#2203 - Eric Goode & Jeremy McBride

27:11I was like, that's a coyote. Oh my god. There's coyotes on the streets. And that was pretty rare then. But 30 years later, it became insanely common. I would rarely go, I lived in a fairly rural area where I lived in California. I lived about an hour outside the city and I had a lot of acres and it was cool to live out there. But you experience a lot of wildlife. And I saw coyotes almost every day. Almost every day. Yeah, they look like a May and G. Motley skinny dog. But they're cool. There's something cool about coyotes. But the reality of coyotes, I don't know if you know why they're so successful.

27:49But one of the reasons why is because they're the only, so red wolves can interbreed with coyotes and that you get the coy wolf. But gray wolves do not breed with coyotes. They just kill them. And so because the gray wolf, which lived in California and lived all over the West Coast, was the predominant predator, the coyotes had to develop a way of surviving. And the adaptation was when they call out, when they yell out in the night and they're trying to do roll call and figure out how many guys are around, when one is missing, the female will have a change to a reproductive system where she will develop more pups.

28:29And then they will expand their territory. So because they were persecuted by wolves, they expanded their territory. So now when people came in and started killing off the wolves, which they did successfully, but they were never able to kill off coyotes because of this trait. So coyotes are now in every single city in the United States. This was not the case just 30 years ago. They were what we call, there's a word for it's called subsidized predators. And these are animals that do better around man. And crows are one of those animals, raccoons are one of the coyotes. And they're weirdly can do thrive and do better around human activity than a lot of other animals.

29:12And so coyotes are one of those. Because of garbage. Yeah. Because of garbage as a water. We bring in water in erud areas. So highly adaptable creature. And just for the record, I do like coyotes. And I listen to them almost every night having a tailgate party behind my house. They're cool. They're cool. They make the areas noise together. They caught something. Yeah, but you know, I'm sure you've seen that video from Woodland Hills where this man was unloading his car and a coyote came and snatched his toddler like right in front of him. It's hard. They're fucking predators. And you have to be careful.

29:48Little things and little people and animals will get eaten by them. And that is what they do. Like dingos in Australia do that. Right. Right. Right. Don't go ain't my life. There's no doubt that we live in complex ecosystems. And we do not like the idea of them. We've developed these bizarre establishments called cities. And in these cities, we have removed ourselves from nature. And if you go to the mountains of Colorado, people are well aware of mountain lines. They're well aware of bears. They have to lock their garbage up. They have to they have like a neighborhood email list where they talk about like bears broken this guy's car and everybody's on the look.

30:28But they understand they're living in this system. They're living in this ecosystem. Most people in the United States that live in urban areas have no idea that they're in an ecosystem. Because we've essentially done some very bizarre stuff and isolated ourselves from nature. Which is one of the reasons why we have this strange idea that we are not animals and that we are not a part of nature. Yeah. You know, it's it's just weird. It's we're we're fucking weird. We're weird in our justifications. We're weird in what we allow ourselves to do. Yeah, that's back to the chimpanzees. That was one of the things that I just couldn't ever you know, I couldn't ever connect with this woman, Tanya, that kept this chimpanzee and tried to explain to her, you know, that we are chimps, you know, effectively.

31:21And, you know, and she just, you know, took the page out of, you know, Genesis where she just said, you know, I'm not, you know, we're not animals. This is an animal. I can own it like property. Anyway, that was just one of the things that she just never really fully understood. Well, this episode is brought to you by Life Lock. Tax season is already stressful. You shouldn't have to worry about identity theft on top of everything else. And trust me, it's a big worry, especially since during tax season, your sensitive info does a lot of traveling to places you can't control. It goes through payroll, your accountant, your tax consultant, and countless other data centers on its way to the IRS.

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34:13A picture perfect sunset or a cute dog running up to you and licking your hand. Again, that ziprecruiter .com -rogan -ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire. To be kind, she's not bright. She's not a bright woman, not a well -read woman, you know, unfortunately. And this seems to be part of the theme of all these folks, which is weird, you know. And then you've got the one guy in Tiger King that's essentially running like a little sex cult, right? That guy. Duck Antel. Yeah. And then you've got the Tiger King himself. Joe. You got Joe Exotic, who is also kind of running a straights the sex cult.

34:53But, you know, he's just got all this personality and he's so interesting and fascinating. And if he wasn't in jail, it's really unfortunate, you know, because if he wasn't in jail, he would be a very popular person. Can you imagine if he was? Well, he's trying to get Donald Trump to exonerate him. Pardon him. I mean, he was constantly after I talked about Tiger King. I get messages from that guy. I don't know how he's giving me messages. I'm assuming it's someone who works for him. Yeah. But I get messages all the time. Like, you've got to help get him out, put him on your podcast, do this, do that.

35:34Well, he also has communication in jail. He gets a somehow he's able to get his phone. He's doing video calls. Well, you're not ghost. Yeah. You know, there was a moment. There was a moment when we're filming this kind of like second installment of Tiger King where we covered this this part in the presidential part and there's a real shot where Joe was actually on a list supposedly that Trump was going to like a kind of a bit hilarious. It's hilarious. So I don't remember exactly what the specifics of his accusation. So was he caught trying to hire someone to whack that lady? Yeah. So he was. Yeah.

36:18You know, and that lady, is there any truth to this idea that she whacked her husband? Carol Baskin. There's a lot of circumstantial I wouldn't say maybe evidence, but there's sort of who else? It's not clean. Who else? And it was either it feels as if it was her or members of our family and they were the only ones to gain. And so yeah. And what a great way to dispose of a body. Uh -huh. I mean, I don't know how she disposed of the body. It's nice to. Well, you have meat grinders on the premises and you have enormous predators on premises. But don't you think the only the only thing I would say, Eric, is the circumstances surrounding the change in the will.

37:06I mean, who altars it to count for disappearance? It's a very, very strange. And it's really good disparity in the handwriting as well. We did handwriting experts. We did the entire thing to prove otherwise. It's also just when she talks about it. You know, but Joe, back to Joe, uh, Joe exotic, you know, I was on the phone with him a lot up until he was convicted, you know, from prison. And he just was convinced he was going to be exonerated and, you know, not convicted. And they offered him. The feds offered him a deal, uh, which was something like six or seven years, you know, you can plea or you can go to court.

37:48He'd probably be out by now. Yeah. I was just going to say he'd be out now. And so he was so convinced that he was going to win, which is so delusional. But yeah, poor Joe would be out right now. How he made that deal. By the way, how crazy is that that you could plot to kill somebody and let you out in four years. Like, I know you've been locked up with a bunch of murders and thieves, but I'm sure you're a better person now. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's plot. It's plot. And then you're intent, you know, it's it pains someone to go do something. Right. Right. There's quite a few steps involved. But yes, Joe's now pro Trump again.

38:19He was pro Biden when Trump, because he was trying to get Biden to pardon. They wouldn't touch that with a 10 foot pole. But yeah, especially this time around. Yeah. Just for fun. Well, let's hope Tony. Let's hope Tony doesn't go to prison. I don't wish that on Tony. I haven't seen episode four. So I don't know. But when you guys were filming against spoiler or please, if you're watching the series, stop right now and scoot ahead five few minutes, when they found that Tonka was in the basement. And when I saw their film, when you guys are filming it, I was like, Jesus Christ. This lady is so crazy.

38:56She's showing everybody. I know. She's she's she has. I know. With like, I'll do respect. She's she just does not seem like a smart person. And she's almost like, like, if you gave her an IQ test, like, and then gave a champion IQ test, it'd be a toss up. You know, I mean, I think that's part of the problem. Because I don't think this lady understands the consequences of what she's doing. Just like she doesn't understand how crazy her eyelashes look. You know, like all of it is just there's some fuses that are missing. Some wires that aren't connected. And then because of the fact that at one point in time, at least, it was legal for her to do what she was doing.

39:38And they they become accustomed to being able to have. And then their identity revolves around they're the person that has all the monkeys and all the chimpanzees. It was just fucking weird. Oh, it's still legal. It is still it's still legal. I thought they changed it. No, there's no federal law preventing. Jesus Christ. You can own a fucking champ still. There's 20 or so states legally. Oh my God. I thought Missouri is one of them. Oh my God. But, you know, background, we we spent about four years making this documentary series. First of all, how do you start? How do you find out about these people?

40:14I go ahead. After Tiger King, how do you get anybody to talk to your camera? I've done a lot of out of people, Joe, but I did not know about monkey moms. And along the course of, you know, making Tiger King, I started filming some monkey moms. And I, I mean, like as you see in Jim Crazy, you just can't make them up. And so after Tiger King, I just thought, you know, let's scratch the surface. Let's check into these monkey moms again. Um, yeah. And so, you know, it's these women that dress up their monkeys like dolls, like John Bonnet Ramsey, like a little pageant doll. And they want them to be kids.

40:56And they seem to have the same pathology over and over and over. There's a lot of monkey moms out there that we did not film. And they have annually something called a monkey ball where they all come together with their monkeys. Anyway, we discovered them in the course of making Tiger King. And, um, yeah, I don't know. My grandmother had a monkey. Yeah. My grandmother had a monkey had the story a lot. She, she kept in the attic. Really? Yeah. Monkey's name was Chi Chi and Chi Chi used to eat gum. Like, Chi Chi, a piece of gum, Chi Chi would unwrap the gum and put the gum in his mouth or her mouth.

41:29I don't remember as a boy or girl. You know, kind of monkey. I do not. I was very small. Yeah. I was very young at the time. And I remember she had to get rid of it because it bit my cousin. Yeah. Well, that's what happens. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But Chi Chi couldn't be around anybody other than my grandmother. A grandmother was very eccentric. Yeah. And they're, and they're, they're territorial and they're territorial and they're protective of their owner. So, um, you know, when I was young in the 70s and 60s, 70s, 80s, you could buy a monkey in virtually any pet store across the United States.

41:58Oh, my God. And thank God people realized like your grandmother, they're not good pets. They could buy them in the newspaper. Yeah. And they're not good pets. I think my grandmother after her kids were grown, she just decided she wanted a kid forever. You know, if I had a guess. Wow. Yeah. If I had a guess. Yeah. Yeah. That's our, that's our kind of consensus. Yeah. Also a kid that doesn't talk back. Yeah. Yeah. It's a great book you, the book you'd love is by this guy who had a store in New York and retreflick. It's called they don't talk back. And it's these kind of chronicles of his experiences, you know, through the last, you know, there's a big animal, exotic animal dealership.

42:38They existed up until the 70s in New York City, but they had everything. Chimps, gorillas, elephants, and they sold stuff to the private sector and zoos. But yeah, I mean, you could walk into a Woolworth, right? And, and buy monkeys. They still to this day catch people with large animals in their apartments in New York City. Yeah. Like, wasn't there one real recently where a guy had a large reptile? Venomous snakes, yeah. Right. Was it snakes? The venomous snake bite, Eric? Some guy, well, there's one, that one guy, I think it was in Harlem who had a tiger in this house. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that there's a crazy image of the cops going up the fire escape and the tigers in the window.

43:16Yeah. And you see the tiger bearing its fangs and then going like, that glass is that fucking big man. That's that. That is so crazy. This thing is trapped in this like regular apartment with regular glass. Yeah. Like at any moment, the, the only thing keeping that thing out is it doesn't know that it could just smash that and get on that fire escape and just go run through the streets. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah. But the bizarre thing is that there's humans that want those. They want those. I mean, yeah. I mean, the tiger thing is more of like kind of a macho thing, I think.

43:54Well, what about Carol then? She's a woman. Yeah. She's kind of an anomaly. You know, it's funny. I like the, the lesser known cats. I interviewed Tippie Hendren, you know, in the course of doing all of this and her, you know, Zana do. It's called Shambhala with all of her cats. You know, and I know you've talked about this about Melanie Griffith growing up with lions. Yeah. And that crazy movie roar. Yeah. And that movie roar photograph is a fantastic movie roar. But yeah, when I interviewed Tippie Hendren, literally on her property in California, she lives with all these tigers and lions. She built a museum for herself.

44:31So she's got her own museum, the Tippie Hendren museum where I interviewed her. But yeah, there are some women, Tippie Hendren, Carol Baskin, but, you know, generally speaking, I think it's one man. Yeah. Well, I guarantee if you go through the Texas private collections, there's a bunch of good old boys. Yeah. Exactly. I believe that. Probably. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you've got some oil mine. You've got canned ranches in Texas. There's a lot of those. Yeah. There's a lot of, a lot of canned ranches, which is very odd. And some of them are fairly small, like a couple hundred acres. Yeah. And they keep animals there.

45:05Yeah. It's, in my mind, what that is is agriculture. Okay. It's, it's, it's just you're doing a different form of, of deer agriculture. You're not really hunting. You know, hunting to me is you go into the wild. You go into the woods and you experience real nature and it's, it's fascinating. It's enthralling. There's something about, it's also so lonely. There's something about being in those mountains just puts you in check. None of that exists. Well, yeah, canned ranch, you can go shoot like in South Africa, a lion. Right. And the lion was raised in a kind of domestic situation. And recently released.

45:44Yeah. So it just sits there. Yeah. You know, there's no sport in it. Hunting in the United States, you know, for elk or deer, you know, there's a lot of things people don't know about hunting, which is, you know, one, just obviously, the obvious statistic is that more wild lands are protected because of hunting. So yeah, you're killing a deer, but you're protecting all the other stuff. Well, the amount of money because of the Pitman Robertson Act, the amount of money that gets, I think it's 10 % of all sales of outdoor activities gets donated towards wildlife preservation. And this is the reason why we can have these enormous national forests where you have wildlife biologists establish what the healthy numbers of these animals are and how many people can go hunt them.

46:31And they also know because you have to, when you, say if you shoot a deer, you have to register, you shot the deer, they, you have a tag, they make sure that your tag is right. You got the right species, you got the right sex, the whole deal. And so they have a very accurate number of how many animals in there and they spend a lot of money doing this and these wildlife biologists do an absolutely incredible job. There's more white tailed deer in this country right now than they were when Columbus landed. Part of that is because of agriculture. That's where it gets weird. So agriculture, particularly I have a good buddy of mine who is, he's an archer, a professional archer and he lives in Iowa, Iowa, rather.

47:12I always get those confused. In Iowa, it's all farmlands, right? And they have enormous deer and they set these ranches up. He has a place that's like 600 acres. It's all, there's no fences, animals come and go. But they establish these food plots and they put these things in to make it a good place for deer to be so they can hunt them. So it's this weird sort of plan community. Sort of ethical bastardization of the wild, right? It's like dealing with the reality of what you have. You have untold thousands and thousands of monocrop agriculture acres. So thousands and thousands of acres of Monsanto corn.

47:52And they're all, these deer thrive there because when they chop down the corn, they don't chop it all down. And these deer, they go there after fresh feedings. They go there, you see them eating corn and the grass is grass everywhere. There's plenty and plenty of food. And a very low number of predators like Iowa does not have a lot of, they don't have wolves, they don't have a lot of animals that would sort of balance out the population of these animals. And so you have insane amounts of car accidents. Like when I was in, I went to visit my buddy there and just driving from the airport to his house.

48:26We saw like 50 fucking deer. And if you're going there around November, which is the rut, the men lose their mind. So the male deer, their horny as hell, they're crazy and the female are breeding. The female are running from the males and they're running right into traffic and the males are running after them and they're running right into traffic. It's kind of nuts. It's really nutty situation because it only exists because there's no predators. So if like California has this bizarre model and what California would like, I mean, California is, I think the only state that doesn't have a fish and game department, they have fish and wildlife.

49:06And so they treat it very differently instead of treating it as a renewable resource where people can go and get their own food and hunt animals in the wild. They treat it like we should have the animals take care of themselves. And so that's why it's illegal to kill a mountain lion in California and they have a large number of mountain lions. Probably I have not reported. I have mountain lions in my property. Yeah. All the time. They're dangerous. They're under reported. And they they are a predator and they will kill people. And they they have killed people. It's not often, but you know, if you're on a bike, the problem with being on a bike is you're moving a little too quick and their instincts take over.

49:42They think you're trying to run from them and they can't even help themselves. It's like a kitten with a ball yarn and their their instincts to clip in and they just go chasing after it. But I've seen outlines in the wild and it is a sobering sobering moment when you stare into the eyes of one of those things. You're like, whoa. What are you supposed to do? You can't do much, man. Make a lot of noise. You're not supposed to run. You don't run. If you have a weapon, you're, you know, you should really have that weapon ready because they will jump you. Every now and then they jump people. There's a crazy video.

50:13Yeah. Well, I believe two people were killed last year in the Pacific Northwest of all the big cats. I think jaguars kill the least people, which is crazy, which for some reason. But they're well, they also live in the least populated areas. For the most part. Yeah. At Mount Lions, yeah. Of course, they will kill someone. But, you know, typically they're not looking for people. Right. They're not looking for people. It's not like a tiger that, you know, has all its prey, you know, get trapped by, you know, the local people in India and they have to go out and try to find prey. And it's people oftentimes.

50:48And jaguars have to, at this point in time, have realized that people have bows and arrows and spears and every now and then if you go after a person, you can get jumped. And, you know, so they probably have picked like grizzly bears behave very differently in places where grizzly bears are hunted. So in the lower 48, it's illegal to hunt grizzly bears. So if they see you, you know, if you run into them in the wrong, they're not going to run away, they might run towards you. If, especially if you surprise them, it's very dangerous. And that's why, and they will treat you as food if they're really hungry.

51:18You know, you know, in the course of making tiger king, I would interview people about tigers, and how, you know, what it's like keeping 100 tigers. And people will always say to me, I'd rather have 100 tigers than one chimp. And that's because chimps, you know, and everyone thinks of a tiger so dangerous, but chimps can figure shit out. And one of the chronic problems keeping chimps is that they can figure out how to escape. And so you can never use a combination lock because they'll sit there all day and figure it out. And you've got to use oftentimes like three layers of locks. And I'm just bringing it back to chimps because, you know, people think, oh, it's a champ.

51:58It's so cute. It's in the circus. Trust me, it's a lot easier to have a tiger act than a chimp act. Oh, I could, I could imagine. And also when I was watching this lady's enclosure, I was looking at the steel that's drilled into wood. And I'm like, I could get out of that. I could get out of the 100%. The way, the way that thing is bolted into the woods, all you have to do is kick that door enough. You kick that door hard enough, and that wood will give it. It's the wood that you're, it looks like you're engaged in steel bars. But the steel bars are connected by wood. Wood's easy for a chimp to break.

52:33There's so much fucking stronger than us. If that thing knew that it could just grab those bars and slam and slam, it would have worked on that all day. 100 % it would have got through. You would have had to figure out a way, way, way better cage, especially the one that you put in your home. You know, I'll tell you a really weird story that I just never would have thought in a million years about a chimp. I was interviewing a guy in Kenya that had a chimpanzee. And the keeper was this blonde woman. And all the chimp I ever saw was this blonde woman. So he started, the guy gave the chimp playboy.

53:07And then it graduated to porn. And the chimp, because it never seen other chimps, it was, it was race and isolation, started thinking it was human. And started sexually identifying with this woman that was keeping it. And started, you know, started becoming sort of addicted to pornography. So we just didn't give you a but how crazy. And you know, like these chimps, they'll have a favorite show. Like, I remember a group of them in South Africa, all they watched was Avatar. But anyway, just to back to sort of how weird it is to keep a chimpanzee. You don't have a tiger getting addicted to human pornography.

53:45Right. Right. Watching Avatar all day long. So anyway, they're too intelligent. They're just way too intelligent, especially as they get five, six, and seven years old, they get really fucking dangerous. That lady in Connecticut, I had heard that she was, she slept in the bed with that, that chimpanzee. Well, that's where I was going. One of the things we did not cover, which I always wanted to know more about is what really is going on in that bed with that woman. I mean, I don't want to talk about it in too much detail here. Well, you have to ask yourself, yeah, ask yourself, like how weird does it get?

54:22Right. I mean, how weird does it get it? She wasn't she giving it Xanax and wine? Get that alone. You haven't seen that. She was giving it Viagra. I'm joking. Oh, I think, but you can't do that. You're going to get sued. Yeah, you cannot joke. But speaking of that, though, we were, you saw the second episode. We obviously, I heard that a chimpanzee can fuck 50 times a day. That's right. In the wild, I saw one, like, so maybe they don't need Viagra. Well, primates are very promiscuous in chimpanzees in particular. If you notice that chimpanzees have the largest balls of any primate, and there's a reason for that.

55:06The more promiscuous the female chimpanzees are, the more sexually active the males become, and the bigger their testicles are. So there's like a direct correlation between the size of the male's testicles, and they think that exists with human beings as well, but it's one more problematic to examine. So that's my problem. Yeah, if you're out of a bunch of ladies that are a bunch of sluts, you might get fired up. I never got married. I think that with chimpanzees, you're dealing with these incredibly complex social structures. I'm sure you guys have seen chimp nation, which is fantastic. It's so good.

55:46It's so good because it is a rare documentary that had this established element in that these scientists had been embedded in this group of chimpanzees for 20 years. So these scientists had very specific rules. You don't look them in the eye. You don't get any closer than 20 yards. If they come towards you, move away. Don't ever have food. There's like a bunch of rules. As long as you have those rules, they behave completely normally, and you're just a thing. You're like a tree or a bird, or something they're not interested in, which is really interesting. Yeah, amazing. Because they got incredible footage of the social interactions.

56:23They got a detailed analysis of how they established dominance and who's in control, and we used to think it's always the biggest strongest chimp, but no, it's not. It's ones that form unions and bonds and communities. Very interesting. It's so much like us. I think also, it's just so amazing about that film is, and I give them an incredible ton of credit. Most people that go out to do a documentary don't have the capacity to film that many days. Like they covered that. I don't know. It was like hundreds of days or something. Yeah, years and years. And I think you know, they really invested the time and they deserve the credit because they put in that amount of time.

57:04For us to do even, you know, trim crazy, we filmed how many days? It's probably close to 250 days. I mean, most people can't do that. Right. Right. So I mean, it's incredible resource suck. Like how much did it cost? That's where I'm going. Yeah, my god. But in order to make a documentary this, this way, you have to catch it while it's happening, you know, contemporaneously. So you have to be there. If you snooze, you lose. If you're not there, you're not going to make chimp crazy. Right. Right. Or what's it called? Chim nation. Yeah. Chimp empire. Empire. Yeah. Well, see, there's two, right? Chimp empire, right?

57:44Chimp empire is a chimp nation and another one. Or chimp empire. Yeah, this is the, yeah. That's just one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, the way that, see, the thing about the difference between your show is you need someone who's compelling. And so you have to find someone and like, and you, what's their name again? Tanya crazy, Tanya, you know, and Joe Exotic, you're like, you need someone who's like the, the figurehead, like with the photo that you guys have on the promo of her laying down in the chimp behind her. It's perfect. Yeah. It's perfect. I mean, you need that nutty person to compel you because there's part of all of us that recognizes that that thought would come into our minds, but then rational thought would go into play.

58:29Like, you can't do this. They're dangerous. They're big. They get older. You can't control them. What happens to them? It's unfair for them to be, and then you go, I don't want to chimp. But if you're dull minded, if you got a nine volt brain and you look at this, like, I am going to take, they're more important to me than my own babies. Like when she says stuff like that, you're like, oh, well, you shouldn't even have a dog. You like, you definitely should be a lot of vote. No, it's interesting. You say you have to find those characters, but you also have to find a story. I mean, you can talk about this is how wide a net we cast because after Tiger King, it wasn't like we just jumped into this chimp mom world.

59:06We were filming, you know, marked the shark and, you know, we were, we were interested in the animal human relationship in variety of forms. I think we, we, we, and you see an episode one of the first things we, we shot years before we even met Tanya was this woman, this part of the circus family, Pam Roser, you know, watching 2001 Space Odyssey with her chimpanzee chance. Yeah. Yeah. It's a, I mean, talk about sobering experience. I'm, you know, me and Carl distance with chance the chimpanzee 15 years old pounding a, basically a modified trailer home, the floor echoing. Yeah. The loudness was, was that of that sound on the floor was so loud I'd take my head set off.

59:54Yeah, it was a lot scarier. And you were there. It was a lot scarier to film chimps and tigers. The crew didn't have a problem going into an tiger enclosure because the thing about tigers as long as they're about under the, your age, the age four, even though it looks like a full -grown tiger, they, you know, they haven't gone through puberty yet. They haven't gotten the tiger, you know, mentality of killing you. But a chimp, anyway, the, the, the chimp filming was a much more difficult one. Well, they're also like human characters and, and library. And you don't know what's going to happen. They're on the unpredictable kind of leashes.

1:00:29Well, it's also how they evolved. I mean, that's what kept them alive. You watch chimp nations, like those sort of instincts as it keeps them alive. Oh, sure. Very murderous. Well, we didn't really know how murderous they were until Attenborough. When David Attenborough did that series, I think it was in the 90s. When he captured the chimps eating monkeys. Yeah, this is one of the things that when I had the guy from chimp nation on, I discussed it with him. He's like, I go, how often do the monkeys? He's like, we couldn't even show it all. We, we, it would just be like the whole show would be chimps eating monkeys because that's what they want to do.

1:01:05They want to eat monkeys. That's their primary source of protein. They like fruit, fruits, great. But they also like monkeys. They call it bus monkeys. Yeah. And they eat, you know, I'm a reptile guy. And in the range of those chimps in the wild, there's a tortoise. And this tortoise, it's like our box turtles, but it's much bigger, but it's called a hingeback tortoise. And it literally closes up like a rock. Like you, you can't see it any flesh. The chimps will grab that tortoise. And they'll just bang it against the tree and just crack it up and like a cattle up. Wow. And they're, they're, I'm just saying that because, yes, they're really hardcore when it comes to the way they predate on other animals.

1:01:43And they're about as strong as a 500 pound man with, it's so right. Yeah. It's so insane for us. We had a chimp on the set of news radio like 96 or something like that. There was a baby chimp. It was a baby and it was in a diaper. And this chimp climbed on my back and whacked me a couple of times in the back, just playing. It was just having fun. And I remember first of all, the feeling of holding it is like it was made out of steel wires. It wasn't made out like a baby. You know, you pick up a baby. Babies are like soft little, you pick up a three year old. They'll soft little things and you hold on to them and they're weak.

1:02:22These things were strong as fuck like in a bizarre way. We like to look at something that's close to our size and think, oh, I could probably overpower that. You know, oh, I know how to fight. I'll fight that fucking chimp off. Now you have zero chance. It's a different thing. Everything about it is different. The muscle structure is completely different. The tendon structure is completely different. And the amount of force it can generate is pretty incredible. They also want to fuck with you. They also want to, I was just going to say people always talk about like with a bear kill the lion or with the, you know, the bear killed the tiger.

1:02:59I think chimpanzees, you know, and you're into obviously fighting. And you know, I think they are the most diabolical fighters because, you know, I don't know what a chimp would do to a grizzly, but a chimp goes after your genitals, your fingers, your face. They know how to fuck you up like nothing else. Yeah, they know how to debilitate you and take away what makes you a human. Yeah. Yeah. And they also have zero remorse. So they're like a human and that they can think, but they have zero empathy. And they're fucking dangerous. I'm writing this. You know, it was so fascinating. You think knowing all this about chimps later, remember this Eric, we were talking about, well, there must be like reported human deaths in the United States with chimp attacks.

1:03:42And we couldn't find any. It's only it's only it's only little. I mean, there are globally, but globally, a lot of them in Africa, little kids get snatched and stuff. Kids get eaten. Kids get eaten. Yeah. But in the US, there has been no really human death caused by chimpanzee. Now, what was fascinating, and you haven't watched this yet, but in episode four, we kind of go, it comes like from delusion to reality and it's heavy. We filmed our first chimpanzee funeral. This episode is brought to you by Visible. Is your wireless full of stuff you didn't sign up for? Don't need or don't understand.

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1:06:31If they detect anything suspicious, they can act right away using spotlights, talking to loiterers, or even calling the police. Enhance your routine and get peace of mind with SimplySafe. Get 50 % off your new SimplySafe system with professional monitoring plus your first month free at SimplySafe .com -slash -rogan. That's SimplySafe .com -slash -rogan for 50 % off and your first month free. There's no safe, like SimplySafe. And what we didn't show, which I just remember this now, everyone that would come up to say their peace, which share a story where they were attacked by that animal. It was so the kind of juxtaposition of this celebration of life and these attacks in this context of a situation they shouldn't have ever been in.

1:07:25It was kind of remarkable. An animal attacks in general across the board in roadside zoos and private sector are completely under -reported because people don't want their animals taken away. So if a tiger attacks someone and they have a huge laceration, they'll go to the hospital saying it was a chainsaw. Because the second they say it was my tiger or my champ, they run the risk of losing that animal. You also have the problem with less than extraordinary people being addicted to extraordinary circumstances. So if you have a boring ass fucking life in some middle and nowhere town, but you also have a lion.

1:08:04You know, like all of a sudden like life's pretty interesting, you know? I mean, and that's jokes on it, right? Well, jokes on it I think is pretty smart. He's odd for sure, but intelligent. But in Tony's case, like what would that lady be like if she didn't have chimps? Like it is the focal point of her life to the point where she neglected her own biological children. Yeah, it gives her an identity. Yeah, in a weird way, in a weird way, in a very compelling way. And when people live boring ass lives, things like that seem like something that that's who I am. Like that's me because it's extraordinary experiences from persons that are, you know, it's like, with Joe.

1:08:48I think we like experiences first of all. There's a part of evolution where human beings, part of our lust for innovation and for constant improvement of our environment and circumstances is we like extraordinary experiences. I think it's what made people successful. I think the more daring and the more addicted you were to extraordinary experiences, the more likely you were to find new hunting grounds, the more likely you were to conquer neighboring tribes, the more likely you to survive and attack. I think human beings like extraordinary experiences. We like comfort, but not as much as we like extraordinary experiences.

1:09:28But having some of these animals is like chick bait. You know, it's like a little pooch gets you a lot of kooch, like a guy that's walking a dog. Joe had tigers to get boys. Which is so wild that where he got straight guys. I mean, that guy had some fucking game. Exactly. Yeah, I guess I guess I see your point, you know, come on. If you have a champ, a baby champ, you're walking around Austin, Texas. Sure. You get people come up to you and go, oh, Joe, I will love your little champ. That's interesting. I want to go out with you. What a weird way to try to attract. Well, like, they always say that about puppies.

1:10:01That's why guys bring a puppy to the park. I mean, I'm more interested with Carl now, you know, which is what your motivation over there with that baby dog. Isn't it interesting when you see Carl interact with Marshall? Because Marshall is like, I don't want to hurt you. I don't want nothing to do. It's to stop biting me. What are you doing? Yeah, you can see it. Yeah, but we got two different kinds of things, you know, like one of them is like a little bulldog. It's a psychopath. And the other one is a golden retriever is like a love sponge. Like all he wants to do is be your friend. He wants to be your friend and unless you're squirrel.

1:10:33And that's really interesting. You watch his reaction to squirrels, like his intensity when it comes to like squirrels and birds. He is so. It's a movement, right? Is it's the movement? Is that what's interesting? It's just instincts. It just fires up that part in their DNA that knows that that's what they do. But the bizarre thing with the retrievers is it's not to eat it. It's to bring it to you. It's always to bring it to you. Like one time I got home and I let the dog out. I opened up the back door and I just had to take a leak. So I took a leak and then as I flushed washed my hands, opened the door.

1:11:07He's standing there with a squirrel on his mouth. Like he got a squirrel that quick. Wow. He's so happy to show you. He was so happy. And I was like, dude, what did you do? He was like, what did I do? I'm like, what did you do, man? And so I got rid of these ones. It's just nobody had a teach from that. He's locked in like that's what he wants to do. He wants to go get squirrels and he wants to bring them back to you. It's it's a weird thing because it's like you you understand predatory instincts like cats have them. They're the worst. Cats are they have killed so many fucking birds. It's something like a bill.

1:11:42It's multiple billions of mammals and birds are killed every year by outside cats. The first thing that kills, you know, songbirds, birds is glass window, skyscraper. It's a glass window. Second is domestic cats and they are killing machines and they really do take a toll on wild birds. I went to get ready for this podcast. I went down a dirty road last night, a wormhole of cats, predatory cats. And there's these compilations of cats just jacking pigeons, jacking squirrels, jacking everything. Everything is so bad unless they're indoors domestic cats. They've, you know, in Hawaii cats are the reason why so many species in Hawaii went extinct.

1:12:26Yep. Yep. You know, they're just in Australia. Australia. They brought them in in Australia to deal with certain animals and then they got out of control and now in Australia they hunt them. Dodo birds went extinct because of domestic cats that were introduced into Mauritius and you know, 200, 300 years ago, whatever Dodo birds went extinct. But no, they're killing machines. They're machines. Sorry to interrupt you. No, no, no, no worries. But like, so like, their predatory instincts are more reasonable. Like, I understand that they're cats and that's what cats do. But the weird thing about a retriever is he's not doing it to eat it.

1:13:00He's doing it to bring it to me. Like, I didn't even have to teach him to bring a ball back. Like, he learned within like the first two or three throws. If I throw the ball, he brings it back to me. It's just in it's brought into them. Whereas every other dog that I've had, I had to teach him and you throw the ball, you're like, come on, bring it back. Come on, bring it back. You bring it back. You get a treat and they understand, you know, you praise them. They and then eventually they understand commands and they have this like pathway that you've carved into their system of chasing the ball, bringing it back.

1:13:31We're going to have fun. Chase the ball, bring it back. Marshall, it was in there. It was already in there. But that's his programming, right? Which is crazy. Which is so much of what we found so interesting about the justification for this love that a lot of the subjects we've covered had for these chimpanzees was that they love me. You know, they do these things with me. I've trained them to believe that they have feelings for me and I have feelings for them. We have this understanding and I feel what we've realized is this kind of imbalance of this mutuality of caregiving that I think exists with a lot of our subjects that we cover but also some of the chimpanzees.

1:14:13It's very incredibly selfish around the symmetry of needs. But it's so disturbing, you know, you have a beautiful lab, a dog, that in Otonia says, you know, constantly how much she loves this chim talk, but the chimpanzee is like incarcerated in this cage. It's like, Tanya, if you really love this chimpanzee, Tanya loves you back. Why the cage? You don't have a cage for your dog. And it just seems so obvious. Tanya, this chimpanzee does not love you the way you love it. Well, I think it does, but it also doesn't have a choice, right? So if Tanya lived in the jungle, if she had a shack in the jungle and the chimpanzee lived in the jungle wild and free, how much was a chimpanzee visitor?

1:14:55First of all, it wouldn't be eating chicken nuggets and drinking Coca -Cola, which is weird too, that she's feeding this thing. And she said it has congestive heart failure. Spoiler alert again. Still good. You still got to watch it, folks. But if you give a person that they fucking get sick, like nothing you're doing to that chimpanzee is natural. The cage is not natural. The food's not natural. Nothing's natural. You know, one of the saddest things for me was when she was showing it Instagram Reels and just scrolling through Reels and the chimps just staring at the screen. That was the weirdest one.

1:15:29That's really disturbing. That was for whatever, but me, why I do that? I know that that's a lot of that's a lot of the sentiment we see from people as a reaction to that we are basically doing that ourselves. Oh yeah, yeah, we're doing it ourselves. You're not looking at your son. You can make a choice. I'm going to put this down. I'm going to go out real world and have fun with human beings and have a good time with my friends. You can make those choices. The chimp doesn't have a choice. It's essentially a prisoner for no reason and it likes the guard. And that chimp, you know, Tonka was looking at its kids and that footage, you know, whether it and Tonka knew it or not, but and Instagram was looking at a bunch of things, but just staring at the screens.

1:16:04But I don't think it probably understood that those are his kids, but it probably did remember what it was like to have babies, you know, and to be outside. Yeah, sitting there in that cage in the basement looking at these chimps, washing them or satis that's outside, you know, we both still talk to Tonka almost daily or communicate with Tonka. Oh my god. And it's the most bizarre communication because, you know, we don't, everyone thinks I lied to Tonka about this film. She would have talked to me anyway. I'm convinced of that. And when I did come into the picture, she didn't skip a beat and she was like, oh, it's you.

1:16:39Let's keep filming for another year and a half. But she continues to talk with us and we continue to tell her Tonka, you know, maybe this is an opportunity for you to rethink and reinvent yourself, you know, like it's, anyway, it's really interesting. Well, it doesn't seem like she has a lot of self -reflection with all due respect, which, you know, it's hard not to be compassionate with a lot of these people to be honest. Right. It's really hard because they're humans. They're humans. Well, especially Tonka, because she let us into her life in such an intimate way that, you know, it was, you know, she was really generous that way.

1:17:19So it isn't black and white. There's a lot of gray. I understand an audience reaction, though. And you can have those kind of conflicting views on it. But being part of making it as, you know, we're partially complicit to it too, as well. I mean, in a way of sharing that story in a way. Well, you know, there's the age -old term with great power comes great responsibility. It is a great responsibility to hold a large chimpanzee in your house. That is a great power. It is an enormous responsibility. And she should not have the option to have that responsibility. She's not capable of managing that situation.

1:17:57It's, it's, I don't think anybody's capable of it. I think the same way I just think dolphins were lucky that they're nice. That's what I think. We're lucky that they're nice because they shouldn't, they should be killing us every chance they can too. They are. They're not just that, but in phantracide, you know, the the reason why female dolphins are so promiscuous. Well, male dolphins, when they find a female, if the female has babies, she will not breed for it. I think it's a long period of time.

1:18:28I think the males will kill the babies to force her into estrus. So she will start breeding again. So what the females do to counteract that is to have sex with as many male dolphins as they can. So they have sex with all the male dolphins. They're not monogamous in any way, stretch or form. They just go and fuck as many guys they can. So those guys will protect their babies because they don't know if that's their baby or not because they know they've had sex with her. But if they have not had sex with her and then she has babies, they will kill that baby. Are any animals monogamous? Because they used to think penguins, penguins are, but they only do it for like a year.

1:19:01They're monogamous for like a year. Because they also look exactly the same, which is a trap. They used to they used to think Macau, parrots from monogamous said swans, and then they started doing the genetics and they realized they cheat like hell. Yeah, I'm sure they do. It doesn't it doesn't seem to serve any purpose evolutionarily for them to be monogamous. It seems contrary to the idea of natural selection. Like you should be wanting to, if you have potent genes, you should want to spread those genes as much as possible. So that means we shouldn't be monogamous. Well, human beings, we've fallen into this weird thing where we're more than an animal in that we are an animal, but we're an animal that expresses our thoughts and feelings to each other and we are evolving.

1:19:44We are clearly different in that we are animals, but we can manipulate our environment like no animal that's ever existed. We can travel to any place in the world, which no animal could ever do on its own. We can do all kinds of things that other animals can't do, but more importantly, we communicate. Yeah, we communicate stories. Yes, and we empathize with each other. I mean, we recognize things in other people, even heinous people, even people that don't like, like whether it's Joe Exotic or Tony, you recognize like, I see she's not I get it, you know, she's just a person who's all fucked up.

1:20:17Even that crazy drunk lady who had the one that attacked her daughter, like what happened to her? You know, like what was her? You know, you know, it couldn't have been good. And she's the one person out there who's still alive, who I really don't want to hear from. Yeah, because I really wonder right now, what is she thinking? Well, the calmness, while her daughter was being attacked on the phone, the calmness of that phone call was just shocking. Suspicious. Um, I think, you know, when that lady from the liquor store was talking about how much that lady drinks, like who knows what she's even responsible for anymore?

1:20:52Like she's, she's, she's got to be out of her fucking mind all the time if she's drinking that much booze. I think she wanted out with the chimp. I think the she was as caged as depressed as the chimp possibly in that house after 15 years living with this chimp that she thought, you know, was her son. And then later was dressing, you know, the chimp up with the same clothing as her deceased husband. I think she wanted out. And somehow she figured it out. Well, the life choices is really remarkable. They're, they're, they're also basically in cages, the, the humans taking care of the chimpanzee.

1:21:28Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. And the same goes for Sandy, Sandy Herald. You know, this, what was so great about revisiting that story in Connecticut, you know, we basically, we were set to come out with this show in March this year. And we were basically wrapped in November and we were going through finishing. And we suddenly got access to the entire Travis story. We work with this guy who wrote this incredible article, a New York magazine article named Dan Lee. It's one of the best written articles about Travis. It's called Travis the Menace. He has no attribution of sources. You don't know who is talking.

1:22:07So it's the kind of foundational piece for the Travis story. We tracked him down. He says, I have everyone that was part of that story and they have archive. Do you want to do it? And so we basically said, you know, is this going to make our story better? Meaning that we're going to have to extend for at least four or five months to do this right and postpone our entire delivery schedule. And once we got into it, it was so worth it because we got this total intimate view of what it was like to be in Sandy's world. Yeah. This archive, the video that you see has never been seen before. This portrait of a family, this kind of very complicated, complex family life that's been inhabited by Travis, which was a descendant of Connie Casey's place in Missouri.

1:22:49If you think about that, where our starting point was for this whole project was always around, how do we understand where captive primates came from in America? Connie Casey was this place, this kind of, you know, breeding ground for all of these animals that were kind of cycled through Hollywood. And what I found very interesting is this kind of this lineage that led to Travis. Travis was sold to Sandy and then you see this. It's so incestuous. It's so incestuous that they're all connected and you'll see a little bit of an episode four. There it is. Travis the Manus. And it's a remarkable story.

1:23:24This is Sandy who bought Travis from Connie. Connie, you know, it was this Suzy was the way. How much does that photograph freak you out? Yeah. When you see that chimp holding that baby at any minute and just decide to pull out baby's head off. And when chimp smile, it's actually a sign of aggression. It's not like us. We, we, you know, smile because we're happy. That's not a happy chimp doing that. So he's trained. He's trained. Yeah. He's trained to, but he's trained to smile. He's not necessarily aggressive right here. Yeah. He's trained to show his teeth because it's cute. Right. It's more of a, um, grimace is more of a more of a happy smile like us.

1:24:06Have you? Right. Right. Right. Right. So it was fascinating to us to get access to this story. We get, we, we go into it and, um, just drinking so much. That's disturbing. Yeah. He got too big. Well, you're giving him the standard American diet. But look at the canines compared to ours. Look how they're daggers. Oh, well, the bite force, everything. I mean, everything about them is, yeah. We are so watered down by the evolutionary process. And I was real aware of that when I was touching that two -year -old chimp with diapers, like real wear. Yeah. Sure. It's a different thing. And when you're taking this thing and you're, you know, it's a time bomb.

1:24:43You have like four years where you can control it, maybe five, right? And then they say after five, it's just like you're basically rolling the dice anytime someone comes over your house. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Just so crazy. But he was, you know, this, this classic story was this kind of gothic fairy tale in Stanford Connecticut, which was so unusual because it's a suburb of Manhattan. You know, everyone thought this was in the South or wherever it was happening in Stanford, Connecticut. And Sandy had this kind of void in her life. She buys Travis and raises her part of the family. And you see the story.

1:25:15The same arc as every other chimp story in a family setting. They get too mature and they have to, you know, the thing that I thought you'd appreciate in terms of our kind of this idea that we show in this story really well, I think is this, this chimp is happy and connected to the community because he's free. He's socializing. He's a town celebrity. He's at work with Sandy in the Toe shop, you know, answering phones, you know, filling out paperwork. The mascot of the Toe shop desire me motors. Right. Yeah. He's airbrushed everywhere on trash. And he lives a cool life. He lives a cool life. And one day everyone gets to see the chimp, right?

1:25:53And then until one day he gets too aggressive. And he, this, this incredible story, which we don't cover in the doc, but he's in this intersection, very busy intersection in Connecticut. A little boy throws a can of coke over to the car with the chimp. The chimp gets out. You know, stops traffic, you know, and it's covered in the news and it's a joke. Everyone's like, oh, my God, it's planted at the end. The chimp is trying to get a hold of the kid. The chimp's trying to like, he's irritated. Why, why would you bother the chimpanzee? He threw a can of coke at him. He runs out of the car, trying to figure out what's going on.

1:26:23Meanwhile, Sandy gets an ice cream cone, brings back in the car, and everything's cool. Two hours later. Two hours later, right? So wait, the state of Connecticut says, no way, you can't have this chimp anymore out in public. You got to put him in home. So this, this, this chimp is out in space for a majority of his life and then built to confinement for the majority of his life. And so fast forward, and I'll spare you kind of the other stuff that we learned. But you know, what, what everyone kind of talks about and revisiting media at the time is he, it was annexed. It was the wine glasses. It was drunk.

1:26:56It was, uh, maybe the relationship, maybe the relationship went wrong. But he grabbed car keys. He wanted to go for a ride. He could drive a car. He wanted to get the fuck out of there. Yeah. That's what happened. Right. And the person who he runs into first, Jarla, represents confinement. He was a nanny. Right. Right. So what do you think's going to happen? He was also reported. He was fucking or he left already. He was like cruising around and he was in the graveyard, fucking with the guy who was digging graves. That's what we heard. That's what we heard. Yeah. Insanely bored, just like a person to stuck in a cage.

1:27:28Yeah. And chimp is when they're bored and you always see it, they rock. And so you see if you're watching that section of chimp crazy, Travis is just sitting there rocking, which is like a tech, you know, big cats do a figure eight over and over and over. You know, chimps do this rocking. And when you see that, you know, that's a really desperately depressed chimp. But we love, we love this, you know, I'm sorry, love, but we were, we're interested in this, in this tension because we think we can control things. I mean, that's why if you've seen the movie, no, this great footage with this chimp, Gordy, which he covers and is a through line in the show, it's inspired based on this, this whole idea of spectacle and humans that can control things.

1:28:09Nope. In that scene with Gordy, the chimp is probably one of the most beautiful displays and, you know, thematically that I've seen of, it's horrible. It's very tragic. But the one person that has the 15 year old chimp in their house, how would they been able to avoid all that? She's careful. I mean, she, she's 77 years old, Pam Rose, there. When she was seven years old, she was asked what she wants to do with her life in this circus animal family. And she says, I want to train chimps. I want to do something hard. I want to do something difficult, the rest of her family train horses and elephants.

1:28:46And that was culturally, but that's a really good question. How is it that Pam has? Okay, you're thinking about more different, different measures, but like, I'm thinking about attacks. Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. So really good question because I always wondered that about Pam Rose there. How come she's the one person that has sort of been immune to it or has she? I think she's got some, you know, look, I think she's lucky. I think it's the best way. I don't know what happens behind the scenes, to be honest. I think, you know, to be fair, I think I don't know, but I do know that when I watched her interaction, you know, there's a real like understanding and it's and she has a leash on them.

1:29:23I mean, well, she also, they are neutered. She, they, these cats straight it. Yeah, I'm sure they're, they do, you know, they remove their canines often times. They do have to alter them to be able to continue to work with them. They're modified. I mean, I should say there's a lot of dark parts of our story that we didn't go into. Like, one of the things we learned was that so many of the monkeys that are being sold, you know, by Tanya and others are coming across the border from Mexico, just, you know, along with probably drugs. And more recently, in recent time, we've seen a lot of central American and Mexican species coming into the U .S.

1:30:04So there's a pipeline. You know, I'm sort of saying what we, what we look, so, you know, yes, it is, we didn't realize also how dark this was coming out of it because we were so close to it and the reaction by people, it's very heavy. So I'm, we're all desensitized from, from seeing this. There's some really interesting stuff that happens in for joy. I hope you finish it, including another attack, but this time with a person that we all know. And I'm teasing me. I'm teasing you it's pretty good. It's pretty good. I'll probably want to watch it. Okay, it's pretty good. It's pretty good. It's, it's, it's, it's a part of our body gets bitten off.

1:30:44Oh, come on, man. I'm not kidding. Similar to Trump. And oh, yeah, you know, you're giving away too much. You fucked it up, fucked up the whole show. I'm going to look at her here, the whole show now. So is that lady in with the 15 year old champion? Is that the only one that you know of that keeps a full grown adult and has it just wander around with everybody? We've learned more. It's also castrated. To be clear, Pam doesn't live in, the chip doesn't live in her house. Like, like, it's in there sometimes. Yeah, sometimes. And how much of the castrating it changes its behavior? I think significantly.

1:31:22Because Buck in Oregon was castrated and then it, you know, the Connecticut chimpanzee was that castrated? Probably, but Buck was castrated and started wearing a shock collar. In order to manage a chimp, as you say, after four or five years old, they typically altered remove the canines, castrate them, shock collars. It's so crazy. Like, fixing a dog is so commonplace. People don't even think twice. Oh, is your dog neutered? Oh, you're a good pet owner, you know, that way your dog's not going to have unwanted puppies. Yeah. But fixing it chimpanzee, like, what are you doing? Like, what did you do to them?

1:31:55It's like fixing your, but also, by the way, fixing the equipment. Think about where the medical care they get, you know, the guy who's a horse vet is the guy working at a chimpanzee. If you're lucky. If you're lucky. If you're lucky. Yeah. So if you think about the care, it's really horrible. But I was going to add to what you were saying, Eric. One thing that we learned through the process about kind of what is this about? More than, mainly, you know, we're talking about this very niche subject matter of captive chimpanzees in America, which we learned. They're really only about 1 ,300 remaining in captivity, which includes those who are already in sanctuaries.

1:32:31In the U .S., about half of that 1 ,300. And big zoos. And big zoos have about 250 of them still. So in terms of the kind of roadside zoo private home environments between, you know, less than 100 chimpanzees that remain in captivity. So to answer question, there might be more, but it's hard to type the chimpanzees. But globally, there's still many chimps in Thailand and all over the world that are, you know, so the U .S., at least there's less and less in this. There's less and less. The primates in general in terms of, you know, monkeys as pets. It's, you know, it's reported somewhere around 15 ,000 people in America have primates as chimpanzees as pets.

1:33:0915 ,000. 15 ,000 according to the American welfare animal welfare institute. So that's what we're finding. But, you know, through that, we had to zoom out. And I think that what we've learned, what I've learned personally about organizations that are doing something to protect wild lands and protect wild populations of chimpanzees. There's a lot of great ones out there. So we've been supporting a program that's doing 12 projects sites in Africa, $10 million, $10 ,000 chimpanzees. And that's what we're hopeful for. I mean, Africa is basically going to be China one day. What do you do, though, with animals that have been kept in captivity their whole life?

1:33:50You can't really introduce them to the wild, can you? It depends on the species. Certainly not. I mean, chimpanzees. Certainly not after the castrate. Not chimpanzees. They've done all these projects. But chimpanzees, definitely not. I don't know if you like any of the other movies that we're done about these scientific experiments people have in their homes in the 70s and 80s, bringing chimps and reintroducing them into the wild. It doesn't work. It's ends horribly. Well, there's a place in Africa. There's sort of an island in a, you know, there's a, it's like a fresh water river where they have released chimps.

1:34:19But, you know, chimps that are just placed in Africa. But yeah, to release them actually back into a population of wild chimps hasn't been done successfully for sure. Not with chimps. Have they done it with cats? That's a good, you know, there's that famous, you know, image of Putin releasing a tiger in Russia that was captive. They have done it with cats. Actually, I work with an organization that's been releasing jaguar. It's back in the northern Argentina where jaguars have now disappeared. But the jaguar program is, it's very, they do it very carefully and they put the jaguar in this enormous enclosures and let them capture a wild prey before they release them.

1:35:04It takes a lot of time. Well, I mean, we were talking about house cats earlier. Oh, house cats. No, no, no, no, I wasn't saying that. I just meant cats and jaguars. But I'm saying that house cats, which are really completely domesticated come to a pet them. If you let them loose, they survive fine. Yeah, there's a fair of cats. They all have instincts to kill and eat things. Yeah. So to imagine cats would probably be one of the easiest ones to reintroduce to the wild. But then you have things that are accustomed like bears. One of the problems with people that live in rural communities is when bears start attacking your dumpsters and your garbage cans.

1:35:38They know food is there and you can't get rid of them. They will come back to that no matter what. You can't scare them off. You scare them off. You're almost scared for an hour. They'll be back. They know their food there. Well, we live in California. We have bears, black bears, not grizzly bears. And we have mountain lions. And almost every night you'll see on our streets when there's a certain night of the week when the garbage comes out, all the garbage cans are tipped over because of the bears. And you're right, you're right. They once they learn that, then they have a pattern and they go after those dumpsters.

1:36:06Well, you know, California used to have big, big brown bears. California's state flag is a grizzly bear. This is crazy. And we work with an organization that's trying to bring them back to California. Shuttle down folks. Shuttle down. We just keep them alive where they are. Yeah. Don't get nutty. Well, do you think that want to reach these animals? Like, okay, it's just you have to understand you're you're playing God, you're throwing. And there's a reason it went extinct because the the last grizzly bear in California was shot about a hundred years ago and it's because they eat people. The vet California's named after the last guy who died from a grizzly bear attack.

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1:38:40I think his name is Stephen Leveck. And he got fucked up. They were big, you know, big brown bears and we killed them all because they were killing people. And I'm not saying you should kill them all. I'm not saying what we did was good. But once you've established an ecosystem that if you make the, I believe I like humans more than I like other animals. This is my thought. I believe that we're more important to each other than animals are to us. It doesn't mean that I don't care about animals. But if you start bringing in things that are going to eat people, I'm like, hey, like this is not good for us.

1:39:16It's not good for us. We don't have to reintroduce them to places. You know, I think a better solution would be let's make sure that wherever they live, naturally, their populations are fine. I think that's probably the better solution. There's been some success of reintroducing wolves into Montana, you know, the Yellowstone reintroduction in the 1990s. Really interesting. Like they, they did have an overpopulation problem of ungulates because bears can only eat so many of them and wolves are much more clever and they act together. And it's kind of balancing out for now. We work with Turner and Danger species, Ted Turner.

1:39:52And we work very closely with this guy, Mike Phillips and Montana, who's been probably the key guy to bring back gray wolves into this part of, you know, the western part of the United States. But yeah, it's been without, I mean, I know because we do do this that even gray wolves, there's a lot of controversy from ranchers. Imagine, imagine bringing back big grizzlies brown bears to California. Yeah, it's going to be a problem. But people that live in urban areas don't understand what their problem is. Like this is the problem that Vancouver has. So British Columbia outlawed brown bear hunting.

1:40:28You can hunt black bears because people eat black bears and you can eat brown bears as well, but most people don't. And they, so they have in their mind hunting grizzly bears is in line with what they want to call trophy hunting, which is gross. You're just killing an animal so you can stuff it. It's gross. We all agree, it's gross. But the reality of grizzly bears in rural areas, I have a good friend who lives in northern BC. He lives in like a very rural area. He's like, they're fucking dangerous. He had a shoot one that was trying to break into his cabin from three feet away. He shot a large grizzly bear trying to get into his cabin and eat him from three feet away.

1:41:06He said they're really bold now because they haven't hunted them for a few years. So if you're running into a four or five -year -old male, they don't know what it's like to be hunted. There's not, no one has any feelings of being nervous around human beings. And you remember the movie The Grizzly Man, right? Yes. Timothy Treadwell. That's a fascinating. He was lunch. That's my favorite unintentional comedy. Yeah, because it's where the Herzog, I think, made that movie funny on purpose. Of course. That's like art. It's a really good movie. But I never forgot watching it in New York City. I was watching it at a theater.

1:41:41The whole time I was just saying, like, oh my god, like I just was speaking, I was angry with this guy. You know, he was worried about his bandana or his whatever he was worried about. I was so pissed watching it, but it was a good movie. But it's the same thing. It's a less than extraordinary person who gets attached and addicted to extraordinary experiences. You're constantly around. I mean, he got some incredible footage. That guy got some amazing footage. He needed some fucking hard camping. Okay, that guy was out there rough in it for a long -ass time in a tent surrounded by monsters living in the Grizzly Man.

1:42:18He's a maniac. Yeah, talking baby talk to the bears. He pulled it off. Pulled it off for a long time. But you knew what was going to happen. If you watch that, like, eventually something's going to decide to eat him. Right. And then that's exactly what happens. It's like these chips with these women. Similar, but at least that guy's going to where they live. Yeah, of course. You know, I don't have any problem with someone deciding to do that. If you're that fucking crazy and you want to throw yourself into the system and maybe live with them for as long as it lasts, I mean, maybe it also is suicide by bear, right?

1:42:51Because that guy seemed really depressed and didn't seem like he was having a good time. Yeah, but he had the bear eat his girlfriend too. Well, like him, every eating girlfriend after it ate him. Right. It killed him. She was trying to defend him. She was hitting it with a frying pan. Yeah, but she was like, you know, collateral damage. It was, I feel bad for the girlfriend. I do too, but again, like, what kind of choices are we making in this life? But think about you asked a question about retroduction or these attacks that occur. There was a story we didn't include. It was just too tangential, tangential, but there was a neighbor of the Missouri Primate Foundation, the Chimp Party place where all the animals were bred at a time in the 90s.

1:43:32She had 42 chimps living in the house in a single property. One escapes a 19 year old boy recognizes his dog in the backyard. It's being attacked by chimpanzee. He grabs a gun, shoots a chimpanzee. He gets charged with destruction of property. It's a felony. Oh my god. He went to prison. Oh my god. For six months gets out. He missed the birth of his daughter. That's insane. And his name is Jason Coates. It's a really interesting story. Who the fuck tried that? And then guess what? Here's what happened. Two years ago, I think, he gets his record expunged finally at 40 years old. And now he can, he can't get work.

1:44:14You know, the guy's like a contractor and he couldn't get work. That's so crazy. Defending his property. He shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place. Also defending his life. Yeah. Like the reality, if you understand chimpanzees, the person who had that champion chimpanzees responsible, not this man who's defending his life, you are so vulnerable to a chimpanzee. If they decide to get after you, there's not a lot you can do. You could survive for a little bit, but it's going to tear you apart. That's just how it is. And if that guy is not armed, he can't protect himself. Then what do you have?

1:44:46You have a person who gets torn apart by chimpanzee. The idea that you can't protect yourself from someone's crazy fucking idea of harboring an animal, an enormous animal that's insanely strong and hyper aggressive and intelligent and uncontrollable. Yeah, that was a tragic story. Terrible. It's really hard making these films because so many good stories fall on the cutting room floor and so many great subjects and that was one of them. Well, you have to have some discretion in the process of casting subjects. I mean, it's a choice, but I also think the idea is it was also kind of far away from where we were going with these films.

1:45:24I think it seems like you could do multiple series. Oh my god, we could continue with this thing. It's harder and it's getting harder and harder to do. But is it also harder to get people to be natural on camera to not be performative? It's harder. I mean, what is harder now and it was hard in the very beginning also is that these people that keep, you know, I'm generalizing a little bit, but for the most part, they're very guarded about letting you in because one, you know, they don't know if you're a spy for animal rights groups. They don't know if you're the feds and they don't know if you're going to steal their animals.

1:45:59And so a lot of these people have very valuable animals and they're, you know, extremely guarded and paranoid about letting you in. Now, of course, it's even become harder because in our case, we've been sort of, you know, become known. And so to continue this model of doing another story on, I don't know, bears. Yeah, people are going to be suspicious. But as far as being natural, I don't think that's so hard. With Tanya and Joe, you know, Joe's obviously a performer in a sense, but we just film them. And the more intimate you can make that filming experience for them, the more natural they become.

1:46:40So we work with hardly anybody, you know, with Tiger King, it was just me and a camera guy. And then, you know, and I drove back and forth from Texas to Oklahoma constantly, you know, Dallas to Oklahoma City. It was just two of us filming. And so the more intimate it is, the more, you know, the less of an audience is watching while you're filming, the better it is. And also before Tiger King, there's no way they could have known how big that was going to be. Oh my god. I didn't know we didn't know. No, no way they could have ever anticipated some bizarre obscure documentary on people that are keeping pet cats.

1:47:17I started, I even know, but I started making a film about the big big cats in America. Yeah, okay. That's like low risk. We didn't even we didn't even know it was going to be successful. Well, like I said, you guys caught lightning in the bottles. The perfect timing of people being locked in during the pandemic. You guys were kind of the early stars of the pandemic, your show. It was like, it was also a welcome escape from the craziness that we were all experiencing. We're experiencing everyone's wearing a mask. You're keeping away from people. And then you're at least when you're home with your family, like, oh my god, we're not these fucking idiots.

1:47:53We're crazy. We're not this crazy. Like this, this little world is so much more insane than this new insane world that it became sort of a little bit of a panacea for us. I think I was telling Eric this, you know, it's so we could ask this question a lot about, you know, the state of, you know, non scripted, unscripted, show is documentaries. And this dramatization that you're seeing as a trend, people making very cinematic real stories, dramatic recreations. And Eric and I, we're talking about it a lot because so much of our content is so much more surreal than anything we can even make up or recreate.

1:48:35And that's what's so surreal about our process and also just the stuff we capture. It's strange or the infection. It's strange that the infection also comes off as authentic. And as someone who's worked in reality TV, it's not reality, okay? And especially the kind of reality shows you think of as reality shows, they have all these scenarios set up. They'll edit things to make them look like different things happen because they just want you to keep people tuned in for drama. So if you're, you know, you follow in a family around, they create drama. They have scripted shits, but then it feels like it, right?

1:49:11The thing about Tiger King and the thing about Chimp Crazy is it feels very authentic. It's crazy. God, I'm so glad you say that because I would fly into St. Louis drive down to the Ozarks to film Tanya. And, you know, she'd be like three hours late for some reason. And then she'd show up and she'd say, oh, you know, I got to go get my eyes done. And then I would be like, Tanya, you were three hours late. Can I at least film you with getting your eyes done? And not once were we setting her up or saying, can you, you know, get your lip injections, she just would say, no, I got four o 'clock in point with my lip injection.

1:49:47And we just, we just shadowed her. So it was just her life. Yeah. So it is authentic. Yeah. And we also have, we also have, you know, Eric, we're also fortunate to have an incredibly talented team that can help, you know, create these experiences in a way on, on screen that, that make it authentic. Well, it's also the editing process. I didn't. Of course, we had a great team. We have incredible group of, uh, of team. So as they're doing it, are they like marking down like key moments that they have someone who's like a stenographer or something who's like marking down. So you know, like what to look for or do you at the end of the day go that thing where she went and got her lips done?

1:50:23We have to have that in. Maybe I wish we had what you just said. It would be very helpful. But it's pretty, it's pretty organic. It's pretty organic. I think there's also, you know, you, you follow the core story, which was Tanya's story. We kind of knew that we had it, um, the minute the missing chimpanzee happened or the supposed death occurred. So that was a story. Where is it? Where is it, Jim? And through that story, we're able to kind of latch on all these other things now. What you don't know is we shot these other stories, you know, out of sequence, you know, the Travis came at the very end.

1:50:58So we had to figure out a way to, you know, weave it in episode two and weave it in episode four. We knew we really wanted that in to serve as the matter connection to Tanya's story. But I just have to have one big, overriding point, which is that this is not a good recipe for people. Yeah. Sure. Now making films like this, because it's not because we, you know, like there's all these sort of formulaic styles of documentaries like a biopic famous person or a take down documentary or true crime. What we do, and I think we've just been really lucky, is we just start filming somebody never knowing, of course, where this is going to go, you know, and in that is not a good smart way to make probably documentaries, because what if it goes nowhere?

1:51:42Right. You know, I'm just, I'm just bringing that up because you know, and so in order to do Jim Crazy after Tiger King, we actually filmed so many different things to get to Jim people, you know, how do we, how do we spend less time on these things and what we've kind of realized it's like exhausting? It's worth it though. Well, it seems like there's no other way. It's not the way. It's not the way. Then it just shadow these people forever and then spice it down to four hours. Yeah. Yeah. It was like you have 250 plus hours of footage, 250 days of footage. And it's like about, it's about 1300 hours.

1:52:18Okay, 1300 hours down to four. Yeah. Now that's just primary camera. It's like, you know, summarizing the days. I mean, multiple cameras, multiple things happening in a day. Right. We were very efficient. You know, it's an 8 to 12 hour day. We're capturing a lot of stuff in that day. So are you archiving and like at the end of the day, so you know, like what day this happened and what day that you're, so you do make sure there's a process. There's a field process to ingest that has kind of the notes that we have for the day. What happened? What's interesting about the day? And are you trying to fill to form the narrative of how you're going to have the whole documentary series play out as you're doing that?

1:52:56Or is it just that comes so much later? Yeah. Like we have no idea where it's going probably for the first year and a half of filming. You know, in the case of Jim Crazy, we didn't even discover Tanya until a year and a half in. A year and a half in. No, it's what kind of made it more complicated. Well, you know, it's so interesting, Joe. And I want to come back to this about, you know, I saw you get a little emotional with the buck story because I, we spent, it was really a hard one for us to tell, but an important one to make sure we got that in. But we missed it. We missed it. We missed the cover.

1:53:35We were going to go, Eric and I were going to go to Pendleton to cover what was happening with buck, because we knew there was a violation that occurred from the state of Oregon that basically said, Tamara, you have to do these improvements. Otherwise, we're taking the animal away from you. And that had happened. We thought we would cover the response to that four days later, buck was shot. And we said to ourselves, and I remember this so vividly, we can't, we have to trust our instincts. When we are into something, let's cover it, film it, send someone out and cover it if we need to. So we decided to film everything, everything including our conversations and process, like very meta, which ended up becoming part of the story too, as you'll see more in four where we have to like turn her in basically.

1:54:19So the point with being is that the buck story happened. We thought we just send this guy to Wayne who we recruited to kind of join the team into, into Festus to cover this confiscation, thinking nothing was going to happen, day happens, take the animals out, one is missing. And then the guy that we had sent there became friends with her and we just had to keep following, following it. So this guy became essential to this story with with no intended, intended, you know, reasoning for that. So yeah, it's the making of became more interesting than the actual subject matter in a way to us. And kind of weaving that together came much, much later.

1:55:03It's not a good formula. I mean, I'm interested though, you're also kind of an outsider in this. But what was your kind of response to the industry, you know, formulaic kind of way of doing things? Well, I mean, doing what kind of things? With reality TV programming or programming in general. Well, I think they, with reality TV was pretty simple. I could see how it started. It was people that were involved in scripted shows. And then scripted shows somewhere around the early 2000s got decimated by reality shows. And so these people who already respected television producers, they made their way into reality television.

1:55:42And then they realized some of these people were pretty fucking boring most of the time. We don't have enough time to spend 250 days to film one episode of a show, right? Which is what you guys had to do. So instead, what they do is they say, okay, today, you're going to argue about what to have for lunch. And so Bob wants Mexican food, Sally wants Chinese food. You have to figure it out and you have to go around town and figure out where to eat. And you're eventually going to decide this. And this is the place you're going to eat. You're going to be happy. And so the whole thing is the personal dynamics, the relationships these people have to each other.

1:56:19And then they create drama along the way, along the way, you're going to run into your friend from high school who's like perfectly made up, you know, like well lit with a microphone on. Whoa. So it's like it's bullshit. It's bullshit. It's not really reality, but it's also not really a drama. It's real human beings. They're doing nonsense. And you feel it. And then there's also like reality shows that are on specific subjects. And those are bullshit too. And then you know, you have dating shows, which are super, super popular. Because like, who's he going to pick? Who's she going to pick? How's this going to work?

1:56:53You know, we get excited about that or fucking these garage shows where someone shows up in a storage unit. Well, you know, a lot of those shows, they fake it. They load up the storage unit. Because yeah, so they can't be assured that this storage unit's going to have some fucking pirates treasure in it. Right. So what do they do? They put pirates. Yeah. So they pretend that they got this at an auction. Like, who knows what's in it? Apparently the guy died in a mysterious way. And there's people looking for him. We might really be on to something. And then come to commercial. Is that gold? Come to commercial.

1:57:24Come back from commercial. Is that gold? But I even thought I don't watch any of those shows. I even thought some of these like, you know, nature shows like Steve Irwin, you know, and I know, I know you know, Forrest Galan, but I always kind of wonder, like, is he walking through the jungle? And there suddenly finds the snake. Is it, it's got to be set up a lot of the time. A lot of the time, I'm sure it is. Or the crocodile. Some of those shows, but a lot of the ones like one of the more interesting things today is YouTube, right? Because YouTube, you have these small independent people, like there's a guy we had on called Python cowboy.

1:57:58And this guy goes out into the Everglades every day and captures pythons. And you know, like there's videos of him, he got bit by one, like really fucked up his arms, gushing blood. He's holding on to the, they're enormous. There's more pythons in the Everglades than anywhere on earth. Burmese pythons. Yeah, used to be a part of a reptile facility. So we're joining our next doc series is about reptiles and the smuggling of reptiles. We have a whole section on that. It's another thing. I went down to rabbit hole last night. Nile crocodiles. I was going to the Nile crocodile. I can tell you, I can tell you a lot about.

1:58:34Tell me about Nile crocodile crocodiles in the Everglades though. Because what they were saying is they found a few. And the ones that they identified that they've captured that were definitely Nile crocodiles came from the same gene line. So they think they came from the same genetic source. But then there was another guy that I was watching this documentary last night with this YouTube video rather last night where he was saying that there's like huge crocodiles that take out cattle on the west side of Florida. No. Yeah, so he was he was sketching me out. He's like 18 foot 18 foot. There's like 23 or 24 species of crocodilians in the world, you know, right?

1:59:10That includes cameins, crocodiles, alligators, gorales. And the only crocs that are really, really dangerous to man are saltwater crocodiles, Nile crocodiles, Mugger crocodiles, but the crocs in Florida that are native, you know, American crocodiles, they are a brackish water crock. They're not like Nile crocodiles that are in fresh water. So in Florida, you basically just have American alligators. And there's a very small population of American crocodiles that are still native, but they're in sort of the estuaries and brackish water. They're smaller. They, which ones are small? The American crocodiles.

1:59:45Well, they're bigger than alligators. Are they really? Yeah, for sure. What's the biggest American crocodile they've ever found? Oh, they can be big. I've seen American crocodiles because the American crocodile, the one we have in South Florida, is the same crock that you see in coastal Mexico, goes down into Costa Rica. You can see, I've looked over, you know, I've seen a lot of American crocodiles in Mexico, Costa Rica. They're big. They're long, longer than your alligator out there. Really? Not that much longer. Jamie, can you find out what's the largest American alligator or American crocodile?

2:00:15How's under the impression that they were smaller species than the alligators were? And definitely smaller than the rest of their crocodiles. Check me on that. That's an alligator. No, that's alligator. That's alligator. Monster cattle eating alligators shot in Florida. Look at the size of that thing. Okay, but that's unusual. 15 feet. Oh my goodness. Wow, look at the size of that sucker. But you said earlier crocodile. Right, American crocodile. What's the largest American crocodile, Jamie? And the largest American alligator, right? I think the largest American alligator was 20 feet long. Wow, really?

2:00:49That big. That's the longest one they've ever found. Wow. Wow. I love this fact check. Okay, here we go. 14 foot. Yeah, so they're smaller. Yeah. Wait, what's the largest American alligator that it's bigger, definitely for sure. Is it really? Yeah, because that one that we have out there is 14. Damn. It's like when you catch a fish, right? You say it's this big. I think that's how I'm being with it. Okay, 19 feet, two inches. Oh, Joe, you're right. I'm wrong. I love this. Well, so there's a bunch of different ones, right? And the Nile crocodiles are different animals. Like Nile crocodiles regularly get to 18 feet.

2:01:24And there's some really interesting reports from back of the day of much larger ones. And so the question is like, what, here's the thing about alligators and crocodiles in particular, they don't die of old age. They just keep getting older and bigger. And when you introduce human beings and guns into the equation, what are the people going to shoot? Well, they're going to shoot the biggest ones, right? So you have guns being introduced in the 1800s. And now in 2024, you can't find the really big ones. Well, one of the reasons for that is a really big one would take hundreds of years to get that big.

2:01:59So an alligator like that big fucker that they had, that the cattle eating 15 foot alligator, that guy might be 90 years old. You know, so a crocodile that gets to 30 feet long, which is, you know, there was reports of ones that were longer than a 38 foot boat that these guys were on. That this is a long time ago, though. And so there's all the speculation with these people just freaking out because it was big and they exaggerated. Is this hyperbole? Like, what is this? There's the other part of the speculation is, well, for sure we know crocodiles used to be bigger. There was many, many species of crocodiles that were fucking enormous, dinosaur eating crocodiles.

2:02:40Huge thing. What is the biggest ancient crocodile that was ever discovered fossilized? I think it's like in the neighborhood of 50 plus feet long. I like this right now, what we're doing. And I like that you were right. And I was wrong. I like that too. So I'm about gigantic. Well, so my point is that like, these things are, they're so different than us, that it's hard for us to even imagine, okay, the biggest freshwater crock ever was 40 feet long. Yeah, they're mine. 110 million years ago. What about saltwater? Wow. Is that the largest crocodile period or is it what they all, the big ones, fresh water?

2:03:18What is the, does that the largest biggest crocodile fossil ever found? Okay, largest seed dwelling one, 30 feet long, interesting. So the 40 foot long one was bigger, interesting. So these ones that they, okay, super crock, massive fossilized crock discovered in the Agula, I'll, I'll, I'll, ice in that. Aguia, Aguia formation in Big Ben National Park, 40 to 50 feet long, jaws with six inch teeth. Good Lord. Wow. Big Ben. Big Ben. Good Lord. Six inch teeth. Okay, just imagine. Fucking six inch teeth. And it's 40 feet long. Oh my God. I mean, I think saltwater crocks and Nile Crocs, right? Eat more people, right?

2:04:06Yes. Today. Well, I have a friend, Jim Shockey, who's actually a professional hunter that was hired to go to Africa to shoot some of these man eating crocodiles that were taking out these people in this village. And the footage that he got of it is so disturbed because everyone in the village is missing something. Everyone in the village is either missing an arm or missing a leg or has a bite taken out of them. And while he was there, a woman got snatched up when she was trying to do laundry. So it's a very poor village and these people are at the mercy of these monsters that are actively hunting them.

2:04:40So what they do is they, so if they want to do something like have a place where they can retrieve water safely, what they do is they put like giant poles in the ground all around. So they essentially like encase this area. Right. But the promise of crocodiles figured it out. Yeah. And then they go in there and then just settle in. And they just wait for you because they can walk around on land, obviously. So they go out of the wall and then they go, oh, the fuckers, they only go in this little area. How do I get in that area? And they're watching you underwater for hours without breathing, you know?

2:05:12I work a lot in Madagascar. And we have not crocodiles in Madagascar, but they're not as big as mainland not Crocs. But I know that in Madagascar, it's when people go to washer clothing around the edge of these lakes that they get, you know, and every that's their instincts because that's how they get deer like these little areas every year. People die washing their clothing in Madagascar from Nile Crocs. Yeah. So the speculation is that there's breeding populations of those Nile Crocs in the Everglades. Really? Yeah. They've seen enough of them. See if you can find like what's the latest breeding crocodile breeding Nile crocodiles in the Everglades.

2:05:55They have a shoot on site order for them. I mean, it makes sense. I always wondered why there were not anacondas. And in the making of this reptile documentary we're doing, the reason we've been told that they're not anacondas in the Everglades is that they didn't import anacondas in the way they did Burmese pythons. Burmese pythons, from what we understand, the python skin people in Thailand and Malaysia, they would collect the eggs and breed, you know, have the babies and send thousands of babies baby Burmese pythons to the US. And that never happened with anacondas. But you think about anacondas because they would live in the Everglades.

2:06:32You're also, you're meeting the guy responsible for that tomorrow. It's unclear if Nile crocodiles are a breeder. It's unclear if they are breeding in the wild in Florida. But here's some information about Nile crocodiles and breeding in Florida. Nile crocodiles first observed in Florida in the 60s. Wow. Wow. Believe they have captured all the Nile crocodiles in the area. Nile crocodiles become established before they could threaten native species. Well, that's what pythons have done. I mean, they might have to bring in the Nile Crocs to kill the pythons. But what's interesting about that, you know, in the 60s, the 60s alligators were endangered for that.

2:07:05Yes. Well, I lived in Florida in the 70s and I lived in Florida. They were in danger. They were in the endangered species list. People used to feed them marshmallows. Oh, wow. Yeah. I lived in Gainesville, Florida. We used to go and then when I was there, some lady got her dogs snatched and then everybody got kind of freaked out. Everybody in the town was like, whoa, because they got way too comfortable with alligators. Yeah. Because alligators, when they get used to people, they just lay around. So they would just sit on the banks and we would go to the fucking park like Lake Alice is where the lake is.

2:07:34We'd go to the park and hang out. And alligators would just be hanging out there. That was a little kid. It was normal. It was normal to see alligators just sunning themselves and they were endangered back then. And now they're not endangered. Well, and now they're everywhere. And crocodile farming had a lot to do with why they're not endangered. Really? From what I understand. Yeah, because what took pressure off of Crocs is globally. Not so much alligators, but Crocs in general was when the farming happened, it took pressure off of hunting them obviously for skins, right? Right. And the farming of crocodiles has been a really, you know, it's controversial, but it's really been a success story for wild crocodilians.

2:08:14But why is that? Has it affect alligators? Well, they did. That's a good question. I think it was crocodile farming. You should ask. But I know crock farming in general has protected crocodilians across the board. I guess they used to hunt alligators also for skins or my role. Oh, yeah, for sure. They still do. So maybe they still breed them for skins and hunt them for skins. But now they have an overpopulation problem. So I was just curious to like how would crocodile farming make that happen? I don't think that. I think it's probably just a natural reaction. The fact they weren't hunted anymore.

2:08:45And then they just blossomed and it just took a few decades. And then you have enormous populations. Yeah, that may be true. No crock farming has helped crocodilians across the board. Sure. That's for sure. On storms patterns, right? Shifting, isn't that Elsa true? American alligators were on the endangered species list. They were very rare in the 60s. Now they're incredibly common. Well, they were very rare because they were overhunted. They were overhunted. Exactly. I mean, that's the problem when we were talking about deer. One of the things that was established through Teddy Roosevelt and when they set up the national parks and wildlife services in this country, they had market hunting before that.

2:09:22And they had wiped out everything. They used to be elk over 50 states. They used to be everywhere. Well, the eastern elk is extinct. Yes, exactly. And we have Rocky Mountain elk now that have been transplanted into the east. But the market hunting was a real problem. We had decimated the populations of all these things. They were just hunting deer and all these different animals and selling them for food. And oftentimes it's like bison. They would just sell their tongues, which is really crazy because bison meat is thought to be like some of the best meat, but they were they were pickling their tongues and sending them back to each other.

2:09:52Wow. You're now making me think about something and I don't know the facts because I, but the migratory bird act is some, you know, that we used to shoot birds all the time. And obviously the most common bird or one of the most common birds was passenger emotions, right? And it was, it was so many. Fill the sky. Fill the sky. Yeah. And then I think the migratory bird act came into effect anyway, but, but you're right around the Teddy Roosevelt period. Yeah, because people killed off all the, but there were so many passenger pages. They were fucking everywhere and we killed them off for food. And for feathers and people's hats, apparently.

2:10:25Crazy. Anyway, yeah, we're gross. So what do you, what do you think? So you have, you have Teddy Roosevelt, you call me on stuff and services. You have things like migratory board act. You have things like the ESA, which, you know, had its own unintended consequences, which you, we actually cover in our series about stopping importation, but propelling domestic interest through breeding. Yeah. And, and, and, you know, the demand that's created through US due systems that you see. So what happens next, I guess? It's a really complex. And the problem is people are very, um, dug in on their sides.

2:11:02Yeah. You know, you have people that are very dug in with the animal liberation idea, they're very dug in with PETA and veganism and dug in with anti hunting. And then there's people that are ranchers and then there's people that are very dug in to animals or our property. It's, uh, it's quite complicated. And it's just one of those things about being a human being as there's nuance to most things that are important to all of us. Sure. And the success of wildlife is important to all of us. It's so true. And one of the things we've tried to do a little bit is bring the animal rights groups closer together with the conservation biologist groups so that they can kind of work together because you're right.

2:11:45They're so polarized. Well, there's also, um, the problem is like we were talking about with BC. I didn't really finish my thought, but the reason why they outlawed bear hunting in BC is because the high population centers are all urban. So people don't have any experiences. Grizzly bears trying to eat their dogs or grizzly bears killing hikers or grizzly, they don't experience it. If they did, they'd be terrified. It's a giant predator and you have no chance if it catches you out in the wild. I don't think we should ever kill off all the grizzly bears, but they should control the populations and the way to control the populations ethically is you do it through hunting.

2:12:20As much as this seems counterintuitive to people that love wildlife, the right way to do it is you have informed well schooled biologists that really do a great job of managing the numbers that are in the area. And then you have people that spend enormous amounts of money to hunt those things. And then that money goes into maintaining the population and make sure that it's at a healthy balance. If there's too many bears, genocide, I mean, in phantracide in bears is common. Almost all bears are cannibals. They eat their own babies. It's the whole thing is mad. And if they don't have enough food or if the males come out of the, if they're hibernating and they come out before the female does with their cubs, they'll actively seek out those cubs for food.

2:13:08And they will do less of that if there's less of them. And if there's more of a balance between predator and prey. And that's where it gets weird. Because as a person who loves nature, who are we to say you should kill a certain amount of bears and a certain amount of wolves? That seems fucked. Like we should just sort of like let it be what it is and enjoy it. But the problem is it leaks over into this strange world that we've created. And this is the reality. If you want to be able to go to Starbucks, if you want to be able to go outside and have a cheeseburger and an outdoor patio, you can't have fucking wolves everywhere.

2:13:46Okay. This is just reality. And we're accustomed to this artificial enclosure that we've created to keep human being safe. And we've lost our perspective of what it means to be an animal in the world. No, so I mean like calling elephants. If you don't manage elephants, they'll denude everything. And then you they'll all die. Well, there's that, but there's also they don't give a fuck who planted that food. If you're in a village and your whole family survival is dependent upon you getting these vegetables that you've planted. And then elephants come in and eat all your vegetables. You could very easily starve to death.

2:14:25And that's real too. And people don't want to think about that because you think of elephants or elephants are endangered. Yes, they are. Elements are hunted for their ivory. Yes, they were. But also elephants are Africa is fucking huge. There's not the same amount of black bears in San Francisco as there are in rural Wyoming. Right. It's because that's the environment to live. If you went to San Francisco, you're like, oh my god, black bears are extinct. But you know, go to New Jersey. They're everywhere. Right. So it's it's not that the animal is that you know, you shouldn't have any of them.

2:15:00It's just like you there's just should be places where they exist and places where they don't exist. And if you want to maintain a city, you're going to have to do something about the population of predators. You're going to have to do something. It's just like how far outside of your city does does human control radiate? Well, then you have ranchers, right? Okay, if you want to have a guy who grows cows, so you eat steak, you're going to have to be able to protect this guy's crop or it's not going to be profitable for him to do this. You're going to have to be able to protect his animals. I completely agree.

2:15:26Keep animal human conflict. You know, if you want to keep it at bay, keep wild animals in the wild. Right. I would question, and I think you're right, bringing or we are introducing grizzly bears into areas where there are high densities of humans. It's a recipe for trouble. Well, it's also completely theoretical. And right now it's theoretical, although they did just recently reintroduce grizzlies back into Washington state. No, I don't mean theoretical in a sense that they haven't done it as far as what the outcome's going to be. Like you really don't know. And especially if they get to a point where they become bold and they're not threatened by people at all anymore.

2:16:02And that's what happens in certain parts of the country. That's what happens when they have too many of them in a specific area. And then they compete for resources. And it can get weird. The outcome of Tiger King, I mean, no one knows this, but I'll tell you this, I don't think anyone knows it publicly. But you know, a few things happened. One thing, this federal law called Big Cat Public Safety Act was passed, largely because of Tiger King. But the other thing we did just sort of privately is we donated a million dollars to Tiger Conservation in India. And one of the countries where tigers are still doing quite well.

2:16:39And so we went to visit the program last September in India. And you know, it's just was so interesting because you were talking about bears attacking people in India. They do live with tigers. And they do have obviously a certain amount of people that get killed every year. But the key is to keep enough prey within the area where these tigers are. It's when the local people I guess outhunt or compete with the prey that the tigers start going into more human air, you know, basically start looking at humans as something to eat. But I just bring that up because it was something that it was a byproduct of Tiger King.

2:17:15That, you know, it was something that we did just quietly as the people that I did Tiger King with, including you. And that's a widely now. Don't they did that money? That's a quietly now. You got you aware of the Sundar bands? Yeah. The Tiger attacks the Sundar bands. Absolutely. Sundar bands are fascinating. Because hundreds of thousands of people have been killed by tigers. Beautiful wetlands. Several hundred years. Yeah. But also brackish water. And they think that might contribute to the aggression of the tigers. They drink in like salty water and they're just constantly irritated. But they seem to kill people for sport.

2:17:46Really? Yeah. There's this one story of this group of men that are in a boat. And they're rowing this boat in the water. And they're, I don't know if they're rowing it, but they're trying to get away from this tiger. This tiger jumps into the water, swims up to the boat, kills a guy, drags them to shore, jumps back in the water, swims out to the boat again, kills another guy, drags him to shore. And one guy gets away to safety. One or two guys got away with it. Where are they wearing masks behind their heads? They weren't. But yeah, that's also what they do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When they walk around there and they do surveys of the animals, but it's also insanely difficult to find out where they are too.

2:18:20Because the grass is so high. And you know, they're just built to fuck things up. That's what their job is. And if people live around them, people are on the menu. That's just what it is with tigers. It didn't make it into Tiger King, but we filmed in Southern Nepal, a place called Chitwan National Park where tigers are doing very well. And they actually have armed guards with like machine guns to protect the tigers from poachers. We filmed there, but it's pretty remote. I don't remember how many people get killed, but yeah, whether or tigers people are going to have problems. Yeah. If there's high densities of people.

2:18:58But you know, there's a reason why human beings don't live. You're shot supposed to live there. They have to. They're stuck. They're fucked. But boy, we should figure out a way to develop some sort of an area there where they don't have to live like that. There's a lot of people. I mean, it is amazing. It's amazing that in India, there's still tigers at all because it's one of or the second most populated country in the world. It feels like when you're in India, there's people everywhere. Like you think you're going off on some rural road. It's just there's people. But if you go into a place where the jungle is like where the tigers live, it's like really hard to live there.

2:19:34And then the people that are living there are probably they have no options. So they're the poorest. And so they're living, you know, in sort of a traditional way out exposed. And then they have to figure out how to protect themselves. And these these enormous stealthy cats that are sneaking around everywhere they go. Fuck. But you see plenty of cows, which is amazing, by the way. Which is so romantic. Which is so. Just roaming these kind of, you know, windy roads. I would really love to know what the origin of the sacred cow is. Really love to know the origin of that. That's one of the most fascinating things that you have a place where people are starving and they choose not to eat cows.

2:20:14Yeah. Fascinating. And they start in the just the traffic stopping, which is, you know, in these roads that have no lanes. And they're all just kind of it. But it's so crazy that they stick to this one thing. Like I was just watching this news report of this group of people that were not Hindu. I think they were of some other religion and they lived in India. And they got arrested for killing cows. So they had cows in their yard. They arrested for them. And they bulldozed their homes. Wow. Yeah. See if you can find that. Oh, they're also probably Muslim. I believe they were. Yeah. More people die from what in India in terms of wildlife is it snakes?

2:20:56Probably mosquitoes. I mean, of course mosquitoes. But after that snakes are tigers. I don't know. It's a good quote. I don't think it's tigers. I think the Sundar bands is the the area where they get jacked pretty regularly. But and also how many I mean, people are doing surveys on how many people are missing. You know, when you're going into these like very remote areas, how many people know? Indian authorities bulldogs bulldoze homes of 11 people after finding beef and fridges. Oh, incredible. That's it. That slaughter of cows, which Hindus worship as a deity's band in most of India as his consumption of their meat.

2:21:30Isn't that fucking fascinating? We cut down an oak tree in California. You're right. We're going to bulldoze your fucking house. Because they're kind of three. Isn't that nuts? People found beef in the fridge and cows in their backyard. So they wait. So in India, you can eat a hamburger. You cannot. Yeah, they're not really. I was just in India. I think you can get in the hotels and stuff. You can't get it at like a Oh, wow. They allow it in hotels. Yeah, you can get it at it. I mean, I was just in India. So you can eat lamb. You can eat sheep. You can eat you can eat you can eat other different animals.

2:22:02You just can't eat cows. Yeah. Wow. I didn't even think of that when I was there. A lot of people think it has its roots in psychedelic mushrooms. The psilocybin grows on Kalmanur and that these people. Wow. Because one of the oldest. What is it? I think it's called Chaktaal Hayuk. It's like one of the oldest known civilizations, which was a cattle worshiping civilization. And they had like these like, why were people who are fucking starving to death? Like barely getting by? Why were they like into worshiping cows? Well, that's where you got all your mushrooms. It completely makes sense. It's almost the only thing that makes sense.

2:22:38It's almost the only thing that you could actually, especially if you have like ancient stories of Soma and these different psychedelic compounds that the Hindus would eat and these different psychedelic notions or potions rather that were talked about where we don't really know what the composition of them was. But we do know that psilocybin mushroom has a long history of use and it's really common to find them growing on Kalmanur. Wow. It's also poor people that don't have any food. Not eat this one animal. I don't know, but I've seen mushrooms in Kalmanur. Getting very confusing information on the burger and India's to check and check and all you want, baby.

2:23:20They definitely seem to have burgers, but I don't know that they're making them with like brown beef though. Right. Could be like a lamb burger? Sure be. It could be all kinds of stuff that they call burger. Right. When you get Indian food, it's always lamb. It's a bit more western now. I mean, if you're going like kind of more, you know, not to these people. Yeah. These people wasn't western enough. I mean, bulldozer fucking house a couple of months ago. That's remarkable. That's incredible. I bet you they're also Muslim though. That's awesome. Yeah. Right. Right. It's like the Uighurs get treated.

2:23:45Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of that, you know. Yeah. I'm sure there's some of that too. Yeah. But it's, it's just our relationship with animals is very bizarre. And I think most people have like a really stunted understanding of it. They're never really around wild animals. It's a squirrel or a pigeon or something like that. They don't see it. Further and further. I think it's a kind of perverse relationship. It is. Well, cities as much as I love them, they are perverse. They're strange. And they've they've done us a lot of harm psychologically. They've they've created people that are much more vulnerable than they've ever been before.

2:24:25They're soft and lazy and entitled and everything comes easy to them. And I don't think that's normal for human beings either. And you can get food anywhere you want and all the worst kinds of food. And you're in a prison of your own choosing. You're going from one closed environment to another closed environment, riding around your car or the subway or whatever you're doing. And we're completely disconnected to what it meant to be a human being for hundreds of thousands of years. And it happened in a blink of an eye. In a couple a hundred years, all of a sudden we're fucked. And we're trapped in this bizarre system.

2:24:56And in this system, occasionally, we interact with animals. And we are understanding of it. And what we think of it, what we think it is is so and we have anthropomorphization through like, you know, yogi bear and all that kind of stuff. And we're so weird with the way we interact with animals. Every piece of it. I was so lucky to grow up in nature. And I take it for granted. I grew up mostly in northern California, but I was like a feral kid. My mother always said, Eric, we were feral. We didn't plan anything. I would spend my days fishing and hiking in the creeks. What part of northern California?

2:25:34In Sonoma area. But I'm beautiful up there. But then I spent 40 something years in New York City. But I never lost that what you're talking about. And that interest in love of going out into nature. But I think you're right. Today, people don't have the experience I had. Some of the kids are from an urban, you know, world and they can't connect. We don't even know what it's like. But I mean, I would imagine if you went to a city, your average say like a New York city or Los Angeles, the average person there. What percentage of them spend any time at all alone in the woods? Yeah. Very few. Yeah, we've lost our connection.

2:26:09I think we had this conversation with Carl Eric recently, which kind of put it really well for me. So much of the conversations you have is, oh, we're going to go connect with nature. We're going to Botswana for the summer and, you know, do tourism. But what you really can do is put a bird feeder outside your window and connect with nature that way. And you'll see lots of different birds. But you must have grown up in nature in some way or no. Not really. No, not really. But why do you then have such a like connection to it because I like interesting things. You know, I'm it's it's really interesting.

2:26:41The fact that so few people engage in it is also interesting to me because I'm fascinated by the just whatever the pole of urban life is. Like what is the gravity of urban life that it's changed us into these soft non -self -sufficient beings that is completely relying on some strange system that's ultimately polluting the world and decimating of its resources. Like what what are we like we're weird and time I spend in the woods in the wilderness just just being out there you just you get us a different sense of what life actually is. You know, you just it's it's so extraordinary to see wild animals in the wild like wild deer and elk and bears and see them existing.

2:27:32It's incredible. It's better than any movie. It's it's like it gives you a vitamin that you didn't know you needed. You know, like the feeling that you get when you go out in the sun like maybe you've been indoors the winter and then there's a nice sunny day in the spring everybody's outside in the park like giving my vitamins right doesn't it feel like that you're lying down like giving my vitamins that's what it feels like a nice sunny day in like central park right. That is of there's a vitamin that we get in the wilderness that we are we don't know we're lacking in. I think it's a part of being a person I think I think it's a part of being interconnected to every life form that exists wherever we are and we don't think we are because we live in a department and we play in Nintendo and we you know we're locked into this thing that human beings have created but we're missing something and it's not as extreme as Tonka being trapped in that lady's basement but it's in the neighborhood there's something about it it's real similar there's something about it that's real weird where where our our own prison of our own choosing is not good for us and it's interesting you know most all of the characters and Tiger King and Jim crazy did have have never seen champs or tigers in the wild or had any interest you know they were just they were just intranet they didn't have the intranet they didn't have the intellectual curiosity that you would think they would have to see them in the wild.

2:29:03I'm not shocked yeah I do have a question though really important the champ with the McNuggets chicken nuggets did does he open up the sauce and dip yes did you show him dip it is yeah well in that show I think he just like this but they sucks it out but they are dexterous enough and they have eaten so much McDonald's they do know how to do that so they do dip the yeah I don't think it's in that shot no they I've seen the the they actually peel it with their mouth yeah they peel the wrapper off right I don't like wrappers yeah they dig in with the nugget I think they just squeeze it in the mouth I'm not dipping I like that question that's a good one we were confused yeah he's gonna dip and then it cut away we don't know he's even getting away I mean the sauce toss moment was just so amazing was you want your sauce there's your sauce yeah yeah it was so surreal incredible they know too much like just the the communication get that piece of paper and he gets the paper and brings it back they knew too much it's too creepy it's too it's it's so weird I mean you guys did an amazing job of capturing it and thank God you found that one nutty lady because she really glues it all together but yeah everybody everybody should watch it it's it's really good and everybody should watch it also because you have to know that that's the thing like you you know you don't know what people are really capable of until you watch like a serial killer documentary and you go oh Jesus and Christ that's the thing yeah so you don't know that people are keeping chimps in their house until you watch your show and you go oh that's a thing but wake it wakes you up from human confinement to the you know the symptom you just described of urbanization and coastal bubbles yeah it's kind of the people are like oh my god this is America like what do you of course like go outside 45 minutes away from where you live right right right I didn't know is a thing and I've been involved with animal people my whole life so yeah it's a thing monkey moms it's yeah I mean I'm not saying that I'm not saying that it's if you let people do it they'll do it there's some strange obsessions in this in this world yeah if you if you give people free license to do it it's one of the great things about being an American you have so many freedoms there's so many things you could do but it's also like at a certain point in time we got to wake up and go hey put in a dolphin in a fucking swimming pool is evil you know and one day when AI can transcribe dolphin communication we're gonna probably realize they're as smart as us and that's where it gets really really scary is that we have been engaging in a form of indentured slavery we've captured them we've raised them from child from the time they're a baby they've been in captivity the whole thing is completely disgusting and yet it's a normal part of life and until blackfish most people weren't even aware that it was a thing or what it actually was when you see orcas behave in the wild versus the way you see them trapped in those swimming pools it's torturous their skins falling off and the whole thing but think about this a hundred years ago you can go to the Bronx do and see you know a boy in a cage out of Banga it was a photo a photo is remarkable I kept in a cage right what year was that 1913 is it like 20s is it 20s maybe he shot his he ultimately shot his brains out even people then knew that adabanga this you know you know basically a indigenous man from West Africa with these 1912 or something like that anyway but he even then people would disturb to see a human being next to a gorilla and he was in a cage by himself I think he was in the ape house at the Bronx well first he was brought for the world's fair on display wow you know to show there you go there yes there you go they shaved his teeth down to to be more like fangs oh my god shark teeth you know four there it is so when what year at the Bronx to 19 oh so you died 1916 that's right okay so he was in 1904 sort of the century yeah so that's our history right 1964 Bronx you that this incredible I I love this this image it was it was a it was an exhibition right the world's most dangerous animal and it's reflection oh yeah it's a mirror with bars and you walk into it and you see yourself wow but they were really cool they were conscious of that in 1964 1964 well it was 20 years after we dropped a fucking couple of nuclear bombs yeah this is a this is a but how cool is that image that is cool that's yeah you would never have that today the most dangerous animal in the world is us which is you know so true well it certainly is numerically yeah you know and also just the impact we have overall we're sketchy group but we know more about us because of stuff like what you guys have done so thank you very much cool it was really fun talking to you and did HBO fun this or did you guys bring it to HBO after it was done we probably went midstream so we kind of typically what we do is we figure out if we have something we self -fund and develop something until we could do a point where we think it's ready I mean Tiger King I almost finished it before I brought it to anybody oh so I think now we have the ability to kind of control output in terms of control of what the ultimate product can be it was a little bit harder that back then but yeah it's we kind of figure out if it's worth it or not and then we take it out but Joe thanks for having us my pleasure you guys nailed it twice it's really chimp praise is really good yeah thank you of course Tiger King was awesome too and what I said I really mean I think you guys are doing something that's um you're giving us a better understanding of humans you know through this very strange lens of watching these very bizarre people and their psychological misfortunes like whatever it is about them whatever unfortunate aspect of their their their mind the way the interface of the world allows them to do that it gives us a better understanding of ourselves I really think so oh so I appreciate you having us my pleasure thank you guys and please finish the show I will I will I was just bombed out last night okay oh thank you very much guys thank you thank you