#2062 - Will & Jenni Harris

38:23Same as chiming up right. They took seawater and broke it down as well as they could with qualitative quantitative chemistry and decided it could determine exactly what was in it. Then where they put it back together a fish wouldn't live in it. Oh that was it. Mmm. But you know what if what happened was not so much it had too much sodium or too much whatever it was that the life was not there. Mmm. There's something else. So there's there's the life is there the. The fact that they evolved together. Yeah. And then there's some organic compounds in the water. Not the same problem with the life that actually living microbes that they couldn't put back in there because they weren't there anymore.

39:08Right. They took it apart put it back together. So you just have sterile sterile sterile ingredients that made seawater. Yeah. Probably like a fish tank but not even right because fish tank has fish poop and all sorts of other things that also have life. Yeah has life and leads to the microbes. Whew. You know people listening this probably feel very helpless. You know because it seems like it's one of those situations like oh my god this is a problem that it's almost like you don't realize there's an avalanche coming because you're you're sitting in the town and you're like oh this is a good place.

39:46This is a safe place but meanwhile there's an avalanche coming and it's just a matter of time before it reaches the town. No. Not exactly. Maybe it's about analogy. Well I said no. I get it. I agree except for the fact that those people sitting in that town there's not a damn thing they can do about that avalanche. It's coming. Right. When it comes to the way we treat our land and water and air consumers have power. You think they can do something about it. You can't depend on the government because of the lobbyist thing, the dark money we discuss that area. It won't be sadly the land grant university system because so much of that funding comes from the huge multinational company that are profiting from industrial production.

40:41I give this a whole lot of things that won't come from. But if it happens it'll be by consumers. Consumers making the choice. This is what I'm going to support. This is not what I'm going to not support. That's the only way it's going to happen. And I don't know that it's going to happen. Well it seems like it would take a massive reeducation of the American public in order for that to take place. And then people would have to be willing to be financially impacted by their decisions. Because it's not going to be, you're not going to be able to get a 99 cent cheeseburger. Correct. And to that point nothing really brings about change except pain.

41:31And I don't think you can educate fat, satiated, full people and get them to spend more money for their food. But if there's enough pain where it comes from health or polluted areas or weather or fire or that then maybe so. And it's also a problem. People aren't aware of the issues. For most people, food is food. They just go and get their food. And then they don't understand the consequences of eating bad food until it's kind of too late. But they're not really supposed to. Who's educating them? I mean if they got to the doctor there's a pill. There's a lot of anti -correlation that's happening where it's like here's a problem.

42:24Here's a solution. And we bypass all the hard work. We want the easy solution. Right. So it's not just that consumers are making arguably wrong choices but uninformed choices for the food that they eat. But additionally, we're big cycles of nature people. We believe that in order to be good stewards of land all of nature cycles need to be functioning. And when they do, they create an abundance. And that abundance is enjoyed by you and I in the form of meat and vegetables and whatever else. And there's been so much intense focus on the carbon cycle. And you think about what you hear from the media.

43:07It's carbon, carbon, carbon, carbon that in reality all of nature cycles are broken. You know what about the water cycle or the mineral cycle or the grazing cycle. You can't just work on one cycle. And so there's just so much misinformation and so much of a spotlight on certain things. When in reality it's so much broader than that. And it's not hard. It's just they're not telling the complete story. I agree with that fully. And I don't think that's an action. I think that the carbon cycle gets all the press because that's the one that somebody can make so many fixing. I agree with you. Yeah and that's unfortunate that this whole green thing has become a political movement.

43:56And it's been a political movement that's hijacked by industry. And they are trying to enforce mandates that will allow them to make extreme amounts of profit. And also to control people and to control their choices. You know the all you read is that cattle or great contributors to global warming, greenhouse gases and all that. And we talked about before there's a scientific study, a very expensive scientific study called a life cycle analysis on our website that shows that we're actually sequestering more carbon in our cattle side of our business than we're putting up. So you know it's which makes sense.

44:37Yeah that's the way it's so one of the differences in those two soils and the ones you showed and the one that you talked about in South America is carbon and my microscopic life in that soil. Which is what makes it dark versus the other one.

44:57So you know in the way you build those carbon rich soils is through proper livestock interaction. That's the way the eight foot deep soils in the great plains came about. So huge here it's a buffalo going through. And it's the reason that those two soils looks so much different. And the one that you showed James showed on the board though. So you know we I think we know a lot more about how to fix the problem than we acknowledge but it's just going to be so expensive, especially for big food, big egg. And ultimately also for the consumer. Because if McDonald's went purely to regenerative agriculture if they had a large scale effort to eliminate industrial farming and get all of their food through regenerative agriculture there's not a chance in hell they can charge 99 cents for a cheeseburger.

45:52You know and I'm not opposed to there being chains like McDonald's but I just don't know how they work with any sort of local food movement. I just don't know how you make that work. Right. And then how do you make it so I mean there's a large amount of people in this country that primarily eat fast food unfortunately that's that's where they get their calories from and you see it because of the health consequences. I mean it's it's a gigantic issue in this country that we if you look at the human beings I'm sure you've seen these photographs of people on the beach in the 1950s and 60s versus 2023.

46:312023 is like it's insane how obese everybody is and that's not an accident that's a direct result of the way we eat and what we eat and where it comes from. It's the same with our animals you know we are you know they go and feed our animals just to blow them up fast and quick with cheap food that's what we do our people too. Yeah. Yeah that is what we do. Yeah. Well in marketing you know we create our own customers you know those people who suffer from obesity and sedentary lifestyles that have diseases and whatever else then we get to sell them medicine. Yeah. And then the medicines called side effects which then we treat with more medicine.

47:14Yeah. So it's so I'm the director of marketing and one thing that I love is you know is just good old fashioned marketing and reoccurring business and returning orders and you know all those things I see how that works you know the very idea that these lifestyles create a certain you know a certain issue which are then prescribed with certain medicines that then create more issues that we treat with more medicines. What a genius plan. That's great. I mean it's terrible. It's well it's terrible for the people and for the environment and you know for what but I mean hell it's great. I'm very profitable.

47:53I'll give you another slide on that. We talked about the changes I made from what I used to do to what I do now and one of the primary changes is from the 30 ,000 foot level is I used to go in my past just every day looking for something to kill. I was looking for a fungus on the grass to put a bunch of side on looking for an insect but it's sex out on looking for another competing weed that I put herbicide on looking for parasites in my cattle on an insect only I was looking every day for something to kill. I was a successful commercial cattleman in terms of profitability and I was successful because I kill stuff every day.

48:45I spent money to high tech companies to kill stuff. Now since I made the change I'm trying to keep things alive. I believe that all these species have a role out there and I want to keep things in balance. We're trying to keep things alive. We're not trying to kill any of it. You're trying to create like a contained natural environment. Symbiotic relationships between the animals. That's a now a good thing with the food situation. And that's what the whole earth should be. That's how it evolved. Yeah and it's just recently within the last like how many years that was done it this way. Since World War II I thought about that a lot, read about it a lot.

49:31I think World War II is kind of when we started the change. Because we needed food. Well actually I should say at the end of World War II but yeah we needed the food so there was demand to produce it. And then World War II's war effort gave us so many tools. The munitions manufacturing became fertilizer manufacturing. The nerve gas became pesticides, onanum. How do you unwind all that? That's what's crazy. You know when you're dealing with 80 plus years of this going on. Like how do you unwind that? And how do you, I guess you do it through conversations like this initially. To get enough people aware of how big of a problem this is and how bad it is for everybody.

50:23Three generations and three is a dollar. There's so many people making so much money on this. We think about you probably won't be here in 80 years. I know you're the specimen of health in your, you know, maybe so but your kids will be. And so I didn't really focus on it until I became a mother. And you have a son and a daughter and my sister has kids. It's like all right we can probably keep it in between the ditches. I'm 37. Maybe I'll make it to 75. So we can probably keep it in between the ditches until then. But what type of world are we leaving our kids? I mean do you, your kids, you know, I mean, they're going to inherit something way the hell worse than you did.

51:09It's going to get worse. It's not going to get better. Way worse. Unless enough people make this decision that you made. Unless enough people take control of their health and start changing the way they eat and where they source their food from and caring. And you know the title of your book, a bold return to giving it down, which is a great title. One farm, six generations in the future of food. When you set out to write this book, I know that this is an important message to you. But how has this been received so far? You know, we don't get too much feedback on how many people were buying the book.

51:51It's out there, but we don't get it. Jenny, you can ask that question, but I don't need you. So you know, when when dad started talking about writing a book, we were like, oh, there's no way. You know, his brain is truly cyclical just like the farm. There's, you know, birth growth, death decay, birth growth, death decay. Where do you start? The chicken or the egg? Who came first? And for him, you know, we had talked about him writing a book for a very long time. And honestly, nobody knew where to start. And so he was approached by, you know, some folks who said, hey, we think, you know, you'd be a great book writer.

52:33And dad quickly told them there's no way I can write a book, no way in hell. I don't know where to start and where to end. And so we'll let us help you. So they found a ghost writer named Emily Grieven, who is great. And she and dad had phone dates every Friday for probably a year that lasted anywhere from two to four hours. And in listening to the book, dad narrated it. And it is like a glimpse inside of his brain. It is such a, all of his thoughts are there. And you know, I think it's so important because, you know, dad started a business and a mission that is going to last a lot longer than him.

53:16You know, he's 69 this year. And, you know, the food system is not going to be fixed. You know, by the time he is gone. And so to be part of that and to be part of a business that's, you know, bigger than one person, bigger than one person's life that lasts, you know, lasts so much longer. I think it's so important. And people like him have got to focus on that. You know, he can't fix the food system. He has to set the groundwork for people like you and I to fix the food system and then to instill it in our children to fix the food system. What was the motivation to write this? You know, I felt like people needed to know what I spent the last 25 years learning.

53:57I'm not the only one that knows it, but I'm the only one that has this particular slant on it. I knew I couldn't write a book, you know. I went to the University of Georgia and majored in agriculture. We didn't read many books. We certainly didn't write a book. When they approached us about writing it, it just seemed like the thing to do. And I give so much credit to this email engraving that Jenny reference who wrote it. Do we actually wrote my thoughts on the paper? And do you think it was a one -time deal? I know, I know, down. It took me six to nine years to look at this shit to put in that book.

54:44How much of a time? It seems like another book though someone should write is how this can be fixed. And what steps need to be taken. And I think it needs to be taken for sure. It needs to be taken at a governmental level. There's a bunch of books out there that I've seen that for farmers have written that I didn't agree with. There's one dirt to soil by gay, but brown, this great. So, you know, there are others. So, if someone is out there that does run an industrial farm and is sort of tortured by it, they're aware of the consequences of what they're doing and they would like to maybe, and they may be admire what you've done and would like to move in that direction.

55:31Well, not, since you mentioned it, gay and I are both, we're both in, about the same age, we're both industrial farmers that went this route and there's some great regenerative farmers out there. But they are a tremendous number of them that used to be an industrial farmer. It's just not a lot of that. How many industrial farms are there in this country? I have no idea. A lot. I mean, a lot less than it used to be because they've consolidated and gotten so much bigger. But I don't know that number. Well, you were originally brought onto that Fox News Show because they were trying to figure out what a farmer thinks about Bill Gates buying up farmland.

56:18Bill Gates, who famously said that everyone's got to stop being meat and eat. He's bullshit, fake meat versions. He's plant -based meats. So, there's 25 ,000 factory farms. Factory farms continue to take over the agricultural landscape of the United States. It currently 1 .6 billion animals in our nation's 25 ,000 factory farms. Which makes sense. I mean, if you just go to our bees, where's our food coming from? Well, and even so, Jamie, you should Google this. But when we talk about that, the centralization of the meat industry is even more stark. So, what is it? Four meat processors, at least with beef, occupy over 80 % of the nation's beef supply.

57:09Yeah, the children just gave me this for a came in here. But this is in 2023. The United States is imported.

57:21956 million pounds of beef so far in 2023. Wow. That's imported beef. Wow. That's crazy. Jamie, we pull up that. I think I named it like food consolidation or something. I bet most people have no idea. I bet most people listen to this or blown away by that number. That most people would, if you asked the average person on the street, how much meat do you think is imported from other countries? Beef. They would probably say, nothing. They wouldn't even think of it. Especially if you get to label it a product of the USA, which is so dirty. And consumers believe they have the impression of choice.

58:07They don't actually have choice. The image that Jamie's going to show us. I'm going to try to find a cleaner one. Oh, good. So look at all these brands that are owned by this 10 or so parent companies. It's crazy. Consumers have the impression that there is choice, but truly there is no choice. The same is true with meat. I think on Tyson's website, it has, and I gave it to Jamie, but one in every five pounds of meat that's consumed in America is a Tyson product. Wow. So we talk about centralized food. We talk about food security. Do we really want a global food supply? Any answers yes or no, but with regards to fragility in food, think about COVID and the effects of what it did to the grocery store.

59:04There we go. One in five pounds of chicken beef and pork in the US is produced by Tyson Foods. That's proudly registered on their website. Yeah, there's another one that talks about how many animals they slaughter in a week. And that's another just incredible number. The same is the other four pounds are produced by two or three other companies. So I like it was Tyson and everybody else. Right, right, right. Will you pull up that other one, Jamie, because I want to draw a correlation between the scale of this versus the scale of what farms like us do.

59:45No, there's one that says like 177 ,000 cattle or processed. Anyways, I'll tell you a little bit about our model and then we can compare it to that. But so when dad decided to build the processing plan in 2007, he built it to process 50 head of cattle a week. And we got to that number and we were still hemorrhaging money. There was no way that was going to work. And so we made a few modifications primarily around refrigeration. We dropped the chill time. Yep, that's it. So our processing plant, own farm processing plant, will process 25 head of cattle a day, five days a week. So it's 125 head a week.

1:00:29Compared to systems like this, which is also on Tyson's website, 155 ,000 head of cattle, are processed per week in only 14 facilities. Wow. That's crazy. And the further to the right you go, so you know, 470 ,000 pigs are slaughtered in a week at only seven facilities. 47 million chickens per week. And I've been in those facilities, and it's not pretty. But that is the scale of food. We've shown the footage of someone got drone footage with a fly a drone over a pig farm and industrialized pig farm. And you see these lakes of pig waste. And it's so disgusting. It's just toxic waste. Which is sad because that waste is what created that top soil at White Oak Pastures.

1:01:28It's just we took the livestock off of the land. And we decoupled what had been coupled for millions of years. These are these lakes. Now here's the question. Why can't they take that waste and redistribute it into the land and use it for fertilizer? And there's some of that, but it's expensive. That's the problem. That's expensive. Is that what they're doing right here? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I remember them talking about the waste was getting spread on the people's houses. Oh. And because it would be in the air and then it would be in the water. Right, of course. Yeah. Well, yeah, indiscriminate because they want to do it cheaply.

1:02:07And there's a difference between a cow or pig or chicken defecating here and there and there. Right. And spread it in a natural way. That thick. Yes. Right. Well, and just to sort of tie all that together, Jamie, you have one more thing. And that's where I'm going to quit asking you to pull shit up. That's what he does. It's okay. He likes it. I have to apologize. He's probably like, who invited her? No, no, no, no. But there's one more that's like our brands. So one in five pounds of meat, we just read that was produced, produced my Tyson. But consumers have no idea that it was a Tyson product.

1:02:46So if you look at the amount of brands that, you know, these big multinational meat corporations own, there's no, there's no, uh, no way for a consumer to know that that's one of those products. So it's just, it's just a really incredible system when you start pulling the layers back on it. And there's demand. That's the other problem. It's like, you're not going to get them to stop doing that. There's a massive demand for all this food. And most people listening to this are part of that demand. Most people listening to this have stopped at a fast food burger place this week and, and picked up a product of this system.

1:03:30Yeah. And they want to be able to do that. If you're hungry and you're, you're on the go and you wanted to be able to pull into a drive -through, get a cheeseburger and some fries and a soda, bam. It takes, it's kind of extraordinary. The system they've created, it sucks that you can't do it in a healthy way, but it's kind of extraordinary that you just pull into somewhat and get a thousand calories like that. It's so convenient. The cheap. Yeah. Yeah. Cheat. Incredible. Yeah. For the amount of calories and that, and that is also reflected in the health consequences of impoverished people. If you look at people that are poor, that rely upon this kind of food all the time, those are the people that have the worst health outcomes.

1:04:07Because they're eating stuff that doesn't have any nutrients and it's terrible for you. It's filled with seed oils and bullshit and preservatives. And I'm sure you've seen those, they've done these little tests where they've taken McDonald's cheeseburger and just sit it on a shelf for like weeks and nothing happens to it. You could probably eat it, which is so insane. That's crazy. I mean, you could sit it for weeks. But you know, these companies, as bad as this is, these companies have done what the public told them to do. The public has said we want food cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper, cheaper.

1:04:46Yeah. And quicker. And you know, you know how you get cheaper and quicker. Okay. This is exactly the same after five years. Five years. What a go, Jamie. That is wild. You're done with that, man. That is crazy. Stick a fork in me, I'm done. Wow. So Megan wants to find out whether the cheeseburger will stay the same after another five years. So I bet it will. I mean, what's going to change? Five years says she's inspired to carry out the experiment after seeing an old burger being showcased in her doctor's office. And so she set this burger down and just left it out there for five years. And that's what it looks like.

1:05:29Hi, Megan. Kind of crazy, but also disturbing. If you eat that, like what is that doing to your gut microbiome? What is that doing to your health? I mean, the preservatives have a consequence on your health, the eating stuff that, you know, we were talking about dog food earlier. And I feed my dog raw food. And I just started feeding him raw food about six, seven months ago. And it kind of, it's embarrassing to me that that's the case. Because I always just thought if you go to the pets, I didn't think about it. You go to the pet store, you buy healthy food, the best food that they have available to, you know, a nice pet store.

1:06:06Like this got to be good for the dog. Oh, look at all the nutrients. Look at all the stuff. But then I was thinking like, how is it just sitting there? How can it, how, how does it not go bad? How does it not, there's never mold on pet food. There's the cheeseburger. 20 years. Oh my God. A Utah man. 20. Well, there's your answer, Megan. It doesn't even look like that one's been in the refrigerator. No, just sitting there. I don't think hers was either. Dang. This guy's just hoarding cheeseburgers. This guy's got a 14 year old cheeseburger. This is quite a few of them. He just breaks it out every year for an update.

1:06:38Oh my God. That's insane. That's insane. The pickle went bad. Yeah, pickle went bad. Pickled kind of, he's got it. He's got the receipt. That's incredible. How much was it? 79 cents. 79 cents. Not much more now, which is pretty shocking. Yeah. But there's a consequence. There's a consequence for all that. But what I was saying about my dog, he was getting fat. And we were lowering the amount of food that he was eating because of that and increasing his exercise and he still just did. And then I was thinking, I wouldn't eat that. Why am I feeding him what I would eat? And so I started feeding him.

1:07:12While feeding him elk meat, so I'd get a choux an elk and I'd take some of the ground meat and that's what I would use in his dog food and I'd cut it up and pour it. He would just dive on that food. I mean, he couldn't get it in his mouth quick enough. It was to him, it was what he was supposed to be either. Now when we switched over to what's, it's for the stuff we're using right now, there's a bunch of companies that do it really well and they sell real food for dogs. And it's frozen and it's cut up into cubes and it's just basically raw meat and some vegetables and some blueberries and stuff like that.

1:07:45And it's changed everything. Changed his coat, his body slimmed down. He's got way more energy, his endurance when I throw the ball for him. He's got way more energy. It's incredible. It's incredible. But of course it is. It just makes sense. You think about the high instances of cancer in dogs. And also the high instances of cancer in human beings that have been correlated to preservatives and all sorts of environmental contaminants that are in human beings diets. It just makes sense that that would be in your, especially since the vast majority of dogs are being fed these processed, preserved industrialized foods.

1:08:22Yeah, here's another one too. We brought Marshall some raw hods and I think he'll completely love it. But there's another part of it. And so we became fast friends with a pet food manufacturer in Atlanta, a whole dog market who also coined farm hounds. They're really, really great people. But they told me about the fact that puppies chew and you hate your puppy because it chews up all your teeth, your seat, your chair legs, your shoes, whatever it is. And you spank the puppy and they learn not to chew and whatever else happens. But truthfully chewing for dogs is soothing for them. It's something that is calming, it relieves stress, it's a natural behavior.

1:09:11They're used to having to gnaw their food off of a carcass that they've run down or whatever it else it is. And so it is sad to think that we have turned dog food into something little bites that can be gulfed down and we don't give dogs something to chew on. And then they get in trouble for chewing on your shoes or chewing on your chair leg when that is how animals evolved for thousands of years. Yeah, it's natural behavior. It's also changed the way human beings jaws are. You know, the reason why human beings get crowded teeth and smaller jaw bones is because we stop chewing on meat. And we stop chewing on food that's real food and we start eating mush.

1:09:57And when you do that over generation and generation, the human body changes. That's right. Yeah, it's very bizarre. I brought you some gum and it's from Turkey and it's called phalum. I don't know if I'm saying that right. But it's exactly for that. And I have chewed it for probably a year and a half and it is the best stress dealing with mechanism that I have. It is, you know, there's just something to be said for chewing. Yeah, they sell that stuff. I think it's called masticating gum. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, you're trying to do it. I'm like, you're trying to do it. I'm not a boxer. Shocking. And then it's good for their jaw, their jaw muscles.

1:10:36Yeah. It's good for mine. There's also a product called Jawser Size that I use. It's a rubber thing that you put in your mind. I do, I wait lift with my jaw. Believe it or not. I put this thing in my, in between my teeth and I go like this. I do reps with my jaw. Listen, sort of video of you doing that on this. It's made my jaw muscle is bigger. 100%. I was going to say something about it. I mean, you look, you're your jaws. They look good, man. Thank you very much. I'm very proud of my jaws. But there's people that go crazy with it. And there's like a community that online that of people that have like overused their jaw muscles to the point where they develop these massive like, bull -mastive jaw muscles on the side of their face.

1:11:19And it becomes like kind of a weird thing, like almost like anorexia or something like that. You know, they get obsessed with jaw muscles. That's disgusting. Yeah, there's like four and after photos. These people that have just have developed these, because they want a square jaw, right? So in doing that, will give you a square jaw, because that's where it comes from. It comes from this muscle right here, this fat muscle right here. And you could build that muscle just like you can build your biceps or any other muscle. And you build it from chewing. And a lot of people are just eating mush. Like what do they want when they want to stay?

1:11:52Oh, I want a tender steak. Exactly right. Yeah, it's one of the things that people don't like about game me is that it's chewing. That's right. Or grass -fed beef. We did a tremendous amount of education for cooking grass -fed beef. And for the first several years that we had our e -commerce online store, we had consumers call and say, it's like shoe leather. You know, it's so tough. And you say, well, how did you cook it? And you walk them through. And that has really cut down as consumers have become more familiar with it. But the fact that it melts in your mouth, me, it's not supposed to melt in your mouth.

1:12:22No, it's not. That's not the way that works. Well, I'm not a big fan of Kobe beef. But when I look at like when they slice Kobe beef and they talk about how expensive it is, because of all the marbling, I'm like, that thing's dying. Like that is a sick animal. That is like a severely morbidly obese human being. If you took a slice out of them, it's going to look like that. Just a deep, just fat is everywhere. It overcomes the food where you're eating it. And you just, it like coats your mouth. And some people like it. In like small pieces, OK, whatever you want. If that's what you're into, me, I like grass -fed beef.

1:13:00I'd like a dark rich rib -eye steak, where it looks like a dark red. Like a cow is supposed to look. Like a bison steak. If you eat a grass -fed bison steak and you cut into it, that is a dark red. And that's what you're supposed to eat. That's nutrient -dense. It's better for you. It's much higher in protein. That's what I like about wild game. When I'm eating wild game, I'm eating this animal that is essentially eating and living the way it's lived. For thousands and thousands and thousands of years, with no input from human beings whatsoever. And then there's some companies that do that, like certified Piedmontese has a very specific cow that's much higher in protein than other cows because it's leaner.

1:13:43And it looks different. It's darker. But you have to cook it differently. And the way I cook it, and the way I tell people to cook game, is what's called a reverse sear method. So I cook it very slowly until I get it up to an internal temperature of 120 degrees or 115 degrees. And then I sear the outside of it to give it a nice crust. And it's tender that way. And that way you get all the flavor of the meat. But it's not tender like Kobe beef. It's still a little chewy, but it's flavorful. It's delicious and moist, and it's great for you. You know, the life expectancy of a cow is like 24 years of age.

1:14:19And I feed a lot of animal. Wouldn't live much over two. Wow. Obesity. Yeah. Tell them about the story about the presidential pardon. Yeah. I tell them that truly the way we raise cattle, they'd live to be 24 years old. We don't do that. But that's what they would do. And I've always wanted to take a feed lot animal and give it a presidential pardon and say, we're not going to slaughter you. We're going to see how long you'll live. And keep one in the feed lot. And in turn, one loose I'll be in the pasture with my cows. And I would, I can guarantee you the fully feed lot animal wouldn't last, but maybe three years or four years or five years.

1:15:04Yeah, no one wants to do that because if like you got one of your friends, they let me make you a deal. Let's put a special tag on this cow, put a little ear tag so nobody slaughters it. And let's see what's up. They'd be like, no thanks. No. What do you think, how long do you think it would last? A feed lot animal. You know, I've never done it. I don't have a feed lot in it more than when I did. I needed to sell them to get the cash flows. I don't know that, but it wouldn't be long because they are dying of all the diseases of obesity and sedentary lifestyle that kills people. Right. They just, they wouldn't last long.

1:15:40As well as eating food that they're not really supposed to be eating. Like when you, people love a grain fed animal because it's obese. That's really what they like when they look for a lot of marbling. That's obesity. That's what you're getting and that's what makes it juicy and delicious. But that's also what makes it sick. And that's also why they have to use so many antibiotics. Yeah. You know, I'm sure you've seen, there was a documentary, I forget what the documentary was, but there was a documentary where they showed various cows and that these cows, all these diseases that these cows encounter because of eating that way.

1:16:15And all the chemicals that they have to use, the antibiotics they have to use to treat these cows. And the unintended consequences those have on the consumer. Well, your concern is antibiotic resistance because we use those antibiotics on the pathogens that when they're not sick, the cows are really not sick. It just makes them gain weight faster. Antibiotics make it cow game weight, found it. Yeah. Sub there. Oh, go ahead. That's the word. Sub there. How does it do that? You know, it's got to do with the rumen. I don't know that, but it's got to do with that. You know, a cow, the way they digest is there are microbes in the rumen, the gut that breaks down the cellulose or grain.

1:17:05And somehow that antibiotics enhances that procedure. I don't know that. And it probably keeps them functioning while still eating in a natural diet. Here it says, the damage caused by antibiotics depends upon on the mechanism of action, dosage treatment, duration, and administration route. But antibiotics, given that low doses to animals have the notable effect of increasing weight, a practice term subtherapyutic antibiotic treatment and use since 1946 in livestock. Wow. And you know, we only have a certain number of antibiotics. And when we use them indiscriminately at very low levels, resistance and pathogens fills up.

1:17:53Yeah. So we put us if at risk of losing these life -saving drugs that we depend on. And then also the rise of MRSA, you know, medication resistant staff infections are huge in this country. I mean, it's a giant issue when people get surgery or if they get cuts. And, you know, in the Jiu -Jitsu community, it's a giant issue. And I have several friends that have gone through lengthy hospital stays because they developed staff infection that didn't respond to antibiotics and it got systemic. And it's life -threatening and people have died from it. And it's something very scary because they're pumping you full of antibiotics intravenously and it's not working.

1:18:32The antibiotics are not killing this bacteria and this bacteria is consuming the person. Scary, scary stuff. So we're playing around with nature itself and we're playing around with nature itself essentially just for profit. Well, and unknowingly, you know, we don't know what the effects of this stuff's going to be. But for short -term profits, you know, that's one of the major, I think, differences between businesses like ours and corporations. You know, corporations are so steadily focused on quarterly reports and profits and, you know, whatever else. And there have been so many decisions. In fact, all of the big decisions recently, certainly, that when we get together, my wife, my sister, my brother -in -law, my dad, and he says, you know, do you want to buy this land?

1:19:25I'll die before it's paid off. Is this something y 'all want to do? And he abstains from the boat and, you know, my sister, my wife, my brother -in -law, we all decide if that's something we can or can't swing. And so businesses run like that for the longevity versus businesses for short -term profit. Right. Have completely different motivations. Yeah. And, you know, we're seeing the health consequences of that with other things as well. I was watching this video the other day where this gentleman was talking about farm -raised salmon, being one of the most toxic things that you can consume, which is so wild.

1:20:04If you think about salmon, salmon is just immediately associated with health. Like, oh, guys eat in salmon. Unless you're pregnant or... Right, right, right. But people think about salmon as being one of the healthiest things. And so this guy holds open this filet of salmon. So you can find a video on it, Jamie. This guy takes this filet of salmon and it's a fresh piece of salmon and he opens it up. And he's like, look at how easily these bones separate from the flesh and the color of the flesh is very different, which is one of the reasons why they have to use die. When you see a farm -raised salmon, it's a dark red color.

1:20:44A lot of times what you're getting is people putting food coloring on the salmon itself in order to make it that color, which is great because if you get a wild salmon, it's from the insects that they consume that turns their flesh that color. It's crazy to me. When I listened to your episode with RFK and he was talking about the mercury levels and fish, I mean, I was not a huge fish eater to begin with, but after that I was like, whoa, this is incredible. It's pretty wild. The farm -raised salmon thing is really crazy because people just don't associate salmon at all with being something that's not good for you.

1:21:20Or food. Right. Why should consumers have to second guess the nutritional density of food? Because I've been in the confinement animal business with cattle and other species, this thing about the fish doesn't surprise me a bit. It's, were you raised an animal as a mother culture? They're going to be problems with it. It's just as simple as that. It's going against nature. And you pissing on your British. Try to piss on your British. You're just stay warm. Did you find a video of the farm -raised salmon? There are a lot of, I think I found what you were just talking about just now. It's disturbing to all of the Saladino probably.

1:22:03Yeah, he just put one up on social media, Paul did. Yeah. It was so far, give me some volume on this. GMO corn, GMO soy, food, and medications to prevent overgrowth bacterial infections because it's so unhealthy. All fish is going to accumulate some heavy metals, which is not a good thing. But wild salmon is a much better choice than any Atlantic salmon. All Atlantic salmon is going to be farm -raised. And we know that these chemicals, PCBs, PVDEs are endocrine disruptors. Yes, it's an animal food. It's not a plant food. But this is one of my least favorite things. He doesn't bring it down. He doesn't bring it down.

1:22:36But his one gentleman takes a filet. He takes a fresh filet and opens it up for you to see it. And he shows how this tissue is essentially just weak and soft and it's just not the same. And it's just doesn't surprise me. The ecosystems are meant to be different species operating in symbiotic relationships with each other. And I don't care if it's cows or hives or salmon or anything. Meal, it doesn't matter. When you raise it in a monoculture, problems will occur. You fight nature. It's inevitable. You fight nature the whole time. That's just every reason for it not to work well. Yeah, and it seems like the whole movement of this happening has happened for so long and we're just sort of getting aware of it now.

1:23:30I mean, I've just been aware of it over the last few years, the last decade or so. But most people aren't even aware of it at all. You think of the vast majority of Americans hearing this. You're just going, what? What's going on? This is, now I have to pay attention to this too. And what do I do? But you think about all the ecosystems that exist on the earth, from tundra to desert, to rainforest, to alpine, onanone. There's not a monoculture anywhere. I don't believe you can find one anywhere. No. Everywhere there are plants and animals and microbes living in symbiotic relationships with each other.

1:24:09Yeah. And that's, that's, when you step away from that, which is what we've done in industrial farming, with its plants or animals, with its peanuts or hogs, you fighting nature, every step of the way. And the only, the tunes we use to fight nature all have an unintended consequence. And then we have to take another two to fight that unintended consequence and another, another similar to what she was talking about with medical interventions. I was going to start to say that, you know, what she described with the medical is exactly what we've done in food production. What one expensive technological two that we pay money for, that fixes a problem, but creates another problem that requires another expensive technical two, another, I don't know, I don't know, and there's no way into it.

1:25:12You know, one thing that I'll say is that it has been so interesting to watch nature balance itself. And the best example that we have of that is that, you know, we evolved as cattle people, you know, the first generation, you know, had multi species and, you know, continued and then we became a monoculture of cattle and, you know, around 2012, we started diversifying again. The first non cattle species that we introduced at White Oak Pastures was poultry. And we, we got good at raising them. And the way we insisted on raising poultry, like all the rest of the species is in an environment where they can express their instinctive behavior.

1:25:53So cattle were meant to roam in grays, hogs were meant to root and swallow, chickens were meant to peck and scratch. So our chickens were outside, unconfined, unrestricted, you know, they could walk to Atlanta if they wanted to. And shortly after we turned the chickens loose out on pasture, we noticed maybe around 2013, a few bald eagles settled in. And you know, that's, oh, come, come look, this is awesome, you know, mating pair. It was really neat. We were proud of them. You know, how American can you be? You know, I mean, this is great. And then the, you know, their migratory birds that they left and the next year, there were probably eight or something.

1:26:42And it was like, man, that's, that's really cool. You know, they, they went and had such a great time here. They told their friends and, you know, brought more back. This is great. And then, you know, eight left, they migrated away and, you know, 20 came. And the next year, even more. And I think at one point, there were single sightings, 84 bald eagles at White Oak Pastures at one time, where historically we had never had any bald eagles. I mean, I went 30 something years and never seen a bald eagle. But then in a very short amount of time, there were 80 something. And they, they put us near about out of the pastured poultry business.

1:27:21But that is just a prime example of how nature will balance itself. Yes. How did you mitigate the effects of the bald eagles? Go. A brilliant poultry manager that we had came up with a plan to put the, so, so we used guardian dogs. And the guardian dogs were out there loose with the, with the birds. But they're nocturnal. You know, the dogs are not protecting the chickens from nocturnal predators and the dogs are nocturnal. So they're working their butts off from sundown to sunrise. For coyotes and tides. And tides, bobcats, raccoons, possum skunks, dot, dot, dot. But when, when we did, some would come up, the dogs would go to the woods and bat down.

1:28:08And it was fine. But the eagles were daytime predators. We hadn't had that before. So they were eating us up. And actually, I mentioned that to you. Well, the last time I was on, and I told you that we were at odds with the government about a payment, a reimbursement for livestock, identity, prognology. Yeah, I think livestock and identity program. And they, they wouldn't pay us. And we, for the damages caused by protected species. Right. So that's specifically, you know, the birds were killed by a raccoon or possible. Or dog, they wouldn't, but a protected species, like a cougar or a wolf or eagle.

1:28:55You know, I'm not allowed to protect my birds. So they, they pay. And we, we spent a lot of money, but we collected our payments. You know, since I saw you last. Well, that's good news. Yeah. But is there a mitigation effort that you could do daytime that's natural to try to keep the people going? You put the dogs in with the birds in the fencing. The dogs kept the eagles at bay. No, we don't get zero predation, but it's limited predation. And I don't want zero predation. I like seeing those bald eagles. I saw once the 80. That calls it nature's tithe. Tithing to nature. I see a way of putting it.

1:29:33I like it. There's one. It's still in the chicken. Yeah. They're beautiful birds. It's kind of creepy, though, that the American animal is just such a vicious raptor. That's why I'm living. So, you know, as I said, a needle -kitting or a chicken, an eaten it or two or three is fine. They were killed. Dozens and dozens and dozens and not eat them. It was a sporting event to prove hierarchy. You know, so it was, it was like, you know, if I want to be at the top of the food chain, I kill more and more and more. I kid you not. I had a forerunner and I got up and got in my car to go to work. And you crank up your car and then you look up and there was the back end, the two feet and tail of a chicken on my car.

1:30:23And there was not chickens anywhere, probably within a mile of my house, where I park. So it was a bloody mess. Well, they have that same problem with wolves, surplus killing. Wolves will just have fun and just kill 18, 19 elk. Like, there was an instance in Wyoming where there's just, it was like 18 or 19 cows that had been slaughtered by wolves and they just left them there. Because that's what they do. And when it's rare for them to get a chance to kill some elk, especially when they reintroduce wolves and the elk haven't been accustomed to them, and now, suddenly, the wolves are there. And the cows in the bulls don't exactly know what to do because they have an encounter wolves before and they just ran right through them.

1:31:08They drop the population in Yellowstone significantly, which is where they initially introduced them. But now, there was an article today that I was reading about them in California that they're seeing them and they're migrating into California. And some of them being released in California by these wacky wildlife groups. Like, I showed one that was in Central California's near Bakersfield, the Sloan Wolf that was in a cow pasture that a friend of mine had filmed. Beautiful, big black wolf by himself that most likely was brought there by somebody. Nature ain't canned and nature ain't cruel. She's show beautiful.

1:31:48Yeah, it's beautiful. But it is what it is. You know? That's one of the issues I think that some people focus on with agriculture in general is that they have these expectations that it is kind or it is Walt Disney World or it is beautiful. We had a situation where we were we were kidding. So our goats were, you know, kidding and we were we were co -grazing a paddock. So there were hogs in with goats. And what what it was the wire called the Bob or the page wire and a goat got her head stuck. This is terrible. I can't believe I'm saying it. I'm a x -ader. The pigs ate the kid. So she had a kid and the hog smelled the blood.

1:32:33They came. They ate the baby goats. And as sad as it was, that is nature. Now we don't we don't kid with pigs anymore. But we learned our lesson. New, new room. Start right now. We ain't gonna do that in a moment. Yeah. Well, it makes sense. It's incredible. Pigs lead everything. No. Anything and everything. Yeah. Do you have an issue with pigs getting loose and coming wild and do your pigs look wild? Because pigs are one of the weird animals that if they're not domesticated, it's like when people see a domesticated pig like babe, right? Like they think of that's what pigs are like. Pigs are one of the strangest animals because when you release them into the wild within a month or so, they start to metamorphosize.

1:33:16They do. They absolutely do. They get the tussures longer snouts. Thicker fur. I have no idea how they do that. It's crazy. It's incredible. Yes, we've had that. I wonder if that happens with people too. You know, you think about wild people. Kids going feral? Well, it's humans. If humans had to live in a wild, I mean, I think there's certain amount of wild instincts that humans have that are suppressed by modern society. And rightly so. I mean, you want to live in a city. You have to suppress some of the natural instincts of predatory human beings. You know, wild dogs behave differently. They don't look different to me.

1:33:59Right. That's the point. We've had cattle that got away. They didn't look any different to me. But somehow hogs just change. Yeah, they change their actual physical features. Morph. Yeah, when people think of wild boars, they think that that's a different species. And it's not. And that's what's really wild. It's one genus. It's sous -scroffa. It's the same thing, which is so bizarre. That's bizarre. Yeah. You know, I went pig hunting recently in California. And this place that I go, there's a lot of them. And the pig that I shot doesn't look anything like a pig that you would see in a farm. Not at all.

1:34:37It's this dark hairy thing with a long nose and big tusks. And it's a big sucker. That's what we do. So, you know, a guy's in Austin going sip cocktails at some of these neon light bars downtown. The guy's in Bluffton. They go hog hunting. And some of the shit that they overturn. I mean, they're hogs big as this table. I mean, it's incredible. Yeah. You know, different breeds have different characteristics. It's a Glouchester Old Spot. This tan hog with black spots all over it. There's a hump. Sure, there's black hogs. It's got a white band across the shoulders. Oh, no, no, no. Like just much of them.

1:35:16But when they go wild, they get that elongated snout. But of course, the color doesn't change. It's incredible how that works. That is incredible. It's a strange animal. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very bizarre animal that we domesticated. The fact that it does that. Because I don't know of any other animal that morph so quickly. Do you eat pork? Yeah. You do eat pork. It's delicious. Yeah, it's delicious. I like wild pork, too. But obviously, wild pork comes with the wary of trickinosis and all sorts of other things that they get. Just got to cook it. They don't worry me. Yeah, you just got to cook it.

1:35:52Yeah, you just got to make sure that it's the right temperature. You said something that was interesting that I can speak to. And something inside of you that wants to experience nature. It's just something that's just out of the stick about watching nature. And we have a lot of people visit white oak pastures every year. And one of the things that they love the most are our big cattle moves. We've got how many breeding mommas? That big hurls of files in the head. And then so a thousand head. And we move them in the growing season every single day. I saved a video that Jamie can play or not play.

1:36:30It doesn't matter. But customers, people, anybody loves to take a step back into time and into something that's just so, it just awakens your soul. Look at all those cows. Wow. All right, there's not just new cow mowers. I've been doing it for 60 something years. And I love watching the cattle move. Yeah. Wow, look at that. Pretty cool. If they have not been in confinement, they're coming out of a big pasture to go into a big pasture. But they know it. But they had eaten it down. It was time for them to rotate. This is Scott Cowboy. With his two working dogs. And it seems like instinctively they know this.

1:37:16And the dogs obviously are moving them along. But they know exactly where they're going. The dogs, the dogs in the cow are really just to encourage the ones that don't feel good that day. Somebody's got a hurt foot to go through. And now into this new pasture. That's why that tunnel is under the four lane road that goes through our farms. Wow. That's pretty cool. Hang on. This next scene is sort of like the, it's the big area we can have. Wow. That looks like Buffalo. That's crazy. Look at all those cows. That is wild. But they do that every day. And people look, I love to see it. He loves to see it.

1:38:01He sees it every day. But there is. There is. There's something inside of you that wants to be a part of that system. You go to a, you know, to a cafe, to a confinement situation. Have you ever been to a feedlot of confinement? Confinement, animal feeding operations. Can't feed. Jamie can Google it. Not up close. Jamie, will you Google a cafe? And there's nothing about that that makes you want to watch it. It's so starkly different. It's like seeing people in prison. Yeah. You're watching. Well, I was going to say that about pigs. I've seen industrialized pig farms and where they're all confined to these very small cages.

1:38:38It's terrible. It's very disturbing. And it's also, I mean, that's where disease gets. I mean, that's what human beings encountered. And, you know, when there was poor hygiene and no sanitation in the United States, it was the rise of a lot of plagues. You see, a cafe like that, they're probably feeding sub therapeutic levels of antibiotics in the feed to keep them from getting sick. Look how many of them there are. And if you want to make Donald's cheeseburger, that's what it is. It's just so interesting because, you know, people don't associate. They say, cows, a cow, cows are ruining the planet.

1:39:17Cow, cow, cow. There are no correlations between these two systems that are the same. I mean, they're, it's completely different. And will they talk about cows causing, well, ecological change? I agree. In that scenario. Yes. It's a different deal. It's a totally different deal. I would challenge anybody to look at that video that you just posted and not say, oh, that looks normal. The video that you showed looks normal when they're running through the field, green grass, the cows are all rolling around eating the grass. They're supposed to do. And they don't need sub therapeutic antibiotics. They're fine.

1:39:54But you're also getting a lower yield. Yes. Yeah. And it takes longer. Yeah. I think an animal that we would slaughter weighs about a thousand pounds and takes us like 36 months to get it there. A commodity animal would weigh 1 ,600 pounds. Up to. Up to 1 ,600 pounds and would take how long? The list of two years. So, I mean. Yeah. A lot of difference in yield. A lot of difference in yield. A lot of difference in the volume and the amount of time. The cost per pound. Yeah. Make sense. How many people have reached out to you? Have a lot of people reached out to you after you've gone public with all this stuff and become sort of a higher profile and wanted help in trying to figure out how they could do that for themselves?

1:40:40Yeah. We formed a non -profit 501C3 CFR Center for Agricultural Resilience. Resilience, that's the word. And we're training people. We have an internship program that's we take six or eight per quarter, four times a year. We get 20 -something applications. We can't train everybody. Right. We're not set up for that. We are aga. We are increasing our capacity. But we, you know, it's not going to be a college. It's going to be a farm. But we do want to be generous and share what we've learned with other people. It's just, boy, it's beautiful what you guys do. It really is. And it's, I think for a lot of people, it's very satisfying to see.

1:41:33And it seems very natural and very normal. And it seems like the right way to go. But for the vast majority of people that are getting their food, this is not going to be an option. With what's currently required to feed 300 plus million people. Well, it's highly replicatable. And I understand what you're saying. But all these things that are going wrong with the big industrial production. That has problems too. Yes. I don't know. The price is probably a lot closer per pound when you take in the external cost. Then industrial agriculture takes outside of the cost of producing food. Right. That's not at, you know, the per pound price on the label.

1:42:21It would take someone a lot smarter than you or I to figure out how to scale that. And how to make that available for everyone and how to encourage people to do that. I don't think you're, I mean, I think the only way to encourage industrial farms to change is financially. Yeah, there has to be some sort of a call. Like they have to be responsible for this damage that they're doing. They have to be respawned. And then also the health consequences. If someone starts saying, hey, you know, what you're doing to these animals is having a direct effect on the human beings that consume them. And you're responsible for that.

1:42:54If there's a change, it will be a consumer lit change. That's the only way it's going to happen. So it'll be a, it'll have to be a change of people voting with their money. But there's no other way that's going to happen. Yeah. And it's going to have to get really bad before that occurs on a whole sleigh basis. And what scares me is that that's when opportunists and people that have a lot of money and influence and people that are in positions of power. I'm going to try to encourage people to do something else instead that's profitable. And they're going to try to blame cattle instead of blaming monocrop agriculture.

1:43:29And they're going to try to force people to eat plant -based meat, which is, which has really been interesting to me because that's one of the instances where people have voted with their dollar. Because when they first started introducing things like beyond meat or impossible meat or whatever the fuck it's called. When they started doing that stuff, you know, initially a lot of people like, oh, this is great until people just tried it. Like, oh my god, this is terrible. And then when people saw studies, it shows that it gives rats cancer. They're like rats. What does it go to me? Yeah, what is it going to do to me?

1:43:59And so the stock on those things has dropped off substantially. And because of that, there's been lawsuits where a lot of people invested in these things hoping for a very specific amount of return. And it's not, they're not getting it and people are not buying it. And some people are buying it, but it's just a very, very small, in terms of what they thought it was going to be. versus what it is now. And so now the new thing is 3D printed meat. Or cell grown meat. Yeah, cell grown meat, which is essentially the same thing, I think, because they're taking that cell grown meat and then they're using 3D printers to try to replicate it.

1:44:32Artificial created, ribeye, and it's bizarre. And what are the health consequences of that? Like, who knows what, what, you know, what does that do for you? I have no more being and I'm not economically threatened by this kind of technology meat. I don't have a very big customer base. And they're not going to swing from where I am. Right. Way over there. Right. And of course, the, I think that the, the entities that are threatened by this, technique, hot tech meat is the big meat companies that are industrially producing meat. And evidence of that is a lot of them have invested in that. No, I think they are.

1:45:18And I think they do realize that the, the, the plant based meat is a bust. And also more and more people are becoming aware of the health consequences of industrial seed oils. And how many of these industrial seed oils are used in the processing and creation of these artificial plant based meats? And you know, those, these things cause inflammation. They cause a host of health problems in people's bodies. Yeah, his mother grew up cooking everything in large. And then when Chrisco came along, that was like the thing. You know, like it, it, it, these vegetable oils, these canola oil, sunflower oil, it was like this very stark change.

1:46:01And one thing that has been interesting for me is that, you know, in the last 24 months, our suet fat and pork lard is, you know, one of the fastest moving items that we sell. It's because people refuse to, to cook in canola oil and peanut oil and whatever. And then you finally begin to aware. It used to be a disposal problem. Yeah, that's right. We, we put in a bio diesel. Yeah, a bio diesel converter. You know, so most of the stuff that we have that's waste, we can compost. Compose fat does not compost good well. So we spent a lot of money on a bio diesel converter that didn't work worth a time.

1:46:47So the idea was to convert fat into diesel? Yeah, and we did. We just didn't use it. The yield was terrible. It's hard. It's hard. Better for food. We're just trying to get rid of it. Right. And now I have a bio diesel converter I would love to sell. Gas of cheap. Because we sell all our lard and towel, all the beef and pork fat. Well, I think that is because of education and unintended education. It's not public education. This is education that's coming from people discussing this on podcasts and people that are reading articles about the consequences of industrial seed oils. Also the origins of these industrial seed oils that they're originally industrial lubricants that weren't designed for human consumption.

1:47:34And then I had Gary Breka on the podcast. He had a fascinating guy who details the process that's involved in converting rape seed oil, which is canola oil into what you know is what they think of. When people think of canola oil, they think, oh, it's corn oil, it's healthy. It's vegetable oil. Good for you. No, no, no. You're probably not supposed to eat that. It's not supposed to get that much of it first of all. Also, it's rancid and they have to use chemicals to treat the smell. They have to bleach it to make it clear. There's like so many things that are involved in the processing of that junk.

1:48:09And then you put it in your body to cause a host of problems. And people are finally becoming aware of these problems and also becoming aware of other options. Like olive oil, avocado oil, healthy oils, animal fat. Yes. It's like fast food. There is no fast food that's cooked in animal fat. Right. There are, you know, if you eat fast food is 100 % seed oils. Right. So there's a real rub because there is all this education around what seed oils are doing. But you know, people say, oh my gosh, I can't go out and eat. Palsaladino has been so instrumental in that. Yes. And you know that McDonald's used to cook their fries in the yard.

1:48:48They sure did. If he made Donald's, Tyler would have. Tyler wouldn't. Yeah. There's Tyler. Tyler. If beef, beef fat. Yeah. And yeah. And they're so good. And they spilled a fortune to make them worse. And to try to make the vegetable taste like the Tyler could. Yeah. Crazy. It's so, I mean, French fries cooked in Tyler. Shit. That's good. It's good. It does taste good. And it's not as bad for you. Here it is. Like most fried foods, McDonald's fries are cooked in canola oil. Didn't used to be the case. Beef towel was initially used because it's a supplier for the chain. Couldn't afford vegetable oil.

1:49:23As health concerns over saturated fat grew in the 1990s. Fuckers. McDonald's finally made the switch to vegetable oil. What drives me nuts about that saturated fat thing? That's a small number of scientists that were bribed. What is essentially the equivalent of $50 ,000 in today's market. Oh man. So these guys were, they were bribed by the sugar industry to write a bullshit article that made this connection between saturated fat and heart disease because they were trying to lead people away from the actual conclusion is that it's sugar. And that sugar is what's bad for everybody. And that's what's causing the increase in all these corn oils.

1:50:03But research today is exactly the same. Yes. Who's right in the chat? Right. What do you want the paper to say? Right. What outcome are we looking for? Exactly. It's so scary. It is scary. It's scary because the consumer for the most part relies upon the air quote experts. That's right. And these air quote experts, like we detailed with the FDA, how they go immediately into some sort of a cushy job in these corporations afterwards. It's sick. It's really twisted. And the unintended consequences for the consumer is your health. And you don't even know what's going on behind the scenes. You trust these experts.

1:50:42You trust these governing bodies to do the right thing. And when they make things illegal or they ban things, you think, oh, they're banning things to this bad for you. And in terms of, no, some of the things they're banning for you are very good for you. But they compete with some of the things that are paying them off. That they can profit from. They can profit from. This is spooky stuff. But the only way that changes is through education. Then you're seeing these downstream effects of that education, like with the fact that you guys are selling large intel now. So people are waking up. And liver and kidneys and hearts.

1:51:18We used to literally compost all of those kinds of organs. We sell a few. But now we sell out of those kinds of organs. Yeah, I think the some of the highest priced per pound meat items that we sell are the most nutrient dense parts of the carcass. Oh my god. How about that? It's crazy. How about that? People are eating for nutritional benefit. Finally. Shocking. You know what coyotes eat the first night they kill a calf. The guts. Good. Yeah, they go right for the liver. That's a wolf's eat. The alpha wolf is the one the first gets to liver when there's a kill. Watching nature has been so interesting.

1:51:55Just to tell that story a little deeper, you know, dad always said if a bad herdsman has a calf go down the first night, the coyote will chew through the anus and eat the most nutrient dense parts of the carcass. The liver, the kidneys, the spleen. And it's full. You know, they can't eat more than they can hold. And it's not like they're going to preserve it and store it. So, you know, they leave, they rest during the day. And if the farmer doesn't pick up that carcass the next night, they'll come back and eat the muscle meats. So they'll chew on the shoulder, the pack legs. And, you know, they'll eat till they get full and then they'll retreat.

1:52:32They'll, you know, sleep during the day. And then if the farmer's steel does not pick up that dead carcass, they'll chew on the hide. And, you know, there's a lot that goes into like the hair in digestion and pushing it through the stomach. But that's the way animals evolved. And the first thing that they eat, we so pretentiously want rib eyes and New York strips and filet mignon when in reality the most nutrient dense parts of the carcass are so far from that. Right. Deliver in the heart. That's right. Yeah. It's a lot of with hunters, unfortunately. You know, when I go hunting, I always take the liver in the heart from the elk.

1:53:12And some people just don't do it. They just leave it there. It's unfortunate. Because it's the best stuff for you. That's right. But elk livers rough. That's an acquired one. You got to season that, cook it with onions. And it's like, you got to be ready. You got to be ready. That's a flavor. Take it like a capsule. Well, you know, it's interesting because the Comanche is used to eat it raw with bile on it. It's the bison raw bison and they would flavor it with bile. Wow. Yeah, they would squirt bile on it. That's incredible. I don't know why. I mean, it has to be some sort of an evolutionary thing where they realize that that's the most nutritious.

1:53:50That has the best benefits. It's best for you. I don't know whether it aids in digestion. I don't know. But... Whether there are tribes in Africa that still drink blood. Yeah. That's not as rough, though. Blood, they drink blood, they drink blood mixed with milk. Blood doesn't taste that bad. You know, I've drank blood before. It's not that bad. But it's bile? That's another level. And you get to wonder how cultures evolve. There are taste buds and there are preferences. Anthony Bourdain told me that the most disgusting food that he had ever eaten was this fermented shark that he ate. I believe it was an Iceland.

1:54:29And he said it's a delicacy to them and they treasure it and they eat it. And he said it is rough. He's like it is so foul and so disgusting but they like it. And it's a weird thing. Like a quiet taste are very bizarre. Because like why would you acquire that taste? You came up with that. Yeah, what is that? I used to think that when I was a kid. Like the first time I ever had a taste of whiskey, I was like, what? Who? This is not cool -aid. Cool -aid is so much better. That's I remember thinking that as a kid. Like if I had a glass of cool -aid or a glass of whiskey, who the fuck is going to take the whiskey?

1:55:02Yeah, you used to it though didn't you? You used to it. It becomes a required taste. Now I really like an old scotch. You know, I like it. I actually like an ice cube, a nice 18 -year -old scotch. It's good, you know? A glass of buffalo trace with an ice cube in it. I enjoy it. But how? How does one acquire taste for something that's initially so disgusting? And why? You know, I get it with whiskey because it gets you lit. I do not get it with certain food. Like I guess fermented chalk, it was probably a survival thing. They probably needed some food that they could store for long periods of time when they weren't going to have any food, especially in places like Iceland.

1:55:41It's a very rough climate. That's right. But, you know, that's not a here and no there. If people could eat a little bit of liver in their diet, I mean, I have friends that are very health conscious that only eat it for the health benefits. They don't enjoy it, but they'll eat one ounce of liver every day. That's right. Freeze it, cut it in a little cube, and drop it in the back of your mouth. Yeah, you can do it that way. Just get through it. So you're like, capsule. But boy, you put some liver in front of Marshall. She just can't eat it fast. It lunges on it. I fed him some elk liver. I'll slice off a piece and give it to him.

1:56:11And he's like, come on, that's more like, this is incredible. It's like instinctive. It's in his DNA that that is what he wants. I had a boxer who is still to this day like my BFF. She died like three years ago. And I'm still not over it. But I trained her with liver. And I would go to the kill floor at the plant, get some, cut it in the little bites, and I'd train her until she peaked. And then she'd be ready to go again. That's crazy. Yeah, food training is the best way to train a dog. Especially with liver. Yeah, especially with liver. It is fascinating that we've moved away from that to the point where people crave the least healthy things.

1:56:49Like, fucking Cheetos. You know, like we, I don't know what it is. How? I don't, I guess. Well, I think specifically in the case of like, really unnutritionist food that you can buy, junk food, is that these scientists have engineered these things. The right amount of saltiness, the right amount of sweet and flavors, that, you know, what's the, the, the, the Pringles thing? Bet you can't eat just one. One, uh, yeah. Yeah. And kind of you can't. Pop one and you can't stop. Yeah, oh my god. For me, it's ruffles. Mm -hmm. The, because of the thickness. You buy half a bag and you don't get mad about it.

1:57:24Oh my god. Can't stop. I can't stop. I just keep chewing them down. I know it's terrible for you. Doritos. That's another one. Like what is on Doritos? Cool Ranch Doritos. They have never met a cool ranch in their fucking life. But, but it's. What is a cool ranch? I don't know. I don't know. Oh, yeah, that is a cool ranch. That's a cool ranch. You guys have a cool ranch. That's a cool ranch. Yeah, it's a different thing. Yeah, but you're not going to see white oak pastures Doritos. No. You're right. Yeah, it is interesting. How are our food system has been hijacked? The expectation for food to be so incredibly flavorful.

1:58:00Yes. That's the expectation now. Yes. And you do get a custom to it. You know, you get a custom to certain sort of tastes. And that's one of the reasons why people think that wild meat is gamey. Like that's the concern. You know, like whether wild meat is gamey. And most of that, when they talk to about wild game, it's really just a poor handling of the meat. It's allowing the meat to get too hot. To sit in the sun. Not cooling the animal down. Not getting it on ice fast enough. That's really, oh, dragging through the sage brush after you've slaughtered it. You know, that's really what it is. Yeah, you're culturally wheat, grits, and drink sweet tea, and eat fried vegetables.

1:58:40Mm -hmm. Just a lot of cultural stuff there. Yeah, a lot of cultural stuff. And then you get a custom to those foods. And they become comfort foods. And unfortunately, a lot of those comfort foods are really terrible for you. You know, one of the things that Gary we discussed these things with, when I discuss these things with experts, I'm always blown away by things that I didn't know before. And what Gary Breco was talking about the other day was folate. And that, you know, these enriched flowers that are enriched with folate, which is very different than folic acid, which is naturally occurring.

1:59:14And that this, or is the opposite. Folic acid is what's not, right? What is it? And once a really big deal to put in. Folate is normal. Folate is, yeah, I made it backwards. Yeah, so I made it backwards. Folate is naturally occurring, but folic acid is not. And your body doesn't process it the same. So when you're getting all these enriched flowers, they're enriched with something that your body doesn't want. Your body's like, what is this shit? And that's why so many people on top of the fact that a lot of, you know, they've changed the way wheat is grown to make it more high yield. So it's got more complex gluten in it.

1:59:49And then it's enriched with folate. It's right. With folic acid rather. Yeah, that's terrible for you. Well, again, we're not really growing food anymore. We're growing food like ingredients that can then be manufactured into something that's put into a package with a shiny label that may or may not be indicative of what's actually in the package. And then we serve it to people at something that they can afford. Yeah. Well, I'm very, very, very, very thankful for people like you that you folks have, first of all, made this incredibly difficult decision to take your farm and to convert it over much cost and heartache and a lot of pain and a lot of back breaking work to turn it into this regenerative farm.

2:00:32And then you've gone out and told the world. And you've shown that it could be done. And you've shown, especially through these videos, where people can see it and through these conversations that we've had where people can become educated that you don't have to eat that way. You don't have to live that way and you're not supposed to. It's not good for you. It's not good for the world. It's not good for the environment. It's not good for anybody. And that if it wasn't for people like you that made this decision, it's a very difficult decision to do this. I think the conversations that we've had, the conversations you've had with other people and writing this book and having these people understand these things is changed the way most people think and feel about food.

2:01:17Thank you, Jamie. I made a little spill here. But I'm very, very thankful that you guys have done this. And also Joel Salatin has been on this podcast before. It's a very similar type of operation at polyphase farms. And I know there's some other ones too. So shout out to them as well. But if it wasn't for you folks, I mean, who knows? Who knows where we'd be at? And I think people would be stuck without a solution. Because even the term grass fed beef, when I was a kid, you never heard about grass fed beef, I wasn't even a term that people were familiar with. It's a fairly new understanding. And I think that if it wasn't for people like you that are out there shouting it from the barn tops, I would say rooftop, but you do it the right way.

2:01:58I appreciate you guys very much. Well, thank you for those kind words. But I really don't feel like we deserve them. The quality of our life has increased so dramatically. And it really is almost the opposite. I don't feel like anything we've done, we've done four other people. We did it for ourselves. But I'm delighted that other people have benefited from it. And now what I wish is that more farmers could share in the improved lifestyle that we now enjoy, not necessarily economic, but otherwise. And I wish that that would make more of this food available for more consumers who would embrace it.

2:02:47I mean, everybody's boat floats on that rising tide. But it's just really hard to get it started. It's just really difficult. And you know, sadly, the good news is that there are those of us out there, not just us, but a number of us. They've shown that it can be done. The bad news is it's probably harder today than it was 25 years ago. Why is it harder? Because of the industrial food company is moving to come into the space. Like this whole thing. To greenwash products. We wash for yes. With imported, you know, imported product and words that are so loosely defined and not indicative of the attributes that they represent.

2:03:39Like free range. Yeah. And product of the USA, what you highlighted earlier. But you know, the consumer, if we could move where we produce food, consume food in this country, the consumers would be so much better off. The producers would be so much better off the land, the water, rural landscape. It's just wind, wind, wind. And today, the winners are big, multi -national food producing corporations and high -tech corporations. And I've got to imagine that for you, the personal satisfaction of running a farm the way you do has got to be much greater. It's got to feel much better on your conscience.

2:04:23It's got to feel much more natural. Yeah. And I mean, every sense of the word, you know, being that one click in that path of food production, food delivered from the farm to the consumer. I don't think anybody ever enjoys that. It's just the hand that stills us. But when you take control of your own tiny, tiny little food production system, it's just great. It's just great. And the evidence here is, I've got, Jim is here with me. I need to mention, I've got another daughter, Jody, who came back here, her wife, Amba, son -in -law, John. They wouldn't have come back if I was an industrial beef producer like I used to be.

2:05:12They wouldn't have wanted to. And I wouldn't have encouraged them to. But the fact that we made these changes has created an entity that you know why we're not blowing away with profits. It's just very, very pleasant to be part of. That's beautiful. Well, thank you very much for being here, both of you. Really, really appreciate you. I appreciate what you're doing. And tell everybody to get this book. It's called A Bold Return to Giving a Dam, Will Harris, White Oaks Pastures. Thank you very much, sir. Major Business Card. All right. Beautiful. That was actually a ribbone of a cow. Nice. And then, so the meat went obviously to be sold as grass -fed beef.

2:05:53The bones were boiled for stock. So we sell some broth. And then the leftover of that, we turn into business cards. Dad's got one that he's been carrying around for a very long time. It's almost years. That's a crazy business card. He'll say, if you want to get in touch with me, you better take a picture. That's awesome. Thank you very much. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you. Bye, everybody.