#2023 - Brian Keating

25:05This would be your microwave constellations. In other words, if you could see these are unchanging fixed patterns on the sky that are only visible to microwave instruments. This satellite made this image running across here, this orange band around it is the Milky Way but as seen in microwaves. So you just saw it as seen in optical. So the Milky Way emits at all frequencies. You can't get rid of it because we're inside the galaxy. So this as I say, this is as if God is like looking down. We're actually at the center of this ball here and we're looking out of that galaxy, out towards the galaxy.

25:39But we're on one of the arms of the spiral galaxy. Yeah, there's one of the gloves and there's a little telescope. Someone's horning in my racket there, little planet factory. Watch yourself. Watch yourself. I got the little telescopes in the microwave but beach ball. So that's what the galaxy looks like and what is all that schmutz, what is all that blue stuff? I don't see that when you're in monochrome. That is dust. That's dust in the Milky Way galaxy. Could that back up please? Yeah. So actually if you go back Jamie to the Alma picture that you showed just a second ago, the Incas were really fascinating culture and astronomically speaking.

26:18We look at the stars. Like I don't know how many constellations you can recognize. But the Incas, they didn't use our constellations obviously. They didn't like say the big dip. Right. But they instead focused on those dark blotches. Those dark blotches are not regions representing the absence of stars. Those dark blotches are obscured. There are billions of stars there, but they're obscured by clouds of dust, basically like smoke, particles of carbon, of silicon, metals. I'm going to show you in just a bit. They pollute and they obscure and make opaque the stars behind them. So the Incas could see this much more clear.

27:02We can't see these from where we are in the northern hemisphere, but the Incas could see it. So they made their constellations shapes that they saw in those dark dusty globules. So if you were born back then, let's say you just had your birthday, right? So you were born back then August 11th? 11th? Yeah. So you're born in August. I forget what's your what's your sign? Libre? Leo. Leo. So instead of being a Leo, they would represent you by what constellation, what dust blob there was, and they had names for it. There was a toad. There was a llama. My favorite one, Joe, there was a constellation called the umbilical cord of the llama.

27:42Whoa. Can you imagine going to a bar to the mother ship? Hey, baby, what's your sign? Um, um, um, um, umbilicus of the llama. You know what you're ridiculous, right? But that's what they saw. Wow. And that we, we can't see that today, not because of light pollution, but we can't see all the other things because of light pollution. But yeah, those two little smudges on the left, those are galaxies or dwarf galaxies that are bound to the dark matter and the gravitational pull of the Milky Way. They're actually satellite galaxies. They're separate from the Milky Way. And how many stars are in those galaxies?

28:14A couple billion. We have a hundred billion at least. Like, you know what's insane is the density of stars. That was one of the things that was so overwhelming because I always knew there was a lot of stars, but just the density that it's as much star as it is black when you look at the sky. It's like you're seeing a different, a different perspective, completely different perspective. It felt like I was in the, the cockpit of a massive spaceship, like looking at it through glass. And when you go up there, if you're in, you probably weren't on oxygen because of the around a tour or something like that.

28:47Yeah. If you go up a little bit higher, so I'm a pilot. I fly little planes around because I'm in California. But if you go above the altitude that you were at, it's legally required that you were oxygen. Or you have an oxygen provider, you're a pressurized plane or whatever. So you would wear a cannula if you were in like a little sesson or something like that. And you're fluted and they can get up to that altitude easily. But if you don't have a oxygen on and you go up there next time you go up there, you look up, you close your eyes for a second, you hold your breath, you know, I'm not suggesting this, you know, it's not me telling you to do this.

29:20But if you do it, you will see, you'll see apparitions of the stars. It will make you feel like you're tripping. So I'm told I've never tripped. So because you're holding your breath, because you're oxygen deprived, the intensity of starlight and the intense and the contrast as you just said between the blackness and the lightness and the points of light, it will be essentially like you're basically out of your senses. You won't be able to process it. I wonder if we're going to get to a point with technology that we figure out how to use some sort of diffuse lighting everywhere where we minimize light pollution at least minimise it to the point where you do see stars.

29:59Yeah. Yeah. I think it really is a bad thing for us. I think it's akin to people not getting sunlight in the winter. They kind of, they don't do well because they don't get vitamin D. Yeah. I think there's something psychological. Look, there's a medicine to the awe -inspiring cosmos. So funny. He says like that. This episode is brought to you by Buffalo Trace Distillery. Actually have some Buffalo Trace cigars here. They just sent me. One of the world's most award -winning distilleries that's been making whiskey the same way for more than 200 years made as a tribute to the rugged free spirited pioneers who blaze their own trail to new frontiers.

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31:29Distilled, aged, and bottled by Buffalo Trace distillery, 90 proof, Franklin County, Kentucky, Buffalo Trace, American, family -owned, independent, and perfectly untamed. I haven't met Andrew Heberman. He used to be a professor at UC San Diego where I am. He's the best. He's such an amazing contributor. His whole stick is get out in the morning, see the morning sunlight. What I want to talk to him about, because he's an expert in the eye and the physiology of the eye as well as all the other stuff that he does on his laboratory. I want to ask him about astronomical things. We see that night sky.

32:09What will it mean to our physiology and to our psychology to have that rub from a whole ja... We're doing an experiment. Nobody knows what will happen. As you said, what will happen? Will it be like sitting as the new smoking or sitting as a new crack, or I don't know what it is. But that's the point. What will it mean? There's something deeply into the human mind. The reasons the constellations have names is because there was no Netflix. There was no Netflix 2000 years ago. So people identified things and they could navigate. I can sort of navigate by... I know the constellations incredibly. Which doesn't sound so big a deal as an astronomer.

32:46Most astronomers don't really care. They don't know the constellations. One of the jokes is like, don't ask me what constellation is. I'm an astronomer. I always give him crap. I'm always like, yeah, if you were a geography professor, I'd say, where's Mexico? He said, don't ask me. It's kind of ridiculous. But not having that experience. Just like you and I remember what it was like to have it at some level. Or we can go and travel to people can in LA. But they can do something, which is quite phenomenal. With the same telescope, that you can get an actual version of this. You can connect to your smartphone.

33:16You can have a tripod. It's $50. I made a video once. I said, this is the best Christmas gift you could possibly get a kid. Because with it, you can see the same craters on the moon that Galileo saw. Light pollution does not obscure the, you know, the planets. Light pollution does not make impossible. I'm not advocating for light pollution. But I'm just saying, right here in the middle of Austin or in the middle of San Diego, I can see the exact same things that cause Galileo to realize that the sun is the center of the solar system using scientific reasoning and evidence based on observation.

33:50How good are the telescopes? Like say, if you wanted to look at Jupiter, how much can you say? You can see a lot. What you can see. You can see the shape. You can see the shape that it's a planet. Do you know what the word planet means? Or it drives you? No. So I love that analogy and stop me if I'm nerding out too much. The planet means wanderer in Greek. Wanderer. What is it wandering against? The fixed stars. So the thing, the fact that you have names for things, you know, I always think it's funny like Jewish. And we have a name for people that aren't Jewish. Goi. It's not an insult. It just means non -Jewish means nation.

34:21Actually, Israel is a goi, which is a nation. But we have like 0 .2 % of the world's population. Like, what the hell are you making of names for? Lachemic names for you, right? But we have names as astronomers. There's only, there were only five things they could see that would move in space. And those were the planets from Mercury, Venus. Obviously they could see Mars and Jupiter and Saturn. But they couldn't see anything else. So they named those things the wanderers and they wander against the fixed stars. Now we know the stars do move and actually the whole galaxy moves. And potentially we'll get to this maybe later and maybe the universe in some sense could be said to be moving in a vaster landscape called the multiverse, which we can get to in a certain point.

35:03But the planets you can see them. But what's so important is what Galileo saw. Jamie, if you could show this would be amazing. Galileo in the winter of 1610 in a northern Italy where he was living. He used a telescope, not any better than this. In fact, this might be better because the glass is better even though it's Chinese piece of junky and I bought on eBay. But he mapped. He was able to measure Jupiter and see it and hopefully we can see on the screen. And he saw it as a disk. So if you want to see planets you can differentiate them right now by the fact that they do not simulate. They do not sparkle.

35:42They do not twinkle twinkle like stars do because they're extended objects that we can actually see through the same and different parts of the atmosphere. Call them. That's what causes the synth, you know, like a sniper rifle. They correct for it. They use it. It's called adaptive optics. That's to avoid like the thermal radiation from the earth like you're shooting something or elk or whatever at great distance. There's thermal radiation close to the ground and then the air is much cooler and so you get these boundary layers of the atmosphere that causes differential refraction which changes the color and the position of where the deer is.

36:14That's not good right. So they have to correct for that using what's called adaptive optics. Anyway, but the the same phenomenon happens for the planets. They're so big. They're so close to us. They're not bigger than the stars. Stars are massively bigger than any of our planets, including Jupiter, the biggest planet in the solar system. But because they're close to us, they don't appear to be points and only points will twinkle. So if you want to identify a star versus a plane versus a planet, the planet will be the thing that doesn't move and doesn't twinkle. That's called synthylation. They do not syntholate the same way that stars do.

36:48So what what Galileo did in January of 1610 is he made a series of observations of the planet Jupiter. He knew exactly where it was. He also invented the tripod. He was the first person that these things that we just take for granted. Like Joe, do you know that they didn't have clocks back then? There was no clock. They had sundaes, but what are you going to do at night? It was the first clock. So Galileo tried to invent the first clock. It was actually part of a precursor to the Nobel Prize. It was something called the Longitude Prize. They offered a prize. I don't know if you've ever done any boating or whatever.

37:20But when you're out on the ocean, it's extremely hard to determine what your longitude is. It's easy to find your latitude. You just look for Polaris, the North Star. You measure your elevation. It's going to complement where you are latitudeingly on the axis going from South Pole to North Pole. But it was impossible to tell where you are east to west from the prime meridian unless you had an accurate way of measuring time. So Galileo was one of the first people to try to compete to win this prize, which was worth like a million dollars back then in those dot days. And he tried a couple different ways to invent time pieces.

37:56But the one that he's tried to settle on was this use of the planet Jupiter's moons. Jupiter has four moons. I came for that look, Joe. I came for that look. I can die happy. I got the look. Jupiter has four moons. And you can see them with this telescope. And I'm going to give this as a gift to you for your little tiny one. You can say it. Yeah. If Jupiter's out, you know where to look and you can kind of use a little bit of much power. This one's about 12 15 power. So you could do it with 15 binoculars. Yeah. Yeah. You'll see what you'll see of these four moons. But I wonder if if Jamie if you could find find something that wasn't great.

38:36If you look up a starry messenger, starry messenger Galileo sketch Jupiter. So what Galileo did is he turned the telescope to the moon for the in 1609 and then 1610. There they are, Jamie, on the right with those stars. Look at that illustration of Galileo. That's his handwritten. I've seen a friend of mine owns this copy, a first edition of these books. And you're looking at it and actually the first edition, the actual copy that he wrote on only that. Yeah. The first edition, but it has his hand running on it in pencil. Whoa. It's insane. Oh my god. That's got to be worth a billion dollars. Oh, it's it's it's it's Jamie.

39:16Could you please go back to that? Those illustrations? That's the thing. That's the thing written stuff. Oh wow. I couldn't tell what this was. It's fine. Imagine having a piece of paper that that guy wrote on. Can you imagine that? So this is yeah. So this is a depiction of him showing. So Galileo's a guy at the beard looking down like Andrew Heberman at the guy with the white beard. Beautiful chisel beard. That's right. Muscular. So he's showing these Venetian senators in dope because they were in charge of the military budget. So even back then there was a scientific military connection that he realized because he because Galileo was kind of a cat.

39:55He had a bunch of mistresses. He had some illegitimate children. How dare you Galileo? He had a support. I dare you not be pure. He had to support his his brother is kind of a no good neck. But anyway, the sketches and the lower right show the planet as you will see it with this telescope. I don't let you know when it comes out. And those four little dots there was an image a couple of pages back Jamie that showed the planet as a disc and then there are four stars and it's if you go back one I'll I'll point it out to you. Yeah see the thing in the lower right Jamie. It's a Pinterest thing. I don't know if that's a buzz.

40:30Yeah click on that. So here's a couple of diseases. This is January. It's hard to say. It's January 1610. That's Galileo's handwriting. And Ionis is like Jupiter. Okay. So he had shit handwriting. Oh I know. Yeah. He always thought people back then just real perfectly with feathers. Who knew how to read it? That's good point. That's a very good point. So he's got like a doctor's handwriting. Exactly. So this is his first major book. And in the upper left you see the sketch of the moon with these giant craters on it. That crater. Yeah. So if you go back. So click on that. That's his sketch. That's his sketch of the moon through this telescope essentially.

41:07Okay. Now the interesting thing is see that big crater. That doesn't exist. Really? It does not exist. The one on the top? Nope. The one on the bottom. That one. It doesn't exist. Does not exist. Now why is it there? He was a smart guy. He was in like he was an artist too. By the way his father of his genzo was a beautiful musician. Well, no musician. He was a sketch. I mean, it's hand drawn. Why? Yeah. Did he put that there? Because Joe, he wanted to convey not only what it looked like but how it felt. He was conveying. And when you see you'll feel like it's like that. But if you actually measure it, it's about 10 times smaller than that.

41:41But also he just made it larger than it really is. He to emphasize it. And what's so cool about that. If you want to know you've had on like my friend Sean Carroll, I talked about the Higgs Boson when he was on the first time. If you want to feel what it was like to discover the Higgs Boson, you need 10 to 20 billion euros and you need a large Hadron collider. Okay, good look. I don't know if Spotify is going to hook you up there. But the feeling that Galileo had, you can have that tonight. You can feel what it's like to see things for the first time in human history because it's your own history.

42:17You're experiencing it for the first time. There's no other scientific tool. Nothing. Even the microscope. It's not the same viscerally. You will be connected to Galileo 400 years ago feeling he was terrified. When he saw those pictures of those dots, he realized what he was looking at was not just like some stars that happened to be next to Jupiter. He realized he discovered another solar system, a system in which there was a massive gravitating object, Jupiter. And around it were orbiting satellites were orbiting moons around it. Today they're called the Galilean satellites. He actually named them after his benefactor, this patron's the Medici's, who were the richest people in that part of Northern Italy.

42:57So he was clever. He was trying to carry favor with you. It would be like if we named the, whatever the Higgs Boson, we named that after the European equivalent of the IRS. He was kind of a kiss -up. It's always sick of him. But it had to save his life and he needed money and stuff. But when he drew that, he realized the, wait a second, the Bible and all teaching here to four said there is only one center to the solar system and it's the earth. Not the Sun. This is called geocentrism. Everybody believed that. Aristotle, Plato, everybody had believed that for a long time because it said it was natural that heavy things should fall towards a center.

43:40And the center that everything seemed to fall towards was the center of the earth or the earth itself. Therefore the earth must be the center of the universe. Remember the solar system was the universe for a long time. Then for an equally long time almost, the galaxy was the whole universe. And now there's the universe and maybe the multiverse that we'll talk about. So this was just incredible realization to him. Imagine like you come upon this thing and you realize you're the first person in human history ever to feel that. Does there any documentation of his struggle with trying to convey these ideas to people that had very strong religious beliefs?

44:16Yeah. Because obviously it turned out to be a catastrophe for him. That's right. But what did he, did he convey in his writing the frustration that he had? He was, he's such a fascinating person. I always like a provocative statement that like we don't need English departments. We should just teach like physics and astronomy because some of the great scientists of history, men and women were tremendous orators. They were tremendous writers and they could convey things through the written word that was pure artistry and mastering. And Galle would say things like I do not believe that the same God who has given us senses to understand the world would require that we not use that I'm butchering the quote, not use them in order to better understand it.

44:59He would write things that he had discovered things, you know, only as a way to open a portal into the universe such that minds more astute than mine may be able to walk through this portal. And it was being a little falsely humble. But Newton was the same way. Newton would write as a great or so you can learn a lot from scientific writing. So therefore if you only had to choose one thing, I would take the books of Galle. And this geocentric version of the universe that they've how is it written in the Bible? Like how do they describe? It's actually, you know, the atheist, so I call myself a practicing agnostic which I can define later if you like, but you had on my friend Steven Seymire which is partially the reason that I'm here I think.

45:46But to have the discussion about the influence of religion on science and he made the claim that without religion we wouldn't have science on the show a couple weeks ago. In other words, we wouldn't have the tradition that we can that the world is intelligible. It's not the capricious will of gods, you know, playing with human beings as Greeks and others had identified. So the notion of how religious a scientist could be or how religion impacted him was very clear. He would say he was a very religious person. In fact, two of his daughters were nuns and because of his, you know, I always say like imagine we're living in a time where someone like Anthony Fauci or you know Francis Collins or somebody that they had they were not only the scientists, the expert scientists say, but they also control the government.

46:35In other words, the most powerful force on earth at that time, at least where Galileo was was a Vatican. He never left Italy. He never left what Italy didn't exist back then, by the way. They were only city states, right? Tuscany and Venice and Rome and so on. But the notion that it was a Catholic, you know, band of jurisdiction and Catholic church had sway over that part of Italy and Tuscany where he was. He was very religious. But he he thought that he could say things like if he proved that something scientifically was true, he didn't understand why that couldn't be part of the religious canon.

47:10So he was surprised.

47:15In it wouldn't be a problem for the, it wouldn't be threatening. But I argue back then it was kind of threatening. Like if you started having a bunch of people say, oh, the Bible's wrong, we've been misled and they're the government, not just scientific authority, they're the government. It could lead, I'm not saying it's good, but it could lead them to want to suppress that, right? Because it could lead to insurrections, it could lead to whatever and rebellions. And that could be perceived as very threatening to the state. But to answer your question, the Bible doesn't say anything about geosensurism.

47:47There are passages in the Bible. There's two famous ones. The most famous one is that Joshua in the Battle of Jericho, he caused the Sun to stand still. And that meets to many people implies that the Sun was orbiting around the earth. It certainly could be construed that way. But to answer your question, there is no real cosmology. You know, I would say like, let me ask you, I don't know how much, I know you've had some exposure to Christianity, but I don't know how much you've ever read of the Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible, but the beginning of Genesis, right? So I know that you're interested in origin stories, right?

48:24So why is it that a book about a nomadic band of Bronze Age peasants? Why does it begin with the creation of the world of the universe? Isn't that weird? Like, shouldn't it be like, there's something really delicious that you're going to want to eat, it's called a pig. You know, don't eat like, why doesn't it start with that? Why does it start with the origin of the universe? What was not the ultimate question that a man would have? I think you're right. I think another way to interpret it is, if God created the universe, then it's kind of like he has title to everything, right? He then could make a claim that, look, there's no God above me.

49:02And think about the milieu he was, the Hebrew, the Hebrew Bible came about in. It was pantheistic. It was in direct contra distinction to the other great religion of the time, which was necropolisism, which was basically Egypt, Egypt was a culture fixated on death, the pyramids, giant tombs. They had mummification to preserve them to the afterlife. They named everything after themselves at statues. Their their Bible was called the Book of the Dead. In other words, the contra distinction to the Jewish, you know, Pymel, the Torah is like the book of life, we call it. So, so Judaism is operating under that where there were gods and the gods were within nature and the controlled man.

49:46The Hebrew Bible was meant to show that no God is above nature and controls nature. Therefore, the Sun, everything was weird that the Sun is created on the fourth day in the Genesis description. The Sun doesn't come about until the fourth day. What's the day? Right. Not there be light. What's there be light from what? From creation, ex millio. That's right. The multivariate is not from the Sun. There is no light. That's right. So what planets are we talking about? Exactly. Right. So, but getting back to the original question, Galileo was very religious. But where does it say in the Bible that the earth is the center of everything?

50:24It's very interesting. What when it happened was the reason it was dangerous for him and he was accused of apostasy was because he was claiming against the doctrine of effectively of Aristotle. And actually, Stephen Meyer taught this to me in a conference that I went to with him last year in just a conversation. I was wondered why is it that the Catholic Church, Catholic Catholicism, Christianity, which came from Judaism, right? I mean, the origin of the except the Hebrew Bible, right? So why is it that a sect of the, or say the scientific and technological elite of the Catholic Church? Why did they want to support a doctrine which really traced itself back to Aristotle?

51:12Right. The Aristotle, Aristotelian notion was that everything was centered on the earth. Like, there's nothing in the Bible that says the earth is the center of the solar system, or doesn't say that, but Aristotle made such logical sense to the Christians, to the early Christians and later to the Catholic Church, that they basically sanctified and made Aristotle effectively into a saint. Wow. And so therefore it was blasphemy for Galileo to contradict Aristotle. Wow. That's incredible. It's really strange because Aristotle was a pagan, right? He was pantheistic, which is the number one law of the Ten Commandments, right?

51:52Is I in the Lord Yerishav, no other gods before me, meaning that Judaism came to destroy pantheism and to accept monotheism and establish it throughout the world and now three billion people are affiliated with it in some way, right? So that was its key enemy. And so if you, we didn't have a sun god, that's why if god creates the sun, god hasham or, you know, the god of Allah or whatever, that is more powerful than the sun. So it's super seeds it. God controls the sun to do things for us and the moon to do things for us, for our benefit, not for us to worship. That is crazy. The question Aristotle became blasphemy and that's the idea of the geocentric universe.

52:35Wow. That's amazing. That's really amazing. It was very interesting. Because didn't they recognize that in in Galileo, they had essentially someone like Aristotle, a very unique mind that shapes its generation and many generations to come right in front of them. And they're like, no, you're committing blasphemy for being brilliant. And you know what's amazing? Galileo has never been pardoned formally by the Catholic Church. Pope John Paul, we really don't want to get into that. So, Catholic Church is, but that's part of the reason I became an astronomer. Interesting. Yeah. Galileo was my hero.

53:13I got to tell a scopes. I was born Jewish. My parents were Jewish. My father passed away. But my, they're both biologically Jewish. When I was seven, my father abandoned me and my older brother, Kevin. And he started new life. And my mother remarried an Irish Catholic man by the name of Ray Keating. And he was very devout Catholic. He's still alive, thankfully. And he lives in these coast. And his family was 10 brothers and sisters. And they welcomed me into their home. And my older brother, Kevin, with such love and graciousness and just touching humility and big Irish Catholic family, they basically would call, they thought that we became their biological grandchildren, cousins, nephews and so forth.

54:01Okay, I'm still close with that. That's amazing. And I became so over -award by it. And in contrary to distinction to that, anything I remember about Judaism from age zero to seven was just like, okay, well, like you have to not eat, you know, once you can't eat that tasty bake. It was all things you can't do. And so forth. Right. So this was like Christmas, Easter, hanging out, like just boisterous, 50 cousins at Christmas. It was a, and so I became, at the traditional age, that a Jewish boy starts learning for his bar mitzvah at age 12, I became an altar boy in the Catholic church in Chapquan, New York.

54:36And I, the exact same time, I was saving up money to buy my first telescope. Because one night I had fallen asleep and I woke up in the middle of the night and outside the window, I saw this huge bright light. And I didn't think there was a street light out there in the middle of summer looking at it. And I was like, wait, that's the moon. And there was something next to the moon that was like, it looked like a little fragment of the moon had broken off and it was just like to the left of it. It was as bright as the moon, but much, much smaller. And I was like, what the hell? And this is in 1986, right?

55:10There's no Google. There's no, and I remember like what it was like before the internet. So I was like, what the hell is that thing? And I had to wait until Sunday, the New York Times used to print, a section called Cosmos. And then Cosmos, they would say like, what's happening in the skies? There's going to be this. There's that. You know, it's the first phase of the moon. And it showed a picture of the moon and some stars and like a map like this, but for stars. And there was a thing next to it that said Jupiter. I was like, what the hell? Like I saw a planet. Like I don't know, you could see a planet without a like Hubble space tell you know, whatever.

55:44Or without a satellite. And so I just got really interested and I kept watching them night after night. And I was unknowingly and I always joke, I have a pretty big ego, but I'm not going to compare myself to Galileo. But indirectly, I kept doing the things that Galileo had done. Like seeing, oh wait, the moon has craters on it. Oh wait, the moon has mountains on it. And maybe I could measure the height of those mountains from the size of the shadow and knowing the distance to the moon. And the planet Jupiter has these four little dots around it. And they would change their position night to night.

56:13And like a lesser intellect like mine, you know, not intelligent at the time. Looking at it, would have just said, oh, the, you know, Jupiter is next to some stars and it's going to move tomorrow. It's different. But no, those were Galileo realized he was looking at a mini solar system edge on. He was looking, if you looked at above, he'd see these four moons going around like this, but he was looking at it like this. So they were kind of going like this back and forth. And it was periodic. And he kept doing it for night after night after night. And it kind of got boring in his book, The Sadduriest Nuncius, which is otherwise an amazing book.

56:44But when you look at it, he realized, hey, it's so periodic, I could use it as a clock. So he tried to win this prize to invent the first stable, accurate clock that could be used by mariners on the ocean surface far from land to determine the time difference between them and Greenwich, therefore determining their longitude. And what's the mechanism that he proposed to try to measure these planets going around? Yeah. So if you just plotted their distance over enough time there, it was periodic. So you could just calculate it just like the moon. Right. But I mean in terms of like the actual mechanical clock itself, what was he, was he, is it just a calculated clock on paper?

57:22It was, you look up in a table like a database. He would have printed forever. But then, but you'd still need to see the planets, and moons surrounding it. So he built, like basically it was the first virtual reality helmet. It's called like a cephalo, some cell phone or something. So it was actually a helmet that you'd put on. And then it had these two short versions of his telescopes on his eyes. And then like you'd go on the ship and they'll be moving around like this and you try to do it. It failed. He didn't win it. And it would probably make you like totally nauseous. Yeah. So you were wearing a helmet with telescopes in front and the ocean.

57:59You're supposed to stare off at Jupiter and count. Like how I don't understand what you just look at the positions. That's the thing. So it looks like a set of yellow. Thank you, Jay. That looks so crazy. I saw that in the battlefield. I'd run like they have evil weapons, they have satanic weapons. And then first of all, you can't see them. You can't see Jupiter for part of the year when it's behind the sun. So that's useless. Yeah. It's got a candle. Oh my god. It's hilarious. They didn't have clocks. Right. Forget about lights. So when was the first mechanical clock? So the first mechanical clocks were I developed, I think in Switzerland and northern Europe, Germany and Switzerland, they were windups and springs and so forth.

58:38And that's a first pendulum clocks. And what year was that around? This was in the early 1700s. So it was finally one I believe the Longitude Prize was one in mid 1700s. Wow. But actually Galileo tried to do this from his youth. He would be in church and I remember even though I was an altar boy and I loved it and I had good experiences in the Catholic church. Even though I abandoned it later on as I'll describe. But the one day he, Galileo was in church and the priest was giving some boring sermon. And Galileo was just sitting there like this. And he looked up and there was a lantern and like some horse cart had gone through or whatever.

59:16And the lantern was going back and forth like a pendulum. And Galileo put his fingers on his pulse. And he timed the period of the pendulum and he realized it didn't change. It was constant. And no matter what he would use for the pendulum, as long as I had the same length, it would have the same period. So all the clocks of the, all the lanterns with the same length chain, all the chandeliers, they were all having the same periods. But those of a shorter one would go back and forth faster. So he discovered the law of pendulum. And he was like five years old. Like those old grandfather clause.

59:51My grandpa parents used to have one. He had this brass thing. There it is. And it's swing. Yep. So they have all these things. He invented the first thermometers. So when did they discern the amount of minutes in an hour, the amount of hours in a day? So to get to a level of precision now, are then to us to a few minutes or fraction of a day, that was easily significant enough to make measurements of longitudes. So that the actual level of precision, that didn't occur into the 1800s. Really good clocks. And now I talk to people Bill Phillips on my podcast in the Laureate at NIST, National Institute of Standards and Technology in Maryland.

1:00:33And they are making clocks that are accurate to one part in a thousand trillions of a second. This thing will not lose over the age of the universe. Mechanical clock? This is what's called an atomic clock. A atomic clock. Optical lattices. And they cool things down to almost absolutely zero. But the reason is the earth used to be, the earth was the first clock. The earth turns around once per day. And the Babylonians decided that they'd like to do it in units of 60. And even though we have 10 fingers in toes, they didn't eat fractions of 60, 60 minutes, 60 seconds, 30, 600 seconds in and out. Right.

1:01:08But why did they do that? That's your game. I don't know why they think about these things. I mean, 60 has a lot of divisors. And so it's convenient. It's divisible by 15, 12, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 6. I mean, when they first decided, okay, right now it's 1 o 'clock. It starts right now. How do you start the debt? How do you decide? It's fascinating that the whole world is adopted the system, essentially, other than military, which uses a 24 -hour system. When you think about that the whole world just decides, okay, we're all going to agree. And then some places are like, fuck you at daylight savings.

1:01:44We're not playing that game. Arizona. There's a few places like that, right? The same thing Arizona doesn't do anything. Oh, you play that game. That's right. Fuck off with your fucking pretend clocks. Things are way up here. And then obviously, there's time zones. With traveling, the way we do now, it's so fascinating, because you can literally fly somewhere 10 hour difference in time zone. Or like Nova Scotia, a Preservoir Island, it's half hours. Got half hour time zones there. Right, right. Yeah. So all this is bringing up a notion what's called calibration. So I'm an experimental physicist.

1:02:14The hardest thing about doing a measurement for me is not like knowing what I measure. It's knowing how I screwed up the measurement. It's like what went wrong. How do I know? Like you said, how do I know what the base level zero point is of this measurement? What's the calibration? When you buy this cup of coffee, when you buy the black rifle or the omit or whatever, how do you know you're getting exactly what they said? Just printed on there, right? So I'll ask you, you're one of the owners, right? So like, how do you ensure that? Like, how do you have ever thought about that? Like, do you go in and count all the hours?

1:02:41No, we had issues with that in the past. When it first started the company, well, we were getting stuff made in these places that do supplements. And so we were third party testing our stuff and finding things in our supplements that weren't supposed to be in there, like different vitamins. Like, why is that in there? And in trace amounts. And it turns out it's contamination. That's right. And that's a lot of athletes actually get popped from small levels of steroids that are in like protein powders and creatine proteins and things that they buy from, you know, kind of shape their emissions. Yeah, Fernando Tati.

1:03:15So he got nailed for that last year, right? What does he do? Well, he's a San Diego Padre. He's a right -fielder now. He's there. Well, there's a lot of claims that people get popped for that. And they get like, Canelo said he had tainted meat from tacos. Oh, they just have enough steroids in them. And he looked jacked as fuck. Right. Exactly. A cell down there. I think it does. Do steroids work if you're not like going to gym? I mean, no, no, they do not. But for athletes, they have a significant advantage and they allow you to recover much quicker. You know, it's, there's certain sports. Well, if you go all bodybuilding a sport, right?

1:03:50Yeah, it's impossible. It's impossible without steroids. Some of these guys are just, you know, you cannot get to that size. You don't get to runny Coleman size. You don't get to like Dorian Yates size. You don't get there without steroids. My mother -in -law size. My mother -in -law, tragically, she lost her, what would have been my, my oldest brother -in -law when he was about 16 years all of my wife's old, his brother. And she dedicated her life to just like, just being the best person she could be. And she entered, she built her body up my mother -in -law's emotional thing about her because I love her so much.

1:04:21And she built her body. And she did this as like a Jewish grandmother, you know, basically. And she's totally ripped. And she's still in great shape. But this is like 10 or 15 years ago, maybe 20 years ago. And I used to joke when I was standing with my wife Sarah. I was like, you know, normally, like take a girl out, you know, scared of her father. Like, I'm terrified of your mother. But like she never used to start. And she's, you know, it's not her way. Anyway, but you can get cut, I think. You can get like, well, body fat without taking legal stuff probably, but you probably can't get the musculature as what you're saying.

1:04:52Oh, you can get very big without taking steroids. There's a lot of people that are massive without taking steroids. There's a lot of people that have fantastic genetics. There's a lot of people that have just thick, heavy bills, you know, it's natural. There's many, many people like that. But to get to the size of a body builder is superhuman. It's not possible. That's steroids. That is a science project. When you, when you look at these people that have just traps that start at the top of their ears, and boulders for sure, bowling ball shoulders, that is, that's not possible. I've met many people that are really fit and look fucking huge and they don't do steroids.

1:05:34There's a lot in the UFC. The UFC, you saw to test everybody. So they'll show up at your house. It's 6 .30 in the morning. Wake up, sir. We need a urine test and we need a blood sample. And they do that all the time and these jacked people don't get caught. They're either they're doing it so sophisticated that even with usata, which is the most sophisticated anti -doping program that we have available. And very invasive, right? Because it's a real problem. I could wake skies up on way in days and shit like that. It's not good. And they're trying to not to do that now. But you have to make sure that it's completely rent like you can catch them.

1:06:10So there's some short acting testosterone supplements that you can take that particularly now. Apparently there's some new ones that they, they leave the body in like two and a half hours. So you can take them and get an elevated level of testosterone. You could take them multiple times a day and it doesn't affect your natural testosterone production. And it also doesn't just show up if you get past that two and a half hour window. So there could be a lot of people who are just rolling the dice. I see. I see. And how the wands work? Because one of the things I was going to mention is, you know, to to when you weigh something, like, what are you comparing?

1:06:47The wands are sanctioned cheating. That's what it is. It is 100 % sanctioned legal cheating. It's more than fasting. They they don't use very sophisticated methods. This guy's sugar shawano mali who just won the ban and weight title. Dan Gardner is his nutritionist and I was actually just going back and forth with him on Instagram because I watched one of the videos that he did. And I was like, that is really impressive stuff. Dan Gardner is Dan, what is his profile here? I think it's Dan Gardner nutrition. And yeah, GAR NER. So he's they're detailing how they cut weight. And one of the things they do is they eliminate carbs like very close out and they do all these different things to water load.

1:07:40So your body gets used to like jumping water out a lot. There's like, it's very sophisticated. So when a guy weighs in, in this case, sugar shawano weighed it at 135 pounds. He's 135 pounds for all of like an hour or so. And then he weighs in. And when he fights, he'll be in the 150s. Wow. He'll be something in the 150s. And that's mild. His opponent, Al Jermaine Sterling, is absolutely massive for the weight class. So Al Jermaine, even though he weighs in at 135 pounds, he's walking around. I've seen him walking around in the 170s. Wow. 135 is my birth weight. He's a bit. Well, he's not that small.

1:08:15When you stand next to him, like there's so an image of me standing next to him when I was interviewing him, he's fucking shredded. There's no way that guy's 135 pounds. I mean, 135 pound person is a fairly small man. Yeah, this guy's fucking jacked. And so it's a magic trick. The best at it is this guy, Alex Baheda. Alex Baheda, who was the middleweight champion, he weighs in at 185 pounds. He fights at 220 plus. He's so massive. Like you cannot believe. Okay, so that's that's that's him on the way in day. Okay, it's not him weighing in though. So he's significantly rehydrated by that point. Is there an image of me interviewing him at the post fight?

1:09:03Is there a technique to put on weight and health like safely before a fight? Like, he's just drinking. It's not safe. It's not safe. It's very bad. These guys are compromised. Yes, 100%. It's very bad for your organs. It's very bad for your body. But okay, so that's him. So look at that. That's 135 pounds. How the fuck? I weigh 200. So look at me next to him. He's fucking gigantic. And I think he's if not the best weight cutter in the sport, him and Baheda, they're in the running for it because Baheda. Now show Alex Baheda. This fucking guy. This guy you can't you can't when he weighs in, I don't see the actual weigh in.

1:09:41I go there for the ceremonial weigh. And so he's already put on probably 10 pounds of water by time. So he'll weigh in first thing in the morning. And then by the time that's him right there. Click on that link right there with me, me standing next to him. The one that you just had with his flexing upper right hand corner of those. Yeah, that one. So that's him weighing in. And he's cheeks are sucked in and he'll gain literally 40 pounds almost between them and fight night. It's fucking bananas. Did a study, I think in the 80s with Olympic helpfuls. And they said they made the following test to sprinters.

1:10:17They said, would you would you trade the following a gold medal, guaranteed gold medal at the next games. If it meant you'd die at age 35. They all say yes. They all say, oh, it's like half of them said, the other ones are losers. But I thought about in the context of the Nobel Prize. It's like, how many scientists have these things? Because what are these Joe? We call them, we don't think about idle worship. Have you ever been tempted to bow down to an idle Joe? I mean, I recently know. We have different idols, right? There's different things that we aspire to. But even people that aren't in the religious sack, think of themselves as atheists, let alone agnostic, but are atheists.

1:11:00They all have religions. And I think for some of these guys, yeah, I mean, if it's sacrificing your lifespan, your health span, whatever Peter or Tio would talk about, what is it worth? I mean, is that high worth it? To be champion for a day? Can you name like a Olympic sprinter from the 1980s, besides like flow Joe? I mean, there were a couple, but I don't think she said that she would trade it. But I mean, it's so transitory and it's so applicable only to this small cadre of people within your technical network, like the Nobel, like you can't probably name more than you've had a couple Nobel Prize winners on the show.

1:11:36But can you name more? No, because you're not, I can name everyone. I can name them. I can name Ben Rose. That's what I'm saying. Yeah, you know, one bit, but you're also the very few people that get to interview people, right? Like him on a daily basis. Yeah, it's a it's a God to them. It's this thing that very few people achieve. Well, when you get this, when you win, I mean, I'm one of Nobel Prize, I mean, my book is called Losing the Nobel Prize in my first book. And spoiler alert, you know, I didn't win the Nobel Prize. But this is what it looks like. That's that's our chocolate replica. Yeah, I know you won't eat that.

1:12:07And I hope you don't leave it. It's 15, it's 15 years old. Jump. Be careful. Why do you think it's bad? What happens to chocolate? Would you eat it? Try it. It would be a shame that if I ate it because it's old. Isn't that interesting? Like if you found old candy and it's still edible, like why'd you eat it? It's from the 1800s. Honey, it's just fucking candy. Honey, last forever. Right. You can see it done in the Egyptian for the next two hours. It's wild. Well, yeah, the only substance that's that's made by an insect, which is you're not allowed to eat insects and kosher Jewish people aren't allowed to eat it.

1:12:35But it's something made by a non kosher animal that you're allowed to eat. So it's kosher. We can eat honey, even though it's made from a nut like you can't drink pig's milk like because it's made from a pig that's right. But look at this thing. So the second commandment talks about not making graven images or maybe it's a third. When you win a Nobel Prize, so my very close friend and mentor Barry Barra, he won the 2017 Nobel Prize for discovering gravitational way. He'd been amazing guest for you by the way. If I can have the temerity to even make such news reactions. But he invented or co -invented the LIGO experiment, which was this experiment.

1:13:10One branch of it's in Louisiana and one's in Washington state. One point two billion years ago, in a galaxy, we have no idea where it is today. Two black holes were orbiting around each other. Just like Roger Penrose had predicted. And they came together and each one was about 30 times, one was 30 times the mass of the sun, one was 32 times the mass of the sun. They combined. They made a giant black hole even bigger, but it only had the mass of say 60 times the mass of the sun. So like two masses worth of the sun vanished. And it didn't produce light because they're black holes. And the energy supplied by them did not go anywhere else except into making what are called gravitational waves.

1:13:54Waves in the fabric of space time. Such that if one more coming through this room right now, I mean you couldn't notice it, but technically it would make your weight go up and down like these guys in the way in would love it. It would make you go up and down, except it would take a couple a couple hundred days for it to even change by a billionth of a percent. But it changes your physical manifestation of gravity. It gives you anti -gravity for a second, and then a lot many seconds and longer it makes you heavier, lighter, and that sort of wave of gravity is. It's distorting the feel and force of gravity.

1:14:25Well, these two black holes coalesced in one or two suns masses of these black holes was converted into shaking up space time itself. Wow. Then these waves of gravity propagated from somewhere. We don't know exactly where in the universe it was. They came to the earth. It took 1 .2 billion years to get to the earth. One instrument in in Hanford, Washington state and one instrument in Louisiana, they registered their the same event, the same exact signal, but separated by the speed of light divided into the distance. In other words, these waves of gravity were traveling at the speed of light, shaking up and exactly consistent with the merger of two smaller black holes into one enormous black hole.

1:15:10Okay, so when Barian's team Ray Weiss and Kip Thorne, they won the Nobel prize for this. I interviewed 15 Nobel, oh, on Thursday, I'm interviewing my 15th Nobel prize winner, but I've interviewed 14 of them so far on my podcast. And we all at the end of each podcast, I always ask them the same question, and it's related to the name of the podcast called into the impossible. It's a quote from Arthur C. Clark. Arthur C. Clark said, the only way of determining the limits of what's possible is to go beyond it into the impossible. So I always say that each guest, I say at the end, it's kind of like my wrap up, you know, what advice would you give yourself as a 20 year old to give you the courage to do as you've done to go into the impossible?

1:15:49And I asked Barry Baris, he's 80 years old, I said, Barry, what would you do? He said, I make sure to tell my 20 year old self to get over the imposter syndrome because I still haven't gotten over it. So what the hell are you talking about? You won the freaking Nobel prize. You're among like, there's more people in the NBA right now, Joe, than are won the Nobel prize in physics that are alive. It's a very small group of people. At most three people can win it every year. They typically win it when they're in the 70s and 80s, so their life experience isn't super long. You're a surrogid, 92 now.

1:16:23But when you win it, I said, I said, how could you possibly have the imposter syndrome, this fear of inadequacy that you don't belong where you're at, that you don't deserve the accolades that you've had? You won it. It was selected by 400 nerds and Sweden that said you were good enough to win the Nobel prize. How could you? He said, no, Brian, when you win a Nobel prize, you get the golden medal, like flavor, flavor, you know, you put on, and you get the $1 million or your portion of the million dollar purse. But they also want to make sure that you received, they're not going to come back later and say, where's my Nobel prize?

1:16:56So they make you sign a ledger. They make you sign, like, remember those old fashioned autograph books? And they make you sign it. And he said, Barry told me, so I'm a curious guy. So what do I do? I look, you know, who won it last year? I saw some of my friends and advisors maybe Richard Feynman, wow, that's pretty cool. Marie Curie, Albert Einstein, his actual signature in this book, because it's only been around for 116 years or something like that. So there, you know, goes back to Einstein and he won in 1922. When he saw Einstein, he said, I am not worthy. I'm just some humble kid from, you know, Nebraska.

1:17:32I don't belong here. How could I possibly be in the same book as Albert Einstein? And I said, Barry, I've got good news and I've got good news. I said, did you know that Albert Einstein felt the imposter syndrome? He's like, you're getting me. How could that possibly be? I said, no, Barry, he did. And I looked up this quote and I showed it to him. I said, Albert Einstein called Isaac Newton, not only the greatest scientist in history, but the man who single -handedly change Western civilization more than any other person through the Can Prankippia and the study of natural determinism and laws.

1:18:09And I said, but wait, there's more. I said, Newton had the imposter syndrome. He said, you're kidding me. Newton, he was like, because Newton was kind of a prick. Newton had a huge ego. He was not kind to his friends. He tortured people as a master of the mint or he had that tortured. He was like, he was like, he was like, he was like, he pushed that microphone. Like, so it's like in your face. Yeah, yeah, he took a podcast. He tortured people. He was responsible. He was like the ex, he was responsible for the equivalent of the IRS in England. So people would cheat. They would scrape down pennies.

1:18:45They would do. He was the master of the mint. It was cool. That's right. He was awesome. Alchemist. He was an amazing guy, but he was kind of a prick. And he had imposter syndrome as well. So he had imposter syndrome. Now who could he have imposter syndrome about? You might wonder. And if you read his writings, do you know what Isaac Newton, the creator of calculus, the first person understand universal gravitation, discovered laws of optics? Do you know what his biggest accomplishment, according to him was? What? He died of virgin. Yeah, that was a weird one, right? Yeah, it's going to bring that up.

1:19:18He was celibate. You know why? Why? Because there's only one way that he could emulate his hero, his, the person before whom he felt the imposter syndrome. And who was that? That was Jesus Christ. Oh boy. So he wanted to be Christ like he wanted to emulate Christ. And the only way he could do it, he couldn't like faster. I don't know. He couldn't bet that walk on water. He couldn't turn water into one. He couldn't turn loaves into fishes or whatever Jesus also did. But he could die celibate. And that's who he had imposter syndrome. But the lesson is, is this from his writing? This book of this?

1:19:53Yeah. Are you sure he just didn't was like an excuse for didn't like sex? I don't know. I mean, it sounds nothing. I guess like, how do you figure that out? He was like 14, 15 years old. You know, you're young and full of hormones. And you've made this decision to be like Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's he was a strange guy. He sounds insane. He definitely was. He was not like, obviously, you would want to hang out with Galloway. If you make Galloway, you want to hang out with him too. Yeah. No, for a little bit, just to see what it's like. So when you win the Nobel Prize, you go there. And what is the, what is the commandment about idol worship?

1:20:25It's that you shall make no gilded golden, graven like engraved images. So who is that? Do you know how that is? Albert Noble? Yeah, it's Alfred Nobel. That's right. Alfred. And you know, he invented dynamite. And he also died. He died never having been married. I don't know if he was celibate. Hollow. So he was never married. But he established this. When you win it, you literally, the king of Sweden comes up to you and you must bow down to him. And he puts the gilded graven image on your head. So for all the, you know, trappings and all the 90 % of national academy members who do not believe actively, profess a belief in God, this can become at some level a religion.

1:21:06And it's a kosher one. It's okay to worship. All right. Well, the unattainable for that that's maybe perhaps attainable to a very select few is always the thing that people are chasing after, especially like high achievers. That's right. But many, many that I know that get there do have imposter syndrome, including MMA world champions, like some of them, they get there like, this isn't real. This can't be real. I can't be the man because they've set this up their whole life. And also it's they look, you can get to the promised land, but you can't stay in it. How many baseball teams have won the world series year after year forever?

1:21:39I mean, even the Yankees haven't done that. Even your boss ox haven't done that, right? They're not on. Okay. Fine. But for me as a young kid, this is, this is what I aspire and actually as an adult, I wanted to win this basically at all costs. This became my, but it was acceptable because people told me, you know, like if you discover these waves of gravity manifest in the cosmic background radiation in the high study, you're guaranteed to win the Nobel Prize. And for me, it was, I don't know about you with your, you know, relations with your father, but I had a very difficult relationship my father.

1:22:14And in it, it was a really predicated the way that some kids would like get into fights, or you know, with their father, or maybe they would try to be a better football player than their dad or whatever. My father was a great scientist and mathematician. And the one thing, the one prize he never won was the Nobel Prize. And so after he abandoned us, this became kind of the way that I could super -seat him. And it became an obsession to me as well as being scientifically interesting to be a part of their very few projects that are eligible to win a Nobel Prize, little on that one can win it. But for me, it was kind of an added dimension that came with it.

1:22:51And that was, you know, like normal kid might have it with sports and their dad or maybe the other way around with your, when you're a dad, you might treat your kids like that. Like, you think it could take me on or whatever like. And so for that, that was the main source of driving impetus for my personal quest to get this particular idol in my life. That's wild. Are you aware of Ronald Mallett? Do you know who he is? No. He is, I believe he's out of the university Connecticut. He studies time travel. And he became obsessed with time travel after his father died when he was a young boy. Because he felt like if he worked hard enough, he could develop a time machine and go back and save his father.

1:23:35It's why, it's literally a Spider -Man origin story. That's exactly right. That this guy has been dedicated his life to finding a working model of a time machine. And I think was it Kurt Gaudel? Like how do you say his name? Gerdo. Gerdo. It's that weird omelette. Yeah. How do you say it? Gerdo. Gerdo. Gerdo. Gerdo. It's like people that say Van Gogh and then they know it's really Van Gogh. I'm a contuseo. But he developed a working model. But it just required something like the size of the of the solar system. No, you're right. I don't know. You know that. But yeah, he had a spiraling. He had a rotating cosmos where you could have what are called world lines.

1:24:16Just like you could walk around the surface of the earth. And if you go in the same direction, eventually it'll come back to where you started. And if the universe was somehow rotating in the way that he envisioned it, you could have it end up on a time start where you began. Then the beginning. Yeah. See that traveler's life. Like time like Kurt. Well, Gerdo is interesting because he and Einstein were buddies back at the Institute for Advanced Study. Like up. And I don't know if you saw up in I haven't seen it. Yeah, you should say it. I don't go to the movies. I do go to the movies. I saw Barbie.

1:24:45Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My girls are not all enough to do every day. It's fun. I want to say my friend Ben Shapiro, your former guest. Yeah. He hated it. I don't understand Ben. He needs to have a sit down. Maybe about that. Maybe I'll come. I just everything's a goddamn culture war. I know. That's what I love about astronomy. I want to ever freaking wakes up and see that comment over that. That's a Republican. There's a Democrat astronaut. Well, it also it makes you're studying things that are so immense and so spectacular that it makes all this stuff seem like nonsense. There's stuff that people fill their days up with complaining about, but fucking Barbie mood.

1:25:27Jesus Christ. I mean, that would be would be like someone who's a pacifist reviewing the ultimate fighting championship. Exactly. There's less in the hit each other too much. Like that's what it's for. There's a joke about Einstein goes to heaven and somebody comes up to him and says, Oh, you're on Bern Einstein. You know, you're great. I can't wait to talk to you in our own sense. So first you must tell me I can't wait to talk about the math and strength theory. And then another guy goes, what's your IQ? It's 130. Oh, we can talk about the stock market and we can talk about all these financial distr - and then some because I have 100 IQ.

1:26:08Can talk about culture wars.

1:26:13I think it's more of a tribal thing than anything with us. I think what's going on is just something that's like written into the human reward system that there's a there's a lot of social value in being a part of a tribe as well as social value in being a part of a committed ideology, whether it's a religion or a cult or politics. That's what's impressive. I mean, not to be too overbearingly praiseworthy, but you know, there's a yitter saying, if you stand in the middle of the road, you could hit from both sides of the street. But you seem to like defy that, you know, it's always interesting to me if I talk to somebody, I talk to Nome Chomsky, I personally hate his politics or whatever, but I'm talking about linguistics and aliens and communication.

1:26:57You know, I'll talk to them, but you know, or I talk to Ben Shapiro, people just go, oh, how could you possibly platform him? And does it need Brian Keating's help to platform him? I don't talk as nonsense. There's only one way to find the holes in someone. I mean, how many revealing interviews have you seen where people were supposedly platformed? And in those conversations, you reveal like the way that they look at the world is very flawed. It's very easily pick a part of you. You could just like go through it and say, well, this is illogical. This doesn't this doesn't fit in with the whole your whole philosophy of freedom.

1:27:28Like there's so many things that are inconsistent with the way you view this one thing. Like why do you view this one thing this way? I think the human mind hates ambiguity, right? No one would say like you can abort a five -year -old. I mean, I hope so. There are people. There's a guy in print. Anyway, I don't get it. I'm sure there's a few persons out there. You know, my dad used to say when I was 30s, like I believe in abortion up until the 33rd trimester. But on the other hand, no one say like before the parents meet, like you can't have it, like doesn't make sense, right? So there's clear cut benefits to being polarized because it simplifies it gives you a hack and algorithm.

1:28:08Say, like I can you're easily say, well, you should not have an abortion. So therefore, I must be in the people that say you should never own a or like gun control. Like should you have like an AK -47? Maybe should you have a toe a tank operator? What probably not? Should you have a little boy? You have a little boy. Fat man. That's not of that kind, right? Not that explosive. So I think that but it's because human beings hate these Schrodinger kind of like ambiguities. They just hate them and so they must cleave to the direction that they understand. Yeah, it's a very unfortunate thing that doesn't get taught out of people instead of that we teach them to subscribe to whatever ideology the teacher is promoting.

1:28:45You know, and I think that's a real issue with with people. We need to give people the space to figure out things for themselves and decide how they view all these different subjects. Not have this predetermined group of questions and answers that you, that these are, they're part of the ideology. You must subscribe to them wholeheartedly, wholesale. And even by you, like apparently, so Lex mentioned that Andrew Huberman's Wikipedia page, because you platformed Arif, I'm like the guy's a Kennedy, okay, first of all, he's Democrats. Well, this is all that happened. If you don't, Andrew Huberman commented on a post that I made about Robert Kennedy Jr., he said, I think this is great.

1:29:31I hope more presidential candidates do long form podcasts. That's it. So Wikipedia removed the research section of his page. He said 70 public, published papers. He's very well respected and they removed that because they had decided that they were going to, I don't know what their thought process was, what their motivation was, but it appears that what they're doing is punishing him for what he said by labeling him in a very, they're maligning him in multiple different ways. I thought about saying like, well, you know, who else Joe Rogan had on this guy in Peter Hotas? Yeah, well, I kind of have a lot of people on.

1:30:10But it's not, there's nothing wrong with having a guy who's running for president on a podcast to discuss things like you. What are you talking about? It's nonsense. And the way they did that to Huberman, when he was just saying that he hopes more presidential candidates do long form podcasts, that's, you can't do that. That's like, that's tyrants do shit like that. That's horrible. If I could indulge your, you know, forbearance, you know, because of how often do I, and it's the first time I ever met you, but trying to study, you know, how to be a better podcaster to be better at my, my, you know, microscopic emulation, right?

1:30:48So I have on all different types of people, but, but sometimes I have on people. And, look, I'm a scientist. I'm not a podcaster. I'm a tenured professor of physics at a major university. And so it's not my data. But nevertheless, I feel like I owe it to people to translate what my fellow scientists are doing into layman's terms that they can understand because they pay our for consular. It's very valuable what you do. It's very valuable. It means it's so important to have people do exactly what you just described, translate it to people that are not going to study it in any other way. And it's a very consumable way.

1:31:18I get pushed back. Very digestible. I said, like, yesterday a couple days I said on Twitter, I said, um, why is it that science that there are science popularizers? Like we don't have like UFC popularizers. We don't have movie popularizers. We don't tick -tock popularizers. But we have this whole class of people called science popularized. And I'm, I'm all for, I've had talked in the other press Tyson, Mitch, you're kind of talk to these people. It's fine. Maybe I do it at some level, Brian, Brian Cox, Brian Green. I'm the third Brian to come on the podcast, Farzona. Um, the, but the thing is we, a scientist have been given this incredible script, the script of nature or of God, if you will.

1:31:56Um, we have this incredible present. And we are so bad at communicating what we do. And worse than that, we don't feel like it's our obligation. I always joke. And maybe it's not even a joke. Scientists have a moral obligation to communicate what they do to the people that fund them. But they also have, you know, just common sense. If the public gets turned off to science because the scientists say, ah, I am too specialized for you, Joe, I can't break it down for an every man to understand what I do is very, now I should stay in the lab because we need people that just stay in the lab and don't get I was joke like, how do you know a scientist is outgoing?

1:32:33Have you ever heard of this one? No, they look at your shoes when they talk to you. That's really funny. But if I don't teach my students these things, if I don't teach them, look part of the soft skills that will get you farther in life and all the noble laureates that I've talked to, they all have that in common. They're not just awesome. And the top elite killers of science, Joe, they're incredible communicators, persuaders, salesmen, saleswomen because you don't just make a great idea and everyone accepts it, you have to convince people editors, peer reviewers, ah, funding agencies. And you're in a complex battle against the world's other killers.

1:33:10And what if you're just a little bit better than them because you have learned that it's important for you to communicate to your bosses, to your funding agents such that we don't have this elite that the general public can't understand. So they just defer to whoever's, you know, whichever way the wind's blowing and we have what we've had for the last few years. Well, don't you think that, I mean, the reason why you have so many science influencers or science educators is because science is way more complicated than all of the other things. I don't know, is it? Yeah. Of course it is. It isn't.

1:33:42It isn't isn't. Do you know the difference? Oh, I don't want to say it like that. I'm going to say there's a difference between complex and complicated. Okay. So a complicated thing is building a 787 dreamliner. That's freaking complicated. There's over 700 million, you know, parts to it. There's a supply chain. There's, you know, like, if that people don't know how to build a pencil. Like there's no one person. Have you heard that like that knows how to get the graphite and the wood and the eraser and the metal and the paint. There's no one person that has a, so something as simple as a pencil could be considered.

1:34:15But complicated means if you follow it, my PhD thesis, if you follow it, you will build a polarimeter that's capable of measuring the cosmic micro - background polarization. Like there's just, it's just linear steps. There's complexity. Like if you try to make a sand pile and have exactly the same number of grains of sand, or if you want to have this particular thunderstorm that's brewing in the plains of Austin, Texas tonight, that is a complex system. That is a system that is not capable of being described by a finite number of steps. It may have properties. It may have phases. It may have building phase, dissipating phase, hail, but it may have commonalities, but like the butterfly effect, the flapping of the way, you cannot replicate the sensitivity to the initial conditions that then lead to a complex event.

1:35:01Science can be both complicated and complex, but there's just no, there's no way around this. If you can't explain it to somebody who is not an expert, you've failed at a certain level. Because just imagine if you were working like, do you think it's complicated to be an accountant at a top 10 accounting firm? Is that course? Yeah. So imagine your boss, the CFO of that company comes and says, hey, Joe Rogan, what you've been working on? What I've been working on is very complicated. It's very sophisticated. It's very complex. It's very, you won't understand it. That's the implication. You're insulting the person.

1:35:38I'm insulting the general public. If I say, I can't explain to you why this is the frickin absolute coolest thing in the world to do. And if you didn't pay me or Gavin Newsom, my boss, your former governor, if he didn't pay me to do it, Joe, I would do it for free. In other words, we are so animated by it, but why don't we do it? Because actually, it's the converse of what you said, communicating to the public is hard to scientist. It's not the science that's hard to do. It's to learn how to distill it and teach it to you. I've had over 2000 students in my career. I don't think I'm the best teacher, but I think I can do a good job enough to take somebody who wasn't layperson and now they're an expert and now they're teaching down the street from me and down the street from you here.

1:36:20And there's much better and smarter than I am. How did that happen? If I didn't dedicate some time to it, but what scientists will say is, no, I want to study wormholes. And it's not really that important. That's the subtext. What Neil deGrasse Tyson it's not that important. What he's doing, he can't do real, this is the round, I'm not saying I believe this, but this is the rap. He is not a real scientist. He won't say he is not to do research, he doesn't have students, but he's not really a scientist the way that I, Brian Keating, I'm a scientist because he's not actively in the trenches because if he were, he wouldn't have time to go out, that's BS.

1:36:55I'm sorry, that's BS. Well, what I meant is that it's complicated to do in terms of like expressing that to people and there's so many things to cover, there's so many things and you also have to captivate people's attention. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't think it's, and there's also various fields of science that you, let me try explaining string theory to regular people. You can do it. You can, but I mean, it's very complicated, right? It's like an Eric Weinstein can do that. He can talk to, oh, he'll put you in a coma. He will put you in a coma. I'll say, keep it simple for me, help me out and he'll on purpose.

1:37:31Just, well, that's called the, that's a bias called the expert effect. Like, you're so smart, you just don't realize what it was like now. Like, you can do things in a gym. I'm sure like, you don't even know that you're doing them, but to teach it to me would be impossible, right? Because it's just like encoded and viscerally into your DNA by this point. I think I can teach you. You can teach. Yeah, if your body moves normal, I can teach you. I guess the thing is people say, well, no, that's really not my skill set to teach. In a sense, by the way, I mean, half of our jobs as professors is supposed to be to teach, not just to raise money and do research.

1:38:02So, like, you think, well, you're a professor. You are a science communicator. Yeah, basically. And if you're not, if you, if you take your job seriously, you're not a schmuck and you think that I have integrity, I'm going to learn how to do that beyond because what would happen if the public cut, cut off science? They said, we don't look what happened in the last couple of years. Like, we don't know who to believe. We don't know where is the ground truth. Who do we believe? I hear our of K. Yeah, we're going to defund science. So, you're unemployed. By the way, I only have the job I have now and not like building some weapon because we're not at war.

1:38:33Right? I think it's 60 years ago in Oppenheimer and you'll watch it. You know, like they took the killers of science and they were all in the desert in Los Alamos and they were squirreled away and they didn't tell anybody. And the same thing was going on in London and England and working on radar and the same thing was going on in MIT. And it's just, we serve at the pleasure of the public as scientists and when two few of us realize this and two few of us view it as a moral obligation to communicate back to the public. And so, therefore, we have this industry of science, popularizers and some people make quite a good living at it.

1:39:04Yeah. Well, it's more power to them. It's great that people are interested in it now and it's one of the things that I think podcasts like Lex Friedman's and many other ones that platform these people and have these discussions. And it's like makes things digestible. Absolutely. It's very important because it's very fascinating. I wanted to bring this thing up before I forget. Because we kind of skipped over it all. We talked about the web, the web telescope. How old is the universe? Okay. So you had this tweet that took over the internet and it's a rampage. Well, it was actually something that I had heard before that.

1:39:37Someone was saying there was something like a quays are that they had discovered that seemed to be far older than what's supposed to be. So ever since the web telescope, web telescopes launched on Christmas day 2021, and it's been traveling out to a million miles past the Earth Moon system. It's about a million miles from the Earth. And there are orbits. It's cool. It orbits around a blank piece of space that orbits around the Earth and the Sun. So it's a wild thing that was figured out a couple hundred years ago and it was only possible to be used now. But anyway, this orbit allows James Web and its cameras to see things in what's called the infrared portion of the radio, infrared portion of the electromagnetic spectrum.

1:40:15So if you take another gift for Joe, so these are called a diffraction grading. So this is like a billion mini prisons. I got one for Jamie too. After the show, we'll give it to you, James. So now if you hold this up to a source of white light, look at the source of white light above us. You see these beautiful rainbow halos, right? And it's almost a continuum.

1:40:43In you can't really tell. But now look behind you at the Joe Rogan Experience neon light. Okay? You'll basically just see the yellow, you'll see the orange. And that's because that's made of gases that only emit light at very, very narrow wavelengths, very, very small wavelengths. What am I not supposed to see? So you don't see the halo of a pure rainbow around the say the oh, you see, you see, you see a couple of colors, but you don't see the continuous, you see how it kind of breaks apart? Yeah. Or here's another example, Joe. I'll put this on the wall. This is a laser spot. Okay? So now look at this through there.

1:41:17What do you see? I can't see it. Oh, so there you go. Oh, yeah. I see a bunch of them. You just see a bunch of green dots. Yeah, they're everywhere. But now if I do this, here's a white light.

1:41:29I'll do it. I'll point it right at it. Close. I don't blind you. But here, look at me. Okay. And look at that. Oh, it's pretty, right? Isn't that cool? That's beautiful. That's cool, right? So this diffraction grading separates light out into all of its different wavelengths. It's called the spectrometer. It's dispersing it according to its color. Now Isaac Newton and William Hershel figured out something really cool. They said, if I believe, if I look at a light source like the sun or something like that, and I block off all the light, here's the red lights on this, going to be on this sun. If I put a thermometer, I actually put a thermometer like right here.

1:42:04The thermometer would register 70 degrees or whatever it is in this room. If you go outside and the sun's out, it will and the sun lights not directly hitting the thermometer. And you put it where the red comes out over here. It starts to heat up. The thermometer gets warmer. And they realize there's light that you cannot see beyond the red that's responsible for the perception of heat. That's heat. That's called infrared radiation. If you keep going in this direction, if such a thing are possible, you eventually get to microwaves, which is what I study. Those are wavelengths of about a millimeter to three or four millimeters in wavelength.

1:42:40Visible light is, is visible light's 500 millions of meters, incredibly small. Then there's infrared, et cetera, et cetera. And then finally, there's radio waves way off over there that you can't see with something like this. Obviously, you can't even see infrared light with this. So they realize there's invisible light beyond the red, invisible to the eye, but visible to sensors and detectors. So what web has are series of detectors like these things. These are like chips. These are actually superconductors, which I want to talk to you about this recent claim of detectors that can conduct electricity with no resistance.

1:43:12But these are superconductors. But nevertheless, these are like computer chips like Del makes around the corner here, right? So if you put that, but they detect heat, those detectors don't detect light. They're in there. They don't care about light. They care about heat. So if you put them at the focus of a telescope and you spread out the light using something like this to disperse the light, such that only infrared light falls on that telescope, then you'll be detecting infrared radiation from whatever objects you look at. Now, if you pointed out a galaxy that's far off in the distance or a quasar, that light has been red shifted.

1:43:46It's been moved all the way from where it started in the visible light because those galaxies are made of suns and stars just like arms. So they should have visible light, but they're mostly red. Only the web telescope can see those with the kind of clarity and distinction that they're able to perceive it. What was claimed by a paper, and actually have been communicating with the author. So one of the cool things about having a podcast is that when someone puts out a claim, oh, like a superconductor that works at room temperature, which would revolutionize, or there's fusion, not fusion, but fusion that exists now for the first time, I can call them up and say, hey, I have this fun podcast, which is like, come on, I've had a Nobel Prize winners and billionaires and whatever.

1:44:25And they come on, and I can nerd out about science, so that's super fun. So I did an interview with this woman, this poor friend of mine, Alison Kirkpatrick in Kansas, she was quoted as saying, like, I can't sleep, like the universe is not the way it's supposed to be. Web has revealed and just shattered all my dreams about what the universe was, is really like. And this guy, I don't want to use their names, but this guy pulled that quote and said, this proves the big bang never happened. That was the first thing that happened after web came out last year. This gentleman is claiming that the universe is infinitely old.

1:45:04And that the reason that you see red galaxies is not because they're red shifted by the expansion of this, if I kept blowing up this beach ball, these things would be moving apart from each other, red shifting their wavelengths away from one another. He's saying, no, that's not what's happening. Instead, astronomers are foolish. They've been overwhelmed by this notion of the big bang. The big bang never happened, but light is losing energy and getting more and more red as it travels to us in an infinite universe. That's infinitely old. Is this person qualified to make this statement? This person has marginal qualifications.

1:45:39They've give away the tell and poker language of this guy's non -seriousness is that he wrote the same thing 30 years ago in the Hubble telescope. He's had the same thing and he has a book. But the second thing that you tweeted relative to was not that the universe was infinitely old, that it was twice as old as we thought. Yeah, it's like 26 million years old. So we, so I did a podcast with Alcin Karpatrick and she and I went through this guy's claims. And then the next day, and we showed what he was saying is slightly different. He's saying the universe has a finite age that a big bang like event happened, but because of these properties of galaxies that I'll explain in just one minute, because of the properties of galaxies, the universe has to be much, much older than astronomers claimed.

1:46:24He doesn't say you guys are fools and idiots and he's a legitimate professor in Ottawa's names or just goop to the day after. So we went through it, took it apart. I thought it was pretty convincing and he even agreed that there are problems with it. And worse or better, he has integrity. Let me just say that. He told me that his media office was kind of responsible for eventually leading to the tweet that you produced because what happens in academia? Trying to get attention. Well, so I call this the academia media hype complex. So ordinarily you're working on something and let's say you discover, oh, there's this new material and it has a breaking point of 10 ,000 kilograms per millimeter.

1:47:08So I'm like, okay, it's cool. It's interesting. It's important. It's incremental. No one's saying it's going to revolutionize spirituality, theology, and have our, you know, meanings restored. But it's important, okay? It's some some out. But sometimes there'll be something that will be enough of a surprise that the professor like me will then go and say to their dean, hey, this is a cool result. I'm kind of sitting on it. I think it could be kind of big. Then the press office, we have a press office at UCSD. I've done this before. There's going to be some big news coming out about our result.

1:47:42It's very interesting. The university starts to promote it. Then a local newspaper, in my case, San Diego Union Tribune, in his case, you know, the Ottawa Times or whatever, they'll start to, you know, kind of promote it. And then if it's really provocative, it might make national news or in the physics news. And then if it's incredibly provocative, a, you know, one of the world's foremost influencers might say something about it. And then Elon Musk might retweet and say that actually he thinks dark matter is even more sketchy than the age of the universe. So this in like the astronomer communities sent people into apoplexy.

1:48:17They were going, no, these guys should not be talking about like I have friends like Elon Musk shouldn't even talk about this because he launched a satellite and SpaceX whose whose main job is to detect like what he guys talking about like when lay people and Elon's a technically minded person, he has a physics background as an undergraduate. He's not physicist. He's not a scientist working to discover new laws of nature and employ the scientific method. He's good at engineering and he's an incredible businessman and visionary person. But he's not so he's kind of a proxy for a smart layman, right?

1:48:47In this sense, there's nothing wrong with that. But people then perceive this is like now these influencers are now overturning the work of literally thousands of astronomers and physicists working right now on legitimate scientific topics. Let's get back to the actual claim itself. Yeah. So this claim itself, this is where we're getting away from this a little bit. So this claim of 26 billion years, is that does it make any sense? So it can make sense in the in the following context. Imagine you see a planet and on that planet, there are people and they're they're playing around with like these electrified pieces of silicon.

1:49:28And you'd be like wait a second, like that's really weird. Like that planet's only four billion years old. How is it possible that they're not only able to talk on electrified silicon, but they're also like having an internet and space flight? No, no, no, it takes longer in my model of how civilizations form, it must have taken eight billion years for that to happen. So therefore, it's impossible to reconcile with the earth being 4 .3 billion years old. Therefore, the earth must be 8 billion years old. What he said, this guy Gupta said, there are properties of galaxies. They're rotating, they're they're they're appearing too early on the universe's early history to have developed into the spiral characteristics and the population distribution of them.

1:50:13It's too numerous to have occurred in a universe that's only, quote unquote, 13 billion years. And you actually said that. You said, like, I always thought, you know, 13 billion's a pretty big number. You know, now they're saying 27. So what's the difference? But there's a big difference because implicit in that criticism is that there are flaws and imperfections and how we understand the big bang. Okay. When in reality, at best, he could be correct about the formation of galaxies. But you see, those are two separate things, right? The formation and the structure of a galaxy has no bearing on how old the universe is necessarily.

1:50:46It tells you something about your models of computer simulations is what he's effectively criticizing, not criticizing the evidence that something like a big bang occurred at a very definite point in the universe has passed that we believe to about one to the, we have equivalent precision for me to say, I know how old you are exactly, but but if you look at a 50 -year -old person, you could say, you know the day they were born plus or minus a week, like that's the precision with which monastronomers know the age of the universe. And one guy is coming up with this idea that because there's certain galaxies within it that have formed this, I mean, again, I'm eventually found like a hyper -advanced civilization that has warp drives and, you know, does every this type three Dyson civilization or whatever, they would not cast down on the evolution and the history of the universe itself.

1:51:38That would not cause me to question that. It would cause me to question my models of how people form and aliens form and stuff like that, but it wouldn't cause me to question the age of the universe. There's nothing related to it. When we are studying the age of the universe and the vastness of space, is it, is there potentially new technology that would expose more than we currently can view that would change your model? In the sense that we are jobs as scientists, especially me as an experimentalist, in contrast to people like Brian Cox, Neil the Grass Tyson, Eric Weinstein, etc. My job is not to prove theories right.

1:52:21My job is actually to prove them wrong. That's really what I get paid to do, is to narrow and winnow out so much so that what is left is the truth. There's a quote by Isaac Asimov. He said, if you think the earth is flat, you're wrong. If you think it's a perfect sphere, you're also wrong because it's not a perfect sphere. It actually bulges at the equator, it has properties, you know, because the earth is spinning and the way it forms it's a little bit like a pair, okay? So it's also not, but it's much less wrong to say it's a sphere than to say it's flat. Our job is to continually find the flaws, the cracks that as, you know, it said, you know, the cracks let the light in.

1:53:02Our job is to find the flaws in the existing paradigms, shadow those, and refine those. And there's countless, you know, examples of that throughout scientific history. So there are ways that I would be caused to doubt the formation story of galaxies. Absolutely. I mean, that's almost like predicting hurricanes. You know, I just came through a hurricane to see, right? There's a big hurricane in San Diego this week and it's like an inch array. Okay. You know how we drive in Southern California, right? So even the like of a trace of rain causes us to go into total terror. But, but we didn't know where it was going to make exact landfall because a climate is an example, as I said earlier, not of something that's merely complicated, it's complex.

1:53:44The best way to simulate the earth's climate is with another earth. In other words, there's no irreducible way to reduce the amount of complexity to scribe a physical system than the system itself. That's a notion of complexity. That's a definition of complexity. So in the context of what you said, absolutely. And people like Allison and others, the Kierpacher, they definitely are, would be more thrilled than anybody to discover, well, we didn't understand there's something wrong with our model of how the universe, not how the universe formed, but how galaxies formed. So what I'm asking is with the levels of detection that we have available, how significant is the change in what the web is able to do and is it possible that like when we're looking, is it whatever levels of detection, whatever methods of detection we have now, is it absolute that if you go do 13 point whatever billion years, we couldn't have better methods of detection.

1:54:46There's no way we would get more data, more information, and would it change? Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. No, no, I misinterpreted what you said. What I'm saying is like, is it possible that with new technology, we would get more information, we'd be able to see more further and then you would remap this idea. Let me explain. Sorry, I misinterpreted what you said earlier, but now I can correct it. Yes. And the good news is that's what the Simon's observatory is trying to do. The web telescope has was never built for nor can it say anything about the big bang or what caused the big bang or galaxy formations.

1:55:18It's not just, by the way, it's a pretty big deal, but it's actually formation probably the stars exoplanets, the atmosphere is the chemistry, civilizations on exo, it can do so much cool stuff. Now, I'm not that's not my scientific area of expertise. What I study is this, the cosmic microbec the cut. There are only three long range messengers that can be used in astronomy. Astronomy is really hard. Unlike, say, biology, remember in high school, you had like a frog or a cow's eyeball or whatever, like, you know, you could dissect, there's another frog, like your buddy could do it better than you and you should get the same results, right?

1:55:56There's multiple examples. You can do a control, right? You can leave that frog alone and then dissect this frog and then put for malduh and whatever. I don't know what these biologists do to be honest with you, but when I dissected the frog, it came back to life. I was terrible at biology and that's what became an astronomer. It came back to life. It came back to, now I'm just going to. So, you can do a variable and a control. How do you do a control when there's only one thing, universe, there's only one cosmos, right? We can't do experiments, but what we can do is we can make use of everything that comes to us in various forms.

1:56:30There's only really three or four different types of things that come to us from great distances. I brought some of those here with me today to give to you and to Jamie. So, some of them are meteorites, right? There's a meteorite. So, there's a meteorite. That's that's going to be Jamie, so be careful with them. Now, you, your birthday, is the peak of the perseid meteor shower. It's one of the best meteor showers. And you're typically, so next year on your birthday, I'll remind you, go out, go to a dark spot and just look up. You don't need binoculars, you don't need a telescope, you don't need nothing.

1:57:02And you'll see it in an average a couple of meteors per hour burning up in the atmosphere. Those came from parts of our solar system, or Abilob, our mutual friend has discovered what he claims and seems to be pretty likely is fragments of a meteorite from another solar system that could potentially contain alloy. In other words, not metal. This is pure metal. So, this is your birthday gift. This is one of your birthday gifts. Oh, thank you. So, that's pretty heavy, right? That's a real meteorite. Now, how do you know it's a meteorite? So, check it out. That is a fragment of the early solar system.

1:57:36It's actually older than the earth. It's about 4 .3 billion years old. How do I know with the magnet? Well, so, these materials are very, very unusual in terms of their composition of relative to things in earth. Here's a more powerful magnet. That's more powerful than this big one? Yeah, look at it. Yeah, that's some Chinese piece of junk. Wow, that's crazy. The difference. Yeah, check this out. This is a pull for sure. This is a rubbery. That was like, so that big meteorite crashed in Argentina in about 7 ,000 years ago. It was found by tribesmen and tribeswomen in the 1500s, I believe, and they started to take it.

1:58:15And what would you do with the chunk of metal back in the 1500s junk? Make swords up. They made arrowheads, which you would do too, probably, right? So, they just made it until weapons of war and then finally it was realized in the 1800s. It was a meteorite. How big was it? It was huge. Thousands and thousands of pounds, tens of thousands of pounds. Wow. I have one big sample even bigger than that one. So, here's some information for you. Now, these little guys, I give these away on my website. These are much, much timeier little fragments. Those should be some very exclusive arrowheads if you get a hold of those.

1:58:47Yeah. So, my dream is to make these things into rings. You know how Ryan Holiday has these like, I'm a menta -mory coins or whatever. So, my merch someday, my dream is to make these into rings. Because they look super, everything, Rolex meteorite watch. Yeah, they're meteorite surfs. That's the stone. That's it. That's the metal chain. And how many years ago did this slam into the earth? That's 7 ,000 years ago. Wow. And so, that must have done a fuckload of damage. Yeah, it was a big crater. And that's just one fragment of it. It's strewn over several kilometers. And some of the pieces are even bigger than that one.

1:59:21Wow. This is a relative. So, now the Argentinian government is banned export of it. So, actually, you can't get these. So, this is like a stock putt of that. Yeah, I give them away, but these are fun. So, we did an isotopic test on it. We found out what's the ratio of it. So, these can only form in space. They have certain properties that can only form in space. So, this is one of the four long range messengers that come throughout the cosmos. The other one is gravitational waves. We talked about those earlier. Those travel at the speed of light. These travel 20 ,000 miles per hour, but it's pretty fast, but it's not speed of light, which is 166 ,000 miles per second.

1:59:55The other type of thing that travels near the speed of light, possibly at the speed of light, are called neutrinos. Neutrinos are these ghost particles that are basically almost massless. They interact with almost nothing, except for other types of weak and leontiracting material. And then the third thing are photons. So, you asked a question. Could new technology reveal properties not about the age of galaxies, but the age of the universe that would cause me to question things? That's exactly what I do. So, our telescopes, the Simons Observatory, and then when I talked about earlier, it's 110 million dollar project, which will last over a decade.

2:00:29And that project is aimed at not just measuring the light, the earliest light in the universe, it's called the cosmic microwave background radiation. It's the leftover heat that was left over after the first atoms formed. A smallest, most simple atom hydrogen, when it formed, there was still heat in the universe at that time. That was about 400 ,000 years after the Big Bang. So, you can't see further back than that light, because that's when the first light is produced. So, you can't see light earlier than that. The galaxies that web is seeing is 300 million years old. In other words, that's from the universe's 300 ,000 times older than what we can see just with microwaves.

2:01:12But that's not good enough, right? We don't want to just see the 380 ,000 year old universe. We want to see it at time equals zero, or as close as we can get. Because there are some people that say there wasn't just one Big Bang. There have been multiple Big Bangs, but there are other Big Bangs going on right now. Some say there was a single Big Bang that just emerged from pure energy. Some say that there was a universe that existed before our universe, and it collapsed. And the material that would later become our universe emerged from what's called a Big Crunch, or a bouncing, collapsing universe.

2:01:45And these are different models. My job is not to prove them, right? It's to eliminate whatever ones of those I can with my team, obviously. And in so doing, our new technology, which is the most cutting edge technology ever made, it might be the last of its kind, operating in Chile, which is turning on later this year, is going to start revealing the answer to those questions. And the way that it will do that is is really a combination of three different tools. The only three tools astronomers have, telescopes, detectors and telescopes, brains, you know, the do theoretical work and make models, and then computers to simulate and to assess the data.

2:02:24We synthesize those three tools, we hope that we'll find new information. Will it change the age of the universe from 13 .8 billion years to 26 billion? I don't want to say absolutely not, but there's almost no chance of that. Because it's fundamentally almost like a different type of science. It's like saying, I'm going to tell you about the age of homosapiens on Earth based on planetary geological forces. Like, okay, you can't have a person before there was a planet, so there's some relationship, but it's very tenuous. Interesting, very tenuous. What if anything can be done other than what we're doing right now to try to detect whether or not there is either signals from intelligent species out there somewhere or some sort of evidence of them in terms of some manipulation of atmosphere or something like that.

2:03:21Yeah, and this is obviously a big, big topic. And I really wouldn't have gotten so interested in it. I used to really dismiss it, and I still am probably you'd call me an alien minimalist because I think there's almost no chance that there are aliens. Certainly, there's almost, I would say there's almost no chance that there's intelligent technological aliens. In other words, it could be slime mold on some exoplanet proxamist in TREB, but we never know about it because they don't have thumbs and technology, right? But I even think that that might be impossible or as close to impossible as a good scientific, I should never say zero chance or aliens or zero.

2:03:56But as you go down the logical chain, as you go down the evolutionary chain of say alien technology, as you say, could they be communicating with us? Well, we only know of these three different ways that they can communicate with us. There's three things I brought here, you know, the meteorites, they could send objects, trash, ovvy love things, these are trash, you know, he went to Papua New Guinea, he scooped up some of these little fragments of a meteorite, you should definitely have them back on, you're a phenomenal episode with him. He and I had a conversation very technical, but you know, I like to think I can compliment some of the cool stuff that you do by going deep into the astronomy so that my colleagues are actually get, you know, some interest out of it too.

2:04:33But when we think about craft, now you're not sending things other than sending neutrino beams to us, or sending gravitational waves to us, or sending light, those are all things that propagate near the speed of light. This is very slow. This is very, very slow to get this here that, you know, took thousands and thousands of years or just orbiting around our earth. But even if it came from another solar system, we have no idea where it came from. I'm going to stop you because you went way off track a little bit. You said, I want to be clear on what you're saying. Do you think there's no possibility for alien life in the universe?

2:05:10I think it's, I didn't say it's no problem, I think the problem is very low and I can explain. Yeah, please. So if you ever heard of the drake equation, yes. Yeah. So the drake equation is essentially a parameterization of our ignorance about certain things in the universe. And we've kind of checked off seven of the terms and the eight terms of the drake equation. Thanks to new technology, thanks to new telescopes, how many stars have planets around them? How many? It's total. But there's a couple terms in there, the lifetime of a civilization and a certain fraction of how much that civilization can dedicate its energy or what have you towards broadcasting its presence, right?

2:05:50So for us to know that they exist, they have to they have to have made technology for us for them to exist and when they have to exist in the first place. So how many of such objects are that's what's drake equations really parameterizing? Now, I propose that you should be able to do the following thing. If there's life in the universe, just life, slime mold, I don't care what it is. You should be able to set limits on it in the following sense. And what I'm going to do is do a ridiculous ad absurdium. I'm going to prove I'm going to motivate, hopefully I can't prove, but I'm going to motivate the logic or of suspecting that they're extraterrestrial intelligence civilization.

2:06:29Okay, here it goes. I told, let me just tell you, my colleagues discovered that there's a planet and it's around a star that's just like our son. And it's next to another planet and that planet's full of life. And the other planet's almost identical to that planet. It's almost the same size. It has a day, the same age, the same length as the day of the planet that has just rotten with life. It's crawling with Kardashians and slime molds and whatever, right? Okay, so it's out there. Just like us. Yeah. And I said to you, Joe, what do you think the odds are that those two neighboring planets that are there's no reason physically they shouldn't both be identical?

2:07:07What are the odds that the other one should not have life? What would you say? With the same environment? It's same solar system environment, same properties, rocky planet, had liquid water, it has an atmosphere, it has a magnetic field, you know, has all sorts of things that would think it would be more likely that it would have life very likely, yeah, extremely likely. Okay, now let me tell you that that planet exists. It's called Mars and I brought you a piece of it here. Okay. This is a fragment. Okay, so this goes in order of expense. Okay. So this, this I give these things I give away, that big meteorite is a present for you.

2:07:43Thank you. This is a piece of Mars. This I only give to you. I don't have one for James. That's an actual piece of Mars. That's an actual piece of Mars. So from an asteroid? So what happened was the earth gets hit by meteors all the time. And, but so did all the other planets. Sometimes some of that material from Mars gets impact. Imagine something that big that Jamie showed before slamming into it's going to eject it from the surface of Mars. That's going to orbit in the clouds of Mars. Eventually going to get outside the atmosphere of Mars that the impact is great enough carrying some of the debris, the surface to crust of Mars, and that will then percolate throughout the solar system for tens of millions of years, perhaps until the earth smashes into it.

2:08:21And it lands. In this case in land in Africa, that was recovered from Africa. That little third of a gram is a slice off a bigger chunk. Okay. And not only does that piece of Mars doesn't have any signature of life on it. And we've been to Mars. We've stuck probes into Mars. We have a helicopter, freaking helicopter flying around on Mars right now. It's insane. We don't see anything. Now that doesn't mean that life didn't exist there before. It doesn't mean that if we don't fly into a lava cave, it won't be. But does it not say something? This is called pan spermia. Something that sounds dirty, but it's not.

2:08:58Yeah. So we exchanged material. And actually for Fred Hoyle, the guy who came up with the idea for the name of the Big Bang. He actually believed in the steady state model. He believed that's how life was seeded on Earth. The fact is that we've been exchanging material for literally billions of years. From when the Earth was just bacteria and Mars was flowing with water. We know Mars was rich with water. Now the fact that we don't see any is that proof it never had absolute and not. But I'm just saying it's a piece of evidence. And that evidence is very hard to come by. It's hard to prove a negative.

2:09:31It's hard to say that Mars definitely never had life. Can I stop you then? Yeah. How much detection do we have? I mean, how much technology is currently on Mars that's looking at signs of life? There have been probes and viking and so forth. How many of them are capable of detecting signs of life other than physical signs? All of them have had some capability for precursors to life. In other words, some have been able to detect water. Some have had spectrometers that could detect gases. Right. How many of them are landed? Probably 15 or 20. And Mars is, what is it? How much smaller than Earth?

2:10:05It's a little bigger than the Moon. So it seems like a lot of space that we didn't detect things on or didn't even visit. But isn't that the converse of the usual argument that I hear? There's 100 billion stars in the Milky Way. Many of them are like the Sun. There's 100 billion galaxies or more like the Milky Way. So it's 100 billion squared. The universe is 13 .8 billion years old. So what are the odds? So usually astronomers will say we'll do calculations of following way instead of like asking what's the probability of that. You know, for example, I've been to Antarctica twice. I've been to South Pole, which is you would just be born out of your mind, probably, because all it is is like going out into the middle of the Pacific Ocean and freezing it.

2:10:52There's nothing to do there. The coast event hurt because it's really cool. So this is a rock from there. They have volcanoes there. That's not for you, but that one I got to take back because it cost me 50 ,000. It cost you the taxpayer 50 ,000. Wow. But this you can keep. This is from the South Pole's gift shop, Joe. That's a patch in the United States. We have such cool, freaking scientists, man. Our country and the world. I just heard something I was like, I wonder if Joe knows this. I totally ran them. Just look how cool is freaking science. It's pretty cool. Do you know they can measure, I'll get back to your question and just say, they measure like the stress levels of whales.

2:11:30And they can use the stress of whales to determine if like the Soviets are, the Russians are testing bombs under the ocean floor. I like what the hell? I heard this talk recently. The woman studying whale ear wax. So whales don't have ears like ours to stick out. I know and that'd be good for like swimming around. I do a lot of friction, but they have like these vestigial things because they like evolved from wolves. I always thought like stuff came out of the water and that whales evolved into wolves. No, they think that wolves turned into whales. Really? Yes. Yes. I don't know. This Jamie Hatspilk because I am a total ignoramus, but this is a going theory that whales evolved from wolves.

2:12:07So like most mammals, they have ears. Those ears have been covered over. And what happens to a whale is that it retains earwax. And there's earwax in the whale. The whale isn't here with its ears. It hears through its jawbone and that reverberates and that's how it senses sound. It still has vestigial earwax. They sample the earwax of dead whales and they can measure how much cortisol is a stress hormone. And they know the migratory patterns of the whales. Science is, and they do some of this research in Antarctica. So anyway, that's really fast. We're kind of getting off top. I know. I'm definitely going to understand how you can look at all of the variables that are possible in terms of the composition of planets, in terms of temperature, in terms of also different kinds of environments for life that we haven't encountered yet, but could be real.

2:12:56Different kinds of life, things that are very, very alien to what we perceive of as carbon -based life forms. I just don't understand how you're looking at one planet that has a very different environment than Earth. Even though Earth has life and it doesn't and using that one example to sort of dismiss the possibility that in the insanely vast universe that there couldn't be something that's very similar to the conditions of Earth. Yeah, no. That 100 % right, you're 100 % right. And I'm not saying that. I'm not saying there's, I'm ruling it out. I'm saying there's what's called evidence, prior information.

2:13:32Right. And you should be able to say that how likely it is, you should be able to run a simulation, say, for every time there's a planet that's rotten with life like the Earth, there's some odds in the overlapping communal history of those two planets in a binary planet system that they should share life. And then you get a number. I'm not saying I know that number, but you should be using that as information to sort of say how, what is the fecundity, how likely is it for life to get started? And once it starts going, I believe evolution can take over, but you just keep, you know, kept this notion that because the universe is so vast, but the reason I brought up Antarctica and these whales, and I know it sounds totally relevant, but I've been there twice.

2:14:12Okay, there's four different animals that I've seen in an archive. Okay. And either these giant seagulls called skooas, they'll freaking rip your face off if you leave it out. You know, they're just nasty birds. Okay. There's penguins and on the continent itself. And they're seals and then there's people. Okay. So this is one seventh of the continents of Earth. There's almost no other life on Earth, but imagining you could make the same argument, the Earth is so big, and like wherever there's a continent, there should be life. You don't see cities in Antarctica, you don't see other, not even like other people, you don't see like, well, there's still neanderthals down there.

2:14:50There were dinosaurs there at one point, but I'm saying right now. So just by saying that there's the large number hypothesis is that there's so much possibility that that leads to probability. That's a logical fallacy. Just because there's a large number, there's a potential if Earth didn't exist. But Earth does exist and humans do exist and Earth is rich with life forms. We know that it's possible. That's true. We know that it's possible given the parameters that Earth enjoys. That's why I say if we know that there's an insane amount of planets out there that could replicate this environment.

2:15:24Right. So wouldn't you then say again, if you knew that life is so incredible, there's these extremophiles that live in volcanic vents, 3000 meters under the ocean. So again, you have to say like what are the odds that we would not see life on Mars or on Encelad? And I'm not saying again, I'm not saying there's no it. But it's just Mars. It's one example and it could be that life requires a very narrow window that we enjoy. Sure. Maybe. But look at all the other factors that go into life existence on Earth that we talked about Jupiter before. There are scientists that believe that without Jupiter, we wouldn't be here because Jupiter is like a big vacuum clean.

2:15:59There are scientists that believe that if the moon wasn't as close as it is, you know that the moon is exactly the same angular diameter as the sun from the Earth. Do you know what that implies for you? And next April 8th when I come and visit you again, there's a total eclipse of the sun. Oh wow. So I'm going to take you if you're willing. Yeah sure. That sounds like a lot of fun. It'll change where we go. Yeah, we're going to go out the San Antonio. Oh nice. We're going to drive. It's easy. Okay. We'll fly again. I'm going to fly. It's only a 90 minute drive. It's not even 90 minutes, right?

2:16:28Have you ever experienced a total solar eclipse? I didn't experience it because I remember was it Donald Trump that was staring at the sun? Wasn't it? It was. It was. It was. I'm not going to be that guy. I think I did try to look at it. Yeah. Now that I remember. But I didn't come through here. So anyway, no, it was in California. If you were to see it, you would the experience that you had on on a can. We'll seem like, you know, like you're just going down to the to the bar or something. Really? This has changed your life. Okay. I'm in. This will change your life. Damn it. We told everybody we're going to San Antonio in April 8th.

2:17:01It's going to be a real problem. Well, we'll find a secret place. Yeah, exactly. I'm going to show up. So, okay. The reason I bring that up is because it happens to have the exact every scene that they the far side. There's no dark side of the moon. There's a far side of the moon. It's riddled with craters. Guess what? Each one of those is a target is a secret service agent that took the bullet for us. Okay. Any one of those could have exterminated. Yes. The fact that we did have a huge impact 65 million years ago that led to the advent of the mammals to replic to replace the dinosaurs. The fact that we have internal terrestrial magnetism that then allows cosmic radiation to avoid impacting the earth where the population is the largest of all species.

2:17:43The auroras are in the north. They're not in the equator. We don't see them here. The existence of play tectonics, which is lubricated. The going theory about play tectonics, I don't know if you've heard this, but that they're it's actually there's lubricant. You've ever heard of like dry graphite is lubricant that like you put in guns or whatever. But that the continental shelf is moving over these things. They think that that's a precursor requisite for life. Okay. Let's do the following very simple calculation. I mean, there's eight things. You're God. You say to have an iPhone, you're going to need eight things.

2:18:17I think there's like trillions and trillions of things. But imagine there's eight of them. Okay. And imagine each one that the earth has a moon that's just the right distance to have tides to slash biological material back and forth from the earlier. And that has play tectonics. That's two. That has a Jupiter nearby. It eventually hits gets hit by a chicksalub meteor that kills off the big dinosaurs. It has a diurnal period that's compatible. It has a magnet. Okay. Let's just say there's eight of them. Right. Let's say each one has a probability in your God -like cosmic roulette wheel of one in a thousand for each one of those eight things to occur.

2:18:53One over 1000. Now if you take that probably, I think it's zero. It's like one over 10 trillion for some of these things, right? Now take each one of those. So take one over a thousand, raise it to the eighth power. You get one 10 to the 24th. Guess what that number is? What? It's the same as the number of stars in the whole universe throughout history. In other words, one thing only eight different things that had to occur to make life in my simplified God computer on the jome of rouganis controlling. And we, the probability of those eight things only is only one part in 10 to the 24th. Then the problem is you're multiplying a large number by a number that's completely unknown.

2:19:32The probability that all these events could line up to make life. And you're saying anything comes infinity is finite. Right. I don't agree with that. Right. But we're not necessarily saying that. First of all, is it conceivable that there would be solar systems that don't have the sort of asteroid and meteor activity that we do? Of course. Yeah. So wouldn't they maybe not get as pelted by asteroids and meteors and have more time to develop? Isn't that conceivable that there could be a different kind of, if we find so much variety of life, like we talked about the volcanic vents and isn't it possible that there could be other ways that life could form in different environments that may be hostile to biological life on earth, but not to whatever evolves there.

2:20:20Of course. Talking about an infinite number of variables. We're talking about so many different planets. But why is it that the large number, or, again, that's the Carl Sagan, you know, if there's no life in the universe, it's a big off -a -waist of space. But that implies a team. I don't think that's true. I think that's what it said. Yeah. Well, I believe that he said that. I'm not saying he didn't say that, but I don't think that way at all. I think we're so silly to think that this finite thing that we call biological life is the most significant thing. And something that we know is at least 13 whatever billion years old.

2:20:54That's so insane that human life, which is just like this never -ending cycle of birth and death with this one particular organism, that that thing is the most important thing that's going on in the fucking universe. That's so crazy. As much as I love people. I know, but you don't have any evidence for that, right? I mean, there's the... What do you mean, evidence for what? You know, I mean, you can't say that we are not alone, right? You can't say we're not alone. But I mean, it's just the idea that that's the most important thing. The biological life is the most important thing. I mean, I'm coming from a religious perspective, right?

2:21:29So I'm going to say that we believe that humans have infinite worth and that we're made in the image of God, right? That we have God -like abilities. So how many other God -like things could there be in the universe? Maybe that. And again, I don't want to say that Brian Keating, Astrophysicist, believes that there's definitely no... I believe that there could be life. In fact, I believe that there is life outside of the earth, but I think it came from the earth. Interesting. Through Pantheir. Yeah, interesting. You mean in the whole universe itself that it's come from the earth? Even the most.

2:21:59And I think you had Adam Frank, professor at University of Rochester, on about five or ten years ago. He taught... He does a following calculation. He basically proves that it's likely that we're not the only technological civilization in the universe over the universe's history. And I love Adam. I don't like who gives it. You know what? You know what he's saying, Joe? Who gives it? Everybody. No, no. Listen to what he says. He said that there was at least one civilization with the probability greater than zero out of the one, 10 to the 24th power, a trillion, planets and stars in the universe, that there's been one civilization throughout 13 .8 billion years.

2:22:37That doesn't mean in our solar system, it doesn't mean in our galaxy, it doesn't mean in in drama to the small, natural, and in clouds, it doesn't even mean right now. It could be that life could have formed a hundred million years after the Big Bang and is gone. So is it relevant to you? Like it's unknowable. I'm saying it's an... What he's saying is that best. It's unknowable because we can't contact the species that's extinct. We'll never travel to a place that's beyond a few light years from earth. And so then you can say, of course, well, why don't we think that there are more laws of physics than we even know about?

2:23:08Of course, if we lived a hundred years ago, we'd think there are two laws of physics. So I don't want to be arrogant. I don't want to say I know for sure. That's why I will never say that. But I'm saying right now, if you had a bet, if you had a bet and there's some kind, you would make that bet. Yes, there is life. And maybe you even bet there's technological life, because maybe you believe that there's, you know, that there are extraterrestrial beings that are visiting us, or perhaps there could be the possibility. You would say yes, I would say no. And I would say based on what evidence can you say that there's life outside of the earth and say right now, there's zero evidence.

2:23:38You would have to admit that right? There's no evidence. There's no evidence, but a lack of evidence. It's not evidence that it doesn't. That's just absolutely true. So when you are seeing all this UAP disclosure talk, all stuff, what does your take on this stuff? So I've talked to people Ryan Graves, he found on I've talked to actually did a podcast with his wingman, one of his former Navy pilot. I listen to it. Yeah, good. Thanks. It's very good. Yeah, I shouldn't say thanks before he said it was good. That was very good. That's very, very interesting. I appreciate what that put that on my resume.

2:24:12So they, so we talked in and remember earlier, like two hours ago, I was going to ask you for advice and I'm just I'm such a blah, blah, blah, I didn't get to ask you for advice as a podcast. Yes. We advice I want to ask you is when you're talking to somebody. And for one reason or another, maybe it's your past history, maybe it's researches, you've done independently that even an expert hasn't done. And you're thinking this person's wrong. Yeah. This person like mistake has never happened to you. And if so, how do you deal with that as a podcaster? It's complicated. I mean, I always do or try to do my very best to let someone express himself fully before I interject.

2:24:48And but there are some times we have to say that's not true. This is not what you're saying is been disproven. And this is like we should show how it's been disproven. Or you know, you could be talking about something that I'm an expert in. Like if someone wants to bring someone wants to like from UFC, for example, somebody wants to say, no, there's only if you wanted to fight in the UFC, all you need to do is learn kung fu. If someone said that, I don't know, I'd be like, you're out of your mind. Or it says fake wrestling. Right. Yeah. You could say you're totally full. Well, that's someone that's delusional.

2:25:20But I mean, I mean, anybody watches the fight. Yeah. But but seeing, but if someone had like this very distorted perspective on something that I know a lot about, yeah, maybe I would be like, you shouldn't say that because that's this is why that's not accurate. So I'm talking to Ryan Graves. And I've talked to Lieutenant Andy Trick, who is the wing woman, I guess you'd say of a command of David Traver. Who you I've talked to them. And I've talked to them. Okay, look, I'm a pilot. I feel a little obsessed. It's not going to be like, you know, I'm talking to super horned pilots. I'm like a schmuck, right?

2:25:54But you know, when you see things like I'm told, like, I can't question them because I didn't serve in the military or they have great hand eye coordination or they're trained observers. I actually know my flight instructor told me a couple of things. He said to me, he said, you relying on hand eye coordination, are you relying on your innate abilities as a pilot or your, you know, your ability to perceive things is going to get you killed because and he wasn't like some military pilot. All my stuff father was, but, but the point being, you're trained not, you're trained to ignore your senses and pay attention to your instruments.

2:26:26Therefore, the human factor is irrelevant. Like the fact that he can land on an F18 on a carrier at night in the middle of a typhoon doesn't have anything to do with the fact that like he is not necessarily better at judging evidence versus me as a scientist or even as a lay person. Okay. Okay. So we're talking. And then I hear things like, well, he witnessed this or he saw this or he has data about this. And by the way, he's been to my house. I've had him for Shabbat dinner. You know, and I like Ryan a lot and I like Andy trick and I and framer sounds are okay. When you hear them say things and then they will say things like you and Eric talked about.

2:27:02Okay. They're defying the laws of physics or these things cannot occur within what we don't understand about physics. Right. They're not physicists and I'm not a pilot. Okay. But we can use our various skills. When I see things like he saw this. No, he didn't see it. He didn't claim to see it. And even in interviews, Ryan Graves did not see anything without his eyes. He saw things on radar with a system that was newly upgraded in the super hornet Mark D that he was flying. Okay. Recently upgraded. Yeah. Doesn't mean it didn't happen. Uh, framer and uh, D trick when they were flying. They, uh, you know, saw things and they tried to perceive them from great altitude, something the size of a school bus, you know, and how fast it was moving relative to the ground.

2:27:41Okay. Then there's data. Then there's things from the Princeton. So I've looked into these things. I know the limitations. I know. Well, off a lot about radio technology radar sensing. Um, uh, so I don't think that being a military pilot as much as I don't have the balls to do what any of them do. And I never had the guts to sign up to the military. Well, I might have liked to. Um, doesn't mean that we accept what they, what they say uncritically. And in doing that, it doesn't mean it's unpersuasive. I don't mean to say that it's not important. It's very important and very significant what he's doing because I think at best, at worse rather, it could save lives of pilots.

2:28:15If it's some shiny spy balloon, it could be American cyOp, it could be doing all sorts of things or grush. I don't know if you've talked in. I haven't talked to you claiming, but non -human biologics, which is like, you know, non -cow animal. Okay. What does that mean? Is a is a slime mold in my favorite thing. What did you think of the So this is the tech tech or the yeah, yeah, so this is going back 2004 and by the way all these things occur in military Pond of the her military areas Very important point what's happening with Ryan and I flown through that area You know you can fly through it if I take up my little sessna.

2:28:51I will fly you through this warning It's not something like secret thing where area 51 is blowing up stuff and you can Alien art is there restricted airspace out there though You're not it's a warning area which means that if you go into it you could and being you could be intercepted But for fun and that's not for fun for training. So what an f18 will do it. Jesus Christ. They're gonna practice on you That's how they train their radar systems. Oh my god. They got to practice on you if you fly your little fucking propeller plane You know how horrifying that would be If those dudes just buzzed up on you at a fighter jet serious kill Oh my god and those things are so fucking fast.

2:29:28They're fast. I flew with the blue angels once you did Yeah, it was amazing. It was amazing. It's a puke Yeah, I did I did puke I did puke and I was so embarrassed because I'd gotten through seven and a half geez and I made it You know from hooking you know the thing you do with your You're forcing blood into your brain and I did that at seven and a half geez And then I failed to do it on a lesser turn and I blacked out blacked out Yeah, I just fucked up. No, it wasn't like hey his was crazy. He was in one of those Centripses. Yeah, that that thing's insane. What I did was I could have survived that when easier It was not as bad, but I didn't do it in time.

2:30:06Yeah, and it was like it came upon me so quick And then when I came out of it I threw up this guy has her leaves is a great guy. It's wild because it's like an elevator door You can't you see the black closing on the sides Like literally like an elevator door and it's almost like you're forcing the door open like Hoot hoot hoot hoot when you're doing that you're forcing that blood into your head and it keeps you conscious Have you ever been knocked out? No never been unconscious. That's why. Yeah, I am another thankfully But my kids again, everybody can be I just haven't been hit the right way by the right person That's right, but I got him seemed a lot of them.

2:30:40Yeah, but the the point is that like that If you're dealing with like that kind of speed is fucking insane But the thing that they're describing that Ryan Graves is describing is something that's able to stay stationary at 120 knots of wind The thing that the commander framer and what the radar detected was that this thing had gone from 50 ,000 feet to 50 feet in a second Okay, so what would happen if that happened? You're actually holding right over there What would happen if that happened yet any kind of material right traveling through the earth's atmosphere Right, such a speed would be at least illuminated and at least probably be incinerated, but okay So then the argument becomes well, maybe they have advanced metamaterials that we don't have access to okay So you can keep adding things onto it.

2:31:22Yeah, which is exactly by the way what this guy goop done the galaxy thing did He keeps adding if you keep adding parameters to your theory in order to make it fit observations Okay, otherwise don't yeah, but observations back by data and this data is from these very advanced military detection systems That did detect this physical object that was witnessed by two fighter jets Isn't another possibility that there's some method of propulsion that doesn't it's not propulsion at all Instead it's manipulating gravity manipulating whatever the fuck it's doing to go from one point in space to another point in space Almost instantaneously, but not biological Not like a physical thing inside of it.

2:32:07I'm talking about like a drone Okay, so the reason you've heard or I mentioned this chick's a love which is the meteor career after you could tampon in Sula that was the theory and which that was kind of Unveiled was a physicist nuclear physicist Nobel Prize winner named Louis Alvarez who plays a small role in Oppenheimer That you'll see and that He was responsible for radar in the world war two as part of one of his jobs And he realized something that they could do so radar works by interrogating an object with radio frequency waves that travel at the speed of light and bounce off an object and you can get Timing between when they Get bounced off and when it comes back and you can measure the distance to them and you can measure the speed if you get a couple those measurements How radar works and it's totally similar in concept to what I just what you described with the the advanced military instrument Louis Alvarez was a creative Incredibly brilliant scientist when he was working on that plan He knew that the Germans and the Japanese could have similar technology And in fact they were starting to develop it Turns out the allies were good at not only the Manhattan Project, but they were good at developing radar and both were the technologies or crucial But the Germans were developing it too He realized there's something called the inverse square law Which is that the signal gets weaker not as the distance away from it, but it gets it gets diminished by the distance to the second power Meaning that if as you go away from something the gravitational force that you feel if I double the distance is four times lower That's Newton's law of gravity and the gravity force decreases is inverse square It also holds for radar reflections So Alvarez said I could spoof the Germans by intentionally when they send me a signal I'm going to send them a signal when I'm coming closer to them I'm going to take their signal.

2:33:46I'm going to diminish it. I'm going to shoot it back exactly as the inverse square because he knew how far away They were too So he spoofed them and he transmitted the signal so even though he was getting closer They thought oh nothing to worry about he's getting farther away and then the planes would blow up the the radar sites and then they'd be blind Okay, and now that's just one example now. What would the German radar operator have said that object to fight the laws of physics It was getting closer, but my radar showed it getting farther away I'm not saying that's what happened Joe But haven't I provoked a little bit of a doubt that maybe there could be other explanations or other than alien technology Now, there was you combine I don't necessarily think it's alien.

2:34:26What do you think it is? Um, I think it's no. I think there's a there's a real issue with it being in these areas of heavy military activity And I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that the United States has developed some black ops secret project where they've figured out a way to do something with drones that's unprecedented right that I think There's just why when they're talking about it openly as soon as they start talking about it openly uh crafts out of this world I smell bullshit Like I said I've said it multiple times in the show. I did something about this. It doesn't feel real And I I also gave myself the possibility that maybe if disclosure did happen It would be so preposterous and so strange and alien just in the idea that there's a life outside this planet And that it's more advanced than us and that it's been visiting us forever Maybe that would feel so fake because it's so crazy yeah that it's almost in pot there was there will be no context other than fiction movies So like I wouldn't be able to fit it in anywhere, but it in it would seem fake But that's not when I'm getting out of this when I'm watching all this I'm like man I feel like someone's lying to me.

2:35:41I feel like I'm being duped You know, and I don't know why you don't really spoke to me and I felt sorry because um Again, I haven't met forever and he seems like a patriot and he's got my bigger balls and I do When he got back to the carrier. Do you know what they kept doing? Yeah, they're fucking with them saying you saw UFOs But a lot of those guys had seen them and they not just seen them like one time they'd seen many of them And I just have this idea that if they were gonna do something with some really advanced shit When they do in restricted airspace where the fucking military operates all the time Of course, it like is it as is it weird that it's happening off the coast of Virginia And also off the coast of San Diego was marineries.

2:36:20Yeah, I mean this is like it seems to me that that's more likely But then again Then there's these instances of people encountering these things and The the concept of inter dimension travel whatever that means whatever interdimensional travel I know grush tried to sort of explain that in some sort of a strange way And physicist pulled it apart and said this doesn't make sense. That's not how it works But the concept of exposing other to like wasn't there some What was this? Let me find there's there's something I saved that I wanted to bring up with this time some God was it like a new I'll find it okay, but the point being that there was some new discovery That could lead to the possibility of Travel to other dimensions or at least detecting other dimensions in a matter of what we could conceivably prove that there is Something else outside of what we're physically capable of experiencing.

2:37:25Yeah. No, you're absolutely right in fact beings could come from there Okay, that's where it gets that's next level. That's a wormhole too far Yeah, but but but it is true in fact when I said the inverse square law That is a very very accurate way. Yeah, I sure I'll just I'll just talk about this but the In the in a higher dimensional space than three spatial dimensions plus one time dimension that we enjoy I found it the light and or gravity would decrease with an exponent greater than two And so these black holes that crash together and release gravitational wave energy Again, my friend David Spurgo they've been able to set limits on the dimensionality of space time And it's very very close to two three dimensions of space and from an object that's a billion light years away Joe So yes beyond that anything goes and but but go ahead with your I sent to Jamie.

2:38:12This is the thing It's definitely not my research New for Fucking pop ups new force of nature scientists close on a fifth force. Oh, yeah So what is this they discover mysterious subatomic particles disobeying the laws of physics I just want to look at your face when you get incredibly let down. Okay, here we go Yes, let me down So When we talk about forces of nature so there's four main forces of nature gravity that we're familiar with right And then there's the electric force and then there's the magnetic force and then there's two types of nuclear force One is called the weak nuclear force that's like radioactive decay and then there's a strong nuclear force That's responsible for things like fusion and so forth When we look at these particles we say for each type of force there's a corresponding Object that responds to that force say could be mass like matter like we're made up Oh, and there's a boson and the boson communicates the force to that massive object So the higgs boson is what gives particles mass and that's the that's the mechanism I which we acquire mass and inertia resistance to motion Electrism and magnetism they're communicated by a boson called the photon the photon is the Gauge Carrying force that that propagates the interaction between magnetic fields electric fields charges And then there's strong and weak nuclear forces without again This is saying that there seems to be a new Calculation a new new data that's been discovered in what I called muons and these muons have a relationship between their charge and their spin And that charge spin relationship for one reason or another should be exactly in a ratio of two So there's spin versus their their chart their magnetic type of property to their spin and so this Little dreidel your last one your last pieces of gifts here.

2:40:00So there it goes there I don't know Dreidel. It's a it's a top see how long you can get that to spin for Okay, so what they're showing is that so see that thing is not only spinning on its axis But the axis is moving around Joe. Yes, that's called precession that precession for a muon You can think of as a little tiny spinning top also And that will have a special relationship between its magnetic properties as it's spinning to its physical angular momentum Which is what this thing is doing. It's like the procession of the equinoxes Exactly wrong. No, no, it's yes, I think you're right No, it's true.

2:40:34Yeah, okay, and now I'm gonna do something else for you. Okay, so you got that to spin for like I will give you $100 ,000 if you can get this thing to spin in both directions Over 20 times this thing that's all I want you to do so what is the direction? What is this thing? Doesn't matter what it is Joe I found it in a crash to you. I know that didn't count you can keep trying I'll give you as many tries you want. Okay, that's one two three four five six seven not do the other way Try it again. What's the best way to do this? I'm not gonna tell you I'm not gonna give you 100 grand. I'm just trying I don't spot a fine money.

2:41:13That was the original way you did it now do it the other way Do it counterclockwise Can't do it. Why is that look at it? It's a symmetrical Isn't that cool? That's just a simple. There's nothing crazy about it. It's called a rattleback That thing has symmetry about one more than one axis and such that when you spin it in the direction clockwise It'll spin forever like the cradle But if you try to spin it the other way it stops And goes back because there's torque being the other way. Wait, that's the first way now do it. That's counterclockwise Well, okay, I think we do it the other way See? Oh, interesting.

2:41:51Yeah, isn't that cool, but to the ordinary eye if I just showed you this Stopps and goes the other direction So muons will have this property that they don't have this exact relationship that's predicted by theory Again, this is what scientists do they have a model for how nature should behave we make observations Now those observations disagree at a very significant level such that the odds of it occurring by fluke chance is about one in 30 million or something like that And so now they're saying the one way to explain it is if there's another type of boson Which would mean another type of force which would be the fifth force for those Capping square at home.

2:42:25So that's all that means it doesn't mean that there's like a wormhole Not that there's communicating through it there are theories like that, but not for the muon experiment. Okay Um, what do you could bring it back to the u a b thing? What do you think is going on? Um Well, you know the Occam's razor approach is is to think about it as you know, maybe it's a it's a it's a variety of sources first of all Grooge where is he from what is it grush? Sorry? I was he and I'd love to talk to him. He seems like an interesting patriotic guy Well, he doesn't have physical experience with anything. He doesn't even have eye direct eyewitness That's what I'm saying.

2:43:00He wasn't he wasn't but he's not claiming he does What he's claiming is that he uncovered these programs that he thinks as a a patriotic American The war end as a citizen of the world that people should know that there's crash retrieval programs and that they are in possession Of biological entities that they keep in freezers again I don't want to I don't want to condemn him I don't want to have any smattering of an anhymminum attack, but I'll say one thing And just you tell me if I'm being in a hall. Okay He was given the opportunity on perhaps the greatest station ever how to name names and to say different things And he didn't name them and I've heard things from like luel's on to indirectly My friend Kurt gemangos talked to many times, but but I've never I've never talked to him but um But they'll say things like I don't I can't do that It will ruin my life and and look job.

2:43:48I'm I'm a coward compared to both of these gentlemen, right? But at a certain level in front of senators congressman women To say like I can't disclose that but you're you're a whistleblower like like you're blowing a whistle You have protection we will protect you we will defend the Yes, but he's not done What he's trying to do is get permission to discuss more things so he has permission to say what he said so far This is according to him, right? He is attempting to get permission to discuss more These are the things that he could have discussed with them in a skiff. That's why he brought it up this way He's trying to do this all by the book and it appears that there's both resistance and support for this Well, this is the argument I have with Avi Loeb When he came on my show he he talked about this object omu omu omu om Which is this interstellar object that he claims is either a junk debris or maybe it's a tourist scout or a spy It's much more reflective rather, right?

2:44:45It has it has properties that can't be explained by the typical astronomical pedantic ways of explaining things and I told him when he came on my pocket and I love Avi I've had a lot of many times. I said Avi, you know You happen to also be friendly Because I said would you go why don't you go after this thing go track it down? Oh, no, no, no He said in a couple of years one of the most ambitious and important observatories is coming online and I'm happy to recommend people that that work on it so you when it comes out called the Viru Rubin Observatory in Chile Far not too far from where my Simon our Simon's observatory is And that observatory he said is going to capture thousands of these things if I'm right And I said Avi what if you're wrong?

2:45:23You know, what if what if this is one time only event? I said Avi I live in San Diego and San Diego has the following Properties it's the absolute best and easiest place to be a meteorologist on the plant except for yesterday freaking hurricane Um and a tornado and an earthquake But it's the absolute worst place to be a sportscaster because we of all the major cities in the United States We have never won a world championship in any sport, okay? So it's horrible so last year then the Padres got into the division Series and I'm a huge podreins fan I should not have said well the podres are in the division series Even though it's first time you know in since 19 since Tony Gwyn was playing and they've been around for 55 years I'll just wait till next year No, no, no, no, I made every I try to get tickets.

2:46:13I scouted that couldn't get tickets Because you don't know if your calculations are correct But if you believe in what you're saying track this thing down and oh by the way Avi You happen to know a guy named Yuri Milner who's already paying your team or in funding you not personally He's funding a team called the break break through star shot have you heard about this? No, they're gonna send Billions of little cell phone cameras to proximate centauri b That's supposed to let Anyway, they're spending a hundred million dollars on it And they're gonna shoot these things there and they'll get there in four 20 years and they'll transmit at the speed of light You'll take another four years to get back to the earth because four light years away Instead of having him spend a hundred million on that why don't you get them to you know Get a little cube sat and shoot it off and go catch up to Oumuamu while it's still in your freaking neighborhood So that's totally possible to do it.

2:47:05It's not it's not he's resisting that because it doesn't Like he doesn't want it to be disproven because he's getting a lot of attention off of this idea This is this interstellar object is something from an alien civilization. I think that's too vinyl I don't think I don't think he's doing it for attention. I just think he's he's he's too in love with his numbers He's too in love with this calculation to in love with the idea But he certainly there is attempt there has to be a temptation to getting recognition Because I had never heard of him until a few years ago and now I hear about him constantly He's in all these interviews and and this is not disparaging.

2:47:39No, no, you know, it's just that there's a there's an impulse that people have to Continue to do something that gets them a lot of recognition. Oh sure. I mean this is this is the number one if he's If he if it's possible to go take a look at that thing how much would it cost to go take a look at that thing? I would probably cost less than a billion dollars saying and this guy that he's friends with is uh Far be it for me to tell a billionaire has been his or money, but I don't think you're gonna talk Elon Musk and to go on looking at it All right, well Elon's another kid So I know you've you've so you have this piece of Mars, right?

2:48:08So he's trying to get the Mars now, right? He wants to die on Mars and hopefully god willing it won't be on impact, okay? That would be horrible if he dies on impact Yeah, but um, but Joe I've never thought like Which one of his ten kids? I mean canine horror. He's got ten kids Who's gonna leave behind like who Like to do that goes to Mars. I think he's like he wants to go to Mars. He said he wants to die on Mars by the time he is able to do this So probably fully grown adults my thing go visit them they go come come with him Apparently the idea is to be able to come back. Just just like okay.

2:48:42I saw the Martian Did you like that? Yeah, I love the Mars Andy. Where is he? You see us the he didn't graduate from UCSD, but he wrote it um, but yeah, but I mean It is possible that one day we will have the technology to colonize other planets, right? Do we have the do we have the reason to do it Joe? What is the reason? This is what I've been wanting sometimes the reason just to be able to do it or maybe to ensure that human race survives if If there's some sort of a natural disaster on earth. Do you know what Nixon wrote on the plaque that went to the moon on Apollo 11? No, what said it? We came in peace for all mankind Yes, Paul should right.

2:49:24It was a war against the Soviets. It was part of the Cold War is a war of propaganda It was important. It did a lot for science. Guess what? We haven't back to the moon in 50 years, right? So if it was so important for peace and for technology why aren't we in the mag? Okay, so to say what we did It's the Edmund Hillary thing, you know climb Everest because it's there right? But um, but Elon has said the following he has said I want to go to Mars so that humankind becomes interplanetary Then you ask I love to keep asking why questions right? Because they're so annoying like your kids keep asking you why you know what the ultimate answer is Because I freaking said so go to sleep right?

2:49:57So with with him I keep asking why why do you want to send people to Mars? Why should a humankind be interplanetary so that the flame of consciousness never gets extinguished Why? Why can't you go into the ocean? Why can't you build bubble cities? Why can't you build floating clouds cities? Well the earth gets destroyed Okay, but why why what why why why what continue with human not just humans and he's talking about human consciousness Which could also mean like AI stuff or whatever But but here's my here's my bigger point you've heard you had Ryan Holliday on recently He's got these momentum more coins, right?

2:50:34Momentum or he means remember you're gonna die allegedly Roman emperors would have some quarters and walking next to them So they wouldn't have too much hubris they would say remember you're mortal you're gonna die That was done to motivate them to suck the marrow out of life while you're alive, right? So my question at some level is well is that true only of individuals? Or like could it be true of a civilization as a whole could it be true that like hey wait We shouldn't be dedicating all this effort and I think it's I wouldn't say it's as as unlikely as life You know having iPhones on proxamist and Tori B But but I'd say it's pretty unlikely that we're gonna do that in the next hundred years to have colonized Mars it's it's incredibly difficult from a technological standpoint from a biological standpoint a psychological standpoint The raw material there's tremendous number of reasons that it sure but technology progresses the way it has since 1800 The way I mean it's unwritten world the world's unrecognizable you could conceivably say That if it continues in the same direction and we don't blow ourselves up We may very well have the ability to do something like that So there's and if you say why yeah, well, why not Well, why not is always a good answer?

2:51:46Right because it's interesting because people want to do it because it would be significant to have Human life living on a terraformed Mars put it on our resume Maybe we could use Mars as a like a test to like how to recharge in atmosphere if we fuck it up Right, but isn't it better just not to fuck it up? Yeah, it is not it is better not to fuck it up But it's also interesting like if why go to the moon why why sense satellites up there? Why why look at stars? It's part of all those things It's part of this human desire to constantly innovate and move forward But I question the Moore's law kind of compatibility and actually you talked about this in the Chiyokaku and he was in his new book about quantum supremacy Which is which is this this kind of faith in these exponential curves and exponential curves are really tricky ammo My foes because you know they sneak up on you for a long time like then they go like this right Well, one of the things that they do after they do this is they do this They come down right you've heard of peak oil and stuff like that right there's only a finite amount of oil Because there's only a finite amount of pre -carbon as file fossil fuels etc But it's it's worse than that as we get more and more Kind of technologically capable we get better and better at keeping the Ponzi scheme going in the sense like the orgrade Of gold used to be like in California 1849 right they would stumble upon a huge brick rock a gold That never happens anymore that the amount of gold per ton is like a gram per ton It's incredibly small and it's going down all these things are going down there all these diminishing S curves They call them they start off really high and so you get the go -go 90 you know and then it goes drops off to zero There's no saying that that might not also happen for both extraction of resources that you need to build a colony on Mars Fuel rocket parts etc But also for the you know the coming AI and computing revolution In other words more laws saturating for a very interesting reason It's not that it's not that the speed of the computers is still doubling But the amount you care about the speed of your computer And I you care about what I can do with it right how fast is the web page load up right well So you can have the fastest computer but it's loading really slowly because there's so many other people that want to take advantage and use that same resource It's in a very highly in demand resource allow what happened with quantum computing too It's already happening with classical super computers in other words their speed is going up But the out number of floating point operations they do is saturating because so many people want to use them because they're so good They're victim of their own success in a certain sense Same thing can happen with mineral so the question is do we get there and if not well What what would that mean would would we have like a civilization existential crisis?

2:54:19I don't know I really don't know But even all the things you just stated isn't that just within our technological limitations as of today And our understanding of how to put together computers our understanding of What technology can consist of in terms of minerals in terms of like stable materials Yes, I know I mean there's but like I said there's only so much carbon in the earth There's only so many prebiologic fossils. Can it be recycled? Can we find new ways to use it? Can't we figure out a way to sure? Yeah, we can but the question is these different things have to overlap and actually I just you know Because I kind of was interested to go back just the uap thing for one minute which was Think about the human factors involved in someone like what would grouch grouch grouch is is describing Imagine that That you have this ability to go back and start with like something happened in 1947 in razzle Which is say something happened definitely happened right So there were some people there that witnessed something they reminded in the military They might have been a research scientist People had to go there and identify it Notify people then people had to go there and pick it up clean it up Bring it in a flatbed truck transport it store it Keep it processed then there's biologics right he's saying there's biologic So the biologics had to be processed by a biologist not by the same A corpsman who collected it then and guess what all these guys have a whims or husbands or bosses or friends and stuff So my friend James Altichard is a very Big influence in my podcast and career as well.

2:55:46He talks about conspiracy number like what's the what's the maximum number of people That can possibly be part of a conspiracy before it gets out right before it's exposed and there's there's also overlap between that and their time skills Right do you talk about a sustained conspiracy if this is to let's give him the benefit of the doubt that this is true and this so So but this is now coming out now and and you tweeted about this or you mentioned this a couple little weeks ago in a podcast I forget with whom What you said the the atomic Age coincided with the age of razzle Yeah, you mentioned that and that's true and there was another thing that happened during that age the quantum age So quantum mechanics which is discovery of forces fields maybe fifth forces and unseen things spooky action at a distance aliens and And then the notion of of atomic holocaust etc Right so all these things are in the zeitgeist at that moment and you're right they nucleate at that same time What if right now is also that time But but how is it because now we're also talking about it like uap's Fifth forces all these other things and now instead of instead of they cold war we have a hot war Right and all these things are united and we have global climate change right I always say there's this concept called the von Karman line Which is the boundary between the earth and the space is about 60 60 miles 100 kilometers above the earth's surface and Basically almost everything that we're dealing with Existentially happens below that line right pandemics covid respiratory atmospheric transmission a nuclear war and the effects of of such a thing on the earth and The things in the uap space that are that are happening and the boundary between earth and space These are all kind of happening and I'm wondering if it's not Sort of related at some level to this kind of being in the cultural consciousness And that's why it's all coming to date because to think about a conspiracy of seven decades Maintain with probably a minimum of a thousand people kept secret There's a probability of that happening But we should be precise about it and we should do count it with that not not dismiss it But also be precise about it Well, it also depends upon what kind of people you're talking about You know if you're talking about only high level military people that have a long history of being able to keep secrets That it's a part of the culture And these are the only people that have access to these vehicles of this thing I could see verbally see While how someone could keep something quiet for a very long time And then you have people that have claimed to have seen these things and worked on these things and It's always hard when you're dealing with the anecdotal evidence and people discussing things and you don't know what's true What's not true?

2:58:21Um, the what what is fascinating to me Is when if you see the go fast video yeah, what do you think about those videos where you there's no heat signature No visible means of propulsion and these things are whipping through the sky I mean you've talked to McWest and other people non non say he's a scientist in the sense that I am But some of these things are you know, there always comes down to like well whose data is it? You know, right? See this is a fighter jet pilots that are seeing these things And they're discussing it play that video so you could listen to their their discussion of it while you they're seeing this thing Mm -hmm.

2:59:00What do you think it is? So when I look at those things there's a couple of different things that you have to look at from an optical perspective from a sensor perspective from a Let me hear them talk yeah So right now we're looking at this video where this thing seems to be trying to tracking it their systems are trying to track it So they locked on to it now So obviously they're freaking out yeah, so they locked on to it with their weapon system. Yeah, so there's nothing called scale invariance which is where you can't really tell in certain phenomena fractals are like the ever seen like the manual Rats that so no matter how much you zoom into it or zoom out of it It looks the same right there lots of features like that one of the manifestations of as the ocean surface There are waves on top of wave.

3:00:07You see in the beautiful Japanese woodcutter. It's like wave and I sure incredible So they're you're seeing a lot of waves, but it's impossible to have any death perception right because we're only getting a single view of it And there's a gyroscopic stabilization to that they're using in the flea system that's measuring it right So there is a heat signature that's how I can see it on flea for the fore looking infrared. I mean propulsion Oh, it's like it's universe. It's not like there's something coming out the back like a jet engine where you could see it clearly So so there have been mock -ups and simulations done for this where it's like you could have a balloon You could have something spherical or something that's that's actually going with the wind can't they detect how fast it's moving?

3:00:42Uh, no, so when that not from that video you can't necessarily from their systems from their weapon systems They can't detect if I like they clearly they were having a hard time blocking onto it So I asked Ariel Kleinerman and and Ryan about this and they said it's class like they wouldn't tell me what their radar is capable of saying Only that they can use it to determine certain properties of things seemed very evident in that video that they were having a hard time Catching it because it was moving at a very high rate of speed This is one two two and four. I think this this video was that one?

3:01:11Yeah, so they they're trying to lock on to this thing and it's moving too fast And you see the crosshair is try to keep up with it and then finally it locks on to it and that's when they cheer That we got it and they say look at that thing go right don't you think they would have an understanding of the speed That something's moving and and not think of it as a balloon. That's just floating around well Remember this is stabilized so they're locking out so they're moving in a perspective Don't don't you think their equipment has the ability to detect speed? Do you know how big the field of view in that thing once?

3:01:41I don't yeah, so we don't I don't I don't know if they I don't know if they released how large they estimated is so I mean This is all leaked video right right so if you were to look through this tells sorry if you were to look through this Telescope at the moon and there was a balloon on the telescope You know floating in front of the moon and you could see it and it was big and I like Chinese by balloon or something like that And it's moving and you're moving and you don't know the relative field of view compared to the size of this object It may appear that it's going if that thing is as a size of an Ember Air jetliner Yeah, that's freaking fast right if this is a size of a balloon being carried by the wind that you are stabilized as an appartial of wind It might not be assuming that there's wind or assuming it's being carried by the wind or not But we're assuming it's being carried by the wind in the same direction We don't know which way the wind was blowing We don't but what my point is that they seem to think that that was very unusual And these aren't guys that are just like oh my god a balloon shoot it Well, that's what I went back to the feeling of pity that again.

3:02:39He doesn't even have pity But but let's say your life you were seeing these things and let's just say let's forget it It's a Chinese war drawn military drone that's coming to blow up the nimits okay or whatever they were on okay And so you then your Your compatriot your comrade comes back to the deck and you put like independence day posters on his rug and you've seen it too It doesn't That's not what I would do if my kid comes to me and says I saw you know The boogie man or so she's like really nervous. I don't say like well, you know like let me tease her about it Like no, not okay I wouldn't do that to my kid But I would definitely do that to my friends if one of my friends said this on the 100 % you would take a rubber alien.

3:03:23I put it in their bed to have it tucked in okay Yeah, but just for fun and that's what those guys were doing to him you're making it seem like they they like Hardly insulted if you were just busting balls. Let me say this your pilot. Let's say you charter a private jet Oh, okay, you're out with Lex and then you're going to Vegas right and and you charter a private jet right You're on the jet the guy is in there as is flying the plane and he you found out that he actually was an expulatory But he did see one of these things and so you get One of your friends your buddies dresses up as an alien Bust into the cockpit and start on the alien You know, I mean that's like a silly comparison I'm just making a comparison.

3:04:03There's a guy. They're life is back But if he comes back from a flight claiming to have seen UFOs and his friends bust his balls this happened many times But that's in the military. That's normal military shit But Ryan saying the opposite now Ryan saying the out and on these people are scared for their safety now Now he's doing the Americans for safe aerospace that he asked to be and part of their mission is to protect pilots Distinguished high -towners with these things right this is the this is the The square in a circle because yeah, the cube around that a sphere is it a cube around a sphere?

3:04:32It could be which way is it a black cube? It's on my video. I made a I made a very expensive thumbnail for my video with Ryan graves A sphere inside a cube So this sphere inside a cube is a repeating theme right they see a lot of these on the east coast on the east coast Yeah, unless you think these things are drones. What do you think these things are? Well, do you remember the Chinese spy balloon? You know that came about yeah recently and do you remember how he didn't shoot it down? Yeah, do you remember when that came about it was like right before this disclosure was about to get kicked off?

3:05:06I mean there's some weird things that are going on there certainly Connect those two things together one thing that moves in a very bizarre way that they can't seem to replicate They don't know how these things like stay stable at 120 knots Well, this is according to all of his equipment unless their equipment totally sucks And this is like the equipment that got upgraded in 2014 right, but then they say I can't tell you about the equipment Right, so but they can tell you that when the equipment was upgraded That's when they started detecting these things So if the equipment is accurate and the equipment is upgraded and then they put it on these jets and these guys are detecting these things And then there's visual Confirmation of these things by multiple pilots and it's a reoccurring thing they see them in the same areas all the time Then why wouldn't the government go out?

3:05:50Why wouldn't they be setting out? I asked Ryan I said why don't they send out sorties every day if they're if they're doing it at nothing less because maybe it's theirs You're right it could be maybe is theirs. You ask shoots down another flying object over Canada. What they shoot down? Yeah, what they shoot down they didn't say this is the uh I'm sure that well I had Mike Baker on who used to see IA and he's explaining all these Chinese balloons Oh, this is from Eric Weinstein shared this yesterday So there's these three different on some of the screen as a map of three different Norage shots That happened from time and like Wow, I don't remember these happening do you know much each one of those missiles cost by the way?

3:06:24No, it's an over a million dollars didn't they miss once yep? Ha ha because you're not like sure that fucking missile go These balloons that people don't realize it when you're at altitude. It's not like this So like the pressure outside is almost equal to the pressure inside So if you shoot it like with bullets and pepper it with that you know bullet it does nothing It's just like opening a door in a warehouse. You have to like bullet detach it from the payload That's why they shot it with a missile. Oh, well, those are million bucks a pop But but I wanted to just get get back to the to the possibility what they are the possibility what they are So so I always have to look for the simplest explanation and what they could be and certainly the simplest exit I don't think anyone would agree with disagree the simplest explanation is certainly not these are interdimensional beings that have traveled across the literally equivalent of you know trillions upon trillions of miles or if you like thousands of light years There are millions of light years as objects only to navigate that whole way and end up being cited off of Catalina island and Newport news of Virginia Maybe they don't care if they get cited.

3:07:23Maybe that's part of their fun. Well, yeah, right So so then then there's a teleological explanation We're trying to propose a mechanism by which that motivates some species or something to do that right now Avi to get back and give him his credit because I don't want to be perceived as I'm Denegrating him in any way, but he is built this Galileo project and I should say I'm not I never got interest in any of this stuff Joe although I do think if it were true You know who should be the most interested in it our physics professors and physics researchers right because if it's Is true that they have mastered there are creatures of master the interdimensional manipulation of space time That would shortcut me and my colleagues four or five centuries right and it would be just a revolution The Nobel prizes you could win right?

3:08:06I think a ten year you get that you were allowed to have access to it right if they do have some sort of a back Engineering program who could conceivably be Qualified to do that. This is where I disagree with Eric. I always say Eric, you know Eric is my atomic clock, you know, they say like a broken clock's right twice a day like Eric's almost always right. I said my atomic clock. So I get a great deal of from Eric But but but you know But when he says that you know these objects, you know that we need where the theoretical physicist studying is I claim you don't really need theoretical physicist to study it Yeah, you might instead want experimental physicists such as myself my colleagues that people that are used to dealing with data with Sensors with actually building technology observing things again observing the skies We've been watching the skies in all wavelengths By the way, you only see it with like visible light how come these aren't showing up only in the radar microwave region the spectrum infrared Why would they choose the narrow band of wavelengths that some marginal species of you know primitive apes You know evolved apes have sensitivity to namely this narrow window.

3:09:14This is infinitesimal You're saying why wouldn't they hide themselves? Why wouldn't there be other modalities in which they're observed other than Visible sightings I witness sightings which in other words, why couldn't they manipulate the the signatures that they travel And may they be neutrinos maybe they could be using gravitational waves who knows but that you don't need Edward Whitten to help you with right you don't need a theoretical physicist you need an experimental physicist an observational Astronomer who's used to looking through telescope we my whole job Joe Staring up at the sky with things like this in all different dimensions and looking for objects that don't seem to make sense or looking for phenomena that have never been observed But why would you assume that they would want to hide I'm not saying they would want to hide I'm just saying they seem to be evasive right so in other words They're maybe just the way they travel is so in saying that you can't really detect they only go on Catalina island and Newport New another well how come they're not over the the observatory that's in western Texas that the University of Some they get spotted over military bases.

3:10:15Well, that's what I'm saying. So does that lead to so the fact if I just told you nothing But they happen to appear in restricted warning areas military areas Would you say that they're and would you say that makes them more likely to be aliens? I wouldn't say that I wouldn't say more likely I would say if I was an alien and I came here to observe a territorial ape with nuclear weapons I would probably check out where the nuclear weapons are I'd be like what are these fucking crazy assholes up to They're blowing themselves up. I drop in bombs out of planes And they have enough missiles pointed each other all over the world to essentially eliminate all life.

3:10:50Well, that's the opposite I think I would look yeah, I think that's where I would look I think I would look over those military bases and I think I'd maybe let myself be known only Shout them all down. Yeah, Mara's were the best We're number one. We are aliens know it. I mean there have been multiple sightings. I'm sure you know about this Yeah, but that doesn't mean if you look at the map of sightings. Yeah, it's far more America It's but it's a very American themed Idea particularly because of Ross well correct and you know that that when Venus the planet Venus is not visible that UFO sightings go down by over 40 percent Oh, I'm sure oh well, I mean you can explain away the vast majority of them and then you could also have there's people that hallucinate There's people that have They have mental health but right down where they actually actually believe that things happen that didn't really happen And some of those things could be a UFO abduction there.

3:11:43There's not we know that people have wild vivid dreams And then we know that the fucking the border to dreams and consciousness is Why all these UFO abduction stories at night? Is it were you dreaming? Bob? Yeah, Bob are you dreaming? Did they really take touch your butt and take your sperm? You know, I mean, it's like We've reached it's not like they happen while you're at work It's not like they abduct you when you go to the restroom and you know and all sudden something hovers outside the window and pulls you through and You know what I mean? I know he's in the middle of the night, but let me ask you this So when I brought this up when I when I first got interested in this it was really I should say you know I have this disposition as you've already uncovered that I don't believe that there's extraterrestrial uh Technology in the whole universe with with high confidence or even with moderate degree of confidence So therefore I certainly don't believe that they are you know, I'm pretty I'm not predisposed to believe that they're alien technology Crafts visiting the earth right right so but when I talk about that and I say look there are these astronomers And they're these people like me who study things and NASA and part of the reason I got interested to take this seriously is my friend David's Burgles isn't my one of my mentors and he's leading NASA's UAP investigation Uh for NASA which didn't report last month and so on Twitter this whole thing is like well How come you're not at the reporting thing and we don't have any reason to trust NASA There's a whole subculture which I think is like almost like denialism Whatever form you want to employ for that, but that won't accept any explanation unless it's aliens and there's a huge subculture right so how should I as a scientist interact with a lay person is educated well meaning perhaps but has this deep distrust of science scientists the scientific method.

3:13:33I mean, I don't think they necessarily have a deep trust of science or Scientific medicine or even but I think there's a large number of people that have invested interest in believing that aliens are amongst us and that UFOs are real and that Disclosure is about to happen partially because it's fun. It's very fun The idea of thinking that there's aliens out there is so exciting. I love it. I mean obviously really I can't get anywhere But I'm also skeptical of Things that just seem fake There's something about this whole thing that seems like a show and it really kind of brings me back to I mean, I'm not accusing people of mind control experiments, but It has been done in this country many many times and one of the big ones was MK Ultra and Abraish had midnight climax where they set up little CIA literally set up brothels and gave these johns of LSD and Monitored them through two -way mirrors We know that there's been siaops before and when there's all this discussion about like out of world crafts and not of this world and We have alien bodies.

3:14:42I'm like, yeah, fucking stop talking show me some shit You know at a certain point in time you're gonna have to stop talking and show me some shit because right now I'm like I don't like the way this sounds. No, it sounds funky. Let's take it in mind This is someone who thinks that aliens are real. No, I know you do. Yeah. I just think there's something about this Like I believe commander David Fraver. I believe him. I believe that he knows what he saw I believe he saw something extraordinary. I'm just not I don't know where it came from Right, so it's the idea that we had something like that in 2004 is even weird Yeah, you're right.

3:15:15That's even weirder because it's like now we're talking about That there's a giant difference between 19 years ago the physics of 19 years ago The our understanding of propulsion technology computing every phone Plethora we didn't have an iPhone we didn't have anything back then we had shitty little fucking flip phones It's such a different world. Well, let me let me have run this by you. So What the United States government did to Native Americans tremendous atrocities right there were too many but there was almost as much done I don't want to say almost there was a lot of Intertribal warfare where we would cause them to fight with each other Yeah, and that was part of our strategy to atomize them and to reduce Their capability to mount some kind of a force against the United States government Which is truly awful part of our history But nevertheless They you know so that there was also a plausible liability well you Indians were fighting against each other too It wasn't like you guys had didn't you know, so I'm wondering at this level.

3:16:12Is there a possibility? I don't I'm not gonna sell out of alien wars fake alien wars to blame or just anything that polarizes us right because that's good for them It allows them to sell you know the Viagra right? I mean something that attracts attention. That's almost impossible to Disregard. I mean anybody who's curious and knows what an alien is or seen an alien. We've seen so much But um, I don't know. I mean, I don't know either I just I feel like if they kept it a secret for 80 years That's very fascinating and if it is real also very fascinating But there's just something about the way this is all being discussed that just feels fake And I don't know why and maybe it's real maybe again.

3:16:54Maybe it is just my natural um, reaction to something that is so outside of the norm that I don't have a context for it I don't have a place for it might also be there's a religious component to it. There's a religious It's a space daddy. It's like yeah, the simulation hypothesis right? There's another one that people just look to and they they act as The explanation where we don't have free will because they don't want to be held to their account I always say these people like Sam Harris and like who doesn't believe in free will I'm like have you ever met someone? I don't know let's give you're met someone who acts as if they don't have free will I'm not talking about someone who's insane like something like imagine Sam Harris like totally rational reasonable brilliant You know intellectual person But like him but he's like I don't believe in free will therefore I'm gonna act in accordance with that belief I've never met somebody like that like right.

3:17:38I'm determined to do this because of the big bang Well, I think it's a complex or complicated Scenario where you're trying to say the determinism is the only thing that Causes people to do things and that you're not responsible or not you're not necessarily saying you're not responsible But that there's you have no choice There's these factors all play a part of it I know that's what seems like yeah a lot of choice It seems like we encourage choice in the right direction. We discourage choice that we feel like is in the wrong direction It seems like it's there's a part of us socially collectively as a group that wants The right choices to be made because we know that people have the ability to make decisions Can I ask you a podcast question?

3:18:21Sure So you've done 2040 30 something jelly yeah more than that when you count fight companions and M .A. Show's yeah, so Have you ever gotten back and listen to like no, okay So this kind of dovetails with with what something Carl Sagan said he said a book is magic because it Lounds the voice of a person who may have died many many centuries earlier Yeah to communicate with you and literally with audiobooks like literally in your e -mail You are with millions of people around the world And I'm just wondered you know like Because I don't go back and listen to my pocket. I've listened to I should not lie I listened to a couple because if like it was a Graham Hancock one and I wanted to reabsorb some of the stuff that he said or Or you know someone's just really interested.

3:19:08Yeah, sure But but it's fair when I'm getting at is you know running a book and like Incaps laying that I mean surely you've thought about it and I'm just wondering you know a book is is something different You know, it's it's really the operating system of humankind whereas audio is incredible But like what are the odds your great grandkids are gonna listen to you know a preponderance of it versus the distilled Wisdom of Joe Rogan, you know put into a book form For for posterity. I don't think about doing that. I'm just very busy You know it's hard to take the time to run people out of I'm not I'm not gonna get any help.

3:19:45No, no, I don't mean a ghost rider I just mean people to like research and like well this thing Thematically it will be you but it would be yeah, I don't know maybe I've banded it about Just I'm trying not to overload you know, I think people get a little too ambitious and I've been guilty of it myself How so like it just doing too many things like I do enough things like slow down What would you concentrate on the things I do more, you know what gives you the most life or most like energy force As far as occupations no no all these things that keep you busy, but what's your like what thing causes time to pass to such that you're in a flow state the most Oh, I don't know if there's any one thing that does You know um, I think it's just All the different things I I'm very fortunate that I have a lot of different things that I like to do you know in terms of Occupation and I have a lot of great people in my life in terms of family and friends.

3:20:45So I'm just very fortunate in that way, but They're all interesting in their own different way. I think they all compliment each other That's one of the things that I like about doing podcasts and doing stand -up and even doing UFC commentary I think they said somehow or another they compliment each other That's something do you ever when you do stand -up? I did um, I was able to do a TEDx talk a long time ago And before I did it, I wanted to get the experience of bombing on stage in front of an audience of possible So I went to the comedy store in La Jolla And I did a set and I only wanted to do it clean because my wife and my rabbi was there So I tried to I did a clean.

3:21:21I had some good jokes. I think That I could work on the audience, but it was after like you know seven women talking about that they mentioned your way this Like I was in the kitchen Was it an open mic? It was open mic. Yeah, it was just two minutes set. I was the last person to go Well, I use my aim material, but anyway, we came out and and afterwards I was like you know what? You know, it was enjoyable. I'm glad I did it. I could say I did two minutes of stand -up, but um Actually, I didn't like the people in the audience I'm there drunk and and like whatever. I mean, I like my wife is there but my cousin Let's open mic night first of all a lot of maniacs in the audience like who's gonna watch some amateurs to stand up No, I know if you have a certain amount of time with your day How many people gonna go watch amateurs just standing?

3:22:07It's like just felt like this like I never felt like I didn't like my students Like I never felt and I'm sure you don't feel like you don't like your audience of podcasts But do you ever when you're doing stand -up? It just seems like there's people in there first of all That people in there want to see you like mess up or heckle or not you but I'm saying one a common comedy club And especially at an open mic night. Yeah, it's the the drags of you man Exactly and on top of that a lot of people that are there are there because they want to do comedy So you're doing stand -up to other wannabe comedians some of them or they're out of their fucking minds A lot some of them like a good chunk right Yeah, and I guess the last couple of podcast questions if you'd indulge me on them um, so You know when I when I think about um, you know the the kind of animating impulse for for me to do what I'm doing and trying to do You know hardcore science and key people interested engaged and give the public some arowine Their money that supports myself.

3:23:02I'm a public, you know, you know I'm at the public college at you know schools. I went to Public I teach it to public school um, you know when I think about it like there's it's it's difficult to get a sense of of you know, pleasing your audience and then also you know doing legit science and I think You know finding that balance for me that's that is hard for me and I don't know like I mean obviously one solution stop podcast. I mean, I'm not gonna stop being a scientist because who I am physically written into my DNA almost why they why would they be incompatible? I guess, you know, it's like I could always be doing real science You know, I could always be for every hour.

3:23:39I'm reading a book of a guest that's coming up I could be doing an hour with you know in the laboratory and so I bet don't you be we've already talked about that What you're doing is very beneficial and then you think that that's actually part of what scientists should be doing I think they look down on it right some of them look down on it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't listen to them Fuck those people. There's always gonna be people that are you know, pureists and there's always gonna be people that You know have negative comments. Yeah, you should only read so many things that people have said about your work Yeah, and I think you get to a certain point time when you're oversaturated and then you get overwhelmed And I see that happen with a lot of people I see that happen with a lot of people that get into that come from academia and then they get into podcasting And they get over what and it's very disheartening.

3:24:22Yeah, but you're not You're you're just dealing with insane numbers. So of course you're gonna have a lot of negativity. Yeah There's no ways around that. It doesn't matter what you talk about Yeah, I've seen some of the most fucking insane takes on some of the nicest people ever It's just you can't you can't do anything about that. There's certain people that are there and that's fine That's part of the way the world works I don't know why certain people like certain kinds of music or certain kinds of art forms It's just like people like different things and when you're talking about whether it's science or comedy or what you're gonna have people That don't like what you do.

3:24:59That's just how it goes and if I could do my last question I'd love to have you on my podcast, but I don't know if that's ever gonna happen. So I get I we're gonna talk about aliens the entire time I would love it Bread and butter man. I would kill like the number number 10 on Spotify. Yeah So I always ask the following question which is related to the name of the podcast I mentioned earlier So Arthur C. Clark had all these quips and some of them really funny one on his like for every expert There's an equal and opposite expert That's true and he would say things especially paid experts and this famous quote of any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic And then the name of my podcast comes from a statement that the only way to determine the limits of the possible is to go beyond them into the impossible And I always phrase that in terms of your 20 -year -old self -advice So like you were going back to Joe and you know Back then you're 20 years old.

3:25:50You know, you had 30 seconds with him Wouldn't gonna tell him to tell him shit. I wouldn't tell me shit. Why I wouldn't tell me nothing Cuz he figured out on your own There's nothing I could have told him You need life and you need a A bunch of people that you interact with and you learn and you keep absorbing information And you keep trying to do a better job at being a human being and you get better You're gonna have to go through it. There's not a goddamn thing I could say to my 20 -year -old self like wow This is the magic thing like it doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. It's a grind It's not like a willy -wank a golden ticket the life is a grind It's a great grind.

3:26:32It's a lot of fun And if you have a lot of fun friends you can really enjoy it but um but Progress comes incrementally with a lot of fucking work and you're gonna have a lot of heartache And there's got a lot of heartbreak and there's gonna a lot of be a lot of disappointment And then there's gonna be a lot of great moments and the great moments don't dwell on them too much We gotta you gotta figure out how to not get intoxicated by great moments and just enjoy it as part of the process And then just keep trying to do whatever you're doing Whatever it is you're trying to do it whether you're trying to do science or whether you're trying to do art Whatever you're trying to do that would be if I give any advice is just like Don't expect this don't expect to hit the lottery Don't ex that shit is not coming and don't expect the fucking golden age of retirement either Don't think you're gonna get to 65 and one day.

3:27:22I'm gonna quit and that's gonna be amazing I'm gonna sit in my porch. No, you're gonna die. Yeah, that's what's that's what happens people They do that they have nothing to do they they get sad they get sad and they get bummed out just enjoy it Just enjoy this fucking thing, but just want to live forever That would be the scariest thing would be doing it all over again Not living alive forever because if you just were like if I like had like look I love life I have a great time if someone said you have to do this forever I wouldn't be terrified to do it like why not it's fun So you're saying I keep doing fun.

3:27:58Thanks for it. Do I keep getting better at stuff? Because if I can keep getting better at stuff as long as I don't physically deteriorate too much And I can keep better getting better at stuff. That would be fun I wouldn't hate it. Just like I don't want to die now like why would I want to why would I not want to live forever like It's a kind of weird sort of way of looking at it because both of them are equally terrifying Yeah, the idea of living forever is terrifying and the idea of dying tonight is terrifying Yeah, I mean I always see these guy young Brian Johnson You know these guys are trying to extend their lives.

3:28:23I'm like you can extend you can live forever And I actually it's possible anybody can live forever But you can't be a greedy SOB you can't be greedy and want your body to come with you and your and your money and your You know the denial of death is why they built these pyramids right? Is that real though? We don't really know why they built those pyramids. Well, yeah I don't know you know that each pyramid has a base the base of each pyramid Joe Is a multiple an exact integer multiple of pie? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know that. Do you know why? Why? Because what they would do is they would measure back then like a survey or they'd measure the distance with a Wheel that would roll and that's the wheel has this conference equal to pie times its diameter So they would get some number of wheel rolls and that's the way the circuit the Circle was their measuring tape basically so they would just count off how many complete revolutions of the circles is this theoretical That's what they believe yeah, no, that's the best ever.

3:29:17There's a lot of there's a lot of like weirdness to the the pyramid Just the mass alone does the three million or two million three hundred thousand stones It was the biggest thing until hundreds of miles away Yeah, not so it was the biggest thing until the I've ever looked into that any of that younger dry impact theory Oh, I mean help me this is the the theory that coincides with the end of the ice age and it's also bad backed up by Course samples where they believe that earth was hit somewhere around 11 ,800 years ago and that All over earth was hit with a common storm, you know that we went through Went through a barrage of large objects and it destroyed civilization and that there was an advanced civilization in Egypt and in many other places where there's actual physical evidence now Mexico.

3:30:05Yeah, well physical evidence now Turkey and go bekley tepe because back then they thought that At 11 ,000 plus years ago was just hunter -gatherers But then they found this gobekley tepe con Conn, do you know about that? No, I never heard of that. It's fascinating because it's like very complex stone structures that are immense and they have 3d carvings on them which is very unique in the like they have lizards But the lizards are 3d on the outside. It's not like they carved into the stone They carved the stone around the lizards and these fucking immense Like structures and then they've only uncovered 5 % of them with lidar.

3:30:40They've found so many more of them That's what the 3d carve structures look like so they carbon dated all this stuff to with the because they were it was Purposely covered somehow or another and they don't know who or why But it was purposely covered somewhere around 11 ,000 plus years ago and they think it was a common I mean that would seem to have astronomical evidence for no the the comment thing is 11 ,800 That's when and and they think again somewhere around 10 ,000 years ago as well But it coincides with the end of the ice age and it also coincides with There's a lot of evidence of a ridium when they do the core samples, you know in that element Yeah, and then also nanodimons from impacts.

3:31:20Yeah, so it's very fascinating because it just speaks to like Maybe civilization Maybe this isn't just this emergence from gingus con to us today Maybe there was like a reset and maybe many thousand years ago like these people that built these structures like There's some people say the lizards are like alien. No, that's there's no alien Loreal this this is just humans that are Yeah, just humans that had reached a very advanced state and then got hit But it wasn't until like this younger dry impact theory that they had all the physical evidence that goes with this And when Randall Carlson discusses is it's very crazy because he talks about just the immense amount of water that moved through North America In a very short amount of time.

3:32:07It just carved massive trails and canyons through through the earth And he think it he thinks it happened because of an instantaneous meltdown from asteroid impact. Oh wow Because we know that the US Alone was half of it was covered in some more than a mile high sheet of ice Up until that point and he thinks that's what caused it Ah, so it coincides with physical evidence through these course samples And there's a bunch of like legitimate scientists that are working on this. Yeah, it's really interesting No, it's not I always say astronomers are kind of like space archaeologists You know we traveled things travel through time and space.

3:32:40Yeah, I have to analyze them and it's really fascinating stuff We don't know enough to deal with the multiverse in the with archaeologists Well, this is man April 8th April 8th We're gonna go check out and you say it's gonna be more insane than that. It'll blow your mind I'm sure it will and I really appreciate you and thank you very much for the meteor and the shitty magnet and the good magnet In the prism. This is dope Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I appreciate your time. Thank you for having me and tell everybody how to get your podcast as well Oh, well, so the best place is Brian Keating .com.

3:33:11That's my website and I have links to Spotify There's called there. Look at you handsome devil. Thank you my brother Then yeah, there's our friend Eric. We didn't talk to you much. Yeah, yeah, he says he sends his best. I talked to him today And I've done yeah, I've done it 14 Nobel Prize winners 15 by beautiful beautiful. Yeah, I'm getting that call and they're very good Thank you very much. Appreciate you. All right. Bye everybody