#2211 - Michael Shellenberger

26:36I mean, I'm 90, 95 % on it. I think the Wall Street Journal reporters who did fantastic reporting on this are probably 99%. That was a sex black mill operation. They were shooting film. There were one -way mirrors. They were entraping people. There's known connections to Mossad and I just don't believe that Mossad operates in the United States without CIA approval. So, the prevailing theory is what most people believe is that they brought these people there under this premise that you're going to be there with heads of state and industry and famous people and scientists. And this is going to be an amazing place where exceptional people get together.

27:16And once you get there, you get a little loose. You start drinking a little and perhaps taking in some party favors and then there's ladies. Yeah. And they're underage. Yeah. And then you don't know it, but that mirror on the wall sounds filming you. And then you're owned. Yeah. So, I mean, look, that's possible. I mean, I'm not... Something's going on in the fact that they haven't been released. Right. The client list hasn't been released. Well, and that Epstein was killed in jail. I mean, that's just clearly murder. Clearly murder. A suspicious thing. I mean, I don't know anybody that thinks whoopsie with the suicides.

27:51Oh, I've heard people argue it. Yeah, they believe it. So, I mean, look, that could explain it. I mean, look, I think Soros really believes the stuff. You know, I think Gates, I mean, these are people like when you get that powerful, you don't stop wanting more power. You want more power. And so... And there's also you need to maintain power in order to protect yourself from all this stuff that we just talked about. Right. Assuming there's... You have skeletons in the closet. I mean, we do know one of his affairs with a young Russian, I think, chess player. Bridge. Bridge player. That's not contested.

28:30That's established. When he was going through his divorce, the, you know, Melinda, you know, like you see the leaks to the New York Times about Epstein occurred while she's negotiating over the divorce. Right. So clearly she knew something. You don't necessarily need that. You don't need Epstein to explain Gates. But I mean, Gates, he just came out with a Netflix documentary. This wasn't some like off -handed remark. He was on the whole Netflix documentary talking about specifically a great length about why we need to have censorship apparatus in place. And he gave multiple reasons. And one of them's protect people trying to tell you not to take vaccines.

29:12Right. Protect people from people like you. Yeah. Well, I'm not even telling people not to do anything. But there's people that are spreading air quotes, misinformation about vaccines. Right. Including real facts. Well, right. Those are the most dangerous ones. Well, that's what the most bizarre is that he himself has changed his take on it. And he did it sort of, it seemed like to try to cover up the fact that he was promoting it for so long and that well, it didn't work as we wanted. And COVID wasn't as bad as we thought. And you know, it didn't really offer the protection that we need in order to actually, you know, it's on a sterilizing virus.

29:50It doesn't actually, doesn't actually kill the virus. It doesn't keep you from getting it. Right. So it does allow transmission. So he kind of admitted all those things. But like, oh, we'll do better next time with sort of the gist of it. Right. And this idea that you have to use, you can't have people talking about inconvenient things that eventually turn out to be true seems crazy to not push back on. And the fact that he said that and there was no response whatsoever in mainstream media. There was no New York Times articles written about it. The Washington Post didn't cover it and talk about how fucking insane it is to say something like that, especially after what we've been through.

30:26The gaslighting. Yeah. I mean, I just did a debate with Bill Nye in Florida. He's a science guy. The science guy. Yeah. How could you do a debate against the science guy? Because I'm anti -science, obviously, it must be. And you know, I mean, I just pointed out that simple fact that the, I just point out the vaccine didn't obviously prevent infection or transmission. And the crowd, you know, how can you say that and whatever? And it's like because it because everybody knows it reduced hospitalizations and reduced death. And I, I agree with that. I mean, that's fine. But the point isn't, I'm not arguing about the vaccine.

30:59I'm arguing that it didn't do what they said it did. And nobody is actually, and then they just gaslight you as though that were the reason they were telling you to get the vaccine in the first place was to reduce hospitalization and death. No, they were telling you that it was going to reduce infection and transmission. Well, everybody's seen that Rachel Maddow clip, right? But here's the thing. If everybody took it, how do we even know if it reduced hospitalization? This episode is brought to you by Buffalo Trace Distillery. Actually, have some Buffalo Trace cigars here. They just sent me one of the world's most award -winning distilleries that's been making whiskey the same way for more than 200 years made as a tribute to the rugged free spirited pioneers who blaze their own trail to new frontiers.

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32:28Distilled, aged, and bottled by Buffalo Trace Distillery, 90 proof, Franklin County, Kentucky, Buffalo Trace, American, family -owned, independent, and perfectly untamed. And death. We don't know. And when we know that the fact that the people that died of COVID, the vast majority of them have four -plus coma riddities. And we know that some ungodly amount of the population was vaccinated. Was it like 80 % something like that? But you're saying that we don't know. We reduced death. Well, because you could compare the vaccinated to the unvaccinated group, right? Could you, though, if you have 80 % of the people that are vaccinated and the 20 % that are unvaccinated, are they of a particular political leaning?

33:18And what are the health metrics of that particular political leaning? Like has anybody done some sort of an analysis on the people that did versus didn't? Like, what were their health? What was their state of their physical health, their metabolic health before they made these decisions? Because ideally, what you would look at, if you wanted to find out if it stopped transmission or, excuse me, hospitalization or death, you would want to look at the overall body of human beings. And then we have a bunch of things that we knew, no, right? Okay. So we know that here's a group of people that died.

33:54Well, what do they have in common? Well, the vast majority of them have comorbidities. The vast majority of them are either really old or obese or are very ill, very, very ill. So we have, what was the actual number of people that died of COVID? I think 99 .7 survived, right? Right. So it's 0 .03 of the people that got, is it something like that? Man, I've not taken to account. You also have to take a new account. How many people were put on ventilators who wound up dying, which we now know was a terrible idea. 80 % of the people they put on ventilators died. We know Remdesivir had terrible health consequences.

34:34We know there's a bunch of things that people are connecting to the vaccine that no one is admitting, you know, and that hospitals and especially employers are very reluctant to say that these mandated vaccinations caused these serious health consequences that we know are real. And then we have this mysterious uptick of all cause mortality that everyone wants to conveniently ignore and no one wants to make some sort of correlation or causation. So do we really know that it prevented death? That is a good question. I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not a COVID vaccine expert. But I mean, even like saying that in front of Bill Nye, the science guy, like he's saying, it prevented the hospitalization and death by what measurement?

35:22Like how can someone so confidently say that when we know there's so much wrong with the vaccine, when we know that it didn't stop transmission, and then we found out it wasn't even tested to stop transmission. That was all a lie. Right. And the fact that they gave it to so many pregnant women with no tests on pregnant women, there's so much about it where people want to say this one thing because they think it will keep them from getting in trouble. And that thing that keeps you from getting in trouble, the vaccine was good because it prevented hospitalizations and deaths. I'm like, how have you shown that?

35:53Like, how do you show that? You know, I'm going to, I'm going to go back and look at it. I'll talk to my call. I'm with, I'm working with a new colleague who's an amazing, who's an amazing expert on the COVID stuff, but yeah, it's not my area. I mean, look, I think obviously they sold it to us as though as the polio vaccine. And it was more like the, the best it was more like the more like a flu vaccine. It was a magic cure. Right. It's not even like the polio vaccine because if you look at polio, have you ever seen the curve of when the polio vaccine actually comes in? No. Okay. We'll send this to Jamie because it's quite fascinating.

36:28Most people are under the impression that the polio vaccine stopped polio in its tracks, but the reality is polio cases had radically declined before the polio vaccine came along. It's weird when you, you, you find, I mean, that's the problem with these goddamn rabbit holes. I'll send this to you, Jamie. And this is a bunch of different vaccines that we associate with stopping particular diseases and what probably actually happened was there was some sort of herd immunity and it's also the advent of sanitation. Right. You know, people in inner cities are using outdoor outhouses. There's the stopping the use of DDT.

37:08There's a bunch of different factors that seem to play in that, but look at where the polio vaccine comes along. Yeah, that's amazing. Wow. Kind of crazy. Yeah. Kind of crazy. Totally different than the story we're told. Yeah. You know, another crazy statistic about polio? What percentage of polio do you think is asymptomatic? Okay. Great question. I'm assuming high, right? A lot. Take a guess. 50%. 99. 95 to 99. Depending on who you ask. And the majority of polio cases today are vaccine derived polio. So there's a particular strain of vaccine that causes people to get polio. And there's a particular strain of polio, rather than comes from that vaccine.

37:49So what's your, where are you at? What's your bottom line on vaccines right now? Where do you? I am not a vaccine expert, but I am a person that has been lied to for four years and so blatantly and so obviously when you look at Fauci talking to Rand Paul and just lying openly about whether or not they funded gain a function research. Right. The fact that he got away with all that. The fact that the White House tells you for the unvaccinated, you're looking at a winter of severe illness and death, just scaring the shed out of people. And it seems to me they were doing that to maximize profits because they wanted to keep selling these things.

38:24And a lot of people got extremely rich. Many billionaires were created because of the pandemic because of the COVID vaccine. It's all very spooky to me because I think there's a long history in this country of people doing things for money, knowing that people are going to suffer because of it. Well, it's just sort of a human thing if you can get away with it. It is legal and you have the protection in place and you know that you're going to profit largely from this. You do it. This is also it's also in the United States is worse because I mean, Europe did not require the vaccine. For in fact, I believe in they pulled out a lot quicker than we did to.

38:56I mean, they did not require for children in particular, right? Like I just interviewed Tracy Hogue and she was saying that she spent a lot of time in Denmark and Denmark said don't give your kids the vaccine and we said do and clearly. Well, there's a difference between socialized medicine, right? I mean, we're seeing it on the on the on the trans medicine as well. The Europeans because it's centralized socialized medicine when they when Europe said when Britain says you should not give kids puberty blockers, they block they they end puberty blockers across all of Britain. Right. They did it first in the NHS hospitals, which is the socialized medicine and then they did it for the whole country.

39:30Right. And the conservatives did it right before leaving office and the labor comes in and they go we're upholding it. So what is the debate with Bill Nye the science guy? What was his position? Well, in that case, it was just more like they were it was kind of a collective gaslighting where everybody has now I mean, I think it's unconscious, by the way. I don't think they're deliberately doing it. So maybe gaslight is not fair. I agree. They go right from they just have forgotten. It's like it's like retconning, you know, the the narrative. They just kind of go no it's it's about reducing hospitalizations and death.

39:58It's like, but that's not the way you sold it to us. Right. So can we just take a beat and acknowledge that you've changed your justification for the vaccine, which means that it's motivated cognition. It's not like you're like reconsidering vaccines now that they because what you should do is go, okay, the vaccines didn't do what they said they were going to do. It didn't stop infection or transmission. Now maybe there's another reason we want them and we should consider it, but you should take a beat and pause before you just sort of rush ahead to being to justifying vaccines for some other reason.

40:27Right. And what was his position? Just I mean, if the most, you know, Peter, it's just the same as Peter Hotez and all of these guys. It's very authoritarian. I mean, it's very like, I mean, the what he calls science is not actually what he would Fauci and Hotez and Bill Nye call science is not actually science because science is a process. The way they talk about it is more like a doctrine. Yeah. Exactly. Or a dictate and a dictatorship where it's like science is done by scientists. Well, actually science can be done by anybody. It's like journalism. Like you don't like you don't need a PhD to do science.

41:02Like science is something that you do. It's also not the same. I mean, you do sometimes you have experiments on labs, but science in the world of ecological biology is just going out there and counting the number of gorillas or whales. So this, you know, so they when they say science, they really mean like, oh, baby. Right. And it's people that are connected to institutions, all of the very powerful ones. Right. So you're connected to educational institutions. You're connected to these pharmaceutical industries, these various institutions that are funding media. So they have enormous influence and power over narratives.

41:39Yep. And then you have people like Bill Nye who's not even a scientist. No, I know he's an engineer, which is really wild. Right. Like right. A guy who's not a scientist is the science guy. And this is the guy that is a spokesperson. I find spokespeople for science that are arrogant. Very strange. It's a very strange thing because science is a there's a scientific method. And that's what science is. Science is applying scientific method and data and trying to find out the truth based on what we know. It's not trust the experts. No, especially when the experts are severely compromised. It's the opposite of that because remember, it comes out the science comes out of Christianity.

42:18It comes out of the desire to understand God's creation. And then over time, the church gives more and more freedom to the scientists to study things that end up being quite inconvenient. Like the earth revolves around the sun or there's this, you know, there's evolution or all these different things that scientists discover. It's the opposite of doctrine. They're discovering things that are counter doctrinaire. Right. So it's becoming, it's, I mean, this is where, you know, you get to this. Science is basically people are trying to make it take the place of religion. They're trying to turn it into an authority.

42:48And of course, it can't do that because science is just supposed to tell you how things are. It's not supposed to tell you what you should do. That's the realm of ethics and politics. Didn't the concept of it come to Descartes in a dream of science? Yeah. I believe so. Definitely the idea. See if you could find how he figured out where he initially came up with the concept of science, but it was understanding, understanding nature through, through measurement. I forget exactly how, how he came up with it, but I'm 99 % sure came to him in a dream that I believe it was an agonangel that brought him this information in a dream.

43:28I mean, all these early scientists, including Newton's French philosopher mathematician believed that he had three dreams in November 10th, 1619 that revealed the basis for the scientific method and his philosophical methods. He was possessed by a genius who revealed answers in a dazzling light. He went to bed exhausted and dreamed three dreams. He envisioned reforming all knowledge, understanding the nature of existence and how to be certain of that knowledge. Descartes dreams are considered a philosopher's dream and are considered to be authentic. His interpretations of the dreams are supported by biographical material, neuroscientific theory and psychoanalytic theory.

44:08Descartes dreams also the subject of the world according to mathematics, a series of essays that examines the influence of mathematics on society. The essays consider how mathematics can be applied to civilization, how these applications can be beneficial, dangerous or irrelevant. So it came to him in a dream. The idea of it initially, it's very interesting that human beings lived for so long before the scientific method came along and now it has become this weird thing that's been captured by people or so -called experts, the spokespeople for the science, which is always dangerous. When you have an enormous group of intelligent people, which the United States is.

44:47The United States is 330 million people. Some of them have degrees. Some of them are just brilliant people that have spent a lot of time studying things and there's a lot of them. There's a lot of people. So when you have all these people debating things and you want to maintain control and push a narrative, that chicken's very messy. And the best way to handle that is to have certain people be the stern purveyors of the science. That's it. When you criticize Anthony Fauci, you criticize science. That's right. He said that. It's incredible. That was a wild thing to say, but it's so transparent because it shows how they really think that you are and it's scolding.

45:29You are not supposed to. It's the same thing that happened when Martin Luther translated the Bible into phonetic languages because no one could speak Latin. No one had a read Latin. It was poor people. But when he translated it into German and all these different languages, people could read and said, hey, this is up to you to interpret what God said. The church was like, hey, fuck face. You're cutting in on a racket. We need people that are the spokesperson for God. The people that are going to tell you what God meant. You don't get to decide what God meant. That fucking dude is dressed like a wizard.

46:02He gets to decide. So they're wearing these crazy costumes that regular people don't get to wear, which makes you think, well, he's got the wacky costume and the fish head hat. He must know more than me, which is a weird play on authoritarianism. It's a weird. It's a very strange thing that people accept when people have costumes on. If cops were wearing like Nirvana T -shirts and board shorts, he'd be like, hey, fuck you, man. Just a regular dude. But you are going 55 and a 50. When he's wearing a uniform, I'm like, damn, I'm getting in trouble with a uniform person. This is real. They've proven it.

46:40They actually do studies where they, if you put somebody in a white scientist's coat or a white doctor's coat or put a set of scope on them, people trust them more. Sure. It's just automatic. It's incredible. So do you? Yeah. Why not? They're scientists. They've got a thessascope. They know what my heart beat per minute is. So the most unscientific thing is when people say things like this science is telling us to do this. No, no, no, no. Science doesn't tell us to do anything. It's describing reality. You can make predictions of what would happen if you do different things, but that's not science telling us what to do.

47:14Science can't do that. And so especially when you stifle debate. If you're stifling debate, you're stifling science. You are anti -science if you are anti -debating about science. That's right. Or at least the data. It's very similar to free speech in that same way. Yes. If you're just defending the speech that you agree with and you're not actually defending free speech, the test of whether or not you're defending free speech, same as the test of your defending science, is that bring it on? Well, as soon as you're censoring people like Jay Batataria and Peter McCullough and Robert Malone, as soon as you're doing that.

47:49These people are rock solid credentialed physicians. Peter McCullough has the most scientific papers published in his field in human history. This is a legitimate scientist slash doctor and he's telling you. He's telling you. He's using the actual methods that you're telling people, trust the science. He's actually doing it and he's got a whole list of credentials to his name. He's a very accomplished person in this field and yet they're censoring him because what he was saying was going against narratives. So you're stifling debate, which is everyone knows is the wrong way to do it. Even if he's wrong, the correct thing to do is to get him publicly to talk to someone who is right and have the world see how this person who is right is going to correct him on the errors of his analysis.

48:48And then we all learn. But instead, what do they do? They try to get him booted off of social media, which is very sketchy behavior. We don't like that. That's what Francis Collins said we need to do a devastating take down of these fringe epidemiologists referring to the barrington declaration about a chariot and the two other and and the two old off cold off and then I can't remember Sinitra Gupta from Oxford. I think it's the third. But yeah, I mean, but I mean, even a more dramatic example is like, you know, a lot of the people that did the early pioneering work showing that COVID escaped from a lab were like anonymous people on the internet, anonymous loose.

49:28That is legitimate. I mean, the idea, like credentialism, credentialism is the enemy of science, the idea that you need to have some some established credentials. In part, because the system reproduces its own ideology, professors give, they hire people and give tenure and give PhDs to people who agree with them. That's how they feel like their legacy will continue. They don't normally promote people, younger generation, if they have radical disagreements for them. So they're necessarily going to come outside of the establishment. Right. It's sort of like every other institution where people want to get ahead, you have to play the rules.

50:06Yeah, you have to play the game by the rules that's established by the people that are controlling the game. Yeah, it's conformism. It's just bizarre when that happens with science and mathematics and with all these different things that we thought of as these hard sciences, like, it's information -based, database. And it's even more dangerous when it's in health and medical context. I'll give you another example. I mean, American Academy of Pediatrics, my friend Marty McCarrie just came out with this amazing book called Blind Spots. Yeah, Blind Spots. Where he looks at American Academy of Pediatrics, look at what they did.

50:36They recommended letting babies sleep on their stomachs that resulted in the sudden infant death syndrome. And babies, like many babies died from that. Suffocated, right? Suffocated. They recommended not giving children peanuts. And they created the peanut allergy epidemic. And now they're recommending transgender medicine. In all three cases, there was never any science to support any of those positions. And it's bizarre, because I mean, when you read this book, you kind of look into it, you're like, what was going on? Was there some special interest or whatever it was just like ego. And also it was a desire.

51:17In many cases, it was a desire to have answers to problems that they should never have given answers to. Peanut allergies, for example, there were a few tiny number of people that tiny number of kids who had peanut allergies. But they came to AAP and they said, what should we do about it? AAP goes, well, it's better just to be safe than sorry to recommend that parents don't give their kids peanuts. They ended up creating the peanut allergy epidemic. They ended up making it. And it's an incredible story. Do you know the other theory of why there's so many peanut allergies and so many allergies in general?

51:48No. I don't know if this is true. Obviously, I'm not an expert at any of these things that I'm talking about. But the theory is that when you're vaccinating children and you're using aluminum, which is, so you have the inert virus, you have the dead virus, and you have this agitator, this thing that causes people to have this reaction. And then they find the inert virus, they develop antibodies for it. That's how vaccines work. But that aluminum causes severe allergic reactions and can cause you to become allergic to various things, including peanuts. This is, I'm butchering this for sure, but Brett Weinstein has made this this argument.

52:28And he believes that's possibly why he has a severe wheat allergy. It could be, I mean, in this case, they had a pretty good study comparing American kids to Israeli kids. And the Israeli kids had peanuts at young ages and they didn't have these allergies. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have to check. But in the very vaccinate for COVID, I mean, it was an interesting way. Israelis were. Interesting. Yeah. I believe they mandated it. I mean, what's so amazing about that, assuming that Marty's account is correct, what's incredible about that story is that you had, so first of all, something like like over 14 years went by before they did a study showing that depriving the kids of peanuts at a young age was creating the allergies.

53:07But everybody, there's a whole field called immunology. And there's all these immunologists who were watching this happen. And they would know from their basic theory, which has been around for thousands of years, that you would end up creating allergies by not having that early exposure. So one of the, so you're always like, I haven't, this is like another case of this is like we're working on, I'm working on this study of like the last Harvard president who came to power, Claudine Gay, who ended up leaving. She was not a great scholar. You know, she was actually in trouble for plagiarism. That was why she ended up having to leave.

53:45But you know, one that was obviously after those hearings, was after those hearings. And then she said that there's crazy things about someone commissioned the plagiarism to go after her because of that. But what's amazing when you look at it, you know, Chris Rufo surfaced this glossary, this DEI glossary diversity equity, inclusion glossary that was all these words that she were supposed to use and basically woke language is supposed to use. And she was, she was the DEI, going around and making the professors and the faculty all use this language. I mean, it's Orwellian. How is it that like these power, you're a Harvard professor.

54:20You're like, this accomplished person. You've achieved a lot. I mean, maybe you're, you know, maybe you're actually part of the problem in some ways. But how is it that you would just, some faculty member gives you a list of a glossary and you just go, oh, okay, I'm going to use your words. It's like something's going on in these institutions where people are bullied into things that they know are wrong. You know, and so it's a failure, it's not just an intellectual failure. It's like a failure of courage as well so that you just end up going along with that. I don't want to be the guy that is accused of being a racist.

54:53I don't want to be the person accused of, of causing childhood peanut allergies, even though that's the thing. You don't want to miss that on tenure. There's all these things going for you, but it's, it's classic emperors new clothes. We're like, kind of, everybody in the room is like this glossary is racist and insane. Or telling parents not to give kids peanuts is insane because we've never had more allergies since we started banging this. How did it go on so long? I think that's one of the things that, you know, that is one of the remedies, I think, of the, of the internet age and having these alternative media.

55:25That is a remedy to basically have people calling bullshit on it from outside those institutions because, I mean, this is American Academy of Patriots. If you're just an ordinary new parent and you're, you know, oh, the other one, by the way, is infant formula, recommending seed -based AAP recommended seed -based infant formulas, which were terrible for kids. And of course, we know that breast milk is superior for all these reasons and the antibodies and creating the immune system response. So, I mean, here you have the major organization, recommending how to take care of kids with not one but four separate health scandals that it helped to create.

56:02Why should that organization even exist anymore? And that's just like literally one of the institutions, but if you kind of just go down, you know, Harvard, New York Times, you know, American Medical Association. And, you know, how about COVID? I mean, most Americans agree now that COVID was invented in a lab in China, escape from the lab. So, you have another case where the, the, the, these institutions are actually creating the problems they claim to be solving. You sound like it's our science to me. I don't like that. If that's what it is, sign me up. I mean, this is actually the subject. You asked someone, I was here, you asked me what the new book was.

56:41And this is what it is. Pathocracy is the new book. Why elites subvert civilization? And that's the big question is, how is it like that the institutions and we're taking this concept of eye atrogenesis where the classic examples, you go to the hospital for some ailment and you end up getting an infection and die. That's considered that when the healthcare system creates sickness, taking that and looking at a whole bunch of other institutions. Why, you know, when the news media demands censorship and create propaganda, the FBI creating crimes and entrapments, potentially, you know, with, with informants and others, you know, how is, what's happening in these institutions that they end up creating the problems that they're trying to solve or that they're claiming to solve?

57:25The crazy thing is, it seems to be an emergent behavior pattern. When people get into power, when, when people have power, they always go in this very particular direction of control. And this was what the founding fathers of the Constitution, the people that founded this country, when they were laying it out, they were trying to prevent that from taking place. And they had this very elaborate plan to sort of subvert normal human behavior to stop it from taking root in this country and to make a better experiment and self -government than what they'd experienced under dictatorships. And people always want to get it back to where they're comfortable, which is being a dictator.

58:09Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, it's such a brilliant system. And I mean, there's this famous, I can remember if it was Jefferson or somebody who, one of the founding fathers, I was like, we need a revolution every, you know, 50 years or something. That's clearly, we're overripe for massive reform. And in 1975, we had the church committee hearings, which is where we found out about the CIA assassinations and MK Ultra and the, you know, the poisons and all the stuff that the CIA was doing. We're clearly overdue for it. I mean, it's been 50 years. Do you imagine what they're doing now? We see some of it.

58:43Well, this, the guy who tried to shoot Trump, the guy who shot on the roof, like, what was, what was the deal with that? And why haven't we, why do we not, where's the information? Where's the press conference? I mean, where's his emails? Where's the, where's his social media posts? His, his apartment was professionally scrubbed. Unbelievable. Yeah, his home was professionally scrubbed. They didn't even find silverware in it. I have it. This is the second guy. Yeah. The second guy that was recruiting people to go fight in Ukraine. Well, he sounds like a full -on loon. You know, and I think when you're, if I was an intelligence agent, and I was trying to do this kind of stuff, I would find people already out of their fucking minds.

59:24Right. I'd reach out to them. I was going to say, being a loon doesn't seem to be disqualifying to be recruited into, into intelligence work. Well, it seems to be a very valuable asset. You know, like, that's what Lee Harvey Oswald was. He was a fucking loon. And they probably recruited him and knew all along that he was the guy that were going to pin it on. Right. And this kid is probably a very similar case, the kid that shot Trump. And when you find out that this kid was in a black water commercial, just two years before like, what? Who's he in contact? Are they like, what? Was it black water or a black rock?

1:00:00Oh, black rock. Sorry. Black rock. Yeah. Just protecting you from your future lawsuits. I just fucked those up. It's a black rock commercial. I've said it right and wrong both time, like many times. No, I mean, I, it's, it's amazing these things. I mean, or even the, remember the, the trans shooter, we didn't get her diary. Well, it was very, it was rough. Like, some of it is leaked. And I, I guess it was probably people trying to discourage hate against trans people. But the reality is, the majority of the last few school shooters have been trans. This is also something that's conveniently left out of the discussion.

1:00:35And that's not even the real problem. It's not like trans people are violent. The real problem is psychiatric drugs. And that's the thing that no one wants to make a connection with how many of these mass shooters are on psychiatric drugs. And the, the answer is the majority of them. Well, they say that. But of course, I did a, I reported on the guy that attacked Paul Pelosi, Nancy Pelosi's husband with a driver. And I mean, he, first of all, I reported out that, you know, you go to his house and he was homeless and he was a drug addict and he had mental illness. And you go to his home in Berkeley and there's a black lives matter sign in a rainbow flag and all that.

1:01:11But the media all reported that he was a right -wing Trump supporter. Like, that was, so they were very. He didn't hear that at all. Oh, yeah. Really? That's hilarious. Yeah. But in that case, they didn't, they didn't hesitate to release that information that he had been posting about QAnon and criticizing the Democrats and whatnot. So it's clearly ideologically selective of who's, which, which assailants in political information gets released. Well, and then unfortunately, there was a bunch of conspiracy theories that he was his lover and he was in the house. And, but if you see the guy while he's talking to the cops and holding the hammer and Paul Pelosi is trying to hold onto the hammer, the whole thing is met.

1:01:50Like, why is Paul Pelosi still having a drink in his hand? Like, dude, you're in a mortal struggle with a man who has a fucking hammer in his hand and you're, you're holding the hammer with one hand because you want to keep your drink. I couldn't figure out why the cops didn't just go grab the hammer in that moment. They sat there and waited. I don't think they knew exactly what was going on. It was very weird looking. It was very strange. Like, it didn't seem like Paul Pelosi was, he wasn't screaming or in danger. He seemed very calm. He's probably trying to slow this guy down and relax him and calm him down while the cops were arriving and just didn't ever feel like he was going to get hit in the head with a hammer, which is what wound up happening.

1:02:26It's the video so disturbing. But if you look at the man in the video, he's clearly out of his fucking mind. Right. You know, there's something wrong with that guy. Like, he could tell right away. Like, here it is. Oh, it's so disturbing. It's so strange. Like, why isn't it? But I don't quite understand why the cops don't rush in at that point. Right. Why is Paul holding onto his drink? Well, this guy's got a fucking hammer in his hand. Yeah. The guy's got two hands on it. Maybe there's not as much time that goes by. That's what, like, that seems like they're struggling. The cops should have rushed in that.

1:02:56Yeah. Oh, that's awful. Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God. This is so horrible. The video is so horrible when you hear him snoring. And also, he's an 80 year old man. Okay. For an 80 year old man to get knocked unconscious in the head with a hammer like that, he's not going to ever be the same again. Yeah. You know, that is, that's bad for a 20 year old person to get hit in the head with a hammer. It's awful for an old guy like that to get KO'd like that with a fucking hammer where he's snoring in the cut. I mean, I think the pro, both sides, both left and right often attribute political motivations to mentally ill people who if you go through like, if you go through that guy's David to pop, I think it was his name.

1:03:35If you go through, if you go through this stuff that he was posting, it's just a mix of crazy left, right stuff. It was clearly mentally ill. Yeah. Yeah. And but clearly mentally ill, by the way, people, they will adopt whatever ideology is the most persuasive, like they don't really, they're not objectively thinking about things. He's out of his fucking mind. Well, we don't blame John Hingley Jr. We don't blame, uh, um, Jody Foster for, for John Hingley Jr's assassination of Ray. Right. You don't go, if it weren't for Jody Foster, you know, he was a Jody Foster fan. Yeah. That's why it's on her.

1:04:08Yeah. Nobody says that. Yeah. So he's a crazy person. I mean, look, we're in this, I mean, look, we're in a mental, I mean, we've been in our countries just in a bad way in terms of mental health, right? We're just not taking care of it. I mean, no, no country in, I mean, we have, we have a lot of guns and then you have no proper psychiatric or mental health care system, which is crazy because now you have telehealth and, you know, we should have a bunch of ways to deal with it, but it's just not who we are, I guess. Well, it's also, it's very difficult to get people to seek treatment. Yeah. And, you know, and then also the treatment, especially in terms of things like SSRIs, they have to try a bunch of things on you.

1:04:45It's not as simple. Everybody has a different level of mental illness, right? And so there's also different causes of this mental illness and there's different medications that work, right? And they don't really know until they try it on you. And then, then we find out now that the entire theory that it's based on, which is that there is some sort of chemical imbalance is incorrect. It's not true. So then, okay, we have to take this holistic view of the body and the mind and the health of the individual based on lifestyle and choices and community and friends and all these different things that we don't want to take into consideration.

1:05:20Instead, they're just giving people pills and they give people pills and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes it causes a dissociation effect. These dissociatives, these weird drugs that people take where they don't even exactly know what the fuck they're doing while they're doing it. Well, I mean, I think also, I mean, yeah, 100%, and we also, unlike Europe and whatever, we don't allow, we don't coerce, we don't mandate anti -psychotics to people with schizophrenia or those kinds of treatments were much more libertarian than that. You know, I mean, this guy, particularly the Pelosi guy, I actually, I can't prove it, but my theory would be that he, that there may not have been an underlying mental illness.

1:06:03He had a rough life. He did a huge quantity of drugs. You know, there's just a set of people as we've known from LSD over the decades. There's some people that take LSD. We're now seeing it with merit with the high potency marijuana. They never come back. The trigger psychosis. Yeah. And it's probably, they already have a propensity for it. The thought is that I figured with percentage of the population, I think it's 1 % as a tendency towards schizophrenia or will eventually become schizophrenic and then you take that 1%. That's a lot of people, man. Oh, for sure. One out of 100, you take one out of 100, do you give them a giant dose of edible marijuana and they're gone.

1:06:37Well, this is the, this is a Mark Andreessen who you add on was, was making this point about ayahuasca, which is very fashionable among the elite set. And I think the point that I, the residence with me is, you know, when I was, we're going to San Francisco, after the summer of love, 1967, and when all the, every shows up in San Francisco and they're tripping out on acid, the privileged kids, the educated elite, they go back to Yale and Harvard, I think, into the summer. But the working class kids, the kids that were not as educated, you know, lower middle class, they hung around in San Francisco and got addicted to speed in heroin.

1:07:11And that was the early beginnings of the homelessness crisis. Was this after the sweeping psychedelics acts of 1970, what made everything schedule one? No, this, this is back into the summer of love, which is 1967. So even in 67, they were doing speed. Oh, yeah. So it was just, remember speeds, the, yeah, is the beats, right? The beats, the beats of the early 60s. They're all a caroac writes his book on speed. Right. That's probably part of it too, right? Like, I mean, it was ubiquitously used during the Nazis. The Nazis were, too. So he was around for a long time. The problem with speed is it works.

1:07:48Oh, it really works. Like, people take it and the people, I've never fucked around with any of it. But the people that I know that have tried out of all, they tell you, like, you feel like you could do anything. And you get things done. And that's a tract of everybody, whether you're a hippie or a capitalist or anybody, you feel more empowered. Until you don't. Until you don't. Yeah, especially when it stops working well and you keep taking more and more of it. And then next, you know, you're out of your mind, you're losing your teeth. Right. Yeah. But it is, it's an important point because, yeah, people take these drugs for a reason.

1:08:17They can be performance enhancing. And there's a certain group of people. I mean, you know, Carl Hart, you know, there's people that write drug use for grownups. There's people in his Columbia University professor. You know, there's people that have a very high internal self -control that are able to do these drugs. But is that the real problem? Is that we don't develop human beings with a level of self -control and a level of discipline and we don't encourage discipline. We don't encourage, and not, I mean, like, disciplining a person, I mean self -discipline. We don't encourage this concept that to be able to force yourself into doing difficult things, you empower yourself and strengthen, you strengthen your mind and your resolve and your, your spirit.

1:08:57And you can, and if you genuinely gravitate towards positive results, positive results in your social life, positive results in business, positive results in artistic endeavors, if you genuinely gravitate towards those things, like, that is probably going to keep you on the right path in life. And that we should really look at things in that way. Like, there should be guidelines. Like, what are you trying to do with your life? Like, why do you feel bad? Like, what is, what is wrong with your body? What are you eating? How are you sleeping? What kind of people you're surrounded with? What happened to you and you're a child?

1:09:32Did someone beat you? Did you get sexually molested? Like, what is, what demons are haunting you? And what, in fact, can be done to help you? And even, I mean, I would even leave off a lot. I mean, you can do some of that. But I mean, I just, we have this beautiful philosophy called stoicism. You know, it's amazing. It actually was, we now understand now that it was part, it became part of Christianity for, that's why. Because Christianity, the correction to Judaism, of course, that's all about compassion and care. But when you lose the stoicism part of Christianity, it all just becomes compassion.

1:10:03The whole society gets started around compassion. That's where you get victimhood to theology. Right. You should absolutely should be teaching because of course, I mean, the problem with the focus on the trauma, you know, it's like, you start to, everybody suddenly has trauma and you can sort of become obsessed with it as opposed to like, no, the whole point of becoming a full human being is overcoming adversity. It's going through that process. Stoicism is a, is a philosophy that gets you there. But it's been absolutely denigrated, you know, like when I was, when I was very right, wing -ish. It's considered right -wing.

1:10:34Of course, it's the most emancipatory. It's the most liberating philosophy because it says, it's all about your mentality. It's all about what you do when you get up in the morning. It's your mentality. It's your behaviors. It's up to you. Yeah. It's not up to the government. And if you read meditations by Marcus Relius, it's very progressive. Not only is it very progressive, it's very compassionate and kind and considerate. Like one of the things that he talks about is forgiveness. It's a very important quality that he believes that, you know, he works on. It's for everybody. Yeah. It's, it's not, he's not saying, you know, there's other people like Nietzsche, which would say, hey, most people can't, you know, do cope with the seriousness.

1:11:11But they're saying everybody has this internal potential. It's a completely liberal. It's what leads the human potential movement, the self -help movement. You get to like, you know, I was looking at, you know, in 1964, they passed the Civil Rights Act. Within a few months, Lyndon Johnson goes and gives us famous Harvard, I'm sorry, Howard University speech, where it's like, I was just shocking how quickly it occurs, where it's just basically about all the problems of the black community and how we still owe this debt to the black community and how the black community has been victimized. The like, that hears this moment where you should, you could be like, hey, look, we've just leveled the playing field.

1:11:45We've got the Civil Rights Act. It's going to end racially. That's all behind us. Now it's up to us as individuals. Instead, they come out and they go, now we've got to go and we pity you and take care of you. It's really toxic discourse. It's, it's, it's awful. And it then has just, it's just expanded to everybody, including children, where like the part of the over -involved mothering of children is to treat children as though they're victims. Right, forever. It's, it's, it's actually, and you see how it really helps the medical, the medicalization of everything. We, I mean, much of what we're, the, the Transmedicine is pathologizing and medicalizing puberty.

1:12:28Right. With the same thing with pregnancy, pregnancy often is medicalized, is treated as something's wrong with you. And you know, we know the C -sections now or we think it doesn't also undermines the immunity that you get from a vaginal birth. So there's also, it is important sometimes, right? Sometimes in emergencies, but it's a classic thing where it's just over. Women with small hips. And it's just a, it's just overdone. Right. It's done. I mean, often you get professional women are like, I'm scheduling my, my C -section. Right, right. Because they don't want to also blow out the hoo -ha.

1:12:57Yeah. The reason why I brought up trauma before us, I think that's one of the legitimate uses of psychedelics that I think there, it's, it's pretty provable that there's positive outcomes, particularly MDM and MDMA for soldiers. This is what maps have been working on. And when you ask people in the service of their country to go overseas and kill people and become a part of a war and get shot at and see their friends die, those people are going to come back with unimaginable strain on their psyche, unimaginable. And the one thing universally that these people have sought help with that has helped them.

1:13:42It's been psychedelics. And it's huge in the special operations community, discussions of nachocyewaska, but I began in particular, which is absolutely non -addictive. I mean, and apparently, I don't have experience with it, but apparently an unbelievably brutal, introspective experience where you see your entire life and it's sort of laid out why your behavior patterns exist in the way they exist. And oftentimes they combine the, I began experience with another psychedelic, whether it's psilocybin or five MEO, DMT, or there's, there's a bunch of different ones that they try. And they, all of it has to be done in other countries.

1:14:18A lot of them, it's done in Mexico because it's illegal in the United States, but I have personally talked to people. I have Sean Ryan on the podcast the other day. He's a personal experience of how it changed his life. I know multiple soldiers where it's changed their life. And this is illegal. And this is something that we should be looking at every single tool available to help people. Stoicism, absolutely. But soldiers are the most stoic motherfuckers, those Navy SEALs that the most stoic fucking get shit done people you're ever going to run into in your life. And if they're still struggling, maybe these things are tools.

1:14:52I agree with you that both marijuana and real psychedelics, hard psychedelics, like LSD. I think there's certain people that shouldn't do anything. And I think the only way we find that out is we run real studies and real, do real tests and really try to understand what get some real science behind the mechanism behind these things and what is wrong with these people that are freaking out? And what is what is the cause of these psychotic breaks? What is the cause of schizophrenia? Like, especially when someone doesn't have it and then develops it. So some, there's some biological mechanism. There's something taking place in the body that all the wires get crossed.

1:15:29And now this person thinks they're getting Satan's talking to them. So what is that? Well, and some of it might be age related. Maybe you don't want it. Not necessarily with these high -dose drug experiences. If people do acid and then they become schizophrenia, like, what is that? Some people do acid and they figure out the double -heel extent of the DNA. And they have incredible visions, like Francis Crick. Other people, they do it. And they're like, what the fuck? Like, now they're gone. The guy from Pink Floyd, gone. Everybody knew somebody when I was a kid growing up who did too many drugs and never came back.

1:16:05I know multiple people that have had schizophrenic breaks from marijuana. Yeah, I mean, I, like, I'm very open to it. I just, I worry that we have a quick fix society still. Absolutely. And so, you know, it's like, you have PTSD, you had trauma from, say, fine, a foreign war, you were abused as a child, or you were raped as a woman. And I think those, you can get some insight, spiritual insight, existential insight to confront your demons. But you're still going to have to get that everyday in confront those demons. That's true. But I think it's a tool in the toolbox. And I think to demonize that tool because some people have a bad effect on it.

1:16:41It's like to demonize all the things that people enjoy that you could consider legal vices, like gambling. I do not think you should outlaw gambling. But I think some people should not fucking gamble. I, you know, I grew up, saw it well in my 20s, my early 20s in a pool hall. And, you know, I played pool like eight hours a day, played competitively. And I was around a lot of gamblers, a lot of gamblers. And it is a disease like anything. It's a disease like heroin. It's a disease like alcoholism. Like these motherfuckers can't stop. Those people shouldn't gamble, right? Like they are gambling addicts.

1:17:18And there's some people that should not do marijuana. And there's some people that should not drink. There's some people that there's a lot of things they shouldn't do. They shouldn't, they don't have whatever it is that allows you to pick up a glass of whiskey, have a drink. And the next day, boy, I feel like shit, I'm going to the gym. And then you don't drink again for a month, you know, there's some people that realize like there's certain vices that you can do in moderation. And they're fine. Couple glasses of wine at dinner and everyone's laughing and having a great time. Nothing wrong with that.

1:17:48But there's certainly some people that cannot handle that. And I think we need to give those, if you want a better, stronger society, we need to develop tools for all people to follow that will give you a better life, including people that have issues with alcohol and gambling and sex and you know, fill in the blanks, drugs and whatever it is that you're interested in and that you're addicted to rather. And I think there's a bunch of tools that can be used, if used correctly, just like I used to say, like you could, you could take a hammer, you could build a house with a hammer or you could hit yourself in the face of your fucking crazy.

1:18:26Paul Pelosi. Yeah. Paul Pelosi. It doesn't mean that we should get rid of hammers. Right. It's like some people have used psychedelic drugs and had incredible insight and it's completely changed their lives and now they're better for it. And then there's some people that we can point to that lost their way and they're gone now. And we might not ever get about, I mean, Howard Stern talked about it famously. He took acid and he was really fucked up for a long period of time where you really thought he was going crazy. And I think in that case, it's very dangerous. There's also, there's a dosing thing when you're taking something that's made in some fucking hippies bathtub while he's listening to the grateful dead.

1:19:01Like what are the odds that you know exactly what the dose is? Like what are the odds that this is pure? Especially if you're doing a drug today, because if you're doing a drug today, you're rolling the dice and whether or not you're going to die of a fentanyl overdose, even if you're taking something that you would think would be completely benign, like, you know, cocaine up. Oh, cocaine is a big one. That's a big one. But there's other stuff that people are taking like Molly. They're taking Molly. It's not really Molly. It's lace with fentanyl and they die. They're taking street drugs like anti -anxiety medication that are forged drugs that are actually lace with fentanyl and they're dying from that kind of stuff.

1:19:39There's people that, you know, maybe they developed an addiction to benzos and then their doctor says, look, I'm cutting you off and then they fucking find it on the streets and they die from fentanyl overdoses. So I think there's tools that could be used. I think this panacea, this idea that it's a one -shop fits all you go do ayahuasca. Now you're a better person. I don't believe that. I think there's a lot of work to be done. I think there's a lot of work to be done and I think there's a process as we are growing as human beings. You start off as a child where you don't get to pick your parents and they bring with them a bunch of baggage because they were raised by people in the 1940s and they didn't know what the fuck they were doing and they were raised by people who literally came over on boats from Europe to escape tyranny and chaos and they came over to America to the most desperate wage work you could possibly get.

1:20:32Doc workers, steel workers, factory workers, they would do anything. They were desperate. They would take any jobs. They would work on you know railroads and whatever the fuck they could because they just wanted to be able to eat right and they raised your grandparents and then your grandparents raised your parents and then you're here going okay what are we doing and there's some tools. Stoicism is a great tool. It's a great tool. Discipline is a great tool. I think we are blessed in this time that you can hear a lot of speeches from brilliant people. There's a lot of great brilliant people that have talked about various ways that they've overcome their problems on YouTube and on you know podcasts and you can learn a lot and some of them use different tools.

1:21:13Some of them use the tools of meditation and yoga. Some of them use the tools of fasting and some of them use stoicism. Some of them use martial arts. Some of them used, there's a lot of different things that people do to make themselves a better person and I think to discount one like psychedelics because there's a bunch of people that abuse it and get fucked up from it. I think it's foolish because the profound effects that these things have should not be minimized. They shouldn't they shouldn't be dismissed because they're illegal. They shouldn't be dismissed because of ignorance and they certainly shouldn't be dismissed by people who have not experienced them and have not had those profound changes that take place in their perspective on life because there's a lot of people a lot and I think it's probably been going on through the course of human history.

1:22:01It's probably what caused us to consider democracy in the first place. I mean if you've ever read the, if you've ever read the Brian Merer rescue book, the immortality key? No, I have it actually I haven't read it. It's in there, yeah. That's what it's all about. It's all about the illusinian mysteries and what these people would do. They were taking drug -laced wine and they were coming up with concepts of democracy and they were trying to figure out society in a more equitable and even peaceful way and they were, you know, the philosophies that they were coming up with to this day. People read their stuff and it's profound and these people were all doing drugs.

1:22:41Yeah. We can't seem to find, you know, we do freedom really well here in the United States. We can't seem to find the balance between that and proper care for people. I mean the Netherlands has potency limits on marijuana. We don't. Right. But the thing about potency limits, they don't have a dose limit, right? So even if it's potency, so let's say like let's get crazy and say 39 % because that 39 % is like high THC apparently. We looked it up the other day. If like like crazy THC that really fucks people up can get as high as 39 % they don't go that high there. Dutch government goes to 15%. Okay, so here's my point.

1:23:16Three hits versus one. Okay, so if you have 30 % THC and you take one hit, oh my god, I'm so high. If you have 15 % THC, you take two hits. But if you're a crazy person, you take 30 Bong hits of 15 % THC. You're going to get fucked up. You're going to get fucked up. No matter what, no one's controlling the amount of pot that you smoke. Snoop dog smokes pot all day long. When you hang out with that dude, that dude sat there. He rolled like eight blunts in the course of a three hour conversation. He just kept rolling blunts. He had a disco machine. The guy's awesome. But I mean, whatever tolerance he has is a preposterous and it's not that guy who, you know, he's in grad school and he does some Bong hits from his friends and has his kids a friendly break and thinks that the government is put a recording apparatus in his pencils.

1:24:05You know, people lose their fucking way and it's not everybody. And I think we have to figure out like what is causing it? Not eliminated for the vast majority of people who don't have that effect. Well, we're just really bad at it. I mean, I think the bigger thing is, you go to Europe and it's like younger people will drink alcohol in moderation. Right, but isn't that because it's always been legal? And I think this is the problem with the United States and our demonizing of certain drugs. Like we celebrate certain drug. Look, I own a bar. You know, I'm not opposed to alcohol, but alcohol is one of the most destructive drugs that we have available.

1:24:40But yet, use socially responsible. It makes conversations more lively. It's a social lubricant. Everybody has a great time. You know, as long as you do it moderately or the right way, but it has consequences, but we don't do it. We don't do moderate. But the thing is, some people can moderately drink, right? We all agree to that, right? You're not an alcoholic. I quit drinking because I had a problem. Why did you quit? 2018. Oh, wow. September 21st. It's a good time to quit right before the shade of the fan. I drink, you know, I don't advocate prohibition of alcohol, but I would I would advocate constraining sales and just putting some limits on.

1:25:20I mean, the potency point that is well taken constraining how? Because is this like constraining, constraining free speech? If you're a grown adult, you want to drink yourself to death. So if you go over a man's house, and he has a wine cell, or should he be arrested? No, why is he so much wine? No, he drank all that wine. If you drink all that wine, you could kill everybody in the neighborhood. No, but I mean, I think, you know, for example, we've restricted it to liquor stores. Out of supermarkets, we've had don't sell on Sundays. But that's only a hard liquor. Hard liquor. You can go to us.

1:25:49Yes, you can go to supermarket and buy beer and wine. When I was in high school, there was a there's at 18, you could drink 3 .2 beer. Wow. And at 21, you could drink a higher potency beer. So again, your point is. How old do you? 53. I'm 57. When I was a kid, they changed the age from 18 to 21 before I hit 18. I was like, fuck. Yeah. But they didn't stop you from drinking. Maybe that was local. Is that local? Is that Massachusetts only? No, it didn't stop me from drinking. Come on. And nobody, everybody, every kid gets together in parties, and they'll figure out a way to drink. But my point is, if alcohol, if prohibition had succeeded, okay, in the 1920s, and we had illegal alcohol in the United States, no one would know how to drink.

1:26:33No one. It would be just and you would never know what the fuck is in the drinking. You'd be still buying drinks. People would still buy drinks. There'd be jails filled with people who sold and bought alcohol. And there'd be a bunch of people that died because they got poised and drinking because they got drugs from they got their alcohol from the cartel. But so Joe, how far do you go then? I mean, do you sell math and fentanyl at 7 -11? But this is where it's this is where it gets to be a really interesting question, right? Because why not? Like you shouldn't buy it, but why should it be the only criminal sell it if we absolutely know that there's a market for it?

1:27:11Well, because should we allow people, if you listen to Dr. Carl Hart, who to me is the most brilliant person that I've ever met that does heroin all the time? I don't know if he does it all the time, but he says it's wonderful, you know, he's he's done it before. And you know, you know, stuff to take an account that he was a straight -laced clinician. He was not a drug user. He was a guy that was studying the effects of these things and realized that there's a bunch of gaslighting as to what their actual effects of the pure versions of these things are. And that this concept that they are unbelievably addictive and you can't stop yourself, he thinks as false.

1:27:46He's smarter and more educated about that subject than I am. Well, I mean, but look, the more available it is, the more people use, the more people use, the more addiction you get. But can you see that the same concept can be used to can dissame narrative, can be used to control free speech? Well, free speech. But can you see it? Well, in the sense that there is limits to free speech. We don't allow free speech for immediate incitement to violence, fraud, defamation, with a high bar for defamation. So it is, but can you see how you could say the problem in our society? Is it a bunch of people saying things that are incorrect and the only way to stop that is to censor them?

1:28:23The problem in society is that some people are drinking too much. The way to stop that is to moderate their drinking and control them. The problem with people that are addicted to drugs is we need to make drugs illegal so no one can become addicted to drugs. But it doesn't work that way because humans don't work that way. And humans don't like other humans telling them what to do. It was just you me and Jamie on an island. And I decide that coconut is illegal. And I'm going to put you in a cage that I created at a bamboo if you drink coconut milk because I think coconut is bad for you. And everybody else is saying, do I fucking love coconut?

1:28:56This guy is an asshole. Well, that doesn't make any sense, right? Because I'm a grown adult and I'm telling another grown adult to stop doing something. That's how I feel. But you're almost everything that doesn't hurt other people. I know, but we're looking at 112 ,000 deaths from illicit drugs last year as opposed to 20 or 20 thousand overdoses. Yeah, 75 ,000 overdoses accidentally. Yeah, because drugs are illegal. Well, no, it's not because drugs are illegal. It's because they became more available. Right. But because those drugs look at all started with the family, right? It all started with oxycodone and all that stuff.

1:29:29But the reality is that there's a bunch of people that are addicted to these drugs. And the way they're getting them is by getting drugs that are tainted with fentanyl. And that's a primary cause for the people that are overdosing. Did you say like 70 plus percent? 75 % is fentanyl. So that's because of the illegal drug market. No, if listen, it is because if just those opiates, pure opiates were available, you could make an argument that those 75 % would still be alive if they died from fentanyl overdose. No, they would they would also be dying of opioid overdose. Are you sure? Well, I mean, look here, let me give you an example.

1:30:04But there's a reason why they specify fentanyl because it's so much more deadly. But Joe, Europe does not have this drug death epidemic. Well, they also don't have an opioid crisis because they didn't prescribe it the way we did. Well, right. So they made opioids too much. Opiates were too available. Then heroin was too available and now fentanyl is too available. But it wasn't available. The solution is not to make it more available. But it wasn't available under it was available under false pretenses. First of all, they lied about it being addictive. Of course. And there's a lot of documentation of this.

1:30:33Not only did they lie, they testified about it. So they knew it was addictive. And then there was also never an opioid that was prescribed as an everyday thing because pain is something that you shouldn't have to live with. That's that's what that when I when I asked the Dutch, why don't you have an opioid epidemic? They didn't say because we don't have greedy pharmaceutical companies. They said because the doctor when you go to the doctor, the doctor doesn't say, you have some pain and this is the Dutch are famous for this. You have some pain. Yeah, you'll have some pain. Take some Advil if you want, but you're still going to have pain because you just had back surgery or whatever.

1:31:05So some of it is the culture of entitlement. But it's also they don't have a financial incentive to push this meditation because they have socialized medicine. 100%. This is part of the problem that we have in this country and we accept all sorts of socialized things like the fire department. That's basically a socialist idea. We're all going to contribute. It's all equal. The fire people work for everybody and they put out fires because we all need firemen, right? And sort of with public schools. It's very similar. But when it comes to medicine, we're very wary about that. But the problem is then people profit off of how much they can sell you.

1:31:40And when you have some monsters like the sacchar family and what the fuck they did, that's how you create this opioid crisis. Let's imagine that wasn't the case. So let's imagine this sweeping act in 1970 does not take place and all of these psychedelics, whether it's psilocybin, including marijuana, which is made illegal because of prohibition. Prohibition went off and then they started, you know, they went after marijuana. That was a new thing and, you know, William Randolph Hearst and Harry Anselinger. It's a long story, but it was really more about hemp as a commodity than it was actually about the drug.

1:32:11That's why they even called it marijuana. Marijuana was a name for a slang name from Wild Mexican tobacco. Didn't have anything to do with cannabis. So when they passed that, they made everything illegal, all these things illegal. And so then when the government comes along and takes this incredibly dangerous and addictive substance like oxycodone and says, let's think, you guys want to sell it? We'll make sure, we'll make sure the guys that are deciding whether or not you could sell it, get a cushy job in the pharmaceutical drug companies afterwards. We'll hook you up, you hook us up. And then that's what created the opioid crisis, not opioids being illegal or not being legal rather.

1:32:57Well, becoming available, but they became more available, but they became, you're describing ways they became more available. I mean, it was just heroin. It was just heroin. No one was doing heroin when I was a kid. Well, they were doing as much very rarely, but now everyone knows someone who knows someone who's died of oxycodone or oxycontin. Yeah. Or at least is addicted to it. But so the problem is you're, so in other words, you want these drugs to be less available, not more available. But who's to decide? That's the problem. And when you decide society, but when you decide, well, certainly for people of a certain age, we all agree to that.

1:33:32Like you shouldn't be able to do that when you're 16 years old. It's crazy. But if you're a 35 year old man, who's to tell you that you shouldn't be able to try heroin? I mean, you have to make a decision as a society because I mean, look, so Carl is right that most people that do opioids or heroin don't become addicted, the people that do become addicted, most of them are able to quit on their own. So only a small percentage of people become so addicted that they die from it. But that's a hundred, but that's 112 ,000 deaths a year. So are we going to just condemn the most vulnerable people? And there's the 112 ,000 people that died of drugs and drug poisons and drug overdoses last year are by definition the most vulnerable to those drugs.

1:34:11So are we just going to sacrifice 112 ,000 people from drugs? So Carl Hart can get high on heroin? I don't think so. For me, that's not a good calculation argument. That's not a fair calculation. I don't think that's the argument. But then how would then what's the alternative? Well, first of all, we've already established that 75 % of those people are dying because it's illegal. Because it's no. Because it's fentanyl. Well, but heroin is illegal too, Joe. Right, but they're not taking heroin. If they think they're taking heroin and they're getting fentanyl, they're getting poisoned because it's illegal.

1:34:40Yeah, but the number here, what I'll say too, it's a little bit more complicated that it was 20 ,000 deaths in the year 2000, 112 ,000 deaths last year. It was going up before fentanyl. So yes, it's hard to overdose. So on heroin, for sure kills people. Let's let's be clear about that. I'm not saying it's harmless. But it's not heroin. It's different, right? The curve goes up when they start prescribing it. The curve goes up when they start giving people prescription pills and telling them they need it after an accident. If you just had heroin available, do you think without recommendation, people would gravitate towards heroin?

1:35:13People generally learn. This is one of the reasons why you learn from other people's failures. There's not a lot of people that are crack advocates because crack didn't really work out good for fucking anybody. Yeah, no one's out there telling people to take crack. But if the government came out with some sort of, or not the government, a pharmaceutical drug company came around and the FDA approved it and it was some sort of a medication that gave you the exact same effects as crack. But they told you this is a great drug for people to overcome timidity. timidity is a real problem in our culture.

1:35:42They would pathologize timidity for sure. Yeah, I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. Like you could do that because that's essentially what they did with pain. And that's how they snuck in heroin, but it wasn't heroin. It was synthetic. But using that synthetic heroin and using it so ubiquitously and prescribing it is what caused that epidemic. You tricked people into getting addicted by telling people it wasn't addictive and then telling people they needed because of pain. And then of course your whole body is an agony because it's addicted to this stuff. And when you get off of it or you try to get off of it, you're in terrible, terrible pain.

1:36:13So the key is to stay on it. That's the trick. So if we didn't have that happen and in 1970, they didn't pass this act that told people that things like I began that cure people of addictions. Actually, we rewire the mind in some substantial way that stops all those addictive pathways and stops people from wanting to engage in these self -destructive behaviors because it makes you so aware of why you're doing it in the first place. We made all of those illegal at the same time. If that hadn't been done, we would have a much greater if they hadn't been done and if all of these compounds had been pursued under the name of real science.

1:36:52And we actually studied them openly. And you had the brightest and most brilliant minds running tests and studies and trying to figure out what's going on and what's good and what's not good and what's the right way to take it and what's the wrong way to take it. You wouldn't have the influence of the cartel because you wouldn't have this insane, I mean, who knows what the actual numbers are but it's hundreds of billions of dollars that are being earned south of our border by these ruthless, murderous gangs who control the drug trade because it's illegal in the country that has the most demand for it.

1:37:22Yeah, although let me respond to that last part. But remember, Obama comes in any restricts opioid prescriptions around 20, I think it was like 2009 -2010. So people are now going into fentanyl directly or from marijuana. They're going direct in. Yeah, they fucked everybody because they got addicted then they pulled the rug out from money. Yeah, so I mean, I'm not denying any of like, yeah, I mean, ultimately, kids need to be raised right. You need more self control. You need more delayed gratification. 100%. I also support marijuana decriminalization. I mean, drugs have two dimensions, right?

1:37:58There's one dimension which is the inherent toxicity of the drug and the other dimension is how you use it. Marijuana, nobody's ever overdosed from it. Nobody ever dies. You do get psychosis but I mean, really compared to other drugs, marijuana is fairly low toxicity. Alcohol, you know, actually when you read the history of alcohol prohibition, it did actually have health benefits alcohol prohibition because people drank less. But I agree. I agree. I mean, I think alcohol, like I think it should be legal. I like, I like the Dutch model. I like the restrictions because I think it does. It doesn't prevent people from getting it, but it just, it is constantly saying, hey, be careful with this.

1:38:36Right. But meth, heroin, fentanyl, I think absolutely illegal. Do what they do in Holland. I mean, they chase people down. They chase cocaine. Is there no cocaine in Holland? Of course there's cocaine there. Is there heroin? Sure. But they chase it. Makes it more expensive because it's less available. Now you get to, you get to kind of go, well, okay, so then you get to, we have a real world case, which is marijuana. We've legalized marijuana in California and many other states. The, the criminal element controlling the marijuana growth and industry in California is larger and more, more violent and more dangerous than it was before we decriminalized it.

1:39:15Do you know why though? Well, I mean, I think it's mostly because the market for black, the, the black market for marijuana is still much larger than the market for legal. In other words, you can buy marijuana for much cheaper, you know, informally through your dealer on the street. Then you can if you go into the store and some of that's, I will grant you that it's because the California, you can imagine when California decides to make marijuana legal, it, it's going to add a huge amount of tax and it goes and requires at a cost that legal marijuana is much more expensive. That's part of the issue.

1:39:44Yeah. But the, the issue is a little bit deeper. My friend John Norris wrote a book about this. It's called Hidden War and what happened was he was a game warden. So he was a guy that would check fishing licenses and stuff like that in California. In California. Yeah. And they found out that cartels were growing in national forest. Yes. So because they made marijuana legal, growing it illegally was just a misdemeanor. So because of that, 90 % of all the marijuana that's grown to all the places where it's illegal, all the states that it's illegal comes out of California. Right. And it is made by the cartel.

1:40:15So it's the same sort of a situation there, even though it's legal in California, it's, there's an illegal market. And this is the safest place to grow it because it's just become a misdemeanor. And we are also a very unique country and we have these wide swaths of land that are public that people could just go out on and just go, go for a walk in the woods. There's no restriction. It's ours. It's yours. And so they go out there and they set up shop and they use unbelievably toxic poison pesticides and herbicides. And that shit gets in your illegal marijuana. It's the same thing. It's because it's illegal that is causing all the violence.

1:40:53It's not necessarily because it's being taxed. And because there's a black market, the black market is because it's illegal in other states. It's not because people don't want to pay taxes on weed. Weed is so cheap. Not the legal weed. Yes, it is. It's so cheap. It's so cheap. It's more expensive than the illegal weed though. For sure, but it's still so cheap. Yeah. In terms of the efficacy, you think about how much it costs to go drinking. Like you go to a bar with your friends. It's like at the end of the night, you buy and rounds for people. It's hundreds of dollars, right? Hundreds of dollars a weed will put you on Pluto.

1:41:27You will be on fucking Pluto. Yeah. If you go to one of those places in LA that has like a store where they're just like an Apple store, you go in by weed for five bucks, you could be fucked up for a week. Oh, no, I get it compared to alcohol. It's cheap. It's cheap in terms of its effect. Even if you're paying 39 % taxes, which they were, I think they were doing Colorado, which is the first state to make it legally like fine. It's still cheap. It's not that expensive. I don't think it's driving the black market to undercut people. I think that's bullshit. I think what's going on is the black market exists because it's illegal in other states and you develop these enormous criminal organizations and they infiltrate legal stores in California and they do a lot of shady shit in California too, but they exist because it's illegal.

1:42:11So you think if marijuana were legal in across the whole United States, there would be no black market. There would be, but it won't be a powerful unit like the cartel in Mexico. Like the cartel in Mexico is like a government. It's like an enormous terrifying government of people that are profiting off of drugs because drugs are illegal in the United States. If everything was legal here and you could grow it yourself, marijuana, and with your marijuana, not cocaine, not heroin. Let's just start off with marijuana. Let's just start off with marijuana. Marijuana was legal in this country and you could grow it yourself.

1:42:46It's so cheap to grow. It's literally a weed, right? It grows like it's easy. It wouldn't be hard for people like a guy on the block grows it and and sells it and if it was just legal to do that instead of the government getting involved, then you'd have no black market drugs. It should just be a plant like a fucking tomato where you could grow tomatoes and sell tomatoes and you can go to the farmers market. Look at my tomatoes. It should be like that. I mean, I think that's where it's headed. I mean, my understanding is that that's where Florida is headed. Is that where Texas is? Where's Texas?

1:43:17Texas, it's illegal, but it's decriminalized in the city of Austin. And then the trade general Ken Paxton apparently doesn't like that and he wants that to stop. I think most of the people that want marijuana to be legal don't necessarily use it and don't necessarily really understand what it does. And there's this idea that it makes you lazy, which is my favorite. Like I know some of the most motivated people ever and they smoke weed all the time. I think it makes me more creative, more considerate. It makes you think about things in a different light. Carl Sagan was a famous cannabis user and he has a very famous quote about cannabis, about there's states of mind that are achievable on cannabis that he doesn't think are achievable any other way.

1:44:01He was an inveterate cannabis user. So was Terrence McKenna? And what's your view of age limits then? I think it should be just like alcohol 21. Yeah. And I think it would be smart for parents to explain to kids that there are some drugs that are really fucking dangerous. And don't just say all drugs are bad. Just let them know. And if you have a history of mental illness in your family, which many people do, mental illness seems to be something that's inherited. That some people have a tendency towards certain mental states. There's a lot of arguments about that. I'm not the one to say yes or no, but maybe you should not do these things.

1:44:36If your family has a tendency towards schizophrenia, if you've had your own mental struggles, if you've had moments where I know people that I've had schizophrenia breaks or they've come back. I have a couple of friends that like had real problems and now they're normal again. And not with medication, they just sorted it out and they figured it out. Oh for sure. And they came back. So I mean we're dealing with the, I mean, I think it's always the most important to remember that you're when you're with the people that have the worst problems are definitely a small minority. But the question is how many people are we willing to sacrifice?

1:45:04How many people do we sacrifice every year because it's alcohol? How many people do we sacrifice every year because of sugar? Do you know that heart disease is one of the biggest killers of human beings in this country? And how much heart disease is preventable because of lifestyle and diet? A large percentage. So should we say why is cake legal? Because you can handle cake, Michael? That doesn't make any sense. Michael, we've lost five million people this year because of cake. And you're saying that cake should be legal because you like cake? That's crazy. So you can get all fucked up on cake.

1:45:33These poor little diabetes. Actually, we're trying to move. You don't care about these diabetic kids. No, I mean, you can make the argument for anything. I would just say you can make the argument for my point is that freedom is the most important thing. Yeah, but okay, but what about fentanyl then? So you're going to want to sell fentanyl is essentially poison. Fentanyl, the LD50 of fentanyl is so small you can barely see it. You know that, right? You're seeing what the lethal dose of fentanyl looks like in comparison to a penny. Yeah, I mean, I've interviewed many, many people smoking fentanyl on the streets.

1:46:00Unbelievably terrifying. Yeah. So that is a poison. And that is something that was invented to try to make a more potent opiate. I don't think that it's a miracle for people in hospitals. I mean, it's a miracle drug as a pain med. I mean, for women giving birth, for back surgery, it's a miracle. Fentanyl is a miracle. No, but it is an opioid, right? Oh, yeah. No, I mean, I saw my mother was giving fentanyl for her back surgery. It was wonderful. Sure, but why wouldn't morphine work? Why wouldn't something like that? Well, okay, but so here's another reason. So this is, so I, uh, but something that we know that people can tolerate.

1:46:34Right. Well, in Nugan, Vancouver, they have this experiment where they said we're going to go give, um, hydro, hydromore phone, which is an opioid as a harm reduction to people that use fentanyl and heroin. And it's been a total nightmare because it gets diverted and people sell it in order to buy fentanyl, kids end up with it. I mean, I think you have to remember every time you add drugs to the drug supply, you add, you, you increase supplies. You just have the same thing. Uh, that's alcohol. Okay. Kids buy alcohol from a cousin who's willing to buy it for you because alcohol is legal. Kids can get alcohol.

1:47:12But it's the same thing, but it's also right. What you, what you, what you're talking about is crime. So you're talking about preventing crime, right? Because that's all it is illegal to do with what you say and preventing it. We also want to prevent addiction. Right. But it's illegal to do that with morphine. There's laws already that prevent you from doing that if you want to follow the law. Well, it's not, it's, it's people that are willing to break the law and do this. If there's a reasonable law that gets put forth in terms of age of use, age of discretion. And it probably, honestly, I mean, it's no one's going to buy it, but it's probably should be 25, right?

1:47:43Especially for males, right? That's in the frontal lobe fully forms. And, you know, like your decision -making is all fucked up. And if you're hitting the bon every day while your brain is forming and this frontal lobe is under development, of course, it's going to have an effect on it. It's going to have an effect on it. If you're on Prozac, it's going to have an effect on if you're drinking every day. Yeah. There's a lot of substances in this country that can do you wrong and food is one of them. And I don't think that we should be telling people what they can and can't do. I think we should be explaining what you should and shouldn't do.

1:48:16And I think that's the best way to handle this. With food, I would say the tobacco model is wonderful. I mean, we did an amazing job with reducing tobacco use in the United States just through, I mean, there was some reduction in availability, reduction in advertising and then moralizing against it. The culture changed. It's not cool anymore to smoke cigarettes, at least. Well, it was a revealing of the actual statistics and the fact that it does cost cancer and that it is addictive. All things that they tried to fight against, it was really money that kept it. There wasn't a giant problem like this, you know, back in like the 1800s.

1:48:49Well, and don't allow open air drug dealing, right? And chase, I mean, Holland, there's a small group of people that actually, the government actually, they give heroin to. It's like somewhere between 50 and 100 people. It's not very many. And then they're chasing dealers. They don't allow open air drug dealing. They're arrest. They're they're stopping cocaine from coming in. Yeah. I think that, yeah, look, it's a nuanced problem, which is why we're spending so much time talking about. It is a nuanced problem, but I think I think we have to be very careful about limiting people's freedom. And I think there's a bunch of choices that people make that are very bad that you should be able to make.

1:49:21I don't think you should make them. I don't think you should, you know, bet your fucking house on a roulette roll, but you can do that. It's, you know, it's funny. The other thing that we're going to come to in the book is we're looking at assisted suicides. Yeah. Oh my god. Canada is fucking insane. Well, right. So in other words, should you be free to commit suicide? I think you should. That's different from having a government program to assist it because you would say, well, the, it always starts to think we're not going to promote it. But in fact, the people that are involved in assisting suicide are basically selling it.

1:49:53There's this amazing BBC clip of this woman, this doctor that's been assisting people with their suicide. And she's, it's impossible to listen to her and not feel like she's promoting it. So it benefits from it, which is nuts. Yeah, it's nuts to have people benefit financially from people deciding to kill themselves. Right. They're telling people that have long COVID. Yeah. Oh, you have PTSD. Oh, come on in. I mean, what are the, that's the numbers, the people that they helped kill themselves last year are fucking terrified. I think it's like 13 ,000 people. Yeah, we looked at the, I, I don't know the exact number of we looked at that recently.

1:50:29And it's been increasing significantly. Yeah. And it's also, yeah, that one of the changes as you mentioned was it's now from people that have life -ending illness. Yeah, life -ending illnesses to people with psychiatric disorders. Right. Or people with just depression, simple depression. Or there was a, why I just wrote a case of a woman I didn't check to see if it's true. But I'm assuming a young woman who was sexually assaulted and depressed. And I think it was in the Netherlands. And this is suicide there as well. Yeah. I mean, it's a funny, it's a funny country, Netherlands, because on the one hand, they also did the gender, they did the gender medicine there.

1:51:04They did the, they did the drug decolonization. But they're also very strict. So they've, they've achieved a balance in the Netherlands. I don't think we're going to be able to do here. But they have a giant problem with like Moroccan crime gangs and drug sales and gun sales. And there's a lot of, I mean, compared to who? Compared to San Francisco and Oakland or I don't know. I'm not the guy. But my friend who was from Holland told me to, you know, Holland has a, a giant history of kickboxing. Some of the greatest kickboxes of all time came from Holland, like the legends, the legends of country.

1:51:38Amazing country. And they're tall, right? Yeah. Well, some of them are the, the best one ever was small, like I named Ramon Decker's. But he was so ferocious. He went over to Thailand and fucked everybody up. And he became a legend. Like it's a crazy country in that regard that it's a, it's not a very big country. But the people are very big and robust. And they're like, you know, manly men. And they're very blunt. And they're very direct. They cut to the point. Yeah. They're, there's some of my favorite people in the world. Because I think they do, they are able to get that balance between freedom and care.

1:52:10And between, I mean, but they're also raising their kids different. They're not coddling in the way that we coddle our kids. Right. The social media epidemic that we're, I mean, we just every, we don't do everything in the media epidemic over there. It's, they do, but it's just not as bad. Just like you would expect. Yeah. Yeah, I don't, I don't know what the solution to all of these things that are very complex. And I see your perspective. I really do. But I think, unfortunately, you could, you could apply that perspective to almost everything that people do that's dangerous and tell people they can't make these choices anymore because we're going to lose people.

1:52:43And I think we really want to be honest about that one. The biggest one is food. And no one wants to tell people you can't eat cookies. But the reality is that we'll fucking kill you. And you know, what should we do about that? What should we do? Should we educate people and tell people about the benefits of healthy diets and exercise? Yes. Yes. Yes. I think we should do that with all the above. I think we should do that with all the above. Yeah. I think we should do that with marijuana. I think we should do that with psilocybin. I think we should also take into account the people like these veterans like Sean Ryan that was telling you that have had these experiences from psychedelics that have changed their life in a huge way.

1:53:21And for these people that sort of dismissed that and poo poo that and say, oh, Carl Hart just wants to get fucked up. I don't think that's really fair. And I think you have to apply the same ideas of freedom where we have it with speech to especially behavior like drug use where it's not affecting anyone but yourself. And we already have laws that you're not allowed to drive intoxicated. And if someone does something and commits a crime while they're intoxicated, that's also illegal. We have laws that prevent bad behavior. And that bad behavior, those laws that it's already criminalized. So I think the real problem is not these things.

1:53:59The real problem is like all things that people get to try out. There's a lot of people that are going to fuck up with everything. And I would feel better. I mean, I don't think Carl I read his book and I interviewed him. I don't think he's honest about the trade -offs. I think he sells it as though it's just an injustice. That we don't have legalized drugs. And then dismisses this very well -established reality that greater drug availability results in more addiction. Yeah, I don't think you can. I don't think you could shock off the trade -offs just like you can't shock off the alcohol deaths.

1:54:32I think there's something like 90 ,000 people over your diaphragm alcohol. Yeah, but not in the only difference is well, yeah, but the difference is like when you die on fentanyl, you smoke it and you're dead. Right. They're counting as those alcohol deaths. It's a longer. Yeah. People that are dying. Yeah, you could have a couple of drinks and you're definitely not going to die most likely. Yeah, but I think what Carl Hart is kind of saying from his own perspective is that he had a very different opinion of what they did and the dangers of them before he started researching them. And then once he became a clinical researcher, then he realized like, oh, this is not.

1:55:05And then he started experimenting with them. I mean, literally, he's like, I mean, he's literally a world expert in drugs. Right. And so, I mean, he's just, and again, it's like after the summer of love, the kids that are like, I mean, he's a PhD. He's at Columbia. He's one of the best universities in the world. He's obviously somebody that has a huge amount of self -discipline and able to delay gratification. And I mean, in his book, he talks about actually becoming addicted to opioids and having to kick and going through withdrawals. I mean, that's a very disciplined person. He has something to live for.

1:55:37They're one of the most amazing groups. There's two famous studies. They've been on veterans who were addicted to heroin. They come back to the United States. They weren't around heroin anymore. They went on with their lives. They kicked their heroin and they were fine. The other group is doctors. Doctors who become addicted, you know, because of course, they're available. Big problem. Yeah, but their their recidivism rate or their their relapse rate is extremely low. Why? Because they're fucking smart. Well, they're just smart. And they're just one and if they don't quit, they're going to lose their medical license.

1:56:08Right. And they're going to stop making, right? You know, mid six figures every year. But they're also a good example. They have something to lose. Yeah. You're a doctor. That's a very difficult process to become a doctor like almost every doctor you meet is an exceptional person in some way. Yeah. In San Francisco, I tell the story about these two addicts telling the story about how they recovered. One of them was white. One of them was black. The black guy, Jabari, is arrested multiple times from, you know, when he starts his criminal career and as a teenager all the way into his 40s. And they keep letting them off because they're because they're because they're racist actually.

1:56:43And they're saying, Oh, you know, you're a victim and whatever. Basically is getting into a place of in just very serious addiction. Finally, gets arrested in a way so that he can get into recovery. The white guy gets arrested once. And because they're not lenient on him, he ends up getting into recovery right away. So I think that I think back to I think if we can find some common ground, it would be that you would enforce some basic laws so that if you're out there on the streets dealing drugs or you're sleeping in a tent on the sidewalk after you've been told multiple times or the EMTS to come out and revive you 12 20 times for your criminal.

1:57:22I mean, how many times do just that even if you don't care about the guy? How many times do taxpayers want to pay to to send the fire trucks out? I mean, it's like a often a fire truck and an ambulance go out to revive a dude who who often has already been revived. I mean, the one one time I saw was with the times of London reporter guy overdoses in front of us. They get him Narcan. The fire trucks still us to come. The ambulance still us to come. I mean, how many thousands of dollars of staff time and you know, Meta time is that to revive that guy instead, you know, arrest him, you know, or get him in the system.

1:57:56And then if you do it again, then you got to choose between rehab and jail. I think that's how you end up dealing with it. So Carl Hart, yeah, I mean, I don't want to send the police into arresting Carl Hart, but if you were saying that he downplays the negatives, yeah, dismisses the negatives. I mean, if you go the route that he's recommending, which is that all of these drugs be legally available, you're going to increase use, you're going to increase availability, you're going to increase addiction. Yeah, we've had this conversation a bunch of times about what do you just pull the bandaid off and allow that to take place.

1:58:28And so if you don't, you keep empowering the cartel. So your, your vision is to keep pumping money billions and billions of dollars every year into the cartel. There's no other way. You're not going to stop. There's no magic wand that you have that's going to stop addiction. There's no magic wand. You're going to have to stop the market for illegal drugs in the United States. I think we can reduce it. I think we can reduce it. You tell me how well. First of all, shut down the open air drug markets. Don't have this thing of repeated. If you overdose and the system has to come out to reverse the overdose, next time they come out, it should be a choice of jail or rehab.

1:59:07Like, that's it. You got to go to rehab or you go to jail. That was the system we had. California is about to reform the law that changed that. We had Prop 47, which made shoplifting up to $950 legal decriminalizers, same thing with three grams of hard drugs. California is going to vote in November to reverse that. Proposition 36. You think they're going to vote for that? Yeah, for sure. Way ahead. Yeah, it's over well over $15. That would be nice if they make stealing illegal again. Exactly. Re -criminalized crime. How many times? Then you're going to have to rehire cops and you're going to have to refund the police.

1:59:45Well, yeah. I mean, you definitely need more police. Honestly, we had drug courts. It was imperfect. You'd go to the courts and you'd be like, look, you need to get into rehab and you're just trying to have some amount of relapse, but this thing of 12, 20 times. Well, it's also incentivizing people like in Seattle, incentivizing people, paying people. It happens in San Francisco too, apparently. Just paying people to stay on the streets, giving them money, giving them food. All I have to do is sleep in that tent. Okay, fine. People are just shitting on the streets. No one's cleaning it up. And when Xi Jinping came to town, everything was hose down.

2:00:18Everybody was moved out. Of course. They put fences up where people couldn't camp there anymore. It was so bad. And Gavin Newsom's response that when your friends come over, you clean your house up. Like, well, just clean your house. You fucking psycho. You'll hoarder. San Francisco is like a hoarder's house, but way worse. It's like the idea behind it of it being compassionate is like there should have been a course correction when you realize the results of that. There's nothing compassionate about letting people shoot up in the streets and have your whole block fill with needles and human poop.

2:00:53And the whole thing's nonsense. This is not good for anybody. It's bad for the health of the people that are doing it and certainly the health of the people that are encountering it. He's opposed to this ballot initiative. Of course he is. I mean, it's insane. He's like the worst. He's the worst. He's both a terrible, terrible politician. And he's a terrible bureaucrat. His latest thing on homelessness is he's like, well, this time I'm going to give out the mighty of the counties and they're going to give me a plan. It's like you've been doing that for, you know, your entire time as governor and lieutenant governor.

2:01:25I'm sure you've seen the list of the people that work on the homeless in California and the salaries they get. Oh, yeah. Of course. That's that's what we mean by pathocracy. Yeah. It's a sick bureaucracy that creates sickness. Yeah. I'm not saying it's deliberate. It's unconscious, but it's it's Munchausen Syndrome by proxy. It's creating, making your child or making your community sick so that you can treat them. And there's very few countries that have figured a way out of that once I've already takes place. It's very hard. Once you lose the norms, you know, once you, I just, this is an amazing book called Weird about Western industrialized educated societies.

2:02:03And they just talk about these these core values of, you know, working hard, delaying gratification, you know, stable relationships, education, those religion and religion. I think that's the one that people don't want to say, especially people that fancy themselves intelligent. I think a big part of our problem is we have lost all sense of religious virtue and values as a culture. And we've rejected them under the guise of you being too intelligent for religion. Yeah. And the results of that is like, if you, just look at the results in terms of the way people feel about life. If you really do believe in God, you will feel about life like that is a gift and is a miracle and you will live a more righteous and just life.

2:02:48It will benefit you. It actually will. And I don't know if it's true, but I know that if you believe is true and Jordan talks about this, but he, whether he won't say what he believes in God, but if you act as if God is real, you'll have a much better life. And that's a fact. And people know that they know when you meet like a really good Christian person who does charitable things and it's wonderful, lovely person who actually lives by the Bible, not a hypocrite. You're like, wow, what a cool guy. Like I really love that guy. He's awesome. Like because it's a great value, it's a great, it's a great virtuous way to live your life.

2:03:25And we've absence in the void of this, this thing that I think we all need. You fill it with this new religion, whether it's wokeism or whatever it is, fill in the blank of the climate, whatever it is, you find a thing. I think that happened during COVID. I think it became a religion for a lot of people. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's funny. My, so on both free speech and homelessness, my best allies are Christians. They literally just have shown up. There's all these people that are secular that are like, yeah, we're with you, but they don't actually do the work like the Salvation Army. When I did a fentanyl protest in Los Angeles, the Salvation Army shows up and they're effective on the free speech issues in Europe.

2:04:01There's a group called Alliance Defending Freedom. They show up. They're so reliable. My best supporter of our nonprofit for years, just a Christian is just gives us support. He's like, trust you, go do it. I mean, when I look at my grandfather, who was a farmer in Indiana, lived to 101. After he died, I interviewed his neighbors and I was like, what? And they were like, oh, yeah, the neighbor over there is 98 and that neighbor is 97. And I was like, why does everybody live so long around here? And they just go, right, live in. And I was like, well, what's right, live in? And they were like, didn't smoke, didn't drink, you know, eight right.

2:04:37I mean, they ate great food, obviously, they're on the farm. But also, he had no choices to make. I mean, there was, there's this really interesting book by Leah Greenfield that argues that the increase of mental illness in Western countries of the last 100 years is just this incredible pressure on the individual to make all these choices. You know, like, my grandfather was like, there weren't that many young women to choose from, to marry. He didn't choose his religion. I mean, it's like absurd. We choose, we tell our kids, it's like, can you imagine? You can believe whatever you want to become Jewish.

2:05:11You can become Jewish. You want to be a cat? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Then you go, I want to change my gender. I mean, the levels of choices that people have, it's, it's overwhelming as opposed to like, he basically didn't choose any of the major things in his life. He didn't choose any of them. He didn't choose his occupation. He barely chose his, I mean, he didn't know that many women to choose from. Certainly didn't choose his religion, but we are arguing that that's a good thing. Well, no, I mean, because of course, you and I would hate that. We would, we're, we're libertarian. Like, we want, we love our choices.

2:05:39I mean, because you were saying, it's not just that there's two things that are going on. First, people just, the church didn't explain the world very well. Right. Suddenly, you have these scientists that are like, well, actually, the earth revolves around the sun, guys. And, and you know, I mean, it looks like, and then there's a story about evolution, which may not be correct. But nonetheless, the scientists had a much better story of reality than the church did. And then the other thing is that just as you get wealthier, you just have more money. There's more choices. There's more things to do.

2:06:07And you're sort of like, why am I going to go along with what some priest tells me to do? Well, especially when you're the literal translations. Right. When people literally translate ancient religious texts, things get weird. You know, you're, you're dealing with a story told down by oral tradition for a thousand years. Somebody writes it on animal skins. They eventually, you know, it's too, it gets weird. Oh, yeah, it's weird. So, but to dismiss all the ideas behind it, I think it's foolish. I mean, the Europeans somehow, I mean, the Dutch, for example, they're very secular. I mean, these Europe, these Western European societies, they're far less belief in God than in the United States.

2:06:45And yet somehow, you know, they keep raising their kids to be more disciplined than we're raising our kids. They don't have as, they have, you know, cultural philosophy. There's, there's like an inner, I do think it's a stoicism in the sense that it's, it's, you know, it's like when I would, my, my parents, it's funny because Jonathan, you know, Jonathan Hyde at one point he was asked, I think by, I can't remember who, someone asked him like, who's better parents left wingers or right wingers and he was like, right wingers? Yeah. Even though he's a pretty liberal guy, I mean, my parents who are very, my mom and dad are very left, but they raised me more conservative.

2:07:18And the way they would do it is they'd be like, you know, be like, oh, well, that's not fair. And they'd be like, well, life's not fair. Right. That's like a conservative view. Life is not fair. Right. And then you'd be like, well, why don't you, will you give me some food? They would teach you, they would teach us how to like push a chair next to the kitchen counter to climb up and get your maker on food. They had a philosophy that was if the kid can do it, the kid should do it as opposed to now it's like, I think there's just these over involved parents that are like, oh, I want to, I want to take care of you.

2:07:46And so the kids end up getting coddled somehow for whatever reason in Europe, those core values of self -reliance. You know, it gets, when I interviewed like the progressive homeless service providers in the United States, they were in San Francisco and other places, they would say things like, oh, that's the whole by your bootstraps philosophy, which is just so oppressive. It's like, no, actually, it's completely liberating to be told that you have the power to do these things. I mean, that's basically what Anthony Robbins is telling people all the time, right, is that you have the inner resources, the inner power.

2:08:22Sure. So that's got to be, I don't know how we restore it. I mean, there's the fear, of course, is that once that stuff's gone, it's gone. Well, the fear is once you've told the person that's not their fault, their whole life is because somebody else did them wrong. Absolutely. There's some injustice in the system, some systematic oppressions keeping them from succeeding. But the reality also is that some people are born in terrible circumstances. Yeah. And then there's no beginning finish. There's no starting line. That's the same. But this thing where this thing were like, you know, after the George Floyd, where it's like the Obama's are an affluent, you know, black families are saying, oh, yeah, I'm worried about my kids.

2:09:04What are you telling your kids that they're like that they're going to be victims of the society that police are all racist? I mean, this message is are constantly being told to people that the system, that basically the broader society is essentially unfair as opposed to telling them that really the playing field is more level than has ever been. And the crazy thing is up until about 2012. That's what we thought. I blame Obama. People that don't, a lot of people do, but you know, because there's a sort of a political incentive to communicate that way. And, you know, to promote this idea that it's everybody's fault.

2:09:42And, you know, everybody goes, oh, and then you get white guilt and voila, it's not my fault. I'm an I'm an ally. And then they jump in and next, you know, people are looking for racism everywhere. I'm like racist Columbus. It's weird. It's weird how it shifted because when I was a kid, racism was bad period. No one cared. It just got to this weird point somewhere around 2012 where it was everywhere in society. And you got to encounter unconscious bias and unconscious racism training in the workplace. So then you get these grifters who their only jobs to tell you that everything is racist. And the only job is to berate you and scare you into you have to give in to whatever their demands are in terms of the numbers of employees that have to be x, y, z.

2:10:28And they develop these like very rigid rules that they're in control. No, they're controlling what you're allowed to say the way you're allowed to discuss things. If someone says anything about a person that is of a particular group that becomes either homophobic or transphobic or racist or you're not taking into account all these other factors that led that person to be, you know, it's not equitable. There's all this nonsense talk that's used by grifters. Oh, it's a cult. But it didn't exist. This is what people need to understand. That was all dismissed when I was a kid. By 2012, by around that time, that was not a thing.

2:11:09In 2001, that was not a thing. This thing calling racist, there was always racism. There's always people that were saying there was racism in the workplace. And I'm sure it's true because some people suck. But it wasn't this overall message that society is inherently racist. I mean, think about how Obama was raised by his white mom, you know, by a single mom, you know, and his grandparents were there. She didn't teach him that he was a victim, that he was helpless against society. He literally became the president of the United States, the most difficult job to get on earth. I mean, she, so I mean, what I success American success story, you can imagine.

2:11:45I mean, here, here he's like reelected in 2012. Like this stuff is starting, you know, Black Lives Matter starts. And I think it's like, was it 2015 or is it 2013? I can't remember. But he sees all that stuff happening. There's literally nobody on the planet more capable of pushing back against all that bad wokeism than Barack Obama. Barack Hussein Obama is so well positioned to do it. He doesn't do it. You know, I mean, and I think part of it is that it works for Democrats. Yes, it works. That's the, that is the problem. It works politically for them. Yeah. And that, but that's, but that's actually a tragedy, especially for young Black men in this country to be teaching this idea there.

2:12:26He does once in a while, he'll say something about it. But I mean, the whole Black Lives Matter movement, which was, you know, just a tragedy, you know, where you're, you're the grotesque exaggeration of police killings of unarmed Black men. He was in a position to push back against that. And they didn't do it. And he hasn't done it since he left office. So that's why I say I blame him just because of what he hasn't done because there have been grotesque uses of police brutality on Black people. And we all know it. Sure. The problem is if you say that it's not as big of a problem, we have very specific instances where it was a problem.

2:13:03So it's like, I don't think the problem decline. I mean, we looked at FBI data from the seven. The promise bad cops. It declined, but it declined. I declined so much from the 70s until now. Right. Sure. But it doesn't mean that it's not still a giant issue. If you're a Black man, and you encounter cops and you've terrified, I mean, it's under, it's, it's about one or two dozen a year. That's still a lot of people that had died that didn't have to die if the police weren't incompetent or if they weren't racist. Yeah. They weren't fucked up on PTSD because a lot of them are. But if you, yeah. But if you calculate the number of, the, the increase of the number of Black people killed because the police pulled back in reaction to Black Lives Matter, what we call the Ferguson effect.

2:13:45Right. Where you're out there demonizing and yeah, that's not the correct response. No. And so the cops pull back. And so you get more Black deaths. I mean, you get cops that are terrified to police. Yeah. Yeah. You get cops that are demonized. You get a terrible morale. You get a lot of get really bad things. And then you get a wake up call a few years later where people are like, we need to refund the police. And that's what happened in Minnesota. And it's happening in a lot of places where people are up in arms like our communities are more fucked up now than they've ever been before. This didn't help anybody.

2:14:14And you didn't even fill the void. It's not like you, you defunded the police, but figured out some new strategy that's more effective and implemented that. No. He just created this bizarre environment where you allow people to steal. If you, you make a law that makes allow people to steal up to $950 with a shit, they're just going to steal $950 with a shit every chance they get. And then you're going to see all these businesses closing down like in San Francisco. You know, um, Chamoth was in the podcast recently and he thinks that San Francisco is going to experience a rebirth because of AI. And his perspective is that the, the super nerds are like more in charge of San Francisco now.

2:14:51And so these sort of mid -level grifters who are into virtue signaling, which is like how you got ahead in a lot of these businesses where you're not really exceptional as a person, but you fit a good quota and you're kind of a DEI hire next thing, you know, the CEO of a big company. And it's nuts and it happens. And he said that's not going to happen anymore because like AI is going to essentially revitalize that area because it's going to be so much money and the people that are going to be running it are going to be the actual geniuses again. Well, and he and, I mean, but also he and David Sacks, I mean, they've had such a powerful impact just in talking back to that culture.

2:15:25Yes. I mean, their podcast is so dominant now in business that I think it's just made, it's just given courage. So as Mark and Jason, yes, they've given courage to people to just not put up with it. So much brilliant, brilliant people who are following, expressing themselves. And I think that's so huge and Mark and Jamoth and all these folks that are doing that now, it's courageous because if you step out of line with the ideology, with the ideology supports, you get attacked. Oh, yeah, it's not fun. Well, there was, I think there was an earlier generation of tech leaders who went along with the political correctness.

2:15:59And so now you get Andreessen and Sacks and Jamoth and the biggest one. Yeah. I mean, he's the biggest place here now. Yeah. Well, the biggest pushback ever is he spends $44 billion to purchase Twitter and then we find out all the stuff that's going on. And it's incredible. The fact that it's still the Brazil thing is unresolved. And so the only way it's going to be resolved is if they get rid of those 12 people. Oh, well, yeah. Wow. We're circling back. Yeah, let's circle. Well, I mean, yeah, I mean, well, so one one one important observation about this. So first of all, Elon was very strong on Brazil.

2:16:32I think that there's a way in which he's going to probably have to cut a deal to get X back in Brazil. We don't talk at all about Zuckerberg and Google, you know, we all those pressures on Elon. Look, you know, they, they, they, giving in to the requirements. Yeah, they gave in right away. I mean, that's the, that's what's they ban those people off of Facebook. All those people that you were talking about. I mean, I can't, I can't prove it, but I assume that that's the case. Yeah, they went along with it. I mean, only Elon stood up against it. So, I mean, Facebook is just engaged in a huge amount more censorship.

2:17:05You know, the fact checkers, they outsource their brain to these fact checkers who are then funded by all these bad actors. I think the thing about the Brazil that shows is, you know, they froze star links bank accounts. And they they seized its assets. So, you know, because people point out, you know, Elon's incredibly powerful richest man in the world. I mean, Starlink is this incredible innovation. I've seen you talk about it. But at the end of the day, it actually makes him somewhat vulnerable because then they can just, you know, it's not just about X. Like if you, if the Brazilian government can come in and seize Starlink assets in a country where Starlink is absolutely essential because the Amazon, you know, it allows for this incredible connectivity.

2:17:43So it really, I, for me, it's just, you still need a free speech movement. Like you need, yeah, to re, to re inculcate. And I think the other thing that I've realized, in the last year and a half of doing the Twitter files and other other censorship files, is that because I used to think that my support for free speech, that our support for free speech was sort of like natural or something. But I realized, like it was taught to me. Like I remember my father teaching me about Skogi and telling me that the ACLU had defended the right of Nazis, to march through a neighborhood of Holocaust survivors.

2:18:14And I remember being horrified by it as a very, you know, woke kid and being like, that's very insensitive. And my dad kind of being like, well, yeah, but here's why we do it that way. And it was because actually censorship would then be used against other people. And he would also make this point. And I had, I was making this yesterday to, to my future students at University of Austin, is that you want to know who the Nazis are. Yeah, you actually want to know who the Nazis are. And you want to argue with the Nazis. You, you, this idea that were, there's a fantasy people say, oh, well, if we had, if Germany had like censored the Nazis, then they wouldn't have come to power.

2:18:50They did censor the Nazis. Like, they had imposed a censorship regime before the Nazis came to power. They were, they were, they were censoring them. They came to power, reinforced that system. So much better to defeat these bad ideas in the realm of free speech. But I do think there's a whole younger generation that never got indoctrinated into the religion of free speech in the ways that we as an experts did. Well, I think they're learning it more now because it's being discussed now because it's under threat. And I think people need to understand the ramifications of giving the government control.

2:19:22They, they, they're not truthful. There's no instances where you could look back and say, well, the government never lies about this. There's not one thing, whether it's health care, whether it's international relations, whether it's their political opponents, whatever it is, things get distorted. There's lies that get told. That's just how it goes. It's an incredible, it's an incredible sort of master tool for so many different things. I mean, it's, you know, I mean, half of it is just calling its censorship. These guys are so good with language. They talk about how I'm just doing counter -disinformation.

2:19:56Right. Like, who could possibly defend disinformation? Right. This information. I'm doing counter -disinformation. Just the problem is who gets to the side? And are there ramifications? Let's say if you're one of those people that said the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation and you signed off on that, what, what are the ramifications? What's the result of that? Is it, do people still call on you for suggestions and questions? Like, people that were involved in Russia gate with Trump that promoted that idea? How come they still get to talk on CNN? Unbelievable. The whole thing is very bizarre.

2:20:25It's like, if you really are against misinformation, you have to stop it everywhere you see it, including from yourself. So if your own organization is a provider of misinformation and you're acutely aware of it, and you hide it, and you dismiss it, and you gaslight everybody. And then you say, we have to stop misinformation online. Well, what about yourself? How about start with you? Let's have to clean up your own fucking yard before you come to us. Well, look, I mean, it's like, I'm a journalist, I'm investigating what is the truth about a lot of different topics. Right. I'm fighting misinformation, but I'm doing it through free speech.

2:20:58You're, but you're actually doing it. You're not, what they're doing is pretending. Well, right. Pretending. It's not really misinformation. It's inconvenient information. My favorite one was malinformation. Right. Well, you should explain what that is. Malinformation is information that is true, but could be harmful. That's amazing. Which is so nuts. And that was, they could apply that to vaccine hesitancy. Right. So you could tell truthful stories about vaccine injuries. They would attribute that they would put that the category of this is going to contribute to vaccine hesitancy. So they would put it, okay, we put the label of malinformation on that one.

2:21:36We can silence that. Well, this was, and that was in the Facebook files, where the Facebook's tops researcher says to the White House, they go, hey, our research shows that if you censor true stories of vaccine side effects, shocking as it sounds, people will become more suspicious of the vaccine. Yeah. So it's actually, yeah, it's, it's, they do contradict themselves in that sense. I think the other, you know, the hunter buying a laptop story, we talk about it a ton, but what was so important about it is that the disinformation campaign comes before the censorship. They go out and they say, and this, this is a, it'll be a segue to our conversation at UFOs.

2:22:15They get, you know, FBI gets the laptop in December 2019. They know it's, hunter buying a laptop. They know it's not Russian disinformation. Aspen Institute, which is funded by the US government and very close to intelligence community, then goes and brainwashes journalists and the social media companies into, into preparing that there could be a hack and leak coming around Hunter Biden's laptop. And of course, Mark Zuckerberg made history here with you when he told you that the FBI had come to him in the summer of 2020, warning of a hack and leak operation. So they do that. And then they come out.

2:22:49And then when the, when the laptop comes out, they demand that it be censored. But the, the key thing there is that there was an organized disinformation effort around that laptop by people that were fed that by the FBI. This is why I'm so confident now in saying that both the FBI and the CIA interfered in the 2020 election because they ran this disinformation campaign, whereby censorship was one part of it, but it was actually the part that came after the disinformation. And it probably would have had a significant effect on the outcome of the election. I mean, I personally, I voted for Biden, by the way.

2:23:21And when I saw that story, I was like, I was like, there's clearly something wrong with it. It looks like it's a hack and leak. It looks like it. I mean, I genuinely believe that. Now, would I have voted for Trump? Otherwise, I don't know. But we already had found out that the steel dossier was bullshit. So it makes sense that that would be bullshit, too. There was a precedent. Well, also was the they were also the hack and leak was remember also about the Hillary emails, the Hillary emails, the jump had us to emails, the DC emails. So it made the it fit a it fit a particular framework. But what's important is that the FBI knew that it was legitimate the entire right.

2:23:56So that's misinformation. If you say that it's not true, that's misinformation. Yeah, you got to stop that stop that disinformation because they knew was not true, right? The other one, and then the CIA remember Gina Haspel was director of the CIA for Trump. She was part of it because she approved the letter from the 51 former CIA directors and leaders that said that it had all the earmarks of a Russian information operation. She approved that letter within hours. All she had to do, I mean, look, I mean, assuming she didn't know, all she had to do was to call the FBI, right? You know, she all she had to do was, I mean, look, they had a very clear, they had a clear agenda.

2:24:39I mean, it's such an on, Joe, it's such an unprecedented thing. When you talk to Martin Gurrey who's a former CIA guy, you talk to, you know, people that, you know, that really love the CIA that really believe in it, they were like, that is insanely unprecedented for these because, you know, the classic statement is nobody ever leaves the intelligence community. So to have former intelligence people doing that is just absolutely, I mean, that's just unacceptable. It's wild. It's really wild. And we've never had that happen before, which is why it's so scary that nothing happened because of it.

2:25:11There's no repercussions. I mean, people should go to prison for that. Talk to me about aliens. What's going on? You know anything? Okay, let me segue. I got to segue on that because here's the craziest thing. That Aspen Institute, Hunter Biden, disinformation operation was run by two people, Vivian Schiller and Garrett Graf. Vivian Schiller is this just wild. You know, she was New York Times and PR, Twitter, executive, high level executive. Now runs Aspen's digital initiative. Garrett Graf is this, you know, acclaimed nonfiction book writer. They did the Hunter Biden disinformation campaign where they program and brainwash these journalists and the social media platforms in advance of the release of the Hunter Biden story.

2:25:59Well, guess who wrote the big book, dismissing UFOs earlier this year? Guess who, guess who can know that book? Garrett Graf. Oh. So what is going on with Aspen? And Aspen Institute is like one of their, I think it's their biggest or one of their biggest supporters is the US government. So oh, so this is very, very suspicious. You should invite them on your show and ask them some questions. Why did he decided to do a book about UFOs? What was, you know, so here you have people that I could feel very confident saying were a part of an FBI run disinformation and censorship initiative on Hunter Biden's laptop.

2:26:39Then turning around, they then did an interview. He, she then interviews them at like Aspen Institute, you know, classic YouTube. So I saw it on YouTube. She's interviewing them. There's this moment. It's so crazy. She goes, they says, there's something like they both kind of go, well, you know, the reason we, this is just the UFOs are obviously a conspiracy theory is because, you know, the government can't, you know, the government is incompetent and can't get away with this kind of thing. Well, that is, that is madness because, of course, the US government is actually very good at keeping secrets, you know, from the making of the atomic bomb until today, there are a lot of secrets that the US government is actually quite capable of holding.

2:27:21And nobody knows that better than Vivian Schiller and Greg Graf of the Aspen Institute, who ran the Hunter Biden operation. So what they're doing is they're deliberately, that's, it's a side. I mean, I use a sideop or what I'm going to call it because a lot of people are experienced of ordinary, normy experiences of government is going to the DMV, right? So you go out the DMV, yeah, that's the government. The people that are working at the CIA and the FBI, those high levels are best intel, they're like some of the smartest people in the world. I mean, these are people that they're recruiting them out of the Ivy leagues.

2:27:54The idea that they're, that these agencies are incompetent. And I'm not saying that they're always competent, but these are some of the premier spies that have ever existed. And the idea that somehow the US government, you know, can't carry out these operations to keep secret, that's obviously wrong. And then we have these, I have all these whistleblowers coming forward. So that's, that's the prelude to this story. What is your thought on it? So what do you think there, so if it's a sideop, and what, I'm not aware of what the book is and what their premises, but essentially the premises that the UFOs are bullshit.

2:28:26It's a very sophisticated book. So, I mean, it's worth, you know, I encourage you to read it in part to understand like, how is the US, what's the most sophisticated take by the US government? The less sophisticated treatment was by Sean Kirkpatrick, who was the recently departed head of the Defense Departments all. Hallsapp? No, arrow. Okay. That's the all -domain anomaly resolution office that was created by the Senate that came out with this very dismissive report about UFOs. And then he left the head of arrow left and has now just been ridiculing and attacking all the UFO whistleblowers, including, you know, David Grush and the Wilson and all these folks.

2:29:10But the book is, so basically, this is a book of the history of UFOs. And it's just, it basically just goes through every single major case and shows you why it's just not, it's not a UFO. I mean, it basically is showing or why it's a natural phenomenon. So it's essentially doing what Project Blue Book did? It's, it's, it's absolutely an extension of, it's really, and then remember in 1953, the CIA creates something called the Robertson Panel. And the Robertson Panel comes out and says the US government should just focus on debunking UFO cases and, and including ridiculing people, which is a very cruel treatment of people because it's such a devastating, socially so devastating to be ridiculed.

2:29:49Sure. And then you get the Condon report, the Condon Committee, which is the University of Colorado, 1966, 1968. Same thing, dismisses this, suggests all kooks. The Gehrig Graphs UFO book is more sophisticated. It's actually a little bit more gentle in the sense that it's, it's dismissing all these things. It's also, it's also talking about like these maybe natural phenomena, it might be plasmas or ball lightning. You know, and then they kind of go through the psychological but the whole book is aimed at just absolutely dismissing the phenomenon. I mean, that's the whole purpose of it. I think some of the phenomena should be dismissed.

2:30:29I think that's one thing that we really need to accept when we try to develop an objective sense of what's really going on that ball lightning is real. For sure. Plasmas real, there's a lot, a lot of real natural phenomenon, but ball lightning is bizarre. And if you ever see ball lightning and you imagine you're a person lone in the forest and you saw ball lightning, you would 100 % shape your pants. You'd be like, oh my god, there's a fucking alien here and they're going to get me and take me like Travis Walton. I also think there's something going on with the government. I believe that they have, and this is a pure guess based on no evidence at all.

2:31:07I think they probably have some super sophisticated propulsion program that's based on something that is an entirely new set of physics. It's probably based on some sort of gravity propulsion. There's long been speculation that eventually there'll be an ability to create something that does not rely on conventional propulsion. There's long been some sort of an understanding of manipulation of gravity. In fact, there was a article like some science journal from like 1957 that was talking about the new wave of gravity devices. They're going to start coming. It's going to be gravity planes and we're not going to use propulsion anymore.

2:31:50People have always wondered if we're eventually going to crack that. And if they did crack that, I think their problem is, I think a lot of these things are drones and I think the problem is a biological life can't survive those speeds. I think those things are moving at these insane rates of speed because there's nothing alive that's piloting them. And so that's why humans and that's why no humans can survive that kind of G -Force. So there's no one in those things. There's probably alien species that also visit us. I don't think that's outside the realm of possibility either. I think all those things are happening.

2:32:29I think that one has been documented clearly throughout human history. There's been these experiences and you've got to chalk some of them up to bullshit, lies, hysteria. There's a lot of, but there's too many that are too similar. And I'm in the middle of a Jacques Fallet's book. Have you read any of this stuff? I've read almost all of it. I'm in the middle of it's called Dimensions. That's what it is. It's that there's a there's a three trinity of books. Yeah. Apparently I didn't know that when I picked this one up. But Dimensions is one of the things that he does in the book is he has eyewitness accounts of UFO events throughout history.

2:33:10Like going back into the 1700s and they're like uniform. Fascinating. And he also makes this argument that there's a cultural context as to what people see and that a lot of these people that live in Ireland, they see leprechauns and elves and berries. And that it's quite possible that this is not from another planet. That this is some sort of extra -dimensional experience that these things come from somewhere that's here but not here. And that this is why they've existed forever. And this is why there's no evidence of them. And they just they they come and go as they please. And they're probably a completely different type of thing than what we are.

2:33:51This bizarre carbon -based life form that we are. There they're probably some parallel evolution that took place somewhere else that's probably gone on a million years past where we are. Or that's just guessing. You know who knows what it is. But there's something else to it. There's some sort of a spiritual element to it. It's it's not as simple as a metal ship comes from another place and lands here. But I also think the metal ship coming from another place might be real too. If you just take into account the sheer vastness of the universe and the unbelievable possibilities of the variety of life, you would think there's got to be intelligent life.

2:34:30And if if we do have some sort of super sophisticated drone technology that doesn't rely on conventional propulsion systems, which there's evidence of. Okay, if you look at the Go Fast video, if you look at the Flair video, and David Fraver's experiences with the TikTok where they got video that thing, they got radar of that thing. So we know something can move that way that fast, something can. You would think that if if that's here and it is real and there's video footage of it. So we know that a real phenomena took place. So that means someone it whether it's here or there's someone out where else can figure that out.

2:35:07So now we know that can be done. So if that can be done today in 2024 and back then it was 2004, which encounter that. Who knows if it's, you know, hours or from another planet or whatever the fuck it is. It was a thing that existed that an intelligent creature had created. It just makes sense that the sky is littered with that. Probably littered. There's probably millions and millions and millions of planets that have intelligent life on them. And a bunch of them probably are capable of interstellar travel. And probably a bunch of them aren't even biological anymore. They're probably some sort of super sophisticated AI that ran a mock and took over.

2:35:47A lot of possibilities. A lot of possible. An infinite number of possibilities. But when the government wants to dismiss all of them as being explainable in nonsense. And it's the same people that dismissed the Hunter Biden laptop story. Yeah, you should get nervous. Yeah. Well, that's, I mean, I'm, I don't know what they are. And I'm, and I'm agnostic. It can be something. Well, let me. Yeah. Well, yes, I have actually. Would you say? I mean, I don't know what they were, but I've seen things I can't explain. What did you say? So I saw, so there's twice I've seen things. I saw one time I saw three lights that were, I thought they were stars.

2:36:30And then they, and then the one on the, they were all just like, they looked almost like a Ryan's belt, like three stars. And then the, the one on the far left just broke away from the other two and then did. And it was weird. I'm, this is going to sound really weird. And so I don't know. It just, it really like literally, it felt like it was pulling my left eye. The left, like I was looking at them. And it felt like, you know how like, like it's almost like you're being cross -eyed. But it felt like it was literally pulling my left eye. And then it just did a set of squiggles like that. And then a cloud bank came over and covered it up.

2:37:06You know, I don't know what it was. I know drones didn't look like a drone. There's no noise. But did you see a shape of this thing? Or was it like they were just, they were just white lights. I couldn't, I couldn't tell how high up they were. And then the other one I saw was actually in a suburb of Houston, or was it Dallas? And I was running at night. And there were these two guys there, two black eyes, young guys that just got another car. And they were, they were, then I had seen these orange orbs. And then they were filming them with their cameras. And I went over them and I was like, what are those?

2:37:48And they're like, we all know. I mean, they looked a little bit like, I first thought they were Chinese lanterns, but there was no paper bag, you know, that the lanterns were no like, there's nothing there. So they looked like, and they also kind of looked like there's some translucent thing around them. And they just, looked, I couldn't also tell how big they were. Couldn't figure out where they were coming from. I went and ran around the neighborhood trying to figure out where they were coming from to see if maybe somebody was standing off. How fast were they moving? Shockingly slow. Like they were sort of floating.

2:38:16They were kind of, they felt like they were floating. So I'm not saying, I don't know what they were. I don't know what happened with them. I watched them until they stopped coming. First thing, I mean, I just watched them. They just kind of would appear out of nowhere. And then they would, they would like, it was in this residential neighborhood. And then they just drift off. And they would float over. I would watch them at one point float all over downtown. So it was probably like a mylar balloon or something. Didn't look like inside of it. I mean, it was just, they were, they were also blurry and orange.

2:38:47I mean, I looked up orange water cloud cover too. I actually photographed. I have a bunch of videos of them. Let me see. All right. Well, that's Jamie. Okay. We're going to analyze it. We'll tell you what it is. All right. But I also want to tell you the thing we just did. All right. Okay. Well, I need those videos. All right. Okay. So it's going to we're going to. We'll pause. We'll pause. We'll pause. All right. We'll pause. All right. And I also have the ones that the guys, so the guys there, we exchanged phone numbers and stuff. And they texted me since we're paused. I have an update on your story.

2:39:14That's been published already. Oh, what is it? People found out on Google. There was some mentions of that back. They think when Grush brought it up in 2023. And since that was made public on Twitter, it seems that Google has removed those searches. What? Yeah. This is for the. We're keeping this in. I was going to bring it up when we came up. This is a macular conception. There's the screenshot. Someone took a spike. Wow. I guess it doesn't say the exact date. I was trying to find it and tried to recreate it to. And then like an hour later, the spikes gone. That's crazy. I did. But did. But did Grush mention a match of a conception?

2:39:48I don't know. It says. Okay. The term immaculate conception is rarely searched on Google. Of course, searches for searches for its guyrocketed today. And this is because of UAPs. So what did Grush say? The manual conception is the name of the secret UAP Pentagon program that I revealed. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting. Show more. Of course, searches for its guyrocketed. But there was one other time. It was displayed in a large blip June, 2023, just as modern UAP crash retrieval story broke. David Grush went public. And hearings were planned. They removed that spike. So they pretend it doesn't exist anymore.

2:40:28I don't know. It says zero there. So it's hard to say. It could have been a Google trend blip that people are trying to make something. That is weird. But it is a weird, you know, it's weird, let's just say. It is weird that it just jumped up one day and then stopped. But also people have like a fucking very quick news cycle. How's it going over there? Meet a finding that I'm trying to find the ideas. How long ago was this? It was last year. And it must have been, so here's the other weird thing is that I, it was the same day that I published a story about UAPs. Oh. So you ever wonder if maybe they're fucking with you and they find out where you are and they send some drones over to this place.

2:41:13Get them to start talking. I mean, I felt better because there were there were two other guys there. You know, and I have their info. And so yeah, I don't it's just of course. Who knows what it is. But at least it's not behaving like something out of this world. Yeah. It's not like the Phoenix lights. We got something that's a mile long flying over Phoenix and then we can figure out what it is. Right. There's just there's enough of these that make me think there's something going on. I don't think it's all bullshit. I think some of it is ours. But I think a bunch of it's probably not ours. But so first of all, if they are ours and their anti -gravity, that's just insane.

2:41:53Insane. And the part of me that's skeptical of it is because I know a lot about nuclear energy and nuclear power and it took a huge amount of effort to build the bombs. Huge huge amount of effort, a huge number of people. So the idea that anti -gravity was then sort of like, oh yeah, we just did that in like a couple of years or something. That strikes me as really improbable. Yeah, very improbable in a couple of years. But if they're doing it over decades, they're doing it with retrieved crashes, which seems to be a part of the narrative. Yeah. You know, Diana Pasalco and Gary Nolan, you're where there were.

2:42:27Of course. They call them the crash sites donations. That's very interesting. It gets weird. It gets weird because there's a bunch of inventions they attribute to crashed retrievals where they back engineered stuff. You know, I would imagine that if I was a super sophisticated society from another planet and I saw these struggling apes, I would give them some hints. Yeah. How do I send these to you? You can air drop them to Jamie's Macbook. Okay. See them in there? No. I air drop. Okay. So there's no people. Oh, there you are. Jamie's Macbook. Bam.

2:43:14They don't, I mean, they don't look like much. You know, they're just like orange dots, but but it's weird. It's weird. And I want to stress because my critics always use this to try to describe me. I don't know what I don't know what it is. I just don't know what it is. And and anybody says they do know what it is. I get very suspicious. Yeah. If they say I have all the information like how could you? Yeah. How good you? How do you absolutely know what it is? This whole thing is real weird. It's real weird. When fighter pilots recognize things that are behaving in a way that they've never seen before, that's real fucking weird.

2:43:49Yeah. When you've got these guys like, you know, Grush is the best example, but there was another pilot. There's multiple witnesses that saw this thing physically. You know, whatever these things, Brian Graves, when they see these things, like, what are these? What are they? What's the explanation? It's it's got to be somebody's. If it's a real thing, if it's hours, holy shit, like what are they doing? And if it's not hours, holy shit, right? Is this another nation? And if it's not another nation, and holy shit, are we getting visited by interdimensional beings or something from another planet?

2:44:25Like, what's your take? Well, I mean, guess. Well, here's what, I mean, what I was, what I am, what I wrote today and what I feel confident to say, just keep those glasses on and make you look smarter. I'll take it all the help I can get. Doesn't it make you just smarter? I mean, what I, so what today, today's piece is about a new whistleblower who has come forward and has written a report. And this is somebody that is either in government or as a government contractor, I've interviewed this person multiple times in person. I've checked their credentials, they are who they say they are. They have written a report and provided it to members of Congress.

2:45:05And in that report, they claim that there is a, that the Pentagon is illegally withholding information from Congress about a secret UAP program. And that secret UAP program is considered a parent program of other, of other programs, but it's called Immaculate Constellation. I was told by a, I was, I had it confirmed by a second source that this is the name. I also was told that if we revealed the name that we would probably fall at, get under surveillance, by simply revealing the name, I went to the Pentagon with a story on Friday. Today is Tuesday. They told me on Friday, they couldn't get it to me, they couldn't get me a response, but then they Friday they asked if I could wait until Monday.

2:45:52I said, sure, they said Monday morning, we'll get your response, no response. They said, hopefully later today, nothing later today. And they said, how about tomorrow morning? Finally, that's today. So we gave them four full days. I found the Pentagon's response odd because the response, because they, well, first of all, and they never responded. They never responded. I emailed the spokesperson and said, if you, you know, if you give me a response, I'll publish it, but I mean, it could have been like, no, we don't have a program like that. Right. If they say that they don't have a program like that, then they're lying.

2:46:29If they have a program like that. So if they don't have a program like that, should they have to answer you? Like, if they don't have a program like that, then I don't know what the harm is from saying that they don't have a program like that. Remember, Arrow, with it's, this is the blue book, you know, 3 .0 or whatever it is. They said they looked and they're like, we looked and there's no secret UAP program. If I wanted to spread misinformation or disinformation, if I was an intelligence agent, I think I would get someone to be a whistleblower. I would sanction whistleblowers. I would tell them, go on podcasts, go on radio shows, go on television and discuss all these different disclosures.

2:47:13And you can't tell them everything. The top secret stuff, you know, some stuff you got to keep secret, but I wish I could tell you, but there's more. I can't tell you. There's a lot going on. And that's a really good way, I would think, if I was in control of a narrative that I wanted to be continuously slippery. Like, this is a very slippery conversation. Like, you never get to the end of it. What would be the motivation? Because there's some sort of a program that exists that they want to hide. And the best way to hide it is to continually bring up and then debunk these fake programs or crash sites for dealing with aliens.

2:47:53I would make a bunch of things that are absolutely provably untrue that could eventually be proved is untrue. Attribute them to these people and then have everything else that gets set about the subject get reduced to nonsense. Because that's essentially what it does. If you start talking about UFOs and UAP, you're a cuckoo. You're a cuck. Until you show me some hard evidence, I've got bills, I've got a family. I don't have time for this. And the people that do get really wrapped up and they're kind of cuckie. And the best way to keep that cuckiness going is to give them a little bit of taste, to give them a taste, throw them a little breadcrumbs trail.

2:48:25I think there's a thing we found. Oh, so you're saying you would do that disinformation if there were, if you were covering up UAP. If I was covering up UAPs, I would have all these people go out and be whistleblowers. Because the more they do it, the more it looks ridiculous and the more everyone's like disclosures imminent and it never comes. It's like Lucy and the football with Charlie Brown. You never get a kid. I don't think it's football. But here's what I would say. I would say if it's, so first of all, if the government is running a disinformation campaign on UAPs against the American people, that's bad.

2:48:59And it seems like that's serious business. And it seems like if they are doing that, then I would want to know. It seems like they do that. Well, I'm comfortable saying I'm like 90, 95 % that the government is hiding information. Okay. And the reason I'm so confident of that is because Donald Trump said so multiple times that they're hiding information. Well, they cite him in the article. They probably told him that. And also they lied to him about a bunch of stuff. Oh, sure. Didn't even tell him about Chinese drones because they were, he was going to shoot him down. So they told him something that he says has not been made public.

2:49:34So if that's, so my view is, look, if you think it's, it's either a secret weapons program, that it's a government disinformation program, that it's just missidings, then I want the government. I want to, they have an obligation to tell us. Yes. Article, the first article of the Constitution is congressional oversight of the executive branch. That is why we are a democracy. If you have an executive branch, that is, even covert operations, secret weapons programs, all must be shared. It doesn't have to be the whole Congress. They have the gang of eight, you know, which is the heads of the military and intelligence committees, plus the ranking member, plus the speaker and the, and the Senate, the Senate and the minorities, those eight people have to be told, well, they're not being told what this is.

2:50:24It's, no, I'm not denying that it's absolutely illegal. But I'm saying that if it is illegal and has been done this way for so long, the odds of you untangling that are very, they're going to fight against that with tooth and nail because that's going to put a lot of people in jail. That's going to get a lot of people fired. A lot of people are going to lose their careers. If they lie to Congress, if they misappropriated funds, there's a lot of weird stuff that gets attached to that. And so I think there is some sort of, whether it's the government, whoever's doing, there's some sort of sophisticated disinformation campaign that's essentially tied to everything.

2:51:00There's a disinformation campaign that's tied, that's tied to medicine, this is disinformation campaign tied to fluoride and the water. There's a disinformation campaign that's tied to almost everything. The idea that there wouldn't be for UFOs is kind of crazy. Of course there is. And I think, but if there is, that's really a disinformation. It's illegal. It's illegal. It's bad. I know I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you 100%. I have a feeling there's a lot going on. And I think they have infantilized us for so long that to give up the reins of that is the same thing that people, like why they don't want to give up the reins of free speech.

2:51:40They're in control of the power. If you really do have knowledge that we are not alone and you're hiding that from the American people, you've, well, you've already made a terrible choice and you've been probably making this choice for decades. Why would you change that now? And what are the repercussions? Are any of them positive? It doesn't seem like they are for your career. I think the best way forward, if you're just one of those people that wants to protect their career, which most of them are, which is what the whole Hunter Biden laptop thing was about. People are protecting their career.

2:52:09Trump get into office and everybody here gets fired. So they protect their career with lies. This is just what people do. So if you're asking them to disclose stuff that they've been hiding for so long, good, fucking luck, good luck. And if you wanted to create a misinformation campaign or you wanted to confuse the waters even more, I'd have a bunch of fake whistleblowers. I'd get agents to say a bunch of crazy shit about biological entities and mind control and shut down nuclear power plants. I'd have them say all kinds of crazy shit that's provably untrue. Okay, here's the little red lights.

2:52:48Yeah, this is just a photograph. I think it's a little lantern. It's a video. Let's see. Yeah, maybe it's a lantern, but, um, oh, whoa. It doesn't have the like a paper. Yeah, that's moving pretty quick. Whoa, that's weird looking. It didn't have any like paper. Um, the problem is you need a Samsung phone because you'd have a better zoom. I had a friend just send me a similar video from Ohio where his mom took a thought it was some orbs flying over and it looked honestly weirder than this. And he found out a couple of hours later it was a memorial service. It's a bunch of lanterns that I left.

2:53:22Yeah. I mean, it could be. I'm not saying it's hard. It's hard to look at it because you've got it zoomed in because you're not, I'm not getting a perspective of how quickly it's actually moving. It does look weird, but it also looks like how it would look like it was fire in one of those months. I'm very sure. I just say it looks like it's the fire and maybe wind blowing. Yeah, it could be. Was it a windy day? No, it was not windy at all. Um, that's fucking weird. It was weird. It's definitely weird, but it's not moving super naturally. I don't, again, I, all I'm saying is that it's unidentified drunk aliens.

2:53:57They look hammered. They're not even driving. I mean, also, they were, they didn't look big. So, I mean, I'm not suggesting there was anybody in there. Right. Um, and it wasn't like, and it wasn't at orb, like, like, the story seemed more interesting. The more interesting. Yeah. The stars moving, scenes more interesting. I've never seen shit. I convinced myself I saw something when I was kid, but I'm sure it was a jet. This is the one for my friend. Look, there's like two or three of things that come together here and they're starting to fly together. Oh, that looks more like aliens to me, but they found out it was, like, it was lanterns.

2:54:26Yeah, it's probably lanterns. That's probably what you saw. Yeah. I know. But did you get the last one? That's the whole beautiful thing about, like, real, uh, investigations. You could find out stuff that's nonsense and ball lightning. Yeah. One of my favorite ones. I've seen actual videos of ball lightning. Have you ever seen it? No, I don't think I have. So Jamie, this is obviously a lantern. Show us videos of ball lighting. I was looking for one earlier. There's one that's moving. Clearly a CGI that I don't want to get confused in there. So one of them staying still and the other ones moving weird.

2:54:57I can get the moon. I don't know. What is that other one? Actually, that's weird. I don't even remember that. Um, so it's okay. Um, see if you can find video ball lightning. Ball lightning is wild, man. If you didn't know what that is, if you didn't know that this is like tectonic plates shifting against each other and they release energy and you see this stuff flying through the air, it's so crazy looking and it doesn't look. Does it look like this? Look at it. It looks not sure which one is the real case of it. I'll be honest with you. That's ball lightning. Uh -huh. This is in a lightning storm, but there's a really cool one of this canyon where ball lightning just comes out of the ground, this canyon.

2:55:35It's like, I think this one on the, I think that's fake, but I'm not sure. That looks like CGI effects. That looks super fake. That looks like a ghost. Yeah. That might be a ghost. It is CGI. It's pretty good, but is that CGI? I don't know what dope. It looks like, I mean, if it is that it could be lightning, because it does. If that's ball lightning, that's why. The other one would be to look at the, the thing is to look at the Chinese lanterns and see how they compare to the, uh, the orange. Whatever it is, like ball lightning is a real thing and it's really weird and uh, it moves around and you, if you didn't know any better, you'd think it's an alien, but that doesn't discount like ezekiel's take of a wheel within a wheel and all that crazy shit from the Bhagavat Gita.

2:56:16Here's a lantern. Oh, we were a little pretty lantern. That's what I just said. Yeah, it's a lantern, bro. It didn't look like it, but it could, you could be right. I don't know. I just don't know. Who knows? It might be some kind of, that looked weird. Yeah, but it's also clouds and it's, he's super zoomed in. Yeah. Um, so what do you think? This, this, this whistleblower says that the other part of the story is the description of the database and they say that there is this very large database of high quality videos, still photos and also, um, other sensory data that, that has, that has captured atmospheric effects of UAPs.

2:57:00Um, they, you know, Christopher Mellon had said that, that the Pentagon has much better quality video evidence than has been released. It makes you want to get a job in the Pentagon. Show me. This person says that, that, that there's a lot of it. Yeah. And they describe one case of an F -22, which is an amazing fighter jet, being escorted by a set of UAP orbs out of its target missionary. Another case of a UAP uh, declining from very high up in the atmosphere and coming right over an aircraft carrier that the entire crew saw. So some incidents that have not been reported. Hmm. It's a, the report is in the hands of members of Congress and this is a critical time because again, if you are a skeptic, if you're debunker, whatever, you should not want the government spreading disinformation on this.

2:58:00If you want to get to the bottom of it, we should get to the bottom of it. We need Congress. Right. To hold hearings. And then the other, the other pitch I'd make on this issue is that these people that I'm interviewing, if they're, first of all, if they're actors, they're incredible because they are genuinely terrified when I talk to them. They're genuinely scared. You know, most actors aren't very good actors. So I'm always like, these guys are the greatest actors I've ever met, these people. Um, so they need better whistleblower protections. And if you interview congressional staffers, members of Congress, they will acknowledge that whistleblowers do not have proper protections for whether for UAPs or anything else.

2:58:37What do you, what is your take on this? What do you think is going on with the UAPs? I genuinely, I'm genuinely looking for more videos. I was just going to keep sending them though. I've got another lantern. All right, another lantern. Did you see what's going on here? You want to believe that's not lanterns. So you want to keep showing us better videos? I'm genuinely agnostic. I'm just being thorough, dude.

2:59:05I'm convinced I'm putting all my money on lanterns on the orange orbs. So what do you think this UAP program? What do you think they're actually studying? Like, what is that? I don't know. I don't know. All I, all I'm, all I'm really confident seeing is I'm in the words, I'm very much an incrementalist in the sense that like, I like my stories to move the ball forward. It's been, it's been over a year since I've done a story on this. And it was always like, I'm not going to, I'm not something that wants to just, I mean, on some things, I'll write a similar story like free speech or whatever. But on this issue, I'm like, I'm not going to write a new story on this.

2:59:36I really have something. Right. I'm very confident that the government is not revealing all that it knows. And that arrow, the organization that the Congress created to reveal what the government knows did not reveal what it knows. And that really was engaged. Because look, it's one thing to be like, hey, we didn't find anything. It's all good. But then for the guy that was running that program to come out and actively disparage people in the ways that they're doing, that's character assassination. That's, that's the, that's the ridicule strategy. I object to that because I don't think that that's consumable.

3:00:12I think you can be like, look, that person misinformed it or whatever. You thought that the orange orbs were something that they weren't or whatever. But to go out there and like actively disparage people, that really, I think it's very concerning. It is concerning. And it also makes you very suspicious. Yeah. So why would you why the need to be such a dick about it? It's still a picture. No, it's not. It's a strategy of of counter. It's a strategy of of character assassination. And I think it's not something that our government should be engaged in. No, I agree with you. But it also makes me wonder what's the motivation and what you must have formed some sort of a personal opinion on what's going on.

3:00:54Or at least you have an inclination towards what's going on. I mean, I think that if you read through the histories, so I mean, I just think the problem is that there's so many possibilities of what's going on. Like I said, I'm a little skeptical that we've mastered anti -gravity because that would just be so game changing. And I think it would just take a huge amount of effort on either hand. I have interviewed people that are not comfortable coming forward yet that that say that we have and and claim direct evidence of that. And it's just not I can't unfortunately say much more about it. And these are folks that want stronger visible protections to be able to come forward.

3:01:35Right. But I find it I find it hard to believe just because of my knowledge of nuclear that we've we've got those capabilities. I also, you know, like what's amazing is like the most for me one of the most amazing parts of this is when you just go into the newspaper archives and you're reading stories from the 40s and the 50s and 60s and 70s and you're seeing. And that's part of the reason I am also with you. I'm skeptical that we are getting any closer because there's a way in which like you read New York Times magazine stories from the 1960s and 70s that actually treat the subject not with ridicule, but treated seriously.

3:02:07And they actually were reporting on government, you know, programs and whatnot. Well, project blue book was essentially designed to ridicule the people that thought they saw something. Jay Allen Hanukh when he left project blue book became a UFO proponent. Yeah, that's all you need to know. Which is very convincing. Yeah, absolutely convinced that it's all real. Yeah. And explain how he was told to label everything as swamp gas. Yeah. Which by the way, if you watch that original press conference this where he says it could be swamp gas, which I think it was a Michigan siding. The whole room just goes, ah, they're like they the whole right.

3:02:41The whole room is so convinced that it's not swamp gas that they're like it's like journalists. They're like all they're all they're all they ridicule the idea that it's swamp gas. So there's definitely moments in history where you have elites, you know, media elites, government elites and others who are like, this is a real phenomenon. I mean, it takes seriously. I think we're in that moment again now. Congress needs to do more. We need to have legislation in anybody who in my view, who anybody that's like a debunker or a skeptic or whatever who says that we shouldn't pass legislation to disclose what the government knows for me, that person is acting in bad faith because if you're really sure that there's nothing there, then you should be first in line to demand a disclosure.

3:03:21Do you think there's a genuine fear in giving people this information and having a collapse of society if it turns out to be true? A genuine if we there was a full disclosure and all this top secret video that has been hidden it's really high resolution. All that stuff gets released and the government says this is what we know. I'm sorry, sorry, we're keeping this from you, but if we, you know, but what would it give immunity? I mean, so the thing is, I don't know what it is, let's say what it shows, but maybe they know what it shows. Let's say, let's take a most, let's take a very, let's say that there's extraterrestrials, okay, and the government knows about it and let's say maybe there's already in contact.

3:03:58And then the government comes out and goes, hey, we've been in contact with extraterrestrials. Like, what did they say? They go, the extraterrestrials told us that there is no God and that they were just, they had created all these religions. Then the question is, why would we believe them? I mean, in other words, like if you're like a truly, who's saying that? I'm not saying anybody is. Well, who's saying that the extraterrestrials say there's no God? No, I'm saying that if you go through the scenario that goes, oh, societies will collapse because people will, it'll counter, I mean, that's the story, right?

3:04:31Well, I think this society collapses because we're faced with an intelligent being that's been able to visit us for ages whenever it wants and we weren't aware of it. And we, the illusion that anyone of human race is in control of this earth and can lead us from some sort of a position of knowledge and strength in the face of this overwhelming force from another planet. That would, that would be a collapse of rules and of society, the like that we have never seen before. But why? Because no one would listen to anyone anymore because there would all sun be a new daddy in town and people would want to figure out what the new daddy wants them to do.

3:05:10It depends because I mean, I think that you have a scenario where it goes, again, we're just, we're just completely, I'm talking mass hysteria of fear. No, you just kind of, I mean, if the government's like, look, we've been in contact with them for decades and here's what they want. You know, they just want to, they want an earth base and they want some of our, you know, you know, whatever. I mean, I think if they were like, they're actually the abductions are all real and we signed a deal to trade technology for abductions, that could be problematic. I think that's real. I don't, that's what I've read that before.

3:05:39I mean, that's part of the law, right? It's part of the law. Who's making deals with aliens? I think much more likely to be, they do whatever the fuck they want to do and we're terrified of them. That's what I think would most much more likely. Like, are you going to make a deal with like baboons? Are you going to go to the, the fucking baboon tribe and go listen, you fucking dummies? I'm going to make a deal with you. No, you're going to do whatever you want. You're going to abduct them and perform studies on them. That's what we do. No, we, but we, but we also, we've, well, but we've, we've gone through, I mean, I happened, I included us, how we've protected gorillas in my book Apocalypse Never and like we actually, I saw gorilla in a zoo just a few years ago.

3:06:17He did not look protected. He looked like he was a gorilla prison for no fucking reason. So Joe, you've got to go see gorillas in Central Africa in life. Oh, yeah. It's incredible. It's an incredible experience. But it was, but a huge amount, I mean, people have, I mean, Diane Foss, I mean, people have fought to protect gorillas in their native habitat. The gorillas know where they're right. They actually, you have to, but the reality is some gorillas get abducted and they get put into zoos. Yes, that's the reality. It's okay. Same as some humans get abducted and they get brought on the spaceship.

3:06:47Well, we don't know that. We don't know that. Yeah, probably. Have you ever listened to Betty and Barney Hill talk about it? That, that case, I, I just read a debunking of that case and I bunking. Yeah. And I found it. You found it. Well, there it is. Okay. Finally, Pentagon goes on record. So following Michael store, the DOD is now commented, the Department of Defense has no record present or historical of any type of SAP called Immaculate Constellation. That was that so hard. Why did that take four days? That came from suit. How do you say your name? Su -Goff, I guess. Su -Goff. There's a lot to digest.

3:07:23I doubt the DOD would ever likely confirm a UAP existence. I am trying to confirm whether any type of SAP also refers to USAP. It should. We'll bring you more into what I have. USAP is just an unacknowledged special access program. So they say it's bullshit. I think I'm going to, well, I mean, I would expect that. But I know, but this is my whole point. To keep everybody fucking clueless and guessing and keep all the infighting going on. Wouldn't you release a bunch of shit that's not necessarily true? I would. If I was really running a secret government UFO retrieval program and we were in contact with extraterrestrials, I would release a bunch of nonsense all the time that makes it look stupid.

3:08:02Just like they did with Project Blue Book. You're saying if there are, if there if there is truly extraterrestrials, then the government would do disinformation initials. I think that that's interesting. That makes sense. I mean, like because they always go, people always go, well, it's just a secret weapons program. And so they're just they're just trying to create the aliens around it. But we had a we had a Manhattan project. Also, how can you say that? You don't know. Nobody knows. You could say it might be a secret weapons program. Yeah. Maybe. But it might be we get visited by fucking aliens from outer space.

3:08:34Because space is goddamn huge and life is here. So we know intelligent life exists in our solar system, which is one of hundreds of billions of solar systems just in this galaxy alone. And there's hundreds of billions of galaxies in the known universe. The odds that this is it are fucking dumb. This is a that's a dumb thought. So are we visited and does the government know? This is the question. And if they did know, and they've been protecting us all these years, because especially back before they had any control of when they had all control, rather of any narrative, whether it's newspaper, television, the government had complete and total control.

3:09:11I mean, and then the real argument is after Kennedy was assassinated, assassinated, they've had control over everything, including the presidency. Right. So you you can say whatever you want. Why would you tell people? Why would you tell people that UFOs and complicate your life? Just say it's bullshit. Higher a guy to tell everybody it's bullshit. And then a few people know about it. And those few people are the privileged few. And it feels kind of cool to have some inside information. And every now and then you get a little whistleblower and that guy's a cook. Bob Zarr. Come on. Bob Zarr's a loser.

3:09:42That guy. You really think we'd have him work on our Oh, he's on the list of the employees at Los Alamos Labs. That's a fucking bullshit. So he knows the inside of Los Alamos Labs by heart. He can walk you around. He knows the security guards. They know him by name. They remember him. He can tell you where the stations are. Oh, he tells you exactly how these things move. And then the go fast video, you see the fucking thing turning sideways and moving exactly how he described it. So if that's real, if that guy really was working on a retrieval program and that was in 1987, 1986, what? How long has this been going on?

3:10:21And if it has been going for a long time, why would they tell us now? I don't think they would. I think there's a long, if it's real, if it's a real phenomenon that the highest levels of the government are aware of, I think it's been kept under wraps for so long. It's almost impossible. It's like person coming out of the closet like that you're 58 years old. I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. You know, it's like it's been so long you've been lying. It would cause so many problems if you came out and told the truth. And I think it's very difficult for people that have been lying to hundreds of millions of people about one of the biggest questions that humans have ever had.

3:10:57Are we alone? And what is this all about? And they've had the answers for all this time. Tell us now. Too hard. Well, right. I mean, and remember Mike Pompeo, Trump CIA director, when he was asked why they didn't release all the JFK files, he said because some of the people involved are still alive. So that is potentially a plausible reason if we assume Mike Pompeo was telling the truth about why they didn't release all the JFK files. Sure. Well, especially all these people that have been lying to Congress and misallocating funds and are part of these programs that are hidden programs, you could go to jail for that.

3:11:29You could lose your career. If they blame one person or blame a group of people, and they decided, well, it was Mike's idea. Right. And then Mike's in trouble. Mike gets brought in front of Congress. And like, well, they should then they should do, by the way, then they should do blanket amnesty. I agree. That would be one way to solve that. I agree. I think that's why I'm a little whether it's Kamala or Trump, whoever gets in there, give them blanket amnesty. And let's let's fucking tell people what's going on because either it's bullshit or it's real, both of them are crazy. In fact, we've been lying about.

3:11:59I mean, and this thing was, you mentioned the Bobble's our case. And I don't know if it's true or not. But I think the ad hominems, like when you see them using ad hominem character assassination, you're like, well, wait a second. Plenty of dirt bags are right about things. Sure. Many of them worked in the FBI and CIA and the military. Certainly, plenty of people, like in other words, everybody that worked on secret weapons programs was like a boy scout. Excuse me. You know, so the idea, so the character assassination and ad hominem for me is a bit of a tell that there's something there's some other agenda going on than just being like, no, there's no information or almost always.

3:12:38And we know it's so effective because it's all the other thing it does is scares everybody else off. So you end up only the few people that are willing to do this are people that are more confident. They've got a career, they're not worried like I'm or they're just people that just think about that. Brush's position is that he just felt compelled to tell the truth because it's just too deep and too powerful to be in the hands of these people. It shouldn't be that way. And that's like people should know. Look, and that's why the whistleblower came forward is because David grushed his courage. I don't think we're alone.

3:13:09I don't know what it is, but I don't think we're alone. Well, I don't think we're alone in the universe. I think the only question is are we alone on Earth? Oh, we're alone here. I don't think I would allow us to be alone. I think I'd keep a close look on this fucking crazy assholes. They're very, if we're not alone, then the phenomenon is just so elusive or they think I would say advanced and doesn't want us to be aware completely of its presence and it's monitoring these psychotic monkeys who have this like propensity to be constantly intoxicated who are also in control of thermonuclear weapons and are enforcing magical lines they drew in the dirt.

3:13:46If we're not alone, here's the thing I'll say, if we're not alone, then the reason that we don't know what they are is because of them and not strictly because of the US government. I think both. Because if they were, if they, if they, if we're not alone, then, and they are doing all these things, then they're certainly more than capable of, of making themselves known. Well, I think one way to ensure that you don't have to kill all the people is to go to the people that have the biggest weapons and say, we're here. Stop fucking around. Leave us alone and let them do whatever they want to do. But then what are they doing?

3:14:22I mean, that's the things that they are observing us, probably observing us, just like we observe uncontacted tribes, we observe gorillas, we observe. Well, we observe, but the other thing, like we observe, remember, it's interesting because the study of, the study of gorillas was always part of actually protecting gorillas. Sure. Well, maybe they're protecting us from what ourselves. That's one theory. Well, the reason why my club, the rooms are named Fatman and Littleboy is because those bombs that they dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that started a whole wave of UFO sightings. It did. And I think that's probably why.

3:15:00I mean, just logically, if I was from another planet and I saw, oh, we've just detected a nuclear bomb went off in, on, on whatever they call our planet. Like, let's go see what they're up to, go check in on them. They probably visit infrequently, just like scientists, when they're going looking for sloths, they visit infrequently. They come, I mean, we just think of what we do. They tag them. Sure. I had a woman on here yesterday that works with wolves. This is our book. Yeah, Diane Boyd, a woman among wolves. Her entire life has been tagging wolves, releasing them, studying their behavior, finding out where they go.

3:15:36And of course, they would do that with us. We do that with wolves. Of course, they would do that with us. We do that with butterflies. We study everything. Humans are interested in other things and acquiring information. We're curious. If you're going to be the type of thing that can figure out how to get here from another planet, you're going to be really fucking curious. The curiosity that is required to allow you to figure out interstellar travel is pretty bananas. You got to be super fucking curious. And I think they probably are. I think they're probably aware that there's an adolescent period that every intelligent species goes through when it has the power to blow itself up and it doesn't have the wisdom to not do it.

3:16:17Because there's clear examples right now every day all over the world of people killing people, blowing people up. You can see it in the news every day with what's going on in the Middle East, what's going on in Ukraine. It's really clear that we have the power, but we don't have the wisdom. And so there's probably an evolutionary period where this intelligent animal adapts and learns from its mistakes and eventually gets past these base primate instincts of greed and envy and lust and anger and retribution and retaliation gets past this territorial instinct and recognizes that we are truly all connected.

3:16:55But it takes a long time biologically. And I think the thing that helps it along is technology. And I think there's this furious battle of trying to claim ground and control technology's influence on people because we know it's an overwhelming influence. And we know that the technology that has allowed people to have truth, maybe for the first time in human history where anyone like yourself can come on a podcast like this, an independent journalist, and you can reach millions and millions of people. That's never happened before. And that's changing things. AI will change things further. And then sentient AI will change things in impossible ways that we can't even imagine.

3:17:36There's not a science fiction author around that's right now got an accurate idea of what 100 years from now looks like. It's all 100 % guesswork. If you lived in 1500, 1600, 100 won that much fucking difference. Everybody's got a musket. Everybody's on a boat. Basically the same shit. The difference between 2024 and 2021, 2021, 2024 is going to be bananas. It's going to be impossible to imagine. What a time to be alive now. It's an awesome time to be alive. It's amazing. It's a golden age of journalism too. I mean, it's a great time to be in journalism. It's a great time for real journalism because you're confronted with so much bullshit and propaganda and that people reject that bullshit and propaganda.

3:18:18And they're turning towards real journalists. So thank you. Thank you, Joe. Thank you for being here. Thank you for everything that you do. You are a real source of light in this confusing time that we live in. And I appreciate your courage and I appreciate writing and all the work that you put out. I appreciate you. I appreciate you opening up the conversation in the ways you have. Honestly, there is no way that we could the whole society could be having this conversation about U .S. if it were for you. True story. It was a great story. It was a great story. There's plenty of other podcasts that we'll be talking about.

3:18:47But thank you. Appreciate it. Bye everybody.