#2328 - Luke Caverns

46:28I mean we're really approaching A time when independent people are going to start making Real noticeable differences and not just in the digital space that where people are interested in rabbit and the physical Exactly exactly. Yeah Jimmy so meticulous to him. He's such a good representative Because he's really intelligent and really thought provoking But also really honest about what he knows and what he doesn't know and he has counter arguments to his own points He'll tell you something and then but also it could be this and this is what we know and because he's been really careful in The way he expresses himself He's established this community that understands what he does and they trust him and they go no no He's gonna tell you the truth.

47:15He's gonna tell you what we know and why we know it He's not gonna make any weird ideological leaps. He's not gonna make any weird judgments He's just gonna lay out what is fascinating about these things and Because of that you whether he has a degree or not a degree that that guys have an massive impact I mean, I don't know how many what is bright and deny that what is bright insights youtube channel have for subscribers And it by the way if you haven't watched any of his videos Can't recommend them enough love the guy love the stuff 1 .7 by the way he's been called an ozzi Which is uh that's just that's what they use that's the these are the terms you know He's been called all sorts of terrible things none of them are true.

48:00He's a wonderful guy And he's just a man who's deeply fascinated with these mysteries and when he's pointing out The things that we can on it what it's ball back and Lebanon the trillion what they call the trillion stone Stoll stones What what whatever there's a certain things that you can point out that people go okay What the fuck like he gets to the what the fuck stuff where everybody's like okay, what else you got? You know like how come I didn't know this how come this isn't like something like we were talking about ancient history the history of Whether it's Lebanon or Egypt and when they start talking about these things and they lay out the Histories of the pharaohs and why aren't you Talking about the distance they carried these fucking enormous 80 ton rocks through the mountains and how they cut them like why that's the mystery Yeah, this is the big piece of evidence that these guys just want to dismiss.

48:58Oh, oh What's the national project? You know like okay? Yeah, but that doesn't say how you did that no five thousand years ago You need to help me out here. Yeah, yeah, and when these openings exist and guys like Jimmy run through them But meticulously document things and talk about them with humility and talk about them with a general understanding of the absolute Undeniable facts and then it creates This enormous audience and then because of that enormous audience. It's a huge impact. Yeah on actual archaeology and that's why they hate them It's just because he's doing their job better than they're doing their job Because he's not Trapped he's not stuck in this compartmentalized Ideological position of working for a university.

49:47Yeah, and he doesn't have to worry about funding And he doesn't have to worry about you know being chastised by his peers because they're all bunch of bitches He doesn't have to worry about that so he's free and there's a bunch of those guys that are emerging now and guys like yourself And I think that's really important Because the gatekeepers have been wrong every step of the way with almost everything whether it's medical science whether it's health and nutrition Whatever it is like we they've been wrong every damn step of the way So maybe open it up. Yeah, just like the internet opened up information to everybody We need to open up the exploration of information to everybody and not have it contained with a few people that have degrees from places that we know are Ideologically captured we can see how they behave we can see the things they say and the way they do things and the way they act and the way Even the way they affect enrollment Based on race agenda and sexual preference like you guys are fucking crazy This is not how you're supposed to handle knowledge and information.

50:48This is a dumb approach And we see that through basically every place where there's a few group of people this isolated Insulated group of people that has the ultimate Influence over whatever particular field of study is their specialty. It's just a danger that the human ego and the human mind Fall prey to almost every single time The internet what it's done is it's like this great equalizer and it's just it is allowed people to have these And you hear a lot of people saying you shouldn't do this you shouldn't be doing this Don't do your own research and don't like those are stupid saying so you can't think like that You're just gonna be people that say things that are absolutely ludicrous and you have to be able to listen to them And then listen to people that are more intelligent and more rational and also objective and go that guy is That's what I'm interested in I'm interested in this guy.

51:47I know he's not gonna lie You know, and there's too many instances of archaeologists just lying lying and attacking each other when one of them like close first like that. Yeah, yeah Well attacking each other this episode is brought to you by farmers dog It doesn't matter how old your dog is it's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness And thankfully the farmers dog makes it easier than ever to feed your dog a healthy diet of real meat and veggies Dogs prefer their food even picky dogs and owners prefer their service if you have a question about your dog your plan Your delivery or anything else they have 24 -7 customer service that connects you to real humans who are genuinely interested in providing the best experience possible for you and your dog They give you detail instructions on how to transition your dog to fresh food and even pre -portion it for your dog specific needs feeding your dog healthy human -grade food shouldn't be complicated and with the farmers dog it isn't The entire experience from box to bowl is a breeze So try the farmers dog today and give healthy Freshly -made food a try you can get 50 % off your first box of food plus free shipping Just go to the farmers dog calm slash rogan tap the banner or visit this episodes page to learn more Offer available for new customers only this episode is brought to by zippercrooter in a survey 76 % of employers plan to grow their teams in 2025 Now that we're halfway through the year How are those hiring goals going?

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54:25I mean, I just experienced this the other day um, you know, so I had a And I guess being early on in my career. I'm passionate about so many different things and I'm the kind of person It's like oh, I'm passionate about this. This is what I'm going to do and so I applied to the University of Athens and Greece and I I was really into the classics and and I was going to go for that and then I just had this Let's just say I was in the jungle and I had a mind -opening experience and I was reminded of the fact that My purpose here the reason I started doing all this was Continuing kind of like my family's legacy and I'm interested in a lot of different things And I'm not going to specialize.

55:04I'm not going to like hunker down in this academic path or whatever and so I just decided I'm not going to go through this. So I start um, you know publishing You know content in my research on the Americas again and in the Americas are very mysterious. It's uh, I mean Very comparable to Egypt with just in the amount of questions that haven't been answered is insane and the old my world is fascinating and so you know, there's uh uh, you know Graham in and fingerprints of the gods he talks about how the the uh the um the omics he thought that they may have like like Like African features and of course that was 1995 and so uh, I don't know 2015 you guys are talking and and he's like he's like well, you know, I published that then but DNA researchers come out that says that You know, these people don't have African DNA in them and that maybe this is Polynesian maybe this is Australasian people intermixing and that's why they have this unique look whatever But in the old mech world there's this monument that is actually called El Nigro and you look at it and it's not an old mech It is an African man and um, and so I approached about this somewhere on my ex account And I just kind of like list everything I've seen in the old mech world and I'm like, you know, this is really fascinating Maybe this is evidence of Africans who were in um, who were in the old mech world And I hadn't seen this monument before I saw it in person because you go in the old mech in the old mech realm in in uh The region in mexico and you go to these museums and you look at the the the log or the ledger the people have been on And nobody nobody has visited this museum in the last four months and before that it was the oh six months before that And these monuments just kind of sit underneath these metal roofs, you know to protect them from the rain and it's like this Just this completely lost civilization.

56:47Is there an image of this that's available in one? Yeah, yeah Yeah, there we go. There we go So if you pull up an old mech head you'll see that these guys are very different looking and especially if you can get yeah, yeah, there we go um Look at uh Okay, so that's uh, yeah, okay, so that's a regular old mech head so you can see that these are two different races of people um, you know that the old mechs have very soft features round faces big eyes big lips kind of big noses They have very soft features and this El Nigo monument has these high cheekbones this defined jawline This isn't there a lot of variety just in like let's just say Italians Oh, yeah, so it couldn't just be someone who's on a a spectrum of features that I mean I don't think it's that much different.

57:35You don't think so well. No, and I'm looking at it I could I mean I could imagine like there's like I said it just you know my national Italian So there's a talent that's very thin Faces and there's these big thick ones and like yeah people vary quite a bit There's enough similarities that I could say all those could be the same people Well, the only counter I give to that is when you when you visit the old mech realm You see a lot more than just the heads you see a lot of old mech faces dozens and dozens and dozens of them Maybe well over a hundred and when you've seen them all and you kind of get a gist of like the way they generally look This guy will really stand out like I took a like a group of students there and we all as soon as we all came in and saw it Based on everything we've been seeing for the past week it immediately stood out to us.

58:20Well certainly the thick brow is unique Well, in the in the uh or wearing helmets and in that that that hair as well. It's kind of that. It's kind of that that curly hair And or at least it it looks like it to me and so um so anyways, you know He could he could be old mech. I don't you know my identity is not tied up and what I think this is or you know Omek could be African like very very clearly if that one on the left Easily could be an African man which one this guy right here did this one the one next to the white one to the left of that To let you right there it easily could be an African man.

58:54It certainly does look that way But I was on a I was on a plane to Mexico a couple months ago and I was going into the old mech realm And I look I was like I wanted to take a picture of this guy and look to the left of me and he was an old mech man Sitting next to me and he was he was you know, he looked like he didn't look like any mech skin have ever seen There's something there with the DNA of the old mech people That is definitely connected with Something else that that you don't see if you go to the my realm that you don't see if you go to like mech's co city They have something in their DNA.

59:26They have this very specific look about them I don't know exactly what it is But I'm like looking and I'm like this old mech guy next to me so fast name because it clearly could have been African explorers What made it yeah, well, I'll tell you what um, could we look up? Uh, gosh look up the traveler old mech monument if you would please Jamie um It's the traveler I want to call him I think he's monument 13 now. There's another one called monument 19 that we should look at But he's this man that's very clearly not Uh, there we go top left the one that's on reddit In fact, this might be my post on reddit.

1:00:03Yes. Yes, sir So this guy right here. All right, so this is really really fascinating. So what's diagnosed this all right? So flags flags are invented is very unknown fact flags are invented or the first place that we have evidence for is along the Nile Valley On these pre -dynastic pots Which they're not the not the stone vases But just like clay pottery they would make little paintings on them and people have these riverboats that have these flags on them and the flags would say What city you had come from or what village you had come from and so that so flags are an old world thing We don't have any evidence of flags in the new world.

1:00:42All right. He's also wearing a turban He's got this big turban that's draping off the back of his head and he very clearly has this distinct Beard that's popping out now native Americans Sometimes they can you know, they are uh, they're asiatic. They have they have asian dna and um and asians don't really grow Typically sometimes they'll grow the little like stash and a little bit of a beard here But they don't have that big thick beard that you would see You know like in europe or along the Mediterranean in the middle east and so this guy is this big thick beard And then he's got boots on his feet as well And we think that these are these uh glyphs that you see to his left and right And these are really really early olmeck uh glyphs and they interpret that foot to the left as saying that he came from somewhere He was a traveler and so um The thought here is so this is this is around 900 BC give or take a little bit They don't really they really have no idea when these when these are made like you go to all the monuments And it says made somewhere between 1500 BC and 400 BC and they'll say 1500 BC and 400 BC And so they really are uncertain about how old lot of these monuments are big again But if we if we shoot for a dead center 900 BC The the Phoenicians out of the Mediterranean are launching these sailing expeditions around the coast of Africa These are the ancient worlds greatest sailors that we know of and um and so there are There were like experimental archaeological or scientific I don't know Expeditions done that show if you would send one of these Early iron age boats or if you send any ship out of the Out of the the gates of Hercules or the straight of Gibraltar and you send it out into the Atlantic Just in it it drifts just a little bit too far without turning south along the African coast It will be carried by a current across the Atlantic Ocean down into the Bahamas the Caribbean and straight into the Gulf of Mexico And if that had happened If people who had looked like it they're in the old world like this guy if that had happened And Somebody from the old world that the largest civilization at the time the empire in this area would have been the Olmex And the the reason I feel so strongly about that is because we do not have flags, turbines or boots in the in the ancient Americas This guy looks nothing like a Native American and the flag, turbine and boots are all old world Features, you know, it's fascinating to me too the image on the lower right of the birds head looks very similar to the carvings on Go backly tapy Doesn't it?

1:03:20Yes, very the curve of the beak. That's not how birds beaks look like that's this a very distinct style of artwork Well, and it's you can find the images of the birds from go backly tapy. It's this it's this raised relief art style So people talk about it a lot with with go backly tapy. I mean think about this. This is this is 11 ,600 years ago and you have You have artisans and stone masons who have been practicing for so long that now they're able to take a blank piece of stone and carve the face off to reveal the artwork from underneath it Not carve the artwork into the stone, but carve the stone away and reveal this sculpture from underneath How similar does that look?

1:04:03It's bizarre right real similar and so it's the it's the exact same kind of Art style that you see in the Olmex realm exactly the 3d Stone carvings instead of carving it directly into the stone carve the stone around it They're both doing the same thing that takes a lot of time I mean how a lot more imagine weird weird stuff It's also like the idea that this is documenting time Then you know the the the handbags or whatever those things are what it what it actually is is the sun going over the earth You know I have I'm writing a paper about this But this might be a good place to talk about it So you know the the handbag mystery is very fascinating.

1:04:48We have them in Assyria. We have them uh Mesopotamia I as far as I know I don't think one's been found in Egypt You can you can see them on the top of those tea pillars and go beckley tepid And there's one on the Olmex realm are you familiar with this? Monument 19 if if we can look that up. I mean dude it it I think it's the coolest handbag And when I saw it in person I like jumped uh, I had been waiting Where's the same thing? My Olmex monument 19 that so this guy he's wrapped in He's he's sitting in Ketzel He's sitting in Ketzel koat if you could you do the one at the top level where we get the full picture?

1:05:26There we go. So this stone is probably about this big It's probably about this big and it sits on a table like this So he's sitting inside the feathered serpent Ketzel koat And so he's sitting inside the feathered serpent and he's holding this handbag And I'm not sure so he has this uh, and if you can if you see he has a feathered serpent mask around his head as well I'm not sure what exactly is above him there. Well, they're actually two It's really hard to make it out But what's above him that little box -looking thing is some kind of box that's being held up by two birds on each end But the important thing here is the fact that this is the first depiction of the feathered serpent in all of Mesoamerica that we know of and it's uh It might be the oldest handbag known as far as like what we have official dates for and so the idea here is that he's some kind of sacred shaman bringer of enlightenment bringer of knowledge something like that And so I had been on the hunt For another handbag everywhere I go.

1:06:25I'm always looking for handbag. I was in Cambodia a couple weeks ago I'm going around the temple of Encore Watt and there's Hyroglyphs and and uh and Carvings all over the wall. So I'm looking for a handbag. I can't find one but when I was in um when I was in central mexico I was at a site called Kakashla and I found another handbag person I've never like officially published it. It's all my ex if you'd want to look it up What does the timeline for that one? They don't really know when you look at the monument. It says It says anywhere from 1400 BC to 400 BC. That's just what they think. I mean the old mech the old mech realm is so uncertain and um And we don't have hard dates for almost for almost anything they appear on the historical on this historical timeline is a fully fledged civilization capable of creating what you're seeing from the very beginning just like so many civilizations It's like as soon as they arrive on you know as soon as they arrive in the world they're doing everything to the fullest capacity and We don't have any evidence in the old mech realm of them Working their way towards being able to do things like this is just from the very beginning They're able to make monuments like this move these 50 ton all mech heads the largest head is this you'll find this interesting um so There was a nautical engineer that mech which is an organization.

1:07:45I'm with it's the Maya exploration center It's run by dr. Ed barnhart. I'm a member of it and And one of the guys that worked with us Travelled into the old mech realm. He's a nautical engineer. He's fascinated with um He's fascinated with how were the old mechs moving these huge heads up and down these rivers So they live in like the rivers swaps they have to cross some mountain ranges. How are you getting these heads? 90 miles away From the Sierra Deleutusula volcanic belt. That's where they're pulling the basalt from because we found unfinished heads Like at the base of these big basalt quarries and they're transporting them 90 kilometers away through You know like I was saying rivers and valleys or kilometers.

1:08:25I think it's kilometers It's kilometers as the crow flies. I'm pretty sure and So much further when you're actually dealing with the complications of the terrain and And so he was fascinated like okay How did they get them to the river and and then when how did they get them on the boat and when it's on the boat How does how exactly does this work of their transporting it by boat and kind of the same mystery in Egypt too right like how how do the new Wences of these things work so he devised this Algorithm or whatever where you could put in the hypothetical size of your omek raft and put in the hypothetical size of an omek head into this database or whatever and When you made a raft that was too big to go down the narrow stretches of the co -ets calco's river Which is like the omek's nile river When the raft was too big and too wide to actually go down the river and you put a five ton omek head on it It would sink that raft But the smallest omek head is six tons and the largest one is 52 tons So how are they how are they doing it?

1:09:29And this is something that like all archaeologists have quietly known this idea of they're just being transported on these simple balsa rafts Must be wrong. It's you know, it's it's unexplained. How are these things being done? And I just find this realm really fascinating wow It is right and then when do they even know what language they spoke? No, we don't know what language they spoke. We don't even know what they called themselves The only reason we call them the omeks is because Cortez 1519 to 1521 he's moving through Mexico to conquer to no cheat law in the Aztec capital During this time you have these spanish chroniclers.

1:10:06They're taking in information You know taking in information, but not at the rate that everything's being destroyed You know all these people are dying from this disease and influenza and There's a record of what the people who lived in the Olmech region are called at that time in 15 1520 let's say and Aztecs called them the Olmechs in their language nawhattle and those Olmech people the the name means the rubber people or the people of the land of rubber They produced rubber and that's how the Olmechs were so rich so early on in time But these are not the people living in 1519 or not the Olmechs Already the Olmechs have fallen and there are other cultures that have arisen and fallen in this same region as well The Olmechs are far far far far into the distant past The Aztecs maybe didn't even know who the Olmechs were You know, so are you familiar with Teotibukon?

1:11:00You know the the the map the three massive we have the temple of the sun the temple of the moon and then the temple of Ketzalkoa and they form this kind of like Orion's belt alignment similar to Giza Well, you know when the Aztecs arrived in Mexico Teotibukon had been abandoned from almost a thousand years We think so when they arrived Teotibukon has already gone We don't even know the name of Teotibukon. We don't know the name of the people. We don't know the name of the city Now we know their relationship with other people around them like the Maya were at war with Teotibukon But the civilization had already fallen so when the Aztecs arrived the Olmechs had been gone for Almost 2000 years at least the Olmechs had been gone Teotibukon had been gone for thousand years The Maya had already collapsed the the Maya collapse long before the Spanish got there um, and so you know, it's just again like like the the Americas are just so mysterious and there's so much to know there and so kind of getting back to what I was saying is when I When I talk about the mysteries of the Americas I immediately get accosted by other of my quote unquote colleagues I don't have any colleagues in the academic realm, but uh, you know other academics who will like Immediately jump in my comment section on X or whatever and they'll reprimand me and they'll be like Oh, so back to the pseudo archaeology is it and I'm like so so I can't talk about anything that's fascinating I need to talk about things that are boring so you don't get upset with me and now it's just like uh the The popular audience has completely had enough of it and I'll have like 15 people jump in and yeah You know defend me and and be like to watch yeah, and they'll be like and they'll be like like you will be like you know Okay, this is a perfect representation of what you guys do I step just slightly out of this line or what you think is appropriate for me And I'm talking about things that are interesting that inspire people to be interested in the ancient world to go see these sites like these people They don't like you they don't like the people that you have on but how many people do you think you've sent to Egypt?

1:13:04You know like you had a significant impact this show had a significant impact on me being interested in the ancient world And I have traveled all over the world You know because largely, you know some of this show inspired me to do that and um And I'm probably one of the few people that found you because of Graham Hancock Yeah, yeah rather than the other way around and um and so you know I've traveled all over the world and then what I have done is inspired other people to travel around the world So, you know how many of these archaeologists that are keyboard warriors hiding hiding behind, you know a desk or whatever How many of these people are inspiring people to travel around the world and you know, it's just it's just again We're about to reach this like archaeological Wild West where I don't really know what's gonna happen in the few America's beverage companies are investing in America.

1:13:52We're American companies making American products with American workers In America's hometowns. We're local bottlers and manufacturers operating at all 50 states Employing more than 275 ,000 Americans in good paying jobs Delivering for the nation because we believe in the promise of America and the people who make it great learn more We deliver for America dot org paid for by the American beverage Association This episode is brought to you by rocket money with prices going up on just about everything lately dealing with money can be stressful Trying to manage subscriptions track spending and cut costs can feel overwhelming and luckily Rocket money can relieve some of that stress and help you feel confident in the financial decisions you make Rocket money is a personal finance app that helps you find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions Monitor as you're spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings If you've got a goal you'd like to save for rocket money can analyze your accounts to find the best time Each month to put extra money aside rocket money's five million members have saved a total of five hundred million and cancel Subscriptions with members saving up to seven hundred and forty dollars a year when they use all the apps premium features cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with rocket money go to rocket money dot com slash JRE today that's rocket money dot com slash JRE rocket money dot com slash jr sure it's you're always going to have people that are threatened by an emerging new thing And they're they're going to attack it like you know Famously in this world Howard Stern used to attack podcasts is being useless.

1:15:40Oh really? Why you waste your time? You know get a radio show figure out how to do it. This is the beginning. There are early days You know obviously you can't do that anymore But I think the same thing is happening with art with archaeologists because Flint dibbles own university that has an archaeology program. They're cutting the archaeology plus on that Yeah, which is this is why like you're in this like survival mode. There's famine mode And fam it's terrible, but famine thinking is always very dangerous Um you you see it with people that don't want other people to be successful It exists in the comedy world There's famine thinking when other people start doing better.

1:16:21They start attacking those people They never attack people that aren't doing as well some It's just a natural human instinct unfortunately, and it's a natural human instinct from people with poor character And I think that these academic institutes they reinforce poor character and they they actually encourage it poor character and the this like labeling people in the worst possible light in order to make your point Which is like ad hominem attacks. We're always a sign that your argument sucks Everybody knows that if you really understand debating and you really understand like the actual impact that these kind of conversations have on people The objective person on the outside looking at it.

1:16:58They see someone attacking someone calling them all his name unfounded And you go oh that guy's argument probably sucks like instantaneously So they're destroying themselves while we're doing this But this is you'll see this in every walk of life. You'll see this in everything It's just a human thing when they don't want to work as hard as other people or they don't have the young fire like you have Like there's a thing that people have when they're very curious and young and they don't have Maybe a lot of responsibilities or bills or problems and they can just they can devote their energy to this pursuit That terrifies people that have been kind of like half -assing it for a long time half -assing it and hiding behind These you know certificates on their wall that show that they're the these are the gatekeepers of information.

1:17:46Yeah, it's like It's not going to work anymore. It doesn't work anymore with podcasts. It's not going to work anymore with the your kind of work and archaeology It's not going to work anymore with UFO disclosure. It's not going to work anymore with any of this stuff like people are Way more interested and getting to the bottom of things and they don't trust institutions anymore Yeah, yeah, and And the institutions are are feeling the pressure of independent media You know like going back to the go -backly -tepi tree situation. It'll be really interesting to see You know like like Jimmy's in an interesting position where where and maybe there's maybe there's a way that like The relationship between independent people and the popular enthusiastic audience and you know the archaeological departments and in Turkey can have a better relationship because of these things in the future You know how that would work people like you Become the head of an archaeology department That's this is really the only way it's going to work It's like it's almost like these these institutions have to feel so much pressure and so much Disgust from the general public that they start incorporating new people into it You know sort of like CNN is trying to hire objective journals now Oh, yeah, we gotta get rid of Don lemon and Brian stelter or actually he's back But they so they they try to course correct because that's the only way to survive because it's not working What you're doing is not working from from what I can see And in the limited amount that I see and this this is the hard part is is sort of we get a skewed view into the archaeological World or the academic world and and sometimes I don't even know what's what because Because the archaeologists that make their opinions known are usually the ones with really bad opinions, you know And uh and then all the other people that are pretty agreeable They just kind of sit on the sideline right and it's hard to know like what are most people what are most these These future archaeologists what where they think where they're where's their mind at and some of the young people I talk to They are fascinated by Graham handcuck.

1:19:51They may not agree with you know like they I guess in a way I could say is They may love the first nine episodes of ancient apocalypse But in the 10th episode where Graham gives his the end of his thesis They'll be like, hmm Okay, I see the evidence differently, but this is really fascinating and some of the mysteries you pointed out along the way are valid like You know the idea of We know the the artifact record of the tools that we have that the Egyptians and the old kingdom were using does not fit the Megalithic architecture that they then produced okay. What's the answer to this mystery? Could it have been that we're missing a chapter of Of history that's before that were a different civilization did it or is there For some reason there's an artifact record that's lost to us today and so you have you know guys like Graham who will come in and And pause it well there could have been a lost civilization that that did this and then an archaeologist the young archaeologist made Disagree with a lost civilization, but they say but Graham you really pointed out the fact and made it well known that You know the artifact record that we have and how they built the pyramids that's a big mystery and how they built the pyramids That's a big mystery.

1:20:55This is worth considering and they like Graham Maybe you know, so a lot of young archaeologists at least I say a lot It's really just the ones I talked to in my spare time that are my age they're fascinated by these ideas And my hope is maybe these people become leaders someday, but at the same time like I don't know to get ahead in that world man Yeah, you gotta be a dog the world's poisoned and the the people that top are not gonna look They're gonna stay in there till they know noMchomsky's age You know this is I just think it's never gonna end in that way I think it's gotta become some sort of an independent branch like you know a break off.

1:21:32Yeah, you know Zahee is a Zahee is a really good example of what I think goes on in archaeology in Egypt You know you have a lot of different missions from different countries working in Egypt Yeah, like a German mission You have the the American mission. You know different people working in different sites I can't speak to every country that's working there. You have Australian missions that are working in Egypt digging at certain sites, but but You know When I when I watch Zahee I'm like I'm like yeah, this is the what you're seeing this is the Attitude that has been at the spear point of Egyptology for The last lifetime and and you can just imagine what goes on like I mean think about being on an Dig site with him think about working in his industry underneath him think about all the people that were a part of the Discoveries that he made that feel so disrespected and so overlooked, you know Not once during that podcast that he ever acknowledged all the hardworking archaeologists that or actually there in the dirt doing all this hard work He just took all this limelight and so you know clearly his identity is tied into What's in his coffee table book and you know for him to act like that's the bible of Giza is insane I own the book and I and I've read it and it has half of a page about the subterranean chamber in kufu's pyramid So it's it's you can write a whole book about that What's your home in interrupt keep going.

1:22:57Oh, well, I was just gonna say I was just gonna say man When you go to Egypt there are some things that you're gonna be impaled by by like the the modern Egyptian world I I Do this series on YouTube called megaliths you've never seen before and I'm always trying to like find these weird obscure blocks that you never see on Google And I'm walking around the side of the pyramid of And there's a turd on the side of the pyramid as you've entered yeah, and it's from the guard That's like sitting up on top of the hill the Egyptian guard looking down at me and I go around to To land of Kim who I'm traveling with have you heard of him before no He's he's an American that lives in Egypt and he's got his theories on on the pyramids and I'm traveling with him I was like that's like there's a turd on the pyramid over there And he's like he's like yeah, yeah, you know, and I was like a tourist and he goes no not not tourist and so you know That the poop on the pyramid is pretty much like That's kind of my that's kind of my mental.

1:23:58That's burned into my brain my image of of Egyptology In some aspects like when it's isolated Egypt I can't speak for all the other missions that operate in Egypt But more you have to say I don't remember Well, where are we at when I was gonna interrupt oh this is what I remember What is your opinion about Christopher Don's ideas? I don't know I really don't know man. I um for people that don't know Christopher Don has a theory that the great pyramid was actually some sort of a Power generator That it produced hydrogen gas. I don't know. I mean, you know, I know that That the Egyptians it's obvious that they have technology that it that is lost to us today the drill holes Yeah, yeah, the way they cut the concrete where they excuse me the granite.

1:24:48Yeah, yeah But you know, I really don't know as far as the you know like the The manufacturing aspects the the engine I guess the engineering the potential Usages of these artifacts. It's not really like my specialty like I you know like these these vases are Oh, this is a heavy one these vases are fascinating But you know, I guess my interest would be studying like what can I what can we learn about the context around these things and How they existed in their world and how people interacted with them more so than um, you know, what did these things or were they actually used for I guess and how exactly were they made and so I just don't know about Chris Dunn's theory yet, you know, I I guess the first thing it comes with my mind is like We know most the pyramid is limestone and the interior is granite I hear people talk about how like the makeup of the granite Could be conductive in some way, but man, it's just it's like the farthest thing from my set of knowledge Right, it is absolutely fascinating though because if he's accurate If he if he's on to it like boy does that change everything And if those Italian scientists that believe that there's literally a two kilometer deep structure Underneath the pyramid if they're correct Like boy, yeah, the whole thing is like what are we even talking about now?

1:26:05Yeah, I find that fascinating um I think that the the main drama around those scans was you know when the scans came out I don't think anybody was denying what was seen on the scans. I think it was like They they had the um they had the artistic interpretations of the art concepts that they produced of what they thought was in there And I think a lot of people are like whoa Yeah, that was a little weird because because even me I was a little bit like huh when they they made a They made an art concept of it and they took the king's chamber and the relieving chambers in the great pyramid and superimposed onto the middle pyramid and they they I guess quintupled it like they made five of them and I was thinking like Why why do that like you're kind of you're kind of undermining what your scan is when you're creating like a fantasy image because Um you're getting ahead of your scan.

1:26:56Yeah, you're getting ahead of yourself because you know We need to do the whole scan again, but you need to have tests so like uh Louise Alvarez are you familiar with him? He worked on the on the Manhattan Project with Oppenheimer and after the war in the 50s or in the 60s He got to go to Egypt and he scanned in the coffer pyramid He did the mouan scans and when he was in there they tested They tested it all before so he was able to scan up through the pyramid And he got the pinnacle of the pyramid and he got all four corners And so they tested it and they did it several times just to confirm that what they were getting was right and The I think the mouan scan only scanned like 19 % of the pyramid.

1:27:32This is the 60s so um But they didn't find anything but the Stanford project came the next decade and they found subterranean Chambers under coffers pyramid. There's one like 69 feet down and another one 120 feet down huge chambers bigger than the chambers inside the pyramids and so um Yeah, I mean, I guess we just have to wait and see um What's gonna happen and I know that the scanned pyramids guys the ones who found the the void above the grand gallery in the great pyramid. I know they're Interested in this now and they're gonna verify what if this is true or not and uh Yeah, I'm interested in seeing how this goes.

1:28:11This could be a big year man if they actually drill into That void above the grand gallery. That's gonna be a big deal. What do you think's in that void? I have no idea, you know, that's pretty big right? It's the size of two semi trucks. It's It's the same size or bigger than the grand gallery itself and the grand gallery when you go in it's a it's a huge building or you know, you're inside a building inside of the pyramid and um It's as big or bigger than that and you know, the most conservative explanation is that It's an open interior that served as a ramp where they were pulling the blocks up higher up to the top Nobody really knows exactly how they were built in the in the uh the angle of that grand gallery is really Really steep.

1:28:58I don't know that you could pull an 80 ton granite block up and angle that steep it seems like everyone who's an expert in in that You know who studies independently is like now you're never gonna pull oh never gonna pull weight up Um to be honest. I have no idea, you know, I'm I was fascinated when I heard an Egyptologist when I was in Egypt in January and I was asking what do you think that? They're gonna find in that void and he was like he was telling me I think that that's where kufu is buried and I was like oh, okay really? So you actually think that he's still in the pyramid and he was like yeah, I think oh I think all the rest of it was a decoy And I think that his son who's able to continue his legacy like permanently sealed him in that in that tune I was like that's that's fascinating and and I said I said you know There's other voids that they found too What do you think of those and so we're standing on this phalluca at 1 a .m.

1:29:47On the Nile and we're just you know shooting the shit and he was like he's like I have something to show you and he pulls out his phone And he was like he's like I cannot send to you, but I will show you for one second He showed me a photo of the inside of a chamber that I've never I hadn't seen before and it hasn't been published yet I'll let you know when it comes out But it's burned into my mind. It's from the floor shooting across the room All you can see is two walls meeting each other in a roof and I said I said that's in a pure that's in that's in the great pyramid He goes and he was like And he he wouldn't share he wouldn't share with me.

1:30:20I didn't want to press him too much But that was dough was fun You can't keep this fuck out here. Yeah, well you know man That's happening all over the world like this delay of of information is all over the world Do you remember the the tunnels that came out are the Maybe's in November the headlines that no Yeah, I was in November the headlines that came out about the tunnels that were found under kusko in Peru That connected Soxie Womon and they go underneath the core concha they knew about that in a long time ago Oh, yeah, yeah, it's documented In the in fall of last year I made friends with the head archaeologist at that site and one early morning at like 4 a .m He took me down inside part of the tunnels and uh, yeah, I was I was in there before it all came out and He took me into so all these archaeologists they like live on site and these are all these are all Inca people So they believe that they're studying their ancestral heritage.

1:31:19These are really good people and I'm in their You know shoddy little home. That's on the archaeological site. I mean they probably make no money And but they're just they're just so passionate about this and they feel like they're doing something that's like one of the most important things anybody in the world is doing and Have you been to Peru? No, when you go to kusko man the sacred valley It's it has something there that not even Egypt has. I don't know how to explain it really it's It's it's a sacred place. It's like the sacred valley is exactly right. It's a magical kind of place Machu Picchu Uh, you should book two days when you go because you're gonna get rained on on one of the days But you're out there on this you know 7 ,800 foot mountain top and it's so steep you cannot see the bottom when you're looking over the side of the city And you're just in the sacred place in the middle of the Amazon up in the mountains and it's just a different place man um It has a type of charm that like not even Egypt has Egypt you're gonna be blown away by the structures You're gonna be blown away by the by the pyramids and the temples But this is something else it has a it hasn't otherworldly like you feel like you're on some kind of like star wars planet when you're there It's fascinating because of the environment.

1:32:29Yeah, it's like the environment um, you know I wondered if it was When you're in kusko you're 11 ,500 foot elevation And I wondered if I was like missing oxygen to my brain and I was like whoa this place is hilarious Awesome, you know, but no, it really is amazing and the people are so nice and So anyways, it was a trip. Oh, it's so yeah, what was that? uh, yeah, I I think it's I think it was very similar to Alexandria's library. I think it was a place of study where people are studying the studying the stars Archaeostronomy is like is like the next frontier of archaeology It's a way that people it's a way that ancient people are interacting with the night sky and what they know about the cosmos You know the Maya were calculating like millions of years into the future millions of years into the past And they had this numerology system.

1:33:17It's just amazing But anyways, so I'm at so I'm at so I'm at soxay will mon and they take me into this back room and uh, they show me all these bodies that they pull I probably shouldn't be saying this but we're uh, they show me all these bodies that they pulled out of the tunnels and it was these It was these they thought that they were like sacred guardians of Whatever is inside of this tunnel and these are all buried at Soxay will mon so there's like skulls everywhere There's boxes and all these bones There was a there was like an obsidian Mirror with like a little stick on it a bunch of gold artifacts in this room It was just boxes upon boxes of hum boxes upon boxes and I haven't seen any of this stuff published yet So this is how much of a delay there is on archaeology and um, what is the delay in that stuff?

1:34:02Because it would seem like such an enormous discovery This episode is brought to you by Manscaped look if you like me You've decided to embrace the bald lifestyle this summer Then you already know a clean dome is a powerful dome And that's why I got to tell you about the dome shaver plus from Manscaped this thing is a game changer They've engineered it just for your scalp not for your face or your junk your head It glides smooth as hell no razor burn no weird patches just clean bad ass baldness And the dome shaver plus features for stainless steel rotary blades designed with skin safe technology To reduce nicks and cuts delivering a perfectly bald look While it's innovative flex adjust technology assures every blade adapts to the angles of your head and stays close to your scalp for a precise finish Plus it's waterproof So you can take it straight into the shower the dome shaver plus is basically the easiest way to stay cool and look Bad ass bald all summer long try it risk -free with Manscaped 30 day money back guarantee do yourself a favor go to Manscaped .com Use the code rogan15 at checkout and get 15 % off your entire order Again, that's code rogan15 for 15 % off your entire order at Manscaped .com own the summer own the dome This episode is brought to you by paramount pictures new film the naked gun There's comedy and then there's the naked gun.

1:35:27It's in a league of its own If the trailer is anything to go by this new film does not hold back Liam Nieson is Frank Dreben Jr Sun of the celebrated police squad lieutenant from the original films Let's just say you've never seen Nieson like this nor Pamela Anderson or Paul Walter house A must -watch on the big screen the naked gun only in theaters august 1st Yeah, it's um what I think it is is Well, you kind of have I would I would say it's a mix of a lot of different things um, let's say let's say the most non -malicious side is that these countries are totally dependent upon tourism and they want to prepare like a media You know like a big media buzz to drive tourism so they want to do it at the right time of the year And then it'll inspire people to book their trip down down to the sacred valley, you know, it's all It's about it's a money -making machine right?

1:36:24It's it's it's their biggest draw to come and see this part of the world It seems so counterintuitive because new discoveries would make people want to visit Yeah, yeah, they just want to hold it off to like the right part of the year. This is this is something I've heard improve This is something I've heard in Egypt you know the Do you remember The tomb of tutmo's the second that was just discovered recently? I heard about that so let me think that that came out two or three months ago And when I was there in October I had heard that that it was that it was found So so these things are happening way way in events now the other side is there's sort of this zahilas effect like like Ed Barnhart my professor mentor he wanted to study um in Peru whether or not the Inca or ancient Peruvians are like fusing these and to cite stones together So you've seen how they how the stones like fit together in the same way that they do at the valley temple in Egypt They're red granite so they're using this gray and a site It's which is sometimes the andesides harder than the granite in Egypt and They're like morphing these stones together at impossible angles You know, I'm sure you've seen the 12 -sided stone and you maybe you've seen the scoop marks on the side of the stone Where it looks like the that outside of the stone was softened at one point and you feel like scrape a piece off and so it's it's Dr.

1:37:46Barnhart's idea that somehow Um, well, and it's not without evidence so in the Chilean desert The Inca are building upon the Inca Empire were building upon roads that went all across South America And these roads weren't initially the foundations weren't laid by the Inca they may have been improved by the Inca But they go back to the warry empire which predates the Inca and it almost certainly goes back further than this The southernmost point of these highways It goes off into the Chilean desert into the Otacama desert and they just kind of disappear into the desert and for a long time It's been a mystery of what the heck are these Peruvians doing Down in the Chilean desert.

1:38:24What is it down there? What's a resource that they need? But there are these um, there are these acid deposits that are down in that desert and uh Somehow they they invented Somehow they invented this clay pottery that Whatever they use to make it the acid wouldn't melt through the pottery so you could carry it Uh, there's evidence of this at T1aku as well, which i'm sure you've heard of T1aku T1aku Um, there's evidence of this of this acid at T1aku and people would talk about uh, how the um how the acid could like melt the stones and sometimes you talk about how like bird poop or bird um I don't even know like throw up or whatever could could melt the stone and so there's all these you know ideas that were these myth myths about the stones melting Anyways, dr.

1:39:05Barnhart's idea was that was that those roads go down there because they are mining and collecting the acids and they're bringing it back And they're softening the outside of the stone and rather than carving the stones to fit together They're setting the stones on top of each other and it's creating its own morph if that makes sense The stones are morphing together and so he There's two Reasons but you see them a lot as to why he thinks this um There was an earthquake in 1650 that destroyed the Spanish city that was sitting on top of the Inka city of Kusko So you have this ancient city that's there and the stones are so massive the spanish couldn't tear them all down So they just gave up and they built new buildings over it and 1650 this horrific earthquake knocked down the spanish city and ancient buildings were still there hadn't moved at all In 1950 another earthquake happened knocked down the spanish city and the uh the ancient city is still standing So now these are preserved as you know cultural heritage monuments and they don't build over them But they like like a starbucks or a kfc or a McDonald's will be built inside of an ancient Inka building You'll walk in and it's like a megalithic stonework inside of kfc.

1:40:12It's amazing Wow, but it's everywhere. It's the whole city. It's the whole modern city when you go one day You just walk walk walk walk walk walk one of the projects we're gonna do for the Maya Exploration Center is I'm gonna go down to kusko for a month and I'm gonna make The world's first map of where all the stones actually are there there is a map that tourists get But it's a shitty map. It's not even accurate So that's one of my projects is I'm gonna map all of these stones and where they are around kusko And it'll be like on an app or a website or something where you can find it um But yeah, it's it's just uh it's incredible So they preserve the stones and so when you're walking around getting back to why do we see some images of the stones?

1:40:52Yeah, yeah would indicate that they they possibly were melted like what's like the best man How could you search this up? Uh maybe just look up kusko Cyclopian stones we may be able to find an image and I could show you something on my phone I know I've got it on my phone okay um Maybe I could send it to you, but I'll actually send it to you And uh So so some of these are from socks they will morn Okay, so it's the top left here So that's the 12 -sided stone. It's on this building when you walk around this building The name is escaping me right now. It's the palace of it's the palace of something um When you walk around this uh when you walk around this building You're gonna see some of the stones where an earthquake has separated so you have two stones that sit perfectly on top of each other Well, and when an earthquake happens one of these stones will slide back and when it does You'll see an angle that ramps up like this up to the exterior And so what it looks like is the stone is placed on top and it smushed the stone down does that make sense?

1:41:51um Man I I if we searched hard enough we could find it here. I will send you this photo. I've got it on my phone um Yeah, uh yeah Just that idea And so it melted into place. Yeah. Oh, okay um So So they cut these stones used to ask this is the theory. Is that it right there? No So they cut these stones Use the acid and set them in to seal So that there's no gap in between the stones So it's not that they have to carve it perfectly Mm -hmm, but rather that the weight of the other stone they get it roughly the right shape And then and then lay them down on top of each other um It's on it's on one of these walls So that one you have your cursor on that's fake.

1:42:40I walked up to it and it's like hollow. I was like tapping on it It's just a fake wall It's some I don't know why in kusko they have some they they some people will decorate their walls as to make them look like those Like clothing walls and you go knock on it and it's like plastic But there's tons and tons and tons and tons the majority of the city is just the ancient city What is this? I think it's stone monument. It represents that. It's just like someone cut out like piece of it Yeah, somebody went up to it in the middle of night like a drunk tourist and started hitting it with a hammer The 12 -sided stone which is like the most sacred stone in kusko Yeah, yeah, okay, so you see this long uh the stone of the 12 angles that I went over there in the middle That stone is in that alley right there if you could find it But you know, I'm so crazy.

1:43:24There's a building on top of that Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so weird about it like look at this stupid house. That's falling apart That's on top of these ancient stones Yeah, it's it's crazy man. It's uh it's an amazing place you'll walk around and just be consistently stunned By the amount of stonework that's there and what they are able to achieve and this kind of cyclopian stonework where the stones I'll have these you know no two stones are exactly alike um You you see that stonework in one place in Egypt, which is at the the valley temple Next to the sphinx and you don't see that as far as I know recreated anywhere else, but in Peru it's everywhere Wow, yeah, so that's kind of a repaired wall you can see that the it fell apart and they put it back up But these are these are mortarless buildings.

1:44:19Oh, hey, uh go go if you go just one below the one that you're at right now So this is the temple of the moon at Machu Picchu. Look at the size of the of the stone wall That's one stone on the lower on the lower part of it And you can see that the size of the stones that are together is as earthquakes have rattled the city The wall still kind of holds together it bends and holds together a completely mortarless. It's just fasting and on top of that um Machu Picchu itself 60 % of the Megalithic construction work is in the foundation of Machu Picchu. So it's underneath what you're seeing and uh and there are areas that are roped off where you can go down Like underneath the city, but it's all roped off and and I I don't know a lot about it Um, I got I got a little bit of a photo of where you can go down into these I don't think I think they're like man -made labyrinths that are underneath the city, but there's a lot more there And so when you're there, you just get this like intrigue and uh and I was curious how Egypt would stack up because I did uh I did Peru Last year and then the day I landed from Peru I headed off to Egypt for a month and then um damn what a life Yeah, it was that's it you got a great life dude.

1:45:29That's cool. Yeah. Well, thank you. That's really cool. It's just uh how far is this from naska Very far Peru is deceivingly big. Peru is like Half the size of the United States. Really? It's really really big wow. Yeah. Yeah. I had no idea Yeah, the naska lines are really really really far away um it's very hard to do a You can't do a tour of like all of Peru. It's too big It would be like it would be like if you were going to go on a United States tour You'd have to pick a place to go because it's just so massive Usually when people like do a tour of Peru they'll pick like paracas naska You know you pick these desert coastline areas and you go see that because to get from there to the sacred valley is quite a journey Yeah, yeah, it would take you takes like a day and a half of consistently traveling to actually get there Have you seen a new scans of the naska lines where they they found new petriplis?

1:46:27Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, the um Man, there's gonna be so much like that that's gonna be found people are gonna be able to do all that stuff fly these Well, you know, it's it's amazing like how exactly One what's the inspiration for making these giant uh You know the sophistication is in the planning and the math behind how exactly you make these How exactly you make these images in the ground that are Miles wide and very intricate like if you look at the spider the spider There's a spider there that's anatomically correct for a local spider that's there And there's some aspect about the spider a detail that they incorporate that you would only know if you were like really studying These little creatures and wanted to recreate it on a massive scale But the legs man they're they're mapping.

1:47:11I mean look at this is this is an enormous thing in the ground That if you don't have flight you're never gonna be able to know that you did it that you did it precisely right or unless you had very meticulous planning and everything But again, what's the inspiration for this? What's the inspiration? Why would you be doing this? What is this for why does it have that one leg that hooks off to the left? I don't know see that that one lengthened piece Very strange. Well, you know the noscow they The exact timeline of their civilization is a little bit blurry But I mean they had they had disappeared more than a thousand years before the Spanish arrived Jamie can I ask you what what is that all about?

1:47:52Why does it have all those additional lines? Don't as someone's doing different I don't know just art. Yeah, I think they're making it on Maybe one of those sand tables or something like that. That would be a cool t -shirt Um There's other weird ones like the one that looks like an astronaut. Yeah, he does I actually think that that's a I think actually think that's a pulp align which is It's a different culture that does the same thing if you if you look up pulp aligns you maybe So there's quite a few of them look at that one the jester one the one with the antenna the upper left. Oh yeah, look at him No, no, no, no, yeah, there it is like that one.

1:48:27Where does that come from? Make it a little smaller. There you go. What is that? And what is it? What's that? It says AI on oh are they? Well, this is okay. I'm sorry. This is the AI Look at look at the shark look at a shark on there Isn't that cool so you have seafaring dude? Okay. Do you know of Venapu in in uh Easter Island? It's I think it's called Venapu It's this platform building that on Easter Island with all the big heads That is the exact same architecture as what we're seeing in Peru These people are traveling out into the Pacific Ocean and back You know, it just it's it's fascinating man.

1:49:06Uh Thor Hiredol with Kanteke he proved it. Yep. There we go Yeah, so you know, it's fallen apart. It's not the same stone. It's uh It's a local volcanic Sandstone I think I don't think that this is basalt. What might be basalt? But it's a volcanic it's a volcanic stone. I'm actually pretty sure it's basalt. It's made out the same thing of the Easter Island heads So you have this Venapu, but Another project that that my exploration center is working on later this year is we're going down to Make a new updated map archaeological map of Easter Island, Rappanui and I'm not going but this dr. Barnhart doing it in There's another site down on the remote end of the island where there's another structure like this that you never see mentioned and so that we're going to document that and put that out So there's no doubt that I mean these people are incredibly advanced incredibly connected incredibly intelligent And it's just so mysterious um, okay, do you know of the blife lines?

1:50:07Have you heard of this? Blife, California. There are there are noscalines up there really yeah. Yeah, we should look this up Yeah, so where's blife? Oh, I think it's right before you get to Nevada You're like driving so if you if you uh, you'll pass right by it if you're driving from Las Vegas in the California. I think Um, so blife lines. Yeah, we should yeah, we should zoom in from Google Earth. This will be cool Where's the chairman? It's on the 10. It's on the 10 I'm trying to write where my cursor is so oh, so that's blife, California. You might be able to look at blife lines I did but I was trying to show you where it was oh, sorry So these are the whoa yeah, they're huge whoa So dude, this is not the fuck is that this this is I mean to me it's pretty obvious That there are people who are and uh, this is they think that this is younger than the noscalines But even if it is it's pretty obvious to me that you have traders and you have people who are Very capable of traveling all up and down the Americas.

1:51:15It's all interconnected and I Many of these lines exist It's it's not really um majorly studied But I think that there's a few of these of these images that are out there and more that are further off into the desert that some people have One of them was a monkey. Yeah, how do they even know what monkeys are? I'm trying to go in the air. Well, uh, okay, here's that's a great that's a great question They're were there monkeys in California? No, I doubt it, but there are um An idea of how this could happen is so at teotibicon like I was talking to you This is an hour north of mexico city There were monkeys that we have found that were in zoos in teotibicon like like dead monkeys that are buried and this species of monkey is only found in the southern Amazon so it's all the way up in northern mexico.

1:52:01So all of these things are connected. Okay another another Uh, uh, Jamie could we look up? Uh, please? Clear to that one was a noscal and the monkey was not in the California. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. That makes it came up Okay, so yeah, yeah, yeah, those monkeys are improved well even so there are there are Amazonia monkeys that are coming on with the other Blythe lines are The article starts showing different stuff because it's explaining what they were so comparisons to now found in 1932 by pilot That's just trying to figure out. Okay, well, that's one of them looks like a giraffe There's a fence that could be a deer.

1:52:37Yeah, it could be a deer, but our deer are the our deer out there Quadruped it says well, there's deer in California for sure There's probably a mule deer in that part of the country Um, there certainly is in Nevada. Nevada has a big population at deer California's figure represents horses reintroduced Historical did sometime after the 1500s. So maybe some they don't know when these cool. Yeah, they have no Yeah, they have no idea Doesn't look like horse me. I think the tail though is a lot longer than it is. Oh, yeah a little a deer. They've got the little tail Like a shitty artist I was stumbling down something with the old mech stuff.

1:53:17I think it was the old mech Mm -hmm, there's a bunch of this guy see a zoom orbs here. It's a bunch of other weird rocks that had like Antipromorphized animals Playing on top of humans. Okay, do you know about have you ever heard of where jaguars? No, dude This is like this is my shit. Okay, so where jaguars It is another piece of evidence of at least Well the lower part of North America connecting with the Amazon. Oh, dude. This is this is badass. All right, so um So the very first some of the first evidence that we have of people in the Americas. So you think of like Where do you where do you imagine that people migrate into the Americas?

1:54:00Like where do you think we would find the first evidence at? Oh boy Well, how do managed to be somewhere where the omics were? Mm -hmm. Yeah, maybe so. Yeah, or you know Traditionally, sure, sure traditionally people think that maybe you would find it, you know in Alaska coming in uh You know people migrating over during or before after the ice age sure um or I'm sorry during and before the ice age And then some people might think that you know you have Polynesians that are skipping across the the Pacific that are coming into But most of the time it's West Coast you'd find some people think you'd find something out there Some of the oldest evidence that we have are 30 ,000 year old caves on the east side of the Amazon on the east side The opposite side of the Americas as far away as you can possibly get from you know Where people would have traditionally arrived in the Americas now that evidence is constantly changing There's constantly new things that are being found like white sands and there's what a hundred and 150 ,000 year old Like bone tools or chisels that are being found where people were cutting into woolly mammoth bones, you know crazy stuff but one of these old evidences is People in the Amazon 20 to 30 ,000 years ago on the east coast in Brazil on the Atlantic coast and they have these Uh, I think it may have been Teddy Roosevelt's granddaughter that found this She was she was a South American archaeologist.

1:55:30She was inspired to to go to the Amazon and uh so It's really interesting in the Olmech realm um There's what's called a wear Jaguar. It's just like a it's like a wear wolf spelt, you know sort of the same Um, but you have this you have these two different dichotomies in the Olmech world. You have the Olmech heads Which by the way, I brought you a head. Oh Nice more stuff for this table Sit right next to hecklefish So this is made So this is made from basalt by the modern Olmech people. Whoa That's cool. Yeah, super cool So these guys Thank you These guys we don't know who they are. We don't know exactly what they represent Um, because they're they're just Guys with normal faces, you know, they're they have Olmech faces, but they're all wearing this helmet What the hell does the helmet mean?

1:56:26It could be two different things. It's a signature of their divine like rulership Like like we think they might be kings somebody who can you know somebody who can commission a monument this big This is the testament to his power or these are revered ballgame players the Mesoamerican ballgame I'm sure you don't dove into this little bit or it's both that The You know the most masculine thing that you can be is a great Mesoamerican ballgame player And that's the king he wants to see himself out of it. It's the same thing as Marcus railius son why are we forgetting his name? The really bad emperor kind of camera's name, but anyways He wanted to be seen like hercules fighting in the in the coliseum and So we think this might be a kind of similar thing.

1:57:09There's a whole different type of people that are existing in the Olmech realm We can look up Olmech wear Jaguar, please Jamie Thank you, and There's a whole different type of person. So here's one image if you keep scrolling you'll see Images that are carved into so this is a little bit of a better image right here But sometimes when they're carved into Jade and you can see the light reflecting off of it you get a better you get a better Image of what these things really look like So wear Jaguar, Olmech and maybe do Jade. Oh, yeah, there we go top top right Yeah, check that guy out So that's a so that's a human that's not an animal.

1:57:51It is a human who has turned into the essence of a Jaguar And we see this everywhere all over the Olmech world, but they're never the colossal heads They're always in Jade or they're smaller Olmech monuments and sometimes the heads are Sometimes the heads are Are maimed like that or the head is just completely destroyed and there's these Jaguar claws Claws that are carved into an Olmech face like tearing apart its face tearing apart the symbol that's on the top of their head And so a lot of people wondered like why are these scratch marks in all of these Olmech monuments But all the scratch marks only appear in Olmech monuments that are not the wear Jaguar And so what I think this is a little bit of research that I'm doing and I'm writing a book on the Olmech right now Is what I think is there's a feud between the rulers and the shamanic class And I think that these wear Jaguar people these people who are taking some kind of hallucinogen taking a psychedelic and And basically imbuing the essence of a Jaguar and some Strange crazy way that we can't explain these are feuding with each other and when I'm in Mexico and I'm in these museums where you have these mushroom stone effigies that are all lined up I'll ask a local archaeologist there And I'll be like so these mushrooms do you think that these depict hallucinogens the people that they may have been taking to get high?

1:59:14Oh, no, no, no I'm like really you don't like you look at all the crazy shit that ancient Americans are making if you look at ancient American artwork anywhere You can tell it's all like mind bending stuff to look at they're clearly I think they're being influenced by plants Now this wear Jaguar Isn't just isolated to the old mech world it also pops up at a place called chivine day one tar have you ever heard of this? This is in the andes. It's one of the oldest cities in the andes so before chivine We can follow the DNA evidence of burials like you can tell like okay these these people are younger if we carbon date Their bodies that are buried underneath these temples and they're related to these old people that are older So you're trying to piece together this DNA web, but it's very very loose um So there's a place called uh There's a culture called kaural supe culture and uh they are building pyramids Before the old kingdom of Egypt ever even existed.

2:00:10This is this is five thousand five hundred years ago at least Uh on the coast of Peru like right on the beach and there's like 15 huge pyramids out there, but this is a non Pottery non -artistic culture so we don't have pottery and we don't have art from them and we don't have stone statues or anything like that Just these structures and from what we can tell they keep getting hit by these like apocalyptic storms these tropical El Nino's and linenias that are just destroying their civilization and they're trying to To rebuild it again and eventually they say you know what forget this we're moving up into the andes Well when they move up into the andes on chivine day one tar They then come in contact with amazonians they meet amazonians for the first time and all the sudden these people They have pottery they have art they have gods they have a pantheon they have stone statues And they are wear jaguars they they are these shaman people Oh, this is from oh, this is is this on my ex.

2:01:05Oh cool um, so So I post about this today. So these faces right here um These are on the side of the temple of chivine that faces east off into the amazon and when you look at chivine pottery It's the same as amazonian pottery in the region so the people of the andes As soon as they interact with the amazon They take they they acquire this religion this culture this iconography They completely changes the people and they start building The first structures that we know of that have interiors because before this these pyramids that were out on the coastline You're like walking on top of this big stone mound But it's chivine it's a it's a huge Square style building that you can that has open doors that you can walk in through and all of this happens as soon as they interact with Amazoneans and so yeah, so this is it's a huge structure And the the stones that make up the staircases.

2:02:06Oh my god. Okay. Have you seen um the name is escaping me right now, but uh But wandering wolf went out there Michael Collins and he found that the air he saw these big trillethon stones that are sitting on the side of the mountain Peru do you remember this? giant stones That white stone is the same white stone that's used in the staircases and on the Door jams and the lentils here at chivine so you see that the the open door right there at the bottom Yeah, so those white stones on the side Those stones may have come from that quarry that he went and visited where those gigantic, you know trillethon ballbeck size stones It's really really far from here.

2:02:44I don't I don't know that would be something good that I should know um So some of its megalithic some of its decent size. It's it's really that front wall right there with that entrance the steps going up to it And then on the inside of the temple you have the megalithic stonework and then you have this uh Then you have this monolith on the inside. So you see this guy look at that That's that's a that's a human with jaguar fangs coming out of his mouth and all of these tenon heads that are on the side of the temple They're facing out towards the Amazon It's telling us that this religion this idea of these people who are Somehow doing these shamanic practices, which I think are so clearly so obviously That is plants like ayahuasca or whatever it is Inducing these people into a state of consciousness where somehow they're taking on the effects of the jaguar like uh You and Paul Rosalie talked about this and when he was talking about his Um his experience with ayahuasca.

2:03:38I believe he said and maybe he's on this show that for a moment like he shrunk down to the Size of an atom and he's floating through the Amazon and then all of a sudden he was looking through like the eyes of a jaguar for a moment And this is something constant theme amongst people done ayahuasca. Yeah. Yeah, so this is something that I think I think it's I think it's evidence. I mean we can go we can talk about this forever But I think there's so much evidence. Oh, in this cool. Yeah. Well, there's also evidence that jaguars eat the same plants Yes. Yeah. Have you seen this on uh What is it weird nature?

2:04:10There's a documentary at their called we weird nature. The jaguar is tripping. Yeah, and uh and it's like It makes it uh it makes it akin to like catnet, but it's like the jaguar also has its own. This is why I brought this up Terrence would get out of very fascinating theory about why ketamine in particular feels like an empty office building And his his theory it's like ketamine is like you enter a realm, but there's no one there And this is by the way he's talking about ketamine in like the 80s and 90s whereas his theory is That when you imbibe when you take a psychedelic medicine when you take any court sort of psychedelic plant Mushroom whatever it is you're not just having an experience You are also interacting with all of the experiences that have never been had with these things Which is one of the reasons why when people take certain psychedelics they have very clear Egyptian iconography appears in their in their trip and His belief or his theory was that it's far more complex than you're taking a psychedelic drug You're taking this psychedelic that allows you to interact with all the experiences anyone has ever had with those Including jaguars Now also there's always been this conflict between the ruling class and this shamanic rituals This is the ilusinean mysteries shut all that stuff down Wouldn't it make sense that the claw marks would represent the battle between the shaman's and these ruling class Who of course don't want people tripping and opening their mind and questioning authority and trying to restructure everything and like It'd be a huge problem if you were like a zahi hoas guy Trying to keep the lid on everything and just keep control and power and And then you got all these people that are tripping balls that like have completely different ideas that you you have to sound that Well, what's the what's the issue here?

2:06:16The issue is these guys they get together in a circle and they drink this stuff And they start having these wacky ideas Let's put a stop to that. Let's put us the same the way they did with the illusinean mysteries the same when they've done countless times Shaman's that were like the whole Santa Claus things where he's coming down the chimney Why was that was was cuz subbarian shaman's were ostracized they were they were forced to actually not go through the doorways Because they had to sneak into people's homes so they came down chimneys. This is the theory. Oh, that's fascinating Which is like why the fuck would Santa come down the chimney?

2:06:47Like this is a mighty sense. Yeah, yeah Well, that was the idea like shout Santa's a shaman also shout Santa at least in modern depictions as the exact same coloration as the amadena Muscaria mushroom. Oh wow you've never seen that the comparison she's Santa in the mushroom The fascinating comparison and this is also hotly debated, you know They say no well a Coca -Cola was the ones that made them red and white the Santa Claus's maybe But there's old pictures of Christmas images that always include elves And amadena Muscaria mushrooms. There's old Christmas cards from like the turn of the century There's old like Merry Christmas.

2:07:26It's fucking mushrooms. There's mushrooms everywhere So mushrooms have a micro -risal relationship with coniferous trees Particularly amadena muscarias you would find them underneath Pine trees the same way you find Brightly colored presents under Christmas trees in order to drive them They would pick these mushrooms and hang them in the trees So they would air dry just like ornaments on a tree wow there's so many parallels It's really weird the Santa was a mushroom one is a weird one It's a really weird one because there's a ton of the like why are we so interested in fucking pine trees Why is it well those trees had this very connected relationship which with those mushrooms Yeah, well, you know, I find that So you find some of them ancient pictures of Christmas ancient Merry Christmas images, but this is like yeah Look that look this look at that shaman that shaman to the left go back to the scroll back look at that Siberian shaman looks exactly like the coloration wow of an amadena Muscaria now go to that Merry Christmas image That you have there right next to your cursor look at that amadena muscaria Amarie Christmas and a happy new year Amadena Muscaria image These uh women with good times christmas or these children rather with good times christmas have you ever tried these mushrooms?

2:08:52Yes Didn't work really yeah I think there's well Mechana didn't have a good experience with them either and there's there's a lot of thoughts that he had about whether or not They were genetically variable whether or not they're Gegeographically and they've even seasonally variable that you're not dealing with the same mushrooms sort of like You know there's different version like Obviously manipulated, but there's a very different version of banana that we're enjoying today. Yeah versus the wild banana Oh corn to yes, yes, so different a lot of different plants of like similar history It's what mean fungus is a very different thing right because fungus actually breathe air They're not plants.

2:09:36They're much closer to animals than they are to plant Yeah, they're real weird and they're also really weird that they seem to be like the internet for plants Like the micro rise of relationship and the fact that they have this Very bizarre network of mycelium that's under the ground like the largest living organism is a mushroom colony That exists. I believe in the Pacific Northwest. Oh really? Yeah, let's see if we find that yeah, so Instead of like saying oh, there's a mushroom that pops out of the ground No, that's like the fruiting body of the entire thing the entire thing is enormous and It's communicating with plants.

2:10:18It's helping the plants distribute and share resources It's helping them get information. It's very strange You know Paul Stammitz is like the the best guy to talk to about this stuff. He's a Mycologist and that he actually gave me that big ass mushroom at the end of the table. Oh, that's a mushroom. Yeah Weird how they're weird you know this this whole conversation here It is the largest organism on earth is a fungus the blue whales big, but nowhere near us huge as a sprawling fungus Really? Eastern Oregon. Yeah, holy crap. Yeah, and again It fucking breeze air could be as ancient as 800 as 8 ,650 years.

2:10:58Yeah Good night. Good night Wild wild stuff And you know, this is what we know about really what about what the fuck is in the Amazon? Oh my god Well, okay, okay, so two things there as far as what's in the Amazon first think about how let's just talk about North America Above Mesoamerica. So like let's just Let's just include like the modern -day United States think about all the tribes that existed here how complicated these histories are You know, Squanto is born in the early 1600s Among these tribes in Massachusetts and when he comes back he forms this thing called the Wampanoic confederation whatever whatever Just in that little area.

2:11:39There's all these different cultures with their own history their own knowledge and everything That's one little part of Massachusetts now think about the rest of the country and how vast and sprawling and intricate and how deep that history really goes and you can just You could place the United States inside the Amazon. That's how big the Amazon is And we just refer to natives tribes who lived in the Amazon as Amazonians, but it's got it's so much more complicated than just that now the next thing is This whole conversation about talking about the where Jaguar you know, I get a lot of I get a lot of flack for this for this topic because You know, you have let's just call it like boomer archaeologist who Have this knee -jerk reaction to psychedelics and hallucinogens because it's so ingrained and then that like all drugs are bad as if all drugs are the same, you know what I mean bro and I've been talking to this I was in Mexico last year and we were in the Yucatan And I was there with an archaeologist From the Midwest and he was an archaeostronomer Which is like I was saying earlier.

2:12:44It's a guy who studies the way that I think it's like Pueblo ancestral Tribes would have interacted with the night sky and study the night sky And I was like I asked him I said okay, so what kind of hallucinogens do you think they would have had and I think he told me like Pio de and cannabis and stuff like that and I was like okay, so have you ever And you know we were like every night we would we get together and we'd all smoke and just talk about ancient history and stuff You know you come up with so many interesting ideas and perspectives and points of view You know when you smoke with like an actual purpose and you're trying to you know think I'm sure you know very well I'm talking about and And so he's sitting around with all of us and he doesn't want you know He's not interested and I'm like I'm like so you was studying archaeostronomy for this long Have you ever tried cannabis or Pio de or anything that's up there?

2:13:31I think there's another one called Dittura Have you ever heard of this that one supposed to be very weird? Yeah, yeah terrible experiences with that Oh really well maybe it's completely Disassociated to he was having a conversation with a guy in a market and he realized the middle of the conversation The guy thought that they were in his apartment. Oh yeah like it does weird thing. Yeah, well it might explain why Teotihuacan civilization and all their iconography is so terrifying like if you look up The great goddess of Teotihuacan. It's these guys with handbags picking Picking this Dittura and like putting them in their handbags.

2:14:05Oh boy. Yeah, yeah That's a weird one and so they're they're whole Their whole civilization is like very dark and scary But I asked the sarcastine I just said I said okay have you ever gone out and studied the stars You know from the Native American point of view while you're smoking cannabis or you take Pio de and he's like oh, no I wouldn't do that and I'm like You have committed your entire life to studying this ancient culture that you know very well was studying the stars and taking hallucinogens and you as someone who's supposed to be an expert in this field you don't want to put yourself in the shoes of these people I was like dude if you laid out at night with all everything you know about the plebola ancestral people and you smoked weed for the first time or you Did Pio de or something you stayed up and looking at the stars you might have an epiphany about something that you've never realized because your brain Just operating in a different way than it normally does and he was very slow to like you know To be open to this idea and you know the zahi thing kind of remind me of this is like you know He has preconceived ideas about his world and his personal beliefs that interact with the archaeology You know, and so it's really hard for us to Study the ancient world from a completely unbiased point of view because you have so many preconceived ideas about your modern world that Influence your archaeology and that's why the widely Uh That's why there's no widely accepted or it's not widely accepted among archaeologists that native Americans were heavily influenced by hallucinogens I really think it's because so many of these people are you know older archaeologists They have a knee jerk reaction to drugs of any kind and they couldn't possibly fathom the reality that the culture They spent their life studying are all doing hallucinogens all the time and that's unquestionably unquestionably It's it's totally obvious.

2:15:55It's completely obvious. Yeah, but um Yeah, it's also these people that haven't had these experiences so they don't know what the effects would be Yeah, yeah, so they're they're basically just guessing yeah, and a lot of is based on just say no propaganda from the fucking ages It really is man. I was telling my I was telling my wife this like I didn't yeah, I don't smoke a lot When I do I'm like out in big band, you know out looking at the stars and stuff and every time I smoke it's like Some kind of purpose like you know, I'm in like some kind of sacred place and and I don't do anything harder than then just smoke cannabis Whenever I do I have some kind of realization about myself personally, you know like the first time uh, I don't know six or seven years ago when I first smoked I was laying up looking at the night sky And we had taken some photos out in the desert and I was looking at myself and I put on a little bit of weight And as I was looking at myself I had disassociated and I was like this person does not represent the brain that's in my mind I need to lose some damn weight, you know, I had this realization on myself the last time I was out I was out in big band laying under the stars and middle of the desert and And I had this like realization that you know all the time I spend traveling and and I get to see so many amazing Ancient sites and meet so many cool people and I'm just constantly go go go go like I'm trying to just make this life work And I had this realization that the most important thing I do is Is make dinner for my wife and take my dog on walks and I had I would have never had that like Epiphany like dude all this stuff is really cool, but it's for fun And this is the stuff that you love your purpose is to take your dog on walks and spend time with your wife And one day it's gonna be to spend time with your kids and every time I go into it with this idea that I hope that I have some kind of realization I always do and And it's just like I have this like I know that ancient plant medicine is like the key to unlocking so much of the ancient world and um and uh so To ignore the that knowing that they imbibed to ignore that knowing that it was a part of these sacred rituals It's kind of silly especially when you deal with the Amazon and Iawasca.

2:18:01Oh yeah, right? Yeah, I mean if you're gonna be in a place where you want to completely convene with nature Like that's the place like that that's the place and if you there's this Insanely profound hallucinogen You know that the brain produces endogenously that can be extracted from plants through this really weird method Where you're taking one plant that has the drug in it another plant which is a monol amine oxidase inhibitor And you're combining them together and in the perfect amount and boiling it It tastes like shit like why are you doing this like how do you want and then you when they you ask them how they learn how to do this They're like the plants taught us Yeah, I know right, you know, and then you they can take that you can take that same chemical and they'll pour it in the water and rather than fishing or You know spearing fish in the water or hooking them They pour it into the water in these little you know, they create these little canals off of the Amazon and fish Parana whatever will swim up in it and they pour that they pour that that liquid wherever that hallucinogen Isn't and it stuns the fish and they all come to the top and they only take what they need and they send the rest back Which is another reason why I don't think that Native Americans are responsible for the extinction of all the megafauna in the Americas because you know Okay, so I'm so I'm out in the woods in east Texas a couple weeks ago and we're just walking around and we're talking about the cato people Have you heard of the cato Indians before and I was trying to talk to my friend who doesn't know a lot about Native Americans Trying to like tell him Trying to give him the essence of the people and then the words came to me and I was like I was like if nature itself Took an anthropomorphic form.

2:19:36That's the Native American These are people that lived perfectly with their environment or tried to at least most of them did and Yeah, it's just it's just it's amazing man so much can be learned from that did some weasel things. I know I know yeah buffalo jumps Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, that's that's true and and I'm really speaking in generalities like like I could go on and on about all the horrific things that the Aztecs did this is just a general or the command or the command cheese The other you know, it's not like this was a it's not all like this was a utopia at all It was complete in utter war, but then again, you're saying embodiment of nature will nature's not utopia exactly Jaguar is not a lot of utopia.

2:20:17Very an analogue. Yeah, yeah very much so So you know, there's some nuance there and but uh, yeah, I just That's it's just fascinating you you had a you had a good point in a podcast. I think you were talking about Orianna His expedition down the Amazon and you were talking about how he was able to use the stars to navigate Back to Spain and you were like, well, you know, that's what I mean. That's what we're not each people But you know, that's what people used to do everybody was an astronomer How much of this experience is gone to us today? We don't sit around and look at the stars anymore And that's one aspect we don't we don't interact with you know natural plant -based, you know, hallucinogens anymore There's so many things about the natural world that we don't interact with those two are huge and particularly the one the first one the stars Because people don't even consider how much light pollution if you ask the average person with the night's An average person lives in New York City or Boston or wherever the night sky is polluted You just don't think it's polluted, but it's polluted by light and you're you're missing this Incredible majestic image of the cosmos.

2:21:26Yeah, that's so humbling that puts you in check. Yeah, for sure It puts you in check. It really does like anybody that has a diluted ego That's gonna go away if you're confronted with the Milky Way. Yeah, you have some delusions of grandeur and you're your place in every You like it. Well, it's not possible. Yeah, just look at this. It's like I am nothing. I am nothing I know I'm everything I'm a part of everything, but I am nothing and so many of these people who exist still today exist in the The natural world like the wild You know Percy Fawcett Interacting with these Amazonian tribes that still live like this today these people are still around there They're still like Paul Rosalie sent me a video a month ago.

2:22:04Oh really? Yeah, sure I'll show this video. I can't share it with the world. So haha. Sorry. I'm a gatekeeper Like everybody's a gatekeeper I guess yeah, um, but Paul Doesn't want people to know where these people are sure yeah trying to hide this stuff But he took this video while he was out in the Amazon like helping these people So this is like video from his phone God, where is it Paul Oh Oh here it is Joe, you can't share this with anybody Can't share with anybody over share with you just make sure the camera's on it Wow Man, that is crazy wild I mean you're so those people looking you're looking into the past you're looking way into the past I mean way into the past just just in your frame right there What you were looking at has existed since the beginning of time yes And that's what's interesting is that exists at the same time as you and I talking out of podcasts Where millions of people are gonna hear it and it's all electronic recording of our voice and image And then distributed Wirelessly into your phone instantaneously the moment this episode gets uploaded on Spotify People will click it and watch it on their phone instantly yeah Like all at the same time where these people are living in a home they're in the they're in the same time zone Yeah, right now same time zone.

2:23:40It's whatever it is right now. It's the same time You know and when our civilization when we all destroy ourselves and thousands of years go by and everything in the studio is gone It all turns to dust Those people will continue the legacy of humanity. Well, I wonder if those people are the preppers Of the Amazonian world Do you know what I mean like if everything did go sideways because the Europeans came over and brought all the diseases and civilization Collapsed here who's gonna live no you're you're exactly right Um, so when that's country boy can survive. That's like the Hank Williams junior song in reality You're dude you're you are exactly correct.

2:24:17I mean you're exactly correct So when the Spaniards arrive They they obviously they land in the Bahamas with Columbus 1492 But they come down to like hispaniola Jamaica and in early 1500s they start poking around on the shores of the Yucatan and And they're kind of trading and interacting with these people, you know, these are explorers. They're all curious But they didn't realize that they were giving these Native Americans disease and that disease was spreading through the mile world And maybe more than a decade later when Cortez arrives in the mile world He documents how all the Maya people are very scrawny and small and sickly and weak He didn't realize they were all dying off So eventually Cortez conquerors to no shatee lawn the Aztec capital in 1521 and he sends Uh, he sends Pizarro down to find the gold that the Aztecs were getting from South America or from this distant land They didn't 100 % no exactly what South America was yet.

2:25:11He goes down to South America And he conquers the Inca empire and then after that Orianna descends down the Amazon And when he descends down the Amazon He sees these cities that would go on for 15 miles long I mean these 15 mile long cities full of millions and millions of people these giant circular stone buildings these huge bustling civilizations and And then later on in the 1700s 1800s and then really densely in the early 1900s like with Percy Foset Theodore Roosevelt everyone Around them they were looking for these big cities that the Spaniards had seen But they didn't exist and they didn't find any evidence of it of it at all And a lot of people like like the British and the Royal Geographic Society They brushed it off as oh the the Spaniards were lying So that they could secure funding for further expeditions and this was like their livelihood the way that they could stay rich Of course then that the Lidar proves that these civilizations were there now the stuff that's been excavated in the Amazon We haven't excavated anything in the center of the Amazon.

2:26:14It's it's really expensive It's hard to archaeologists don't want to live out there Whatever whatever there's a million reasons why it doesn't happen But on the peripheral of the Amazon There are areas that get cut flat for logging like you know as civilization slowly encroaches on the Amazon they are finding these Villages that are these I mean they're basically cities that are these huge geoglyphs that are cut in the ground have you seen these In the Amazon they're they're huge Yeah, so this is some stuff that Graham was showing maybe so See if you can trust me. I think Graham has talked about this before maybe he was in America before and what should he look if he's looking for him?

2:26:51Just Amazon Geoglyphs they'll they'll come up. They're these huge squares. Yeah perfect So these things are yeah, we definitely talked about these things are gigantic and And they're all over the peripherals of the Amazon But the this was these were the preppers living on the outside They weren't living in the hustle and bustle of the you know million plus population city in the middle of the Amazon These are the guys living on the outside and they all survived this apocalyptic disease that went through they're the people live in Appalachia Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, actually I'm moving there tomorrow.

2:27:23Are you really? Yeah, I'm in the middle moving right now Yeah, so a cool place to live. Yeah, it's beautiful up there man. Oh dude. It's it's an ancient place Have you heard of the Nanta Hale Rainforest? No, oh you got to go there tomorrow It's it's it's in western North Carolina in in appalachia I grew up I grew up going to nanta hala every year my parents live in nanta hala now And it's a beautiful Completely magical place and it was it was part of what inspired this like Explore you know kind of thing in me when you're there I even as a kid I knew that this was an ancient place and turns out as an adult when I start researching it Is this pocket of green?

2:28:05I mean solid dark green rainforest in the US. We have three rainforests We have Hawaii we have Oregon and we have the nanta hala rainforest the most people will know about It's this pocket in the middle of these mountains that has looked exactly the same since before the ice age It's one of the oldest places in North America and it's just a it's just an incredibly magical old ancient place And I'm just like drawn back there But anyways, yeah, you should go you should go check that out. It sounds incredible. Yeah, yeah, you're gonna live out in that area In the appalachia. Yeah, yeah, well, well, so my my wife is So she's like from South Carolina and she came to she came to Texas when she was younger and then we met in college and My my family when we first moved to the states like my family moved to North Carolina in like 1694 or something crazy like that and And so we have some roots up there like have you ever been to Gatlinburg, Tennessee?

2:29:02No So the the first name of Gatlinburg was Reagan town and so that was where my My family would were one of the founders of that town There's an old hotel there called Reagan motel so my family is originally from there And then they moved down to Texas and started cattle rustling in the in the late 1890s But I don't know just drawing back up there. I always love vacationing there And so my wife and I are like in the middle of moving right now And so two days ago we packed up these two u -hauls drove them to east Texas to my in -laws And then we drove to Austin last night got a hotel doing this Tonight we drive back to east Texas and then tomorrow we drive to North Carolina.

2:29:36Wow. Yeah, so what is the history in terms of what human occupation of that area? Man the people sprouted out of the ground Yeah, it's it's that old man. There are That's something I'm really looking forward to getting into And I'm kind of excited in a way to get out of Texas because it's hard to study Native American history in Texas Because you got to travel so far and everything's so air like you know Austin this was this was an ancient Native American settlement here that we have built this city on top of The alamo in San Antonio was built on top of a a Native American settlement and you know all of our major cities are just a re -skin of an ancient city and in Texas It's really hard like we have the galt site that's here in That's here in Austin that proves that clove is first was wrong.

2:30:22I mean maybe you're familiar with this But up there you're closer to mound country and you know where all the mound builders are and a little bit north of that But in North Carolina It's one of the places that the spaniard tied a really hard time infiltrating because of the mountain ranges and because of how fierce The Native Americans were and so the archaeological projects up there are headed up by like two hillbillies That live in the country and they're the coolest guys they own this little department store called the called the tiger store in Haysville North Carolina and And they have dug up like Spanish armor under the ground in Spanish swords and all kinds of crazy stuff And I've gone hiking out there and oh we got we look this up Jamie can we please look up a juda cooler rock.

2:31:06It's one of the only megaliths in North America and it's this Gigantic Megalithic stone that has the same sort of art style as all the Native American stuff that we've seen And it's some kind of primordial map of western North Carolina. It's it's massive. Do you couldn't fit it in this room It's called juda cooler if you just try to spell it and somewhere you might find it there you go And there's an old photo of an archaeologist laying behind it there you go to the top left that one or maybe the one that's colorized there That one's really really pretty So nobody knows what this is and the Native Americans who are asked Some of the stories about the early Native Americans who were asked how this got here who moved it there Their stories are that giants place this and that giants used to live in this land and that they created these stones And I have gone around when I was a little bit younger I would go through the rainforest and like wandering up these hillsides and you'd find these huge Stones laying there with all of these images carved into them and Of course, you know, there's no funding that's out there.

2:32:08There's not even a there's not even a police department out there so it's it's Nothing no research is being done out there But it's a fascinating place as old as time itself and all of these people are from like a chapter before contact period Whoa, that's fascinating man. It's just a it's a very ancient mysterious mystical place It's one of those places that kind of gives me the feeling that Peru gives me when I'm out there that I'm in a very very very old place And of course, you know the Appalachian Mountains are the oldest mountain range in the world. Is there any theory as to the age of that?

2:32:46Well, I think when you go there they attribute it to They attribute it to a culture that lived in the area between 100 AD in 1080, but you know, that's just totally guesswork Wow Judicula and the Cherokee Indians. Yeah, now that you know the the hard part about The hard part about studying some stuff with Native Americans in the US is that there's a lot of like, you know Modern Native Americans They're very prideful about their culture and and you know a little bit of mythology gets gets mixed in like when you go when I go visit the I forget what exactly it's called But there's a there's a Native American Village that still exists in this area of the country and it's like operated and it's kind of a tour place where they take people through What the cities would have looked like or what the the towns would have looked like in the middle of the rainforest But the hard part is when I talked to the representatives there Which are Native American you know Cherokee people they'll tell me oh, yeah, you know the ancient people that were here They used to be six foot five.

2:33:48There were very tall people or whatever and There's no evidence behind that at all and so it's hard to like okay, we have Cherokee bodies So are these are these oral memories that are being passed down through time that come down to the Cherokee and you know as a As like a you know a modern -day American anthropologist do I brush off what they say and just be like well, you know They're they're carrying on these myths about their people. They want to build it up or are they really holding on to something that's true because Man, I would love to talk to Graham about this Okay, so you know one of the biggest things that refutes I know it sounds like I'm bouncing all over the place But one of the biggest things that that that they tried to use to refute The sphinx is age, you know about the sphinx that could date back to the time of of Leo But 10 ,500 years ago or 10 ,500 BC 10 ,500 BC is they say well There's no evidence that you could carry down the knowledge of constellations that far you've heard this before right like How do we know that people in 10 ,500 BC even recognize the constellation of Leo and and how is that knowledge carried down?

2:34:54Dude, there is evidence of this. Okay, the squared spiral. Have you seen this motif anywhere? It's uh, we can we can look it up Greek meander pattern, but you'll also see it in You'll see it in the American Southwest. You'll see it out in the Mississippi and cultures You'll see it in Mexico. You'll see it in South America Peru. You'll see it in Greece. You'll see it in Egypt Rome This yeah, yeah, this pattern. So you know a lot of times this They say that this is like uh, well when people use the term swastika The swastika is just two meandering patterns or squared spirals that are laid on top of each other That's that's what it is Yeah, so it's a squared spiral, but when you take two of those and lay them on top of each other It becomes a swastika and you and I recognize where these meanders connect because of a certain recent culture that perverted this symbol and turn it into something evil But this is an ancient symbol and it's found all over the world and It even dates back to Ukraine.

2:35:53You may be able to find this. There's an ivory Bone handle in Ukraine from like 11 ,000 years ago that has this squared spiral that that's on it So this is 11 ,000 years old found on every continent on the planet um, oh, yeah, so it's even found in pottery You can see it in pottery in ancient China, ancient Japan. It's in Cambodia It's all across the ancient world and I was asking up uh, oh, oh, I know one that we could look up Could you look at the temple of meatla in mexico? It's a temple of meatla and if we look at there you'll see it all up and down now temple of meatla is a Shamanic temples like a they think it was like a like a mecha site that people would go to It was built to last for all of eternity and of all the megaliths in all of mezzo -America or ancient mexico in central america This site uses the largest stones So each one of these lentils that you see these is like one solid piece of volcanic stone Very very hard stones.

2:36:51Okay, so you can see the squared spiral right? Can you see the step pattern that leads up to them and you can probably find another photo where you see the step pattern Leading up to the spiral so it's like it's like you're walking up steps into a spiral and it's this loop that continues On forever. I have a ton of these photos on my phone. They're found all over Peru. There we go um Now this is not quite exactly it But okay, so what this what this really is this step pattern and this motif of this spiral here is It's the big dipper in the night sky you can go look at the big dipper and the big dipper Changes over the course of the year so if you look at it as though it's not a big dipper and you look at it as though It's a staircase to a spiral that's exactly what ancient people are seeing the big dipper as and the big dipper is Spinning in the night sky throughout the year.

2:37:44So this ancient symbol is them documenting a constellation from for over 11 ,000 years Human beings have been documenting in constellation So if you're looking for the proof as to whether or not people 11 ,000 years ago were recognizing Alliant in the night sky boom. There you go. This is 11 ,000 years old Yeah, okay, so looking here. So it's a step up to a spiral a step up to a spiral and dude It's the big dipper just look at the big dipper in the future as though it's this constellation. It's the same thing Is this a theory that it's a big dipper? Is this being corroborated? This is my theory your theory This is my theory and like something I've been studying for a long time, but there are other archaeologists who They're kind of have a passive interest in this and they have said oh, maybe it's the big dipper or something But these aren't these then people if I were to go to them and be like okay, well, you know this ivory bone handle and you crane Goes back 11 ,000 years.

2:38:37So it's proof. They'd be like okay, stop. You know what I mean? So this is my theory that I have been studying for a long time and everywhere I go in the Americas I find that I find that spiral pattern everywhere and I always ask people what does this mean? When I'm in the Mediterranean I'll ask people what does this mean? I'm gonna go to I'm gonna go to Greece at the end of the year and I'm gonna ask because it's all over Greek temples And and all I ever get from Greek archaeologists is that it's a river bullshit. It's not a river and then And Latin America I get a bit better of an explanation and maybe this is maybe this is really it They think that it's like they think that it's like the the step the steps through life in the in the rejuvenation of life, right?

2:39:18So it's like it's like the big dipper has some kind of esoteric meaning with it But I I have been thinking about this and I think that this the reason that throughout all these ancient cultures You see this meander pattern in so many different Orientations as it's documenting it's documenting the flipping of the big dipper through the night sky throughout the day and And that's that's all you know, I'm trying to explain something that's 11 ,000 years old but what is the earliest evidence of the understanding of the procession of the equinoxes? God, I don't know. I don't know That's that's getting like beyond my level of of knowledge with archaeo astronomy um Some people it's grams theorized that yeah, yeah, Egyptians were aware of it Uh, I mean, I don't doubt that they're that they were Yeah, Bavol I think believe that or I know for sure John Anthony West believed that Yeah, I don't know man.

2:40:11I mean The procession of the equinoxes that takes at least what 12 to 24th it's other 12 or it's 24 ,000 years to be able to full cycle If we wanted to investigate an ancient culture that's possible Of being able to document this it'd be worth looking into if the Maya were aware Let's explain to people what it means So what it means is that the earth as it spins it doesn't spin perfectly like there's a pin at the top and the pin at the bottom And it spins like a globe it spins in a wobble and that wobble is a 24 ,000 year cycle The earliest understanding of the procession of the equinoxes typically credited to Greek astronomer How do you say his name?

2:40:52Hipparchus? Oh, yeah, Hipparchus. Hipparchus in the second century BCE Around 130 BCE. I bet you he did it in Alexandria too Aparchus noticed the position of the equinoxes the points where the celestial equator intersects with the elliptic We're shifting westward over time relative to the fixed stars He calculated this slow movement known as procession by comparing his own observations of star positions with earlier Babylonian and Greek records particularly those of Tomarkas and Aristilus Ristilus from the third century BCE Hipparchus estimated the rate of procession to be about one degree every 100 years Which is remarkably close to the modern value Approximately one degree every 71 .6 years There's no definitive evidence of earlier cultures fully understanding the procession as a systematic astronomical phenomenon But some scholars speculate the ancient civilizations like the Babylonians Egyptians or Indians might have noticed relating patterns and star positions over long periods Yeah, well, and then check this out Hipparchus discovery detailed in his last work, but referenced by Tolemie the Pharaoh Pharaoh over Alexandria in the Almagist Second century CE so this is happening in the city of Alexandria this all this is being studied in Alexandria's library Mark's the earliest confirmed understanding of procession and scientific sense dude that was lost in in the burning of Alexandria's library Yeah, how crazy is that?

2:42:22It's all crazy. It's so fascinating because It's it makes sense that that would be something that everyone would be studying because it's the most most spectacular thing you could ever see yeah, why would you just say oh? It's just stars you of course you would so silly of course you would it's There's so majestic you would you would have to be Transfixed you know something interesting that I was just reminded of is this meandering pattern It continues in the ancient Mediterranean world so Greece Mesopotamia and Egypt until Alexandria's library is burned and stops after that you see it on the You see it on the monument of Augustus Which is dates to about 9bc But that's for his death, but Augustus would have seen Alexandria He would have been familiar with these motifs.

2:43:13I believe after that in Rome. We don't see this motif anymore of the squared spiral in Mesoamerica in Mexico and Central America this squared spiral motif stops With the burning of the Maya codices from Diego de Landa in like 1574 he gathered All of the writing in the Maya world together in the city of what is modern day Merida and he burned it all up and it was it was called multiple pires So imagine let's say a pire is at least from the floor to the ceiling stacked with codexes like Like if you're seeing the sticky notes that are connected on the side that's a that's how the Maya books looked And he burned all that history today We only have three or four that exist and one of them is like controversial as to whether or not it's a forgery So he destroyed all of the written history of the Mesoamerican world and like one fail swoop and to give you an idea of just how much it was When the Spaniards arrived in the Aztec world so the Aztec were standing on the we're standing on the shoulders of giants being the Maya and all the other cultures the Aztecs were producing 250 ,000 pieces of paper a year.

2:44:23It's something like that It's it's an incredible amount of written knowledge and all of that knowledge is burned and gone And so and so you know it just just again when archaeologists Stand behind their opinions so strongly as to chastise other people for speculating about oh well, you know This could be this it's like it's so silly because we're disconnected from the ancient world by a considerable margin I mean none of us really understand what's going on. I was having a conversation with Dr. Barnhart in we were at the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico and we're looking at all these Maya gods up on this mural and everything In Mesoamerica where there's the Maya the all -Mex the Aztecs, Teotihuacana, Zapotecs, whatever it's all very fierce and dark and Scary kind of scary to us and we're looking up at it And he's like you know, I've always wondered like where's the love in their religion like you know Where where all the doves that you see like in Christian churches and stuff and he was like But you know in reality if we could speak to them We would probably be so embarrassed and shocked at how wrong our ideas are about who these people were and you know His attitude and his approach to the ancient world.

2:45:32I just love it because you know He just presents like the evidence that's available gives his idea of what he thinks the evidence means while also saying you know This is just this is just my idea from this we could be completely wrong and we probably are completely wrong You know think about like if you died and 5 ,000 years from now people started going through your belongings What would they think of you it probably wouldn't be a very good representation of you? Depends on who's writing the story right if CNN wrote it would be terrible You know it'd be pretty bad. It's it's really dependent upon who again is the gatekeeper of information Yeah, if you had a time machine and you go and observe undiscovered Just like being this invisible bubble where you could view it where you're not interacting you're not you just watch yeah What time period and where oh God I'm not going to say Egypt.

2:46:32I feel like Egypt is such a like everyone says Egypt. I would say Egypt. I know. I know um If I if I if Egypt wasn't an option But why would you want that to not be an option if I give you a legit choice if it was a real thing If there was real technology if they had developed some sort of a time warp technology That allowed you to in this controlled sphere exist for a particular amount of time. Mm -hmm You have three days in this area you bring food and water and you just no one can hurt me no one can scot you no one can see you You existed a time warp inside the but you could observe all of it.

2:47:08It's gotta be Egypt. Well Yeah, yeah, I mean I have to figure out what time because if you got there and they had already built it you like shit God damn it. Yeah, like maybe like you say let me go 10 ,000 BC and you go there and it's already there like Fuck you go back 20 ,000 BC. Yeah, I want you can only do it once like fuck But if you go back 30 ,000 BC, maybe there's nothing like you um man Egypt is a crem de la crem man. Yeah, it's it's the it's the most monumental beautiful like you know when you try to imagine What it would have looked like you know if you've seen visual recreations of the Giza plateau, you know The the valley temple must have been absolutely stunning.

2:47:48Okay, so one day when you go to Egypt. Hopefully you go this year um When you go to the valley temple that's the that for me It's the best thing in all of Egypt. I think it's I think it's More stunning what it must have looked like then even the pyramids themselves uh the blocks are absolutely gigantic like one blog is bigger than this whole wall and um brought from 500 miles south in in aswan These are the ones with the cyclopian strangely angled stones like you see in Peru and When you walk in most people ignore it, but uh that floor is like is a calcite white crystal floor And so when imagine when it was polished and when it was finished off it must have been gleaming and at some point in time there were these direite Coffra statues you maybe you've seen them before that are like impossibly well made out of the hardest stone in Egypt The hardest stone in Egypt um And it's this is a black direite gleaming polished statues and the lentils that go above would have allowed when the sun You know reaches it's like zenith in the sky in the day in the middle of the day It would have shot through these holes in the ceiling and so it would have illuminated the white floor and you would have had the solid black Statues that are that are shining in the in the sun's light and so you're walking in and it's like glowing inside of the temple and And when you walk outside the front door of the temple There's a dock and it and you can see the dock like slopes into the ground So the water isn't there anymore the Nile is much further to the east now But it would have the but the Nile Came straight up to the front step of the of the valley temple So you so imagine you're like you're going you know You have someone pushing your little boat along on a pike in you know in Egypt and you're you know You're taking in like you know You're taking in the nature around you and uh and like the seabirds that are flying over you and the palm trees that are And like imagine the sound of the waters are coming up to the temple and it's this huge temple.

2:49:43It's the it's the largest Building on the planet at the time you know probably other other than the pyramids themselves um But and then you step into it and it's it is the most sacred most impressive thing that exists on the earth at that time No matter if it was made in 2500 BC or if it was made in 10 ,000 BC Is the most impressive building that exist in the world at that time and what exactly was going on in these buildings I don't know this is kind of another uh, you know hot take of mine is Man, I don't believe that you know when you say all these pantheons of these gods in the ancient world I do not believe that ancient people are making all this shit up and building all these temples for these gods That never existed just to control the masses whatever that means extensive amount of work all across the entire world You know the the Maya are building temples for these gods these beings that they're that they're meeting The temple of Luxor that you'll that you'll go to see You know that the story goes that almond hotel built this last chamber which is made out of these huge almond hotel to third builds this last chamber huge Megalithic granite blocks to meet to the god almond raw and I'm standing there inside the chamber looking around And he's the only person supposedly that's allowed in that's a story that we know how true that is I don't know but you know and I'm just thinking man Either is it more likely that all this is made up or is it more likely that they went to the extent to do all this because it was all real and They're really interacting with these beings in the most the most realistic way I can think of is by Is by being evolved in like shamanic practices and hallucinogens and like you know Interacting with things that do not exist in our 3d plane and And that adds to the lore of like when I'm standing in the valley temple I'm like what the hell is actually going on in here at this time um So after going through all that I had to say Egypt No, you have to Yeah, yeah, now he says it might be my second one would be like If I could be like okay take me to the height of Amazonian culture just let me see just how amazing it is because You know, it really seems like stone architecture comes out of the Amazon now where Paul lives It's all clay on the ground But when you get halfway through the Amazon you start reaching like granite and limestone bedrock And that's on the eastern side so you're in like Guyana, French Guyana Brazil and it's treacherous places to go through in the in the middle of the Amazon But I think that that's where cities in the Amazon are going to be found one day and it was towards the end of orion as expedition So that's about where he would have been And man, I bet I bet you there's stuff out there that would just amaze us I think it I think the Amazon is the origin should be personally I think the Amazon is the origin of American you know pre -Columbian American the height of their civilization I think it's the origin of their religion and shamanic practices.

2:52:41I think it spread out all the way up to Mexico And you know later on that ancient Americans have a corn god which they call the maize god But I think before that they had this where Jaguar religion where people are Taking hallucinogens and psychedelics and so I think that all the evidence points towards that The origin of civilization in the Americas begins in the Amazon and spreads out from there And I would love if a time machine could pull back that canopy and show me what the actual height of that was like It's just so interesting It never stops being interesting and it's one of those things It's a mystery that will never truly be totally solved because it's not possible to go back in time So we're always going to have this thing in our mind like I Wonder and it's such a fascinating inclination to sit and just wonder about the past and to look where we are now and how Ridiculous life today is This was undeniable humans are fools To particularly today for sure And I think one of the reasons why we're fools is we're denied these experiences that these people probably had We've outlawed them.

2:53:44Yeah, just like they did in ancient Greece just like they did I'm sure throughout history and all these different cultures You know have you ever heard the Have you ever heard the the natives in poppanooginni and the songs that they sing that like emanate through the jungle? Have you ever heard this before? When I When I study now I don't study I only study native people in the Americas I got my hands full with that. I can't really start studying, you know like You know, I'm fascinated by the people who live on Sentinel Island and a kin to that are the people the semi -contacted people of poppanooginni And when you listen to the songs that they sing it reminds me so much of what I heard yesterday and what I've known But when Percy Fossett says he hears the songs they sing and it reminds him like oh this is these just This is an advanced culture.

2:54:31This is something that's being handed down through time. It's beautiful. It's timeless And when you hear the the sound of the poppanooginni people singing in the way they harmonize with each other These people are so connected to the earth that it's the earth singing to you through them Does that make sense? Can we hear that? Yeah This may not be the one I'm talking about It's beautiful though. There's one of uh, there's one of a man He's right next to the camera and he's singing and you have all these people around him and it's just like a stunningly beautiful Here it is here it is Hey The ah Oh, my God.

2:55:39Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Wow. It's got some extra love on it. Yeah.

2:55:53I think it's just on loop. 10 hours. Yeah. But you know hearing that makes me like emotional hearing it. Because five grams and you listen to that. It's beautiful. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's beautiful. And you're looking at his eyes. And it's like he is very innocent eyes. You know, it's the human embodiment of the planet itself. Is that guy that you're looking at and what you're hearing? And what's really fascinated by human cultures is the most satisfied, least anxious people are subsistence livers. People that live off the land. It's so true. Have you ever seen the vice piece about this guy named Heinmo, Heinmo's Arctic Adventure?

2:56:35Yeah. There's a great video piece from vice from back in the day. Vice guy to travel where this journalist goes and lives with this guy who lives in the Arctic. And he's one of the last people that's allowed to live off the land. And he's a very intelligent guy who explains through the course of this. Like this is how people are supposed to be living. And he's essentially just hunting caribou and fishing. And he lives in peace and harmony. And he never wants to live in this city. Like this is a natural way for us. Does he have a little daughter with him or a little girl? And he cuts up the fish and he hands it to her and they give each other an escapacus?

2:57:14Have you seen? I don't believe his daughter is full grown at the time. But I'm sure there's many people living like this. But the point is that I think that if you look at modern society we're so anxious and weird and depressed and all these things wrong with us. I think a lot of that is because A, we're disconnected from nature, especially if you're living in a city. I mean there's no more insulation from nature than a skyscraper. I mean you're completely removed from it. You've covered the ground concrete. You're not interacting with nature at all. Like that's why everybody goes to Central Park.

2:57:48They're like little peas. Give me a little bit of nature. So you're disconnected from nature which I think is a vitamin. I genuinely believe. The sun gives you vitamin D. I think nature gives you some unmeasured vitamin that we just haven't figured out yet. And then we're removed from these ancient experiences that connected people to the spiritual world. Yeah, yeah. It's so true. I've been having these conversations with my wife recently. Like all of our friends are sort of, we're all kind of newlyweds. My wife and I are about to approach our two -year. And our relationship is interesting because it kind of mimics like ancient people where a man has got to, in ancient times the man would go off at a certain point periodically.

2:58:38He and all the other men of the village or the younger men would go off until they killed a big animal and they'd drag it back. And they'd be rewarded by the gratification of the women that they're there. And then they would play their part in helping to feed everybody. And you have this like the woman, like it mires the man, the man's helping take care of her. And then the men also get their time away to be manly and be masculine and brave. And now we exist in this world where before I was able to, you know, quit my job and pursue this full time, I was doing like marketing, you know, to just to make ends meet.

2:59:13And I'm like existing in this digital world that doesn't even exist. I produce ads for companies that don't even have a physical brick -and -mortar store. It's like all completely made up and I come home. I would come home every single day. And I had no like male role in my little family. Like my wife is in the middle of dental school. And so we're both going off and coming back and doing the same thing every day. And it's like this unnatural cycle. And you wonder why people are so unhappy. And now that I've been traveling quite a lot, you know, I go off, you know, I go off, I travel, I'm able to, you know, help provide for us.

2:59:50I'm gone. I come back and our relationship is strong and it's intimate and romantic. And she like, you know, admires that kind of aspect about me. And I'm like, like, oh, this is kind of, this is kind of how this is a healthy, this is actually a healthy thing for our relationship. And it's just reminding me more and more of how this modern world is so dystopian and so sick and poisonous to our minds. We're operating in a made up realm. You know, it's just so much of what we do is completely made up and unnatural. We should be living by a fresh body of water and you and I should be running off into the forest and killing something with our hands or with a bow and dragging it back and all the women are, yay!

3:00:29That's what life should be like. But it's unfortunately science fiction. I think you can live in this world and dabble in that world. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, well, I've seen that. You go off on your hunting expeditions. Those are like, to me, spiritual journeys. It sounds ridiculous. When I'm in the woods, like the real woods when you're in the mountains in particular, because it's so unforgiving, it's so majestic. Every part of me just goes, wow, here we are. Where are you at when you do that? Well, I really love Utah. I really love the Wasatch mountains. I love that area. I'm scared of the Northwest.

3:01:10My wife wants to take me to Montana and go hiking. I'm not going hiking out. There's Grizzly Bears. There's nothing you can do, man. I'm okay on the East Coast, which is just black bears. They're like rabbits. But, do you know Grizzly Bear? Yeah. Have you seen the video of the guy who's up on top of this granite facing? He goes, he's like filming, and he goes, there's a young Grizzly Bear down at the river below me. And he's up on this granite face. And he was like, he's like, I'm going to scare him off. And he goes, hey, bear, hey, bear. And the bear goes and charges directly to him and knocks down all the little trees.

3:01:43And it comes up to the granite face and it can't reach him. But I'm like, dude, I would never want to go up there. I'm your food. Yeah, you're a part of the chain and not the good part. No. You're not the hunter with the deer. No. There's an 800 pound super predator that can run 40 miles an hour. And he's headed right towards you. Yeah, and if you're a good shot with a high -powered gun, you might be able to kill it, but you'll be mulled to death by the time it wanders off into the forest and dies. Yeah, you might be able to kill it. I mean, you really, you need like a large cowal bar rifle and shoot it in the head.

3:02:17Yeah. You know, and a pistol, that's the other thing. If you have a nine millimeter pistol, and you should a grizzly bear in the head, it's very likely it's going to bounce off of a skull, which is so scary. Oh, it's terrifying. Could you imagine the... Could you imagine people trying to navigate into or migrate into the Americas, and they have to deal with the short face bear and polar bears? Right. The short face bear, which makes it grizzly bear -like a poodle. It's utterly insane, man. People lived in a gnarly place in the US. Like, we had American lions that are the place... Exactly. We had elephants, we had woolly mammoths, we had camels here, we had gigantic horses, we had huge dire wolves, we had giant swaths.

3:03:01Oh, there's giant sloth caves in Nantahela, and you can see them, and they're like carved out. And it's cool, because there's multiple layers of history there. So you have this megafauna ice age history of these huge giant sloth caves carved out in these prehistoric mountain sides. Wow. But the Cherokee used those caves to hide in to escape the trail of tears. Wow. Yeah, that's fascinating stuff up there, man. So you have like levels of history just in that one area of the country. If you go out there, you'll feel like you're in a primordial place that's, you know, kind of spiritual. I'm down.

3:03:35Yeah. I'll check it out. Yeah, definitely have to. Listen, thank you so much for being here. I really, really enjoy this conversation, and I think we could do a bunch more. So let's do it again sometime. I feel like I could have talked to you for 10 more hours. I feel like we could too. Yeah. So tell everybody they want to get into more of your work. Where it works to the go. Yeah, so everything I do is just under my name, Luke Caverns. You know, Caverns was just a name that like my wife and I came up with to use like a nomer because of privacy. But my real last name is Reagan. And, you know, I like I share to have this family history and loosely connected to the presidential family.

3:04:10That's like a different branch of our family from Tennessee. And so I kind of want to do it for privacy, but like that's impossible. So I just run with it. But yeah, Luke Caverns, you can find everything I do under that. And you know, for a long time, I thought maybe I'd specialize in one area, but man, I'm interested in the ancient history of the entire world. And I'm just always going to embrace that and explore the ancient world on foot. And yeah. I'm glad you're out there, man. Really appreciate it. Yeah, I love you. Thank you for being here. It was really fun. Thank you. All right, bye everybody.