't know, we had ambitions for it, but we couldn't know how successful we were going to be at it.

49:36You know what I mean? We managed to film a lot more than I ever expected. So the schedule and the technical workflow, you know, batteries charging, how you offload all the footage each day, the daylies, all of that stuff was sort of based on an assumption that we wouldn't, you know, we wouldn't have the level of access that we actually had. And the team was so good and the cameras that evolved quite a lot since I was filming chimps even few years previously. So we got an enormous amount of footage. You know, it's also just working with the team of scientists who just totally believed in it and enabled us to get that level of access, helped us predict what was going to happen, where they were going to go.

50:30So we just, yeah, we filmed a lot more than I ever expected. And, yeah, condensing that down and simplifying it into a four -part series was a huge challenge. Like I said, from beginning we were totally disciplined about certain things. However, we were going to tell the story that unfolded over that 18 months. There's not the option to make things up or create stories that didn't happen. And so we were, you know, the challenge was going to be, well, what do we not use, basically? So we filmed a lot more than we ever needed and we did that in terms of range of characters as well. There were a whole character storylines that we filmed that didn't make it in.

51:31So that's where we were, that's where our editing process in our sort of the creative approach to it was that we're going to be able to make these really dramatic and accessible stories by by mission, by what we don't have in. But that process is sort of like sculpting process, you sort of come back with a hundred hours worth of footage off one shoot and we did six shoots and then you sort of go through that and just gradually sculpt it down to the characters and the moments in those character stories that you feel are the most interesting or reflect what really happened. Now what is that process like?

52:18First of all, No, nothing. How are you recharging batteries? So, combination of solar and generators. So we had a couple of generators that we would stick on for our slots during the day, and that would cover downloading the footage when it came back and also charging batteries and radios as well. So we had a few electrical needs that the scientists didn't have and wouldn't set up for. So there were some things we needed to do, yet we had two generators. We tried to use them as infrequently as possible because even though they were quiet for a generator, but you still don't want to be chugging away and using up fuel in a sort of low impact situation there.

53:12But we did need a bit of power. But we were always able to offload cards and charge batteries and then we're ready for the next day. and then you have to do it again and again and again. I would imagine that at the end of the day, there probably has to be a very complex system of organizing what you got and defining it. And then you have so much footage to be able to go over that and try to piece together a storyline and to know on what cards and what hard drives you have what data, because you're not uploading it anywhere, correct? No, it's all there. This is quite technical stuff. If you're interested in it, I can get in there.

54:00Yeah, and we went through loads of sort of working out. How do we make sense of this? Did you coordinate this in advance before the expedition began? Yeah, huge amount of work beforehand on all sorts of things. So all the camera, we tested out a ton of cameras. So there's lots of things on the technical camera side that we had to, and that involved going to local forests in the UK. There's in terms of capabilities. Low -like capability and weight and ease of use because not to get distracted by that. I'll come back to all the logging and things. but at the camera side, there's a scientist who was one of the first guys out there and called David Watts.

54:47He's a professional at Yale. He's a very big deal, very eminent scientist. But he chose for his own personal interest to carry around a little camcorder, since not from day one, there but very early from when he first went to see the chimps in the early 90s he carried around tiny little palm camcorder. Mini DV taped or something at the time and he's had various versions over the years as they've got a bit more modern but you know something it's about 400 grams that you could just stick in his backpack with a with a bottle of water. Over the years he's filmed things that no film crew has ever managed to get.

55:30Now he films them like a scientist, his video data for him, he's not filming it for, it's not a 4K Netflix production. But he's just filmed moments in their lives that have just been impossible for film crews, carrying enormous equipment, very heavy tripods, they're stable in the forest, giant long lenses, is traditionally film crews, if they only really managed to capture small parts of their lives. Whereas David was filming these incredible things regularly. It just felt like he had this amazing access. And I'm thinking, if we can find some version of that, where we have the same level of access that David has, but with cameras, with new technology that will deliver for a sort of 4K Netflix production.

56:24So in the end, I mean, if I had the camera on the table now, you'll be like, well, that doesn't look very small. And it was, you know, in the camera crew, be like, well, they work quite heavy, actually. And you had to carry them around in backpacks. But they were significantly lighter and easier to use than things that would normally be used on those sorts of shoes. So that made an enormous difference. and I think that, but in a way that's related to this huge volume of footage. So we sort of came up with this fantastic set up with the cameras, but it allowed these camera people who fit as well and just like super keen to just film all sorts of things that we didn't expect to get.

57:08Then we have this huge challenge where we've got volumes of footage, the, you know, often with things that you kind of, You might film a grooming scene for sort of two hours, and then in the end, you only want to use a few shots of it. You're still representing what happened there, but you've got this huge volume of stuff to cut out. So yeah, long months before we ever went there, we're trying to work out how are we going to organize this stuff? And we need to organize it like when it's fresh, because we need to know who's in that shot. We can't just end up in the edit with like 300 hours, So, who's that chimped again?

57:45Oh, I think that's Carter. You just can't do any of that stuff. So, imagine like, I imagine reality series do do a similar thing actually, this sort of observational docks where you're just filming a ton of people all the time or CCTV style stuff. But for us, we needed to straight away back up the footage and then assess what we had and every single shot needs to be logged with which chimps are in that shot, what they're doing, what are the conditions, and then there's all the data about that's built into it that says when it was and even in some case GPS information. So all of that went into every single shot.

58:29So at the end of it, we've got this enormous library and this cool bit of software where you can go, I'm pretty sure I know the story beats that we've recorded with Gus, but let's just typing Gus and bringing up every shot of Gus that we got over the year and it would go, and then, that's Gus, everything that we've got of Gus. And so, we had to, once we knew the characters that we wanted to be viewing this story through, we were able to concentrate on them and sort of build out of the narrative that we filmed there. Yeah, build their storylines in parallel to the storylines with the group. Now that there's cell phones that are capable of 4K and you know you're talking about how this one scientist was able to get access with this little very small camcorder, was Is there any thought of using cell phones?

59:34Because they're so small now and the cameras are so good. They are, and they are really good. In the forest, they are less good actually because it's a real low light situation. So that's, you know, and you don't have the ability with cell, you can zoom in on most phones, can't you, but the quality goes right down. and it's in digital zoom, so you're not using as much of the sensor. So although they are extremely impressive, and when you're in a situation with loads of light, the images look, you know, you can blow them up on a screen like that and they look good. But they don't actually compare to sort of professional cameras in that type of situation.

1:00:16But when you're talking about this one scientist that had this very tiny camera in all the incredible footage that he was able to get, I would imagine that with cell phones today, particularly with these various add -on lenses that you can, little cases that you could put on a small cell phone. You know what? I don't think we didn't think about it a lot because of the assumptions at the time was that it still wasn't going to be quite enough. But I agree. I mean, I think this, you know, you'd certainly, they would be recording at a level that you wouldn't have been able to before. I still think we are compromised with to try and get the highest quality possible while getting that access.

1:01:01So like I said, if I actually got the camera out now you'd be getting like, that looks like a pretty big deal. It's bigger than these cameras, for instance. But it was still relatively small compared to most sort of nature show sets. So when you're filming, you film for 400 days, how long is that editing process? So we went to like a huge pre -editing process, which was talking about earlier, going from that, right, this is everything that we've shot, reducing it right down to, you know, the best bits and the most relevant scenes that we've filmed. And you know, Gus is quite a good example. We would, you know, film them for hours, not doing very much and looking like he was struggling socially.

1:01:55And, you know, so you don't actually need to make that point and to share that experience with the viewer. You only actually need a small amount of that. So there's a phase of it where you sort of just reduce it down to everything you think, the boil it right down. This was the story that we recorded in its most representative chunks. And that really helps. You get it right down to a manageable level. And then and then looking at that and thinking, okay, well, how's this going, how are we going to divide up these, this narrative across four episodes? And and there's obviously that's where we had quite a lot of choice.

1:02:41You know, it's a, the story unfolded in a particular way, but we, we could choose when to introduce the different groups, and we could choose how much to expand certain parts of the story, and then how much to sort of compress times during that narrative that we recorded. So there are quite a lot of creative choices there. Like I say, the overall the series at the end, that's what happened. But there's a whole load of bits that we sort of compressed because you didn't necessarily need to see this period between that and that. And it wasn't relevant for the story. But yeah, editing, so a lot of work done before the edit, because you couldn't have expected any editors to come in and just go, well, you know, there's the rushes.

1:03:38Make us a good opening show, really. So load a work done before the editors got on board. But then, yeah, four different editors, about 20 weeks per episode. Wow. Wow. Yes, what's that like five months or something? But you know, that sounds like a really long time and it is, but you have to be in a position to share a cut in this case Netflix about halfway through that process. So actually, you know, putting together a show that really works and illustrates the story that you've captured in a dramatic way. Yeah, it takes quite a lot of work and that needs to be representative of where you're going by the time you first show it.

1:04:37I would imagine that's one of the biggest challenges of this whole piece, this whole series. Yeah, I mean, a lot of different challenges along the way and in some ways, like each time you knock off one of the challenges, you know, you feel a bit more relaxed about it. I personally, I love being in the edit, sort of my happy place. I mean, I like being in the field. I used to like it more when I was younger and fit or actually. It's getting harder. I mean, I'm not, it's not like an old man or anything, but like the camera crew is younger and fit than I am and lighter. But the edit is, you know, that's, I love that part of the process.

1:05:23And you know, you can really, things can be, you know, you can edit shows in a lot of different ways and the sort of style and tone and the music and things. A lot of the sort of, a lot of the overall feel of the series starts to come to life. So, and I think we were fantastic editor Sam Rogers who I've worked with a few times before and he did the first episode And he did a really really good job, great instincts for it and we were very well prepared and we You know initially we didn't do any sort of narration on it because we wanted to sort of do a test of like How much are you gonna just engage with these chimps and not be told what's happening or what might be about to happen or what that means just let's just do without any commentary at all to start with and it was a fantastic exercise because then we showed Sarah Netflix that that first cut and everyone loved it and you could follow it and you were just like you were right in there and you know in a way I sort of in some ways I missed that.

1:06:39that first version because it was an odd experience, just sort of like, no, just we are just going to be following the chimps and the edit and the music and the sound is going to sort of tell us what's happening here. You might have liked that because it was a very sort of direct experience with the chimps. Have you thought about releasing a different version that doesn't have narration. But it seems like you have so much footage. And I would imagine that it's just more people watching. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, in the end, because we got Mahesh Lali and I just loved that part of the process as well.

1:07:20So I think in the end, I thought it was a great exercise, but actually, we wanted it to reach a broad audience. we did want another layer of thought process there and some interpretation. And, you know, initially it is a fantastic job. And I think that, you know, yeah, there are other voices we could have had on it that I may have sort of regretted and that may have taken something away from that. And I think that was, yeah, for me, that sort of confirmed that, yeah, we looked out with Mahishra and he was fantastic because it gave it something else. It gave it an extra sort of conceptual layer.

1:08:09That I think really, really helps. But, but certainly makes it more relatable to humans. It does, yeah. It makes it easier to follow along, especially if someone is not completely fascinated with just observing chin behavior with no narration. Yeah, and the thing is, is that you can't like stylistically, there's whole sections that you could follow actually without any narration, but then that becomes quite an unusual experience if you're just like, you go like 20 minutes without hearing a word and then in the here should have popped up because there actually need something you need to know, something here about what's at stake.

1:08:49That's often how we sort of tried to shape the narration was sort of on a need to know basis. I think we, because the voice really worked, we sort of decide to use it a little bit more, but our initial approach was, Well, I think it's in situations, you know, for instance, Gus going to a room, Abrams or whatever. You need to know what's at stake there. You need to know that he doesn't actually have any grooming partners and that this is, you know, this sort of opportunity with a template like Abrams could change his situation. And you could, you know, partly you could follow that visually but I think it really helped sort of really solidifying some of those thoughts.

1:09:47You have so much footage and four shows. Has there been thought about expanding this and doing more episodes? I mean I think it will be hard because the series covers the true chronology of events. So all the real drama and real things that happened throughout that period, you know, represented in the series. So quite a lot of the footage that we didn't use suggest sort of other examples of the same thing that we didn't, you know, less descriptive versions of, you know, all repeated behaviors and things. So there wasn't a lot of things that but you sort of feel, ooh, there's a whole other show in there.

1:10:37And also they weren't things that, you know, how the series concludes. That was really at the end of our final shoot. So the footage that we have is sort of supporting material for everything that's sort of out there. But, I mean, you know, the story still continues in GoGo. things are still going on there and still changing. Do you get updates? So we're pretty close to all the scientists there and have been for years with friends and staying touch. I'm seeing one of them tonight, actually who lives in Austin. But they are often texting things the happening now that they know would be interested in.

1:11:33Now has there been thought about doing another series? Because this has obviously been very successful. Well, you know, I think, I mean, it's hard to say, you know, it's only been a few weeks. So it's hard to say how successful it is yet. Because Netflix doesn't tell you. No, they're crafty with that. Yeah, it's obviously anecdotally from people that I know. I mean, so many people recommended it before I watched it. I got so many text messages like, you must watch this. This is right up your alley. So many people told me about it. Well, I think, I think because of your interest, you might get a bit of a bias on sort of like, overall conversation on it, maybe.

1:12:14I don't know, I'm assuming, because people know you're in the chimps. I think, yeah, I mean, I read the Twitter for you each day. I can't resist or refresh that. I see what people are saying about it. and really, yeah, I'm really excited about the feedback. You should be. But I don't know, yeah, whether it's going to get bigger or bigger or who knows. I mean, I personally, and the whole team who are involved in it, you just can't fall in love with that place and the people who work there and the, and all the chimps. Whether we're filming or not, you wanna I'm not gonna find out what's happening, what's happening, go go, because you're following that story, whether you film it or not.

1:13:01And I think we'll always be on a sort of like, we wanna find out, here's Abraham's in charge.

1:13:10Yeah, there's things that have happened that were constantly being updated about. I think we left it going to a second season, but I think that's, you know, quite an undertaking. It's huge undertaking, but I think we learnt so much on the first one, that I mean, you know, a lot of the pain about how to do it, we sort of, we're much easier things, second time around. But also seems like one of the most unusual situations where there has been these embedded scientists in this area for 30 years and these chimps are are so accustomed to it. I mean, to try to reestablish that somewhere else. And then this is a very unusual group of chimpanzees too, right?

1:13:57It is. I mean, there are other chimpanzee sites, several other chimpanzee sites around Africa where they have a similar, you know, the chimps are habituated, long term scientific projects, you know, Jane Goodall being a perfect example, you know, here, here project has been there long before the guys are studying in Gogo. So that's much longer term, you know, there's study sites in Thai and the Ivory Coast and Fongoli. You know, there's many of them. What's unique about in Gogo is as well as having that level of access and data and sort of, so you just have so much information about the chimps, but there's also just a ton of chimps.

1:14:39and they are quite unique in that the Angogo territory is surrounded by forest in every direction. Whereas at other sites, often chimpanzee habitats, sort of bordered by farmland or human settlements of some kind. So they're quite sort of, it's a little wild pocket in amongst an area that is less wild. And I think this is unique for study sites of chimps. They have, it's wild in every direction outside of there. So that does impact their behavior and their sort of group dynamics because the edge of their territory is not like some land they can't go on. It's a land they can take because it belongs to other chimps.

1:15:31And so, and you know, whether you whether you enjoy watching that aspect of chimpanzee behavior or not, there's another layer to what happens at Goyo. You know, loads of other chimpanzee sites, they have different things that they do. For instance, in Fungoli and Senegal, they use spears to hunt bush babies. You know, there's sort of, in every little, in every different chimpanzee site, There's like an associated unique behaviour or culture. Scientists wouldn't call it culture, but to, you know, a simple way of looking at it, there's different, like, sort of, things that they do that are separate and different to other chimpanzees.

1:16:20So you've observed chimpanzees that you spears? There are, yeah. I haven't observed any of them at all. It's not. I've never, I've never been there or filmed that, but yes, they... They use sticks. And they're sharp in these sticks? You know what, I don't know. And my partner, who's actually made a film about those chimps were quite chimpy in our household. And she'll be able to answer that better. But I know that they use spears, and I think they make spears. So I don't know whether they sharpen them, but they certainly strip them down so that they are like a spear. Wow. And they jab in holes for bush babies.

1:17:07What is a bush baby? It's like a little nocturnal primate. They're very cute. Oh boy. How conflicted is that? I mean, just watch them tear the monkeys apart with their hands. But having them use weapons and spear them. Yeah. Well I mean chimpanzees use tools since Jane got one of their used tools probably 5 ,000 to thousands of years we don't know but Jane good old discovered that many years ago to making not just using tools but making tools. Wow it's quite cool isn't that it's so cool. Interestingly the IngoGo chimps they do occasionally use a tool for something or other but But they're not like in West Africa, in the ivory coast, the chimpanzees use big rocks to crack nuts.

1:18:07And these sticks to fish bands. And same thing in Gombe and, like I say, in Fongoli, these spears for bush babies. The tool use is quite a big thing for chimps, generally, around Africa. But at GoGo they're not big tool users. And it's interesting, they maybe just never, you know, tools are a solution to a problem for the gyms, they identify that they need something and that tool will help get it. And it feels that in GoGo they actually they're not, they've not really had that need. and because of the fruit and because of prevalence monkeys. Maybe. It's such a rich environment loads a fruit. They've just, they've hammered the monkeys there.

1:18:58I remember John Matoni on the scientist saying, yeah, in Google they don't, you know, they don't use a lot of tools. They cooperate on really interesting levels. That's the thing that feels that is the identifying or the defining quality of the ENG OGO group. It's their sheer population size, they're just a massive group. And maybe as a function of that, there's levels of cooperative behavior there that they achieve those getting the things that they want through cooperation rather than tool use. When you're observing them hunting after monkeys, is there speculation that there's two things going on that they're hunting the monkeys for food, but also that they're preventing the monkeys from eating the fruit?

1:19:52Because they must be in competition with the monkeys for these prized resources, because of course the monkeys eat fruit as well. They do. I don't think that's a thing. But you might, I think the overriding things, they're just like hunting the monkeys. Because the thing is that that does it with other animals, where there was predators. I think they're coyotes. One of the reasons why they target cats is not just for food, but the cats are also predators. Yeah. You know what I don't know, and I don't think I've ever really asked that specifically to the scientists there, but I'm guessing that there's so much fruit around that those sorts of things might be driven by a scarcity of food, so therefore they take out your competitor for that food.

1:20:48And I think what they'd probably say was that it's such a rich environment and actually they just seem to love hunting monkeys. which is a shame, you know? And is it a shame? I don't know. I don't know. Well, it's hard, you know, I feel like I've been desansthetized to it a little bit. So, you know, obviously don't go, yes, I've got that monkey. Cool. But you accept it. And you, yeah, you don't, I think if you're following the Inkogo Chimps, you're sort of And like on some level, you're kind of with them really. And therefore, you know, you're not, like I said, you're not rooting for you, you don't really want them to do that, but you totally accept that they do.

1:21:36But, you know, in previous years, there used to be a lot more monkeys there. So the chimps are actually having a probably negative, a probably negative impact on the numbers of the monkeys. But is this just they have a very specific territory? Yeah, and this is just in their territory. Yeah, they're having a big impact So is there a prevalence of monkeys outside of their territory and do they ever go outside of their territory specifically to try to target monkeys? I Know that they go to areas of their territory or areas of the edge of their territory where they know the Ram or monkey still because yeah at one time monkeys were much more common within that territory.

1:22:24You know, they'd avoid the chimps or whatever, but there was a known groups of monkeys there, and now there are less. Because they're so effective at hunting them. Yeah. There's one of the images of this torso of a monkey, and they're just eating it, and it's so weird, because there's something that's just so uniquely disturbing. about watching a primary e to primary. I know. Yeah, see, it's like, I mean, it is what they do. It is, yeah, you unfortunately, if you follow Jimson a lot of Jim groups do that. In fact, everywhere where you find Jimson, monkeys in the same place, it happens, I think.

1:23:13Yeah, it is part of what they do. Do you find yourself rooting for the monkey to get away or do you find yourself rooting for the champ to get the monkey? I mean yeah, because you kind of want to capture the The actual successful hunt. I don't know not not necessarily actually no and I think the You know particularly the type of thing that we were doing it wasn't sort of you know We want that behavior You know we weren't going out to get behavior sequences We just want to film what happened and in and in a way they're attempting to hunt something and failing is also an interesting story. Does it happen often with the attempt to hunt monkeys and the monkeys get away?

1:23:56It does happen, not very often. Most of the time it's successful. Yes, I think so. And you do, having said I was a bit desensitised to it, I think the natural thing is you're sitting a much bigger animal go after a much smaller animal. So in all, instead everybody, there's an underdog there and there's, you know, you kinda, you are on some level thinking, can't you just get out to that skinny tree there? Look at how that skinny branch, they won't follow you there. You know, because that's the challenge on, the monkeys trying to get out right on the tips of the branching creature, you know, they won't hold the chimps white.

1:24:38So that's the safe bit, but then it's quite a precarious position because where do you go from there? You're just kind of delaying things really. Because you know exactly where you are. It's hard because those monkeys are their complex creatures as well. And I think if we were focusing on them a lot, we'd start to engage with them as individuals and it would feel different. And it's important to remember that. But, you know, the purpose of this series was we wanted to experience what it was like to be in an Go -Go chimpanzee, from their perspective, monkeys' all food. Did you observe noticeable patterns in how they hunt or strategies of how they hunt these monkeys?

1:25:31No, not really other than, like I said, there are sort of stages to it where, you know, it's not they'll just suddenly start hunting. They'll be a process where one of the gyms might hear some mungies or they might have on looking for them in a particular area and there's different stages where they kind of know this monkey's in the area and they're sort of feeling their way around and they maybe they've heard a call and they're sort of making their way gradually over there. And then when they identify an opportunity, there's a group of monkeys here and they're up in that tree. And then they can often be very quiet, a bit like being on patrol at that point where you know, they're just kind of getting as close as they can and in positions where they can be most effective without making any noise and without scaring anything off.

1:26:36And then generally it sort of takes one chip to just go for it and then the chase is on. So there's no element of surprise or anything. It's just, it's a rush. when they're trying to corner the monkey or monkeys in positions in the trees where they can get to them. One of the things that they observed in the David Addenborough capturing of this sort of behavior was that they will sort of ambush them. They will set up traps. Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people have different opinions about this and I think probably every hunt is different. And I think sometimes you might observe those things and then in your mind get a sense that, oh, this is how they must do it because during that hunt, he was over there and he was over there and they appeared to do that.

1:27:34In my experience, the didn't seem to be that sort of pattern of behavior. it was not, it was not as organized as that actually when it came to, to those parts of the hunt. Also it's a very difficult thing to observe and to film. So you really, having said, we're getting amazing details of their lives. But there are some activities that they do, like a hunt. I mean you're looking through windows in the canopy and just like, You see a chimp, leg it across there and over there and suddenly someone's got the monkey. And making sense of that, I think scientifically it's really hard. But from a filmmaking point of view, you're capturing moments and you can piece together what's happened there.

1:28:28But there's definitely things that you haven't seen that have gone on behind trees or leaves or so. So I think it's hard to kind of know exactly how they do it. Is there any concern while you're doing this that you're interfering in some sort of way or that you're going to upset them that you're getting in the way of the hunt or getting in the way of their natural behaviors? It's a constant consideration like how the worst thing we could possibly do is to go in there and try and observe the sort of real world of the Ingoge chimpanzees and then find ourselves having an impact on that being sort of participating in it.

1:29:11So that's no longer the real world of the chimpanzees, that's the world of the Ingego chimps when they're sort of distracted or impacted by human observance. So that, you know, that would be, that would just ruin the whole point of it. So it's a constant consideration. Weirdly, and it does, I don't really have an explanation for it and I've not really heard one that works for me that oddly, apart from sort of acknowledging you, they just don't seem to be impacted by your presence at all, they pretty much ignore you. And like Jim Pansey's is so like spatially aware, like they they live in this three -dimensional forest world where they can just go from tree to tree, horizontal, vertical.

1:30:08They're very aware of everything that's around them. You would assume in these chaotic moments that you might get in one's way or run into it, it never happens. And it's as if, but then again you never see a chimpanzee run into a tree either. You know they know where everything is. And for some bizarre reason, they're totally accepting of this sort of passive presence in the forest, these strange, bony peedal creatures that sort of follow and are close and sort of within, observing them. And it's not like they acknowledge you. They acknowledge you. They know you're there. They're not just like, like I said earlier, you're not spying on them.

1:30:51You're kind of part of it. But they're not interested in you. It's strange. Until you're there and you're in it, it's sort of an impossible thing to describe and it's a very difficult thing to understand until you're actually right there. And I think when something's kicking off and there's a lot of excitement and chaos within the group, if you haven't experienced that before, it's intimidating and you can't quite believe that you're not somehow going to get swept up in it, but you don't at all. And there's been decades of this happening at Go Go where they accept this sort of passive presence in the forest.

1:31:40I mean, it must be so weird. you're there when they get up, you know, and you follow them around all day and you know, when they take a shit, when they're making friends with somebody, when they're doing anything that they're doing, you know, and you're just, you're there. But they, they appear not to mind at all and it doesn't appear to impact their behaviour at all. That's so fascinating. How close do they get to the photographers, the humans, the camera people? So, you know, there are strict rules that can go go and anyway, working with chimpanzees, because we're so similar, they're susceptible and vulnerable to sort of human infections.

1:32:31So even things that don't really bother us, like if we're a cough or a cold, that'll be quite dangerous to transmit to. Was this during COVID, did you film all this? You know, we started just after lockdown, but we had sort of, we were prepared to do it before COVID kicked in, and then COVID happened in the world shut down. And then we got out there as soon as we could, afterwards when things were starting to open up, you know, because Uganda wouldn't let me fight in for a long time, but as soon as they did, we went out there, And we had to be tested regularly for COVID, people worried about what would happen if a chimpanzee got COVID.

1:33:12Naturally, very worried. But actually, in place already, there was, you have to wear masks, you can't go closer than seven meters. You have, if you're not feeling well or anything like that, you mustn't go and see the chimps. And that's important because a common goal can be lethal to to chips. So for that reason you have to stay seven metres away from them in the forest. That's not much. It's not. I mean they say seven metres is an absolute bare minimum. I think it's about 10 meters. And that's just 20 feet. Yes, not a lot. So how far is that? Nothing that's across this room. Yeah, so it's about the length of this room is about the distance you should be.

1:34:13And you make concerted effort to make sure that's the case. However, like I said, the chimps don't know that rule. So you can do whatever you can to maintain that distance and if they come a little closer or come to sit down within that 7m you move back slowly. But it's not advisable to jump out of the way or you take your opportunity and you slowly get that distance between you back. back. But yeah, it doesn't feel like a lot at all, particularly if there are chimps in every direction. And because the GoGo group is so big, it can be a lot. You can be in the middle of quite an amazing thing. And like I said, you know, I mean, I know, you know, the excitement, or some of the most dramatic parts of chimpanzee life in GoGo, you know, is the patrolling and a lot of the slightly more aggressive elements.

1:35:16But most of the chimps days spent doing things that are just really enjoyable to be around. When they're watching chimps groom is one of the most relaxing, I mean it looks so relaxing. It has quite a So it's all about effect on you. If you're in amongst a group of chimps and they're all sort of gently grooming each other, you feel very sleepy, it's quite odd, just watching it. It just looks so, you know, it's very gentle. You know, these huge males who are capable of all sort of things very tenderly sort of grooming each other or younger members of the group or the females and like it really, it looks so gentle.

1:36:07They're just going, finally going through each of the hairs, they're just really checking with anything that worth coming out. And they often fall asleep or look very relaxed. And those moments are kind of amazing, actually, because you sort of, they really make you relaxed. And then there's a few kids will be playing around, sort of, you know, they're not interested in long grooming sessions. So they're just tumbling around in the trees and things. And that's the majority of chimp life, actually. I'm also interesting about them because it's such a far cry and such huge difference between the more aggressive side of chimpanzees.

1:36:48But yeah, that's what makes them so fascinating. That situation, they can be like that in the morning and you can feel like you've just stumbled into this sort of paradise situation, everything's so delicate and it's so tender and playful, but then by, you know, come the afternoon, you know, they've got a job to do at the border and it's completely different atmosphere and it's tense and same thing. Your sort of heart rate is raised and, you know, your state is determined a lot by what the chimps are doing. The grooming aspect of their relationships is very unusual. It's very unique and very fascinating to watch because they sit there and they allow each other to do this, but there's also the social hierarchy aspect of it.

1:37:42Are they looking for bugs? What are they looking for? They are, yeah. So there's like a, there is a real practical function that they're looking for text, like, or other sort of like external parasites. I don't know what the other things are, but there were, you know, the big hairy creatures and then the forest things get stuck in there and text in particular and we, you know, we as humans going through the forest, you've got to be really careful with ticks as well. So yeah, they are looking for specific things, but then if you watch what they're doing and how they do it, and particularly with our real sort of close -up lenses, you can see in great detail, you know, you can see the hairs parting and exactly what they're going for.

1:38:34I don't know, it feels like, yes, that's an important part of it, but actually the purpose, they're kind of stroking each other. And how long you do it for, and then when you turn around and do it back, all those things feel like they're much greater social value than so. You know, there's partly a cleaning each other, keeping each other healthy. That's definitely important. And I think, you know, they have to do it for that reason. But there's so many other layers to that, the relationship building and the... Yeah. So when you're interacting with these chimps as they're ever a moment where the chimp tries to engage with the humans?

1:39:24No, but you know, there are occasionally individuals, like I say, they're all individuals. So saying anything about the chimps do this or they don't do that, you know, we're really generalizing. There are occasionally individual chimps who, even if they're not threat to you, they are showing a level of interest that is different to others. And there's a chimpo called Rich Bergle, the chimpo, who's one of our of our local characters in the West. And he's always been very comfortable in the air, cause usually the chimps, like they have that a little bit of, like it's a tiny bit of residual fear of humans.

1:40:15And I think that's what makes them quite comfortable of that distance as well. They're like, they're okay if you come there, but they actually don't want to be any closer. that they, that seven to ten meter rule, suits them to, generally. Well, that's a comfortable distance, but, you know, I don't want you, that says if the chimps are like, they don't really want you coming seeing next to them, that's not okay. So, and I don't know whether that's just like what they like or whether they used to it because over the years that that is the distance that the scientists have kept or whatever, but you do get some chimps that decide to come closer.

1:40:57Yeah, in Rich Bergl is one of those chimps. He orphaned at a young age very well, habituated, no fear of humans whatsoever. However, he's never made contact, but I think everybody who works with him would say, he's the one that will come and sit a little closer and will walk towards you and then at the very last minute, via a rough one, he's just curious in a way that the others aren't. Now, when the chimps are on patrol, that's a uniquely intense and aggressive moment, and it's so wild to watch, to see them, these hulking chimpanzees move through the forest in coordination. When you're there with that and you're very close to these violent encounters with the other chimps, is there any concern there that you could get caught up in this sort of violent frenzy and maybe being danger of being attacked or you know the the risen actually in that that I mean the what let me let me rephrase that I would say on a personal level of course right you know you come you hear about these things happening you know it's a possibility will be there when it happens when it's filmed so we ask exactly the same question so So this is, you know, I've been through the exact same process as you are now and have this conversation with the scientists like, oh, are we going to be safe?

1:42:38You know, is it safe for us to where should we be or where should we not be if this happens when we're there? So, totally, we're exactly the same questions and we just didn't know and we were reassured by the scientists, you know, you'll be amazed. Like, if you see those things, they will happen but they will ignore you. And their only warning was that definitely don't get too close, you know, because the level of excitement around the chimps during these encounters, you know, if there's ever a time when they could accidentally come very close to you or suddenly see you and get a bit of a fright, you know, they wouldn't want to take that sort of a risk with us.

1:43:26So they did, they did, we were warned, you know, keep a respectful distance from that. But amazingly, and there's a little behind the scenes clip that we've sort of released on YouTube now, and you can see that during the biggest encounter that we filmed, the camera people were sort of like in it and around it and sort of at one stage sort of like accidentally between the two groups of the sort of standing off and you know that the sit in way I mean the chimps move so fast and they organize, reorganize, separate or whatever so you can try and be in the perfect position but then that perfect position could quickly become where you don't want to be because of where the chimps have gone so through no fault of their own you know there's the times when they're sort of, they're in there sort of, it's a bit like being a war reporter or something.

1:44:31But weirdly, you know, they're so focused on what it is they're doing and have no interest in sort of involving or redirecting their aggression to the humans at all. I think, I think, you know, because of, you know, there are some quite high profile and sort of like tragic sort of human -chimp interactions. On the remaining... In in Gogo? No, no. I mean sort of like things that happened at zoos or whatever. And I think that it, I think it does give a sort of an unusual impression of what gyms like in the wild, they have all that sort of capability. And more so, you know, you can go go to Jim's, there's so many of them.

1:45:24And they don't are engaged in these sort of violent competitions with other groups. That's a very real thing. And, and, you know, and it can get serious. But their relationship with people is just completely different to a relationship Yeah, chimps might have with people in captivity or if they've been kept as pets or something.

1:45:53Yeah, it's just, it's not, I totally get it in those exactly the sort of things I wanted to know before I stepped in and go, go, go. Well, I mean, you know, we're, for sure. You need to know. But amazingly, when you've been there around it, and even once you've just been on a single patrol with the match and they're exhilarating. When you go on patrol with Inkogachim, it's amazing. They're taking you on a journey to the edge of that border and they're fully committed and they're coordinated and we don't seem to care that you're following. And they're allowing you to sort of be there. That's amazing.

1:46:31Yeah, it's an incredible experience actually. It's really adrenaline. Yeah, there they are. Look at that. This was my favorite part. Just watching them move coordination and just wondering like what how do they know like what are they doing? It also seems like they're gesturing in some ways like that, chimp with the one hand. So this is the behind the scenes, but yeah, exactly. You know, gestures quite often that in an hourful or hands all over each other. That that's undeniable. Reassuring gestures. They know they're in this like tense situation. and then nervous. I think that you can read into that, that they're sort of telling each other that like, I'm with you, I'm with you, I'm here.

1:47:16That physical contact is just, you know, it's just reassuring each other that we're in this together. It's you and me. And when violence does break out, what is that experience like? I mean, when you're seeing I think Champon Champ of Islands from several feet away. That has to be wild. I think, like I said, we, I mean, I don't really want to give away any spoilers for the series because some of these things are sort of like major plot points in the series. I know what you're saying. I appreciate your artistic sentiment. It doesn't matter. It's so good. It's so good that even if you say what happens, people get to see it.

1:48:01It's so good. Yeah, I mean, and I would say that like I said, I often personally, well, I wasn't there for many of the things that happened. But I was some and I have been there previously and go go, we're sitting things about. It's hard, I think that is chim -pon, chim -violence is a lot harder to watch watch, um, than the Chimp on Monkey violence for me personally. And whether I'm there, myself or whether I'm seeing it recorded later on, I think there's a, there's kind of a sadness to that, um, personally. Um, quite often it's because in truth, the, it gets more serious if the Chimp's outnumber them significantly.

1:48:55So when, when Chimp's are kind of equal sized groups when they come into contact, they're usually less violent situations. Because there's too much danger. It's just too much danger, too much at stake, it's kind of a bit provaro. They run at each other a few times, but if there's enough jumps on either side, you can pretty much know that in this immediate situation no one's going to get badly hurt. it. They get badly hit when they're outnumbered and obviously that on a human level, just no one like seeing that sort of thing. Yeah. There's just, yeah, it's just horrible. Unfortunately, we've all sort of seen that person in your clips of that in humans and it's the most uncomfortable, horrible stuff, it really makes you horrible.

1:49:54So yeah, all of that stuff is very hard to watch. Sorry. Well, now I'll say even, interestingly, I say, the scientists can go go, we know them really well now and we've worked with them for a long time. So we share things and they share stories that on a more personal level with us. But they are obviously better than we or a view would be detaching themselves. You know, this is just what happens there to observe and try and understand. It's not an emotional thing. But even they who have been there for many years, and I think particularly because they've been there for many years, sometimes you see an active violence on a on a chimp that you've known and been following around for ages.

1:50:45They may not care about you, but you really care about them. And it's sad. Yeah, it's very sad. During the filming, at least on the show, there's one instance of chimpanzees killing another chimp. Was there more of that? You're playing the list of the internet. I'm not. I'm not. Okay. You think it's a spoiler, but I'm telling you, It's so comfortable. Fascinating and so good. Yeah, I don't. Okay, good. No, no, that's fine. I don't want to hear it. I know it's you for me. I know, I know. Does it really matter? It doesn't matter. It's so good. It doesn't matter. Okay, yes. Okay, so that happens.

1:51:28Was it only one time while you were there?

1:51:33Wow. Yes. No. Well, there's another thing in the series we're not gonna talk about. Okay. Like, because that really is a spoiler, but yes, couple of occasions. Whilst we were there. And that is, how, I mean, is it conflicted? Do you almost have this feeling that you want to intervene and protect the champ? I think everybody who's been around to those feelings, you wish it wouldn't happen. You don't want this to conclude in the way that you think it might. But again, I totally understand why you're asking, but I think once you've been around them enough and you have to have this commitment to and it's part of the same point that you're asking earlier about that impact on their lives.

1:52:38You want zero impact on their lives or minimal, right? You don't want any negative impact. You actually can't make too much of a positive impact either. You know also it just wouldn't be practical. It's not safe, you know, what could you do, shout and make an oys and try and disturb them just enough for a moment the the gym could get away and you know Possibly, but I think that it wouldn't be You know, it wouldn't be ethical right to do it. These are It is natural behavior. I mean, that's my Take on it from what I've seen and go go. This is part of their natural behaviour. They are competitive and their territorial.

1:53:33And those, you know, those behaviours have served them well in the past. So you can't, as much as it's, from a human observer point of view, that same thing, taking that same situation out, something you observed in the street, all those natural sort of tendency desires to intervene and stop something, you know, they're there for good reason. But you know, this is the entire sort of the entire scientific project, our commitment as filmmakers to observe but not into fear. I mean, that's that's all part of the same thing. You couldn't be stepped out of that role in any circumstance. You've kind of, you've crossed a line in a really odd way.

1:54:22But, so it ended in a way that sort of helps with what you're feeling when you see or observe those things because, well you know there's absolutely nothing you can do about this. Right, I mean, of course ethically you really can intervene. But it's still sort of, I mean what an amazing experience for you as a human being to have gone through this. It's just such a rare, rare insight into these animals and these incredible, unique creatures and their behavior. It's just, you must feel so fortunate just to have experienced just as a human being, just as a life experience to take that in. I really do.

1:55:05Yeah, I really do. I mean, this, you know, I've been very lucky in lots of bits of my job that I've done over the years. I think that it's a great job. it's very hard work, a lot harder than probably what people appreciate and book extremely lucky on loads of things. I do feel within Gogo Chimbs in particular, like you say, as a human being, from an existential sort of point of view, there's like, so I'm so fortunate and not really, not many people get to see that and they are our closest relatives and they are fascinating because of the connections we have with them. They're also fascinating because they're different and they're all individuals and it's a chance to just you kind of feel apart of something.

1:55:57The, has, you know, brought that important knowledge and information to people. Yeah, so I feel personally very fortunate. How do you top that?

1:56:14I've never done it. You always trying to top your work, because I mean, what you've done is so extraordinary. I watched it at the end of it. I was like, how do you beat that? You know, I mean, you are always trying to make something better than you did before. Or a personal and professional level. you want, you know, you want to do really cool stuff that people like and so yeah I'm always thinking about what could be you know, what could move things on. I think making a series about the Ingoge chimpanzee is quite hard because they feel that they aren't for all the reason we just said, they are our closest relatives.

1:57:00They are the biggest group in terms of sort of story and character, which I think is probably, you know, I mean, you're a chimp now and you love like all bits of it. You're fascinated on levels that a lot of people maybe don't appreciate. So I think you get the whole whole thing. But I think what potentially, what the broader audience is sort of really responding to is the characters and the stories. You know, there are the real chimpanzee characters that you can follow through the whole series. And that is hard, certainly harder to do with other animal species. You know, there's so much going on there in terms of individual variation and you know, chimps, psychology.

1:57:54You know, you're always just wondering why they thinking, what are they going to do? What's he making of that? What does she want now? You know, they invite that level of intrigue, that depth and of depth of character, the genuinely different characters, who all kind of want quite different things. And that as a sort of storyteller in the natural world, this quite a unique opportunity. So yeah, I don't know actually, I'll just rest for a while. Do you have another project lined up? I mean, we finished working on Chimpen, but quite a long time ago. So we spent over well about a year or something, we finished the edit.

1:58:41So I'm working on other stuff already. I can't I can't I would imagine if I was Netflix if I was one of the CEOs I would be in immediate conversation with you about season two. Well I think I think you're very wise and I mean I think we have we have talked about it with the the commissioners that are Edelsen and she loves the series and was behind it from day one. Shout out to Sarah. Yeah, shout out to Sarah. And she, we've talked about it. We talked about it even before we started actually because I think, you know, she could see the potential, actually, that, you know, this isn't a, this is a, you know, it's a window of time into the Ingo -Go -Grip, but they don't stop having interesting stories just because we stop filming them.

1:59:36So we sort of knew there was that potential and there is a kind of a conversation that's sort of bubbling away. But I think waiting, I think it is the sensible thing to wait, let this series have its impact, whatever that will be. I like to say I personally love to do it, and I think the whole team would be like, we can't stop now, can we? Because it's still happening. and go -go. That's okay, the story for the series is finished, but the Ingo -go story continues, and we've linked so much and all that. At the same time, there is an argument for saying, it feels quite definitive, and we would worry about what we don't want to do is just...

2:00:26Rehash the same sort of narrative. Yeah. Yeah. We wouldn't be the same thing, because all the get older and new characters want different things and you know in that story happened in that time so everything that happened there won't happen again but still the some you know the experience of watching season one is is partly or following that story but you're also being introduced to the Ingoge chimps and like you know you're learning about what they do and how they do it, how they relate to each other. So there's a lot of that experience, which if you did a season two, you, in a way, it would be great because you would jump straight into a story and not have to have as much exposition about the groups, but yeah, don't I?

2:01:20Do you think it should be another one? Yes, okay. Yeah, without that, I would watch it. Is when an alpha controls the group, how long generally is there rain? And what happens to them when they get pushed out? So that's interestingly, it's different in different gym groups across Africa, but But at Gogo, I think like six, seven years is the average like good tenure. The Rabin chimps have taken the alpha position, but have not done it very well and have been out after a year. There's one chimped there, Bartok, who was in charge for ten years, but he was very successful bestful alpha and very politically astute.

2:02:12So I think the average at GoGo is sort of six or seven years.

2:02:19Yeah, that's quite a long time. It's fascinating because it's similar to presidential rains. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it isn't just that. I wonder, you know, it's like the peak of their prime and their control. So they have a term limit. But it is interesting because regardless of age as well. So it doesn't really feel like, yeah, there isn't, there isn't like, at and go go, there's an average sort of expectancy of authorship. And I think that's, yeah, six or seven years. And that's why we knew that Jackson, that start of when we were filming, we knew that he was entering a period where things could get tricky for him because he'd been in charge for about six years.

2:03:09And it is very interesting that that tends to be the term. And the longer the study goes on for, the more interesting those things become because I think in the early days when they were first observing the chimps, they were like, okay, well he was in charge for three years, he was in charge for seven. And you know, there didn't seem to be any pattern, so it was all sort of, well, you're just at the top until someone knocks you off. But it does seem interesting that but they don't see them lasting that much longer. They expect them not to stay there for much longer. Is there any evidence that they learn from the champs that are successful and they mimic this sort of political behavior and social awareness of keeping everybody happy and governing and you know, and a sort of an effective, sort of harmonious way?

2:04:06Whether they see other chimps doing well through that, I don't know. I think that's a good question. I don't know the answer to that actually. I mean, there's certainly, there's leaders in, And they adopt different strategies individually and definitely the ones that are better at managing their political relationships and their allies, they stay in power longer and they have an easier time of it. Like Bartok, I mean these are chimps that passed long before this series but you would be interested in Bartok. It's a small guy. I mean, always looked big when he was alpha because they tend to sort of, they just hold themselves differently.

2:04:59So they puff the hair out. It's called Pylewerect when they stickle their hair goes on and it literally gives them a different silhouette, a different body shape. And so when you are alpha, you tend to look bigger anyway. But even when he was like that, he didn't look as big as the other chimps. He was a relatively small chimp, but he was the longest serving alpha they've ever had it in Go -Go. So he was the most successful leader there and it was right at a time when Go -Go was still one massive group. So he probably was leader at the time when the group was biggest for the longest period and he was also the smallest guy they've ever had in charge.

2:05:40And they put all that down to, he was extremely good at keeping his relationships ships going with all the other big males. So all the big guys that could threaten him, he was grooming them all the time, keeping them happy. Wow. And what happens to them when they get overthrown? They just assume a lesser position? They do. I mean, they, they, they, they tend to, everything is okay after that. Like they, They might get beaten up badly in the overthrow. They might get a bit injured there, but it's never been lethal, and go -go. Whereas at other sites, I've heard the alphas have been killed, and they've been killed in the transfer of power.

2:06:33That's never interestingly, that's never happened in go -go. They, you know, the incoming, could well be a big fight and some minor injuries, but then that's it. And there's a new dominant hierarchy established. And as long as the outgoing alpha is submitting to the incoming one in the formal way, the pant grant, whenever it comes by, then that's just okay we've sorted this out. We now know like he's on top and the other chimps know and but what happens then is they they they can sometimes retain a sort of high position in the hierarchy like Miles for instance who's Jackson's giant friend. He was Alfa for quite a brief period and then I can't remember who was after and then I think could have been Jackson and actually you took it off miles, miles remained high up there and number two and number three spot.

2:07:40He's always remained powerful. But some of them, you know, Bartok, I think just after he left the alpha position, he just began the trajectory down the hierarchy and just retired. He was out of it. So they're not competing anymore. I'm all done. They just accept a new position. Yeah, and they just, they really drop down all the way down the hierarchy. They're no longer competing in that, the higher levels of the dominance hierarchy. They retire from that. Are you aware of Robert Sapolsky's work with baboons? No. Sapolsky spent a lot of time embedded with baboons and one of the things that he observed that's incredibly unusual is there was a group of baboons that was eating food that was in garbage that was from, I believe it was a resort.

2:08:33And these particularly ruthless alphas who would have first accessed all this kind of food, they got poisoned because they ate this bad food and they wound up dying and it completely changed the way they behave with each other. The ruthless alphas died and all of a sudden it became this sort of utopian civilization amongst baboons where they didn't exhibit any of that barbaric behavior. And they were much more kind to each other. That, I didn't know. That is fascinating. And that just shows the outsized impact. Some individuals can have on the overall culture of a group. Much like humans. Yeah.

2:09:18Yeah. And I think the same thing has happened at Angogo doing lots of different levels. Like the central group ran by Jackson, there's a lot of competition, there's not as much play. It's all quite a harsh existence. And then the Western group who are much smaller in number, they spend much more time playing and socializing And the females in that group have a nicer time, they get beaten up a lot less often. And it doesn't sound like a very nice thing, it was a positive thing, oh, and the females don't get beaten up as much, like that's a good thing. Unfortunately, in chimpanzee society, that just does happen, you know?

2:10:07And it's not just, I mean, chimps beat each other up, it's a bit of life and the females get a part of that as well. but interestingly females seem to love being in the West and there's quite a lot of incoming feelings into the Western group, incoming incoming females into the Western group. So they've got a small number of males but a huge number of females and females have left the central group and gone to the West and they play a lot. Now how did they make transitions from one to the other? Like if there's a the West group like how does another chimpanzee become embedded in that group? Well it only it couldn't as a male chimpanzee you can't do that.

2:10:59No they're just any male chimpanzee sort of going over to the other side would just be met with extreme hostility. Females, it's part of the sort of natural cycle. When females reach sexual maturity, they leave the group where they were born. And it's to, you know, lots of animals do that. Actually, to encourage genetic diversity? Yeah, exactly. So same, you see that in quite a lot of different animal species. And they do that, you know, 10, 11, whatever, maybe a few years later, but at some point around that period they will make that, make that change. And they arrive at a completely different group.

2:11:53They travel across the forest and they sort of hang around on the edges of that new group and just gradually get accepted in, but you know chimpanzee communities accept females arriving from other groups. Do other females challenge that? They do, they generally get a very hard time when they first come to the group actually. Partly because the males are all very interested and you know this is it's a purely positive thing for of new female to arrive at the group, but the females that are there already will often be quite hostile to that new female. For quite a long period of time, it's I think, you know, during our series, our filming period, one of the females that we knew well left the group where she was and you sort of, you worry about them because it's inevitable that they're going from a place where they know everybody and they're treated relatively well and you know it's their sort of family and social group and then they're travelling across to a group where everybody is sort of hostile, but the local females in particular.

2:13:19And that might last a while as well. So for the first couple of years, even it could be, yeah, it could be, you know, quite a nervous, anxious existence. You're very... But yet they're compelled to do it. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Now, when they do this, do they ever go back and forth? Not lying, no off, no. So they quit that group, they join another group, and that's where they stay? Yes. Wow. Yeah, as far as I know, yeah. That's it. That's the new life. The new group. But the interesting thing now in GoGo, because the former giant in GoGo group is now central group and western group. So in a way this is going to make transferring as an adolescent female a much easier thing to do because they're going to be trying some of them will transfer from central group to the western group where they know everybody actually because until a few years ago they were part of the same group.

2:14:25So that that's different to before. So when the females from the central group go to the western group they know people already or they know excuse me they know chimpanzees already they'll know some of them yeah I mean it's been a it's been a few years how many it was 2018 oh fairytale when when they finally really split and what was the cause of the split so I mean a number of different things that kind of go back quite a few years I mean the sheer size of the group, you know, and never been documented anywhere. The Engoge, the numbers of chimpanzees in the Engoge, the original Engoge group are more than twice the size of the next biggest group.

2:15:16So it was a bit of a mystery how they were holding together anyway and also whether they would hold together forever. can they really just keep on growing and maintaining staying as one group? Bearing in mind, there's still the same sort of social structure. So you still have a single alpha male, but the group is just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Hmm. Now, even back when I was there a few, in like 2015, previously. So this was before they split, but at that point, I remember Kevin Langer grab, but one of the scientists that was there at the time. He was explaining that actually the Ingoge community is a bit different.

2:16:08Like they are one group, but they have these little subgroups, like neighborhoods within the territory. And so they were already describing some of these neighborhoods as the easterners and the westerners and stuff. They were part of the same group and the males would you know patrol the territory together. They're on the same team but they hung out in different areas and and it was quite you know they'd really have an association with that area that was much stronger and they did think that was the beginning of sort of okay well we're sort of spending less time with them when we see them we'll groom and it'll be fine but we're gradually spending less time with each other and that was sort of the beginning I think of of these sort of divisions and then I don't know big big big fights, particularly between Jackson and the other, the what became the leading Western males.

2:17:15Yeah, big, big, big fights there, the, I think, contributed to this sort of growing divide. And then there just came a point in 2018 where the scientists were saying, you You know what they're the own they're properly separate groups now This is it you know do any of the females from the Western group go to the central group when they reach sexual maturity I don't think that's happened yet But I think they will expect I mean this is all this is all new because 2018 yeah, I mean this is the the whole thing about Now this series, which I feel like, you know, asking me where I felt lucky, I mean, I'm very lucky to spend time with the Ingoge chimps, but at this period is fascinating because, you know, brilliant for filming and the potential for interesting story going on fold was right there from the start.

2:18:19But it's also, it's scientifically totes, it's unknown territory. And the, you know, we worked with them. I keep name checking people with some reminding me the different roles that they sort of played. John Matani, who's one of the main scientists there, he was really the one who sort of highlighted when this happened sort of how unique this was going to be. And I remember thinking, oh this is amazing, God what, this new thing has happened at Go Go. But he was saying, well look, of course it is fascinating, it's a fascinating thing to happen. But now we have two groups that are both completely habituated to human presence and their rivals and so as scientists we can be there and study what happens between these two groups and his filmmakers to your access to this sort of being on this the two different sides of this chimpanzee rivalry and with equal access.

2:19:30Now that had never happened before because usually chimpanzee groups, groups, the habituated group, the ones that scientists have got used to human presence, you can study them and film them very closely, but the wild chimp, the truly wild, not used to people ones, you can't get close to them as a scientist or as a filmmaker. You know they're out there, you can hear them, but you can't get close to them. So the split it presented this fascinating situation scientifically, but also this really unique filming opportunity. We can literally be embedded in these two different groups and nobody knows what's going to happen over the next year or two.

2:20:17But we know it's going to be interesting and we know there's sort of, there's a new situation here that, that, yeah, anything could happen. That sounds like a pitch for season two to me. It does.

2:20:35Because there's so much that could happen. Yeah. The risk, and honestly, yeah, it does sound like I want a pitch for season two. It is fascinating what's happening there at the minute. you would find that personally fascinating. Oh, I'm sure. I do. I mean, just watching it, I find it personally fascinating. Listen, I just think you did a fantastic job and you should be very proud of it. And it's as a person who is very fortunate enough to be alive when this is airing on Netflix. It's really groundbreaking stuff. And I mean, until I understood, until I knew the, I mean, we kind of watched some of the behind the scenes footage, but I had no idea how long it took to get these chimps accustomed to the scientists and the camera people being there.

2:21:26It's just so unique. Yeah, that's, you can't underestimate that. I know it sounds like I'm sort of trying to check credit with them for it, but you just cannot underestimate how valuable that is. like that's true of it almost any well so vast majority of cool things you see captured on film with animals is okay the film crew did a great job but usually that was because there were years and years and years of sort of scientific work beforehand that even just enabled you to get in a position where you could see it but also to understand it what what was happening. And it's so you feel it with the Ingoge chimps, we just felt it from beginning you feel it every day.

2:22:16Like all the things that you're wondering about, things that amaze to me at the start. Like those are possible because of a like decades of work and decades of tracking and following these chimpanzees in the most responsible way as well. So this what would be a sort of fragile relationship between humans are closest to all the things that's amazing about it because of what they did over over the decades there and everything that we knew about every one of those chimps were able to study their back before even went out. We could study their back stories like for over 200 chimps detailed information about every chimp when they were born, who their relationships were with certain events in their lives, any trauma that they'd had, who they liked, who they didn't like, we got a proper sense of who each individual chimp was, and all that, you know, that's just, that's all the scientists providing that.

2:23:20So, yeah, I'm not just giving them a shout because I feel like they just, it's just, if you're actually interesting understanding how that works like that we slid in on the back of that that is how this sort of project works with the access to the chimpanzees but it actually the access to the scientific project and the Ugandan field track as you do it and they've just you know they've done it for 30 years and then you know fortunately they said to us something really interesting happening and they supported us doing it. Well, I mean so fortunate and so unique and I remember the first time seeing the very first episode just blown away.

2:24:12Like how how did they do this? How did they get so close? I mean it's like are they using drones? I was like, did they have camera traps everywhere? Like, how are they doing this? It's just so incredible and just so fascinating, so unique and congratulations. That means a lot. Thanks very much. Oh, my pleasure. And thank you very much for being here. I really, really appreciate it. And can't recommend it enough. Chimpyar, Empire, Chimpympires on Netflix right now. There's four parts. They're all amazing. You guys nailed it. It's incredible. And I really, really hope. Thanks so much. Really dope, yeah.

2:24:48I really appreciate it. And thanks for having me. My pleasure, my pleasure. Do you have social media you wanna tell people about? I don't really, no. No, I'm not big on social media. Good for you. Good for you.

2:25:03Congratulations, I'm not really. I'll just give my personal email. Don't do that, don't do that. Unless, I mean there's something that someone can contribute. No, I don't have any personal social media presence whatsoever, but there's I mean there is actually Like the the the in go -go chimpanzee project have a Facebook page and and they sort of Yeah, and they're very good. They kind of They get the things that the people from from the public will be interested in they post things about what's happening I'm turning up, I'll turn up and go go. So people who are genuinely interested in what's happening with the Ingoge gyms, there's a Facebook page.

2:25:46Okay, so what's up? Thank you very much. Really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Cheers. Bye everybody.