#2245 - Rod Blagojevich

25:00They've corrupted the Department of Justice and the FBI, and they've corrupted the rule of law and the Constitution, and this is no small thing. And just because Trump won, because the American people are beginning to get it, doesn't mean we're safe. The Trump administration, God willing, is going to do something very serious about this. So there's anything that this administration can do to make America great again, is to protect our rights and our freedoms, and to hold the people that do this accountable, and make an example of them, not to be vengeful, but because it's just, and because it sends a message to these unaccountable prosecutors who have no check in ballots, that if they do this, and frame innocent people, they're gonna be treated the same way as a dirty cop of plants of murder weapon to frame an innocent man.

25:43As they should be. Look at this guy, Andrew Oysman, on CNN. It's got a big spot at CNN, the legal expert. You ever see this guy? No. Anyway, he was a former US attorney, and he made his name by destroying Arthur Anderson, a company that had all these people working for him in a county company nationwide, one of the biggest county firms in America. He used a standard that wasn't lawful to get convictions on them. Eventually, the United States Supreme Court took the case, and they ruled nine to nothing, unanimous, that the standard that Weissman used to prosecute Arthur Anderson was an unlawful standard.

26:15But the damage was done that company went bankrupt. All those people lost their jobs and this Andrew Weissman gets promoted and becomes this legal expert in scholar on CNN. That guy fits Gerald, Comey and people who do this. Jack Smith, Elvin Bragg, Latisha James, they ought to go right to fucking jail. What was what were they accusing this company of? obstruction of justice, that they were destroying records and stuff. And that would have been a crime had they done it after they'd been subpoenaed, but they weren't subpoenaed. They had a right to do whatever they wanted with their records before anybody compelled them to produce them.

26:55It was a obstruction of justice. And what was the accusation? Like what were they trying to get them on? Saying that they were destroying documents and evidence about what though. about the iconic work for Enron, which was a real scandal. Yeah. Yeah. I saw the smartest men in the room. Yep. That documentary, like, shoots. Anyway, who doesn't believe in conspiracies? Watch that. Jeff's killing was in the prison with me. Oh, really? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, he got a big sense, and then eventually they found Procestral wrongdoing, and he was able to reduce it down from something like 26 years to 14. But he was there with me.

27:33I mean, a lot with smelly and socks and Mr. B and V and G and all kinds of things. I mean, you've got a lot of characters. All kinds of writing a book about it. You know, it's a story that starts with one present and that's with another. And there's a governor prison with gangster disciples, seen a low cartel drug, these are pedophiles. That's why I met the tell you. I was in there with some like 400 pedophiles, murderers, bank robbers. What do they do with the pedophiles in jail? They're a protected class in prison because everybody would fuck them up because of the nature of a lot of their crimes.

28:02Some of them are worse than others. Some are like this guy that got pardoned by Biden, which is unbelievable. Whether in the child pornography, but some were far worse than that. They harmed children. So how do they protect these people? You get more than canceled if you even say something bad to them. You can't offend them. you can't call them a name. What? That's the way of policing the other inmates who hate them and resent them. Really? So they're protected. Yes. The thing that people always loved about pedophiles going to jail is like, oh, there's going to be some jail justice. Well there is, notwithstanding their policy, the BLP's policy, the guy that was Jared, the guy, subway guy.

28:52He ended up going to the same prison I was and after I worked my way out of the that higher security prison, the one behind the Burb Wired fence and got to a camp, Jared got to my prison because it's a pedophile. It's a prison that has a lot of pedophiles. Out of the 950 guys roughly that I was in prison with there, there were about three to 400 pedophiles and then there were drug dealers, bank robbers, some guys who committed murder. There were or 2 % white collar, skilling one of them, one governor of me, right? But those pedophiles, the sex offenders, you can't call them pedophiles. And the derogatory term.

29:27You don't allow them to call them pedophiles? Can't call them pedophiles, you can't call them chomos. That's the inside prison name for these guys. It's a chomo. Chomo. So mom, they're day two in prison. I got 14 years ahead of me. They gave me a 14 -year sentence. I mean, Trump pulled me out of there after eight. And I'm in there a second day. It gets you to imagine, I write about this in the book. It makes a hard experience, a long hard journey. It's heartbreaking in so many ways for me and my family and the hard. But you know, I'm learning the ropes on my fellow inmates there. And I'm hearing this phrase, this term called, you know, Chomo's fucking Chomo.

30:07You know, that guy, you know, he's a Chomo. They'd say that and I'd say, what's that? And they would, they'd told me. And so I was with one of my, uh, this episode is brought to you by Life Lock. Tax season is already stressful. You shouldn't have to worry about identity theft on top of everything else. And trust me, it's a big worry. Especially since during tax season, your sensitive info does a lot of traveling to places you can't control. It goes through payroll, your accountant, or your tax consultant, and countless other data centers on its way to the IRS. any of them can expose you to identity theft because they all have the info on your W2 just the ticket for criminals to steal your identity.

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31:36Terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Buffalo Trace Distillery. Actually have some Buffalo Trace cigars here. They just sent me. One of the world's most award -winning distilleries that's been making whiskey the same way for more than 200 years made as a tribute to the rugged free spirited pioneers who blaze their own trail to new frontiers. It embodies the perfectly untamed spirit of independence. It defines what an award -winning bourbon should be. Age nearly twice as long as competitors in new, charred, white oak barrels and bottled at 90 proof Buffalo Trace is the perfect bourbon to be enjoyed in any way, anywhere, and the taste, it's damn good.

32:26It's bold and sophisticated yet incredibly smooth, finishing long and deep. It's authentically American, representing uncompromising quality for the rugged, the powerful, and the passionate. Tap the banner to learn more or visit buffalotracedistillery .com. That's Buffalo Trace Distillery .com Distilled, aged and bottled by Buffalo Trace Distillery, 90 proof Franklin County, Kentucky, Buffalo Trace, American family -owned, independent and perfectly untamed. The case manager or somebody, they were giving me more of the information I needed for the stuff I had to learn as a new inmate and I mentioned so who are these two moes?

33:14and she goes, you can't say that. It's not tumo, it's she whispered, it's tumo. You can't say that. That's strictly forbidden here. If you say that, you'll go to the shoe. Now, so what's that? I have to ask her. Well, the shoe was a special housing unit. SHU, the vernacular was shoe, solitary confinement. And the way they police the inmates and punish them to varying degrees is you get thrown in solitary confinement. So if you just say Cholmau, that'll land in solitary confinement. How long? Maybe a week. Shes. Yeah. That's so, how? Yeah. That's so crazy that they protect pedophiles. Yeah. Now, I don't want to sound like I'm a too liberal or something, but they have to.

34:05Because if left are their own devices, these guys we get so fucked up by the general population who are outraged by their crimes, and are also outraged by the fact that a lot of them, a lot of them, got special treatment in their sentencing. So you see this guy that Biden just pardoned, who gave clemency to, let's hope it was just clemency, not a pardon, my God. But these sex offenders are getting lighter sentences than the drug dealers or the bank robbers. And if you look at a system of punishment that's supposed to be just and fair, hopefully always tempered with mercy, you'd like to think that there's equal application of the law and that there's some sort of fairness and that when you measure the victims of the certain crimes, that that should be a part of the sentence thing.

34:50So drug dealers would argue a lot of it not violent and are right. Their stuff was nonviolent. These guys really harmed children. The ones that touch children, not the ones who just looked at the pornography. How did they justify you being in this high security prison? Like why would they put you in with pedophiles and murderers and gangbangers? Why would they do that? Obviously, it's squeezy, but how do they pass that through? You get, anybody who gets a sentence of over 10 years has to do time and you can't be in a camp. So, and if any, certain people can't be in camps, for example, any kind of violent a fendr cannot be in a camp.

35:32Petaphiles cannot be in a camp. That's good. Camps don't have fences. There's not iron gates that lock you in. I mean, I went from a 50 ,000 square foot governor's mansion to a six foot by eight foot prison cell. I mean, it's real prison like in the movies. Those iron gates shut you in, you know, and you're restricted in your movements. And you're with some badass guys, you know. I mean, interesting guys, and I met a lot of guys I really liked. But they did it because they purposely gave me a sentence above 10 years to force me to go into a shit hole prison and to try to not just squeeze me, but to punish me.

36:09And the punishment was because I had the temerity to fight back. You know, who is this guy? He was only twice elected governor of the fifth largest state to challenge us. And I fought back. And, you know, frankly, the beauty of it is that had I not fought back the way I did. And Trump would have never known me. He saw me on television fighting back. I mean, I fought back in ways that predated him the way he does. And it wasn't by design. It was just I felt like Jesus, I didn't do anything wrong and they know it. This is politics. And you know, this is wrong, bad for our country. I can't give into this.

36:43And by the way, if I'm right, they are criminals. I have to fight back. And so I was on all these TV shows, everything. And Trump saw me in the David Letterman show, I think. And by the way, when they do this to you and they arrest you like they did. They arrested me at six o 'clock in the morning in my house and It was a super sensational press conference. It was international news back then in December of 2008 There were two assholes and the two biggest assholes in the world were me and Bernie made off because they arrested him like a day or two after me I remember this and And it was you know, I just had to fight back and so I was and but you can't make a living you You have they threw me out of office and you learn who your friends are in politics and not a single one of them You know, they all ran for the hills to protect themselves.

37:28They all voted to throw you out and Because the politics of it was was Bad at that time. But that's a time where podcasts would have come in handy. Yes Imagine you can go on a podcast and just lay out the whole case and exactly what's going on and even play tapes It would can't play tapes. I'll tell you why I could never because they were recorded because they put a course seal on it They arrested me. They play me saying this is fucking gold and I give it enough for nothing, but they don't play what comes after it. Right. Right. If it says I want a hundred million dollars in a Swiss bank account, which by the way, the current governor of Pritzker would called me to ask me to make him Senator because he inherited a billion dollars.

38:04That's the one you'd sell it to. But if I said that, that would be a crime, but there was none of that. They covered that up. So they go to court a couple of days after I'm arrested and they go before their judge and they get a sealed order. They put a gag on it. So the tapes cannot be played publicly in court and I can't talk about what's on those tapes. Unless it comes from my independent recollection. I can't release them. So you can't talk about what's on those tapes unless it comes from your own personal recollection. So you can talk about the tapes. You just can't play them. Correct. And you can't quote them.

38:39I can quote what I remember personally and I remember for some of it of course. But at least you could have laid out your version of it so people could hear it. Correct. And it would put pressure on them. And I was doing it, not on podcasts, but I was doing it on the today's show, Good Morning America, CBS Morning, Nightline, Dayline all the shows. The problem with all the shows is there's such a short segment. That's right, exactly. You don't have enough time to lay out the environment, how it works, what really goes on in politics, how, what's normal for how these deals are made? Well said yes exactly right so this person that Obama wanted whatever happened to that person she became Like a top advisor for Obama in the White House Now there's a school of thought there's a theory that makes that's plausible Obama publicly said he did not send this labor guy to me But ballin off the the emissary in two trials testified twice under oath that he that Obama called it Obama then was interviewed by the FBI the day or two after I was arrested and And if you lie to the FBI, they call them three or two of these interviews.

39:43It's a crime. But I've learned that the FBI is really the FBI lie. And you sit down like I did stupidly. You talk to these people. They say you lied and you say they lied. Who are you going to believe if you're a jury, right? It's a big mistake to ever trust them to be honest. So my advice to anybody out there is getting chased by the FBI. I don't talk to them. And I thought they were the good guys. So I sat down and talked to them. Well Obama talked to them. And every defendant is entitled to relevant evidence that could help him or her defend themselves against criminal prosecution. But to this day they would never give us Obama's 302's.

40:18So did Obama really send this guy, like that guy testified to, or did Obama not do it like he publicly said he did? He said he didn't do it. So somebody's lying. Somebody broke a law. Either Balenov's lying, a person himself, two trials, or Obama is lying on those FBI I -302s or he lied, which is a crime or he lied to the public, which I'll too often politicians do all the time in Obamac, one of them who does it a lot. He does it a lot. Ballin off this guy, what would be his motivation for saying that Obamac wanted you to do that? The theory is among a lot of political insiders who know how it works that he was an emissary for Rama manual who became Obamac chief of staff.

41:02It was a member of Congress. I had a pretty good relationship with him. He's all over the FBI tapes with me. And so that Obama never said anything about it, but Rama Manual said something to him. Rama Manual asked him to do it and instructed him to tell him that Barack himself had asked him to come. It's just a theory. A theory. And the theory is plausible in that what would be the motivation for Rama to do that was that as the new chief of staff with Obama and in the power game of politics, which is something he knows real well, and I know is people want to be close to the king. And Jared Valerie, Jared was Michelle Obama's best friend.

41:41And she was a threat to the influence of of Ram and others. And if you get her kicked upstairs to the US Senate, she won't be in Ram's way to have more of a voice and more say in Obama in the direction of Obama's administration. Now this is a theory. It's a theory. Interesting theory. So what's day one like in prison? I write about that in detail in my book. It's like chapter three or chapter four. Have you published this book yet? No, it's coming out. It's going to come out. I hope by spring. I hope I get it done. I'm almost done. You have a publisher? So it's interesting the politics of publishing companies.

42:19I've pre -sold about over 8 ,000 already haven't even put it off for pre -sale yet I'm about to do it. Black O something books, Rod Black O books or something. I haven't done it yet but But I've pre -sold some to people you know friends and others About 8 ,000 already. So it's helped me be able to like self -publish and create my own little publishing company And the reason I've compelled to do it is because I've gone to somebody new year of publishing houses and they are so anti -Trump If you say something nice about Trump and he comes across really well in my book, I was on his show. He was great to me.

42:52He's a kind guy. I'll tell you stories about him if you want. He pulled me out of there. Ha, you know, I loved Donald Trump for a lot of reasons. Of course, because he gave my daughter his father back. So I write well about him. He comes across very well. Obama doesn't come across so good. He doesn't come across as evil, but he comes across a very selfish, very calculating politician who missed an opportunity to be a great president that divided our country and who's a snake and an injured and who sold out his Frentonio Resco who bought him a lot. This guy bought him a lot next to a mansion that he bought after he was elected the United States Senate.

43:26Obama's at that time only had $750 ,000 they could afford for a mansion. They wanted to buy the adjoining lot and this real upper -class neighborhood called Cannedwood, high -park neighborhood in Chicago by Obama's library. And they didn't they couldn't afford the other a lot so they don't he went to his friend rescue Obama did and rest goes a kindhearted person and he wants to help his friend Obama So he pays like seven he pays the list price like $750 ,000 for the lot the Obama's paid less for the lot with the improvement on it the big mansion Obama now is running for president That comes out.

44:01He's got to fix his political problem. He goes to rescue So, and he says, I got to put a fence between the lot and the mansion. So I could explain to the media that it's your lot, not mine, right? And he prefers, he asks for a rot iron fence, not just any old fence, not a chain link fence. He wants a rot iron fence because it matches the mansion. And then he has rescue bill for $13 ,000 for the rot iron fence. And then when rescue suffers for three years in solitary confinement, because he won't lie about Obama or me, he sends a letter to the federal sentencing judge saying they're squeezing them to say stuff about both of us.

44:38Makes the front page of the Chicago Tribune in August 2008 that he won't do it. They put him in solitary confinement for three years. For three years, he saw the sun one hour a day. And then when he got out of there, he tries to do a burp peep and he faints because he's so skinny and so weak after three years of that. And this fucking Obama did nothing to help him. Jesus. It's unbelievable. So opposite of the kind of guy Trump is. I mean, I didn't do anything for Trump, but he helped me. He just saw something wrong. And I think he kind of liked me. That's a liberty of promise. He liked the way I was fighting back.

45:10I know that. But he fired me on that show and freed me from prison. He's historic. He fired and freed the same guy even Lincoln didn't do that. Day one. Do you have hope it's going to be overturned in an appeal? What are you thinking when you get in there? Yeah. Boy, that's a great question. And look, the hardest period during this whole thing was the months after the conviction to the day that you surrender, because now you know you're going away. And you're fearful it's going to be long. In fact, a couple of months before the sentence came down, I'm jogging, I'm running through the neighborhood and I see it.

45:45That was newspaper's back then. It's a newspaper box, front page, a big color picture of me. I see it. I'm running past it. I saw the headline briefly. I came back running in place. I see it. 30 years to life. The prosecutors are asking for 30 years to life on me. Life. Yeah. Jesus. I never took a penny. They don't even say I took a penny. It was all talk about politics. So, you know, I got home faster. That sort of stuff quickens your space a little bit, you know. Yeah. But that period was the hardest. The moment I stepped into prison, I write in my book, that one advantage of crossing the threshold in the prison was that with every now, with every tick of the clock, you're one second closer to this nightmare, this Kafka's nightmare, finally being over, one second closer to coming home to your daughters and to your wife, even though it might be 14 years.

46:36And one last second, you know what I mean, but you're at least it's starting now. You know, you've hit that bottom and now you're trying to climb a backup just from a time point of view. But that first day, I'll work backwards. I'll never forget the first night. After that long, long day that I that I went through, you know, the media was covering me like I was O .J. Simpson. They were at my house at six five thirty the morning when I kissed my little girls goodbye. My little Annie, Bonanio was eight years old at the time she's in her pajamas. She hugs and squeezes me. And my daughter Amy, she was a sophomore in high school.

47:08She was 15. And we're all in the four years. It's all dark because she got all these media trucks around your house, we live in a neighborhood, a normal neighborhood, just not gated, and they're all over the place. And so they look into your house, so we had to keep the lights off. Kissed my wife goodbye, my two daughters. The hardest thing I've ever do, did was sing a bite of them, but you had to be strong for them. And you can't, you can't show those assholes in the media that you're dying at sites. You got to be strong when you step out. So it's all kinds of film footage of them when I look.

47:38And that is a helicopter that follows me. The news helicopter from my house, all the way to Harry Airport in Chicago. Like I was OJ Simpson in that white Bronco. I called the chapter of my white Bronco moment. And then when I got on the airport, there was this big gag of the media there. And then when I get on the plane, these motherfuckers are on the plane, they bought tickets. So I can't even like, you know, give it a second to think about what just happened. He's saying goodbye to my family. And I'll be gone for a worst case scenario 14 years. But if I behave myself, it'll be 12 and a half years, right?

48:10good behavior. And then I landed in Denver and they're there. And so I'm trying to leave the plane. They're all waiting there at the gate. And then the people in Denver were really nice at the airline. I think it was United Airlines. And they got me out of side door and they had a car waiting. So I was able to leave. And for a moment, I thought I was away from the media as I'm about to drive to prison. But no, they caught us. They caught up with this. And I got there a little bit early, the prison, so I told one of my lawyers who was driving me, you know what, we're like a half an hour early. I'm already given them 14 years.

48:46I don't want to give them 30 minutes more. Let's stop for a cup of coffee or something. So we went to this little restaurant, a little fast -root place called Freddy's in Denver, the Denver area, little in Colorado. And it was really surreal because you know, people knew who I was and they were really warm and loving. I'm signing autographs.

49:06You to walk in and I learned later that Trump was watching this because it was all live on television and he tweeted about it that day. I mean I got a million reasons why I love Donald Trump. I was so alone. Everybody had prominence in politics and government and in the media you know we're calling me all these nasty things and here's Trump the only guy who had like like some authority and out of following. It was the only guy saying like positive things about me. They were compassionate. He wasn't necessarily saying, he was saying that I denied it and I was, you know, I'm entitled to a presumption of innocence.

49:44But there was compassion with Trump and he tweets that day. You know, I learned later, I didn't know what then, but I learned when I came home, that he tweeted that I see him walking into prison against 14 years, murders and rapists, get four years. Do you think this is justice? I don't. Just a loyal guy to a guy that was on his show, because I don't really know him that well. But to me, he says a lot about who he is as a person. But then I walked in and I get greeted by all these inmates. And people asked me, were you afraid? I wasn't afraid of anything. My life was so beaten down by what they did.

50:18I was so disillusioned. I was angry. There was bitterness. But I was mostly heartbroken and sad. And missing my children, fearful my children, my wife, they were left alone. I couldn't protect them. People knew where we live. the media made sure that everybody saw what we looked because they were always in front of our house. I was worried about their safety. I knew I had all those years to do and now I'm in prison and all these guys are watching me coming into their world on live television. So I had two things going for me in terms of my stock with the fellow inmates. Number one, I was a quasi sort of a sort of a celebrity inmate.

50:55They just saw me coming to the prison. Nobody gets walks into prison lie to you. And the bigger more part, the more important part was, I got to, what they call a 14 piece. That's the vernacular of how inmates talk. He got a 14 piece. Means he didn't snitch on anybody. See, anybody who gets a long sentence, means they're getting punished because they wouldn't talk about anybody. The guys who walk in with light sentences become immediately suspect by the inmates. It's the culture there as snitches. And they hate the snitches. Snitches are bitches who get stitches. right? That's what they said. Sure.

51:27So I walked in there and I had a media street cred with those guys and they were nice to me. They actually gathered together what little beans they had and went to the commissary to get me necessities for my first week to the brush toothpaste, shower shoes, just a very nice kind thing to you know me. These were drug dealers and bank robbers and you know tough guys. All tied up tough guys. You know their gangs would be tatted on their heads and stuff or on their, you know, biceps. You just joined a gang? I write about how the crucial officers wanted me to actually join the white group, the Aryan Brotherhood guys.

52:06The correctional officer. Why did they want you to do it? So in this, one of the chapters, the early chapters, it's, I wasn't in prison for 27 hours before I broke my first prison rule. and they called me in Maple Grove, it's, you know, the reported lieutenant's office. And I had to be explained to me, this was my first full day, there was a, my second day there, it was after my first full day, when I walked in, and I got a chance to see the prison yard, and I walked around the yard with a couple of black guys, one of both from Illinois, one from the Southside of Chicago, Gang Banger Drug Dealers, they were slim, another guy named Walter Hill from East St.

52:47Louis, Illinois. And I was their governor, and they were really nice to me. And we walked around the track, and we were talking about, and I was interested in the facilities. One of the things I was determined to do in prison was to work out a lot and to read a lot. And eventually I read the Bible a lot, if you want to talk about that at some point, because that was so meaningful to me. But they called me in the next day because the word got out that I was walking the track with black eyes and it was explained to me by the authorities there that prisons are very segregated place that the unwritten policy in order to keep order is that people need to be part of their own cars.

53:26They called it the euphemism for gangs in prison as cars, what car do you ride with? Ride in. And that they thought that from my own safety, that number one I shouldn't be walking around with black eyes, I need to be part of a car And I need to join the white car and go see these two guys Cole and sadness Sadness and Nest his name was I thought it was sadness, too Exactly because I'm looking around who said who said this? I'm looking for sadness, right? His name was sand and nest and Cole was the leader. I think he was from Texas and They so they told me that I should go see them. It's not a respect for the cut the police officers the correctional officers I said okay, I'll go see him, but I made it clear to them listen I don't give a fuck because they told me look when you get into a conflict with somebody and it's inevitable Because you're in prison with a bunch of guys for a long time.

54:15It's gonna be all kinds of disputes You want the window open the other guy wants it closed You didn't put the weight back in the weight room like he would have wanted there's all kinds of shit It's gonna have the conflicts that develop between guys living close like that The way we keep order is we keep the races and the and the different ethnic groups separated. They all become part of their individual cars. You sit with them in a commissary. I mean at the cafeteria they call it the chow hall. You work out with them. You walk the track with them. You polite to the other groups but you don't really get friendly with them because if you have a conflict with somebody your car will protect you especially if it becomes a conflict with somebody from another race or another group of people.

54:56In the prison I was in there were a lot of black guys, a lot of Latinos, a lot of guys from Mexico, I've seen a lot of drug cartel people, a lot of Native Americans, there were Pacific Islanders, and of course white guys and sex offenders, they were their own group. And so they all pretty much rode in their own cars, they're separate cars. But I told them, I'm not, look, I don't fear anybody, if somebody wants to fucking kill me here, in some ways they put me out of my misery, I'm not going to be doing some kind of thing like that. It's racist, I'm not doing that. I'm going to, whoever's nice to me, I'm going to be nice to them.

55:31And I'll respect your rules. I won't sit with the black guys or with any Latino guys. I'll sit with the white guys. But I'm not going to, I'm not sure ordering me to tell me, and telling me, I can't walk with those guys or talk to these guys. I'm going to keep doing it. And they say, well, we can't do that because this is an unwritten way that we operate and keep order in prison. And then they told me something which I respected. They said, look, you're not in the real world here anymore. This is not a place where you could be a civil rights advocate or an activist, a civil right activist. This is prison.

56:03You don't have the same rights here that you have out there. We can't order you not to have relationships or conversations with people from another race, but we can't order you to stop doing stuff that could be counterproductive to us to keep in safety. So if you're going to sit with somebody outside your race in the child hall, that's a direct to front to us. And there are measures that we can take to make sure that you don't do those sorts of things. And I respected the fact that they said it was to keep order. And it was the culture and pretty much everybody in the prison system except said anyway.

56:37Eventually I sat with some of the black guys his time went by and we actually made a little, an elder black guy by the name Mr. B. He was originally from Chicago and from Detroit. He was like the most respected inmate. He got a 25 year sentence. He looked like Morgan Freeman, the actor. He was a lot like him actually very mature responsible. He was the guy a lot of the guys went to for their legal questions Because he knew everything and real nice man and a gentle man and by the time I got there he had already done like 20 something years So he was close to going home and I'd stay up late at night with him talking in that in the In the dormitory portion of the prison where you where I was first before I got myself But it was important to him that before he left after 20 something years that he could actually sit at the Chow Hall with a white guy.

57:28And he liked me because I was, you know, from Chicago. And so we did that one day. I thought I was probably, you know, I was there probably a year and a half by the time we did that. And I sat there and everybody looked at us, you know, we're sitting there, I'm sitting with the black table. And then this great movement for civil disobedience and civil rights, Peter out and Owen gave a fuck. Really? Yeah, yeah, it didn't matter at all. Wow. Yeah, well was it because that guy was so respected? Yeah, I think that was a lot of it And you know, I you know Not everybody likes and some people really dislike it and there were guys in prison really didn't like me But for the most part I had a lot of You know, I had low approval ratings after I got arrested before and they were investigating me when I was governor But I had pretty high approval ratings in prison with my fellow inmates So How did you get into the Bible because that was a big part of your conversation with Tucker?

58:19Yeah You know, well, you know, so that's the first night, you know, when they, the, the, the stark reality really hit me that first night. When around 10 o 'clock at night I hear this big boom. And then you hear the gates shutting because they were not locking you in. It's all iron and it's loud. Bok. And then the lights go down. The lights are out. Now suddenly you're, you're swallowed up in blackness and darkness. and we're locked in, I am bars, you can't get out. And here I am with all these prisoners and inmates, you know, and I just left my family at five -thirty in the morning. I'm not going home tonight or tomorrow night or next week or next month or next year, right?

59:07God willing, I would my appeal, but that might be three years. But even that I was fearful after seeing the criminal justice system and I rigged it was deep down. I knew I was a dead man. I knew that from the beginning when they did what they did. I just felt like I had to fight. Do you think there's anything you could have done that would have gotten you out of all of this? I could have pled guilty and got a lesson with sentence. There's no doubt about that. But what about if you just when they came to you with that senator, if you said sure, we'll hook that up? No, no, no, I don't think that was they were still coming from No, and they wanted me to they wanted me to snitch on Obama.

59:43And they they rested me a six in the morning and they that's just I read about that too. In my house, swat teams 24 member swat team around my house. I'm the sitting governor of the fifth largest state of America. I've got a security security detail on my own. But if four hours later, I'm in their while I'm in their custody, it's good cop time. And they're not being nice to me. You know, you're not a bad guy. We hear all these tapes. You're just a part of Chicago politics. We think you can help us. I'd like you to talk about Yolbamba. We know he wanted to make a deal with you. Stuff like that.

1:00:13They're telling me. It was clear what they wanted to do. And I said, look, I didn't do anything wrong. And as far as I know, he didn't either. There's really nothing to talk about. And then they changed their mood change. And they sent me to another facility and they put me in this little cell. And they had me next to this angry guy that was all fucked up on PCP or something. It was like a raging wild animal, a send me a message, you know. And they eat. I think what they they were never going to go after Obama. But what they wanted to do was they wanted to go to him and say I was willing to cooperate against Obama and then leverage that and have Obama then that tell him, look, just leave us alone.

1:00:52Let us get this guy. Keep us in office when you get sworn in on January 20th. Don't bring in new US attorneys. Don't bring democratic US attorneys and keep us push US attorneys here. And you leave you stay out of this and we'll leave you alone. That's what I think. So it's a lot of chess. Yes. There's a lot of moves and countermoves and yes. People are used as bonds. Correct. There are political power centers. Here's the danger to the American people and to our democracy. They're not supposed to be that. They're supposed to do justice. They're supposed to go out to a real group of people. They're not supposed to be a political power center.

1:01:27Right. You know, Democrats, Republicans, Independents, libertarians, yes, House members, Senate members, the executive branch presidents, yes, the Supreme Court and the courts, yes, checks and balances. Founding fathers had the wisdom to create a system like that because they know the corrupt ability of man, power, corrupts, and absolute power, corrupts absolutely, so they defied it power. That's the beauty and genius of what they did in this country. They did not foresee coming out of the executive branch would be this tumor, this cancer, that really started picking up steam in the 1920s, federal law enforcement, and that it would grow and that the tactics and the methods they used to go after Al Capone or later on, you know, Carlos Escobar and El Chapo and people like that that they would actually use against governors and presidents.

1:02:13They didn't foresee that. The problem is it's a practical matter because they have such power, the politicians are scared shitless of them. They don't want to stand up to them because they're afraid. These people will trump up shit against them and just make shit up or get something they might have made have done and made it bigger. So it's very hard to knows how the game is played so everybody has to play the game. Correct. And then when you get, you're the one on the wrong end of it. All your friends and politics, they run for the hills, they abandon you, and then all of a sudden, they kiss in your ass the day before you arrest it, and the next day they're maligning the shit out of you.

1:02:45It sounds like Hollywood. Is that right? Is it the kind of the same thing? I mean, that's what they do when everybody gets in trouble in Hollywood. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Well, that's just There's a lot of cowards and a lot of people have a reason to be cowards. It's fearful. They're scared. It's a dangerous system, especially the justice system. It seems very dangerous. And this is not to malign good people because there's, I know people, I've met people in the FBI. I met great people in the CIA. I know them. They're great people. It's just what you were saying. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

1:03:22And when people get into positions of power and influence in this chess game, so it's getting played that can make all sorts of rationalizations if there's no checks and balances. This is why there has to be checks and balances and there has to be oversight to keep people from their own devices, to keep people from their own horrible instincts that we have as human beings, especially if you've done some shady shit because other people have done some shady shit and that's how everybody sort of worked their way up the ladder and then all of a sudden you get to a position where like, hey, you're gonna have to do something that you really don't agree with but this is how the game is played and then next thing you know, right?

1:03:59It's like your chief of staff and your governor's lawyer and all your friends who people have worked with you and got rich on you. That choice is I have to look at my little boy who's three years old in his future or do I protect, try to defend my boss? Right, of course. And they make the decision understandably for their families. Yeah, well, and I think a lot of people go into whether it's politics or law enforcement or into the federal government. There's a lot of people that go into it with very good intentions. But then you see over time they get corrupted by the environment that they're in.

1:04:31That's right. They become part of a buddy system. It happens with politicians all the time. You get elected back home in Austin, Texas, and they go to Washington and get co -opted by the system because you're young and you don't really know or you're new and you don't know. They show you the ropes and the ropes are controlled by that deep stake, that establishment of the long term members of Congress, the people in the different agencies, the state, staffers and it's a whole different world there and it's basically them against us. There is a deep state in state government, federal government.

1:05:01It's really almost given in law enforcement. I mean, especially corrupt law enforcement. Did you ever see that documentary? What is it district 75? Is it precinct 75? I think it's the 5 -7. The 5 -7. That what it is? The 7 -5 or the 5 -7? Is the gentleman named Mike Dowd. We had him on the podcast as well. and you know, seven five, seven five. On first day, he's a cop. He watches the cops kill a guy. And you know, they essentially say to him, he jumped right and like he's like, okay, he jumped. It's like one of those situations where like, okay, I guess this is this business that I'm a part of now.

1:05:42I wanted to be a cop, now I'm a cop. And then he runs with it. Next thing you know, he's selling drugs, kidnap people, it's fucking crazy. documentary. He's a fun guy. I mean, it's obviously did terrible things. Went to jail, but the documentary is so fucking crazy. What's it called? The 7 -5, right? The 5 -7? 7 -5. 7 -5. What am I? You just told me. That's it. That's the documentary. Michael Dowd. Yeah. It's fantastic. It's a really good documentary. And you know, you just realize like Jesus. us. Obviously the cocaine crisis in Miami is another great example of that. And one of the best documentaries about that is cocaine cowboys.

1:06:27Fantastic document. I can't recommend it enough. One graduating class of the police academy in Miami, they all either went to jail or were murdered. The entire graduating class. That's how corrupt it was. It was just off the charts, cocaine and money everywhere, chaos and murder everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. You see that here again, the stuff we're talking about, it's so important that this justice system gets reformed. I'm so excited about the fact that Trump, the people he's picking, Pam Bondi, great person's got a good record, Patel, because if we don't trust the criminal justice system, When you tell me a story about those dirty cops and I'm sure that's absolutely what they were and those who prosecuted them were right to do it.

1:07:17Oh, they definitely were. They were dirty cops. But what if you don't trust those prosecutors? Right? Suddenly the whole system breaks down. You can't trust anything. So much it's taken this. I failed to tell you what that first night was like and that first night and I just should wrap it up very quickly. But you know, there I was in this darkness and so all alone and so heartbroken and so fearful and worried about my kids and my wife and what it was like for them. I'm imagining in my mind, my wife comforting my daughters, as if I had died, because I kind of did. I was gone. They were gonna grow up without their father.

1:07:46So all of that's going through my mind. And then I reached for the Bible. That my wife gave me to leave for prison, to take with me to prison. They don't let you bring anything else in, but they'll let you bring the Bible in. I've always had a belief in God. I always believed in prayer. I was raised in the Serbian Orthodox Christian church. But I never read the Bible. I was just so busy trying to get ahead in life. You know, I had to go out and make campaign promises, give speeches, give a baby, shake hands, raise money. I tried Genesis, I get stuck in Genesis, someone so I was beginning so and so.

1:08:18I'll put this on the side. I can't write. Now, suddenly here, I am in this deep fucking dark valley and I'm facing 14 years of this. I'm so alone. I'm not going to fuck around with Genesis or Deuteronomy or Leviticus or any of that stuff. I'm going to something right away that might give me some hope. And I went to the 23rd Psalm, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. It makes me lie down in green pastures. And then I kept reading the Psalms, and I know the story of David, and I associate myself with him. I know I get criticized and aligned by people in the media for saying, I'm like David, I'm not saying I'm not.

1:08:50I'm not saying I am. I'm simply saying I looked at his example and I got strength from that, because he was being chased by Saul and he's in the caves for like 11 years or chasing him. They can he -interred that. maybe there's hope and I'd read his Psalms because they're just prayers to God as what they are from him and They were helpful to me. So I kept reading and I went to Isaiah and the fiery furnace of affliction and how Adversity and hard times is God's way of testing us. It could make us stronger and better We learned through those hard lessons the fiery, you know through the fire of hard times and of course Then eventually the gospels and the best story of all that my mind is a Christian is the story of Jesus and in areas in the garden a gaztemani and he's saying to God because he's so afraid because he knows what's common what they're going to do to him.

1:09:33And he says, Oh, Father, please lift this cup from me. I mean, I get choked up just thinking about this. And he says, but no, God, no, Father, not my will, your will. And then he steals himself for what he's got a face takes on all those suffering that he goes through and the humiliation, everything else. So I read it every day for two thousand eight hundred ninety six days. And I know it in a way I never knew it before. And I love it and it brought me so much closer to God. And there were moments as crazy as this sounds, and I'm not running for anything, so I'm not here to try to like, when Christian evangelical votes or anything.

1:10:08But there were moments years into the process, not those first early years, because they were so hard. But after I was there for six, year six, year seven, and I'd read the Bible like that every day. And I was really working out and I was reading a lot of other books. And I'd get visits maybe a couple of times, you know, in the beginning it was like two or three times a year in the beginning And then as time went by I was hard for our daughters and I would encourage them not to come because they were in school And we were hopeful that we get justice in the courts and only in other few more months the appellacortal come through Don't come so now suddenly I'm seeing less and less of them, but I'd have moments and I was lucky because I was in Colorado Which is a beautiful place with great weather and blue skies and and snow -cap foothills of the Rockies.

1:10:51That's where the prison was. And then when it would rain, there'd be rainbows. I believe these are godly things. And I'd sometimes get done with a run or something and I'd walk through, I'd walk that track stretch in a little bit and I'd see that beautiful rain, but when I can almost feel the presence of God, I know it sounds like bullshit for people who don't know that. But when you've been beaten down so much and you're so fucking alone, I've looked for God and I really believe I found Him. And I feel like I'm at a place now. Well, I'm grateful, you know, we're way for that experience. I wish it never happened.

1:11:24And I have bitterness still. And I hate the motherfuckers that hit it to me. And I know I'm not supposed to hate them. I'm supposed to forgive them. I'm not that good a Christian. I hate the motherfuckers. They belong in jail. But I have to say that that experience, reading the Bible that way, maybe it serves a higher purpose. Maybe in some ways, you know, it was good for me. I think you got the most out of that horrific situation in that regard, right? And sometimes you have to experience horrific tragedy to experience incredible love. That's a weird thing to think of, but I think this battle that we have constantly with good and evil and it's a real thing and it's sometimes in your darkest deepest moments is when you you recognize a truth.

1:12:16There's something there that we all, every culture believes in a higher power. It's very strange, isn't it? Like, almost every culture. Like, almost every culture has some sort of belief system about a higher power. It's something you could say, you could be very cynical and you could say that's just human beings looking for order and an orderless chaotic place and that your creativity and your inquisition, your inquisitive nature rather, leads you to constantly search for a daddy in the sky. You could say that. But I've talked to too many people that have had these sort of like you've had these breakthrough moments in life where you come into contact with something by opening yourself up to it and it's so cynical to disregard that.

1:13:09Everybody wants to pretend that they're smarter than they really are. It's a terrible trait that we all have. And that prevents you from, especially secular people, atheists, people that are like acknowledged atheists, prevents you from even considering the idea that there's something to this that you're not getting. And your simple little mind, your desire for order and to look at this and go, no, you just live and you die. what you don't really know. You should probably listen to some people that have had profound experiences because there's been a lot of them and there's been a lot of them throughout human history and to just completely dismiss them as all nonsense, it's just like that's such a cynical perspective on human beings.

1:13:56And then there's also the fact that like I'm not saying bad things have have been done in the name of religion because they most certainly have people been slaughtered wars have been started people have been demonized and other to the point where you're allowed to kill them because they believe the wrong thing it's it's not universally good but it's a scaffolding for ethics and morals that I think shape society in a way that's not really possible with just anarchy. You know, you need law and order. You need something you believe in. That's what keeps us together. I mean, you could be a brilliant intelligent person who's just unusually compassionate, lived your whole life with that religion, still be an excellent contributor to society.

1:14:42But God, the people that I've met and one of the things about coming to Texas is I meet so many of vowed Christians. So many like really proud and intelligent and vocal religious people. And there's some of the nicest people like you could ever meet. Like a real Christian, like I've met some real Christians like this my friend Alan who that runs a homeless, like a rehabilitation community here in Austin. It's like the guy is just a real Christian. I mean, he lives with these people. He's just like really walking the more. He's like doing it for money. He's not going to have a mega church. He doesn't drive a Rolls Royce.

1:15:24He's a regular person who really is acting like the Christian from the Bible, like the best example of a Christian from the Bible. Bible talks about false prophets because people are human nature. Because there's a lot of us who are false prophets. Well, but I made some of these, we call them in prison. Jailhaw's Jesus, some of these guys, oh sure. You know, they walk around their Bible, tote their Bible, and they were stealing, they know and rip you off. We talked about that. We talked about that in terms of psychedelics and the spiritual narcissism. I think the same sort of spiritual narcissism that encompasses these preachers, that talk in front of stadiums, Philip people, and fly private jets, and drive roads, where I says, that's the same sort of thing as a guru who wants to take you to the jungle to give you drugs, or someone who wants you to join their sex cult, or someone who wants you to join their yoga thing, where no one works anymore, and you all grow your own food, and this is your guru.

1:16:25There's a shit ton of documentaries on these folks. No doubt it. That's the Paul's profit. It's a danger. It's a real danger that we have in looking for someone smarter than us. It's a normal pattern of behavior from tribal societies. All tribal societies had the wisest person who was the leader. This is the person that everybody trusted. He's the guy with the most scars. He knows where the food is. He knows how to get the fuck away from the enemies. He knows how to keep order and he's reasonable in how he governs the village. And until someone over throws him, that's your guy. And we have this hierarchy that we look for in everything.

1:17:03You know, we really do. We look for it in all sorts of things. And if we find it in a false profit, we'll go with it. There's some, I bought a building out here. You know, my podcast or my comedy club is in a place called The Ritz Theater. It's this beautiful theater from 1927. But before that, I had bought another building that was owned by a cult. It was a building called the One World Theater. I didn't buy it. I was under contract for it. I spent a bunch of money and got out of it because I watched the documentary on the cult. And I was like, oh my god. It was a guy who was a gay porn star and a hypnotist who Started this cult in West Hollywood and then after Waco popped off this guy had escaped from West Hollywood because they were looking for him Because you know the cult awareness network and they started you know after Waco, they're like Jesus Christ.

1:17:51How many of these cults are out there? Yeah, they were targeting this guy. So he changed his name move to Austin and built this theater and the cult had already disbanded a bunch and my friend Ron White, the comedian, told me because he had performed it. He turned into a concert venue. This theater, that this guy had his cult followers build him so he could dance in front of them. It's beautiful, 300 -seat theater, gorgeous place. And this is the same thing. It's just a person who convinced all these other people that he had the answers and he was a hypnotist and he was really good at fucking with people and and really good at like talking people in a certain state's mind, and they all believed in them.

1:18:29And they wasted decades of their life. That's literally in the Bible. That's a false prophet. That's right. By the way, congratulations on your magnificent success. Thank you very much. And you're a comedian too, huh? Yeah. I do a lot of different things. Yeah. Wow. I was stuck when you were on the rise. So when I came home, I didn't know who you were. I hope you don't kick the ass. That's great. No, no, I don't care. I'm happy now that people don't know who I am. Yeah. When I can talk to somebody, don't know who I am, like this is great. But it wasn't long before I got home, I would say within a couple of days that I got this thing called an iPhone, what's this?

1:19:02And this guy Joe Wogan had this big deal on this podcast. I said, Joe, who? And they told me, it's remarkable. That's crazy. So you went to jail before iPhones? Yeah. Wow. Wow. What a fascinating blip in time that is, if you really look at in terms of impactfulness, like a piece of technology that completely changed the world. That might be one of the most, but that's bigger than the laptop, I think. I think it's the most impactful. I think the invention of the iPhone is probably one of the most impactful things human beings have ever created. Not necessarily in a great way, but sometimes in a great way.

1:19:38Oh yeah. Yeah, no, no. There's a lot of great things about it, but the invention of the smartphone, for all good or bad, you missed it, and that's really crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. Can I go back just briefly to the spiritual end of it? I just want to say that, look, I consider myself, I think I have testicular virility, you know what I mean? I think I can... Yeah, balls. Yeah, I really do. I know what I do. And I have a certain toughness to me, but I'll tell you something. I wasn't strong enough to get through prison by myself. I needed God. And it was that, my love for my daughters and my wife, I could never possibly give and I had to survive and somehow find my way home.

1:20:17However long it might take and I had to do it in a way where I could be so strong and be constructive and actually plan seats for a better life later on where whatever I did my little girls can see that you know God forbid when tough times come because it comes to all of us How do you deal with those hard times? Do you embrace the adversity try to turn into something good or you just give into it? And so that gave me the purpose I needed in prison and I spent a lot of time not just reading the Bible But reading all kinds of books because you got time I mean you got a lot of time I read a book three times and I talked to this about this to Tucker Carlson called Man Search for Meaning by a guy named Victor Frank LaHolo cost survivor who had gone through things a million times worse than anything I went through.

1:20:57He lost his wife, his family through genocide. It was at Auschwitz and survived it. But he said that the last of the human freedoms after everything's been taken from you, the last of the human freedoms is our freedom to choose our own attitude in any given set of circumstances. And that if you could find a why to live, you could find the how. And my why was my little girls and my wife. No matter how hard this was going to be, I had to survive this. I had to endure it and I needed to do it in a way where it would be the best possible way to do it that could help raise my daughters from afar because I didn't raise my daughter to it.

1:21:35I mean, my wife raised our children, our little girls. And so that gave me real purpose. And now I have those moments when despair would creep in. It's very natural. I mean, a lot of blue moments as you can imagine. I can never ever, ever let myself get so down that I would not be active in any given day. I had to go out there and run those miles and look the way it's two push -ups, whatever it was. Read those books. Do the stuff I would write about. Because I love my daughters. And I'm doing it for them. That was my purpose. Not running for government anymore. I'm not trying to be successful in the real world because I'm not in a name more.

1:22:08or my success, I'll measure by whether or not I'm strong and tough and I'm productive, because I'm doing this for my kids. Does that make sense? It does. Do you think the experience of being in jail is horrible as it is made you a better person? I like to think that it did. I think I'm more humble, I think. That was never good at that. No, right. That's sometimes that's a bite's people in the ass. I always say that about Trump. Like that's also why he kept running. even though everybody was coming after him. Like you have to be a very particular type of person that has all those legal cases thrown at him.

1:22:46All those different, I mean, if he lost, and he lost those cases, and then he lost the run for presidency, he very well might wind up in jail. They can't have him at 82 years old trying again. You know, they're not interested in, because he became more popular when he was gone than when he was president, and people sort of like towards the end of the four years of Biden had like completely revert. So many of my friends me included to completely reverse how they looked at them. Yeah. And then also a lot of it was getting exposed to watching how this propaganda machine marches in step all throughout the media with everything.

1:23:27You know me in particular having turn on me during the COVID years for being someone who got healthy without taking the vaccine and they wanted to get me removed from Spotify. I'm like, this is crazy. This is wild watch. And that was, you know, minor league stuff compared to what happened to him and certainly compared to what happened to you. But just I think people are less likely to believe mainstream narratives now. And we're so fortunate we have other ways like Tucker show where I saw you. Like things that aren't approved. You know, I mean, look, when Tucker was on Fox News, I'm sure there was a lot of things that he wanted to cover that he couldn't.

1:24:06Like, there was no way when he was on Fox News, he could have interviewed that guy who says he blew Obama. This guy's Tucker Carlson is such a wild boy. He's got a guy on for like, how long was that podcast? Find out how long the Tucker Carlson podcast was with the guy who claims like James Blue Obama. Because just even being able to sustain a conversation with a guy who wants to talk about smoking crack and blowing Obama, how many minutes can you do? I wanna know, I'd be hard pressed to think I could squeeze an hour out of that guy. Like what the fuck are you gonna talk about? How long is that podcast?

1:24:50All right, he hung in there as long as he good. But my point is I'm not in and not again, I'm not standing up for him having that guy on. I'm not saying that was a good thing. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, that's what he wanted to do. You know, I watched a little of it. That's what Tucker, so that's Tucker with no one telling him what to do. The Tucker Carlson show, he does whatever he wants, he interviews whoever wants, he comes up with the questions he wants, he has real conversations that didn't fucking exist before. And now that it does exist and a guy like Tucker who is the number one guy in news to begin with now He's independent along with independent journalists like Michael Schellenberger and Matt Taiibi and Barry Weiss and Glenn Greenwald They're all these people that are honest and you know they're honest.

1:25:38They're always honest They're always giving you the full version of the truth and it's spread like wildfire And then you look at the narratives that you see in mainstream media and like you're leaving so much out You don't you're not talking about that you're not talking about what why people are upset You're not talking about what started it. You're not talking about the government intervention It was behind it all in the first place and I was a planned organization and I think they leave out everything because that's not what they're supposed to do What they're supposed to do is sell as many stories as they can but stay within a very confined narrative exactly right and most of that narrative is heavily progressive left leaning until that's not popular anymore.

1:26:18And when that falls out of favor, folks, when that becomes non -profitable, they're going to go the other way. The country will move more right. It'll be more right in the media even if it becomes profitable. Well, that's why what you're doing. I'm not here to kiss your ass, but I am grateful for being on your show. It's very nice to have me so I can talk about my stuff. But know this is what you're doing in Tucker Carlson and so many podcasters who are out there offering another place for people to get information in the free exchange of ideas in a free country that cherishes free speech supposedly but no longer does and I think most people do.

1:26:52People do but the government and the power centers and the it's just when it's not convenient there you go there you go and the fact that there's these rules we should have rules that apply across the board if we want to progress as society. And one of those rules, the most important rule, the reason why it's the First Amendment, you have to be able to talk about that. You have to be, you're going to get things wrong, you're going to be poorly informed, you're going to have biased opinions, hopefully someone who is more informed has a more objective and more honest opinion, more accurate opinion.

1:27:34And then hopefully you're strong enough, that that resonates with you and you can put your ego beside you and go, you know what? This is me wanting to be right. This is my ego. The correct thing is what these people are saying. Let me tell you why I thought what I thought and how I was wrong and apologize. And if that doesn't mean you're weak, it just means you like everyone else in the world sometimes is wrong about things. Like I have a friend of mine, I don't wanna say his name. Very, very nice guy. One of the smartest fucking people I know, and I have these fascinating conversations with him.

1:28:12And then one day, he tried to explain to me why something works in the UFC, why something else doesn't work anymore. I go, stop. Could stop. You're gonna ruin my opinion of you. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Don't say this. Don't say this to me. I mean, work over the UFC for 25 fucking years. Don't say this to me. You don't know what you're saying. You're saying nonsense. He's like, really? I go, yes. This is a total nonsense. Here's an example why it's nonsense. This guy violates that rule. No one can, you can't tell. There's a specific group of movements that are all designed to fuck people up.

1:28:46Any one pattern can be successful given the individual and his abilities and his competency in whatever skill set that is. There's no one skill set. You can't run around saying one skill set trumps all. It doesn't work like that anymore. This is, that's interesting. think this is brilliant people so this is a person talking out of his ass because they're people they have their own prejudices and their rights right also they like to be smart people smart people like to be smart exactly they want to be the smart always they're smart about some things that what is that there's a look at a term for that where like really intelligent people erroneously believe they're intelligent about everything considered ignorance it's like that yeah right socrates called it considered ignorance and by the way they've made him treat the hemlock and kill him because supposedly he was corrupting the youth of Athens, in Greece.

1:29:33We probably was too. He was, but he was also challenging, conventional thinking. Yes, of course. Which is what we're talking about, of course. A necessary and a free society. Yes. Dunning Kruger, fact that's right. Okay. Cognitive bias with individuals with high competence in one area overestimate their knowledge and abilities in unrelated fields. Yeah, it's exactly what it is. Well, I don't have that problem. With super common with really good people that are very good at things. If you people that are very good at things, any one thing, like if you're a wizard at basketball, you probably think you're way better at playing pool than you really are.

1:30:04There's a lot of, like, I'm the fucking man. You know, like if you're a guy, just cracking home runs every day and someone wants to play ping pong, like motherfucker, I'll figure this ping pong shit out in about five minutes and then I'll start fucking you up. And it's just not true. You know, and there's a lot of people that are really smart people, unfortunately. And this happens with tough people too. Tough people want to pretend they're the only tough person. They all want to pretend that. Everybody has this weird thing where they think they're different than everybody else. And that's what leads them to be champions, but that is also what makes it incredibly difficult to come back from a devastating loss for some of these guys.

1:30:47So if they fight a guy and they've been the fucking man for years, and also they're in there with this guy and they're like, oh my god, I'm getting hurt right now. I'm getting hurt and I'm probably gonna get stopped and you see it in their eyes You see they can't believe it's happening. They never envisioned a time where this guy's gonna knock them out And then they're against the cage And you see them getting lit up and you in my mind I'm seeing the sparks in front of their eyes because when you get hit you see sparks and if you get hit with like a big shot Like you see you can't you don't know where anybody is for a couple seconds your legs aren't working I'm seeing it in this person that thought they were so good They could fight this other person.

1:31:26They didn't see it the way everybody else saw it Mm -hmm. You know they didn't see that they were past their prime or they didn't see that this is a bigger weight class or whatever The the variables are that lead to like a devastating loss Yeah, like Durand and herds in the 80s the mismatch the size and herds knocked him up like the second round Well, yeah, that was Tommy herns in his prime man because you got to realize Durand did go full 12 with Hagler Right when Hagler was in his prime, right, but Hagler had a respect for Durand that I think almost was Unfortunate because like had Durand Thirsty small no small comparison just that Hagler in his mind Durand was like one of the legends Yeah, rightfully so mean the the quitting with sugary landed was horrible and it ruined his reputation But if you could just take that fight away Yeah, and look at every other look at his body work What he did that Ken Buchanan when he was a lightweight right people don't even understand Roberto Durán started his career at 135 Win up and won the middleweight title you don't understand how fucking crazy Roberto Durán was when he beat Davey Moore Was that super super well to wait?

1:32:37It was even 154 It was a Davey Moore who was in his fucking prize. That was in LA wasn't it? I don't know where it was I remember I watched on TV June 20th 1980 Leonard and Montreal remember that yeah, sure. I loved your man I met your man once when he was training for that Davey Moore fight in LA and What you're saying about martial arts and boxing there's so many life lessons Experiencing that in the ring I'm out here to say that I'm some great fighter like you were But I fought the Golden Gloves when I was in high school first time I ever got my name the Chicago Tribune That's amazing last time they were sending nice about me.

1:33:10See that's a hard thing to do you learned about life Because you know teammates is just you in there. It's right if you won the Golden Gloves That is a very I didn't win the Golden Gloves I fought in the Golden Gloves Yeah, even fighting yeah even just getting into the ring having the courage in your fucking underwear to step through those Roaps with those stupid shoes on and big pads over and you realize you're just throw your hands at some other to do is trying to KO you. Yeah, exactly. The other dude's trying to kick you ass. It's such a weird feeling. How old were you when you started? I started fighting when I was 15.

1:33:38And what was the impetus? What got you interested? Well, I got picked on a lot. I was a small kid. And I was always moving. We were always moving to new neighborhoods. And we had moved to this new neighborhood. Nobody really hurt me. Like, I'd be real clear about that. I got pushed around a little bit, like teenage boys do to each other, but I didn't like it. I didn't like it at all. And so I was like, look, I'm not growing. So it's like, what do I, what can I do to stop this fear that I have of conflict? I was terrified of like conflict with kids because I did not know what to do. I had no training, no martial arts, and the only sport I ever played was baseball.

1:34:17And so I started doing martial arts and I became obsessed. Was it Taekwondo? Yeah. Well, I first started with karate. Okay. I was going to this place called Espositos Karate and Newton Massachusetts. He was like the town legend. He was this black belt guy who was awesome, who taught this like very popular school. But it was hard for me to get there. I didn't have a car, I was a kid. And so I would have to take a bus and walk a mile. It was like too much, especially in the winter. But I found this type of a no place in Kenwood Square and Kenmore Square rather in Boston. And the tea would go right to it.

1:34:53I'd only have it walk a mile to get to the tea and then I get on the tea. So I do that every day. Can you just public transportation? Exactly. So every day I'd walk a mile, get on a tee, after school. After school. So in the schools over, I'd go right from my house, I'd grab my gym bag and I'd go to the gym, and I went every day. Great. So then like when I was in high school, I was traveling around the country, fighting in tournaments. It was the weirdest shit. It's like I went from being terrified of fighting until like fighting all the time. Like all the time we were flying Ohio and you know I couldn't drive I was 16 at the time So I was with all these other guys and they were most of them were like grown men And we would all go and I was competing as a grown man.

1:35:37I was competing as a grown man was like 15 What way class were you? I start I won the state championship the first year at 140 But it was way too hard for me to wait the whip and I was doing it like a moron right the guys who do it today They really know what they're doing. I just stopped eating right? I just stopped eating and stopped drinking water and then I'd get in the shower and I'd like shadow box in the shower when it was you know Steaming hot so it's trying to like drain my body of weight Yeah, and then I'd have to fight that day by the way you have to fight you day and you're so tired You're yeah, yeah, so I won the states one year doing that But I realized like I can't do this anymore and I also tried being a vegetarian I tried a bunch of stuff and then the next year when I was 18 then I started eating Then I then I went up to 150 if he was 55 or 54 I forget what the way class was but it was 50 something I went up to that and then I got way better.

1:36:25I was much much much better What was the typical training day like? He gave hours so what would you do it the whole day? It was all day I would the moment I would get home from school. Yeah, I'd usually eat something real quick grab my bag like a banana Who would you need good? I was retarded. I would eat a bolserial I was like, that was great. And I didn't have a lot of guide and so my parents both worked. So I, you know, I fend for myself, whatever's in the house, I'd eat that and then I'd get on a tee and head out and go train. And so. So how much time between that, when you ate and when you actually got working out?

1:37:00An hour. Yeah. So you got, well, you were traveling, you digesting. Yeah. Because it takes like an hour to get there at least. It takes, you know, takes like a half hour to walk and then 20 minutes on the train. And so you got a train right there, you got a coach, you got other guys. Yeah, yeah, and then I started teaching that was a big thing, too But what did you do? What would you work happy? Would you well you would always start up? You would but mostly we'd start with technique, right? You so so most of the time you would start with just straight kicks You would just practice kicks Home in you're also warming up so you go through a whole warm -up routine You'd practice your kicks like mostly just for form So you'd practice kicks and then you would practice kicks with they would call it like a one step.

1:37:41Like you would come at me with a thing and I would practice stepping to the side and countering, you'd practice that way. Then you would do sparring and we sparred almost every night and some of the sparring was fucking horrific. We just sparred like a rounds? Yeah. Three minute rounds. Three minute rounds, generally. Yeah. And you're sparring, you know, all these people that are bigger than you are stronger than you are. And I was a kid. Right, right. And then you would have a heavy bag work. A heavy bag was always at the end. when you were exhausted, you'd work on your power. And then there were some days we just came in and only worked on technique.

1:38:12You didn't spar. Those are good days. You could just only work on your power. Like heavy bag work, drills, speed, speed drills, focus mitts. I get out of these pads, these paddles of people all the new throw kicks and paddles. And you're just all working on making it so it just has no telegraph. It just goes off. You're trying to have it just go off like a switch. And so you're just constantly drilling it as if you're competing and then you'd go on the weekends, you go compete somewhere. Would you run it all to any roadwork or push -ups? Yeah, I ran, I did, but honestly, I hated running and I spent so much time training already that my endurance was fine.

1:38:48And I would do rounds in the bag. I always felt like rounds in the bag were better endurance anyway, because that was like what you were gonna actually do. No doubt. Other than getting hit. Of course. But would you do like, ab work and stuff? Work your core, get that strong? Yeah, I would do sit ups and I would do push ups and I would do chin ups and shit like that, but not a whole lot of things. Most of it was heavy back training and sparring. That alone is a quaver. It was like quite a while before they started accepting even the idea of weight lifting. You know, a lot of, for a long time, boxers, we were just talking about the day of the day with the Bert Soren.

1:39:20From Sorenx. He was saying that like boxers were told that if they lifted weights, they would be really stiff until their Vanderholly field came around. And the Vanderholly field kind of changed everybody's opinion of it because he lifted weights, moved up to heavy weight from cruiser weight, it was awesome. And there was like, hey, maybe weightlifting just makes you stronger. And then now they all do it. It's kind of funny. Almost all those guys have some kind of strength and can condition the routine now. Yeah. Yeah. So what do you do now? What do you have to stay in shape? You're addicted to it because it's your lifestyle.

1:39:53But I think I'm addicted to it for mental health reasons too. Me too, I know what you mean. I think doing something difficult is very important, and especially if it's like self -administered, do something really hard and it makes the rest your day easier. And it also, it's just, you know, Andrew Huberman has talked about this. There's a specific area of your brain, and when you do uncomfortable things, that area of your brain grows, and when you're sedentary and you're not doing shit, that area of your brain actually shrinks. So it enhances your ability to do difficult things by doing difficult things regularly.

1:40:27So it's not just like, you know, I'm addicted to it. It's like, no, it's a vitamin. Like you should do it. Like you should do it. It makes your brain more resilient. Like doing hard things. I go, oh, I look just like in the couch. Bitch, I do too. Everybody does. Everybody likes to lay in the couch. That's not the point. The point is, it's not good for you. Listen, what you're saying is so true. Again, back to my prison experience, among the things that helped me get through it was that emotional pain and the heartache that you're feeling. I found by throwing myself into hard physical exercise, really helped me.

1:41:01Get softened that, less than that emotional pain, heartache, and it just made me feel less hurting. I hurt less by forcing physical pain on myself by running 10 miles, for example, on my first Christmas day, because it was so brutal emotionally that I had to be at this shithole place for Christmas. You know what I mean? So what you're saying makes perfect sense to me. And obviously your situation was very extreme and you know you need to relief in any way you could find it through Jesus through Exercise through everything through constantly being work But for the just any person listening to this do something hard right just make yourself do something hard all the time Just trust me you'll feel better your life will work better You'll be able to handle things better.

1:41:43You'll be able to handle disputes better conversations better Interactions with people better do something hard. You'll have more love in your heart less The friendliest people that I know are all killers. You're all killers. That's interesting. The friendliest people that I know. If you met, like, some of my friends at UFC, if you didn't know who they were, and you met them, they're the most lovely people. Like Daniel Cormier, he does color commentary with me. So it's me and Daniel and this guy, John Anac, we're all very tight. Daniel was a middleweight champion, or excuse me, light heavyweight champion, and heavyweight champion.

1:42:19He was a two division world champion and was dominating in a weight class that in strike force, he didn't belong in heavyweight. He was like 5 '11, he's not a big guy. He's just such an insane tank of a human being and his wrestling was so insane and his just will was so insane. He was dominating, dominated two different divisions. He was a killer. The nicest fucking guy you'd ever meet in your life. If you're hanging around with him, you would never believe. You would never believe that he could pick up anybody in the room and smash them on their head. You would never believe it You would think he's just a sweetheart of a guy So because of my limited very limited boxing experience.

1:42:59I got to know boxers and recently I was Helped Tommy herons help trump get Tommy herons is entorsment and he herons spets up time with me in Chicago The nicest guy this guy was such a fucking badass fighter as you know, oh my god Tommy herons in his prime was in his house Yeah, but on a personal level Gentle godforing soft -hearted with your describe with the guys that you know and a lot of the guys I knew from the boxing world in Chicago a lot like that the guys had a lot more success to me because I was just a Best I was a middling guy who did it for one year But I know exactly what you're saying.

1:43:34Can I say something about tough guys and Trump real quick? Sure to go back to Trump because the point you made I thought was really interesting that you got to have that kind of self -love to endure all of it, shit, they threw it in him. And you got to. Well, you have to be a psycho. And he's kind of a psycho. You have to be the type of person that tweets I hate to or swift. Like, I don't have. I mean, the act mindset. But without that, you don't keep fighting. Like they try to kill him twice. That's right. And one of them nicked his ear. And there were literally people online doubting whether or not he got hit.

1:44:08You see blood coming off of his ear. People were saying it was staged so that he could avoid prison. I mean, I heard Prominent people say these things. Yes, some prominent woman tweeted that he's only he got shot because he's trying to get out of jail Out of going to jail like this is like I don't care what you were trying to say that's such an insane take on a former President who's running for office again being assassinated you should be against assassinations Assassinations are horrible. It's against the law is one of the most horrific. No matter what did he do, he paid off a lady, is that what he did?

1:44:42You think you should get shot in the fucking head for that? Well said. What did he do? What did he do? Do you think he deserves getting shot in the fucking head? Yeah. And this complete lack of appreciation that the whole thing is rigged. The whole thing is corrupt. That's not good for you either. It's not good for anybody. Just because you label yourself a liberal, you can't watch them throw the constitution in the toilet. You can't just sit back and watch them. Cause yeah, they're doing it against Trump. Oh, you got shot, good. Are you fucking crazy? People getting shot is good. How are the love people, the progressive people, the people on the left?

1:45:19How are they like, I wish that guy didn't miss. How are they doing that? Because that's how lost we've gotten with these mainstream political narrative. They feed you what you're supposed to think and you never have the ability to think it out for yourself. It's like groups of people just going through the information and coming to a conclusion as a country Instead you have to be on fucking a car. Yeah, I like in prison That's right and you got to be with this car. It's basically the same thing. You're in a gang You're just not in the area and race well said you're in the fucking left wing Progressives right exactly I fucking turn on you they all turn on each other They do it all the time because they're all just Grambling for stature Joe can I just say one more thing about Trump on the subject Self -love, personal toughness for sure, but can I say something else?

1:46:04This man, I honestly believe this, truly loves America. He isn't just doing this because he wants to be the president. He's already been that and he's got all this great success. How do you live the life he's lived? Give that up. Go into that shit hole business. I was in that I know all too well to have to deal with all these phony fucking politicians and suffer these assholes. These duplicitous hypocrites in your party and the other party, which is what most of them are. There's a lot of good ones, but more of them than not are full of shit. They're weak. They're cowardly. And they go along with the kind of trends that you were just talking about.

1:46:37When you go through something what Trump went through and you keep doing it, it's more than just his own self love. I truly believe he has a genuine abiding love in his country. I think in his mind, I'm guessing I'm putting this in his mind kind of thinking about my own kind of experience. He's saying himself, I'm going to, if I have to go down fighting for my country, I'm going to do it and I think that helps motivate him get stronger and tougher when he is convinced that it isn't just about his ego or himself, but it's something higher and bigger like what America is supposed to be. Does that make any sense?

1:47:08It does. And anybody that would push back against that, I would say, listen, before you even form an opinion, I want you to think about what happened when he got shot. So he gets tackled. He's got blood coming out of his ear, guns grow off, guy behind him's dead. God got shot protecting his family. He stands up and he throws his hand up in the air and says fight, fight, fight. Yeah. That's not fake. Right. Like, that's in the moment after getting hit by a bullet, covered by the Secret Service, Guy behind him is dead. How many gunshots had wrung off? Nine shots? Between the snipers killing him, him shooting.

1:47:47I think he shot three times. Yeah, right. And then he fight, fight, fight. That's in the moment. That's right. That's in the moment. That's right. Everybody loves America, including people that aren't in America, which is why so many people are sneaking over to America. Okay? There's not a whole lot of people sneaking in in Olivia. Everybody loves America. Why? It's the shit. Why? But it's the shit because of personal freedom. And? And because you can be somebody here. That's it. You can be Joe Rogan, a kid who's 15, getting on their public who has a presentation to do kicking in martial arts and become what you are.

1:48:20You can be me. You could be anything you want. You could be a doctor, a lawyer, an author, a painter, a musician. You could do anything you want. And no other place in the world offers it like this place. And this place celebrates my opportunity. I have a friend of mine from the UK, when he moved over here, one of the first things he said was in England, they try to push you down if you try to get ahead. Like they'll try to dismiss you. It's like tall poppy syndrome. They don't want anybody rising above everybody else very discouraging well That's the socialist mindset. That's the new democratic party today.

1:48:51Yeah, it isn't about Celebrating somebody else's success and saying hey, I want to be like him or that guy success is actually creating more opportunities for me to be better off Than what I am now. It's instead pull him down so we can make everybody equal It's generally very energetic people who don't have any ambition So they have all this energy and they put their energy into this nonsense instead of like sorting your life out and pursuing something for yourself. There should be, this is how it should all work. Everybody should have an equal opportunity to be educated and to pursue their dreams.

1:49:25But we're not going to have equality of effort. It's not going to exist. I can't tell you to do what I do. But I'll tell you what I do and you can either listen and pay attention. You can say, oh, look at all the effectiveness. Look at how he's been able to do so many different things. How is that possible? What's all simple? It's all just hard work. Not everybody wants to do that. No. So if you want a quality of outcome and you don't have a quality of effort, then you have tyranny. Because then you have people who are a bunch of energetic people who don't have a lot of ambition and they don't have any talent and they want to control people.

1:50:03And they don't like when people achieve a higher social status than them or economics that they get angry. Why not me? There's a lot of that. That's a part of what the whole appeal to socialism. Of course, there's like the beautiful appeal that like there's a lot of things that are socialist in this world that are great. Like the fire department is essentially a socialist establishment, right? We all pay for the fire department. We all agree that the fire department should act immediately when there's a fire. We're all paying to it and it's great. We can have other things like that too. That should be how education is.

1:50:34That should probably be how the police force is. That's all great. But as soon as you want a quality of outcome, you're ignoring a quality of effort. Right. It's, of course, some people are born rich. Of course, it's not fair. Of course, some people are born and broken homes and it's harder for them. Of course, the fucking games rigged. It's not fair. But everybody, even given the worst of circumstances, it's, they're at least not stopped from pursuing dreams. You see, in my life experience what I've learned, the fun part really more the fun part is the journey Less so the destination when I look back on the success I've had in different places in life like being the governor of Illinois That's so easy.

1:51:20Yeah, it was nice to be that and have that power and be able to do it for serve good purposes But it's more fun actually trying to get there working hard and overcoming the obstacles the quest Yeah, and the competition of it all right the quest in any aspect of life. I think it's frankly embraced the quest. And if you love what you're doing, you pursue what you love. Success will ensue. You don't have to chase success. Just be great at what you do. Hopefully. There's no hold fast rules, but hopefully. You know what? Yeah, well said, but even if you don't have success, the fact that you gave your best at something should be success, a version of success that you can be happy with.

1:51:54For sure, at least you learn from that and maybe you could apply those lessons to other things. It's like it's not like there's an end to this. And everybody wants to look at it like there's some sort of a finish line. I'm telling you, it's not real. There's no finish line. It doesn't exist. You should just enjoy this moment and enjoy the whole process of whatever you're trying to do in life. Because there's never going to be a time where you're like, I do it. It's over. That's not real. I'm here to tell you, someone who's at the number one podcast for like six years or something like that, it's not real.

1:52:25There's no end. There's no mood. It doesn't exist. And if it does exist, you're missing out on the whole point. The point is you're supposed to be getting better all the time at everything you do. Yeah, that's right. It's a constant thing. That's right. Physically, there's going to come a point in time when you can't really get better at things because you're getting old. But you can still do it mentally. You can still learn more. You can still pursue hobbies and interests and dreams and things that stimulate you and work towards stuff. It's a better way to live your life. And you know, some people never get a chance to understand that.

1:52:55And you go through your whole life and maybe you're following the guru who's the gay porn star and then you know And then all of a sudden you realize like I've wasted my experience here I've got having learned from it. I haven't grown from it I don't have anything to show for all my time here. I've just been making mistake after mistake and I never really figured out how to control my mind And I never really figured out how to discipline myself into action and and here I am never figured out puzzles and here I am Fuck you know, and those are the people that want the quality of outcome Those are the people who want equity.

1:53:27Those are the people that want to shut all the, look, there's a lot of hedge fund people that are pretty creepy. There's a lot of billionaires that are doing change. And a lot of shit, of course. Right, and it's not to deny that. I mean, for sure we should keep an eye on people who want to change the weather for sure. But at the end of the day, we're all just supposed to be human beings with an opportunity to try to succeed. It doesn't mean everybody's going to succeed. That's what's so crazy about this open -ended to agree that you have with life. You don't know what's coming up. You don't know what's next.

1:53:58It's just like how do you respond to it when it happens? And for you, it's one of the most difficult things that a person could go through. And especially because you feel you were innocent. No, yeah. And so I have purpose in life at this stage. They took everything from me. They passed laws saying I can't run for anything in Illinois. Believe it or not, just me. It's unconstitutional. I can't. You could probably run in Vegas and win. You could be the king of Vegas. I said there is it's a good place I I hear they would love you here you could totally be the king of Vegas, but you know I could I have a new beginning all a lot of my friends are retired now, you know, and they're They're retired and that's fine But I'm excited about this new beginning.

1:54:38I've had it's I'm Yeah, there's I could run for federal office I could run for president of the United States, but I can't run for alderman in the city of Chicago I'm not going to mention that. Damn, you're missing out on an awesome gig. Wow. That's crazy. But I have something to get up every day and chase. You know I'm lucky that way. Have any desire to be in politics anymore? Is it just too gross or how do you think about it now? My wife who is a remarkable person. I think about all these different heroes that I've known, that I've read about in history books. I think about my wife in her quiet way.

1:55:14Her heroism, how she kept her home, you know, raised our daughters. They're both good kids, our daughters. My older daughter Amy's a therapist, good education. She would like me to advocate for the Puppy Protection Act. I told her I'd try to get it on. What's the Puppy Protection Act? Protects puppies. We love dogs. It's something that have your listeners consider the Puppy Protection Act. How does it protect puppies? I don't know, but it's gotta be good. I haven't didn't read it. She's just asking. But to me, that sounds like the Patriot Act. Well, it's gotta be good. You're right. Bernie Sanders was right on that.

1:55:44He was the only one who voted against that. I'm looking at him when that happened because I was with him in Congress then. Well, they named it their Patriots. Yeah. How do you going to say no to that? I know. But the name of the Puppy Protection Act. Right. It's got a good chance of passing with a name like that. What's in there? And a younger daughter, she's a, she's a big Tedder Swift fan of Swiftie. They both are, but they're good kids. They're honest kids. They do good in school like their mother. She raised them great without a father. and they've suffered through the politics in my career and so public and the name is not a common name Blagoje which there's just not a lot of us here there are in Serbia but not in America.

1:56:21So everybody knows who their dad is you know in the political context. So my wife Patty, you'll find this interesting. Two days after I was arrested which was the night of December 2008, The Thursday that week Vegas was betting they were taking bets One of the odds the first lady of Illinois is gonna leave the governor of Illinois I have to just got arrested and it was nine to one she was gonna leave Wow and she not only defied those odds, but she defied the stats which is could she bet on it? Looking back we should have oh I know oh my goodness, but you know, it's so much money just like I don't get your bank accounts cross my go champ Across my mind actually but that's what prevented me from me from pursuing that they might criminalize that yeah, that's good question But when a guy's in prison for more than four years especially when he has a long time in prison It more than 90 % of the cases the wife for the significant other leaves.

1:57:14Yeah, so patty to fight all the odds She's made it abundantly clear if I ever run for office again. I'm doing that with my second wife You don't have to. You know, in this day and age, what are you going to do other than this book? Well, I do different work. I do some business stuff. I try to, I'm actually trying to do some public awareness on issues that are important, like some criminal justice reform stuff, because I've learned a hard way. How just unjust the system is. And there is a bias in the criminal justice system that disproportionately is impacted the black community and it grossly unfair way.

1:57:46Have you ever seen any of my podcasts that I've done with Josh Dubin? No, but I'm gonna tell me about that. That's from a Justice Reform. Yes. Okay. His main objective and just through the podcast that we've done multiple people have been released. Yeah. See, that's for you. He's always highlighting these like fucked up cases where people are innocent and like massive corruption and the prosecutor's office like, yeah, you hear about these things are so heartbreaking. Like you just can't believe that someone would be willing to have people go to jail for 25 to life for something that they know is a lie.

1:58:21Right. But you see it over and over and over again. Right. The more common thing, Joe, is the over -sentencing part of it. Those eight years in prison, I mean, the overwhelming number of the guys I was with, they did it. They were guilty. The prosecutors got it right. What they got wrong was, the sentences are ridiculously unfair and wrong and they don't match up. And you got a non -violent offender who first time did something wrong, whether it's a bank robbery or a drug offender, whatever it might be. And I've given these guys 15, 20, 25 years because they have these one size fits off sentencing guidelines that the politicians pass.

1:58:59But every case is different. Every person's different. Their backgrounds are different. Their cause, the reasons for doing things, they're different. So the system's broken in the sense that they don't take into account other considerations than just these formulas they follow. And so as a result you got these people disproportionately black but not exclusively who are doing these long sentences for first -time offenses Trump pardoned a woman named Alice Marie Johnson first -time nonviolent offender drugs They gave her a life sentence. It was probably a lot of drugs a life sentence and after 20 years Trump pulled her out saved her And a lot of this came from the 1994 crime bill that Joe Biden sponsored and Bill Clinton passed the Democrats that this is the black community Yeah, so I think I do something that and then I my father came from Serbia And I'd like to try to do what I can to raise public awareness about the place of Serbia in the Balkans because it's a country that we bombed in 1990, the United States and NATO bombed Serbia without the United Nations approval.

1:59:55The way Russia is invaded Ukraine and Serbian because we bombed Serbia because they were trying to force the Serbian government to give up a part of their country, Kosovo, give it up. That would be like NATO bomb threatening to bomb us to say give up taxes to Mexico and the Serbian government said We're not going to do it. And so the United States decided to bomb them if they didn't sign an agreement that was made in France called the Ramblai agreement that would have put it up to a referendum. Now, close to really that simple, there's more to everything, but the complication is the geopolitics of Europe and the Middle East because Serbia is in the Balkans is sort of a gateway to the Middle East.

2:00:36It's in Europe, but it's a gateway to the Middle East and a lot of the political dynamics international air at play there. But the Serbs and the Serbian people were allies with the United States in both world wars. They love America. They want to improve relations with America today after that we bombed them. The Clinton administration did that. What took that part of their country away? What did they bombed? They bombed Belgrade. They bombed all the big cities. They just indiscriminately bombed the cities. Yeah, military bases. The electrical grid, they bombed military bases. This was May of 1999.

2:01:071989 and I went I was a young congressman there I was the only served there's serves her a small group of the United States and they don't have any political clout But Jesse Jackson the Reverend Jackson and I went there because three American soldiers were taken prisoner by the Serbs during the war and No one knew what was going on with those those soldiers and so Reverend Jackson had this stature and he was close to Clinton and he Went there I went there because I speak the language because my father came from that country and I was able to assist him in getting the release of the three soldiers.

2:01:41This was the Milosevic government at the time. We got the soldiers home. What I like to talk about with regard to Serbia is it's a country in the Balkans that follows the Judeo -Christian tradition. It's very much like Israel in the sense that it's in a place where they're standing up for those sorts of things and the Serbs have felt very betrayed by the United States for choosing to be on the side of countries that were with the excess and with the Nazis in World War II. And those wars down in the Balkans and throughout Europe are wars of ethnic cleansing. All the sides do it. There's no one side that is crystal clean on those issues.

2:02:25They're fighting for borders and they're fighting for villages and places where historically one group claims they had a claim to and another group claims they had a claim to. These are complicated issues. But the United States decided to pick sides and force this country to give up a part of their country with a lot of significant religious monuments there. And this government that's there today very much wants to reopen relations with the United States and have better relations It's a growing economy. They're doing very well economically because they're good hardworking people and it's interesting in a poll recently of European countries In this presidential election Trump versus Kamala Harris the Serbian people had the highest support of Trump something like 59 % of the Serbian populace supported Trump in the last election better than any other European country.

2:03:17And so whatever I can do to be helpful to my, you know, the place my father came from. I'm American born, my mother was American born. Sounds like you're bucking for an ambassador to Serbia. Oh no. Oh no, I'm not. What if he gave it to you? Would you take it? Unlikely. No, unlikely. No, unlikely. No, unlikely. No, I'm not. No, only if he said to me, look, I really need you, which he won't do. He's going to sit you down with a burger king. No, he's in a big match, right? Is it in the middle of McDonald's? Yeah, sit you down. Yeah, like McDonald's. But there's a new opportunity with Trump and his administration to rethink sort of our policy and some of those old relationships.

2:03:52You understand politics far more than most. What difficulties do they face in implementing real change? So there's all these ideas, the doge, idea, the Department of Government Efficiency, RFK taking over HHS, right? Health and Human Services? So it is and so then cash potato the FBI Tulsi gathered what is her She's the director of national intelligence. Yeah, that's a huge huge huge position. Yes, so They all have these ideas to eliminate corruption or at least mitigate it and Root out all the bad actors and find out what weren't wrong, right? What what's in the way of that? What would stop them from being able to do all that?

2:04:38You're talking about an almost immutable object. You're talking about the deep state. You're talking about entrenched interests within government and outside of government. You're talking about what I call the political industrial complex. It exists in Washington. It exists in state governments like in Springfield, Illinois. It's the usual people. And the two parties are split on some issues, but they play the game within certain parameters. and if somebody wants to think outside the box and challenge that and actually try to shake that up and change the priorities of how it operates, frankly to actually benefit the people more because the mindset there, and I know this because I was a congressman for six years and I was a governor for six years, the mindset isn't what we can do for the people back home.

2:05:23The mindset really is what the people back home can do for us and for all the different special interest groups that operate and are lunching up on this system. This is very real. It's very real and every part of government, it's very real and the military industrial complex, which is something Talsie Gabbard and Hexeth and the others who, if they get their positions, are going to be addressing. The weaponized Department of Justice, very real, I'm living his testament to that and so was Trump, very real. The bureaucracy that's entrenched, that you have a hard time moving, these government employees, many of whom now are even going to the office, they're working from home, they are entrenched, they're hard to move.

2:06:00So this is going to be real hard. It's going to be constant war. They're going to fight back and they get to keep trying to do the Trump what they've been doing. And I think the opportunity for the Trump administration for President Trump is the first six to six months to a year because this time he has a bit of a honeymoon with the voters. He didn't get that in 2016, but this time he has it. He's got winded his back because that was a mandate. Happy that he won. Yeah, it was a mandate. He's got that. But he's going to get no honeymoon from the Democrats and traditionally presidents get even the other party will give them the first three to six months before they start pissing all over them.

2:06:35You know what I mean? Trump and Lincoln are the only two presidents who never got a honeymoon in Lincoln's case. The Southern states has seated and left. Trump wasn't quite that bad But no one's been treated as a new president. It's terribly as Trump has been treated by the Democrats in Washington because he's a real threat to change things. And he's a guy who's actually trying to keep his promises. And these appointments, they're very different, they're very unusual, but they show he learned the lesson that you can't trust those Washington insiders because they'll infiltrate your government. And they'll be the ones who will try to like, not carry out your orders.

2:07:06You know what you really can't trust? Yeah. The people who make the polls. That's right. Those lucky people are, they might as well be psychics. They might as well be that person with the neon sign. It's reading cards. Yeah. You guys were so off that it was so wild because people were so emboldened by them being so off You know, I'm sure you've seen a lot of these hilarious videos of Democrats who are absolutely sure she was gonna win We're gonna win this and they're all fired up and cocky and hoot and hollering and Making fun of people and then bam. You see this landslide I'm pretty good at patting myself on the back.

2:07:42I was in that business. So I'm gonna pat myself on the back I called it, I think I didn't tuck her. And even before that, I was saying, Trump was gonna sweep all the battleground states. But I thought it was gonna be a lot closer because I thought, you know, until she kept making blunders. Like, if she just never did any interviews and just only did speeches like that first one that she did, that first one she did, like, if you got something to say to me, say it to my face, the whole place goes nuts and you're like, whoa, like she was young and energetic that it can compare us into him, like, oh my God.

2:08:15And then they all got behind her. And you see all the wind behind the sails of the media. They were all moving in March step. They were all marching together. Ciao, ciao, ciao. They were all telling us, she's the best. She's number one. She's gonna fix it. And I thought it was working. I really did. I was like, this might work. Yeah. Which is I was fascinated to see. I was fascinated to see the whole machine turn in support of her. The people that had mocked her approval rating is just six months ago. They're making fun of her and how she's largely been quiet and then all of a sudden she's our answer.

2:08:47Yeah That was propaganda was wild. Yeah, it was wild. They were propping her up. It was really thin They did that with Obama. They got away with it then they propped this guy up to be this demigod that he's not Do you see Jill Biden? Duncan on her yeah, and that speech today was it today? I think it was yesterday. She's talking about joy. Is that the one? Oh my god It's amazing. Jill Biden subtly does a Kamala Harris impression and the audience knows it and the audience starts laughing Yeah, which is just like what I want to be a fly on the wall I would have loved to see how that like is essentially a coup went down.

2:09:27Yes, right Is the first time ever someone who didn't get elected through a primary? right is somehow or another the representative for the Democratic Party. It's a little kind of dangerous if you really think about it in that regard. That's kind of dangerous. You're right. And it's lies. It's based on lies. It's not the world of people. Not the world of people and they're just lying to you. Lying to you. They're hoping that your compliance that you show through COVID and everything else that's right. They're hoping that's going to go along with this and you're just you're not going to stand up and go, Hey, why don't you have a primary?

2:10:00You know, what about Shapiro. What about all these different people? What about them running? Let's see what their solutions to these things are. She's already said she's not going to do anything different. This is kind of crazy. What are we doing? Right. They took away the rights of the people and the Democratic voters could choose their nominee. There's this one in the back room. Crazy video of this poor girl. She's hysteric and she's talking to Kamala Harris and Kamala Harris is talking to her and she's like, don't worry, we're going to win. We're going to win and she's like saying this to this poor girl, like college girls, like full of anxiety, and I'll freak out and just, I just get so upset when I watch that because like, what got in your head that got you thinking that some horrific end to women's rights is coming?

2:10:50What happened? I'll tell you what happened. You've been lied to over and over again by the establishment, Democrat Party, and their allies in the media that that was a that's a very serious threat. My daughters are fearful of some of this and that Donald Trump is this rotten guy and he's not those things. They've been demonizing him for so long and this is on purpose this is part of the political strategy and Eventually most of the people saw through it and you don't give yourself enough credit But when you had Trump on here and then you eventually made your decision You swayed a lot of people who made a real difference in that election.

2:11:27So thank you for that because I think that's part of saving America before America could become great again. Which is a good thing, isn't it? Why wouldn't America want to be great again? Well, it certainly should be. I mean, it's all... And it is great, isn't it? Why do the Democrats seem to think America is not so great? We've had a lot of problems. There's wrongs in our history, of course, in the the original sense of slavery, Jim Crow and segregation, and the treatment of Black people in America. That's all very real. They've been screwed. But, despite of it all, this is a country that offers the opportunity we talked about and corrects those mistakes.

2:12:00The problem I think is some respects today with the Democrat Party is now it's a question of reversing. It's no longer let's judge people but not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. Now it's... Let's over correct. That's over correct. Exactly. I think it's a cult. I really do. And I think the Republicans didn't do themselves any justice by reversing Roe v. Wade because I think Like wanting that reversed is what put this fear in everyone that you're coming after women's reproductive rights. That men based on religious ideals are going to tell women what to do with their bodies.

2:12:39That didn't happen, I think it would have been an even bigger victory for Trump. Because I think that was one of the most important subjects for women. It was one of the most important things that they were willing to draw the line on. because they know where that goes. They don't, as soon as you let someone have control over what you can and can't do with your body, just like, just to a smaller standpoint, like we've talked about with COVID, with so many different things, when people have power and control over people, they abuse it and they manipulate it. And if you, all the sudden, have laws, so whether these were unfounded fears or not, women were worried that people would get data from their fertility apps, right?

2:13:22So you have ovulation apps and these ovulation apps you've you say when you had your period and it keeps track of when When you're ovulating That if a woman had one of those apps and was living in a state because Roe v. Wade's been reversed where abortion is illegal and then she travels To another state and has an abortion that she could be prosecuted based on the laws of the state which is To me that's terrifying. I agree with people that kind of power over other people especially if they're doing something that's legal in that state. The whole idea of states rights is supposed to be, first of all, we're all, we don't need passports to travel from state to state.

2:14:00But every state is essentially almost like a little different country that speaks the same language. This is a very different country than California. I lived in both places. There's other places, New York's a very different country than this, but we all agree that we can travel back and forth. So then you leave me the fuck alone. If I'm not, you don't know what I'm doing in this state and I don't want you check. If someone has a miscarriage and then they go visit a state that has abortion laws and then they get visited by jack booted Thugs that think that they're going to pose and put some girl in jail to send a message.

2:14:31Yeah, that's fucking terrifying And that I think cost a lot of votes and maybe it's a wrong perception. Maybe it's an extreme version of it And I'm exaggerating, but I don't trust people. I don't trust people that have power over people And I think the less power people have over people the better. I think if you want people to have less abortions make more birth control available, make it available everywhere. You know, education, but that's not gonna help because kids are crazy. You get horny, you go nuts. But there's a lot of people that make mistakes that if a man could get pregnant, if men could get pregnant, I always said abortion would be an app on your phone.

2:15:10We would have them into the gas station. We'd get abortions everywhere. Like there would be no babies. It's, you know it's a very complicated decision for someone to make and you know Joe Biden ironically said it best a long time ago he said abortion should be legal and rare. I kept a long history as a democratic governor and congressman supporting a woman's right to choose I haven't changed my view on it about huge Trump supporter but I haven't changed my view on it for the same reason that you just explained not to mention the fact who who am I as a man? That's what gets what she could do with her body.

2:15:49It gets so complicated. Yeah, no, I just very complicated. And the people on the other side, the pro -lifers, these are good people who I generally believe that this is the killing of a baby. What Roe v. Wade had said in his decision, you know, it broke it down into the trimesters. And within the first trimester, that's a life in being, but it's not a human being. And that's always seems sensible to me. But the idea of government doing what you just described, can you imagine a guy like me who's gone through what I've gone through with the government What it did to me into my family? That being sympathetic to what you just said about the fear women have.

2:16:25It's very very real I don't think you should let the government ever be involved in the choices you make with your body Yeah, I don't think that and I understand the pro -life perspective. Yeah, I get it I get you know I've talked to very intelligent reasonable people that believe that life begins at the moment of conception right in the case of race right I don't agree with you, but I understand where you're coming from. I could put myself in your mindset and I could see that. I could see how you would think that. I could see how you'd say, two wrongs, don't make a right. I could see it. I just don't agree with it.

2:16:56I don't agree with it because I would not want to be a woman carrying a rapist baby. I don't give a fuck what you say. If you want to impose that on a person because you have a different set of beliefs than a person, where does that end? Where does that end? You know? Yeah, that's right. It gets fucking weird. It gets weird when you let people control people. Think about how many people are yelling at people to wear a mask outside. Where's your mask? People are fucking weird, man. When you give them any kind of control over people, I don't trust them. And that's not like a pro abortion position.

2:17:30That's a pro I don't trust people and their decision making ability. And they're abusive power decisions. That's right. That is. That's my position. Yeah, and a lot of those people who were demanding those masks and would deny your right to choose whether you have a vaccine or not. The same ones who are very much pro choice when it came comes to a woman's right to choose, but they don't apply the same standard to other things. I know it's so funny. And it's that inconsistency. My body is a much choice. Yeah, right. Right. Exactly. Which I agree with with fucking everything. Right. You know, if you want to get face tattoos, I wouldn't recommend it.

2:18:02I have a bunch of friends that have face tattoos. Yeah, I don't know. I jelly rolls got a bunch of them. I love that guy to death. Post Malone's got a bunch of them. I love that guy to death. Listen, I did all those years in prison with the guys like that How do nice guys are face tattoos and many fighters? I know it face tattoos. Yeah, fucking great guy Sean O'Malley shout out to my man Sean face tattoos. Awesome guy. There's a guy in prison named Crow He was clearly a Dodgers fan. How did I know you'd I tattoo Dodgers right on top of his head and I sank to this guy You know about a hundred and ten others at the GED graduation with my prison fan G.

2:18:30Rod of the jailhouse rockers Oh, wow, that's hilarious. Did you record anything? No, they didn't allow that But that's too bad. That would have been amazing tapes. Yeah, get that on the internet. But you couldn't allow that. You couldn't get that in. You know, let them have YouTube channels. But I had to, you know, great. That would be YouTube jail channels. YouTube, look, tell the jail. Listen, you can make profits off of this. Why don't you split the profits with the immense? No, you got, look, I met a lot of guys. A lot of these guys are not bad guys. They broke the law and they should be held accountable and have justice but also mercy and a chance at a second chance.

2:19:08Also mercy and redemption. Absolutely. So, please let's have more of that. We don't have enough of that. Rehabilitation. Whatever happened to that? These some of these guys have such good hearts. There was this bank robber in prison, Michael Torres. Good guy. His name is Sox. Rob DeBank. Could he put Sox over his face when he robbed the bank? Is that why? You know, I don't know that. I have a chapter about him because I taught history with him. He loved general grants. He wanted to be a lecturer in my civil war history class But what he did was he robbed a bank in central California appreciate this his father was a penicostal minister Oh, he walks into this bank.

2:19:41It's father taught him to always respect the values of respecting your elders Okay, so he storms into a bank with an assault weapon shouting motherfuckers everybody go to the side I'm robbing his fucking bank. I'll kill anybody and blow your heads off if you don't comply I get it. You don't follow my orders. You didn't say comply, right? So they all scatter around, but he spies out of the side of his eye. There's a little old lady in a corner trembling standing there. And at that point, he recognized her and he puts his bank robbery on pause, puts it on hold. And all of a sudden, he goes from this doctor, this Mr.

2:20:14Hyde character where he's screaming mother fucker with his assault weapon to a gentle doctor, you know, jacked, jacked Jackal, right? Goes to the woman. Combs are ensues or tells her, ma 'am, don't worry, this won't take too long. No one's gonna hurt you. I won't be long. Let me get you a seat. And so some guy's sitting in the chair and he says, get up, motherfucker, or I'll fucking blow your brains out. And he usheres her to the seat. Okay? Sits her down. Oh my god. Then it goes back to the back robbery. Gets all the money. Stopped by, says goodbye to her, leaves. Didn't plan his getaway so good.

2:20:49They get them within I don't know 10 15 minutes. It didn't take long. He's apprehended. He's got no defense There's all these witnesses saw it all so his lawyers correctly say we better just ask for mercy Don't even pretend you didn't do it. Please guilty prosecutors want 20 years in prison for socks, okay? And they're mostly always get what they asked for these federal prosecutors The defense lawyer recognized the judge was like 83 years old or something They bring this little old lady in as a witness in what they call mitigation, a mitigation witness to say that socks the bank robber had some good qualities.

2:21:24She tells us the story about how kind he was to her in the midst of this bank robbery and the judge gave him 10 years. So he's kind of the old lady in respecting the values of his father saved him 10 years and he was a great guy to do prison time with. But if you got due time in prison sucks, it was your kind of guy, fun. And he lectured in my class, and he talked about General Grandes, Shiloh, and he kept telling these guys, the motherfucker was a badass dude. This guy was a badass dude. That's hilarious. Yeah, there's good people that make bad choices. Yeah. Yeah, and we got to throw people away, that's crazy.

2:22:03There's so many people, I'm sure that you met that have a lot of potential. And I've met a lot of people that have been a jail that are amazing people. Amazing people. They're very resourceful, very enterprising, very smart. One of my favorite guests that I've ever had on is Freeway Ricky Ross. Tell me, is that the singer? No. No. It's the real one. The real Ricky Ross who was selling cocaine from getting it from the government and selling it in South Central Los Angeles and not even knowing like what he was a part of the funding the Contras versus the Sendinistas. Yeah. In the 80s. The whole all over North.

2:22:35Yeah. That's Freeway Ricky Ross. He was a legend. He was making millions every week every week millions of dollars couldn't read right couldn't read Was a tennis player really good tennis player, but not good enough to be pro, but illiterate goes to jail Becomes a lawyer in jail teaches himself to read go to a president or federal prison I believe it's federal prison. Yeah, okay. I believe it's federal prison Yeah, um, goes to jail and finds out that because he understands law that they had used the three strikes rule incorrectly. Oh, and that it's supposed to be three separate incidents of felonies.

2:23:14This was three felonies in one incident. Yeah. Right. And so he got off. Beautiful. He got himself out of jail. How long was he in? Oh, he's in a long time. How long is he really rickie Rossin? But he's the nicest guy. He's funny. He's like, you tell me this This guy didn't deserve a second chance. Yes, exactly. He's a young kid surrounded by drug dealers. That's true. The only people that had any money. Life sentence was reduced to 20 years. I think he did 20 years, got up in 2009. Wow. Where's he at now? He's back in LA. He just did the podcast recently. How long did he do it? Last year, I think.

2:23:51Was it last year? I feel like it was this year. Yeah, I know it was this year. What month? Six months ago. Six months ago. Yeah, you know what I'd like to do with my new beginning make enough money where we can have financial security for my family My long I was making six I was making sixty two dollars a year every year for eight years, right? I'm a lawyer. I went to law school like this why I get what are they paying for in jail? You know you get paid for I was a tutor for my first couple years in the higher prison You know when I got to the camp, you know orderly where you mop floors you sweep floors worked in the library for a while.

2:24:27I had all kinds of jobs. Worked in the gym. How rude is that? They give you a dollar a day. The worst job was in the kitchen. I write in the book about the day, it looked like I was going to go home in August 2019. Trump was pulling me out. But he was getting all this push back from the politicians. And he had a problem because he had called Zelensky and Ukraine. And the Democrats were going to pitch him over that telephone call, which was absolutely the right thing for him to do. because there was evidence, videotape evidence of Joe Biden talking about Barisma and Hunter Biden's son and prosecuting firing the prosecutor or he's gonna withhold a billion dollars of federal money, U .S.

2:25:03money to Ukraine. That's probably, perhaps probable cause of a crime, but it's at least reasonable enough for the law, the chief law enforcement officer, the president to ask this guy, would you look into it? That's all he did, name, peace, I'm over it. So now I'm on hold. But when it looked like I was coming out and it was I was literally transferred out of my camp and they said you're going home Trump's on the out sending you home I had to go back Understandably trumped it the right thing for political purposes It's the White House did but they put me back in the kitchen The one of the cops there felt like who's this guy think he is some like special inmate because the president almost pulled him out We're gonna show this ass all he ain't no big deal They put me back in the kitchen at a four o 'clock in the morning.

2:25:46You got to be there You broke your wake up at 330 washing pots and pans for eight hours a day. They call me the governor of the dish pit Yeah, so that paid 525 a month

2:26:01Crazy but here's what I like to do. I want to be successful big money I think they're good to have a best -selling book maybe God willing who knows I Like to meet your guy Rick Ross and others and I'd like to have a foundation that actually does something meaningful like maybe some sort of occasional training, culinary training for inmates who are coming home, have no opportunities to learn a skill that they don't teach in prison, but they should. And you should talk to Josh Dubin as well. Yeah, well yeah, you have to get a hold of him. I love that. I feel like that's my calling. I feel I should do that.

2:26:31Yeah, I'll connect you guys. I love that guy to death. And that's his main quest in life, you know, to help people. And then he's got so many stories of these people getting out and doing incredible things and helping other people as well. Turning it back around, giving back, trying to work and educate these young guys and also trying to stop them from doing bad things. Just give them some life skills so they can make good decisions instead of bad decisions because some people are just like there's a reality of being trapped by your circumstances. And if you have not experienced that, and I'm lucky I haven't, and I'm very fortunate, but there's a lot of people that do.

2:27:09And to discount that is fucking crazy and we take people and we just put them in cages and we forget about them And it's convenient for us and just lock them up just lock them lock everybody up like stop locking people up What we need to do is understand that we lock more people up than anybody anywhere and it doesn't make us safer What we got to do is get to the root of why so many people are getting locked up? Yeah, that's right We've ignored that we've ignored that we it's like we're we're constantly cutting cancerous tumors off If we're not going, hey, why do we keep getting cancer? Like, is there something we could do different?

2:27:41There's a lot we could do different. Think about the, just the money that we have sent to Ukraine. Imagine if that money just went to rehabilitating the cities in North America. There you go. What, how much good could you do with $200 billion in America in a year? You want to hear a real cynical thing about the Democratic Party? Don't forget, I was a Democratic governor. I was the first one to endorse Obama. I supported Nancy Pelosi in the house, okay? I support her stock trades. Yeah, I didn't know about any of those. She's got a Pelosi stock tracker. No. You're seeing it? Oh, no. So good. You're kidding.

2:28:14Yeah. Oh my God. I'm not really a stock market person. I don't pay attention. But I do know people that are very invested in the stock market. And Pelosi stock tracker is legit. Like, you could find out what she's buying. And you should buy it. That is really, really interesting. Well, if I wanted she's a really good stockbroker rod. I'm gonna do that tomorrow because I told you I want to she's super good at it Yeah, I don't know how she has the time Considering she's so busy serving the people but you know if she was just a pure Stock trader she probably the biggest of all time She's that good.

2:28:48Well probably now. She got it. No, I just know the inside information. She has it. No, no, no She's a psychic. She's got talent. Oh, she gets it. I got you. She gets it in any event We were talking about what criminal justice reform was talking about. Yes. Oh, in the black community, in particular, in the cynical part of the Democrat Party. And it really started here from a guy from this area here in Austin, Texas named Lyndon Johnson. And there were so many good things about his great society programs, but he was motivated by politics. Yes, there was poor people that we must help, but it wasn't just that.

2:29:24He said, this will ensure that we get the end vote for a whole generation. We'll get the info. He didn't say it like that. He said the whole word, right? Right. Right. And that's how the Democrats have approached the black community ever since. Yeah. And it's yes, we'll help only so much, but we're not going to give the tools, the means to be able to have the same kind of chance at opportunity in the economy where you can actually get up and get out of the neighborhood, get out of the hood, get out of the poverty and join the middle class, have a business, those sorts of practical things that most everywhere else in America, we have those chances, but ironically not in the black community because the Democrats don't want to leave.

2:30:04They cannot afford to lose 90 to 95 % of a safe vote for them if they're free. Well, I think they lost a lot of it during this election because a lot of black folks looked at all these illegal aliens that are coming in here getting all these benefits It's getting put up in the Roosevelt Hotel and getting free food and getting EBT cards and they were like what the fuck is this like what about us like there was a lot of people in Chicago That were up in arms about that. Yes, very real well that very right there 100 % correct This is like a hundred percent evidence that these people who are pretending to be on your side don't give a fuck about you There you go.

2:30:41That's the reality of it now if Trump can demonstrate that he gives a fuck right? It'll change the whole narrative if he can do real things while he's in office and he seems like a guy who's motivated to do real things. And just, if you could just get 10 % less people winding up in jail, imagine what that is. Imagine what that is. 10 % more people that are contributing to society. And that's a minor goal. That's like a totally doable thing. That's not unrealistic at all. But if you can get 10%, with 10%, probably would give birth to 20 or 30 eventually. I think people would recognize like, oh, there's a path that I can get my children into that will give them a real secure future outside of this.

2:31:20And then you've got to do something about low enforcement. You've got to mitigate all the gang activity and violence. You can't have people growing up thinking that violence is the way and that drug dealing is the way and shooting people is normal. You can't let that flourish and grow. You can't let that happen. And they for whatever reason have never fully addressed it. They've never addressed it with the kind of resources that we address so many of our problems because of the politics and the old Republican party they were fine with it. Just let the black community be where it is. Let the Democrats have all those votes and we'll just scare the shit out of white suburban nights.

2:31:57Tell them that those gang bangers and the South Side of Chicago are coming out to your suburb right? And they get votes that way. Trump is a very different guy and he's rebuilding this Republican party. It's a political realignment and he got more black votes than any Republican's candidate has gotten since 1976. He's still a long way from. Well, I think the whole he's racist narrative just died. It is such an outrageous accusation by project people that project because they're racist. Some of these Democrat policies, they're dressed up as being pro -black, are fundamentally anti -black. Look at the education issue.

2:32:29School suck. I went to public school in Chicago. I wasn't exactly setting the world down there. Instead of making the schools better, they lower the standards. And they just pump all kinds of money into it and they need money. But they don't deny a mother, a single mother with a young child in the black community. you're chance to have some some choice and where she might want to center child to school. So they're locked into that special interest politics and control of the teachers unions that have that kind of influence. So really, there should be some like real concerted effort to raise the standard of all schools, all of them like significantly.

2:33:02And again, I keep going to Ukraine, but if we're a country that's like, what are we, a trillion dollars, three trillion, how many trillions of dollars in debt are we, 39, whatever it is, whatever crazy. You know, that doesn't even sense my head. Yeah, whatever the number is. Right. How do we have so much money to send to all these countries in foreign aid? We just give a billion dollars to Africa in case they get hit by storms, you know, for natural disasters. What? How much would it cost? How much would it cost to fix every school in the country? How much would it cost? Would it cost? You can't be done.

2:33:34Okay. You tell me you can't be done with $39 trillion. If I gave you $39 trillion, do you think that you could fix every school in the country? I bet you could. I bet you have a lot of money left over. Okay. So let's forget the 39 trillion because that's ridiculous. But what's the number? How much would it actually cost to just with proper planning, a real strategy, and hire the best professionals you possibly can compensate them well with a goal entirely focused on fixing the education system in America? taking our standing where we are internationally, which is very low now, and raising it back up to the top.

2:34:12How do we do that? How much would it cost? Just help me out. Help me out. It's not insurmountable. Like if I said 39 trillion, you'd be like, yeah, you could definitely do it. Hey, you definitely pay people so much money. You can't do it for 39 trillion, you know why? Why? Because there's all kinds of entrenched obstacles that won't let you do the necessary reforms to make the teachers teach the kids better. Of course. Okay, so it's it's muddy as a part of it sure, but it is less of a part than actually Having some sort of system of accountability so that there's actually results that is it isn't Unfortunately in the education system at least in places like Chicago for example the public school system of which I come from It isn't the priority of that union the teachers union is less the children That's all about their members and the teachers.

2:35:01And so they resist any kinds of changes that would maybe make for the classroom environment to be more conducive to teach a child. Things like merit pay, which is controversial. But they resist even out of hand the chance that maybe you provide bonuses to teachers who are successful in raising up a child's test scores. And then test scores alone aren't the best evidence of whether or not a child is learning. So there's these complicated things. You have to have the money necessary to do it, but it doesn't have to be an astronomical sum. They've got to change the way they are teaching our children.

2:35:32And I think you can learn from other countries and see what other countries are doing successfully. And try to bring that here. The problem you get is the politics in America and the Democratic Party is controlled by many different interests, groups in the teachers unions, the education association. those unions have an unbelievable amount of sway and democratic candidates are afraid of them plus they need them to win. So the complications are more administrative than they are money and the concern of taxpayers that you keep throwing money, good money after money that's not working is a legitimate one.

2:36:08And I look, I got to done more on this issue when I was governor when I had that power. We put a lot of money to the schools but it was hard for me to be able to get accountability in the politics of it. So you think that even if there was some sort of executive order or some sort of bill that gets passed, where they concentrate entirely on raising the standard of education at whatever it costs. Like this is a priority for our country. The more people that we have that are highly educated, the less losers, the less crime, the less everything. The more people participate, the better the dream gets, the more competition there is, we all strive.

2:36:44Rising tide lifts all boats. Right. Let's fucking go. I love it. If they did that, you think the teacher's union would be the biggest impediment to actual success? The teacher's union would be the first place. But they see the way the special interest group in government, the special interest groups work in government is they build coalitions. So the teacher's union is a powerful group. By themselves, they would have a hard time stopping that, but they would enlist the support of other groups that they have supported in some of their issues. And suddenly you've got not just the teachers unions, but you've got the AFL CIO, you've got, the United Aura workers, you've got all these different unions lining up.

2:37:26And then couple that with some of the more progressive interest groups, the LGBTQ perhaps, the women, what's the pro -choice group that's planned parenthood, those organizations that have those alliances with the unions, even though their interests, their issues are far apart. The concerns they have are very different, and they don't match up, but they've got these coalitions. So you'd have to get over all of that in order to be successful, not to mention the fact that you've got natural resistance to significant change. But if you look at a pro place that's crying out for major reform, all you got to do is look at the performance of kids that come out of public schools and poor neighborhoods and say there's something really wrong here.

2:38:08And it's black kids who are disproportionately getting screwed. And then there's also the factor of their growing up in crime -ridden neighborhoods, and they're probably not getting enough nourishment. There's a lot of factors that would also inhibit your ability to even absorb information, the stress and the trauma. So what you really got to do is fix all that in cities. That's another thing. Like how much would it cost to significantly put a dent in crime in all cities and do it in a way where people didn't think you're sending the military in and it's up and you know, it's on a militarization of cities like do there's got to be a way to do it.

2:38:41How much would it cost? How much? Put some of that money towards more police and that's the other irony. But you need that gang bangers in Chicago outnumber police officers 75 to one and where's most of the crime? It's in those poor black neighborhoods. And they're 75 to one. Yeah. And the Democrats are, you know, mother fucking cops and police. So stupid. But not in their neighborhoods is where the crimes take place. It's in those poor neighborhoods, they're the victims of the crimes. It's so upside down, it's so wrong. You know what's happened? Because of the politics of things and their relationships, they ignored or actually butchered common sense.

2:39:19One of the things about the Trump administration that offers hope is that there'll be a restoration of common sense in terms of its approach to things. One of the good things about this last election and with podcasts like yours and these other alternative places where people can get information is that you can think outside the box and start to do new things that are different as opposed to the same old things that give the same old results. And I would suggest that if you want to stop crime and end the mass incarceration in America, educate the kids when they're young and give them a chance to have the skills they need so they can do something other than cell drugs.

2:39:57Absolutely. The question is how would you do it? If you were a part of the administration, if Donald Trump heard this conversation and said, you know what, I think he's right and I think we can do something about it. What would you do? I'm an educationer on something else. Well, it would first be, it's both of our connected right, crime and education, they're connected. Yeah. And the lowest income, most crime -ridden communities has the lowest education level. It's right. So they're annexed or really connected. See, without, you can't just deal with education without dealing with crime. So you'd have to do both.

2:40:30Right. I think I'm an expert at crime part of it. You know, because I've seen it from both sides. I've loved it both places. I think, you know, look, I'm happy to volunteer my services and to share my experience. But I think on the issue of weaponized prosecutors and the corruption of the DOJ, I think I don't think anybody knows that subject better than me. And I think I'm happy to provide any kind of free advice or suggestions I can have. So that's the job you want. But in addition to that, I would say. What job would you take? Like if you call it, what's the dream one? What's the dream conversation?

2:41:07No, well, it's not a job. You ask me, what would I do? What would I do? It isn't like a title that will allow you to do what you want to do. I don't know, but I'll just say, it isn't just that though. See, I think I can bring my own experience from the time I had in prison with my homies in there. Like I said, yeah, most of them all get it. You're like one of the few former governors with homies. Like the jet. You can say that honorically. If my friend spade, you know, Joe Nairmore is listening, shout out to Joe Nairmore, a Walter Hill or G Gregory Blaylock, drove to the other from South Side of Chicago.

2:41:37Imagine any other guy who is a former governor saying homies and having it be authentic. Was it authentic? 100%. So if you feel me, bro. Yeah, like for real, a guy who hadn't done time to say my homies like, shut the fuck up. Those guys you play pickleball with. Yeah, right. Shout out, but you have actual homies. Yeah, and I try to help them as much as I can now within my limited ability, but the way I can really help is I think I can bring a perspective on how merciless our criminal justice system is and how We do have a country of mass incarceration and how this woman a black woman wrote this best -selling book called the New Jim Crow And how it's an excuse on a reason that discriminates against black people based upon their felony convictions How they go to prison, but they're not guided to actually learn to skills that they could use one day when they get out of prison.

2:42:28All these things can be corrected. I feel like I can be helpful in something like that. I think you're the perfect person to ask us about how do you feel about private prisons? I don't know enough about all the details, but I'm very suspicious of that, the profit motive in private prisons. And a lot of the, for example, the commissary stuff that's been privatized, things along those lines. I don't know enough about that. My feeling is probably not, but maybe you can do some version of that by contracting out to some private companies to come in and educate inmates, which might be interesting. Bring some private companies in that could teach vocational training, particularly culinary skills, which is very much something that where you can get out of prison and have a chance to get a job, maybe get your own restaurant, start your own business.

2:43:17Practical things. privatize some of that, that might be worthwhile. That could work. But as it is right now, government doing it, they're not doing it. By the way, if you want to argue and against, you know, socialized medicine, and I believe healthcare is a human right, and I believe I was the healthcare governor, and I frankly think, Joe, even though I'm the only governor in teaching Illinois history, and they wouldn't even let my portrait up there in the state capital, I'm the only one. Really? I feel like I was the best governor in Illinois history for the shit that I did for regular people.

2:43:43Healthcare for every child, free public transportation for our seniors for the disabled. mammograms and pap smears for underserved women and if we find cancer we get treated and save their lives. This thing called open -rope tolling where commuters can go without having to pay tolls, they've got a transponder or they can go all across the country with the first in the country to do that. All kinds of stuff where an average citizen says, this governor blu -wavage did this for me. I can't think of a fucking thing any of my other governors have ever done for anybody I know. If you can think about what is the you know what is governor Rex done for me that I feel in real life.

2:44:15So I think I did those things. And it's a, but I, to brag out myself, I just got off message. What were we talking about? Well, we were talking about what would you do? What would be your dream job and helping along the lines of that and again, even volunteering. But you were talking about criminal justice reform because like who would know about it more than you? Correct. Yeah. Correct. A lot of sense. You got to go to Congress. you got to change those laws. You got to undo some of those guidelines because these judges are required by law to whack a guy because he fits certain criteria but they don't look at the other stuff in his life that this guy's never had a crime before that he's got a family that he's actually done good works.

2:44:56Those things don't take into consideration when they have these guidelines that the judges have to follow. They were pushed by prosecutors to give them the tools to go after criminal behavior. How much of an effort once you actually get inside is there to rehabilitate you? Almost none. Maybe none at all. None. It's adult babysitting. But is it all self -motivated? If you do want to improve yourself, it's self -motivated. Yeah. And there's resources where you can do that. I mean, there are places where you can learn not enough vocational stuff, not nearly enough. But you can do that. But there's no guidance in terms.

2:45:35Do you get counseling? Counseling yes, so that is guidance in some way. No, I mean like guidance what they don't teach anything They'll you know well in your situation You but they didn't teach the other guys. I mean I right that no enough about that to know that they weren't getting any kind of guidance The counselors are just giving you guidance on how to deal with the world we're in No, no motivation to try to improve yourself or to figure out why you got in there. Yeah, there's some motivation So for example, I'm saying a jailhust rock before 110 inmates who the day before I see in the yard all Muscled up.

2:46:10They're all big muscle guys. They got tats all over right and they got interesting hairstyles You know some of them food match you you know, they look like gangus con some of them right you got these racist Nazi guys with swastikas Tatted on them, right and they're all of a sudden in this particular day. They were in caps and gowns and hear me the former governor Villainot No Light once thought about believe it or not as a presidential candidate. I'm about to sing Jail House Rock to these guys right the warden there Oh my god, so crazy. We practiced for a year because it was a way to get your bind out of prison was Bracing music and they have a music room there with good acoustics and good and it was a guy who was Had the head of the music department in inmate the drug dude who was went to Berkeley the music school and Boston Really great musician his name's Ernie I don't want to say his last thing to embarrass him.

2:47:00Great guy. He was like my music mentor. And I learned that if you practice singing, I'm not a singer, but you can actually improve. And it was like a way where we would practice for hours a day where I wasn't in prison for those five hours, you know, focusing on trying to get good at something, right? So there we are a year later. We had auditioned and won the gig for the jailhouse rockers to perform before the GD graduates. And there's the warden, all the brass in the prison, 110 of these badass guys. I had an outside guest speaker to give a motivational speech. I'm stepping up about this thing in my first song by Clint Black called a Better Man.

2:47:36We even hear a Better Man, you hear that song? Country song. No, for how? Yeah. But before I do, I catch the warden, and I had been told sometime before that the warden has the power in a federal prison under certain circumstances where he could actually release an inmate without the court. And in one particular case, some guy was slicing up another inmate, almost killed him and a third inmate intervened and stopped the fight and saved the guy's life. The aggressor got more criminal charges against him and got sent to an even higher prison. The victim thanked goodness survived, fucked up, he was bloodied up and all of that.

2:48:15But the third party they intervened, the peacemaker, saved a life, the warden sent him home. Wow. He had the power to do that. So I was told this. Now suddenly I'm about to sing Jail Haas right? Right? There he is. I figure I think I'll go off the program and have lived a little bit because I've been on stage before I don't do that so look at the word and I say I like to dedicate this song to the warden. Please Release me let me go because I don't want to be here anymore Right that's hilarious. Nobody left. He would have nobody left the warden staring at me that all the inmates don't know what the man They were afraid to laugh, you know.

2:48:54That's hilarious. But GED is one way where you can get a reduction, you can get good time. So you can spend a little less time in prison, I'll give you maybe, I don't know, several months or maybe a year off your sense or something. So there are some in sense. So there's, okay. Yeah, something like that. There should be more than. Yeah, listen man, you had a wild life and I'm glad you're out. Thank you. And I'm glad I listened to you on Tucker and I got a different sense of who you were than what the narrative was that I saw over the media. Yeah, obviously I don't know what happened, but I think you're good, dude.

2:49:28I enjoy talking to you. I appreciate you, Joe. God bless you. Congratulations. Thank you, guys. And this book, is it done? Is it almost done? Yeah. You have a publisher? We kind of glossed over that a little bit. Yeah, so it's a vindication publishing. I own a little publishing company. I've pre -sold 8 ,000 books, so far so good. The reason I have to do it myself is the New York publishers don't like to get. Good Trump stuff. I do have an audio version that you're going to do? I'm going to do an audio version. You'll do it right? Absolutely. Alright, that's good. Alright, thank you. Thank you very much.

2:49:59Bye everybody.