#2288 - Jacques Vallée

35:47And that, I think that's an amazing contribution from what Dr. to put off and talk and some of their subjects did. Was there a specific way that you achieved a state of mind that made you more able to perceive these coordinates or perceive whatever you, what signal you're getting from remote viewing? There was, I had a lot of admiration and love for Ingo for what he was capable of doing and you know his his art and his personality and so on. He was you know very much admired in the whole the whole team and and here I think it was the the structure also of the experiment you know I I trusted what he was trying to teach me I've always you're open to it You trusted it so you were open to it.

36:50I had both the admiration and the trust. Did he ask you to put your mind in a specific place? Was there a way of counting yourself into it? The idea is not to put my mind into it. It's just to let it. Just let it come. Just be clear. My mind is analytical. Right. Of course. And I was always very good in math.

37:20And you have to be, if you're going to be an astronomer. And so I can be very structured and so on. This is not structured. This is boom. And then you can begin to analyze it, but you have to analyze it, keeping your rational mind away from it. So you just have to let the information come to you somehow or another and not try to imagine the information or create the information or proceed it, just let it happen to you. And so you had seen him do this. And so you knew that this was a valid field of research. So you were just open to it and you just sat down there and tried to let it happen to. Did it happen any other time that was, that resembled the Andes peaks where that you have that overwhelming feeling of cold and falling?

38:21Did you have that feeling with anything else? Yes, I had some of that, but this one was just completely shocking because it was. And I think that's a characteristic of when you really get it, there is no question. And you know in the movie, Patton, Patton is sent to North Africa because to fight But Rommel is very distanced, and the American army isn't ready to invade Europe, but wants to start controlling the Germans in North Africa. He sent there, he lands. There is a lieutenant there with a jeep that takes him to the place where there was a battle, and the Americans were decimated by Rommel, who was just a genius in German general.

39:29Great with tanks, just like he was. Paton considered him as his major enemy because both of them understood tanks. And so, Paton gets in the Jeep, that's in the movie. It's just absolutely perfect. I've checked that this was his historical, you know, exact in the movie. They drive to the site of the battle and they get to, in the desert, in the Jeep. And they get to a fork in the road and the driver takes to the left and Patton said, And son, you know, why don't we go to the right? Because that's where the battle was. And the driver says, sir, you know, we've all due respect. I mean, I was wearing that battle in some the left.

40:26He said, trust me, go to the right. They go to the right and they get to the edge of a plateau where you see a big plane. And Paton says, this is where the battle was with Hannibal came from the left with his edifords. And the battle was there.

40:49And I had been there. I was there. Paton thought that he was reincarnated from a Roman general who had been there. being at that battle against Hannibal and his elephants. And, you know, the poor driver, saying, you know, how did this happen? You know, how did I get here with this general who thinks he's a rain -coated, you know, who fought against Hannibal? And I've worked with people, as you know, I've run a number of venture capital fields, funds with people who had that kind of intuition. And you think finances driven by greed and so on, but at some level greed doesn't really matter. It's getting to the truth of something, especially in venture capital, where you're going to change the way things are done, You know, with these gadgets, with computers, with, you know, rockets and so on.

42:05You're going to go to a new generation of things. So it hasn't been done before. And the financial people, you've got ten engineers in front of you who can do it. There is one who will succeed, nine who's going to fail. And you have to pick the thinking that's going to succeed. I mean, it's not the money and it's not the technology. It's the mind of the driver who say, no, let's go to the right. Let's not go to the left. You know, I mean, Patton was extraordinary in that. I mean, he was a remote viewer. And he demonstrated that again and again. You know, there are some interesting books that I've collected from some of his routines.

43:01You know, who? You would also have to consider that's an extraordinary state of mind. To be a general in a world war and the consequences of everything you do and what is at stake in this war is, got to be a state of mind that's very, very unusual with so many consequences so much pressure that it probably makes some signals more clear if you have that ability to perceive them because you are, you must be in a heightened state of awareness because just the consequences of your life. That's exactly. But you also have to be detached. I mean, eventually he's going to go to the battlefield where the bodies of soldiers have been killed, they're burning tanks and everything else.

43:54They show that in the movie. That's where he's supposed to go. But his mind is at a different level. When did they first start researching this? So when did they believe that this was an ability that some people had? Oh, you know, way back in antiquity. Really? Yeah. And, you know, they had seers that the king would go consult whether he should engage in a war with the Greeks at the Pithia, who was a woman who they had an area, a volcanic area where there were fumes coming out of the earth that was supposed to be one of the doors to the underworld and so on. And there was a special cult around that place.

45:06And the king would go there before great decision, and would ask the message from the underworld, or the message from the mind of the woman who was interpreting what was coming from the earth. So that has been regarded as Hitler. Adolf Hitler was in his, before the war, you know, as when he got to be the leader of Germany, He exhibited and he very much believed in those powers. I think he got to the point where he trusted it too much. He started making mistakes and that could be used against him. He was also the ego out of the way. Of course, that's the hardest thing for us to do. Especially to a narcissist, dictator, who's on drugs.

46:20That's right. Yeah, that's right. Well, that's the always the age old problem with Sears like how do you know who's a charlatan and Who's real because there's always a bunch of fake psychics? There's fake palm readers fake tarot card readers people that are just con artists that are just trying to swindle people out of money but that doesn't discount the possibility that some people have these bizarre abilities. And that is something that people have sort of recognized forever, but it's always been dismissed, especially in this modern day reductionist culture that likes to only look at things that are, you know, tried, true, proven, agreed upon, you know, and then trust the science, like this concept that...

47:11Well, I think in science, I mean the burden is on you as a scientist to come up with an experiment that will discriminate between the random things and will give you guides to... Well, I think that's what they've done with it to leopathy tapes. And I'm hoping the success of this and then they're going to do a whole series on it where they're doing a documentary and they're showing all the footage so you're going to be able to see it for yourself. I'm hoping that this stops the ridicule because there's a bunch of scientists and I think this is with the UAP topic as well. The UFO topic as well. I think there's a bunch of people that don't want to consider it because there's too much bullshit out there and there's too much of a possibility that you could look like a fool.

48:04and to a very respected scientist whose research is very important as you were talking about with the IBM thing where there's hundreds of millions of dollars that are dedicated towards these. Why would you risk all that and the credibility of all that on this nonsense about people seeing things with their brain in a closed room, finding coordinates, pretending they're on top of a mountain, all that kind of stuff? Well, fortunately, you know, suddenly, you know, in California, there are people who can take risk, you know, and put a few million dollars behind something. Charlotte Stanford. Yeah.

48:51And, you know, as you know, I come from France and in France, it's very, very hard to do that, you know, because the system is very structured and very conventional and so on. Even though France has had some of the brightest people in that kind of research. So it's just a cultural limitation of the culture? Yeah. It's sort of everything has to be rational because America is a little more chaotic. And they also, as you know, France has had for a long time, has had a project on UFOs, a official project. And that takes reports from the public and they investigate them. And it's a very small team, but they have access to all the resources of French research.

49:42So they can, you know, they can get the weather people, they can get the, you know, the Air Force, they can get the radar people, they can get all of that. So they can tap into the resources of a lot of different departments of the government. So it's very powerful. So they will explain, they find a rational explanation for about 95 % of all the reports. Which is true. I agree with that. You know, I've been there. So it's about 95 % you could explain away. It's not hoaxes. Those are people who really think that they've seen something unusual. But what was unusual to them may have been the moon rising through the fog and it looks like an elongated disc.

50:32And then after a while, it's a thing's changed. So on and then Paul Lightning. Yeah, there's a few things. They really think they've seen a flying saucer coming over. There are about 200 or 250 possible physical things that really could surprise you. You know, that are unusual, that would create conditions under which a normal person would think that they are in the presence of a UFO. Then, you know, what's interesting is the other 5 percent. Yes. The other 5 percent is in your face. You know, I have reports of something that moved like the Tic Tac, you know, from the French Air Force in the 50s.

51:23It was a French jet over Morocco that was flying and there was a radar tracking the jet. And I had the reports from the French Air Force with the chart and that the thing he was chasing went up, you know, all in the fractional of a second went to the top of the atmosphere, you know, just like the nimble case. So those things are not new. I mean they are in the files if you take the trouble to look at the facts. And they're in the files far back enough in history that it's impossible to imagine human technology achieving these things. Absolutely. Especially in the 50s. Well the Kenneth Arnold case had gone into space.

52:10Yeah there's a bunch of cases that rule out the possibility of human technology. When you're talking about people using propeller planes and seeing these things, we were at a time technologically where it's not possible to imagine that someone had gone that far beyond us. Now we are in that time where you see things you go, well how much of that is some sort of top secret government program, some military program, and they have drones that can move at extraordinary speeds with some undisclosed propulsion system. That's possible today, at least theoretically. It's, you know, we entertain those ideas.

52:50But back then, this is one of the most fascinating things. I told you last night that I consumed three of your books in the last six months. And there was this series of three that you did that had a bunch of different encounters, not just right now I'm on the Invisible College, but the last ones that I read were the ones on various contacts that people have had and the similarity of these stories. And they go way back, way back. Way back before it was sort of a cultural artifact. Like right now I think in people's minds, the gray aliens are so iconic. A flying saucer like that. That's a copy of the sport model from Bob Lazar's adventures.

53:36These things are in pop culture to the point where you almost would expect to see them. You look for them. If you see something, you could imagine that you could twist it up in your mind and make it like that. But the problem is these stories go way before that. They're too similar. They go a long, long way back. And there's too many that are very, very similar to what we're talking about today. to the point where a rational person would have to say, maybe there's something more to this. What do you got there? Yeah, I brought you this, it's a token, it's not a coin, it's a token from Burgundy in France from the, you know, a few centuries ago.

54:30The Duke of Burgundy was under attack, There was a lot of turmoil in French politics, and the king was fighting the noble, the great nobility, and so on, was in cahoots to get rid of the king, and so on. And they were going to be attacked. And he needed money to raise an army, and he appealed to people in Burgundy to send him money. And this was a token that the king, the Duke, would give people who had given him money to raise this army. And on the face of it is this disc that's holding up, that's protecting the land from forces above, you know, there are all these arrows raining down on the land and the land is protected by this flying disc.

55:38So it doesn't mean that they had seen a flying saucer at that time, but the idea has always been there of, you know, disc -like objects that were that were not meteors, that were not all the natural explanation, that were real disc. You find that in legends, you find that in history way back. You see if you could find an image of this, we could show people, you found it, yeah that's it. Yep. Yes. Wow. You see, it's protecting the land and it's hovering in the sky, protecting it from all of thunder clouds above. Well, you know, there were a few of those things in history. And, you know, I've collected those with a group of...

56:36Couldn't that be interpreted as a shield? Well, it is shown as a shield, you know, that's going to stop all those arrows. Right, but that's what they use to stop arrows back then they use the shields. Yes. Yes. That does not just make I mean that doesn't seem to me to be a UFO. It seems to me to be a shield. They would protect. Yes, but it's it's also you know it's not exactly the shape of a You know of a shield my most shields are or more orblanc, but some of them are around. But the point is it's hovering in the sky, protecting the land underneath. And choir. And I think some of the more compelling stuff is like the stuff in the ancient Hindu scripts, the Vimanas and all these different flying crafts that people described.

57:33That they've always been a thing that people have described. And we've been able to trace it to actual investigations or actual records because of course when people described something like that, especially if there was some sort of being associated with it, you know, it could be the devil, it could be that. So they had to see a priest and confess and they were in trouble if you reported that thing most of the time you'd be in trouble because it couldn't be a normal thing. So today they just fire you from wherever you work. Yeah, probably. Or maybe you're a cook. And then stop people. They don't burn you alive.

58:22And people, yeah, that's lucky. But people do have a fear, a legitimate fear of being ridiculed and that could stop their ability to be promoted within whatever organization they're in. You don't want to thank, oh, there's cookie Bob over there who thinks the aliens are watching us. The best cases I get are from executives in Silicon Valley whose family has seen something or who have seen something and they've described, you know, frankly, UFOs to me and they can relate her. So that looks way different. So that coin is much more compelling because that looks like something flying the sky above the city.

59:08That doesn't look very shield at all. And what is that peak at the bottom of it? That's the same thing. Yeah, that's very different. You can tell much more come up. Those things have been in the culture. Yeah, now I'm begging you, sort of repress in the culture. And the anthropologists don't want to look at that. There's a really old painting, like a biblical painting of these people that look like they're flying around and like seated in these crafts, they're in the sky. I've never seen any sort of a conventional explanation, and what is that artist depicting? So usually the explanation, when you read what the historians have said, it's supposed to be some god or some higher level entity that's coming to protect people and so on.

1:00:05But when you look at the detail, I mean, it really looks like a machine. It really looks mechanical. You can find that image, Jamie. Do you know the one on Procurement? Is this one? Yeah, that's exactly it. But we wanted to, like, the one on the lower right, well, both of them, but the lower, like, what is that? That looks like a craft. It looks like someone's seated in a craft. It's an, you know, an envoy from God or an angel who's been sent. But the problem with those is that the painting, you know, it may relate to something that was written in the third century. The painting is a 16th century painting.

1:00:45So we didn't look at that much. I mean, it's interesting from a symbol like the one with a virgin. So it may be that the artist was witness to something and he wanted to memorialize it and he put it in his painting, but it's not tied to the time of the Virgin. Right, right, right. They just added it in there. So that's what we're going to be in the background. We stayed away from that. We wanted to go to records of somebody having actually testified that he saw something or she saw something. Right, not just artwork. Right. But it just is very bizarre that this artwork continually depicts people in crafts.

1:01:35And look, what is that thing? Yes. And there is a communication with the man who's looking up at it. He's looking at it and there is a sense of that he's actually seeing it, having a sense of what it is. It's like an Easter egg that someone put into the painting. So this may be that the The artist put that in as a side, of course, the main theme is the version of the child. What's that one over there, Jamie, in the second row that says, Inside, Ancient, you had that one. What the hell is that? That's what really freaks me out is the paintings on cave walls that look just like Well, these bizarre paintings of things that just look like they are people wearing helmets.

1:02:31And the most interesting to me come from the Sahara. You know, the French anthropologists who worked with the UN in Africa and so on and in part of the Sahara. And one theory they have is that the culture that eventually moved to Egypt came from the Sahara. So I say, well, Sahara is just saying. Well, it's just saying today. But we know that at one time it was flourishing. There were forests, there was water. In fact, there is water, but it's underground water. It's a large amount of underground water. There was a sea there at one time. And so there probably was an earlier civilization And some of those come from the Tassili.

1:03:35The Tassili is a region in the Sahara where there are a lot of those representations. So there were a lot of people living there at one time and they painted that on the rocks. See if you can find some of those, Jamie? Yeah. And you see similar things that indigenous people in Australia have painted, similar things. It's all over the world. Yes. And completely separate environments, very similar features in these cave paintings. And, well, I think archaeologists wouldn't disagree with that. I think they would say, but the problem is that we don't correlate it. I mean, they didn't write anything.

1:04:19Right. You know, the... It's open to interpretation. We don't have a good correlation. So we have to keep looking for that. But that's, you know, that's fascinating. But in our book we made the rule that number one, we don't want isolated human figures even with suits and so on. We really want a device, a flying device. Otherwise you could fill 40 books with images of strange creatures. I mean, what are the things that people see around the ranch now in Utah? In Utah, in all of that. So, have to be careful on the boundaries of those things. But we wanted to get to a place where there was testimony about somebody seeing a flying disc that was strange to them in their culture.

1:05:32And remember, in those cultures, those were agricultural cultures. So with people who were used to interpreting the weather, looking at the phases of the the moon looking at the rising time of the sun and all that was important for their agriculture. So they knew their environment very well, better than we do as people living in cities. So we can take that to some extent that has a scientific value, especially when you can build a model of a number of those across different centuries. But in that book, we were careful to break the book into sections, corresponding to different evolution of the culture, explaining first to couple of pages what was happening during that time in terms of new inventions, like when the telescope was invented, when certain things were discovered and so on.

1:06:41So we were careful to put it in context with every reinterpreting the description by the witness in the context that was appropriate. Well, it was very thorough and very objective, which is what I really enjoyed about it, where you were very clear what we absolutely knew and very clear what could be nonsense and myth and that one of the things that keeps occurring over and over again is these similar stories. The stories are really similar from the 1700s to the 1800s into the 20th century and then you again now it gets more muddy because now you have a bunch of people that realize that there's value in concocting a story and then talking about it and selling a book and there's, I think there's people that are grifters and I think they, you know, I've probably had a few of them on.

1:07:41They are capitalizing on this desire that people have for stories. Also now we think that the government has the answer. So people spend their time, you know, writing to different agencies and listening listening to reports from pilots, which is fine, of course. And people in the military, people in the intelligence community. But those are very valuable because they have now they have instruments to actually measure what they see on the F18 and some on. And they are covered by radar and by AWACs and everything else. So we can rely on that. So, scientists and many people like the numerical aspect of it.

1:08:35I don't do that. I mean, I don't pretend to have access to that. I mean, we had access on the big low and on the bass to some of that, including some of the classified things that had happened. But there is a much richer pool of data, which is, you know, a friend tells me about the sighting in the country somewhere. I can go there, I can go see the people, and I can find out exactly what happened. And I continue to do that. And that's most of my data. And it's 10 times bigger than the stuff they talk about from the Pentagon. I mean, it's real data. I don't need to have a clearance to go see the people and sit down.

1:09:30If I'm lucky, they'll invite me for lunch. And I can talk to the kids, I can talk to the wife, I can talk to the people who took care of the cattle, and they'll tell me.

1:09:44That's where most of my information is really coming from. And it's not, you know, it's just very much in your face. And it's consistent. How consistent are the shapes of the craft?

1:10:03It's a tough question, you know. Many of the descriptions have to do with discs, you know. And eggs are different sizes, you know. Some of them are very large. A number of descriptions have to do with, you know, for a long time, with cigar -shaped objects, you know, cylindrical, rounded at the end, sometimes with what people describe as windows that may just be openings with light, in the side of it, it doesn't have to be what we think of as a window. And then you have some irregular shapes, you know, just balls of light, that physicists interpret as maybe plasma, but plasma doesn't survive in the air, you know, shouldn't survive in the air more than a minute maybe, about people have seen some of those things for minutes and longer, you know, long enough to take pictures of it and so on.

1:11:18And it's not necessarily glowing. It's not necessarily luminous the way, you know, plasma would be. So we don't know what they are and they've paintings of that kind of thing from the 18th century or the 17th century. Yeah. So that I've collected and published. So what are the most compelling paintings? What are the most compelling paintings that we could find right now from like 1700s or 1800s?

1:12:03I think there is a beautiful painting of hills and three blue spheres that are not moving that seem to be suspended in the air, very distinct blue spheres that were seen and somebody, you know, recorded it and somebody did a painting of the scene. Those are things that people wanted to remember because they knew it was. And what year was this painting from? I don't remember the year. I couldn't tell you. 16, 17th century. Do you know the name of it? Like, so Jamie could try to find it online? No, I could send you the picture. Okay. Okay. So there's also a bunch of depictions of egg -shaped crafts.

1:13:02Yes? This is very common as well, right? Yes. And the couple that you had in one of your books from, was it the mining people? Was it California? Was it you? It was in Nevada. I wrote a book with Paul Harris called Trinity about a neck shaped object that happened in 1945 near White Sands. That now we have reinvestigated it. The first book was criticized and appropriately by someone who said, I hadn't gone to enough of the written records. Well, now I've done that. So we've republished the book, it's called Trinity. And it covers three cases. In all three cases, the object is X -shaped, the size of a medium -sized truck.

1:14:05It would fit in this room. It would be about the size of this room. Then there is a case in Socorro, and there is a case in Valenzogl. So, Korro and Valenzog, and people have concentrated on the first one, you know, the one that because it's two years before Roswell, and there were witnesses there. You know, it was well, there were no witnesses, there were people who came later, who found the stuff and they reconstructed the story and it's a very interesting story. But at Trinity, they saw it arrive and they saw it crash. And they were there for ten days afterwards, watching the recovery. And they went inside.

1:14:54One of them went inside. And his father went inside also. So we have a very rich description of that. And where is it in the literature? No, where? I mean, you know, Paola Harris found this, he did research for four years on that, and then told me about it, and then we did another four years of research together at the site, and we found a lot of correlations. But there are the Socorro case and the Valenzel case. Could you explain, tell me before we move on those other cases, what correlations did you find? Well, in all three cases it's an egg -shaped object. In all three cases are traces that could be seen, could be described, could be analyzed.

1:15:47In all three cases, beings are short. There You know, about three feet, three and a half feet, they breathe air. What kind of extra -trial is that? That comes here in breathes the air. Okay, we don't go, if we go to the moon, we're not going to breathe the air. How do we know that it breathes at all? How do we know that these things breathe at all? They had no breathing. How do we even know that they're biological? They had two eyes, the small nose, the small mouth, but couldn't they possibly be some sort of a creation? Instead of being a biological entity, couldn't they be some sort of artificial life?

1:16:32So I've asked Gary Nolan about that, you know, I mean, I'm not a biologist. And I think it would be known if somebody had created a Meta -human. I don't mean somebody. I mean, another life form for some world. There were stories of the Russians actually thinking about creating a dwarf, of human to pilot their ships because they didn't expect to have the energy to have a big rocket. I tell you now they found a rocket. They were trying to get tiny people to power their ships because they were lighter. But the CIA was looking into rumors that the Russians in the 50s, you know, before Sputnik, that the Russians were trying to create a humanoid that could pilot a spaceship.

1:17:44Well, I know that the Russians, there were some talk of them trying to create a human ape hybrid. They were trying to do something with chimpanzees and try to create some sort of a human chimpanzee hybrid for war, which is a terrifying thought that they would, first if they were successful at terrifying with that being, but just that they were interested in doing that, creating a race of chimpanzee human warriors.

1:18:15There was no, to my knowledge, there hasn't been any correlation of that, and the creatures that I'll describe in Socorro in New Mexico and in Valenzal in France, so those are the are three cases that I've been very involved in from the beginning, from day one, involved creatures that are about three feet tall, that breathe our air, recognize our signals, communicate with us in funny ways, even mentally. I mean, the witnesses describe getting images in their minds in all three cases. And what's interesting is people can argue about Trinity or they want, like they argue about Roswell, but the case in Socorro and the case in France, in Valenzog, were investigated by governments, not by the local UFO group, although the local UFO group did a good job in all those cases.

1:19:29But they were in Socorro, it was first they, you know, local police, local policemen, this, so the craft and the beings and describe what happened. They, he was terrified, you know, when the thing took off. He thought it was something to do with some new gadget or some work in the desert. It's an area that's still in the same state today. I've gone back there with Dr. Reineck's son, you know, with Paul Reineck a few months ago. I've gone several times there. And so after the police turned out the FBI was in town on another case. They had no jurisdiction in New Mexico for that particular case. It wasn't a federal case, But they helped preserve the traces, you know, the FBI way.

1:20:23And the local police was happy to have them there. And then there was the state police came in and did an investigation. And then people from the base came in with experts in explosives, experts in recovery of weapons and rockets and so on, because they felt it might be something that had come from the Trinity range that was out of its way and had crashed near Socorro, in which case they might have responsibility including financial responsibility if something was destroyed or whatever. So this was very serious. I have the whole fight. It's a big fight. Nobody is looking at it. I mean the investigation in Washington now they are saying we're going to look at the cases of the last 12 months.

1:21:21What kind of science is that? Can you imagine scientists reading this? And this is where they are going to solve the UFO problem by looking at vague pictures of lights in the sky for one year. You know why don't they go back to those records, those are federal records. The case in Valenzor, five agencies of the French government. This guy was a farmer. He had a field where he was growing plants to make perfume. So this was high level, you know, expensive crop. This wasn't just, you know, alpha alpha or something. And he goes there at five o 'clock in the morning because he wants to water the thing, and so on before the sun is up, because it's going to be very...

1:22:15it's self -apprance, it's going to be very hot, you can't work in the field during the early afternoon. So he wants to be done with that. He sees this contraption in the middle of the field, crushing the plants. And so he sneaks in and he's paralyzed. Now there is an egg -shaped object, just like they want, you know, a trinity, just like they want in socorro. It's a size of a mid -sized truck. There are two creatures in front of it, a human, you know, a human looking, two eyes, breathing air. They look at them, sort of amused. And one of them has something on his belt. It takes out points at him, and that's when he's paralyzed.

1:23:08Now, as you know, I'm not a doctor, but I've gone to doctors about what kinds of paralysis is that where you can stand up and watch something. You just can't move. They said, well, there is a type of paralysis that will just inhibit the motor, you know, a motor nerves, where you, but you'll still be up and aware. You're not going to fall down in a heap. And from there, he sees them going back inside the thing. The thing takes off. It takes off like a shut out of a gun. It vanishes in midair. Now, he goes to see the gendarmes. This man is fairly wealthy. He owns quite a bit of several fields, expensive crops.

1:24:02His wife is the mayor of the town. The gendarmes are going to be very careful with him because he's also from the resistance in World War II when he was young, joined the resistance and the resistance in that part of France fought in the Alps against the Germans, and they were regarded as heroes of World War 2. And so the Jardons have very careful with him. There are some things he's not going to tell the Jardons because he thinks, and I went there. He didn't want to talk to anybody from Paris. He didn't want to be on TV. He wanted to concentrate on his experience because he thought there was going to be something else.

1:24:56And he was aware of some of his buddies. This is a part of France where people talk, but they have secrets too, I mean, historically, you know. There are things like that in the US, you know, parts where people are not going to talk to strangers. The only reason I could go there was that I went there with a lady who was from Paris, was with the government. She was with the golds government. She had the rank of ambassador and she had a vacation home there. So we went there for three days and she knew everybody there. And he told us what he thought might happen again. And so he didn't want the shantams to extend with what he was doing.

1:25:49Why did he think that something was going to happen again? And they evidently, and he saw us to secrecy about what it was, but evidently there was communication with the beings when he was there. Now, these beings just tiny, look like people, did they have different features than us? Or was it just you and me? They are just like the ones at Trinity and like the ones at Sokoro. So, in that book you have actually two, two, and three, you have seven creatures that are human that breathe our air that seem to understand us, you know, the visual, you know, there is visual contact. Well, we can have visual contact with animals.

1:26:42I mean, that doesn't mean they are human or metayuman, but there is messages that come through all of that, that the witnesses are reluctant to talk about in all three cases. So, in Socorro, finally, the Air Force went there, they threw the Air Force out because the Air Force said, well, you know, that's just a gadget, you know, from the base. And that was stupid. So they finally sent Dr. Heineck there. And the Dr. Heineck asked me to organize the farms that were coming. I was at North Western at that time, you know, working, working. I had done my PhD already and I was on the staff of the Computing Center.

1:27:34And we had a small team trying to help, you know, free, trying to help high -knit keep the files together. So we were, you know, in communication with him the whole time. and then I put the files together and I have a file. You know, this is the official file. So these people were reluctant to talk about what these creatures were communicating with them. But did they talk about it at all? It was very personal. Very personal. There had been a communication that transcended their life. There was something else, something outside. So you could almost call it a sort of religious feeling, but it wasn't about divinity or God specifically, but it was about the other side of life, some bigger meaning for life.

1:28:44That's their interpretation. There may be other things that they are trying to communicate. But it was very profound. Yes. And all three cases had similar stories in that regard. And in all three cases, there are traces that were measured. There is technology of thought. In the case of Socorro, people came up with all kinds of ideas that maybe it was a balloon, a special balloon. There were only 12 of them in the world. And so on. Well, in the book, people haven't noticed it, but in the book, I was able to solve that problem because I found a transcript of a conversation with a man who was head of motor pool at the Army range at White Sands.

1:29:54And he had given his team some instructions on how to make sure that the motor pool was working really well because White Sands is so big when people went home, they could get lost at a wise sense. And then how are you going to find them? I mean, there are tracks, but there is no paved road at the time. How are you going to find them? So you can launch a helicopter the next day looking for a lost car somewhere with a family in it. But so he made rules that they had to call periodicly to report where they were when they went home 50 miles away. across the desert. So they could find them if there was something wrong with the car.

1:30:48He's driving home with his family. This is after the Socorro thing is done. You know, they are all interrogating. Lonnie Samura, the cop, was driving that thing. And he sees a light over the mountains in the southwest towards Mexico. But it's still in New Mexico, but it's in that direction. Light, it's not the star, it's really bright. And the light gets brighter and brighter. And his card dies. Now, his head of a multiple pool for the base. Everybody repulsed to him and they have all the, you know, all the armicards and trucks and everything else, they have tracks.

1:31:44So he looks at that thing. He tries to call his team the Radio Descent Work, Radio Should Work, Radio Descent Work. And the thing gets very bright and then it recedes, it goes away, the way it apparently came in. We don't know if it came in or if it just got bright. Okay, the car starts. He goes home and then the next day he goes to his shop. He gets his staff together. He says, you guys are going to take this car apart. I want to see every screw and every piece of it and every level and everything and the seats and so on. I want to see all of that on the floor. And you're going to test it and you're going to tell me what's changed now if anything, how that car stopped in the middle of the desert.

1:32:44And they couldn't find anything. And that report was an official report, okay? that was never published, and it nails the whole thing. You know, that this was not a balloon, this was not an hallucination. The patrolman wasn't drunk, like they accused him of, or making up a story, and so on. The Lannys Amar, when Dr. Heineck interrogated him, he said he wanted to talk to a priest and confessed to a priest before he would talk to Dr. Heineck. That's who kind of man he was. And they essentially destroyed this guy because they thought it was, you know, bad reputation for the town of Socorro. The terrorists wouldn't come there because they'd be afraid of strange things flying.

1:33:38And they are forced to say, well, it's a one -witness case. You know, there's this patrolman who saw this. There were 12 witnesses. There was a guy who was driving on the main road, the same road where the patrolmen had been driving, who the thing passed right over his car. He thought he was going to be driven off the road by this big oval thing that just went right over the roof of a car into the desert. Well, he called the police and reported it. There's a written report. He signed that report. We know his name. There were without him having any knowledge of what happened. That's right. I mean, he saw this some independently.

1:34:27You know, one of your gadgets tried to drive me over the road. There were several people on the road on the other side of this little desert thing that when it rains, the water rains all over the place. Washes everything out, just sand and rocks. But on the other side, there is a main road. Several people on the road saw the thing take off and reported it because it was just so strange. So the Air Force put that aside, they neglected to, you know, this was, and they just kept saying it was a one -witness case. It wasn't. Most of those cases where they say it was one witness and there, you have to look at there.

1:35:14You have to look for the other guys. And again, you know, I brought you something. Can I tell you what? Sure. So this is something that the case was so interesting that Dr. Nolan and I and a couple of friends wrote it up and published it in the prime astronomer's review in the world. So after it took a couple of years for them to agree to look at it and so on to look at the analysis, this happened in the suburb of Omaha, Nebraska, but on the Iowa side, there with town, with a park. This is about a week before Christmas in 1977. People are there having a good time in the park in the evening. It's getting dark.

1:36:22I want to make sure I'm Yeah.

1:36:30They see something in the sky that looks like one of those boxes there. You know, it looks like a round box with lights around it and the lights are going around, sort of, And it's pretty high and it's flying over the town. And then a mass of steel, liquid steel, falls in the park. It falls on the levee in the park. There is about half a ton of it. Liquid glowing. Nothing. No business being there. So you have this mass of metal. Obviously they call the... The glowing, you say it's molten? Yes, it's water. It's water is freezing. We know the temperature and everything else. It's freezing. The grass is on fire around it.

1:37:36They call the firemen, the firemen call the police. The police get there and the firemen get there. they stop the fire, the fire is, you know, would have died by itself. There's no no problem there. They take pictures of the thing glowing. I have the pictures in Fraud and you know, Polaroid pictures of the thing glowing in the grass, burning. I mean, liquid. And it's going to stay liquid for a couple of hours and it cools down gradually. And then people take pieces of it as souvenirs. So I have the pieces of it, and there they are. Now, there was analysis done by two labs. Obviously, the question is, where did that come from?

1:38:33I mean, you know, and there is chromium, titanium, and iron, which you can find in ordinary steel, but this isn't really, the composition isn't exactly what you'd expect industrial steel to be. So one of the chemical analysis is done at the lab, you know, for a industrial steel. The investigators call the company, the company says, yes, we make steel. So we have furnaces, but we empty the furnaces. This is over a weekend. The factory is closed. There would be nobody there. You know, and so they know liquid, no liquid steel in our factory. It's on that date. So they have a ton of it. They have, yeah.

1:39:33This is a half a ton that they found sitting there. So then they call the strategic air command And because B -52's fly over that town, B -52 is a big thing. And the people saw something in the sky. So maybe it was the Air Force politely laughs at them and says, we carry out our bombs. But we don't carry furnaces with molten steel. So gold looks at something somewhere else. And they say, good luck. By the way, this is a way you could test it. this is a way. I mean, the Air Force, we think, people think number one, there is nothing in the blue book files worth looking at. That's not true. I spent four years, you know, Dr.

1:40:23Heineck and copies of all the files. The files were not classified. There were a few random cases that were classified for other reasons, not because of the UFO, because of where it was or whatever, that I didn't have access to. I was just a graduate student or a PhD. I went through, we convinced Dr. Heinrich and I convinced the Air Force to do a computer file of everything they had about UFROS because before then it was just paper files all over the place. And if they were challenged by Carl Sagan or somebody like that at the time, they wouldn't be able to provide good statistics. So they agreed for me to get the files and redo punch them into punch cards, take it to a computer, redo the statistics, looking at their explanation and then my explanation for the cases.

1:41:28I did the whole thing, thousands and thousands of cases. They were right that majority were explainable. What we were looking for were the ones that were not explainable, this one cannot be explained. And enough of those are hundreds of those that scientists could have looked at. I went through the Air Force base with my French passport. At the time, I wasn't a citizen. You had to wait five years before you could apply for American citizenship. So I was working, I had a small contract that was completely, you know, unclassified to re -calibrate the statistics of the Blue Book Fights. So I access to essentially all the Blue Book Fights.

1:42:22But I went into the base with a clearance for three days with Dr. Heineck to go to the

1:42:32the division that was looking at the UFOs and Spendos three days with Major Quintanila and his staff going for the files. And they had lots of remains of things and stones and strange metals and so on, which at the end of the project all that was thrown away. So this is, well, everything is going on Well now, this is for you, but we're special collection of... All right, we're... This stuff, yeah. Now this is essentially steel. There we go. So that's the area where the mass of steel is glowing.

1:43:19And so this steel you can make on Earth, this is a composite of a bunch of different materials. Yes. It's not exactly the steel that you would use in construction, but it is essentially steel. And so I gave my samples to Stanford so that we could redo the analysis, and not the chemical analysis, but the isotope analysis. So, Dr. Nolan and I took it to the lab. Dr. Nolan had two series of instruments that could do the analysis. We did both and we confirmed essentially this. So there was no special change in the isotope ratios. If there was, that would indicate that somebody had manipulated the isotopes, which is not the hoax.

1:44:20Then you know for sure it's not a hoax because that's high caliber scientific laboratory work and you need special instrument experts to interpret it. Right, but that wasn't the case. So the dizzetopes hadn't been manipulated. Have they found, because I've heard this about Gary Nolan in particular, that they do have samples of things that they can't explain. So I gave him essentially all my samples, all the ones that I could relate to reliable cases because I don't want to give him junk. Right. There's a lot of junk floating around that people think is strange. So yes, we're going through all those, you know, and the idea is to, you know, publish it as we go, to publish everything as we go.

1:45:22Now some that give the indication of being, but as always in science we have to be careful. Our colleagues will say, very good, congratulations. You did that with one instrument. Now you should redo it with a different lab, with a different machine and see what they Because Dr. Nolan has some of those machines or machines that he's invented at Stanford. But they are tied to biology. I mean, this is not a biology. This is steel. And this is iron or copper or whatever. So we have to redo it with a different town. So in this case, we have redone it with a different line of machines. There is a French machine that costs something like six million dollars that would fill up to a half of this room that's extremely good for testing for isotopes, but only on four different elements.

1:46:34With the other machine, the biological machine, we get the whole spectrum. So, except for some of the extreme elements, like radioactive elements and so on. So, what samples have they found that have been the most compelling? We're still working on that, you know. But this paper is important, even though we didn't find something out of range. But that's in a way that's validation of what you have to do when somebody presents you with that kind of sample. Those are the steps. This is where the science is today. This is where the technology can tell you. So this is sort of a stake in the ground, even though we didn't find ET, okay?

1:47:29But we didn't find ET science. He's found physical evidence of something. But we've got the technology now. We know how to do it. One problem we had was that neither one of us is an expert in materials. We are not experts in steel. So the people who this was reviewed by people who were materials experts. And they came back with a whole page of questions. You widened your look at this, widened your measure. So Dr. Nolan, the team had to redo about a year of work before they would accept the paper. So that's what you have to go through before scientists would look at it. But this one is in the literature, in the scientifically literature, it's not in some UFO magazine in Mexico.

1:48:28And now we have the methodology, we can apply it to the others. There are some that we've done with one machine where there are indications. Now, at Stanford, Stanford is funny because you've had three generations of people at Stanford looking at this. a bit, you know, before Dr. Nolan, I was there and I was gathering data and I was using the computer to do statistics and so on. And I worked for Professor Sturak, who unfortunately died a few months ago at over 100, but he was still working in astrophysics. And, you know, I was on this astrophysics staff for a couple of years looking at galaxies, he's looking at the structure of his son and looking at certain types of strange stars that had special emissions and so on.

1:49:30So I was his computer guy and we also looked at UFO materials, especially a case from Brazil, which he published, and he got financial support to do the isotope analysis. And some of it was arguably different. So we want to redo it. You know, when he donated all his materials to me, you know, when he retired. So I have all that and I passed it to Dr. Nolan. So Stanford now has a acquiring reputation as being a UFO analysis place. Yeah, for sure. But it went from essentially solar physics and very high energy physics that I was working on with Dr. Sturock. To me, with the Computing Center now with Dr.

1:50:35Nolan in the medical school. So we've had, you know, they are, you know. Well, I'm glad. You're in trouble. We're willing to do that. I had heard that there was some alloy that was very difficult to comprehend that someone would be able to construct. That it would cost billions of dollars to make this particular type of alloy that they had discovered something along those lines. Well, there are. I've seen those books. I've heard those things on the internet. The question is, scientists will want to look at this. They want to know, how did you do it? How did you prepare the sample? We were given access to a sample that in fact is very strange.

1:51:29And it has different colors on it. It fits in the palm of your hand. And so it's a significant size. Remember Dr. Nolan is looking at individual human cells, you know, with his device, okay? So anything more than 10 grams, you know, we don't need, I mean, we can work with very little material. Although of course we want to do different things with different parts of it. But this thing had some very interesting incrustation of a red deposit. And all the people who had looked at it, including some official labs and some signed disclaimers saying they would not scrape off the interesting deposits that were on it.

1:52:24Well, all of them did. I mean, after signing the thing. By the time it came to me, most of the interesting red stuff had been scraped off. So I don't know what they did. So and I don't know what machine they used. And they didn't publish the paper. It took us four years to publish this paper. The paper came from Stanford with PhDs, four PhDs writing it. So, the barrel is pretty high. If you're going to actually publish this in an international review. Yeah, and with an interesting title too. So, we'll do others, you know, that's a plan. If people want to find this, it says improve instrumental techniques, including isotope analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics.

1:53:21Yeah, he doesn't talk about you, I suppose. That's a very tricky way. Well, relevance to aerospace forensics. People read between the lines. Yeah, that's a hot one. What do you mean, aerospace? Who's aerospace stuff? So this is the question if these encounters happened, if this egg -shaped craft was real, and if these small people like things that breathe air did communicate with people, Where are they from? Is this something that has always been here? Is this something that visits here? Is it something that is here? So in the the Bass project of Mr. Bigelow that was funded by the Defense Intelligence Agency, we had a template of things that they, the Pentagon wanted to make.

1:54:19to have. And it said, you know, trajectory, composition, luminosity, radiation, and so on. Well, yeah, those are the things that you'd need if you were looking at a Russian aircraft, you know, or you were looking at, you know, the limits, thing, whatever it was. But, you know, it's that really relevant. I mean, in science, you don't start from the conclusions. You're going to look at this. I mean, this is not something you've seen before, and you go on from there. You know, in the Nimitz case, we've all seen those photographs. And they are, I've stopped counting how many papers were from the New York Times on down with the picture of the photograph of the F -18 was taking the pilot took from the thing.

1:55:22Well, nobody mentions that this isn't a photograph. People think it's a photograph. So in the file, there is a memo from the folks at Raytheon. The right thing on makes the device. She's a big thing that you hang under the wing of an F -18. That's going to take these images. It's an image. It's not a photograph. It's looking into the infrared. It's not looking at the details. You know, there is a number painted on the thing. It's looking at the heat. So, when this was published by the New York Times, there was a very interesting memo, with a little touch of humor, from Raytheon to the Navy, saying, you know those things you've published, and you know, it was taken with one of the devices that we sold you to put under the wing of your aircraft.

1:56:29It's not a camera, it's not a photographic camera. You gave us specifications for what you wanted us to build, and that's what we gave you. You wanted something that could measure the temperature of the exhaust, of an enemy aircraft that you're going to shoot down. You know, the F -18 goes behind that Russian thing, a meagre or whatever, and the camera is painting the exhaust from the Russian guy, so that you can distinguish between, you know, American Airlines 723 and a meagre, okay, that's going to help you discriminate What kind of enemy you've got? You know, is it friend or foe? If it's friend, you peel off, and that's right.

1:57:22If it's an enemy, you're going to engage a guy. Okay? That's what we gave you. You didn't tell us you wanted a device to track flying saucers, because we don't know what flying saucers are. If you do, you know, we'll build one. And that memory is just so funny. You know, it's an official, you know, I make it a little bit funny year that it was, but it's an official memory and it's very straightforward. Jamie, see if you could find a good photograph, excuse me, an image of the infrared image that was taken by those F -18s. You have an image of a heat source? Yes, of that tick -tack. And then they also got the video representation, the video of the thing taking off at some extreme rate of speed.

1:58:20That's it right there. So that's the image, right? Yeah, well, the radar said that the... Yeah, that's the one. The radar said that it took off and popped up somewhere else. And so we accept that at face value because it's in the New York Times. And that's maybe true. In my work in venture capital, I've looked at all kinds of technology that's around. So I go to technology meetings. Those are open. They are not secret or anything. And people talk about their gadget or their device. They are looking for many, you know, to make in larger quality. So I found myself in a conversation with a guy from one of the aircraft companies in Southern California.

1:59:27And I asked him, you know, there is a device that has a funny name like Dispro or something like that. And it measures the eight requires radar signals. I think it's a DSPR for radar. And that gadget, I never heard of it, and it's actually not classified. Now, it was developed initially so that you could analyze radar data that was coming to you. If somebody was painting your aircraft on a radar, you could detect the characteristics of a radar pulse. Why would you want to do that? Well, you want to do that because it… I said, well, what does it look like? You know, I say classified. He said, no, it's not classified.

2:00:43You know, many airplanes, civilian airplanes can carry it. You put it in the nose of your pipe or cap or whatever. And you fly around Los Angeles, and it will acquire the characteristics of all the radars in the Los Angeles area, digitally. It's a digital thing. It's a computer essentially. That requires radar data. And then it feeds back radar characteristics of any aircraft you want somewhere else. So if you want your paper cup to look like a B52, 20 miles away, you turn on, I mean, I'm making it very simple. But you program the thing. and you can redirect the air defense, for example, to another place.

2:01:41So you can send a signal to another place that makes it look like there's a B -52 there? Yes. I'll make it look like you've disappeared in midair and reappeared somewhere else. So, digital radar feedback device that once you know the characteristics of the radars that are painting you, you can obviously suppose you want to travel to Moscow over the the Iron Curtain without being shot down by the Soviet Air Force, you'd want to redirect all the radars, so I mean you're on 20 radars. One of the things that they said about the Tic Tac was that when they encountered it, it was somehow another blocking their detection signals.

2:02:38Well, you know, I don't know this dirt problem. I don't know how far it's gotten in the last 30 years. The guy was talking to me about technology 30 years ago. That blew my mind. I didn't know you could do that. Right. I didn't know until just now. So you could just paint. So that's, I'm not sure where the technology is, and who is clear it for that. Pilots are clear for certain things, obviously, for all their equipment on board. They are not necessarily clear for. So you have to ask, in the case of an image, what currencies did these pilots we see on TV? what clearances did they have? No, they have the electronic countermeasure clearance that don't necessarily have it.

2:03:37I mean, some of them didn't have the camera. Some of those who are on TV today talking about these images, the image didn't come from them. It came from one of their bodies. Right, you know, it came afterwards. There's also the question of where the data is missing. I've always questioned where they take place because they take place in the same areas where the United States always runs military training exercises. They take place off of San Diego, off of the East Coast, all these areas where we know that they run exercises all the time, restricted airspace. If you were going to test equipment, I think this was an international waters.

2:04:19Yes, yeah, it was but it was still off the coast of San Diego Yeah, where they do these things which is why the fight or pie I mean the Russians could fly there right not that area But isn't the area of the east coast for some of those things restricted. I don't know. Okay They want no nylon Electric long Long has restricted says China's electronic war gadget turns small drones into flying stadium on radar So this is a article from a January of this year and then I'll show you something else I found Wow, so they can make it look like a flying saucer. An iPad can make it look like as big as a sports stadium.

2:04:55Whoa, look at this. The effects similar to a giant flying saucer suddenly materializing in mid -air would be reminiscent of a scene from a science fiction film, but is achievable according to peer reviewed paper published on January 8th. Whoa. Also, it's been the month before that. Here's their new stealth fighter that's painted with the stuff he just said that. I'm just gathers the freak with you. I love, you know, this isn't my field. I, uh, this is just something I stumbled across typing in the words to the second time. Yeah, just pretty cool. So they're testing this too. What I was getting at was, if you're the United States government, if you're the military, and you, um, have this kind of equipment and you wanna test it, what better way than to test it on people that don't know your testing it on them, send your fighter jets out there, have them encounter these things, run your whatever experiment you're doing with making something appear and reappear and take off and give them these signals, give them these disruptive, deceptive signals, and see whether or not they...

2:06:01The problem is they had visual confirmation of these things. That's the real problem. The problem is they actually saw these things. Like the TickTack was they visually saw it for people, right? I have a colleague in Silicon Valley who's been a distinguished Army career and he told me that there were in fact tests of especially nuclear facilities, not necessarily the military, about mostly the military facilities, to test the ability to penetrate the perimeter. So those flights are not cleared with the people who manage the plant. So it's either a nuclear plant that makes fuel for bombs, or it's a base where nuclear weapons are stored.

2:07:03and there are guys around the perimeter with machine guns and they are going to, you know, sound and alert if they see something coming over the fence. Well, suppose you can, over the fence, looking like a flying saucer, are they going to start shooting or not? Okay. So they, you know, he told me that he had actually flown some of those missions. And I know another member of a vast team who confirmed that told me he had been on some of those missions. They make their plane look like they put lights around it and so that so that it can look like flying saucer essentially or look like what would be a UFO to the guard.

2:07:57So that the guard is they want to see if they can penetrate if you can disguise yourself to the extent that psychologically you can inhibit the reaction of the guards and you can fly over the fence. Because if you can fly over the fence you're in. You know you can do a lot of damage. Wow. So pretend you're a UFO. So those are, but I don't think they do, they do hundreds of those. I think they probably do it, you know, very carefully at a couple of places. No. But it's interesting that they have that ability. That's fascinating. That throws a lot of this stuff into question, like what are we actually seeing?

2:08:41Yes. But it doesn't explain all these things. And that's the problem that I always have is that the abundance of encounters and how similar a lot of them are and then what it must feel like, I've never had an experience, but what it must feel like to have that experience, what that you probably would be very, I wouldn't be reluctant because I'm a known person to talk about silly things, but if you're not, if you're like a serious person, you have some sort of an encounter, I would imagine there's a lot of pressure on you to not tell people If you're a lawyer or a doctor or you're any sort of like respectable person that's a serious individual and whatever you're doing for a career, you don't want people to associate you with nonsense or think that maybe Mike is losing his mind.

2:09:34You can't just like people relying on your ability to... So maybe you tell your friends, maybe you tell your mother, maybe you tell your wife, but you probably don't tell the press. If you're a scientist, I would imagine you would have to have like significant evidence for you to stick your neck out, or your person like yourself that's been very brave for all these years, because you were talking about this stuff in the 1960s, which is pretty crazy. Well, you know, I had seen Centreluf, like Sonser, when I was 15.

2:10:11So... I grew up in a town that's about 45 minutes out of Paris on the road to Normandy. And my father was a judge in that town for a while. And a beautiful afternoon in the summer. I don't know the exact date. It would have been late June of July, in 1955, 1955. So I was about 15, 16. I was still in school, and then the following year, I was going to go to the university. And my mother called me. I was working with my father who was relaxing doing some furniture. And I was helping him. And I heard my mother call from the yard and went down and saw an object that was absolutely a saucer. It looked like it was over the steeple of the cathedral there.

2:11:25And we were about half a kilometer away from it. And it was just suspended. It was silver and there was a clear dome on top of it. And we both saw that. It was very clear. And then the next day I asked a friend of mine from school who was, you know, we were the two good students in physics and so on. And I told him I had seen that. And he said he had looked at it with binoculars. He had seen it, too. And he had looked at it with binoculars. And I got him to draw it. And he drew exactly what I had seen. Essentially a lens -shaped thing with a dome on the clear dome on top. How long did you see it for?

2:12:18I saw it for less than a minute. I think I went inside. I don't remember what I did.

2:12:29I, logically, I probably went inside to get my father so that he could see it. And then when he came out, I was gone. Well, he didn't even come out. He said it was probably one of the new planes that were flying around. Because this was a time when the meteors years, and the early jets were being tried, and they were training pilots with them and so on, and both for civil aviation and for the Air Force in France. So we said, well, let's wait, maybe this will be disclosed at some point. So I didn't say anything about it. Also, the son of a judge, a family of a judge is not supposed to see strange things in in the air over the town.

2:13:22So there was sensitive. What year was this? You were 15? How old do you know? It was 1955. 1950. So back then. It was 15, 16. Okay, so we could also apply that like, if it was a jet, it would probably be very loud. Well, I don't know if it would just stand there. Right. It wouldn't be able to sit there. And it was this thing quiet. After that, I understood that it was, after that I worked at Paris Observatory, after my degree in astronomy, tracking satellites, we tracked the very early satellites. And we were government, you know, office, so people were writing to us with what they had seen. And most of it we could explain.

2:14:14For one thing, they were seeing echo, and they were seeing some of the Russian riots.

2:14:23So we would write back, I mean, we had to write back, you know, to French citizen. I had a card with a French flag on it, and we were serving the population. So we would explain those things pretty much the way they do now. You've seen the moon rising through the fog or you've seen satellite, you know, so much alpha 23. But then there were cases where just like that where they saw something we could not explain. But then we would tell them that we wouldn't publish it, we wouldn't send it anywhere. For one thing, it wasn't our job. Our job was tracking satellites. Right, but that one experience that you had when you were 15 is what ignited your interest in this for so many years.

2:15:18Yeah. Well, if you hadn't been doing, I mean, the thing that's very important about people like yourself is that you're so careful in how you document these things and the conclusions that you draw. Because I think this field of UFO study is filled with so many people that claim to have answers, claim to know things, and this is going to happen, and this is coming, and this is this is this is disclosure's eminent and this and that's not it never comes true. It's always just you're just left waiting for some new evidence that supposedly they have. And this is the more frustrating aspects of like when talking to Christopher Mellon, he's telling me there's high resolution photographs and video and how about showing me?

2:16:04Show me some stuff. Show me something because as a person that I wasn't when I was 15 I didn't see anything. So I don't have that experience that you have. I just have this fascination with it but also tempered by a little bit of cynicism because there's so much Malarkey that's attached to this subject. Well, and some of it is legitimate. And I think you falleges in general, they want disclosure, disclosure, disclosure, but we don't know. I know. I'm very respectful of, you know, when I had the clearances, I was just very respectful of those clearances because there are people who know what's on the other side of that, you know.

2:16:58There was one case in the Air Force files that was classified, it was marked in the index with a star, and I'm punching the car and I put the nastier is there. And I had to ask Dr. Heineck, you know, what happened? Can you tell me what happened there? And he said, yeah, there was enough time that I can tell you. This came from a woman in Alaska called the Air Force because she saw what she thought was a flying saucer. certainly something that should not have been there. It was dark on the ground, but the sky was still light. And there was definitely a light that looked like it was under power that was flying west.

2:17:59Now west of Alaska, there's a Coral Peninsula and there's a Soviet Union. So she thought it was a UFO. So it was reported as a UFO, but it was classified, and it was called an identified. Well, you know, that was an inside joke. It was a U2. But this was at sunset, that, and the U2 was illuminated by the sun. I mean, U2 is painted in such a way that it shouldn't be visible from, but there are some conditions where you're going to see it. And so it was classified, and if you had the clearance, you would read that it was an identified, it would be listed in the statistics. as an identity fighter.

2:19:03But you actually, exactly what it was from the beginning. Interesting. So some things are listed as unidentified because it's so classified. Sure. Yeah. That makes sense. I have no problem with that. Right. But, you know, tell me if you ask me to write a computer program about it, tell me if it's, it's worth my time or not. I mean, what was your take on the Ryan grave stuff. Like Ryan Graves and the fighter pilots have started seeing these squares within a sphere. To me, that's still a question. And the people I talk to are still wondering, You know, what is that?

2:19:50There are strange physical systems that are floating around to gather faint signals, and they have very strange shapes. So it could be, those are balloons within balloons with little things attached to them. Going back to the days of, now 1947, looking for atomic explosions, Russian, you know, that's That's the way the Russian tests, atomic tests were detected first, was with balloons that had large antennas, you know, that were. The thing about the Ryan Grave stuff, those the physical characteristics, like in the way it moves, that these things were able to stay stationary and 100 plus not wins.

2:20:52I don't know. I don't know. You don't know. I have not researched it and I wouldn't be the guy to research it. If we are being visited, how many different civilizations do you think are visiting us? Because if there's all these different characteristics that these beings have, if some of them look like tall, albino, almost like human beings with large eyes, some of them look like the Yes, and that's an embarrassment of riches. Right.

2:21:34Of course, that opens a question, you know, is it a simulation? And Rizwin Wurt has published a couple of books about that. He's a friend of ours and Dr. Nolan, and we've had many conversations about that. You know, we could be living in those simulations of where the people running the simulation might send whatever they want. I mean, it would be like a video game. So all of a sudden you've got a new. But that's not completely, you can only go so far. In fact, first reaction is, well, you know, But look at the detail, we can't reproduce a detail on that scale. That's true, but wait 10 years and we'll be able to do it.

2:22:27I mean, with quantum computing and all that. So that's not a good argument. It's an OK argument now, but it doesn't stand a test. The other argument is who would be doing it and why? I mean, that's true that there are some strange things. I mean, the fact that the moon is exactly the size to hide the sun. Yeah. It's exactly perfectly. No. 30 minutes of arc, like the sun. So it gives us total leclipses and it gives us the measuring tool. And the Greeks knew roughly how far the sun was with respect to the moon. and they knew the ratio of the distances. They didn't get the exact distance. But they already knew that because they had done the math, the geometry.

2:23:26So that's pretty strange. I mean, the supertext aren't very common. But they're less stable on Earth that seem to be accidental that are just right for us to exist. Yeah. So, I'm not completely happy with that expedition. No, I'm not happy with it, but it's very compelling. What's fascinating to me is that it is inevitable that if technology advances the way it is currently within maybe even our lifetime or within another lifetime, another hundred we will most certainly have an artificial reality that's you cannot discern indesernable between that and the reality with currently experience. So if that's inevitable, you would kind of assume that perhaps it's already taken place and if it had already taken place it would probably be very similar to what we're experiencing whereas enough of it seems fake and enough of it It seems scripted enough, it seems very coincidental how things line up that it almost does seem like a simulation sometimes.

2:24:44Well, but there are also things that are strange, but that we could research, that we are doing a very bad job of researching. There was, I got a phone call a couple of years ago from a woman who had been a student at a school, a high -level preparatory school on the East Coast. And I had published a book in the 80s, early 80s, about UFOs, and she was head of a lecture bureau for the kids. And she thought it would be fun to bring me there to talk about flying sources. They could say it would excite the students. So I went there and I gave a lecture at the level of, you know, those were very bright students.

2:25:44It was sort of an elite girl school. And then, you know, she drove me back to the airport and I went home. Never heard from her again. What, what, 35 years pass and she calls me. And she says, you may not remember me, but you know, I was the one who brought you to give a lecture at the school. Do you ever come to Washington? And I said, I do remember you, and I go to Washington a couple of times a year. And she says, well, I'd like to tell you about an experience I had. And next time you come to Washington, read me up, and when you're done with your meetings, you know, I'll pick you up and I'll drive you to Dallas, their pot.

2:26:41And so I do that, I call her, she picks me up in a very nice Mercedes, and she says, I've never forgotten your lecture. I saw something here on the way to the airport where we're passing now that I'd like to describe to you because it reminded me of your lecture and I had never heard that anywhere else. You know, there are trees along the freeway on both sides, beautiful. The freeway was dark and the sky was still blue. She said, I saw an elongated object which was like to me twice, 747. with what people would probably think of as port halls or windows. They were just lights along the thing. The thing was elongated.

2:27:44And it was moving slowly, minding its own business. It must be on 10 radars, including the airport. And it was moving over. and then the sky was perfectly clear, no clouds, no fog. It blended with the sky. I could just see the outline still, it didn't speed up. I could see the lights and I could see the lights fading and then there was nothing there. And I remember in your lecture in the 80s, You talked about things that could be going into another dimension, okay? But I had, I thought that was interesting, and you know, the kids thought it was an interesting idea. And yeah, in science, you know, people, you talk about different dimensions and physics and so on.

2:28:45But I had never seen it mentioned anywhere else, and there it was. You know, this thing faded from our universe and I have no idea what, but it didn't speed up. So, they have great ideas. I think they are very much. And I published that and said, no way. I'm the CEO of an international commercial company. We work in several countries and I can't have my name associated with it. Now, I've had probably a dozen cases like that with people from Silicon Valley, people, you know, they report on Wall Street about how their company is doing. They don't want a reporter saying, are you the same guy who sees flying saucers, you know, you're the CEO of this Satchin Satch, microchip company in San Jose, you know?

2:29:43So, you know, they don't report it, but they want me or some of my colleagues to know about it, because they know it could contribute to the research we're doing. And, you know, Dr. Nolan has had that experience as well, you know. But it's not going to the Air Force, it's not going to the newspapers, it's not going to the New York Times. Now, if those things can, you know, just jump out of our universe and go somewhere else, that rewrites the whole thing, you know, we're not talking about propulsion, the way we think about propulsion. We're not talking about, you know, environmental, environment.

2:30:33and we're not talking the passage of time, you know, in the same way that, you know, I would experience with my watch and so on. We're talking about something that has the rules are different, and we need to go up and start thinking along those rules, or at least with possibility of those rules. It doesn't prove that there is another universe five minutes ahead of us, but there could be and then all the papers that they published thing there couldn't be flying saucers because there isn't life you know closer than you know 2000 light years from us and they would take at the speed of light it would take 2000 years to come here.

2:31:20Well there could be another universe five minutes ahead of us it would take them five minutes to get here okay. So that would explain then why we have visitations throughout history. And they look the same throughout history because, you know, our technology, I mean, this technology of this microphone didn't exist 20 years ago. You know, it's a new microphone. And there were no microphones, you know, 200 years ago, there were no microphones at all. So how come those things look the same? how can we compare them to something somebody saw in the 18th century? That shouldn't happen. And those technologies stuck.

2:32:09That is a fascinating aspect of it. You would expect that if you thought about how fast our technology evolves, technology from 1947 from some other planet would be exponentially more advanced than what we experienced in 47. We just based on how our technology evolves. You'd have to think, I mean, we think about an aircraft in ways completely different. I mean, there are things that, yes, it came from the right brothers and so on and they were speculation before on how you could fly. But what an aircraft does today is radically different, the whole physics is different. And we're only talking about a hundred and some years ago, which is pretty crazy.

2:32:57You go from this thing that Wilbur and Orwell were right, you know, kind of like get it to take some air for a little bit to the Chinese jet, which is disguising itself from radar and travels at insane speeds, and then the possibility of other propulsion systems that have been kept under wraps. All to the higher that stays. Yes. And then lands like that. No, just the technology that we know that we're aware of over the last 200 years is pretty extraordinary. And if you imagine something from somewhere that's had thousands of years to evolve past us. There are a couple of things I wanted to bring up that are in this in the book.

2:33:42Well, one is in the book, the other one isn't. What's in the book is I've tried to continue the parapsychology experiments that were done at SRI and now at lots of other places. And I got advice from people you said if you put yourself in some types of conditions, you could try to manifest another form of intelligence, another form of essentially an apparition. It's not necessarily related to UFOs, but if you can do that, that would teach you what you could do also with some of the encounters that people describe, that the witnesses tell me. So if I'm a good scientist, I should put myself in their place first and experience it myself.

2:34:41So I did a couple of mental experiments like that in my home. I was alone at a time in my home. And nothing happened. And then nothing like what I expected happened. And then I was asleep one night and all of a sudden I propelled outside of my body into another room and there is an entity there, a massive sort of rectangular mass, you know, And clearly, you know, something that knows where it is and is thinking. I'm terrified, not terrified so much of the entity, it's like a sort of black rectangle. But I'm terrified of being outside my body. I know people do experiments with that and there are people who can do it almost that well.

2:35:53I've never tried to do that, I think, because I've heard, you know, cautions that it's very dangerous because what if you don't find your way back? So I'm terrified. I get, I find myself back in my body. I get, you know, I sit up completely terrified, crying, screaming, which is not usual, because it was just, you know, it really was horrible. Then I rationalize it, you know, and that. The experience wasn't supposed to happen outside of my body, okay. When people describe entities like Wheatley Strieber, describes it and so on, there is a very strong psychic, you know, impact.

2:36:51But to me that was very shocking. It hasn't happened before and hasn't happened since. I'm not trying to make it happen, but I wanted to flag it then to get advice mostly from other people. Did you feel compelled to try it again? I would try it again. But you have not yet. No, no, I could understand. It was that terrifying. If you were to get counsel from my peers or. That's similar to the monolith in 2001, right? Yeah. Well, you know, there is a scientist I know well in Silicon Valley who also started a number of companies that are publicly traded now who invented the integrated circuit. His name is Federico Fagin.

2:37:53He is a physicist from Italy, with a PhD from Italy. He came to Silicon in the very early days of the transistor, worked with the initial teams in those places. And then there was a problem of how can you pack those things together in smaller and smaller places. And he's recognized as the father or one of the two or three people who invented the integrated circuit. So for a long time he was celebrated in that capacity. What he didn't say is that he had seen the design outside of his body one night and that he had had multiple experiences outside of his body. Now, this is someone, you know, one of the fathers of Silicon Valley.

2:38:56I mean, I recognize him as one of my mentors, you know, in the Inventory Capital, in high technology investment. And, but now he's started to, I mean, he's made enough money that he doesn't care anymore and he's sort of semi -retiring. It doesn't like what's going on in, you know, right now, and it's probably going to go back to Europe. But there are a number of people like that whose names are in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times who've achieved something, but you find out that they also had, and they they experimented with it. In his case, he experimented systematically with the ability to go out of his body and acquire this information from some other source.

2:39:58Well, or a vision. There isn't much, there are a couple of books that mention steps you can take, but it seems to be pretty much up to the individual. In my case, I certainly wasn't trying to do that. I was precipitated instantly to the place where this being was. There were also a couple of things that I never wrote about, not that I wanted to hide them or was afraid of them, But I wanted to understand the context of it before I did. And I talk about it in this book.

2:40:51In the late 70s, my wife, my first wife, Jeanine, was a psychologist. And we bought a place in the country in northern California, a place in the Redwood Forest, because I wanted to re -experience the pleasure of doing astronomy as an amateur, you know, small telescope, it's one. But I don't care. I want to look at the moon. I want to look at planets. I want to look at Magellanian clouds, if I can, you know, whatever.

2:41:32And so we built this, we had, there was a house there, but I built an observatory in the middle of the forest. Well, Claude Sous -Snaver, this was a redwood forest, you know, uncluttered and, you know, unspoiled. pretty much inaccessible. If you didn't own the land, you couldn't go cut the trees. So there were some old redwoods there, and the closest neighbor was about three quarter miles away, three quarter of a mile away. And I felt this is going to be like a discontinuity in the forest, and maybe it will attract whatever is out there. And maybe we'll see you We never did. We owned the place for 18 years.

2:42:28We'd go there with our kids and it was wonderful.

2:42:34But when they are not every weekend, but pretty much as much as we could. And then our kids grow up and move away. We move back to the city. We sold the place. The last night, of course, we had cleaned the place. We were selling it to friends of ours, our neighbors, and our winery. They wanted to expand the land. We had some flat land they wanted to use for the wine, and they wanted the house. And so the last night, everything has been moved out. My wife is still there because we had a car that was going to be taken back to the city and she had her car. And she was ready to go middle of the night, there's a light that's filling the house.

2:43:31By then there are no curtains, I think, filling the house. blue, you know, sort of UV or white, blue, ultraviolet light. There. She goes outside and the light is making everything clear, the forest, everything else. And it's moving. It doesn't have a specific shape. You know, it's like a mass of light with light all around it. It's going down the driveway, which is a dirt road to the main road, to the small road. And it's just moving along politely in front of the ranch and down to the street. It has no business being there. You know, no sound, it's not a car, it's not a car on fire. It's not the light.

2:44:32Again, everything is all the details on there. You can see the grass, you can see the leaves on the trees. And why that? Maybe you called for it and it took a long time to get there. Well, yeah, all they just wanted to say goodbye. Yeah, maybe they were there the whole time and they just didn't want to show themselves. So let's put on a show for Jacques. There was one time we used to sleep in the observatory, there was a small bedroom there with old books that I had collected and she saw, she woke up and she saw a light that was light. what people describe, small light, she didn't see where it came from or where it went.

2:45:20Then it was moving along the walls of two of them and then it vanished. She woke me up but I had not seen it. It was gone by the time I woke. I talked to a man when I went to visit Skinwalker Ranch. There's a few people wanted to talk to us but then once we brought the cameras out, only one guy wanted to talk to us. And he was very rational, very normal guy who lived in a modest home and he told the story about this ball of light that entered through his home. And it seemed to be somehow another aware that he was there. He felt like it was, if not a living thing, controlled by something that was alive.

2:46:06And then it went through the walls and disappeared again. said it was in his home for a few minutes, it's moving around. Well, as you know, Mr. Bigelow has done experiments of his own with lights and with things like that, putting interesting objects in certain places that are enclosed and seeing if something is going to look around or move them and so on. So, very interesting. Well, it's such a fascinating subject. And like I said, I really appreciate all your years of research. And the way you're so measured and so objective in your analysis, it really helps people like myself get at least some sort of an understanding of what's going on.

2:46:59Well, what's important is to have guidelines for research. Yes. I look to some of the people you have here, you know, than some other exploring, you know, try to learn from them and sort of refine my own criteria. Yeah. Well, thank you very much. In your book, again, the one that's available now, this is Forbidden Science 6. This is the sixth of these books. And scattered castles is a, it's not classified, but it comes from the classified world. It's a repository of classified projects. So if you're cleared at a certain level, you want to know what else is there that you would have access to where certain things are being sent to you and you're authorized to, you could look up the names of those projects.

2:48:04It wouldn't tell you what the project does unless you're cleared for it, but it would tell you that there is a project. And so those names of secret projects are picked by a computer, they are random. And I thought this was funny, you know, scattered castles, it's sort of like, you know, all these vibes about strange UFOs and strange creatures. Well, I can't read to read it. Thank you so much. Thank you for everything. It was great having dinner with you and how I put off and I put it else last night as well. So I really appreciate you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. Bye, buddy.

2:48:56My heart does everything.