#2065 - David Grusch

29:11Calibrate their intelligence collection like, oh, Dave said it's this number. We missed a couple. Shit. Let's put it out for the KGB SVR and GRU are now going to hit the streets to try to figure out which ones they miss. So I'm here to protect national security. And I'm just trying to put all the general topics out there for public conversation to hold our government accountable really. So I'm here as a fact witness because we have a, you know, a constitutional oversight issue because this program has not been reported to Congress in the appropriate way. And I can get into a senator I talked to that has died recently so I can, you know, explain to you why I'm so sure besides what I read, which we can get into that what Intel reports I read, I did get some stuff cleared.

30:09So during my investigation, I'm like, you know what, I need to talk to somebody at the highest levels. Right. So and this will give you an idea of the kind of people we talk to. And this is the only one I'm going to talk about using their name because they died two years ago. So in spring 2021, I actually flew with a couple colleagues of mine to Las Vegas. And I met with senator Harry Reid about nine months before he died. And of course, he's a private citizen now. And I wanted to brief him on the topic. And I wanted to get his kind of thought leadership on it because, you know, he was a gang of eight member, right.

30:45You know, which is the top most cleared senators in congressman. He was the majority leader for God's sake, so the Senate. And I knew, you know, he helps sponsor the OSAP program that I mentioned and where they looked at skin walker ranch and some other things. And I wanted to understand like, what does Harry Reid actually know? Like, why did he, you know, give $21 million to DIA and Bigelow Aerospace for this. So I'm sitting there in Harry Reid's living room, you know, right next to him with some other witnesses that were there with me. And he straight up says he's like, yeah, I knew we had UFO material.

31:25I was denied access for decades. I tried to get access. And then he explained some of his efforts during OSAP. And I was like, holy shit, the former majority leader just say that he just confirmed this to me as well. You know, I was already talking to these amazing high level people, but I have Harry Reid literally saying, yes, we have material and, you know, he knew it was nonhuman. Did Harry Reid have personal experience with this? I don't know if he's had any personal stuff in his personal life. I mean, did he see it? Did he? He said in terms of seeing the material himself, he said he was denied access for years or decades was his term.

32:10And he actually told me on behalf of me, he was going. So he had like a weekly call with President Joe Biden at the time. And he straight up said to me, he was going to talk to President Biden about this issue literally. And then what he was telling me about OSAP, I was like, holy shit, I have like 20 other people that told me this dude. So the real history, what fucking OSAP was, because I think there's a lot of people out there that think they were looking at ghosts, skin walker ranch. Yes, they went to the ranch as a secondary and tertiary objective, but the real reason. So like, there's a document that came out a couple years ago through FOIA from the Defense Intelligence Agency.

32:59There was this special access program requests that Harry Reid, you might have seen this. I think like George and App and company have reported on this. That he sent to the deputy secretary defense William Lynn, and it was asking for one of the most serious saps you can ask for what they call a bigoted waived special access program. So waived means it's limited congressional reporting. That is a class of special access programs and bigoted means it's like by name. And it's like, it was like, you could read the FOIA document. It was like, you know, Harry Reid, James Inhoff, Lou Elizondo, etc. And I'm like, why are you asking for the most serious SAP to be created for a program that ostensibly is looking at skin walker ranch and stuff and doesn't make any sense.

33:48So what really happened there? And you know, Harry Reid, God bless his soul, made this disclosure. A couple of weeks after we met in the New Yorker, and you can look this up, I think it was like a May 2021 New Yorker story where he says, I knew for decades and he made this disclosure not me. So I'm going to say the name of the contractor. Harry Reid said this, you know, we knew that Lockheed Martin had this material for decades. I tried to get access and I was denied. And specifically with the Lockheed Martin stuff, he was talking about during the OSAP program. And for the people who are on this program, I submitted the shit that's officer got this cleared.

34:28So don't freak out, but I'm telling the truth here. So Lockheed Martin wanted to divest itself from this material at a specific facility that's known to me that I provided to the inspector general. Like street address, all that shit, right. And the idea was, if they made a catchers met a security catchers met for this shit, you know, most serious, that possible. The contractor and the other government customer, which was the central intelligence agency, for that specific Lockheed material. And it was shit that they recovered from like the 50s and stuff and it was like bits and pieces of of like hall structure, shit like that.

35:12And so they were going to tech transfer its and the 21 or 22 million dollars was actually for big low aerospace to build out, you know, facilities in Las Vegas and material analysis equipment. And I have, I saw the staff meeting slides. I saw the paperwork. Like there's a paperwork trail. I've seen on this shit. And I talked to the people involved in this program. And, you know, even Jim Lakatsky, who ran the program, who's retired DA officer, PhD in engineering, even made this disclosure in his book, skinwalkers at the Pentagon, page 152 to 153. And he also made a disclosure a couple of weeks ago.

35:53I think it was on weaponized podcast with Jeremy Corbell and George NAP, where he's like, yeah, we had a whole craft and we broke into the hall and we gained access. And he ran that through the same, you know, security processes I did. And so Jim Lakatsky, who ran this program is also going on the record that he is aware, personally aware of intact vehicles and everything. So they gained access. What does that mean? And by what method did they gain access? The way he wrote it in his book, I can only infer it sounded forcible. So through some kind of, you know, means, I don't know if it was like CO2 laser or something.

36:34I don't actually know how they gained access. But imagine it was not permissive access. They like broke into the damn thing. So this thing is essentially sealed. And it's some sort of what was the shape of this thing? He the Katsky didn't disclose the shape on this particular vehicle. As far as I would have left dimensions. I don't believe he did in his book. But I think it's like chapter 11 in his new book or something I glanced at it. But he did make that disclosure on video as well. And I do encourage both the arrow office, which is the DOD's UAP task force successor and Congress to ask Dr.

37:14James Lakatsky to come in for classified testimony. Because the disclosure in his one book that he wrote with Colin Kelley her George nap and in the second book. Well, the guy saying he has close personal knowledge. He needs to go to Congress. So I, you know, I don't know James Lakatsky, but I do encourage him to be a fact witness. But going back to that transfer with Lockheed. Long story short can get in all the nuance details. But basically the CIA said fuck you to DIA and Lockheed and it was totally killed. So Harry reads requests to get the material transferred to the OSAP program was totally killed because of bureaucracy and kind of fiefdom stuff.

37:59So they use that money and then they, you know, they wrote those defense intelligence reference documents that D .I .R .D .s is a lot of people who's familiar with it listening will know about. And then they did look at Skinwalker Ranch because they thought that studying kind of the more woo woo phenomenon aspects of this. And I've never been to the ranch. So I've never experienced the ranch for myself. But, you know, obviously, I think we both know a bunch of people that have been to the ranch and have seen some trippy stuff or at least alleged that. They thought that they would be able to gain currency with the with the program, you know, in this case CIA to unlock the key for the Lockheed Martin stuff.

38:45Which actually I'll tell you right now it's like so weird to say that, but I ran that shit through security. Yeah, to me it's like an out of body experience to talk about that kind of detailed sensitivity stuff like that. But, but basically they studied the ranch to gain favor to be like, hey, look at all this stuff we're figuring out, this paranormal stuff that's somehow connected to the phenomenon on the ranch, but ultimately they never gained favor with the government customer. And then the program kind of died a slow death because of a lot of politics in the Pentagon. So that's kind of the long but short of it with the OSAP program that, you know, I wanted to make sure the public knew it's not what you think it was.

39:26There was some other stuff behind the scenes that, you know, I wanted to speak truth to power on. So this particular vehicle that they had recovered from the 1950s, what was the source of it? Where did they find it? Those details, I did not get cleared. So they have in possession this thing, they gain access to this thing, and what do they report once they've gained access to it? Oh, those details I do not know. That's probably a question for Dr. Lacatsky. I presume he knows those details. I don't know. So this thing is housed somewhere. It is, yes, currently. It may still be in the same location that I know about.

40:13And how many people have access to this and how did they prevent this information from being released? I mean, it goes back to the compartmentation and kind of the ecosystem of secrecy in this community, right? You know, only a limited amount of people, you know, at least at the time, you know, on Lockheed Martin's side. And Lockheed Martin was complaining, basically, like, look, like the secrecy is ridiculous. We can't even bring the right engineers. Like, imagine you're like a hot engineer. Oh, hot engineer. Hot shot engineer. It might be hot too. I don't know. But that, you know, your first shot of grad school, maybe you're like the best PhD electrical engineer.

40:54You want to do cool shit. You want to publish an IEEE. You want to like, you know, climb the ladder corporately, you know, and that kind of thing. Lockheed Martin executive comes to you. Yeah, dude. You're going to, I can reach into something really crazy, but you're never going to publish papers on it. You're never going to be able to tell people what you worked on. And it's probably not the most career enhancing. But if you want to work on something cool, but I can't tell you, because it's unacknowledged, until you sign this piece of paper, non -disclosure agreement.

41:31You know, sorry, but here's the raw deal. And, you know, a lot of people are like, fuck you, no. And it's not like Lockheed Martin could broadcast this to universities like, come work for us. You work on crazy shits. But that is very akin to a lot of other black programs in the government that are outing knowledge in nature. You don't know what you're signing up for until you get bred in. And I've, you know, I've been briefed to a lot of that kind of conventional stuff in my career. So that's one of the problems that Bob Lizar, and I'd love to get your take on Bob Lizar, one of the things that he talked about, was that science can't really operate in a vacuum.

42:11When you separate the metallurgists from the propulsion experts, from the biological experts, like, and they're not allowed to communicate with each other, and they're not allowed to bring in other experts to have different. Well, that was the frustration that I had some friends that I've known my entire career, like almost 14 years, right? I literally know them personally. I had a relationship with them, but they ended up, you know, spilling the beans where, you know, look, we're on the program. I'm an engineer for X, Y, and Z. We can't even cross talk across like the cubicles for God's sakes.

42:45Like, I can't, I'm looking at material X doing some X -ray diffraction testing on it, which is like shooting a stream of electrons and seeing how it bends and looking at the atomic arrangements. I can't even like cross talk that with another aspect of the program. This is like ridiculous, and that's kind of their frustration. Yeah, I knew you were probably going to ask me Bob Lizar. I figured as much. Why did they do that, though, if everybody was already sworn to secrecy, if everybody already has NDAs, it seems the most effective way of reverse engineering or at least gaining an understanding of how these things are structured.

43:22Well, that's exactly how Manhattan was, right? People working on the fuses for the bomb didn't necessarily know it was going to a nuclear weapon. And so, and I've seen this kind of compartmentation is up to secrecy in other programs, and it is debilitating for progress. And honestly, as a former fiduciary of the taxpayer dollars, it's not the best modus operendus to do it that way. And very few people kind of had that top down could look across the silos and see what was going on. It just became very dysfunctional, and they were afraid of people being too cross briefed into the different silos for counter espionage, counterintelligence.

44:01They were going to remember a bulk of this program is done during the Cold War, and we were afraid of Russian spy, Soviet moles, and so we made it ultra lock down, but to the detriment of national security. And that was one of the crazy things that got me that I wanted to whistle blow on, because I'm like, this is so stupid. We should be making more progress on this. Were there any breaches that you're aware of, or foreign agents, were able to gain access to materials, or understanding of what we know. So I'll tell you about some intel documents I read that kind of obliquely answers that question.

44:38So, there were sense of human drive for an intelligence that I read. So I had access to kind of the A -tip OSAP classified archives, and I was like thumbing through everything, and there's some other people were bringing me documents to evaluate. And I'll never forget I had to say stolen by the U .S. intelligence assessment from a certain foreign adversary discussing the U .S. reverse engineering program. And I was like, and that was actually another like, what the fuck? And so I had an adversary also confirmed this program literally because of actual traded intelligence. And so they certainly had a limited knowledge, at least fact of that the U .S.

45:29had a program like this, a particular adversary. And actually, I was like, why want more? Like, I know who wrote this, literally, or who got it, right, on behalf of the United States government. So I went to that certain agency through the approved and official way. And this is kind of part of the merious reprisals against me. The agency was like, oh yes, we have what you're looking for Dave. You're going to need to sign a one time read -in to something, you know, come visit us to, you know, go to the vault and read it, right, you know, hard copy. But yes, we have what you're looking for. And ultimately, from what I was told by friends in higher places, my request kind of went up the flagpole of that agency.

46:14And all of a sudden, the agency ghosted my boss and I for like two months. And then when I really pressed them hard to gain access, because I'm like, I have a need to know I need to evaluate this intelligence for fucking Congress. And they debriefed me from all my accesses over in that other sister agency and made up some bogus excuse like I shouldn't have been briefed anything in the first place literally. And basically gave me administrative middle finger like persona non grata don't ever fucking ask us about that shit again. And I'm sure the person who made the oops that told me they had what I was looking for.

46:57Probably got admonished and slapped on the wrist because I never heard from that person again, even though it was somebody I actually used to work on occasion with. So that was also another way I knew I was, you know, there was a lot of smoke and fire because I, you know, had stuff like that happened to me. So this, but knowing that our adversaries were aware of this reverse engineering program, are we aware of their reverse engineering programs? Yeah. Which countries. You could probably guess. And you wouldn't be, it won't be too shocking. Okay, okay, but I won't acknowledge what the US may know.

47:42Right. So are we aware of numbers in terms of like a, at least a rough estimate of how many are available to these other. Yeah. How many? I can't, that's like soup. There's more than one. Yeah. You could read into that. You could read into that. Yeah. And has anyone made any progress? Yeah, I can't get into, if we've made progress, if they've made progress, because that's like straight up some national security stuff. But like, I want the, just to be clear, I want the US populace to learn a lot of this. And this is why, you know, another reason why I went public is like, I need to call everybody else.

48:23I'm not here to admonish the entire government mind you. But there is an element of the US government and its clear defense contractor base that, you know, we have a three branch of government oversight issue, like going back to Harry Reid. Harry Reid didn't even get access. I fucking talked to myself to confirm that. And he said he was going to go talk to Biden. Because I think there needs to be a disclosure plan. And this goes back to what's currently in legislation right now that's super fucking important. Because 90 some 90 some odd percent of this should should be open for public discovery, public analysis and academia.

49:05This should be like at very least true nuclear program, such as nuclear physics, you study any university, nuclear weapons classified. Because that makes people in the pink mist. That's really sensitive. We don't need everybody to know how to do that. So I think the stuff that is like legit weapons related stuff that's like straight up national superiority stuff. Sure. Reasonably classify that. But but this these programs we need to change. And that's why you saw the Schumer amendment, right? And I think you might have read that on air or something in a previous episode. I remember correctly, you know, Chuck Schumer.

49:47And I knew about the amendment a couple months before I went public. And that's kind of another reason why I did what I did. I'm like, fuck, I'm like the only guy that kind of has the opportunity to do this. I know what's in the shoot. So to speak, the Chuck Schumer and his staff had with the Schumer amendment, which is 67 pages of literal. We want to disclose. And I'm like, I have to spike the football by going public because, you know, I can read the tea leaves on the hill. And I think that they were hesitant to do anything without being able to point to something publicly. And I'm like, oh, be that fucking guy and just send it.

50:26And then, of course, a month after I went public, I guess I pushed Chuck Schumer over the ledge. And I do know he talked to the White House about the amendment, too, because not like Chuck Schumer is going to propose groundbreaking legislation like that without talking to the national security advisor or president. Like, I imagine he did so. And, you know, so you have the 67 page amendments, right? It's called the UAP Disclosure Act of 2023. Known as the Schumer amendment, co -sponsors were young, Gillibrand, Rubio, rounds, yeah, and young. And, you know, kudos for those senators were stepping up to the plate because they know this is real.

51:08I know what meetings they've had with certain other individuals that are, you know, even more credible than myself. And so this, this act, which is like super important, is currently in conference. As we speak, in Capitol Hill, so the amendment is wrapped in something called the fiscal year 2024 National Defense Authorization Act. So that is the act that funds the military basically every year, right? So it's an amendment within this bill. And the act is really long, but the main meat of it is about halfway through the act that talks about a presidential panel or agency, which is nine person. And a controlled UAP Disclosure Plan that six years in length, conceivably from 2024 to 2030.

51:56And this panel, and you can read this, this is public law. I mean, but it can read this. They want a scientist economist, you know, sociologists, et cetera. It's kind of like who you would want to help craft the plan for the president. And this whole bill was actually built off the JFK Records Act, which I know like they're like, well, they never released all the records. Well, we put some teeth in the bill, some eminent domains, some other stuff, the, you know, kind of forced the issue. Now granted, the chief executive, the president has the final say the panel can't compel the executive to do it.

52:31But like, I hope the president does. And I support that. But so the Senate already passed it. They're chill with this. This is like, we're good to go. And, but there's push back in the house right now that is, you know, part of my language, fucking ridiculous. So they're saying for one, it's duplicating the DOD Aero's office activities. They're doing good things. They're looking at UAP reports, trying to figure out what's balloons and air trash and what's weird stuff. And of course, they are doing an historical review to try to understand the US's history on this too. But the problem is with that agency, it, it's within the DOD and I see not above.

53:14So you have an issue reaching into Department of Energy, other, you know, cabinet level agencies. So you need a presidential level panel that can declassify stuff, reach into other agencies and tell, you know, certain secretaries were coming in. We want your stuff under presidential authority. So what's happening in the house from what I'm told from people on the hill that are working the issue right now. You have the chair of the House Intel Committee, Mike Turner, who's blocking us from Ohio, Dayton, Ohio area, right Pat, weird. And... Right Pat, meaning right Paterson, yeah. And Mike Rogers, which I'm kind of surprised from Alabama, who's the chair of the House Armed Services Committee.

54:01So I have a problem with Mike and Mike right now. So Mike Turner, now remember, I went to his committee in December last year. He wasn't there, but his staff and lawyers were. And of course, he goes on Fox Business. After the hearing, doesn't use my name like this whistleblower, he has no idea what he's talking about. I'm like, really? Tell me Mike, have you ever been an Intel officer or served in the military? Oh wait, you've been the mayor of Dayton, Ohio. You were voted most corrupt person in Congress a couple years ago. And pull up his pack donors, who are his biggest donors, Lockheed, Raytheon, Boeing.

54:42Okay. So... And first of all, if you thought you needed more information or wanted to talk to me personally, why didn't you call me back when I reported to your committee. So... And furthermore, besides blocking the bill, I'm sure you're familiar with like Representative Timber -Shet of Alabama. And he's been very outspoken on the issue. And we may not agree with everything Tim says about conventional stuff. That's, you know, here and now there, but, you know, he's been a champion on the oversight committee. And he was, you know, one of the members that I testified in public under oath regarding this.

55:17So like... And Mike Turner is looking to fund, according to staffers I've talked to last two weeks, an opposition candidate for Tim's reelection in 2024. So why is Mike Turner going out of his way to destroy the career of a courageous Tennessee representative on the oversight committee? And why are you blocking a bill, and it's not going to cost much, a couple million a year max, you know, for the panel, which is like vaporware in US government speak, right? If there's nothing in the sea here, why are Mike Rogers and Mike Turner in the house blocking this bill that is, in my opinion, the most important legislation for transparency in American history, if there's nothing to see here, if I'm fucking crazy, multi -star generals I talk to are crazy, the Intel docs that I read are incorrect, they're fucking forgeries or passage material or something like that.

56:15Good friends of mine that worked on the program are bullshitting me in some concerted operation against me and my colleagues that it would be totally crazy to even conduct that because I took precautions. Then why don't we just pass this and see what happens? And why, what do you think the answer to that is? Special interests want to keep the genie in the bottle, even though the toothpaste is coming out of the tube, and I think it's like a death rattle in this industrial complex that doesn't want change, and I'm not here to be psych some total adversary. I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process on this issue.

56:53I'm not here to throw people in jail, I'm not here for big contractors involved to lose money. I think this would be a boon, and I think the leadership in these companies need to think about this where if former open with this, you can hire people, you can push the subject into undergraduate graduates and postdoctoral programs of research to study this in an unclassified, just like nuclear physics. And this answers a fundamental question for humanity. Are we alone or what happens when we die? Well, I don't know about that, but are we alone? Well, the answer is we're not alone. And I know that with 100 % certainty, which as an intel officer, you never say 100%, but all things pointed towards based on the people I talk to, like Harry Reid.

57:48And I use him as an example, but I talk to the highest of the high people you could possibly talk to catch my drift, so. Unless all them are lying and they're covering up something else, which I don't even know what it would be at this point, because the phenomenon is real. It's been going on for thousands of years. People have been seeing strange things and not everybody's mass hallucinating. So that's kind of my long diet tribe about what's happening. What do they think these things are? The people that you talk to. So they specifically, the people on the program that handle the material that were in executive level briefings with intel community leaders and other folks over the years, last 20 years or so.

58:32They did use the term extraterrestrial ET or whatever. Okay, that is an impossible origin, but the Schumer amendment, if you read it, it specifically uses non -human intelligence and H .I. Very deliberately, because we want to catch everything, because what if some of this stuff is not ET, and they're going to use as an escape clause? Well, this stuff that we don't even know if it's extraterrestrial, so this doesn't apply. So that's why we wanted to be as broad as possible. I mean, besides ET, I mean, a lot of it would be my own personal opinion. I think we have a couple conceivable buckets, and I'm using the work of Jacques Valet, other people that have thought deeply on the issue, on how the phenomenon has changed since antiquity.

59:24It showed itself in a different way, like a good example is like witches sitting on your chest phenomenon with paralysis and medieval and enlightenment area. You know, era became this alien abduction phenomenon in the modern area, era, excuse me, and is it, is it the recipient and their analytical overlay cognitively seeing the phenomenon based on a modern interpretation inside out, or is the phenomenon, this is like Jacques Valet's book Passport to Magnolia, Magnolia, I can pronounce it right 1969, where he talks about the phenomenon seems to like masquerade itself is different stuff over the years, but you know, we've seen roughly the same stuff.

1:00:12If you look at the few fighters of World War II, there are declassified Air Force OSI reports from the 50s, people can Google the talk about flying butane tanks with the same measurements approximately what we saw in the 2004 tic tac incident, but they called it flying propane or, you know, butane tanks in the 50s. So, from a morphology or in the Air Force intel, we call it his wrecky visual reconnaissance like they basically look the same and we can back as myth that, you know, decades, if not hundreds of years in the past, you know, wheels of execule right they're seeing these like disc type objects right and unless execule is tripping or this is an allegory or fable in the in the Bible, you know, let's say the event happens just like the in the Vedic text you have the battles the blue people in the battles in the sky that sound like nuclear and directed energy weapons like what's going on there, I mean, maybe that's a Graham Hancock or Randall Carlson type thing they could they know more than I.

1:01:16So, there is a real phenomenon that origin undetermined, but it's trippy and sometimes it presents itself in like a non corporeal form too, you know, orbs balls of energy, you know, they don't appear as like some kind of bipedal hominid like some people have expo. So, I think that might be call it interdimensional, call it shadow biome, crypto teresh. I mean, there's a lot of different theories. What are the primary theories are from another planet or from another dimension. I think those are the primary, I mean, there's certainly origins that we probably can't conceptualize as humans because we're just our meat is stuck in 3D and we don't understand and our IQs are only so high.

1:02:07So, there might be some origins that we don't understand in terms of like interdimensional travel. Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, if you talk to mainstream physicists, they say like crossing dimensions physically is kind of a trope of sci -fi and you know, that's why I used an example. And I know some physicists don't like me talking about this theory, but it is a theory, you know, like so the holographic principle, which was originally conceived to explain how information is encoded on an event horizon of a black hole, which is a distance away from the singularity of a black hole where if you cross it, you're fucked because you're going to get ripped the shreds or you're not coming back.

1:02:48And that principle talks about how information basically from higher dimensional space can be encoded in lower dimensional space. And the easiest example is like us casting a shadow on a sidewalk, right, three -dimensional object, 2D shadow on a sidewalk. If you lived in two dimensional space, flatland, you'd be tripped out. What the fuck am I seeing? But they just don't know that it's really just a person in higher dimensional space. So as some of the, I mean, obviously we have physical material that's in three dimensional space that we've recovered, but at least maybe some of the phenomenon is really operating in higher spatial dimensions, but as either being projected or quasi projected into our 3D plus time space, which is really trippy to think about, but we literally do it on a day -to -day basis like casting shadows.

1:03:43So, and that might be some of what we're seeing too, but I mean, I presume we know more that people I talked to did not expose they had full knowledge either. Like I said, the normal colloquialism was to say ET or extraterrestrial. Could you dumb down this concept of interdimensional? Like, yeah, what I know in physics, they have theorized that there are multiple dimensions other than those that we can currently detect. Yeah, and a lot of that is based off of like, Loroge, this is my bachelor's degree talking. I know there's going to be like some physicist who has a PhDs like, oh, take a few fuck that up.

1:04:21But basically, you know, from high energy particle collisions and based on the flexion angles and all this stuff, what happens when the particles collide, you know, confirm certain theoretical frameworks about extra spatial dimensions. And, you know, I can't speak with any real authority on precisely how that works, but a lot of, whether it be string theory or quantum mechanics are based off of higher spatial dimensions. And, you know, so that is a mainstream physics theoretical framework that's not like wacky or loony or anything like that. But that's basically a possibility. But like I said, like, we don't really have a good theory if you work, if you lived in like 5D space, for example.

1:05:12It's almost like, um, remember the ending of the movie interstellar, right? Where he's pushing the books. He's like in a Tesseract, you know, which is like a four to five D structure, but he's trying to interact with 3D space. And of course, he like leaves that space to come back to his daughter many years later at the end of the end of the movie. Great movie. But, um, so that's a way to conceptualize it in something you may have watched in film. It's kind of like the ending of interstellar. Oh, yeah, there you go. Yeah, which is based on what, like what theory. So the physicist Kip Thorn was the very famous guy.

1:05:52He was a big black hole and wormhole guy. I think it's Caltech or somewhere in California. Kip Thorn actually did all the physics equations and everything for Christopher Nolan to make sure that they were conceptualizing and visualizing black holes and wormholes and all that stuff correctly in the movie. He re -selected the halo around the black hole when they were coming in with the ship and everything. That's actually based off of real physics models that Kip Thorn did the calculations for, which is pretty cool actually that Christopher Nolan took it to that level, you know. So this idea that these beings or whatever you want to call them exist in some other dimension.

1:06:34Do we have, I mean, I don't know what you can say about this. Do we have an understanding? Do we have any sort of communication with these beings that give us some sort of an understanding or a map of this? Yeah, the interaction stuff. It's a sensitive area. There were multiple very senior people that were concerned about talking about that kind of stuff with me. I mean, that is certainly as nuts as it sounds, that was a real subject to conversation. Even it sounds like something out of like Star Trek first contact. But it doesn't if you have vehicles. Yeah, so it's, it's like once you realize the phenomenon's real, then you realize we've recovered artifacts and, you know, biologics or, you know, dead pilots, if you will, even that's, you know, kind of creepy to even think about that in your world view.

1:07:29You don't think they were ever, you know, alive sometimes too, right? And I'll, you know, leave it at that only because that, you know, that is something, you know, the president in his cabin needed to disclose this in a controlled manner going back to that amendment, you know, I'm not here to push the subject in an improper way. And that sounds like, why don't you just do it Dave? Like there's a lot of secondary and tertiary ramifications, socioeconomically, theologically, or relationship geopolitically with our allies and adversaries. This is not rip off the bandaid and it's simple. There's a lot of complex stuff behind the scenes that need to happen.

1:08:14And that's why I'm, I'm laying out all the general stuff that needs to be talked about during the disclosure process. But I should not be the one disclosing and it would be highly inappropriate because I care about the health of the United States and its people and national security for me to do so. So I know there's people that are like, oh, it isn't Dave say X, Y and Z. It's like, this is serious. This is not like, how, let me tell you a good story. I'm a serious guy. I ruined my fucking career doing this. I was going to make Lieutenant Colonel in the Air Force in this winter. I was on track to be, you know, a flag officer equivalent civilian in my career.

1:08:52I spent 18 years in uniform if you count the cadet time, right? My whole adult life was serving as an intel officer. But I wanted to see, and I'm 36 right, older millennial. I wanted to see change. So I'm throwing the flag out and I'm here to hold the government accountable to do the right thing in a manner that is mature and thorough because I don't begin to say that I know everything all the different ramifications of saying certain things publicly. I don't know all the answers to that. And that's why I have to be careful because I don't even know, I'll call it collateral damage effects to use kind of a military term.

1:09:34What may happen of certain things in detail that are revealed that I might not know the ramifications thereof because there's something that I'm not privy to. So this is like a serious, this is not like a fun situation. This is like a humanity changing, hopefully in a good way. But this is like, you know, quite serious. And I, you know, risked my personal and professional life and personal life because things have happened to me to be public like this. And, you know, I swore an oath, but, you know, myself and my generation, you know, want to see a change. Can you discuss the things that have happened to you personally?

1:10:13Yeah. So a lot of the stuff, I have to be purposely vague because there's an open inspector general reprisal investigation on my behalf. And I'm not here to compromise the investigation by tipping off my antibodies that may be watching right now. But, you know, when I really started looking into this, I mean, they came after me so hard to try to revoke my clearance, ruin my career, kicked me out of my agency. And they accused me of everything you could possibly think of with like no evidence. For example, at first they wanted to say, oh, Dave, you have mental health stuff. You didn't report to us.

1:10:58We're concerned because we think you might have an ongoing mental health issue. I'm like, what are you talking about? I reported that I had PTSD from Afghanistan and my military service several years ago. And I sought out for that. Like, I'm not ashamed of that. You know, I'm high functioning autistic. And I didn't know that until my early 30s and how I processed trauma. I didn't really understand until many years later. And, you know, I sought help for that. And they were trying to say that like, I had some secret mental health problem that I haven't been reporting to. So I had to go through this whole process.

1:11:36Three agencies at the same time investigated me for that. Which I don't even know if that's like legal. They tried to say that I like mishandled class of all this other stuff. It was insane. Apparently, I was under criminal investigation for a couple of months. And I didn't even know that and nor did they interview me, but they made a finding with no evidence they tried to use against me that I had to spend money to basically litigate and maintain my employment and my clearance, which I did for the record. I maintain my clearance. I resigned with full accesses. You know, I'm just debrief now, but I maintained my top secret eligibility.

1:12:16And I left with my own accord. And so, and of course, they ruined one of my boss's careers in another agency. They walked them out of the building and revoked his clearance and terminated him as a show of force after they were going after me. And I feel sorry for that certain individual. And they came after co -workers of mine. I can't get into who and when and why to protect their identities and their own process. But so that's what happened to me professionally. And then what happened to me personally was very disturbing. So I have to be very vague about this because ongoing investigation, but I think you'll understand what I'm saying is they showed my wife and I they can touch me at any time, two times.

1:13:09And it was very disturbing. It was in conjunction with some other people getting a message like that that are to say publicly well known. Some that aren't publicly well known. And of course, I immediately reported that to, you know, counterintelligence, federal law enforcement local to me because it wasn't criminal, but it was like a fuck you to me. And this was right before I found my whistleblower complaint. Now, I don't know who did this. You know, and entity who did X, Y and Z to my wife and I identity unknown, but it fucking happens. And I, you know, provided that documentation to a couple special agents.

1:13:49And I just knew that it was getting serious. And, you know, as, first of all, I'm the kind of person I'm from Pittsburgh, you know, like, the old town, I'll take shit from people. And I decided, fuck it. I'm going to file an inspector general complaint to protect myself. I don't, I'm in fear for my safety. You know, my wife's in Air Force veteran too. And, you know, very strong individual, but, you know, as a man, you don't want to put your family at risk. And, you know, did certain other measures, which I won't talk about to protect myself, you know, physically. And I could not believe that that was happening to me.

1:14:32No kidding. And I knew I needed to do something internally. And then when I saw the writing on the wall earlier this year, and of course a new but the Schumer amendment, like I mentioned earlier, and I knew I'm like, you know, I got to do this for my own protection because me leaving the federal service because I resigned my Air Force commission. I totally threw that career away to do what I thought was the right and patriotic thing to whistle blow on this, you know, and I, you know, swore my oath 18 years ago, and that sounds hokey, but I believe, you know, integrity for a service for self and excellence, all we do, that's the Air Force motto.

1:15:11And I'm like, I, this is not going to help me personally. Like, love talking to you, I like spreading this message because it's the right and ethical thing to do, but this is a nightmare for me. I don't want to be public. I've served the country in clandestine and covert operations for 14 years. I've done technical intelligence for some of the most high profile takedowns in US history. I shouldn't even be here, but I am because I want to see change. I saw something unethical and immoral. I want to make sure I hold that element of the government accountable. And it was the right fucking thing to do.

1:15:50And I get kind of emotional about that because, you know, my career has been service and sacrifice. And, you know, I had two friends of mine die and I've talked about this publicly before. And I, you know, I'm segwaying a little bit, but the suffering of the American intelligence officer is something that for their service of their country. And I'm not talking about this subject, obviously. People don't realize the kind of trauma intel professionals go through. So, first of all, I had a friend six months after I got back from Afghanistan. His name is Captain Dave Lyon. There's a park and Petersen Space Force Base named after him.

1:16:31I remember seeing his cough and come off the plane. So, you know, I saw him die. That fucked me up for a number of years. And that's what, you know, gave me a lot of my problems that I ended up dealing with. But then I had, I remarried. And then my best man, Captain Ben Heine, Air Force Intelligence Officer, Air Force Special Operations Command. I've known for years. He's my closest friend. You know, best man at my wedding. And then 28 days later, unfortunately, he suffered from depression. And it was, you know, as his best friend, he didn't even confide in me. You know, I remember chitchatting him, chitchatting with him on the phone one day about 28 days after he was my best man.

1:17:13And he didn't tell me anything was wrong with him. And a few hours later, he walked in his backyard and shot himself. And, you know, I gave his eulogy. That is, it is, it is funeral. And that really, you know, really affected me. And with what Ben experienced, which I can't get into all of the stuff he did, obviously. But imagine being the guy that decides that that person is bad, fire the heral fire. That person is now pink mist. They're dead. You just played God. Let's go back to, you know, the wife and kids at the end of your shift. And a lot of that, you know, I did the same kind of thing.

1:17:56I did a lot of stuff overseas involved interrogations. And, you know, ops that you had to decide if a target is bad enough where you're going to affect their life forever and their family's life forever. And that's the silent suffering of intel professionals, especially during the global war and terror, which is, you know, 21 years or so. And, you know, the trauma and the mental health problems that people get from being an intel professional and operational environment. People think like special operators, pilots, et cetera, you know, ground army Marines, ground pounders, and they certainly have their own trauma.

1:18:37But it's this weird and serious, am I in a video game? Is this real trauma that intelligence professionals? And I just wanted to highlight that during the show because that was just a near and dear to myself. So people are aware of the service of military intelligence and civilian intelligence professionals, so that's have to make really tough decisions for the country that affect people's lives on the receiving it, you know. So was there a concern while you're going through all this that if you didn't come out with this, that we would be stuck in the same sort of loop for a long, long period of time and no one would ever have access to this stuff.

1:19:19That they would continue. Yeah. Yeah. And that you nailed it on the head is, you know, I think my generation wants to change the under 40 generation. Their parents went to war. Their older brothers went to war. We're fighting two dangerous proxy wars right now, which is extremely stupid. I mean, a better way of saying it, be quite frank, and I can give you my own assessment on that if you want, but I like we're in this loop. We're not progressing in a healthy way. As a civilization, you know, it's becoming more divisive whether on the left or the right. You know, people aren't even looking up all they care about is TikTok, you know, we're creating potentially dangerous artificial intelligence, you know, I even saw that in my government service.

1:20:05And I think humanity is kind of stuck right now and we need to change. And this subject is like one of the only unifying ontologically shocking, but I would think generally unifying topics were where if announced by, you know, the US and other, you know, major powers that have knowledge in a controlled manner, that this could change humanity for the better, make us look inside ourselves, become less divisive, and care maybe a little less about superficial things. So, so that's kind of my philosophical motivation to do what I did. And you confronted with one of the biggest mysteries in human history.

1:20:50Yeah, which is our real own. And it seems like at least some people have the answer to that. 100%. I mean, the people I talked to certainly did, and they had close personal knowledge and the intel reports I read, you know, literally indicated that as well. I can talk to about earlier. And it just, so it's like this caste system. I call it dudes with SCI clearances do not have an embargo on reality. So, it's a caste system of, you know, people in government and outside of government, the industrial complex that run this stuff under little oversight. And, you know, I remember some of the people who denied us access.

1:21:30They were like, you know, you know, I don't know what you're talking about, but if I did, why would you have a need to know? And I'm like, well, why did you have a need to know? You're just some multi star general. You're a human being. You're a human being. You're not better than me. I mean, who determines need to know on a humanistic question. It's like basic fact of life. Why are we classifying fact of life at this day and age in 2023? It's insane. And the answer to that would be national security. Yeah, it's a two national security, right? So, like, why we classify stuff? It's called executive order 13 526, right?

1:22:14Section 1 .4, sections E and F are why we classify science stuff, why we classify nuclear stuff? It's like a one liner. It's very vague. And you saying this is these basic facts should be classified? Are you saying that this fits in this bill? And, you know, and you notice the Schumer amendment, if anybody reads it, awkwardly calls out the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, right? And they're basically treating this as nuclear secrets because it gives off, you know, nuclear radiation. Because if you look at the ultra vague definition of special nuclear material, which is Section 51 of the Atomic Energy Act in 1954, it says anything that gives off a sizable amount of atomic energy.

1:23:05Literally, that's what it says. Well, what's sizable and what legal gymnastics are you saying? This stuff, which is obviously not a, well, who knows, maybe it is a nuclear weapon. And you're saying this is a US nuclear secret, your trans classifying it into a nuclear secret, which I understand maybe at first, why they did that? And I'm not admonishing the hard decisions that presidents and other folks did many years ago, when this was more of an enigma, and we wanted to, like, lock it down, figure it out, and then see what we're going to do. But there's never been a disclosure plan. I always asked that, like, to the super senior people I've talked to, was there a plan?

1:23:48Any kind of plan at all? And they're like, no, never. We tried the money to waters back, and then, you know, tried to put it out there and test the populace, but, you know, there was never any cogent plan. I mean, people think the government is like this fine oiled machine, they have plans for everything. Well, I guess sort of, but like, it's not. I mean, look at the war in terrorism. We left Afghanistan, no general officer, Mattis Patreus, Macrystal, I call them the failed generals. People allowed them, but really themselves in the Obama administration, Bush administration, except, you know, Trump, whatever, nobody had a cogent plan for success.

1:24:31And we were fighting people who are much less of an adversary than like one of our peers or near peers. And we couldn't even win that war. Like, what the fuck are we doing? But these protracted endless wars. Let's be real. It's good for the industrial complex. Right. So, and I'm not like in monitoring the whole industrial complex for the record, you know, we need national lethality. We need weapons to kill bad guys because there's evil people in the world. But you got to control, you know, some of it though. Well, that's a part of the problem with people that have secrets. It's like once you have secrets, and part of your identity is the holder of those secrets.

1:25:10Yeah. And part of the culture of these industries is that they are the ones that have the access to that. Yeah. And I saw that in conventional, really black programs. That was a part of my career. It was almost like, you got that secret society vibe where it's like, if you're a career government servant, your salary is not that great, but knowledge is your currency. And what makes you special? What rice bowl do you control? And I remember getting read into some stuff that like it was like the president and very limited number of people getting read into. And I was one of them because I was operating a certain thing for a certain op.

1:25:53And oh, you're a part of the club, you know, like only 30 people are clear and whatever. And I'm like, I don't get off on this. It's so weird. But like these like lifers. And I hate to, you know, talk so matter of fact about it. But like it just, it's kind of disgusting to me because it's like, it's weird. It's like a weird, like, nostic cultish thing. And, you know, I live that community for 14 years in my career. People really do enjoy having information other people don't have access to. I was like, I got a secret. And like, that's why I whistle blood. Okay. So I know this shit's real. I know they're we're not alone.

1:26:31We have stuff. No shit. Am I going to sit on my ass for 30, 40 years? I'm an old man. I look back like, I had that secret. I knew about it. But I didn't do anything. I didn't. So I couldn't just keep that secret because I thought it was just perverse and wrong that the people don't even at least get to know the basics. It's insane. So when it comes to these, I'm going to bring it back to these, these actual entities. Yeah. Do we know, or we do have an understanding of how many of them we're talking about and the variety of them. Well, yeah, there is a variety. And we have a certain number of different things.

1:27:15But the like total numbers of like what's interacting with us on earth. I mean, nobody knows that. And I mean, that there's an understanding of some that they do believe are interacting with us. And there's a variety in terms of there's variables. Yeah, I talked to people who are familiar with the biological analysis and everything. So we have some idea, not a complete picture because it's like, you know, you're looking at it. It's like, well, I don't even understand the physiology at all. It's like, what the heck? It's like way different. Right. So we have a restriction of this physiology. Yeah, no, I was in, I was in the room when, I'll be careful.

1:27:59I don't want to, I was in Washington, D .C. with a very number of senior people that work for members of Congress. Brut that way. When I was still in governments. And I brought the people who worked on that stuff to the hill. I mean, this is why the members were so confident to put out the Schumer amendment and stuff. And I was like, please explain. And they went into all those details and stuff. And I remember, you know, some of the professional staff members were like, like, they were like in G -lock, right? Because I mean, it like a total world bubble got burst right there for a lot of people.

1:28:44And so we, we have some idea. It's not a complete picture. I mean, it's just like, but you're not even bringing the right, the right people. Like I think about my friend and colleague, Dr. Gary Nolan, which I started the Soul Foundation nonprofit with, I mean, he's like, you know, no bell level biologist, virologist, like he's the guy that you would want on it, but he's not on it. So I think we can make a lot of progress in our understanding. Once again, if this is more broadly studied in an open environment, you were the Nixon Jackie Gleason story. Vaguely, I stayed away from ufology because I had these contemporary people that were inside.

1:29:28I could check every other credentials where they worked, et cetera. But I'm vaguely familiar where what was it like Nixon brought Jackie Gleason to some facility and showed him some stuff or something like that? Yeah, supposedly that's the story. And it's very, it's very hard to determine the origin of the story or whether or not it's real. It came from, there's a story about one article that was supposedly public. Was it Vanity Fair? And you can't find the story. But Jackie Gleason, by all accounts, was obsessed with UFOs and even built a home in upstate New York that looked like a flying saucer.

1:30:07Oh, really? Yeah, this is the house. He had this house constructed supposedly after he had this meeting with Nixon. So Nixon, supposedly they were drinking Jackie Gleason and Nixon or Tyron went on and Nixon's like, you want to see some shit? And they fly to wherever this base is. And he shows them these frozen biological entities and this retrieved vehicle. And then Jackie Gleason becomes a fanatic, obviously. That's crazy. Yeah. I mean, not crazy, but that's interesting that a president would do that to like an unclear celebrity friend of his like, let me just show you the most sensitive shit our country has.

1:30:52I don't know. It's got a crazy to people are obsessed with celebrity. You know, there's even world leaders, you know, kings and queens of, you know, there've always been obsessed with famous people. And Jackie Gleason at the time was incredibly famous and also beloved. Right. Yeah. So this is my pal and I'm drunk. I want to see some shit. You know, I get it. I want to hang out with Nixon if that's how it was like. Well, I bet he was probably wild. I bet he was like that in a lot of ways. You know, I mean, Hunter S Thompson famously recalled his, yeah, there's a two of them meeting together. Famously recalled sitting in the back seat of a limo with Nixon talking about football.

1:31:34And he's like, God, if I didn't think he was a piece of shit, I actually kind of like him. That's funny. Yeah. We're just talking football. Yeah. You know, look, nobody in that job, nobody as a president is going to be loved by everyone. And I'm sure Nixon has positive qualities. And, you know, if Jackie Gleason liked them, I'm a giant Jackie Gleason fan. He's probably probably fun to hang out with. Yeah. And if you're drunk and, you know, you're the president. And also we're talking about the 1970s. Right. So this is a different world. You know, like even if you tell anybody who the fuck's going to believe you, you don't have, you can't get on TikTok.

1:32:09Like, what are you going to do? How are you going to get this information out? Well, exactly. And that's kind of how, you know, my personal opinion, you know, how the program was protected, right? For make, make it crazy. Right. So if anybody leaks anything or, you know, that has an authorized disclosure. Yeah. People are going to think you're fucking nuts. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. But there are actual reports that we have biological remains. Yes. Oh, yes. Yes. How many? It's up there as well, just like with the, in the area, there's different kinds. Do we have an understanding that you don't have to answer where, of where they came from?

1:32:55Nobody I talked to expoused any specific origin to me. We may know that, but I'm not aware of anything. So I don't know. Are there reports of some kind of interaction with these things where they're giving information or discussing the problems of humanity and possible solutions or explaining why they're here? Interactions was a sensitive subject that my interview subjects did not want to get into. I suppose that there's probably detailed documentation of those interactions that goes into a lot of the stuff you're asking. I truly don't even know the answer to a lot of that. But is there discussions amongst these people that there have been these sort of.

1:33:45There was water cooler talk with some people I talked to in the program. I love water cooler. Yeah, they're like, hey, bro, guess what I overheard in some weird meeting. Right. But that is, the problem with that is it's like secondary information. Right. And I'm so anal retinive, unless that person told me I had close, personal, I touched it, whatever. Like cool, well, you're coming to the inspector general where I'm going to at least give them your name because that's what you told me. And then obviously I did that. So those people who physically were there were on the program did the thing. I brought to the inspector general.

1:34:22Are there discussions of interactions with live beings? There was some water cooler talk about that kind of thing. But you know, I don't even want to get into it because it's like, there were some details provided to me. But it's like, it's secondary. And I don't know if that's like the telephone game. And I don't know if it was hyperboleized in any way, you know, in the break room, so to speak. So I just, I'm so anal about making sure what I say is accurate. I don't, you know, I don't know. Do we have an understand? I mean, if there have been these discussions, do we have an understanding of when they first took place?

1:35:02Yeah, some specific events were mentioned to me and I provided that information in a classified setting. And how far back did they go? Pretty far back. It's pretty weird. Yeah. So well, one of the stories from Roswell that's fascinating to me is that Eisenhower had the wreckage flown to Wright Patterson Air Force Base in two separate jets in case one of them crashed. There has been some public testimony. So general debos, there were some old timers that at least, you know, did some videos in like the 90s. Like, I'm, I'm Brigadier General Exxon. Here's what I heard. Whatever. I mean, that's out there in the open source.

1:35:47So, yeah. Yeah. And there was always a discussion of hangar 18, right? If you're a hangar 18, there's a lot of hangars. That's the wall for whatever reason. I think it was maybe a movie. Was there a movie? Well, you know, it's, you know, it's funny. Speaking of Senators being denied, there's a video in the late 80s of Senator Barry Goldwater of Goldwater Dickles Act famed right here. He was a two -star general in the Air Force Reserve. And like, literally, this video is like on YouTube. It's like hard to find though. But Jesse Michaels on American Alchemy put together, I think, a short video yesterday.

1:36:22And there's like a section in there where he actually has that Goldwater interview. But general Goldwater is like, yeah. One day I called Curtis Lemay is a very famous Air Force general and was like, general, I heard that there's this room that you, you know, have UFO material. And Barry Goldwater exposes in this interview like, yeah, and Lemay got matter, matter, then hell at me. And told me never to fucking ask about that again. I might have added the F word in there just for, for fun. For fun. But yeah, it's bad. It's in the military too long. My wife tells me to be careful with my language all the time around my niece and nephew.

1:37:01But even Barry Goldwater knew that we had UFO material. He asked General Lemay when he was in the Air Force in General Lemay, basically told him to fuck off. And that is a literal interview you can Google. So a lot of this like, people disclosing fact of has really been out in the vernacular for a long time. But nobody really cared because about everybody was just kind of like desensitized from the whole subject and thought it was wacky. And I'm not the first former government official to confirm that. Yeah, Goldwater and all these other Harry Reid who made the same disclosure to the New Yorker a month after I talked to him in person.

1:37:43Yeah, Melina said stuff. Louis Luzando said, you know, he believes we have material on. I think it was Tucker Carlson a couple years ago. So there's certainly been other officials. Now I'm just trying to spike the football and take it all the way to the end zone here. And luckily we have a Congress that's mostly motivated minus Mike Rogers and Mike Turner. You're not you're getting cool in your stockings. I'm going to make sure your office gets cool. And they want change to and they realize it's time for a change and presumably Chuck Schumer's talk to Jake Sullivan and President Biden. And you know who's in the White House right now is John Podesta.

1:38:31He is the green energies are or something like that in the White House, but John Podesta. Shout out to John Podesta in the White House. He has an axe to grind on this issue too. Because remember, he tweeted at the end of Obama's second term, you know, my biggest failure was not to have Obama released the UFO file and made the same kind of statement with Clinton. So certainly if Mr. Podesta is listening in the White House, you know, I'm here to help. You know, I hope that you're champion this within the executive office of the president. And you know, the other speaking of people like Goldwater who have made some weird non -sequitur kind of admissions.

1:39:13There's a John Stossel interview of Mike Pompeo, the former CIA director, about two years ago or so. You can find it online where Pompeo talks about the JFK file and like dismisses it or something about like there's no boogey man here. But then he quickly says, oh, I've seen the UFO file too and we have bigger problems. But for at least the way it was edited, John Stossel didn't even follow up. At least the way the final cut was, I'm like, dude, if I was John Stossel, I'm like, what do you mean Mike Pompeo? You've seen the UFO file and we have bigger problems. And UFO file, the way I interpret that is a long existing file or briefing document or something that he had access to.

1:40:05So I think the former CIA director, Mike Pompeo, should probably clarify what he said two years ago. If anybody interviews him next, ask Mike that question. What did he mean? Yeah, we have bigger problems. Well, we certainly have bigger problems in terms of our current existence. Specifically with what you were talking about earlier, the proxy wars and collapses in society as we know it, which just seems to be there. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I feel for the Ukrainian and the Israeli people, you know, I'm not taking any particular side. But certainly people forget USAID and these wars. What's the like most expensive thing if you've studied phases of conflict?

1:40:44It's the reconstruction costs after the conflict. So we in it for like triple digit billions like the war and terror. I mean, certainly the Israeli conflict is a great distraction because you know, like Russia is very tight with Iran, right? And personal opinion, you know, this is just my own personal opinion, but I, you know, I'm sure they commiserated and was like, can you start a two front war? Because we would like to win a new crane and this will distract the US because Israel is a long time, you know, Middle East ally. So it's brilliant, it's brilliant public opinion. I mean, the virtue signalers on social media have essentially completely forgotten about Ukraine.

1:41:28It's all about Israel and Palestine. Yeah, you don't even see it. And I understand, you know, but the National Security Council determination was that they've discussed publicly where there's kind of like trying to drain the Russia's, you know, military capability and annexation of Ukrainian territory. Because they don't want Russia's sphere of influence to further enter that caucus region and stuff. But yeah, it's funny. Like you said, it's like you don't even talk about Ukraine. It's all about Israel now and which is a horrible conflict on both sides. Like it's just it's unfortunate. So without a doubt, yeah, it's that it was a very interesting statement though that we have bigger problems.

1:42:11So even if we do, this seems to be like, this is such a human question because it's one of the biggest mysteries. Obviously, you know, there's the Fermi paradox. Where are they, right? If you look out and if you look out into the cosmos, if you've ever gone a clear night and you look out and you realize those are all stars and those stars are all surrounded by planets. And there's literally hundreds of billions of them. The Drake equation, you can calculate what probable sentient life. And I've been an amateur astronomer since I've been a kid and I've never crazy enough. I've never seen anything remarkable.

1:42:51I've seen some stuff that could have been ball lightning and some satellite passes that weren't registered online. You could actually check to see if there's going to be like an aridium flare or something like that. And maybe that was a satellite pass, maybe not. But I've never seen in my personal life. Never seen anything weird. And it's funny, you mentioned the Fermi paradox and it's like, well, where are they? Okay, well, you know, if you're sentient life, you're certainly going to have sophisticated cover concealment and deception techniques. It goes back to like what Jacques Velay's work is where, you know, the phenomenon presenting itself in different ways.

1:43:30But also, I live in the mountains of Colorado, right? So there is a mountain lion den about 10 miles from my house in Colorado, literally. You know, I am, there are lower predatory sentience. I'm higher predatory sentience. And I'm using this as a device or an analogy for NHI and us. Well, I don't, on a day to day basis, I don't care what a mountain lion is doing. I may hike in that area to explore, but day to day, I'm afraid of it. And I don't care and think about what humans might be, unfortunately, to some of these higher sentience where this monkey has a nuke. Holy shit, keep them in the cage.

1:44:14We don't want to go anywhere near them. And so people think that there would be some kind of open contact with some higher sentience that is either visiting Earth or from another dimension or whatever the origin is. But they probably don't care. They're probably neutral at best and maybe actually fearful of us in some sense. Or we're the progeny of, you know, personal opinion, progeny of some experiments and the, it's almost like living in the matrix, but it's not like an actual simulation. It's like we want the simulation to go. We don't want to intercede because we want to see what, you know, homo sapien sapien 2 .0 is going to do after the great flood or something like that, right?

1:44:57Yeah, that's one of the more fascinating ideas is that we're some sort of a product of genetic engineering. I honestly would not be surprised. I don't know that to be true, but we're so different than everything else is here, so different, so beyond different. I mean, there's not another primate that is even reasonably close. I mean, if there's speculation amongst primatologists and there's not even speculation, they believe that chimpanzees in particular have entered into the Stone Age. So they're at the beginning of the Stone Age. They're using tools, you know, and this is obviously some learn behavior.

1:45:39Like there's some footage of orangutans using spears to hunt fish with. Oh, interesting. Have you ever seen that? No, not. It's cool, shit. There's a orangutan that's hanging on a branch over a river or a body water and stabbing at fish with spear, which is incredible. I mean, they're using tools. I mean, we know they use tools to extract, you know, termites and the like, look at that. Oh, that's crazy. How crazy is that? I mean, he's clearly hunting. I mean, he's going fishing in Borneo. I mean, that is, you know, at the very least a distant cousin of us, some intelligent primate that is to figure out how to use tools.

1:46:28How long would it take an orangutan to become a human being? How many millions of years are we talking about? It seems to be that process has started. Interesting. But why are we so fucking different than ever? Yeah, like are we a product of Darwinian evolution or what is it punctuated equilibrium as obviously another theory? And I'm not anthropologist by any means, you know, I watched some Netflix episodes. Yeah, me too. A lot of you too. But yeah, we seem to be oddly advanced. Advanced and we seem to dispossess other skills. I mean, he goes back to like the Stargate program, right? You know, with the declassified by Clinton and sensibly canceled, I guess, in 96.

1:47:10You know, where you had people trained and remote viewing. And like, there was feedback loops to confirm what they saw was real. And you know, either satellite imagery or human sources where they sketched out a room of where there's hostages. And they got a hostage out and they're like, and this is a real story actually. And they're like, did you have a source in that room? How do you know where all the corridors were and everything? I was like, no, actually, Pat Price remote viewed you. And he's like, what the fuck? And so there's something going on there. And that's like Gary Nolan, you know, has studied a lot of this stuff.

1:47:44Very famously, he's pointed out the caught ate botanum in the brain, right? So this horseshoe shaped thing in the middle of your brain. That if he's done MRIs and cascans, and I hope I'm not butchering his work, Gary might, you know, slap me later, but it lights up with people who have those kind of skills. They have like an overactive caught a botanum in the brain. And it's like, okay, well, is it a transceiver of some sort? I'm guessing that's the case. Is it an emerging property of human beings as we evolve? Exactly. And we're seeing just a few human beings that have this stuff. And then if it is a transceiver, where's the information?

1:48:23Is it in a higher spatial dimension? Or how are they extracting? How are they able to basically be non -locality, right? They're able to like, project themselves somehow their consciousness to a... And this is a declassified example from Stargate, a Russian missile base. Sketch the crane and know where the silos are, what the status is. You know, satellite comes over, takes a picture, and it's exactly the way they sketched it. How'd they do that? Like, it's certainly real because there is a feedback loop. Now, there's a lot of charlatans in the psychic space and all that, but like, at least that government program, enough talk to, you know, how put off and people who actually ran that program at SRI for the CIA, then DIA in the Army.

1:49:12And that seems to be... And the men who's staring at goats, right? The George Clooney movies, the famous movie based on the Stargate program. Seems to be legit as far as we can measure from a feedback perspective. What was the explanation for the discontinuation of that program? Oh, gosh, I'm not a scholar on that. That something Russell Targ or how put off or one of those guys could explain if it was just like a cut up in the bureaucracy or what? I don't remember. Yeah. Yeah, so the idea of that being an emergent property of human beings as we evolve has always been fascinating to me because there's certainly something that goes on with human communication other than we make sounds that represent objects and physical things and that the other person interprets those sounds and understands it.

1:50:07There's communication between human beings that's... is really slow. Like if you were able to consciously communicate, you know, aka, you know, the Hokie term, like telepathy, right? And it's funny because that's what a lot of people expoused that have had, you know, alleged contacts, right? A lot of the people that Dr. John Mack at Harvard studied over the years where they felt like they were getting hit with like a QR code. It was like instant knowledge or they heard like somebody speaking to them nonverbally in some way that they couldn't even conceptualize through, you know, acoustic communication or talk, if you will.

1:50:51And it's the same thing like book Proof of Heaven by Dr. Eben Alexander MD. I remember reading it when I was in Afghanistan and I was like, this is a crazy experience. This medical doctor has necrotizing fasciitis so the brain is a near -death experience. And he gets this like crazy, like the feelings of love, other stuff. It's a really interesting book. It's like a scientific take on a doctor's own near -death experience. But when he came back and somehow the fasciitis didn't eat away his brain and he was cognitively normal, he tried to write down what information or facts of the universe he learned during his NDE.

1:51:31And he couldn't even put it in English. It was like crazy. He didn't know how to translate it into our language. There was no like adjectives if you were adverbs, etc. That could describe the knowledge that he knew like natively when he had that near -death experience. It's a really fascinating book. And he talks about the disease he had and his physiological condition at the time. Really interesting. What was he able to discern from that? Like what was the overall message? Yeah, it was like this like the, you know, there's the message of love, which is not as positive. But it was like this interconnectedness.

1:52:07Everybody is kind of connected in a way that they don't really realize. I mean, you think about, this is really trippy. A lot of thoughts with people who are smarter than me. I like to talk to them about this kind of stuff where, if you're say, you know, higher -dimensional sentience, right, the act of creation, so act of creation for 3D beings is having a baby, right? It's producing another three -dimensional object. Well, if you're in five -dimensional space, or even as four -dimensional physical space, what if act of creation is creating other conscious realities and other universes? And the act of creation is creating the universe where you, me, Jamie, whatever, we might be connected to the same, I'll call it universal consciousness, or a higher -dimensional sentient life force or life form.

1:53:07I know that sounds like really out there, but when you think about it, there's a lot of other theologies out there that basically expels that. I have a very good friend of mine whose PhD level kind of higher up in the Mormon church, and basically the Mormon theology is kind of like that. The Mormon say you were once with God or like God, but then you were sent down to like a lower plane of existence, and that's literally what I'm talking about right now, but just in a secular sense. So maybe you were all created beings from, and this doesn't like hurt Christian theology, whatever, it's actually kind of enforcing the fact there's a creator and we're literally created in the image of a creator literally, and that's kind of what life really is.

1:53:52It's like, think about it's like a weird 3D plus time temporal sensory experience for a higher -dimensional sentience. You're here to experience time in this weird linear fashion and to experience yourself divorced from yourself to gain knowledge and to report back is maybe what life is, and that's just kind of my own personal theology as a summation of just... During COVID, I was really bored. And that's what I was looking at. Well, I extrapolate that to the creation of AI, and I think if you think about human beings as something that creates things, I think ultimately we create a new life. Exactly.

1:54:38What if higher sentience is creating some kind of artificial intelligence, call it like a commander data from Star Trek Next Gen, right? Not even really, it's made in the image of the creator in some sense, but it's not even, and that's what might get sent into these long endurance missions. And of course, people are like, well, why would they come here so far, to crash, etc., or are they crashing on purpose? Do you know that for a fact, or are they crashing by accident? And what if they're like von Neumann replicating probes, right? You can google that, but what if they're just throw away, which von Neumann probes are just like throw away spacecraft?

1:55:21Like, yeah, they're just... We send it out, we don't really care what the mission success is, or they're seeding us, or as Jacques Vallet says, it's like, you know, here's the key, can you unlock the cage kind of thing, right? Yeah. And it seems that it would be a long... I mean, if you think about biological evolution, so long lengthy process, and if ultimately that led us to the creation of a technology that's far superior in terms of its capabilities of understanding and thinking, that seems to be what's happening, and that's one of the reasons why so many people are concerned about the term artificial intelligence is a very strange term, because it's not artificial.

1:56:02It's intelligence. It's silicon -based at a carbon -based, right? Yeah, it's just... It doesn't have blood and tissue and cells, but it has something that's superior, but also it's something that's much more scalable, right? We have a very obvious biological limitation in terms of evolution. You know, if you look at evolution, and we turn it back to the orangutans that are fishing, they're obviously learning new things, and those new properties, these things, we assume will be encoded in their genetics and then passing their children. Do you have children? No, I have three dogs. We want the fluffy dad.

1:56:39The problem is dogs don't learn from what they do, but one of the most bizarre things about children is that they have properties that are clearly... It's hard to say, right? Because my children obviously have the example of my wife and myself, and they obviously see a lot of how we live our life, and discipline, and hard work, and creativity, and all those things, but there's also... They seem to have gifts that are... They seem to be clearly genetic, and artistic gifts that just seem extraordinary, that are unusual, that I had when I was younger, that I was an illustrator, I have a young daughter that's just extraordinarily good at art.

1:57:26Really? You used to illustrate? Yeah. That's what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a comic book illustrator. Oh, interesting, interesting. But then I have this other daughter that's super gifted athletically. She can learn things really quickly. It's extraordinary, and it's weird, and also this drive that she has. I had a drive from poverty, and from a lot of stuff that was wrong with my childhood, that seemed to be, I had this need to prove myself. She doesn't have any of those problems, but she also has this insane drive. It's weird. It's a weird discipline. It's extraordinary. That seems to be very different than most kids.

1:58:09And I just think that's an emerging genetic problem. I think there's something encoded in whatever you are as a human, that as you replicate, and as you have children, they have that. They have some of that. Yeah. And I think that is this process, this biological evolutionary process with humans. But there's so much chaos. There's so much, I mean, you could breed with a dumb person. You could find a hot dumb person, and have a baby with them. Now your kid's fucked. And then we see that. Obviously, some people are just born with brains and just don't work that well. I'm sure you've met some dull -minded people, and you try to talk to them about things, and there's no one there.

1:58:52You're right. Okay, good luck. Good luck with whatever children you have, and whatever, what are they going to have? Well, the word genetic. Yeah, we're genetically encoding artificial intelligence now. I think that's where you're going. Yeah, what are we going with it? Yeah. These biological limitations that we have, it's very clear that we're essentially dealing with a model T as opposed to a Tesla, which is just insanely superior to these ancient vehicles. Yeah. We create technology. I've always said this, if you looked at the human race, if you were some sort of an outside observer, and you stumbled upon this thing that occupies this planet, this apex predator of this planet, you would say, what is this thing doing?

1:59:34What's making technology? All the other things that it does. It does all these other things, but what are these things generally motivate? What do they move towards? They move towards the advancement of technology and innovation. That there's a constant aspect of human beings. If you trace this back to the earliest civilizations, to what we have today, things constantly improve unless something goes horribly wrong. Unless there's some sort of a natural disaster or some sort of, you know, genocide, if something doesn't happen to these creatures, what do they do? They consistently make better things.

2:00:11Well, that, if you extrapolate, if you follow that to its natural progression, well, what is that going to get to? Well, once they've invented computers, and once they've invented devices, and once they've invented things that enhance their personal understanding of the world around them, which we already have now with phones. We already have with the internet. We already have with our ability to communicate with each other. The newest, latest Android phones that are coming out will translate natively on your phone in real time in conversation. So you could be speaking Portuguese to me. I would hear it in English on a phone call, which is fucking wild.

2:00:47It's crazy. That's like universal translator. Yes, literally, literally, literally. Well, that is a real thing now. Without having to use Google Translate, it's native to the latest Android operating system. You could, Autumn, if you just sit down and said, well, where's that going? Well, it's going to something way more sophisticated and way more capable than we are, biologically, with our limitations. Our monkey bodies, we are the ancestors or the people that emerged from that distant cousin that orangutan that's using a stick to hunt fish. We're going in this direction. What would be the most logical way we would completely accelerate that?

2:01:33We create something that does what we do, but does it weigh better? Yeah, it's almost like the permanently harbor or consciousness eventually, right? That kind of makes sense. It doesn't make sense. There's a sort of understanding of that that leads to this fear of our demise, that everyone, you know, Elon's openly discussed this. Sam Altman and I were talking about it. What open AI is doing? What chat GPT -4 versus chat GPT -5, which is going to be insanely superior? Well, what is chat GPT -15 going to do? You know, is that going to be the president of the world? You know, like, are we going to bypass government and just say, you know, it's obvious like, this administration is incredibly corrupt and flawed and influenced by the military industrial complex.

2:02:18It's not good for the world. It's not good for the environment. We need something that is far superior that doesn't have all these motivations. What would that be? That would be an artificial intelligent creator that we, or a creation rather, that we use the government life. Yeah. I mean, that sounds nuts, but I think that's probably a better solution than humans with all of our fucking flaws and issues and greed and envy and all the things that we have. That would be a better version of it. But what are we saying then? Are we saying that we're, we're, we're absolutely like empathy into it though, you know?

2:02:54It's probably not, probably not, which is terrifying. But we will become obsolete or we will merge. And if we merge, it will completely change what we are. And I think that's very likely what's going to take place. I think the initial stages will be some sort of emerging with technology. And then from that merging, it will essentially realize, well, why are we even fucking around? This new thing is so superior. And it doesn't have all the pitfalls. It doesn't have all the problems. It's not short -sighted. It's not going to drain the ocean of fish so that we can make sushi. It's going to do something that's going to be far more aware of all of the different effects of each individual act and how we affect everything around us and what is net positive and what is net negative and how to avoid all these things.

2:03:50I really firmly believe that we are this biological caterpillar that is making it cocoon to create the electronic butterfly. And we don't even know what we're doing while we're doing it. We're just doing it. And I think materialism has also baked into that. One of the main problems with human beings in terms of the ridiculousness of our actions were so materialistic. People are constantly wanting to get the newest, latest, greatest thing. What's the motivation behind that, other than social status? Well, the motivation is that that's what fuels innovation. If we all just stop right now, it said, hey, you know what?

2:04:28iPhone 15 is pretty fucking dope. We don't need to make new iPhones. Let's just keep fixing those and just like exist the way we are right now and let's clean up the air and let's clean up the ocean. Let's clean up the sea and clean up the rivers and clean up the forest. It's like, what does this fix the earth? And then, no, we don't do that. I want iPhone 16. You know, when is the iPhone going to be able to communicate completely just with satellites? We don't have to worry about cell phones. Well, it's almost like a drug addiction, right? They did studies where people receiving and text messages is the dopamine rush, too.

2:04:57So it's almost like an artificial drug addiction you're fueling because you want the more responsive tech, more integrating with your, make easier so you can get your fix quicker and more efficiently or something like that. I don't know. And why? I mean, why would fucking staring at a stupid cell phone give you a dopamine rush? Well, it does. It does out of data. I'm not a biologist. And you get addicted to your goddamn phones. And then, why would it be that we would innovate and create things like Instagram and TikTok that are insanely addictive to the point where you look down and you've spent three hours staring at nothing, nonsense.

2:05:39Like, what, what, why is that? Well, that ensures a continual use of this device until it lures you into this ultimate integration. Well, it's right. Well, there's people at Meta, I guess, now, or Facebook, you know, where they actually have a whole team of scientists on how to make their apps more addictive, right? So demons. Yeah. Fucking demons. Yeah. I don't use social media. I have never tweeted in my life, really? That's amazing. I mean, I have, like, I use Facebook back in the day when I first came out when I was going to college. But I, yeah, I don't want to be Instagram. I've never tweeted in my life.

2:06:15I don't intend to because you don't want to get sucked into that mind virus, which is like people responding you. You have to feel like you have to respond back. I don't even touch it. Well, I'm very aware of those traps. So I don't, I don't do that. Yeah. I don't, I used to. But many years ago, I stopped interacting with people because I just realized, like, overall, it's negative. Yeah. Like, there's positive aspects to it. It's great for people that like you and their fans. It's great to, that you, you're an actual human that you interact, occasionally a common on a post. Like, that's really awesome.

2:06:46And congratulations. That kind of stuff. But then I get the fuck out of there. And I don't read any responses. And I've found that that's the very best way to mitigate all the negative aspects of social media. But then you're also dealing with algorithms. You're dealing with things that recognize what makes you more likely to engage. And so those things are constantly showing you the things that you engage. And, you know, it's not necessarily even positive. It's just, it's just whatever you engage with. Yeah. That's what's coming your way. Whether it could be cool stuff. Like, maybe you're just like really into muscle cars and it shows you a lot of muscle cars.

2:07:19Or it could be like murder. Like, I see a lot of murder on Instagram. Yeah. Fuckin' crazy. Yeah, I'm a car guy. So like, my feed is like, Oh, do you ever think about this mod for your Ford Bronco? Those lights look nice. Yeah. Why are that shit up next week? Yeah. I get those too. Yeah. It's bad. Yeah. I have a problem with that. I have a car problem. Yeah. My wife doesn't allow me to have the good stuff anymore. So I have to, you know, keep it under a certain price. Oh, that's good. That's good. I'm more actually interested in old stuff than I am in new stuff. Are you like, like, rat rod stuff, right?

2:07:52Well, I like muscle cars. Like, this is very specifically 1960s muscle cars. Those are my favorite because what they are to me is it's a toy that you could drive. Yeah. It's like a ride that gives me immense pleasure to just drive around and it's really fun. I don't even have to go fast. It's just going around in a 1970s chivalge just driving it. It's just, it's hard to describe for someone who has never experienced it. But it's just, it's just so engaging and it's like you're on this drug. Yeah. It's like, blah, blah, blah. It's like everything you feel all of it and you're engaging all of these senses.

2:08:32It's a very tactile, very mechanical. Yeah. Yeah, I totally understand that. I mean, the only kind of old cars I like are like a black Lincoln, Lincoln Continental Suicide Warriors from the Matrix. I've ever seen that when I was a teen when the Matrix came out. I'm like, that car is better. Yeah. It's like, totally. I want to have whatever Morpheus drove. There are. Yeah. There's essentially art. It's, it's, it's, it's functional art. Like you could, it's a piece of art that you could actually drive around in. Yeah. And it gives you this very bizarre sensation. But the point is that, like, that's not most people.

2:09:05Most people want the newest, latest, greatest thing. And there's a motivation to get the newest, latest, greatest thing that I think if you just follow that up to its logical conclusion, it's going to create life. It's going to create, I mean, how many films have been made about this? You know, X Machina and all these different films. That's right. That's what we're going to do. We're going to do, I mean, there's no way we're not going to do that. It's, it's, if I had a bet on one thing, if the human race doesn't get wiped out by a meteor or a nuclear war, we're going to fucking do that. We're going to make a life form.

2:09:43100%. And it's going to be almost instantaneously able to figure out all the flaws in its own personal programming and make a much better version of itself. If it's sentient. Yeah. If it has the ability to make decisions. Well, I think we're close. I mean, I think I saw some stuff. There's like an open AI fiasco going on right now. There's rumor that they might have cracked artificial general intelligence, right? AGI. Oh, Jesus. That's frightening. I mean, there's like, was it Sam Altman, I think we're talking about. I think there's like a board of open AI. There's some shuffle. I was just reading.

2:10:12And they just removed him. What happened right back? Well, they removed him. But then apparently the shareholders, like, what the fuck are you doing? And there was so much outrage that they're trying to bring him back instantly. But Elon had a very good point. Like, what was the motivation behind that? And when you think about the implications for humanity as a whole, because this is such an emerging technology that's so overwhelmingly powerful, what happened? Like, what's going on? Like, I think this is one of those things where, like, we need to know, like, what was the motivation behind your decision?

2:10:46And if it was that he was holding back information about the actual creation of artificial general intelligence, that it's already happened. Yeah. And that he's like hesitant. Because he's a little cagey in how he talks about stuff. When I was talking to him about, you could tell, like, he's like a little bit, like, he kind of knows that he is at the forefront of this technology that worst -case scenario replaces us. Yeah. And, you know, going back to, is a program within any kind of empathy, et cetera, depending on if it handles critical. I guess the thing I saw in the government, because I did a lot of cyber stuff in my career, is, as AI gets more advanced, you, you know, you create, say, offensive cyber tools, that literally have a mind of their own.

2:11:41And if, say, theoretically, you release that on some target, and you might not be able to touch that target again, say, it's a one -time, whoop, you put it in there. Well, how do you control it? It's almost like SkyNet and the Terminator hates that analogy. But, like, that was my fear when I was working at certain agencies, working on offensive cyber tools. I'm like, oh, my God, this is not good. And then, of course, with cyber right, it said, the attribution, actor attribution is the biggest thing. How do you know it was, you know, hypothetically, Russia that used the cyber weapon to attack you, it could have been another actor masquerading as that foreign power, using tactics, techniques, procedures, IP proxy operations, the hide where it was coming from.

2:12:25Right. So it's like, you have non -kinetic fires that can potentially create mutually assured destruction, because you could take out critical infrastructure, blow up the power grid, et cetera, no radiation, but potentially no attribution or, you know, confuse the attributes and such that you don't even know who to go to war with. It's a guy scary to me. It is scary. Yeah. It's already happening with social media. Yeah. I mean, think about how many troll farms there are on social media that are just stirring up discontent. Yeah. I mean, it's an active program that we know that Russia uses that is trying to undermine democracy and try to keep people fighting with each other.

2:13:08And it's been very effective. I mean, if you look at social media, it's just fucking chaos. It's just people yelling at you, particularly Twitter or X. You know, that's in Facebook. It's like a lot of what's going on. One of the studies showed that out of the top 20 Christian sites that are on Facebook, 19 of them are run by Russian troll farms. So if we know that that on like relatively rudimentary scale, if you look at the impact of social media versus the impact of artificial intelligence, they're already doing that. They're already hiding who's responsible and what's the goal and how to manipulate consciousness and how to manipulate influence and how people think about things and what the public opinion on things are.

2:13:54It's already very effective. You would all imagine that a creation of artificial intelligence would radically accelerate that. 100%. Then I remember the deep fake stuff was a real problem for my old community because we're like, holy shit, you could really fake some stuff and you got to develop algorithms to make sure you can analyze, oh, hey, that is fake. Because you've seen some of the deep fakes where it's like Obama or Arnold Schwarzenegger. Yes. The Tom Cruise guy. Holy shit. Holy shit. That is crazy. Like you're going to be able to bring actors from the dead back. At this point. You're going to have like Carrie Grant, you know, do an musical or whatever.

2:14:32Whatever. Well, Bruce Willis, who has some sort of a degenerate, that's a generative neurological condition, sold his likeness for the ability to make commercials and all sorts of other things. Like he's essentially saying he's fading unfortunately. And now he will give this thing, which is this property, which is Bruce Willis, this famous person, and they will be able to create versions of him, starring in films. Oh, and certainly if you train an AI model just like Chad GPT, you could actually get almost like what they would normally say, what their knowledge. 100%. And it's almost like having a permanent historian too.

2:15:14You could like, you know, if you want to talk to Clint Eastwood about his films in the 60s, after Clint Eastwood, you know, passes, you know, may live forever. But like, that would be, it'd be crazy. It would be really interesting. I mean, he might actually be able to give you advice. He might be your personal advisor. I know. That would be cool. I mean, that's probably one of the things that's going to come out of this. But when we think about empathy, we also think about just human beings and the way we communicate and interact with each other. Empathy is very important. And also compassion and forgiveness.

2:15:46All these things are very important qualities because we recognize that we are very flawed. But when you create something that is not flawed, then the need for empathy, the need for all these things that we attach to human emotions and human reward systems, they will no longer be a significant issue because you're going to be dealing with something that operates on a higher plane. It might be the answer to all that ails us, which is so terrifying for us because we recognize that what we derive, the joy that we derive from love, from companionship, from friendship, from community, it's like a key component to life on Earth for us.

2:16:26But it's also because we recognize that without that, we are the Mongols. Without that, we're Nazi Germany. Without that, you know, we're Hamas. We're whatever the fuck we are that we recognize as being like evil or dangerous or horrible about humans. When we think about the worst case scenario for human beings, we always think about things like the Holocaust. We think about what is the worst acts that human beings are capable of with our current programming and our biological flaws? What are the worst things we can do? To terrible, awful things. Well, if we don't have those problems, if we no longer have envy, we no longer have greed, we no longer have evil, we no longer have any of those properties.

2:17:09They don't exist anymore. We just have this new form of consciousness that's far superior. That's an interesting parallel because you have, you know, you're no longer maybe apex sentience if you have artificial intelligence, you know, governing certain things. And I think that's also kind of this psychological issue with this UAP issue where we might not be the apex predator. We have, we may be that mountain lion. And we're going to have to be comfortable knowing that we're going to be vulnerable. There's people with far superior that may have malevolent intentions, maybe not, I don't know. And almost be humbled the fact that like, sorry, we're not the smartest of God's creation.

2:17:56And that might be really hard for a lot of people to process. And I think that's probably certainly, I would imagine one of the deliberations they must have done years ago, we're like, we can't disclose because, you know, people are not going to feel comfortable in that worldview. 100 % and they're not. And then I wonder if these things that we're experiencing are the natural progression of what happens when you do seed life on planet or you do accelerate biological life. You do have some sort of a genetic intervention where you take this thing that it has emerging intelligence and you accelerate it and that thing will in turn with all of its desire for innovation and creativity and also all of its desire to control resources and have power and have influence that it will eventually lead to the creation of what we're seeing.

2:18:53That these things are the next stage of this process and that maybe we're dealing with one form of that next stage but there's another stage that's a million years more advanced than that that's far superior that doesn't even have a biological limitation in terms of physical space that it exists completely in some other undetectable realm that is no longer, no longer thinks about biological limitations of life and death and communication. It exists completely in some other space that that's what these things are. And then I always wonder when there's a crash or when there's a body or when there's this and that and people say, well, if they're so advanced, why are they crashing?

2:19:38Well, hold on, what version are we looking at? We're not saying there's one thing that's visiting us. If there's one thing that's visiting us and we know where this one thing is, we could say, oh, well, that thing, it deals with a completely different solar system that's known as vulnerable, it doesn't have asteroid clouds, it doesn't have all these different things where it's like, it doesn't have a planet that has super volcanoes, maybe life evolved in a more stable environment and it allowed it to get to a far greater technological level but not the ultimate. Yeah, we might be testing the extent of their adaptability and like I said, are they crashing by accident, mission failure or on purpose?

2:20:18Right. So, and then of course with the far distances and everything, I mean, if they're traveling here through some kind of space -time metric engineering construct, you know, the distances are not as vast as you think, right? It could be going through some kind of, you know, traversable wormhole or something like that where it's like a walk down the street for them. It's not, you know, a thousand light years. We'll just think about communication. Just our communication used to be, you had to get in front of someone and you had to talk to them. So, you had to know their language, you had either nonverbal or verbal communication, you had to figure out a way to say things to them.

2:20:53Yeah. That's no longer the case. Obviously with this new Android operating system, it translates, but also the fact that you could have a fucking facetime call with someone in Japan right now and you instantaneously can communicate back and forth, which is insane. That's a vast distance, but for us, it's like stupid. It's like, yeah. Easy. Vast distance and instantaneous. I mean, I was just in Scotland and I was facetiming my daughter back home. Yeah. Fucking crazy. You're nine hours by plane and you're having instantaneous communication, which is wild shit. But that's just, that's fucking, that's like pong.

2:21:35You know, that's Morse code. That's like, it's very primitive in terms of, what if you physically can be in these places instantaneous? Yeah. And why would we assume that that's not eventually going to be on the menu? Yeah. It's just like the conventional propulsion stuff. We're not using an Elon Musk starship to get here. Right. We're doing something else. Can we talk to someone from the 1800s and you said, you're going to go to Nevada, Jesus Christ. You know how far that is on a wagon? You know? That's months, man. But no, you fly to Vegas. It's two hours. Yeah. It's fucking easy. You know, like we know that now.

2:22:10So why would we assume that there's a limitation to that advancement? I don't think so. Yeah. And of course, friend of mine, Eric Weinstein certainly expels us. We don't even have the right theoretical frameworks right now. Right. You know, he has his own geometric unity theory. Yeah. He's way smarter than that. He's too smart. But he's confusing. Yeah. He starts talking. He's like, if he calls me, I'm like, you got to call me in the morning after my 24 ounce monster energy drink, or I can't even keep up, like he's on another level. He has some unique theories himself about where all this stuff is coming from.

2:22:49And it's all very, very, very interesting and intriguing. But also makes sense. All of it makes sense, including being visited. You know, I had this conversation with Neil deGrasse Tyson. You're like, why would they be interested in us? I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? We're super interested. Neil, I mean, obviously he's a fine science communicator kind of the success and the successor of kind of the Carl Sagan kind of thing. I think Carl Sagan was a little bit more up in mind. Yeah. I like Carl better. I'm more of a fan. I wish he was still alive. I love to smoke weed in that guy.

2:23:23He was really in the weed. Oh, really? Yeah, really, really into it. I remember my aunt gave me cosmos by Carl Sagan when I was in middle school. And it was that book was from the 80s. But that book tripped me out. And I was like, I want to study science. And I read, it was brief history of time by Stephen Hawking. And I read those two books when I was like an eighth grade. And I was like, this is trippy. I want to study astronomy. This is insane. But I ultimately use kind of my technical background to be a spook for the government. But I still observe I have a big telescope and I live like super dark skies in Colorado.

2:23:58I still have that boyhood fascination of the cosmos. Now ironically, I found out something else that kind of confirms that the cosmos is not lifeless. And God paints with a broad brush as like the Vatican has six bowels a couple years ago when they said this is okay with their theology. I have a theory that the universe itself is God. That's like what I was talking about with the multi -dimensional creator creating universes. I think we have a very limited idea of when we say God, when God created the heavens and they're like, right, but what are we saying? I think it's the universe itself. I think it's one thing and that this one thing, it seeks to create these things that continually push the envelope and maybe God's themselves eventually.

2:24:50I think if you extrapolate from our ability versus the ability of an amoeba and you continue to move that along, what does that do? Well, it's going to be able to create universes. There's already been like theoretical papers that have been written about the creation of other things like black holes, other things like a universe. What is involved in the creation of a universe? What is involved in the Big Bang? Can that be replicated? Well, not now, but if AI becomes sentient and AI eventually makes far greater versions of itself, if it keeps doing that, what are the limits of its potential? It creates the matrix.

2:25:33It literally creates a simulated environment that's indisternable. You can't tell the difference between that and regular life. Well, maybe because there is no difference. Maybe that is. I mean, that's the theory of simulation theory. Simulation theory, yeah, familiar. That is a possibility because the universe seems like a little too perfect. It's a little strange, very created to me. So just like we're in the Goldilocks zone, perfect temperature, like it's a real big bang itself. What happened? Something smaller than the head of a pin for no known reason becomes everything. Yeah. Okay. And what's the universe expanding into?

2:26:18It's like a quantum foam or whatever the latest theory is that's like beyond me. And then it perhaps just retracts back down to that infinitely small thing. And then expands again. Yeah. And this is an endless cycle. And that we're just so limited because of our biological limitations or our life and death is such a small little tiny blip. It's so minuscule in terms of just the overall known life of the universe. And then you have the James Webb telescope that's, you know, there's people that question the actual length of time that occurred between the big bang and now that maybe it might be far longer.

2:26:57And there's people like Brian Keating to say that's not correct. That's not correct. It's just a lack of understanding of what we understand currently about the creation of galaxies. Yeah. Because I mean, obviously the length of the age of the universe keeps on getting older and older. And a lot of that's because of the Doppler shift, right? The red shift of the galaxies are accelerating away. You know, we can calculate what the, what their origin point probably was. And how long it took for them to speed up like that, right? And only based on our current understanding, which is obviously at least fairly limited in terms of what its potential is.

2:27:33Well, yeah. Like we still don't quite understand the origin of the moon. The moon is at the right location. The causes solar and lunar eclipses. It's like the right apparent size to block out the sun. It's like super weird. Same thing with like Mars. We're not sure like what happened near where Mars. We just had some probable life on it. Either our protoplanet hit it, or there was some kind of impact that vaporized stuff. And like who knows? Who knows? And this is just this little tiny neighborhood that we're looking at. It's like we are in our backyard looking for evidence of like life in Africa.

2:28:11You know, I mean, like you're not going to figure it out here. There's so there's just we're just looking at it. It's such a small scale in terms of what we could potentially discover or potentially observe. Yeah. I often wonder, you know, when we're seeing, especially with the idea of UAPs, UFO crafts, if we're seeing a version of what we will become or something like us becomes, if given enough time. Well, there's like a Dr. Mike Masters at Montana State. He literally postulates, you know, he says time travelers, we could debate time travel. But like he thinks it might be like a advanced form of Homo sapien is what we're seeing coming back.

2:28:54Yeah. Like a breakaway civilization and we're coming back to see an older version of ourself that was left on Earth or something like that. Well, the way we would visit like North Sentinel Island and visit those people that are trapped on that island that are. Yeah. Uncontacted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then a lot of, you know, there's also like cargo cult religions and stuff. You know, the South Pacific and World War II, they worshiped the P -51 and stuff like they thought those were UFOs. But really, they were just us, you know. Yeah. And I think we were probably alien to them. Oh, 100 % comes.

2:29:25Yeah. I mean, just look at how Cortez looked to the people that, you know, had no idea that people could ride horses. Like, what the fuck is going on? These guys are riding horses. Yeah. Like, these are gods. These white guys coming in. What the heck? They come on a ship in the ocean and they ride horses. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. It's all based on our limited understanding. And for someone, whether it's the federal government or whether it's military contractors, for someone to have key elements that could give us a better understanding of this whole picture, it's really inexcusable to not relay that to all of humanity.

2:30:09So this is too much information to be secret. It's too important. If it is real, it's too important for someone to have access to just because they have power and money and influence. Yeah. It seems insane. I mean, that's the whole primer for what I did. I mean, I think I'm a pretty more an ethical person. I just cannot live with myself if I didn't try to make a difference. Even though it was very uncomfortable, personal privacy and professional and personal health was at risk. It also seems like the public understanding and appreciation of these things, particularly after the 2017 article on New York Times has changed.

2:30:50There's been a shift. Whereas before, if you would talk about UFOs or the idea of extraterrestrial life, you are automatically lumped into this group of people that believe in Bigfoot. You know, it's like you're in the Loch Ness monster. You're kind of a loon who likes fringe things because you've probably got problems in your own life. You're not addressing. And so you just tracked it. Yeah. A gambler or something like that. You're just like distracting yourself with this craziness in order to ignore the reality of existence itself, which is so complicated and difficult to manage. And then I think that if we had a better understanding of the overall scale of the potential of life in the universe based on what we know, like physical evidence, undeniable physical evidence that shows us that we're not alone, that would be a massive change in just the overall shift of consciousness on Earth.

2:31:45If we could understand that these territorial disputes that we have, which are almost always over resources or over land or over religions and ideologies, if we could understand that these are nonsense in the vast scope of the universe itself. And this is the, was that effect that the people that get into the space they should have in astronauts? Oh, the overview effect. Yeah. Well, William Schattener had that when he went up in the Blue Origin thing. I'm sure. I'm sure everybody has it. I mean, I'm sure it's just like you go like, oh my god, like what are we doing? And that's how I felt. I mean, like after I found all this stuff, I could have continued my career, you know, made Lieutenant Colonel here this winter, made senior executive service in a year or two, did national security stuff.

2:32:34But I'm like sitting in my office and I'm like, there's better things for me to care about than Russian troop movements. Like we're not alone. Right. This is insane. Like I have to like blow the whistle on this. This is insane. Because certainly the people who we talk to are not lying. And the documents I meticulously went through, they were not forgeries. They were not deception material. So it's just like I have to do something. I'm sure you've seen those freedom of information act disclosure papers from the CIA, from God, it was like the 1950s where they're detailing all the various forms of life and that we know are currently that currently exist.

2:33:18And you remember that Jamie, we pulled up that document. Do you think you can find it? Jamie will find it. But I feel like 1950s something where they were discussing these things. Interesting. Yeah, I'm not sure which ones you're talking about. I have to see them. So it's pretty weird stuff because like if they knew about this in the 1950s, like how did they know? Well, there was like CIA docs about consciousness and like weird, remote viewing stuff. I mean, besides the Stargate program that were released in the FOIA reading room on CIA's website too that are pretty trippy. We're like, wow, CIA is looking into some really interesting stuff.

2:33:52I mean, they're a hardcore intel agency. What's going on there? But it makes sense that they would kind of have to find out if that's bullshit or not. Like you can't ignore that if you're really doing your job. If your job is intelligence, like, okay, like let's look at this. It's an aspect of the phenomenon because it's like a reach out from the crash retrieval program. Like, hey, I need you to look into some weird stuff because it might be the key unlock for something that we got in a warehouse. Yeah. So as it stands right now, what's the future for this stuff? What's the future for these disclosures and what are the bottlenecks?

2:34:32Well, I mean, certainly from the governmental process, you know, as long as the house doesn't kill the Schumer amendment. And I'm, you know, that's why I'm discussing it here with you because they don't pass it. It's going to be the greatest setback to humankind in US history, literally. So the presidential panel gets and panelled about 90 days or so after the passage of the bill. So by, by Christmas, as long as it doesn't get killed, we'll be in the National Defense Authorization Act. Panel will be formed, say February, March. Then they have a 300 day process to develop a initial plan for the president.

2:35:13And I don't know if Chuck Schumer and his staff are being kind of crafty or whatever, but the 300 days, if you actually do it out, it's like the election. So, so I don't know if they want to make it an election issue, which certainly if this act doesn't pass, I think it needs to be an election issue because the senior executive needs to rule on this if Congress can't get their shit together, be quite honest. And we have a plan out the 2030 where this stuff starts getting rolled out, knock on wood, perfect storm, things could get delayed. But then in parallel, and that's kind of why I helped found the sole foundation with Gary Nolan, Dr.

2:35:51Peter Skatefish, who's an anthropologist as well, is we wanted to figure out the stem outreach, we wanted to figure out the public policy, national policy to advise the US and its allies on this issue. You know, and we're happy. Like I said, I'm not here to slap the government in its entirety and monitor everybody, like I think there needs to be a truth and reconciliation process. But I think our foundation, we want to be like, okay, well, bring us in as a think tank, if, you know, based on my experience and experience of my colleagues, like you have an issue with X, well, let's figure out how to roll this out and how to, you know, incentivize the national science foundation to look in this.

2:36:31Make this like, you know, it's dual use, right? You might develop a unique scientific process that actually works well with nanobiology or something like that, but it also has dual use with UAP. So there's parallel tracks, I mean, there's public discoveries, there's like the Galileo project with Avilo, right, that they're trying to, on their own, collect techno signatures, which is, I applaud that. I mean, obviously the government knows a lot about that, but we don't want to obviously rely on the US government to do all the work for us and also to be honest. So I think having a parallel track and you know, Galileo project, so foundation, Ryan Graves has his own foundation as well for pilots and people who've seen unique things to provide that data to people.

2:37:21So I think you got to have those dual tracks and, you know, hopefully we can create a tsunami event where the US government is allies and maybe our adversaries. But really, if the US government doesn't get their house in order here, I mean, you could have uncontrolled disclosure events such that either maybe the non -human intelligence is like, yeah, let's do it. Or what if one of our adversaries decides to disclose and they become the Messiah figure on this and we lose sovereignty or national supremacy and that regard from an open and honest civil society perspective. So I, but I think the governments were getting close, I think, as long as closer than we've ever been before, just the fact that they brought you in to have these conversations.

2:38:10Yeah, I know I'm still advising the US government on this and I'm trying to carefully message this, put all the broad things on the table. And I'm not trying to be coy and not trying to be conceal anything, but it's like there's real national security and collateral damage with just releasing this willy nilly. And I'm just trying to get the government to get a plan together here and just be open and honest with the people of the world really. And there's still the bottleneck with these military contractors that allegedly have access to these things. Yeah, and like to those guys and I know some of them and the individuals that hold the keys, like this is a boon, like this is don't look at it like you're going to lose money.

2:38:55This is a recruiting opportunity. Yes, you're going to have to let other people in the cookie jar. That's how a fair and free society works and they should be able to compete for work. And because that was one of the main, I talked to some individuals that were in an informal session for a previous administration on should we disclose or not for a certain former president. And really insightful what they told me in one of the biggest impasses to disclosure wasn't the ontological shock from a socio economic or theological perspective. It was well, there's some white collar crime. We violated the federal acquisition regulations.

2:39:30We so sourced this work to some big companies for decades. Contractors are going to litigate this to the Supreme Court saying they lost billions of projected income because they didn't get the bid on the work. And it's going to be this like liability disaster for the US government. And the problem with that is is like, I understand that, but like that's why you need to have a truth and reconciliation process. It's almost like the truth and reconciliation commission and post apartheid South Africa where people who committed like murder came in and was like, this is what happened. Here you go. And you know, they don't get convicted of those crimes.

2:40:07And I'm not, I mean, people who've committed murder as it relates to the subject, okay, we should probably hold them accountable. But for some of this stuff, there needs to be a process where we kind of mitigate some of those unfortunate legal issues. But that was one of the main issues, a certain group for a reasonably recent administration came up with and advised that president, hey, look, there's going to be a lot of Supreme Court stuff. Let's not be that makes that guy. So it's like that's the barrier. That's the reason. Come on. Well, it's ridiculous. It makes sense though that they would think that way because I do believe that lawsuits would emerge from something like that.

2:40:47Oh, certainly. And it's, and also it's like the government admitting that we can't protect that citizenry, you know, you know, these non -human intelligence, you know, want to do something to you. Sorry, we don't let encounter measures to that. You know, it's like this, you know, there's a social contract between the citizens and the government. We can protect you, etc. And like, in this case, it's like it's an enigma. But I think this is almost like, you remember like after 9 -11? I was in high school and 9 -11 happened. And, you know, people were afraid of dirty bombs, terrorists. We didn't know what was going to happen next.

2:41:19We lived in fear, but like, you know, we banded together in the presence of fear and apprehension and unknowing what the world was going to be. And we made it through it. Now, I mean, that's a course analogy to this. But people just have to think in that mindset, like it's going to be a little scary. It's not going to be like, kumbaya. Let's move the shit to the masonian and check it out. It's going to be this, you know, awkward and things we're going to have to address sociologically, I guess. Are you optimistic about how all this lays out? I am. I mean, it's kind of like when I was testifying in the public hearing, oddly bipartisan in a good way.

2:42:00I had AOC and Matt Gaetz, like agreeing on something and they were like smiling at each other. That's crazy. It's crazy. You know, I'm like, look, there's AOC, there's Matt Gaetz, there's Timbershot. I mean, there's like people Garcia, like people that wouldn't see eye to eye on most subjects. Because they're such a human issue. Because they want to know the truth, too. And I don't think the leaders in Congress want to be told that they're second -class citizens. I mean, a lot of presidents weren't briefed everything. I think some presidents knew a lot more than others, and I have a pretty good beat on that.

2:42:30And it's like, wait, the chief executive that also forms foreign policy, you don't tell them about a, ostensibly a foreign element. So how do they, as chief of state, how do they form foreign policy when you don't fully brief them on a foreign element? It's like classifying the existence of Russia. Right. Right. So you're actually non -constitutional by not allowing our commander -in -chief all information sometimes. And I don't know what Harry Reid talked to Joe Biden. I mean, it was certainly the substance that I mentioned here. And I hope that Joe Biden has been briefed on the program, so to speak.

2:43:11At least I'm giving him an oral unclassified briefing right now. I guess if he hasn't been, and I'm happy to talk to Jake Sullivan or Avril Haynes, and Avril Haynes, if she's not briefed, like she's supposed to be briefed all intelligence in the country. It's 50 U .S. code section 3024. Your director now, National Intelligence has allowed everything from all federal agencies that's intel -related. Well, ma 'am, if you don't know what I'm talking about, we have a problem, because you're not being briefed. By C .I. director and some other agencies. Well, listen, David, I really appreciate what you've done.

2:43:50I think you've done a great service to humanity just by taking a stand and communicating these ideas and letting people know how much of this is real. And you know, you've opened up a world of discourse that probably would not have existed if you hadn't done that. Thanks. Yeah, I mean, this is not easy. I'm sure. So I appreciate it. Thank you very much for being here, and good luck in the future. Thank you. All right, bye everybody.