#2295 - Scott Payne

25:28Yeah, no, right. I love connecting with people. I don't care whether you're smart, stupid, big, skinny, fat, any ethnicity doesn't matter. And that's one thing I do miss about the job. I miss getting called out at two in the morning for the craziest of the crazies. And you show up to do an interview. And essentially, I'll befriend you and you either confess or we find out that you really weren't doing anything. I do remember one night, this wasn't undercover, but they call me, cause towards the end of my career, I was doing nothing but mainly domestic terrorism. And they call me, they go, we got one down here.

26:01He's a white supremacist. He's assaulted a cop this time. The other way I get down there. It's like three, four in the morning now. I'll do my spill. I'm not screaming at the guy. I mean, you need something to drink here. Man, you look cold. Here's a coat. So tell me about what happened. I'm not here for this other stuff. I'm just, and I start talking. Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, okay, this guy's not a white supremacist. He's a sovereign citizen. Man, he's just anti -government. Pro Sheriff, elected, but anti -government. Sovereign citizens, I really can't stand to deal with him. It's just, it's like absurdity to the max.

26:33Explain sovereign citizen to people. They, you see it all over you to, they don't, like they get pulled over and they don't need a driver's license. I'm in commerce. I'm in transit. If you touch you, well, that's rape. They think they've got 100, and I'm gonna forget it, but it's like $175, $250 ,000 being held by the government for each person. It's crazy. They'll start putting leans on people, people put on trainings. So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, but I never got that training. Is this legit?

27:07You know, I guess I can't pull this guy over. Then you can start diving in and you start getting the training that these people are full of crap. And then you see the cops popping the wind and dragging them out of the car. You're still going. But this guy was a sovereign citizen. He had a brother. And we're talking and he's telling me this stuff and the constitution and the declaration and dependence. And I'm like, yeah, yeah. And I said, but how do you know? That's what the forefathers meant when they signed that. And he said, because I was there, son. Oh boy. And that's when I went. He's not just a sovereign citizen.

27:43He's a cool case. Crazy. Why did it take me this long to find that? He said I was there. Yeah, I was like this because I didn't miss a beat. I can, how do you know? Because I was there, son. And I went there. Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or five times. Oh, and I'm like, and you got this life this time? You got the one you're living right now this time. Well, you're talking to me and four of them one. You look like you've had a rough life. I mean, I would, you know, if I was going to buy into, you know, reincarnation, I'd want to come back as maybe like my mom's dog or something like that, you know, eat, stay, yeah, something get this great life, sleep, eat and play.

28:23But so back to the outlaws thing. I go in and I'm just shooting a shit. I'm just working the bar. I'm telling jokes. You get a crowd of people around you. And that's no, that's not trade crowd. I mean, that's just me, right? And by the way, for the listeners who may not know, little intervention. If you buy all your friends, all their drinks and their food all the time, they're probably not your friends. You know what I mean? Yeah. I got all kinds of friends. Those aren't your friends. Right. Stop paying. They won't come around anymore. But that's kind of what I was doing. And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws are leaving their clubhouse.

29:02And for the listeners that don't know in the Biker World, especially one percent of world, there's a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse and they refer to it as church. So they're leaving church. I get the server in this team telling me, hey, man, we're leaving church. I'm like, cool. I met the bar already, the Foxy lady, and Brockton, Massachusetts. And that's a rough town. Right. And marvelous Marvin Haggler. Yeah, you're a great job. And I was really brother. I get home a mile. Yeah. Yeah, I'm like, yeah. But they tell me they're coming. Now the intelligence that they'd provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey, man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their letters in the bar?

29:40And they said, no, they don't allow that. And I'm thinking to my mind, well, that makes my approach easier. Because I'm not tattooed guy watching naked women listening to heavy metal and drinking. Next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking, they had that part wrong. Because about 13, 15 outlaws come walking into the bar, take the whole back bar, they're all wearing their colors. So that, does that change my approach? Yeah, I think it does. Unless you want me to go up. And as I say, when I'm teaching this, I go up and I go, what do you mean second? And I go, hey, you boys right?

30:13For you. Nothing? No, all right, fine. I'll just, I'm gonna go back on the other side of the bar. Please don't beat my ass. So I just was being loud and boisterous. It's me, I swear to you. It doesn't always work for undercover. Some people don't like it, but it's my personality. Are you loud to get drunk? Boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink. But here's the thing. Let's say that outlaw's case. That was two years. So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a jack and cook up, right? I'm an anal, even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight. And I wanted to be good.

30:55I wanted to always get better and be more rounded. So I would watch. And even if I caught myself at five in the morning, six in the morning, slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, dead come at man. And then I'd listen and within five minutes, I'd be back because you gotta remember, all that could be played in front of a jury. If I'm on there slurring and saying a bunch of stupid stuff, I mean, how does that affect my articulation for what I was doing? But was my alcohol tolerance very high? You're a big dude. Probably put some way. I did. Kind of still there. I'll tell you what, what put me on a three month time out with CPI.

31:33Really? Yeah, because you go down there and you get the stems. I think it's explained it. We're talking about the cellular performance institute that my friends run down in Tijuana. Absolutely. Great, great facility. I would tell you my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, I almost died. I had a hip replacement and it got sepsis in I almost died. So 14 days after my total hip replacement, quickest surgery I've ever had. About 30 minutes, chopped the femur off, drill it, pop. They're walking you out. You're still very high on all your, they're like, if you can walk, you can go home.

32:07And I'm like, I can't walk. But apparently something happened. They got infected. So 14 days later, I had sepsis and they got it under control and they went back in and cleaned me all out. I had two hip surgeries in 14 days. But fast. So now I'm going to Tijuana. No one what I know about working the border. No one what I think. Even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, and I'm like, I'm like, man, now I'm going by myself. Best hospital stay I've ever had. Fun nominal. It's phenomenal. It's an amazing place. Fun nominal. And what I, but what got me stopped, cut back on my drink and is I got down there.

32:44You can't drink the week before, especially if you're getting the IV stem cells because they travel through your body and they grab stuff. So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver. So you're kind of wasting the shots. I knew I couldn't drink the week before. I got there and they go, yes, you can't drink for three more months. And I went three months. And they're like, I said, then nobody told me that. And I was like, and I immediately went, I need to cut back anyway. That's fine. But yeah, tolerance was high for them. You have to be drinking with these folks when you're hanging out with them.

33:16You don't have to. But this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school. If you're going to drink, we want you to drink in a controlled environment when you're tired because we want you to see how you feel. We also want to see how you behave when you're extremely tired and you're plastered. So you have to know that. In other words, you don't want to find out in the middle of the clubhouse that you can't handle your shit. Right. So yeah, you can drink and but you're being recorded. So be wary about wary about it. What about drug use? This one is this trade crafter, not.

34:03Maybe this is easy to say it. If I believe my life is in danger and like literally, I'm getting ready to die, I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table. And I'll be like, is that all you got? You want me to do some more? Right. Because I really don't feel like dying right now. This episode is brought to you by Life Lock. Tax season is already stressful. You shouldn't have to worry about identity theft on top of everything else. And trust me, it's a big worry. Especially since during tax season, your sensitive info does a lot of traveling to places you can't control. It goes through payroll, your accountant, or your tax consultant, and countless other data centers on its way to the IRS.

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35:30Join now and save up to 40 % your first year. Call 1 -800 -LIFELOCK and use the promo code joerogin or go to lifelock .com slash joerogin for 40 % off. Terms apply. And then I need to get to the team. I need to get out. I need to get to the case team and I need to get to an emergency room to make sure I'm not out of the day. And especially today with fentanyl and stuff. But that's kind of the general rule. I would say it's probably not a good idea for you to do drugs. Just without answering it completely, let me give you this. You're going to trial. We've got a two year case against you. And I'm up here articulating what I did.

36:13It's in my documents. It's in the recordings. And we've built this case. Usually with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming. The only thing the defense can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you've done your due diligence. Or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand. So imagine if they're saying, well, he did dope with us. You need to be able to articulate, did you? Why did you? That's more movie stuff. It does happen on levels. And I wish it didn't. But it happens on levels where people don't have training.

36:51And that's sad. Because there have been plenty of people, let's just use biker gangs from law enforcement, from local small department all the way up to Feds that have infiltrated biker gangs that have patched and gotten their colors. But the cases went to crap. They lost themselves. They lost their marriage. They became addicted to drugs. So we shouldn't be there. There's no case worth that. That's the best way to say it. There's no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or in danger. And you're so just walk. So what is the dance of getting to the bar becoming a regular and then eventually getting to know these guys?

37:27So that first night, I'm being loud and boisterous. And they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention. And he loved to be surrounded by big dudes. Take that for what you want. I don't know. I didn't dive too deep into that one. When you say hang out with these dudes, surround them. Why is there a jar of gasoline over there? What kind of party is this? That's what the camera is. Hey Scott, have a drink of this before you come in here. And sign this NDA. Yeah. What? So I start befriending them. And I'm being loud. Let me take it back. I'm being loud. This guy did like attention.

38:10He sees it and he's like, hey, hey, where the F are you from? So I fired some stupid comedy thing back. We start going back and forth because he's already asked the bartenders, who the hell's that guy? Oh, that's Tex. He comes up here all the time from Texas. I'm coming up here all the time. That's human nature. It's like, you know, you call to fish this big by the 10th person you're telling. There was like 10 of them. I'd to fight them off when my pinkies. But I get called over. I don't know who sent a drink to who first, but he calls me over and just starts shooting the shit with me. And from then, he pretty much invites me to one of their Northeast regionals called lobster fish, held in Brockton at that clubhouse.

38:55And we were kinda on the way. There was a guy who was not patched and his name was Scott as well. I said the name of the book. It's all adjudicated. It's all in the court proceedings and stuff, but Scott Town was his name and he was a big dude. He was jacked and he came in. I remember going to the bathroom and again, I think I'm doing pretty good. Like I'm in great shape and I'm being me. I'm talking shooting the shit. Nah, hanging out too much. I'll walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me kind of thing. So I go to the bathroom and nobody's in there. And for the listeners that don't know men's bathrooms and bars, usually at the urinal, there's some kind of box, plexiglass with some kind of ads like, hey, this person's coming next week.

39:40That's the, so as I'm peeing, I'm looking at the reflection and I see the door swing up. And I see this jack dude's got, it must have made an impression because in the report, I even say he's wearing like a gray shirt with black trim. He's completely sleeve down. I'm getting all this from like, you know, sleeve down on left arm, huge earrings. And I'm watching and I see him kind of ducking and looking under stalls and hitting the doors to make sure nobody else is in the bathroom. I'm acting nonchalant, but then I see him walk up to me. And for that split second, I thought I'm getting jacked. I'm gonna get jumped right here.

40:15But he ends up just asking me, what brings you to Massachusetts? I think what happened is they sent him in there to press me. And this is a good lesson, don't bluff. If you bluff, whatever you say today, you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later. It needs to match what you said on day one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out. But I said where I'd been around, MacAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff. He'd been in all of those places because he used to travel to country fighting dogs. So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there.

40:51And then from there, we start building relationships. Now I'm trying to ingratiate and I'm getting invited to parties. They, my story was that I was a site survey specialist and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas. And I would look at properties that they wanna buy, whether it's residential or mercantile and pulled stuff from the Clarkor court and all that kind of stuff. But as it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself. And that's when we started getting into, they were doing insurance fraud first with me. They would report vehicle stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price.

41:32And the story was, since I was based out of MacAllen, Texas, I've just used the facts that we were moving vehicles to Mexico and trade for whatever guns, guns, most likely dope, but whatever. And that's how we started. And then from there, now you start gaining more trust, you start hanging out more, you become tighter, you're building these relationships. And then it's like, hey, we just carjacks somebody. We got this car, we took this dude at gunpoint. This thing's got low jack or on -star, whatever was around and then we'd have to get rid of it. Don't worry about it, I got it. Have a truck driver show up, we load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever on the truck and they thought they were going to Mexico, but they were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts.

42:16So you never actually brought cars to Mexico? No. So when you would do that, we just get cash from the FBI to like represent. Yeah, I mean, I would pay them. Yeah, a stolen price, usually, stolen is usually 20 to 25 % of what it would normally cost, you know, because it's hot. And that just started gaining trust. I mean, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help, we call this cameos. If you're the primary undercover, that's your case. A secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together. That's gonna be a secondary role.

42:55If you're coming in as a truck driver, you're just pulling the parking lot, we're loading up stuff, that's a cameo. And I've done many cameos for other undercovers as well, you know, just rolling the town, do a deal, whatever. So no one's ever trying to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening. Not on that case, but if they did want to, we would have to work that out. We would have to have that kind of, because I took this from a buddy of mine who I helped certify as an undercover and I just thought it was a great way to say it. It's, look, at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking, I was a good day.

43:32You don't want them laying in bed going, man, there's something went right about that guy. Something, something's not right, because you want it to be as real as possible. So is it, was it a fact that the cartels at that point in time, loved four by four V8s and Harley Davison's? Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the time on the border? Absolutely. So that's, that's factual stuff that's real. So now I'm a guy, they, they eventually learned and believed that I was a high ranking, high ranking member of an international theft ring. And that's what we were doing. And then through those, through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I got to be careful of.

44:12I can't say, hey, I want to, I want to brand you that 350 quadcat, because then they go steal it. I somewhat of entrapment. I just led them to go steal that car, right? But over the next year or so, we're getting more and more stuff. I buy dope from them. Like I said, car jacking, we learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good ol' mafia days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions. But again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, yeah, we robbed that house. Is that enough to charge somebody? Probably not. As an assistant, he not say, it's turning, he gonna be like, yeah, that's enough.

44:52No, we're gonna have to dive in more and find out and vetted out and get that evidence. Wow. Stressful shit. Slightly. Getting stressed out, just thinking about you doing all these things. Me too. So how long is this relationship while you're building a case? Like how much time are you spending with these people? I was pro, for that case, I'll probably up there every three weeks for a good week, but then this constant contact when I'm not there. Next, yeah, well, next tells were big with him at that point in time. So yeah, church. Oh, that's the, yeah. The old days, the walkie talkie one. Radio, yeah.

45:25Yeah, a little bit funny. People forgot about them walkie talkies. Yeah, man. It was crazy about that. You could key up and talk to somebody in Japan. It'd be crazy for Chris, but if you try to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever. Yeah, they were terrible folks. But that's what they used and that's what I got. I was meering them. But yes, you build those relationships and it depends. Each case is different, but I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scott Town. It was absolutely scary how similar we were and how tight we were. Now again, he didn't know I was Scott paying FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Callaway.

46:04And he knew, I mean, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op, that evening operation, they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, hey, is Scott Town gonna be there tonight? I'm like, yeah. And even the FBI cover teams, this stuff would be like good. Because they knew that he cared enough about me. He'd take a bullet for me and protect me and vice versa, really, as me and Scott Callaway. And I mean, we finished each other's sentences. We thought the same other than the criminal stuff and some faith belief systems. But yeah, that was my tightest. And the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Closeline and he was the enforcer for the Tom Chabdard.

46:48And then after that, it probably would have been the president, which was Joe Dawgs and then it just trickles down from there. Do you have conflicted feelings when you develop like these relationships with these guys? I did. You can put on as much training, you can get the training, you can be a part of it. I'm still human, you know? Now, was I to a point to where I'm gonna go I'm leaving the FBI and I'm gonna become one percent. And some people do though, right? I know some people do, but I wouldn't do that. How often does that happen? Well, I don't, in the FBI, I probably not a lot, but those cases are well known if something happens like that.

47:26Somebody goes rogue like, you know, your breach story and all these people selling cigarettes and getting people killed, yeah. I, I wasn't there, I, nor would I be, I wouldn't be. Well, I would like to think if I did have a one percent or a club, nobody would ever infiltrate it though. Well, you probably understand how it works. But even then, I mean, you're dealing with raggum offing people. Yeah, you know. But those are like, again, those are my kinds of people. When we're riding around and we're, people are wrestling each other over tables. This is my favorite move, bang. I mean, at one point I'm driving down the road with Scott Town in the snow storm.

48:02And I'm driving and I'm like this on my hand. He reaches over out of nowhere and breaks my pinky. Just pop and that's suckers like a 90 degrees. And I'm like, mother, I pulled over, I slammed on the break. Well, I'm a snow, but come to the stop and I go, what the F is your problem? And he's looking at me and he's going, he he he he. I don't know what he was on, but he was in an evil space, right? And I'm looking at him and I'm going, look, if you want a F and fight, we'll stand by him and the dams snow storm right now and we'll go with it. I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you.

48:34And I saw it wasn't going anywhere and he was getting more and more angry. And I just looked at him and I went, he's an animal right now. I'm on a diffuse. I'm going to deescalate, which is really what you should be doing as an undercover. And I look at him and I go, hey, after I pop my finger in, I go, sniff, smell, good boy, friend, friend like that. I'm trying to calm him down. He starts laughing, but that's the kind of stuff you get. But to me, it was no different than being in college, playing ball. Hang it out with Psycho. Yeah, when you're there in the month of August and nobody is there, it's just 24 or seven football.

49:10What was it like when you eventually brought that guy down? It was sad. It was sad because in that case, there was a point where I had a young daughter and his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter. So I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap. And when they're developing as a human being, at that stage, they're kind of making the same noise as moving the same way. It was surreal. And then I remember thinking, man, I really like this guy. He likes to drink, I like to drink. He likes to fight, I like to fight. He likes to ride, I like to ride, he likes to live, I like to live.

49:54I'm like, man, we finished each other since. Everything already said. And then I look over at his refrigerator and I see all these stickers and magnets and stuff. And my eyes just settled in on WWSD. And for the listeners that don't know, WWJD is very common in the Christfile or Christian community. What would Jesus do? You see the bracelets all the time. I look over and say, WWSD, what would Satan do? And I look and I went, oh yeah, we're not the same. We're not the, I'm back. I used to, we'd be in the clubhouse and everybody's yelling. They're like, you know, if, for the, again, people who don't know, whatever your biker club name is, you usually get these same seconds.

50:32So for the outlaws, it's outlaws forever, forever outlaws. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. God forgives outlaws don't, yeah, yeah. It's better to be first in hell than second heaven. And I'm like, what? Tea. What's, hang on. I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a chalkwalk in Christian because I'm pretending to be a one percenter, you know, evil man, but what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good? I mean, you're helping me out there. So yeah, it's a crazy bunch. But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is we had been going for a year and a half and doing all these things, they've car jacked stuff, we're getting more and more evidence.

51:15There was a, hell's angel president murdered and canadicate, bridge port canadicate. Terrible town. Yeah, terrible town. Oh, bridge port is dangerous. So bridge port canadicate and the other hell's angel that was shot didn't die and he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates. We knew at that time that Florida outlaws were up in that area because they were hanging out with our targets. And even when I would call, I'd be like, hey man, it was a man's hot here right now. If you come out, you need to be strapping. I'm like, well, I don't want to fly with it. I don't want to put a bullseye on my back then.

51:53I'm like, hey, if I show up, man, we'll give you a vest, we'll give you a gun. Kind of thing. So we're doing all that. And now we get to the point to where we can, all the predications there, they've done wiretaps. The case team has been doing a wiretap. They know that there's drug bills going on, they're doing surveillance. And now we're to the point to where we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well. My story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close. So I pulled shocks and I was out.

52:30And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it's a lot less, the way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me. And then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with? And I go, because I'm the gringo that has the contact at the Port of Entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through. And that was really happening on the border. And I knew that because I was on the border working it. Again, real things, you're just putting them into your story.

53:03But I now let them know it took a long time. I don't put words in their mouth, but I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did used to be in the dope game. And of course, Joe Dawg's the president. I mean, the first time I met him and he said, where are you from? I said, McCall in Texas on the border. His next question was, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? And I went, well, if we were needing predication, I think you just gave it. But his business skills weren't that great because I'd say, look man, about 13 grand is what you could get a kilo for then on the border.

53:36He said, man, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13, I'm like, no, this thing, I'm gonna cost 13 up here. There's a reason to kilo cost 25 to 30 grand up here because somebody has to get it from the border to here. Now, if you wanna drop down the border and buy 10 for 13 of these and you risk taking them back over, but so we let it be known that I had some car, of course, they knew I had car tell contacts and we started introducing those. Some cameo undercover's came in, unbelievable people. And we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection. There was gonna be a drug shipment coming in and my crew was gonna be delivering it to another crew and we needed protection.

54:18And we did it in Brockton and several outlaws hopped in on it. The issue was this, at least one of the big issues. Pretty much that case I had a great time. Yes, it's violent and my mentality was changing. There is a podcast that's a series that's gonna be coming out with the book and they actually interview one of the task force officers who was over me on that case and the outlaws. And I remember him calling me and he was like, hey, what can I say? I said, tell them the truth. I said, I wanna know what you were thinking. I know what I was thinking. And it was really, really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing.

54:58He could see and like the FBI office might be saying, we want him to patch and he was over here fighting going hell no, we're getting everything we need now. If he patches, then they can order him to do shit. And it was just really cool to hear that. But essentially for the case, it was me and FBI case agent and two task force officers. We had Detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD, Sergeant Higgin -Bottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers and then an agent with the FBI. And that was it. I mean, they would add some here and there, but for two years that was it. It was us. So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection.

55:33And the Assistant United States attorney was like, hey, if you're gonna be at the clubhouse, or do they talk about this clubhouse? Well, yeah, and he gets, well that'd be awesome if we could get that recorded because it helps, right? To show what they're planning on doing. So the night before the deal's supposed to happen, they don't know it, but we've got 40 kilos of real cocaine and a thousand pounds of weed, real. So you can imagine, SWAT teams are involved, because I mean, can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine and Brockton and Tautin's are all wide awake for the next week, you know?

56:08Or there's ODs, you know, because that's a liability. Did you say you had 40 kilos? There's only 39 here. Hmm, you know what I'm saying? But so they say, hey, Joe Dogs calls me. It's not a church. He says, I need you to come to the clubhouse. Oh my God, cool. And of course I'm thinking, I'm type A, I'm scot paying. I got this. Let's go do this, man. These are my boys I've been doing this a year and a half. And I went into the clubhouse and what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at because that's trade craft. But let's just say I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing.

56:47I had a completely audio recording device somewhere else on me and I had a transmitter battery so the team could listen to him. And I went into the clubhouse like normal. But what you can't see, if you go back and you watch the video, is if I'm facing this way and I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar and you're laughing at my jugs like always. When I would turn my head to look this way, it's still filming and I didn't see it because I turned my head, they go stone face. And I missed it, I didn't see it. I do know that when I've got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door and I go the door, I'm knocking on the door and I'm like, you know, Joe dogs props me because they were out ready yet and I'll give them, why the hell did you tell me to come?

57:31It was being a smart act. What's the deal? I was just saying come if you're not ready. I didn't pick anything up. So I go in and for the listeners that may not know, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it several times, they wanted me to patch, but I'm with the, what I said for the task force officer, I said the same thing, I'm like, look, if I'm a pro bait and they say get your shit text, we're gonna go check this dude, I kind of got to go. I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever. But being a high ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, it's a little different.

58:10We were getting everything we wanted. So I go into the clubhouse, I miss that. I also miss that in the back, one of them, chocolate Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up and I miss that. And then my second closest contact, close line says, hey, tech, she got a minute and I said, yeah. And we walk, I've been in that clubhouse, I don't know how many times, Joe, but there's one door I've never been in. And that's the door he went in. And it was a very tight stairwell. And to, you can say a basement, but that's being very, I'm stretching it, because I can probably touch the ball wall on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight.

58:49So they bring me down in there, they've brandished their weapons. One of them walks in behind me, he's on the steps. So they got their pistols and my friend says, hey, there's a lot of shit going on. It's my job to take care of my brothers. I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number, all kinds of stuff. And I need you to take off all your clothes. I need to check you for a while. Here's the problem. Had I not been wired in embarrassing? Yes, naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement. Yeah, I would have been bad, but it would have been no threat, but I was wired to the hip.

59:29And so you think, man, do you fight? Do you try to get out? Well, there's already two or three there. I'm probably going to do some Tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist since I tried to fight. And then upstairs, there's what? 10 more outlaws. And that door, when I was getting it too early, and I didn't say, if you're not a patch member, you can't touch the door. That door has more than one deadbolt on it. They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those like shipyard metal bars across. So from a breacher standpoint, it's a fortified door. It might be easier to breach the wall next to it.

1:00:02So we're down there in the basement. And when I got to write my name down, I forgot my middle name. And that's because I was having an aircraft moment. I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as cops and shootouts, military and shootouts. Somebody in a car wreck first time, everything, when you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down. You get auditory exclusion. So everything you're hearing sounds like your underwater is going, whoosh, whoosh, it's slow. Like you're talking to me like this, time dilation, your eyes are clicking, you look and everything's in frames. Everything's slowing down.

1:00:35Your hamstrings get really rubbery. You feel your heartbeat and you feel everything poulting. And what seems like 10, 15 minutes is probably 30 seconds. And that happens. That's an adrenaline dump. So that was happening. And I forgot my middle name. And I'm going to Scott Keller, where Scott Keller, where Scott Keller, I'll start going through this damn roller dex in my head. And I'm going, I'm going, Scott Keller, and I'm going, Scott Joseph, I forgot, damn it. That was my middle name for another at least. And I don't realize that I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence.

1:01:10I would have never known, I said it, would have never agreed. I said it, had it not seen it in the recording. But I turn and I go, and what else do you need? And by the way, you've got a baseline of me now. My voice, it did not sound like this on that recording. My throat was tight, the octaves, I mean, it was very higher than normal. And I'm like, not even an unseating that well. I'm like, what else do you need? And they're like, what I go, my name and what else? Well, now I hear them scream up and they go, what else do you need for that website? So now I know, oh, are they going to Google me?

1:01:40Back then, there was Hoosirat .com, things like that. So I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence. And then I remember my middle name was, my nationals were SAC, because I'm an idiot. And I thought it was funny, because SAC is the head of an FBI division. And I knew I was never going to be one. So I made my initials SAC. So I remember my name, Scott Andrew Callaway. And then I write that down. Well, now I take off all my clothes. I take off my outer clothing, all my shirts. I take my boots off. And I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles. So pretty much naked for me. I mean, I'm definitely naked for my ankles up.

1:02:17And he starts searching me. And again, I'm having a no shit moment. And he's trying to talk to me. And like we'd known each other for a year and a half. So I'm not saying it out loud. But if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, tell me I'm okay. Is this okay? Well, clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with a face looked just like everything's all right. This is just procedure. However, he didn't know that I'm an undercover agent. And I'm wired. So that adds a whole other issue. So he searches me. I think we're done. He even one point, he even tells me.

1:02:56He says, trust me. If somebody accused me of being a fat, I'd probably smash him in the fucking mouth. And I said, as are his words. And I mean to say, well, I'm not happy. I'll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor. And I've had people ask me, what does that mean? And I go, well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor, and they're telling you to walk on it. They didn't cut you up. You get this to clean up the blood. I didn't see that. I saw a rope. I saw pistols. And I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece.

1:03:32So he finishes, and he's saying something. He goes, he was wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to town, your town and starts doing all this shit with you. I said, yeah, if you came to me, I didn't come to you guys. Y 'all called me over. Nobody has to do this shit. I'm like, what do we, you know, nobody has to do anything, right? And I think we're done. So I pull my pants back up, and I think we're done. And he grabs a piece of clothing in mine. And he starts kneading it and going through it. Now, this is 2005 to 2007. Ish, so technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is.

1:04:11But let's just say this. Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would have felt something. And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, hey, I'm not going to find anything in here I don't want to, like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he laughs, and his laugh is like, and my laugh is like, you know, and then I'm watching him go down the streets of clothing, and he's doing this and he's kneading it. And you can hear, again, I don't know I do it, but on the recording, you can hear me go, an audible sigh, because I'm like watching it. I'm going, what the, what am I going to do?

1:04:53So here's audience. He doesn't find it. Wow, almost. I mean, like, very, very close. And by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up, and now I've got another adrenaline dump. And now I've come in, I'm like, son of a, you know, it's peaks and valleys. And everybody that I've taught this to, or spoke about it to always ask, they're like, man, what would you have said? And I'll tell you, I had two responses, because I'm a jovial idiot. My first response, if he would have said, what is this, I would have probably said, I don't know, some naked pictures of your old lady, to try to buy myself some time, maybe making quit searching.

1:05:32The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember, like it was yesterday, I would have said, the gig is up, I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here, and we can see each other in court, or all hell is gonna break loose. Here's the issue, as I get a swig.

1:05:50That would have been a bluff on my part, because as far as I knew, every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me. For whatever reasons, because somebody's gonna say it's tradecraft, but again, this is 2005 to 2008, but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse. And I make it out. I end up going out with Scott Town and Joe Dogs at night, but what happens is I am legitimately pissed off, because now my adrenaline's coming back down, and I'm taking it personal, I shouldn't. I'm undercover as an FBI agent. I'm not really Scott Callaway, I'm out kind of sick. But you're so deep in the role.

1:06:30Well, and it's really me, kinda. I mean, that's the whole thing. I'd ever was far off of who I really am in life. A pedophile? Yeah, you hire me to kill somebody. No, I'm not gonna ingratiate with you. I'm a stone co -killer. But I'm hanging with you for two years, or a year and a half or whatever. Yeah, the jokes are kind of the same. So I'm pissed. And at one point, I'm telling Joe Dogs, I'm like, you know what, man, F .I .U. So I said, yo, show up tomorrow. I said, I'm stripping all y 'all in a damn parking lot. I was just, boy, they were nice. They let me vent my stuff. Well, that night, when I went to turn in my equipment, and an undisclosed location, probably 34 or five in the morning, to the case team, what I found out was this.

1:07:12The shift started with Sergeant Higgin -Bottom, everybody called him Higgie, and Joe, the detectives. I'd be detective. These guys are awesome, phenomenal law enforcement officers. Although I think their love language is yelling. LAUGHTER Maybe that's my southern thing, mixing with the Northeast thing, but they told me. They said, Scott, we heard you in there. And I'm like, what? When I had that first interaction with Joe Dogs, they are very street smart. They're very good investigators, and they have been working this group forever. Something that happened in that first interaction made their spotty senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer.

1:07:54Say, something's not right. They had pulled close enough. They heard everything. They put on their vest. They suited up, and because they'd been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the center block wall next to the door. Oh, my God. Just to smash that. Sometimes I'm teaching this. I'll joke about it and say, it probably would have killed me because I was in the basement. You know, but... Reverse back up. LAUGHTER You're so damn heavy. But at that moment, I was scared of death, right? So they tell me what happened was, they pulled close enough.

1:08:30They heard everything. They're suiting up. They have radioed now, because it's kind of the beginning of the shift. They've radioed now back to Boston. Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to Holland, asked to talk Massachusetts. So I say this in the Jovey away, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI Academy together. And that night, again, I'm still shell shocked. He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you. And I looked at him and I said, you weren't.

1:09:04I was there because I was looking for any friendly face I could find, and that's damn whole. But so that night, we haven't talked about my family. I try not... Well, I'll take you back. In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended. You know, 911 hang -ups, stuff like that. But at that point in time, I'd bought my wife, everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone. But I'd bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing. So my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security. That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always called her every night.

1:09:44And again, five, seven in the morning, it didn't matter. And it might just be, she wakes up and says, hello, and I go, hey, I just want you know I'm done, heading back to the hotel room, whenever I wake up as afternoon, I'll call you. It might be that quick. That night, when I called her, the first thing she said to me was, are you okay? And I said... She felt it. I said, yeah, why? And she said, I was driving with our daughters, as such and such time in Macallan. And she said, she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me. And I matched it up, this one I was in the basement.

1:10:19So... Wow. Say what you will, but damn. Wow. Yeah. Apparently my shit signal. Apparently, I don't need Verizon or anything. It went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas, but it's just, I mean, that's just one of the little, one of the things that happened and it just takes a toll on you every time. You can only imagine. Yeah. So, I'll get you to the next day. We do the deal. Clothesline doesn't show up. Well, that pisses me off. Wait a minute, you supposed to be my boy? And you took me into the damn basement, stripped me at gunpoint. But you can't come up. You don't show up the next day and help with this thing.

1:11:00Again, I'm taking it personal, I shouldn't. So, everybody knew there was a beef. Well, it's just fast -forward a month or two. I go back home, I come back, and Big Scotty had even said he goes, look, these guys are going to settle it's like grown men face to face. They ain't going to happen every damn phone. So, the next time I go back to Massachusetts, I'm at a canteen where we used to go hang out and drink it and bridge water. And... Another hard town. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, this is my people. This is where I get called. We did not do any meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott. You know what I mean?

1:11:36I was like, I was like, I meet me at legal seafood tonight. My fellow criminals, you know? Yeah, so I'm at this canteen and clothesline walks in. Now, you got to remember the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement. And he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he'd been disheveled. And he says, hey man, can I talk to you for a minute? And the first thing I said was no. And he says, why? I said, because the last time you asked me that, shit, I ended up naked in the basement. No. So, he says, and I was like that. So, we went back in the kitchen and we're talking.

1:12:14And what we learned, or what I learned in the case team learned is when we up the anode to do that drug deal. And again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for? Cheaper product, higher quality. It's just more money for you, right? So, he was really, especially Jo Dock, they wanted to get a pipeline. They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they could get quality dope, you know, and have a very successful business. So, I'm in there with him. And I'm ready to go to blows if we have to. And he starts talking to me. And he says, you know, Scott, he said, what had happened, well, I was gonna tell you, is that the call went up to the top.

1:12:57And the top to us meant Milwaukee Jack was the national president. And this makes a hard argument for when they say, it's not an organization. You do your own stuff. We only DM each other. Nobody knows each other's business. Well, then how did it go to the top of the outlaws who said has this guy ever really been checked? And they go back and say, well, we've done like six to eight jobs with him. And we're not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs. And he said, I don't care, check them. So now, that's when I get stripped of the basement. I learned that. And this is what clothesline tells me. And he got to remember, my mind said, is screw this guy, I'm ready to go to blows.

1:13:33I'm not gonna look like a bitch. And he says, man, I know I was born to be an outlaw. I'm either gonna die young or die in jail. He said, and these are my brothers. He said, but I really don't have a lot of friends. And he said, one's that I know would take a bullet for me and I'd take a bullet for them. And that's when I start looking at his face and I'm going, oh shit, don't you say it, man. Don't you say it? And he says, and you're one of those people. True. So now I'm like, and he says, the reason he didn't show up is because he felt so bad for what he had to do to me in the basement that night.

1:14:10He got so obliterated that night. He was passed out through the whole drug deal the next day. So that night when I called my wife, she says, hello, and my first words are, or she's like, how's it going, how did it go? My first words are, I am a dick. I go, I am such a dick. This guy loves me. He cares about me. Now, that's the real side. That's the human side. Now, there might be, we don't train that way. We tell you, look, that's not you, but I'm still human. I'm out there. I'm out there. I'm surprised we hadn't said this yet. A lot of times, if I'm speaking or teaching or whatever, I'll put up there.

1:14:51What does undercover mean to you? So I'll ask you, what do you think undercover is? You're pretending. Okay, you're pretending. You infiltrate an organization, pretend to be one of them. I get that a lot. I get lying. We're here acting. You're a character. Here is the definition of undercover work. You are building relationships that you're going to betray. And that sucks. If you look at it that way, especially if you genuinely have something in common with these guys, and you actually like their company. Now, don't get me wrong. If you haven't done anything illegal, well, then no, I'm really not.

1:15:28I mean, I guess I'm still betraying you because you thought I was somebody else, but we're not arresting you. I've done undercover's like that. That doesn't happen all the time. You're in there for five months and you're like, there's nothing federal here. I mean, they're just, they're there within their constitutional rights. And you just bail. But you have to, you are basically building and betray relationships, especially if you're gathering evidence of criminal activity. And you need to know how you're going to deal with that, rationalize that in your mind. So it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche.

1:15:58And that's tough. You know, I'll fast forward you a little bit. I crashed on that case for that three year period. I've been going nonstop and I'm not saying I'm tough. I met my threshold. I think your threshold changes every day, just like you cumbersome. Some days I take off jogging at 54 years old. Sometimes I take off running and I go, it's gonna be a damn good day. I feel light, fluffy, floating on the clouds. Some days I take off running and I go, how long have I been running? Two minutes. Damn. It's gonna be a long day. You know, so you cumbersome changes. I think your threshold changes, but I go into great detail in the book.

1:16:42But for three years, I had been doing too much. Well, I say doing too much, but even when I moved to Tennessee, I did too much again. I just learned how to balance it better. I'm a workaholic. I love working. I love doing it all. Swat call outs, running tactical schools here. Case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail, undercover. But I had stopped taking days off because I didn't want to give management a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an undercover. I'd just work through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases.

1:17:20Teaching all the tactics and firearms for Macallan and Brownsville agents, resident agents which is just a satellite offices out of San Antonio, on -swat, running firearms for them, stuff like that. And I'll just stop taking care of myself. So we get to a point to where, like I said, anything great detail in the book, but just picture this. I already give you a little bit of a blurb on the undercover school, right? Two weeks, no days off. Let's just say I'm there for 10 days. Well, once we put you to bed, we're probably gonna hang out and drink a little bit because you're my peer and it's also therapy.

1:17:54And I have it, it's good to know that you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you are. And there's a lot of bonding that goes on there. But that means for 10 days, I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep. And I've probably got too much alcohol in my system before being transparent. But then I leave straight from that undercover school and I go right into an undercover. And let's just say I land in Sturgis, which I did. And the hell's angels shoot five outlaws at point blank ranks my first day there. Like I hadn't been in town like an hour. Now there's two old ladies, two past members and a probate, but they're all shot.

1:18:29They confirmed it was hell's angels. We're talking paralyzed from the waist down for life. We're talking crushed clavicles. I mean, not just like a zinger. And now you're back doing that for days on end. And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself. I got to the point to where I was a walk in zombie. I was on an histamine's de -congestance inhalers. I was taking hydroxy cuts like crazy. I was making the strongest coffee I could possibly make. And I drank a pot of coffee and thought of sleep. So what I learned through the book process, even though I'd learned a lot already, I found out from my wife, I was a ghost, man.

1:19:09I'd come home from SWAT, WERT, undercover, whatever. I'd be on the couch, my daughters would be on my lap. I'd help put them to bed, but my wife couldn't even ask me a simple question about the bills. You know, hey, there's this bill I got. Do whatever you got. I can't think. I just need to, and she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put anything on my plate. So we get to the end of the outlaw case, and I'm starting to crash. Didn't know it. If you are a certified undercover and you are active in the FBI, you mandatory have to be psychologically assessed twice a year.

1:19:50That whole thing is called safe guard. I'm not outing anything. It's out there. It's on the internet. But the safe guard process was created by Joe Piston, Donnie Braske. It was created by Joe and a former agent who was, his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Ban. And they came up with this because Joe, you gotta remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines. There was not, there probably wasn't even an operational procedure manual for undercoverers. It was like, here's money, here's your recorders, go make a case. He was one of the first 25 undercoverers in the FBI in 1972.

1:20:26That happened right after Hoover left. Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique, but soon as he was out, they started working undercover. But the safe guard process goes like, you take a bunch of psychological tests, and then you're gonna sit down, you're gonna take a break, it's gonna put a bunch of numbers into some charts, you're gonna sit down with a clinical psychologist. They may be an agent for the FBI, they may be contracted in. They're gonna go over all that stuff with you. They're gonna dive deep into your psyche, try to. And then after that, you're gonna sit down with somebody like a pesto or an experienced undercover, because you know the old saying, you can't bullshit a bullshitter?

1:21:00Well, we use undercover, you see as a verb. You can't you see a you see. So I remember going to take one of the tests as an open -ended sentence, you have to fill in the blanks. So I'm on my way to Daytona at a world run with the outlaws still rolling heavy in the case. And I stopped off at an undisclosed location to do the assessment. And I remember like the open -ended sentence might be men are and you gotta finish it. I'd always say men. Women are, I put women, maybe like what do you mean? I go you know what I mean. That's the I'm not up in the neck can't or I'm sorry. No, we're different, how's that?

1:21:40But there was one that said the last time I relaxed I and I couldn't think anything. Wow. Nothing. And that's not me BS and I'm like sitting there at the table going, well I work out all the time. I'm like, but that's not relaxing. It's not like I'm not staying and listening to Yani and shit. I'm like I'm trying to throw 45s across the gym, you know? But I'm like, so I just made up a story. Even even at that moment I thought that's really screwed up. Wow. But I was like, yeah, I end up big deal. And again, way more detail in the book. But the thing that happened to me was I ended up out not partying without laws and mongos all night.

1:22:24We wake up the next morning. I mean, you can hear and feel the whiskey and eggs squishing in your belly, you know that. And I'm like, I've just feel disgusted. I'm gonna start working out. So I'm in the hotel room doing, before P90 came out, what kind of that thing? Burpees, mountain climbers, pushups, air squats, sit ups, all this stuff. And I came up and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler, took a decongestant and a histamine, three hydroxy cuts, two cups of coffee. I don't know if there's anything else in there. I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack.

1:22:58I was like, who knew? Oh, that's making sense. But I had an anxiety attack. I was trying to work out. I came up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all about combat breathing, forgot about paper bags. And but did I stop? Did I say, man, that's really screwed up. No, I took a nap, got up, started drinking jacked onions and went back, but when I flew home, I slept, wheels up the wheels down, till I hit Houston. And then I slept, wheels up the wheels down, till I got to Macallan. And I think probably the first two days, I'm not a slept close to 20 hours. A day. But for the whole week, for a five, for like Sunday to Friday, I slept an average of 16 plus hours a day.

1:23:43Wow. And I wasn't depressed, I wasn't sick. I know what they both feel like. I was at damn tired. So by Friday morning, I take a phone call from a former good buddy of mine. He is probably one of the best undercover's I've ever seen. But he was calling me about a possible another biker case. And his first question was, how you doing country? And I'm like not too good. And then he let me talk for an hour and convince myself I needed a call safeguard. So I called him, they came in and did an on -site assessment. They diagnosed me as oversigned and they said, you can continue the case on the phone until they take it down.

1:24:24And I stayed on the phone, I made a story up because I'd gotten married technically. And I told him I was getting divorced, but I had to relocate my wife and my kids to El Paso, where her family was at. Once that's done, I'm pulling chalks, I'm coming to Massachusetts. We had already created, it was in the creation, our own biker club that it was approved by the top of the outlaws to be the number one support club in the Northeast. And we were in a name at the righteous few. Scott Town was gonna be the president. I was gonna be an officer in it, Sergeant in Arms. And I never went back up there because they told me I couldn't.

1:25:00When you get put on time out, it's like, you know travel. You can be a case agent. We're gonna suggest to your division, no travel, definitely no undercover work. There was some confusion there because one of the arguments is you need to integrate, you need to get back in to be in a case agent and remember what you're supposed to be doing and I'm like, I never stop being a case. I'm running all these damn cases while all this is going on. But I took a time out. Well, I've made some phone calls. There was one guy named Tim Sylvia, not the fighter. Who is a buddy now, by the way. This guy's name was Tim Sylvia.

1:25:37He had been in prison most of his life. But before I stopped going up there, he was introduced to me. He knew about the cocaine. He knew about what I did. He calls me and says, man, I got some stolen vehicles for you. I'm in the magic powder business. If you can get me those bricks or whatever he called him, code on the phone for 18 of peace, I can buy 10 of them right now. So I call the case team and said, look, he's reaching out to me. I can't come back up there. So we rigged it up to where the guys that were posing as my truck drivers went and they were gonna pick up these stolen vehicles. They had like a seven series BMW worth 100 plus grand at the time and some other vehicles.

1:26:21While they were with them. So here I am on time out in my garage, sweating my tail off in the gallon, and I've got my two phones. I'm talking to the undercover, I'm talking to Tim Sylvia. I'm telling them where to go. They're being covered. They go, they meet while they're meeting Tim. The truck driver, suppose playing my truck driver, calls me. You can hear me clearly on the recording. I'm talking on it and I tell him how much to pay Tim for the stolen vehicles. And Tim was like, how I'm gonna report the BMW stolen on Friday. And I said, can you make it Saturday? Give me 24 hours more to get this thing into Mexico.

1:26:57And they did that. And then when they went to load the vehicles, he hit them for 18, a key for 10 keys. And they said yes. And they ended the case with them doing a ruse delivery of that dope. And so you ask about the relationships. So this is how it ends. I'm in Nevada, helping put on undercover school. That was one thing that SafeCard said I could go to. Because they also knew they could do many assessments, watch me, put me around other undercover and make sure I'm not losing my shit. And I came over with the time difference to Massachusetts. But I've already been drawing up diagrams of all these houses and clubhouses I've been in and I'm sending those to all these SWAT teams all over the Northeast that are gonna be hitting all these places.

1:27:45And I got back to my hotel room and I always kept my undercover with a case when I never technically had any way. But I always kept my undercover phones on for at least a month after a case went down. Because you got threatened or anything like that. Well, I get back to my room and my next tells Sherpen. And I check in this, this is Scott Town. He's left me a message. So I churpy him up and he's all a raspy voice because he's been just woken up and he's like, hey man, I just want you to know your truck driver, Tony and the other guy, they were beating big Timmy. And I don't know what happened, but I think they all got locked up.

1:28:21Well, he doesn't know that I'm an undercover. He's telling me that that was the takedown day. So he's calling me and I'm like, oh, I said, you know what brother, I appreciate that. I don't always control everything they do. Sometimes they do side jobs on their own. I said, they were not up there for me, but I'll try to find out what's going on. He's, let me tell you what I'm gonna do. He said, I'm gonna get up, get cleaned up. I'm gonna find out what the hell's going on. I'm gonna call you back. And I said, okay, his last words to me were, I'm gonna get chucked up. His last words to me were, I love you brother.

1:28:51And I churped back and I said, I love you too. And he didn't know that the SWAT team was gonna be hitting him in about 40 minutes. Wow. That's the last time I talked to him. He'll probably hear this. I got a 50 -50 shot if he walks up, I'll hug him. He probably wants to beat the shit out of me, but. Jesus. Man, is he out? Yeah, he's out now. How much time did he do? I think he did like eight, eight or 10, somewhere in there. Do you have this anxiety of running into those guys somewhere? Yes and no. It really comes with a job. However, somebody pointed out a difference to me the other day. There, I'm like, man, as a cop or as an agent, you're locking people up and they're getting out.

1:29:35If you get threatened in Greenville County, if you're working for Greenville County Sheriff's Office, let's say we're here, was it Travis County? If you get a threat, a legit threat in Travis County, do you think they're got the money in the budget? Or they would even spend money in their budget to move you to another town? No. But in the FBI, we have that. You hit the threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff. So in law enforcement, there's always been, you can lock people up, you go to the grocery store, you're with your wife and kids and you see them. Everybody hands up their own way.

1:30:04For me, my best defense is a good offense. I'll just walk right up to you. Hey, man, totally shit. How are you doing? I cannot believe, when did you get out? Are you okay? Hey, are you on the straight and narrow now? You know, because I'm gonna tell you transparent. There's few things I love more than a success story. Sadly, they're very rare in my 28 year career. But to see somebody who broke the law, got out, turned themselves around and are doing great. I love it. You do see some of those. Yeah. And I'll help them. I'm helping one right now. I told them, I said, look, if you're doing the right thing, they're like, well, I got a felon on my record.

1:30:44I'm like, well, who better to be a reference for you on your application than the guy who gave you the felon? If you're doing the right thing, I'll talk for you. Wow. We all mess up. I mean, shit, you know? But that's gotta be so complicated because you're the guy who got him arrested. It is. And I have had threats that were legit. And I've had them at the sheriff's office where I was like, what do we do? And my lieutenant's like, we're gonna get some cops. We're gonna knock on that day's door. Okay. And I've also been in the FBI where you could have gotten moved and I decided, no, I'm not. Once that case gets taken down, I'm avert.

1:31:19Like a lot of people may not know it. I'm not trying to insult intelligence, but when you're arrested, I may be arrested with you. I may not be. There's all kinds of ways we can do a takedown, but eventually you're gonna be sitting with your defense attorney and you're gonna get discovery and discovery is supposed to be everything. Now, there have been FBI people who did not turn everything and it was very wrong and we are still paying the price for it, but discovery is supposed to be everything. And at that point, you're gonna hear me on a preamble. You're gonna hear me go, let's see what's the day.

1:31:47You're gonna hear me go, this is UCE, undercover employee. This is UCE, one, two, whatever. This Wednesday, March 26, central time, 245 PM about the walk -in to meet Joe. And they're gonna hear that and they're gonna know that I'm the undercover. They may not know my last name's Payne, but they're gonna know. Now, what somebody pointed out to me was, you know, there's a cop though, you're just doing your job and you're arresting them. There's an undercover, you've lied to him and I went, hmm, probably should have thought about that for I did the book, kind of. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, damn. But I try not to, I don't wanna live my life in fear.

1:32:25I'm a optimist, I'm a glass, I always have full guy. God, that's hard to believe given your circumstances. I don't know how, for me personally, I don't know how to survive otherwise. Because if I was doom and gloom in the glass, I always have empty, maybe this is a good time to interject this, first responders military. Do you know what we're, I'm talking fire, medic, cop, military. You know what we're number one in? Suicide. Suicide. You know what else we're number one in? Divorce. Alcoholism, throwing pills or whatever you want there. We're also number one in dying within five years after retiring.

1:33:02Who signs up for there? Right. You know, hell yeah. First in hell, second heaven. No. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. No. I'll pass, but yeah, so that hurt. I mean, it's very surreal. And yeah, great job, but yeah, I mean, I'm human. And I did really bond with that guy. And just like I felt like a piece of trash when Closeline told me that I was really, he considered me really his friend. Wow. You know, so how's he doing now? I don't know if he's out or not. He was supposed to get, I think he got 12 and a half, but I didn't keep up with it. I mean, sometimes people go to jail, they pick up some more charges because they did something stupid in jail.

1:33:43But I will tell you, talking on that, talking on that success story thing. Most of my career with the exception of a pedophile, almost everybody I've arrested. I'll sit down with them and I'll say, listen, I'm not saying, I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I disagree what you did. What I'm saying is, as you're an adult, you made a choice to break the law and you got caught. So let's just start right here. This is whatever, it's all I got. This is on the table. Let's don't do that date and game BS where you lie to me for two months and I lie to you for two months and then when we figure out, we really do kind of like each other.

1:34:20Now I can tell you the truth, this is what I got. And it's just, it's not dehumanizing and there's still people and I love connecting with people. Like I said, wow. It was a great attitude. Did you ever think like why you're talking to people like Scott Town, like man, if my life had been different and I'd gone down the wrong roads, grew up in a different neighborhood? You would be one of them. Absolutely. Absolutely. That's why we had so much in common. Yeah, that's part of the problem with life. Everybody wants to pretend that that could never be me. No, it could have easily been me. And I'm like, I looked at it and I'm like, it's that proverbial fork in the road.

1:34:56I went that way, but I could have easily went that way. That's why I got along with them so much. Other than like pedophile stuff. So what pedophile stuff did you have to do? Actually, one of the quickest undercover I ever did was the most satisfying. And I actually did this one, I think, before the outlaws. It was in San Antonio. There was a guy that got picked up from a less than a kid. And I didn't know the whole backstory. But in the San Antonio Division, the agents and stuff, near me or the swat people, they knew I'm the undercover guy. And they called me up because while he was in the Bayer County in San Antonio, he approached somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid or define somebody that could kill the kid.

1:35:43A lot of these murder for higher plans are stupid, but that's actually what's too bad of a plan. Like if the kids, these cases are tough. They suck. They are atrocious. They are, I mean, it's a waste of oxygen in my personal opinion. But it's usually a kid from a broken home. It's after the fact. It's an adult versus a kid. But he knew he wasn't going to do well in prison. So he approached somebody in prison who then, as most people who are serving time do, they are trying to get credit to get out. And that person called his attorney, and that attorney called the FBI, and they worked it out to where he entrusted me.

1:36:21So I drive up to Bayer County. I sign in because he put me on the list. I go in and I'm in the phone bank. It's all stainless steel. You can't hear nothing but baby mamas and everybody's screaming and cussing and pissed off. And here I am trying to get this recording through this glass. And I'm talking to the guy. And I said, you know who I am. He's like, yeah, I said, well, I hope you do, because you put me on your list to come see you. You know what I do. And he's like, yes, I was like slow rolling it. I didn't know. I didn't want to scare him off. So I was like, you know, I'm in the extermination business.

1:36:56And he's like, yeah, I killed PES for 11. And he said, yep, I says exactly what I wanted. And I had a picture of the kid. Of course we're working with a family on this. But I had a picture of the kid just walking like a surveillance photo. And I put it up on the window and I said, is this the pest that you won't take and care of, something that had effect? And clearly on the record and thank you Lord, it picked it up. He said, that's him. So you're not gonna call a bug at him, right? So what I found out is I met him twice just a two -meat thing. But what I found out from the Solister's office in Barric County, it was mostly women working it because the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit.

1:37:42And Joe, when I went walking in there and they're like, this is Scott, I mean, they all stood, it's like some TV show. They stood up and they started clapping. I'm like, I don't understand. And it said me, Chess Beaton, that's not what I'm trying. But it's like, what is going on? And they're like, thank you so much. You're so, and I'm like, I appreciate it. But I'm doing my job. What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before. And he also walked on some possession of, somehow he got out of possession of child pornography stuff. And, but when he found out, when they approached him and said I was an undercover and that they got him, he played guilty to hire me to kill the kid and played guilty to the molestation of the kid.

1:38:25Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard. Cause he starts, he's like, yeah, yeah, and I go, all right, well, what do you got? This sat in the other, we're talking to him and he was, hey, I'd like you to kill the rest of his family too. They're in Wisconsin. And I'm actually giggled a little bit cause it threw me off. I went, well, I'm not above traveling. But let's deal with one pass to the time. I'm like, you agree. I'm thinking to my head, oh man, you know? But he knew, as most pedophiles do, you're not going to do well in prison. So his idea was kill the kid, kill the family, and then there's no evidence like he did.

1:38:56Yeah, he just gets to walk. Cause there's no witness to show up to trial. Jesus Christ. Right? Yeah. And then being around that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent that come in, they assign you as the training agent, and they might be working that stuff. And I'll tell you for me personally, that's tough to work for me. This before I even had kids, I'm ever seeing like, I don't know, like five images, we hit a guy, he was actually a professor at University of Texas, Pan Am, and he was so vigilant. I mean, he had like, he had all the child porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex.

1:39:39Oh, geez. So I mean, you could say I want Asian male 11, and he would have, I mean, and it was just sick. Now, did he come from the best up thing? Yeah, turns out his mother had molested him and his brother with Tom in the basement, Tom and each other make them have sex with each other. Oh my God. But it's horrific, but break the chain, man. Break the chain. So yeah, I saw like five photos, and I was messed up for probably a week or two. A professor. Yeah, my wife would try to touch me, not even just to be in, I mean, just to touch, and I'd be like, ah, no. I'm like, I can't, man, I gotta get this shit out of my head.

1:40:15Now, later on in undercover, I could be the guy to drive and pick you up. I could show you pictures, this is what you want kind of thing, but like sit there and look through that stuff. My brain's not cut out for that. But there are those who are, and in the FBI, they, if you're looking at that, you have to be psychologically assessed as well. As you should. I could only imagine. How are these guys getting these videos? Are they making them? Joe, it is. There's like, see, that's the thing, right? It is so huge. It's so freaking huge. That's the scary thing, because most people aren't aware of it, and this is one of the big conspiracy theories that there's these pedophile rings out there, but they're real.

1:40:53Yeah. Yeah, human trafficking. Now, I can sway on some of the human trafficking stuff, because I've seen human trafficking from the border all the way to the hotel room. If it's, it's rarely a hooker ever on free will, or an escort of on free will, but if they're out there doing, I don't know. It gets a little muddy on some of the trafficking stuff from me personally, but it's still trafficking. They got brought in when they were under age. Now they're a product of what they've been forced to do. It's very sad, but as far as the child porn stuff goes, it's insane. I've worked with some, they call them eyecax, crimes against children, and there's so much out there, but, there was so much, this is just me in Tennessee.

1:41:39I'm with them. They have so many hits on whatever dark web thing it is. Might be discord, I'm trying to think of what it used to be. But there's all kinds of stuff like that. That they'll go to these, what they believe or what are encrypted apps that are based overseas. So they don't think that the FBI or Feds here, the alphabet boys and girls can do subpoenas and get that stuff. That's why they use those. Now does that mean that everybody on Discord's bad? Absolutely not. Telegram, no. But do people go there to do bad things? Yep. And it's just like, you could go, I remember them showing me stuff as the undercover coordinator.

1:42:17I'm over there and I'm looking at stuff. And they're showing me what all the hits they've got right now, just people hitting and through the databases, you could do knocking talks every fricking day all day long. Hey man, how you doing? Hey, you might not get in there, but yeah, it's a mess. A mess. And so there's a whole ring of people all across the country. Yeah, or just mom and pops, farmering out their kids. Oh my God. Yeah, the sex across state lines. Oh. Yeah, not good at all. There's just like, again, I mentioned the count several times. This isn't undercover stuff, but case agent stuff.

1:43:00I mean, I might look at doing a book on case agent stuff. I was down there working the cartel with me and the people I worked with. That was back when Ozeol Cardenas ran the golf cartel. So it was violent. Violin is, you know what, but there was some kind of SOP. There was like a procedure. But I mean, when I try to tell people, I'm like, look, I don't care whether you're left or right. I meet all kinds of people. If you're extreme left, I'm probably going to tell you here in Idiot. If you're extreme right, I know you're an idiot because I've been with them. I'm like, I just want to bring it, what's so funny is you start here and you go far left and they're like, I'm a socialist.

1:43:38I'm a socialist. I want everything for free. I want it. And you start here on the far right and they're like, I won't hitler. I won't hitler, but that's socialism. You get here. It's the same shit. They just want stuff for free. I want all whites. Well, that'll fix everything, you know? It's just insane. But down on the border, you tell people you're like, man, they just, I'm not saying that, I'm not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff, but a lot of it runs on corruption. A lot of it runs on money. And they do not value life like we do. I mean, man, they chop heads off. It's all kind of stuff.

1:44:10I mean, they're just all on heads off. You find a van full of eight heads. We worked kidnapers and extortions down there all the time back then. One of the cases, OZL, we thought it was a wives tale. And this is sick. So I apologize to people that think this is way gross, but it's real. The first one didn't act gross. He had a line. He would feed people too. A line. And that was the rumor. And then I can't remember if they went up in a fix wing or a helicopter, but they flew over the line. And somebody was asking the other one, hey, what are all those bones? And they were like, I'll pull you. Chicken.

1:44:48That's a big ass chicken. That chicken looks like a femur. You know? So there's that. But the one that was really sick is, so when they were kidnaps, like if you lost a load or they thought you stole something or you didn't pay your quotas, because even as an undocumented, special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, illegal alien smuggler, you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory. Same thing with Doug. If you got behind on that, they kidnap you. Same M .O. Three suburban's pull up somewhere in South Texas, jump out on such and such corner. Everybody's in black BDU's.

1:45:24They grab you. That was the satis. They were the enforcement cartel. They take you over, beat you, start calling the family saying, we want a hundred grand, 300 grand, whatever. You start, we'd start brookering to deal. Because we have border liaison officers and we would do cross trainings with military and police in Mexico. So the border liaison officer calls and goes, hey, it's such and such time of day on this corner. Three suburban's pulled up. The guy's name is this. It was this time of day, 30 minutes to 30 minutes to an hour later, we get a call back. They got him. What's the deal? He brought a load back and it was missing a hundred grand.

1:45:56Okay, so now I'm in the house with the family going, okay, they want 300 grand. Well, we don't have it. Well, they don't have it. They want a hundred grand. We don't have it. Well, what do you got? We got 60 grand. What else they got? Remember my V8, 4x4? They got a suburban. How many miles are on it? And here we are at midnight, rolling the suburban over the bridge with $60 ,000 to get the sun back. Wow. So one of the, we thought was a wives tale, is that OZL had a, I don't know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget, small person. I don't know. But the rumor was back then that he had a midget.

1:46:35He was very well endowed. And he were great people for the cartel. And he thought that soaked in for a little bit. Jesus. My comedy starts coming out. I'm like, how do you get the small person? I don't know. Yeah, that's this thing. Like, so we all thought it was BS. And then there was a Christmas Eve. We started getting calls. I was actually driving to Arizona for vacation. But I was on the phone calling sources and calling all the other agents. The, this guy had basically car jacked a car in Rio Grande City. So directly across the river is Camargo. So he gets in there. He didn't look at the back seat.

1:47:20There's an infant. Now the cartel's pissed at him for bringing heat and they are beating him and they're, I mean, it's, they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos, bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns, real big, battery cables, stuff like that, threatening them. And we got him back. But when he came across the bridge, my peers called me and go, holy shit, Scott is real. I go, what are you talking about? So this dude is bawling. When the call came in and the car tells us like, okay, let this one go, the magic was in the room. That guy was crying when he came back across the bridge.

1:47:55He was getting ready to get raped. Wow. Slightly sick, right? Yeah, slightly. It's a different world. Yeah, that's probably the least bad thing they can do to you. I don't know. I don't know how to look in the mirror after all that. I don't know. You get out a lot, I guess. It's insane. Or do you? So other than the pedophile cases, what were the most like shocking cases that you had to do? Hmm. Well, they're all a little shocking in their own way. The pedophile one's got to be the hardest one till it's sleep at night. Yeah, but what a good, but what a good feeling to get. Right. That's a different feeling.

1:48:38That's a non conflicted feeling when you get him. Good. Yeah, when she called me when the assistant solicitor called me and said, hey, he played guilty. He got 20 for, I can't remember which was for which, but he got 20 years for, I believe the most molestation and 10 for hire me to kill him. So and then they had to do state of Texas with 85%. So yeah, it was going to be a tough ride for him. Part of the bun. Yeah. But yeah, so crazy stuff. Man, I mean, that's not near Nazi stuff was just insane. How'd you get involved in that? Well, number one, I go where my skillset takes me. Number two, we kind of go to what the shift is in the FBI, where people doing a lot of biker club stuff anymore, not at that time.

1:49:23I was a criminal, a criminal investigator for pretty much my entire career. But towards the end in Tennessee, I switched over to the journalism task force. And I really did it because it was just, I was having some disagreements. Some would be lightly, but I was having disagreements with management. And my MO had always been, even though I'd burned myself out before. Once I got to Tennessee, I set up accountability buddies. I set up trip wires and stopped saying yes to everything and made ways to relax and balance and get myself back. But towards the end, we, I switched over to the journalism task force because again, my MO was try to be above average on your squad.

1:50:13And then if you're kicking butt on stats and stuff like that, then maybe they won't say no to let me go to the undercover. Maybe they won't say no to let me go help put on the SWAT school or the SWAT call out. And that was what I did. But that wasn't working for me in Tennessee anymore. And I went to the head of the division and requested to be moved. So I went to the George Hesham task force. And my skillset kind of led right into that domestic terrorism stuff because it was like, like in the state of Tennessee, you have Aryan nations, which was the Tennessee Department of Corrections, TDOC prison gang, but it's white supremacy.

1:50:56So as a case agent, I started working that stuff. And then I just started getting more exposed to those kind of cases. So now when the canvases start coming up or we're running and undercover up ourselves, those cases are coming in and it's like, okay, I'll do that one. Unless anybody's got a disagreement, you know, and that's what I started doing. That's how we kind of got into those because we started getting more threats, you know, after the Charlottesville stuff, now it's really getting kind of on the radar. They're like, man, this is maybe we should be putting more resources. Maybe we should be putting the FBI saying maybe we should be putting more resources to this domestic terrorism threat.

1:51:33And that's when I started getting. I mean, I would go into kind of mentioned it earlier, but a, a neo -Nazi group, but it's mainly online. And here I am for five months reading posts after post. And if I woke up after six hours of sleep and there was, I was 1500 pussed behind, I'd rewind it and read them all for five months because I didn't want to miss anything. Me personally, I didn't want to miss anything or anything bad happened because I missed something. But after five months and maybe meeting them once or twice, there was, it's all first amendment protected. They weren't doing any thing to prepare for the violence.

1:52:10Through two calls violence, they're just preparing for the day. And then when the day happens, then they'll be ready. But again, I talked to people ever see his candidate, whatever I have to explain. I'm like, we're in the United States. We have a constitution. And your first amendment is freedom of speech. I said, you can walk out in the street right here and say, I hate every, say a racial slur. I hope every racial slur dies. That's not illegal. As you know, you see it, you can burn American flags, freedom of speech. Try that in China. Right. Let me know how that works for you. Death to China.

1:52:47A life of flag on fire. I'm not sure how long you'll last, right? Not long. But that's what we, that's, that's the hard thing about working domestic terrorism is there's no federal domestic terrorism statute. So you're trying to see what crimes are they committing if any. And what can we do to get them off the street if they're planning bad things? So how did you infiltrate the neonats organization? Did you actually meet with them in person or was it mostly online? So I'll just jump to the base. Okay. Because the base was the one that's kind of the beginning and the end of the book. They were actively recruiting.

1:53:27I mean, I was in the clan too for a little while for the job. I have to hear if I say the right. That people clad in the back. Back when I was in the clan, we were good old boys. But the, they were recruiting openly online. The base was and the base is an accelerationist group. And that's what I, again, great detail in the book and the podcast. But the thing is is most people here, white supremacy, they think hoods and robes and crosses on fire. That's not this, man. These are, this is why they're called accelerationists. There's a book out there called Siege, written by James Mason. Long time white supremacists.

1:54:11It's a weird book. It's basically articles and interviews all just shove together. But this guy kind of idolized and interviewed people like Charles Manson. You know, what a great role model. I mean, if you're looking. But he created a group called Adam Waffen. And this is what accelerationism is. Because when I go to infiltrate the base, I'm just answering stuff they're putting out there. Emails, they're posting on GAB, save your race, join the base. We're a survivalist group. Emails is the base underscore one at protonmail .com. So I started answering that stuff. After about a week or so of emails back and forth, asking me everything.

1:54:54My ethnicity, my height weight. When was my red pill moment, which they kind of used the matrix thing there? So if they say when were you red pilled as a Christ follower, it's the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved. If you're an accelerationist or that level of neo -Nazi and they say, what was your red pill moment, you need to know it. Because it's kind of like the big deal. That's when you said, hate all of the people. So after about a week or so of emails, I get on, they tell me to download the wire app, similar to WhatsApp, you can call and talk on it and stuff like that.

1:55:30And create groups all over it. So I do like about an hour and 15 minute interview panel of like four or five people asking me all kinds of stuff. I answered best I could, best I prepared for. And then they gave me a 24 hour rest period. So they said, now that you know what we are, we're going to give you 24 hours to think about if you want to be a part of us. And we want 24 hours to think about it. But this is what they told me accelerationism was. They said accelerationists, they call it siege culture, kind of parlaying off the book. But they do not believe there's a political solution to save the white race.

1:56:07They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or for manmade events. And they want to speed that up. The group I was in was calling that bugle, the bugle, and everything always ends with the netth nest state. Now it's not saying the groups that I was in, they weren't going to take over the entire United States. But the group I was in, one section was looking at property and land and the Appalachian Mountains. One section of the base was looking at the upper peninsula of Michigan. One section of the base had property in the Pacific Northwest. So you get in there, you start learning that ideology.

1:56:43But again, in the beginning, I'm just ingratiating. I mean, we know they've been saying crazy stuff online, but is it illegal per se? No. But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things? And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture. You go in telegram or whatever. You've got your parents and your brevics and they're in there, 4chan, 8chan, and they're posting right before they go and commit all the murders. You know, here I am, I'm going live. Watch this. But imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out which ones actually going to follow through, which one is seriously planning on doing something.

1:57:25So you always got to stay vigilant and keep going after it. So what were these guys planning on doing? What was their accelerate moment? Well, per the siege culture, they like to do guerrilla warfare tactics. So they're against the shortest field stuff. Being in a group, picket signs, screaming racial slurs, you know, all this stuff, they're against that. They're like, that's stupid. Here, number one, you're making yourself a target. You're not doing anything. It's more guerrilla warfare tactics where, let's say over here in Austin, power grid goes down. Over here, train gets derailed. Over here, water systems poisoned.

1:58:02Anything to create chaos and killing of anybody left. Anti -fash, non -whites, very anti -submitting, very like way more than it kind of opened my eyes when I started getting into some of these neo -nazis because for the most part, I thought, when I thought racism, I thought quite against black, right? But these neo -nazis groups, I was in, man, they are anti -submitting, man. They cannot stand Jews. Wow. It's like, it's sickening if you listen to it. But again, they want that Hitler. They won't hitler back. I mean, some of these guys were talking about concave earth, hollow earth, Hitler's still alive.

1:58:45He's in hollow earth. He's with giant white men who are Anglo, white with red hair and 15 plus foot tall. Tom likes, and I go, so where are these 15 foot tall white guys? And they're like, well, they're in the middle earth with Hitler. They're waiting. And I go, for what? If we're going to take... Come on, let's do this. Let's take this thing down. And sometimes I'm just comical with them. You're like, hey, we're neo -nazis. Yeah, we're going to get to ethno state. Yeah, we're ready for the bugle of it. Yeah, we're building our kit. Yeah, who's going to be Hitler? And everybody goes, oh, we're going to be one, buddy.

1:59:24Are we going to fight it out right now? He's going to win this thing. But what happened with the bases, a lot of them were into the pagan. And I say this loosely. I have plenty of friends that are pagan. Sotrou and they are great people. Love. What do you mean by pagan? So there's different pantheons. But the most common one is Norse mythology. Basically, the Marvel universe. So the worship ancient ancient ancient cultures? Yeah, Odin, Thor, whatever. Yeah, man. Is it church for that? Well, I don't want to say a church per se, but yeah, the whole block, the block is just think of viking kind of stuff.

2:00:13The ones that do it that are serious, they're upset that why supremacists have taken their stuff and used it. But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology too. He had, you know, he had you looking for Thor's hammer or whatever, the Holy Grail biblical and all this stuff. But there's Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the wise supremacy realm. Not to be confused with Christianity. Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this, they a lot of them have a, it's the dual seed line belief. So they take the story of the garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the fubin tree.

2:00:53They take that story and they say, okay, it's still the same except the fruit of the fubin tree is a sexual act with the serpent who is a man of color, also known as Satan. And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, they're offspring as Cain and they are the mud race from then on. That's what they call them mud race, non -white. Mud race from then on down, but the procreation from Adam and Eve is able, and that's the pure white race. That's just one of the many belief systems. So when you see on that, right? Yeah, I'm like shaking my head like, what the fuck? What, how did you get that? What are they using as like references?

2:01:33Like how do they get this information? Ah, so as far back as that I know, I'm sure it came out earlier, but there was the Aryan nation, Reverend Butler, Red Ray Fayer, and all that stuff, and they taught that. They taught the Christian identity, church of Jesus Christ Christian, and they take that and twist it, you know, as if Jesus is just a white guy. And so did you physically meet with these guys and infiltrate their organization? Yeah, some of those, yes. And the Christian identity was kind of in the Clan belief that I was in for a short moment. But the pagan, just like I said, that the Christian identity takes the Bible and twist it, then the paganism is taking Norse mythology, or if you're an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they're twisting it towards their white supremacy.

2:02:21And that's not what paganism really is, if you know, like again, I've got friends that do it. They're upset with white supremacists using their stuff. But then again, in the base, there was a guy who was in a sotry priest, and he led the first blood I ever attended, B -L -O -T, which is kind of like the worship ceremony for pagans. I mean, we're down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking mead, as if we're Vikings, and then praying to our gods, they would take a wood carved wood, and they would carve runes, and like white supremacy symbols in it, and we would cut ourselves and bleed on the runes, and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out.

2:03:06Whoa. Yeah. And that was kind of... How many of these guys are out there in the world? I don't know. I mean, there's academia stuff that they're like, there's millions of white supremacists and Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow. I'm not going to say that. Well, they want to call everything white supremacy, which is a real problem, because there's actual white supremacy out there. Yeah. And when you call everything white supremacist... Just somebody disagreeing or having a different belief system. Watching a video of a fucking crazy professor who's saying that marriage is white supremacist.

2:03:35It's the craziest video of all time. There's an undercover video where they interviewed this lady, and she was asking her questions, and she didn't know she was being recorded. She was a professor. Yeah. Like marriage is thin privilege. It's white supremacy. It's, you know, male privilege, which leads to white supremacy and white privilege. And like just a bunch of gobbly -gook nonsense words that she was attaching to just people getting married. Clearly she's not a cross -fowler. If you follow the Bible, it lays out what marriage is. Yeah, well, she's definitely not. She's a cook. But it's the problem is calling everything white supremacy.

2:04:11It kind of... It obscures the fact that there's really people, like the people that you're running into. They're real. Yeah. And it's just like how many of them and where are they?

2:04:25Thousands, hundreds of thousands. Yeah, I'd say, I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but that's a thousand. Because a lot of times, if you're in that community and you're looking, let's say this is a telegram channel every year, and it's tear wave or whatever it is before it was taken down. And you see all these monokers, like I was Pell Horst in the base. I was Pell Horst. I was my moniker. And then you see pestilence. And you see TMB, the militant Buddhist, and you see Helter Skeelter. And you say, well, you might go to another group. Maybe they've changed their moniker. But you start realizing, hey, did you used to be pestilence in another channel?

2:04:58Yeah, that's me. All right, you know what I mean? Right. But what's scary is like in that base case. As I said before, I'm a tactical instructor, firearms instructor. I'm an alert instructor, which is right in here where we're at right now. In San Marcos, Texas. And but you can't go undercover and help these guys train or help them get better because they might be doing bad things. So I go in, I had my whole backstory, former skinhead, former biker, and my skillset was like hand -to -hand combat. Could I shoot? Yeah, but I let them lead me. We went out there and the first time we did tactical and firearms training, it was led by 19 -year -old kid.

2:05:46And it was good. It was good. And he's not a military. And I'm like, I'm watching. I'm like, where the hell do you learn this? So a lot of stuff happens on gaming systems because they're so realistic now. Wow. Yeah, I mean, these kids, you can go on. And if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you by an 11 -year -old kid who's telling you to clear the hard corner and slice the pie. They're using the same verbiage and I'm like, holy crap. You know, virtual world meets real world. Only problem is, is in the virtual world, you get to respawn. Not so much in the real world, you know.

2:06:19I'm going to respawn now. But yeah, he let it and they were shooting fast and accurate. They were in the best. They were mistakes. But I was impressed with how safe they were. The two guys running at TMB in Peslin's. Because that was a concern for me. Right. Like if you could see the aerial footage, like when we first go out there and they're shooting, I'm way back behind them because I'm like, I don't know how these people are. Right. I've seen plenty of bad shooters. There's some stupid things on the line. And then we start working like that. So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots, hikes, drinking, ruck, and whatever.

2:06:57And then it starts, we're finding out a little bit more, not necessarily anything. Not necessarily anything criminal, except for the fact that there was a Canadian who was part of there. Basically, it's like it would be like their national guard. But he got doxed. And for the listeners that don't know doxing, basically, he's being outed. So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on putting up flyers and stickers. They go by and they slap up stickers everywhere. You know, join the, save your race, join the base with a QR code. You scan that QR code. It takes you right to bit shoot to a video of us of a propaganda recruitment video we filmed in Georgia of us shooting and everything.

2:07:43There's one in Canada. He puts up flyers. Somebody answers it to make, again, it's more in depth in the book. But he meets this guy. The guy does the same panel kind of thing I did. But then he gets spatted face to face. So when you get vetted face to face, it's going to be a little bit more intense. They do a face to face vetting of this guy. And he says the Punish Snake was the moniker's name is Patrick Matthews. He was up there and he vetted in face to face cities get to go. So after about a week to two weeks, tops in the main chat group this dude, Bales. And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada who went on his own and met Patrick Matthews.

2:08:27And infiltrated at least to a certain degree the base. And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews. And so Pat, R C MP comes to his house, takes his guns. He gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job. His parents don't like him anymore. And they losing. They find his truck near the border of the United States. So we're all looking for him. And you have to realize that on the base case, let's just say you've got 40 targets. Well, they're all over the world, a lot of them in the United States. Well, every one of those FBI field offices are open separate cases.

2:09:08But we're all trying to work together because it's the same group. And we get to a point to where... I'm sorry, we were looking for Patrick Matthews. And there's an unbelievable case agent. We had several on the case, but Nate Poo was running the case out of Seattle because the leader of the base had property in Seattle's territory. But there was a case agent named Rashid, who's out of Baltimore. And he's running for the guys there. Rashid was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone analysis.

2:09:51When Patrick came into the United States and we're tracking, we're all looking for him. We think we might know where he's at. And I show up at a training in North Georgia and Rome, Georgia. And he's there. When I pulled up, I see vehicles and I'm counting the heads under the barn. And I'm like, there's one extra person. I know that's that person's car. I said, well, I see when I walk up. I walk up and by then it's haired all grown out and had a red bushy beard. And he's like, since he started talking, it was a Canadian accident. And I was like, hey man, welcome to the United States brother. So now we had him there.

2:10:20And now we're starting to find out a little bit more about death plot and this, that and the other. But is it just drunk talk? Or are they actually planning on doing something? Right. And then that's when we get to the big Halloween of 2019 hate camp.

2:10:39Base members that came in from all over the United States. And again, I've done some pagan blots with them. Like I said, cut yourself. I remember the first time I did it, I was like, damn it, why didn't I bring my own knife? And when it was time to cut your finger, the tip of their knife was broken. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to slice my damn arm up and my tats. And I'm not going to slice my finger up. And I'm trying to stab my finger to bleed with a broken tip. Note to self, bring your own knife next time. So I did. But we're doing Halloween. We're there. And I doze off. We've already done hand -to -hand combat, some firearm stuff.

2:11:19Had a couple of drinks. And I'm charging my phone and my truck. It's really cold. So I kind of doze off. I wake up to pounding on my wind. The pedal horse, pedal horse, you got to get up. You got to see this, you got to see this. I'm like, what's going on? And they're like, man, remember us talking about a sacrifice and a goat? I'm like, yeah, we got the goat. So I get out. And there's this ram in the back of one of the members' trucks. They had gone not far away to a house that had three rams. And they all dressed up. And I'll paint the picture for you because the clothing, the camouflage pattern that the base war was fleck -torn.

2:12:02Because fleck -torn patterns, German. Again, how Hitler kind of stuff. So they went where Bala Klauba's cover everything up. They hop fences, steal this ram and bring it back to the farm. And Rome, Georgia, so I'll wake up. And I'll walk out there and this thing's crapping all over the bed of the truck. And one of the members, pretty big fellow, he says, man, this thing's shitin' everywhere. And I said, well, hell, I would be too if I just got kidnapped by a bunch of dudes and fleck -torn and Bala Klauba's, you know? So now we're kind of preparing and I'm thinking, man, we're really going to do this.

2:12:36And I walked over to the guy, he went by Eisen and he was going to be leading the block. And Eisen says, I go up to him and I go, man, is it bad? That I feel sorry for the goat. And he says, you can't let the goat hear you say that. And I'm like, okay, do tell. And he's like, he goes, this is a sacrifice to owe. This is a beautiful sacrifice. We love this ram. We love this goat, whatever the hell it was. We love it and we're showing it love and it is being blessed to go to Vahala and meet Odin. So the rule was, everybody leave your weapons and we're going to go down to the holy spot and deepen the woods.

2:13:19Hundred acre farm, by the way. And we're walking down there and the goats just makin' all kinds of racket. And we get down, I'm sorry, I should have let me rewind just a little bit. I'm trying to figure out in my head. Should I do this or should I just blow the case right now? And I'm thinking, well, they said they took the goat. Okay, so that's theft of an animal. That's not federal. I'm like trying to go through my head. So I go to my truck and I lean into one of my devices and I'm like, hey, if y 'all can hear me because when I was out in the field, I'm covered. So for that four day hate camp, they were covering me 24 -7, running shifts.

2:14:00They being law enforcement. And I go and I go, hey, if y 'all can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this animal. And I'm running it through my brain and I know they said they stole it. But I can't come up with a good enough reason to stop this right now. If you guys don't want me to do this, you got to send me a sign and let me know. And I waited and I waited and it was crickets. And then I said, okay, I get some going down to the woods. So we go down the high. You had your chance. I was waiting. Oh my god. So we go down to the woods and we get there and I don't know how.

2:14:46I ended up at the back of the goat. We're in a circle around the goat and I'm at the back of it. And Eisen, who's leading the plot, is talking about we're going to be starting the wild hunt. In Norse mythology, the wild hunt is basically odinning a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and whipping the crap out every other god that they didn't like or whatever. And the twisted version of the base, starting the wild hunt was going to start with the sacrifice of this goat, which he named a gar. His middle name was Garfield named after his grandfather to show love to the goat. He named it Gar after his grandfather.

2:15:19Okay. So he says once we commit, do we do sacrifice and it goes to Valhalla that that the wild hunt will start, but the wild hunt was going to be cleansing the world of non -whites. So the goat was the start of this whole wild hunt? The wild hunt. It's in Norse mythology. It's called the wild hunt. But again, they're twisting it for white supremacy beliefs. So he's got this machete type object and I'm at the back of the goat and he's going through it. He says this odin prayer and he didn't lead the black nears get as the actual esoteric priest that did it before. But he's trying and he's going back with this machete and I'm holding the back of the goat and somebody's holding the front of the goat.

2:16:10He's coming down. He's practicing. Pregusing and he's a pretty stocky kid. And finally somebody says just do it. Man, he rairs back with all of his strength and comes down right on the back of the neck of the goat. I don't even know if it broke a hair, Joe. I don't know if it's because the back strap of the goat was so thick or the blade was dull. But when he hit it, all your hair was bad. And for that split second, I'm holding the back of the goat and I go, oh man, I just saw blood. I just picture something bad happening. And then somebody says, is anybody got a gun? Do you hear? Do it again.

2:16:43Do it again. Am I take two swings and you hear somebody got a gun? Well, I told you we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down. Well, there's one cat who was probably the least qualified person to be carrying a firearm anywhere within miles of us. Said, yeah, I got mine. And we were like, what are you doing with your gun? So TMB takes the gun, hands it to Eisen. Eisen, we're still all Arnie's in a circle around the goat for this sacrifice. Eisen points the gun at the goat, goat's head and then turns the opposite way. Oh Jesus. And that's when the instructor comes out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

2:17:21He's like, what are you looking at? What you're shooting at, man? We're all in a circle. What the hell are you doing? So then he chambers around and gets up close, pal. Even on the recording, you hear the goat hit the ground. The cunt. Well, sitting there twitching. It's been like two, three minutes. It's still twitching. And I'm like, hey, why don't you go put another bullet in the ram. He's like, I think it's dead. And I go, I'm just saying for the love of the goat and it being happy in Vahala. Let's give it a good clean kill. Trying to use this logic again. And he puts another one in it and then somebody says, yeah, it's definitely dead.

2:18:01So you think it's over. No, it's not over. Now they slice the goats throat and fill a cup with all of his blood. And one of the guys had brought a sheet of acid. I said, I said, I said, I said, oh boy. Yeah, right. It's supposed to help with a shaman, which is kind of entering the spirit world during your block. You're going to get high. And I'm shining the light because this pitch dark, when the middle of the woods. And I'm shining the light for Izen. He's going around and what's happening is, is he's tearing off a tab. Not everybody did it. Of course I didn't do it. But he tears off a tab, puts it under a tongue.

2:18:35Some people never even done it before. And then you chase it down with the blood of the goat part of the sacrifice. So he gets around. Some people do it. Most people do it. A couple of us didn't. And then it gets to me. And I'm looking at the cup full of blood. And by this time, it's coagulating. It's all cloddy. And I'm looking at it. And I'm like, oh man, I do not want to turn that up. I really don't want to turn it up. And I think it was pestilence to get me an out. He's a man. You can just take this. So I stuck my finger all the way down in the blood, pulled it out, sucked all the blood off my finger.

2:19:13And that was my way of dealing with the sacrifice. Not exactly fear factor stuff. But I would have sucked. I would have been good on that show except for the growth stuff. But yeah. But disgusting. So over the next, actually the next day of training was completely obliterated because everybody, 90 % of the members were all still high, been up all night on acid. So we couldn't train the next day. And I was pissed. I told them like, this is wasted, freaking day. I said, these sons of, you know, obviously, do you get my hard time. And then by Saturday, we were back training again. And then by Sunday night, I'm sorry.

2:19:47Friday, we were training again. And by Saturday night, we did a bunch more training through the day. Like, you know, navigating the land, living off the, living off the land, building bunkers and stuff like that. And then it's time to shoot some more for the propaganda video. So we go back down in the woods. And at this, now we're doing a bonfire at the Holy Spot. And we are burning American flags. And we're burning holy bottles. While everybody's yelling, if you're Jewish God, then death to America, stuff like that. And I remember the one kid that was pretty clumsy. He almost fell in the fire trying to light the flag on fire.

2:20:32And in the video, you can see me grab the other side. Part of me wanted to just let him fall. Just seem to go, I don't know if he didn't want it, but flames are not, but a little Darwinism. But I hold the flag. We burned the American flag. We're screaming all that. And they take, they take holy bottles. And this is on the video. They lay them face down in the fire. And I watch the fire go up. It's coming back down. We've been there a minute. Hell yeah, high five, and white power, all this stuff. And it's coming back down. And if you've ever seen like a book in a fire, all this pages, it looks a certain way.

2:21:13Kind of ashy. Well, the one guy, the Canadian guy, he can't not screw with the fire. He's over there. He's probably still got asked me to system. He knows he's still poking the fire like, oh, man. So he's stoking it back up. Well, while he's trying to stoke it back up, he flips something over. A Bible opens face up, and there's nothing burn on it at all. Like the outside's chart, but there's not a single page burnt. And I'm like, okay, that's different. So he's trying to get it started. He starts tearing page by page, gets it on fire, bonfire goes back up. We're all doing our thing. Bonfire comes back down.

2:21:51He's poking the coals again. I'll be damned if another Bible doesn't flip open, completely unburnt. And I watched them put it on that face first. Now, I know some people with the sides, and they're like, well, and a lot of Bibles, the page is made out of clay, and they don't burn. But listen, I watched a flag burn. I watched all that stuff burn. And I actually have a picture that if you blow it up, I didn't realize it. I was just taking pictures like everybody else was taking pictures. But I was in my hotel room one night, just going through my pictures, and I blew it up, and you can clearly see a holy Bible in the flames.

2:22:23So I'm a believer. My faith is huge throughout the book. I wouldn't have not been able to do any of it, in my opinion. But I remember when that second Bible flipped open, one of the one of the base members goes, he goes, man, these F and Bibles just won't burn. And I remember, I did it very nonchalantly. Maybe he only in my head, but I did a little Sammy Sosa, you know, to the sky, you know. I'm like, yeah, you get him, Lord. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, that's funny. By the way, if you want to blow everybody up, y 'all just let Skydy know, and I'll be real still right now. But yeah, so after that week, I kind of said, I got a pretty dumb sense of humor, but I got back to the office, and I said, I've been doing undercover work, Alphanon says, 1996.

2:23:09And I said, I know my skill set takes me to different places, and other people, I said, but I have never had to burn Bibles, burn an American flag, and I'm damn sure, a wasn't with a group of people that went out and stole a goat and sacrificed it at a pagan ritual, and drank his blood. I said, I've done that in three days with these guys. And I mean, I felt weird. I felt weird when I got back. I just, you know, I call, I am texting my pastor. I'm like, I need you. Say a prayer, I just felt, I don't know, dirty, something around. Yeah. I felt weird, you know. Which is weird, the guys like that exist, and organize, and find other guys like that, and get together.

2:23:43So online, it's this phone. Listen, a lot of these kids were young, I say kids, because I, it was the first alias I ever did where I made myself younger. My whole FBI career, I was always two years older. It was just easy to remember. I mean, I turned 40 with the outlaws. So when I turned 42 years later in real life, and I'm in my, whatever I was at, my calendar, or Tennessee, I'm like, yeah, my other party was a little better. I'm not going to lie. I'm like, you know, the outlaws party was, I mean, thank you guys for throwing me a party, but this is not really nothing compared to what I turned 42 years ago.

2:24:19But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast, because we were getting calls from world working partners, because, again, this is online. You hop in those groups. There's people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway, you name it, and they're all, because it's online. Now, they may not be able to get weapons, like we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying into the states and doing some hate crimes. I mean, hate crimes. Well, I'm sure we'd be doing hate crimes, but hate camp. But they dive in. And what I saw a lot of is younger, younger guys outcasts, don't have a job, can't get a partner, you know, and they just dive down this rabbit hole.

2:25:04They've probably been bullied. And they dive down this rabbit hole to hate. And it's always, it seems like it goes back to like gangs and cults and stuff like that. It's that need to belong. And they want to bring you in. And that's how they get you. And then power and then be an inclusive, having people with your own like mine. But that's not just on the white supremacy side. Same things happening on the Islamic radical Islamist side. They're radicalizing you online and endating you with videos. You could go into gab. I don't even have gaps to the round, but you could go into gab. And there would be a group called 14 words.

2:25:40Well, that's the 14 words coined by David Lang. It is famous in the white supremacy culture. It says something to the family, but memorize it anymore. As I say a lot of times when I'm speaking, I go, hey, just so you guys know, I appreciate the questions. But since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore. Probably good. I'm just saying. I mean, I appreciate you asking me. Were they the wackiest people that you were around? It's going to be close. It's going to be the pedophiles of the most. Well, yeah, but it's going to be close. But the I don't want to say I'm not easily shocked.

2:26:20It's just that, I mean, you see so much stuff. It's like again, it's that proverbial coroner who shows up eating the sandwich with brains everywhere because they've seen they got to eat, you know, they're just used to it. So there's definitely been some wacky things. I mean, on the case I just saw that stuff on the border was pretty wacky. But undercover wise, these guys, I mean, they were, I don't know about calling them wacky, but just they were planning it. I mean, what we did is we uncovered violent, we uncovered several murder plots. They had found a couple that they believed were an antifa couple, a couple of counties over in in Georgia and we went and cased the place.

2:27:04The idea was it started. It took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of times. But essentially what was agreed upon is that we were all going to beat the Georgia cell. When I say sell at CEL, which by the way, it's probably a good time to say the base in Arabic is al -Qaeda. Wow. So al -Qaeda wanted to have three to five man sales CEL and I know I got a red neck accent, sales all over the world waiting on that D -Day call. Well, the base, which stands for al -Qaeda, wanted three to five man sales all over the world waiting for the bugle. Wow. You've got kids, 21 -year -old has no car, has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet.

2:27:54He's wearing plate carriers or the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears. It's not cheap stuff. And however they're getting their money, either from parents or whatever they're doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the set off of the race war. So we uncovered those murder plots. I remember Helter Skeleton, we got the postponement because once we figured out they were trying to kill people, man, we got to slow this thing down and make sure we've got control of it. Much like a murder for hire. If you're hiring me to kill somebody, I want to make sure that I got the contract.

2:28:26So you're not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person. So we were riding out there and Helter had not seen the house yet. And Helter, I'll take the plan a second. Helter, we're riding out there and Helter goes, if you don't mind, and I'd really like to pop my cherry on this one. Well, you and I here pop my cherry. It probably means something different because I was like, what are you talking about? And then Luke, TNB, he told me he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing. And he said, man, I've been waiting for this for two years because I actually want to be, I want to put one of the bullets in their head.

2:29:04And I said, well, it's a 22, 25, whatever with the silence around it. It may take more than one. Shouldn't be a big deal. But the idea was, and this is how much, this is how much research was done. We're going to go to a campsite. We're going to leave everything electronic there. We're going to leave from there. We're going to have a car that doesn't come back rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever. We're going to go to a pay by the hour hotel. We're a motel. We're going to go there. We're going to scrub and scrub and wash and wash to get any flakes of skin that may be loose to come off. As detailed as Vaseline on your eyebrows, facial hair, so you don't drop any kind of DNA, tape up kind of like WMD.

2:29:43We're going to tape our jacket to our gloves, our pants to our boots. So nothing can leak out. He had, Luke had even done so much research. He had read that a lot of people who who killed somebody for the first time will lose control of their bottles. So he was suggesting we all wear depends. Well, we're going to commit the murder. I didn't tell him I'd ever killed anybody, but I looked at him and said, I think I'm okay. I don't need to wear depends. So that was the thing. And then we're going to go into the house, breach our way in, murder whoever's there. Because it was like, are there any kids there?

2:30:17Helter was like, I don't have a problem killing the common kid. Now, Helter kind of looked like a normal guy. Had a computer IT job. He said that was a great cover for him. Because everybody thinks he's just a normal person in society. This is a guy who also told me he said, again, they want to accelerate the downfall. This guy told me he said, I voted for Hillary Clinton. And I was like, I'm in here with Neo Nazis and threw me off guard. I'm like, why would you do that? And he goes, think about it, bro. He said, we want to accelerate the collapse of society. So she gets in. They usually try to defund the police.

2:30:56They make our military weaker. There's going to be riots. There's going to be all this stuff. And there's just going to be chaos. It'll help speed up the downfall of society. That's how that's what they're thinking is. So we got that murder plot going on. And then you have the Canadian guy and his sale up in, actually, it would have been, can't go back, which is a Brian Limley. They had a sell up in the Maryland area. And I went up and I trained with them. And they, at that point in time, so it would have been coming up to January of 2020. There was going to be a huge second amendment rally in Virginia.

2:31:36Because the governor at the time was pretty liberal. Did not like guns and was going to be making a lot of, was trying to crack down on guns. Second amendment. So the idea of those base members was, what if that's the set off of the bugaloo? What if, while all those people are there, you've got three percenters, which is not illegal. You got militia, which is not illegal. But you've got people wanting to do the various things, most likely. You've got cops. What if we just pop a couple of rounds? Nobody knows who's shooting it who. And everybody, and maybe that's the kickoff of the bugaloo. Again, there's not a lot of fourth thought and afterthought with these guys.

2:32:11It's like, what about the national, I mean, what about army, maybe air force, what about fricking cops? You know, we'll deal with that. What about girlfriends? I ask them. I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about procreation all the time. I don't see any women. I got a woman. She's not for share. And they're like, oh, we're just rape them. And I go, I'm sorry, sorry. What? Because yeah, we're just going to rape the women. When D -Day happens, and this is the bugaloo, yeah, we're just going to take the women and rape them. I kind of giggled it. I said, you guys don't have a lot of experience with women, do you?

2:32:42And they're like, wow, and I go, well, that stuff might work for a little while, but sooner or later you're going to have to go to sleep. You might wake up missing some parts you went to bed with. I'm like, what are you talking about? But we uncovered all that and we got enough evidence against them that everybody was happy. And the week of the takedown, I'm sorry. Yeah, it would have been closer to the week of the takedown. I had to postpone it. I had a lumbar fusion in 2002. What I didn't know. I thought it was just my disc, a bulging disc or something. What I didn't know is that fusion had broken free.

2:33:15And for about 15 years, I just had nothing. I had no disc, the cadaver bone dissipated. So my back was spasming really, really bad. Like, I couldn't get out of the floor. So I took some prednisone, got off the floor with electric stem. I decided we had to postpone it for a week. So then I went and on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore, met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware, trained all day with those guys, helped get more information that everybody wanted. Came back late to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up to try to close the deal with the Georgia crew. And I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours.

2:34:00I went back. Now I'm meeting with the SWAT teams because we're planning on the takedown. And by Wednesday, I picked up Luke, who lived on the 100 -acre farm. And we did a ruse where the car, like my car was messed up. I'm like, did you hear that? Actually, more divine intervention. I was going to fake that something was wrong with my car and my truck. We're driving all the sudden. So it goes, bam, like that. And I go, I didn't run ever anything. I go, did you hear that? He said, yes, I swear that damn brake caliper froze again. I said, let me pull over. Well, I pulled over to the spot. SWAT team wanted me to.

2:34:32And then we did a ruse. I was around the back of the truck looking. And another truck pulls up. I'm like, oh my gosh, man, I can't believe you're here. And then I jump on that truck. And then the SWAT team and the Bearcats roll in every the hill. And they took him without incident. Hiltor, scalter, and pestilence got picked up without incident. We kept all that quiet on Wednesday because come Thursday morning. SWAT teams from Washington Field Office and Baltimore Field Office were going to be hitting that crew. So we wanted to keep it quiet. So now Thursday, they get arrested. Now stuff's starting to come out.

2:35:03I'm still in a chat group. And Friday, I'm watching it. And they're like, pill horse are you there? And they're like, wait a minute. Now the affidavits are starting to come out. It says that there's a federal undercover agent that infiltrated the base. And they're like, who's a damn fed in here? And I'm just being quiet. And somewhere around 515, the leader of the base, he went by the moniker's Norman Spears and Roman Wolf. His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro. So you can let this sink in. Here's an American citizen born in America. Went to Villanova. Was in the army to monitor standing army, entail, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice.

2:35:44Now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia. And I guess he supposedly teaches English. They tried to say the base didn't have a leader. He's definitely the leader. Wow. And as a Russian family, so you can do your own speculation there. I'm not working that case anymore. How fucking crazy. Right. What was his red pill moment? Because clearly, if you look at his history, he was kind of on the liberal side. Something happened somewhere. And then he starts spewing crazy stuff. And then the base gets infiltrated by like journalist from vice. Well, then they tighten. Now every time the base got infiltrated, they tighten their opposite more and more.

2:36:20Every propaganda video we did, the rule was, it has to be better than the last one. Because we're trying to get everybody. And so I'm watching all this roll out. There's no way of feds in here. This that and the other blah, blah, blah. And then I see Roman finally respond around like five isch on Friday. And he's like, I'm not sure we could have found him. Because he was good. He attended every meeting, which I didn't. He said he attended every meeting, which maybe that should have been a red flag, but I didn't attend every training or meeting. And I'm like, okay, he's figured out it's me. And then he said something else.

2:36:54And then that was it. It says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf. So I screen shoted that and I sent it to all the case teams all over the United States and the headquarters FBI. And I said, and I'm out. Yeah, so they went down. That was a wild case. And if you want to get into like the effects on family and stuff, at that point, I mean, we're talking 2020. I started in 96 at a state and local level. But my wife, we were dating when I was in ARC. So she was kind of used to, hey, I went out and picked up some hookers and got some cocaine stuff. But clearly there were some very rough times, especially during that three year period around the outlaws.

2:37:33But it's not always easy. But what she says, because people always ask. And the spouses do not get enough credit at all. She's not law enforcement. She's not the essence of ties to my world. She used to freak out and be nervous when I'd going under covers. And what she would do is to help her cup, she moved furniture. I'd come home and up in the door and trip every stuff. I'm like, what in the, how did the couch get, who moved that refrigerator? You know crazy stuff. But one day, what she said, as she said, looks, she just had to give it up to God. She's like, I can see her in worry every day.

2:38:12And I'm going to, I'm going to kill myself worrying about it. But I essentially don't have control. I got to pray that you're good at what you do. And, you know, if it's your time to go, you can take me any time you want. But finishing the base case is the first time, like an idiot, I should have realized it. But I realized, after an undercover, I have to decompress. I have to kind of, okay, all right, and I get my mind all right. That's done, okay? So does she. And we were sitting out on the back porch. Having a, having an adult beverage. I might have been smoking the cigar. But she said something to the effect of, what, something I was at the base.

2:38:51And she was like, yeah, I was covering you in prayer. And I kind of giggled. And she's like, she looks at me. And I'm like, what? I mean, we've been doing this for a while, right? I mean, you don't, you don't have to be worried about me. We've been doing this a minute. She jerked a knot in my butt, man. She looked at me, it's starting. And she said, let me tell you something. You were my husband and I'm your wife. And it's my job to cover you. And when you're going on these things, I'm covering you. And I stopped smiling and I said, I greatly appreciate that. And I'm sorry if I insult the G, but thank you.

2:39:26Wow. Craziness. What a life you've had. Well, isn't brother, thank you very much for being here. It was great talking to you. Great hearing these stories. Fucking amazing. So insane. And so interesting. I do have a wacky one. I forgot. Another one? Yeah, you want a wacky? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a murder for hire, basically. It was, I got hired to do me and another task force officer who went with me on the undercover. Essentially, they thought we were bikers and they ended up hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people. Sure. So you want to talk about wacky people. Let's just towards the end of my career.

2:39:59Her name was Tammy. She gets in. It's all in the news and the court records. We go and we meet the husband. We thought the husband was the one who wants to get us. And we were like off a dirt road. It's pretty rough, man. Like I like walking up to the place. I'm like, hey, man, watch out. Sharp object, sharp object, T .B. Merse, the F .C. So we meet him and he's like, oh, that's really not my plan. It's my old lady's plan. I go, where's your old lady? Well, she's asleep. Will you wake her up? You want me to? I didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you if you're not planning it. I'm here to make money.

2:40:35So we pick her up. She comes out, gets in the truck. We start driving around looking at these locations. Where they wanted it because they knew some people that were dealing dope. They had the ends on where the guns and the money were. So they thought. And they wanted us to do the home invasions and kill them. But while we're riding around, she says, if you need somebody torture, I'm really good in torture. I love torture. I'm driving. She's in the passenger seat. Calling herself. She's weathered. Yeah, she's weathered. Twigging probably.

2:41:08This is how my mind works. So she's like, yeah, I'm in a torture. She goes, you know, that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man's penis and rip it back out. And then pour salt in the penis. One of the guys in the back of the truck are going, oh my gosh. What she didn't know was two weeks prior to that. I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion. That wasn't the problem. They messed up my profits and they had to dry calf me. So when she's talking about this hanger going in and out, I'm kind of feeling. I'm like, I think I know what the simmer to that.

2:41:43So she says that and then she says, yeah, and you can take a PVC pipe and you can run it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up it and rip it out. And we pull up to a red light and I lean over and I do. Why are you so angry? And she's like, oh, now I said, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? She's like, oh no, I'm too well known. But if you need some light torture, I can do it. Then on the next ride, or the ride into the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender and she told him never to do that again. Cocaine met something. She said cocaine, but he had been gone for three days.

2:42:15She couldn't find him. He comes home after being high three, four days and he crashes. She's so pissed at him. She tells us the story that he's naked. She takes a two by four shoves it under his back legs, takes an industrial stapler and staples his scrotum to the board. He didn't wake up. That's how down he was or his crash was. But when he did, he finds himself hooked to a board and he's screaming for help. And she wasn't helping. He had to call a friend to do it. So if you think the story's BS, if you think the story's BS, we confirmed it with a husband. He's like, oh yeah, yeah, she did it.

2:42:50I ain't never had no woman do nothing like that to me before. So my buddy in the back, he goes, you really don't like man, do you? And she's like, I've been unlucky and love. But in my head, that's when I'm looking over and I go, these are my people. This is my skill set. This is what I get. I don't get. I don't get Wall Street. Jesus Christ. So yeah, there's all kinds of stuff like that, man. Cut. Damn. That's a crazy life, brother. Yep. So now it's book. I still teach alert. Tell everybody the book. The book is codename pill horse. And it's how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis. But it's not just white supremacy.

2:43:33It's got the outlaws, it's got personal stuff, the life. There's murder for higher cases all in there, the pedophile stories in there, public corruption cases where I mean, some of the targets, I like, I got put in a corner. I underestimated. I'm dealing with a guy who's toozless, and a mountain backwards guy. And he beat me at chest that night. And I ended up with a bag of cocaine, open shoved in my face. He's got a stalled off shotgun, a red bone, hell's growling in my crotch. And he's like, if I find out you'd love you, dead man, do it if you're not a cop. I had to figure out a way to get out of that.

2:44:08You know, so there's stuff like that all in there. I bonded with that guy too. You know, that's part of your skill. And when somebody sent me his obituary, I felt sad. Wow. This is my last line from him. And you know, I think you're like, these are some of the people you deal with. He says, now Scott almost speed it up because he was on pills a lot. And he drank all day and did cocaine all day. So it was a constant battle of being pickled. But he's like, I think he died five years before I met him. I was like, I'm pretty sure it's the dope keeping him alive. I think he died. He just didn't know yet.

2:44:41But he would be like, now Scott, you know, I don't do cocaine anymore. I go, I know man. He goes, I used to do boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. I say, I know. And he pour cocaine his hand and goes, but this right here, that's just a bump. And I'm looking going, what? You just did cocaine and he said, you know, I don't sell cocaine anymore either. And I say, I know man, because I used to sell truckloads of it. I said, I know, I know you don't do it. Now, but if you need them five ounces, I can get them for you for this much money. And I'm like, I don't, that's the kind of stuff, man. You got to find him in that.

2:45:18But yeah, may he rest in peace. May he rest in peace. Well, thank you, Scott. Thank you for everything. That was a lot of fun. I really appreciate it. I appreciate you, man. And good luck on the book. I guarantee it's going to sell like crazy. One more time, Jamie throw that up there. So everybody can take a look at it. There it is. Co -dName Pale Horse. It's available now. Did you do an audiobook? Yes, I'm sorry. Thank you for saying that. It's my voice. Thank you. Yeah, it's my voice. Thank you. Actually, that was something I was told I needed to say. Has to. The so yeah, I've no offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or just mentor or people that have done it before me.

2:45:53But if I click on it and I hear there, I was in the basement. I'm like, what in the hell? It that has to be your person. So I read the book and then we'll see what happens as far as TV and stuff like that. I know I was going to want to do something. Yeah, I did. I've been on again, the tactical stuff. I've been an armor on on a movie sets in Tennessee and I actually did a camera. I got one in the movie world. I have one kill under my belt. All right. But that's the man. I'm just trying to pay it forward. Still trying to learn and still trying to do good things. Well, tell us a lot about this. I know something good is going to come out of this.

2:46:31Because the story is incredible. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thanks, Mother. Thanks for being here. All right. Bye, everybody.