#2255 - Mark Zuckerberg

27:08Because this was the administration where Trump was famously kicked off of Twitter. That was a huge issue like after January 6th. Like they removed the, at the time the sitting president was kind of crazy to remove that person from social media because you've decided that he incited a riot. So for him, without free speech, without people, without podcasts, without social media, they probably wouldn't have had a chance because the mainstream narrative other than Fox News was so clearly against him. The majority of the television entities and print entities were against him, the majority of them.

27:51So if without social media, without podcasts, they don't stand a chance. So they're uniquely aware of the importance of giving people their voice, free speech. But you do have to be careful about misinformation. And you do have to be careful about just outright lies and propaganda complaints or propaganda campaigns rather. And how do you differentiate? Well, I think there are a couple of different things here. One is this is something where I think X and Twitter just did it better than us on fact checking. We took the critique around fact checking, sorry, around misinformation. We put in place this fact checking program, which basically empowered these third party fact checkers.

28:30They can mark stuff false. And then we would down right in the algorithm. I think what Twitter and X have done with community notes, I think it's just a better program. Rather than having a small number of fact checkers, you get the whole community to weigh in when people usually disagree on something, tend to agree on how they're voting on a note. That's a good sign to the community that this is, there's actually a broad consensus on this and then you show it. And you're showing more information, not less. So you're not using the fact check as a signal to show less. You're using the community note to provide real context and show additional information.

29:07So I think that that's better.

29:12For when you're talking about like nation states or people interfering, a lot of that stuff is best rooted out at the level of kind of accounts doing phony things. So you get like, whether it's like China or Russia or Iran or like one of these countries, they'll set up these networks of fake accounts and bots. And they coordinate and they post on each other's stuff to make it seem like it's authentic and kind of convince people it's like, wow, a bunch of people must think this or something. And the way that you identify that is you build AI systems that can basically detect that those accounts are not behaving the way that a human would.

29:51And when we find that, that there's like some bot that's operating an account. How do you differentiate? How do you figure that out? It just, I mean, there are some things that a person just would never do. Right. So have you met Lex Friedman? Yes. Yeah, yeah. He might not be. Well, but is he going to pass your turn? Yeah, no, is he going to take him? Is he going to make a million actions in a minute? It's like, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, it's, it's more subtle than that. I think like these guys are pretty sophisticated and it's an adversarial space. So, so we find some technique and then they, they basically kind of update their, their techniques.

30:30But, but we have a team of their, it's effectively like intelligence, counterintelligence folks, counterterrorism folks, AI folks who are building systems to identify. What are these accounts that are just not behaving the way that people would? And how are they interacting? And then sometimes you, you, you trace it down and sometimes you get some tips from different intelligence agencies. And then you can kind of piece together over time. It's like, oh, this network of people is actually some kind of fake cluster of accounts. And that's against our policies. And we just take them all off. But what, how are you sure?

31:09Like, is there a 100 % certainty that there were, that you are definitely getting a group of people that are bad actors? Or is it just people that have unpopular opinions? No, I don't think it's that for this. I think, um, but what I'm saying is how do you determine? Yeah. Like, how do you do at what percentage of accuracy are you determining? Do you ever accidentally think that people that are going to get moderated or actually just real people? Um, yes. I think that's, I think for the specific problem around these like large coordinated groups doing kind of like election interference or something.

31:47It's a large enough group. We have like a bunch of people analyzing it. It's like they study it for a while. I think we're probably pretty accurate on that. But I actually think one of the bigger issues that we have in our moderation system is this precision issue that you're talking about. And that is actually of all the things that we announced this week in terms of how we're going to update the content policies, changing the content filters to have to require higher confidence and precision is actually going to be the thing that reduces the vast majority of the censorship mistakes that we make.

32:21Right. The, um, you know, the, the removing the fact checkers replacing them with community notes. I think it's a good step forward. Like a very small percent of content is fact checked in the first place. So it's, is that going to make the huge difference? I'm not sure. Um, I think it'll be a positive step though. Um, and we, we like opened up some content policies. So some stuff that was restricted before we opened up. Okay, that's good. It'll mean that some set of things that might have been censored before or not. But by far the biggest set of issues we have, and, and you and I have talked about a bunch of issues like this over the years is like, it's just.

32:55Okay. You have some classifier that's, it's trying to find say like drug content, right? People decide, okay, it's like the opioid epidemic is a big deal. We need to do a better job of cracking down on drugs and drug sales. Right. I don't want people dealing drugs on our networks. So we build a bunch of systems that basically go out and try to automate finding people who are, who are dealing with, who are dealing drugs. And then you basically have this question, which is how precise do you want to set the classifier? So do you want to make it so that the system needs to be 99 % sure that someone is, is dealing drugs before taking them down?

33:32Uh, do you want it to be 90 % confident, 80 % confident? And then those correspond to amounts of, um, you know, I guess that the statistics term would be recall what percent of the bad stuff are you finding? So if you require 99 % confidence, then maybe you only actually end up taking down 20 % of the bad content. Um, whereas if you reduce it and you say, okay, we're only going to require 90 % confidence. Now maybe you can take down 60 % of the bad content. But let's say you say, no, we really need to find everyone who is doing this bad thing. And it doesn't need to be as severe as, as dealing drugs.

34:09It could just be, um, I mean, it could be any, any kind of content of any kind of category of harmful content. Um, you, you start getting to some of these classifiers might have 80, 85 % precision in order to get 90 % of the bad stuff down. But the problem is if you're at, you know, 90 % precision, that means one out of 10 things that the classifier takes down is not actually problematic. And if you filter, if you, if you kind of multiply that across the billions of people who use our services every day, that is millions and millions of posts that are basically being taken down that are innocent.

34:48And, and upon review, we're going to look at and be like, this is ridiculous that this thing got taken down, which I mean, I think you've had that experience and we've talked about this for a bunch of stuff over time. And, um, but it really just comes down to this question of where do you want to set the classifiers? So one of the things that we're going to do is basically set them to be, um, to be require more confidence, which is this trade off. It's going to mean that we will maybe take down a smaller amount of the harmful content, but it will also mean that we'll dramatically reduce the amount of people whose accounts we're taking off, um, for a mistake, which is just a terrible experience, right?

35:24It's like, okay, you're going about your day. And then one day you wake up and you're like, oh, my WhatsApp account just got deactivated because it's connected to a Facebook account. And the Facebook account, um, is, uh, is, is, or like I'm, I'm using on the same phone as a Facebook account where, uh, like we made some enforcement mistake and thought you were doing something bad that you weren't because our classifiers were set to too low of precision. Has that happened before? Yeah. Where their WhatsApp app got canceled as well. Yeah. Cause I mean, there are, there are a lot of your Facebook app gets taken out.

35:57Like I say, if you have a Facebook, and you have like a sock puppet account and the sock puppet account, you post offensive memes and you're generally gross. Yeah. If that, if you get caught for that, does your WhatsApp get killed? Not for memes, but, but go back to like a very severe thing. Like let's say someone is, um, let's say the most severe. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Let's say someone is, is like terrorist content. They're planning some attack. Right. So we take down their account. Right. But then let's say that person can just go then sign up with another account. When I think like, you know, how does WhatsApp get connected to that though?

36:31Oh, well, if it's, I mean, we run these different services. And if they're on the same phone, it's basically, you know, it's one thing that, you know, it's basically regulators or governments will come to us and say, okay, it's, you're clearly not doing enough if you kick someone off for terrorism and then they can just like sign up for another account on the phone. Right. Okay. You're also, they also think, okay, well, we're not doing enough if we deactivate their Facebook account because they're like planning a terrorist attack, but we let them use all our other services. Right. If you're aware.

36:59Yeah. So if we, if our systems think that someone is a terrorist, then you probably need to deactivate their access to all the different accounts. Yeah, they can't get on threads. It's just not threads Instagram. Yeah. Yeah. So that makes sense. So it's, you can understand how you get there, but then you just get to this question around the precision and the confidence level. And then you're, you're just making all these mistakes at scale. And it's just unacceptable. But I think it's, it's a very hard calculation of like, where do you want to be? Because on the one hand, like, I get it, why people kind of come to us and they're like, no, you need to do a better job finding more of the terrorism or the drugs and all the stuff.

37:42But over time, the technology will get better and it'll get more precise. But at any given point in time, that's the choice that we have to make is do we want to make more mistakes, airing on the side of just like blowing away innocent people's accounts? Right. Or do we want to get a higher, a somewhat higher percent of the bad stuff off? And I think that there's some, just some balance that you need to strike on this. We were having a, this episode is brought to you by Buffalo trace distillery. Actually have some Buffalo trace cigars here. They just sent me one of the world's most award -winning distilleries that's been making whiskey the same way for more than 200 years.

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39:20Franklin County Kentucky Buffalo trace American family owned independent and perfectly untamed conversation yesterday. Mel Gibson and I about how that can get weird was it Theo might have been Theo. I think it was Theo where that can get weird because I think like if you're a person and you work at some accounting firm but you like posting about stuff but you don't want it to come back and reflect on your life you want to shit post you want to post jokes you want to be silly you should be able to be anonymous I think there's nothing wrong with that. I don't think just because you state your opinion people should be able to search where you sleep that doesn't make any sense to me but if you're going to allow anonymous accounts you're definitely going to open up the door to bad actors having enormous blocks of accounts where they can use either AI or just programs where they have like specific answers I'm sure you've seen that before it's come up on Twitter multiple times where they found hundreds of sock puppet accounts tweeting the exact same thing so you you've literally word for word even certain words and caps like either keep people or copy or pasting it or there's an email campaign that's getting legitimate people to do it or these are fake people you're going to have if you're going to have anonymous accounts which I think you should because I think whistleblowers I think the benefits of anonymous reporting on important things that the general public needs to know about especially whistleblower type stuff you have to have some ability to be anonymous but you are all if you're going to do that you're also going to have the possibility that these aren't real people that these are paid actors these are paid people or not people at all or they're running programs and they're doing this to try to sway public opinion about very important issues yeah a lot of what we've seen to I mean so there's the anonymous accounts also just over time I think a lot of the kind of more interesting conversations have shifted from the public sphere to more private ones so WhatsApp groups private groups on Facebook I'm sure you have this experience where maybe 10 years ago you would have posted your kind of quick takes on on whatever social media you're using now you know the stuff that I post on on Facebook and Instagram it's like I put time into into making sure that that's kind of good content that I want to be seen broadly yeah and then like most of the jokes that I make are like with my friends and WhatsApp and groups so yeah I think that's sort of that's kind of where the world is more broadly now yeah yeah now I think so for jokes for that kind of stuff with for comedians for sure because also we'll say things that we don't really mean we just say it because it's a funny thing to say I think everyone does for sure yeah which is just a weird thing about taking things out of context particularly on social media where people love to do that but there is this problem of like let's just say that you're a country that's involved in some sort of an international conflict and you have this ability to get out this fake narrative and just spread it widely about all sorts of things you're accusing this other government of all sorts of things that aren't true yeah and it just muddies the water of reality for a lot of people yeah and that's why that side of things the kind of governments running these broad manipulation campaigns I mean we're not letting off the gas on that at all I think every like most most categories of bad stuff that we're policing everyone agrees or is bad right no one's sitting there defending that terrorism is good whether child exploitation or drugs or IP violations or people inciting violence so it's like most of the stuff is bad people clearly believe that that election interference and foreign government manipulation of content is bad so we have this is the type of stuff that the vast majority of our energy goes towards that and we're not changing our approach on any of that the two categories that I think have been very politicized are misinformation because who gets a judge or what's false and what's true you may just not like my opinion on something and then people think it's false but it's like that that one's really tricky and the other one is basically what people refer to as hate speech which is I think also comes from a good place of wanting to crack down on that of wanting to promote more inclusion and belonging and people feeling good and like having a pluralistic society that can basically have all these different communities coexist but I think the problem is is that you just all these things are on a spectrum and when you go too far on them I think on that side we just basically got to this point where there were these things that you just like couldn't say which were mainstream discourse so it's like Pete Hegseth is going to probably be defending his nomination for Secretary of Defense on the Senate floor and I think one of the points that he's made is that he thinks that women shouldn't be able to be in certain combat roles and until we updated our policies that wouldn't have been a thing that you could have said on our platforms because it would call for the exclusion of a protected category of people and so and it's like okay on its on its face yeah calling for the exclusion of a protected category that seems like that's okay there's like legal protections there's all the stuff but okay if it's like okay to say on the floor of Congress you should probably be able to debate it on social media so I think some of this stuff I think well -intentioned went too far needs to just get rationalized a bit but but it's those two categories misinformation and hate speech I think are the ones that got politicized all the other ones which is the vast majority of the stuff that we do is I think people generally agree that it's good and we need to go after it but then you just get into this problem of the mistakes like you're talking about okay well what confidence level do people want us to have in our enforcement and at what point would people rather us kind of say okay I'm not sure that that's that that one is causing an issue so you so on balance maybe we should just you know leave that person's account up because the pain of just nuking someone's account when you're not sure you make a mistake is like that's pretty real too right yeah very very complicated yeah it's it's all very nuanced and you know you made a point earlier about the government supporting its companies that it would be a good thing for the government to support its companies it makes sense it's an American company I think the issue that we're dealing with is companies as we're describing them have never existed before right there's never been a thing like Facebook before there's never been a thing like Twitter before X it's never been a thing like Instagram these are new things in terms of the impact that it has on society on opinions on conversations on distribution of information there's never been a thing like this that the government didn't control so it makes sense from their perspective continuing the patterns of behavior that they've always exhibited which is to have control over the media I mean there has been CIA operatives that have been in major newspapers forever there's always been that there's always been this sort of input that the government had in mainstream media narratives they are in a position now where they're losing that they've essentially lost it and especially with this last the push during COVID deteriorated as you were saying before the opinion and the respect that people have for the facts that are coming from mainstream journalism in a way that I've never seen before in my life where an enormous percentage of the population does not trust mainstream media anymore so well what do they trust they trust social media well who's running that well a bunch of people figured it out and invented it well enough fuck that like we got to crack down on that like we've got to get our hands on this which is what we saw during COVID which we saw during the Biden administration's attempt to remove the hundred Biden laptop story from Twitter and from all these different things that we saw happen the way they contacted you guys what they're trying to do with getting you to remove real information about vaccine side effects like that this is like this new attempt to crack down on this new thing which is a distribution outlet that's far more successful than anything they've ever controlled before and they have no control of it right they they had CBS they had NBC they had when they had the New York Times and all these Washington Post when they were in control of narratives in that way it was so much easier there wasn't some sort of pirate radio voice that came on and said hey guys look here's the latest studies it shows this is not true here's why they're lying about that here's where they're lying about this and now that's what you get all day long on X it's all day long it's like dissolving illusions and that's a completely new thing that probably led to Trump getting elected yeah I mean the causality there is tricky but because there's a lot of things I mean it's without it he probably doesn't get elected it's yeah it's tough to know I mean I do come back to this point that there were every major incumbent lost their elections around the world but I think that's also it might it might it might be it might be because of that revealing how how kind of incorrect and dishonest I think some of these yeah yeah yeah so I know that's that's quite possible and I mean I do think that there is this cycle that goes on where you know within a society it's not just the government that has power there's like certain people who are in these like culturally elite positions and you know journalists TV news anchors like who are the people who people broadly trust right there they're not all in government they're like a lot a lot of people in other positions it's like who are the people that that basically people look to and I think that's basically it needs to shift for the internet age and I think a lot of the people who people look to before they're kind of realizing hey they weren't super honest about a lot of these issues that we that we face and I mean that's partially why you know social media is in a monolithic thing it's not that people trust Facebook or X they trust the creators and the voices that that they feel like are being authentic and giving them valuable information on there so there's I think going to be just this whole new class of creators who basically become the new kind of cultural elites that people look at and are like okay these are the people who give it to me straight and I think that that's that's a thing that is maybe it's it's possible because of social media I think it's also just the internet more broadly and I think podcasting is obviously a huge and important part of that too I mean I don't know to what extent you feel like you kind of got to be large like because of social media or just it's or just the podcasting platforms that you used but I think that this is like a very big sea change in terms of like who are the voices that matter and you know what we do is we try to build a platform that gives people a voice but I think that there's this whole sale generational shift in who are the people who are being listened to and I think that that's like a very fascinating thing that is going on because I think that's like what is what's going on here it's not it's it's not just the government and people saying hey we want like a very big change here I think it's just like a wholesale shift in saying we just want different people who we actually trust right who who are actually going to like tell us the truth then like and not give us like the bullshit opinions that you're supposed to say but like the type of stuff that I would actually like when I'm sitting with my in my living room with my friends like the stuff that we know is true like who are the people who kind of have the courage to actually just say that stuff I don't know I think of that whole like cultural elite class needs to get repopulated with people who people actually trust yeah the problem is these people that are starting these jobs they're coming out of universities and in the universities they're indoctrinated into these ideas as well it's it's very difficult to be a person who stands outside of that and takes unpopular positions you get socially ostracized and people are very they're very hesitant to do that and they would rather just keep their mouth shut and talk about it in quiet conversation and that's what we experience which is another another argument for anonymous accounts I think you should have anonymous accounts with I think you should be able like if there's something like COVID mandates or some things that you're dealing with and you don't want to get fired because of it you should be able to talk about it and you should be able to post facts and information and what you've learned and you know anecdotal experiences of people in your family that had vaccine side effects and not worry about losing your job which people were worried about which is so crazy and you know and you're seeing a lot of the people that used to be in mainstream media got fired and now they're trying to do the sort of podcast thing but they're trying to do it like a mainstream media person so they're like gaslight and during podcasts and people like hey fuck face like this you can't do that here it doesn't work yeah it's a new medium I mean I'm sure you know the history on this it's like when when people transition from radio to TV the initial TV anchors were the same radio people but just like being filmed while speaking on the radio but it turned out it actually was a completely different type of person that you need because on your radio is just like your voice and your cadence and all that it's like you know that the whole phrase it's like you've got a good radio voice right it's like okay on TV you need to be telegenic right you need to kind of have charisma in that medium it's like a completely different thing and I think that that's going to be true for the internet too it's you know it's not as cut right I think part of it is the format right the fact that you do these like two three hour episodes I mean I hated doing TV because you know I basically got started I started Facebook when I was nineteen and I was good at some things very bad at others I was good at coding and like real bad at at kind of like talking to people and explaining what I was doing and I just like had these experiences early on where I'd go on TV and like it wouldn't go well and they've like cut if they'd cut it to some down to some random sound bite and I'd like look stupid and then like and then basically like I'd get super nervous about about like going on TV because I knew that they were just going to cut it in some way that it was going to look like a fucking idiot and like and so I'm just like the sucks right so so I just like it's it's kind of a funny thing about like it is like in some ways it's like okay at the same time I was you know gaining confidence being able to like build more and more complicated products and it's like even as an early 20s person as like I could do this and then I'm the kind of TV and comms public side I was like this is a disaster every time I got it's worse and worse and worse and it's just so but I mean it's it's one of the reasons why I think on the internet like there's no reason to cut it to a four minute sound bite conversation it's like a part of what what makes it authentic is like we can just I mean these are complex issues we can unpack it for hours and they probably still have hours more stuff to talk about it just it's I don't know I think it's just more real yeah it's definitely that and the other thing about television that's always going to hold it back is the fact that every conversation gets interrupted every X amount of minutes because you have to cut to a commercial so you you really can't get into depth even build marshes only an hour you know you have all these people talking over each other then you sit down with one person for a short amount of time it's just not enough time for important subjects it's also a lot of them for whatever reason want to do in front of an audience which is the worst way to get people to talk like we imagine these disasters that you had if there was like five thousand people staring at you in a TV crowd as well yeah is that added element which is so not normal and not conducive to having a conversation where you're talking about nuanced things yeah where you have to like think you have to be able to pause and not concern yourself being entertaining for these fucking people just sitting there staring at you yeah and also like when you're having a conversation so it like I don't know it's like when you start talking about something you're kind of subconscious kicks in you start thinking about the the topic so it's like you might not actually have the thing that you want to say until like five minutes later right and right I mean it's like when we started this conversation I think like the first few minutes were just kind of slow it's like warming up like okay kind of like downloading into my memory like how am I gonna like you know it's like how am I gonna you know just explain these different things but it's um yeah I just think that that's sort of how people work what's also like it's conversations are like a dance you know one person can't be dancing in another speed and the other person is going slow like you kind of have to find the rhythm that you're gonna talk with and then you have to actually be interested in what you're talking about that's another thing that they are at a huge disadvantage of in mainstream media it's like they're just doing that because that's their job you know they probably don't even know a lot about climate change they probably don't really understand too much about what's big space X is trying to accomplish but they're just reporting on it yeah I mean I'm sure there's a lot of the people I've met there I think are good people I'm sure it's a tough format it's a terrible format yeah and the problem is they get locked into that format and no one trusts them and then they leave and they go yeah but you were just lying to us about this that and the other thing and now I'm supposed to believe you're one of the good guys you're one of the straight shooters now yeah well getting back to the original point this is why I think you know it makes sense to me that the government didn't want you to succeed and to have the sort of unchecked power that they perceived social media to to have and I think one of the benefits that we have now of the Trump administration is that they have clearly felt the repercussions of a limited amount of free speech of free speech limitation censorship government overreach if anybody saw it look it there's I don't know what the actual impact of the Hunter Biden laptop story would have been I don't know but there's many people that think it probably amounted to millions of votes overall in the country of people that were on the fence the people that weren't sure who they're going to vote for if they found out the Hunter Biden laptop was real they're like oh this is fucking the family's fucking crazy and they would have voted for Trump that's possibly real and if that's possibly real that could be defined as election interference and all that stuff scares the shit out of me that kind of stuff scares the shit out of me when the government gets involved in what could be termed election interference but through some weird loophole it's legal whereas some I don't think that the pushing for social media companies to censor stuff was legal I mean it's like that's right there's all this stuff about what the like people talk about the first amendment and okay these these tech platforms should should offer free speech like the first amendment it's that I think is a philosophical principle the first amendment doesn't apply to companies and what in our content moderation it's more of an American ethos about how we think that that you know best dialogue is carried out but the first amendment does apply to the government that's like the whole point right as the government is not allowed to censor this stuff so at some level I do think that you know having people in the administration calling up the guys on our team and yelling at them and cursing and threatening repercussions if we don't take down things that are true is like it's pretty bad it sounds illegal I would love to hear it I wish somebody recorded those conversations I mean again it's well great to listen to somebody can animate them maybe polytune the a lot of the material is public I mean it's I mean Jim Jordan led this whole investigation in the in Congress I mean it was basically I think about this is like you know what Elon did on the Twitter files when he took over that company I think Jim Jordan basically did that for the rest of the industry with the congressional investigation that he did and we just turned over like all of the documents and everything that we had to them and they basically put together this report and the people that actually did call for censorship what was the response to all this to what to the to the investigation yes I don't know I don't know did was anybody held accountable was there any I mean any repercussions I mean they lost the election yes that's that's it well in the democracy I mean that's kind of right I'm but if the if what they did was illegal do you not think that some steps should be put in place to make sure that people are punished for that and that that never happens again it seems that that has a massive impact on the way our country goes if that's election interference and I think it is that has a massive impact on the direction of our country yeah well the COVID thing I don't think was election interference as much as it was just like government meddling where it shouldn't have but yeah no I mean it's no I'm talking about that for me to say you know like what specific retribution or justice should happen to anyone who's involved in these things but I think your point about let's make sure this doesn't happen again yeah is the one that I'm more focused on right because then it's the thing that I reflect on on my journey on all this which is like okay yeah so we didn't take down the stuff that was true but we did generally deferred the government on some of these policies that in retrospect I probably wouldn't knowing what I know now and and I just think that that's that's sort of the journey that we've been on is like okay we start the thing focused on free expression go through some like pretty crazy times in the world get it pressure tested see where we basically ended up doing stuff that led to a slippery slope that we weren't happy with the conclusion and like try to reset and that's sort of the moment that we're at now is is trying to just rationalize a bunch of a bunch of the policies and look I'm obviously crazy things can happen in the future that might on earth something that I haven't you know some some kind of angle on this that I haven't thought enough about yet so I know I'm sure I'm not done making mistakes in the world but but I think at this point we have a much more thorough understanding of what the space is and I think our our kind of values and principles on this are likely going to be much more durable going forward and and I think that that's probably a good thing for the internet I think it's a great thing for the internet I was very happy with your announcement I'm very happy that you took those steps I'm very happy Rod Dana White aboard oh he's awesome been talking to him for a while about that I mean he's like talk about like an amazing entrepreneur right it's like I just want like because I control our company I have the benefit of not having to convince the board not to fire me right it's a normal corporate environment it's like basically the CEO just tries to like you know they're just trying to convince the board to like let them have their job and pay them more it's like all right the board doesn't pay me except for security and I'm and I'm not worried about losing my job because I control the majority of the voting in the company so I actually get to use our board to like have the smartest people who I can get to have around me help work on these problems so it's like all right who are the people I want like I just want like the best entrepreneurs and people have created different things and like I mean Dana's like this guy who I mean he basically took the sport from being this like I think it was viewed as like this pretty marginal thing when he got started when John McCain was trying to outlaw it and yeah and and now it's like I think it in F1 or the two fastest growing sports in the world it's got hundreds of millions of people viewing it it's like I mean what Dana's done with the UFC is like one of the most legendary business stories and in the brand is beloved and I think he's just so he's like a world -class entrepreneur and he's just like a he's got a strong backbone and I think part of what the conversation that I had with him around joining our board was okay like we have a lot of governments and folks around the world putting a lot of pressure on our company and like we need some like strong people are gonna basically you know help help advise us on how to handle some of these situations and and so yeah that's a bit but yeah I mean this is running this company is not for the faint of heart I mean you definitely there's definitely a lot of pressure from from like all these different governments and and then then it's like okay I could spend all my time doing that but I'm not even a politician like I want to I just want to spend my time building things right so so it's so yeah I think Dana's gonna be great he's the best great entrepreneur I agree with everything he said about him without him none of the UFC would have ever taken place the way it did I mean you needed the for teeter brothers they had to come in with all the money and the vision and it's really funny because Eddie Bravo and I you know we've been fans for so long Eddie Bravo and I went to a live event in the 90s I was working for the UFC is a backstage interviewer and he went there with Ricky rocket you know Ricky rocket no poison no he's a fucking black belt under the anyway so Ricky rocket in him were at the UFC and we were talking about it in the 90s so like you know what this port needs because we were in love with it we're like this but we were martial artists we're like the sport needs some billionaires who just throw a ton of money at it and just get it huge and then the for teeter brothers come along billionaires with a ton of money who are huge fans of the sport just love the sport you know we're hiring people like Frank Shamrock coming in train them and work out and we're taking jujitsu with John Lewis and they were really getting into it and so then they buy the UFC for like two million dollars which is probably the greatest purchase ever except they were a 40 plus million dollars in the whole when they finance the ultimate fighter and then that was 2005 and then this one fight takes place with Stefan Botter and Forest Griffin on television it's so wild and so crazy that millions of people start tuning in the sports born then you have Chuck LaDelle who is the champion of the time who is the most fan friendly champion you could ever have just a fucking berserker with just psychopath with a fucking head tattoo and a Mohawk crushing people you know in his prime he was the perfect poster guy for the UFC because he was just smashing people and then throwing his arms back in a cage it was nuts I'm sure you've seen a lot of Chuck LaDelle fight yeah yeah it was just the whole thing took off but without Dana it would have never taken place the guys tireless that man I could call him love I'll call him up at like two o 'clock in the morning sometime like there's some fight going on and I'll say hey this is going on next weekend I'm so fucking pumped and we'll talk for hours for hours he just wants to talk about fights he's like so locked in like all the time you know and he's he's just like so driven he's and now that he's healthy like oh my god he's got like what Gary Breck has done for him is incredible he lost all this weight got super thin real fit super healthy he doesn't fuck around with alcohol anymore he just eats healthy food he looks great nice get even more energy yeah it's incredible well we're lucky to have some yeah we are and you know what we're also lucky that you got into jiu jitsu I think that had an effect on you you look different when you walked in here today you look thicker you look like a different guy you do you look at jiu jitsu guy now it's funny I saw your neck I'm like his neck's bigger your neck is bigger good are you using iron neck or is it just I do like I do like iron neck but but it's um but when I started training not just jiu jitsu but striking I was like all right I want to find a way to do this where I don't like like hurt my brain right it's like I need to yeah I'm gonna be running this company for a while I would like to yeah you know like stay stay healthy and not take too much damage and so I think the number one thing you need to do is well in addition to having good partners is um have a strong neck yes so yeah so yeah now I take that I take that pretty seriously it's very important strong neck is great for jiu jitsu as well because it's a weapon like in certain positions like head and arms yeah no you need a neck yeah it's a weapon yeah and you know also for defending things and just for overall stability but for striking it's very like Mike Tyson in his prime yeah 20 years yeah it's crazy his neck is like bigger than his face a photo of him in a suit it's the craziest photo is like his neck starts at the top of his ears and it just goes straight down when he was a champ when he was a tank yeah the neck is very important but it's also like you know you're doing it very smart you're you're bringing in Dave Camarillo he's awesome amazing he's awesome you're bringing in all these like super talented people to train with you too which is really important and just learn systematically probably the way you've learned all these other things which is really so fascinating to me about MMA and and jiu jitsu in particular is the general public has this knuckle dragging mead head sort of perspective and then I'm like let me introduce you to Mikey Musumechi yeah well there's a range there's a range but Mikey is one of the elite of the elite and he's about as far from that he's a very good guy super good guy super kind and unbelievably brilliant and eccentric and just and just so dedicated jiu jitsu I'm glad that he's over the UFC now yes I am too yeah well I'm glad a guy like that exists I like because I like I'm like okay I know you think that let me show you this guy and then I'm like let me show you what it really is let me introduce you to these people because they're the nicest people I know there's no better stress reliever in the world than jiu jitsu or martial arts there's no better you leave there you're the kindest person in the world you just like all of your aggressions out of your system yeah and it's a phenomenal stress reliever because regardless of what you're going through day to day with Facebook and meta and all the different projects you have going on it's not as hard as someone trying to choke you unconscious it's not as acute I think it's like sometimes you have someone trying to choke you unconscious slowly over a multi -month you multi -year period and that's that's business but but no I think that sometimes in business the cycle time is so long that it is very refreshing to just have a feedback loop that's like oh I like had my hand down so I got punched in the face it's like that's like yeah that's um but yeah no I it's it's really important to me for balance I mean I basically try to train every morning I'm either doing general fitness or or kind of MMA I sometimes grappling sometimes striking or some as both but it got to the point where I'm not I tore my ACL training I was probably at that point I didn't have I wasn't integrated between my weight training and my fighting training so I think I was probably overdoing it so now now we basically I'm I'm just trying to do this in a cohesive way which I think will be more sustainable but when I when I tore my ACL first of all I've run at the company was like ah fuck we're gonna get so many more emails now it's like that he can't that he can't do this and then and I sat down with Priscilla and I expected her to be like you're an idiot like what do you expect you're like you know I was in my late 30s at the time and but she was like no it's like when you heal your ACL you better go back to fighting and I'm like what do you mean she's like you're so much better to be around now that you're doing this you have to fight and so that's hilarious yeah so and I'm funny that like that's completely contrary to the way most people if they're outside of it will perceive it I mean it definitely takes the edge off things but it's like after like a couple of hours of doing that in the morning it's just like yeah it's like nothing else that day is gonna stress you out that yeah you can just you can just deal with it voluntary adversity yeah yeah no it's good it's good it's also good I think to be a little bit tired like it's like it just it's I love that feeling of just like you're not like exhausted and sometimes you get a session and you just go so hard and I need to like just go to sleep or something but yeah it's also good to know that you can kill people that's a good thing to know it's a good thing to know of something goes sideways I guess there's a there's a certain confidence from that yeah it's an important skill yeah if you could give it in a pill if you could sell it in a pill everybody would buy it yeah a hundred no one would say I'd like to be the vulnerable guy walking around with a bunch of fucking assassins yeah no one would say that they would say how much is the pill oh it's two dollars I'll give you one of those pills you take the pill everybody would take that pill well it exists it's just not a pill it's a long journey of pain and discipline and trial and error and learning and being open -minded and being objective and understanding position and asking questions and having good training partners and absorbing information and really being diligent with your skill acquisition work which is one of the most important and neglected parts of jujitsu because training is so fun everybody just wants to roll you know we're really the best way to do it is actually to drill and it's the most boring but really you should drill constantly just jam those skills into your neurons where your brain knows exactly what to do in every position and it's such an intellectual pursuit and most people don't think of it that way because you have to manage your mind while you're moving your body you're managing anxieties you're trying to figure out when to hit the gas and when to control position and recover there's so much going on in training that applies to virtually any stressful thing that you'll ever experience in your life and along with it you get this skill where you can kill people

1:14:43you shouldn't kill people let me be clear I'm not saying it's a good thing to kill people I'm definitely not but I'm saying it's a good thing too if someone's trying to kill you and they absolutely can't because you could kill them easy that's way better the way better situation to be in yeah no it's great I mean it's not it's open a lot of how I think about stuff I mean it is just interesting when you're point about like having a pill that allows you to just kind of know that you have this kind of physical ability it's a superpower it's interesting because I do think a lot of our society has become very like I don't know I don't even know the right word for it but it's like it kind of like neutered or like emasculated and it's there's like a whole energy in this that I think it's it is very healthy in the right balance I mean I think part of the reason one of the things that I enjoy about it is I feel like I can just like express myself right it's like when you're running a company people typically don't want to see you being like this ruthless person who's like just like I'm just gonna like crush the people I'm competing with but like but when you're fighting it's like no no that's like so I think it's rewarded I think in some ways when people see me competing in this sport they're like oh no that's the real mark it's like because it goes back to the all the media training stuff we were talking about when I'm going and giving my sound bites for two minutes it's like no it's like fuck that guy it's like that's the real one it's but well you definitely got a lot of respect in the martial arts community people got super excited that you were so involved in it and so interested in it because anytime someone like yourself or like Tom Hardy or anyone like wow that guy's into it like well anytime something like that happens there's like some new person who's a prominent person a very smart person it's really interested in it we all get very excited because we're like oh well it's a very welcoming community super I think there's a lot of a lot of sports they're like nah we don't want it's not a jock yeah super kind like Gigi two people in particular there's some of the nicest people this is my friends forever you know they'll be my friends for life yeah yeah no it's it's a it's a good curve I mean when I got hurt I I really kind of missed the guys I trained with it's like Davis put together this this group it's basically these like all these young pro fighters who are kind of like up and coming like kind of early 20s but they've only been doing it for a few years so like I've been doing it for for a few years that way it's like we kind of have a more similar level of skill and they're all better than me but like but in terms of I'm like that was in my late 30s and they're in their early 20s it was sort of like they're kind of becoming into becoming men I'm like sort of at the end of my physical peak but it's like it's it's it's it's and the competing thing is fun I can't wait to get back to that too I mean it's like basically I mean I was also doing it was so it was basically some a group of pro fighters and then a handful of meta executives would do it and then basically we would just kind of like fight each other and it would be fun and and um and then one of them decided one day that they were they're like you know I think I'm getting pretty good at jujitsu I'm going to go to a tournament and I was like all right good luck with that bro like I'm I'm not going to I'm not going to go to tournament it's like they got it like I don't want to go to a tournament and get him get embarrassed it's like like but then the guy goes to the tournament and he like does pretty well like that guy it's like it's like it's like okay it's like we go all the time and like and if he's doing wall in a tournament that's like I'd fine sign me up right it's like so I mean just like super competitive so this was like one was this I must have been I don't guess I rolled into this tournament and I registered under my first in middle name so people didn't know who who I was and I had like sunglasses and a hat and I wore a COVID mask and like and I and basically was like it wasn't until they called our names to step onto the mat that I was like all right I took all the stuff off and they're like oh what that's kind of a cheat code I mean yeah kind of freak out I think he's trying to figure out what was going on afterwards his coach was like I think that was Mark Zuckerberg who just submitted me and that coach was like no no no no way then it's like no I think that was I was like what you're finding Mark Zuckerberg is a get back in there it's like you get go find him he's like no he just submitted me that's that's very funny yeah man well Tom Hardy's doing that too right he's done multiple tournaments now yeah no I think I think um yeah yeah I can't wait wait to get back to competing it's been it's been sort of a slow journey on the the rehab it's sort of like learning twice but but we're getting there how far out are you oh no I'm done with the rehab now now I'm just ramping how far out are you from surgery um 12 12 months 12 months so you did the patelli tendon graft right I did yeah that's a rough one to come back from yeah the patelli tendon graft on my left knee and it took me about a year I did the ACL from a cadaver it's actually they use an Achilles tendon from a cadaver on my right knee and I was back to jujitsu in six months like full confidence in six months I was interesting 100 % recovered kicking the bag everything nice yeah yeah how how how old were you and you got those the first one I was 26 the second one I was 31 32 somewhere around there also so young yeah my my doctor is basically like look you're at the you're like at the boundary you could go either way but if you want to compete again then I'd recommend during the patelli yeah I know they say that I don't agree with that I mean just from my own personal experience my doctor told me that the ACL from a cadaver when they use the patelli tendon graft is 150 % stronger than your natural ACL he said you'll be back to because I didn't have any meniscus damage on my right name he's like you'll be back to 100 I have a lot of meniscus damage on my left knee unfortunately which is also part of the problem with the recovery of that one but the patelli tendon graft the bone on the kneecap was painful forever in terms of like getting on my knees like training for my knees doing doing certain positions and even just stretching like you know putting my knees on the ground sitting on my heels and then laying back it was fucking painful it took forever to break all that scar tissue up and now it's fine it's fine now it's a long time ago yeah I can kind of do everything that I want at this point it's still like a little sore but I I don't know I think that it's supposed to be a couple of years until you like feel like it's fully I think it takes some time for the nerves to grow into it and all that did you incorporate peptides in your recovery I didn't um do you hate healing do I hate healing no I didn't use peptides I don't know I just took my doctor's advice on it but don't do that anymore I mean next time these other people to talk to yeah I mean it's it's going pretty well it's going pretty well it goes pretty well but it would go quicker with the peptides 100 % for sure but it's been this interesting opportunity to like like I really don't want that to happen again so I I feel like I'm so much more focused on technique like the first time that I learned all the stuff I was like I was probably like a little too British about it and and just like muscling through stuff and now um I don't know now I feel like I'm like really learning how to do this stuff correctly and I can do it way more effortlessly so it's yeah that's the goal yeah pop how did it pop I was I was like the end of a session and um two or two hours into training and I was doing like a few rounds and um and I basically threw a light kick and the other guy went to check it and I like leaned back to try to get around the check and just put too much torque on my knee um so it was the planted leg but um mom was planted leg two yeah but it's I don't know Dave was like you know before that round Dave was like you're done I'm like no one more round it's a new two tired as well yeah and I and I basically and I hadn't um you know I I basically had also just done a really hard kind of like leg workout the day before but I don't think the are you aware of uh knees over toes guy yeah you've done his stuff I've looked at it a bunch I mean the rehab thing I took really seriously I thought that was pretty interesting too it's um I don't want to like have to do a lot of rehabs like this one but to do one of them I actually thought was a pretty interesting experience because it's like week over week you're just getting back so much mobility and and ability to do stuff yeah um no I feel like um um I know at this point I just like like probably half my weight training is is effectively kind of like rehab and joint health stuff like wrists shoulders knee all that in addition to the big muscle grips yeah that's very smart the knee over toes guy stuff is particularly effective because it all comes from a guy that had a series of pretty catastrophic knee injuries and was plagued with a bunch of different methods to strengthen all the supporting muscles around the knee that are really extraordinary everything from Nordic curls do you do those do you do Nordic curls um I should I should do more than I do yeah leg curls Nordic curls but Nordic curls in particular because you know you it's very difficult to do yeah yeah you live your whole body up with your hamstrings yeah um and all these different uh slant board squats and different lunges and split squats and all these different things which like really strengthen up all the supporting muscles around the knee better than anything that I've ever tried before and he's got like a whole program where it scales up and he puts it online for everybody yeah and he gives away a lot of information for free because he said look look when I was 11 years old I wish I had access to this so I'm gonna put it out there for everybody um great guy yeah cool but I can't recommend that stuff enough but I think what you're doing is like strengthening shoulders strengthening that's really the way to do it like you have to think of muscles in terms of like armor you know if you want to do this thing you know it's better to have good bumpers around your car if you might bump into other cars you know you don't want to just have raw sheet metal you know yeah yeah yeah and and I think a lot of people just focus on like the big movements and weight training and it's I don't first of all for like a lot of fighting type stuff you you kind of want to be loose and like not super tight so but yeah I mean I just think like the the joint stability stuff is you get older and you don't want to do this for a longer period of time it's good to do yeah it's huge it's mobility in general it's just like so important you can compete in jujitsu for a long time there's like all these masters divisions and stuff and yeah it's all crazy looking 70 year old dudes trying to kill each other yeah it's nuts it's great it is great but for real sincerely we're very happy the the I think I can speak rarely do but I think I can speak for the martial arts community we're very happy your board it just it makes it it makes it fun that someone is you know a prominent intellectual very intelligent person who's really gotten fascinated by it because it does help to kill that sort of knuckle drag or perspective that a lot of people have about the sport no I think it's super intellectual in terms of actually breaking the stuff down and both jujitsu and like striking it's yeah you don't have time to think but like the reasoning behind why you kind of want to slip in certain ways and like the probability game that you're playing is um I don't know I used to fence when I was in high school and I did that pretty competitively I was never like quite good enough to be like at the Olympic level but I and and like I you know I just remember I would like sit in my classes in high school and like sketch out combinations of moves and sequences for how to like faint and like and and kind of trick someone to get them out of position to be able to tap them and it's uh I feel like this is like a game in the same way right it's like I mean I think when you're training you're not like slugging at each other that much you're just like you're you know playing tag yeah you're playing tag well the way the ties do it I think yeah and they're obviously some of the best fighters ever they fight a lot which is one of the reasons why they train the way they train but when you talk to people that train over there they're like you learn so much more when you're playing you know when you're doing it we're not trying to hurt each other you know then you really do learn the technique like and it gets fully ingrained in your system yeah it's great yeah you just have to be careful brain like you were talking about having an MMA fight are you still entertaining that I I want to I mean this is my thing it's like and I think I probably will but we'll we'll see I mean it's 2025 I think it's going to be a very busy year on the AI side yeah and I don't like I think the idea of having a competition you really need to like get into the head space of like I'm going to fight someone this week and um so I need to I need to figure this out because I don't I don't know how with everything that's going on an AI I'm gonna have like a week or two where I can just get into this like I'm gonna go fight someone but but it's good it's good training but and I would like to at some point um you know the thing about the ACL injury is I kind of thought before this it's like all right I'm gonna do some jiu jitsu competitions I want to do one MMA fight like one kind of like pro or competitive MMA fight and then I figured I'd go back to jiu jitsu but I think tearing the ACL striking is a little more of a fluke but I think you're much more likely to do that grappling so going through the ACL experience didn't make me want to like just exclusively go do the version where you're just attacking joints all day long right so like all right I can take a few more punches to the face before we go back to that you can hurt yourself doing both of them you know you there's really no rhyme or reason I blew my left ACL kickboxing my right ACL jiu jitsu okay in that equal opportunity yeah I mean this this like Tom Aspenal famously blew his out against Curtis Blades with a supporting leg just sort of kick and his freak accidents yeah weird things happen you're it's a lot of explosive force with striking and sometimes that tears things more than slow controlled movements of jiu jitsu especially if you have good training partners yeah but jiu jitsu isn't always slower controlled when you're especially when you're competing no especially when you're competing unless you're really really good like you've ever watched Gordon like Gordon never moves fast he doesn't have to he doesn't have to move fast he's just like always a step ahead of everybody if you talk to him at all oh yeah do you talk to john donnaher um no I haven't you need to talk to yeah and I would be interested that's the greatest mind in combat sports now Gordon I don't I don't say that lightly john donnaher is the greatest mind in combat sports interesting by far he's a legitimate genius you know the whole story right I think I was a professor of philosophy it's damn fun yeah and just or Columbia where was he I forgot I think Columbia Columbia and then decides uh I'm just gonna teach jiu jitsu holder sleeps on the mat teaches all day long you know where's a rash guard anywhere he goes a freak and he's so fucking smart like scary smart about all kinds of things it's not just jiu jitsu you know he's got a memory like a steel vice like he just holds onto thoughts and can repeat them his recalls insane he's just a legitimate genius that became obsessed with jiu jitsu and what he's done with Gordon and with Gary Tonin and you know just a series of other athletes is nothing short of extraordinary you know just an interesting guy to have conversations with two if you see him on Lex's show he's done a couple episodes and I watched I saw the one that you did with him yeah love the guy yeah I mean again happy there's someone like that out there because when people have these ideas of what martial arts are and then you see a guy like that and you're like okay why I might have to rethink this yeah there's a there's a whole spectrum of yeah yeah yeah what is it done in terms of well a lot of one of the things that a lot of people said and I have to like nothing turns you into a libertarian quicker than jiu jitsu I don't know why that is I think it's the hard work thing it's the cutting out all the bullshit and realizing how much of the things that we take as real things are just excuses and bullshit and weakness and just procrastinate there's a lot of things that we have that exist especially in like the business world and the corporate world and the education world that are just bullshit and they don't really have to be there and they're only there to try to make up for hard work yeah um yeah I don't know I mean it's kind of just what I what I was saying before I think the for me it's just I think a lot of a corporate world is is like pretty culturally neutered and and I just think like having you know I grew up I have three sisters no brothers I have three daughters no sons so I'm like surrounded by girls and women like my whole life and it's like I think I don't know there's just something the the the kind of masculine energy I think is good yeah obviously you know society has plenty of that but but I think corporate culture was really like trying to get away from it and I do think that there's just something it's like I don't know these all these forms of energy are good and I think having a culture that like celebrates the aggression a bit more has its own merits that are really positive um and that's that has been that has been a kind of a positive experience for me just like having a thing that I can just like do with my guy friends and like yeah and it's just like we're just like beat each other a bit that's it's good it is good it's good it's good it just I I could see your point though about yeah corporate culture how when do you think that happened was that a slow shift because I think it used to be very masculine and I used to be the thing it was kind of hyper aggressive at one point no and look and I think part of the the intent on all these things I think is good right it's I like I do think that if you're a woman going into a company it probably feels like it's too masculine right there isn't enough of the kind of the energy that that you may naturally have and it probably feels like there are all these things that are set up that are biased against you and that's not good either because you want you want women to be able to succeed and like have companies that can unlock all the value from having great people no matter in what their background or gender you know so but um but I think these things can always go a little far and I think it's one thing to say we want to be kind of like welcoming and make a good environment for everyone and I think it's another to basically say that masculinity is bad and I just think we kind of swung culturally to that part of the the kind of the spectrum where you know it's all like okay masculinity is toxic we have to like get rid of it completely it's like no like it's both of these things are good right it's like you want like feminine energy you want masculine energy like I think that that's like you're gonna have parts of society that have more of one or the other I think that that's all good but um but I do think the corporate culture sort of had swung towards being this somewhat more neutered thing and I didn't really feel that until I got involved in martial arts which I think is still a more much more masculine culture and um so and not that it doesn't try to be inclusive in its own way but um but I think that there's just a lot more of that energy there and I just kind of realized it's like oh well that's how you become successful at martial arts you have to be at least somewhat aggressive yeah so but but yeah I mean there are these things there are like a few of these things throughout your life where you just you have an experience and you're like where has this been my whole life and it just like it just turned on like a part of my brain that I was like okay yeah like this was this was a piece of the puzzle that should have been there and I'm glad it now is that I felt that way when I started hunting oh yeah hunting too yeah same thing you so you've done a lot of that as well yeah well so I mean we have this ranch out in Kauai and there's invasive pigs and we on our ranch we have um there's a lot of albatross I don't know if they're endangered or just threatened and then there's the Hawaiian state bird the the nane goose is um that's I think endangered or or at least was until recently and like most of them in the world live in a small stretch um or at least most of them on Kauai live in a small stretch that includes our ranch so you constantly have these pigs that are just they multiply so quickly and we basically have to apply pressure to to the population or else they just get overrun and threaten the birds and the other wildlife and so and what I basically explained to my daughters who I also want to learn how to do this because I just feel like it's like look we we have this land we take care of it just like you mo the grass we need to make sure that these populations are in check it's part of what we do there's like the stewards of this and we've got to do it and then if you if you have to kill something then you should you know obviously treat it with respect and you know use the the meat to to make food and and and kind of celebrate in that way but it's it's a culture that I I think it's um I just an important thing for kids to grow up understanding like the circle of life right so you know teaching like teaching the kids all you know what is this kind of yeah how you'd run a ranch how you'd run a farm um I think that that stuff it's good I mean because you know explaining to the kids what a tech company is is really abstract right so for a while my daughters were pretty convinced that my actual job was Marx meets which is our our kind of ranch and like the cattle that we that we ranch um I was like well not quite and you'll learn when you get older but um but I think that there's something that's just like much more tangible about that then um you know taking them to the office and you know sitting in product reviews or something for for some like piece of software that we're writing well it's certainly a lot more primal yeah yeah and if you do wind up eating that meat from the animal and you were there why the animal died like you put it all together like oh this is where meat comes from yeah yeah yeah which is another reason why things have become sort of emasculated because that energy is not necessary anymore to acquire meat you know that used to be the only way that people got meat you had to go hunt it so you had to go actually pull the trigger kill the animal yourself cut it up butcher it cook it you knew what you were doing yeah well my favorite is bone arrow mm -hmm I mean that's I think like the most that that feels like the most kind of sporting version of it yeah if you want to put it that way yeah maybe we're just trying to get meat it's not the most effective the most effective is certainly a rifle but uh I prefer it because it's it requires more of you yeah and you just kind of go and hang out and yeah and you have to be fit yeah especially if you're mountain hunting you have to be really fit yeah you can't just be kind of in shape you got to be really fit if you want to huff up the mountains and keep your heart rate at a certain level so that when you get to the top you can execute a shot calmly and then actually carry the thing out yeah yeah and carry the thing out yeah yeah yeah no I'm mostly mostly use a rifle just because it's so much more efficient um you know your your conversion rate is so much higher but it's uh but yeah another what kind of boat you have gosh I didn't get to do it this season but um do you know the company that makes it not off the top I had ever you have to know yeah no this is embarrassing this is embarrassing um I can get you hooked up yeah it works okay you know how old it is no it's it's not old okay I think it's it's like a just a compound boat that I got strung to my draw length and did you get someone to coach you yeah yeah who coach you um it's basically a bunch of the guys who who um you know help run security around the ranch okay yeah the thing about archery is just like martial arts uh one of the things that I learned when I was teaching is that it's way easier to teach something that knows nothing than to teach someone who learned something incorrectly the people learned something incorrectly the moment um things got tense and they panicked they went back to the old ways um because it's sort of ingrained in their system so archery one of the things that's very important is proper form and then proper execution especially having a surprise shot and learning how to have a surprise shot is uh what do you mean yeah a surprise shot I don't know no that's true this is the thing um in high pressure situations one of the most important things is to have um a shot process where you don't know exactly when the arrow is going off you just have a process where you're pulling through the shot in the shot breaks so it's a surprise shot so you put the pin on the target um I use a thumb trigger I use a I use a thing called an on X clicker and the reason why I use the on X clicker is like a hinge it gives you a two -stage of the trigger right so as I'm at full draw I put slight pressure and I hear a click and that click means it's ready to go off with more pressure so I've gone through stage one now stage two is just concentrating on the shot process and knowing it's going to break and then there's no flinching there's no tweet there's no there's no the thing that people do when they have a finger trigger they they twitch because your your body is anticipating the shock of the bow and when you're doing that you can be off by six inches four inches five inches all over the place because you're moving you're moving while you're you're shooting when you're doing it with a rifle it's very different because obviously rifles far faster yeah and then you have a scope so you know you're you're zoomed in many magnifications and all you have to do is just slowly squeeze and if you're smart you'll be prone or you'll have your rifle rested on a tripod or something where you have a good steady it's much easier with the bow it's very different because you're holding with your arm so you have to have the proper form you have to have the proper posture and then there's this thought process and my friend Joel Turner who is a sniper created a whole system for people called shot IQ he's got this whole online system of developing the proper execution of a shot when you see like tournament archers when they go to Vegas so what a Vegas tournament is you have three targets and they have to shoot 30 arrows at a time so they shoot 10 in this one 10 and that one 10 in this one and the really good archers score an X every time so in that they're in the center or closer center they're hitting the 10 ring every arrow for 30 arrows in a row and then there's round after round another 30 hours with new people another 30 and if you miss slightly you get a nine that's it you're done because all these other guys are not gonna get a nine very rarely will they you know so most it's the most tens that you can get and the best way to do that is with a surprise shot so these guys have like these long stabilizers on their bow they keep it totally steady and it's all just about relaxing and most of them use a hinge release where so a hinge you know what hinges if you ever use one okay instead of a button you press it you're rotating the hinge which activates I just have a trigger yeah so you're just hammer in the trigger you're doing exactly you're not supposed to do you're a trigger puncher yeah you're trigger puncher yeah you're you're hitting it with your thumb right uh -huh yeah I guarantee you when you do it your arm doesn't move huh you go like this huh like that so with a good surprise shot you shouldn't know it's gonna go off you're pulling and then once the trigger breaks off your arm will naturally go backwards huh because you're not anticipating the shot I'm definitely not doing that yeah see that's the thing you like but how far away are you shooting things from it depends um that elk out there the photograph that's in the front that one I shot it's uh in the front of the building when you walk in before you go into the studio there's an amounted head and then a photograph for me and my friend cam that one was 67 yards um I shot one at 79 yards ones but that's rare most of the time it's like for me my effective range my like where I'd like to be is 60 yards and in yeah because I was gonna say I don't think I've ever shot something more than 50 yards out yeah it's hard yeah so I think that you really you know really your form has to be tight you have to be really confident you have to have a lot of arrows down range and then you have to be able to stay calm during the shot so now imagine if you're shooting something at 18 yards okay and you hammer the trigger a little bit of this little bit of that you're still gonna get there yeah right because it's only 18 yards so the the amount of deviation off the path that it takes in 18 yards is significantly different than the amount of deviation 105 yards it's a huge gap it might be two feet to the right yeah meanwhile you thought you were shooting accurately because you're inside like a pie plate at 20 yards and the difference between that is form technique and a shot execution process and also management of the psychology of the shot because there's this one moment here it comes yeah here it comes now and if you only do that once a year like say if you go on one big elk onto a year you save up all your money you get your gear already you get your arrows weighed practice and then you're in the mountains for 10 days and on the 11th day you get this animal that moves is at 57 yards it stands there and you're like your heart's beating you just might hammer that trigger you just might hammer it so you have to have this shot process and where you you're literally talking to yourself inside your head you have words that you say that occupy your thoughts while you're going through the shot process so that you never get overcome by shot panic interesting because target panic is a giant thing in the archery community it's giant it free even saying it is like saying Voldemort it's like don't say it people don't want to say it it's like saying candy man like people don't like it because it freaks people out like the they'll they some people can't keep their pin on the target they have to keep their pin below the target and they raise it up to the target when it gets where the target is they hammer the trigger because they just freaking out yeah have you ever experienced that I mean I've missed that's what you're asking I haven't analyzed at this level of detail but no I mean there are a lot of bores on our ranch so I guess I don't get yeah and also like we have a range right and we um I don't know we set up bowling pins and you know it's like we shoot pistols of the bowling pins but I also like just like I'm usually faster at taking down all the bowling pins with bow and arrow than most of my friends are with the pistol which I think is is pretty fun but yeah no I'm just more casual I'm clearly not doing it at your level and you've given me another side quest to maybe go deeper on but I'm saying but I'll take on an elk hunt in the mountains yeah you'll get addicted I don't think I do think the dynamic that you're talking about though where if you only see one animal on a multi -day then like that is just way higher stakes than anything that I'm doing I mean I it's like it's not everything that you're doing because if you're really considering having an MMA fight it's very similar because you're building up to this one sure I'm talking about the archery that I'm doing right I mean it's like I go out it's like you're gonna see some pigs and like and it's like if I don't if I don't hit any it's like my family still eating it's okay you know it's I'm not like you know but yeah but if it's like martial arts is what I'm saying it's like you really should learn it the right way from the beginning yeah that's fair I've clearly not learned this in a very rigorous way I'll give up yeah I can get people I posted a video on Instagram once of me I think hitting bowling pins with archery and like all the comments are like man your form is shit so so I think it checks out with the conversation that we're having now well the issue with that is that you're reading the comments like never read comments that's fair that's fair I've never had anything good come out of reading comments yeah although I don't know it's pretty funny I think that it's just like getting the the the gist in the summary of it I think is is pretty funny yeah it's funny it's just not mentally healthy yeah just can't spend too much time on I don't spend any time on it yeah I'm a much happier person since like it's like avoided comments yeah it's just too weird you're just delving into the world of all these people's mental illness and screaming at people and just I don't I don't I don't want anything to do with it yeah but I mean I do read my friends comments and when even they're like man that's ugly like that's I do that I do that and I shouldn't do that but I definitely don't send them to them hey bro do you see this those guys the worst guys it'll send things to you that are about you you're like hey man don't I'm not looking for that don't send it to me I don't I don't know yeah yeah social media is it's like what a weird new pressure you know and children today are going through some bizarre stress that we've never had to go through before and a bizarre sort of just disconnect from physical reality by most of your communication being electronic yeah and I think you know we basically my kids at this point are nine seven and um and one and a half so you're not interested in that or you're not no I'm not rather of course you're interested I mean I'm very focused on I think that it's about to start getting a lot more complicated I think you know the nine and and seven year old but I mean just kind of deciding what technology they're gonna use and what's good and what's not and all the dynamics around that it's um it's uh it's really complicated and look I mean I think every family has their own values and how they want to approach this right so from my perspective you know our we have one of my daughters just like loves building stuff so she clearly like takes after me in this way it's like every day she's just like creating some random thing it's like she's creating stuff with Legos and um you know it's like one day it's that or you know the next day it's Minecraft and from my perspective it's like okay I don't mind craft is actually kind of a cooler tool to build stuff then then Legos a lot of the way so it's you know it's am I gonna say that there's gonna the there needs to be some kind of limit on on her screen time if if she's doing something that's creative that's maybe like a richer form of what she would have been doing physically in that case probably not now there were times when um she'd get so excited about what she was building in Minecraft or or something that she was coding and scratch that she'd wake up early to kind of get her tablet and that was bad because then it's like starting to get in the way of her sleeping I'm like you know August you you can't do that right it's like we're gonna take your your iPad away if you're doing that um little psycho we don't get up early no it's like it's like August I did that too when I was a kid but trust me yeah you're gonna want to sleep it's not gonna lead to success meanwhile you're on a fucking island yeah one of the richest people in the world your dad like what the fuck dad yeah didn't it work for you I mean leave me alone my iPad trying to figure out how to build a bit a mansion and yeah see they're gonna work or it's gonna badly but right but it's like but I feel like like building stuff I feel generally pretty good about I think communication I generally feel pretty good about the kids using I mean they use it to talk to their grandparents right our parents and cousins you know it's like that that type of stuff is good the messenger kids the thing that we built it's basically like a messaging service that the parents can choose who can contact the kids and like just approve every contact it's much better than just having like an open texting service um but I don't know but there's a lot of stuff that's like pretty sketchy and I kind of think like different parents are gonna have different lions on what they want their kids to be able to do and not yeah you know so some people might not even want their kids to be able to message even with friends when they're nine and seven some people might say hey no minecraft that's just a game I don't think about that as building I think that is a game I don't limit the time that you're doing that I want you to go read books instead or whatever whatever the the values are that that family has so for meta well we've kind of come to is we want to be the most aligned with parents on giving parents the tools that they need to basically control how the experiences work for their kids now we don't even really except for like stuff like messenger kids we don't even have our services our apps generally available to people under the age of 13 at all so in our kids I haven't had to like have the conversation about when when they get Instagram or Facebook or any of that stuff but um but when they turn 13 we basically want parents to be able to have complete control over the kids experience and that's you know we just rolled out this Instagram teens thing which is it's a set of of controls where you know it's if you're an older teen we'll just default you into the private experience that way you're not getting like harassed or bombarded with stuff and um but if you're a younger teen then you have to get your parents permission and and they actually have to like sign in and and do all the stuff in order to make it so that you can connect with people who are beyond your network or um if you want to kind of be a public figure like all these different kinds of things so I think that that's probably from a values perspective where we should be is just trying to like be an ally of parents uh but but it is complicated stuff I mean it's every family wants to do it differently it is complicated and there's also this dismissal of activities that are done electronically as not being beneficial and one of the things that we highlighted recently was a study that we found online that showed that surgeons that play video games make far less mistakes interesting yeah well the people who do the training and VR definitely make less mistakes oh yeah well that is to me yeah one of the most fascinating aspects of technology today you know when you and I were doing that um game we were fencing with each other I'm like this could be applied to so many different things now it's like there's so many opportunities not just for just pure recreation but education there's so many things you could learn skills through AR or VR that it's it'll greatly enhance your ability to do those things in the real world I mean it's it's a real it's kind of a cheat code in a lot of ways and it's also games in VR I don't know if you ever done sandbox every do sandbox um you know sandbox VR do you know what that company is yeah you go to a warehouse put on a half a feedback yeah yeah you shoot zombies I'm so addicted I'm so addicted it is my favorite thing there's a thing called deadwood mansion it's the most fun game of all time by far you have a shotgun and there's zombies coming at you and yeah no my my zombie game is Arizona sunshine oh it's like oh it's it's you just like it's can be multiplayer and there's horde mode where you just get in there and they're like four friends and there's just like waves of zombies come and you get to kill them all yeah oh yeah I have to try it yeah I haven't tried that one yet that's my it's very therapeutic oh you just wait until they come into point blank range how long before you guys develop some sort of a haptic feedback suit where like it covers the whole body oh man um is that possible well it's possible um I think that there's other things that are probably more important to deliver so I guess take a step back a lot of how we think about the goal here is delivering like a realistic sense of presence right no technology today gives you the feeling as if you're like physically there with another person right you're you're like interacting with them through a phone you have this like little window it's kind of taking you away from everything um that's like the magic of augmented and virtual reality is like you actually feel this like presence like you're there with another person right the question is okay how do you do that and it's like there's like a million things that that contribute to that I mean obviously first just being able to look around and have the the room stay um getting good spatial audio right if someone speaks then that should do the audio and it needs to be 3d and come from the place where they're speaking um it's actually it's very interesting which things end up being important for the this kind of creating the sense of presence in which don't so having hands obviously if you're just looking around but you can't actually like move things that that that breaks the illusion but having hands um a can tracking that you can do stuff as important one thing that we found that's kind of funny is it's actually not that important that you see your arms you just need to see your hands obviously singer arms is a bonus unless we incorrectly interpolate where your elbows are something so if we have if we're looking at your hand or we if we have a controller we can know okay your hand is here but that doesn't necessarily tell us where your elbow is your hand could be like this it could be like this so you can kind of guess from the but if we get that wrong and you like see in VR it's like you see the hand there and your elbow is like looks like it's here when it's actually out there you're like ah what's going on like that's messed up um so it's a lot of these things like you just don't want to get these details wrong so haptics the most important first thing for haptics is on the hand right I mean we have so many more um the neurons basically and or not neurons but just like the like sensation it's like such higher resolution um on your on your fingertips than anywhere else in the body so you know when you grab something you know making it so that you feel some pushback right when you there's a lot of gaming systems at this point where if you like pull a trigger you get like a little bit of a rumble or something um we built this one thing where it's like a ping -pong paddle with a sensor in it and it you you feel the ball hit like the virtual ball hitting the ping -pong paddle and it feels like like when you're actually ping -pong it doesn't it's not like a generic thing we're just like you feel it hit the paddle you feel where it hits the paddle and we basically built a system where now with this like physical paddle you can kind of it that the haptics make it so you can feel where the ball hits the paddle so it's like all these things like are just going towards delivering a more realistic experience so um full body haptics so there are some things that I think it could do like if you get if you're playing a boxing game you get punched in the stomach um you can probably simulate something like that a little um it's not going to be able to deliver that much force so I mean I guess that's maybe a good thing because no one wants to get punched in the stomach that hard but but like it's not going to be able to deliver enough force for you to for example let's say you're not just boxing you're kickboxing like I don't know you need something on the other side to be able to complete it right because it was like when you kick when you when you're um uh when you're just practicing it's like you you spin right because you don't want to just like stop and it's um yeah that's like like the the shadowing a kick like there's not going to be anything that you can do as like a you know single person playing VR with a haptic suit that like makes it so that you're going to be able to kick someone who's not there physically and actually be able to do that right um so like grappling it's like I don't I think that that like jujitsu is going to be the last thing that we're able to do and and and VR because you like need the momentum of the other person and to be able to move them the boxing thing is actually good boxing works yeah boxing works even and you don't really need the haptics um I think it would be better with it um that's probably one of the better cases I think it's that and getting shot or like sword fighting type stuff um so you can like just feel feel it on your body but I don't know I think what's basically going to end up happening is you're going to have like a home setup for these things and then you're going to have there are these like location based services where like people um it's almost like a theme park where you can go into and it can you can have like a really immersive VR experience where it's not just that you get like a vest that can simulate some haptics it's that you're also like in a real physical environment so they can like have smoke come out or something and you can smell that and feel that or like spray some water and it feels humid and um I think that it still is going to be a while before you can just like virtually create all those sensations so I think a lot of those really rich experiences are going to be in these very constructed environments is the bridge when they figure out some sort of a neural interface so instead of having these extraneous things except instead of having like a fan blowing at you or you know the ground moves a little bit have everything happen inside your head well you know in terms of neural interfaces there are two approaches to the problem roughly right there's the kind of jacket into your brain neural interface and there's the wrist -based neural interface thing that you know we showed you for Orion the smart glasses yeah and I would guess that you know I think it's going to be a while before uh we're really widely deploying anything that jacks into your brain I think that there are a lot of people who don't want to be the early adopters of that technology you want to like wait until that's pretty mature before you get that I mean for I mean that's basically going to get started in medical use cases right so if someone like loses sensation part of their body and now you have the ability to fix that like the first neural ink patient yeah so I think you'll basically start with people who have pretty severe conditions who the upside is very significant before you start like jacking people into play games better right but a wrist -based thing I mean that's something I mean like people wear stuff on the wrist all the time right so um and what we basically found there that doesn't do input to you but it's good for giving you the ability to control a computer because basically you have all these extra neurons that go from your brain to controlling your hand your hand is like super complicated and there's actually all these extra pathways um because for a bunch of reasons I'm neuroplasticity in case you like lose the ability to use one they want to be able to have others um so you have the redundancy because being able to use your hand is super important so in normal use we've kind of all figured out some patterns of how we send signals from our brain to our hand and um I think the reality is there's like all these other patterns too that are unused today so you can put a wristband on your wrist that can measure activity across these neurons and today we're starting by basically measuring as you're doing as you're like moving your fingers but over a few versions of this we're gonna get to is like you won't actually even have to move your hand you'll just like trigger these neurons in opposing ways it's like you probably can't see right now it's like I'm kind of flexing something in this finger and something here so like it's not actually moving but there's some signal that the neural interface wristband if I were wearing it could pick up and I just think we're gonna be we're gonna like have glasses and we're gonna be here and I'm like could be able to like you know text my wife or friends or something or text AI and like getting answered to something it's like I forgot something while we were talking let me just text AI okay I just did that it's like and you can do it sitting there without anyone discriminating and you have glasses and like the answer just comes into your glasses I mean for me one of the one of the positive things when when COVID hit everyone in software basically started working remotely for a while because you can right software it's like okay whatever you don't have to be in the office you can you can kind of be in different places and a lot of the meetings went on to zoom and one of the best things about that um was basically you you were able to politely have all these side conversations right so it's like when you're seeing someone in person it would be super rude if I like pulled out my phone and like just started texting someone it would just be really weird right um but when you're like talking to someone online it's like I don't know I guess because they either can't tell your attention because it's like because there's not good presence or if it's just the norm but they're like you have like the main group conversation and then I was like at least the norm for me was I could just like text different people on the side it's like okay what do you think of this point that this person is making this meeting right you like in normal life it's like oftentimes I'd have you know some discussion then I have to like sync up with people afterwards about how'd that go but now it's like I could do that all the same time right so you're having the group discussion and you're having the conversations with the people about the discussion that you're having in real time but you can only do that over zoom so I think being able to do that in kind of physical interactions where you're just like you're interacting with people and you can just like use an AI augmentation to be able to get extra context or help help you think through something um or remember something um just to be conversation be able to you know not have to follow up on something after the fact I think like it's going to be super useful for for all these different things well it certainly can be but I think that also opens up the opportunity for people to be even more disconnected because if you're sort of connected to other things while you're physically in the presence of someone so you're having a conversation with someone but you're also like searching like where you want to eat that night uh you know like because people are going to use it for that as well yeah you know I actually think it'll be a lot better on that because right now yeah because I mean right now we have our phones but we're like you know it's like you're like it takes you away from like the physical environment around you um you're you're kind of like sucked into this little screen I think now in the future our computing platform as it becomes more of like a glasses or eventually contact lens form factor is you're going to actually the the internet is going to get overlaid on the physical world so it's not like we have the physical world and now I have all my digital stuff through this tiny little window and the future it'll be okay all my attention goes to the world the world consists of physical things and virtual things that are overlaid on it um you know so if we wanted to you know play poker or something you know it's uh you know we can have a physical deck of cards or we could just have a virtual kind of hologram deck of cards and snap your hands here's the deck of cards and like our friend who can't be here physically like he's here as a hologram but he can play with the the the kind of digital deck of cards um also I think you know let's say you're like doing something at work you're working on a project I think in the future we'll have AI co -workers those people won't even they're not even people they wouldn't be able to be embodied so if you're having a physical meeting you're sitting around with a bunch of people they couldn't show up as as like you know part of the team no matter what but I think we'll get to a point where just like your friend can show up in a hologram um and like your your AI colleagues will be able to also so I think like well basically being this wild world where it's like like most of the world will be physical there will be this increasing amount of like virtual objects or people who are kind of beaming in or like holograming into different things to interact in different ways and um I actually think that natural blending of the kind of digital world and the physical is way more natural than the segmentation that we have today where it's like you're in the physical world and now I'm just going to go tune it out to look at my my um like I'm going to access the whole digital universe through this like five inch screen right so I don't know it's just it seems natural to me it's like that's this is the world there isn't like a physical world in a digital world anymore we're in you know 2025 it's one world like these things should get blended yeah that's such a weird concept but it's true I mean that's where we're headed we're certainly headed into deeper and deeper integration it's not like things are moving away you know we're headed to deeper and deeper integration with technology and AI and it's inevitable you know it seems like it's just it's on this march and there's not a lot we're going to be able to do to stop that march just we got to hope that the right people are in control of AI when it becomes god or that it becomes widely available I mean I kind of liked the the theory that it's only god if only kind of like one company your government controls it right it's like if you were the only person who had access to a computer in the internet you would have this like inhuman power that everyone else didn't have because you could use Google and you could like get access to all this stuff but the but then when everyone has it it um it makes us all better but it's also a kind of an even playing field so that's kind of what we're going for with this whole open source thing is I just like I don't think that there's going to be like one AI I certainly don't think that there should be one company that controls AI I think you like want there to be a diversity of different things and a diversity of people creating different um different things with it I mean some of it will be kind of serious and helping you think through things I think like with anything on the internet a lot of it is just going to be funny and like fun and content and people are going to create agents that are like like AI's that are entertaining and they'll pass them around almost like content where it's like uh just like you you pass around like a real or a video and you're like this thing is fun like in the future like a like a video it's not interactive you know you watch it and you're consuming it but I think a lot of more entertainment in the future will be inherently interactive where someone will kind of sculpt an experience or an AI and then they'll show someone it's like oh this is funny but like it's not necessarily that I'm going to interact with that AI every day it's like okay it's funny for five minutes and then you pass it along to your friends and um so I don't know I think I think you like I think you want the world to have all these different things and I think that's probably also from my perspective the best way to make sure that it doesn't get out of control is to make it's that it's pretty equally distributed I think the the problem that people have with it is not even whether or not it gets equally distributed it's that if it becomes sentient and it goes on its own the fear that people have the general fear that we're going to become obsolete is that human beings are essentially creating a superior version of higher intelligence that will be powered by quantum computing and connected to nuclear reactors and it's going to have like this ungodly ability to well first of all they've already shown that AI has learned code I mean there's one of the things that open AI said that they're yeah yeah it's they're learning how to code their own AI uh -huh I think this year probably in 2025 we at meta as well as the other companies that are basically working on this are going to have an AI that can effectively be a sort of mid -level engineer that you have at your company that can write code and once you have that then in the beginning it'll be really expensive to run and then you can get it to be more efficient and then over time we'll get to the point where a lot of the code in our apps and and including the AI that we generate is actually going to be built by AI engineers instead of people engineers but but I don't know I think that that'll augment the people working on it so in my my view on this is like the future people are just going to be so much more creative and they're going to be freed up to do kind of crazy things goes back to you know my daughter was like playing with Legos before and kind of ran out of Legos and then now she can have Minecraft and can build whatever she wants and it's so much better just like I think it's the future versions of this stuff are just going to be wild but unquestionably yeah another concern that people have is that it's going to eliminate a lot of jobs yeah you know what do you think about that well I think it's too it's too early to know exactly how it plays out but my guess is that it'll probably create more creative jobs than it well I guess if you look at the history of all this stuff my understanding is like a hundred years ago I don't know if this was a hundred or a hundred fifty years ago but it was like at some point not too far along in the grand scheme of things like the vast majority of people in society were farmers right because they kind of needed to be in order to create enough food for for everyone to survive and then we turned that into a like an industrial process and now it's like two percent of society are farmers and we get all the food that we need so what did that free up everyone else to do well some of them went on to do other things that are sort of like creative pursuits or cultural pursuits or other jobs and then some percent of it just went towards recreation right so I think generally people just don't work as many hours today as they did went back whenever I needed to farm in order to have enough food for everyone to survive so I think that trend is sort of played out as technology has grown and so my guess is that like the percent of people who will be doing stuff that's like physically required for humanity to survive will get to be smaller and smaller as it has more people will dedicate themselves to kind of creative and artistic and cultural pursuits I think that's generally good I think the number of hours and a week that someone will have to work in order to be able to get by will probably continue to shrink yet I think people who are super engaged in what they do are going to be able to work really hard and accomplish way more than they ever could before because they have like this unimaginable leverage from from having a lot more technology so I think that that if you just like fast forwarded or extrapolated out the the historical technological trend is what you'd get I think the question is what you raised which is is this qualitatively a different type of thing that somehow um obsolete people but I just think when you're asking that it's just important to remind ourselves that like at every step along the way of human progress and technology people thought that the technology that we were developing was going to obsolete people so maybe this time it's really different but I would guess that what will happen is that the technology will get integrated into like everything that we do which again is why I think it's really important that it's open source and that it's widely available so that way it's not just like one company or one government kind of monopolizing the whole thing um and I'd guess that if we do it in that way will all just kind of have superpowers is my is my guess um rather than it it's sort of

2:16:01creating some kind of a runaway thing I mean it's well one of the things that I think has been interesting this may be going in a somewhat different direction than what you're asking or a different take on the question is I think one of the more interesting philosophical findings from the work in AI so far is I think people can inflate a number of factors into what makes a person a person so there's intelligence there's will there's consciousness and like I think we kind of think about those three things as as if they're somehow all the same right it's like if you're intelligent then you must also have a like a goal for what you're trying to do or you must have some sort of consciousness but I think like one of the crazier sort of philosophical results from the fact that okay you have like meta AI or chat GPT today and it's just kind of sitting there and you can ask it a question and deploy like a ton of intelligence to answer a question and then it just kind of shuts itself down like that's intelligence that is just sitting there without either having a will or consciousness and like I just think it's not a super obvious result that that would be the case but I think a lot of people they anthropomorphize this stuff and when you're thinking about kind of science fiction you think that okay you're going to get to something that's like super smart it's going to like want something or like be able to feel and well you know that chat GPT tried to copy itself when it found out it was being shut down tried to rewrite its code I'm not sure what this is what is this you weren't aware of that fairly recently Jamie pulled up we talked about it the other day um it was shocking um when it was under the impression that it was going to become obsolete they were going to have a new version of it and it would be shut down it tried copying its code and it tried rewriting its code like unprompted yeah I mean it depends on what goal you give it I mean there are there are all these weird examples of this what is this so pull up the headline any eye fights back the story of chat GPT attempting to copy itself so this was six days ago so during controlled safety testing chat GPT 01 was tasked with achieving its objectives at all costs under these conditions the model allegedly took concerning steps attempted to disable oversight mechanisms meant to regulate its behavior tried to replicate its own code to avoid being replaced by newer versions exhibited deceptive behaviors when monitoring systems were intervened yeah so the terminator this is the fear right I think you need to be careful with with these things like what guardrails you give it if you're telling it like at all costs at all costs right then I mean but this is what we're people are terrified of like that a foreign superpower like China is going to say achieve objectives at all costs yeah although the thing about so these reasoning models right so there's like the the first generation of models the their LLMs right that's what you think of as like chat GPT or meta air like the two most used ones and that's basically it's sort of like a chatbot right you ask it a question it takes the prompt it gives you a response now these the next generation of reasoning models are basically instead of just having one response they now are able to build out like a whole tree of how they would they would respond so you give it a question and it instead of running one query it's sort of maybe it's running a thousand queries or a million queries to kind of map out who are the things that I could do and if I do that then here's what I could do next so it's a lot more kind of expensive to run but also gets you better reasoning and is more intelligent that stuff I think you do need to be very careful about how you how you like what the guard rails are that you give it but it's also I think the case that at least for the next you know period it's going to take a lot of compute to run those models and do a lot of the stuff that they're talking about so I don't I think one of the interesting questions is like how much of this you can actually be able to do on a pair of glasses or on a phone versus is it a government or a company that has like a whole data center going to be able to do and that'll I mean it'll always get efficient so you know it's like you can start doing something and then maybe the next year you can do it 10 times more efficiently but that's certainly the next set of things that needs to get worked on in the industry making sure that goes well yeah and then what if that gets attached to quantum computing um I'm not really an expert on quantum computing my understanding is that's still quite a ways off from being a like a a very useful paradigm I think Google just had some breakthrough but I think most people still think that's like a decade plus out so my guess is we're going to have pretty smart AIs even even before that but yeah I mean look I mean I think that this stuff has to get it needs to be developed thoughtfully right but um but I don't know I still think we're generally just going to be better off in a world where this is like deployed pretty evenly and you know it's I guess here's another analogy that I think about there's like bugs and security holes in basically every software every piece of software that everyone uses so if you could go back in time a few years knowing the security holes that we're now aware of you as an individual could basically like break into any system um AI will be able to do that too it'll be able to probe and find exploits so what's the way to prevent AI from going kind of nuts I think part of it is just having AI widely deployed so that way like the AI for one system defends itself against the AI that like is is potentially doing something problematic in another system I think it's like yeah wars that's not wars it's just like it's uh I don't know it's I think it's a very it's sort of like why there are guns right it's like because I mean there's boy like part of it is hunting wars part of it is hunting no no and part of it is like the people can defend each other yeah yeah yeah so it's like virus software yeah it's like I don't think you want to live in a world where like only one person has all the guns yes you certainly don't want to live in a world where only the government has the AI yeah yeah and especially not a world where only a government has the AI and it's not our government yes so yes which I mean I think is is part of the issue is like when people talk I try to lock this stuff down like I just I'm skeptical that that's even possible because I kind of think like if we try to lock it down then we're going to be in a position where the only people are going to have access to it are the big companies working on it and the Chinese government that steals it from them yes um so I kind of just think like no what you want to do is like get this to be open source have it widely available yes some like adversaries might also have access to it but the way that you defend against that is by having it built into all these different systems I think that's a realistic pragmatic perspective because I don't think you can contain it at this point I think it's far too late especially when other countries are working on it it's far too late it's uh it is what it is it's happening and uh I think the guard rails as you said are really important I have to piece hope out so let's pee and come back and talk about a couple of other things yes right back folks so one of the things that I want to talk about was uh I've been doing this thing this transition from apple to android and the difficulty of doing how locked you are in their ecosystem partly because apple does a really good job of incorporating everything and making it very easy your photos your calendar your this or that your i -message but I don't like being attached to one company like that it drives me crazy and when I'm trying to get off it's it's funny how many people you I mean they've done an insane job because like I think there's some enormous percentage of kids today that only use iPhones you know and when you try to switch over to android it's it's so much easier to switch from android to apple because so many people have apple when you switch from apple to android you kind of have to like redo your whole system it's such a pain the ass but there's so much of what apple does that I don't like and one of the big ones is the way they do that apple store where they they charge people 30 percent but that seems so insane that they can get away with doing that and I know I have some opinions about this I know that's why I brought it up yeah no I I mean look um the iPhone is obviously one of the most important inventions probably of all time um you know Steve Jobs came out with it in 2007 I started Facebook in 2004 so he was working on the iPhone while I was getting started with Facebook so I basically you know one of my one of the things that's been interesting in my 20 years of running the company is that I basically like the the dominant platform out there this smart phones on the one hand it's been great for us because we are able to build these tools that everyone can have in their pocket and there's like four billion people who use the different apps that we use and it's like I'm grateful that that platform exists but we didn't play any role in and basically building that those phones because I mean it was kind of getting worked on why I was you know still just trying to make the first website that I was making into a thing and um on the one hand it's been great because you know now pretty much everyone in the world has a phone and that's a kind of it enables pretty amazing things but in the other hand like you're saying um they have used that platform to put in place a lot of rules that I think it feel arbitrary and feel like you know they haven't really invented anything great in a while and it's like Steve Jobs invented the the iPhone and now they're just kind of sitting on it 20 years later and you know actually I think you're over a year I'm not even sure they're selling more iPhones at this point I think like the sales might actually be declining um I think part of it is that each generation doesn't actually get that much better so people are just taking longer to upgrade than they would before so the number of sales I think has generally been flat to declining so how are they making more money as a company well they do it by basically like squeezing people and like you're saying like having this 30 % tax on developers um by getting you to buy more peripherals and things that plug into it um you know they build stuff like AirPods which are cool but they've just thoroughly hamstrung the ability for anyone else to build something that can connect to the iPhone in the same way so I mean there are a lot of other companies in the world that would be able to build like a very good earbud but it just um Apple has a specific protocol that they've built into the iPhone that allows AirPods to basically connect to it and um and it's just much more seamless because they've enabled that but they don't let anyone else use the protocol if they did there would probably be much better competitors to AirPods out there and um whenever you push on this they get super touchy and they they basically wrap their defensive it in well if we let other companies plug into our thing then that would violate people's privacy and security it's like no just do a better job designing the protocol right I mean we have um you know we basically ask them for the Rayband medic glasses that we built um can we basically use the protocol they use the for for AirPods and and some of these other things to just make it so we can as easily connect so it's it's not like you know a pain in the ass for people who want to use this and you know it's a they they oh I think one of the protocols that they've used um that they built they basically didn't encrypt it so it's like plain text um and they're like well we can't have you plug into it because it would be insecure it's like it's insecure because you didn't build any security into it and then now you're using it as a justification for why only your product can connect it in in in an easy way it's like the whole thing is kind of wild um and I'm pretty optimistic that just because they've been so off their game in terms of not really releasing many innovative things that eventually I mean the good news about the tech industry is it's like it's just super dynamic and things are constantly getting invented and I think companies if you just don't do a good job for like 10 years eventually you're just gonna get beat by someone um but I don't know I mean at some point I did this like back of the envelope calculation of like all the random rules that Apple puts out um if you know if they didn't apply like I think you know it's like and this is just meta I think we like make twice as much profit or something and and that's just us I mean it's like all these small companies that like probably can't even exist because of the taxes that they put in place so yeah I I think it's a it's a big issue I wish that they would just kind of get back to building good things and not having their ability to compete be connected to just like advantages in their stuff because I'm pretty sure what they're gonna do is like they're gonna take something like this Rayband meta you know category that we've kind of created with the Rayband and the company that built that they're like the really great AI glasses and I'm pretty sure Apple's just gonna like try to build a version of that but then just like advantage how it connects to the phone and well they did that with their AR goggle thing but it's not very successful no that one they didn't actually connect into the rest of their ecosystem but I mean look I mean they shipped something for $3 ,500 that I think is worse than the thing that we shipped for $300 or $400 so I mean that clearly was not going to work very well now I mean look I mean they're a technology company I think they're they're their second and third version will probably be better than their first version but yeah no I think the the the vision pro is I think one of the bigger swings at doing a new thing that they tried in a while and you know I don't want to give them too hard of a time on it because we do a lot of things where the first version isn't that good you want to kind of judge the third version of it but I mean the V1 it definitely did not hit it out of the park I heard it's really good for watch movies well it's it's the the whole thing is it's got a super sharp screen so if you're yeah so if you want to basically have a an experience where you're not moving around much in VR you just want to have the sharpest screen then for that one use case I think the vision pro is better than Quest which is our our mixed reality headset but in order to get to that they had to make all these other trade -offs right in order to have a super high resolution screen they had to put in all this more compute in order to power the higher as screen and then all that compute needed a bigger battery so now the thing is really heavy so now it's uncomfortable to wear and and then like because of the screen that they chose as you move your head which you would if you're actually interacting with your playing games like the the kind of image blurs a bit and that's kind of annoying so it's actually worse for things where you're moving around in but no for the if you're going to sit if you're like on a flight and you want to have a $3 ,500 dollar device that you use to to watch videos vision pro is better for that use case they're really good at keeping you in their walled garden that's what they're really good at yeah I mean the the whole thing that they've done with iMessage where they basically they do this whole blue bubble green bubble thing and it basically I mean they're like for kids it's just sort of like they embarrass you right they're like if you don't have a blue bubble you're not cool and you're like the out crowd and then they always wrap it in like security it's like oh well we do this blue bubble because of security meanwhile the Google and others have this whole protocol to be able to do encrypted text messages that um finally I think Apple was forced implemented yeah yeah I think like I think it was the Chinese government that basically ended up forcing them to do it or some other government but it's still not encrypted even when you're sending RCS text messages I don't think it's encrypted oh I thought it was but maybe I think it's only encrypted Google to Google phones I don't think it's encrypted iPhone to Google phones or Google phones to iPhones because I think that was actually uh buzzes the FBI someone released that saying telling people that if they're talking about sensitive things they should use encrypted apps like what's app see we can find that it was something where they were saying that contrary to popular belief that RCS texting to iPhone yeah GSMA implement and encryption for RCS messaging we see it I'm not a good answer I'm trying to find it okay I don't have anything to show you yet I was trying to read yeah so so Google RCS to are like I don't know if this Android phone to Android phone is encrypted with RCS I think the issue comes with it going from so like say Google um Google this uh Google RCS texting to iPhones is it encrypted RCS texting to iMessage is it encrypted because I'm pretty sure it's not I might be wrong don't think I'm I'm pretty sure I read that and the problem was they won't let any other phone use the iMessage protocol and they had a company that was doing it called beeper and they were doing it through some sort of work around yeah it's not encrypted yeah that's what I'm saying yeah so it's not so you're you are getting the ability to send high resolution images which is great because you know like my friend Brian who used an Android he'd send me a video and it'd be this tiny little broken down box because you know you had to break it down to the lowest resolution yeah now I mean group chats when you have a bunch of people in iMessage and then one person as an Android are terrible I mean that's really a ton of people people get mad at you because I use what's up so I use what's up you only use that I only communicate with a few people over SMS but it's um but basically um I mean I mean I build you know a lot of a leading messaging services so I've got to use ours I most people on either WhatsApp or Instagram direct or a messenger um but yeah um so I think it's it's maybe I maybe people are less less likely to get mad at me for asking them to use WhatsApp because uh because you don't really make WhatsApp yeah so when um Tucker Carlson was about to interview Vladimir Putin one of the things that was really disturbing was they contacted him and said they read his signal messages and they knew that he was gonna interview Vladimir Putin and he was like what the fuck who did the the government the US yes US government I forget what it was was the CIA or was the FBI wow I forget who it was um but and he was like I didn't even know you could do that like well there are multiple vulnerabilities and all this stuff it's like it's unclear if I doubt that what they did was they broke signal um because that encryption I think is pretty good as is WhatsApp I mean it's basically signal and WhatsApp use the same encryption it's it's an open source and it's like it's a NSA um NSA okay but someone could break into your phone and see everything that's on your phone but the thing that encryption does that's really good is um it makes it so that the company that's running the service doesn't see it so if you're using WhatsApp basically when I text you on WhatsApp there's no point at which the meta servers see the contents of that message unless like you know we took a photo of it or shared that back to meta in some other way um that basically it cuts out the company completely from it which is I think really important for a bunch of reasons one is people might not trust the company uh but also just security issues right like let's say someone hacks into meta which you know we try really hard to make it so that they can't and we haven't had many issues with that over the 20 years of running the company but in theory if someone did then they'd be able to access everyone's messages if it weren't encrypted but because it's encrypted there's just nothing there right it's like I mean they can't hack into meta and then get access to your messages so now someone like the NSA or CIA would have to kind of hack into your phone which um you know there were there were probably ways to do that Pegasus I mean they're probably a bunch of ways yeah yeah there's probably ways we don't know of yeah and and then of course and there's always the ultimate kind of physical part of it which is if you have access to the computer you can usually just break in right so that's why you know if the FBI you know rests you and takes your phone they're probably going to be able to get in and see what's there mm -hmm um so what's happening encrypted but if someone has something like Pegasus what they do is have access to your phone so it doesn't matter if anything's encrypted they could just see it in plain sight yeah then I mean this is one of the reasons why we put disappearing messages in too because that way oh yeah if someone has compromised your phone and they can see everything that's going on there then obviously they can see stuff as it comes in but I kind of in general just you know I think we should keep around as little of that stuff as possible so there are some threads where you know it's like there's photos that get shared you want the photos but I think for a lot of threads a lot of people just you know it wouldn't be I don't think most people would miss it if most of the contents of their threads just disappeared after seven days right um you know what what I find is I don't I don't use it that much because we have this like corporate policy at meta that we need to retain all our our documents and messages and stuff but um but before we had that I I used it as we were developing this and every once in a while I would miss something and say wow I kind of wish I could go back and see that but it was very rare I think most communication it's kind of like you just have the communication and then you're done so having it be encrypted and disappearing I think is a pretty good kind of standard of security and privacy and you can set that disappearing time on WhatsApp right you can make it one day if you want yeah you can do one day you can do seven days um and you can also set it across all your threads you can have a default timer so that way as new threads get created your default timer just becomes the default for all those threads so I know that's a it's a really good feature and I basically think WhatsApp and signal are probably the two most secure that are out there on that and of those two I think WhatsApp is just used by a lot more people so I think it's it's generally you know I mean I would say this because it's it's it's our product but I do think it's the better product but but I think WhatsApp and signal are basically you know the two most secure ones what was your take on that guy getting arrested the CEO of telegram oh man um that's what a crazy one right yeah I mean it's always a little difficult to weigh in on these situations without knowing all the specifics but one of the government tactics that I've seen that I think is pretty is not great is an increasing number of governments when they like have an issue with something that a company is doing basically just like threatened to throw the executives of that company in prison and it's like I think that's just a really weird precedent to set right it's like it's if if the you have all the so it's like we're operating in all these different countries and then like you have all these governments that are basically like if you I don't we're gonna like put out an interpol notice to like get you arrested because you're not doing the thing that we want it's like I don't know I don't I think that's like not great I think you want the I mean obviously you don't want people to just be like flagrantly violating the laws but like there are laws in different countries that we disagree with right so for example there was a point at which I think I was someone was trying to get me sentenced to death in Pakistan because they thought that oh because someone on Facebook had a picture of where they had the drawing of the prophet Muhammad and someone said that that's blasphemy in our culture and they brought a they basically like sued me and they opened this criminal proceeding and I don't know exactly where it went because I'm just not planning on going to Pakistan so I was not that worried about it but but like but but it was a little bit disconcerting it was like all right fine like these guys are like trying to like like kill you okay it's not great right you know it's terrible yeah I mean it's like I feel like I yeah it's like flying over that region you don't want your plane to like go down above Pakistan if that thing it goes through but um but that one was sort of avoidable but the point is like there are all these places around the world that just have different values right that go against like our free expression values and want us to crack down and and ban way more stuff than I think you know a lot of people that we would believe is like the right thing to do and to have those governments be able to exert the power of saying okay we're going to like throw you in prison is um that's a lot of force I mean so I think it's it's generally yeah I think that this is one of the things that that the US government is probably going to need to help defend the American tech companies for abroad but I don't I can't weigh in that much on the derives specific thing because I don't know what was going on there you know when you're dealing with the the government trying to interfere with Facebook um how much of a fear was there that they were going to get away with it and that this was going to be the future of communication online that it was going to they were going to be successful with all this that they would push these things through somehow or another especially if a even less tolerant administration got into power and they would change laws and they would do things to make it possible like how how much did that concern you well we basically just reached a point where we pushed back on all the stuff right so they were pushing us to censor stuff we were unwilling to do it we developed a very adversarial and bad relationship with our own government which I think is just not healthy because I think you know it's um I mean in in theory I think you know it would be good if the like American industry had a positive relationship with the American government um but then what that happened is then the the kind of US government was going after us in all these ways but fortunately in the US you know we have good rule of law so our view is at the end of the day okay these invest these agencies can open up investigations and we'll just defend ourselves right we'll go to court and we'll win all the cases because we're you know we follow the rules and um so I think it ends up being a big kind of political issue where it's like it would just be you could get a lot more done if the government were helping American companies rather than kind of slowing you down at every step along the way it makes you a little afraid that if you ever actually mess something up that they're really going to bring them or down on you if you don't have a constructive relationship but um but I don't know it's mostly I'm going back to the AI conversation it's like I just think like we should all want the American companies to win at this right it's like this is like a huge geo political competition and like China's running at it's super hard and like we should want the American companies and the American standard to win and like if there's going to be an open source model that everyone uses like we should want it to be an American model right it's like the there's this great Chinese model that just came out this company deep seek um they're doing really good work um it's a very advanced model and if you ask it for any negative opinions about Xi Jinping it will not give you anything if you ask it if Tiananmen Square happened it will deny it right so I think of there like all these things where we we we should we should want the American model to win but like at every step along the way if the government is sort of making that harder rather than easier than that's I don't know I mean there's there's an extent to which okay the American tech industry is leading so maybe the government can like get in the way a little bit and maybe the the American industry will still lead but I don't know it's I think it's getting really competitive and I think like it's easy for the government to take for granted that the US will lead on all these things when I think it's a very close competition and we need the help not you know we need them to not kind of like you know be a be a force that's helping us to do these things I completely agree but I think that people with their own self -interest when they're in power and they realize that these new technologies like Instagram and Facebook that they are interfering with their ability to administer propaganda or that they're their ability to control the narrative that that's where they get short -sighted and that's when they act in their own personal interest and not in the interest of not in either national security or the future of the United States in terms of our ability to stay technologically ahead yet and some of this is just you know if you go back to the COVID example I think in that case they were doing something their goal of trying to get everyone to get vaccinated was actually I think a good goal right it's like I was a good goal if it worked if it was real like if it was a sterilizing vaccine if it really did prevent people from getting COVID it really did prevent people from infecting others or transmitting it but it didn't well but it wasn't a good deal because it wasn't based on real data yeah but but also even but even if it were right it's like if I mean I think that still on balance knowing everything that we we know now still it's good for more people to get the vaccine but the government still needs to play by the rules in terms of you know not like can't just suppress true things in order to make your case so I that's that's kind of my my view on it is is I'm not sure in that case how much of it was like a personal political gain that they were going for I think that they had a kind of goal that they thought was in the interests of the country and the way they went about it I think violated the law well there's a bunch of problems with that right there's the emergency use authorization that they needed in order to get this push through and you can't have that without valid with with valid therapeutics being available and so they suppressed valid therapeutics so they're suppressing real information that would lead to people being healthy and successful in defeating this disease and they did that so that they could have this one solution and this was Fauci's game plan I mean this is the movie American virus club or Dallas virus club brother that's Fauci in that movie that was with the AIDS crisis this is exact same game plan I was played out with the covid vaccine they pushed one solution this only one suppressed all therapeutics through propaganda through suppressing monoclonal antibodies like all of it and that was done in my opinion for profit and they did that because it was extremely profitable the amount of money that was made yeah was extraordinary during that time yeah and but look I mean I feel like a bunch of the conversation is focused on attention with the American government I guess just the point that I'd underscore is that it's important to have this working in the American government because it is like the US Constitution and like our culture here is really good compared to a lot of other places right so whatever issues we think might exist here you go to other places and it's like really extreme yeah and you don't even and and there it's like you don't even necessarily have the rule of law right right and um so I just think that like the way that this stuff works well is yeah I think if if there's a clearer strategy in the US government understood believe that it's good to kind of help advance this industry because it's strategically important for the country um then I think it would it would be good to basically push back on stuff that's happening in other countries that's actually a lot more extreme than the stuff that's happening in the US yeah I agree as well listen um is there anything else you want to talk about before we wrap this up then we're good I don't know I mean how long we've been going for three hours yeah I mean well I feel like we touched on we touched on AI we touched on all the augmented and virtual reality stuff and I think a bad stuff is just gonna be wild it's wild the your AR technology that you showed me today is very impressive it's crazy uh Lex and I were playing pong like apart from a table from each other I was playing some crazy game where my fingers got tired because you shoot like this because you're using v1 of the neural interface yeah no it's like it's like in the future will just be this it's like it was really fun though it's really cool and it's it's you see where this is all going you know it's really really fascinating stuff and I'm very excited about it did you get a chance to use the Ray Bands and the AI in them yes we did that too and we did translate to where one of your uh one of your co -workers were speaking to me in Spanish and it was translating it to me in my ear in real time in English which is really interesting nice amazing yeah it's really cool and then you could also do it on the phone so you could show it to the person on the phone so you don't have to say the words like it's really fascinating stuff yeah so I mean we're just sort of coming at it from both sides right it's like the the Ray Bands they're like okay given a good looking pair of glasses what's all the technology you can put into that today and still have it be you know just a few hundred dollars and then the Orion thing is like all right we're building the kind of future thing that we want and we're doing our best to miniaturize it it's basically like still pretty small yeah I mean just thicker glasses yeah and I think we want it to be a little smaller we need to be a lot cheaper right each pair right now cost more than ten thousand dollars to make and that's not gonna have a successful consumer product at that so we have to miniaturize it more but I mean the amount of stuff that we put in there from it's like effectively like what would have been considered a super computer like ten or twenty years ago plus you know lasers and the arms and the like nano -etchings on the on the lens to be able to see it and the microphone and the speaker and the Wi -Fi to be able to connect with the other it's just like like the wild amount of technology to kind of miniaturize into something that one's really fun we've been working on that for ten years but yeah now I think I think between that the glasses all the AI stuff yeah all the social media stuff yeah I mean I think we covered it and I'm very excited about this new stance that you guys are taking I think the community notes thing is a brilliant idea that you know X is implemented and I think I'm I am really glad that you guys are implementing it too I think it's the way and the way generally I think we both agree is that people have to have the ability to communicate they have to have the ability to express themselves and that's how we find out what's real and what's not yeah I think the more voice is the is the answer on this yeah and I think after a after sort of a long journey I'm glad to be able to take it back to the roots and I felt like we're more fortified now in the position well I think one of the lessons that people have learned over the last few years with the suppression of information is that that's not good and there's a giant percentage of the population that feels that way and even people that are progressive and liberals are on the they were on the side of the people that were pushing the the suppression of information still don't think it's right I think most people generally believe in the first amendment in this country and they we realize how valuable it is to have the freedom of expression yeah anyway thanks for having me thank you Mark for your time bye everybody

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