#2330 - Bono

31:46Because opera was kind of the punk of its time. Classical musicians look down on opera. You know, these are stories from the street. They're, they're too accessible, you know. Really? And, oh yeah, yeah. Opera was crazy. Opera was much rougher. And, and he instinctively knew. And he was constantly trying to make relationships that would cross the divide and make sort of opera popular. And so, to the point where, yeah, he did, he used to call our house and say, you know, at first it was with me, but then when he would haunt our housekeeper, Theresa, and say like, he's got at home. Well, tell God, he's late on the song, or you know, he'd do this kind of carry on.

32:35and I, again, this, these figures in my life, I knew that I was in, you know, on sacred ground when I was near him. I knew this. But the band, they didn't have the, they didn't have the relationship with opera. Well, actually, the edges that I was into opera. But my dad, it was, it was, I was using Luciano Pavarotti to get to my dad. That was the real thing. And so, as you see in the film, I play my father just by turning my head. And I become him. And I was trying to impress him. I'd be in Finnegan's pub, where we'd be sitting, not speaking to each other. And I'd try something and I'd go, what do you think about Luciano Pavarotti calling the house?

33:32And he'd go, did he get a wrong number? You know, of all that. And so, yeah, there was an emotional throughline because our house was in opera. Unfortunately, my dad was going on in his life, was operatic. But it's also funny. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's also this, you are both celebrating the brilliance of this incredible singer and also, you're taking the piss out of this whole cult of celebrity thing that comes along with it. Yeah. And Princess Diana. Yeah. The best love thing with your dad and Princess Diana was hilarious. So, because Edges, Edges, that is, Edges mother and father from Wales.

34:21So, to, you know, so we're with Pavarotti in Modena, I think it was, and he's, so the Princess of Wales is meeting the great tenor and he is offered to meet, you know, anyone who wants, you know, Edges family, because they're from Wales to meet the Princess of Wales. And he says to me, look, do you, do you, do you, do you your dad want to go? And I, of course, know the reason. I know the answer. And the reason for the answer. But he says, well, just, just ask him. So I ask him. I just go, Dad, listen, we wouldn't want to, go meet lady, die, you know, Princess. What? What? Why would I want to meet a member of the British royal family?

35:11That, that, that, that, that's like asking me, do I want to meet the winner of the lotto? And I'm like, okay, got it, got it, got it, got it. And then later, she comes into our dressing room and melts him just by reaching a hand at how do you do? And he's like, oh, very well, thank you. As I say, 800 years of oppression. God, in a second. And if you wonder about the reasoning for having a royal family and a lot of Irish people do, they're like, I wouldn't say he said, that's the reason. The weight of it. The weight of it overcame him. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very bizarre relationship, though, you know, like I'm one -quarter Irish.

36:03I know. The relationship between Ireland and United Kingdom and England is like, it's complicated. Were you, were you, I've read that you got into martial arts because you felt picked on, at some point. Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. So you don't like bullies? No. No. No, I don't like that at all. It's the weakest inclination of the human spirit, you know, to pick on the weak. It's terrible. It's a terrible instinct that humans have from, probably from the time where you had to ostracize weak people because you lived in a tribe of people barely surviving, and you couldn't tolerate any weak links in the chain.

36:49I mean, it's essentially probably where it came from. It probably came out of a survival instinct. And Darwinian things. Where everyone was barbarians, and you had a force people to be the hardest version possible, because otherwise, the genes wouldn't survive. Yeah. And as the survivor of the fittest, it's, yeah, which is the world we live in. Yeah. I mean, this is one of the things that attracts me to Christianity. It's the idea of the first, will be last, the last will be first, is so radical. Mm -hmm. And it's literally the opposite of the survival of the fittest. Right. But America, why I love America, it has, I mean, the British Empire bullied it.

37:30And it stood up. I was, we were coming here, I was asking, someone in the car about the declaration of, of independence, and how many Irish signatures there were, I wasn't that many, I can't remember what they were. But they were all committing treason. Mm -hmm. They were putting their lives, they were pledging their lives, their fortune, and their sacred honor. So America, the very essence of America, is this idea of sticking it to the bully. Yeah. And I know America can be a bully, we all, we have our moments, and all of that, but it's the essence of who you are. And, and it happened again with the, the Gaisy, with the Tash, and...

38:18That's a great one, with Colin Hitler. You know, but, yeah. You know, you weren't, you weren't having it. Right. And, and I, you know, as an activist, which we can talk about later, but the, you know, I remember going to, it's only a few hours from here, but, I was in, um, Lincoln, Nebraska, um, Warren Buffett came to one of our, it's called Heart of America tour, where we were raising awareness on this pandemic, this AIDS pandemic, there was a kill, just, you know, 30 million people at this point, and why might America be interested, and I'm very Irish, and very, given a lot of that. And afterwards, I asked the sage, Vomha, for, for any advice.

39:09and it gives me two pieces of advice, probably, well, the one was, don't ask people to do something simple, because they won't trust you. He said, asking people to do something complicated. What do you mean by that? Well, I said, he said, what are you asking people to do here? And I said, well, there, I'm asking them to, we're asking them, uh, the one campaign, we're asking them, to send, uh, you know, a note to their local congressperson. He said, no, no, no, no, don't, don't do that. Too simple. Make them do something more difficult, and they'll trust you. Maybe 10 postcards. It's harder to do.

39:48I was like, okay. And anything else? And he said something which, really changed my life, and changed my conversation, with this country, of yours. He said, don't appeal, to our conscience, of America. Don't do that. Appeal to the greatness of America. And you'll get the job done. Americans want to be great. That is true. I think it is true. because in Ireland, we work with guilt. You know, you can bring guilt people. There's a lot of countries. You can work them just, you know, but Americans not. Give them the chance to be, the cavalry. Yeah. And they'll, I mean, Omaha Beach, the heroism of Omaha Beach, the lives poured out, you know, and to save Europe from tyranny.

40:42And that's who America is. And, you know, I gave it a Joshua tree because I, you know, it's not just as an Irishman, but probably more because I, as an Irishman, fell under the spell of America. Even as kids, you know, coming here, a lot of the cooler bands would just play the coasts, you know, the cooler UK bands or European bands. But I wanted, I wanted to be all over America. I mean, we played, we opened for a wet T -shirt competition in Dallas. But you was this. Yes. 81. Oh, the first 21. Wow. We, we in Austin, I don't know, if anyone can remember, it was, it was called the club, club fought.

41:42And it was a bad pun. But there was no AC, and I remember it was a tin roof and for Irish people, we were just being boiled. But I really, really great memories of just busing it through this sort of mythical landscape. You know, there was, there's nowhere, nowhere in this country I would want to fly over. But I do now, you know, we got the plane, we get that this. But I, I just remember thinking, this is, there's so many Americas. Yes. But the mythology of America is reading, you know, Sam Shepard, I was reading, you know, on the road, I was reading, you know, all these great writers and just opening up my imagination.

42:33That's where the Joshua Tree came from. And yeah, it's, it's a, it's, it's a mythology that then can you imagine I get to discover that in my case, it's not just a mythology. It, I was part of something that was extraordinary. So former governor of this, Texas, George W. Bush, conservative, starts to lead the world in the fight against the AIDS pandemic, the greatest health crisis in 600 years since the bubonic plague. And I'm like, people say, that's impossible. It's just not going to happen. And he does. And it becomes a bipartisan thing and 26 million lives are saved. So it's strange, the way you see things.

43:38I had this, I wasn't a naive sense of America. But it was a sense that everything could be possible here. It was somehow the landscape of America was a little more magical than everywhere else. And it wasn't just a country America, it was an idea. Yes. Yeah. At its greatest. That is what America is. At its greatest, it's an idea. And it's an idea that was, like I said, was founded with the concepts behind the Declaration of Independence. And those, those men who wrote that, the men who signed the Bill of Rights, they were so young. They were so young. Some of them were 18 years old at the time, which is so crazy.

44:26Jefferson was 32 or 33 when he wrote that. He's an old codger. I mean, that's why. And then, by the way, years later, he's in France, I think he's in France, and he loved wine. And this is married. I found this out because I saw a signature in a book. I was on some tour. I like to drink red wine. I've never been to Bordeaux in my life. But I went with some people who knew their way around wine. And they asked me to sign a book in this particular vineyard, posh kind of vineyard. But this was across the road from the big names, sort of thing. And I asked, I said, can I see the first book? There's Thomas Jefferson's name in the first one.

45:12I thought, wow, this guy's dreaming of America on some very fancy red plunk. Yeah. Not plunk, actually. Some really. But, you know, I know there's lots of contradictions in America. And I know there was slavery still and that he had slaves. And I understand, but I'm encouraged that America perhaps doesn't exist yet that it's still been written. If you think about it as a song, you think about it as a piece of music, it's not finished. Right, right. It's still been written. Yeah. They started at those signatures. Yeah. You, and if you let people like me stay, you know, you're writing it. I'm writing.

46:07I'm the annoying fan who follows America into the bathroom and with the liner notes which are the declaration. Like, didn't you say this here? And get out. Who followed me into the bathroom? It's like, but, but I, yeah, I like the idea that it's, that this is far from finished this composition. Yes. And for some people, the America that is available to you and me doesn't exist yet, but will. And it can.

46:41and, yeah. We hope that every election cycle, like this, this will be the one that finally makes us what we truly believe we are. But the country is just so co -opted by this. First of all, you have this genuine issue with the fact that it's essentially a popularity contest to see who gets to be running the government. You have a popularity contest. It's fueled entirely by special interests and the military industrial complex and pharmaceutical drug companies. And it's just, it's all, it's all the opposite of an authentic song. Right. The thing about an authentic song where it makes your fucking goose bumps stand up.

47:24You're like, God damn. I tell you a story. I tell you a story. I tell you a story. A long time ago, probably 25 years ago, I was on Mushrooms with a friend of mine. And we were laying on the side of this hill overlooking this canyon and we played in God's country.

47:47And it was just the peak of the mushrooms and the songs, the melody, the way that song hit. It just, it gave me this insane appreciation for things. Like at that, it was like this very unique fusion of the beauty of the music and the love of the experience. The mushrooms bring out this like loving like communal quality, like happiness and joy and just lying in this field, looking up at this canyon and hearing that song. It was like, this is what what music does. It takes these moments and wherever they're at, it breaks them through the membrane into this new place. Like this moment, it broke through this membrane and brought me to this place.

48:39I think about it all the time. I think about that particular experience. This episode is brought to you by Zipper Cruder in a survey 76 % of employers plan to grow their teams in 2025. Now that we're halfway through the year, how are those hiring goals going? Have you filled all the roles you wanted to or are you still looking? If you're struggling to find the right people or if you want a streamlined your hiring process going forward, try Zip Intro. It's Zipper Cruder's latest feature that lets you post jobs and talk to candidates the next day. You can try it out for free at zippercruder .com slash Rogan.

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51:33Wherever you are is, you know, we need new dreams tonight. And you can't be living on... We can't be living on second -hand dreams. And that's, I think, the renewal, I think, is what we're all looking for. And yeah, it's something to be protected. And I'm not protected. That sounds like it's... It's like... I think you're right, though. But I think America's more vulnerable now than it's ever been. It feels like America's fallen out of love with the rest of the world. I don't think the world wants to fall out of love with America. It just feels like. And, you know, I've 25 years, and I'm just tiny cog in, I suppose, you know, people that look at personalities or, you know, even luminous ones are ones that have ideas way above their station and think that will, you know, that might change things.

52:45But it's social movement so it's changed things. And what happened back then with that heart of America was mind -blowing. Because I learned a few things that I wasn't expecting. Like, I had grown up with a couple... More than a few bumps with evangelicals. You know, I was like, whoop! You know, it's like... Yeah. Because, you know, how do you... You kind of approach the subject of God without metaphor, right? So, literalism is by its nature anti -medifer. And, you know, Jesus all we know is that he spoke in parables because they're not literal. How do you explain these as popoicist music? And I found it really difficult to be around evangelicals because they were so, you know, just literal about everything.

53:43And then, on that same tour where I met Warren Buffett, I ended up at a college called Wheaton College, which was like a big, in Chicago, it was a big evangelical thing. And they were like, they were really helpful. And they were like, I realized that these were kind of... And this is not to be at all dismissive of some credible people. But it was like, I felt there was sort of narrow -minded sort of... what would I say, just sort of narrow - the vision, if I could just open the aperture of their vision, just a little bit wider that they could be the most incredible force for good because they just worked harder.

54:32They didn't tell lies. They were just great people. And I think they led part of this movement. That they ended up saving 26 million lives, you know, and it's called PEPFAR that George Bush started and Obama continued. Then I go to Catholics. I ended up in Notre Dame. Not a few Bruce, Catholics over the years too. And I'm meeting these people and they're like, no, no. We want to... We believe in the value of human life. If we can do this, how much does this cost? I'm like, well, you know, all of foreign aid is probably just less than 1 % of government spending. But the part that keeps people alive is half of that.

55:22So it's like half a percent. Now, it's not my money. It's up to you if you want to do that. But they did. And lots of people came together. It was priests and punks. You know, it was the wildest collection of people. And just recently, like in the last three months, this is not about politics, because I've worked with conservatives. I've worked with liberals. I don't care, you know, I don't have those. I'm Irish. I don't have a chance to vote. But all of that was torn down without a heads up, without any notice, because people thought foreign aid was like 10 % of the budget, or 20%, and it was doing things that it shouldn't have been doing.

56:12And I'm sure there was some waste. But I can tell you as a person who saw what the United States were doing around the world and saw this.

56:25I saw America display itself at its finest. And I remember being in the Oval Office with President Bush and these anti -retroviral drugs. I said, paint them red, white, and blue. Mr. President, these are the best advertisements for America they'll ever be. And he's looking at me thinking, I'm taking the piss, but I'm not. And he wasn't, as it turns out. And he spoke about the least of these, which is a wild concept. I don't know if you know this, but it's like the, it's in Matthew, I think it is. It's the only time that Jesus speaks of judgment. It's not like, what's going on in your pants. It's not like, what's gone over here, or over there.

57:14The first time Jesus Christ speaks in kind of force of judgment is the way we treat the poor, the poorest of the poor. And he says, well, in the way that you're treating these, the least of them, the, the sick, the blind, the people who are suffering from malnutrition. That's how you treat me. I am them. And so now, when we cut to the people, like you went to Boston University, you taught at Boston University. I taught martial arts there, yeah. So, just recent report, it's not proven, but the surveillance enough suggests 300 ,000 people have already died from just this cut -off, this hard cut of USAID.

58:08So this food rotting in boats and warehouses. There is, this will fuck you off. This will not be happy, no American will, but there is, and he has 50 ,000 tons of food that are stored in Chibouti, South Africa, Dubai, and Waferat, Houston, Texas. And that is a rotting, rather than going to Gaza, rather than going to Sudan, because the people who know the codes or for the warehouse are fired. They're gone. And so this, I don't know, I just, I'm, what do you think? What is, what is that? That's not America, is it? Well, they're throwing the baby out with the bath water. Right. This is the problem.

59:03The problem is, for sure, there have been a lot of organizations that do tremendous good all throughout the world. Also, for sure, it was a money laundering operation. For sure, there was no oversight. For sure, billions of dollars are missing. In fact, trillions that are unaccounted for, that were sent off into various, they don't even know where, because there's no receipts. The way Elon Musk described that he said, if any of this was done by a public company, the company would be delisted, and the executives would be in prison. But in the United States, this is standard. When Biden left office, when it was clear that Trump won in the 73 days, they spent 93 billion dollars from the Department of Energy on just radical loans, just throwing money into places.

59:57And there's no oversight, no receipts. The whole thing is, there's a lot of fraud, a lot of money laundering. But also, we help the world. And when you're talking about making wells for people in the Congo to get fresh water, when you're talking about food and medicine to places that don't have access, like, no way that should have been cut out. And that should have been clear before they make these radical cuts. Like, there's got to be a way to keep aid and not have fraud. And you can't have, you can't say, we're going to kill everything so that there's no fraud. But then you're killing all the good and you're doing it without letting anybody know it's going to happen.

1:00:40So no one's, it's not like they had three years to prepare. Let's build a new infrastructure. Let's make sure that everything's set up. They want to change and they want to change quickly and do the nature of American politics. They have about two years before the midterms, right? So everything has to get done. As quickly as possible, you have to show a growth in GDP. You have to show that the economy's booming again under these ideas. Make America first, tariffs for the world. Bring back American manufacturing and this mad rush to do it all as quickly as possible while cutting out as much waste as possible.

1:01:10Yeah. But the ironic thing is, even though Elon Musk has proposed all these things and the Doge community has proposed all these things, they've made no cuts in terms of the budget. They've cut nothing. They vote against any part. I mean, if it's big government or whatever people want to shrink, I get the instinct, but this, the life -saving part, it's the little finger of the giant. Right. Exactly. I mean, and I've met all these people. And I'm sure there's part of it, you know, there's, I think about 10 percent of it goes to things like governance and, you know, the human rights organizations.

1:01:56You might say that's political and we shouldn't be involved in that. And there's reforms, I imagine, that might have been necessary. But just have the reforms. But, but to, to, to destroy, to, to vandalize. I mean, it felt like, with Glee, these life support systems were being pulled out of the walls. And I was reading today, you know, is like, I think it's, in Christianity today, and they're just talking, I think it's called Christian Relief, one of these organizations. And they're dealing with malnourished kids. And they are having the conversation now about, we don't have the funds, we have to choose which child to pull off the IVs.

1:02:40And it just seems to me like a kind of, I don't know if, if evil is a strong word, I'm too strong a word, but what we know about pure evil is it rejoices in the deaths, you know, of the squandering of human life, particularly children. And suffering. Yeah, it actually rejoices in it. And I just, you know, whether it's, whether it's incompetence, whether it's unintended consequences. It's not too late for people. Like, I have conversations with Marco Rubio. He's convinced people aren't dying yet. I don't know who's telling him, I'm not telling him rather, but his instincts are correct. You know, he wants to, he used to wear a one campaign arm band.

1:03:37Americans, no matter what political color, they just, they just, they just, they just, you see them just, the size, sort of, they just grow in stature when they know they're being useful. I had a truck driver on that same tour, he'd like tattoos all over his head and whatever, and he was just saying, can I drive? I heard 50 % of all truck drivers in Africa are going to die. Is that right? Because of this disease, eight, I said, yeah, he said, can I give you my number? I will drive. Like, that's America. and yeah, the bureaucracy, the pen pushers, I get it. I get people's frustration for it. But, but I just, I just want to remind Americans of the size of their country.

1:04:30And I'm not talking about the geography. The impact. I'm just the, the size of the idea. You know, it's just, it's just an extraordinary thing. It's an idea, I think, big enough to fit the whole world. And when it becomes a continent, you know, when it becomes an island rather than a continent, I think it's a subcontinent. I should have gone to geography less and more. But, you know, you know what I'm talking about? When it shrinks, America seems to stop being America. And I know you don't want to get into wars, and you shouldn't. But, that don't concern you. But, but there's, this word freedom, land of the free.

1:05:21Yeah. That's, and the brave, this is, this is who we look to you, for, and we look to you for these qualities. I believe they're everywhere and I don't believe anyone, party has a, has a hold on them. No. On these qualities. But, you know, it's just to say, it's a funny one for me. I, one of the reasons I came on, on the show I wanted to, on the show, was, I, I wanted to interview you. I wanted to, I just wanted to get your take on where America is, at the, at the present time, because, because you're talking to everyone. You know, and this isn't, this is a compliment to you. But, my book, you know, wrote this book, Surrender.

1:06:19And sort of, if there's a point to it at the very end, it's, it's just, I'm, I'm shouting at God, I'm having my wrestling match with my maker. And you just get this thing of, and, and you probably picked it up, but then, shut up and listen. And, I need to listen more. You are, an amazing listener. And, I don't know who was with some, who said, listening doesn't grant the other side legitimacy. But it grants them their humanity and restores your own. And you sit in this room, and you listen to everybody. And that makes you very valuable to the country. And, and I wanted to just get your, your take on it.

1:07:10Well, what would your advice be to me, and people like me, who are not part of the,

1:07:20big industrial complex, just, we just, we just want to serve the idea of America and the people who depend on that idea. Yeah, I think, what would your advice to me? I would give you zero advice. I don't know if I'm qualified to give advice. But I would say that America goes through these great periods of overcorrection. It goes, these great periods of, like, you saw it during COVID, during the lockdowns and the authoritarianism, and we fell into a kind of state of tyranny, where there was just massive oppression of free speech, including government -sponsored oppression. They were contacting different social media platforms and banning legitimate doctors and scholars because they had different opinions about how things should be handled.

1:08:10There was a wide -scale censorship, a push for a changing of the first amendment. The first amendment needs to be overhauled. The first amendment doesn't apply to hate speech or to disinformation. There was all these, like, new ways of talking about censorship in this country and condoning censorship. And it's very dangerous, because it's all about money. It had nothing to do with protecting people. That's what I worry about. Yeah. The argument about free speech is that it seems to be sponsored by a lot of people who, you sense, don't really respect it so much. But it is a very economic for them to not have to live with the consequences of a story.

1:08:56I think, is it the communication? I think it's the 1996, as a long time ago, Communications Act, Decency Act, that meant the Internet did not have to apply by the same rules as the rest of the media. Right. So we could say anything we wanted. And at first that felt like liberation, but I'm not so sure anymore. And so, I mean, you can tell me more about this. I'm not a free speech absolutist. But I do want to believe in free speech. But I'm nervous that the people who are supporting free speech and using their bots and their own activists are people from countries who would not, at all, respect, are your mind the ability to express ourselves.

1:09:58And that's what I worry about, is I think, I think the old interweb has been played like a, like a harp. Like an orchestra. Yeah. And the people, you know, behind the curtain, would surprise us, I think, if we knew. I think it's worse than that. I think it's programmed, like an EDM concert. I think it's not even an orchestra. I worry, and this has been substantiated by data, that more than 50 % of the interactions going on on the Internet and social media are not real. And there was a... It's wild. Former FBI satellite stuff. Yes, former FBI analysts that said it might be as much as 80%. It's bots, as you said.

1:10:45And this is a problem with the concept of free speech. I'm completely holy in favor of free speech, just like the ADL was back in the day when they let the Ku Klux Klan march. They, like, look, you got to... Yeah. The way to combat bad speech is with better speech. The way to find out whose arguments are correct is to let them debate in the marketplace of free ideas. And expose these people for what they are. And have the people that are on the sidelines that are letting these great thinkers have these discussions. Say, okay, this guy makes sense. This guy is clearly a grifter. This guy has ulterior motives.

1:11:22This guy has an ideology that's very toxic and he's trying to push this on the whole world for control, for power, for money, to benefit the special interest groups that he's a part of, or whatever it is. That the problem with free speech is you're also going to get a lot of ugliness because there's a lot of ugliness in the world. You're going to get a lot of people that say horrible things. And I think the only way we sort through all that is you have to let them. And then you have to let people rise up that oppose those horrible ideas. And those people become heroes. Those become the marvelous humorous.

1:11:54Like humor helps. Like humor helps. One thing we know about the Ku Klux Klan is if you mentioned the silly costumes, they don't like that. But you know, it's like, they want you to be afraid or you want to be nervous. But it's like, dude, look at the stage gear. You're in ghosts. It's like, it's like, come on. Do you know who Darrell Davis is? No. Darrell Davis is a musician who was a traveling blues musician and did some shows where afterwards he met some people that told him that they were in the Ku Klux Klan. And he was like, are you kidding? And they show, the guy shows him his fucking grand wizard ID card or whatever that it is.

1:12:39He becomes friends. Here's my card. Darrell's black. Right. Darrell's a black man. And becomes friends with this guy. Goes to his house, meets his family. The guy throws the robot way. Gives up his membership in the KKK. He renounces his membership and gives Darrell the ropes as I want you to have this. Darrell has done that personally. The last time I talked to him was a few years back. He'd done this personally to over 200 people. Just by being an amazing human being by being a brilliant artist and hanging out with him just being kind and as an example of just a great human. And they were like, I guess I'm wrong.

1:13:19I guess I'm wrong. This idea that black people are inferior and the white man is a superior race. That can't be true because I love this guy. And so they would disquit. Yeah. They'd quit. And he has the stack. It's a terrible theory. But if you're in the place with only terrible theories, and that's what you grow up, there's Darrell. And they give him all his ropes. He's a great man. He's a great man. And he's a kind, very peaceful. When you speak to him, he's amazing. One of your, again, one of the reasons I'm here

1:13:59is the... I think there is a sense that people just want to be part of something. And when we're growing up, there were clubs you could be part of.

1:14:18There's people you could hang out with and you knew where that was going. But if you wanted to belong and have a sense of purpose, you ended up there. And so, I think that it's okay

1:14:40for men to admit that in this moment, they are probably, you know, we're a little adrift. I hear this from my daughters. I hear this from my wife. And it's like, that's where this feeling of being dislocated. So you're attracted to these simple ideas. You know, the concept of the gang or America, like it's a team sport between the Reds and the Blues. America's the team. That's all... And this thing, look, I'm vulnerable. We are all, especially when you're growing up, teenagers. You know, you are very vulnerable to those points of view. Yes. I, you know, early on, we had sort of, yeah, I would say I had got close to what you might call fundamentalists.

1:15:47And this is all versions of fundamentalism. It's all a very narrow view. And, you know, what you see going on right in Gaza, you see Palestinian people being held hostage by Hamas. It's not just Israeli that being held hostage by Hamas. Palestinian people. And the fundamentalists in Israel, in the cabinet, these far right fundamentalists. Because at a time, you remember a few years back, everything was kind of wishy washy and kind of the new age and whatever you're having yourself. And now, these strong, clear points of view have arrived. And... It's the Great Overcorrection. It's the Great Overcorrection.

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1:18:08You might not be able to control how others handle your personal information, but you can help protect it with Life Lock. Save up to 40 % your first year, call 1 -800 -LIFLOCK and use the promo code JRE or go to lifelock .com - slash JRE for 40 % off Terms Apply. Yeah, there's a real problem with ideology. And there's a real problem with fundamentalism and there's a cowardice in it. And there's a cowardice and I'm the only one that's correct. There's a cowardice and not listening to any other ideas, not listening to any other positions. And we're being played against each other in this country.

1:18:48The thing about the bots and the social media stuff is it just accentuates this divide between the left and the right, which I think is mostly bullshit. Most people are good people. Most people just want to be happy and healthy and have friends and family and do what they want to do for a living and have the freedom to pursue those things. Most people aren't trying to victimize people. Most people aren't trying to destroy other people's lives and destroy society. They just want to live their life. But they're being sucked into one side or the other which is radically opposed to each other. The great overcorrection.

1:19:23Did you think that President Zelensky was being bullied in that meeting in the old office? Like there's not just just to think about it as a playground. This is a guy maybe his life depends, but certainly the life of many, many people he knew and he didn't depend on. And he had to listen to that. Well, the whole thing is strange, right? I mean, the argument in the White House like you don't have the right hand of cards and just the fact that this is all being done publicly is very strange. Right? There's cameras and photographers. I don't like live podcasts. Sometimes I've done them before, but there's something about having an audience where you're playing to an audience, having these conversations should be just a couple of people in a room.

1:20:11That's what I think. I think that's the ones that resonate with me the most. Yeah, this is, I just think it's the best way to do it, the way that resonates the most. I think the kind of conversation that you're going to have the world leader shouldn't be performative. And it certainly shouldn't be with a bunch of people snapping photographs and pointing cameras and then pushing each other back and forth. You know, you don't have the right hand of cards. This is not cards. You are playing cards and it's just a crazy way and each calling each other disrespectful. It's a crazy way to handle any world events.

1:20:46It's just terrible platform for it. Yeah. Just think of, again, I think of America, the Americans of Omaha Beach, the people who, like the level of courage. Yeah. And I think of these people in the front line in Europe. I mean, I haven't really spoken about Europe with you. But, you know, if America is the melting pot, I would say Europe's the mosaic. You know, it's all these different people who speak with a different language but are trying for one voice in Europe, which is, you can tell, like, a coffee, they call it Euro Babel in Brussels. But I've really, I'm really now realizing how romantic it was, you know, with the Enlightenment, with Renaissance, you know, we've got a lot to offer.

1:21:43And Europe has, Europe's under threat. And those bots, every election, now, where this candidate is pro -Europe and pro -European unity, they are just getting a shitstorm of disinformation. And I just think, wow, but it's, I think Europe is an America, just sexier than these people. Is that a, a, a tried thing to say? But it's like they're, they're so clean and unsexy. You know, that's, I mean, that's, that's, sorry, I, I have driven up. Unromantic. Unromantic. It's, that's right. It's just these very dough, not funny people. Right. And I'm trying to take over the world. They're not funny. Lukashenko Belarus.

1:22:39That dude is not funny. We don't have to go further. We don't have to go further. What do you think is the funniest world leader? Oh my God. Who, yeah, that's a really good question. It's got to be Trump. He's the funniest. Well, he has the thing that a lot of stand -up comedians have, which is he can say the thing in the room that no one else is going to say. Right. And that generally creates a laugh. And, um, but I also think he might be able to take a joke. Well, he's not good at that. He doesn't enjoy a joke coming his way. No, he doesn't. I mean, Zelensky's actually a comedian. Right. I met him before he became president.

1:23:27He plays piano with his penis. On television. It's quite a... It was quite a piano. I mean, it's funny to go from playing piano with your penis to becoming the president of Ukraine. Coming to the president of the United States. Yeah. By all accounts. So, um, but he came to Ireland as a comedian. He told me. I didn't know. And he played like small towns. I think he played Dundalk or Drought or somewhere in the East Coast of Ireland. But, comedians can read a room. I mean, performers. I think comedians are at the top of the food chain because you don't have a band. You don't have a fucking tambourine.

1:24:16You don't. You just have the read of the room and the material has to be really funny. I use this sometimes with our band. Not a lot of our music is just experimental and innovative. We improvise. And then we try to turn into songs. But sometimes, we'll write a pop song. And we'll end up with a pop song. And I'll say, well, the thing about a pop song is, it is empirical. It's like, it either is or it isn't. It's like a joke that doesn't have a punchline. It's like a comedian does not walk out on stage and tell a joke and if people don't laugh, they just don't get it. It just means the joke isn't funny.

1:25:00So, it's not a popular theory in our band, by the way, but I hold on to it very tight. I just say, if you can't go out and play this song, and it just connects, then it's not a pop song. We don't, we only do a few pop songs every decade, probably, because a lot of what we do to is a different kind of rock and roll. But I do think there's something empirical about some songs are better than the others. I witnessed one of the most ridiculous moments in my life, but it was kind of funny. Oasis, you know, Oasis there are going on to amazing times. I love them. I just love them. And so, I witnessed this.

1:25:51It couldn't be a more childish fight between two of my friends. Liam Galler was a friend at that point. I know no about her now, but Michael Hutchins, who was the singer of the Nexus, and they really were doing the my songs better than your songs. Oh, no. And I was thinking I was laughing to myself. And then I thought, oh, it's interesting. Both of them have a point. That song of theirs might be better than that. And it started to think about it. And comedians don't get a chance to be subjective. It's not like Prince walks out and plays a whole new album and can go, they just don't get it. It's like, you're either funny or you're not.

1:26:48Right. You're going down flames. Have you gone down in flames? Oh, sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. What was your worst gig? Oh, I've had so many. Especially in the early days, you're trying to figure it out. And you know, the thing about material is, material is essentially like a calf that's newly born. And it has awkward legs and it has to develop into a bowl. But it takes a long time. It takes crafting. You have to sit with it. You have to go over the idea. Some ideas come to you in full form. And some ideas, you have to believe in them. You know there's something there and you have to dig and, you know, trust them, use, and find it.

1:27:31And, you know, sometimes those bits were just fucking bomb. And you have to just like, oh, gosh, are you going to abandon this? Should I keep working on this? So you have a team of writers? No. Wow. No, I just write everything myself. Are you kidding? No, always. Yeah. Always have. Always write my mind. Just like, my view on stand -up, the kind of stand -up, but I do as supposed to be, here's the world through my eyes. This is how I'm seeing things. From the most ridiculous, awestruck, and laughing at everything perspective. And I have to, it has to be through my lens. Well, that's amazing. I mean, because I've seen, you know, on Saturday Night Live, when we do it, or I've seen some of the talks, I see these geniuses, you know, crunching jokes and coming out with material and...

1:28:15That's a different thing. It's a different thing. Yeah. Like, a Saturday Night Live monologue or, you know, to Nitro monologue or any of that kind of thing. That's a different thing. The real stand -up is clubs. I went to a club with Dave Chappelle to a club, and he brought me to his name. It was amazing. Are you still friendly with him? Oh, real good friends. Yeah, I love him to death. Yeah. He's... He's incredible. That's jazz. Yes. He's a real artist. He can go there. Well, you know, it's like... Yeah. No, I... I... I think... Why don't you tell him of this? I'm told him of this. Oh, yeah. Because people can't take a joke.

1:28:49Right. And some people... I mean, we don't need belly laughs out of our leaders. We just need vision. No. You need vision and kindness. But to deal with... The clook looks clean. Yeah. The humor helps. To deal with... Right. The fascists or whatever. I mean, certainly Hitler... In... Well, I think late 30s was getting rid of the deadests and the surrealists. Because the language of fascism was to fight back. But they liked that language. And... I mean, the language of resistance against, you know, Hitler was to fight back. And... But they... That suited them. They did not like being left out. It's a fear.

1:29:31I did not like being left out. Well, because if you can mock something... Like, you can... You can have a position or an opinion on something and someone can disagree strongly. But if they make everyone laugh at that position, no, you're... Now, they've made a real point. Because it's actually... An opinion that you might not have even agreed with has caused you to belly laugh. Like, oh god. Like, that's how you really get it. Because if you go on stage and just have a bunch of opinions and just lecture people... There's people in the audience who go, well, fuck you. I feel differently. But if you could go on stage with that opinion and make people laugh at something they know they shouldn't be laughing.

1:30:07I'm like, oh my god. And you're like... Like, then you're introducing ideas into a person. It's a spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down. Yeah, no. You're certainly the... Because with rock stars... And again, I honestly feel like I'm just an impersonating one. I don't think I am the material really. But people when they see me come and they sit in their wallet. You know what I mean? They're like, well, up. Here he comes. And he's going to have a sign up and say, where's comedians? People are much more open. People will... People will... Or just more open. I think that's a... That's...

1:30:46It's a responsibility. But it's... It's something to be valued. It's just... I was saying somebody recently... I'm not sure I trust people anymore who aren't a little bit funny. Yeah. I mean, funny in the... Not the funny peculiar. Right, right. There's a place for that too. Right. But, you know... People who make you laugh are open. Yes. And also, the contradictions of the world and how bizarre things are, it's just ripe with humor. And if you don't ever pick up on it, like, what are you focusing on? Like, you don't ever see the hypocrisy and the ludicrousness of just this existence, this temporary existence on a spinning orb hurling through the universe and concentrating on who gets to use what bathroom?

1:31:35Like, is this like... You know what I mean? It's like, we're weird. We're very weird. And if you don't see that, you're not paying all attention. You're not all in. You're certainly not balanced. Those motions were working very well for you. Yeah, I'm telling you, man. In God's country. That's the ticket. That's beautiful. This episode is brought to you by Visible. I want to let you in on something. Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about Visible, because Visible is the ultimate wireless hack. No confusing plans with surprise fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage, without the premium cost.

1:32:15With Visible, you get one -line wireless with unlimited data powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month, taxes and fees included. Seriously, $25 a month flat. What you see is what you pay. No hidden fees on top of that. Ready to see? Join now and unlock unlimited data for just $25 a month on the Visible plan. Don't think wireless can be so transparent. So, Visible? Well, now you know. Switch today at Visible .com slash Rogan. Terms apply. See Visible .com for planned features and network management details. Yeah. Wow. I'm so touched. That album. You know, a lot of the songs on that were, you know, very vulnerable, you know.

1:33:04And I don't know if, you know, Brian, you know, was a producer who invented ambient music and worked with David Bowie, talking heads, you know, and recently a co -play and other people. But he was at a profound influence on us. As we didn't go to our college, all like the Beatles, the Stones, they all went to our college. We went to Brian, you know. And he had this incredible musician in partnership with him for the production of that album, called Daniel Lanois, one of the greatest musicians you will ever meet in your life. And that, some songs come really quickly. Like, burn me just. But some are just like what you're saying.

1:33:52They're like the fold. The legs are going around. Yeah. And the one that was like that was where the streets of no name. And so we were working out for what felt like weeks. And Brian came in and he just said, I am not having to spend one more minute on this song. And he went to wipe it. So he was actually going to wipe it. And so there's no other copies. And Pat McCarthy, who was our engineer, went on to produce Orem and Madonna. Great dude. He physically blocked Brian from it. But that song for me. And it's not the lyric that I'm most proud of or anything. Because Brian was just saying to us, just go with your first sketch.

1:34:47We were talking about paint on canvas. But I'm saying that it's not that clever. I want it to be clever. That's what you said. That's what you meant. And it's the strangest thing, Joe, because we go on stage. And I sing that song. We sing that song. We play that song. And I was like, where the streets are? What's that about? I started in Africa when I was with my wife when I was a kid. And there were 25? Something like maybe 26. She was 24. And it was about the devastation that was happening in the Ethiopian famine. And I just couldn't explain it to myself. There was other inferences about the song.

1:35:40But none of them matter as much as this question to your audience, which is, do you want to go there to this place, the place of imagination, the place of soul, the place of that other place? Do you want to go there? Do you want to go there together? And everybody feels it. Because we all want to be outside of ourselves at a certain time. And we all want to have that experience, that meeting with some call it the universe, some call it gods, some call it themselves, whatever. But it's music now. I think all art aspires to the condition of music. But we go to church in the dark. That's what rock and roll is.

1:36:39And we're just looking for little shards of light. We find that in an audience, we find our transcendence together. But the movie, we also go to church in the dark in cinema. You sit in a dark space and it's projected light, telling all the people stories. And somebody said, cinema is like being born. Like you go into the womb, the psyche of floating around in the, as Jim Sheridan would say, he's my hero, a psychological genius Irish director, my left foot, the boxer from great films. He'd say, yeah, you're in the amniotic fluid. But you're in soy the motor. And you're about to come out into the light.

1:37:32That's cinema. Great cinema is that journey towards the light. And I love that. I love that. But it's the same, for some people, their cathedral is a hike. The natural world. Yeah. Have you ever heard Richard Roar? No. Oro H. Or, he lives in Albuquerque. He has a thing called, it's called the center of, the center of action and contemplation. And I really love it. That's that way around. And he's a Franciscan friar. But very other worldly thoughts about the natural world and finding the divine in it, as well as just in each other. But just seeing it in the world, I think you'd enjoy him. He's worth a read.

1:38:37Is it Irish? Is it Catholic Irish? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. You might enjoy him. I'm sure I would. Yeah. He's a real beauty. He lives a little hermitage.

1:38:55And, yeah, and he's good. He's great on the enneagram as well. Do you know the enneagram? No. It's the sort of archetypal thing that goes back to Sufi. I think early Sufi. And then the Christian fathers. I think what they call the Desert Fathers in the fourth century. But it's a way of recognizing archetypes and our own. It's not a big thing for me or anything. It's not archetypes. But I think our daughter, Eve's an actor. And she said a lot of writers are interested in it. And she said in some of the clever schools they teach this enneagram. He's, any Richard was an expert in this. I think here it goes.

1:39:44Whoa. Enneagram three centers. Oh, it looks like a cult. Of intelligence, the mediator piecemaker. So the perfectionist, performer, the giver, helper supporter, performer, achiever, romantic individualist, the observer thinker, the loyal skeptic, the trooper, the epicure, enthusiast, generalist, and the protector, the leader of the boss. What would you say you are? Oh, Jesus. I don't know how you could tell. I wouldn't. I think I just keep on keeping on. I try not to be attention to me as much as possible. I think there's a thing that happens what you're talking about on stage where everyone achieves a higher state of consciousness through a song.

1:40:27I think that's where it is really like a church. That's where it is really like a religious experience. When a great song is playing that like really, like when people hear it and like, ah, you know, maybe it's the first couple of bars of Sunday, bloody Sunday. They hear it and they're like, yes, it's like this thing that washes over everyone collectively. We're all experiencing it together and it takes you away from yourself. You know, everyone's caught up in their own struggle and they're self and how they exist in this world and all the problems of reality. And then there's something about these moments of divine inspiration where they impact people.

1:41:05It's very profound way. And I think that's one of the reasons why people are so deeply drawn to music and especially live performance. Because music is wonderful. Music by yourself is great. I love listening to music in my car. I love listening to music, period. But music when you're in a live setting, when everyone's experiencing it together, it's a religious experience. There's something, there's something attuned to it. There's a reason why they sing in church, right? Yeah. It's very similar. Yeah, I miss that. You know, when we were kids, the tunes weren't that great in the church. And I said to my, I mean, no offense to whoever was there with it.

1:41:43I agree. But, you know, I was like, I said to our kids, you know, as, and they were all, none of them were baptized, Protestant or Catholic. Because my father was Catholic. My mother said, I just said, you want to be Christian, you want to be Christian, but you decide. You know, I never got religion rammed down my throat. I'm certainly not going to put it down yours. So we'd go and sometimes you just get a feeling in a place. I said, just trust that feeling. Yeah. And they might say, well, tunes aren't that good. And I'm like, it's okay. But I remember when I was really on walking in and hearing like the Salvation Army band and people singing out.

1:42:26I remember getting the shivers just thinking, these are, these are, these, these hymns, these ancient songs. They really connect us. And I miss that. And I think people, I think people would return to religion if, if religion wasn't so fucked up. Yeah. And, and I think people, you know, the church has to serve the people and, and not the other way around. And, you know, the church presently, I don't know how many churches you'd have here in Austin, Texas. But I'd probably say, if there's 276 different kinds of churches, you know, it's just one church. It's just in 276 bits and pieces. It feels sometimes like it's at odds with science.

1:43:33But it's not. Science is the pursuit of truth. And so these are pilgrims too. The great scientists are trying to crack the code of the physical world. The great theologians are trying to crack the code of the metaphysical world. And nobody knows you. That's the thing about visualism, you know. That beautiful thing in, you know, everyone has it at their wedding. Love is patient. Love is kind. You can roll over here. Love is this. Love is that. And then it goes faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. And I remember talking with somebody and I was saying, well, why is love more important than faith?

1:44:17Why is love more important than hope? And the clue is a few verses later, where it says, we see through the mirror darkly.

1:44:33But one day, we'll see face to face. We know now in part. But one day, we will know fully as we ourselves are known. You cannot be a fundamentalist. And not understand that that is an explanation to just realize that you can have faith. You can have hope. But love means you need love. We need love because we cannot be sure our certainties, our certainties. That's the scary thing. And, you know, I trust a feeling as a musician. I trust it when I'm going to, you know, to sing or to improvise. But they're not certainties. They're instincts. Yeah. And I love that you feel that music is still a communal place.

1:45:34Our festivals are amazing. And people are deprived presently of a place where they feel comfortable. I'm comfortable in the back of a cathedral. I'm comfortable. It's your friend, the blues guy or a gospel church. I'm just looking for the spirit, wherever I find it, in a conversation. I can feel it when it's happening. When we're having an honest conversation, you feel it. It's the thing. And I can put down my salesman and just have a conversation. Because the three on that Anyura is probably my number. Because it's so excruciating. But it's the salesman. I sell ideas as well as songs. And I sometimes just have to just shut up.

1:46:34Yeah. I think we're all those things just to varying degrees. And I think the spirit of the thing is what you're talking about. This is an intangible moment where everybody realizes they're in it. Whether it's in a church where they're singing or one of my favorite moments with you was on the Jimmy Fallon show. Singing the ordinary love. Oh, wow. I loved it. We played it on the podcast. When it happened, the next day when it got out on YouTube, I brought it in here and I go, you gotta listen to this. This is just such an amazing rendition of a song. Because it's just you sitting on these chairs.

1:47:13And Jimmy Fallon is next to you on the table. Like this is it here. What a beauty. We played this. I want to listen to it. Let's put the headphones on. I fucking love this version.

1:47:56It's what I didn't fall in love. It's seen through its rocks together but turn on. It's just polystone. We can't fall any further. We can't see you lower than every other week. And I'm reaching it higher. We can't deal with other than everything.

1:48:33Burge fly high in the summer sky. The rest of the green. The same wind will take care of you and I will build our house in the tree. Your heart is on my sleeve. Did you put it there with a magic mug? For years I would believe that the world would wash its way. We can't fall any further. And we can't feel more than every other week. And I'm reaching it higher. We can't deal with other than everything. Burge fly high in the summer sky. Burge fly high in the summer sky. Burge fly high in the summer sky. Burge fly high in the summer sky.

1:49:50Burge fly high in the summer sky. Burge fly high in the summer sky. Burge fly high in the summer sky. Burge fly high in the summer sky. Burge fly high in the summer sky.

1:50:28That is that is without a doubt hands down my favorite performance ever ever on a talk show ever because it was so first of all it starts out so relaxed you're sitting on the couch and you're singing it and you're just so on it you're so on it that everyone just gets captivated by and then the music builds and then you bring it roots it's fucking phenomenal and that's like that is what we're talking about that's like this moment that elevates people it takes people out of their life and just this joy of expression all happening simultaneously with everybody in the crowd and ever and then when you stand up and you start dancing roots are playing whoa just watch over everybody that is it's how that you should should bring it up because I'm sitting in the table with a couple of journalists friends of friend of mine the economist Colt David McWilliams you'd love them by the way he's the guy who says the poor think in minutes the the rich thinking years you know they're kind of one of the one of his clothes but anyway sitting with a bunch of people and they're from London and this guy's going yeah he says McWilliams here he's all about you too he's all about you yeah he hasn't got any of your fucking records I have your records I've got all your records are fucking gone off you right gone right off you that fucking song ordinary love he's got whatever glass in his hand and he's getting the the Dutch and the British courage and the Irish courage and he's going that song you're about Mandela and all that so I'll listen to it as I fucking nothing and then I I was watching Jimmy Fallon you played the same song and he said I was in tears he said it's just something something happened yeah so I look at it and I'm going dodgy haircut on the singer but I am also being defensive because I can feel something too there is something going on that is the thing and then I knew too you know we're making an album at the moment and it has to be framed around that not that song not that even style of songwriting but that thing the the thing the moment the spirit whatever that is yeah and the conversation you're having it with your audience with somebody a deep listener by the way that same woman who said about listening she said deep listening is an act of surrender and so it's coming full circle for me well if you're in that audience there's an act of surrender for sure and if you're an artist if you're singing it yes that's you have to yes and everyone recognizes that that's why it resonates so I mean I I just think if we're rock and roll band there's four people in your band there's nobody sounds like Adam Clayton you know I mean he there's nobody sounds like edge it's nobody sounds like very modern and it's no we want to sell it mate no there's I can sing I can sing and I'm becoming the singer I you I am and that's the reason I'm still in a band because we all have to answer that question don't we why why would we still be in a band we've got to feel that it's our best album that's going to come yeah if it is it's going to be because we frame it around that moment in the room when that happens yeah I promise you I can't deliver that promise you for every song on the album I'll come back if you have me and I'll play you some of the songs but but for the live rock and roll pieces it has to have that I recognize that yeah you can come back anytime you want well by the way well thank you anytime but yeah that that that's what everybody wants out of entertainment out of celebration as everybody wants these moments yeah and that was a real moment that that was a real moment that resonated through the television I couldn't imagine would have been like to be in that room and I was thinking that like God I wish I was there because you know you see Will Smith and Will Smith in the corner you see him just taken over by the music like not as said like oh my god just in that moment it was so strange strange resonance I don't know if it was mentioned but he played Nelson Mandela oh no he played Muhammad Ali he played Muhammad Ali right right I got that wrong that would be funny that would be funny yeah but it was that's what everybody's looking for that's what everybody's looking for out of art out of religion out of just love and community we're looking for these moments that elevate us above everything else there's a moment when a great performance like that just when every one of the audience realizes what you're doing and we're all in it together and people at home are in it like that was so powerful it's everything through the television is like 60 % of what it is in person at the most you know we used to avoid TV because it's actually Bruce Springsteen advice years and years ago he said be careful be on TV because people can turn you down you know they can go off to the kitchen and you know right right right coffee so it's kind of right about that it can it can take away the mystery but you know that that studio that he's in Jimmy you know that's a historic place you know Beatles or whatever you know think of all the artists that have been in on the so there's something going on there oh yeah and and he he's he's a very beautiful spirit he just really seems like it I don't know him but I know I've been at late night with him I've been you know in in in all kinds of situations and it's just a really a see through heart you know transparent person's just you you see you see you see what he's thinking now how he does that night after night I will never know yeah like I'm I'm terrified going on those shows this is easy for me because I'm talking I don't do full stops and commas but you know I don't have to you're not asking me to I'm just having the conversation but to be sharp and be on it yeah I don't know if I'm going to be sharp or on it and part of being in you too is I've to be true to my mood and then I've to allow the the song to take me somewhere else and yeah my my yeah it's a funny thing you know yeah there's performing there's not much psychology written about being being being being books about on psychology of a singer probably there is for comedians or actors I think the problem is the only the people that can truly do it understand it right that's the problem you know the problem and then the what you're talking about confinement for the talk show format that's also what makes that moment so much greater is because it's the process yes it's just it's it's it's it's it doesn't belong there that that format is for hollow platitudes and selling a new television show and getting in and out before the seven minute commercial break it's a very it's the worst way to have a conversation where you get to get the most out of people because the most when you have time constraints on conversations that you immediately feel under the gun so you're kind of like tense and you're pressured and you don't know when and then and then the audience is staring at you and then there's bright lights everything is wrong everything is it's opposed to the way a normal comfortable human conversation and connection works works with silence around you and just people talking or in a pub or wherever you're at you know in a living room with friends at a party like that's the real human connection where it's open ended and you're just talking soon as you like lock it down and then you know you have to lock it down for commercials and you you have to button this up and there's a new person coming in in five minutes so they got to shuffle you out the door and hold up your album and tell everybody to buy it and then you leave and like was that good I guess it was good it's like you know what I mean if it's I don't I never like doing them I always felt confined and I would never do stand up on them I was always asked to do stand up on them like that's not where stand up belongs like but if someone can pull it off like there's been great comedians that pulled off incredible tonight show sets like Richard Jenny and George Carlin who's your yeah who's your favorite I mean pardon me I'm not gonna ask you about your mates but people that you we're talking earlier about singer people that I just looked up to who were the ones that formed you well when I was a child I was probably I guess I was 15 or 16 my parents took me to see live in the sunset strip in a theater and it was Richard prior he performed he did a concert special in a theater and I think it's his greatest performance and when I was there in the theater I was laughing so hard and I remember very clearly looking around at all these people and they were falling out of chairs laughing people were just falling back slapping each other going oh my god oh my god like they couldn't breathe and I remember thinking this guy is doing this just talking and I remember all the funny movies that I'd seen like stripes and you know all the great comedies animal house funny comedies nothing compared to this and this guy's just talking it was an incredibly profound moment for me I remember I got obsessed with Richard prior I started buying Richard prior cassettes that would buy like whatever I could you know you can find them I found a bunch that were like you had there were like weird printings of him at Red Fox's comedy club I actually found them in a truck stop once they were selling these cassettes I was like what is this and then I bought them and there were the incredible performances like 15 people in the crowd he's just ranting and going on these like unhinged rants about things he just having fun and being really loose and I just couldn't believe that someone could do that that he could just by talking this theater filled with people were just falling down laughing it just blown away yeah that was probably my first thought about stand -up comedy my first real thought just how like what a crazy power to have like what an unbelievable thing to be able to do with just your words yeah I saw Robin Williams do that a few times I was in a room with him and I just he just could not turn it off it was just and it was wild it was he was he was certainly not in control of it right that's we've there's a genius comedian called Tommy Tyrion and I don't know if you've seen him I've heard him again when he goes out and he doesn't go out often because I think it scares the shite out of what he's going to say next yeah and so that is the thing of having the material and then being able to blow you know just let go of the material yeah that's I think must be part of this is it yeah I mean I don't know I am yeah it's part of it yeah these ideas they come to and you just have to decide whether to embrace them or not like don't run with this and you get just you say the thing yeah but the art is in fact being able to say the thing you thought of that's I didn't strange one truly realize that and I never had any aspirations of comedy whatsoever when I was young when I was in when I loved Richard prior I just loved it as a fan just like I loved rock and roll I didn't want to be a singer I just loved it and then I saw kinesan and I think that was the first moment where I want oh this is comedy too wow okay what is comedy you know because everybody else had been like telling jokes or with prior it was like these stories of life that was so like revealing and so vulnerable but also hilarious like deeply fun just like so accurate in the caricatures of people and then there was kinesan I was like okay this is comedy too and the the first thing I ever saw of him I was actually introduced to him by a girl that I worked with a girl that I worked with at a gym I worked at the Boston Athletic Club I was a trainer I was teaching people out of lift weights and there was a lady who was a volleyball player who has friends with the work there she worked the front desk and she's like I saw HBO last night this comedian was so funny and in the parking lot of this gym that we worked out she did Sam kinesan's bit of homosexual necrophilia acts paying a bunch of money to be with the freshest male corpses have you ever seen the bit I have the bit is the guy he'll see imagine this you're there any your life you know you lying now you're like well I guess I'm dead now I'm gonna be alone with Jesus and that's gonna be great I would be in heaven hey he starts rocking back fuck what is this he feels like someone's gonna dick in my ass he made life keep fucking the ass even after your dad he never ends he never ends oh she's doing this impression she's lying on the parking lot on her stomach going back and forth and I'm dying laughing I was like I gotta see this so my first introduction at kinesan was this friend of mine her doing it on the concrete you did it that was good it was amazing you no no you're you're you're doing her doing oh yeah it was she did a great job she had to be howling who well well he was a huge one and Eddie Murphy for sure that was a huge one but then again that was also like I still didn't think I was going to do standup until I saw kinesan the first when I first saw kinesan that was when I was like maybe I can do because I had friends telling me to do it but it was friends that I did martial arts with so we would have to from the time I was 15 till I was like 21 22 all I did was travel around the country competing and I was with this such a wild combination if you don't want me saying it's just like it's just the martial arts seems so unfunny it's very you're you know you're you're you're fighting for your life it's very scary so in the when it's terrifying like that and everyone's nervous that's when gallows humor comes in oh and I was the guy who may I always needed attention when I was young so I was getting my attention from being really good at fighting but then I was also getting my attention around the also the people that really good at fighting at being funny so when we were all like you know a bunch of fucking crazy people the their hobby was to travel around the country trying to kick people unconscious right so this is the this is the group that I'm hanging out with and you know most of them were older than me I was the youngest because I was in high school at the time most of these were grown men and I was competing against grown men while I was in high school which is another crazy thing my instructor was hardcore and he threw me to the grown man when I was 16 it was terrifying but because it was so terrifying I developed this way of releasing steam and so my friend of releasing my way of releasing steam I'd make fun of different guys that we trained with having sex like how we probably does it and this and that and we were always just I was just always trying to crack people up and I had one friend and I'm still really good friends with to this day my friend Steve Graham who talked me and I do understand them and I never thought I'm like you think I'm funny because you like me I go but you're crazy too like you're a fucking psychopath as well like you're you think I'm funny because you're doing the same thing that I'm doing like we're nutty people we're not normal other people are going to think I'm an asshole and then the when you walked out though you to tell me what how was he there when you walked out the first time oh yeah who's there the first night yeah so can you paint me the picture I was at a comedy club else terrible to open my night I did like five minutes it was horrible but I got a couple of laughs I got a couple of chuckles and I was like I got off stage I was like I think I could do this the weirdest thing was like I had probably at that time I was 21 years old I'd probably thought at least a hundred times and I was way more terrified of doing comedy way more scared way more scared like fighting was scary but I was like I know it just has to start once it starts I know what to do like the real fear of comedy or of fighting was before the fight it was all the demons all the the thing why am I doing this why you're really fighting that's your fighting you're fighting the fear but I knew once it started wouldn't be scared at all because you don't feel fear when you're fighting because it's you're so in the moment you're you're in the moment you're zen you almost don't exist you know it's that you have to to operate at the highest level to have like instantaneous reactions and be able to manage your pace and all these different things you can't think about yourself or how you look or how you feel or whether your girlfriend's mad at you or whether you're going to fail at a high school you have to be locked into what you're doing so I wasn't afraid of fighting I was afraid of everything before fighting I was afraid of feelings and so but that's where the comedy came from the comedy came from like alleviating that you know and right so there is a symbiosis there there's there's a thing in it it's a task a very complicated task the way I describe fighting is it's high level problem solving with dire physical consequences that's what it really is you could call it fighting you can think it's a tradition to say that again I might be the title of our new album high level problem solving with dire physical consequences so as far as like sport meta in front of the physical consequences yes we got ourselves an album yes it's the most consequential of all sports because when someone beats you they don't just beat you they take away everything you are as a man when someone destroys you in in a competition you are not a man anymore you are significantly decreased in your value everything about you you feel terrible it's good you were you are as good the day you walked in there confident and you still feel like shit where you felt like you could take on the world you have the same skills you're as good as you felt when you could take on the world and now you feel like utter dog shit and yet we know that failing is how we succeed you know the Samuel Beckett lines fail fail again fail better I may have failed to get the quote right but if that's it you know fail fail failure that pain is fuel yeah the pain of failure is the most potent fuel the most potent inspiration known to man and the more terrifying the failure whether it's failure and stand -up comedy or its failure in that's very high stakes if you think about it I'm just thinking this through the second both your chosen passions entail the risk of humiliation yeah you have to have that that's the only way you get back wow that's tricky yeah super tricky I might I grew up my best mate since I was three years old he just gave me my name my bono he gave us all names but and his family names is genius really paint you became his painters father there was tough stuff going on on our street in their house and he he grew up well the father used to just kind of religious extremist let's call it that used to humiliate the kids by putting a bowl on their hair on their and cutting their hair so they'd walk around with these putting my hands so everyone would be not like around be like yeah they were just so fast they were all they could all look after themselves and like the boy name so it's it is the Johnny Cash song boy name so they are they and so Guggy my mate so I grew up sparring with him that's just how literally how we grew up and his so we were told the boxing matches all the obvious ones and he just really went into him his obsession came mixed martial arts so he wants his kids he's you know they're going down the gym and then my godson okay his name is Noah and he comes Guggy and this is not a joke this is not a joke so Guggy my mate since I'm three years old comes up and he goes oh he says Noah he wants to give up fighting you know cage fighting and I said oh that's that's okay I said what do you want to do he wants to be a doctor and I'm like Guggy this is a really your kid wants to be a doctor and you're disappointed he could be such a great fighter and I said Guggy he wants to be a doctor this is by the way he became a doctor this is not this story that that's how it ended but I said and he but Guggy's but he was such a good fire I said why did he give up he said he's down the gym he said I can't even beat the best guy in the gym if I can't beat the best guy in the gym does no point in me having a big career he said the best guy in the gym was got him a Gregor and he was a few years older so it's and then two of the other kids are fighters now so I've grown up around it and because of my mates and his and his kids and but that thing of of combat being comfortable in combat is the thing you need to be careful of because you can end up there and sometimes I do you see because it's an art form for you it's it's it's it was a you know profession it was a it's different but people like me fighter flight is a problem because sometimes fight is on and I and there is no fight right so that's part of the shut up and this and instructions I'm receiving from which is I'm kind of born that's with my fists up and and from wherever way just growing up and being around what I was around and experiencing what I experienced I have that and and and and even in the band I'm a bit like that and and so I've got to be careful because it's not always somebody coming around the corner who wants to take you out and they might actually just want to take you out right right right and it's it's not becoming of to to be combative at all times so I'm I'm learning to put my fist down I'm learning to spend those times in the morning thanking God that I'm alive because I had heart surgery as we talked about earlier it and just waking up is great just like wow I've just woken up what a thrill and I'm trying to get to that place with not with the world but with myself what made peace with the world I certainly have not but I am making more peace with myself which is sometimes a bit harder and and and and the family and listening to the more and and and yeah that's that's that's it this this combat thing is is interesting were you in in the neighborhood I asked you earlier but where are the people is there people you can remember sure from like I was being like on you on you on me on not from the time I started training once I started training I got very good very quick and I became kind of known for it because he was still picking because I was I was doing it at a at a crazy way it wasn't as simple as like oh he takes karate it's like no he on the weekends he's traveling around the country and fighting in tournaments you know and I I was winning him you know so I was it was I found a thing very early on that I could excel at that was scary that people and I've realized through that thing you get good at anything you just have to put your attention and focus to it and well when do you put your attention to focus to something the the most well when your literal health relies on success it was so scary that you couldn't have acid which is like I have a problem with things that involve too much personality and charisma where they could mask truth and I think this is the problem with evangelical preachers this is the problem with politicians and it could be anybody but it's like there's the siren call that will lead you to the rocks and it's believing your own bullshit and fighting was it didn't matter what your personality was it didn't matter it's empirical yeah it did nothing mattered it didn't matter how many people liked you if you get kicked in the head you get fucked up and on the flip side of it I used to love when I would go to someone else's hometown and they had all these people beating like a cheering for them all these people like you know you're gonna fuck them up all these people cheering the corn I would love that was my favorite thing my favorite thing I was like they can't help you do you have rage me now no I'm just well when you're fighting I mean obviously my what we do in music as we try to turn rage into something beautiful and that's what rock and roll is the sound of you know I think it was Neil Young has said something like sound or revenge yeah whatever it's rage for sure there's rage that's a separate certain bands you want to know what the difference between a pop and a rock and roll man rage rage against the machine and you bet and and fuck you I won't do it to tell me yeah we we have that and that was that was coming through me and and I had to so I'm just wondering where you where did you get that rage from or maybe you didn't have it I mean I'm told by some people that it's like Mike Tyson had rage yeah but some boxers you know they didn't they could they could they could they thought it made them weak it it well it gets in the way of clear thinking and you know I had this guy named Yuri Prohaska on the podcast recently he's brilliant fighter who's in the UFC who's the light heavyweight champion at one point in time and still one of the top light heavyweight the world and we were talking about anger and rage and it leads you down a bad path of decision making when you're fighting yeah it interferes with the flow it interferes with the way and then what I was saying before when you're competing you know I've never competed at that level when you're competing at a world championship level anything that fucks with your mind anything where you're doubting yourself or talking to yourself or all that is resources that is being allocated towards something that's completely useless as opposed to being like completely in the moment and in the zone if you get taken out of it for a moment if they feel for a moment that you're thinking like you're looking for a way out you're looking to quit you're gone you're done like when your friend was saying that his son didn't want to be a fighter anymore this is my advice always whenever someone says I'm thinking about stopping fighting I go quit quit right now because somewhere out there the someone does that not thinking about stopping at all I'm gonna fuck you up yeah they're gonna come for you it's good it's gonna it's gonna be terrifying you're locked in a ring with Mike Tyson and you've been thinking about getting a regular job like yeah you're fucked you're fucked because there's all in people and my opinion I love fighting but I think only all in people should be fighting and the moment you're not all in get out you got to get out because the difference between an all in person and a one foot out the door person is enormous it's enormous yeah even if skill level is similar the person who's all in is a terrifying person they they all they want to do is this one thing and they're completely focused on it just being the best in the world this one thing they're gonna find holes in you they're gonna find they're gonna find your weaknesses they're gonna push you in a way that maybe you didn't push yourself as far in the gym so come the second round come to third round you start breaking down and they're not breaking down at all they're breaking you down it's a terrifying place to be when you know you're not all in and the other person's all in so anybody if that was my son he's like I'm thinking about quitting what good quit that's what I'd say quit find something else you love find what you love you don't have to do this but if you're gonna do this you gotta you gotta only do this this has to be your fucking life right you're fucking life I mean I don't want you to be a rock star and a fighter shut the fuck up you can't be both yeah it's not possible if you want to do that thing that thing is your whole life there's a I don't have any tattoos bit if I did it kind of amazing you got this far without no time to know if I did it's I have a and there's a quotes it's from Nietzsche and I wouldn't normally quote from Nietzsche you know I'm bad interested in Nietzsche but I he's done he's read some some some aphorisms that I like and whatever but in our summer place and where we go to there's a little trail called the Nietzsche trail and it's apparently he apparently came up with this line which is for anything truly great to take place there requires and this would be my tattoo along obedience in the same direction oh that's good so so that's so and I think of edge when I think of that I don't think of me I'm I'm sort of I'm just I'm I'm I'm just my I'm just my curiosity just takes me into place I shouldn't be but that long obedience in the same direction that's that's what you're talking about yes um does it apply to people to tickling I always wonder what would be great and if you're I think the biggest fighter ever and just a little tickle and um it's like maybe that's that's I think people would have already tried that come on man you gotta do it you're so filled with adrenaline you don't feel techles yeah you're spelled out there was a group comedian called Ken Dodd I remember from Liverpool was the kid growing up he'd a he'd a feather he used to just tickle people I'll get the tattoo you get the you get the feather the feathers awesome oh it is a funny thing that that quote is so accurate it's it's one of the greatest quotes of all time I think it's a strong quote and and it's you know it's a person who's he is pushing away higher the concept of higher consciousness for a lot of his life and yet he managing to bump into it there's a quote of his I swear I'd read but when we were doing the book we couldn't find it anyway so I might have made it up but he was he was because that's a history that our family Jamie will find it and well it's not it's it's a it's it's it's about friendship and I don't think it's pretty like neutral I don't think so but it's the idea is that friendship is it is is deeper kind of wider it's less dramatic um then you know romantic love but it is it's it's somehow the essence of great relationships is is actually friendship I think that's Nietzsche but we couldn't find it so I may have just made it up so love be deeper friendship is more wide from like Chronicles of Narnia I'll take that too thank you Jamie I'll take it my dad was funny um he he used to quote this playwright Irish player I call sing you say about because he was suspicious of nationalism because Ireland you know you would be this was a country was nearly at civil war and along sectarian lines so he used to say Ireland what is Ireland but the land that keeps my feet from getting wet so that's a great quote of sings so when we did the book Surrender book was on not so they went off they couldn't find it anywhere you couldn't find the quote anyway because he made it up wow and and it's a great quote and I think it's okay if you say something three times it's yours right yeah so I'll but you know I'm in a band with my friend and that friendship is pulled and pushed and it's difficult and at some point one of us is usually trying to break up the band but it's a very deep bond can I say something about that was really great about the film as well when it's the fact that it's a true democracy in your band it's annoying isn't it but it's but I would expect nothing less from you when when you said that and I wasn't aware of that I was like of course of course that's how you would set it up but we well it's it's fine to be a democracy but we share things also the economics yes that's where exactly exactly and and we to manage your poem again us for most of our life and it was one of these things you said just don't ever be fighting about whose song it is and because in the background it's like I want my song on the album or I've got to just get rid of that yeah just share everything and make sure that you all feel like a stake in each other yes and and so the arguments in you too are never about well this is my idea so you're really stepping on my toes we've developed a call a sort of band ego bigger than individual emails even any goes big as mine this is bigger this is even bigger and it's the quiet ones but yeah I think we've learned to just the great we don't we don't argue about what's very good sorry we do argue about what's very good we don't argue about what's great so if we're talking about is that that chorus now that guitar yeah but I said no yeah but it's all for a purpose but we're all just talking about we never but when it's great people just back off we just know it's like greatness has its own what's the word as it's own brings with it a certain acquiescence to that yeah and then you learn that very good is the enemy of greatness it's not even next to our neighbors like we used to be with you too we were really crap or great but then we got very good very dangerous being very good it's not helpful because there's a chasm chasm between what is very good and great greatness what you were talking about there back on on Jimmy Fallon that's a moment of greatness it's it's it's not which is different from saying we were great it was great and and very good could be just sitting there playing the song good it's it's a very fine song and these are very fine players but that could just be very good it didn't make that moment that resonated so deeply with me that I brought it up we played it multiple times on this podcast over the years I'm really happy you did and and that's what the my friend I forget his name or my friend I just met the first time at the kitchen table who was who had you know had the guts to say he's so disappointed because this the recording of that song was just very good that's really what he's saying yes yes you hadn't captured like but I think that unique moment of the way you guys did it is what made it so special is because you know Jimmy Fallon sitting there Will Smith is sitting there and you're just on these chairs and you're singing on the chair so you're moving on the chair and then eventually everything picks up and you're standing up and dancing and the whole crowd like felt it was like this build up to it at all flow together but it just I haven't seen that back by the way so really no no I haven't seen I'm probably still on the night or the next day oh wow so I haven't I sent that to everybody yeah I sent a doll my friends when it soon as it came out online I was like you got to see this thank you for for that but there might be something to do with the fact that the four members of that band feel equally involved in that song there might be and that the democracy which is such a pain in the whole is actually one of the reasons that when you two walks on to a stage people tell me even if they're not bands you know they just come along as guests their hair come up in the back of their neck and I explain actually that happens to us too it's a strange thing when we walk out and it seems to me that I haven't figured this out that the whole the universe conspires to break up great relationships right you fall in love romantic it's because this this is families now this doesn't have to be your partner in life your wife your husband your but families kids everything it's it's just the whole world is just seems set against it's them surviving you know all the it just pulls at us like gravity itself you're resisting and so when you manage to get through it and you're standing there the forest and there's something going on that feels like you've resisted gravity or whatever forces that pull you apart there's something about it and some nights it's really not easy and but I mean not the music but the the friendship and but we we we've we're through it right now and you feel it in these recordings and you'll feel us in a way rediscovering each other that's amazing I haven't been playing for we just played in London acoustically the Ivanovella was the first time in five years the four of us played together because Larry had a back injury and so but yeah there's something in the chemistry well there's also the fact that you guys continue to create because one of the things that happens to great bands is they become a prisoner to their old songs yeah they've got to be big careful there yeah a lot of bands like yeah ordinary love that's what's so beautiful because that's in the last is that it's like 10 years old or something something on those lines which is I mean a minute yeah if you've been around for we'll be around I think the first time we met in Larry's kitchen is it will be 50 years next fall in the kitchen wow drummer wants musicians whatever we get we're visually and in the in the film you know we've got the the kitchen table we've got the chairs you know because I'm on the road with you know 250 Mac trucks and a space station and whatever with you too but here you could put everything into a station wagon it's like it literally a table in chairs and the chairs are edge Adam and Larry and and I've got to you know I use the the kitchen table as operating theater so it starts with the heart surgery it's the it's the hospital bed where my father says goodbye with the to me with the expletive and and it's and it's the kitchen table where all operas really begin in the kitchen don't they it's like you're sitting there in our case it'd be me my father my brother mother's past and we're just it's just male rage and it's different shapes and forms so I get to to be on the road with a table and chairs but then I get to bring out the chair there's Larry but yeah there's edge there's Adam I introduced him as chairs and it was it was amazing for me to have that experience of of doing things and telling their story if their memoirs come out I'm fucked but but no I really am but it's over and I'm done with the past I'm not sure the past is done with me but I'm doing my very best to deal with the past in order to get to the present to make this the sound of the future so the songs on the next album when you are or whomever you're with or your kids or whatever are ads and the Joshua Tree or whatever it is park or at the lake here in Austin Texas and you're listening to our new album that we will take you somewhere because it has to be these songs have to be they have to be everything or what's the point right what is the creative process for you when you are when you have a concept for a song when you have an idea like how does it work do you do ideas just come to do sit until they come to you do sit in front of a pad and write them down is that that is never been an issue like edge of myself are the sort of song starters and and I mean he is I think we were counting them up the last time I keep like 526 he said quite 536 songs I have here I said they're not sounds the right dears and he goes this one's a song like oh yeah that might be and and I will have and have stuffed in my phone and paper and air India's sick bags and whatever else I've written my life and the glimpses that you get and I don't write out a misery which is great because I know some people have to be really miserable before they're out I write out of joy a lot of the time sometimes I'm I'm writing my way out of a situation but but most times I'm writing my way into something and and especially with this next album I just think the world needs it needs some needs some yeah some wild guitar music but it also does not need the blues right we're in the blues right now yeah and we're in danger we're in danger but you you did say I'm one of your recent podcasts you were saying hold on a second still more people got access to water and heat and or air conditioning and have in the history of the planet so you got what to keep we just don't want to lose that perspective and we don't want to you know this credible thing in in 20 years if you think about it I mean maternal mortality halved more than half and people coming out of extreme poverty some of this is China some of this is capitalism some of this is that but it's I do I don't want to lose the sense of the next chapter could be our best and and that's going to need vision yeah and I'm not talking about you too is new but but that has part of it because art changes the collective consciousness of a civilization and songs that really deeply resonate with young people that have a that are great songs that also have a message and carry with them conversations that people have about the songs and about what's going on the world it shifts consciousness it shifts consciousness in a positive way and those young people may grow up to become people that aren't corrupt politicians that aren't corrupt congressmen that don't give in to the lobbyists and especially interest groups but really look out for their constituents and they get into it for the right reasons because everybody's going to be co -opted if you don't you know you're right yeah we better be good then and you and I for me the go to group with Beatles and and I I had this moment where Paul McCartney picked me up at John Lennon Airport he was driving the car and brought me and kind of showed me where the different neighborhoods of the Beatles and which is an amazing experience and he'd stop and he'd say oh this is where this happened and that's where I mean he said do you mind me telling you this and I'm like are you kidding and and then he stopped at the traffic lights and he said oh yeah that's what I had like our first real kind of conversation you know with with me and John I said hold on a second I'm a bit of a Beatles student didn't you have that when you were in the quarry man and such it says no no no no it was different level he bought a bar of chocolate and after the war you know chocolate was really hard to come by you know it was kind of a real luxury and and he bought the bar of chocolate and he didn't give me a square he broke it cabries milk chocolate broke it in half and I said oh so you're into sharing too so yeah and he said I don't know why I'm telling you that and he drove on and I just thought oh I know why you're telling me that greatest collaboration not just in music in history music maybe the greatest collaboration in the history of culture started with half wow they shared they gave it my mate Guggy who I just spoke about the who knows all about you and knows all about your your your sport he taught me everything he had and and they came in it it was tough at times as I told you in their hacks and he just gave me half of it every got just half so when I we're in you two and our manager begins as you share everything I was like yeah I'm sharing everything I've been sharing everything anyway and it's an even now age and myself were sitting in our house you know we'd be sharing this place in the south of France we've been there for 30 years all our families were going to grown up there French are too into themselves to bother us which is really why we like it and and we sit there and we think the re -lownies are going to come right you know what because we still we still don't really believe this has happened to us and you know what I think that's probably right because we don't really own this stuff you you you get it for a short period and then you hand it on I think it I think something about the four and the way we share is in the sound of our music I think is that too no no I think you're dead right I think that when you you know and I was just standing there with the Jimmy family and he's but it's him playing the time brain and and yeah there's something again there's not much scholarship about this type of stuff that you can read up but it resonates right you can read yeah I believe it I think there's something to it it's it's a you've you've made decisions that have sort of affirmed this commitment to a higher goal it's not a hierarchy of you know who's who's the lead singer who's this who's that it's not who's the big star it's just we're all together to do this thing I'm in a band where every member of the band thinks they're the leader I think that's every band and I voted for this yeah and and it's sort of great and I think it's worked out you know and you guys are still together you know which is also a giant win you know I mean that's one of them no could run out of road any minute but but while whilst we're while we're running down the road it's it's a it's a it's a thrill I think that's also what makes you great is the same feeling that some of the real owners are gonna come like like you never really buy into it even though it's you and that's yeah that's real that I think we all should have that and I think if you lose that you're in trouble I think we should all have that I think that that's right I call this I'm gonna learn some of this from my wife he's to say don't you know look up to me don't look down at me as a woman look across to me that's where I am okay and there was a lesson in that about horizontal

2:44:06relationships rather than the vertical ones right I don't have a boss I don't want to be a boss yes I mean I have that relationship with the band that is equal I have a with my mates and it's just I it's just way I know it to be the most efficient and you know the boss is the boss I mean Bruce it's an amazing thing what he does and it's it's his vision and he's found a team around him to help him realize his vision it's like you going out on on the boards you write your own material it's your point of view that's not I'm I'm part I think there's two stories they say in cinema there's the the gang and the man against the stranger comes to town I think it's one that's and then this the stranger goes off in the Odyssey but usually there's a gang that's that's a different story that's the third story maybe I'm in the gang yeah comedians are in a gang too we're in a gang of club we're in a gang together like well convened together and I mean a gang in terms of like a collaborative gang too we work together we work on ideas together we talk about bits together you know especially at my place at the comedy mothership did set up like that the whole club was set up entirely for comedians right completely different pace structure than any other club pays way more than other clubs to the comedians get most of the money we get most of the most we get the money from liquor essentially liquor and a small percentage of the ticket sales but most of it goes to the comics and the the vibe of the place is not that it's my place the vibe is that this is our place I I paid the bill but I shouldn't have had that much money in the first place it's ridiculous like the whole thing is crazy like that you could do something like this and if you could do something like this you're supposed to if you're the person that for whatever reason the universe is blessed you with so a lot of zeros throw it at something the fun let's do it and so it's ours and so there's there's that in comedy too you can't ever get sounds clear of actually as I say it but you know I've lived you can't outgift god no like you know you just more you yeah more you that's and that's sort of saying also about the blessing on America you know one of the things I do like about some of these churches is not the ones of pressure on you but you know people will give some cash every week to help with what's going on you know far away places whatever and they tie I think they call it tie I think and and it's it's just part of the blessing of America is this okay so it's it's it's it's it's less in one percent it's half of one percent of the government budget keep all these people alive all over the world they love America because they love America they're not going to be a problem for America they don't love it takes them away from terrorism takes them away from anti -Americanism it takes them puts points in the direction of freedom that's a blessing so if you count your zeros and you say that's mine that's ours we're not sharing that with those people the definition of neighbor is oh it's just next door right be careful because because there is a bigger blessing out there there's just a bigger blessing and and it most certainly is and it sounds like you're in it and and and and it is in the bit by it it is in the business where you'll see it because people have of a great mouth on them I have a big fucking mouth but it's not about what you're talking about it's what you're doing it's how you're living it's how you it's that's the you two thing it's not just about the songs it's the it's the way you did you use the word way a minute ago you said it's the way when you're fighting yeah anything that takes you away sure what is what did you mean by that is a great quote by me Motu Musashi this is the guy I actually have tattooed on my right arm it's once you understand the way broadly you can see it in all things beautiful yeah and the the concept is he was the greatest samurai that ever lived he killed 60 men in one on one combat with swords he got to the point no problem he was killing people's he was killing people so easily he decided to stop using swords and he would like fashion a wooden sword out of an ore from a boat on the way over to go kill the guy so it's like googie he it was an extraordinary human being but he wrote a book on strategy called the book of five rings yeah and go and no show the book of five rings it's this book is all about where's he from Japan all about how you from the 1400s you you had to be balanced in everything to be a great warrior you had to be great at calligraphy you could you had to be great at poetry you had to be an artist you you had to be able to meditate you you had to be balanced you had to know the way and don't let any bullshit I mean this is the modern interpretation don't let your ego don't let other people's perceptions don't let insecurities and don't let anything he's saying stay on the way and the way is like this way of thought the once you how you know everybody says how you do anything is how you do everything this was his earliest version of it this is wonderful you understand the way broadly you will see it in all things it's that Nietzsche this path to greatness once you realize what that is like oh this is this is this intense focus and dedication to something that could be applied to anything you could be applied you could apply it to be in a better father you could apply it to being someone who writes books you could you could apply it to music you could apply it to anything but it's that's what it is it's like finding what the thing is and throwing the essence of you at that thing like really doing it and to do that correctly you can't have you know macho issues you can't have insecurity probably things that you're compensating for you it should be pure you have to it's a constant struggle stunning as they have a stunning insights in my path or I suppose or whatever you call my practice I have this I am the way the truth and the life this is what I learned from Jesus become a bumper sticker probably taking the the meaning of it away but it's but it's the same thing I've got to because when I focus on this this kind of this this radical idea to serve you know you know to rather than to lead to to be no greater love and all that all this stuff unfortunately this language has been ruined for you guys I'm so sorry kind of but no but it's powerful it's powerful yeah it's real and it's and and this this Jesus is a long way from the one that you meet on these kind of sales programs and but it's it's it is humility and it is it is it is service and it is discipline and it is not my will thy will it is indeed surrender and anyone wherever they are in the world Japan in 1400s or the 15th century or every anyone ever scientists you know the pursuit of truth it just gathers is um yeah there's there's there's there's something about I don't trying to think of the word the sort of gathering where you you we we will all end up in the same place if we're really true and I'm not talking about a life after death as a like if to you know enter a competition but we all we're in the same resilience I think is the word I think it was I think it was I don't know who wrote a book called resilience but it's the idea that all disciplines all art forms everything comes together on a point a kind of convergence but the word is conciliance and if it isn't I just made up a great word it's a great word hey there you go Jamie well that that those moments that were that's the book were great art hits that peak really good thank you that's really good Jamie's the best how did you not know how long of I've been talking I mean I'm three hours because I this happening I don't know why you this is my family at this point have begun to bed he's just the two of us at the fire Jamie's locked in Jamie's locked in maybe like see it later dude that thing though is like what we all it's what we know how hard it is to reach to like ordinary love like when you guys were doing that we know that that's not a first take you know that's not like you just wrote the song and you guys are out there jamming no that that's it's a polished song and the fact that you're doing this and you're you're you're doing it acoustic right there sitting on a chair like everything is off right like you're not on the stage there's not a spotlight on you there's no mist there's no lights like all the theatrics are removed you're in a brightly lit studio sitting down with a bunch of people beside you which is like the most unrock and roll thing of all time right it's corporate almost like no one does that but yet it's like yet you fucking nailed it and it that moment it took everybody to a better place that's what we're all hoping for in in everything that we're hoping for that far from our leaders we're hoping for that one speech that won JFK speech where you just go oh my god yes that's that's that's the prayer we don't believe Clinton when he was young yeah these speeches that made us feel better about human as human beings better about the country that's the danger of the conflicted times that we're in is that people don't feel good even about America there's people that think that the American flag is a symbol of injustice it's like it's that's a crazy thought like America's you too it's not just you to the ban but it's all it's it's us it's all of us human beings regardless of your political ideology and we got to think of that first where a community where a neighborhood you know we we should think of ourselves as a giant neighborhood and we don't we think of ourselves as opposing tribes that are in in this battle to stay in control of whatever the direction of the country is and it's being orchestrated by artificial intelligence bots that are constantly battling with people online and state actors and intelligence agencies and money and all this shit is together and it's all confusing everybody as to what is the purpose of being a human being that's alive with other human beings the the purpose is community the communing we're supposed to be a united states we're supposed to be a community and all the differences that we have the political differences in the idea they should be so fucking secondary that it should be a small part of the elections a small part of the election should be policy because we should just all agree that we should figure out you want to have a good use of AI figure out what's the objective best use of resources to support the collective whole and how does that get accomplished how does that get accomplished without fraud and waste and what's the best way to to navigate where it doesn't have fraud that should be done whether it's democrats or republic it should be like what are we looking for we're looking to clean up the lakes we're looking to stop pollution we're looking for clean energy sources we're looking for education we're looking for healthcare reaching housing we're looking to get people off the streets that have mental health issues and get them help and don't just give them fentanyl and give them money for needles that's stupid don't let them camp on the street that's stupid also stupid ignoring them right that's stupid too so some real resources and once we do that we could all do better the whole country can do better we'll be less at each other's threats there'll be less anxiety it could be accomplished but we have to address the primary factor in this country for crime and horrible behavior it's completely disenfranchised neighborhoods it's areas that have been fucked since the 1940s and they're not doing anything to change them and no one's pouring any resources to try there's no plans to try to revitalize these communities and elevate these people out of like dire poverty and gang violence and and and drug use there's there's a way to do it it's not impossible but there's no resources put out at all that should be another thing that shouldn't be a republican thing or a democrat thing why should we spend money on that it shouldn't be it should be the community the people who voted for Donald Trump who I'm not a fan of and I know you have respect for him and I respect that but the people who voted for him I have immense respect for them and their sense that they felt left out of the American dream a lot of people and in so many ways when you know the world got globalized and a lot of people did very well out of that particularly in the global south but everyone in America I think you know a lot of people a lot of communities paid the price for that and I don't know what the pie was grown after I think was supposed to be a trillion dollars that ended up being the pie was I think was one and a half trillion so there was enough money to invest in communities but it never happened and so people were pissed off if if and I'm I'm I think we should be with those people I'm not sure this is going to be the answer that they were looking for and if it's not I would encourage people because I'm not an American I don't vote I'm Irish just you'll know I trust in the wisdom of crowds I really do I mean I mean you too and I you know Americans will know and they and they and they must I can see where they're going right now they're trying out this new version of themself and where it's where we're we're not interested in the wider world as much we're trying to fix our own problems I would say they are bound up in each other and I would say there's a higher purpose for America than the one that's been offered presently but I don't want to get into the policy I think it's an over correction yeah I think I just don't you know I really hope so because we really really really need you the world we need America and this this European project we we've a land war on the outskirts of Europe it is the most astonishing thing and and and we don't know what's next Poland if you ever you know the Polish people they've two million Ukrainians staying with me never complain these are the most remarkable people you'll ever meet there's all that money that was invested in I guess who George C.

3:00:38Marshall and an American general who became Secretary of State who had the cleverness to say after the war the second world war and they I think was like 4 % of the GDP was invested in you in the rebuilding of Europe and the idea was we have to make Europe succeed and that's how we will defeat communism and so when Ronald Reagan you know pronounced a debt sentence on the Soviet Union and the reason Mikhail Gorbachev threw his hands up and said we've got this project is over is because he knew that people could see it was dysfunctional and he knew that was a better life across the wall the other side of the Iron Curtain and sometimes it takes putting your money or your mouth is to show what freedom is America did that we owe America and and we need you that's all I want to say we we need we need you and and together wow it's 450 million people in Europe it's like you know we don't be fighting with Canadians the Mexicans here right you put all this together this is formidable and these boring people who are listening to you probably tuning in now where you're speaking about what they're saying it's said something about the good goods country like it and they hit the mushroom it's like you wouldn't know you've never been lifted by music sir you know you know you wouldn't know they send people to death but it's a bellonium of the bum this is like come on it's like you come in your times up and you know I know we want to rewrite history and all the rest of it but but you can't do that we are free people and it is great to be free and I I don't want to stop singing songs about freedom I want to be it and that's what we talked about that's I think that's it as human beings there's a constant struggle I think there's a constant struggle to find the path and I think we go through a series of overcorrections and a series of going really far left and really far right and you know order disorderly yeah I think Richard Roer's thing it's part of the battle of good and evil there's there's a thing that you believe is good and evil I do I do I believe it I think it's naive to think that if evil acts occur there's no true evil I think it's naive and evil acts are undisputable and the concept of evil has always existed I think and we can become part of it yes you've seen it outside of pub when people the somebody's down kid goes down yeah oh yeah oh yeah you've seen it at a football match yep well probably in American football you don't but in in Europe and football and soccer you see mad violence and it's like a spirit you can watch it in a crowd yeah and and it's we've you know I'm we've all we've all been part of it not it's not like we're separate from it right it's it's an entanglement right but rarely is evil so obvious is great um it's a great book by by Bogecoff called a master in the margarita if you heard of it no the devil appears in the rooftops of musk and he goes oh this is going to be fun nobody believes I exist it's one of the great but the stone's sympathy for the devil I think that's inspired by it but this it's some it's insidious sometimes evil it's harder to spot but I think we know we we kind of know it when we when we see it it's full force which just can't be afraid of sounding foolish no and when you say that you I think evil's a real thing you you can you can't measure it right you can't prove it exists right but you know that's what I say you know but science you know science we we need science we don't need science to prove that evil exists we we need religion to suggest that it exists and how we might deal with it and in ourselves first let's suggest you were talking about fighting the biggest opponent you it would appear is you is indeed yourself you're up against yourself I've got to that place and I'm not a sportsman competent but just in my own walk I really is wow all these people I thought I was you know I was up against you know in my head it's it's yourself yes I love this thing of the way I'm going to remember that and I love the truth and and I love I love I love I love being alive I love the life I'm gonna I'm gonna hold on to that please do I keep doing whatever you're doing man I appreciate you very much thank you thank you for coming here you're absolutely and absolutely I enjoyed it inspired by it but this it's some it's insidious sometimes evil is harder to spot but I think we know we we kind of know it when we when we see it it full force which just can't be afraid of sounding foolish and when you say that you I think evil's a real thing you you can you can't measure it right you can't prove it exists right but you know that's what I say you know but science you know science we we need science we don't need science to prove that evil exists we we need religion to suggest it that it exists and how we might deal with it and in ourselves first I would suggest you were talking about fighting the biggest opponent you it would appear is you is indeed yourself yeah up against yourself I've got to that place and I'm not a sportsman competent but just in my own walk I really is wow all these people I thought I was you know I was up against you know in my head it's it's yourself yes I love this thing of the way I'm gonna remember that and I love the truth and and I love I love I love being alive I love the life I'm gonna I'm gonna hold on to that please do I keep doing whatever you're doing man I appreciate you very much thank you thank you for coming here you're absolutely and absolutely I enjoyed it