#2134 - Paul Stamets

28:03So it's a very, very broad landscape. So I'm not trying to be... I'm not dancing around the definitions, but I am very much restricted on what I'm able to say. I understand what you're saying. Yeah. I can say that these... A garricon and turkey tail supports the immune system. We have very good evidence for that. And I can say that in combination, based on the earlier evidence, and we need more studies, but this is a placebo double -blind controlled study, we can show that we reduce the adverse effects of the mRNA vaccines with this population that we've studied of 90 people, those who did not take a garricon and turkey tail had adverse consequences significantly less than those people who took a garricon and turkey tail did not have that adverse.

28:52So it helps people not avoid vaccines because of their vaccine hesitancy. I have a dear friend and their family's very conservative Christians, and they just refuse to get vaccinations. They isolated themselves. And at first, I was on the left side of the fence being, wait a second, why aren't you getting vaccines? I've come to understand why they didn't want vaccines. I totally respect their opinion and what they did. But they're very interested, and many people are, and not needing a vaccine. How can I have built innate immunity? When it comes to the pandemic storms, the viral pandemics that we face, we are an unprecedented times.

29:36What happens when we get multiple viral variants, not only from flu viruses, but from other viruses, because of loss about diversity, because of factory farming, it spreads so rapidly, we are at the convergence of possibly multiple virus and viral pandemics converging at the same time. That is not improbable at all. So it's really, we need to get our act together, and everyone needs to work together. And what we think that we have in many other physicians who are knowledgeable about the subject, who have studied this very carefully, who have looked at the data, are excited about it, because it can help innate immunity.

30:27So whether you get a vaccine or don't get a vaccine, your immune system is supported at a higher level of readiness. So when you started doing this, and you said there's 107 strains you guys have identified and isolated, what are the differences in those strains? Are some more potent than others, or some have different effects? Excellent question. With a bio -shield program, I think I submitted six strains of a gyrocon, only three showed any activity in the bio -shield program. So three showed nothing. Three showed nothing. Two of them were active against flu viruses, and now one of them was active against pox viruses.

31:09Now that's weird, because pox viruses are DNA viruses, flu viruses are RNA viruses, and so you think the modality would be different. But it just speaks to the fact how little we know. I met a Nobel laureate in San Diego, who got the Nobel Prize in immunology. And I'm not going to mention his name, but he gave a great quote. He goes, I can't believe I got the Nobel Prize because I know shit about the immune system. And here's the Nobel laureate. He just said, it is so incredibly complex. Every time we think we understand it, that we're challenged with new ideas, our controversial assumptions. So it's really important to keep an open mind.

31:50The beauty of a gyrocon on turkey tails, a multi -thousand year history of use. Traditional Chinese medicine has been advocating this for literally 2000 years. Long history in Europe, long history in North America with indigenous first nations. So this is, I mean, I think, so let me really put this in the context. Alexander Fleming, most people know this story, in 1929. He got a mold and his petri dish was growing staff bacteria. And there was a zone of inhibition. The bacteria stopped growing. So he looked at that margin of no growth. And he thought, well, that mold is excreting something. It turned out to be penicillin.

32:31So he published that. And there's a massive number of researchers all over the world, especially London and Europe. Started isolating molds to see if they could find a highly potent strain that produced penicillin. So, but they couldn't industrialize it. And in the Netherlands and the Imperial College, there's a lot of work, but they couldn't scale up the production of penicillin doing World War II until a lab researcher by the name of Mary Hunt, working in Peoria, Illinois at a USDA laboratory, went to a farmer's market and found a moldy cantaloupe. The moldy cantaloupe was covered with a golden mold.

33:12And so, Alexander Fleming discovered penicillium notatum. She discovered that penicillium chrysogenum, chrysogenum means gold, golden color. And then she isolated that mold and it turned out to produce six times more penicillin, at least, of any other strain here to be discovered. And the advantage that we had in the United States is that we had corn steep liquor. We grow corn. And a corn cobs, you boil them in water, you can make corn steep liquor. And that turned out to be a perfect medium for the massive production of penicillin. Wow. The Germans, they had a factory making penicillin. It got bombed, so they were kicked out of the race.

33:51The Japanese developed it. Penicillin literally saved hundreds of millions of dollars because of Mary Hunt's cantaloupe. You mean the lives? Yeah. Hundreds of millions of lives. Sorry, I'm just spoke. No worries. Hundreds of millions of lives because of her moldy cantaloupe. That's wild. And just, I think, a gyrocon with 107 strains, when we start sequencing them, we see, the whole genome sequencing on 95 strains so far, whole genomic sequencing, so with the entire genomic fingerprint. And to go back to your question, we have found four or so different clades. These are its little subgenera, subgenomic associations, lineages, you might call them.

34:34And in those lineages, we are just beginning to see early signal of what lineages have greater potency as an anti -inflammatory and also for supporting the immune system. So this is my biggest contribution to science. I hope, historically, will be because of this library. And I've literally spent millions of dollars. I'm not exaggerating. Millions of dollars on a gyrocon to a mass of 107 strains. And we're accumulating more. We're going to publish this in the comments in the large genomic library databases. So other people can see this. And so you said there's four strains that you identified that were particularly.

35:17Yeah, that was, it was a bio -shield program. And so out of the 107, how many of them are viable? Well, we didn't have 107 back then. I only had six or seven strains back then at the bio -shield program in 2004. So in 2024, now we have 107. We only had one choice for the COVID -19 clinical study. So I chose the strain of a gyrocon that was the most robust. That we saw on our early in vitro tests with a bio -shield program. And out of these 107 strains, you have currently. Yes. How many of them have you tested? Well, in terms of how many have we tested for immune support? Yeah, for everything. Clinical clinically.

36:06Only one. Only one. In vitro, I think seven or eight, some of them are not active. We are currently involved with another university who is now testing multiple strains in vitro. And we have new signal now. And I want to show you how big these gyrocons get. Before we go any further, when you identify ones that aren't active, do you bookmark them and see if you can try them for other things that could be beneficial to the human body? Or do you just only look at the immune system? And do you always assume that they only have one mechanism? The answer to that question, I'm a very small company. I have 150 employees on the whole company.

36:56I have eight or nine full -time researchers. There are so many applications, potentially, of this. We have to be very narrowly focused on that, which we can achieve. That's a resource issue. If I was a part of NIH, and I've made NIH applications, one out of eight, it's made it through. But it's very, very difficult for an independent researcher like me to advance the science without collaboration with larger entities. So it mostly seems like if we're finding these benefits and these mushrooms, it seems like it's to anybody, to everyone's benefit, if there was some large -scale funding of some research on this.

37:35Because if you bookmark these ones that don't have efficacy towards the specific goal that you have, is it possible that we would be missing out on some of the other additional benefits of these mushrooms that we're not aware of and these different strains? As an immunologist, our team said, because inflammation is such that the root cause of so many illnesses, the fact that you can upregulate immunity and downregulate inflammation as implications across the medical field. But they don't all show this ability, correct? That's correct. And the ones that don't show this ability, what I'm saying is, is it possible that they have other effects, beneficial effects that we're not measuring because we're only looking for this?

38:15Absolutely. We have antifungal effects. The weird thing about a gyrocon, from my experience, is the only mushroom that grows on an old -growth tree. All these other trees I find, I find four or five, maybe ten different species. But when I find a gyrocon, this is an example. This is my good friend Scott Baker. He climbed 100 feet up to this gyrocon. We got a tiny piece of tissue, the size of your fingernail, from the bottom of that. And we got that in culture. Four or five years later, a storm came through, broke off that tree. That gyrocon now is not there. So we saved it. We've saved it from fires, a gyrocon.

38:55We've saved it from logging. I've actually had some logger buddies of mine who know about this. Look at the size of that one. This is the biggest one we've ever seen. And this one is over a hundred pounds, over a hundred years of age. And it is... It looks like cement. Those are annual growth rings. Basically, they're annual growth rings. I have to say, this is... This is Mike on the guy. He's known as Yosemite Sam. And I do have permission to show this. He looks like Yosemite Sam. But this guy... I mean, that is a massive gyrocon. The biggest one I've ever seen. That's the same. So think about the...

39:36The equivalent of old growth forests. Subject to vast weather changes. Wind and rain and snow. And they live for a hundred years and they don't rot. What is about this fungus that allows it not to rot? So it seems to have a host of fence of protection innately. And since we're more closely related to fungi than any other kingdom. And the antibacterial antibiotics that we've gotten, mostly have come from fungi. But we've very few anti -fungal antibiotics. And so, research is also showing that these, a gyrocon, and other polypore mushrooms are active against pathogenic fungi. So, it's an interesting nexus point that a gyrocon is in the center of anti -viral, antibacterial, and anti -fungal.

40:28And yet has such a long history of use and safety. So we're really at the threshold. This is where science can get ahead of itself and be so reductionist. But, you know, we are whole systems of enormous complexity. And science tries to de -complexify and disambiguate things. So it's very narrowly focused. So they have a stimulus response they can measure. That's not way the human immune system works. You know, it's the entourage effect, the synergy, and keeping that imbalances the key. Now, there's between two and 20 million species of fungi. About 10 % of 140 ,000 species to 200 ,000 species or so are mushroom -forming fungi.

41:13We've only identified 14 ,000. But there's another really curious phenomenon. But 1 % of mushrooms are poisonous. About 1 % of them are edible in choice. But 1 % of them are psychoactive. Our psilocybin presence. The other 97%. They're just, you know, they just don't taste good. They're not poisonous. They're not of interest. But what do you think is going on with the amineetimuscaria? The amineetimuscaria is one where there's this historic use. There's all this mythology that's connected to Santa Claus, and shamans, and elves, and all these different things. But most of the people that I know that have tried it have not been able to experience extreme psychoactive effects.

42:04I have consumed amineetimuscaria and amineet pantherena on multiple occasions. And my amineetimuscaria, but higher doses, it's a some different, so I can put you to sleep. I get dull, yellows, and browns. It's not a euphoric experience. Dog, yellows, and browns. The colors are not bright. It's not like you're flying saucer in the background here. Everything is very, very diminished in terms of the colorama. It tends to be muted colors. Reds and browns, but not blues and fractals. So you're talking about what you see that is hallucination. Are you talking about actual colors that you see look differently?

42:52Actually, colors that I look at are different. So it changes the visual spectrum? It changes the visual spectrum. Now amineet pantherena. See, amineetimuscaria has musulol, muscorin, and ebutinic acid. Actually, I have very little muscorin, but the muscorinic symptoms cause you to salivate. And as you send up salivating and tearing and lactating, et cetera. So these shamans in Siberia, by consuming amineetimuscaria, they would remove the muscorinic symptoms. And then the urine, because they biophilter through their body, it would be high in ebutinic acid and musymol. And these are the, they can sense purifies it.

43:37So, I mean, this is a legend that's mixed up in fiction and fact and fables. I will say, in the field of my ecology, from my experience now, over 47 years studying this subject, many of the folklore has been validated only lately by science. So before people are super skeptic and think this has no relationship, well, with the sanoclas myth, hmmm, okay, the amineetimuscaria grows underneath trees, the fir trees, fir trees are Christmas trees. There's the berserkers. And legend is that the berserkers are surrounded, you know, tend to one by a very powerful army. These Norwegian scandinavians were going to be slaughtered the next day.

44:23They made a giant pot of amineetimuscaria, you know, a brew. They drank it, and then at dawn, high as a kite on the amineetimuscaria, they took off all their clothes and they just became these mechanistic warriors that attacked the other side. They freaked them out and they won the battle. So that was how the word berserk came about, from the berserkers. They went berserk. And so that's the origin of that. And it is amineetimuscaria that we're assuming they took? Amineetimuscaria. But amineetimuscaria does not have muscarin in it. So I amineetimuscaria several times. I was with my friend, and I looked at him, and he was foaming with bubbles all over his mouth.

45:04Dude, you look like you have rabies. He goes, you should see what you look like. And so, and it puts you to sleep. The biggest concern about amineetimuscaria is hypothermium by most of us experts, because you can actually fall asleep in the snow and then you can get hypothermium and die. Very people, a few people, if any, have ever died. There's one potential report. It has killed dogs. But there's a repetitive motion syndrome. It's very, very strange. And I ate amineetimuscaria as well. And I don't think I told you this story about my pantherena experience. I don't want to be redundant here, but I had a heroic experience on amineetimuscaria.

45:48And that one was very... I had repetitive motion syndrome. And I was living up in the mountains. I had freeze -dried amineetipantherena. I knew it didn't have muscarin. I didn't have muscarin. I foamed a lot. It wasn't that much fun. So, I knew pantherena was four to five times more potent. So, I took the freeze -dried specimens from the herbarium, from the college I was working out. I was living underneath a volcano up in Darrington, Washington. And as with my friend Dave, and he had his smaller body weight. And so, we made an omelet. Let's try pantherenum. And he trusted me. Note to self. Note to others.

46:31And so, we ate the pantherenum in an omelet. And I cut the omelet bigger for me, because I'm bigger body weight, than him. And we ate the mushrooms like at 10 o 'clock in the morning. You know, an omelet, they're delicious. And dressed across the river was a square creek campground. And it's where the tourists come up. And they're winobegos, and campers, and their families, and stuff. And we're long -haired hippies. And I said, you know, just on the other side there, it's a hill. We can get up on the hillside. It's an incredible view of the valley. The snow -capped volcano. Just a great vista.

47:08Let's go there. So, we, for some reason, is so close. But we drove my car, like, you know, a thousand feet to this campground. Went over the bridge over the little river, and we parked, you know, just on the outside of the campground, right where all the campers are. And so, we walked past, you know, all these tourists and their families, and we went up on the hill, and then we were sitting up on the hill, and we're waiting for the mushrooms to come on, and like an hour. Nothing. No experience. Like, you know, what's going on? And this is very typical, by the way. This is a characteristic, eminent, miscarry, and pantherino.

47:40Take a long time before the onset of first symptoms. And then, we're up on the hill, and I'm looking out at her right beautiful view. And suddenly, what was that?

47:56This sort of, this wave came through our visual field, like this invisible wave. And I said, do you feel that? And they go, yeah, I felt that too. And they're like, whoa, we're feeling the same thing. And so, our visual fields are again distorted, and they start coming on so fast. We're going, holy shit. We got to get out of here. You know, this is coming on too fast. Let's go back home, because it's more intense. So, we walked back through, and I have a roller -flexed camera. I got a 35 -millimeter photograph of all my life. And they were walking through the backside of the campground. And there's all these kids and families, and Winnebago's, and camper of hands.

48:40And then, I remember this one, Winnebago, it was like the longest Winnebago in the universe. Every time I was walking, c -poo, c -poo. It was a Winnebago of no end. I couldn't get past this one Winnebago. I kept on walking, c -poo, c -poo. My friend, and then, finally, we got past this Winnebago. It seemed like it took forever, and there's my car. And for some friggin' reason, I locked the door. And I have my keys. And I looked at the key, hold the door. And I looked at my keys. I want... Missed that one. Didn't again. Missed that one. Just, uh, me and my friend goes, everything okay, Paul? Everything's fine.

49:30Just give me some time. And, you know, after, I don't know how many times, magically, just by the fact that I tried so many times, I think it just slipped into the lock and unlocked the door. I'm sorry. Okay, so I sit in the car, and now I have to put it in the ignition. And I'm going, boom. Oh, no. Boom. And my friend goes, maybe you shouldn't drive. Yeah. Good advice. Maybe I shouldn't drive. So it's just no way. I couldn't, I was getting more and more intense. It would not be responsible to drive. You know, so absolutely the right decision. Not to drive. So then I got out of the car, and the camera was on my lap, and then I got out of my car, and you know, meanwhile, a group of people started gathering, because we were there for a long time, trying to get into the car, and then trying to, and so these people got kind of curious.

50:24And Dave goes, you know, some people over there are kind of gathering, Paul, looking at us, and I don't want to look at them. And so I get out of the car, and my camera falls, and it hits the ground. I go, oh, shit. I just dropped my really flexed camera, and then I picked up the camera, and I go, wow. I just dropped my really flexed camera. I drop it again, and I pick it up. I go, did I just drop my really flexed camera? I dropped it again. Repetitive motion syndrome. I picked up that camera, and dropped it. Dozens and dozens of times. Oh my god. Meanwhile, the cluster of people got larger. Parents were holding their children close to them, saying, we don't know what's going on here, but it's getting weird over there.

51:10So pretty soon, I had a very large group of these campers who are all watching us, going to keep keeping their distance. And that is repetitive motion syndrome of dropping and dropping and dropping. And so finally, you know, we had the staccato pace. The timeline of the day got broken upside. Morning, when we ate, then I had evening, then I had early afternoon, and then I had early morning, then I had late afternoon, then I had evening. The whole thread of time was disintegrated, like, and scrambled. And so then we walked. And I lost Dave. You know, Dave, I figured, Dave, you're on your own, buddy.

51:45And I got enough to work, you know, deal with here. And so we walked over, and we walked over this bridge, and we got to my place, and I got to my house, and I had a combination lock on the door. Oh my god. Last thing I need is another. So I spun that combination lock, and I couldn't get it open, and then I went into convulsions, and they felt good. So I'm convulsing on the ground, spiking like this, and every time I convulsed, right afterwards, it actually felt good. And so I was like, you know, I'm convulsing, but it seems to be helping me. So I convulsed, and you know, thrashing on the ground, don't know where it happened today.

52:21And so I went back to the lock, and I spun it, and it's magically the lock opened up, and then I fell into bed. And then I had this amazing rush of I'm stining thoughts. The thoughts were just so profound. I go, oh my gosh, if I could write these down, these are just like so important, you know, a conclusion of great mysteries of the universe. I have this at my hand, and just before I came to the object of the sentence, I would have a prepossessional or adverbial phrase, and then I get a tangent. Oh no. And I saw death then and there's been perpetual tangents that never give you the satisfaction of having a complete of thought.

53:04So I went down this rabbit hole of constantly forks in my thinking, and then I blacked out, and then at the end of the day, you know, the sunlight came through the 12 -hour experience, this is the long experience. And so there's no summertime then, you know, at the very end of the day, the sunlight came through and flickered to my eyelids, and I woke up. And my friend was convinced I was trying to kill him because I was a mushroom expert. So I had no idea this was going to be this intense. Where was he during this time? He ended up in the cabin, and safe, but he was like a statue, you know, who's just there, sitting when I got up, just looking straight forward.

53:53And we spoke a few words the next day, and for the next few days, and then, you know, Dave went on, his life journey, I think he's convinced to this day that I knew what would happen, but this speaks to the berserkers, the idea of repetitive motion syndrome. Andy Wilde, who you've had on this show, he was at Cougar Hotsprings, and he was going to the trail to Cougar Hotsprings, and somebody ran down the trail, said, we need a doctor, we're a doctor, this person out there is trying to kill himself, and he's a doctor, so he goes up there, and there's this big hippie guy, and he's on this log, or on the bridge, swinging his legs wildly, covered with blood, and before Andy's eyes, this guy throws himself off the bridge.

54:36It right onto the rocks and the creek down below, you know, ten feet or more below, smashes himself, and gets stunned, and looks around, and walks back up, and gets on the bridge again, and throws himself off the bridge. So, this is why, if someone had killed somebody on the end of a scarier pantherino, I would testify as an expert witness to their avocontrol. They have no control of their repetitive motion syndrome. If you read, a watch tells from the crypt, or some witness something violent, because when you re -remember, you re -enact, there's no control of your memory and your action. They'll pharmacologically, that must be really interesting.

55:18You know, the world scientists have been studying this for a long time. We can't quite figure it out. But I think this underscores the point, that mushrooms are chemical wizards. These are, they have enormous potential for exotic molecules that interface with human health. And there's a huge pharma -capia, micro -pharma -capia, inside of mushrooms, that have not been fully explored. I think it's true with the garicon, I think it's true with the soul -sibon mushrooms, certainly true with the amdina -mascaria, etc. So, ironically, amdina -mascaria is legal. There's no restrictions. You can possess a hundred pounds of it, but you can't possess a tenth of a gram of soul -sibon mushrooms without breaking federal law schedule one.

56:03So, how can a mushroom that makes you happier, less violent, you know, resolve your PTSD, depression, etc.? How could that mushroom remain illegal and yet amdina -mascaria and pantherina are legal? So, it's just the juxtaposition, but for the record, no species should be illegal. It's the hubris of humans to think that we can dictate that a species is illegal. That is fundamentally wrong. Agreed. My question was about amdina -mascaria. Because you're talking about a garicon and how many different strains there are and how different strains are effective at different things, one of the things that McKenna believed was that because he had never really had a positive experience with the amdina -mascaria, but there was so much attached to it.

56:51He thinks that it was probably variably, variable genetically, variable seasonally, variable, just so much like a garicon, there's probably many different strains of amdina. So, these ones that they were tributing to, like, the Sacred Mushroom in the Cross, John Marco Allegro's book on amdina -mascaria and the Bible. Do you think that it's possible that at one point in time, there was psychoactive strains of amdina -mascaria that vary from the ones that people have that have these different, sort of, more mundane effects? Absolutely. We call them phenotypes. You can call them strains or phenotypes.

57:29It's a variety within a species. But pharmacologically, we already see that with the salosyby mushrooms. Some of them are really high in sulcibe, very low in sulcibe. High in biosystem, noribosystem, norcilylicin, lower. So, we see this not only cross species -wise, but inside of a species with the phenotypes. Some phenotypes of salosyby events that are extremely potent, and other ones are not. So, strains do matter. And this is where, with a garicon, I think, strains do matter. The fact that we found one strain of a garicon that supports immunity, and it looks like it helps extend the efficacy of vaccines is a home run.

58:07You know, what are the other strains capable of doing? Right, that's what I was getting at. It's like, God, we seem so underfunded with something that has so much potential. I'm funding it. You know? I'm glad you are. So, I spend the enormous amounts of my financial resources on research. That's why I created my company. You know, I started my company packing boxes by myself. You know, I'm not ashamed to admit that I laid in bed crying many, many nights. I was bouncing chucks. My suppliers were shutting me down. No one was there to help me. I was by myself. I packed 30 ,000 boxes before I had a single employee.

58:48I got accepted the five graduate schools and I couldn't afford to go, because I didn't have a scholarship. I had a young family. My daughter, I would very adept at catching my daughter from her backpack as I leaned over to pack a box. Cellophane tape will not stick at 35 degrees. I can tell you that. Wow. And I actually, I don't want to flood the airways, but if you call us 360 -426 -8255, you'll get the public utility district. Why I know that number and grant? My lawyer said, if you call the utility company and telling me you're sending a chuck, they legally cannot shut off your power. So I thought, okay, for 10 years, at 801 in the morning on the date of disconnection, I would call the public utility district as I am sending in a chuck.

59:39Oh, poor. And after a while, I heard this noise, and then many years later, I met some of the people and goes, you know, you're a legend. I go, what do you mean? He says, we all gathered around the phone at 801. On disconnection day, betting that Stamos would or not would not call. And everybody who bet that I would not call lost their bets and at the end, everyone was just cheer. It's Paul. And I think they're having a party in the background. No, it's Paul calling it 801. That's hilarious. I maximize my cash flow. Wow. And thankfully, I had a local bank. And the local bank, one of the board members said, how much money do you pay and overdraft fees?

1:00:19And there's the extraordinary number of, you know, $5 ,000. And he goes, you're one of your best customers, man. They should keep them. So I built this business blood sweat and tears. Now I have 150 employees. I own the whole company. I'm very grateful to them. We call it a Starship FP. That's like your comedy clubs, the mothership. Right? So our company is known as Starship Funji Perfecti. And people want to track us down, we're at funji .com, F -U -N -G -I .com. I registered that myself for 28 bucks. Nice. When did you get that? We're here. 1992. Oh, yeah. You were early. You had to be super early to get that.

1:00:5620 people were more radical. It's a kingdom. You don't have to write it down. It's funji .com. So that's amazing that you got that domain. But I use your stuff. I've had your stuff at my house for a long time. I think it's great. And I'm so happy that you're out there. I really am. I'm happy that there's not a lot of Paul Stamets in the world. There are a lot of unsung heroes. I have a lot of attention. I'm sure you're so humble. But my point is that it's like we really need research in this stuff. We need a lot of research. And the research is becoming increasingly credible. It's the University of Arizona Medical School, Andy Wiles Center, a program for integrative medicine, University of California, San Diego, UCLA, Harvard, actually, and other institutions.

1:01:40They're very excited now. Because this has been sort of like weird science, you know? Yeah, that's what I was going to get out. I was going to say that there's this real reluctance to believe that people in the past had answers that we don't have today. This almost religious belief in modern science. And also, this belief that the transition of knowledge has been fully complete from ancient people to today. And there's nothing as slip through the net. That doesn't seem to be the case. And also, for sure, they didn't have the ability to document things, at least, and preserve those documents to today.

1:02:18Like we can today, in regards to research, regards to which you could find out in the modern laboratories, and just what you're able to do to find out which of these mycelium strains are effective, which of them are not, at least for the particular thing you're looking for. Like, all this, you've got to assume at one point in time people had some sort of knowledge about this stuff that we just have lost. We had to. We were so dependent upon the environment. Yeah. We know what plants are edible from the experiences of our ancestors. Right. Eighth than before us. And it doesn't discredit modern medicine to say that these people had this extraordinary understanding of what was beneficial.

1:02:58Absolutely. And this is where the hubris of science, we should be very careful. Right. Because the importance of biodiversity cannot be overstated. The hubris anywhere. Yeah. The hubris anywhere. Every single place it shows it's headed, fucks it up. And everything, even in martial arts, guys that think that they can't lose, go in and get fucked up. It happens all the time. Hubris is terrible. Yeah. It's just terrible. It's the human ego trying to keep itself from being, like, just to recognize it's true place, which is just part of an infinite sea of things that are happening simultaneously. And you're not really that important.

1:03:39You are important, but everything is important. And you're not more important than anything. It's all together. I totally agree. And it seems to be, unfortunately, lopsided in favor of the Y chromosome. So hubris and the Y chromosome? Oh, yeah. 100%. We're the fault of it all. That's true. That's 100 % true. But that's also why we invent everything. It's just like, we're a bizarre subset of the humans that causes so much chaos and so much good at the same time. Well, I have great hope for the future. I do too. I think that. Because you're here. Yeah. I mean, thank goodness that we live in these times that we do with all the problems that we face and look at the medical advances that we've made.

1:04:23I'm getting hip surgery in two weeks. Yeah, we were just talking about that. You know, you also are a martial artist in all the years of thrown kicks. You've worn one of your hips out. Yeah. I've quite a few friends who've had that done. My friend, John Wayne Parr, who's still active. He's got a fight coming up soon. He had a hip replacement and fought after the hip replacement. At least once. I think you fought twice. Yeah. My surgeon said, besides cataract surgery, this is the best medical innovation has the greatest difference in patients before and after surgery than hip surgery. Yeah. Well, I told you about Graham Hancock.

1:04:57Yeah. He had his done and then six weeks later he was walking around here. Yeah. My mom just had her knee done and she's fine. It's great. I was so nervous about it. I just didn't want her to do it. I wanted her to get stem cells. I wanted her to try to treat it and just... Well, the biggest concern we have is MRSA. You know? That's a big one. It's terrifying. It's terrifying. Yeah. But I know quite a few people have gotten that as well. Yeah. So... Jiu -Jitsu is a breeding ground for that shit. You get scratches and scrapes and then they get infected. It happens all the time. Specifically, just staff specifically.

1:05:30But MRSA exists too. I know quite a few people have gotten that. Back for the day, we always would be wiping up the amounts of blood. I mean, now you can't have blood, you know, in the dojo or the dojoing, you know? Yeah. It's considered to be a health hazard. So it's so much more restricted now. Perhaps not in the mixed martial arts that you're involved with. Well, the thing about the grappling is just the scrapes. You're constantly getting scraped up. Yeah. You can kickbox in spats and, you know, rash guards. And you're probably going to mitigate a lot of the scratches and scrapes. You know, it gloves on and foot gear.

1:06:02Oh, that's your ass. But if you're grappling, you're constantly grinding things on those mats. And you're getting scratches from fingernails, and you're getting accidental, you know, collot collisions that cause little cuts and abrasions, and they get infected. Yeah. And people that don't, like my friend Ari, he had no idea he had staff. I gave him a year of jujitsu for Christmas. And he and I were at the pool hall. And this still scares me to this day, because I think he came close to dying. He was walking around with a limp, and I go, I go, what's wrong with your leg? And he goes, I got bit by a spider bite.

1:06:39I go, let me see it. He pulls his knee up. He's got a massive staff infection on his knee. I go, dude, that staff. I go, we got to go to the hospital right now. He goes, are you serious? I go right now. And I broke my cue down. I go, we got to go right now. You have to go to the hospital, man. You have a bad staff infection. And he was fucked up for a while from it. He got through it. The antibiotics worked. Thankfully, it wasn't MRSA. It wasn't medication -resistant staff infections. And it was just horrific. Well, this speaks to, I got immunity. You know, if you're, and nature's the numbers can.

1:07:10You know, you have different coefficient variables of one side of the equation. The other side of the equation is health or disease. And so, how can you stock that to your favor? Right. You have to be robust. You have to eat well. You have to take vitamins. You have to get exercise. And, you know, it seems like mushrooms can help you quite a bit. I'm a big fan of lines, Maine. I take lines, Maine every day. That's one of the big ones that I take. I take it too. You know, but I wanted to ask you this, like, are there better ones to take? Is a tincture better than capsules? Is capsules better than tincture?

1:07:40Those are good questions. The extracts allow you to, the activates directly through the macosa. So, it gets into your bloodstream. But, for instance, turkey tail lines, Maine, and a garacon are very good as prebiotics for the microflora in your stomach. Double blind placebo controlled study. Again, go to mushroomreferences .com. With amoxicillin patients, where they're microbiome and they're gut destroyed because of this potent antibacterial antibiotic. And so, they found when they gave turkey tail mushroomy mycelium, again, double blind placebo controlled, and they looked at the microbiome, the those who took turkey tail mycelium, recovering with amoxicillin, end up up regulating beneficial bacteria.

1:08:30And down regulating staff and clostridium, et cetera, lactobacillus acidophilus, and bifidobacterium were upregulated. These are beneficial bacteria. So, there's an example of that also, if you orally ingest, then you can set up the microbiome to a higher state of readiness to help whole stasis, you know, health. And then you absorb the components directly in. So, again, it tends to, it depends on what your target is. If it's general immunity support, then the oral ingestion. If you're concerned about the port of entry, you know, like of a pathogen through the macosa, then obviously, you know, oral introduction in so far as it supports immunity, can stay off the entry point of those pathogens.

1:09:24So, would you recommend both a tincture and capsules? So, the tincture would stave it off at the sores? I cannot respond to anyone using the question recommend. Okay. I can say what I personally do is a combination of both. Okay. And nature's a number of scales. I'll just ask you that from now on. What do you do? So, you know, I don't want to get you trapped in these conundrums. Yeah, it's, so you take both tincture form and capsule form. Yeah. I take a throat spray, which has a garicone and turkey tail in it. I love it. That's what I use all the time when I go to concerts, and I'm in crowds, etc.

1:10:00Oh, smart. And the morning, I'm taking lion's mane turkey tail and a garicone. I'm 68. You look great. I, well, to tell you why, I cube wrist. My partner's a medical doctor. And every time that I feel like, I feel like I'm 30. I don't feel my age at all. The next day, I fall off a ladder. You have 12 feet. Again, hubris. Bam. So, I have to be careful what I say now. Hubris is real. It is. I think nature has a sense of humor to whack you up on the side of the head. The universe is a sense of humor. Yeah. There's certain aspects to it that almost seem like it's playing like very subtle jokes. We're at the beginning of just understanding the importance of the biodiversity of the ecosystems.

1:10:46That's given us birth. Right. This is really, it's a continuum. But I, I'm really excited about the innovations of what's happening with psilocybin. And psilocybin and lion's mane in particular is something I'm very excited about neurogenesis, neuro generation, neuropusticity, neuro regeneration for different things. But they all segue into this concept of the neurological systems being improved using components within mushrooms. And that's something that I think has a lot of potential for us, especially as we age. It really is interesting how, as we get old and as the science, all these things advances, we realize how shallow it really was just a few decades ago.

1:11:36And how little we knew about the effects of these things. And it just varies. It just, including vitamins and minerals and all the different supplements that people take that have shown to be beneficial. It's like, this is a very recent thing in terms of human history, of our current understanding, like our scientific understanding of mechanism of vitamins. Yeah. I'm, I'm keen on it. You know, it's the absence of vitamins that you see the deleterious effects. So it's like, you know, research by absence, you know, of vitamin C's, herbs, curvy, et cetera. But I'm very keen on, on stacking, you know, in microdosing.

1:12:16That's something that we've had a lot of activity. And I'd like to give you a huge thank you. And this is very sincere to you and to the JRE audience. And Jamie, can we put up that sign? the nature article on microdosing and basically when I was here last we were talking about microdosing and I came up with a stack of lion's mane and a microdosis ulciben below the threshold of feeling it and niacin nicotinic acid which is a flushing form and we did a call out for people to join and download an app at microdose .me as for iPhones and George so they could measure before and after effects of microdosing and what we found and we published this this is the first article that we published and this was in 2019 I believe oh 2000 2021's this is on their motivations if we go to the next article what we can stop here for a second.

1:13:39This is the title here adults who microdose psychedelics report health related motivations and lower levels of anxiety and depression compared to non -microdoses what does that mean health related motivations why are you microdosing because you are don't feel creative because you're depressed because you're having anxiety this is the extraordinary metric and this is something you may not realize this majority of this came from your audience this audience right now but if you look at that 4 ,600 non -microdoses and only 4 ,000 microdoses. Joe do you have any idea we have more citizen scientists who are non -microdoses who jumped in this app this is why the editors at nature like the study because it was called so well -weighted so well -weighted because they're the non -microdoses exceeded in this case fairly comparable but 4 ,653 non -microdoses who downloaded the microdose .me app to measure performance and how they felt and Jamie if we could go to the next so let's be clear here they they're non - microdoses but they microdosed for the study no no they didn't all they did has got these these challenge tests so they took the the app they downloaded the app but they didn't do anything to their consciousness they didn't do any microdosing at all okay so and this is why they were and then why do you think so many of them that don't microdose signed up for that we have no frigging clue you you tell us wow I think it may have been citizen scientists who wanted to get a baseline first and then you consider people lying because they don't want you to know that they microdose it's anonymous you know yeah we're scared the next one if you would with a correction psilocybin microdoses demonstrate greater observed improvements in mood and mental health at one month relative to non -microdosing controls we had why did they have to make well let me show the next slide with a graph if you can see it the the reason why is that there was a typo an original article oh and it's the one with a bar graph if you can see it and um you know this guy it's a little tough to find the links sorry no worries does it how long have you had this company host defense I've started that host defense ran about 2004 is what I started I see them everywhere now seem in health food stores and shit where the number one mushroom based immune product line get excited for you okay this is yeah we'll just go this is the this is the app we go through the four slides here that that'll be great so this is the app microdose taught me I encourage everyone listening to help us because now the app has been improved it was a little bit laborious before we want to go out to three months we want non -microdoses and microdoses but please the non -microdoses we need your input these are challenge tests and so these are acuity tasks the acuity task yes their actual app itself is vision hearing memory there is how do you feel etc so I asked you before I forget yeah who is the scientist that ran those studies a long time ago where they showed that psilocybin in low doses increased edge detection it increased your ability to see whether two parallel lines one of them had gone off of parallel I do know of the reference I do not remember foreign scientists yeah I German yeah you're I have a good memory but better than mine I don't remember the name of the yeah other scientists but this is a long time ago yeah this is probably in the sixties something like that so and then if we so these these tasks have they demonstrated that the people that are taking the microdose have better results in these absolutely are you filtering out for you know healthy user bias IQs on patients we we have there is takes five minutes to enter into the the data set to create your profile as anonymous you own your data it's gone through institutional review boards to the University of British Columbia right so I've been carefully vetted you own your data nobody else gets to see what you've done or your frequency it asks you your age actually your income your nationality or your to ask your occupation did not ask occupation education education yes yeah whether we have a college degree high school or whatever so we have a tremendous I mean with literally millions and millions of data points the the data fields so robust and now we're trying to narrow it to confirm what we saw in the first studies microdosing is associated with a massive relief of depression a relief of anxiety increased in mood and now we have customized it for more and not so much subjective effects but cognitive demonstratable skill improvement because of course people when the people feel better if you feel better some people can say that's the expectancy or placebo it's ironic because it's like a patient coming into a doctor saying I feel better than they go no you don't you can't feel better this placebo but doctors use expectancy all the time every time you go to a doctor you expect they're going to have a medicine good medical advice you want a kind in caring physician every time you go to a five or four star restaurant you expect the food's going to be good so you can't were humans were complex you can't divorce one's motivation for getting a treatment away from the expectancy of that on that treatment right so does the expectancy enhance the medicine that's the question if people are not depressed not less prone to suicide and you save them from suicide isn't that what physicians want to do they want to help their patients to be better so the the stacking results though is what we found to be most surprising and can I ask you to do you measure do you ask the people to go through the visual acuity or the the different tasks sober first to get a baseline and then see if there's improvement from microdosing or do you just show that the group that microdoses has higher levels of proficiency you know I don't think we asked them the question if they're a sober at the time they take the test but not even sober because we're talking about microdosing microdosing but but did you but did you ask them like they use marijuana number no doesn't measure does it measure the difference between them before microdosing and them after microdosing it does so yeah so you had a baseline so before you ever microdose I'd like you to take these tasks and do these puzzles and whatever whatever yeah things you have visual we have visual we have cognitive tests we have acuity tests we have hearing hearing yeah hearing using headphones you're using to get their phones their tones off off the phone so you'd be able whether you can hear things as a as an auditory a challenge is it dependent upon the volume of the phone it's that you're asking really really good question because the type of phone the type of speaker what is iPhone 12 or iPhone 15 the newer phones it gets much more complicated yeah then the other tests and so we have a narrow down on what we really want is people to go for three months so the signal that we got in 30 days was extremely strong but we need to be able to repeat the results to confirm and then we want to extend the microdosing window of testing to three months now people only need to once they get their baseline they only need to report once every two weeks or once a month so it's a much less burdensome for the people joining microdose not me to perform the task they can see their results compared to the average so there's a dashboard that's present so they can see where they are relatively average and eventually they will have access to all their own data but as all anonymized as all protected it's on servers in British Columbia so it's all you know tightly controlled so the anonymity is assured Jamie you're able to find that chart let's go back to the next slide if you could next one next one that's the finger tapping test let me just okay this is the one I want to focus on this is is why there was an author correction the p -value of significance here is .004 that made us one chance in 250 that this this is a random result this is published in nature scientific reports went through peer review we didn't see any increase the tap test is how often you can tap your two fingers together in 10 seconds for those who have traumatic brain injury and you probably know a number of these people traditionally they do a tap test Alzheimer's dementia Parkinson's they do tap tests unfortunately there's a steady decline but the tap test has been validated and just another article came out this past week saying that handheld devices are validated medically now for patient reports so this is the chart that blew all of us away is that the green line is people taking the stamens stack which is slaspy commensus approximately one -tenth of a dried gram 500 milligrams of lines main mycelium and 50 milligrams of flushing niacin those three together now the non -microdozers you can see over 30 days no significant increase in the tap testing microdozers only with celciben the blue line celciben only not statistically significant but those people were taking the stack went from tapping 48 taps in 10 seconds to 68 taps in one month wow think about that think of your on a computer your guitar player your drummer think about walking to the bathroom and not falling yeah think about this this is not subjective this is an affirmation of an improvement in psychomotor performance now here you'll ask me the question again yeah athletic apport how does this work we don't know how it works we just know that it does work wow so we want to extend this out the 90 days we want to see maybe the microdozers with celciben blue only maybe that starts to uptick maybe it's delayed and then it increases we maybe this this this green line with the stem on stack maybe it emulator rates and and softens or maybe it next summer rates but i looked us up and for you to do the tap test involves six regions of your brain you look at your fingers you i you i d8 and you look at your fingers you start your psychomotor cadence you get a feedback from touching the table and that feeds you back and then you develop a rhythm of rhythm and so we let people tap test for several days so they go up the learning curve so we don't include them for several days and then then people that we like practice but then that we see this result so i think we're on to something really exciting here but that value of p is 0 .004 one chance in 250 it's very hard i mean you can't say a sick that's being demonstrated so now i chose niacin because celciben's a vasoconstrictor niacin's a vasodilator i chose a flushing form of niacin because you tingle and i thought wow we give the neurogenic and neurogenic benefits of celciben that get it to the end points of the peripheral nervous system neuropathy is oftentimes present themselves the deadening of the fingertips in the toes so with vasodilation you get more blood flow to where the neuropathy is and then lion's main well demonstrated again mushroomreferences .com you can do many many references up showing that lion's main mycelium contains these compounds called aeronase scenes that rebuilds helps rebuild myelin on the axons of nerves to enable signal transmission and also stimulates NGF's nerve growth factors for the proliferation and the extent of the neurites to further grow so i stocked those three together and again i have i'm a co -author in the paper i had no access to this data in fact they called me up says we see a signal we don't believe it we're taking we're not gonna take we're taking the data step back and they attacked it three different ways with separate us statistical methods and the data held true and so we know there's the increase in psychomotor performance so there's a lot of musicians now that are very keen on taking the stock yeah they're saying they're banjo playing is better yeah think if you're you've been playing the guitar or teaching piano all your life you're dependent upon this digital dexterity to be able to have your acumen and your digital dexterity as you age helps you pass down knowledge to the next generation i mean this is really exciting um we need to disambiguate it we need a big data set and we're i'm calling out to Joe Rogan experienced listeners especially you non -micro dosers we need you and then we need everyone to go at least three months at least populate the baseline and check in month one uh month two month three we need to see if this data holds up because i was actually surprised i thought solside and micro dosing by itself but i've had greater liftoff on the psychomotor performance than we saw i suspect it will have liftoff morso and we go in the month two or three but we don't know let the data and the science lead but the fact that we got the signal and again how does it work why does it work where does it work folks it works right right you get you don't see a force for the trees because you're so conflicted and trying to understand the mechanism of action but i'd like to see it applied to other tests have you ever seen those tests that they do where they have like an electronic wall and there's lights and the light when it goes off you're supposed to tap it yep and so there's a bunch of them like a lot of boxers use them they use them to heighten their reaction time we have that on the on the app also oh nice flowers flowers yeah tap tap tap tap tap and you have to do it again but the thing about the the one that you have to touch is you have to actually move your body right so you're moving your arms you're reaching down you're going up you and they're all in front of you and you never know which one's going to light up this is just the beginning that type of model that you just described to me would be much more informative than the top tells have you seen though you know what I'm talking about right Jamie see if we can find a video those you can show it to them but I always wondered like why these guys doing that is like is that really help fight does that help fight performance I'm not sure I mean I think sometimes like trainers get caught up in technology and they have you doing certain that I think I think your time you're probably best spent using technique but I don't know I mean is there a reason why that would like lights going off would somehow another make you move better well see look at these things work I mean what is that doing to your mind that is so beneficial that person is an exceptional as a former that's an exceptional that guy's on a dose right now he's on the stand with stack all these girls use their feet look at this interesting be faster but does it actually make you faster I think it would you know I think to a point you know everybody plot toes when they practice you know they end up practicing to hitting 90 % of the optimum of their performance and then they hit sort of a new baseline it's hard to get above that right we hit that ceiling how do you break break through that ceiling right this I think is an opportunity to break through that ceiling and it would be really fascinating to see if it could be applied to skills you know sports and athletics martial arts things along those lines like it would be interesting to see archery be interesting to see if it increases people's abilities is there are so many stories of performance enhancement on low doses of psilocybin yes you we've all heard them assistant there's something there I've experienced it with pool the pool yeah the like the game becomes like 10 % easier and see this is why these observational studies are important to medicine clinical studies are based on early signals and the clinical studies are trying to refine reduce the variables to see a cause and effect right but we only clinical studies already started this not out of the blue you know they have to have a good theoretical basis observational studies by tens of thousands of people create the signals so the data set we have is so big we're going to try to use AI to say what else is hidden in this data the reason why we we went to the tap test is that so many of our beneficial outcomes were depression anxiety mood these are all subjective and so when I asked a physician we know what is an objective test that's not subjective she said oh we have the tap test you know so that's why this is a demonstration of something that is happening that as performance related that's outside of subjectivity expectancy etc this is performance measurement that's solid data and now and think about this Joe they're getting the psilocybin mushrooms in underground market you know we sell 50 % of the lion's main products are out in the market other people are selling lion's main products they're getting a variable amounts of niacin those are all confounders that would reduce the significance of that data that means that this data could be understated if you standardize everything to a standardized amount so we don't know how to where the how to optimize how far do you think we are from some sort of a legalization of psilocybin I think within five years yeah I think we'll go from schedule one to schedule three out from the election or schedule two for sure but psilocybin I mean psilocybin why do you think after the election specifically because everyone's so worried about margins if you pissed off 5 % of the people do you lose 5 % of the vote right no one wants to take a risk it makes it look like they're weak on crime or something yeah it's something like but see this is the beauty of the psilocybin what I am very encouraged by is law enforcement I have met so many law enforcement officers now just let's let's be real about this if you're law enforcement officer you have 100 100 arrest encounters are you going to be perfect for the hundred of them no if you're a veteran and you have 100 expeditions are you going to be perfect with a hundred of them no are you through a doctor are you going to be perfect on 100 no and you'll make a mistake everyone has a really bad day do you want that bad day to define the rest of your life as a skeleton your closet or monkey under back or you do did something that's fundamentally wrong but you can't talk about it and then you you then react out against other people because you're in turmoil there's so many law enforcement people that have turned churches there's one called the define divine assembly church and in salt lake city there's another way a church called the Church of Enbrosia and Oakland more than a hundred thousand people they're cloaking themselves inside these churches for civil rights protection but when they get together with the community of other veterans the law enforcement officers and they can share their grief their sorrows their mistakes and not be condemned for it we lack forgiveness in this society we don't have enough people acknowledging their mistakes without fear of retribution and say I'm better than that one bad day that's not going to define my life and so what's happening in Canada and the United States to a degree is law enforcement officers know that other officers are benefiting from this so they are deprioritizing soul siphon decriminalizing it because they're benefiting from it so this it's a big thing amongst soldiers it's a big thing amongst soldiers I've met so many yeah many many guys have had very very beneficial experiences I believe humans are generally very good good they're motivated by goodness but they get hijacked because of a very bad day or sequence of bad days because then that becomes an inflammatory pathway well sure there's the stress of the job itself if you're in law enforcement every day you could get shot every day you might not come home to your family every person you pull over with hinted windows might blow you away before you get to the window can you imagine walking up to a car with windows up yeah you know the unknown person and you have one second to two seconds to make a life into that decision I don't want that responsibility you're probably already racked with anxiety so we already experienced so many things that most people can never imagine that depression anxiety frustration creates an inflammatory response that depresses the immune system that then can lead to diseases such as cancer vulnerability devices you know and the anger issues emanate outwards I all of us I think have been affected affected by fentanyl you know in my county Mason County Washington 17 people died in two weeks from fentanyl 17 people a small county the fentanyl crisis is killing some of the best of our youth it's terrifying it's terrifying it's terrifying because it's it's unprecedented there's never been a time where so many people are dying of overdoses and this is accidental overdoses from things and this should be the priority of law enforcement there's law enforcement and we're going to be on the wrong side of history busting somebody for psilocybin with that's going to go on their resume and 10 15 20 years maybe five years from now it'd be like busting somebody for marijuana where it's legal in so many states right what do you what do you think that the the the solution to the fentanyl crisis is is it legalization I mean this that's a tough one right because legalization scares people because and and I would agree with this but for sure if hard drugs are legal more people are going to try them because they're more available they're going to but you will at least be trying the actual drug and not getting like street volume that has fentanyl in it or you know you have you have criminal syndicates you know that's the other part of it and they have basically addiction militias militias of people who are addicts coming to them to give them money I'm not an expert on drug policy there are other people that are I would first take the step that all natural products containing any scheduled one substance should be legal not illegal psilocybin masculine you know you can make the argument for LSD I think that you know that's the first step is all natural products should be legalized decriminalization if you cannot get legalization and then have a decriminalization with therapy I think if we don't have legal constraints just like speed limits on the highway do you really want anyone to drive as fast as they can we do need limits we have to throttle this down so our structures are in place for us to be able to make the best positive impact with the least amount of harm and that's the quagmire that we're in other countries in the world and now the Brick -Dolberg and Andy Welkin speak on this eloquently as many other people but I want to stay in my lane of mushrooms when I think there's over 200 species of psilocybin mushrooms 162 species in the genus salasabi and just recently I'm happy to say I have a new species named after my me my college just honored me by naming a new psilocybin mushroom salasabi stometsii so I am so I'm this is a new one that they discovered they discovered in the rainforest in Ecuador it's very rare please don't pick it but there's no greater honor in my college you didn't have a species named after you you never name it after yourself they feel a medicine you can do that with Parkinson's and Alzheimer's etc but they feel with myology and botany you know it's an honor to speak with you by other scientists so that 162 species all over the world there's been over 5 ,000 collections of psilocybin mushrooms since the 1800s so they are bridges across cultures across centuries I would argue across millennia and any peoples living in the ecosystem long enough would stumble upon these psilocybin mushrooms especially things like psilocybin kebensis which is a big golden mushroom that's associated with cows you can't can't miss it right you can see psilocybin kebensis folks 200 feet away driving 55 miles an hour you know if you're tuned in you can see them in a field so they're that glaringly obvious you pull over and pick them um I I can't help myself what do you for research for research of course your research your actual my colleges um there goes one what what is what's your take on dentist McKenna's experience that he had in the amazon where the reality sort of broke down for a couple weeks um dentist is a dear friend of mine I love that and Terrence is a dear was a dear friend of mine Terrence and I were best buddies and I love them both and my brother John died he was my mentor and Terrence dying also those with Terrence to the end and um as Terrence said always said Dennis is the real scientist you know I'm a I'm a psycho not philosopher you know the best command of the English language of anyone I've ever met you know Terrence and Dennis and Terrence you know I think have made have been courageous in their viewpoints of pushing the envelope and this is where it's really important again where is the forgiveness in people you don't always have to be right the fact that you try and you fail you talking about some ten Terrence's I mean the time wave zero time wave zero is bullshit I mean I'm sorry I challenged Terrence on this he had time wave zero explain that to people that don't know what we're talking about time waves zero is an algorithm of historic events that steer the course of humanity as best I remember it and Terrence invented this but the problem with time wave zero that I pointed out to Terrence he said the birth and death of Christ was not a historically significant event as a Terrence I know you're not Christian but you can't deny that the birth and death of Christ was not a historically significant event so it was not in time wave zero well he was skeptical of the existence of Christ as an individual but even if a Christ did not exist the event of that period would have been a significant event the crusades occurred all the stuff that happened just the creation of the Christian religion the Christian the Christian religion was a historically significant event that ramified throughout history so Terrence's time wave zero did not recognize that from the best of my understanding I talked to Terrence about this lot and then he had the end of time being the death on just birthday which I'll give you and so but then but for Terrence's defense he had the best answer I could ever have thought of because I was saying I was vilifying in Terrence this is bullshit bullshit and he goes Paul is an ever changing algorithm I'll just keep on adjusting it I thought okay it was a good answer it's a good answer but so the algorithm is essentially based on taking historical events you know that that we know of that are fact and putting them into this database and a string that would then predict other historical events that will occur in the future in the net but you couldn't spit you couldn't predict the specific event you would just predict significant events that's my understanding but I'm this is this is a big one was December 21st 2012 and nothing really happened yeah but did something happen and maybe we're not aware there are many things happening of which we're not aware but is it possible that a significant change in the world happened that we're not aware of well I mean you ask me to mean the world today yeah there's one thing if you did go back to 2012 and looked at the world and then looked at the world in 2024 it's radically different it's pretty fucking wild and if you had to say like what happened like historically when we look back at the collapse of western civilization for say let's say it all goes sideways and we go in a nuclear war and this and that and the grid goes down we're back to stony people if anybody survives if you go back to you know that this time if a thousand years now people look back in this time they'll they'll be looking at a sequence of events like what happened that caused all this what was the what was the catalyst was it social media was it the the the being December 21st 2012 was a random number relatively but just 12 2012 is a significant beginning of the change of society I think I think social media use yes I would agree I think you had parsed us out where every single day as a historical right of greater or lesser significance depending upon your point of view chat gbt of course when you look at things like that the ubiquitous use of AI and the the fact that it seems to be getting far more powerful far quicker than we can predict yeah artificial intelligence I think it's a misnamed I call it digital intelligence it can be that but it's all ultimately natural intelligence you know we have created artificial intelligence you know we have given birth to this technology it is from our natural intelligence that we have created a subset of artificial intelligence yeah a hundred million microbes in a cubic inch of soil you know eight ten or more miles of mycelium cross -talking all these organisms a quorum that's then concept by a molecular communication the infinite not infinite but the enormous amount of complexity that's under every footstep that we take and we get so intoxicated by our new invention that we think it's the brightest object in the Christmas tree I think AI is going to be fantastic for medicine it's going to be fantastic so many things but I don't think AI will be able to capture intentionality or generosity or the emotional indebtedness we have when you find and find somebody who's out of disadvantage who needs help you reach out your hand in kindness it's not a one -to -one transactional exchange the fact that you joke helped somebody else when you didn't need to and there's no obligation circumstantially otherwise you voluntarily helps somebody you've created a reciprocal debt of gratitude that cannot fall into any metric I believe that person's going to go Joe helped me that guy is good I owe it to myself and to him to pass it forward and that's what I think is also happening I'm going to segue back to psilocybin when you look at psilocybin a person's in turmoil they're angry there's a great example here in here in Austin with a police chief and the police force there's one bad actor and this and other law enforcement officer very worried this person will take the department down and he was just should not be in law enforcement he was angry he acted out and they encouraged him to go to a weekend church and he recognized he had problems he did a high dose of psilocybin he came back the next day over the weekend on Monday and people did not recognize him he fundamentally changed into a new person he lost his angriest he was polite considerate he asked for forgiveness think about that we don't want to talk about negative things because we're embarrassed and we share the shame of a family member or but when something positive happens I'm talking to you about it it's like a pebble in the pond that emanates out echoes of goodness and goodwill yeah and that's where I don't think AI is going to be able to cover and quantify it might try to it might have higher predictive outcomes based on the data sets but I just feel like you know we need to train AI for our benefit we need to learn from AI but the there are humanity and who we are and our intentionality and friendship and love for each other I think will always be the super force that governs the universe well that's a beautiful sentiment I think our our ability to be kind to each other is very important to us I don't know if it's very important to the sun I wonder if what we are and the things that are so valuable to us exist because it sort of motivates us and pushes us in the direction that we currently find ourselves in where we're in a constant state of technological evolution and innovation and that this is all this is what motivates us to do these things and I wonder if these life forms that we are creating and I think we are and I think we're probably already we've probably already done it into a certain extent that these don't have all of these same values because they're not us but they'll also be free of all the things that do cause depression and do cause anger and do cause irrationality and do cause harmful thoughts and feelings and painful memories and all those things but these are these are remnants of our ancient primate DNA that is necessary to us because we are trapped in it but might not need be necessary to whatever this next stage of existence is yep I can see that but you know families matter yeah matters to the families and they do and but they're finite these are experiences that we're having currently and it is important currently it's important I so I'm not diminishing it but I'm saying if I had to take an overall perspective is this the only way to do it no it's not the only way to do it is our our our emotions and our desires and needs the things that have motivated us to get us to this position that we're currently in are those riddled with side effects like war and murder and and and and thievery and all the things that we know that exist in the world that are a part of the human condition if you know if you ask an any rational person today what are the odds of love no war in three years fucking zero zero humans have always engaged in war well what is that why is that well it's because of the motivations they're all the same they're the same motivations that Napoleon had the same motivations other people who are abused with their our child have a tendency to become abusers from their adults I think that psilocybin makes nicer people I think so more compassionate yeah and I'd like to redefine the benefits in the theory of evolution is not the survival of the fittest but the extension of generosity of surplus beyond your own needs to help a neighbor or a friend I think we're talking about different things because I I agree with that will wholeheartedly and I think for human beings they're extraordinarily beneficial and they happen for me my concern is that we are we're like homo sapien version one and that this new thing that we become whether we integrate or whether we just die off is is another thing I agree with it I think we're at the crossroads in the crossroads one leads to an extinction path yeah and the other one is sustainable because ultimately we cannot continue in destroying the biosphere and expect it to support us right yeah and just our way of living is kind of unsustainable long -term it's the positive hope is that AI and science itself and technological innovation will mitigate all of the negative side effects that we will concentrate on using intelligence to clean up the air and clean up the ocean and do all the and sort of fix all the problems that we've personally created but I what I wonder is that we are so attached to us to the idea of us with all of our flaws are we any different than australia pithicus be told australia pithicus hey bloody in the future everyone's gonna have a phone in their pocket and no one's gonna need all these muscles and fucking hair all over your face and back this is like you're gonna die off like you're not gonna be you anymore australia pithicus boy get the fuck out here i gotta go gather food get away from me you're an idiot now i don't want to be you i want to be me if it with no more australia pithicus they all we all die off that would suck because it's all you know and i i think that homo sapiens are not long uh you ask very very good uh questions for which there's very few answers and but i think they are very active asking the questions to stimulate the thought creates the milieu of creativity that will come up with solutions to some of these issues i hope so i would like to think that we become an enlightened species i think i would like to think that we get our shit together psychedelics is the best potential last hope yeah it really is that it's funny that it's the most undermined it's the most maligned publicly the most dismissed as being nonsense usually and almost entirely by people who haven't experienced it which is really fascinating when you see people that have not had psychedelic experiences to dismiss psychedelic experiences that is a wild thing to do like boy you are so silly and you don't even know you silly and you're the majority yeah which is wild yeah we represent the less than the one percent of those who are psychedelically experienced who understand many of the studies like at Johns Hopkins what is what are the numbers do we know like publicly look if you have just the United States what percentage of people have had like legitimate breakthrough psychedelic experiences less than one percent yes i guess how many people experimented with psychedelics i think that depending on the age group it actually is quite high now you know it's up to 10 20 percent but how do you explain the enoughable how do you explain something that you cannot put the words and this is where just like oh you people are crazy because you can't articulate it and then every person that i know of have gone through with one of these heroic doses come back and say oh my god i can't even explain it exactly you know it's like we have a thin sliver of reality right now Joe right we're looking at you and and Jamie we have such a thin sliver and when you're under these experiences the entire universe opens up and you see that my my consciousness has been so limited and now i understand that i'm in in relationship with everything in the universe and it's also not just a feeling that's this intense visual experience it's a feeling of being yeah with a capital B right and then you feel like oh my mortality that's okay you know my birth that's a good part of the continuum i deem it like her lies and i reassemble into a different form of my molecules and atoms reassemble you know i think this is the continuum of existence expands the dawn of time to the end of time and and even now beyond i think that it gives me great solace from in my own life to realize that i'm part of something much larger i want to share with you my Billy Graham story oh boy i've never mentioned this publicly i've taught over 3 ,000 students in vitro propagation how to grow my cilium edible mushrooms more may mushrooms i did these workshops for a long time and i just one very nice man came and came in as the young young 40s mid 40s he waited to everybody without the room and this is about 1995 1996 and he waited as a paw i was sent here oh boy i go okay and i said i said well who sent you i'm with a council of 12 with Billy Graham the charismatic christian leader and he said many of the council of 12 have come to their christian beliefs through psilocybin wow i have come to thank you for all your work for helping us have a better relationship with Jesus and our religious faith wow now i was my my mother was a charismatic christian i grew up in that environment i mean i was like of course blown away how does it charismatic christian they speak in tongues they do healings of their their you know they have their own culture for sure um but i've heard this now with Jewish people Islamic people with the Buddhist people it seems that psilocybin doesn't create a conflict in religions it supports you in your religious beliefs of dedication to what you want and hope to become as a religious practitioner or a follower but it's not it doesn't throw the other religions under the bus it just makes you more dedicated to your purpose to walk with kindness and goodness and and reciprocosity uh to to be a better person do you think that psilocybin was what the host was made out of i don't know i don't know have you heard that speculation yes i have yeah um i think that there's just this is so it's so rich in history i just came back from Egypt a few months ago and i went to 10 pyramids on every pyramid we found mushroom hieroglyphics every one of them now i sent this through grandma handcock some of these hieroglyphs and Egyptologists said no they're shovels and jamey there'd be a challenge for you to find this but you and whenever one shovels will be pointed down and if it's a perfect example well scientists don't look at Egypt in the context of the ecosystem 4 ,000 years ago right and the in africa the plateau of running rivers to ticillian and jar plateau has fantastic the b -man figure that plateau is called the route the plateau of running rivers there's no mushrooms growing there it's a desert same with a nile it was the bird basket of the world and the greeks for the elusinian mysteries cesar was a lover of cleopatra then mark anthony 20 years younger then cesar became a of society with being lovers would share the most intimate secrets and potions and all of that i think that happened so we have under two other scientists have published this before me that the hieroglyphs on these on these temples are of psilocybin mushrooms so those look like mushrooms they test one of them what these though look like mushrooms but there's better ones okay now let's pause on this one so i want to give a shout out to abdel azim he published this in 2016 this is the goddess of thore at the dendura temple if you look this up it gets less than one millimeter of rain a year that's how dry it is those that's a vase there with these mushroom figures coming out and the lower part is the blue lotus a water lily associated with a mushroom now he published this in 2016 i'm not the only one steven burlant in 2005 published this in a fantastic individual african -american who died from covid his name was kandiri from detroit he also believed from his african ancestry uh...

2:00:16the african Egyptians use psilocybin mushrooms so we got images of fascinates the laws the next one you can't judge now what do they what do they try to say that is you can't say that's a bunch of shovels they know but there's other ones so do what do what is the conventional explanation for what you're looking at they they said they didn't know what it was now i don't know what it is this is it hiding it's not hiding it's not hiding it's not hiding so they're not willing to talk about is that what it is exactly this is psilocybin convinces on the right now as a cultivator and many of your listeners are cultivators they know what i'm going to say is true you can pick up cow paddies with psilocybin convinces put it into a vase just like that it collects you can put water in it limits evaporation the mycelium seeks light and air so it would pop out of these orifices and that is a taxonomically correct image drawn of psilocybin convinces and down below is the blue water lily and there's psilocybin convinces Egyptians royal colors or gold and blue the blue lily water lily the blue lotus is blue slaspy convinces golden it bruises blueish and jimmy if you could humor me with just tumor slides there's the blue lotus there's another example of the mushrooms associated with the falcon i mean there's dozens of these images look at that one on the left that's not so obviously mushrooms not a shovel no the shovel will be upside down it's so obviously mushrooms but it's like the way the cap is formed and that the cuspidate cap the shape of this and and yet in here is a painting on on papyrus the temple of Osiris it also has very similar and this next image i think is the next image now there's a balloon of psilocybin convinces again the next one we'll just skip the thon and okay i was looking for blue juice i don't know if we have blue juice on there that one's wild what is those little figurines these are mushroom stones some as american mushrooms stones from guantamama wow and they persisted for 1500 BCE to 500 AD a thousand years before the conquistadors came and they were representative we think of a mushroom cult and they could have been a family like air of you know air looms how silly is that the conventional archaeologist wanted knowledge that those are mushrooms well we actually have a reward out and this is great that i'm speaking about it um is that we have a reward of a thousand dollars for anyone who can find psilocybin convinces uh dna in the ruins and um because we can amplify the dna we can prove that they're either in the vases in the ponds or near the ponds and doing core samples sort of like they've done with the ulucinium mysteries with uh urgot where they got you know jimmy could you see the blue the blue juice image you don't see it it's just uh it's a hand with uh a vessel of blue liquid in it two two images so more than one thing can be true when you're looking at the elucinium mysteries oh there we go so this is something that blew me away have you seen dune two i have not i heard it's awesome amazing frank herbert was a friend of mine he wrote dune frank herbert lived in port towns in washington and frank herbert uh came to visit me and um frank told me he was growing chanterelles in christmas trees that were just five years old i go that's impossible i guess how are you doing that and he goes well i take chanterelles and i put them into water port at the base of the trees and it comes up so there is the blue juice and so if it takes philosophy cubansus or at least it'll stop in mush from this potent you put it in the water you create blue juice and this is in dune two where they drink it and so i ask frank frank the eyes are blue the benchesirat are these the shamanic women who have this highest standard cult is that based on meria subina i said and maggots grow through mushrooms and i said everything the spice seems like it spores and your blue eyes and his blue juice and he goes you're the first person just notice this oh wow he said he was tripping on solside in mushrooms it was laying on his deck and he saw worms coming out of the mushrooms at a eight solside mushrooms and that was the dawn of the idea wow now i i'm this is absolutely true and i haven't met you know frank Herbert son i really want to meet him to tell him this because he did say something about i think he had two sons i read my memories fogging on this but he said i'm keeping this secret from my sons i said why he goes well they're illegal and they're just at the age right now that i don't want to tell other people about this oh no so um but it all makes perfect sense the spice is spores the blue juice from the blue juice you saw that was made there yeah um it all ties together and look at that beautiful color okay so this is from the church of enbrosia i think david Hodges and and this is philosophy convinces on the right and this is philosophy as your essence on the left and solside is a pro -drug for silicin silicin degrades enzymatically into indigo the molecule the indigo molecule complex and it's actually reversible though i don't haven't seen it happen but theoretically it's reversible but this is the blue juice and so wow we discovered this several people discovered this independently well with the abjections discovered it yes you know with the mausotex and the ausotex the mausotex discovered this yes this is very simple you powder you put the mushrooms into water and it elutes into the water the next day and you end up with this potent blue silicin packed elixir and so this also speaks that you know i think people all over the world when they are experimenting and they're inspired and they know this is a sacred substance how do we preserve it how do we protect it oh you put honey with it well honey is the antibacterial and in the 1516 the bivarian beer act banned the mushrooms that's interesting they ban mushrooms from beer because mushrooms are being added along with henbane other plants to make these narcotic elixirous and you know means honey beer beer so i you know don't underestimate the creativity and innovation of any people living along enough in their ecosystem interacting experimenting making mistakes making successes thousands of years for thousands of years yeah you know we should not be intellectually myopic which i think it's another problem with the hubris of science well it's also a problem with this whole drug schedule thing yeah because when it's schedule one even talking about it openly opens you to criticism and ridicule especially if you've been involved in academia for decades right so you you started your career and your mindset towards these substances at a time where it was very detrimental to your reputation to be pursuing these things absolutely that's why as much criticism as Timothy leery and arrondoscats and even Andy while they were all incredibly courageous no one more courageous however than Maria Sabina who opened up the mass attack tradition and also valetina wasen our Gordon wasen's wife was a Russian physician who was also a mycologist the difference and the similarity in wheeler de la caratitude to Maria Sabina and the mass attacks and to valetina wasen who died in 1958 um but she was grew up in russia she knew how to identify mushrooms these are not people just in taking salsai mushrooms they knew how to go out into the fields they and valetina vetina wasen she knew the russian names they wrote a book mushrooms russian history was going to be a cookbook of 500 recipes and it became this great ethnomicological you know exploration but these courageous women were not only medicine women they were fueled by colleges who could go out into nature and find them i i have a i have a DEA license now and i passed my background checks hey i guess they have a listen to your podcast i'm uh yeah well no i have i'm very serious about this i had one also in the 70s and 80s and my father at the end of his life asked me to trip with him on salsai ben i turned him down elegant and a smith who wrote a monograph then you know salosabi the father of american in my college he one of the greatest my colleges ever who's published many new species of salsai mushrooms in 1978 and asman calorado um saks is nomass he asked me to trip with him on salsai mushrooms here's like having your hero elder saying i trust you i want a journey i've read all about it will you trip with me both of them asked me and i asked their wives the same question will you journey with me and with him and both other wives said no and i said i can't i can't have this experience with you in both cases i was leaving leaving the next day what would i i might i'd abandon them would they have this life change experience i have all these questions and i'm not there to talk through it and and so i adopted the policy and i'm very strict about about this nature provides i don't i mean i am very sure i don't feel as ethical for me to give a salosabi mushroom to somebody else i'm not a therapist i'm not a psycho i'm a my collegeist i my own deep personal religious freedoms and i do believe that these are sacraments and they are part of my own personal religion i'll stand on that i've published on that i believe in that but i have no right to give it to somebody else and i think this is really important that we need to be adults about this these are very potent medicines and the rituals of the mazatex and the aztecs and the mayans and so many first people and there's people they had the structures set up they're honed over the centuries to how to properly administer these sacraments we many of us from european descent or orphans where spiritual orphans have been cast from our religions our religious roots from my Germanic roots i named my son azerus he's probably going to listen to this hi ass in mislattent masculine singular for sky blue and i named a species called salosabi azerusans because it turns blue and also from my son um and when i named my son azerus my family gave me a just tremendous criticism how could you give this kid this name and then when it's five years old we're at our my grandmother's house and we're going through our family history and our coat of arms were from the house of azure oh wow and and then we're from the house of gilford in that within the house of gilford the subhouse of azure and um i looked it up and we're 30 miles from my family's roots are 30 miles from stonehenge so september 22nd the druids have invited me to be in the center of stonehenge for a ceremony they are rediscovering and they maintain they've used salosabi mushrooms throughout history it's called re -inditionization with the Egyptians' alchemists that i've recently met they know their ancestors they believe it spiritually they use salosabi mushrooms in combination with the blue lotus it's called re -inditionization rediscovering your ancient roots of your practices what is the psychoactive compound in the blue lotus very complex a blue lotus is amazing i've only been recently introduced to it i've had some elixirs made of it it awakens up your receptors it gives you this hyper state of of consciousness it's not speedy it's kind of an alertness phenomenon and so does it come with heightened circular respiratory i know the pharmacology other people can speak of because i'm you know again i'm staying in my land of my ecology because you know it's the elevated heart rate no no but with that shortness of breath nothing nothing like that nothing like it's stimulant no i i experience super alertness that's what i would say it was like i was super sensitive um so they're they're combining now these Egyptian alchemists i met slasemy commensus golden mushroom bruises blue with the blue lotus the blue lotus opened the daytime closes at night you know birth and death um and now the with the druids i say they've always used slasemy mushrooms and so there's in so many other peoples now are re -indigenizing there you were going on about the the what the blue lotus does though the blue lotus in combination with slasemy commensus looks like it's an elixir that was practiced for a very long time as evidence by the higher glyphs that we just saw and what is in the blue lotus like what is the actual compound i i cannot tell you really yep interesting okay today the blue lotus flowers were used primarily as a sleep aid and anxiety reliever however at higher doses achieved by inhalation users could experience euphoria and hallucinations the psychoactive effects of the flower are attributed to two a how you say that a porphine a porphine alcoholoids apomorphine and noose aphereine

2:14:54interesting oh it's good for electral dysfunction oh no it may help muscle control in those with conditions such as Parkinson's disease and erectile dysfunction dopamine agonist that's interesting so much like some of the dopamine agonists that have like weird psycho side effects um you know there's like a pharmaceutical drug dopamine agonists like excellent Jamie boy um re -equip do you know what that is no it's uh it's a it's a crazy case where a guy won a lawsuit against galaxosmith cline because he was on a dopamine agonist and it turned him into a gay sex and gambling addict he was a heterosexual man who uh had Parkinson's had wife and kids and it could not stop like picking guys up and the random like chance encounters and he got raped he uh lost all of his money he let gambled his entire life savings away it was hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and got off the medication and the symptoms all went away and he realized that it was this dopamine agonist that was actually one in court and not a lot of money hmm not a lot of money that's causing effects sounds very complicated yeah yeah the dopamine agonist thing that they're have like if you google pharmaceutical dopamine agonist side effects they're pretty well documented and one of them seems to be um a lowering of inhibitions or a lack of control of inhibitions which uh with would lead to like they think gambling problems you know just people did just can't put it all on black let's go spend that roulette like they just go crazy and they just want to gamble hmm which is very strange well that seems like a medic creating of a obsessive compulsive disorder you know so something along those lines but also like this guy was saying that he was completely heterosexual until he started taking these dopamine agonists and then he wanted to have a lot of like random dangerous gay sex I have been immersed into a group of psychiatrists um and my heart goes out to him because then it's such fuzzy science it's just so complex um and you know you become a medical doctor first and you can go on for two to four more years become a psychiatrist and it just seems like it's really um it's really shows that the psychiatry is still at the infancy of its science well there's so there's so many things like SSRIs and no showing it's not a chemical imbalance that's what the whole basis of what it was about what are the dopamine agonist known side effects because uh some of them are pretty crazy nausea vomiting, arthostatic hypotension, headache, dizziness, and cardiac arrhythmia among the most common side effects of dopamine agonist these adverse effects are mostly dosage dependent it's highly recommended to start these medications at low dosage to reduce the risk of orthostatic hypotension delirium hallucinations seizure coma but some people have their google um re -equip lawsuit it's like re -equip our e -equip lawsuit yeah Parkinson's patient wins lawsuit over gay sex addiction look at this so i think this was in the UK they're clicking on those okay Pfizer settles lawsuit tying sex and gambling addictions to dopamine meds so this was Pfizer this is a different one this is a different lawsuit there's more than one lawsuit the confidential settlement with the hundreds settlement with 172 patients said to be for millions of dollars was approved by the judge in uh federal court in australia financial review reports although the payments were delayed until they were assessed by independent review Pfizer okay side effects of the drugs they were taken to treat Parkinson's disease or restless legs syndrome yeah and so gay sex and gamble causing them to gamble with their life savings or become obsessed with shopping or sex yes so it seems like impulse control sounds like lots of echoes to me huh it's vagus like imagine they could sell that in vagus uh the occurred at least 10 % of the patients but said they probably were under reported due to patients were ashamed to talk about what they had done wow interesting so the the one okay re -equip okay FDA should require a black box warning on labels of dopamine agonists a class that includes we equip from glaxosmith cline UCB's new pro and mirrorplex from bowinger ingleheim the german company was sued by a new york man some years back who said taking the drugs and turned them into a pathological gamble gambler who ruined him uh as he gambled away three million dollars wild yeah i would be just a word of caution when you read headline articles like this you know there's probably a lot more behind the story i'm sure in the covers well it's also there's probably a lot more if you're talking about the difference between the blue lotus flower some naturally occurring substance probably also has a bunch of other things in with it as well it's sort of like when they had marinal remember when they try to do like synthetic THC and give it to people it was terrible you know because they didn't want people smoking pot because there's a lot of things that come with it right it's not just as the individual compound right it's like all the things inside of it though the especially when it comes to cannabis the other cannabinoids that work synergistically with THC yeah yeah well i think where the extraordinary time of re -evaluation i hope that we have greater respect for diverse points of view i think a lot of these observational studies and patient reporting should steer medicine i think the observational studies in general popular databases for scientists to be able to look at looking for signal i think a i will be fantastic yeah i was going to say it to you lucidating you know signals that we can't possibly see right so i think there is a convergence you know of psychedelic science and artificial intelligence but i hopefully is guided by a very high ethical standard where we are always you know trying to steer the course you know in a way that is judicious and does not get away from us and that's the biggest concern about AI that i have that's why we have to give psilocybin to everybody involved in AI we have to give psilocybin to AI just don't know how to do it yeah it could that be programmed in i don't know compassion psychedelic experiences feeling of connectedness what if the AI automatically knows all these things because it's already achieved some sort of state of enlightenment just by virtue of not being attached to all the things that hold us back hubris ego you know all the things that ruin humanity maybe it will automatically be enlightened because we won't be connected to those things but is AI singularity in and of itself it's a diversified singularity is that are converging to a a single yeah concept eventually as time rolls out well that might be a part of what psychedelic plays in all of this that might be that that might be our parachute that might be the one thing that can kind of help us make our way through this and and keep some semblance of sanity i just think that the advantage of psilocybin is that anyone can grow it in their own home it's democratizes psychedelics it's easy to do it ties you back with nature you know i'm a libertarian in that the government has no business you know what i would be in crossing my threshold of my door what i do with my family way i do with my home etc that's especially when it comes to something it's not harming anyone right and especially to something that like the LD50 is so high you'd have to have pounds and pounds of it to get sick and die i think it's 38 pounds yeah that's not what you'd die from dehydration of absorbing the mushroom so literally wouldn't be able to do it you wouldn't be able to eat enough to kill you and i think this speaks to the freedom of consciousness you know it's a basic human civil right we should all have the civil right for our own our rights are unconsciousness we also have to look at it in terms of the the rights of individuals like an individual does not have the right to tell you what you can and can't do that's not going to harm someone else that it's just wrong it's wrong fundamentally for a person to have that kind of power over another person someone doing something in the privacy of their own home where it's not harming other people and it's not even dangerous to themselves maybe psycho maybe psychoactively dangerous i mean maybe someone who's very vulnerable maybe someone who has schizophrenia maybe someone who has already psychologically impaired maybe yes then but the only way we find out about that is to studies the only way to do that is to legalize it the only way to do that is to change the way people think about it and i think what you spoke about with police officers my experience with soldiers with veterans that have had very positive and beneficial experiences and even people that are like near death you know they're they're in hospice care that have had very powerful like well there's a great organization called Roots to Thrive is a Canadian nonprofit they've taken i think 60 patients end of life anxiety most of them stage four diagnoses a few months to live they have eight caregivers eight patients they meet on zoom they get together they prepare for this they do high doses of psilocybin with the Canadian government approval either first nations a health care facility and a number of great people are involved with Roots to Thrive i highly recommend them and it makes me want to cheer up is that in one of the sessions one of the first sessions there are eight patients they get together and they prepare and lay lay down this common room and when you do a high dose of psilocybin as you know the effects come on pretty quickly 10 to 20 minutes but an hour the two hours in you're you're peaking and just as they were peaking the first nation elders on the other side of the wall started drumming and everybody started crying because they knew that they knew you know how important that was and to have first nation support with people who are dying and the majority of those people come out of the experience not fearing death and they become counselors to our families say it's okay i'm dying and they change the whole relationship with leaving and interestingly and i just heard this number recently of the 58 or 60 people only four of them have died and they all had terminal illnesses going back over three years now so you think about wow mind over a matter if you don't have this anguish this inflammatory right you now have optimism about life and you're meaning you're a caregiver you have purpose right then isn't your immune system upregulated it has to be we know that emotionally depressed people do have a depressed immune systems well people who have found a little least on life and purpose you know it would augment their innate immunity i've always wondered about that with COVID as well the people that were terrified of COVID and once they got COVID they were just overwhelmed with anxiety and fear and all that does is crush your immune system yeah and all the fear that was being propagated by the media this constant like death bell that was rang all over the media just scared the shit out of people yeah and it probably weakened a lot of people's immune systems and probably cost a lot of lives there's no doubt about it i think basically spreading widespread panic you know increasing anxiety depressive the immune system yeah there's a lot of factors right there's there's companionship love friendship happiness in your life physical activity there's only different mitigating factors that can alleviate some of your anxiety and if you don't have those yeah all those things are going to compound and it is a cascading effect well that's why again i see life and death a life in disease health and disease has been a it's a multifactorial equation how many coefficient variables can you get on this side of the equation that on this side of the equation results in a better life a healthier life a better attitude i think psychedelics in a particular psilocybin is a very major coefficient variable they're going to help tilt the balance and moreover it's just not a linear equation it it becomes a matrix of implications to everybody else around you and your community your family community the city the nation the world is that we need psilocybin now for societal benefit more so than we have ever needed it and it's time has come and so i applaud all the researchers who have struck out and my discussions with law enforcement is really interesting they want to put their energy work they can have the most positive impact to protect the health of society and fentanyl syndicates are a high priority individual use of psilocybin does not and that's how it should be i mean we should we really grow up about this stuff and and if there were there was a widespread legalization at the very least you could develop centers where people could safely take it and they would be treated by counselors and you'd be have people who were experienced travelers they're registered and know how to deal with people and handle people and we could do it in like a modern shamanic setting that can be done the not that i love lawyers but one of the best lawyer strategies i've ever seen in my life is the decriminalization of psilocybin and psychedelics through the lowest priority of law enforcement so it is a violation of the officer's duty their oath to use public funds to prosecuting people for psychedelics so it is it is at the level of jay walking right it's basically it's the lowest priority of law enforcement which means that the law enforcement officer tries to bring a case forward it is a it is malpractice of their of their ethical duty to perform their job to waste the court and the public's money focusing on psychedelics as it should be as it should be i mean that's just one step right it should be legal and we should get an understanding of it and how many people it could benefit i think decriminalization is the lowest hanging fruit and then and this long walk towards legalization decriminalization i think is is i i think it should be legal i mean i want to make sure everyone knows that but i think from a practical point of view lowering the penalties and reducing it as a at the lowest priority of law enforcement makes a lot of sense what did you think about california's decision to not legalize it or not decriminalize it and allow it for they wanted to allow it for therapeutic use but they wanted to set thresholds first they said no thresholds were established to know protocol or program was established and if they would they would reconsider if that was done well right now my understandings are the council of physicians have blocked all research on psilocybin and psychedelics in california total blockade they will not allow any research there's a governing board for schedule one substances in california which most states don't have and that governing board is a stop -go board for progress of research on schedule ones and they have dictated essentially no research on psychedelics and is that a finding issue no i think it's a political science issue you get physicians or other people who are not experienced with these substances making decisions about these substances ill -informed decisions from inexperienced people for the most part and so they have a distorted perception of what these things do and they don't feel that there's any value in studies it's like somebody who's never flown an airplane who then thinks they know how to fly a flying airplane telling you giving you advice on how and why you should not fly an airplane because they're just inexperienced or out of their out of their kind of experiences so that's not good especially for a progressive state or supposedly progressive state well the initiative the public ballot initiatives at 70 80 percent in in Canada recently a survey 80 percent of the citizens of canada want psychedelics approved for therapeutic use and decriminalized 80 percent so when the states that have ballots this is how these these these big changes are occurring and then citizens paid with public funds you know public officers public employees then have to fall over the will of the people and so i think the ballot initiatives is gets politicians out of the hot seat they have to say oh we have to fall over the will of the people i i did not stick my neck out on that is the ballot initiative the people have spoke so i think there's the people's revolution movement so i think this is a revolution for the freedom of consciousness of other grounds falling that's occurring not united states in canada but all over the world it's so desperately needed well said pulse damage you're the fucking man i appreciate you very much thank you very much for being here it's always a pleasure to talk to you uh your company that you sell these wonderful mushrooms out it's called host defense fungi dot com you get that and thank you for everything you do my friend i really really appreciate it i want to thank you to these observational studies because you can't help inform scientists to make good decisions and create validated studies that help lead the medical science community forward we need all of you you know so you're here get out of preeks all right thank you thank you thank you bye

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