#2314 - Hal Puthoff

30:51So one day, a guy shows up from CIA and says, okay. I'm here to find out what the fraud is. I'm sure this is absolute nonsense. He said, okay, fine. So show me one of your experiments. So, you know, we put him in the lab with an interviewer and another and a remote viewer. And in this case, I'm sent out someplace for 30 minutes. And I come... It turns out that the remote viewer described it really well. And he said, well, you probably told him where you're going to go. Let's do another experiment. And I'm going to go and we'll go on my car because you might have had a transmitter in your car or transmitting where you're going.

31:39So I'm going to pick the site. So we do another experiment. Get a great result. So, by, he says, well, I got to figure out what's wrong with this. So my colleague, Russell Targan, I sat down. This guy is a hard case, but we got the bell curve. Who knows? Maybe somewhere in the middle of the bell curve. So he comes in the next day and we say, okay, today you're going to be the remote viewer. And he said, give me a break. I don't believe in this BS. He said much more strongly than that, actually. And I say, no, no, okay, well, just try it. You'll see we're not stressing him out and whatever, whatever.

32:20And he says, okay. And when you go to your place, I want you to take pictures and do a recording. And when you come back, show me your stuff before I show you mine. Okay, fine. Well, it turned out we went to a playground with a merry -go -round. Meanwhile, back in the lab, he's drawing a picture of a playground with a merry -go -round. And he sees the results and he says, okay, you've convinced me. So it was that kind of thing that would push him over. Yeah, there's an example. Now, he misinterpreted what it was. He thought, made it. It was a cupila or whatever. But anyway, that's his drawing on the right and that's where we were on the left.

33:07And so he said, so he went back to CIA and said, okay, this stuff really works. And he became one of the star remote viewers over the years. Wow. So a skeptic became one of the remote viewers. Yep. Shoot in. What is the process? What is the process for a person to remote view? Is there a state that you have to go into? Is there a method to get into that state? There is a method and it's different from what you might think. You might think you would say to somebody, okay, we've got somebody to decide kind of imagine where they are and see what it looks like and tell us what you find and all that kind of stuff.

33:44They're usually wrong when they do that because their imagination comes into play and they make up something or whatever. But what we found out in the research, it took years and a lot of trials, what is that you get a visceral response to a site. It's not that you get necessarily get an image. So in fact, we told them, you know, if you get an image, just put it down the right hand side of the paper because it's probably wrong. Instead, just kind of put down your feelings as you get into the site and so, you know, if it's like water, they might do ways or if it's a mountain peak, they might as Jacques described in one of your previous broadcasts a mountain peak and they just feel like drawing something like that.

34:28So bit by bit, the process is very much a visceral feeling process and so the training procedure has them sitting with pads of paper and just making sketches and drawings and not trying to interpret what it is. And also being very, not in a rush about it, it's sort of like you've got a door and you drill a hole through and then drill another hole through and another hole through and then finally the door crumbles and then you've got a pretty good feeling for what the site is. So, so the process that we use to train people involves this multi stage process where there to go by feelings, colors, flashes of things.

35:16You see a flash of piece of metal. Don't try to turn it into a car or a bicycle or whatever. So there's a whole training procedure that we develop. And eventually when we briefed the assistant chief staff for intelligence, assistant director of intelligence for the army, they said, okay, well, then we need to have our people get involved in learning how to do this. And so they said, Army intelligence officers, they picked out a bunch of them and said, hey, you've just volunteered to become a psychic spy and say, well, okay. And they sent them out to SRI and we ran them through this step by step training procedure.

35:59And they learned to do really, really well. I mean, Joe McMonagall, who anyone who follows a literature is known to be a brilliant, excellent room up your. And so, give an example. One time he said, I mean, we trained them and so they learned to do really well. We set up a whole program. And he said, okay, there's this site in the Soviet Union and they're making this unbelievably giant submarine. And it's made out of titanium or something. I mean, it's bigger than any submarine that anybody has ever heard of. And it's strange because the missile silos are on the top rather than along the sides.

36:49And so I give this whole description. Of course, we had that time we were briefing all the way up to National Security Council. So they looked at this. This is nonsense. But about a month later, out rolls this unbelievably giant sub to the Typhoon class submarine, the largest submarine ever made. Indeed, there are his sketches and a lot of description went along with his sketches. And there's a submarine on the right. And so finally, the people of National Security Council said, okay, we better start taking this seriously. So make a long story short. He eventually, Joe McNamara, got a National Merit Award for over 200 great viewings he did for CIA, National Security Council, FBI.

37:41I mean, you name it. So anyway, thank you for doing a whole industry. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. If you're anything like me, you love your dog. You want what's best for your furry pal, but figuring out what that is can be a real headache. There's a lot of misinformation out there, especially around dog food. Take Kibble, for example. Almost everyone has probably fed their dog Kibble at some point. But if you do a little digging, you may find out how ultra processed it is. Luckily, there's a better option for you out there. There's a real food from people who care about what goes into your dog's body, like the farmer's dog.

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39:04Look, no one dog or human should be eating overly processed foods for every meal. And it doesn't matter how old your dog is. It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. So try the farmer's dog today. You can get 50 % off your first box of fresh, healthy food at the farmer's dog dot com slash Rogan plus you get free shipping. Just go to the farmer's dog dot com slash Rogan tap the banner or visit this episodes page to learn more offer applicable for new customers only. So this is still kind of a mystery even to you, even someone who has studied this for this long, you know that it works, but you're not exactly sure how it's working.

39:50Is that a fair assessment? That's a fair assessment. I mean, when we as physicists, we hate to say, don't have a clue. So well, we now know there's so called quantum entanglement, which is that things are seem to be connected at a quantum level across great distances. And so the easy answers will must be quantum entanglement, but you know, that didn't that's just words. It doesn't really tell us how it works, but but the giving example, we wondered how far you could go. So we did an experiment again with Angus Swan, who was such a really top level, remote viewer, to view Jupiter, planet Jupiter before the fly by before the NASA fly by.

40:41And so he did and he described Jupiter the way anybody might, you know, red spot and all that kind of stuff. But he said, but, but there's a thin ring around Jupiter. I wonder if I went to Saturn by mistake, but I really see a ring around Jupiter. I'm nobody knew about any ring around Jupiter. Carl Sagan happened to come by in the lab and said, no, what do you think of this? We got this result. Just ring around Jupiter. That's nonsense. But when the NASA fly by finally got there, it turned out there was a ring, small ring around Jupiter. And so we got that in publication in a book we wrote about all this stuff before it was known in the scientific community.

41:26So that's what we find out that the apparently even distances is not a big deal. The other thing, the other thing we wondered, I can tell you what it isn't. We thought maybe it was brain waves. The Russians came up with an idea of well, brain waves, low frequency, long wavelength. They can seemingly get through some aspects of the environment. So we came up with a series of experiments and one of them was, okay, let's put our remote viewers on submarines. Take them to the, into the depths of the ocean because it turns out sea water is highly conductive. And so at even at low frequencies, even at brain wave frequencies, it would be a complete shield for that.

42:21So we, we piggybacked on somebody else's experiments, Steven Schwartz's experiments using remote viewers to go find archeological wrecks and ship wrecks and so on, which turned out to eventually be a successful experiment. But anyway, we got to do two experiments. We got pristine results, even with them under there, under the ocean water. So we know it's not ordinary electromagnetic functioning. So we can strike one thing off the list, not that we know what to put on the list in its place. Other than, you know, it's got to be some new fields, some quantum aspect that we don't understand yet. We don't understand, but yet you could repeat it.

43:06But we could repeat it. Now, I'll give you another example of the skepticism that we got. And by the way, I can't blame them. We had some psychologists at SRI. And they said, you've got that stupid ESP experiment stuff going on. You know, this is going to ruin our reputation. People think that we're, you know, we're a nonsense place. And so it's hurting our reputation. Of course, they didn't know it was a highly classified CIA program. So anyway. So our director said, well, what do you think? I mean, how would you know if this is false or whatever? And he said, look, make a list of all experiments, places that have been investigated, gone to as targets.

43:57And then give us the transcripts that were generated for those viewings. And don't tell us which ones go with which ones. And we'll try to rank them for each place. And so they did that much to their sugar and seven of the nine were first place matches in a nine experiment series. Give you another example of, in by the way, I can't complain about the skepticism. I mean, even as we're doing all this, we haven't lost our skepticism about how, how could this be. But we finally, we got into a spot where the only thing it was secret about this program was that it was secret. But people heard that we had these people coming in and doing experiments, but we weren't publishing anything.

44:53So I went to the CIA contract and mine said, you know, you've got to let us publish something because the only thing secret about this project is as a secret project. So if we publish something, that'll handle that. Did you want to do that to get more scientists involved? Yes, that was our personal aspect. So that if there was actual data, more people who were on the outside skeptical would say, well, hold on, why am I skeptical? Maybe perhaps there's something to this. And then you start considering your own life. These moments of intuition, weird coincidences, you're thinking about someone they call you.

45:28We all have this idea that there's something there, but we don't know what it is. But we're very skeptical if someone tells us that they can do it. And that's reasonable to think that way. Right. So in this case, where we got permission to publish something, since we're engineers, Russell Tarr, my colleague and I, or engineers and physicists, we wrote it up for the proceedings, the IEEE Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers. It's an engineering journal where we had published technical papers. So it's like, well, we have a better chance there. Send it off to them. The editor was head of communications at Bell Labs.

46:10And he comes back and says, well, I don't know. And we said, why are you getting bad reviews? And he says, well, actually, I'm getting good reviews. But one really heavy hitter just gave me a one sentence review saying, this is the kind of thing I wouldn't leave in even if it were true. What is that? So anyway, we said, look, I understand your problem. Look, let us come and present this stuff to your engineers. If they throw tomatoes, okay, don't publish our paper. But if they like it, then publish it. So we went to Bell Labs, presented our data. The engineers were all excited, trying to figure out what the mechanism could be and so on.

46:50So we figured we were home free. He said, nah, I still... So then we pull out our Trump card, as always, which is, okay, look. Do your own experiments at Bell Labs? Pick people from your engineers. Pick people from your offices to make up lists of targets. Pick people here to be your blind match group to see if they can match them up. And if you get results like we got, then publish it. If you don't, don't, you said, okay, that's fair. So it turns out he did the whole thing. Got the same kind of results we got. Our paper got published 1976, proceedings, the IEEE. And so that suddenly got other people saying, okay, well, maybe there really is something to this.

47:43So it turns out that for those who followed the field know that Robert John and Brenda Donne, Robert John was ahead of engineering at Princeton. He had a student who wanted to do these kind of experiments and he thought it was nonsense, but they came out and heard our briefing and he went back long story short. You set up a, I don't know, 20 year program, completely replicating our remote viewing work and also doing effects on random number generators that were quantum driven. And so, so the so -called parallel Princeton engineering anomalies research lab replicated all over work. And so pretty soon, it's all over the place.

48:28So by the way, at the end of the sort of cold war there where there was a datarunt, some of our remote viewers went over to Russia to talk to their remote viewers and they traded war stories. They lived through the same kind of thing. So there it is. It's so interesting that we almost didn't consider that. Just imagine you not running into Angoswan, you not asking him to affect that quantum chip. Imagine where Russia is doing all this stuff and the United States never gets involved in it at all. That could have happened. That could have happened. I mean, it was really, you know, the tiniest flip of a coin that that happened.

49:17So, so what that means is for me personally is that even though I had no interest in all that kind of stuff, this totally random event happened. And then once I've built up a reputation for being willing to take on things that are impossible, then that's why when the UAP, the UFO issue kind of rose up again. Who you're going to call? So, I'll put up. I'll put up. I get my call. So what was the initial introduction to the UAP phenomenon? And when was this? This episode is brought to you by Farmer's Dog. It doesn't matter how old your dog is. It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness.

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50:37And with the Farmer's Dog, it isn't. The entire experience from box to bowl is a breeze. So try the Farmer's Dog today and give healthy, freshly made food a try. You can get 50 % off your first box of food plus free shipping. Just go to the Farmer's Dog .com slash Rogan. Tap the banner or visit this episodes page to learn more, offer available for new customers only. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Have you ever been shopping online and the website just gave you the egg? Let me tell you that wouldn't happen if they used Squarespace. Squarespace design intelligence empowers anyone to build beautiful, more personalized websites tailored to your unique needs.

51:24And with Squarespace payments, it's super easy to manage payments with just a few clicks. Plus with Squarespace's integrated and optimized SEO tools, there's all the help you need to get people to your site. Head to Squarespace .com slash Emma for a free trial and use code Emma to save 10 % on your first purchase. Well, there was an early introduction in 2004.

51:54Well, maybe a little earlier in the 90s, I was doing work for Robert Bigelow at Bigelow Aerospace. And in addition to his aerospace stuff, he put two units circling the earth and he made the module he got attached to the space station and all that kind of stuff. But he was also very much interested in UFOs and that kind of thing. And so I was involved with him. And around that time I had gotten a call from somebody I knew in Washington DC head of a think tank. I can't name him, but he said, I need you to come to Washington to be part of a little project, a little briefing. And I said, no, I don't have the time.

52:51Right now I'm just too busy. He says, look, come and it will be the most important meeting you've ever had in your life. Well, since I had him calibrated because I had done other work with him and for the Navy and so on, I said, OK, I'll come. So I showed up there. And I saw people, some of whom I knew, including my ex contract monitor from CIA, people from DIA, a lot of military people and so on. So he said, it's all down and he said, OK, here's the deal. Here's why I've invited you all here.

53:37Let's just say, he says, that the United States, Russia and China have obtained ET craft that have crashed. And we have proof of that. Bodies that aren't human. And so the question is, can this be released to the public? What effect would it have? So I and the other people I found out my talk to him later, we thought, oh, this is cool. I mean, maybe we can get some kind of disclosure here. And so he said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to make up a list of what would be affected in the culture with this kind of a disclosure. And by the way, at this point, we still didn't know, is he saying that that's true stuff or is he this hypothetical or anyway.

54:44So make a list. So we came up with a long list, like I don't know, 60 items or something. He said, oh, well, stock market might be affected. Religious might be affected. You know, whatever government government effect that policies be affected. Politics would certainly be affected. And then for each item, we had to go give it a score from plus nine to minus nine, as to how intense the effect would be and where this positive or negative. So we broke up into groups and our group had our list of eight or so. So we went down our list and it turned out that we ended up saying getting negative numbers.

55:33And let me tell you why you can get negative numbers. One of the things down toward the bottom of the list, I'm really going into the weeds, was well, suppose materials from a crash retrieval of a non -human craft was given to court. So we had a corporation A, but corporation B didn't get any samples. And then years later, corporation A is making lots of money based on what they got. Meanwhile, corporation B has gone bankrupt and then they find out they were excluded. Well, they're going to end up suing the corporations, suing the government. I mean, it really gets gnarly when you get into the weeds and into the details.

56:17And so as it turns out, with our group of eight or so, we said, you know, this, we get a negative number. Well, it turned out that all the groups got negative numbers. So the outcome of that exercise was, if you're thinking about disclosure, forget it. Was this during George Herbert Walker Bushes? No, it was during Bush to George Bush, rather. George Bush W. So when this was all going on, you still didn't know what they had. Didn't know what they had. This was just, they were saying this could be apathetical or trying to tell us something, but he wouldn't say. Interesting. And how long, how much time did they give you to compile this list and to generate these numbers of plus and minus?

57:04Two or three days, I don't recall right now. How did you attribute numbers to things like the stock market? How did you figure out how that would be negatively or positively? Well, you know, it was just a gut response, basically. You remote viewed it. No, didn't do that. No, wait, did you? By the way, in the remote viewing program, one of the things they told us, look, you guys that are running this program, don't you ever think about remote viewing yourself? We learned in the LSD days that if the experimenters get involved in the subject that are researching, they lose their objectivity. And don't think you can sneak away and get away with it because we'll get you on the polygraph and so on.

57:47So no, never, never, never do that. Well, what a bizarre thing to tell somebody. That's what they, that's what they said. So anyway, but anyway, back, back to this. So we came up with our numbers and said, you know, this does not look like a good idea. So at that time, that, that was the viewpoint. Now, as we'll get into it, at this point, I have a different viewpoint. I think there should be more disclosure than is apparent. Well, I think that's, that's much more common. Much more common. That thought is more, more common with not just academics, but even government people. Even government people.

58:27I think more impact I have, I have a great example of that. That is Edward Teller, father of the H bomb, involved in the Manhattan Project. You think if anybody wanted to keep secrets about national security, it would be him. Well, one of the strongest statements he made, which actually was kind of a driver in my shifting my viewpoint about, well, should we come out with this or not? He said, you know, in exploring nuclear energy, we had the Manhattan Project, highly classified. But nonetheless, we in the Russians kind of marched along step by step. But in electronics, we didn't classify electronics, circuit boards and all that kind of stuff.

59:17And we took off like a rocket and left Russia in the dust. So his viewpoint was that having more openness, even in national security areas, is a better bet. And so that made me think, even though I've been part of, as it turns out, decades long, highly classified, not for the street, UAP investigations. That sort of affected my thinking about it. And I became more open to the idea that, you know, we should do that. But the way I got actually more officially involved was that, as it turns out, in 2008, I think it was Harry Reid, who was at the time Senate Majority Leader, Daniel Inuay from Hawaii, Ted Stevens from Hawaii, from Alaska.

1:00:16They're part of the gang of eight, so -called. So they get better briefings than most people on what's going on beyond the scenes. So at that point, you might think, well, UFO stuff, I mean, that's all dead. Let me give you a little background first. And that is, you know, back in the 50s and 60s, we had Project Sign, Project Grudge, Project Blue Book. And then they had the Condon Committee at University Colorado, examined the area and say, he came out with this saying, saying, there's nothing here. It's not worth the Air Force, paying any time on it. Actually, the Condon Report, if you read it, there's a deep report showing all kinds of reasons why this is real.

1:01:05And then there's the Forward, which most media read, and which he said, oh, nothing here, don't worry about it. So after 1969, which is when that report came out, if you called Air Force Public Affairs Office and said, well, what's going on with UFOs? They said, oh, no, no, we give up all that stuff back in 1960s. The truth of matter is that the very memo that canceled Blue Book by General Bollander had down the fine print, but anything that might affect national security, we should keep track of. So now we come up to 2017, these senators who knew that there was still stuff going on decided there should be a new program.

1:01:54And so they asked the top physicist at DIA, Jim Lekatsky, who was one of the top physicists on propulsion and rocketry, and so on. To put out a request for proposal. And so that went out, and so actually Robert Bigelow picked it up. And he said, okay, we'll do this. And so he then got the program. And since I'd been involved with Bigelow, he asked me to be part of the program. So that's when I got, you might say, officially involved in really digging into the issue. And what was your perspective at that point? So you had this thing during the George Bush administration. And what was your perspective after that conversation?

1:02:45Did you think what maybe they do have something, the crash Roswell side, maybe something else? Did you know more from other talking to other people? Had you heard whispers? Like what did you know? What I knew was not much. I mean, I heard whispers, but I didn't get really involved in thinking about it. I mean, you know, a good physicist realizes this is 10 -4 -hour hat conspiracy stuff, you know. But you had already had experience with remote viewing. Yeah, so I'm already, I'm already got that problem.

1:03:25So, but when they came up with the idea, we should do another deeper dive into this. And by that time I was, you know, I mean, as a physicist, I mean, through the years, I mean, I was a Star Trek fan and you know, Star Trek fan and all that kind of stuff. And as a physicist, I would hear about these UFO sightings and so on. So I always wondered about, you know, how can this, you know, could somebody really have any kind of propulsion that would look like that? So anyway, so when this program got set up, it turned out my particular assignment was, okay, let's look at all the physics and engineering that might be behind this stuff.

1:04:20And by the way, we will arrange for you to get access to some materials. Okay, fine. So that was my tasking and so I said, okay. So I can't get into a lot of detail, but I did do a lot of back and forth with some aerospace executives about getting access in case they had any materials and that kind of stuff. So they finally said, no, if that were the case, it would be too compartmentalized. We can't share this. Even though you have an official program, I mean, you got top secret, SCI, gamma, HCS, you got all these clearances. But if we had materials, it would be too highly classified. We couldn't share them.

1:05:14So a lot of negotiation went on. I spent a lot of time with the vice president. Unless there's something to negotiate about. Exactly. If there's nothing to negotiate about, you'd say, how, we don't have materials. You wouldn't say you don't have enough clearance for us to even discuss this. Exactly. And sorry they're tipping their hat. They're already tipping their hat. So anyway, the second place to go then was, okay, they're not going to share their material. I'm almost assuredly have them. Suppose they had shared them. What would we have done? Well, we would have gone to subject matter experts all around the world.

1:05:59We'd give them some materials. We'd say, you know, this came from a Russian sub or whatever. Give us your best output and so on. So I said, okay, since we're not able to get materials and share them.

1:06:19Let me go to all of the subject matter experts that we would have gone to and say, we're doing a survey for Bigelow Aerospace. He wants to know where your field be in the year 2050. So we figured, okay, we'd get the best sort of assessment of possible futures for their fields. And I realize you probably don't have immediate access to this. But just to give you an idea, some of the papers that we got by going out to these people, and you'll see how serious we were, a new tronic fusion propulsion, superconductors and gravity research, positron aerospace propulsion, warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, advanced nuclear propulsion.

1:07:15Jamie's got it up here. So this is just the first few of 38 papers that I arranged for leaders to come up with. So this is based on projections from where technology currently sits to, if you extrapolate where it's going to be in 2050, based on what they're working on. So by time metric engineering, traversable wormholes, stargates. So you see, we weren't getting around. Well, when you started getting the warp drive, dark energy, extra dimensions, brain machine interfaces. Now, did you ask any of these, so presumably, this is just me from a civilian's perspective. Presumably, you have some sort of a crash thing.

1:08:03You have to bring in people who make spaceships. You have to bring in people who make military jets, advanced propulsion systems. Those are the people that would be able to back it up. Working on those papers, where are people from those communities? How did they, this is the conundrum that if they did disclose, and the companies that weren't given access to these materials did fall apart, and that the companies that got access to these materials advanced and had spectacular businesses. How do they decide who, it just assuming you would have something? How would you decide? Was it based on relationships?

1:08:49Knowing that someone could keep a secret? Because you're dealing with outside the government now, presumably, if you have a defense contractor, that's an independent company. Not necessarily, even though they work hand in glove with the government, they're not necessarily a part of the government. In fact, if you put your thinking cap on, you would say, this would be the way if you want to keep it out of the public. Because you don't have to disclose it. You don't have to give it to a contractor. This is your stuff. From now on, you own it. How do you control that, though? You don't have to have government agents embedded deeply, which I assume they do anyway.

1:09:34But you'd have to have intelligence agents deeply embedded in these defense contractors, where they would make sure that they maintain some sort of intense level of secrecy. That's exactly right. And when you think about, okay, these days, we'll suppose we have some kind of disclosure.

1:10:00What are these companies going to do? They've been hiding things or various parts of the government, been hiding things. Misappropriating funds, lying to Congress. You can see why it's such a big problem at this point. Well, that was that disclosure documentary that I saw you in as well that appeared at South by Southwest, which is excellent. What is it called? It's called The Age of Disclosure. Amazing documentary. It's amazing documentary. Really hope that gets released somewhere big, like Netflix or something like that. I think Dan Farrah, who's the director and producer of that, by the way, a very well -known producer.

1:10:41He collaborated with Steven Spielberg on Ready Player One, which is the big hit and so on. And the approach he used, which is really very clever, he contacted people like me, people like Lou Elizando, on and on and on. And said, you know, many of you don't want to come out really and reveal too much podcasts by podcasts by podcasts. So tell you what, my goal, he says, I'm going to approach 38 of the maximum insiders. And by maximum insiders, I mean, and includes people like, Senator Rubio, Secretary of State, Clapper, who's, you know. And I'm going to get all of you to collaborate on saying what your involvement was to the degree you can and, you know, not say something and end up going to jail.

1:11:45And then we'll put out maximum disclosure evidence all at one time in this film. And it'll include people coming forward like Jay Stratton, who was head of the UAP Task Force. He's been involved in this field for 16 years. By the way, he has a book about to come out also, which will really be a disclosure. So anyways, we'll put this together. We won't talk about it along the way. And so 38 of us ended up being interviewed for the film, telling whatever role we felt we could tell. So in fact, when that film comes out, that's going to be disclosure on steroids, I think. That's going to be the maximum and what you saw the film.

1:12:38So you know, it's pretty, pretty revealing. It's very well done. So for your own personal journey into this stuff, you're initially introduced to it because they're talking about disclosure. You rate the pros and cons. And then when do you get introduced to it again? America's beverage companies are investing in America. We're American companies making American products with American workers in America's hometowns. We're local bottlers and manufacturers operating in all 50 states, employing more people. More than 275 ,000 Americans in good paying jobs delivering for the nation because we believe in the promise of America and the people who make it great.

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1:14:36Just go to SimplySafe .com -rogan. That's 50 % off with your first month free at SimplySafe .com -rogan. There's no safe, like SimplySafe. Well, that was when, basically, when Robert Bigelow got the contract that Harry Reid and the other senators asked how much time has passed? Well, that was in 2008, so a couple. That went up through 2012, and then A -TIP, which you may have heard of, that Louis Ando Ray, and sort of picked up there to keep the ball rolling forward. And now it's been revealed, by the way, only recently, that when the funding dried up, it dried up for the reasons you might think of, and that is it was so highly classified, that when congressional statements came down that, okay, we need so much money for this, it didn't actually describe it with just advanced propulsion and all that kind of stuff.

1:15:47So another group picked up the money and said, oh, well, that's what we're working on propulsion things, so, you know, but it wasn't the real deal. And so, you know, what do you do at that point? Do you go, no, wait a minute, this was really for this? Well, then you'd be revealing what this was really for. So anyway, that sort of ended that way. But anyway, so based on that, we then, as a group, went to, as it turns out, the Department of Homeland Security to set up a whole new program. And it was going to be a special access program. It was under a name which can now be revealed because, arrow, advanced aerospace, let's see, advanced anomalies, aerospace resolution office has revealed it.

1:16:40It was called Kona Blue. And we built up a stack of documents that would go to the ceiling here about what needed to be done, what we were going to do, how it should be done, who should be involved. So at this point, you're convinced that this is a real phenomenon. At this point, I'm convinced that there's a real phenomenon. I mean, you know, how far can I go? I mean, I can say, I interacted with, for example, Dave Grush, that you've had on your program before, who is really a high level intelligence officer. People in the public can hardly have any idea how high a level intelligence officer he was.

1:17:22He prepared briefings for the president. He was a top UAP investigator for NRO, the National Reconnaissance Office, and then transferred over to NGA, National Geospatial Intelligence Office. And so in that role, he was asked, he was an official part of the UAP Task Force, asked by Jay Stratton to find out what's going on behind the scenes at these superclassified levels, and he did. And so that's why, you know, he eventually came out in that August 2023 congressional hearing under oath, saying, yep, I've talked to more than 40 people who are directly involved in the program. Well, I know Dave, I know many of the people, I know many of the programs that he's involved in.

1:18:18And so there really is something to it, and it's only a matter of time before it comes out. I don't think, I don't think he can put the toothpaste back into the tube. Well, it seems like people don't want to. And I think there's so many more people that are openly discussing the possibility or what this is, maybe not even the possibility of it, but addressing that there's something going on. So what is it? Is it interdimensional? Is it degalactic? Like what is it? That's just such an excellent question. Because the problem is there's an embarrassment of riches. These craft, you know, which in the old days, you know, farmer in the fields, that someone's streaking across the sky, and you know, I don't know what to think, you know, you could sort of blow it off.

1:19:10But because our own detection equipment has really marched up into unbelievable sophistication. And so now we have these really advanced sensor systems, a clear, forward looking infrared radar, high quality radars, satellites, rat cliff has admitted, that satellites have picked up evidence of these craft, and these craft have interfered with military exercises, as we all know from, say, the Nimitz and the Kimbonli Go Fast videos, and you know, made it out into the public in 2017.

1:20:00So it's really out there now at this point, that there's a reality here. And so that's where we are at this point. Well, one and more spectacular ones, you talked about the Nimitz, the Commander David Fraver experience. So they're flying over the water outside of San Diego. And they think they see something below the surface, which is large, and then this 20 -foot tick -tack -looking thing that's hovering over the water, that seems to turn towards them and recognize that they're, it jams their radar, it does something to block their ability to detect it, they have it on screen, they have video of this thing, there's eyewitnesses of this thing, they track it on radar going from above 50 ,000 feet down to sea level in a second.

1:20:59They don't know what it is, it takes off at an insane rate of speed, it goes to the cat point where they're supposed to meet up. So they have all this data about this thing that behaves in a way that's impossible with our current understanding of propulsion systems. Right. And of course, in the program, we interviewed the pilots about their experiences and so on. And so you can't blame a pilot, he says, look, this thing was at 80 ,000 feet or whatever, and he first detected it, suddenly it's down there, right above the water, and then it takes off and does a right angle turn at Mach 3, you know, this stuff is just way beyond our physics.

1:21:40Of course, to a physics nerd like me, wait a minute, if it's real, it's physics. Right, it can't be beyond our understanding. But it's beyond our engineering. So in fact, in that series of papers, I showed you that the 38 papers, by the way, there's a little side story there, it's interesting. And those 38 papers were then posted, none of these people who generated those papers had any idea it had to do with ETs or UFOs or whatever. They all went up on what's called the J -Wick server, it's a classified server for the Pentagon, and intelligence officers and aerospace contractors could get access, but nobody in the public could.

1:22:26And usually those things go up and they're up for a little while, a month or so, and they take them down. This was such a popular set, this 38 paper, such a popular set, that everybody screamed. Every time they tried to take it down, and so it was posted there, right, forever. But eventually, through FEMA Reimformation Act and so on, most of those papers have been released. And I was concerned that, oh my God, these guys are all going to call me up and say, what, you didn't tell me this had anything to do with ETs or UFOs, but actually nobody seemed to, yeah, not complained about it. So back to the question that you mentioned a little earlier, though, about, you know, what's the source of this?

1:23:12Like I said, an embarrassment of riches, there's so much observation. You know, the idea that it may be a scout coming by from some other planet and checking us out and heading off or whatever, I mean, there's much more than that. And of course, as you know, from interviewing Jacques Vallay, he dug into literature and found out, you know, you can go back millennia and see descriptions of exactly what we're doing. Talk about the day. So, as far as where they come from, what they're doing here, I myself have written a paper called Ultra Trustials, where I try to cover the gamut. And I cover everything.

1:24:01Yeah, they could be spacecraft from some other galaxy, whipping through here. Or maybe there's some Atlanteans left over from Eons ago, and they're just kind of hiding out in the sea bed or in some mountain range someplace. Or maybe some ET group showed up here, a thousand, two thousand, three thousand years ago, and they're hiding out with some bases locally and so on. And of course, we have a professor with their masters who thinks that well, maybe it's time travelers from the future coming back. And then there's the whole idea since physicists like to talk about additional dimensions, maybe they come from another.

1:24:47So anyway, then in my Ultra Trustials paper, I list everyone I can think of and say, you know, we should be exploring all of these. So at this point, I would say, we know it's in H .I., nonhuman intelligence, but it's not clear what the source is. Maybe at a higher level of classification than I had access to, and maybe it's known, but right now I'd say we don't know. Do you have a suspicion?

1:25:20I guess my suspicion that it's likely nonhuman intelligence from some other galaxy or far out in our own galaxy that have come here with some time back and that there are stations here. You know, I mean, one of our remote viewers that was really good came up one day and said, I was looking around and I think I found a UFO base on Earth. This is during the remote viewing era and, you know, oh my God, I've got to report this to my CIA contract monitor and do what I wanted to do on that. So I did and one of the places he came up with some, but one of the places he came up with was Mount Zeal in Australia.

1:26:23And so my CIA contract monitor says, well, I know the CIA station keeper out in Australia, I think I'll call him and I won't tell him why I'm asking, but I'll ask him about Mount Zeal area. So he gave him a call and he said, I'd like to ask you about that Mount Zeal area. He says, oh, you mean with the UFOs Roy's flying around. So I thought, oh gee, you know, so anyway, this is from Pat Price. I take him seriously. Let me give you an anecdote. I mean, I know it's hard to believe that this, some of this stuff could possibly be real. Here was a real game changer for me. One day Pat Price during the remote viewing program came in the office and he said, I got bored last night.

1:27:12So I started looking around and I decided to look at the Oval Office. And as I kind of did my way around the Oval Office, I realized there's something in the Oval Office that will harm him and he will not get through his second term. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my God, you know, I have to report that to the CIA contract, which I did. And so they sent a team over looking for, you know, hidden microwaves, hidden toxic substances when they didn't come up with anything. And of course, as we now know from history, it was the tape recorder that did a man. And he couldn't make it through the second term because he says during the Nixon administration.

1:28:01Yeah, Nixon administration. So interesting enough, when he reported that, that's, oh my God, that means spiral Agna will be president because he was the vice president. And he says, no, he goes first. Now, it turned out he did go first because of some money laundering scheme. So when I sit down and try to say, okay, what are the statistics of having somebody see that a president is going to make it through his next term. And his vice president is not going to take over because he goes first. I mean, the odds of that, I mean, there's just no doubt that that that means it's really something. Well, especially when you consider Nixon was one of the most popularly elected presidents ever.

1:28:48Right. I mean, he won by an enormous margin. That was the whole where the vice presidents or the other candidates vice president had electroshock therapy that hadn't been revealed. Yeah, right. Yeah. And it turned out people were very concerned that he was mentally ill, but it was too late to replace them. They didn't know what to do. They finally replaced them, but it was too late. That's right. I remember that. Yeah. That was a big part of the whole thing. So now one thing you may be surprised to learn you've asked me from time to time, or you know, what did I think as I'm facing into all this stuff.

1:29:28We obviously as physicists think about time going forward, reasonable way. And as I mentioned, the Princeton lab got involved. Robert John at Princeton was very good in quantum theory and so on. And he knows it in quantum theory. Time is kind of a slippery slope. You know, we have the space time metric and the possibility of maybe seeing something in the future or something in the past. And so he did a series of remote viewing experiments very much like like what we were doing, but sometimes he would have somebody go to a site and then wait a week and have somebody describe where the person went or he might have somebody describe where a person went, but the person didn't go until a week later.

1:30:20And so he did a lot of experiments, which by the way, we're good enough. He also got to publish in the proceedings of the IEEE Institute of Electronics and Engineers a couple years after our paper, like 78 or so. And so it turned out that the results either looking a bit in the future, a bit into the past, didn't the results were just as good. So that sort of helped solve another problem for us because we were always, I mean, I can't blame the skeptics coming forward. In fact, our favorite phrase is, as far as remote viewing goes, there are two outcomes. People investigate it, know it works, people who don't and know it can't.

1:31:08So anyway, you know, a big thing that we always got pushed on was, if these people were so psychic, why aren't they rich? Why aren't they less vagus? Why aren't they doing silver futures or whatever? So it turned out I had a chance to test that because as it turns out, my wife, Adrian Kennedy was on the board of a new grammar school that was being set up in the Bay Area where we were at the time. And so I was trying to raise money because they were about $25 ,000 short. And so I went to a wealthy dentist I knew of and said, you know, would you mind giving $25 ,000 for this school that's just being set up or short?

1:31:58And he says, no way, but I know who you are. You have that ESP program over at SRI, don't you? And I said, yeah. And he said, tell you what, I do silver futures. If you can get your ESP people to tell me what's happening each day, the next day in silver futures, I will follow what you tell me.

1:32:22And I'll bet on it. And see if I make money based on that and tell you what, whatever money I get, I'll give your school 10 % of what I make. And don't worry if I lose money I won't charge you. So anyway, that was interesting. Well, by now in the program, we recognize that, okay, there's the bell curbs or everybody can do it to some degree. So I simply went to the board of directors of the school and said, we're going to go into silver futures to make our missing $25 ,000. But I'm not going to ask you what you think the market's going to do the next day because that will depend on what you've read or what you hope for or whatever whatever.

1:33:07We're going to do something different. I'm going to pick a couple of objects. Objects that are very different from each other. I'm going to label one of them, mark it up. I'm going to label the other one, mark it down. And I want you to describe to me today the object I'm going to show you tomorrow, which will depend on what the market does. And so, okay, and for Crash Course, I gave this short inversion of how, you know, don't try to image it. Just try to get, it's a visceral thing. How do you feel about it? What's the sort of texture of it and so on? And Jamie, can you can you pull up that first of the, it shows the figure, wouldn't figure in and the tape measure.

1:34:06If you could show that, yeah. So on a given day, I have two objects. And of course, they're different as they can be in case you get a lousy description or whatever. So on a given day, that's a couple of objects I picked out and I labeled the one to myself. I labeled the one on the left, mark it up. The one on the right, mark it down. But they have no idea what my objects are. So the next day, you're getting a following slide.

1:34:40Do you have the following slide? I have a previous slide. Yeah. Is that it? What are you looking for? That's it. Okay. And so, I had seven viewers and on this particular day, five of them didn't turn out much. But one of the viewers said, I've got something all squirrel up in a can, all wound around. And I hear the words one, two, three said rhythmically. Taper. The second guy, same thing. I can't, all something all the other. So that's what I go. Anyway, make a long story short. 30 days in the market. We made $260 ,000 for the investor. We got our 10%, which is $26 ,000. So you got a bit of a bonus there for the school.

1:35:26Why didn't you guys keep going to get rich? Well, that I know. Everybody asked me that. The truth matter, it was, it was almost a 24 hour day job to do this. And meanwhile, we're back over at the lab training Army intelligence, remote viewers, how to, how to remote viewers. So, clearly that wasn't your ambition. Your ambition might not get rich. But you proved your point. I proved my point. So now, when going into the future, you're, you're reasonably certain that these things, this is a real phenomenon. Do you ever get access to these materials that you were discussing earlier? Have you ever seen anything?

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1:37:25Liam Neeson is Frank Treben, Jr. son of the celebrated police squad lieutenant from the original films. Let's just say you've never seen Neeson like this. Nor Pamela Anderson or Paul Walter Hauser. A must watch on the big screen The Naked Gun only in theaters August 1st. Yes, I have. One example I can talk about. One sample I can talk about is. Are the things you can't talk about? There are things I can't talk about. There's one sample I can talk about which you could put up on the screen. That would be that. This right here. That's right here. Yeah, right. Turns out that an army person said that his grandfather had been involved in picking up debris from the police.

1:38:13He was the first to pick up debris from the Roswell crash.

1:38:17And so he sent it. Of all places, he sent it to Art Bell. Of the radio podcast, the great Art Bell. So Art Bell turned it over to Linda, how, Linda, Linda. So she's, you know, he got it. So she said she'd make it available and so on. So about this time, I had already had my viewpoint shifted, as I say, by Ed, but, ever tell her about, you know, we should have more openness going on. And so in fact, Tom DeLong came along and, you know, the punk rock bleak 182. And said, you know, we should be, by the way, this is before even things came out in the New York Times in December 2017. He says, you know, I've been talking to people, some aerospace corporations, and they're saying how hard it is to get students to do their engineering and come to work for us.

1:39:24And so he said, well, you know, if there's anything to quote the UFO area, you know, maybe it could generate some interest that way. And so, long so very short, he got Jim Simivan, now retired high level person at CIA, got me. Keep that up, James. And so anyway, we started to the Starves Academy of Arts and Science. And so we were part of what was behind helping Leslie Keen get that story out in the New York Times to break out that something was really going on. Back to this material. So anyway, on this material, she came up with this material. How big is this? So we're looking at, oh, it's about, it's about this big.

1:40:12So four inches. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Pretty big. And so it's got all these layers. So on the one hand, you can say, well, this is just a guy sitting in it, some stuff. There's no chain of custody. You don't know if he's fraud making it up or whatever. But anyway, it turns out those are layers of titanium and bismuth. So anyway, we, Tom DeLong, got a hold of a copy. And so we said, okay, we're going to do everything we can to nail this down. So we actually set up a contract with an Army office. And then they arranged for Arrow, the all -domain anomalies resolution office to consider taking this seriously.

1:41:00And so they arranged that this could be analyzed by Oak Ridge National Laboratory. And so we provided this to them to analyze, okay. And what were the results? Well, the results were that there's no obvious proof that it comes from out of our solar system, could be because there are various isotopes that would be different if it came from some other solar system. So that would be the first thing you'd look forward to say, oh, this really is ET. So that didn't wash. The second part, though, was a little more interesting. And that is these layers of magnesium and bismuth, I mean, those are the size of a human hair, some of those layers.

1:41:45And they said, well, we can't find any evidence in the history of development of materials, of materials like that. And can't even imagine anybody want to make it. So it's just, it's an anomaly. So no proof that it's ET. But one of the things we did do, he says, okay, well, how hard is it to make something like this? And so we got an aerospace corporation to say, can you bond bismuth and magnesium together, you know, sort of like what we see in this sample? Well, they got two layers bonded, cost them over a million dollars, broke down their instruments to do it. So it's still basically a mystery.

1:42:31So we got to read the report. It was not totally provided to the public. So it was just about a quarter inch thick, is that what we're looking at here? Yeah. So how many layers did they estimate? I think we had, it might have been 18, something like that. We could probably count them. So anyway, so that that that's a possible example, but no conclusion we can't do that. So this is something that is of terrestrial origin in terms of materials when you measure the isotopes. But it's of a construction method that's not currently available. That is a perfect description of the situation. And by the way, certainly wasn't available back in the 40s and 50s.

1:43:22Right. I mean, supposedly was found. Supposedly. That's the problem. So when was this analyzed in what year? Well, analysis started taking place by learning how at other laboratories, I think in the years, in the 2000s, and we got home a week back. Yeah, we got it, I don't know, maybe 20, 20, 20, something like that. But whoever, if the chain of custody has analyzed, we got it analyzed only a couple of years ago. But if the chain of custody is accurate, it goes back far enough where this is impossible. Right. And it's seemingly given the effort that the aerospace corporation put in. They can't even manufacture this today.

1:44:13Right. In that level. So this, the Roswell crash is the big one. Right. That's the one that everybody knows about. And it was in 1947 in Roswell, Mexico. And the wreckage was flown in two separate planes to Wright Patterson Air Force Base, which is unusual in and of itself. And the idea was that it's flown in two planes, just in case one goes down. That this stuff is so important that we have to analyze it. That's correct. What do you think that was? I think it was a true non -human intelligence craft that crashed.

1:44:57We've talked to one of my colleagues, Eric Davis, is one of my senior scientific advisors. He interviewed General Exxon, who had been head of Wright Patterson Air Force Base and so on. And also debos. So he's interviewed a couple of people that were involved back in those days. And they say it was a real deal. That this was a real, unidentifiable crash. And these materials were really, really from out someplace. And what did they say was done with the wreckage? That had been taken to Wright Patterson Air Force Base for analysis. And did anything come out of that analysis? Not that the public would hear about.

1:45:51Not that you can disclose. Not that I could disclose. That's where it gets frustrating. So there was. Well, I guess it gets frustrating even for, I mean, the compartmentalization in this area is really obscene. So you can have people sitting at this desk and someone else sitting in that chair. And they don't have access. I can't tell him what I'm working on. He can't tell me what he's working on. So that's our going forward with this is very, very slow and not opportune. I would have to say. And of course, we have data. Can't go into detail. We have data about crashes in other countries. So it's really clear that we're not the only ones on the planet.

1:46:38So that's something to be concerned about because, for example, here, we have our capitalistic competition aerospace corporations, electronics corporations, all being very hushed up and not sharing any kind of innovations. Which stifles innovation. Stifles innovation. Meanwhile in China, you put all the labs on something like this and say, and by the way, don't say anything outside that you're not supposed to say or you're done. And so the competition that potentially could be... They're uninhended. Yeah. So that's part of what's behind are not revealing what we've learned because there might be some aspect that we've learned, which in principle you think we could reveal.

1:47:27But it might be the missing piece that some potential adversary said, oh, that's what we've been missing. Right. So even though, generally speaking, I'm of the feeling that there should be more disclosure, I'm also very tight on anything that could be potentially helpful to an adversary in this area. We're not going to reveal that would be a mistake. So how do these things keep crashing if they're so good? They can get here from somewhere else. Why do they slam into the desert? Some of them have just been left in the desert. Not crashed. Some of them. Some of them have just... I talked to Diana Pouscalco about this.

1:48:17Oh, okay. And she refers to them as donations. She said that's how they were described to her. Yeah, so in fact, you know, maybe some of them are donations to help us accelerate our forward motion or maybe they donate something here, something in China, something in Russia, and see who is best at moving forward, just as part of their ISR evaluation of us. I mean, let's face it, we've had, as is known in the public, we've had UFOs come over our missile silos, when it mounts from Air Force Base that Salis has talked about, Bob Salis, they turned off all of our missiles. It says, no way it could be launched.

1:49:11In Russia, there's even a worst case, they started the launch sequence in Russia at a missile silo, nuclear missile silo, and the people at the location could not stop it, could not turn it off. So they thought, you know, World War III is about to stop. Fortunately, it was turned off. So anyway, you've got two things to do. So they, whoever was doing that, whoever was manipulating it turned it off. That's right. So there's a big question, there are two ways to look at that. They're friendly and benign, and they just want us to know that if we get too frisky down here and think about having nuclear war, they can stop it, or they might not be benign, and the Armada is on its way, and they just want to test that they can stop our use of nuclear weapons against them.

1:50:02So it's from a security standpoint, from a DOD standpoint, from an intelligence community standpoint, you always have to have the worst scenario in your mind. Right. And see where you go. Yeah, well, I would imagine from a security standpoint, it's a nightmare, because you're not secure at all. If something can fly over your airspace, and you can't do anything about it, and it can shut down your missiles or turn them on, you're in a very strange situation. That's true. Where you completely help us, dependent upon the whim of these beings. Exactly. Or whatever their mandate is, whatever they're trying to do.

1:50:43Right. What do you think they're trying to do here?

1:50:49I have thoughts going in many directions and answered that question. All the way from... Well, they seated us here, you know, millennia ago, and they're just seeing how their petri dish is doing. Human beings, the product of accelerated evolution. Yeah, something like that. But I mean, it's really hard to know. I mean, maybe that we're a very special planet, because we have all this water, which generally speaking is kind of rare. So, you know, maybe they'd like to slowly build up a connection with us. So that they could take advantage of direct access to some of our resources. Don't know. By and large, interactions have not been what you might call negative.

1:51:44I mean, even when we shoot missiles at them or whatever. But there were a series of events in Claris Island in Brazil, back in the 80s, I think it was. And as part of our program, we investigated that in some detail, where over some long period, like weeks, and the Brazilian Air Force got involved. They got thousand hours of film, and they put their big Air Force group down there. And the UFOs are coming over and sending out beams that were actually harming people. That's our one example that stands out. Oh, they're being apparent episodes where UFOs have no way to interpret it, but as negative.

1:52:46So that makes you wonder, well, maybe they're just one particular group of UFO knots that are negatively disposed, but the rest of them are okay. So anyway, that's... Well, they're probably just like humans in that regard. There's humans that are involved in scientific research expeditions. They go there not looking to do any harm at all. And then there's humans that will go into an area where they're looking to extract resources. And all they want to do is do that. And anything that gets in their way is casualties. Yeah, exactly. So there's a lot... I mean, it's still a big area that needs a lot of look -see.

1:53:28And interesting enough, even though this has been a tinfoil hat -crowd kind of thing up until around 2017, and the New York Times story came out, suddenly that really made a difference because the people that were coming on board, that there's something real here, where people like Senator Harry Reid and other senators and so on. And so that sort of broken open that, okay, there really is something here. And so as a result of that, that's how some of these programs have gotten pushed forward, reignited. How many of these crashed crafts do you estimate there are that human beings have recovered?

1:54:17More than ten. More than ten. More than ten. How many of them are in possession of people in the United States? I'm at more than ten in possession of the United States. What about worldwide? Worldwide? Do we have any data on that? We have data, but it's classified as no way to really talk about it. But so there's more, though. That you could safely say it's not just the ones in the United States. Not just the ones in the United States. Are they equally distributed?

1:54:55Actually, I don't know for sure in terms of data. I mean, we have our best data, of course, on our own retrievals. But more than ten. It's hard to say. Retrieves in the United States. More than ten. Retrieves. What does your take on Bob Lazar? Well, we looked into the Bob Lazar store. But only from a certain relatively superficial level. We found out what his clearance levels supposedly were and so on. Which came back saying it was not high enough to be doing what he says he was doing. On the other hand, it may just simply be, yeah. It was better than that, but we didn't have the access to see that.

1:55:45So when I hear its physics descriptions, it's a puzzle. It seems not exactly as I would anticipate. It might be the technology behind the craft, but I can't absolutely ride them off. So it's just an enigma and I don't have any hard data to prove one way or the other. So I know you've talked to him. Yeah. It's a fascinating puzzle. It is a fascinating puzzle. Because that would be the place. S4 would be the place where they would do that kind of work. If you wanted to do something like that in complete privacy and secrecy, you'd do it in the middle of Nevada desert. Very protective. That's true.

1:56:30Outside of Area 51. So even with people that have high clearances go and say, well, tell me about this. What's behind this? Who knows if it's a special access program and SAP? It might be say, no, we're going to tell you that you didn't do anything of significance here. In fact, you might have done something of significance. There's just no way we're telling from the outside. Yeah. So the actual generator, the thing that powers the craft that Lazar talked about. What was your take on that? This idea that it was element 115 that when it encounters high radiation, it has some sort of an anti -gravitational effect, some warp effect.

1:57:17Well, there are two aspects. One is what is the material or mechanisms that generate the effects. And then the other is, are the effects being described? Reasonable descriptions of the kind of effects you think are associated with such craft. On the element 115, as you know, in the general scientific community, we finally have seen element 115, but it's a very short lived. So it's hard to evaluate that. And at this point, there's no evidence that that's it. We should explain to people, it was theoretical at one point until they detected it using, was the large Hadron collider or another particle collider?

1:58:01Right now, I think it was a particle collider in Soviet Union or in Russia. And it's very short lasting. But the idea is that what Lazar was in possession of or what the craft was powered by was some sort of a stable version of element 115. That's what he says. So in general, it was known and predicted that there was an island of stability, as we call it, on some of these higher elements in the periodic table that are beyond uranium and so on. But really no data predicted as to what their lifetimes would be. And so element 115 is in that bunch. And when he first discussed it, it hadn't been seen yet.

1:58:52Or this is way back in 1910. That's right. But eventually, the element was detected, although the version of it that was detected had a very short lifetime. But of course, there may be some other isotope of that element that could have had the long lifetime. Who knows. So it's just hard to evaluate. So it sits in my gray box, as I say. But his description of the anti -gravity effects and so on, that's an area that is well described as what you might expect. As it turns out in that series of 38 papers, one of my own papers that I provided was one called Space Time Metric Engineering. And when the pilot came to me and said, you know, drop down, take off, right angle turn at Mach 10.

1:59:49You know, this is way beyond the physics. And as I said earlier, you know, I think it's not beyond the physics beyond our engineering. But what I did on the physics level was all of our electronics that we have here. For example, this microphone, the recording that you're making. And so that's all based on electromagnetic kinds of technologies, all of which come out of Maxwell's equations. Maxwell's equations, clucked back as well, way back in the 1800s, developed the equations for electromagnetism. And basically any kind of electromagnetic device you name it, Wi -Fi, whatever. It can be traced back to this equation.

2:00:35So what I said to myself was, okay, we have these apparent craft operating with us unbelievable kinds of activity. Is there any way to account for that in our physics? Well, it turns out so what I did, I took a sheet of paper and the left hand side of the paper, I wrote down all the weird effects that have been claimed, you know, right angle turn at Mach 10. I got close to the craft and suddenly it wasn't the same size as it seemed to be when I was further away.

2:01:11It was a certain color. But when I got close to it, it was a different color, you know, all these weird things. To me, to me, the weirder the better, because if somebody was just making up a BS story, they wanted to sound rational. So you don't come up with things like, well, I got in the craft, five minutes went by, I came out and two hours have gone by. You know, you're just not going to make that up. Then on the right hand side of the piece of paper, I said, okay, we have Einstein's equations in general relativity. And we use them to talk about black hole mergers or neutron star mergers or whatever.

2:01:47And all these things are massively energetic events. Suppose I could engineer Einstein's equations, the way we engineer Maxwell's equations for electromagnetic wave, what would I expect to see? And I find out I got a hand in glove match between what was claiming you to be observed. And you know, what Einstein's equation, if you could engineer them, well, why can't we engineer them? Well, at what we, at least what we know today is the energy density required to engineer those equations is just way beyond our ability to do so. So can you give me a comparison with the energy requirements of the planet that would be like?

2:02:34Yeah, people have, in fact, Alcubiae warp drive, I don't know if you've heard of that, but Amiguel Alcubiae was a researcher in general relativity and kind of a star track fan and so on. You said, I wonder if we could really have warp drive. And so he used Einstein's equations to say, okay, under what conditions could we do a warp drive? And he actually came up with solutions from out of the equations. Okay, what would it take to drive that? Oh, it would be hundreds of times more than the energy of the Sun. I mean, just out of sight energy. So until we have a new energy source or until there's some backdoor that we haven't, you know, stewarded on, it's just really outside of our expertise to think of it.

2:03:33There could be conceivably some breakthrough and an understanding of this backdoor, like whatever it could be, some new type of science, new kind of understanding. And one of the things that I've looked into myself as well, what about vacuum energy, so -called? As a quantum physicist, we all know that, you know, you push a kid in the swing and it, you know, it comes down and stops. But at the quantum level, you get something going, it doesn't stop. It always comes down to a certain level and it's still there. So it turns out that what we call empty space is not really empty. It's full of quantum fluctuations.

2:04:20And in fact, one of the difficulties of modern physics theory is that when we go by using our standard quantum theory to calculate, well, what's the energy density like right here or way out in empty space? What's the energy density of those quantum fluctuations? It's 120 orders of magnitude greater than could possibly be according to all of our other theories. I mean, it would collapse gravity and everything else. So we have this conundrum that that energy that is everywhere, somehow all is random and cancels out. So, you know, it's just not having an effect. So the idea is if you could somehow access that energy and coherent, so to speak, maybe you could get to the energy.

2:05:14I mean, I would that look like.

2:05:21Well, if I go off on a weird tangent, I could tell you what it might look like. Along the way in the remote viewing program where we're kind of looking at physical effects, we decided to take a look at so -called levitating saints. And so, you know, you think, okay, well, that's just, that's the Catholic Church trying to pretend that's got these magical people and whatever, whatever. But when you dig into the data, you find that that isn't it. It's that the church hated the idea that some individuals were levitating because they might be in the middle of giving mass and suddenly they, you know, float up or whatever.

2:06:13So it turns out that even looking in the deep literature of the Inquisition and so on, the evidence is really solid. That there have been levitating saints. And what the Catholic Church usually did is they scroll them off into some monastery where nobody's seeing them because they're so. Let me say levitate, like what do you mean? High me. High me. High me. High me. High me. He's got something here. Notable example happened during the visit to Italy from the Spanish ambassador. The ambassador visited Joseph in his monastic cell and was so impressed that he wanted to return with his wife. Joseph entered the church where the couple hoped to meet him and upon seeing the statue of Mary elevated 10 feet into the air, flew over the crowd to the statue, prayed, flew back to the door and returned home.

2:07:04The church later took depositions from a number of people who were there that day and their stories were consistent. And the year what year was this? 1628. 1628. So there are enough stories like that with lots of observers and the reporting under really excellent conditions. Okay. Now that guy didn't have a nuclear power pack on his back. So how did that happen? Well, the only thing I can think of in terms of the physics we know today would be that somehow the vacuum energy, which can be very high if you cohered it. And if you made it non -random, maybe that could do it. So perhaps he was able to access this with states of consciousness because he was so devout in his faith that upon seeing this, the experience was so overwhelming that he was somehow able to access this energy.

2:08:04Right. And that ecstatic state is that it would take this extreme belief, this extreme commitment, this state of mind, it's very rare. Exactly. That's what it would take. And you would follow that when you did the experiments with the quantum chip, you would say, well, if someone's able to control oscillations, you're doing something with your mind that shouldn't be possible. Right. And you're affecting a physical thing that shouldn't be possible. And this is just someone who had never thought of doing that before. Someone who didn't know that they were going, this is so this is a physical manifestation of the power of whatever unknown ability of the human mind.

2:08:52So since it's unknown, you know, there's no way we would know how to tap it. Right. And if these are very unique moments where this is an extremely devout person who obviously was a monk was probably meditating and achieving this insane state of consciousness that's almost impossible to get to, unless you're committed as long as he was, unless you're as dedicated as he was, and then he has this overwhelming moment. Right. And I have no way to, you know, connect the physics to it. But the idea is that if there is energy that's allowing a person using their mind to do this, that somehow another if this energy could be accessed through science, through physics, and engineering.

2:09:37And we tried to look into that, for example, Andre Sakharov, a very famous Soviet physicist, said, you know, I don't think gravity is its own thing. I think really it's a manifestation of the underlying quantum fluctuations. And so, so I and some colleagues from Lockheed Martin and elsewhere kind of looked into that option. And, you know, if we're just sitting here talking and someone, you know, universe is full of quantum fluctuations. When are I notice it? On the other hand, if you get into your fast moving car and you suddenly take off, you're pressed back in your seat. Well, what is it that's pressing you back?

2:10:35I mean, it isn't the wind. You've got a windshield in the cover. Well, there's some modeling that says, well, maybe it's because if you try to accelerate through the vacuum fluctuations, it will push back on you. So, that might be our first little touch that, okay, under conditions of acceleration, we do notice the background, back in fluctuations. Well, says to a theorist, inertia and gravity are, you know, connected somehow, then it makes you think, okay, well, maybe there's some way of accessing back in fluctuations to control gravity. That's what we would like to think. And so, one of the things we did in the program was just collect every bit of data that we could.

2:11:23So, for example, when I went through my analysis of, well, if we could engineer general relativity, what we'd expect to see, a number of things came out of it. So, for example, in this room, most of the electromagnetic energy we don't see, it's in the form of heat. And we don't see heat. You know, if you get an infrared detector, you can see it, but we don't see heat. Well, it turns out that under the conditions in which you're controlling gravity, the way these craft appear to be doing, one of the consequences and one of the attributes that goes along with it is that frequencies get raised. And so, the heat of a craft that you ordinarily wouldn't see can get raised up into the visible spectrum.

2:12:19And so, that's why they might look so bright that also has certain other additional consequences. That is, if it's powered up and it's sitting there on the ground, and you get too close, the ordinary heat spectrum, which isn't harmful, the visible spectrum, which isn't harmful, can be shifted up frequency into the ultraviolet and soft x -ray. So, if you get too close to land the craft that's powered up, you might get a sunburn, which is one of the things that has been reported. Or you might actually, in fact, get radiation poisoning from x -rays and so on. So, those kinds of things seem to go hand in hand and give us some clues of where to look.

2:13:04What does you take on the Travis Walton story? I think the Travis Walton story is right on. I think that's a solid story. I don't have any specific transport problems. Oh, yes, okay. That's him. He gave it to me. I see it, okay. No, I think all aspects that I've seen of his story, I take that as... For people that don't know the story, I'll give you a brief synapsis or a brief breakdown of what it was. They're loggers. They're driving through Arizona. They see this craft moving through the sky. And it goes into the woods. Travis gets out of the truck, runs towards it, gets too close to it, and is hit with some sort of a beam.

2:13:48Flies back, falls down. The other guy's panic. They take off in the truck, and as they're taking off, they're arguing that they need to go back and get him. We need to go help him. We need to go back and get him. They're all freaked out. They decide, yeah, we gotta go back. So, they turn around and he's gone. They get back to the spot. The craft is gone. Travis is gone. They reported, everyone's freaking out. No one knows what this is. The suspect they might have killed him or something. Five days later, Travis appears. We're in the same clothes looking none the worse for wear with this fantastic story that they took him aboard this craft, and they communicated with him and fixed his body.

2:14:24That's something happened to him upon the impact of whatever that ray was that hit him. And he was going to die. They repaired him, and they communicated with him and brought him back. Five days later, he has the story. He's had the same story for decades. And one of the reasons I accept that story is that, for example, the other people who left the site and then went back, they eventually did polygraphs on them, and they passed the polygraphs. They weren't making up that story. Polygraphs are manipulatable. You can manipulate them. Well, yeah, you can, but would I expect that some unsophisticated loggers would know that.

2:15:04One of the guys didn't even like Travis. One of the guys Travis got into a fist fight with the actual day of the event. Yeah, and he also told the exact same story. Right. Yeah. So there was a lot going on with that one. And then there had been frequent sightings in that one particular area, which is also weird. Like what is it about certain areas? I mean, there's the area that you discussed in Australia. Well, that would kind of make sense if there really is a base somewhere. You know, and the real thought that keeps getting brought about in the zeitgeist is the ocean. That's what people bring up all the time.

2:15:44If you wanted to hide and play inside, where would you hide? Well, you hide in three quarters of the earth's surface that we very rarely examine. And the observation of UFOs coming up or nonhuman until I tell this craft coming up out of the ocean are they're all over the place. Right. Tim Goddellay, who's ex Navy Admiral, who he's a Navy Admiral now retired, who was in charge of NOAA, the National Oceanographic, whatever it's called. He's really big on the idea of collecting data about UFOs emerging from the water. And so it seems like the data on that is just all over the place. Also observing UFOs in the water zooming by submarines.

2:16:37Right. At 4 or 9 or 5 or 9 or whatever without any cavitation. I mean, it's just really so that the data we're buried in data really. We're just not buried in how to explain it. Have any of these remote viewers tried to look at the bottom of the ocean?

2:17:07Nothing I'm aware of. Now, remote viewers have zeroed in on UFOs, although it turns out not at the bottom of the ocean. Let me give you an example. But we should probably do that. I mean, since now these days I'm not involved in the remote viewing programs. So maybe there are some. But there are remote viewing programs that are still going on right now. I would say that's likely. I'm when you have an asset that works some degree, even though it's dismissed publicly. Even though it's dismissed publicly. So even after the SRI program got shut down.

2:17:51And after I came out to Austin in what 85 to set up Earth Tech International in the Institute for Dance Studies at Austin. Starting to pursue my physics stuff because I really wanted to pursue my physics. I didn't want to stay in looking at a well viewing forever. But I got calls from certain intelligence agency asking me if I'd be willing to set up another program in remote viewing. And so I figured, okay, I turned them down because I like the change I had made. But so if they asked me that chance are they asked somebody else that and then probably got somebody to degree to do it. And from time to time many of the remote viewers that we trained in Army in SCOM for example have now retired from the Army.

2:18:46And they're teaching remote viewing classes. And they often get tasked by somebody back in the intelligence community to check out something. I mean they've been very prolific in for example detecting say cargo ships coming across the ocean where certain containers full of dope. Really? That's been released on the CIA site about remote viewing results. And so you can find it. Of course I tell any remote viewers I know you know you know don't want to advertise that because you don't want cartels. Check on your back so. Yeah, but what I'm interested in is the possibility of things under the ocean.

2:19:38And I would imagine if I was running a remote viewing program and I had suspicions that there's activity under the ocean like that craft that was seen that goes 500 knots under the water that I would start looking under there. I can well imagine that somebody is not aware of it. But there was there's this structure that exists off the coast of California at the bottom of the ocean that looks odd very odd. It looks very constructed. It looks man -made or intelligent in its construction. And I was just looking at something on Google Earth the other day where people are having a hard time finding it now.

2:20:16And they're thinking that it's perhaps obscured. See if you can find that because I know what you're talking about. I saw as well and it was certainly interesting. It looked very weird. You know it looked like it looked like some sort of a base. It was flat on the top and it looked like it had openings in it. See I lost your sound. Oh you did. Jamie, maybe it's your headphones or did you step on something? You hear me now? No. I mean I just hear you take it to the air. We're going to take a break right now because I got to use the restroom anyway and Jamie will fix it and we'll be right back. That'll tactical snafu use the restroom and we're back.

2:21:01So I forget exactly where we're at but I know where I wanted to go. We're talking about potential sources of energy, potential sources of propulsion systems. How much do you consider the possibility that the things that people are seeing are ours? They're made in some top secret program using some advanced propulsion systems, some advanced energy system that is not publicly. I wouldn't rule out the fact that we may have some pretty fancy things running from our own labs. I know that what gets developed in the dark labs, some of which I know about are really advanced but it just can't cover the whole observation that we're seeing with what we call NHI craft non -human intelligence craft.

2:22:03What do you think that some of this stuff has been back engineered from these non -human crafts? Some of the materials, I would say yes, I think we've got some, I mean it's out on the web these days that for example Battelle Institute has supposedly were given some materials from from the Roswell crash and we always hear the descriptions of this foil that you could crumple up and then let go and just flattens out again and so on. So material of that type was provided to Battelle and they worked on it for some years to try to see if they could reproduce it. And the claim is that it's in the public domain that night to no, came out of it which is that material that can be heated and then it will reform into its original sorts.

2:23:09It doesn't exactly reproduce the effect you saw but some of it is kind of in the direction of that and it turned out that some of the main material engineers that worked on that were at their deathbed, they told their relatives that they were working on pieces from the Roswell crash and they made some progress but not a lot. You can look that up on the internet and see that that's the case. Is part of the limitation this thing that we're discussing earlier about compartmentalization and the lack of ability of other scientists to get access to this material so they can collaborate? Yes, the compartmentalization I would say is the biggest impediment to making really good progress.

2:23:58For sure, I think that's the case. And this conundrum has sort of existed for quite a long time. Quite a long time. This is something that's also in line with what Bobbles Arsad. Bobbles Arsad, the big frustration when he was working, he was tasked with trying to figure out the propulsion system but he had no access to the metal urges. He had no access to anyone else that was also working on similar things and he's like science just can't progress this way. It needs to be collaborative. Absolutely right. That's 100 % and it's even worse than you would think. One of the stories that I ran into was a corporation had materials from crashes in their basement.

2:24:48They couldn't even bring them up to the top floor for their own scientists to look at because it was so compartmentalized. And so that was part of the deal where we said, okay, well give them to us and then we'll come in the front door and give them to your scientists. And we won't say it came from your basement and we won't say what it had to do with. And maybe that would work. That got shut down. It was so compartmentalized. So compartmentalization is really a death now on much of this stuff. As I say, as I go back to my teller story, more collaboration, even though there are faults that can happen and material can leak out and information can leak out and that might help an adversary.

2:25:37Still I think more openness would be a better idea. Oh for sure. Well definitely for you and I who are fascinating about this thing. What have you had a personal experience with anything that you can't explain? No actually haven't. So for you, it's only I mean one time I saw what appeared to be a satellite, make a right angle, turns, so that falls into that kind of a category. But who knows who knows what it was. Right. So no. Nothing profound. Nothing profound. So you've never been hopped in a jet and flown to the wreckage and had just a look at things. No haven't. Don't you want to? Well I sure would like to do that.

2:26:24But that's still, that's still. We had this discussion earlier about, you know, well, for example in the role of viewing or quantum entanglement or, you know, what's going on in our physics that we don't understand that these kinds of things can be happening. And you'll be interested to know that someone you know, John Paul DeGiorio, and I are in partnership to explore a due means of communication, quantum communications. And so I'm actually now at this point directly involved in a program to examine quantum communications. And so it turns out that whereas ordinary electromagnetic communications, you know, can't get through barriers, metal door or whatever, well why is that?

2:27:22It's because the electromagnetic signal, when it gets to the metal door, the electric and magnetic field generate counteracting effects. And so the signal can't get through. So it turned out that some years ago when I was digging around to try to find out how to explain unusual effects, I dug deeper into electromagnetism down into the quantum levels and recognize that there are some additional quantum processes where you could end up suppressing the electric and magnetic fields, but you would still have a quantum signal, which in principle could get through barriers. And so that would mean, okay, if that's the case, and you could communicate to submarines.

2:28:12So whereas the saltwater is sufficiently conductive, then electromagnetic signals can't get down there and communicate. If you are able to pull out the electric and magnetic components, but you still have an underlying quantum aspect to it, you could get through. Or same thing with, you know, spaceships, you know, when our spaceships came back from when the public spaceships came back, once they started in our atmosphere and are surrounded by plasma, we had this period where there's no communication. Well, for the very reason that electromagnetic signals can't get through, charged plasmus. But this quantum communication aspect could.

2:28:52So how would you encode the information quantumly and how would you project it? What kind of machinery would be involved and something like that? Well, it turns out that the machinery to generate the signals would be very explicitly designed antenna structures. They're put together in such a way as to prevent electromagnetic components from being transmitted. It's the detection part where the secret to the technology is because it turns out that, okay, if electromagnetic signals aren't there, how are you going to detect such a signal? Because all of our detectors are, you know, electromagnetic signal comes in and generates a current and whatever.

2:29:45Well, it turns out that the special kinds of signaling at the quantum level can only be detected by quantum devices. Quantum devices can detect these quantum communication signals, even if there's no electric and magnetic effects associated with them. So that's what we're looking at. And so when I think about, okay, what areas does this have application for? Well, of course, it's got a lot of applications, things like communication and under conditions where you'd like to overcome shielding. But it may have something to do even with some of the consciousness stuff. Because ordinarily, you know, when you hear about people trying to think, well, what about consciousness?

2:30:36Is it still just all molecules of neurons whirling around or are there some additional fields? There are a couple of physicists, well, the physicist and anesthesiologist, the physicist Roger Penrose. We have Nobel Prize for her general relativity stuff. And Stu Hameroff, who is an anesthesiologist, they coupled up and started saying, okay, is there a possibility that there are quantum aspects in ordinary life, in ordinary consciousness? Because it sounds kind of reasonable. The anesthesiologist says, well, when I give somebody a certain anesthetic, they lose consciousness. So there must be something about the anesthesi, cesia that grabs unto whatever's responsible for consciousness to make long story short.

2:31:28They came up with a model where they felt that there are in fact quantum processes occurring within the brain. That in addition to the stuff we all read about, know about, like neurons and all that kind of stuff, there's also a distribution throughout our brain, a nervous system of what's called micro tubules. In terms of micro tubules have such a structure, you do experiments in lab to show this, that they can detect quantum signals. So the idea that even in our consciousness, there are mechanisms for detecting quantum signals, is like a whole new area to investigate. And so there are some biological and consciousness -oriented experimenters that are taking a look at this idea that, okay, instead of just saying quantum entanglement, that's how information, you know, get from here to there, maybe we can actually find out, okay, well, what's the mechanism though?

2:32:35And so this is a whole new area. It turns out that I developed proof of principle for this sub -rosal quantum communication stuff on a classified contract back in the 90s, actually. So I got proof of principle in that situation. However, you say, okay, well, if you got proof of principle, then why aren't we using it? Why isn't it all over the place? Well, it turns out the quantum detection, quantum detectors were very, you know, new kinds of circuitry, and nothing ready for prime time. So I put that whole thing on the shelf, let it sit there for a while. And now because of quantum computing, it turns out a lot of research effort is going to develop cryogenic circuitry near absolute zero to be used in quantum computing.

2:33:36So I said, okay, they got these Joseph and Junction's working, which is exactly what I want to use for my detection scheme. And so I find time to decide to take it off the shelf. So I approached JP and showed him what the potential was. Not only in just communications, but maybe it has implications for, you know, biological things or medical things or whatever, because of this other work on micro -tubules. So he said, okay, well, let's go for it. So we have another major lab that is actually putting together circuitry forests that absolutely operates about 3 .7 degrees above absolute zero. I mean, this is really quite a technical challenge.

2:34:28But he and I are working in that together. He's my collaborator. Fascinating. Quantum entanglement is that what you think was going on with the algae? So if you were able to do something to the algae in one area, this same colony of algae, when you had separated by long distances, they instantaneously recognize that something was happening. That's the only thing I can imagine at this point, based on the physics we know. How far were they separated in distance? Well, I was going to separate. It was about five miles. As it turns out, I never actually got to do that experiment because the CIA came and scooped me up and said, well, we got to look at this remote viewing.

2:35:10And so even though I proposed doing the experiment, the polygraphs said that guys said this would be a great experiment. Never got around to doing the experiment because along the way, Ingoswan, Visitor's Lab came out and perturbed the tiny quantum chip in the super shielded environment that brought the CIA on my doorstep. And so then we went off in that direction. So I never got to do the experiment. So as you consider all these technologies, as these innovations occur and technology becomes more and more powerful, like quantum computing, like many of these things that we're seeing now, do you think that these are all steps to further understand how these crafts could possibly work and we're getting closer and closer to it where disclosure would accelerate that.

2:36:08And we would have to get over this. We'd have to get we'd have to have some sort of amnesty. Amnesty towards the people that that misappropriated funds and lied to Congress, amnesty towards whatever defense contractors were given access to this equipment or these materials and other ones. So there has to be some executive decision that's made where like look for the greater good of the human race, we have to bypass all these blockades that are involved in us being able to truly understand what's going on here. And one of them is we have to have disclosure. Yes, exactly. And in fact, we're not alone in thinking that way as you may as many in the field are aware of in 2023.

2:36:57Then majority leader, Senate majority leader Chuck Schumer and Chuck, yeah, Chuck Schumer and a Republican Senator rounds got together and they put together an outline of an amendment to be attached to the National Defense Authorization Act called UAP Disclosure Act 2020. And it's pages and pages long. And it's hard to believe, but within this document they outline how you would go through disclosure. And it's very detailed. I mean, for example, this is an official government document. You can go find it on the internet. Non -human intelligence phrase is mentioned more than 20 times. Whoa. And the document said look what we need is a presidential panel.

2:38:07President say officiated panel of people from several different areas. And all those people out there who have materials and so on, we're going to practice imminent domain, which is turns out to be one of the things that turns people hair on fire when they think they've got something and don't want to share it. But anyway, that we have to come up with a process whereby corporations that have been involved in this can begin to share their history and their data and their materials. And the National Archives will be set up to make this information available as is safe to do considering security concerns.

2:38:59And so this is a multi -page document that you can find you can find it on the internet. Okay. It passed the Senate, but the house killed it. So you might think, okay, well, that's the end of that. Surprisingly so. And it makes you realize the intensity of this after it was killed both Schumer and rounds got back up on in the center. And so the Senate floor and said, okay, it got killed, but we're not giving up. We're going to get it in there next year. And so the following year, 2024, they included it again. And most of it got killed. The only thing that got killed was, okay, the National Archives will make available whatever information is provided them on this subject area.

2:39:54And the National Archives has started to do that. But as you can imagine, anybody who's got some really juicy stuff isn't going to give it the National Archives. So that's, it's still done in the water. So anyway, recently I was asked to come in and brief Senator Rounds, who is one of the two people who appreciates this. And he said, we're not giving up on this. Give me what you found so far about the physics of this. Because when we try to push it, we're always get the pushback that, well, you know, we're not going to make any headway. The pilot say this is way beyond our physics, but I understand that you and your colleagues have worked on this and felt that you can provide some of the physics.

2:40:41We may not get the engineering yet, but we have some place to start. Is that true? Because I need to push back and the pushback. So I gave them a long lecture on the physics. Which I've also presented to the Senate Select Committee and Intelligence, the Senate Armed Services Committee, ARO, the old domain anomalies resolution office. So the information is coming out into those places. And so there are those people in high positions of power in our Congress, who are really pushing it. So for example, as it turns out tomorrow, there's going to be a big meeting. I think it was set up by Representative Luna, or, yeah, I think it's Representative Luna.

2:41:36You know, when they put out that official document saying, okay, JFK files are coming out, RFK files are coming out, MLK files are coming out. In that list, UFO files are coming out. Well, they haven't gotten there. The Epstein files are coming out. Okay. So it's officially on that list. This one, in fact, turns out tomorrow there's going to be a big thing in Congress where they're going to have an open hearing with people coming forward to talk about that there should be some release of some steps forward to release this kind of data. So it is not a dead issue. I mean, it is hot. And there are a lot of really powerful people behind it.

2:42:21But you've got the resistance. I mean, there are people within the intelligence community and the DOD who do think we need more openness. They see the same issues. I see that we're not making much progress because everything is so compartmentalized. Right. So is there a concern going thing when you talked about during the Bush administration, you were tasked along with others to try to figure out what are the pros and what are the cons and what what at ways what. And you they your group decided that the cons outweigh the pros when it comes to disclosure today with the risk of espionage and with the risk of this information.

2:43:04And if it becomes disclosed and everybody has access to it, clearly if it's disclosed to general public, it's also going to be disclosed to our enemies. Right. And so this becomes an issue of national security. Yes. So it's got to be done correctly. How would one do that? Well, this right up that Schumer and rounds and some other people, Gillibran and Rubio put together said, okay, we're going to have to lay everything out in the table. At a higher classified area, we're going to have to sort our way through of what can be released that doesn't take the chance of giving our at potential adversaries data they need to to delete ahead of us.

2:43:49But nonetheless, we've got to have more collaboration so we can move ahead faster. So that's that's the job of at least in that document of a nine person panel to figure out, okay, what could be released without jeopardizing our national security so much. But nonetheless, accelerating the kind of collaboration we need to make headway faster. And then there's the issue of when it does get disclosed, like what happens to the general public's perception? If this is like a national disclosure, if the president, if Trump gets on television and discloses everything we know so far, we are in possession of 10 vehicles, how we want to call them, of non -human intelligence that are not ours.

2:44:43We have been working on this for decades in secrecy, but because of the fact that everything has been so secret and everything so compartmentalized, innovation has been stagnant, our understanding of it has been stagnant. The only way forward is to disclose, but this has kind of come with a radical reimagining of our place in the universe. What you've just described is what I think has to happen. I mean, because you have whistleblowers like Dave Grush coming forward, and he basically says we've got craft, we've got bodies, we've got aerospace corporations working on this behind the scenes. But in the end, that doesn't go anywhere, it doesn't really solve the problem.

2:45:32And you have people come forward and said, look, I can give you the address of where the stuff is stored. So we can take this out of the discussion area and really prove something. But it would take, I think, a presidential executive order or something to light a fire under that process to have it happen. But that's all possible. It's all possible. And when I compare, you know, where are we today as compared to where we were in 2004 or whenever that other disclosure discussion took place. At that time, there was a lot of stigma, there was no proof you could kind of put your hands on.

2:46:27There was, in fact, purposely designed misinformation by the intelligence community. So called Robertson Panel went out of the way to say this is all nonsense. So that was something you're dealing with. So there you realize, well, if I come forward and say there's really something to this, I'm really blasting through quite a brick wall here. But in the intermeeting, intervening decades, I think we've gotten to a point where the reasons we had to not do it then are no longer applicable. But some of the concerns we had discussed then are still applicable and have to be, we have to pay attention to them.

2:47:13So I think, for example, this film that you saw that had its premiere at South by Southwest that Dan Farrah put out, and upcoming book coming out by Jay Stratton, who was in charge of the UAP Task Force, these kind of things are going to accelerate that option. And so I think it's only a matter. I mean, I would find it difficult to believe that within a decade, we're not going to figure out how to do this. And if there will be what you and I would call disclosure, but in a responsible way where we're not providing the enemy information they need. I mean, I recall when the DOD program was set up out of DIA, they said, well, we need to investigate this to find out whose craft there are, you know, how do they run and whatever, whatever.

2:48:17And then the second reason was, what if our potential adversaries get access or figure this out from their data collection before we do and the leap ahead of us. So it turned out that whole program was not based on one. It couldn't care less where these things are coming from, what they're in touch or they're really worried about the possibility of an adversary getting ahead of us. So that was the driving force behind the whole program. Well, now having all these intervening years go by and, you know, there isn't been any obvious super breakthrough by adversaries. I think now is the time we could have a kind of a reconciliation process, make sure we don't put everybody in jail and anything to do with covering this up, provide proper lanes to bring various aspects of information forward.

2:49:13And so that's what I and colleagues that I interact with are trying to do today. I would also think that if I was looking at civilization, particularly United States civilization and thinking what kind of an impact would things have in 2004 with disclosure and what kind of an impact would they have in 2025, I think that this gradual acceptance and this understanding that this is probably a real phenomenon is much more widespread today. So the concept of it, it wouldn't be as shocking as it would have been two decades ago, you know, two decades ago, by the way, is when the the TickTack vehicle was was observed, which was 2004, which is really kind of crazy when you think about the technology that was required to do something and then imagine that technology being hours in 2004 seems preposterous.

2:50:13It seems almost outside of the realm of even whatever top secret programs could have been running some black programs could have been running. That seems too much. It is too much. It seems too crazy. So as the I think a big breakthrough and I think you probably agree with the New York Times that 2017 report in the New York Times was huge because here it is in the most prestigious newspaper in the United States in the world. And it's saying, look, there's real things happening here and there's real people who are at a very high level who are talking about these things, whether it's Commander Fraver or Ryan Graves or all these different fighter pilots that have encountered these things that are just doing something that is beyond explanation.

2:50:57This is more in the Zeitgeist now. Yes. And the more you have people like James Fox and Jeremy Corbell and these documentaries that get out more and more of an understanding and appreciation of fact that these aren't cooks. These are real people and we need to take into consideration the very obvious possibility that we are not unique. There's too many planets, there's too many solar systems, there's too many galaxies, there's two and then dimensions. Yes. And then just the potential of like what what do we look like in a million years? What do we look like in a million years? And if we you know existed in this form for hundreds of thousands of years, it's not inconceivable that a species like us could keep going with its innovative trajectory.

2:51:50Yes. And achieve some state a million years from now that is just beyond our imagination currently and that we might be experiencing that. Right. I think you have laid out an exact map of the real situation and what the future probably holds for us and the fact that now is the time sooner rather than later to begin to have this become part of the world. And so we are part of our total philosophical fabric to face into this and to accept the reality of nonhuman intelligence for example and recognize that our own technical development is moving so fast. That the kind of things that we find to be so mysterious are pretty much likely and are not that far off future.

2:52:46Or just what we see with the leaps that quantum computing is able to achieve equations that would take standard computing billions of years to do it in four minutes. Exactly. You hear that and you go what are you saying? That's right. In fact my son this morning brought up that article and you know it's just it's kind of unbelievable. So it's unbelievable and it's real. It's unbelievable and it's real. And it's happening right now and then just imagine taking that 50 years. Yes. 50 years ago that was science fiction. Complete science fiction. I mean I love my example of in fact I got it into the New York Times article.

2:53:28I suppose you gave Leonardo da Vinci a garage door opener. What could he do? Well first of all plastic. He doesn't know what plastic is. Secondly when he opens it up and sees all these little tiny things. He'd never heard of electromagnetism. I mean there's no way that even okay or give Einstein an iPhone back in 1945 or something. Right. What could he do with it? So that's sort of the position that we kind of have been in to see these craft that we get access to either through crashes or quote. Donations and you know it's it's really mysterious but nonetheless. We should do our best and these days because of the development of quantum technologies and so on.

2:54:20We have better tools. We have AI on our side to move fast through some calculations and stuff. So I think I think this is the time where disclosure is going to happen. And it will definitely soon. Well it's if it does happen it's thanks to people like you that stuck their neck out for many many years. And I'm sure you experienced a lot of ridicule inside eyes. Sure did right. I fact I remember when I was involved in the remote hearing program one of my sons was attending a grammar school. And one day another father's kid came over to play with them. And when the other professor actually at Stanford came over and said.

2:55:08I brought my kid over to play with you but his last name is put off are you associated with that. Put off at SRI and that remote viewing. I said yeah yeah yeah yeah I'm and he's okay. My son's not going to come over and play with you. Oh boy. You run into that. What a run into that. But I don't know some people. Why would you want to talk to you? If that was my kid I'd be like let's hang out. Tell me how. What the heck are you doing? Anyway that's what we used to run into. Whose mindedness. But that shows how things have changed. In general when we talk about the remote viewing aspects people just say okay.

2:55:50I accept that. Now how can we apply it? And we talk about technology associated with crash retrievals. Okay fine but you know what can we learn from that how can we apply it. So I mean it's a different world we're in now and I'm really excited about it. And you know I'm not going to stop. Well I'm very happy you're out there. I really really appreciate you and I really appreciate your time. So thank you for coming in here and talking to us. Certainly welcome and I appreciate the fact that you're willing to be pursuing these frontier areas and bringing them to a large audience. That's a real gift I really appreciate.

2:56:24Well it feels like a gift for me because it's so fascinating and I've been obsessed with it my whole life. As I think a lot of people are who look into it at all and realize there's something of substance there. Right. Well thank you how. Thank you. It was real pleasure. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

2:56:51Bye.