#2107 - Billy Walters

26:42So let's say, you know, receivers going down the field and he didn't have any money within 20 yards of him. And he gets thrown a perfect pass, he just drops it. Okay, well he was unlucky. He should have had that pass. On the other hand, let's say he's going down the field and we had a pass like that in the playoffs when San Francisco was playing Detroit. They threw a ball and had a helmet ricocheted and it ended up in a real -long completion and a touchdown. Well that was lucky. Okay, so when we look at the There's plays that happen in the NFL when you look at box scores. As far as working at certain or misleading, okay, when you look at the total amount of yards, everybody kind of looks at the same thing.

27:37You look at the time position. So you have to go over each individual play and deduct all the lucky shit. Yeah, and then we have player participation. We know who played in every play. So you've got to keep up on all this. So, to give you an example, Joe, Pittsburgh. Okay, TJ Watts out. Okay, he isn't playing. Well, if you look at Pittsburgh's performance with him in line up and him out of line up, it's unbelievable that one guy could have that much effect on a team. So if you're looking at offensive performance against Pittsburgh with TJ Watts out, you're not looking, you know, you're not looking at what Pittsburgh's defense really is.

28:24So you got to make an adjustment when you look at that and you got to put that into your priority. When I wrote the book, it took me six months to do this one section. We wrote what we call the Master Class. Okay. And I wrote what we call bedding strategy. I wrote that for the 99 .9 % of people who bet sports. Who, and we got a lot of new sports bettors today, that they have no chance. I wrote that for them, okay? And I put the basics in there. I put basic betting strategy in there, which that's probably as important to them or more important to handicapping is. I put all the charts in there that tells them exactly what each half point is worth.

29:05I put charts in there that tells them exactly how a money line compares to a point spread. line on the games too. Here's a money line equivalent. If you can get a better deal, take it. If you can't take the other. I put stuff in there, basic stuff, because none of that stuff is out there. Now, guys don't have any idea if they're buying a half a point with the fair prices to pay. And all these points, they have a different value. As an example, if you're buying a game on or off of three, say from two and a half to three, and the NFL I failed a three and a half to three. That's worth 22 additional cents.

29:40It's not worth 23, but it's worth 22. If you can do it for 20, buy 21, buy, if you feel like it's gonna be a low scoring game and you can buy for 22, or what a buy. But if it's 23, you're better off taking a two and a half, but people don't know that, Joe. Okay, what's a value of two? Well, the value of two is much less than this three. The value of two is only worth six cents, where three is worth twenty -three. The different numbers have different values. So I put those charts in there for the guy that I pointed out to. I also put another section in there. It's, we'll call it kind of the advanced section.

30:21This episode is brought to you by Robin Hood Gold. With Robin Hood Gold, you can now enjoy the VIP treatment receiving 3 % IRA match on retirement contributions. The privileges of the very privilege are no longer exclusive. With Robinhood Gold, your annual IRA contributions are boosted by 3%, plus you also get 4 % APY on your cash in non -retirement accounts. That's over 8x the national savings average. The perks of the high net worth are now available for any net worth. The new gold standard is here with Robinhood Gold to receive your 3 % boost on annual IRA contributions sign up at robinhood .com slash gold investing involves risk rate subject to change 3 % match requires robin hood gold at $5 a month for one year from first match must keep funds in IRA for five years go to robin hood dot com slash boost over 8x the national All Average Saving Account Interest Rate Claim is based on data from the FDIC as of November 18, 2024.

31:33Robinhood Financial LLC member SIPC Gold Membership is offered by Robinhood Gold LLC. This episode is brought to you by Visible. Is your wireless full of stuff you didn't sign up for, don't need, or don't understand? Visible gives you everything you want from wireless and nothing you don't. No confusing plans, no hidden fees, no nonsense. With visible, you just get unlimited everything. Unlimited data, talk, text, and hotspot, all powered by Verizon's 5G network. Plus, they're an all digital wireless service so you can easily switch within a matter of minutes from your phone, either in their app or online.

32:17Ready to switch? Visible has an offer for you. The Joe Rogan Experience listeners. Join by March 24th and new members can get the Visible Plus Plan for just $30 per month for 25 months. That's Visible's best plan with premium data for $15 off each month for 25 months. Get Visible's fastest network now with even more savings. Switch at Visible .com slash Rogan with the promo code Rogan for this offer from Visible. Didn't think wireless could be so transparent? So, visible? Well, now you know. Switch today at visible .com slash Rogan terms apply. See visible .com for network management details. And that section, I tried to write in such a manner to where I felt like, you know, people could understand it.

33:12And that's the guy who are the lady who wants to become a serious handicapper. And I explained in there exactly 100 % you'll exactly how I do everything. Okay? This book was written at the end of the NFL season, not this year but last year, it came out in August. Everything that I know about sports betting and handicapping is in that book. I will not have sold that information ten years ago for $20 million. And I never had any intention of ever writing this book and putting that in there. But I'm 77. It's my legacy. I see all these new people out there are betting sports. And they're doing states now where it's legal.

33:58I'm proud of that. I'm glad that sports has come around to that, but also I still have... There's a lot of things I'm apprehensive about also. But anyway, so I wrote this. That was one of the reasons I wrote the book. But in those two sections, if you want to be bellywalters and you want to be a handicapped, I don't care what sport it is. I use the NFL as a model, but this model is the same model for every sport. Whether it be your baton on golf or your baton on the NASCAR or your baton on soccer or baseball, it's the same principle. That's the way they all work. So I put that in there and then for people who are betting any type of sport, but especially the NFL or college football.

34:43I put all those charts in there to explain to people. Because right now I don't care what sites you go up on Joe. A lot of these new places, the reason they're making the money they're making is if you were to pull sports betters out there today, everyone thinks making a bet on a sporting event, your land 11 to 10. That's the premise that we've all been taught that you're laying 11 to 10. A lot of these bets today, in matter of fact, almost not a lot of them, all of them. These, we'll call them, you know, the teasers, the parlays, those bets, some of those bets, a guy's laying $1 .50, and he doesn't even know it.

35:28Because there's no requirement to disclose the odds you're laying, so they're not going to tell you. But like these endgame parlayes and you're doing these three and 14 parlayes and you're doing these teasers A lot of these places are charging a dollar fifty to a dollar. You got no chance of winning. You got zero chance of winning I couldn't win. I wouldn't even think about playing them. But the average person who's playing them they don't know that So because right now there's no requirement to disclose that to the customer and And we all want about a small amount of money, one large amount of money, right Joe?

36:04Yeah. Okay, well, you got a lot of people out there they're making these bets. And they're land $1 .40, $1 .50, and they don't know it. When you look at these public trading companies, you know, it's right after they're in a public. You know, when they report their earnings, they're, you know, they're doing very well, but they all refer to these parliaths and teasers. That's where they're making the majority of their money. They're not making a majority of their money on a straight best worth people are like 11 to 10. They're making only proposition bets. Well, what I'm getting from you is that to be a successful sports gambler requires an insane amount of dedication and research and understanding and that you've got to be on it all the time.

36:47And most people are just not that sophisticated when it comes to these things. If they're betting using an app or something like that, betting online, they're just doing for fun, they think they can win, they got a feeling, they want to bet their team, they want to make the game more exciting. And so those people are basically like very under, they're very under research, they don't have like the full grasp of understanding of the complexities of sports gambling. Because it's a lot more complex than I ever thought. When I was going over your stuff, I was like, like, oh my goodness, like this involves so much time, so much time and read.

37:24This is not a simple thing. It's like, oh, I fall sports. I think Kansas City's gonna win. It's not, it's complicated, very, very complicated. And to win at a level that you want at over your career and the numbers, like what is the biggest bet you ever placed? I bet $4 .5 million on New Orleans to beat the International Coach in a Super Bowl. That's the biggest bet I ever played. Did you win? I didn't, I wanted, I got lucky and I wanted. You got lucky on that one? Well, yeah, I mean, anytime you win, I mean, I feel like I'm lucky. Yeah, I mean, Joe, the world's made up of a lot of different kind of people as we both know.

38:01And say, but no, I feel like anytime I win a bet, I got lucky, yeah, I mean, because there's, you know, I will win a bet. And the reason I had such a big bet is, what I do, Joe, is I make a line on the game myself. my prediction of what I feel like the differential should be. Independent of what the extra. Completely independent. I don't even look at her when I make my life. Really? No. That's how I level shit. Well, that's all they, that's all. I'm doing the same thing they're doing. Right. I mean, believe me, the principles that I'm following and making my life are the same principles that the handicapper is making.

38:37But it's, it's, it's, it's kind of like making a cake, you know. One guy might put a little bit more flour in than the other guy does. and so that's how we end up with different, you know, lines, different numbers. So I make a line on each and every outcome of the sports that I'm involved with. And you bettin' this on the individual players, their overall career, what age they are, how they've been playing this season, who the coaches, all the different factors, whether or not there's in player disputes in between play, like there's a lot of things to take into consideration. I, again, I put it all in the book and you're right, there's a lot of different factors that go into that.

39:18Some are important others, but there's a lot of factors. And what happens is the larger the differential between the number they make and my opinion, the larger better I make. There has to be a minimum of a certain amount of separation or I won't make up that. But the larger the differences between my opinion and the opinion, the larger bet I make. So I just give you a rough example. Let's say the NFL and let's say I would have to have a minimum of say a point and a half differential from the line they make from the line I make. A point and a half two points. Well that would, I would bet one unit, okay?

40:03That would be the smallest bet I would make. But for each half point, if I made the line on the game six and they had an eight, I would bet one unit. If they made it eight and a half, I would bet two units. They made it nine, I would bet three units. They made it nine and a half, I would bet four units, so I made it ten, I would bet five units. Well the New Orleans game you asked me about, which I couldn't believe is a Super Bowl game. And this type of year we never get this kind of differential. But I had like a seven point differential between the line I made and the line they made. They made in an apple seven and I thought the game should be pick them.

40:43And when I saw the line I couldn't believe it. I went back. I said well maybe I haven't made a mistake here. Went back, read it, read it, and I'll pick them. So that's how I ended up with such a large bet. When you go through some of that, how much time are we talking? Like if you're placing a $4 million bet on a super role game, how much time are you researching? Well, but that time of the year, I mean all of our research is done. I mean, it's this last game here. Okay, the only changes you're going to make from the last games that these two teams played are in the Super Bowl is, okay, are there any players injured that didn't, which you have to account for?

41:19And, you know, clearly, if they're playing on a different surface or something, maybe then, you know, then the teams normally do. It's very small. I mean, the second the games over, we can have the line on the next game within six hours. It's not a problem or less. I mean, listen involves, you know, some injury or something that, you know, may take us until we get some more clarity on that. But I'm going to know real close to where I'm at, frankly, as soon as the game's over almost, within an hour or two. Now, there's been some times over the years where referees, specifically in basketball games, have been caught doing things, you know, calling penalties, trying to swing the game in favor of another team, and they get caught for it and busted.

42:08How much do you think that goes on today? Like, how much do you think like referees are bought off, or maybe perhaps they're betting themselves? I don't think that exists at all, Joe. Really and if it does it's very very small and has been right that things have happened in the past and but I but but but you know I'm covered each and everyone else Gambers hmm people betting sports and bookmakers are the ones that made law enforcement aware of these things Because at the end of the day whether you're a casino or whether you're better the integrity of sports is the most important thing in the world Are you a good thing about what's going on today?

42:43There's probably more transparency in betting today than there ever has been. All of the legalized gambling is taking place. They have everyone's account information. They know everything you're doing. And the other thing about betting on sports show, unlike say Wall Street, it has a much, much smaller market than Wall Street. So if you go out and you make a sizeable bet in sports, the line's going to move and and it's impossible to hide it. Okay? Now, there's people such as myself, and I'm not the only one, there's a lot of people in the sports business. If they see a lot on the game move, I have a point of point or whatever, they know who calls that line to move, 99 % of the time, okay?

43:32I give you an example, the Arizona State situation that came up years ago. I don't know if you remember that one or not, it was their basketball team and they were fixing games. And then what happened, there was a bunch of guys that came to Las Vegas and they bet on one of these games. The line moved six or seven points. I bet on the other side of it because, you know, the line I make, and of course I had no idea that they were shaving points. And I lost the bet. Well, they came back to town a little bit later, and they brought six, seven guys, and they were going to all different sports books and they were betting and allow move -six or seven points again.

44:12Lines on games don't move six or seven points. Well the second time I didn't bet because and sure enough they won a game by like 20 again. They came back the third time and by now I'm taping the games I'm looking at the games. They came back the third time and they did the same thing. Well, I called Steve DeSharn, who was the head of gaming control for the gaming control board. He was the law enforcement part of gaming control and told him what was going on. And they dispatched some agents. They tried to get these people to talk to them. They left Las Vegas, went back to Arizona. And then later on, I think one of them got kind of caught up in a drug deal and then it came out.

45:00They were fixing games and There were a couple players that were intentionally thrown off and They were fixing games and that that's how that scandal came out, you know, I guess I was exposed by gamblers Oh, it's by gamblers and then how did you know that something? How did you know it wasn't just luck? Well, I mean Joe look this would be like tracking the elephant to snow I mean, you got guys who know was Everlade Eyes on and they come to Las Vegas and they bet on the game and they move at six or seven points. If you're handicapped or you know anything at all about Benny's sports, if a line moves,

45:40it's in your land a second or third point. You better have a really strong opinion because they move this line for one reason. It's to make it a lot less appealing to the person betting on that team. So when somebody comes to town and they move a line six or seven points, no better in the world is going to do that. In order to do that, they want every sportsbook in town. and they just, you know, they laid, you know, 6, 6, 9, 7, 7, 8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 10. Okay, well, because they were new to betting, okay? They knew they had an edge because of what they were doing, but they didn't know anything about betting.

46:21As a result, you know, they created something that was easy for anyone to see. I saw it again the first time. I didn't know the exact, you know, I didn't know exactly who was doing it. And I bet on the other side, of course, I lost my money. And of course, I came back the second time. I've seen these things before and I didn't bet. And of course, we taped the game, we looked at it. It was pretty easy to see who was doing what they were doing. They came back the third time, did the same thing. Frankly, to give it, I mean, these guys were trying to break in jails, what they were trying to do. Anybody, I mean, they were, anybody would do what they were doing was just stupid.

47:01I mean, anyone could see what they were doing. So the only thing surprised me, it took three games for someone to file and turn them in. And I don't, sportsbooks, I don't think I ever turn them in. I mean, I called the Sharer myself because again, anything that involves integrity of sports, they're affecting my business. If people get to where they don't trust but you know sports, then the limits are gonna go down and it's gonna reduce my ability to be able to bet on sports. Uh, the other one, you know, with the referee, the NFL referee, Gammer's knew about that eight months before he got busted by law enforcement, people quit betting on the games.

47:37Well, sure. I mean, it wasn't like they just suspected that the cost of that. No, I don't know what happened. Any time again, Joe, because the market's so small. Okay, think about the New York Stock Exchange or think about Apple Stock. You could buy $500 million with Apple stock and the price on Apple stock would barely move. On an NBA basketball game, if you were to bet $250 ,000 on an NFL basketball game, it would probably move a point and have two points. So, and again, the people taking the bet, people such as myself and others, if a line moves on a game and it moves like that, and okay, I want to know who better than a game, if it's another handicap or there's an injury out or there's something there that makes sense as to why that game moved, then okay, I understand it.

48:37But if there's some mysterious person that's betting a lot of money on a game that hasn't been doing this for a period of time, and then I'm looking at an outcome of a game that doesn't make sense if I tape it and I see something that's out of the ordinary about the way the games being officiated or some players perform it. This stuff is easy Joe to see. And you're not dealing with, exactly, you're not dealing here with master criminals. You're dealing with people that frankly are very smart and a number of them are very smart to be doing what they're doing and the way they go about it. or even, you know, about, you know, I don't know if you remember the thing years ago with Hot Rod Williams.

49:16I mean, there's the ones, what was that thing? Well, it was an NBA thing also. But all the ones, if you go back and you look at the last five sports deals, whatever they were, smaller, big, every one of them were uncovered like that. And so, you know, I I did an interview on time on 60 minutes in 2011 and I was asked at the end of the interview which I had the most confidence in, betting on sports or investing in stocks. And my answer was I have a lot more confidence in betting on sports. For the reason I pointed out, it's a much smaller market but as far as things being on the up and up I have a lot more confidence than that and I weigh more confidence than that thing I do the other.

50:05Well obviously you know it well. Well I not only know it well but also if I didn't know it well. I know how small the market is. I know how transparent the market is. And if someone goes in to try to battle on sports and you're trying to fix a game, it's going to be so obvious. It's so easy to detect and it's so easy to, and today it's even easier. I'm the good thing about legalized sports betting is it's so transparent. Everybody who has an account, You know, you take all of these young players that haven't, you know, they haven't been, I'll call it school correctly. They haven't been, they haven't, you know, whether it be their teams or whomever, they haven't explained to them, you know, the repercussions about betting on sports if they're a professional athlete.

50:49We've had some here recently that, you know, basically these guys are kids, Joe, they're kids. They don't know any better. And someone should have sat down with them and explained to them the ramifications of what they were doing. maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But we've had a few of them out there now, but you know, you've seen how quick they catch them because it's all transparent. They go ahead and make these bets. It didn't take them any time at all to figure out who they are, if they're a football player or whatever they're doing. And it's been brought to public's attention. So, you know, if it's not easy to catch them, somebody out there making large bets on something, moving the line substantially, and you don't know who this person is, and you're looking at, and they do this more than one time or two times and you're seeing an outcome of a game that doesn't make sense It didn't go to take long to figure this out Now when you do a situation like garlic peat rose.

51:41Uh -huh. That was That was a fascinating situation because this was at the time where gambling was illegal Unless you're in Vegas. It's stiff and you find out So he might be betting on the team that he's coaching and he also might also be betting against his team. I never heard anyone ever say that Pete Rose bet against his team. I'm not saying it didn't happen but I've never heard that out. I know he was accused of it. Right? Is that okay? You don't think so? No, I don't think so. I thought someone was saying. John Dowd I think actually investigated this for the baseball. So he was always betting for his team?

52:23I think he did bet on his team, but I don't like he ever bet against his team. No, I've never heard that. What was the problem with him betting against his team or betting for his team, rather? That seems like that just would be a guy who has confidence in his team. Well, personally, I don't see a problem with it, but the people who are running baseball or whatever the sport is, I haven't thought it really out probably. If I were on their side of it and really thought through all of the different pluses and minuses, I may have a different opinion. Right off the shoulder, I really don't see a problem in anybody on his team or anyone but in on their team, although others do.

53:06And so and I'm trying to think of a good reason is to why it would be a problem in betting on his team. I really haven't thought about What was he ever accused? I don't think I'm looking at the ESPN outside the line store. There's a team document. There's no evidence that Rose was a player manager in 86 bet against his team. No. They show a vivid snapshot on how extensive his betting life was. That's he did make. So it could have been just unfair accusations designed to taint his reputation even for the moment. No, I think he did bet on his team. No, against. Yeah, well, if anyone, if anyone accused him of betting against his team, I think they're wrong because I never heard that and I don't even think when they report that Mr.

53:49Dowd issued on behalf of the of Major League Baseball I don't think there was ever any allegations in there that that he bettered his team but it seems kind of crazy right wasn't he he's removed from the Hall of Fame well he never was in the Hall of Fame but he's consideration he's he's never been voted in the Hall of Fame for that reason 2022 he's bringing up a point where there's a manager or a player on the rock is it's an endorsement deal with Maxim Bett and he said like what he did was happening now no one would ever think anything. Yeah well I don't know about that either because there was a there was a young college player who's now I think a pro who's betting on on his team and I don't I don't think the NFL or I don't think first of all I don't I don't think they want you to bet on sports period, but I don't think I've even betted on your own team.

54:49I don't think they want you to bet on your own team. Are you aware of the UFC betting scandal? No, sure, I'm not. So the UFC, you didn't used to be rules in terms of, like I could bet if I wanted to, anybody could bet on fights. And what was going on was there was one trainer, and the allegations were that this trainer was involved in an online betting group and he was letting these people in this online betting group know that one of the people that he was involved with was injured and pretty significant injury. This guy winds up going out and fighting, loses in the first round, hurts his knee, like throws a kick, blows a knee out, apparently his knee was already hurt.

55:30Then they find out that this guy had been doing this for quite a while, or allegedly had been doing this for quite a while and so then they pass this law now or pass a rule with the UFC that no one can gamble. But I would imagine that fighting is probably the most difficult thing to get right in terms of to figure out a line. Is that, did you do any gambling on boxing or MMA fights? I have not any gambling on MMA fights. I had fighters in the past. I had three boxers and in Las Vegas and we trained at Johnny Taco's gym. Okay, great gym. And one of my best friends in the world, Billy Baxter, he had fighters at the same time.

56:14He had better fighters than I did, record wise. He had Roger Mayweather, who became... Black Mamba. Yeah, that's exactly right. And Jesse Reed was our trainer and making prices on boxing, I didn't think it was difficult at all. MMA. Back to what you were talking about there again. The NFL, you know, you tell them about transparency. I mean, if a player is injured, they have to report that. The team doesn't leave that, so the public knows that. And they have regular reporting requirements. And then, like before the NFL games every Sunday. and I were to happen before the games, they have to come out with a file report.

57:00So, you know, for whatever reason, at boxing I know when I had fighters, there wasn't a requirement to disclose that. You know, famously, many packers I was injured going into the Floyd Mayweather fight. Yes, that's what I remember. And a lot of people were furious about that, because a lot of money exchanged hands during that fight. Yes it did, yes it did. So, again, not knowing as much as I would like to know before I make a comment on something my only thinking is is that you know a lot more about MMA fighting than I'll ever know. You and my friend Kevin Howley, would it make any sense to make that a requirement to disclose injuries?

57:50It would. Yeah, if you're dealing with gambling, it would. Unfortunately, though, then you would give your fighter the other fighter, the opponent, a massive advantage. If you know this guy's got a knee injury, you're going to target that knee. If you know this guy's got a hand injury, you're going to know he can't punch. Right. Yeah. There's certain things that would change every aspect of your strategy for a fight if you found out that a fighter was injured. Especially if there's something that would prevent them from grappling, you would know they probably didn't do any grappling in camp and so you'd go with a grappling heavy strategy.

58:23Just grab a hold of him quickly. Really force him to wrestle. If you know he's going to blow out knee and he can't really adjust on the feet or shoot for take downs or even defend them well. You would definitely change things. And fighters hide injuries all the time. I mean, a jerk is duplicity when he won against Robert Whitaker. He had a broken foot. And you know, he beat one of the top guys in the world with a broken foot. But, and that's kind of crazy that fighters do that, but that's the type of human being you're dealing with, and they can win that way. Like, it doesn't necessarily, just because you know that a guy's injured doesn't mean that the guy's going to lose.

58:58There's certain guys that they find a way to win no matter what. And I would imagine that that, what I would, the thing that would give me pause is scoring. Judges scoring is horrible. It's the worst part of the sport. It's so bad. It's so bad that maybe 10 to 20 % of fights You'll have one card that's so off You're like what the fuck was that guy watching it happens all the time where as commentators We're just scratching our head like how did he give it to the other guy in what world and I will go back and watch it again And see if I'm being biased I'll watch it with the sound off. I'll just analyze all the positions and all the things that's happening.

59:46It damaged, done, and controlled the octagon. I pushed in the pace. I'll look at the volume. I'll look at the amount of strikes landed. And then I'll be like, how? How the fuck did that guy see it for the other person? It doesn't make any sense. And I always wonder if someone's on the take. I always wonder. Because I know that there was a case in Vegas where there was a woman who had given out very questionable decisions, like multiple questionable decisions. And the last one was so egregious that she kind of just went away. But I've always wondered if those people were on the take. Because Don King famously was a sneaky dude and did a lot of very, you know, very under the radar shit that was probably not good.

1:00:28And I would think that if you have a fighter and that fighter is working for you, you would definitely have relationships at the very least with these judges. So there would be more inclined to score for you. Maybe you take them on a vacation. Maybe you take them to dinner. Maybe you do whatever you can do to get inside the good graces. And then if it's like, eh, this guy or this guy, I'm gonna go with this guy because I like Don King. Or Bob Aaron, he does me well. So I'm gonna lean towards that guy. That would be a real issue with me if I was gambling, particularly on boxing. Back when I counted in, I was betting on boxing before I had fighters.

1:01:08But after I had... When you say you had fighters, what do you mean by that? I had three fighters. You had contracts with them? Yeah. And what is the contract involved? Well, I was a manager. Oh, okay. Yeah, and actually three young men are brought out from Louisville. And that was a connection. My wife and I were both from Kentucky originally. And Billy, I love boxing. I always love fighting when I used to go to all the fights. It's a silver slipper. The, you know, we, it's, you know, just I enjoyed it a lot. And see going to the smaller regional cards. Oh, yeah. Last but not least, I mean, you know, I remember at the Hossie end, which is the mandalay.

1:01:55But this episode is brought to you by Zippercruder. The hiring process is stressful. There are so many different things to consider. and on top of it all, you need to get it done quickly. It's like when you're trying to find a decent contractor for a home renovation project or even a new primary care doctor. You don't want just anyone. You probably want a person who knows their shit and will take your concerns seriously. But also need to find them like yesterday. If you're an employer struggling to find that perfect fit, I've got one word for you, zip recruiter. They work fast to find you great talent.

1:02:30Try it for free at zippercutor .com slash rogan. They're so fast, four out of five employers who post on zippercutor find a quality candidate within the first day. That might be why hiring site employers prefer zippercutor the most based on G2 ratings. They get the work done without wasting your time or money. So relax and let zippercutor speed up your hiring. See for yourself. Just go to zippercruder .com slash rogan to try it right now for free! That's the same price as a genuine smile from a stranger. A picture perfect sunset or a cute dog running up to you and licking your hand. Again, that's zippercruder .com slash rogan.

1:03:12Zippercruder, the smartest way to hire. This episode is brought to you by me undies. When date night comes around, you want to look good for your partner. That's normal. So here's some advice guys. If you want to impress your date, it starts with some nice fitting clothes that complement your body And I'm not just talking about a suit or slacks or a blazer wearing a nice pair of underwear You can go a long way too. Me undies knows how to make an amazing pair of fucking underwear Like their contoured pouch and ball caddy. It helps you look and feel amazing and like all of their other clothing It's made with their signature fabric that's breathable, stretchy and comfortable If that's not your thing, meat undies also has plenty of other options for you to choose from, including loungewear, and everything else comes in a range of sizes, colors, and prints.

1:04:00There's even some fun Valentine's Day prints and styles like electric hearts or love birds. You and your partner can get a matching set to make the night extra special. Try them for yourself. If your first pair of underwear isn't a match made in heaven, it's on meat undies. This Valentine's Day, good things come in big packages at meundies. Score huge site -wide savings at meundies .com slash rogan and enter the code rogan. That's meundies .com slash rogan. Enter promo code rogan for huge site -wide savings. Meundies, comfort from the outside in. Today, that's where the ESPN televised fights, that's where they began in Las Vegas.

1:04:42And I remember how to fight her. He was really good fighter. He'd won the National Golden Clubs like five, six times as an amateur fighter. He'd beat Aaron Prior. His name was Terry Silver. And he was a lightweight and really, really, really good amateur. And I remember in order to get his first fight on television there, we had to agree to So with Bruce Trampler and Bob Ahram, we had to agree to multiple contracts if he won the fight. That's only beginning on the card. That sounds like Bob Ahram moves. But back to what you're talking about those days in the 80s, I mean, you had Duke Durham, Duke Durham, who was Don Kings guy in Las Vegas.

1:05:27And then of course you had Don and you had Bruce Tamp Trampler that was Bob Ahram's guy. And, you know, I mean, you look at the various organizations that did the ratings of the fighters. And you look at some of the fighters, I mean, if they were some of the right guy, I mean, they'd be ranked in, you know, in the top 10. And a lot of couldn't bust a grape. And then you'd have guys that didn't, that weren't signed or hadn't agreed to those contracts, and they couldn't get ready. They couldn't get a fight. So you're right there was a tremendous amount of politics in it and that's the primary reason I got out of it and But I still love boxing.

1:06:12I love fighting out on understanding him and he is nearly as well as you do I can help you out. I'm sure you could and like I said, I have a friend Kevin O 'olee I think you probably know Kevin very well. He's a good friend a guy. Yeah, he is a good guy and he's been covering him in May forever Yes he has and so I'm gonna make it make it my business to learn more about MMA and it's complicated Yeah, I'm sure it is But a guy like you that knows as much as you know about sports you could get into it. I'm sure to enjoy it It's a complicated thing to to watch and pick and pick fights It's a complicated thing to gamble on because I think there's a you have to have an understanding of of a person's physical ability independent of watching them in fights.

1:06:58You have to be able to assess, like I can look at a fighter, like a guy like Ilya Toporia, who just won the World title against Volkanowski. When I would watch him fight and train, even though he was against lesser competition that Volkanowski, I was seeing the speed of his strikes, the accuracy, the defense, how I was seeing this advantage. I was like, man, even though this guy is, he's an underdog, he's fighting the most dominant further weight of all time. I'm like, this guy's got some big advantages. He's just got a big advantage that I see as a fighter, as a person who knows how to fight, and I'm watching the way he moves, I'm like, he moves better.

1:07:39He's more precise, he's more accurate. It's complicated. And then you have to take into account, you know, how many times the guy's been fighting that year, how banged up he is. Because just like quarterbacks on football days, you're going to fight injured. Everybody fights injured. There's always something. There's always a neck thing or a back thing or a hand thing. No fighter fights 100%. Very, very, very rarely, I should say. But the thing that drives me the most crazy is the decisions. Because if I was a gambler and I laid a big bet on Iliottiporia and for some reason it went five rounds and they give it to Volkanowski and it's a terrible decision.

1:08:20There's not a more robbed feeling in the world. That's a dirty, because it's so subjective as opposed to scoring. If you're watching a basketball game, if the Lakers score more, they win. It's real simple. The ball goes in the net more, you win. With fighting, you got three people. Some of them don't know how to fight at all. And they're the ones who are deciding who wins, who doesn't win fights. Well, yeah, back in the 80s, a lot of those controversial decisions in boxing. Oh, yeah. That's another reason that I got out of boxing. Yeah, there's some bad ones even in the 2000s. Many pack down Tim Bradley.

1:09:03That was one of them. It was like, what the fuck? And I think that lady that was talking about was involved in that one as well. There's been quite a few of them. And when someone is an incredibly popular fighter, like a Canelo Alvarez or something like that, where there's so much money invested in this fighter, and there's so much money potentially in future matchups that if they lose, boy, that could switch the amount of money you make by an extraordinary amount. But if they get away with a robbery, just a little bit of a robbery, over six months, a year, two years, people forget. They forget.

1:09:37What do you got to factor that into your handicap? Yeah, you have to factor in possible robberies. Or they're getting the best of it, right? Yeah, that's crazy. You have to factor that in. How would you, like, so when you were gambling on boxing, what's the biggest bet that you ever made on a fight? Oh, I never met any real large personal fights. What's a not large bet for you then? One hackler fought Sugar Ray at Caesars. I think I bet about 200 ,000 on a fight. Who'd you bet on? I bet on a Sugar Ray. Did you really? I think you got lucky. I think I had the one that fight. Well, my man Billy Baxter.

1:10:12He like he like sugar rate quite a bit and there was a guy named Herbie Hoops At the time it was pretty sharp guy and Anyway, but you know the Hagler one is a weird one because he loses that fight and then goes and becomes a superstar in Italy Where's the mob from Billy? Where's the mob from? I mean if I had to guess and Watch that fight when I watch that fight. It's almost like Hagler wasn't trying to take him out It was almost a man. I wish he was alive today and he's one of my all -time favorite fighters I have to say. I grew up in Boston and he was a tough man. He embodied discipline. He was the man and he was probably before Terrence Crawford one of the best switch hitters that's ever played in the game or ever fought.

1:10:57He was incredible. He was so good at being able to switch. South Pole orthodox, he fought equally well from both sides and he confused a shit out of people because of that. That's a great skill. That's something Terence Crawford has so well. Such a good skill. The ability to switch sides. It's just so baffling. And if you've ever sparred before, if you used to spar in Orthodox people, and then you spar in a South Pole, your whole brain has to do all these extra calculations. And if you're not accustomed to sparring, just sparring with South Pole. Forget about fighting them. It screws everything up in your head.

1:11:29You have to readjust. And if you unless you've gone through a whole camp with South Pole, that's one thing that people are very reluctant to do. like say if a fighter is scheduled to fight North -Ox fighter and then two weeks out that guy gets injured and then another guy steps in and takes place you find out this guy's a South Pole like oh shit like it's such a different strategy everything changes with your movement you know you don't want to lead into the power hand so instead of circling to the left now you're circling to the right like there's a lot going on well same thing goes with with the South Pole quarterbacks I would imagine.

1:12:02Yeah, big difference. Oh yeah, balls coming from a totally different angle. Yeah, and the tendencies are different too. There's something also, I'm not a left handed person, but I have a theory about left handed people. I think they just get better at things quicker. I think there's something about left handed people. They see the way everybody's doing everything backwards, and so they have to see the way they do it, and then do it their way, and I think there's some sort of an advantage in that. Okay, well, I hadn't thought that one out yet, but... Some of the best pool players are left -handed.

1:12:32There's a lot of killer left -handed pool players. There's a lot of killer left -handed fighters. I know a lot of people that are left -handed. They just seem to have, there's like an extra thing that they have that orthodox people don't have. I thought about that one, but. You don't take that into consideration when you're ahead and by head, but we'll take a look at it. So what was the biggest fight bet they ever put on? Probably that one, I mean, how much was it? The one that meant the most to me. How much was the hacker fight? Got 100 grand, probably. But the one that absolutely meant the most to me is Terry Selvett, this kid I told you, I got to fight it.

1:13:09We were at the Hossie Ender, which is now Manilae Bay. It was a six -round fight. He was his first six -rounder. And he's fighting some kid out of LA. You know Jimmy Montoya? No. Jimmy Montoya has been training fighters in LA for the Z -Year's. and he's stable back in those days, he had like a hundred and twenty fighters. Okay. And he'll bring guys over whether it be the silver slipper, the show boat, or the house end, and a lot of his fighters are on the card. And he brought over the Hispanic kid and this kid's fighting Terry. And you looked at the guy's record and you know, he, I think he was like maybe one, three, lost two, and he had a draw.

1:13:56And I'm thinking, well, this guy's got like zero chance. So this is back when I'm drinking some, too. So we go to the fight, my wife says, and Billy's working a spit bucket. And fight starts, and I'm betting everybody, I can bet in the crowd. I'm laying five to one, ten to one, twenty to one up. I think I'm just stealing, you know what I mean? I think Terry's probably going to knock him out in the first round. Well, Terry had gotten him a girlfriend in the meantime and so he goes out there and first round he probably had to scout 80 times a guy never laid a club on him. Terry Silver had a really really good lift jab as good as any you've ever seen in your life but he didn't have a lot of power in the ammeter rakes because he won like five nights on Golden Gloves but when he turned pro He really didn't have a real good point.

1:14:49So he came out in a second round, and he drops these gloves and he's shored off. And this kid hit him, and when he hit him, his mouthpiece went out. And then he's got the wailing on his head. And I'm thinking, I'm watching this. I can't believe it. And he knocked him silly, so to speak. Well, Terry's, but he had in the fight. he probably had his enameter probably 50 -60 fights. So he got out of the round. So they come out in the third round and he's still in checking it completely off and the guy goes away on him again and now you know he's bleeding and he's got a gash over one eye. Buzz's coming out.

1:15:30Look, Buzz's coming out of his mouth. So the fourth round comes out. He's still just worrying about what my wife's students said, look you got to stop his fight. So I run down the belly, I said, Billy, I said stop to fight. And I said, by the way, I need to borrow 50 ,000. He looked at me and he said, let's let him go a little longer.

1:15:56So Terry gets out of the round. He comes out in the fifth round and the fight completely turns around. And He starts wearing his other guys head out and he wins the fifth round. I mean, it's not even close. So they come out for the sixth round and this was only a sixth round fight, Joe, but it's one of the best fights I've ever seen in my life. And I mean, they stood toe to toe in the sixth round and they fought and bell rings. Well, I got a draw in it, but it was one of the best fights I've ever seen. It was a sixth round fight and I got a draw. And the reason I got to draw is I had a kid was a real classy fighter and I got to tell you the ending of this story I'm in prison.

1:16:43I'm in Pensacola and I get letters and I got a letter and I hadn't seen Terry Silver Since then when I when I gave up the fighters I gave Terry to somebody I gave Tyrone Morta Billy and I gave Dana Ross to the Billy I'm in prison fast forward or 2018 -19. I wish I'd brought the letter. I'll send you a copy of the letter. And I'll let her some Terry's over. And he said, Billy said, you know, I remember he was talking about the fight. And he said, you know, and he said, you know, I remember you tried to stop the fight. He said, I could not lose that fight for you and Mrs. And he went on to talk about, you know, that and talked about our relationship.

1:17:29And anyway, he sent me this letter. And I mean, I don't have 40 years later, I get this letter in prison for this kid. And it's all about that night, that fight at the Aussie and how he wasn't gonna lose that fight any, and he wasn't gonna lie and lose that fight because of Susan and me. And it was touching. Wow. Dice that bullet, huh? Yeah, don't need to barf for a quick. Yeah, well the bell would have stopped the fight, but the problem was I said I need to bar 50 ,000 He said he has said let's let him go a little longer There is that's hilarious Wow, so what did you wind up going to jail for?

1:18:12What does ale for insider trading the See Joe Well, publicly people know I've been on sports and they know I'm pretty good at that. But I do a lot of other things, Joe. Since the late 80s, I've owned golf courses. I had seven golf courses in Las Vegas, which I built from scratch for them and the other three. But I've owned an operating golf course since the late 80s. I've had golf courses in Chicago and in Mexico, Arizona. but I had seven in Las Vegas. You know when I got out of school, I went into the automobile business. I was in it 16 years, I got out. But I'm in the automobile business too.

1:18:56So I had 22 car dealerships at one time. So to golf courses, car dealerships, that on sports, but I also invest in stocks. I invest my own money. Not someone else's money. And, you know, actually, I probably have a bigger presence with that than I do, but in sports because it's a bigger market, you can bet more. Well, I bought a stock on it for 10 years, and I got involved. There was an SEC investigation. The initial investigation was into myself and Carl Icon, and it involved a stock trade that I did with that that he'd own stock in. and that investigation went three and a half years. It went nowhere because there was nothing there.

1:19:41There was no wrong doing it all. And then there was a stock out owned for 10 years, a stock called Dean Foods. And they'd been involved in a material transaction, they spun off a part of their company. And I owned a large amount of the stock. And the SEC was looking at anyone who bought and sold stock around a certain period of time, and I was one of those people. and it was at the end of the other investigation and because of my notoriety who I was I'd been indicted six times before and I'd gone to court and beat him five times. That started in 1983. So you were already a Mark Mance? Well, yeah.

1:20:26Mark Mance, what has been indicted for?

1:20:34I've been In 1990, in Las Vegas, Nevada, the gaming capital of the world, the FBI took myself and my wife out of our home and handcuffs and my wife and leg arms on her. And we were arrested and we were charged with being a part of a criminal conspiracy conspiring to bet on sports, bet on sports. Now here we are in 2024. Betty and on Sports is legal in the majority of the United States. In 2023 and Las Vegas is a circle hotel, I was inducted into the Sports Gamers Hall of Fame for Betty and on Sports. So in 1990 in Las Vegas, Nevada, I was indicted along with my wife and charged with Betty and on Sports.

1:21:29So yeah, I'd gone to court a number of times. I'd beat him a number of times. Everyone in the indictment was centered around my sports betting. That's what they were centered around, nothing more than the last. But I was a sports better. So was sports betting illegal? No, no. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. Let's talk about a game changer in the world of sleep technology. Eight Sleep and their revolutionary pod for ultra. The pod is a high -tech mattress cover that easily adds to your existing bed and is clinically proven to improve sleep by up to one hour per night. The pod regulates sleep cycles with precision and automatic temperature control for each side of the bed so you and your partner can have your ideal sleep temperature.

1:22:18It also learns your sleep patterns and detect snoring, adjusting the bed's position to stop it, plus it attracts sleep stages, heart rate variability, and respiratory rate without wearable devices. So if you're ready to take your sleep and recovery to the next level, head over to 8sleep .com slash Rogan and use the code Rogan to get $350 off your very own pod for ultra. And you get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it. I have it. I use it. and I love it. Your body will thank you for this investment in better sleep shipping to many countries worldwide. See details at eightsleep .com slash Rogan.

1:23:04That's what it was. No, no, not illegal at all. I was charged with being part of a criminal conspiracy conspiring to bet on sports, betting people in other states. It was ridiculous. I went to court. My wife and I, we were exonerated. So is it because it was legal in Vegas, but not legal in other states. They tried to make it that way, but when we went to court and the facts came out, we were exonerated in all the charges. There was one charge. The vote was 11 to 1 to acquit us and come to find out that one guy voted against us, that hadn't told the truth and his interview to be on a jury. He was a former police officer.

1:23:41And so anyway, they chose not to end it. They dropped the case it was over with. But we exonerated all the charges except the one charge and they were voted 11 to 1 to acquit us on that. And then I was indicted three times after that, the same thing, Betty Nonesports. It was thrown out of court every time. And then, so anyway, but what happens, what I realized through all of this, Joe, is the higher profile you have, the bigger target you become, especially if you're someone who's beat them a number of times over a pair of years, there becomes a vendetta, a year of the guy that everybody wants to bring down.

1:24:19And then I'm involved in New York originally with a guy with Carl Ackon, one of the most successful investors in the history of the world. And that investigation went in the work because there was nothing there. And then this issue came up with Dean Foods and bottom -low was there was a lot of motivation to get me, to indict me. And that's exactly what happened. The four people that were five people involved in my case. Three prosecutors, a supervisor, and the former US attorney. Four of them, as soon as my case was over, within a matter of months. Health press conferences, and their claim to fame was they had sent me to prison.

1:25:00Three of them have gone into private practice today. Their sole business is they represent people with white collar crimes in the Southern District in New York. They bring them back over, and they were the people that they worked with for years, and they cut deals. The fourth one ran for the U .S. Congress in New York. He's now United States Congressman. And the guy who was a former U .S. attorney, he is now working for all of them representing people with white collar crabs. So they went from what they were doing to these very high -paying jobs, making a lot of money. The other fellow is now in politics.

1:25:38He's a congressman from New York. So there's a lot of motivation for people on that side to send half profile people to present. That's kind of how they get to the next round of the letter. So I'm just making, you know, the reason I wrote this book, Joe, is I started, I'll begin to write this book in 2003. Well the guy in Las Vegas, his name was Jack Sheehan, good friend, good writer, good guy. And we worked on it for a while out of sight. I'm not writing any book. Okay. Well, fast forward, 2017. I walked into federal prison in Pensacola, Florida when I was 71 years old, or the five -year sentence, which could have easily been a life sentence.

1:26:25And while I was in prison, my daughter committed suicide. So I had to write this book. I had I wanted to share my childhood that you and I went over a little bit. I want to help people because I don't care who you are, what part you're at in your life. We all have issues that we're dealing with. So I wanted to share my childhood and then I wanted to share the addictions that I had when I was younger. I had an issue with alcohol. I got addicted to body and sports. and then later on in my life as I became more mature and I was able to overcome those things. You know, I got in business. I've been successful with that.

1:27:14And, you know, I've become a fairly successful sports better. So, and then I went to prison, which I had to share that experience because when I went into prison, there was only one positive thing to keep out of that, Joe. I've mentored around two dozen of men. And some of these men have been in prison 20, 25 years. And it really opened my eyes. You know, every time there was a visitation where I was at in prison, I had someone who visited me. Sixty percent of the people in prison never get a visit. But these men that I've mentored. Not a one -on -one to go back to prison, but I spent a lot of one -on -one time with them and a closer they would get to release, you know, the more apprehensive they became.

1:28:06I mean tough guys, you know, I mean tough guys, you know, ripped guys that had been in prison 20, 25 years. They would become very emotional. They didn't want to go back to prison, but they knew they were probably going to come back to prison because they had the only thing they learned in prison was how to become a better criminal. And yeah, they were going to get out. While they were in halfway out, they were going to get a job someplace, making minimum wage. But as soon as that was over, they had to do something to feed their families. And they, you know, they had no job skillset. So when I got out of prison, I knew I had to try to do something about that.

1:28:43Okay. And so I got involved with Harry Reid when I recently got out of prison. Former Senator Fundavada, former majority leader. And I got involved with Harry because clearly Democrats are in power and I wanted to put vocational schools and the federal presence. And I was willing to put up some of my money initially to get it started and unfortunately Senator Reid passed away before we were able to get anything done. Well, a former Sherfin in Las Vegas, Bill Young, he told me, he said, Bill, he said, the best reentry program in the United States, it's in Las Vegas. He said, it's called Hope for Prisoners.

1:29:26I said, I never heard of it. He said, well, when you meet this guy that runs it. So there's a guy that runs it. His name is John Ponder, who's been in prison twice. He started his program in 2012, Joe. There is set ofism rate is only 5%. So being a Larry guy, being a gambler, you know there's a lot of people looking for your money these days. We all know that. But I met with John Ponder and the, became really impressed with him. But the more I learned about him and the program and what he's done, I've got superly impressed. And so my wife got and I got more involved. We made some financial assistance available and they were able to add to some of the things they were doing as far as teaching and stuff.

1:30:18This is an 18 -month program these people are in, by the way. And the first thing they do, almost every of these people have an issue with drugs. The first thing they do is get them off of drugs. Second thing they do, they get them right with their families. You got to be right with your family. and that's where this program works so good. And every month we have a graduation there. The graduation Joe was held at Metropolitan Police Headquarters and downtown Las Vegas. There's usually 50 to 75 police officers there. Come to find out there's 200 police officers and Las Vegas Metro that are mentoring these people now.

1:30:58A typical graduation you've got the mayor there, You've got the district attorney there, you've got a judge there, you've got the head of corrections for Nevada. Sometimes the governor is there, Fees and Town. And usually you got about a thousand people there, friends, and you got a lot of mentors and the last biggest area to come. They come up and they receive their diplomas. And the second that's over, there's a job fair and they all have jobs before they leave. And then in these graduations, they'll invariably always have someone who's been out of the program for a year or two years or five They'll come up and speak and they'll talk about their life and how to change their life.

1:31:37So, the current governor we have, he was a former sheriff that was involved in this program. His name is Jill Lombardo. And so, Jill recognized how important it is for these people to have a job skill set when they come out of prison also. So, we spoke to him and the head of corrections in Nevada and we now are putting vocational schools in Nevada presence. And they're going to be able to get certified to be an electrician, a plumber, air condition repair, truck driver. And when we decided to do this, of course it takes money. There's another family in Las Vegas, the Ingalls Stad family. and so they agreed to put up $2 million.

1:32:24Susan and I agreed to put up $2 million. And the state agreed to put up a million. So the night they made this announcement, I asked, I was asked to come and speak. And I got there and there was another speaker and he was Alice Johnson. Do you know Alice Johnson? No. Alice Johnson is a lady that I was in prison at the time, but President Trump pardoned her. And he pardoned her because her case got brought his attention by Kim Kardashian. And so Alice Johnson got up and spoke and I was blown away with her and I was blown away with her speech. I think she was from Mississippi. I think Arlausian wanted to and she'd gone to prison for being quote a drug mule and if I understood her correctly and I think I did I think her role as a drug mule was she was conveying messages between the guy selling drugs on a guy's supply of drugs and she was strictly on a phone convey a message.

1:33:24She's never touched the drug, never sold her drug. First time offense they give her life in prison was no parole. First time offense. So she was in prison, I think about 22 years and it become a model person in prison. I think she become a minister and she got pardoned. But that was, was that was, that went into either all or most of the prisons in the United States at night. So we followed it up, we went out to Indian Springs State Prison in Nevada. And we walked into the gymnasium, I was there with John Ponder myself, and there's, I don't know, 5, 600, 800 inmates there. And we originally walked in, we started talking to them, you They kind of see, you know, they were kind of disinterested, some were less than that most weren't.

1:34:17But when John got up and he got to talking about what we were going to do, you could see they started to get more interested. And when I got up there, you know, I said, well, you guys are probably trying to figure out what this old graded dooders that I talked to you about today. So I kind of explained to them while I was there what my background was, the fact that I'd been in prison. And what we were going to do with the vocational schools. Well, Joe, when you got finished, you could hear a pen drop. And we started doing Q &A. It seems like the questions went on forever. Finally, the correctional officer said, you know, they have to get back.

1:34:54And we had to end the Q &A. But now we have vocational schools in Nevada, prisons, in, and it's just to me, it's not Not only those men that I remembered that I've mentored, okay, when they go home, a lot of them have families, you know, they got four or five children. Okay, so those children, if that father goes home and he has a job as an electrician, a plumber, an arcanist, and repair, their father is no longer a criminal. Their father is an electrician, he's a plumber. And I think there is a much greater chance that that child will follow in those footsteps and possibly that of crime, a life of crime.

1:35:39So anyway, long story. That's a beautiful thing to be proud of. Well, I am proud of it. But there were a number of reasons I wrote this book. I mean, I see the so -called whatever number you pick out, the 15 million new people that are being sports. And I see the way that sports is being marketed, the way it's being pitched to these people. and I can see, you know, it's almost a sense that a large, large part of them are kind of become addicted. Okay. If I had been pitched on sports the way they're being pitched on sports the day with the phone, I mean, I got addicted without it. I can only imagine what it would have been with it.

1:36:17And then on top of it, there's no law whatsoever now that they have to disclose anything. So people are making bets on sports. They have no idea of what the odds are, they're laying or getting or anything. Yes, there's no disclosure whatsoever. And then on top of that, you know, they don't even understand the basics of sports betting. So I wanted to put that in a book. And by the way, Joe, you didn't ask me this. On a percent of any money, it comes out of this book goes to charity. It goes to opportunity village and lust for us, which is an organization that works with intellectual and childless people.

1:36:53It goes to hope for prisoners and it goes to an organization in Louisville Kentucky called Cedar Lake Lodge, which works with intellectually challenged people. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's really great that you're doing that, man. What really is? This case that they got you on inside of trading, what was the allegation? What did they say that you had done? Well, they said that a guy who was on the board at the time had passed me along non -public information. and I had taken that non -public information and I used it to trade on a stock, take it Vanage, unfair Vanage, illegal Vanage and made money and that was the allegation and that's what I was convicted of and I went to prison.

1:37:37Now I could give you the background and the details of it Joe and I think even as even the life you let I think you'd finally you would find it fairly interesting. I only stalked for 10 years and this fella who was on the board of directors his name was Tom Davis. I had a reason to met this guy in Dallas, Texas in like 2000 and I was trying to raise money. I was trying to buy American golf and national golf properties. He was running Donaldson, Lufkin in in Generette and Dallas at the time, which was an investment bank. And I went there to try to raise the money to buy these entities. And I wasn't, I didn't raise any money through him, but I hit it off with him.

1:38:27I liked to get out a lot. He played golf and we knew some other people. He got a home in La Jolla at the time. And so we became friends. 2002, Donaldson, Lufkin and Generette got sold out. and he started his own private investment firm. And then, you know, he would call us on deals in Las Vegas and we invested in some of the deals he called us on. Some of the deals we didn't invest in. This guy was a very prominent guy in Dallas. He owned part of the Dallas stars, he owned part of the Texas Rangers. He was a member of Preston Trail Country Club. When he was in La Jolla, I played golf with him.

1:39:08I played to remember Guesswood in one time at La Jolla Country Club. I had a lot of respect for this guy. And every time I was around this guy, he was the most buttoned up guy that you could ever imagine. And I didn't realize it at the time, and I don't think most people around him realized it. But I think he ended up with a real issue with alcohol. And it came out in court. It looked like he ended up with some sort of uncontrollable issue I think with women too. And I think he lost all his money gambling. And what happened after he lost all his money gambling, he was on board of directors of a charity in Dallas, and he'd actually embezzled some money from them to pay some of his gambling debts.

1:39:56Clearly, I was totally unaware of any of this, or I don't like anyone, most people, I don't like anyone in Texas even know about it, especially the people to dean foods. Well, what happened is Dean Foods, when I got involved with it early on, they were made up of like three different divisions. They had, we'll call it a regular milk division, which was the majority of their business, majority of their revenue. Then they had an organic division called White Wave, and then they had another division and it primarily sold products to institutions, say like McDonald's and Long Shelf -type products.

1:40:38Well, during the years, people could drink in an autonomous milk, we call it flood milk. And as a result, the flood milk business was in decline. The organic business was growing leaps and bounds, you know, soy milk, oat milk, different types of, those type of different milks. Well, the stock trade traded at a depressed price because of the majority of their revenue came from fluid milk, just regular old milk. But the other parts of their business were that they were growing substantially. And that was really the play with the stock. Now, the federal government, they set the price of rural milk every month.

1:41:25That's publicized. So, that's what the farmer gets for his milk when he sells it to someone who's in the milk business. So, I bought it in this stock and I realized pretty quick that I thought it was like, you know, J &J. I thought it was something that didn't have a lot of volatility to it. Well, I realized there was a lot more volatility to it than I realized because the price of milk, the price of petroleum products because Dean Foods had a huge fleet of trucks for transportation that were all running on diesel fuel, and then the cartons were made out of oil. And there were a lot of things that had had material influence on how they were going to do as a company.

1:42:11Well, in 2010, Dean Foods came out and publicly announced that they were looking at spending off White Waf, the organic division. They hired a company to come in and do an assessment, and came back and said, well, the time of wouldn't right for them to do it, but it was something they would certainly consider in a future if they felt like it was the best interest of the company. In 2000, I sold all of my stock. In 2011, to very end of 2011, about 58 ,000 miners shares of that stock from JP Morgan. The only reason I bought this stock, for me it was a very, very small amount of stock, a very small investment.

1:42:55The only reason I bought this stock was JP Morgan was their lead bank. And I knew if I ever tried to talk to that analyst about Dean Foods and he wasn't available, he was in a blackout period, maybe there was something going on. Because I knew they were going to spend this company off eventually, not only did I know what everyone else knew, it wasn't a matter of if it was just a matter of when. So you fast forward, May of 12th, that month, Dottchett Banky come out with a report and they predicted that white wave was gonna be spun off. Well they had an earnings report that month in May and I had put a limited order in to buy the stock.

1:43:36Do you know what a limited order is? No. Well, it's like making an offer on a house, okay? A limited order on stock, let's say the stock is trading at $10. You call your broker up and you say, okay, Joe, I want to buy so many shares of Dean Food Stock stock, but I'm not paying any more than $10. If it goes past 10, I don't want any. But anything you can buy for 10 or less, I want to buy this number of shares of stock. So I put a limit of ordering that day to buy that stock, and I didn't get it bought. I got half the stock bought because the price had gone up. Well, the next day they reported earnings, and they also announced that they were back considering to spend off white waif stock.

1:44:17stock. Stock went up about a dollar 20 cents. I bought another 750 ,000 shares as a stock and paid the additional dollar 20. I didn't sell the share. That was in May. In June, in Bioneys stock, in July there was a severe drought in the United States. Corn prices went through the ceiling and when corn prices went up, you know, the price of milk is going to go up because the farmers got a feed, he's milked with corn, right? And then on top of that, what happened when the corn prices went way up, the Dean Food Stock price went it went way down. And I had a loss on the stock at that time of, I had a paper loss of, I don't know, $3, $4, $5 million.

1:45:08Well, when they did that, I went back in and I bought another, say, million -have shares in the stock, which was consistent with what I've done with every stock I've ever owned almost. If I buy stock, price goes down. I'm going to buy more of that stock to average a price out, especially if I feel like the stock is really underpaid. And the only reason Dean Food Stock had gone down was because of this drought and the corn prices had gone up. Both of those things were temporary. Drought still last forever, and I knew as soon as a will back up regardless. But on top of that dean foods had announced that they were considering spending off white waif stock.

1:45:46This was the second time publicly that they had done this. Because in 2010 they did it, they did a study. Now this is 2012. So in August when they reported earnings they confirmed we're going to spend off white waif stock. Stock goes up about $4 .5 a share. I didn't sell a share, Jill. About another million shares. I paid an additional $4 .5 for sure. Now from that August until the following February the next year every time Dean Foodstock would go down I would buy more of it. Okay so now we get to February of 2013 and I own five million three hundred thousand shares of stock. Well I wanted to buy a home and Palm Desert so I bought a home at a place called big, big, big, ordinary country club.

1:46:38I sold a million shares of the stock to pay for the house and I kept four million, three hundred thousand shares. Two -week slater Dean Foods reported earnings and the earnings were bad and the stock went down two dollars. That was one of the charges of insider trading. They charged me with it, Joe. They said that I had prior knowledge that the earnings were going to be bad. I avoided a two million dollar loss on the million shares of stock that I sold. But I lost eight point six million them to stock I kept. So does that make sense to you if you're trading on insider trading? Now I would only sold them any shares of it.

1:47:11I mean why wouldn't I sell it all? You know? That was one of the charges. But anyway, fast forward. How did they try to prove that you had insider interest? Well, I'm going to get around to that. I'm a slow storyteller but I'm worried. I like it. But I'm thorough. I had 31 months to think about this in prison, than Joe. So anyway, fast forward to the following August, which was a year after they announced public that they were going to do this. I kept my four million three hundred thousand shares and then the following August, when they finally spun it off, is when I sold my balance and my stock.

1:47:45So they did the investigation and what happens, anytime there's a material transaction with the public and trade company, the SEC, they'll send out a list of people who bought or sold significant amounts of stock to the board of directors and they'll ask them, do you know this person? And when they did, Mr. Davis, he identified me and rightfully saw who I was, what our relationship was. So the SEC, they were doing their investigation. I mean, after the case of New York with Mr. Icon and I blew away, there was nothing there. This Dean Foods thing came up. And I didn't realize it at the time, but Tom Davis had gotten involved in some, you know, some pretty bad things.

1:48:37So the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal, they leaked two stories and all the details in the book about the leaked stories, 100 percent of it. And when they leaked these stories, and one of the stories I put Tom Davis's name in the book. So Tom Davis and his lawyer, a guy named Milstramer, they contacted the SEC and they say, look, we want to come and give a voluntary interview. So they go up, they give a voluntary interview, and they say, look, they denied infatically that they'd ever give them me any insider formation, told them under no circumstances that they ever give me any insight information.

1:49:18Well, the SEC, but more importantly, the FBI continued to investigate Tom Davis. They learned that he had in bezel this money from a better women's charity in Dallas. They learned that he had a fraudulent tax return file because what happened when he took this money out of this charity, when he put the money back in the charity, it creates a, an entry, you know, what's drawing an entry. Well the guy who normally filed the taxes for the charity, he had told him we're gonna have to show this what draw in this entry. He said, oh no no you can't do that. Uh, because he didn't want other people on the board of directors to know what he had done.

1:49:58So he gets someone else to file a return which is fraudulent, he doesn't disclose this. And then, uh, come to find out, uh, he had given inside information to someone else in Dallas, another man there. So they continued to investigate him and I think after he and his lawyer learned that they had him for embezzlement, they had him for tax fraud and they believed they had him for insider trading with this other man there that he had actually given inside information to. Two years after he'd given his interview, he decided that he did want to make a deal. So, his lawyer had represented Mark Cuban in his case in Dallas, when Mark Cuban had an SEC case.

1:50:46In that case, his lawyer had hired a lawyer out of New York, a guy named Chris Clark. And Chris Clark was the lawyer that recently represented President Biden that had to withdraw from the case. If you... I'm sorry, didn't represent President Biden. I'll take that back. He represented President Biden's son. But he had to withdraw himself from the case for some reason sometime back. That's the same Chris Clark. Well anyway, Milschimer had called us Chris Clark and said, look, you know, we gave an interview two years ago, but evidently, things have changed. They felt like they were under a threat of him getting some major jail time because he embellished the money, followed by a false and tax return, and he had given us other guys' side of formation.

1:51:32So Chris Clark, there's another long young lawyer who had just joined their firm and this young lawyer was named Tom Neftalis and he, I think Benjamin Neftalis and he had just worked at Southern District in New York and he'd been gone for a short period of time and he'd actually worked in the, I think worked with the same prosecutors investigating this case. So, Tom Davis and Milchimer, they end up retaining Chris Clark and this Benjamin F. Tullis to represent them. So they go up there and decide they're going to make a deal with the government and return the government. They're not going to, you know, they're not going to push for him to go spend any time in prison.

1:52:20So he, he, do you know what a proffer is? No. Okay. I didn't know what one was either until this case came up. What a proffer is, Joe, if you meet with prosecutors or you meet with the FBI and you decide you're going to tell them something about someone else, that's called a proffer. You're going to tell them everything you know. It has to be truthful. And the reason for a proffer is once you tell them then they'll decide, okay, if you're willing, this is what we're willing to do for you. Well, Davis went to have these proper sessions with the FBI and the prosecutors in pertaining to me. If you were going to have a proper session and you were going to tell someone about someone else, how many proper sessions you think it would take for you to tell someone that story and say let's say the proposition has lasted two hours each two and a half hours each.

1:53:23How long do you think you would tell for you to explain to someone, you know, how long do you think it may take? I don't know. It took him 29 of them. He had 29 prophecies, Joe. 60 hours. To get his to get his story straight about supposedly how he gave me inside information. And in court he said I never asked him for inside information one time he he quote voluntarily gave it to me inside information as if as if I would know what he was giving me was inside information. He and in court he testified he didn't think he was going to do one day in jail. Bottom line was, and bezel from maturity, file a frozen tax return, giving another man insider information.

1:54:13All those things he wasn't going to do one day in jail for any of them. And he was the only witness against me, Joe. Now, my lawyers caught him in a minimum of 25 lives. He had, I mean, he came out in court. I think on one business trip, he called 22 escort services. I mean, they The guy was off the rails. No, the guy that I described to you that I met in 2002, the guy that used to own part of the Dallas Stores in Texas Rangers, and the guy that was just, I'm heat going from that to this. And drugs involved? I don't know, a lot of alcohol's involved, I don't know that. But given idea I was working this guy was, he pleads guilty to a bunch of families.

1:55:04I mean, it wouldn't mean whatever he had to plead guilty to. 100 of them because they told him. He was convinced he wasn't going to do the day in jail. And they were going after you. Oh yeah, yeah. And so anyway, after he does this, even I do how wacky this guy was, after he does this, he comes to Las Vegas and he throws a party at the Winhoe Tells celebrating his deal. He's cut with a government. He lost another 50 ,000 -year gambling. That's how wacked out this guy was. So anyway, so that was the only witness against me, Joe. They had no other witnesses against me. They had 60 days of wiretaps on me.

1:55:34How many of you think they played in court? zero. That's right. The lead FBI agent in the case who was in charge of the entire squad of the White Collar Crime Investigation Unit in New York, his name was David Chavez. When these stories were leaked into New York Times and Wall Street Journal, our lawyers filed a complaint with the court accusing the FBI and the Southern District of leaking this information to the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal. They came back into night and said, this never happened. Said, we were on a fishing expedition. That's what Prite Bajara said. We were on a fishing expedition.

1:56:17But the judge, to their surprise, I think he said something like, well, these cultures, almost identical ones, were made the grand jury. He orders a never -denture of hearing, which completely shocked them because normally the judges are just rubber stamp form up there and they just take their word. You know, we didn't have anything to do. There's no point in having a hearing. Well, this judge, he did. He said, well, we need to have an evidentiary hearing. So a couple days before the hearing, they sent a letter over to the judge. It's a letter that they call it in camera. What that means is it's a private letter that no one else can see.

1:56:58My lawyer's never got a copy of it. But they sent this letter over to this judge. They said, Judge, you know what we did do this. Said, David Chavez, the head of the White Colour Crom unit for the FBI in New York, he's the one who did it. And said, yeah, there were five other FBI agents who were aware of it, who were in the meetings with him, but they really didn't have anything to do with it. It was just him. But he did it, and we want to fess up. But we want you to keep this totally private. But we don't want anyone to know anything about this. It'll hurt our reputation. And we recommend that you hold him a contemporary court.

1:57:35What our lawyers had found out that there was a letter, but they found out we weren't telling us what was in it. So, you know, my lawyers were, you know, they got, they filed a bunch of motions and, for this judge to make this letter public. Well, finally, the judge did make the letter public and the copy of the letters in my book. There were approximately 2 ,000 emails, Joe. They turned over five or six is what they turned over. Those public emails are in my book, too. But I'm going to give you an example of what those emails contain. There's a guy who is a journalist in the New York Times. He's still there.

1:58:18His name is Protus. and if his name is Ben Proto's. And if you look up all the stories he does, it's pretty easy to see, you know, he writes stories predominantly about cases that involve us, Southern District in New York. Well, in the one email that they turned over involved in Ben Proto's, Ben Proto said written a story about our case, and he was forced to do a reduction, our correction. And when he was forced to do the correction, He was upset about this because the story had been given to him by this guy David Chavez. So he calls this Chavez up and he said look. He said the story you gave me.

1:58:57I had to do this reduction and he's he's complaining to the guy The guy says look your own my radar screen now and says so's the New York Times. It's an FBI's in threatening this guy So this guy provokes he calls up this guy's old bell who's a number two in the US Attorney's Office. He's right under Pre -Bahar and he tells him a whole story. He said, you know, I did a story. I had to go into a correction. He said, I call this FBI's and he threatened me. He threatened me and he threatened the New York Times. This guy's old bell. He sends an email out for the rest of the people in the US Attorney's Office or a number of people in the US Attorney's Office.

1:59:36And he tells them, He recants exactly what happened to Sky. Prodice calls him up. That email's in the book too. Okay? So there were five of those emails. There was another email in there where they identified a lady who writes for the Wall Street Journal. Her name is Susan Pollyham. She's still there. She's still writes for them. If you look at stuff she writes, it's very similar to Ben Prodice. They're all counter -government kind of stories. Chavez says he has a relationship with her and about how I was, you know, like my case, if she were to call you up and interview you, things that she learned about people he was investigating, she would pass it along to him too.

2:00:26That's what the emails they turned over. That's in my book also. So what happened is, when these two stories got leaked in the Wall Street Journal in the New York Times at the same, within seconds of each other. Tom Davis's name, one in the first one, my name was in there, Phil Muckleson's name was in there, Carl Icon's name was in there. But they continued to put the leaked stories in there, and then finally they got Davis's name in there, which when his name came in there, he gets Milsharmer goes into Nies at two years later after they found out all these other things. He decides he isn't going to book, he will be a witness for them, and return.

2:01:01He didn't think he's going to do a day in jail and he hires this law Europe there who had worked with them for eight years or prosecutors It still takes him 29 meetings for him to get his story straight. So I go to court. He's the only witness against me Okay, they don't play one wire tap But when I jury went back Joe and by the way the FBI agent Chavez was suspended from the FBI the judge in our case referred his case to the office of public integrity in Washington DC and he recommended he be charged with two families criminal contempt criminal contempt and obstruction of justice you know what happened to Mr.

2:01:42Chevin's he was allowed to retire Joe with pay and he's never been prosecuted for anything so when the jury went back and they convicted me They didn't know that there were 60 days of our attempts. They didn't know that the lead FBI, just for 3 .5 years who had been doing this case, had been thrown out of the FBI and had been described by the judge doing their case. He said he should be charged with two fellows. They didn't know any of that. Now in retrospect, like I said, 31 months and think about this, our case went on for a a little over three weeks. We're in the winter in New York, weather is really bad.

2:02:30They stopped to trial 15, 20 times a jury. They were sleeping and one guy snore and salowed to judge stopped to trial. So they'd already completely lost interest. And in the cases about insider trading, I mean, a lot of people don't understand stock trading, Joe. And they got crossed out of it up there with the lawyer showing them graphs all these type things. And the one guy on the jury had said, he said, the next week he was going to have to leave. He couldn't stay on the jury longer. He's going to go on a trip. So after the prosecution that wrapped her case up, I had to make it decision while I was going to, well, I was going to testify her not.

2:03:09My lawyer said, look, said, nobody can believe this guy Tom Davis. And he said, there's no way they can convict you if they can't believe Tom Davis. And we had 23 witnesses prepared to testify. And we talked about it and all of you said it's strictly your decision. You make, you know, we said we're just telling you we don't think that there's any way they can evict you if you don't testify. So we end up putting five witnesses on. We put on three stock brokers that I did business with, the controller from our company and a pilot who that had flown me. And he was on there for one reason. There was an allegation.

2:03:51I was in Texas at a certain time, and I wasn't. And we proved I wasn't. Anyway, we rested our case. And a big mistake. I should have testified. We should have put the other people all regardless of whether the jury was bored or whether they wasn't, or whether the guy was going to leave or whether he wasn't. And the other thing that was another reason that I got convicted and I go to my grave believing this. Phil Muckleson was supposed to come and testify. He told me you would. Phil Muckleson got involved in this case. It was really another screwy deal. And I wrote about it in a book. And I only wrote about it in a book because there was no way to tell the story unless I explained my relationship with him.

2:04:36But he'd bought stock of this company, too. And when the SEC attempted to interview him, me took the Fifth Amendment. And when I learned he took the Fifth Amendment, I said, why, and the hell are you doing this, tell the truth. I didn't realize it, but he was involved in another investigation, a money laundering investigation, that it'd been going on for a year, that had nothing to do with me. And he was afraid to testify with the SEC because he was concerned they would ask him questions about this money laundering case. Now, he had already given interviews with the FBI, and he didn't fightically deny that I'd ever given them any insight information.

2:05:12How do I know that? I got a copy of the interviews. That's another thing, Joe. If someone does an interview with the FBI and they tell them something that ends up getting you in trouble, or you end up getting indicted for that, you never get to see any of that as part of discovery. But if you tell them something that basically proves a guy's Edison. You get it, and I did. They have to give you a copy of that. It's called Brady Material. Well, I got a copy of the interviews. I know exactly what he told FBI. And the same thing he told me he told them. And well, the prosecutors weren't about to call it because they knew what he was going to say.

2:05:54He told me he would come and testify. And they left a hour. He changed his mind. He says his lawyers told him not to come and testify. Well, these stories that got leaked in the paper early on with him, myself, and Carl Icon, everybody in the world had read these stories about Phil Nicholson, myself, etc. Everybody read that Phil Nicholson had given a million bucks back he made in the stock trade. Well, if you're talking about this case and you see someone who's been a investigator for insider trading, two people, you see one guy gave a million dollars back. There's only two conclusions you can come to.

2:06:32Either he's innocent, he gave the million bucks back, or he bought his way out, or the two. But regardless, it makes the other guy look guilty as hell. The guy who supposedly gave him inside of information because why in the hell would a guy give a million dollars back on a stock trade if he didn't do something wrong or he wouldn't buy his way out? That's what the average guy thinks, right? That's what I would think. Well, what they didn't realize was he gave this money back. There's money laundering case that he was involved in. He miraculously gets dropped out of that. The guy that he wanted to money to went to federal prison too.

2:07:06Yeah. So all that's in the book. That's the reason I had to write the book, Joe. I mean, the only reason he's in my book, he's in two chapters of 28. I couldn't have written a book and told this story without writing my relationship with him. The only thing I wrote in there was what I had to write in there. I mean, there are a lot of things that I didn't put in there and I'm not going to put in there. I only put the stuff in there that involved our betting relationship, our friendship, and this issue with the SEC. Nothing more or nothing less. Anything else involved in him or his personal life is not in the book and I would have never put it in the book.

2:07:46So that's the component about myself and him and about the Southern District, about my indictment. and the only way I could have told a story is right a book. Armicatein, when I decided to write this book, I have a fellow who works with me, advises me a lot of things. The guy's got a lot of expertise in these areas. His name is Glenn Puntine. And Glenn recommended Armicatein to me. And Armin worked with 60 minutes for eight years. He was a correspondent there. He was with CBS Sports, I think, for like 12 years. He's a highly, highly well -known, extremely respected journalist. He'd done 12 books.

2:08:31He won 12 Emmy Awards. He did the book on Tiger Woods. So I wanted Armin involved in this because I had to tell this story about my prosecution, about the Southern District of New York. I had to tell the story about the involvement of the New York Times of Wall Street Journal. But I had to have someone who could write that story who was a former investigative reporter and Armin is one of the absolute best in the world, but someone who no one would question their credibility. And Armin and Glenn Bunney and our team did a magnificent job in helping me tell that part of the story. You know, the rest of the book, you know, it's pretty much, it's in my words.

2:09:14I mean, I wrote the vast majority of the other. But I work with a lot of great people. In the book I work again, Armick Attain. I can't say enough good things about Armick. But Armick and explaining this story along with Glenn Vontine, the Southern District, you'd have to understand Glenn Vontine's background too. Here are two people who worked at the highest levels of journalism, but they've also worked with government and prosecutors. I mean, they worked, and they know this business inside and out. and you could ask either one of the, frankly, they were in disbelief of what the facts were until they confirmed what the facts were.

2:09:56And Armin, I think if I'm quote, and Armin correctly said, I've never seen anything like this. It sounds so dirty. Yeah, well, it was. What is it like to give, given up 31 months of your life or something, so gross? But, would you, 31 must your life, one year, 71 years old, which very easy could have been a life sentence. Yeah. It was rough. I mean, I left my wife at the time. We've been married 48th year of marriage, but you know, I left her a sick and I walked into a federal prison and I was like, you didn't know if you were ever getting out. I didn't know I was ever getting out because, again, my age.

2:10:38Right. Also, it's fucking dangerous. Yeah. It is dangerous. And I was in one of the, this is another Miss Norwood Joe. You know, and this is one of the biggest Miss Norwoods there is. And this is the reason I love you and I love your show because you get a chance here to tell your story. You know, we're not in sound bites and we're not, you know, it's not some BS orchestrated story out there. You know, I went to Pensacola Prison and I hired a prison consultant and I wanted to, I was looking for someplace I could go to that my wife could communicate, you know, not communicate, could commute to reasonably.

2:11:17And while I was in prison, she was in Kentucky the majority of the time. So it wasn't a bad commute for her. But they also had a program there. It's called RDAMP. It's alcohol. If you've had issues with alcohol in the past and you qualify for this program, you go through it, you get a year from your son and so I thought I could possibly qualify for that. Well, I go there and there's been a story written about this present like in 2008 I think it was written by either Barbara Walters or someone like Barbara and they describe this present as like a country club and Ask women pools and the people could play golf and anyway I'm gonna tell you the place that I went to okay.

2:11:56I don't know what is like in 2008 But I can tell you what it was like in 2017 and October the 10th when I walked in there

2:12:06I and a building was built in 1960. And this building, this was where naval airmen used to be housed. I was in a room 18 by 22 with nine other prisoners on bunk beds. They had black mold all over the walls. There was no heat whatsoever in this building. I'm in Pensacola, Florida. I'm not Miami. me. I'm in a concrete block building. It's got chillers that run 24 -7. So in the winter there, I mean, you can't imagine how cold you would get in there. There's 200 men on this floor. We had a restroom on each side of the entrance, but you got 10 men in 18 by 22 room, you got black mold over the walls and you got no heat.

2:13:02The food in this place was just horrible. There were prisons that came down who'd been in multiple levels of federal prisons. Everyone themselves were worse food they'd ever seen in any place. Medical care there was, it was pedophile. One of the doctors' nickname was Dr. Death. I mean, there was a guy there that they diagnosed with hemorrhoids, I think yeah, hemorrhoids, in any data colon cancer. I mean, I could tell you another story. It's funny, but it's not funny to give you an idea how bad the medical care was. There's a guy who went in and he had a place on his face. They told him to come back.

2:13:43They were going to take it off. It's like in February. The guy goes back in, this doctor's death takes the big thing off the other side of his face, the wrong side.

2:13:58He gets up and the guy wishes the merry Christmas on the way out. Now we're in the middle of February, the guy put a big hole in the complete wrong side of his face left the other face. That was one of the doctors who was there. So I got to flew when I first went in there and I'm really sick. I mean really, really sick. And I got so sick I've been bed like three, four days. Well, I went down immediately to try to get something for the flu. They told me to drink more water and to take aspirin. And I could get to aspirin out of the commissary. Two days later I go down and start to have problems with my lungs.

2:14:35I got chewed out for coming back down again. They gave me nothing. Luckily for me, there were some guys that were inside the present that gave me some things that could help me. Hadn't been for that, I'm not sure. I don't know what the outcome of that would have been. It could have been bad because I was bed ridden for six, seven days. And I saw that on multiple occasions. So the good thing about the place was there were no bars. You could walk around it, you know, at certain times with total freedom. There was a track. Oh, there had a place you could do weights. The visitation there was great until COVID came along.

2:15:12and so yet you had plenty of opportunities to have visits. There weren't bars. You had a track. That was all good. But I can tell you, the medical care there, the food, and the conditions themselves were horrible. I mean, they were horrible. And the people who came down from low and medium security presence, they said they were much better in the presence they came from than they were there. Those conditions were. So that's a reason, along with the fact, you know, when I got out, I had to do something about this. I mean, it was just, but that's a story that isn't being told. It's like, I saw some gather of the day.

2:15:52I sent us to Pensacola and I saw the story that some lazy journalist just rewrote something they read that somebody else put in there two, three, four years ago. That isn't accurate. And they describe his place as being some kind of country club. You think it's a country club, partner? you go and then aren't check in and you go over and get you some of those boots that you're forced to wear. There are seconds that are made in China. I got a pair of boots when I got there. The second day I had lost a toenail. Luckily for me at the time there was a doctor there and I went and saw this doctor and he gave me some shoes that I self -dress holes.

2:16:27From what I understand they've eliminated those today. You have to wear the boots that they give you there now. They're still to the boots and they're not even good. It was like I say the majority of them don't even fit the people. How do I know that. I worked in the laundry myself and I wasn't one over their issue and that stuff and I went to the head of the place and I said look these things are horrible. People are coming back, they're feeding everything else. Finally they changed them out and they got some that did fit better. But I mean it's just, anyway it is what it is but the present isn't supposed to be, it's supposed to be a punishment to a certain degree and it's supposed to be a detriment and there's no question about that.

2:17:03and you're not supposed to go to some country club, but you should be able to go to some place where you don't have to sleep next to a black mold. And if you do have a medical issue, and you truly do have the flu, and it's diagnosed by the flu by them, that you get something to treat the flu. Just the fact that you gave up 31 months of your life, the fact you had to go to that place, and that now you know all the actual details of the case. You know all the stuff that was withheld. That's got to be a tough pill to swallow. I mean, that would make me very bitter. Joe, when I got out of federal prison and giving an idea, I was still under home confinement.

2:17:43I filed a federal lawsuit in New York. I sued the former head of the FBI. I sued Preet Bahar, the former US attorney. I sued David Chavez. I sued Daniel Goldman, who's now the congressman up there. And I sued or filed them, I said, oh, a Zobel, the guy who was the second to come in up there, the yesterday's office. I'm going to give you an idea. I filed a federal lawsuit up there and the lawsuit speaks for themselves and I laid out the allegations of all the things that these people did from my perspective. Do you know that not one media organization in New York even reported the lawsuit? New York Times, New York Post, New Yorker, not one of those news organizations even reported the fact that I had filed a suit against these people we're talking about.

2:18:33That's what bothers me. Forget about, you know, if somebody files, I don't care what kind of suit is or what the allegations are. I mean, it's news. Yeah. Now, I filed a suit. It's in federal court for eight months. Their only answer was the Statue of Limitations ran out after eight months, and judged through it out. I would have to file this federal lawsuit while I was in federal prison under federal custody in order for me to file it within the time of the Statue of Limitations. But the fact that it didn't even get reported that I filed a suit of media's allegations, that's what puts a chill in me.

2:19:17How can that happen? Because it's dirty. Yep. They all have relationships. How do those lawsuits, all the lawsuits that you filed, how do they pan out? Well the one I filed against them got through out because of the state of the limitations it ran out. And that was really the only suit that I filed. There was only suit I could file. So there's no recourse? No, there's no recourse. No, which is unbelievable. Yeah, well another thing Joe after I was convicted once you're convicted in the federal system There's a department I forget what the name of it is But they work for the courts You go meet and this lady's name was Rebecca Dawson.

2:20:01I won't forget her name You go up. You spend a day they interview you they get all your background and and they go back check your background on it extensively and then they turn it over to the judge with a recommendation, their recommendation. Okay, after they had interviewed me, they thoroughly investigated my background. The recommendation of the judge was to give me a year and a day and a 10 million dollar fine. The judge gave me five years and I paid in fines and restitution 45 million. On top of that, Joe, I was ordered to pay another $9 million for Tom Davis' legal fees. The guy who testified against me.

2:20:49Dean Foods for some unexplainable reason. First part of it, I understand. The second part of it, I don't understand it all. When he originally got his attorney, they were paying his legal fees because he was on a board of directors. That part I understand. Okay. But after he decided to become a government witness and he pled guilty to a bunch of things and one of them was, you know, passed all inside of formation, they continued to pay his legal fees. Even after that, so his legal fees were like nine million bucks. So they got law firm, came forward, filed a thing, and the judge ordered me and Tom Davis to reimburse Dean Foods for $9 million.

2:21:37Because this guy, he's not gonna give me any money. I paid the entire $9 million, right? So the Supreme Court comes along later on and they rule that apportion those fees they weren't entitled to. So they have to refund me the portion of those fees. What do you think happened there? Dean Foods goes bankrupt, I got sniff on them too. I never got a nickel in my money, right?

2:22:04So glad you can laugh. Well, Joe, you know, you got two choices this. I wanted to tell a story. You know, look, I'm not the only guy who's been through something similar to this. A lot of people go through this. They get out of prison. They say, look, man, you know, I just want it over with, you know, I don't want to have a reoccurring problem with sewing, sewing, sewing, sewing. So who wants to piss off powerful people? Okay.

2:22:34I'm not cut out of that cloth, but I actually did this more for other people than I did for myself. There are so many people out there, Joe, that don't have the resources, they don't have the resiliency that I do. They don't have the support that I do. And this is going on today, partner. And this is going to continue to go on until the people make the laws do something about this. Okay? Look, the vast vast majority of the people and law enforcement are great people. And I agree with that too. The problem that you've got there, and I see this over and over, and is there are some bad ones? Like in any profession you have some bad ones, okay?

2:23:19The problem I see there is when they don't, the bad ones they have, they're good ones start a blind eye to them. They don't do anything about it because they don't want trouble. Yeah and I give you an example in my case the guy that worked with this guy Chavis, he blew the whistle on him and because of what he was doing. Prior to me being a dietary dinner, we learned this through our discovery. The guy blew the whistle on him inside the FBI. That guy got transferred to some other party the United States when they promoted Chabas. Yeah, yeah. 30. Yeah. So, but again, I get it. I mean, I've had people are very close to me.

2:24:01When I decided to write this book and when I decided to sue those people in New York. And, you know, aren't you worried about this? Aren't you worried? I said, look, I'm not worried about nothing. You know, at the end of the day, I can't live my life like that. I mean, look, I'm not doing illegal, I'm not doing anything on ethical. I'm not, you know, but does that mean that someone can't target me for something? They can target me for it. I mean, again, that's the other problem. I mean, so this guy Chavez, right? Okay. Say, I'm the retire. He gets paid. He doesn't get prosecuted. Okay. What kind of, what can I do with Chavez?

2:24:45I can't do anything with travel. I can't do anything. That's crazy. That's crazy. It really is crazy. Oh, that's crazy. You know, I've worked with Josh Dubin, who used to be a part of the Innocence Project, and now he's doing some things on his own, and it's all about releasing people from jail. To the point that I'm directly unjustly prosecuted, and it's, you hear about these cases. All the time, partner. It's insane. It's insane. It's so dirty. Well, the publisher that did my book, Simon and Schuster, the editor there, we were talking one day and we were talking about the book and the books.

2:25:28It's done very, very well and we're proud of that. But the book is, everybody would kind of think what the book's written about. This guy is a professional handicapper. People don't know about that. They won't know about his interest in life there. Well, what they've, what's actually come back, you know, I think people care, I think the public, the book is more tied to the human interest side of it and anything else. And the guy went on to say, he said, Billy, you know what the perfect story is. I said, no, he said, well, the perfect story is one of one of one of stories out there is complete silence.

2:26:02He said, in your case, your story involves the FBI, involves the New York Times, it involves a Wall Street Journal in a Vossville, Michaelson. There's not one of these people who have refuted one word you've said in this book. I hadn't thought about that, you know. And they have it because it's all factual, it's all true and there's no grounds to refute anything I said in the book. Is that the most corrupt thing that you've ever, I mean your guy's been involved in gambling your whole life, which people think of is like very shady business, is dangerous, you're involved with all sorts of unscrupulous characters.

2:26:42Is that the most dirty thing you've ever been involved with? Not even close. No? Yeah, it's not even remotely close. Yes it is. Wow. Well, undoubtedly. Which is crazy because you're a guy inside. You've had your life threatened. You know, rather you were in a trunk of a car at one point in time. What was all that about? It was an early 80s Joe before I moved to Las Vegas. At a nightclub in Louisville it was called Butch Cassidy's. It was a cutlery music. John, you had to fight your way in, fight your way out.

2:27:20And anyway, it was the day after Super Bowl and everybody owed a pay. And of course most people owed me the income by it. But we had some proper bed there and I forgot what the door charge was, five bucks, ten bucks, whatever it was. That pocket full of money, it looked like a lot of money but it was like 4 ,000 bucks but it looked like 40. So I'll leave the joint, it's like four o 'clock in the morning and I drive home and I'm living in a condo and I pull up in front of the condo, I didn't have a garage. and I put up front of Condo and got out of the car and all of what's two guys with a ski mask on they jumped out they were hitting down below the next car one of them had a double barrel shotgun and another one had a 45 they stuck a shotgun next to my ribs at 45 next to my head and and they robbed me and so and The guy's got the shotgun.

2:28:18I was shot, guns jumping up and down. I said, man, just calm down here. I said, everything's cool. I'm trying to cool him down, see. What was so funny? I just got back from Vegas, Joe. And I didn't tell this story in the book, but I get a chance to tell it here. And I used to play a lot of poker out there. And at the Golden Nugget there was a guy who had sold watches his name was Sam Angel. And he sold these knockoff watches. I mean, they look like they ever authentic as they could. But you could buy Rolex from him at the time for like 35 bucks. And I had this Rolex watch. It was a knockoff. It wasn't real, but man, they look real.

2:28:54Well, they were, they took my money, but they didn't touch that Rolex watch. So, I mean, it clearly was inside job. So they took me back to the truck of the car and they said, they opened the truck of the car and they told me to get in. I first bought this enough and I'm not getting the truck of this car. And they said, look, you get this truck of this car. One or two ways. Do you go to get on your own or you're going to fall in? Anyway, I got in the truck of the car. They closed the truck of the car. So from you, your mag is a race and I figure, well, they pull out, they go to empty that double barrel shotgun on me.

2:29:26So I'm scrambling around. I got the tire loose and got behind it, you know, the spare tire. Car goes by. I breathe the sigh of relief. They're gone. All at once I realized I'm in the truck of this car. This wasn't back when they had a deal where you could open the truck of the car. And it was a Lincoln and I got panicking and I got thinking I'm a smothered in truck of this car So I got a tire tool and I tried to get the truck open And you know you're dribbling I wouldn't have stolen a guy But the drill and I've been to start to have not truck wouldn't go anywhere Well finally I got to go through the back seat or some holes in the back seat where they got speakers and stuff I finally dug through there and and punched a hole in the back seat of the car and I'm screaming, well I never did wake my wife up but I woke up the next door neighbor.

2:30:15So he goes over wakes my wife up, so the Susan comes out, she figures, you know, I come home with John, I'm drunk in the back of the car, right? Anyway, she comes out, she hears me in the back seat, finally she goes, the truck gets me out, but no, I didn't. I'm not in absent sure I know who did it, but anyway, it, it was a memorable experience. Your whole life has been a series of memorable experiences, sir. Yeah, you're right. One thing about it, Joe, I got my money's worth. If it were all in tomorrow, I think it's your changed. Yeah, I mean, you've got a great book out and you've got wild stories and you seem to have your peace of mind.

2:31:01Oh, I do. Which is amazing. Considering what you've gone through, especially with the trial, Well, what they did to you, it's amazing that you're so relaxed and so calm and so a piece and that speaks to your character. Joe Mahol is son when he was seven years old. I was diagnosed with a terminal brain tumor. He was given 30 days to live and that changed my life. And I was a young guy at the time, gone all the time as I wrote about in a book and completely focused on making money. I went through that and it changed my life. As a result of that, I got involved with working with Intellectually Challenge People.

2:31:46I got introduced on organization on this thing. It's called Opportunity Village. It's strictly an organization that works with Intellectually Challenge People. That's been one of the most fulfilling things that's ever happened to me. So, you know, it's every negative thing that's ever happened to me in my life, everyone, something positive has came out of it. And that involved me in my son's God who, who the Gracie God's teller had to die to find all odds. But that changed my life. It made a lot better man out of me. Yeah. That's awesome. Billy, tell everybody the title of the book where they can get it.

2:32:28And is there an audiobook book available? There is. Did you read it? Unfortunately, I read it. Joe, you left the deal perfect. You'll have to listen to so much of us, be voice. I want you to read it. Well, the story. I'd like it to be in your voice. Well, the publisher trapped me. The book's called Gamma, or a sinker's from a life at risk, but back to the audio book part of it, the publisher trapped me. He said, would you try to do this? He said, most Most people can't do it because that's all they had to do is tell me that. So I had my personal knee replacement. So I go in this studio a couple weeks later.

2:33:03I got earphones on like we have now. I got a producer. I got my knee all propped up in the chair with ice on it. And I'm doing the audio portion of this book. You've probably done a number of them. But you know, the part of the book that I wrote, the part of the book that's in my words, I had no problem with it all. The part of the book in there that others wrote and there were words used that I don't use every day. Sometimes I'd have to repeat those paragraphs two, three, four times. The second day, it took me 40 hours to do this thing. The publisher, she started laughing, she said it's so obvious, you know, you would never use certain words.

2:33:45But it was an experience, I'll never forget it, I'm glad I did do it. But some of the shoesters write. There's very few people probably will do it because it's not an easy thing to do. No, it's not an easy thing to do But that sounds like your whole life. Yes, sir Well, this ability I appreciate your time appreciate you coming in here and appreciate you write your book and I'm glad you did. I really am. I'm glad I got a chance to sit down talk to you Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it and I have nothing but the utmost respect for you Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

2:34:20All right Bye buddy.