#2228 - Josh Dubin

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33:35It's authentically American representing uncompromising quality for the rugged, the powerful and the passionate. Tap the banner to learn more or visit buffalotracedustillery .com. That's buffalotracedustillery .com. Distilled, aged and bottled by Buffalo Trace Distillery, 90 proof, Franklin County, Kentucky, Buffalo Trace, American, family owned, independent and perfect. It's totally untamed. Like, probably when I had my first experiences was a little more than 20 years ago. I think people had this very ignorant idea that was born out of propaganda. Because you have to think 20 years ago it was only 30 years removed from the sweeping psychedelic act.

34:23So you're dealing with a whole society that's been just programmed by propaganda in lies. And those propaganda in lies were established in order to villainize this one group of the population that was completely changing the culture. The difference in the United States culture from 1965 to 1955 to 1965 was so dramatic. It was such an enormous shift. The Vietnam War, the protests, all these things that were happening in the 60s, the music, everything was changing so radically and so drastically that the people in power had an accurate sense that they were losing control. And that change was inevitable and they threw water on it and they did a great job.

35:19If you look at it from that perspective, the difference between me, it's terrible what they did, but it was effective in that from 19th century. A great job of throwing water on it. And to make things better for everyone is to make things better for the most disadvantaged. And this was the civil rights movement. And this was the entire war movement. This was recognized that people were being taken advantage by the military industrial complex and just sent overseas so that they could profit. Amen. I, the first guy that I met that really like, um, changed my perspective on, on the world, especially in terms of what, what I could potentially do as a lawyer was Jerry left court.

36:21Jerry left court was Abby Hoffman's lawyer. He was the lead attorney in the Panther 21 trial. I was like a kid. I was in my late 20s and I was met with him to help him pick a jury on a case. And I had read about him before. And he saw something in me. We hit it off. He became like my, like my surrogate uncle. And he would regale me with tales of his, of the Panther 21 trial. And here's a guy that was kind of winging it in his late 20s and can feel the change that you're talking about happening. And he could feel the weight against him, the pushback coming from the other side where he would get death threats.

37:13He would get bomb threats at his office where he could not even see his client in jail approaching trial and had to get on a cherry picker in, in outside the jail to be able to get even with the window so that they can communicate. So Jerry left court. And he by the way got a full acquittal in the Panther 21 trial against all odds. He was the first person that told me about coin and tell pro. And what the gut with the lengths that the government will go to when they feel like their message, their way of doing things is being challenged. And I think that you hit the nail right on the head, which is this was like a flu in the face of, of, leave it to be ver, a flu in the face of, you know, father knows best.

38:13It flew in the face of what white America was trying to instill as a value system that should be followed by all people without question for all time. And people started to say, what the fuck is this about? I want to explore the messiness and the gray areas of what it means to exist as a human being. And that expression, whether it was Richard Nixon, the people around him that got their backs up. So, you know, so if you are a student of history and you start to understand sort of why we're here rather than just looking here and forward, I think these things for me are a little bit easier to understand when somebody comes at me and calls me a race baiter for the work that I do because I talk about the problem of race.

39:14I understand that that's born out of ignorance. And I don't mean ignorance like your dummy. I mean ignorance like your, you're not, you don't have access to information. Yeah, or you chose not to have access to your perspective is incorrect. Read Ta Nisi Coats's book between the world and me. It's a fascinating fucking tale. It's a letter written from this, you know, black man to his 15 year old son.

39:43And it is, it's a life all during book for me because it puts you into his soul of what it has been like to grow up as a black man in this country.

39:56And it stops me in my tracks when I think about it, when I talk about it because it's like the only way that we can get to a more common understanding is to, you know, I think to read books like that and to talk to people and if you're so closed off and closed -minded. And again, I keep on sort of adding this disclaimer. Maybe this is my, my aversion to like getting attacked. I am not excusing if Sheldon did this. I just think that it's not so simple as, oh, you let some guy, you hope some guy get out and get resents and look what he did and fuck all these people and fuck your movement. Okay, you're entitled to that opinion.

40:36That's where I leave it. Yeah, you can't listen to those people. You just, you know what you're doing. You're smart. You can't listen. It's just you're going to have those people. They're always going to exist. There's always going to be people with limited information perspective, you know, and limited information people sometimes are the loudest and the most vocal about it. And also the ones who are least willing to objectively assess. How they came to the conclusions that they're so vocal and loud about, you know, limited information people that's a big lean. That's why clickbait headlines work.

41:14Well, look, I mean, that's why you get attacked sometimes by, you know, you don't know about it because you don't read it. That's why you get attacked sometimes. Some people try to send it to me. It's funny. Hey, man, fuck off. Yeah, send me that shit. You know, someone someone in my family, a cousin of mine sent me a link to a story about you endorsing Trump and wrote what the fuck? And I said, right, what the fuck? Why are you sending this to me? Like, first of all, what the fuck? What the fuck are you? What you're because you all of a sudden support this woman who by the way probably should have accepted the imitation to come on the show.

42:06Oh, it might have been the difference between people getting to actually know who the fuck she was, but putting that aside, it's like, I have to do a much better job of filtering that stuff out because the notion that, you know, you are going to be influenced by outside forces other than what you're doing. Like for you to say, you know what you're doing. I like to think I know what I'm doing. And I feel like I'm doing. Good things. And I just got to keep on working in that direction, not let what happens. Slow me down. Try to learn from it and go, for look, I don't want this to come across as like constantly being like a situation where I'm every time I get on here, I thank you.

43:01But I think the importance of this forum was was made clear by. Having the president on by having the vice president on because it's the only open forum where you don't have to worry about being judged about now someone chopping up what you say and twisting it or leaving some remarks on the cutting room floor. And it's it's also important because you don't give a fuck about what other people say or think and you just do what you feel is the right thing to do because I mean, I've told you privately, I'll say it now again, it would have been the easy thing for you to do would have been to say, well, fuck this guy.

43:45I'm turning my back. I don't need to have a mon again. It was never going to happen. Well, listen, what you've done is amazing. And the people that you have brought on the show have changed a lot of people's perspectives about our justice system. A lot of people, you brought on some incredible people. And you've told some incredible stories. And as you said, people have been exonerated for crimes that they didn't commit. If you are a person who's listening to this and you would you could be fucked by the system. It's possible. You could be trapped by a corrupt prosecutor. It happens. Thank God it hasn't happened to you.

44:22But if it did happen to you, you would pray that there's a Josh Dubin in the world that pays attention to your case. I appreciate it. I mean, I don't it's not just me. There's a village of people. There is. But a person like you. And I think highlighting that and highlighting the need for that and understanding of how the system can railroad you and the system can really fuck you over. I think one of the things that we saw during the Trump campaign was the legal system being used against one of the most powerful people in the world. And how they can get away with turning 34 misdemeanors. So essentially one misdemeanor but 34 versions of it 34 writing in a ledger incorrectly that's a misdemeanor and is past the statute of limitations can be converted into a felony and turned against a guy who's running for president as law fair.

45:20It's just completely using the legal system to try to attack a guy and try to take him out of the race and also try to label him a convicted felon. So once you have this label a convicted felon, you heard it on all the talk shows convicted felon convicted felon. But enough people had a chance to look at the circumstances of the case and understand what was actually what he was actually being tried for paying someone off to not talk about how he fucked them. Is that what we're worried about or we worried about world worth three. Is that what we're worried about or we worried about terror cells like being established in the United States because our borders wide open.

45:59Is that what are we worried about the price of groceries and people being able to feed themselves. That's what we should be fucking worried about not whether or not some guy fuck someone like who cares. It's so interesting to me because the conversations that people in the legal community in New York were having at the time I cannot tell you how many times. It didn't matter what side of the spectrum you were on politically but in New York there's a lot of fucking Democrats and I can't tell you how often I got this call. What is the crime here? Well, I mean with regard to that particular case, first of all, the DA Manhattan seemed to realize that it was a feudal endeavor to go after this guy and retreated and then something happened and they remember the special prosecutors quit because they were furious apparently that the DA wouldn't go forward with the case.

46:55Then something happens in between and Alvin Bragg, the district attorney of Manhattan proceeds with the case. So many legal scholars said, what is the crime here? I understand there's a series of misdemeanors that somehow gets flipped into a felony legal scholars that had issues with it and if they spoke about it publicly they were attacked. Alan Dershowitz was one of them. He was attacked. Anyone that would speak out and there's this fear for good legal minds to get behind defending a case like that because it's viewed in democratic strongholds like kryptonite. Right. So you mean remarking on that case, yeah, it was weaponized against him and that's why I think it was this morning the judge in that case agreed to a joint motion by the prosecution and the defense to put everything on hold because they're deciding whether or not they're going to dismiss that case.

48:00And if you remember the drum that was constantly beat before this election was, I'll never get out of these state cases. The federal ones we understand because you can pardon himself. But the state cases, oh, those are going to be a problem. Well, not so fast, right? Because now if it was that much of a crime and that people were so up in arms better, why are they now considering dismissing it? And I think that the it puts the lie to the notion that this was really something that we wanted to make an example out of and you can't engage in this type of conduct, what conduct? You know, it was obviously politically motivated.

48:43And you know, and it happens all over the country. It happens all over the country on both sides of the aisle though. So we have, I have a case right now that and for me to be able to say this is probably, you know, I had to think, is this is this the craziest fucking case I've had? And it has to be, it has to be because the DA that is sitting in judgment of whether or not these four men that I'm going to tell you about in a moment, right before the election for him to become DA gets indicted. He gets indicted for allegedly like harassing a former employee and then trying to bribe her not to file a complaint against him, something like that right before the election.

49:43And all of a sudden he is now embroiled in this, he loses the election a couple of weeks ago. And he is now finds himself wrongful according to him wrongfully accused of a crime he didn't commit. Well, my client is a guy by the name of John Edwards. And there were four guys. This is a Lorraine Ohio Lorraine County Ohio John Edwards, Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis and a guy named Al Cleveland, New York guys. In the early 90s, who were selling drugs at Ohio, they were going back and forth from Ohio to New York. And one morning, a man by the name of EPS is found dead in the street. His roommate is found about seven hours later, woman named Marsha Blakely dumped in an alley behind the shopping center.

50:57The case is cold for a month. The police have hit dead ends. They have nowhere to go with the case. The prosecutor's office offers a $2 ,000 reward for anyone with information about the case. What did you know that the next day, a man by the name of William Avery senior walks in to the Lorraine County prosecutor's office. They sit him down with the police and he says, I have information about the case. Now, this guy, William Avery senior was a known informant. The police knew him. He had come and tried to give information about other cases. He didn't pan out. He was also a drug addict. And they sit with him for over an hour and they say to him, everything you're telling us has been in the papers.

51:53So you're not giving us anything new here. He shows up the next day with a son, William Avery junior. And he says, he witnessed the murder. So William Avery junior talks to the police at the end of that interview. He goes, what about the reward money? And the officer says, let's turn the tape recorder off and let's talk about that. They tell him, we're not giving you the reward money because now you're telling us that information that's been in the papers and all the time, all you're telling us is that you saw Marshall Blakely assaulted in an apartment. You're not telling us anything about the murder.

52:40The very next day, he shows up and says that Al Cleveland told him that he murdered Marshall Blakely. So let's put a bookmark in it because I decided I wanted to do something a little bit different today. At the end of the episode, I'm going to give you a Twitter account. I've submitted today a 40 page submission, all of the exhibits that are mentioned in that submission to the Lorraine County prosecutor. His name is JD Tomlinson. So now I'm going to invite the public. Before you go writing a letter to him or calling him, you read this submission and look at the exhibits yourself because what often happens is that in these reinvestigations, prosecutors offices have something called a conviction integrity unit where they say they'll reinvestigate the case.

53:44And the very first thing they make you do is sign a no media agreement that you won't go to the media because the last thing they want you to do is what I just did is to talk about the case publicly. So we're not in a conviction integrity unit. We're trying to appeal to a prosecutor JD Tomlinson, who from what I understand is told Al Cleveland's wife because I've spoken her. Her name was Roberta, great woman, came up to her in the summer at a barbecue and said when I was a law student, I sat in on your husband's trial. And it always bothered me. And I want you to come in and have your lawyers come in.

54:25I'm going to do the right thing. And now that he's been indicted, he has gone silent. I haven't heard from him. I've texted him. I see he reads my messages because he has read receipts on. I guess he doesn't know that. And I've asked him for his time. I think in his wildest dreams, he probably never could have imagined that the case was going to now become national news. He has between now and December 31st to do the right thing and exonerate them. The incoming DA would never do it. I don't think from what I've heard. So I'm going to invite the public and I'll give you the link at the end. And I want to tell you the rest of the story.

55:06Because some of the things I tell you, you're going to say, come on, that can't be true. So I have the exhibits sitting in a folder for everybody to read. But you know, I think that the justice system has been weaponized against JD Tomlinson. Because he was coming up for a re -election. There's all sorts of personal animosity between him and the guy that just got elected. There's allegations at least that the guy that just got elected helped, you know, was somehow involved in getting him indicted by a special prosecutor. I don't know if it's true or not. But it doesn't just happen on the big national stage.

55:50It happens all over the place and you just don't always hear about it. Well, I think the fact that it happened on the big national stage, the way it did, and not just the case of the hush money, but also the case of Mara Lago being overvalued, which is preposterous. That was one of the most ridiculous ones. They listed it at what, $17, $18 million. I would buy five of those if they're available for $18 million. You know much money you would make for that kind of property. You ever been to this place? No. I've been there a bunch. I've seen it. It's magnificent. You walk in there and you feel like, you know, Marjorie Post bought it and had it designed.

56:35It's magnificent. Forbes, I think, had valued it between $7 and $900 million. Is that true? Find out what the valuation was. But like independently before all this shit, it had been valued. And I think Trump valued it over a billion, which of course he's going to do. And he's doing it to the bank. Right. But not alone. Paid the loan off with interest. Everything was fine. Nobody. There's zero victims involved in this. And the fact that they want to say that it was actually. So what does it say here? Okay, 350. Okay. So the club had revenues of $25 .1 million for the calendar year of 2017, $22, in 2018 and $21, in 2019, 2022, Forbes estimated the value of the state around $350 million.

57:22I think Trump jacked it way higher than that. And I think I've read somewhere that someone had said between seven and nine if you could like what a real estate evaluation would be like what it's actually worth in the state that it's at. I think there was an issue though that it was a wasn't it like listed as a national historic landmark or something like that, Jamie. Right. So then you really can't do anything to it, which devalues it somewhat. But still. I would think listen, 18 million is fucking crazy. There's no property like that anywhere. You feel like you're in Europe when you're there.

57:57It is, it is a magnificent place and has some of the best food in Florida. So I don't and I don't know they part of the valuation of something like that seems to me to be a bit subjective. It's now the home of the sitting two time president of the United States. So yeah, but putting all that aside just the real estate alone. There was a lot that was sold next to it or a home that was sold next to it. There was $50 million. And they it's not just more a logo across the street to have the beach club that sits right on the beach. But the point is is that they're meddling into look, the bank could have said, well, we're going to send in a crazer out there.

58:41Right. And we're going to determine whether or not we agree with you that it's worth that that happens for anyone that's ever sold home. So yeah, the point is there's no victim. The point is like there it's not like he got this loan and then defrauded the bank and then defaulted on his loan and then pocketed the money. No, no, he paid everything back with interest. It was profitable for the bank. Everything worked out. It's like this is a bullshit case. Everyone knows it's a bullshit case. So that's another one that was in the news that everybody got a chance to see. Well, hopefully hopefully it opens people's eyes.

59:15Look, there's a lot of white collar crimes that I've been a defense lawyer on where you see the human cost of a prosecution, what it does to the person accused, but also their family. And to somehow crawl out from under the weight of the federal government, these these take years and a fortune to defend. And oftentimes you're thinking, why did they bring this case? What are the victims here? And they come up with some lost calculation that's very theoretical. I'm talking about cases where you can't point to a victim that lost money. And you know, you wonder why some prosecutions are brought and others aren't.

1:00:09And you see again, what it does to not only devastate families and the accused, but is it really deterring anyone? I would never ever enter an industry where I was working with stocks, bonds, commodities, anything that was regulated in any way by FINRA, the SEC, because they'll, oh, it seems like they can make a case sometimes when there isn't a case to be made. And hopefully, you know, regardless of what's on the political spectrum you're on, what happened to Trump should be eye opening to people because you don't have to agree with him or his politics or his policies to see what's happening today as we sit here when everything's being reconsidered.

1:00:56And you think about the massive expense that it takes to prosecute these cases. That guy has, I don't care what anybody says about him. He's got to be one of the toughest motherfuckers you've ever met to stare down all of this. And most people would be in a puddle to stare down these prosecutions and the threat of going to jail and everything else that breaks a lot of people. Yeah. And then to a assassination times. Yeah. Jesus Christ. He's built, he's built different. Yeah, he has. I mean, the guy's 78 years old and I talked to him for three hours and he didn't pee before. He didn't pee afterwards.

1:01:40Just sat here, talked, didn't lose any energy and then flew off to do a campaign rally. Yeah, listen, I hope I wish him all the success in the world. I hope he does well. I got these, well, you can't vote for Kamala Harris after what you've said about her. You know, right. Yeah. I voted for Jill Stein because this two party system to me is fucked. You know, you got to like, you got to be with us or them. And then there's all kinds of gas lighting that goes on. Yeah. You have to answer to people. I just feel that there should be more choices. But that's a different. There certainly should be. That's a different.

1:02:15But you, you know, you spoke on the podcast about her history as a prosecutor and what she had done. And I know they contacted you after, after that. Yeah. I mean, what was happening? Well, this was way back. Yeah. When I think it was days before she was selected to be the vice presidential running mate for Biden. But I think it was Carpenter who was, who said his name is a great congressman. He was an eye patch. I don't know. Oh, Dan Crenshaw. Dan Crenshaw, not Carpenter. Dan Crenshaw took a clip from the podcast and was circulating it on Twitter. And it was of me being critical of her. And, you know, and again, that's a situation where she had so many opportunities during this campaign to just say, listen.

1:03:09I, obviously, I watched a little vignette about this family who was prosecuted for their treatment child. And it ruined them. So all of this, I'm a prosecutor and I'm going to prosecute the case against this. That, that petrified me because I have sat in rooms with prosecutors that just want to be right and win. And I would just say, please just open your mind a little bit. I was just, I just sat in the room with a conviction integrity unit. And there were prosecutors in the room where, and I can't sign one of those agreements. So I can't name the case or the city or the burrow. But where the prosecutor went to federal prison for bribing witnesses and is accused of the same conduct in this case where he was giving money to someone who was recanted their testimony.

1:04:14And the prosecutor sitting in the room were like, it wasn't that they weren't open minded. They had their mind made up before we got in there. And you feel like saying, can you just listen, just listen. They just want to win. Yeah. And I think that that is my problem with the two party system is that it's either on this side or you're on this side. And there's no room for gray area between the issues. I have, I have a friend who, I mean, I, I learned so much during this election. I have a friend who is from Central America. And she was telling me I didn't, when Trump won the first time I was furious.

1:04:55I couldn't stand a guy. But when I came to this country, I saw my mom fight for citizenship. And I saw what she had to go through the right way for me to get citizenship. And she said, so I just can't vote for anybody but him. So everybody has their own reasons for doing it. It doesn't mean it has to be all about a cult of personality and you're voting for your endorsing everything about the person. And I think that, you know, having that understanding that, you know, look, a lot of people that I spoke to a friend of mine the other day that the grandparents, you know, were in the Holocaust. His grandfather survived the Holocaust.

1:05:37And he voted for Trump because he's like, I didn't feel protected by the other side. You know, as, as those grandson of people that went through that. So yeah, I just think that watching a system get weaponized again, someone in that, in that way. It's upsetting and hopefully like you said, it opens people's eyes to the fact that if they could do it to the president, you know, it could happen to you. And it's so transparent. It was so transparent. It wasn't like he committed a murder. And there's a lot of evidence pointing to the fact that he committed this murder. No, it was just a crime that didn't make any sense.

1:06:14You're going to spend millions and millions of dollars prosecuting this crime. You're going to parade it around for the whole world just so the Democrats can have this talking point convicted felon. And you just see it repeated over and over again on MSNBC and CNN. These pundits want to say convicted felon. They want to say that. Like, what's the fucking crime? Tell me what the crime is. But when you want to get smart and spout off facts, why don't you tell me about the case? Because I've looked at it and it's fucking bananas. And if it happened, you'd be terrified because they just made a crime.

1:06:47They made a felony out of something that's not a felony. I mean, listen. The, um, if you're looking for logic and reasoning in any of these, you're not going to find it. I mean, listen, I feel terrible. But I feel different about some of the cases. Like I feel like the, you know, the election case has has the most substance to it. You know, standing up and saying the elections rigged the elections rigged. I have a problem with that. But, you know, obviously more than half the country didn't have as much of a problem with it. And that was one of the ones that I said was the weirdest where he didn't have an answer ready.

1:07:32That you should have an answer ready right away. Well, if I had been accused of something like that and I strongly believed that the elections were rigged, I'd be able to give you facts right away. But he can't. What was his facts? Rudy Giuliani and my pillow. Well, that's the thing is like, I don't know how much time he has to investigate the cases, right? So he has probably people telling him things and who are these people and what is their evidence? What's their information? I would, I would hope that if you have something that's so controversial, like you ran for president, you believe you should have won and they rigged it, you should have data that you could spit out at any cocktail party.

1:08:12But he's doing the same thing that you're talking about CNN and MSNBC do, which is just repeating the same thing. When people were standing in line voting a couple of weeks ago, he was saying the election was this election was rigged and poof. It must have, they've straightened it out because he won. But I don't, what he was saying was they were trying to rig the election. And I see facts that he had to back that on. Well, there's the one thing of bringing in people to the country illegally and then pushing for amnesty, which was they were doing. Well, yeah, I just don't know the numbers on it.

1:08:45I don't know, there's millions of people. If you think about the amount of people that came into the country, right? And you think about how some of these swing states, either cumulative votes was like 75 ,000 that switched it one way or another. And just you could imagine if you're bringing in millions and millions of people and you're moving them to swing states. Well, if that could do that. Yeah, if that's true. And the evidence against it was like, well, they're not all moving in swing states. Well, okay, you can't tell people where they can and can't move once they come to the United States.

1:09:10If they have family that's in Texas or if they have family that's in Arkansas or whatever, they're going to go over the fuck they want to go. But a significant number of them were in the country. If you're bringing in 10 million people, you have quite a bit of a buffer. It's not a perfect system. But if you're trying to let people in illegally and then give them not just protection, but also money, food, food stamps, housing, taking care of them, and then giving them an incentive to vote for the party that did that to them when the other party wants to, they want to round people up and mass deportations.

1:09:45Yeah, but putting party aside, what evidence did you see documentary evidence that people were registering to vote and how many of that? Well, it's not that they were registering to vote. The issue is that there's no voter ID, which is fucking insane. You need an ID for everything. Where is there no voter ID? Harris won some states that require voter ID contrary to online claims, fact check. So, oh, so there's an online chart that's incorrect that people are passing around. See, this is exactly what states that she win that have voter ID, which is again, there's certain like deep state, deep blue states.

1:10:24I hear you. Colorado and Rhode Island too. So is that two? Is that the two? Vice President also won New Hampshire, which requires voter ID, but allows individuals without one to either have their identity confirmed by a designated official or Philo and affidavit. Harris also won both Delaware and Virginia. So there's a couple states that she won that have voter ID. But these are like these deep blue states. Fair enough. Look, I don't know. I don't know the question is the swing states. I don't know enough about it. And I live in a world where I need the evidence. But backing up to the other election, look, if I'm just saying if there was one case where I was like, come on, man.

1:11:04You know what's weird about the one to 2020 that we keep going back to is the amount of people that voted. That's what's really crazy way more way more way more way more. And that's what to make of that. Well, it's the first time ever you have mail -in ballots that are usually bickered. You know, it wasn't a thing before mail -in ballots were essentially for people that were overseas. Well, I think I think COVID had a big part. Sure, it did, but also never, you know, miss an opportunity. And if you wanted to cheat, that would be the way to do it. And to try to keep voted mail -in ballots, keep voting by mail -in ballots when it's not necessary anymore.

1:11:38Well, it's not a pandemic. Sounds good. It seems crazy. It's us, but it's not a to me. I live in a world that you cannot say shit like that without backing it up. But listen, whether I don't, I have started to really veer away from having a strong political view and just putting my head down and doing what I can. So I don't, I mean, I don't see the evidence on the prior election. I see the claim repeated a lot. I just didn't see the evidence either. I don't see the evidence either, but I do see evidence that people are trying to make it easier for illegals to vote. That disturbs me. Yeah. The pathway to citizenship has always been kind of difficult.

1:12:20And when you talk to people that have done it the right way, it's very hard. They have to go up for review. They have to hope that this person decides that they're a person worthy of being in this country. And you had to be a person of extraordinary skill and talent where that talent and skill wasn't available in the United States. Listen, I recently moved out of New York to Florida. And I got my driver's license and registered to vote pretty quick after I moved there. My wife didn't. When we went to vote, they wouldn't let her vote because it hadn't been 30 days yet. So all I could say is that in Florida, they required an ID.

1:13:02And they didn't let my wife use it. Well, California literally passed a law where you're not allowed to ask for ID. Which is crazy. Yeah, it is crazy. That's crazy. Well, why would you do that? Andre Andre. Well, it would be the most charitable version of why you would do that. Yeah, Andre Warden, I've been discussing California quite a bit recently. And it seems like it's a little bananas to live in California right now. It's fucking crazy. It's not going to get better either. You know, a lot more people voted red in California. Have you seen the map of 2020 versus 2021? Yeah, I did. It's a giant significant shift.

1:13:45And if that keeps going, the state's going to go red. And I think if the state keeps falling apart, people are going to come to their senses and recognize that the policies that they have in place right now are fucking gross. They're gross. And you've got a bunch of bureaucrats that are profiting off of the home situation. They're taxing the fucking shit out of people. The state tax is 14. If you live in LA, it's another one. So you're 15 % of all your money just goes to incompetence. It's the same thing in New York City. I mean, you're giving to the state, to the city. You end up paying way more than if you make enough money.

1:14:21You end up paying way more. Here's the rub I don't get about Democrats. All right. This is the thing that bothers me about Democrats. And this is why I registered finally as an independent. We hear about the American dream a lot. The American dream. The American dream. I was a son of a teacher. And now I sound like a politician. I was a son of a teacher in a cell. Did you grow up in a class? What's that? Yeah, grow up middle class. I grew up middle class, right? And we had to grind it out and there were financial problems and everything else. So the American dream is to make it on your own to be self made.

1:14:57And then you get to that point and you get demonized for it. Now you need to give back in a way that how dare you not give more than half your effective salary. More than half your income if you live in California or New York. Right. You give it away. 52 % and 53 % and you end up feeling like, what the fuck? What did I do wrong? I give back in so many other ways. Here's my take on that. Yeah. If they were doing a great job and they were legitimately making people's lives better, I'd be fine with that. If there was a system where I had to pay 50 % because I make a lot of money and I had to pay 50 % but that 50 % was changing people's lives.

1:15:36They could show you all these success stories. It's like revolutionizing the way poor people are allowed to make it out of that situation and have a good life. You didn't feel that in California? No. I wasn't feeling it in New York going to the state courthouse. You feel bureaucracy. Yeah. You feel like corrupt politicians who are profiting off of narratives. And they're a bunch of dirty people who don't even follow their own fucking rules, particularly Gavin Newsom. It doesn't even follow his own rules. It's the guy that got busted in the middle of the pandemic where no mask indoors eating at the French laundry.

1:16:11It's all bullshit. It's all bullshit and the people felt really fucking prisoned by it. They felt really captured by their government and that's why a lot of people moved. He's got great hair. That guy. What is a great hair? Sort of version of what you would expect of a politician. What is great hair get you so far? Well, people want great hair. They want the good jeans tall and great hair. It means a lot to people. Yeah, I don't. I don't find. We're stupid. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of stupidity involved in why we choose things. You know, I read this article once about how there was a poll done of female voters when Bill Clinton ran the first time and they asked the reasons why and it was multiple choice.

1:17:00And one of them was that he was good looking and had a full head of hair. Yeah. They want to fuck them. Yeah. And apparently he wanted to fuck them. Yeah. He's great president though. I mean, in terms of policy, in terms of what differ the economy, guy was a great president. Well, great orator. I agree except for the fact that mass incarceration kind of started with him. Yes, the crime bill of 94. Yeah. So I think that our prison industrial complex started with Bill Clinton. Well, it was kicked off by Joe Biden. It was. It was hilarious. It was hilarious. It's just the guy running against all that.

1:17:37Yeah, it's all bullshit. You know, I don't. It was very interesting to me that this is playing out in real time with incoming president. And I have this parallel situation going on in Ohio. This is called a weave, weaving back to Ohio. And I want to tell you the rest of the story about the Ohio 4. So this guy, JD Tomlinson, is the prosecuting attorney in Lorraine. He's under indictment right now. He's got two months left. Like I said, he now knows, according to him, what it's like to be wrongfully accused of a crime. So watch this. You have these four guys who, so again, it's Al Cleveland, Lenworth Edwards, John Edwards, Benson Davis.

1:18:30Yeah, you got a light up for this one. So I told you, well, you may have seen your goes in, tries to get the reward money. They tell him, fuck off. It brings a son in the next day. They say to him, no dice. Then he comes back and says, okay, Al Cleveland told me he committed the murder. Comes time for their trials to begin. And they're going to all be tried separately. And William Avery Jr. gives this account of how this murder happened. And he says that he watches this woman martial Blakely get beat for 15 to 20 minutes inside of her apartment. And that, you know, the reason he, this woman gets beat is because Al Cleveland wanted him to work off a debt and beat her up.

1:19:21And he said, no. So then these four men bust in the door. And this is how the crime occurs. It comes time for the first trial of these four men. And William Avery Jr. shows up as the prosecution star witness. And he says, I want $10 ,000 to testify. He gave me two, I want 10 ,000. And the prosecutor said, we're not giving it to you. And he says that I'm not testifying. The judge throws him in jail. He's in jail. He is cool in his heels, as they say. And he says, you know, I made this whole thing up. And I did it for the money. And no one believes him. And the judge says, what are you talking about?

1:20:20You're going to get on the stand and testify. He says, no, I'm not. And now he's facing potential perjury charges. The judge declares a mistrial. He then comes back with a new story to the prosecutors and says he witnessed the beating. He witnessed other details of the crime. He then goes on to testify at all four of their trials. After the first mistrial, they all get convicted. He then fully recants of his own volition. He says he got off drugs. Says he wants to straighten out his life. He's in the process of cooperating with the FBI and the secret service. Now these exhibits are sitting in this folder.

1:21:10You go to Twitter. It's free the Ohio 4. Free the Ohio 4. There it is. And if you just click on that URL. Are there persons following? Well, zero followers? There was a reason because I didn't put it up until right before the episode. I'll only be your first person to follow it. So I'm going to get on right now and be the first person to follow it. If you click on that, it will bring you to a folder with this 40 -page submission that I put in today and references to all of the exhibits. So here, this is my first page. At the trials of Al Monday, that was his pseudonym. Al Cleveland pseudonym. At the trials of Al Monday and those charged with him, I testified under oath that I was an eyewitness to Alfred Cleveland who I knew as Monday, along with other people I knew as JR Will and Shaqim, who was John Edwards, beat Marshall Blakely at Floyd Epps apartment and then murder her behind Charlie's bar in the rain.

1:22:15All of this was a lie. I never witnessed the murder of Marshall Blakely was not with her or Al Cleveland the night she was murdered. I only done it for the money and everything was not true. The entire case was built on this man. There's no forensic evidence, no eyewitnesses, nothing. So this is not to be believed. What was the reason why they thought this woman and that other man were murdered? They didn't know. They had no theory. There's no connection to them. No connection to them. There was no theory like drug deal gone wrong. Oh, that was what they ended up coming up with was that she was a drug user.

1:22:58Al Cleveland was a drug dealer. It must have been drugs gone wrong. So something involving drugs gone wrong. So William Avery, Jr. is after they get convicted is working as an informant for the FBI and the secret service. Now prior to this case, maybe this is how obtuse I am. I thought that the secret services purview was the president. But apparently they have other investigative functions because he was working on some food stamp scheme as an informant. The secret service tells the FBI and the testimony is in that exhibit file. The secret service tells the FBI this guy, William Avery, Jr. He's not to be trusted.

1:23:44He's lying to us and he's lying to us for money. They contact the prosecutor. The FBI calls the prosecutor in Lorraine County and says this guy, William Avery, Jr. He used him as an informant in that case against these formant. He's a liar and he does this for money. So they end up getting Al Cleveland's lawyers, John Edwards lawyers, Len Worthhead, Words Bents and Dave. They end up getting an evidentiary hearing. And William Avery, Jr. comes to testify. And he's coming to testify that I made the whole thing up. And he's in very exquisite detail. His father, who obviously brought him there, threatened his life.

1:24:35He was sat him down and smoked crack with him to calm him down. He can't make this shit up. Wait till you read the affidavit. He sat him down and smoked crack with him to calm down and told him, I need that reward money for my drug habit. He was a fucking junkie. So he needs the reward money and he gets his son to go in there. And it's obvious if you watch the, if you read the interrogation in his testimony that he's being led, they show him pictures of the apartment where this woman was allegedly beat. He's getting details wrong. There, there, you know, he changed his story. He was telling conflicting versions of the story.

1:25:18So at these post -conviction hearings where these men should have all been exonerated, he gets on the stand and before he testifies the judge says to him, have you been advised, do you have an attorney? He said, I don't think I need an attorney. And he tells, well, you may have reached junior, well, you need an attorney. We're going to point you an attorney because you're about to purge yourself. Because you either did one of two things. You either lied and that put four men in prison or you're about to lie now. To set them free. Either way, you've lied under oath. Think about the mind, fuck of this.

1:26:01So this guy is coming to clearest conscience. And the judge threatens him with prosecution. So he gets in a pointed attorney. And they go and ask the prosecutor, will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth? They say no. His defense attorney asks the judge, will you give him immunity so he can tell the truth? And the judge says no. Oh, God. And they tell him, we're going to charge you with purgeery if you tell the truth. He walks out of the courthouse, okay? After pleading the fifth and is interviewed by the local paper walking out of the courthouse. That's in the exhibits. And he says, they're all innocent.

1:26:47I made the whole thing up. I've been trying to tell the truth here, but I can't go to jail for whatever time they're going to give me. So here you have a guy that is the son of a known junkie. He has been the prosecutors in this in Lorraine County have told, have been told by the FBI that he's not reliable, that he makes things up just to get money. He's been caught in lie after lie after lie. And now he comes and wants to tell the truth and set these men free. And the crazy and this judge puts him in the situation where he can't tell the truth or else he's going to get prosecuted. This is what happens in this country.

1:27:35This is the kind of thing that in these four men, two of them are out, two of them are serving life sentences. Al Cleveland's wife, Roberta Cleveland, saw this DA and he said he was going to do the right thing. He knew that the case was problematic. And now, because he's worried about his own indictment, he's not responding. So what we're asking for is your listeners to go through and read this very detailed submission that I've made along with the Ohio Innocence Project, the Ohio Public Defenders and a great attorney by the name of Kim Carral, who you actually had a good laugh over one time, oddly enough, because she was at the White House when Kanye West was there.

1:28:26She was like, apparently standing over and smiling and you were like, look at this fucking girl. She just thinks that like, how the fuck did I get here? She told me about it this morning. Did she feel that way? Like, how the fuck did I get here? She probably did. She's super cool. I spoke to her this morning. She's a badass. And she was like, I never met him, but he seems awesome. And he did have a good laugh at my expense when Kanye was in the White House. So, yeah, there she is. That's hard. You remember this? Kind of. Kind of. It's so funny, but she's kind of in the White House. I forgot that.

1:29:02She's awesome. But so we're asking your listeners to go and read the exhibits, read the submission, and then I have a contact page called JD Tomlinson, write him a letter. Look, these four men, thank you, Jamie, these four men certainly were drug dealers. Al Cleveland, we've established Al Cleveland's alibi. John Edwards alibi. Check this shit out. His alibi witness was Damon John from Shark Tank. He testified in his fucking trial at post -conviction hearings. Damon John back then was a hard scrabble New Yorker. He was doing whatever he could to grind out. This is before Fubu. And he was friends with Al Cleveland and Al needed to have a TV moved.

1:30:00And Damon had like a gypsy cab service, a car service in New York. You lived in New York, right? You remember what it was like? You call a cab service? Yeah. A car service. And he was with Al Cleveland the day of these murders. Al Cleveland saw his probation officer the day after the murders. People saw him all over New York when the murders happened. John Edwards was with his girlfriend, his girlfriend's family throughout the night. From like ten at night till three in the morning. His girlfriend was pissed off at him because he was flirting with some girl in the bar. So these guys have alibis.

1:30:39There is no question. They had absolutely nothing to do with this crime. This woman, Marshall Blakely, was murdered, right? Here's the one of the strangest facts in this case. She is seen all over town, all over town. At the time they claimed that this guy, William Avery, originally claimed she was murdered. She's seen by family members, friends. She's looking for a crack. She's walking down the street way after this guy claims it happened. How was she murdered? She was, the throat was cut and she was run over by a car. All right, so we've talked about tunnel vision before. And when the police think they have the guy, they had a problem on their hands.

1:31:23They couldn't solve the crime and they have these guys that are drug dealers in the area. So they become easy marks for this. There is a blade sitting in a diagram found right next to Marshall Blakely's body. They never tested it for D &A. They never collected it. They never tested it. It was at a time when DNA is the early 90s. DNA was around. Her roommate, Epps, Raymond Epps, is found a mile or two down the road with his throat slit and run over. Same thing. Same thing. No one's been charged. No one's been charged. It's an unsolved case as of this day. Why? Because they pinned it on these guys.

1:32:09Because they pinned it on these guys and this guy, William Avery Jr., only he came in with information about one of the murders. The cases were so clearly connected that the medical examiner pointed it out. These people were killed in the same way. Why there isn't an outrage, a fucking outrage about this case, is beyond me. When I got this case, I said, there is no way what you're telling me is true. That this guy has come and wants to clear his conscience and tells you exactly what happened. And the FBI told the prosecutors that he's a liar. And these guys are still, two of them are still serving life sentences.

1:32:52And when you have to live, stamp this murderer, even in the free world, how Cleveland is out and he's suffering. I mean, I had to listen to his wife heaving. She couldn't get a hold of herself because she went down to JD Tomlinson's office and said, you told me you were going to help.

1:33:20And he said, I can't now. I'm sorry. I've been indicted. The last time I exonerated someone, look what they did to me because he exonerated someone else and his political opponents attacked him. You know, human beings, we sometimes get in our own way because of outside forces. What we think other people are going to say, think, JD Tomlinson's been voted out. He's been wrongfully accused of a crime. It's time for him to say, you know what? I'm going to do the right thing. All I ask is actually a meeting with him. I want to meet with you between now and December 31st. Let me lay everything out for you as I have in this submission.

1:34:06He's now going to have it in his hands. He wouldn't answer my text messages. I'll give him a break. He was obviously going through some serious personal issues being under indictment, running for re -election. This is an easy thing. This is just doing the right thing. There is no way that you could look at this evidence. And this is why I think it's a good idea for rather than give a snapshot of a case and have to rely on some process with these conviction integrity. You know, it's behind closed doors where they run the re -investigation. I like the public being able to get invested and look at the evidence themselves.

1:34:52Everyone loves a true crime story. So why not, as part of this, let the public help make the case. And when they write a letter, they'll do it more forcefully, or they call him and say, how could you ignore this? So I would just encourage everyone to go on Twitter and go to free the Ohio 4 and look at the evidence. And if you ever, I've gotten so many reachouts, how can I make a difference? What can I do to make a difference? This is it. You can write. You can call. You know, his cell phone number is online because he was running for re -election. You know, let him know that the public is watching and expecting him to do the right thing.

1:35:40You know, that's the best use I feel like I can make of publicly advocating for change is to help bring in the public and give them a vested interest in trying to help. Well, this case is just an amazing example. Right? I mean, you said this is the craziest case you think you've ever heard. I don't think I've ever had a case ever where the soul alleged eyewitness, recants, and then is threatened with jail time is actually put in jail after trying to extort the prosecutors where there's no forensic evidence. And it was the most incomplete investigation I have ever seen. What would be the most logical thing to do if this guy says, you know what?

1:36:37There was a beating at this house. What would be the most logical thing for police to do? There was a beating inside this apartment for 15 to 20 minutes and this woman was brutally beaten. What are the police going to do first? Scan for evidence. Go to the apartment. They go to the apartment. Right. They don't spray it for Lumenall. They don't see if there's you, you know, Lumenall is a chemical agent that brings out hidden blood. You know, they do nothing. They go and do a scan of the apartment, a visual scan and see nothing out of order. They don't test that knife and this is was evidence that the woman was beaten.

1:37:21No evidence. Oh, there was evidence that she was beaten just not in that apartment. So she's beaten before she was stabbed. There was an eye witness that saw her that night with like a black eye begging for money for drugs. Oh. Okay. After he allegedly saw her killed. Oh. So it's, she was living a street life. Right. And she was, there was, you know, suspicion that she was trading sex for money so that she could feed her drug habit. So I just don't, I don't, I've never had a case where the FBI calls the prosecutor and says this guy is a liar. And he goes in for reward money and for financial gain and he can't be trusted.

1:38:07Never had a case where a judge says if you tell the truth, we're going to put you in jail. If you tell the truth, it's just as bad as putting these guys, you know, you either told a lie to put them in jail or you're now telling a lie to free them. I mean, I just don't get it. I just don't get it. I don't understand why, you know, in, in almost half of the cases where there has been an exoneration based on a sole eyewitnesses testimony, over half the people recant. And the courts are very critical of these recantations. So in other words, if someone makes up a story and then they come back and say, look, I made that up because my dad was threatening me because the police threatened me, that somehow viewed very, very critically.

1:39:04Whereas the initial alligator, it's really easy to put someone in jail, real easy, real difficult to get them out. So do you think that's because the system is set up to not reverse convictions because it's bad for the prosecutor's record. It's bad for the confidence of the judicial system like all of the above. Yeah. I mean, why did Kamala Harris block? Why did she block access to biological evidence from crime scenes? I think the rationale back then was, oh, well, it would lead to a flood of requests. So fucking what? Flood of requests from innocent people perhaps. Or people that want to, you know, maybe they're guilty and they want to take a shot.

1:39:50Who knows? Right. But isn't that worth the price of, of, you know, wrongfully incarcerating people? And, you know, why is, um, it's, it's, there's so much politics that gets wound up in this. I don't, you know, and, and for the life of me, I don't understand why, you know, it doesn't see the light of day more. I testified before the House Judiciary Committee in Florida in connection with the pro -mother case when their DNA was stolen. All right. Their DNA was stolen and they were wrongfully accused of a crime. I can lower a pro -mother. And I testified before the House Judiciary Committee that stealing someone's DNA as a private citizen should be a felony.

1:40:39All right. It was a misdemeanor. And, you know, it was one of my finer moments of oration, I think, because I got a 16 -O vote. And I had a really interesting discussion. It's recorded. I should find it in, in sanity sometime. But there were Republicans that asked me, hey, what is it that we can do to help you more? Because this story is crazy. And I said, well, there is, um, something that you can do as part of this bill. We would like to make it not only a felony, but give defense attorneys that have a good faith basis to believe that it's an alternative suspects DNA. The same right to collect that DNA as law enforcement.

1:41:32And if they make a showing to the court that they have a basis to believe that this is an alternative suspect. So I had a former police officer who was a member of the Judiciary Committee say, look, I was a cop. And we used to do it all the time. And his exact quote was, was good for the goose, is good for the gander. And I think if you could make a good faith showing, I want to support that. When it came time for the bill to go to the Senate, the guy that was sponsoring the bill, wasn't responding to me. I said, we got overwhelming support not only to get the bill, you know, made from a misdemeanor into a felony, but also to allow defense attorneys to be a good person.

1:42:20The knows that ultimately before the court, at the time of a state trial show was pretty good. So this is not thinking about, it's just you know, how to pushback to it. He just wasn't going to have that part of this bill. So, you know, I don't know what else you can do to push these issues, you know, other than get out there in the public and bang the drum about it and try to get people to pay attention. And this I think is a rare opportunity because it gives people, it allows them to invest in this. It allows them to see what the evidence is and actually, you know, write a letter and say, hey, I saw the testimony of the Secret Service Agent of this FBI agent under oath in these post -conviction proceedings.

1:43:27Why can't, how, what more would you need? You have the power to, to exonerate these guys in endless 30 -year -long nightmare for them. Why not do it? Yeah, why not? Well, I'm hoping that this is one of those cases where the people get activated and the way you lay it out is so crazy. I mean, and with more evidence online that people have access to, I'm sure there's a bunch of people are going to react to that. I'm curious to see what the response is going to be. Yeah, free the Ohio 4 at free the Ohio 4 on Twitter. And, you know, like, I'm not a big Twitter guy, or I can't say Twitter anymore. I'm not a big ex guy.

1:44:08Yeah. I'm not a Twitter. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess I should get more into it. Yeah, we did. We, we threw this up. Hopefully that that, that the numbers start going. Oh, they will. As soon as it gets published, I'm sure we'll get a chance to see. It's going to be interesting to see how many bots lock onto it. Yeah, and then it would be my, it would be my dream to one day have the Ohio 4 sitting here and have a toast. Yeah. Wow. What a story they have, huh? Yeah. Jesus Christ. And, you know, the sad part about it is is like, I hope that people don't say, well, there were drug dealers at the time.

1:44:49And, you know, again, that's not because you commit one crime doesn't mean that it doesn't mean your murder. Also, like, it's the circumstances are different for every fucking human being. And for you to think that there's no way that I would do a crime, especially a crime like that. Like, are you sure? Are you sure if you were in their shoes, if you live their life, you know, we all like to think that everybody's life is the same as ours. We only have one life that we can kind of reference. When we look at other people's lives, we kind of imagine what it would be like to live their life. We don't know.

1:45:26People do desperate things, desperate times, depending upon your environment, depending upon how you grew up, what your influences were, what trauma you experienced, whether you were incarcerated at a young age. No one has any understanding of that other than the people that get trapped into the system. They just don't. You know, it's tough on crime. Yes, I think it should be tough on crime. I think it should arrest criminals and evil people to do terrible things and make society awful. Yes, so do I. But also you should definitely not arrest innocent people. You should definitely not imprison them.

1:46:00And then punish someone who's trying to say, hey, the reason why these people are in jails, because I told them lie. Yeah, I mean, I don't get the threat of punishing them. And you know, you, I hope you have the type of influence and following that. Just listen to that perspective, folks, right? You know, I have in the last few years developed a way deeper understanding of how relative trauma can be from individual to individual. I did not realize trauma that I had suffered until I started to travel those roads. And then how it can impact behavior. So I'm trying to make better decisions about how I judge things because I don't want to say I don't make, I'm not judgmental, or all judgmental.

1:46:55Everyone's judgment. Yeah, you have to be able to tell you survived life. Right, I have to form judgments, but I'm trying to make more educated judgments, rather than judging someone based on, you know, not having a complete picture of what they had in my head been through. And also not being able to put myself as best I can behind their eyeballs or in their brain. It's hard unless you really make an investment. And I think the easy thing to do is to make a quick judgment and keep it moving. Yes. Right. And I think that words can be an excuse. The deep dive is too much of a time investment, too difficult.

1:47:39And I've had to understand behaviors that I never thought I would ever have to consider. And I can tell you at least in my experience, it forces you to become a more compassionate human being, a more understanding human being. You because if you're not just constantly trying to figure out more about yourself and others, what the fuck are we doing here? Right. What the fuck are we doing here? Yeah. Yeah. If you're not trying to figure out more about yourself, I mean, if you're the most enlightened person alive, tell us how you did it. You know, you don't have any searching to do anymore. Tell us what you did.

1:48:15Because I never met anybody like that. I can't thank you enough because again, it's a rare occurrence these days that to be unaffected by the outside noise. And I promise you, I'll do better in making sure that I'm a little bit more plugged into the help people are getting when they get out, whether they have done it or not. We've had two recent resentencing. One guy was paralyzed and blinded in prison. And he's in a wheelchair and he can't see. Part of the reason he was paralyzed was because of poor medical care that he was getting. It was a difficult decision to make initially because I said, shit, another resentencing, a guy that was found guilty.

1:49:12And then I saw the horrific medical treatment he was getting. And I said, you know, this just isn't right. You don't just throw out a human being like this. And what threat is he in a wheelchair blind? But, you know, I have to do a good job of making sure that people are getting the attention and care. They need to take resources and, you know, we're thankful to everybody that continues to reach out and support any of these causes. The Pearl Mudder Center, you know, the Midwest Innocence Project is a great one. The Ohio Innocence Project. Those are all satellite projects. But the Freedom Clinic at the Pearl Mudder Center, we've had some terrific folks, including the Pearl Mudder that have given us the resources we need to make a difference.

1:49:56So I just, I have your, you're in my, I'm in your debt. You're not. You're not. You're not. I appreciate you very much. And my thing about the outside noise is you should never put any effort or time or focus into something that has no net benefit. There's no benefit in the outside noise. It doesn't do that. Especially if you're an introspective person, if you're a person of things, everything you do is awesome. Maybe it's good to see people shit on you. Maybe it's good to see that some people don't like you. Maybe it's good. Maybe it's good to hear other people's perspectives kind of like you put your ego in check.

1:50:39But if you're a person that's introspective and I know you are, if you're a person that is hard on yourself when you make mistakes, no one's harder on me than me. I'm very hard on me. Oh, I know someone that's that's hard on themselves is you sitting across me. But it's, um, of course, correct. You know, if you, if you look inward and you don't like what you're doing or what you've said or who you are, don't do that again. One of the best things I did in the wake of this whole Sheldon Johnson incident is I turn comments off on Instagram and turn my account private. I think I'll make it public again after today because I want to generate support for the Ohio for.

1:51:24Um, and but turning comments off is a nice thing because you can't believe the good stuff or the bad stuff. Yes. Yes. Stay forward. Especially for people in the public. The good stuff you can get what they call audience capture. You know, you have enough people leaning you in a certain direction or giving you praise for a certain thing. Start doing more of that. You know, and this is a manipulative tactic that's used online, both foreign against people. Hey, man, look, when I was on my way over here today, uh, I was walking into the Uber and a guy at the hotel goes, I hope you're saying. And I said, yeah, I am.

1:52:06And it turns out that he went to high school with Rodney Reed who's on death row here in Texas. And I got into an interesting conversation with him. He's like, man, his older brother could pop and lock. I said, yeah, he goes, man, this motherfucker was popping and locking all the time. He's telling me about him break dancing. And he's like, no, for real, you know, shining the light on this stuff gives a lot of people out here hope. And I told him that, you know, I wrote a letter to the legislator here in Texas that's reconsidering that case. So it's just real cool, man, to get, um, to get people behind it that really care about this stuff.

1:52:51And, you know, the public can really help out. You don't have to be a lawyer. You don't have to be a psychologist. You don't have to be a therapist. You know, pressure does break pipes. So, we're reaching out to JD Tomlinson and they can noise between now and December 31. And as you said, talking about things on this podcast have actually generated people. Yeah, I thought this one was probably better off just me. Let me think real carefully about about the next. Yeah, Jamie and I were both talking about is he think he's going to bring somebody in. Fuck you certainly can. I mean, you definitely can.

1:53:30Hey, listen, next time around and if it's the Ohio for great. Hey, listen, the guys that have been on here are all thriving. Yeah, Bruce Brian, yeah, works at the Queen's Defenders office. He has not been without challenges. Trust me. But he's actually going, I'll leave you with this. Bruce is going to hope hope that parole lets him because we're still working on his full exoneration, even though he was granted clemency on the innocence claim. Bruce is going to Nairobi and Uganda to speak to prisoners there. Whoa. And he's a client advocate for the Queen's Defenders. Derek continues to be a whirlwind of positive activity.

1:54:15He's just a amazing he's getting people out left and right. Robert Johnson, who we had on is continuing to do amazing things down in New Orleans. And all of them are just thriving. They're doing well. And not enough attention is given to the happy endings, right? Then we give to the bad stuff. But of course, I mean, that's just how people are. Why is that? You know, with the principal, they're afraid of crime. Yeah. So they highlight the instances where things are bad and things do go bad. And they don't want to look at the disgusting aspects of the legal system. They want people want to live life through rose colored glasses and have this perspective that the bad people go to jail.

1:55:06But it's not just about crime. Most of the headlines that get the most clicks are about someone having a fucking affair. Somebody dying. Right. There's not a lot of triumph in news. Well, people like when other people's lives suck because it makes them not think about the suck of their own life. That's why they like it when a celebrity falls, like a P. Diddy gets arrested because they see these people living these lives. They could never imagine yachts and rolls, noises and all that and then they see them get taken down like yeah, because they were, you know, envious. And it's also like it's a part of our culture is to celebrate wealth in the most disgusting and extravagant ways.

1:55:49You know, like I mean, how many social media personalities have emerged just, just all about look at all the stuff I have, look at all the things I have, look at all the famous people on hang out with, look at all the girls, look at the yacht, look at the car, look at the jet, look at the this, look at all the things you can't cut. And when those people get got, people love it. You know, you know, folks are probably clamoring gets got. Who if that's the basis and I don't agree, who's that fucking guy's always got a shirt off? He's taking pictures on yachts and shoot a machine gun. Oh damn bills are earned.

1:56:29Oh man. I'd like to, I'd like to peek into his brain one day. Hmm. Yeah, it's probably like going on there. It's interesting how people do become famous for that though. It's like showing your stuff makes you famous. Showing the life that other people can't really imagine ever living. But think of the hypocrisy and the inner conflict and turmoil that that exposes. So in other words, we want people to fail that somehow innate in many of us. It makes us feel better about ourselves yet. You will have three million followers or ten or fifteen following someone that, and I'm not talking about that guy, whoever, who is clearly just selling their looks or their lifestyle or whatever it is.

1:57:23So yet we're drawn to it. And we want to watch it. And then when the person fails, we want to fucking devour them to the point where there are carcass laying in the street. Sure. Celebrity marriages and divorces. That's not the big one. Love it when celebrities get divorced. Haha. Haha. You're miserable too. Do you love it? No. No. People love it. I find it fascinating when people keep getting married and keep getting divorced. It's god damn how many times can Jay -Low get married for the next guy's like, hey, I don't know if this is going to work out. Yeah. Is it really been afflicked? That's a problem.

1:57:57Who's the problem? Well, he's certainly a problem as well. That guy, Mark Anthony, seems like a nice fucking guy. Seems like a sweetheart when she married a bunch of dudes. But you know, whatever. She's obviously a lot of work. That says you want to devour? Good luck. That requires a lot of work. I just want to understand it all. I just want to like me and my brother who sometimes go, what's it all about? It's definitely not all about caring whether or not Jay -Low gets divorced again. You know what I find difficult? I've been playing with this idea and something that I'm writing right now. And it couldn't be more oppression than right now is this notion of what the truth is.

1:58:43I don't know what like we had it happened to us right here. Are some of the swing states requiring ID or all of them? It's hard to keep a grasp on reality and the truth these days because there's information that is intravenously injected into your veins. It seems like so. I have a hard time knowing what's true anymore. Well, the news itself outright lies. It's not like a conversation like we have where Jamie checks it in real time. And I saw a thing that said the swings or the states that required no water or ID or the ones that she won. She won other ones as well. But when you have the news saying things, so they have researched it.

1:59:28They do know that it's a lie. This is not like a lie of conversation like we're having where I didn't know we were going to talk about that at all. Nor did you. It just spontaneously came up. These people are putting narratives out there that are just flat out lies and they're doing it all the time. I mean, Obama did it during the campaign where he repeated that lie about Donald Trump talking about white supremacists saying they're very fine people on both sides. So just a flat out lie. That was the the United right. What was all about the statue, the statues of civil war people being taken down and he's saying you I'm not talking literally said I'm not talking about white supremacists and the KKK they should be condemned.

2:00:16He said I'm talking about people that didn't say that in the same. Oh yeah. Oh, you can see it. So weird. Go to the JRE companion Instagram because on that page, there is what Obama said. And then on the same video, there is what Trump actually said. And it's disgusting. It's a disgusting lie. And it's a guy who is as and he's talking about George Washington. He said George Washington had slaves. He said Thomas Jefferson. We take down Thomas Jeff. Let's play it. So you can see it here. Then that there were very fine people on both sides of a white supremacist rally. And you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides.

2:01:07You had people in that group. Excuse me. Excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of to them a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name. George Washington was a slave owner. Was George Washington a slave owner? So will George Washington now lose his status? Are we going to take down? Excuse me. Are we going to take down or are we going to take down statues to George? How about Thomas Jefferson? What do you think of Thomas Jefferson? You like him? Okay. Good. Are we going to take down the statue?

2:01:46Because he was a major slave owner. Now we're going to take down his statue. So you know what? It's fine. You're changing history. You're changing culture. And you had people. And I'm not talking about the neo -Nazis and the white nationalists because they should be condemned totally. But you had many people in that group other than neo -Nazis and white nationalists. Okay. And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly. Now, see, see, see, that's crazy. I have never, I have never seen that last part of it. Yeah. So here, so here is my struggle with the truth unfold this but I've never seen that part because I news has said that lie over and over and over and over and over and meant that the news, the mainstream corporate controlled news that wanted this narrative that Donald Trump was a Nazi said that over and over and over again, they repeated it.

2:02:39They compared him up until the election. Joy Reed was literally comparing him to Stalin, Hitler, and Mussolini and spent a whole piece describing right wing dictators that he is going to be a right wing dictator, just like Hitler, just like Stalin. This is the lie of the media. So this is one of the reasons why it's so hard to tell the truth. It should be illegal to do that. It should be illegal to say that because it's not true. And you're changing the perspective of millions of people, especially low information voters that look at Obama like a thing from the past when time was sane when the world was normal, a brilliant guy who was the president.

2:03:26If this brilliant guy is willing to lie for in front of everybody. Yeah, but here's the thing. There's no question. They all lie. Yes. Trump included. We talked about that earlier. He lies also. That this is like the right, but did he lie about Biden? And what would Biden did? Did he lie about any of that? No. He's lied plenty. I'm sure for sure, but in the context of a campaign where you're completely distorting the perspective of the person you're running against, not just who they are, but what they've done and what they've said and what they stand for. He does the same thing though. But did he do that with Biden?

2:04:07I believe he did. How did he do it? I think that there were many times where he would accuse him of having created the problem at the border, that it was all his creation. People don't seem to remember that when Trump was president, his border policies of separating families at the border was not great. It was not great, but do you understand that Obama had those exact same policies? I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm just saying you can just distort it. It's just what they do with children when parents are arrested, they separate the families. It was that happened under Obama, but under Trump, it wasn't just separating the children.

2:04:53It was separating them for indefinite periods. Is there a difference in the way Obama handled it in the separation? I'm not going to speak to somebody. That's a problem. It's a problem if you're accusing of that. Here's the thing. I think they all lie. I didn't follow it closely enough to say they all lie too, but there's not a thing like that. Here's an point to where he was saying something about Biden that was factually incorrect. Here's the thing that turned me off completely about the election this time and why I said, fucking, I'm voting for Joe Stein, a physician that probably is the least qualified of anyone, only as like my form of saying I'll protest it.

2:05:30You know, Kamal Harris during the debate said that there's not a single, it was some remark that there's no single American soldier deployed and then I saw videos of American soldiers in a war zone watching it like a parallel reality. I said, what the fuck? What did you see Dan Crenshaw post about that? Where are we right now? They're in a fucking foxhole. Well, Dan Crenshaw posted all of the soldiers, all the numbers that we have that, see if you can find that post. It's on his Instagram in response to that. You know, Dan Crenshaw who lost his eye in war, who was Navy SEAL. He was the one that was circulating in the clip about of me being critical of her.

2:06:11Well, it's a good clip. Yeah, so I don't clip. I stand by it. Yeah, and you were correct. I mean, and then the crazy thing is you had a conversation with her about that. Yeah, well, it was on Zoom and she couldn't answer a question them and she can't answer a question now. She still refused to answer a fucking question. That was the most frustrating thing. I mean, how about saying, look, obviously what happened at the border is a crisis. It was not handled well. Here is what I planned to do different. It's outside of at least her capacity or willingness to do something like that. But it was also the complicit nature of that the media was in on it because they were fact checking Trump constantly.

2:07:00They didn't fact check her on that. Something that should be immediately fact check. Especially during a debate. I agree with that. How did you not know? How do you not know that you're either lying or you don't know that we have troops deployed in the war zone? Hey, listen, maybe you're right. Maybe it is that Trump repeats things that he heard that are moronic and nonsensical sometimes and that takes away from the great he can do. He definitely does that. He's like talking about people eating dogs and cats and the election being rigged. All sort of baseless shit takes away from the fact that you know the things that stick out to him and it's like galley your own way, bro.

2:07:37He pardon Jack Johnson. He pardoned one of my clients. I think that he has done more and cared more about criminal justice reform than certainly than any other president in my lifetime. No one ever wants to highlight the good things. Yeah. That that guy's that's why I just did it. Yeah. I just it's frustrating to me because it's like just don't listen to the last thing everyone told you because you can be great. You can I mean the fact that he does what he wants and says what he wants and gets elected. Look at this. This is what Dan Crenshaw responded with no US troops active combat zones question mark.

2:08:16How did ABC let Kamala get away with that during the debate. US sailors and Marines are fighting off Houthi attacks and Yemen over 3 ,400 troops are engaged in Iraq and Syria. We have forces in Western Africa battling terrorists just this year. Three US soldiers were killed and 40 injured and Jordan by an Iranian made drone nearly 1 ,000 troops are still deployed in Syria and 2 ,500 remaining Iraq under operation inherent resolve. So that's crazy. Yeah. It's crazy thing to say but it's also it just shows you how corrupt the relationship is between the media and what we get to see. It's corrupt.

2:08:56There's a bunch of people that had decided that they were going to fact check Trump continually and not fact check her and they were doing this because they wanted her to look better than him because they wanted her to win. Yeah I mean listen the most I have I have and this is why I mentioned you know it's hard to know what the truth is. Right. The reason why I posted all the exhibits. The reason why I put the letter up and the reason why I put the contact information up is that when when you have a transcript and you have you know actual documentary evidence that's hard to argue with. Right. It's not a sound bite.

2:09:36It's not a clip. So I feel like maybe part of what appeals to me about this work is trying to get closer to the truth. A truth that is a bit more provable. You know I would probably been very happy as a mathematician if I was any good at math I think at it but I think that there is it's very difficult to understand you know I feel like I'm sitting here and I feel manipulated by the fact that I never and it's really on me that I didn't go and watch the entirety of that comment. Right. Because I literally don't think I've ever listened to the part where he says obviously the neo -nazis and you know the people that were there for the wrong reasons need to be condemned.

2:10:24You know when I was watching recently I was talking to the great Dubini about this. He's he pointed out to me that comment about Liz Cheney. And then he's like go watch the full clip. Right. It's another one. And I watched the full clip and I was like it's in rage. This is so out of fucking context. So then you start to wonder how much is my opinion of him been formed by my concern about other people lashing out at me. I mean you should hear the shit I got when I when I spoke ill of Kamala Harris by you know I guess called them the left. You know when it was like infuriating to me you know so I don't a politics to me is too it's too much of you know you have to serve so many different interests that you sort of forget who you are.

2:11:25Yes. And what you stand for. So that's what turns me off about it. And you know I don't think that that'll change. That's why I sort of shifted to this is the most I've talked about politics in probably five years. But that's why I've shifted to let me just put my head down and get to work on what I can work on. Yes. Well I think that's very practical. And I think what you said is very important for people to understand that a lot of what people say they say it because they don't want people to attack them. They say it because they think that if they say it it will clear them. They'll be okay.

2:12:01If you say you support X you might not even support X but if you say you support X you're not going to get attacked and the right people will leave you alone or agree with you and appreciate you or praise you. Thank you for saying that. There's a lot of that out there. There's a lot of people that don't speak their mind. Do you know many artists that have reached out to me that are like fucking hippies man like like artists like musicians, comedians that thanked me for endorsing Trump because they can't do it. They said they want to but they don't want to be attacked. They can't say it. They think the country is going in the wrong direction.

2:12:38They think that this control of social media by the government which we would have had pretty much fully if it wasn't for Elon buying Twitter. This is a dangerous precedent to set whether it's a right wing government or a left wing government and that what you see that's happening in the UK where people are being imprisoned for tweets and Facebook posts. Yeah and the UK is the part that's mind bending about it. Mind bending. The whole thing is nuts and it's a dangerous path that we were on. We were on that path. Trump has vowed to have free speech become a very important part of what he's standing for and that this censoring of information needs to stop and that we need to stop all government influence in what people have to say.

2:13:26Yeah look I know that alone. That's so that shouldn't be as revolutionary as it is. I know it should be a core tenant of what I mean it's essentially the first amendment. You know what I and I think it's so transferable to what I do in this context because a lot of the reluctance of prosecutors not to do the right thing or what their conscious tells them is the fear of the backlash. Yes. How will it hurt my chances in a real election? Of course. And so that's what I hate about politics is you serve so many masters. And it's a dirty business. It's a dirty and you got to have you got to have nuts of steel.

2:14:07Or you have to be a fucking sociopath. It's either or you know you have to be a blindly ambitious sociopathic and weave your way through these sort of social and political relationships and to get to the top for what? Yeah. I mean imagine if one of those person does wind up becoming president that has no real thought or no real care about the country, no real ambition other than the the blind serving of their own success. Well I think that that's what for people that are so like it's hard to explain if you didn't live in New York. For people that are just like oh my god what's the next four years going to be like and you know what like it like it's a funeral like get up and do something all four years that you think is going to help make society better.

2:15:03You do that. Whether it's getting out and knocking on doors and making your for whatever you're passionate about. Not just one in an election that's coming up but get out and knock on doors. Get out and get involved in some organization that you believe in. Do something that you think will help lend itself to bettering society in some way. What happens is every four years there's this polarization and people get on one side or the other and they complain and bitch and then they wallow in it too often for too long a time. I think that the people that actually make the most change happen are the ones that can sit and talk with people that might have different beliefs than them and don't make them other than.

2:15:50Absolutely. Right. I mean anytime I've made an emotional decision in business personally it's never gone well for me. Right. So people are going to have different points of view than you. I was talking to my cousin about it and I was trying to help her explain that just because you voted for Trump that doesn't make you better. I said you know her whole thing was well if you have daughters there's no way you can vote for him. I said here's the fundamental flaw in how you're looking at this. There are some people that are pro life. Okay. That doesn't make them wrong. That makes you have a different opinion than them.

2:16:32You have a disagreement and if the basis of your vote is that your pro choice and their pro life okay have a disagreement. I just don't understand how a singular issue like that and I understand that. Listen. I understand it from a woman's perspective. I'm a father of two daughters. Yeah. I talk to my wife about it often especially going to Florida where the laws on abortion eat the same as they are in New York. I understand it from a woman's perspective completely and I actually disagree with you know overturning Roe versus Wade but you cannot be that myopic. You just can't because if you're that myopic you're going to then find yourself in a corner on one issue and life is a little bit more robust than that isn't it?

2:17:29It's more nuanced. Yeah. Yeah. That was the better word. Yeah. It is more nuanced. Well listen my brother. I love you to death. I appreciate what you do. I think the world's a better place because of what you do. I really do and I think you've changed a lot of people's perspective on the legal system and I'm glad that we didn't let what happened with Sheldon change that and I think there's just so much more great work to be done. Well my continued profound gratitude to continuing to let me tell these stories. I promise the next time I bring a guest on they will be well they will be they will be vetted.

2:18:09Yeah. The guests will be vetted a lot more thoroughly. You know there's no way you could have known. There's no way I could have known and you know it's interesting because I was for 48 hours I felt what it was like I felt what it was like to be a headline and then I was like this sucks for the wrong reasons. It was like I know you were in a dark place but I'm glad you got out of it. Yeah and it's not about me. It's time. Yeah. And I just I'm really really really appreciative of of this and you know if that can't shake the foundation of this forum I think we're going to just keep on making great change happen and hopefully we we free the Ohio 4 and keep on moving.

2:18:58Yeah and I hope we do do a podcast one day with them. He loved me. He loved you too. Goodbye everybody.