#2129 - David Holthouse

28:39Like this, and I don't understand why it's so prevalent. And I think, you know, I've equated it to vampires that it seems like one of the things that happens to some of the people that get molested is they They wound up doing it to others. And that is a harsh truth. I mean, I try and do what I can to dispel the stereotype because that was one of the things that scared the shit out of me when I was a teenager is the idea that I was going to become a pedophile myself. Right. But yeah, it's unfortunate. So you know, it's that hurt people, hurt people, grishy, right? But there's truth behind it. It is with violence.

29:19It is with everything with someone. It's an pedophilia which let's just call it raping kids is just an incredibly destructive force in our culture and in all cultures and I just like it's the one kind of criminal I think that I just have absolutely no sympathy for no, do I know most people feel the same way I mean when you talk about like One of my daughters is very much against the death penalty and I think for a good reason and because we've had conversations about people that are unjustly accused and she knows that I've had many people on my podcast that spent a long time in jail for crimes that they didn't commit and some of them were on death row and they could have been executed.

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32:28Tap the banner to learn more or visit buffalotracedestillery .com. That's buffalo tracedestillery .com. Distilled, aged and bottled by buffalo trace distillery, 90 proof. Franklin County, Kentucky, Buffalo Trace, American, family owned, independent and perfectly untamed. And we said in a perfect scenario, when you absolutely know that the law has got the right person and that this person has done something and then they have killed people whether it's a serial killer or whatever it is. Yeah, maybe the death penalty makes sense. But we don't have a perfect legal system. But and then the subject of child molesters came up and they were like, oh no, kill them all.

33:16Everybody's, you know, it's almost like an instinctual reaction. Yeah. Yeah, it's an especially my wife, mothers, you know, they hear that and it's just like, that's the one, like you have to kill them. Does they never fucking stop? No, they don't. They never stop. It's a weird sickness. It's just so strange that it's not a very, very rare, uncommon thing, you know, that like exists like in a handful of places in the world occasionally. But then when you hear about something like the Catholic Church, you know, there was Pope Benedict when he got kicked out. There was a lot of people that didn't understand what was going on and I was looking into it and you find out what that guy did and one of the things that he did that's so evil is he would move people.

34:08So he would take a priest that was molesting kids and just move them to another unsuspecting place. And he went on to molest one of these guys that they caught, went on to molest 100 deaf kids, at least 100, that they're aware of. And just go, like, and he knew that this guy was a pedophile. And it's just, the Catholic church in particular is just like, I went to Catholic school and nothing happened to me, but things did happen to people that I know that did go to Catholic school. And it's just like, is there another religion that is more connected? Like when you hear the term Catholic priest, right?

34:50Patifile is right. Like if you're playing a game like Catholic priest, petafile, you know, like you would say that, you know, what is that charades? What's that game? When you know like you say, you know, tough, big, runs fast, football player, yes. You know like that you'd say a Catholic priest pedophile. You know what I'm saying? It's like it's and was an open secret for so long too, you know, yeah, it's crazy I think a lot of the priests were probably drawn to the church for the access to kids I mean yeah to Nanda and you've been diving built himself a little pedophile heaven up there, you know once he had the power So how did they did you talk to anybody?

35:30From there that kind of reform that place like how did they once they got rid of him? well first of all he finally went to prison for murder uh... for con you know murder for higher basically along with racketeering and like he was selling like counterfeit you know football has a shit i'm still in jail i know he's dead he's dead but he still has like within not within is con but within the larger sort of christian consciousness movement he still has uh... he still has a falling and i went i went to his tomb that's in vrndaub in india And I had like a translator kind of fixer with me and I had one camera guy and we sort of bullshit our way in and it was this creepy fucking place man It was like this These sort of like almost Soviet block looking apartment.

36:20There's all half finished like there was his tomb and there were flowers and incense and photos of him and stuff And it's basically after he got out of prison. He eventually as an old man and he went to India and Pakistan and like drew a fall of like Pakistani and boys basically that are now men in their 20s and 30s and they occupy this sort of compound around his tomb and the one that we sort of both shared away past was starting to get like little suspicious of what we were doing and of our story which is like that we were just tourists basically that had sort of wondered by this place and we're interested by it and all these dudes just started coming out of these, they look like vacant buildings, but they clearly weren't.

37:07You know, all these like follows are cured to none and the translators like it's time to go now, time to go now. Time to go now. Time to go now. And so, you know, we book it out of there. Wow. Yeah. But he still has like followers and frankly, even within ISKCON, he still has sort of quiet supporters. Jesus. Yeah. Yeah, in Holy Hell, they talk about this guy that they kicked out. He's still on the loose and they flew him to Hawaii and he started to call him Hawaii. And in the documentary they show him in Hawaii with his devotees, just taking him around, opening the door for him, the whole deal.

37:46It's so strange, the cult thing is so bizarre because it's so common and it just seems like there's so many people that want to be led by someone who has the answers. As most people are like you and I, they're like, try to do our best, live our life, fuck up, make mistakes, try to figure out what makes you happy, like, what's this all about? What is life? What are we doing here? And for some, when someone comes along, says, I have the answers. You're like, oh, this guy's got the answers. I need the fucking answers. Like one of the answers. And it's... Yeah, I will say, you know, I spent a lot of time with with Harry Krishnan, who was Christian to consciousness devotees, you know, and then making that show.

38:29And generally speaking, they are positive, peaceful souls. They seem at peace with their place in the world. In a way that, you know, I frankly found sort of compelling and attractive. And so it's easy to see, and maybe they do have the answers. Maybe this ancient like spiritual tradition is at least part of the answer. Well, it certainly can be an answer for some people. If you are of the right mindset and if you're truly trying to be on that path, but the problem is it's so easy to be subverted. It's like someone can come along and slowly kind of take over and twist it. True with any religion.

39:13Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look at televangelists. Right? I mean, there's real Christians out there that are really great, wonderful people that want to live by the teachings of Christ and live a better, more just and holy life. And they really do want to live like that. And then there's psychos who want private jets and a giant arena to have all their followers and they want mansions. Yeah. Yeah, those guys are real. And they thrive. They're everywhere. Well, one of Kyrton and Anders and Hitman was this guy named Thomas Drescher, whose Christian name was Tirta, and he drove the bus. There was a school bus that wasn't driving kids around, but they bought a school bus to kind of take people from one part of the commune to another, whatever.

40:01But really why he was there. And he was one of the dudes that joined the... He was in Vietnam. Vietnam combat that. I think he saw hardcore combat in Vietnam. came back bent in the head, was trying to find the answers, trying to find help probably for PTSD, found the Harry Christian is joined, but the first temple or two that he was at, they were like, something a little off about this guy. So let's send him to Kierzenanda. Kierzenanda met this dude and was like, oh, I got a purpose for you brother. You know, you're now in force for number one. And so if you fucked up, if like you weren't supposed to have a television, or if you broke the rules, or you defied Kierzenanda in any way, if you If you got some money from your family, you didn't kick it to him.

40:41Tear it to came and paid you a visit. And when Kiritunand started whacking dudes, basically it was tear to the, did it. You know, he just, just shoot you. Yeah. Yeah. He was, he was smart. He buried Charles St. Dennis' body. He diverted a little creek and by damming it up and then buried the body and then took way the damn. So the homicide cop, Thomas Westfall, he was like, I was looking for that body everywhere, I never thought to look under the little river, you know. Did they bring cadaver dogs to dress search for? I don't think they brought dogs. Eventually, like, what happened was, and the reason that Kiritinana, why they finally got him, is that Tirta flipped on him.

41:24Now they arrested Tirta Thomas Dresher for murder, because there was another devotee that got killed in Los Angeles, that was also sort of outing Kyrton Ananda and his corruption and whatnot. And so they got Dresher and once he was in prison, Kyrton Ananda held the ceremony and like appointed him to this like high status within Krishna consciousness. And of course that was like a way to try and keep him quiet. And he remained a believer. But then there was this incident known as the Winnebago incident where Kyrton Ananda, there was this, was writing in a Winnebago with this like, I think it was a little boy from Pakistan or India and like curtains jostled open and he was seen in full view by multiple witnesses like, sodomizing this kid.

42:11And like too many people saw it to cover it up, right? And word got to Thomas Dresher in prison that this had happened. And he heard from enough people who he trusted and believed that this was true, that he immediately flipped on Kirtananda and said, like, yeah, he paid me. and ordered me to kill these guys, and here's where you can find the bus. So he didn't know that... He didn't believe it. He didn't believe it. He was a true believer. He didn't want to believe it. So it was only when he was... He didn't first hand witness it himself, but it's only when he was faced with multiple people who he trusted, who were telling him, we saw this.

42:49It's true. And then to his credit, I think he immediately flipped. We tried to do an interview with him, but... He couldn't get in the prison to get him to go on camera. So we do in the show, we do have audio interview, excerpts, good pressure. Wow. One of the saddest things about Holy Hell is they talked to some of the devotees that had left and now they're lost because they had essentially, they had left 20 years of their life with this guy. And now here they were 50. And like this one lady was like a dog walker now. She had just kind of lost no real purpose in life. Didn't, you know, her whole thing was bullshit.

43:38Her whole life was bullshit. And some of the kids that grew up at Newfound Daven and their cute to Nanda when it was, it was legitimately occult by any definition. You know, some of them are still followers of Christian consciousness, some of them, you know, have left it way behind, right? Yeah. And have nothing good to say about that. But some of them are still like followers of probably pod's teachings. You know, and they believe that Kirtananda was an aberration. I think that's probably right. I think that's probably right too. Yeah. I mean, my friend who's really into the hard Christianists, he's a very peaceful guy and the way he looks at it is like, you know, this is, this is a way to live.

44:16This is a possible way to live for some people that if done correctly and done with the right spirit and the right mindset Like really can be a beautiful blissful way of existing. Right and I just I like not only like I buy into the idea of karma reincarnation that that Reaches true that feels true to me in reincarnation. Yeah. Yeah Really what would reads is true apart reads is true?

44:47Well, then we get into DMT. All right, I tried DMT. What did you do that? It was in 2013. Number one and done DMT guy. Don't need to do it again. Okay. So here's my DMT story. As it, in 1999, I was super in the rave scene and I was in London at this three day rave called the warp. And it was the kind of party where it was like someone asked you the time, you'd be like, It's 9 .30 and they'd be like, A .M. or P .M. You know? And it was a great party, right? Three days near the Tower of London, literally underground, an underground party, literally underground. They had DJ rooms and dance rooms.

45:25But they also had these live performance rooms. And I saw this performance artist called the Technopagin Octopus Messiah. And he was describing his DMT experience. And I hadn't heard about DMT. And then, and by the way, his stuff is fantastic. I think he's the, he's come the closest of anybody except Terence McKenna and actually like capturing what the DMT experience is as a writer. Outside his performance, where the rumor is performing, there's this 10th that just said deep, deep meditation therapy. And I was like, oh, now I know what that means, right? And I watched people doing DMT and I was like, I was already rolled in on three or four hits of MDMA.

46:04So I was like, well, not tonight. But if it ever comes my way, I'm gonna do it. I mean, myself will promise that night. I'm not gonna seek this out, but if it ever comes my way. And then it did. And in 2014, I just went to see a buddy mine in Brooklyn. I was working on a documentary out there and he was like, you wanna try this. I was like, okay, before I change my mind, let's do this. And 15 minutes later, I believed in reincarnation. I believed in Carmen reincarnation. So, I felt a lot better about death. Yeah, I felt a lot better about that too after I did it. But with my experience was that I got a short glimpse that's sort of a user manual for the cosmos.

46:49And in there was the knowledge that reincarnation is real. That the Buddhists have it right. That after you die, you go to the barto for 49 days. Your soul is out there. You get a chance to kind of like assess the last life you led before you take another spin on the carousel, learn what you can, get rewarded for your good deeds, suffer for your sins, and then go back. And I believe it, but I also just like it, you know? I just like it, it feels true to me in a way that like the evangelicals or fundamentalist Christian idea of like, you can just do a bunch of bad shit, and then promise yourself to Jesus and have a clean slate.

47:30Fuck that, I'm not buying that, you know? But karma and reincarnation, I'm buying it. There's something there. I mean, it's fascinating that that concept has existed for so long. And even the concept of heaven that existed for so long, and angels and souls and all those things. I think we have a very limited ability to grasp reality. And I think that limited ability is biological. It's kind of based upon our primate origins and what we are as a thing as a biological entity. We only have essentially the tools that we need in order to survive. And those tools are the ability to recognize danger and communicate and establish community and purpose and all these different things.

48:23But when you have like real breakthrough psychedelic experiences, to me, it seems like it's allowing you Avisioned into all that exists not just what you're physically capable of seeing as a human being but This chemical gateway or whatever it is that that psychedelics give you allows you to see that these things What I got out of it is that everything is connected. Every action, every thought, your thoughts, your life, your words, your deeds, the way you approach things, the way you respond to things, that they're all connected in some very strange way. And the living my life, the more I follow that as thinking that everything is all connected, the more my life has been more beautiful.

49:23The more my life has been, more rewarding and rich, and more pleasing, more filled with love and community. It's something that I kind of need to remind myself all the time because I think the biological entity has certain human reward systems that are built into it. try to require resources to try to establish dominance, to try to succeed. There's all these different things that as a human, you know, people who are, they want success, they want all these different things. And that those things can kind of, because you can see the physical manifestation of that work that can sort of overcome the idea that everything is connected.

50:17And so that's I think why people cheat on their taxes or insider trade or do all these different things, fuck people over and business deals and they don't think that they're going to experience any negative consequences of it. But I don't think anybody gets away free. Again, that's why I like the idea of carbon reincarnation. Yeah. You don't get away with it. There's something to it. There's something and it's again going back to the Vedas like the the oldest Spiritual you know organized system of spiritual beliefs known. Yeah for our species. That's core to it Well, we have reincarnation the most complicated organism We are the most complicated organism that we're currently aware of in terms of our ability to manipulate our environment our ability to communicate Our ability to create things.

51:03Yeah, but we don't have an operators manual which is crazy. So we're essentially running on this primate software that was really established. It's almost like we have DOS or Windows 95 and we just keep refreshing it. You know, we don't. There's no real new operating system and it's so filled with flaws. The human operating system is designed to ward off predators and to fight off neighboring tribes and try to avoid starvation. and to try to make sure that your genes pass on and that your enemies genes don't. And to exist in 2024 and modern Western world with all of our technology and all of our knowledge and all of the information that we have available with this ancient primate software is so problematic.

51:58It's so fraught with peril. There's so many things that can go wrong, so many people that go sideways with drug addiction and gambling addiction and sex addiction and this addiction and that addiction and so much chaos and you know, fever and violence and you know, and deception and fraud and there's just so many things that exist that are negative but are tied to this concept of achieving and getting more. which is, you know, this famine -based mentality, this resource acquiring mentality. That really is like the monkey stealing your sunglasses so it can get mangoes. It's really, you know? No, totally agree.

52:41And I felt like with DMT, I got like a very short, it was like, I felt like there was this sentient, generally benevolent force out there in the cosmos. It was like, okay, look, I'm going to give you a lot of information. You're not going to be able to retain most of it. Right. But you're ready? Here we go. Yeah. And one of the things that I brought back that I still believe a decade later is that reincarnation is real. That's how it works. Karma is real. That's how it works. What you do in this life affects your next one. And that also gives you the user's guide you're talking about, how to be a better person, how to be a better species.

53:15I didn't get a reincarnation vibe. I'm not opposed to the idea of reincarnation, but I got a vibe that there's other things, and there's other dimensions, There's other experiences and there's maybe levels of existence. And that this existence that we're experiencing right now as human beings is just very strange, confusing, almost like a puzzle that you are on this planet trying to solve. And you can get distracted. Yeah, yeah, you can get distracted by all sorts of things in this life, but the things that bring you happiness and love You have to kind of like sort those out and choose those amongst the different options that the puzzle gives you You know this podcast psychedelic salon.

54:05Yeah, okay sure. I have that guy on Lorenzo. Yeah, Lorenzo Lorenzo Heggart. He's great Yeah, he is I've recently got to know him and he asked me to give you a message because I guess two or three months ago So you were amusing about whether or not you was still alive because he hadn't posted any new episodes recently. He is still alive. That's his message. Lorenzo's message. And after he heard that you'd raise that question, he's been posting. Oh, that's great. Yeah. So Lorenzo and I in the aforementioned TechnoPage and Octopus Messiah are in the process of collaborating with some AI animation artists on a documentary about the Stone Dapetary.

54:42I think it's going to be dope. Have you seen Dennis McKenna's assessment of it? He broke it down on the podcast where he was explaining to me the actual mechanisms that would be involved in psilocybin accelerating the human mind and the ability to form language and concepts and creativity and all the different things that McKenna talked about. But you know Dennis is like hardcore like fact -based scientist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah You've had several great guests on their talk about that theory But I've been like there's about to be already there's it's showing signs, but there's about to be just a glut of AI animation Movies even in documentaries like I think AI animation is gonna replace, you know Recreations you know where they hire actors to recreate stuff.

55:33We did it in Christmas. Yeah, we we we recreated, you know murder scenes using actors and firearms and stuff, prop firearms. But I think, but so I've been approached with, I don't even know how many ideas for like, do AI animation docs. I've just been like gimmick, gimmick, gimmick, but this one really felt right. Like, AI think that Territz McKenna would have loved the idea of using AI animation to like, you know, show the evolution of our species, you know, as they pick the mushrooms out of the couch and stuff. And also one idea that we're toying with, that I think we'll go forward with now that we've actually, you know, I think we've got the technology actually dialed in, where we've built this AI world, this Terrence McKenna AI world, where we can give it ideas and it'll spit back imagery to us that feels right, is building some sort of like AI avatar of Terrence McKenna.

56:23So the idea is that the spine of the documentary will be any time, where, because Lorenzo has incredible archives of Terrence McKenna, you know, stuff that nobody else has. Yeah, it is everything and anytime you're hearing Terence McKenna's voice describing the stone date theory will take people through it step by step you'll be seeing AI animation of what he's describing so we hear in Terence McKenna's voice but seeing AI. So for people that don't know what the stone date theory is we should probably explain it to them for people who've never heard that before and the concept is that at one point in evolution There was climate change and that these tropical rainforests had receded into grasslands and that these primates had started experimenting with different food sources by flipping over cow patties and looking for grubs and all these different things and one of the things that they would do is probably test the mushrooms that were growing in the cow patties.

57:21And in many places where psilocybin exists, these things are extremely prevalent. Like my friend Duncan who grew up in Asheville, North Carolina told me that mushrooms were so prevalent that the local ranchers had They started putting feed in with the cattle feed some sort of anti -fungal Thing to keep fungus from growing in cow shit Yeah, because so many kids were going on to the field and picking psilocybin mushrooms He's like they were everywhere. Yeah, they were everywhere, you know, and And so the concept is that low doses of psilocybin increase visual acuity, make people more amorous. So it probably heightened sexual arousal, made people more likely to breed, and made people more curious, probably because of the increase in visual acuity, made people better hunters.

58:17There's studies that have been done. I forget with the scientist. It was a hardcore non -psychedelic scientist who did studies on edge detection with patients. You know these terms? And it showed that people under the influence of psilocybin can detect deviance. So if you have two parallel lines and one slightly deviates from parallel, the people on psilocybin can predict it much quicker, can see it much quicker than the people not on psilocybin. Right. Which is fascinating. And you'd be a much better hunter. Much better hunter. Yeah. and much better at surviving being hunted. And also just be more tuned into things.

58:52Yeah. You're more aware of, like, I know a lot of people that use psilocybin when they play certain sports. And they think that psilocybin and low doses. It's like low dose, yeah. Yeah, low doses for playing pool and things like that. You just have a better understanding of what's happening. I, I had to ask you a low, microdosis for chess. Chess, yeah. Yeah. Does it help you? I think it does. Actually, I can demonstrate that it does, you know, in my game ratings. Really? Absolutely. Interesting. Now, I don't know if I buy the Stone Dave Theory in the same way that I fully buy into, you know, the concept of the bar, I would reincarnation in Carnival and all that, but it's sure fucking fun to think about that.

59:33Well, doesn't it? I mean, it mimics DMT, like Silicide and Dimethal Trips, you mean, a very closely related. Yeah. You know, I think, I think when it's broken down, I think I'm going to fuck this up, But I think it's in for foriloxy and dimethyltriptamine. It's very close to what dimethyltriptamine is. And we also know that dimethyltriptamine is endogenously produced. It's produced in the human brain. We don't understand why. And that's a Rick Strassman who wrote that book, DMT The Spirit Molecules, talked about that. And they've done a lot of great research at the Cottonwood Research Foundation trying to to determine where it's produced, why it's produced.

1:00:15The use of the thing was just produced by the pineal gland. Now they think I believe it's produced by the whole brain. And this thing that these primates were finding was giving them that and giving them more of an understanding of the world around them and expanding the brain. And the other thing about the human, the concept of the Stone -Daped Theory is this bizarre fact in the history of humans that in the entire species, like the record of species, one of the biggest mysteries is the doubling of the human brain size over a period of two million years. And Mechanus says that that coincides with this exact same time period where the tropical rainforest were receding into grasslands, and then they believed that these primates were experimenting on new food sources.

1:01:05So there's all these things that sort of line up with it. and it makes it a fascinating idea. But if you think about, like, if they found out that this thing gives them this feeling and they were, you know, they're repeatedly using it over and over and over again and then they're offspring did it and they're offspring did it and you're, you know, playing this out over a couple million years. You could see how this would happen. Yeah. Also the development language. Yeah, yeah. The glossalea. Yeah, glossalea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. You know, like, high doses. like that's the language center.

1:01:39So like I said, I'm not sure I buy it, but you know, it should be a fun movie to make. Well something happened. Yeah. It's very obvious it's something happened that separated us from all the other primates, like in a radical way. We don't look anything like that. We have abilities and we have so many attributes that are far beyond any other primate and it kind of makes sense. Yeah. And also there's you know there's people that can achieve those states without psychedelics Which is fascinating and I've gone pretty close with with some breathing exercises and especially breathing exercises in sensory deprivation Mm -hmm.

1:02:20You can you can achieve some definite psychedelic states. I Haven't had the full Visible effects that are available with DMT But boy you definitely get to some bizarre place where if it was a drug It would be a very popular drug. Well, back to the Christian's, that's what probably Pod was preaching me. And a lot of his early devotees were people that had taken a lot of acid or mescaline or peyote and felt like they were getting glimpses of something, but they couldn't understand it. And he's like, let me show you how to get there, right, without the drugs. Right. And what was probably Pod using to try to get there?

1:02:55Meditation. Yeah. Just deep meditation. Yeah, I think, I think they're chanting, chanting of like ancient sacred mantras. and meditation. Well, that's the other thing that happens with DMT rituals that they play ecaros. These ancient South American songs that sort of, you know, enhance the experience. Like when you do DMT with ecaros playing, the DMT dances to the sound and it's very strange to watch. It's a beautiful, bizarre, and you know, it's overwhelming. Like you can't, it's hard to believe that it's really happening while it's happening. And you know, you gotta kind of let go and just like let it happen and experience it.

1:03:40Because you're so blown away by it all, it's hard to just not just go, what the fuck, like every five seconds. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You gotta kind of just take it in and accept it. Yeah. I tried to get my dad to try DMT. My dad died recently. And about six months ago, I tried to get him to try DMT. I was like, listen, you know. until I tried this, Dad, you know, I was like, same as you, like, basically, spocked, like, cold, logic, reason, right? You know, like, that's my dad. Yeah. Super smart, like, mathematical genius was my dad. And he was like, well, it sounds interesting, but I guess if you're right, I'll find out on my own, because I was like, this is kind of like the trailer for the movie, Dad.

1:04:19Interesting. I'll find out on my own. Yeah. Interesting. So, yeah, he, he, uh, he died like two weeks ago while I was in Ukraine. Oh, wow. Yeah. What were you doing in Ukraine? I was reporting. I was working. I wasn't filming but I was doing some research and I was in a I was in a war zone I mean with a whole fucking country is a war zone But I was in a war zone where like communications were Dicey at best and I got a text message from my wife on signal It was like your dad's heart valve is failing rapidly is in the hospital. He's probably got like 48 hours to live and The airspace over Ukraine's closed So there's no way that I could get from where I was in Ukraine to anchor your last going to be with him.

1:04:59And so I was just sending like text messages on signal to the nurses that were, and they were reading them to him. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was able to record one voice memo like right as he was going because the last sense to go when you're dying is sense of hearing. And they played him like a message from me. Wow. So but to answer your question, but what was I doing in Ukraine? Looking it's looking into a possible documentary that there'd be set against the backdrop of the current war But that would be more about like what is actually the true nature of corruption in Ukraine and what has it been and what was it in the 90s You know, yeah, and what is it today and like how has the US State Department?

1:05:45kind of fucked up again in the same way that we did in Vietnam and every war like Vietnam Afghanistan Iraq by back in the wrong horses you know we've never not fucked up yeah there's never been one whether it's Libya or Afghanistan Iraq there's not one we could point to like we nailed that one right there's not one right there's not one right and you know when there was so much resistance to the concept that Ukraine was corrupt when we first started backing them, you know, that was what was fascinating to me because it was always talked about how corrupt Ukraine was. It was always talked about.

1:06:24And then all of a sudden, this was a verboten topic. Like no, Russia is the aggressor and the invader and Ukraine are their angels. And they're like, wait a minute. You know, this is not reality. What was also the US government be like, okay, we would sort of designate who was corrupt and who wasn't. I mean, look, the US went through its own sort of oligarchy, like Robert Barron Fays, you know, in the late 1800s. I was like, after we'd been a democracy for 100 years, it's not, unfortunately, it's kind of a step on the evolution of democracy to have this phase where you're like, you know, things are super corrupt.

1:07:01I spent some time at an orthodox monastery in Ukraine last month and I asked the sort of head of the monastery, like, what would you have to do to get rid of corruption in this country? He's like, well, I'm a man of God. You know, he's speaking through an interpreter. He's like, I'm a man of God, so I'm not advocating this. But what he could do is you could take, because the main problem you train right now is I understand it is the judicial system. They have what they call telephone law, which is basically like before a judge makes a ruling, he gets a phone call telling him which way to rule.

1:07:29I don't choose you know and so he's the head of the monastery He's like you can line up every every judge and shoot him And then and then and then all the judges or all the like government officials that come to their funerals Shoot them and do that two or three times and then we might be able to start over like you were saying That's how systemic this is but I mean man of God's telling you this. Yeah, that's a guy who's like reached the limits Yeah, yeah, oh my god But I'll tell you, my time in Ukraine really changed my perspective on that war, and I came back a real sort of hawk thinking that we should fully support Ukraine.

1:08:08Really? In the war. Yeah. Why is that? Part of it was just being with the people who the Ukraine, I just like the Ukrainians, you know, in a way that I've been to other former Soviet it blocked countries and it's kind of like, I won't name any of them, but I just feel like, I'm not sure you guys are really down with the freedom and democracy thing, you know? It seems like you've been, you're subjugated for a while and you don't, it just didn't get the same vibe. I think that Ukrainians are legitimately freedom -loving people that have been like under the thumb of corrupt leadership for decades now.

1:08:42Yeah. But to just, part of it was, it was something very enthralling about being in a place where everyone is so unified, like this country under attack being invaded by a hostile force. Now these are the Ukrainians who have stayed behind. But there's still a lot of them. I mean, and just that coming from America where everything is so splintered and divided now and to be in a place where everyone is so on the same page, there is something very attractive about that. Well, that is what happens when you get invaded. Do you remember what it was like in America after 9 -11? Right after 9 -11. It was the most united this country has ever been.

1:09:24It's a horrible thing to say because it's not what you ever want to happen again to wake everybody up. But it was the thing that was required to make people put American flags on their cars. It was a horrible tragedy, but in a lot of ways the reaction to it was very beautiful. There was so many people that were so I was in New York City like just a few weeks or a few months after 9 -11 Everybody was friendly. It was crazy. It was like everybody was just so blown away by the experience of being attacked and so just shaken out of it and So aware of how fortunate they were to not be one of those people who died and That we are legitimately all together and that there are forces out there that are evil and that We have to stay united and I hate to think that that's what's required to wake people up from this division But I was wondering like I wonder if maybe the division that we have in this country is because of the fact that we're never attacked Because of the fact that we we only experienced a few of the Pearl Harbor 9 -11 There's only a few of these moments We've had to wake up.

1:10:36Yeah, yeah the illusion islands actually in Alaska were attacked and occupied by Japanese forces in World War 2 A little known fact. Yeah, that was actually American territory. I didn't know that. But I mean, we fucking, man, I mean, the Ukrainians, they had nuclear weapons and in 1994, the quote unquote, west, the US and the UK basically convinced them, you know, to give up their nukes in exchange for a guarantee that we would help them protect their sovereign territory. Right. Yeah. Yeah, that was right after the fall of the Soviet Union. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, there's so many factors, right? There's the NATO encroaching on Russia's territory.

1:11:17I mean, in 2004, like NATO started handing out membership cards, like fucking crackerjack prizes, right? Putin gets reelected in 2004, 20 years ago, and all of a sudden, like all these former Soviet, you know, small territories are now NATO countries. Yeah. You want to be NATO? Oh, well great. Now, we're like signed up for a mutual defense treaty with Lithuania. Right. You know, nothing against Lithuanians, but, fuck man, you know, This is getting serious. It's very serious. What happens if he invades a NATO country? Like, what are we going to do? No. Because China is watching, and I'll tell you, you know, I've been like, under fire would be over dramatic, but I've had quite a few Iranian fucking Shahid drones launched in my general direction recently.

1:12:03It gives you another perspective on like, you know, Russia's support for Iran and vice versa. I don't know, like mutual enemy of ours. Like, those Iranian fucking drones being shot at us. And I don't know. You know, Russia recently had Hamas, like had a delegation from Hamas. Visit the Kremlin. I mean, with the fuck, man. Really? Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway. This is a fucking sketchy time, man. It really is. It's such a sketchy time. It's to, you know, to say like, oh, like World War III is eminent. It sounds doomed there, but it feels like it could go that way. In a hurry. China, you know, they're looking at us.

1:12:44That's the problem if we sort of like showed our ass and back down, you know, if Putin keeps going, is then China may just test that red line. Right? What's how I want? Yeah, well, I think they're preparing for that. Yeah. At least when I've talked to people that understand. And, you know, I just, I mean, I think that the war in Ukraine could have been prevented. I think that there was this false dichotomy where there were forces in the US government. This is part of the documentary I want to make, is about that forced you, there was like, you either have to be, you know, a puppet of Russia or our puppet.

1:13:21You have to either have to be NATO or going, there's no middle ground. When, in fact, I think that Ukraine could have been a bridge, a peaceful bridge between Russia and the quote unquote West where maybe it could have joined the European Union economically free trade but not join NATO, right? Because that's what Putin was so Adam and against and you understand I mean I think he's a war criminal fucking power mad You know asshole, right? But you can sort of see from his perspective If you look at a map and you start to see all these NATO countries around Russia you kind of see You know what motivates him?

1:13:57Well, that's the people in the state department had always said that was his red line His red line was Ukraine. Yeah. Yeah. And then when they're trying to get Ukraine to join NATO, it's like, what are we doing? Right. What are we doing? We bring it about World War III and why and how much money is being spent? Right. And where is that money going? Right. Yeah. And who's got a vested interest in keeping that money flowing? Yeah. And that's where it gets scary. Right. That's what I'm looking into. And I don't want to tip my hand too much. But I think I've got pretty convincing evidence that the US Department of Justice, this has been used by the US State Department to further US foreign policy interests in Ukraine in ways that aren't really right.

1:14:39Like bringing, either bringing criminal charges against people in the US, but like Ukrainians, like charging them with crimes in the US, including some people that have never even set foot in the United States, charging with crimes or getting them out of trouble, like dropping criminal charges against them to sort of like, and again, it goes back to like our designating You're a good guy. You're a bad guy. You're corrupt. You're not. You're both just grabbing, you know, billions with both hands So it's so fucking scary time, man. It really is It's wild to me that Zelensky is the president too You have essentially a comedian who played president on television show They're like we like you if they held if they held an election today He he would not he would not be Be reluctant no no no but then they support him It's interesting.

1:15:30It's like you asked them to you support the president say yes like we're at war Would you vote for him? No? What was their opposition? I? Think they's mismanaging the war You know and also I think they suspect that he's corrupt Yeah, and I think he probably is But that doesn't but the fact that look the fact that 50 cents of every dollar that we send there you know This isn't actually how it goes down, but even if that was the case, it's going into somebody's pocket doesn't mean that we can just turn Ukraine over to Russia in my opinion. I think that we should be backing them full on militarily, not with US troops, but giving them what they need to fight.

1:16:10Because I talked to a lot of special forces guys over there. They're basically like those Russian human waves of tax were just like moan these guys. It's not even really combat. We're just mowing these guys down until we run out of bullets and then we have to retreat. You know, those are the battles. That's what Putin's able to do. Because he's got so many guys and he's also letting people out of jail. Yeah. Yeah. Letting people out of jail and giving them you serve and your time is yeah, your Sentences were sended well so people think of Russia and they think of Moscow and St. Petersburg But you look at that country on a map.

1:16:42It's fucking massive. There's so much territory east of the Earl mountains It's just a bunch of villages what we call flyover country, right? Well, he's often Putin is offering deals like sign up where it's like you know more money than they make in a year Per month a and then be if you're killed your family set up for life they can buy a house You know whatever yeah, so very attractive offers for these really poor people from rural Russia and then they're using them Just human cannon fodder 100 % 100 % It's just I just can't remember a time in my life where things had just seemed so unhinged No, no, I asked my parents about that too.

1:17:22I'm too, because my dad before we passed they were like, no, we don't remember even like watergate Vietnam era, you know, they weren't really old enough to remember the Great Depression, but even that was just sort of limited to the US I mean, I know they're global, you know effects of that ricochets of that, but Yeah, it's it's it feels it feels like it could Like it could go sideways on us in a hurry. Yeah, I know Yeah, it does. And then what does that look like? That's what's terrifying. What's terrifying is if you're willing to do, like let's say what Israel is doing in Gaza, if you're willing to almost eliminate a city, just bomb the fuck out of a city and kill who knows how many innocents.

1:18:10What are the numbers? It's 30 ,000. I don't know what the numbers are. What's the line that keeps you from dropping a nuke that kills 300 ,000? What's the line? Why do we have this idea that it won't accelerate to that when it has in the past? It's just because it only did once in Japan in 1945. Is that what it is? I agree with your assessment that danger 100%. That's another reason why I think that we have to help Ukraine stop Putin now because if he keeps going into Ukraine And then he he he invades a NATO country and we decide that we've got to go up against him Is there any evidence that he would do that that he would invade a NATO country?

1:18:57I don't think he'll stop you don't I think dude He's been in power for a long time for a leader of Russia I think that he I mean I watched that Tucker Carlson interview right now and That history lesson that he delivered at the beginning everyone was like, what the fuck is he talking about? And Tucker just looked baffled. I got it. I thought I actually thought I'm getting an insight into Putin's motivations and the way that he sees himself, which is a historic figure. He sees himself as someone who's gonna restore a Russian empire. He like spends all day in the halls of the Kremlin with like, you know, portraits of Ivan the terrible and Catherine the Great, right?

1:19:32And I think that he's seeing himself as not the leader of a, you know, a free country certainly, but someone who's going to restore a Russian empire. So no, I absolutely do not think he will stop with Ukraine. No way. So then if he doesn't, and then he invades a NATO country, and we go up against him, man, those documents leaked recently from Russia that was showing what their lines were for when they would start using, quote, quote, tactical nukes. And, you know, I think he'd do it. I think he'd do it. I don't think he will. What are the lines? Well, they were whatever. If they started to lose a certain percentage of troops, I can't recall the specifics, but they were like shockingly liberal when they would start to use tactical nukes on the battlefield in Europe.

1:20:21You know, like if they started to have certain percentages of battlefield losses, we're not in the current situation, but like as they go further into Ukraine or an war that came into Russian territory. So I just think you know, she's stopped a shit now the shit being Putin. Is it possible? I Think it is possible. I think it's possible to Essentially Let him have what's this jam. Oh, yeah criteria for a potential Nuka response range from an enemy Encouraging on Russian territory to more specific triggers such as destruction of 20 % of Russia's strategic ballistic missile Submarine missile submarines This is the first time we've seen documents like this reported in the public domain said Alexander Gubb how to say that?

1:21:06Gubb wave Yes, it's a good one. Director of Carnegie, Russia Eurasia Center in Berlin. They show that the operational threshold for using nuclear weapons is pretty low if the desire result can't be achieved through conventional means. Russia's tactical nuclear weapons which can be delivered by land or sea launched missiles from or from an aircraft are designed for limited battlefield use in Europe and Asia as opposed to the larger strategic weapons and tended to target US modern tactical warheads can still release significantly more energy than the weapons dropped on Nagasaki in Hiroshima in 1945.

1:21:45Although the files date back 10 years or more experts claim they remain relevant to current Russian military doctrine the documents were shown to the FT by Western sources.

1:22:00So to answer your question, I think that, you know, the territory that Putin has taken, and again, also we like, just like we didn't back them up after the security assurances that we gave, we the US gave Ukraine in 1994. 2014, right, there was that revolution in Ukraine. and in response Putin invaded Crimea with the little green man the guys that didn't have an insignia and the US State Department went to and Ukraine was gonna fight and the US State Department went to Kiev and was like whoa, whoa, whoa, chill out, chill out, just let him have Crimea. We'll make sure he stops there. That's not escalate things.

1:22:36Okay, so we gave him our word a second time and then we broke it. So to answer your question, I think that that territory that that Putin has seized my impression from talking with a lot of Ukrainians in recent weeks has been that they feel like Ukraine could still be Ukraine without that territory. Like the people, like basically you could have like a three week period where people could either move there if they want to be Russians or they can leave, if they want to be Ukrainians and then you could have a kind of a North Korea South Korea DMZ kind of situation. I think that's probably the best possible outcome right now.

1:23:11But even to do that, again, we've got to properly arm the Ukrainians so that they can stop Putin from moving further into their country and actually taking territory that they could not live without. So do you think ultimately he plans on taking all of Ukraine? Yes, 100%. I think he's 100%. I mean, he was, he was, it was, when I was in Kiev and I went to how close the fighting actually got to the capital city, it was shocking how close it was. Like that town, Buccia, where there was all those atrocities committed. I mean, there was this one. I saw this one auto, this like massive grave yards of like automobiles.

1:23:46And what happened was people were trying to get out of this town as the Russian troops, the Russian, because they invaded from Belarus, from the North and they came in and they're trying to go like lightning strike on Kiev. And they got within I think 10, 12 kilometers of the city. And then they got stopped because the guys started blowing bridges, special forces started or balloon bridges and hitting them with javelins and stuff, and they actually stopped them, like incredibly brave fighting. But there was this one just, like I came across this to just pile of just hundreds of blown up cars. And I asked the locals about it.

1:24:20And some of them have been like painted now with sunflowers and, you know, Slave of Ukraine, glory of glory of Ukraine, and artists are trying to make this less sort of macabre. But what it was was when the Russians invaded two years ago, So like hundreds of families piled in their cars and there was one road out of town, but it was a trap and the Russians cut it off on both sides and then methodically using tanks blew up these cars full of civilians. Just brutal shit. And I know there's still like brutal shit on all sides in all wars, but to see it first hand like that, you know, to talk to people that thought that happened was tough.

1:24:59So yeah. Yeah, what is it like going over there like leaving America and going over there to try I mean what was the craziest thing was You just you can just walk in it was like it was like it's harder to go into Tijuana than it is to go to Ukraine Like you just like I went in through I Came yeah, I came out. Yes. That's it. Wow. I went in I came out through Poland and I went in through Romania And I just like yeah Oh my god. Oh my god. So I flew to Bucharest and then drove about 10 hours of the border and then just walked across with my duffel bag in the US passport. It's really easy to get in.

1:25:45Just walked across. Yeah, walked right across. It was like five minutes. Did you have it set up already to talk to people? I did. I had set up security. I had a really good security. These guys are like special forces guys a tank hunting team actually that had just rotated off the front After fighting for two years and we're you know so basically like keeping me alive as a vacation For them but they were really and I got to be really good friends with this one dude Especially the guy that was like because they worked in different ways It was a team that like there was one guy. There's like attached to my hip.

1:26:16He was just with me 24 -7 Whose name was Andre and I got to be really good buddies with this guy just using like Google translate, you know Even when the interpreter wasn't around, just like really clicked with this guy. Anyway, but yeah, I did have it set up before I had an interpreter, you know, a driver and security. And then I had, you know, conversations that I'd lined up. But a lot of it was people had documents or people had information that the only way I was going to get these documents or that I have them tell me this information was to go to Ukraine. The only way they were going to, you know, trust it.

1:26:49Trust me. How much different was it than what you expected? Well, it's crazy. It's, I really, back to my new love for the Ukrainian people. In Kiev, like, or Levyv, which is a fantastic city. It's in Eastern Ukraine near the Polish border. You know, it's like you wouldn't, until the rockets and the Iranian, on Iranian drones start flying into the city, you wouldn't know anything was going on. People are out dressed nicely, going to dinner, going to bars, going to clubs, like they're out and about, you know? and then all of a sudden the air raid sirens go off. And there's this app that I jokingly texted my wife, I was like, this is the worst video game ever, because it's this app that shows you what's incoming, like what kind of missiles, and how many, and what kind of drones, and how many, and then as the air defense system shoot them down, they like blip off the screen, you know?

1:27:46So you can like see like this shit's coming your way and like how many of they're shooting down. It's like the worst version of missile command, because you can't actually do anything, right? But yet you're watching it. And real time. Yeah, yeah. God. And this is just an app you can get for your phone? Yeah, well the security guys had it. I don't know if anybody has an app on their phone that alerts them when there's incoming missiles or drones. And how do they know that that app has not been compromised? How do they know? Great question. I don't know. Great question. Is this an app that's, is it Windows or Android?

1:28:21You could, yes, you could get it on your phone right now. As a matter of fact, before I went to Ukraine, I downloaded it and installed it, and I thought it'd be geofenced. But it was like the middle of the night in New Mexico and all of a sudden it's like, air raid, air raid, missiles incoming, you know, like seek shelter. So if anybody wants to experience what it's like to be a Ukrainian right now, you can download this app. What is it called? Let's take a look. Is it available for all phone files? Yeah, anybody can get it. I may have taken it off actually, But I'm sure if you just like Google like Ukrainian you know air raid app.

1:28:53Did you take it up? Is your tart is seeing air raids? Yes. Yeah, I didn't want it that I didn't want it to sound anymore So I mean you can you can pick which parts of the country you want it to alert you to but yeah, I mean it was It was there was one day with that the security guys were like it's not safe to drive from where we were to keep tomorrow So that's a bad news because every night we would have a go -no -go kind of meeting for the next day and And that was one time that they were like, no go, no go, too much shit's going on, it's not safe to drive eight hours to keep. Good news is it's snowing in the Carpathian mountains, so we're gonna go skiing.

1:29:30And I was like, what? And so the next day we did, we like drove five hours out of the mountains, and there's this full on ski resort. And there's just people like the hundreds of families out skiing, and there's the fucking war going on. And it's in, it's like a day of a nationwide red alert, which means that like missiles were hitting all over. And so people are watching this app on their phone and you can see this stuff that's coming, you know, to the oblast, which is like a state, you know, that we're in. And as the stuff is being shot down, like people are like cheering from the chair lifts.

1:30:03Oh my God. Yeah. Oh my God. So I mean, it's just like that fucking, fuck you spirit that they have is, I think, impressive. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I have a friend from Israel and he's a kickboxing coach. My friend, Shouki, and when he was living in America, he lives in Israel now, but when he was living in America, I went over his house for dinner and him and his wife, they'd be playing the bongos and dancing and I'm like, you guys are like, you have so much spirit. Like you're so filled with fun. And he's like, my friend, when you live in Israel, he goes, every day, like you could die. Every day is party party.

1:30:44Have a good time. Enjoy your life. Yeah, and it's like the same kind of thing Unfortunately like post 9 -11 like you need something horrible to happen for you to appreciate the good And appreciate peace and appreciate joy Yeah, and that's what's that's a crazy thought is that the thing that's gonna cure what ails us is conflict and getting together and banding together to fight a common evil. Right. Which is just so bizarre. Or if we had like a war the world's kind of thing. We're like a hostile like alien race attacked earth. You meant when Ronald Reagan said that to the UN? Yeah. Yeah. It's like the UFO fanatics favorite speech.

1:31:27When Ronald Reagan said if we were faced with a hostile threat from an alien world, how could we we would put aside our differences? Yeah. That's That's one of the things that astronauts always talk about when they go to the space station. So you look down on the earth and you go, my God, what are we doing? How are we in conflict with each other over lines in the dirt, imaginary lines in the dirt that we create for what? Like, who's doing this and why are we doing this? We should all be together. We're this one species that can communicate with each other, attach this ball that's hurling through infinity.

1:32:01And yet our territorial primate instincts have us engaged in this insane conflict that no one thinks is ever going to end. If you asked anyone today, can you achieve in our lifetime no war? Most people will say that's not possible. Which is so strange. And tragic. Well it's also so crazy because it's a function of human beings in large numbers, right? because like if we were in this room together and he said could you imagine all three of us get along? Of course. Easily. I couldn't imagine it's not getting along. We can talk. We'll figure things out. We have resources. Yeah, we'll be fine. Make it three million people.

1:32:44Make it 30 million. Make it 300 million. Now you got problems. Right. And it's just... And it seems to be always the same thing that you see when you have a cult. You have leaders and the leaders don't necessarily have the best intentions for everyone. They have the best intentions for themselves and for the people that are providing them with money. And this is the trap that we're all stuck in. Everyone on Earth, all of us, being led by groups that decide that they're in control of these massive numbers of people, and they want control of the resources of these other territories and they want to do something to those people and they'll have people convinced this is your enemy You have to go kill them People that you've never met you have no issue with you don't know anything about them You've literally never seen them before you might not ever see them even when you're killing them and This is the thing that we don't believe could ever be stopped in our lifetime, which is Insane if you if you really start to think about it that way it sounds so insane Like if you were approached by an alien life form that said, what is this source of all this murder and killing and destruction?

1:34:04Like what is this? It's like we're being led, we're a group, and we're being led by the people that are in charge of this group that are very secretive and that are being influenced by massive amounts of money and the military industrial complex, and they've got everyone convinced that you have to divert all of our resources into attacking this other group that is opposed to our way of life. They hate us for our freedom, whatever the fuck it is. And this is what we have to do now. They would be like, what is wrong with you fucking people? Like what a bizarre, wounded, tainted species that you think like this.

1:34:42And not not just think like this, but think it's impossible to imagine this not existing. This the most insane adventure that human beings can ever engage in and you think it's impossible for that to not be the case. Yeah, but almost all logical people if you ask them is could you imagine no war in your lifetime? No, no, no, no, no, I mean, I just turned 53 and I think that like When I was a young man, I had a lot more optimism, right? And I don't think it was just a function of like we grow and be in young in the 90s I think was like the best. It was like the time of peace and prosperity. Yeah.

1:35:20And it seemed like we could get to Star Trek, right? I think like we could maybe get there, right? Even Star Trek. Cold word and clings on. Yeah, well, you got to fight somebody. That is that. Why? It seems so crazy. I wonder if, I mean, this is really weird. But I wonder if that's where AI is leading us. I really genuinely do. I wonder if the limitations of our primate architecture will not allow us to escape this never -ending cycle of war. That may be the only thing that will would be an intelligence that far exceeds our own and doesn't have the same limitations, motivations, human reward systems, all the things that hold us in these patterns and that an artificial intelligence that is far superior to what we're capable of generating with our monkey minds, the only thing that prevents us.

1:36:21Well back to DMT, I think that intelligence is already out there. We don't have to build it with computers in the other ear on earth. You know, and DMT is one conduit to it. Mushrooms or another, medications or another. It's just a willingness to set aside the petty shit. Which is also why a lot of people believe those things are illegal. You know, 100%. I mean, if you have everybody realizing that we're all one united, we kind of make sure. No money in that. Yeah, there's no money in that. Well, maybe the problem is money in general, like the concept of money. You know, and I'm not a proponent of socialism because socialism always leads to communism and as in which leads to military dictatorships that are dictating whether or not you can do this or that.

1:37:04And there's always groups of people that have massive resources, and they keep everybody else subjugated. And that's, it's anybody to think that socialism and communism is the future. They're, show me where it works, ever. It's still human beings. It's just like whether it's cults or militaries or anything. So there's human beings that have immense power that is unimaginable to the common person. right? Dictating what the common people can and can't do and the only way to enforce that is with force and with With killing. It's the only way with jailing people killing people fear It's the only way to get people to listen to you and to do what you want them to do and I wonder if what we're doing with artificial intelligence is creating I Think we're I think we're gonna merge.

1:37:54That's what I think is going to happen I'm sure you've already seen this guy who they, the first neural ink patient, have you seen this? Yeah. So this first guy who's paralyzed with neural ink, he's now able to use a computer and he can move curses around with his mind and he can play video games with his mind and he's been doing this and he talks about it and it's like this is incredible. This is amazing. And this is essentially the model T of, you know, this sort of human computer interface, biological interface, something that goes into your mind, into the brain itself, and connects with it and allows you to use things.

1:38:35I get why that would help a dude like in his situation, but do you have any concerns about that, like, large scale? Of course. Yeah. Yeah, my concerns with everything that involves human beings. Because I don't think there's ever been a thing that involves human beings that doesn't get co -opted and corrupted. There's always something, someone comes along that uses it and has power. And that's the scariest thing about someone achieving some sort of artificial general intelligence, some sort of super intelligence, especially something that's sentient and can figure out what we're doing wrong and also figure out what was done wrong to code it and make a better version of itself.

1:39:16And I think it's going to lead to a new life form. I'm almost positive of that. That's what all this stuff is doing. It's going to achieve. I mean, have you ever seen the head of Google where he was talking about how their AI has done things that they didn't expect? Like it learned a language, like instantaneous thing, that it wasn't programmed in and can translate that language now and communicating in that language and they don't know how it did it. Well hey guys, hit the fucking brakes. Like, what do you do? You don't know what it's doing and you're just gonna keep feeding it? Okay, where do you think that goes?

1:39:55It's gonna be better than us at everything and it's gonna realize that we're the cause of pollution, we're the cause of war, we're the cause of theft and rape and fraud and destruction and control of resources. It's all human beings. Like we are the problem that we're trying to solve. If we're trying to solve that problem by creating something that won't have those problems, it just logically seems to me that that thing is going to realize that we're the issue. Part of me shares that fear. Part of me feels like a drowning man, like, you know, maybe AIs the light preserver. Part of me thinks that it's just going to be like the metaverse or the Google glasses or whatever.

1:40:35It's just going to be like a passing fad. But oh, I don't think that. I don't think that at all. I think it's inevitable. I think we are. I've compared us to a caterpillar that we're a caterpillar that's building a cocoon. We don't even know why. Caterpillars, they don't know. I'm going to become a butterfly. That's going to be awesome. No, we don't know why. We're doing all this. Why are we so thirsty for innovation? Why are we so attached to wanting the newest, latest, greatest technology? It almost seems like that motivation is tied into the creation of artificial intelligence that if you looked at us, I always say that if you looked at us from above, if you were some other species that came and you were looking at human beings, you would say, well, what does this thing do?

1:41:19Like what does this species do? Well, the main thing it does, if you, you know, you look at all the there's all the wonderful things that art, the music, all the wonderful things that it does for itself, food and the culture and all these interesting things. But what is the species overall do? What creates things and it creates better things, constantly. It's in a cycle of constant innovation. And a lot of that innovation, almost all of it is tied to technology and artificial intelligence. And so where does that go? Well, that goes to another life form. It creates a thing. It creates an artificially intelligent.

1:41:58And artificial is not a good word either. Because I think it's digital intelligence. I don't think it's artificial intelligence. I think it's a computing based intelligence That's far superior to the biological based intelligence and so my hope for us because I am one of us My hope is that we merge my fear is that it supersedes us my my fears that it surpasses us in every way and That it just gives us something that placates us that it controls us. Yeah gives us something Well, instead of killing us off, all you'd have to do is stop us from breeding. That's not hard to do. We're kind of doing that to ourselves.

1:42:37I mean, population level is in terms of viability. They've dropped substantially over the last few decades. Whether it's because of microplastics in our food that have diminished our reproductive cycles. If you look at the number of births in developing countries, what happens? how many women are having miscarriages, how many women are infertile, the numbers keep going up and up and up. It seems like there's a current trend because of what we have done with our environment, what we have done with our food supply, what we have done with medicine, and pharmaceutical drugs that's leading us to be less and less viable.

1:43:19And all you have to do is step in and provide human beings with something that gives them incentive to no longer breed. especially if it makes it very attractive to no longer. And keep them entertained. Keep them entertained no longer breed. Provide them with robot sex dolls that are far superior to human beings. You know, someone who really gets them, this really gets them. Or you just have a biological woman, he yells at you. I mean, it's, you could clearly see how if you were a super intelligent species, a super intelligent thing that looked at us and said, well, what's the best way other than mass destruction of stopping these things from ruining the world?

1:44:02We'll just stop them from breeding. Just make these the last ones. Just severely limit the amount of reproduction that takes place. That would do it. That drowning man looking for a life -resistant recited me kind of hopes that artificial intelligence or digital intelligence, I like that, by the way. Yeah, I think that's what it is. Digital intelligence, you know, that it could be that that, again, back to DMT, I felt that that that sentient force, God, whatever you want to call it, was benign, was basically on my side. I'd like to think that perhaps that technology is being provided to us, that there is a bigger plan that we're just not dialed into, or that maybe it's a way to try and dial into that plan.

1:44:49I just want us to get to Star Trek, man. I just want to be I think I think that the the the goal I think the intent first species is to get off the rock and explore space and piece together Well, that would certainly be wonderful. Yeah. Yeah That would be certainly preferable to destroying ourselves What do you think is happening with all this UFO UAP stuff? Do you ever think about that? Yeah, I've looked into look to know the doc on that like several times could never quite you know get beyond What's already publicly available? I just think it's, the government's covering something up for sure.

1:45:26For sure, you know. What do you think they're covering up things that they've invented? I think that's probably the most, again, I would like to believe what they're covering, what I want to believe, in the same way that I want to believe in the Stone -Daped Theory, because I mean, it's fucking cool, because I want to believe that they're covering up contact with species from outer space, other intelligent life. What I suspect is really going on is that they're covering up shit that they're making that maybe has slipped the leash You know or or that they or that for whatever reason they're just trying to like keep completely secret the stuff that has a Manoeuvrability they can't be explained.

1:46:01Yeah, that's my thought too. I think both things though I think we're probably being visited as well and I think we might be being visited by something that is us from the future I I think and might not even be us from the future, but being what happens when a species like us gets involved in digital intelligence and creates something that transcends the biological limitations, and then you have these things. Like to me, one of the things that's very bizarre is the archetype, the archetype gray alien, which is this big headed thing with no muscle, knows, genitals, and it seems very humanoid in a way, which doesn't necessarily make sense if you're dealing with different environments and we think about it, the massive variety of species that exist on the planet that we're aware of.

1:46:58There's only one human. There's only one bipedal hominid. That's it. It's us. Right? Why is this thing so much like us? This shitty design of walking around on two people. Why can't it fly? Why does it have these spindly bodies? Well, human beings, as we're evolving, one of the things that's very clear is that we're becoming less physical. We're weaker and softer than previous generations of humans that we can observe. You look at our testosterone levels compared to men from the 1950s, we're far lower on average. And if you go way back and you look at Australia, Pithicus and even Neanderthal, I mean, this This is just super powerful physical specimens.

1:47:43There were definitely, Neanderthal was like this, 5 '7, 200 pound behemoth of a creature that was, you know, if you have a Neanderthal competing in the UFC, it would smash everybody. Their bones are bigger, they're far more powerful. If you keep going in that direction, what do you get to? You get to this thing that has almost no muscle. This thing that like it just has the need the ability to move around. It's probably communicating telepathically. It's probably using its telepathic energy to control those devices, those ships. That's one of the things that Bob Lazar said Went and again the Bob Lazar story is Who knows right?

1:48:24I love to believe the Bob Lazar story. I had him on the podcast. I talked to him for three hours. I had dinner with him He doesn't seem like a guy who's lying right and one of the more bizarre are aspects of his story, is how many of the things that he talked about now we know are true. You know, in terms of the technology, in terms of what people have seen, 3D printing, there's all these different things, like the ship that he went into, there's no seams. He's like, it's all like, as if it's made out of one piece of something, which is 3D printing. I mean, that's what we're doing now, and that there's no instrumentation, and that somehow and other these things are integrated somehow with their minds or with something, with where it's allowing them to pilot these things without digital instrumentation and buttons and switches.

1:49:14They're using some other wet method to control these things and that's what he was supposedly brought in to try to back engineer to say what is this, how does it work? And he talked about the limitations of having science try to be practiced in a vacuum. And he was like the metallurgists did not have contact with propulsion's experts, the propulsion's experts, did not have contact with other groups that were studying these things. Everybody was very secretive and everybody was very isolated. And he's like, that's not how science works. And that's one of the reasons why they can never figure out how these things work.

1:49:49that you need to open this up to the global scientific community and have everybody examine these things and look at it. But the problem is the military applications. Like if you have something that can essentially use some new element and use this new element that's bombarded with radiation that allows you to manipulate gravity and move at insane speeds almost instantaneously to anywhere in the universe. You can't give that to the Chinese. You can't have someone else get a hold of it before us. You can't have someone steal these techniques or these technologies. So what do you do? If you have this thing, if this thing has really been donated, which is like what a lot of these people that work on them, they call them donations.

1:50:34If you really have these things, what do you do? How do you figure that out? I don't know. But if we have been doing this since the 1980s, which is Lazar said it's been around far along than that. But when he was working on them was the 1980s You could imagine that by now we might have figured out a way to get a drone going that uses these technologies And that these drones can appear and disappear they can fly and then same rates of speed they can hover stationary at 120 knot winds like they've observed. Yeah, you can imagine that that's ours. I saw the Phoenix lights You didn't really yeah, you were there.

1:51:11Yeah, I saw Whoa! Different people saw different things. What I saw was something the size of an imperial star destroyer from Star Wars that was at a relatively low altitude moving over Phoenix. My housemate was like, I mean, this is before we had phones, right? Before we had cameras. So this is like, we had a flip phone of anything. And he was like, dude, you gotta get out here. And I came out the front yard of our house in Tempe and we just watched this thing move across the sky. And it was like, what the fuck, man? I mean, I believe in reincarnation because I came back from D &T thinking that I had a first -hand experience.

1:51:48I believe that there was something inexplicable in the sky over Phoenix that night because I fucking saw it. Okay, and it was massive and it was quiet. And then it was just gone. So what did it look like? It looked like a massive craft, not shaped like an Imperial Star Destroyer, but of that scale, there was more sort of like tubular shaped. And you could see more like, yeah, more like a tube. And you could see variations in it. It wasn't like totally smooth. And you could see by the way that it was like blocking out the stars that you could see that there were like apparatus on it of some kind.

1:52:32And I always thought that it was just, it was a military, it was a military aircraft where they had, they thought they had a cloaking device. See now that's what other people saw was these smaller things on the same night That we're explaining away as being some sort of military flares or weather balloons or some shit. That's that's not what I saw On the same night, but I'm not the only one that saw this larger scale craft So I always thought like man that could be a military ship. They thought they had some sort of cloaking device that fucked up It fritzed out because that's kind of what it looked like I could see it and then I couldn't you know So it looked like a tube and did it have our big, when you're talking about like several football fields?

1:53:12Yes, yes, yeah. And how many football fields? I would say like the size of a battleship. Okay, huge, not an aircraft carrier, but the size of a battleship. Like I would say is three. What's bigger, aircraft carrier battleship? The battleship I think is bigger. It's a destroyer, whatever smaller than aircraft carrier. Whatever the ship is, whatever the ship is, that smaller than aircraft carrier. So not as big as an aircraft carrier. Not as big as an aircraft carrier. What is a battleship? See, they're a battleship or destroyer, whatever that next one is. I would say three football fields at least.

1:53:42It was huge. You could not miss it. And how high do you think it was above you? No more than 1 ,000 feet. Whoa. Yeah, no more as low altitude. It was like right over, right over 10 feet. I'm not the only one that, no. I'm not the only one that saw it. No, no, no, many, many people saw it. Yeah. Yeah, I actually went on the record with the newspaper I worked for right away because they were immediately dismissing those smaller lights that we just saw as whatever the explanation was. And I was like, there was something else in the sky that night too. So, I loved to gamble if I had to make a bet.

1:54:18I would still say it's human military technology that frits out. Wow. But many people said they saw something that looked like a triangle. No, this is not a triangle. So maybe there was more than one of these things. That was totally possible. Yeah. You remember when the governor did that press conference and came out with a guy in an alien suit and made a mockery of the whole thing? Which is what their tactic has been. But then that same governor came back after he left office and talked about it. Yeah, and said that he saw something and admitted it. Yeah What's the governor's name? 5 Simington 5 Simington see if you could find a Audio of a video of 5 Simington saying what he actually saw on witnessing the female Phoenix lights I think later he talked about it Well unlike 5 Simerton I was stoned, but I still know what I saw I still know what I saw.

1:55:20And what's interesting is when he's trying to describe the shape, and he puts it at a bigger size than I have it in my memory, I do remember talking with my friend, it was hard to describe what we just saw. It was like we didn't have a reference. It's like we're trying to, let's see if I can I get a turkey like this. We're trying to find reference points for something that really doesn't have one. Right, I guess. It kind of estimate the size, But it just it had it was it was unlike anything I'd ever seen before have you ever heard people describe what the Native Americans Must have seen when those boats started showing up.

1:55:55No, they'd never seen anything that large That it probably blew them away, you know, you see the Pinta and the Santa Maria and these massive boats from Europe That you know, they were like what the fuck is that? Well, let's hope that the beings aboard the craft is that's what they are. Had better intentions than the people and those boats. Yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy that you actually saw it. Yeah. Wow. And you said it just disappeared? Yes. It wasn't like whoop or anything. There was no noise. It was just it was there. And there were some lights. Like you said, I remember there was some lights that were not stars that were part of this craft.

1:56:38Can you describe what those lights look like? No, they were not colored. They were white or off white. Because I remember thinking like, are those stars? I was trying to actually see what is the shape and what is stars. That's how it was gauging how big it was. And I was like, no, those are attached to this thing. And then it was just, I just couldn't see anymore. It was like the Northern Lights. I'm from Alaska, right? So it was like the Northern Lights they're there. And then they're not there. It was just like this ghostly thing and then then they're gone and it was like that There's it was there it was moving at a slow speed You know from my left to right and then it was just I couldn't see it anymore and but it was like 20 seconds at least It wasn't like a glimpse of this thing.

1:57:19It was yeah, and how many lights? Half a dozen yeah Yeah, somewhere around there. Yeah. I know people said that they saw triangle. So then for a while they were saying that's why he was probably talking about the B2 bomber or the stealth bomber because they're kind of triangular. It was way bigger than one of those. And it was not that shape at all. I struggled to come up with what shape it was because it's a shape that I haven't really seen before. So. Wow. And what was your initial thought that that's an alien spacecraft? No, my initial thought was not an alien spacecraft. It was basically initial thought, which is like, what the fuck is that?

1:58:00And then once I talked about it, that same sort of like want to believe, actually believe thing we talked about several times today. I want to believe it was an alien spacecraft. I believe it was probably, you know, US military technology going to rye. Really? Do you think they have the capability to do that in the 1990s? Because what was the Phoenix lights? Yeah, it was mid 1990s. I think it was 96. makes my been 97, I'm not sure. As more time has gone on though, you're asking me what I thought in the moment. As more time has gone on, I've like the needles moved towards, maybe that was actually an extra terrestrial craft.

1:58:37Yeah. Because there's so much has come out like especially in the last five years, because you know as you've talked about here. Yeah. So, it's just so strange that it all occurred in this one area, it is one night. Right. it. That has to be a real paradigm shifting moment for you. Listen, well yeah, well, I think I was, I got so caught up in the like the government's trying to cover up its own fuck up, you know, like they're putting up and then there was the like there was the smaller lights thing and the weather balloon, you know, but I did, I went on the record with the Phoenix New Times. I got there's a guy named Tony Ortega there that wrote a piece about right away and I went on the record because I was like maybe one of the last you know I wasn't not the UFO enthusiast type right right in the community I was a fairly well -known writer in the greater Phoenix Metro at that time and not someone that would be normally associated with like being a quote unquote UFO crazy so I went on the record with the article which was running it was like yes I saw this no fucking way it was weather balloon or a flare or whatever they're saying It was massive.

1:59:42So, man, what I would give to see something like that. But you know, to your point about, like, looking at how people about the technology and maybe just being kept quiet because of the military applications, like, look at how people freaked out when that leaked about this new Russian space weapon, right, a couple weeks back, or three weeks back, whatever. It's like an ability to disrupt satellite communications in space, like Russia, like, somehow leaked, maybe deliberately out of Russia, that they got this tech far more advanced technology than we thought they had to a weapon that would be in space that could disrupt communications and satellites and really fuck us up.

2:00:24And like it was leaked and then there was this one congressman that went public with it, it was like we have a real problem, right? This is like three, as well as in Ukraine, so it was maybe three weeks ago. But imagine if it was something like on the scale of like a ship, a weaponized ship that could be cloaked like that or some of the technology, or if we did have, as you said, this donated technology that's from an extraterrestrial intelligence that the U .S. has been figuring out applications for. You'd have to keep that on lock. Because what if that leaked right now? What do you think Putin would do?

2:00:56You know? Really fucking knows what he would do. If all of a sudden that leaked that we had these military capabilities that are far beyond what he thinks we have. That's my thought about these things that they keep seeing because they always see them in areas where they do military tests. The TickTack was off the coast of San Diego, which is where all the military bases are, and the things that Ryan Long had seen were all off the east coast in restricted airspace in space where they run fighter jet training and he said when they upgraded their technology in 2014, they upgraded their sensors. And he said that's when we started seeing these things constantly all the time.

2:01:40And they were getting visuals. They were seeing visual versions of these things and that was a square with us. It was a square in a square or a square in a sphere. Do you remember? Square in a sphere. Square in a sphere. So there's like this circular sphere and this black square that exists in this thing and it's hovering and It's hovering in in very high speed winds and it's just station stationery motionless and that these things are able to move it just bizarre rates of speed with no indication of a traditional propulsion system. Yeah, no heat signature that shows that you know, you know rocket propulsion nothing, nothing that we can explain.

2:02:24And if they had a drone that could do that, that's where they would test those things. And what better way to test whether or not people could see them, then to run them out there when people are using new jets with new capabilities. Right. Can you see them? Okay, they see them. And the fact that, you know, the TickTack when Commander David Fraver brought this information and reported it and they showed the videos to these admirals and they were non -plussed. They were like, okay, they just left the room. Like, do they fucking know? How are they not, are they just like stone -cold dudes who could just keep it together in the face of some alien technology?

2:03:07They know that we were being visited or is this, and the other thing was that when he, when these guys who are running these sensors, they're running the detection systems, they're saying we're seeing these things all the time, every couple of weeks, we're seeing them all over the place. Well, what the fuck is that? And this is also 2004. Did they have the ability of 2004, something to go from above 50 ,000 feet above sea level to 50 feet in less than a second? What is that? Like what the fuck is that? And people try to, you know, argue it away or explain it away by saying, oh, it's a failure of the detection systems and the glitch and the, yeah, but visuals, they have more than one fighter jet is seen it.

2:03:57They have video of this thing moving at a speed that would turn human beings into jelly. Like if there's a biological entity inside that thing and experiences that G -Force, you're talking about some fucking insane G -Force. like thirteen hundred times what a human being can tolerate and just gone silent no visual means of a pulshit no no windows no what is that is that a drone what is that and the witnesses have been reliable to like i love it for a yeah i've been suspected that like the last twenty years especially in the last five it feels like the witnesses the guys coming forward saying look i know what i saw are more the ones that are socially with the government even commercial airline pilots will be on the FAA, but especially military pilots, you know, they're being allowed to speak, that it feels like the waters are being tested by the government for some reason.

2:04:47Like, we're going to let this out a little bit. We're going to let the people, actually, people may actually believe, like a test to what they saw and see how the public reacts. That's why things go on. Well, that would be what I would do if I was running the government if I wanted to hide the fact that we have these things. I would say that these are off -world crafts. That's what I would say. I would say, look, these things are behaving in a way that we can't explain. Well, I guess we're being visited. And then go right back to whatever black ops thing that you guys are doing, some Raytheon project.

2:05:19I mean, I don't know what it is, but I go back and forth all the time, whether I think it's from another planet, another galaxy, another dimension, or whether I, or not, I think it's us. Or many people think that they've always been here. And you know, when you talked about the Vedas, in the Vedas they talk about these things. They talk about that, I mean, it's in the Bhagavad Gita. It's in the ancient Hindu texts. They talk about these Vimanas, these crafts that whatever these beings operate. So in that case, we're just getting better at detecting them or are they showing themselves more often?

2:05:58Well, in unique circumstances, if someone sees something like this, like you, So you see this in 1990, whatever it is in Phoenix. If you lived 5 ,000 years ago and you see this, like what is that sound like? What does that sound like to everybody? Sounds like you're out of your fucking mind. And a small handful of people say it, they tell stories, people write it down, just goes away. You need experiences. They're very difficult to classify. You know, if you have an experience with a ghost, the ghost shows up in this room and we all see it, and it doesn't show up on camera, and we swear. We saw an apparition of fucking forest gump standing there.

2:06:36You're like, what the fuck is that? Well, you're just left with a story. You know, if you can't measure it, you can't write it down, you can't even a video of it. Like what are you seeing? You see grainy footage of something, you know, you see I'm sure you've seen these supposedly leaked images that fighter pilots have taken with cell phones from their aircraft. So like what are they saying? What is that thing? What is that weird blurry looking metallic looking thing? Is that a mylar balloon that they're Mistaking for a spacecraft that doesn't seem likely seems like they're a lot fucking smarter than that They're not gonna think a child's birthday balloon that's floating around at 20 ,000 feet is an aircraft They're probably gonna realize it's a balloon.

2:07:20They probably seem balloons, you know, yeah, I don't know In those videos too is the commentary that kind of sells it like look at the thing move over what it is Like the Go Fast video. Look at it go, Jesus Christ. And these guys are trained pilots. They're used to seeing things. And they're seeing something that rotates. This is the other thing about the crap that cone sides with what Bob Lazar said. It's moving like this and it turns sideways. And Lazar said that's what it did, that it would direct its generator, whatever that gravity generator is. It would direct that towards the way that it wanted to go.

2:07:55So it literally turned sideways to move forward. I mean Kenneth Arnold was talking about these things in the 1950s. So for sure in the 1950s we didn't have the capability to make something like that. Something with no visible means of propulsion that's shaped like a saucer that fly silently through the air and moves at a speed and has capabilities in terms of maneuverability that far exceeds a jet that we had back then. What does that mean? What is that? I mean they were seeing these things when they had we had propeller planes, you know, what is that? I don't know, but part of me feels stupid for even talking about it.

2:08:32You know what I mean? It's like why are you wasting all your energy? You have so many things you have to do. Because it's fascinating. It is fascinating. But it's also it makes you feel like a fool. And I think that's part of the strategy of all this stuff. Well ridiculing people that have talked about UFOs has been part of the government strategy from the jump. For sure, that's a project blue book. That's been documented. Right. So, but the thing on the military installations, of course, the two theories are one is that there's some sort of extra terrestrial intelligence that's drawn to our military activity, but what seems like the more rational explanation is, as you said, that's where they test this shit.

2:09:06Sure. Or, you know, if I was an intelligence species that's willing to donate these crafts like they claim that they kind of let these things land or crash, and then they'll do it in a very strategic way, where they know that the military will be able to corden off the area and isolate and stop people from talking about it. And the idea that people in the military aren't able to keep secrets, so that's nonsense. They're really good at keeping secrets. They can keep secrets, especially high -level people. Look, if I had access, like if, if not Joe Biden, he's too far gone. But if Obama called me and like during his administration he said, you wanna see some shit?

2:09:48And I'd be like, I wanna see some shit and he said, don't tell anybody. I'm like, I won't tell anybody. Maybe I tell my wife. Maybe I tell one of my friends. But I wouldn't fucking go public and tell everybody if they're willing to show me this shit. No one's gonna believe me anyway, right? And so I'm like, what good does it do? If I make myself look like a moron a B I now I can't have access to it anymore because I told them Because I told people about it because now they can't trust me. I shut the fuck up Especially if I was in the military. I would shut the fuck up show me, you know, you ever heard the story There's a it's a widely disputed story, but that Jackie Gleason and Nixon were drinking one day And Nixon was like you want to see some shit and Nixon took Jackie Gleason to one of the Air Force bases and showed him this UFO.

2:10:40And Jackie Gleason was a UFO fanatic, I don't know if you know this, but Jackie Gleason actually had a home built in upstate New York that looked like a UFO and he had this home built after the supposed experience. Yeah, show the images of the home. This is the home that Jackie Gleason had built.

2:11:01I mean, what the fuck? Look at the outside of it though, not that one. That one's kind of just a cool circular one, but that image. Like what the fuck are you doing Jackie? Why you make it a UFO house in upstate New York? It seems a little odd. Take that image. Look at that. I mean, come on man. What the fuck is that? It looks kind of like a sci -fi movie prop though, you know? It looks like like a cliche of a UFO. Right. But that's apparently, this is the folklore. Yeah, that's what he saw and so he's like, I don't know, Bill the fucking house looks like that, you know, it's fun, it's fun, but it also has this feeling of futility.

2:11:44It's like a huge tile thing, like why are we even talking about it? It's nonsense, it's fascinating, but it just seems like, it's almost seems like you're never gonna know. You know? I think we talk about it because it gives us hope, frankly. Yeah, we want to believe it's true. Well, we certainly want to believe the stories that they hover over military bases and shut down nuclear weapons and You know my my comic club is called the comedy mothership and you walk into the comic club. There's a gigantic Artificial UFO that we had built so when you walk into it like as you walk in the front door this is big Construction of a UFO that other beam that comes down and we use it as a projector to show who's coming soon on the big screen, but I named the rooms Fat Man and Little Boy because those are the bombs that we dropped and right after we dropped those bombs, that's when all the UFO activity happened.

2:12:43That's like there's a giant uptick in UFO activity after 1945 and in the UFO folklore it's like they realized that we have the ability to drop nukes and so then they started visiting and then they started shutting down nuclear weapons at bases and making their presence known at these military bases. So hey, keep it together bitches. Like we're watching. We don't want you to nuke this whole planet and ruin our little program. And then our program is an accelerated engineering program that we've accelerated the evolution of human beings through some sort of intervention and that this is why we're so different.

2:13:21This is not the stone theory, it's the humans are engineered by some superior life form to try to accelerate our evolution and bring us to this place and that they've helped us along the way. But we're autonomous and we're allowed to do what we want to do and so we do, discussing crazy shit, like drop nuclear bombs from propeller planes by the way, right? propeller planes on cities and that once they did that they're like okay slow the fuck down we're here now whether they've always been here like in you know the Vedic texts or even in the Bible in the Ezekiel's description of the wheel within a wheel and have you read that description pull up Ezekiel's description of what he saw this is one of the favorite descriptions from the Bible from the Old Testament about UFOs that people love to bring up because Ezekiel has this thing that he describes and it's the most bizarre depiction.

2:14:31I looked, I saw an immense dust storm come from the North and immense cloud with lightning flashing from it, a huge ball of fire glowing like bronze within the fire were what looked like, four creatures vibrant with life. Each had the form of a human being, but each also had four faces and four wings. Their legs were as sturdy and straight as columns, but their feet were hoved like those of a calf and sparkled with the fire like burnish bronze. On all four sides, under their wings, they had human hands. All four had faces and wings, and the wings touching one another. They turned neither one way nor the other.

2:15:06They went straight forward. Their faces looked like this. in front of a human face on the right side, the face of a lion, on the left, the face of an ox, and in the back the face of an eagle, so much for the faces. The wings were spread out with the tips of one pair touching the creature on either side. The other pair of wings covered its body. Each creature went straight ahead, wherever the spirit went, they went. They didn't turn as they want. The four creatures looked like blazing fire or fiery torches. Tunges of fire shot back and forth between the creatures, and out of the fire, bolts of lightning.

2:15:41The creatures flashed back and forth like strikes of lightning. As I watched the four creatures, I saw something that looked like a wheel on the ground beside each of the four face creatures. This is what the wheels looked like. They were identical wheels, sparkling like diamonds in the sun. They looked like they were wheels within wheels, like a gyroscope. They went in any of the four directions they faced, but straight not veering off. the rims were immense. Circled with eyes. When the living creatures went, the wheels went. When the living creatures lifted off, the wheels lifted off. Wherever the mirror went, they went.

2:16:14The wheels sticking right with them. For the spirit of the living creature, creatures was in the wheels. The creatures went, the wheels went. When the creatures stopped, the wheels stopped. When the creatures lifted off, the wheels lifted off because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. Over the heads of the living creatures was something like a dome shimmering like the light like a sky full of cut glass vaulted over their heads. Under the dome one set of wings was extended towards the other with another set of wings covering their bodies. When they moved I heard their wings it was like the roar of a great waterfall like the voice of the strong god like the noise of a battlefield.

2:16:55When they stopped they folded their wings and then as they stood with folded wings there was a voice above the dome over their heads. Above the dome, there was something that looked like a throne. Sky blew like a sapphire with a human -like figure towering above the throne. From what I could see, from the waist up, he looked like burnish bronze and from the waist down like a blazing fire. Brightness everywhere. The way a rainbow springs out of a sky on a rainy day, that's what it was like. It turned out to be the glory of God. Like what the fuck, man? I mean to anybody that's done DMT or ayahuasca, it really tripped on psychedelics though, you read that and it feels sort of familiar.

2:17:40Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The glory of God. Yeah, the glory of God. And these visions of these beings. And the fact that these things are constantly changing their appearance. That's the thing about the DMT experience is like it's not a stationary static experience. It's like constantly changing and moving in front of you and to see something like that in the sky And the fact that it's so noteworthy that they wrote it down in the fucking Bible Maybe he found some of those mushrooms You know, yeah, maybe well, you know, that's there's a University in Israel I think is a University of Jerusalem that theorized that the Moses experience of the burning bush was a DMT experience.

2:18:25And that what this is like when you say, Moses saw the burning bush. Well, what kind of bush would burn that would give you a psychedelic experience? Well, the occasion tree, the occasion tree, which is very common to that area, is rich with DMT. And how do you, how do you psychoactively acquire DMT? You smoke it. So you're smoking this tree, this burning bush, and you're seeing God. And God has brought you 10 commandments of how to live life, which sounds like a lot of what you experience in the DMT experience. When you have that and you have these contact with the entities, they kind of give you guidelines of how to live.

2:19:03Yeah. It felt to me like a massive amount of information being downloaded, but that it was guiding in nature. Yeah. But very difficult to hold on to. Yeah. Like you're like, what is it? So like, it's probably something you'd want to write down. Yeah. Yeah. Like the 10 Commandments. Yeah. Yeah, well again back to the Christianism probably part that was his thing It was like you you can't hold on to it with psychedelics alone and you don't need psychedelics To get a hold of it in the first place what he was preaching and he probably recognized that The thing that the problem with taking psychedelics is that it's so accessible You just take it.

2:19:40I mean, it's the beautiful thing about it But it all you also could say without I could be a problem because then a bunch of people with no discipline would just start popping these things and having these experiences and having no sort of framework, no moral framework, no ethical framework, no understanding of what what are you experiencing and what to do with this stuff. No discipline. Right. But if you acquire it biologically, if you acquire it endogiously through discipline, then you you are on a path and through that path you can achieve this thing and you realize this is a very difficult thing to achieve and that you have to stay on this path in order to get this enlightenment.

2:20:20I could see how someone would say, no, listen, that's not the way. This is the way that you can do it with your own mind. You don't need these things. You know, Terence McKenna's thought on that, though? Very funny thought. He said it reminds me of an ancient story of this monk had acquired a city of levitation and practiced this. And it said to the Buddha when the Buddha came to town, you know, I've spent 20 years acquiring the city of levitation and I can I could walk across the water and The Buddha said yeah, but the fairies only a nickel

2:21:00So that was mechanics take on it. It's like why would you do all that stuff when you could just take the mushrooms but mechanic was You know, McKenna was a brilliant man. He wasn't some stone hippie in the middle of upstate New York to strip and balls on mushrooms. I think it has some, you know, it's helpful to have some sort of like processing after the experience, right? And I just keep like repeating it, trying to like back to that space. Also, McKenna was, you know, he was a proponent of taking psychedelic drugs. So he probably would want people to think that his way is the way. You know, he's only human.

2:21:35Right. Yeah, I don't know man, but it's all look just the fact that the the psychedelic experience is a real thing And when you do take that and you do have those experiences and you realize that it's a real thing and like how did I not know about this? How is the most profound thing that's ever happened to me something that is a schedule one drug? That's illegal for whatever reason that no one's explained to me accurately Nobody, no one's ever explained it in a way that makes sense. Why is a thing that doesn't kill anybody that exists in the human mind? That was the other thing the McKenna said about DMT.

2:22:13It's illegal, but everybody's holding. Right. Everybody has it. If you want to test people for DMT, well, everybody's guilty. Everybody. The most staunch, conservative, antidrugged person is right now has DMT in their body. All of them do. Everybody does. It's literally like testing people for blood. Yeah, you have blood, of course, you're alive. Yeah, you have DMT. You're alive. Yeah, but it's illegal. What? It doesn't make any sense. It sounds so insane. And also the fact that it's naturally occurring, not naturally just naturally occurring in the human mind, but naturally occurring in nature and that there seems to be some sort of mitigation strategy by the human body in order to keep you from tripping balls by consuming all the different plants that have DMT in it.

2:23:01And that's mono -Amean oxidase. So mono -Amean oxidase breaks it down in the gut. So if you consume like grasses, like philaris grass, it's very rich in DMT. If our human being consumed that, you're not gonna trip. Because the mono -Amean oxidase in the gut breaks it down. So the strategy that they came up with with ayahuasca was to combine these psychedelic plants, these plants that contain dimethyltrip to mean with other plants that contain harming, which is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor, and that the two of these together will allow an orally active version of dimethyl tripamine, which is what it is.

2:23:41You know what I really felt like once was enough. I know you have a different approach. But... I made me everybody's different. I mean, once was enough because it's so fucking scary, you don't want to do it again, I get it. But every time I've ever been troubled and have done it, I feel way better. I'm like D &T specifically. Yeah. I'm talking about D &T specifically. Yeah, every time I've ever done it, I'm like, the things I concentrate on are so stupid. Yeah. The things that worry me are so foolish. I find that with MDMA. I find MDMA to be very useful as a reset. Sure. But yeah. Yeah. It also makes you realize how insecure you are and how insecure most people are with interactions with each other.

2:24:24And when those barriers are down, how wild the experience is of just not having any fear of human interaction. That's something I only did once. And the problem that I had with it was after it was over, I felt so drained. But I didn't have any strategy for like taking some sort of a serotonin booster, like 5HTP, which is what people take that are like, They really know what they're doing with that stuff. They take 5HTP to boost up their serotonin while they're doing it. So that after it's over, they're not just crashed. Because the next day I was useless. I remember I was in a coffee shop the next day and I was trying to read a magazine.

2:25:03And I couldn't read. I couldn't concentrate. I literally couldn't read this magazine. I was like, oh my god, I'm so dumb. My brain feels like I felt the way I described it was like I had a dry sponge for a brain. It normally it's wet and filled with what now it's just like is this dopey dry sponge and was it worth it? Maybe but I had stuff to do that day right I had to show that night and this was after doing what? MDMA. Yeah, you're an E -tard right? E -tard 90s your E -tard Yeah, that's what the experience is You do need to do the serotonin booster that day is the key move, but I just think it's it's bordering You know, it's not bordering a criminal.

2:25:42It is fucking criminal that the government has kept MDMA therapy from like, especially guys coming back from these fucking wars in the Middle East, you know? Yeah. And I'll fuck up with PTSD. Because as somebody who has PTSD, not from combat, but from childhood trauma, MDMA is just, it's just like a godsend, literally, from the gods, the godsend. And that that that shit has been kept from, I mean, in maps, that organization maps has been doing fantastic research with it. And it seems like that, you know, it's, It's on the path to legalization now finally. You know, but there are so many guys that needed that so badly.

2:26:17And including the people that are making it illegal, unfortunately, that's the problem. It is that it's an experience that's being kept from us by people that haven't done it. Right. Right. Yeah. That was another quote that was attributed to McKenna. McKenna tried to attribute it to somebody else, but they said they didn't say it. But it was that LSD is something that causes severe psychotic experiences and people who haven't taken it. Nice. I might have paraphrased that, I think I did. But it's something along those lines. And we know for a fact that all that stuff was made illegal during the sweeping psychedelics act of 1970 that was designed to subvert the war movement and to subvert the civil rights movement and to go after the Black Panthers and all these different people that were disrupting the government's control over society and the best way to do that is to make all drugs illegal and then go after those people and just throw water on the whole party.

2:27:18It worked for decades and it like severely impacted art, specifically music. If you look at the music from the 60s all the way up to 1970 and then there's this confusion period of 1970 and then you look at the music of the 80s, like what the fuck happened everybody? What happened? How do you go from Hendrix? You know, to fucking whatever. You know, I don't want to make fun of any 80s bands, but hair bands. You know, like what happened there? What the fuck happened? How did it get so dumb? Everybody stopped shipping and started doing coke. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what happened. Yeah. And they just lost the plot for a little while.

2:28:00It seems like the plot's come back. And I think the plot has come back and I think you could kind of credit Lorenzo from psychedelics lawn with the distribution of all those old recordings of Alan Watts and McKenna and all those different psychedelic Bards that we're talking about these things that got people more curious and interested in them and then you know People realizing that we needed to do something for these soldiers that are coming back with PTSD and the psilocybin ceremonies in Ayahuasca and MDMA, which is being used by maps. Maps is done an amazing job. They really have. They've done it the right way where they're really promoting legalization in a very structured way.

2:28:44Yeah, it just feels like it's taken so long, but that's like what the government, that's the only way that the government is going to accept. It's like multiple research trials. And even then, I mean, it really takes people leaving office and dying off. It takes the old people going away the corrupt politicians that are in charge of Deciding what is and is not legal They have to vanish and that they slowly get phased out generation after generation and then the new people coming into play Some of them have military experience some of them know people that have been Really helped by MDMA therapy or Iowasca or many of the I began people that have like severe addictions to pills and And also it's different opiates.

2:29:26I began as one of the greatest things that's ever been discovered to help heal people from these problems.

2:29:36We're in so many weird competing factors are all happening all together. And they're all in this wild chaos that is the age of information. The age of information and technology that's allowing people to have access to these things but also realize how crazy the world we live in is. And then you have TikTok or people are, you know, just being distracted all day long and being confused. That's terrifying. Yeah, it's crack. I feel more hopeful now, Joe. Once we started talking about psychedelics again than it was when we were talking about war. Yeah. Well, psychedelics might be the only thing that prevents war.

2:30:14It might be the only thing that helps people. I mean, you can get large -scale use of psychedelic sanctioned and not just in America, but worldwide. I think it will have a tremendous impact on the way people view this experience because this is a small, tiny, finite experience that we're going through. It seems like it takes forever, but I mean, you're 53, I'm 56. It's like, Jesus man, we're more than halfway to the finish line and it's like it just happened. It's like a blip. And you're still, we're all, everyone, meeting included. We're all just trying to figure it out as we go along. and hopefully you're better than you were yesterday at it.

2:30:50And sometimes you're not, sometimes you fall down, sometimes you get back up and you climb a little higher this time and now you're better than you were a year ago, but boy, it's fucking confusing. You know, I went to college in University of California, Santa Cruz, there's no secret that Santa Cruz for a long time has been a center for psychedelics. And there's a guy there who, I think even if I could remember his name, I'm not gonna drop it, but he got busted for making acid. And I think it was around 9 -11. He had this massive underground LSD lab like out in the middle of the country. And it was a story that never really got picked up because everyone was distracted by him.

2:31:25That was the missile silo guy? Yeah, I think so. And his whole thing was like he was trying to make what he called planetary dose. That was his thing. I have to make enough acid for everyone on earth to take acid. It's the only thing that's going to save humanity. Wow. And I kind of get it. Yeah. At least I get the thinking. I get the thinking too, especially if you're really tripping. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Just get everybody fucked up. Yeah. There's people that have this theory that if you just dose the water supply in major cities, that people would be forced to trip. But you know, like what dose?

2:32:01I don't think that's probably a good idea. No, it's a terrible idea. No. So the correct idea is legalization and centers that are set up by ethical experts who really have experience in these things that can provide both counseling and medical services and allow people to do the correct dose safely under supervision and then counseling. It gives them some sort of a framework as to what to do with this, what is happened, and what this means and how you can apply this to your life. And if we could figure out how to do that in a structured way, we probably could help an enormous amount of people.

2:32:43Absolutely. The integration after the trip, right? Yeah. And that's taking back to Christian news, right? Because that's the series I have out. But legitimate comment, which is that that's what probably pod and that's what Christian consciousness in the sense was offering was integration of the psychedelic experience. Here's a framework for integrating everything you've been experiencing on acid and mescaline. Right. You know, whatever the hippie kids were into. Yeah, and they were, I mean, I think probably pod and the people that were legit were really trying to do that and they were really trying to spread this message.

2:33:17And if you think about what they were able to do during the 60s, you know, with the help of George Harrison, I mean, they opened up a lot of people's minds to these ideas and and probably changed a lot of lives and the directions of a lot of people's lives. For the better. For the better. Yeah. Listen man, I really appreciate your work. Sasquatch is incredible. And this Christian documentary is incredible too. You're really awesome. Thanks brother. Appreciate you. And if you do this Ukraine thing or if you ever do a UFO thing, whatever you do, come back. I love that again. Thank you very much.

2:33:52Oh so tell everybody it's available. It's on peacock. Christian is. Christian is on peacock. It's awesome. Thank you brother. Appreciate it. Bye everybody.