#2331 - Jesse Michels

26:48And so, like, it sort of forces us back into that construct. But if you get some crazy asymmetric, lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things that, like, dissolves that construct, on the one hand, humans, you know, they start to care about, like, the things that actually make them special. So, like, they're self -reflective. They wrote poetry. They're creative. Like, all these beautiful things can come out. And then, on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well. There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.

27:26Yeah, but it's one of those things where you wonder, like, how does capitalism play out? Like, if there is AI, it kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore. Yeah. Well, this is, this is the reason that I think we're going to see. I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology. And I think there is technology that is black technology and science that is black science. And then I think there's stuff out in the open. And you've had, you know, Mark Andrewson on your podcast, he went to the White House, spoke to some national security council staffer or something. And they were like, we're going to lock down AI, just like we've locked down physics.

28:06And so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and, you know, super secret department of energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened. You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since that's insane. There is black science in my opinion. And it's, I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white side AI. Because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy nilly, I mean, it just runs a mark. And then, and then what happened? Like you probably need some like really impressive panel to be thinking.

28:40If open AI figures out some like new, insane, exciting unlock, you need to think through all, you need to game out all of the implications before you just like that. You can't even do that with a human mind. It's a great. Yeah. So we were using the brain AI and to help you game for AI. Oh, we're fucked. It's fucked. That's what I'm saying. Because once it becomes sentient, right? And once it becomes autonomous and can kind of make its own decisions. Like that's kind of game over. Yeah. And that's the race we're running towards the cliff. It's really scary. It's really scary. But isn't that probably what we're here for?

29:19Like let's, let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered. Well, if you wanted to see the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us, how would you manifest that? You would do it exactly how it's being done right now. And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turn them into dogs. Yep. And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated from the time of the Manhattan project, look at what's happening to testosterone levels. Look at what's happening to mit with microplastics, the endocrine disruptors were essentially weakening.

30:06The human skeletal system and endocrine system are hormonols are all down. Miscages are up. Birth rates are lower. We're moving towards in vitro fertilization. I was watching some guy on TV today and he was on a panel and he was explaining that our grandchildren are going to laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's going to be doing that. Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues. And why would you do that? Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization and like, yeah, it's going to be like that, that Pixar movie, Wally or like, like we're going to be like in the fetal position hooked up to the board or whatever.

30:51Probably all going to look like the grace, like the gray. Well, that's a crazy. So there's actually a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University. His name is Mike Masters. And I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future. And I agree. You've interviewed Dr. Shana Swan. She talks about how sperm count is 59 % per capita of what it was in 1973. Insane testosterone's fallen off a cliff. Right. We are being a dog is to a wolf. What we are to what a gray alien looks like. They're were losing. They lose the melanin in their skin. That's what happens when you become domesticated.

31:28So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all of the abductions. Like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill. And it'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time. And in many cases, abducities have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a foreign pathogen. You know, tissue samples, but you know, genetic samples or... Is it the future or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage, not us in the future, but they are more advanced.

32:08Like maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near -earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12 ,000 years or whatever the fuck happens here. That's possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A, B test because if you think about just the atmospheric conditions on earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being, you know, that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low. But is it? Because what if that's what all solar systems are? You know, Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy. Love him.

32:44Love him. Fascinating thinker. You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about and Eric was like, you got to stop teaching. Like you're one of us, you're a brilliant guy, but you need to be like classically educated on this stuff, really understand what you're talking about. But he had this really fascinating idea about planets. And he thinks that planets as they get a specific distance from the Sun then they're capable of supporting life and that all of them get to the same stage and then a planet is essentially peopleing. And then as the planets move further and further from the Sun, they have to adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere, in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment whether or not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore.

33:38And he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the Sun. And as they move further and further from the Sun, they become habitable and then less habitable and then uninhabitable. And we're kind of finding that out about Mars. Which is, Mars is a weird one. Because there's the remote viewers that went like a billion years in the past of Mars and saw advanced civilizations. And now we're finding structures on Mars, like that square that they found on Mars. Which is hundreds of meters across at the very least, maybe larger, verified, right angles, four of them, impossible to exist in nature in that form.

34:22It looks like walls. Yeah. It looks like four square walls. Like the Sidonia thing is really weird. The face on Mars is weird, but maybe just kind of weird that sometimes side of a mountain looks like someone's face, but it's not really someone's face. It's just once in a lifetime sort of. But the square, that fucking, pull that image up of that square on Mars. The square is fucking bananas. Like what's that? It's so nuts. That really looks like a fucking building. Yeah, it looks like a building. Like the base of a building, a million years later or whatever the hell it is. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money.

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36:27And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid -90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH84001, which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had like little bacterial fossils on it. He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars, you know, due to this, this is pretty crazy. I interviewed actually a guy named John Brandenburg, who's a PhD's worked at Sandia National Labs, he's worked at Lawrence Livermore, like an incredibly smart guy. He talks about the existence of xenon 129 and argon 40, the specific nuclear isotopes, existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a normal sort of cataclysm.

37:14And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars. And then yeah, you have Joseph McMonigal, whose remote viewer number one, you've had Hal Putoff on, who ran the Stargate program. Joseph McMonigal is the number one remote viewer in that program. I've interviewed him. I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars one million years ago. And he claimed to have remote viewed hominid like creatures, but there were like 12 to 14 feet tall, walking around pure middle structures. I don't know, very strange. And then you get into like, crazy or territory, you know, Richard Houghlin had all these pictures of structures on Mars.

37:51And like, I don't know how much weight to put in that. Houghlin did a lot of weird leaps though. I watched tons. Yeah. Tons. But I think the people that say like 0 % there was life on Mars, they're crazy. I mean, they're water caverns all over Mars. They're well, that is a fact. Yeah. So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point. You know, I'm not saying, you have to think probably listically, right? So it's like some percentage possibly on the Terrence Howard stuff. I see zero evidence for that. I mean, I have no idea. But that would point to maybe, I would believe that if our whole universe is sort of information, theoretic.

38:29So you have John Wheeler, famous physicist from Princeton. We live in the sort of observer dependent universe. He talks about the anthropic principle, where it's Planck's constant, where it's slightly different. The earth's atmosphere wouldn't exist as is. Another example is hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures, where the solid form of it, so ice, is less dense than the liquid form of it, which never happens. That's just because of these perfect crystal structures. If that weren't the case, the earth would flood like a million times over. The earth is mostly water, right?

39:05So you have all these sort of like gold elocks, you know, elements of the earth. That could point towards the earth has been tried in a bajillion iterations. And we just got really lucky. You know, it's like the Elon thing. We are the little flaming candle. And this vast cosmos that is conscious, and we are extremely lucky, or that could point to the earth being simulated. Right. And so then maybe Terence Howard is right. If the earth is simulated, there are probably AB tests going on, just like in computer science. And then there's the moon. And then the moon's weird, too. The moon's really weird.

39:41The moon's super weird. The size of the moon directly corresponding, like when it's in orbit with the sun, completely blocks out the sun perfectly. It's 1 ,400th the size of the sun, and it's 400 times closer to the earth than the sun. You never see the dark side, which is very weird. It's actually, I believe it's closer to the earth than what you would normally expect for a moon. It's huge. It's huge. You have cultures actually talking about a pre -moon period. And it's stabilized in the climate. You have the, you know, Zulu cultures talking about this. And then it's the weirdest stuff about the moon.

40:19Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, we think it might be hollow. And it's, you know, the, it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense, or sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site. That's obviously in, you know, in earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right? And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon. They put seismometers there and they said that it rang like a bell. These, this is all the fact you could look all this stuff. It's super weird.

40:58It is really weird. You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randal Carlson. Loverandal Carlson. He's got some wild fucking theories too. But that, the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere is so crazy. It is crazy. And then this is, you obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down. Lowest probability craziest thing is Engos Juan, who is another remote viewer in the Stargate program. He wrote a book called Penetration, where he's basically like abducted by this guy in a suit, like it's kind of men in black style guy named Axelrod.

41:39And he is told to remote view the moon. And he remote views an alien base on the moon. And he says that there, and he gets it. The whole thing goes, I mean, the book isn't sane. It's like he then ends up in a supermarket. And he says that he senses that this woman, that the, you know, the produce aisle is like an alien or something. But a lot of people from that Stargate program remote viewed structures on the dark side of the moon. And that sort of thing. So, well, AJ from the Y files was on. And he was, he was the one that was telling us that there's photos, right, of the dark side of the moon, that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly, that there were structures that, that will have this is going to be the biggest the news ever.

42:22And then it was never released. Are you talking about maybe Carl Wolf? Was that what it was? He was taken to, this is all his claims. And he died in a freakish bike accident a little after saying this. But he said that there was like in, in like Langley, you know, Virginia where a lot of spooky stuff goes on. He was taken to some like, it was like inside a mountain complex, which we definitely, yes, Carl Wolf, yeah. That guy bikes. Apparently not enough. That guy could die anytime. Oh man. Scooter. So, photographs of 1966, Lou Bernard Orbiter, a mission that revealed large base of the moon. Can we hear what he's saying?

43:02Just hear a little bit of it. Scan one section of the moon, then another, and another, and then they would get a larger image. So this mosaic then would be put in that contact printer, and that was then a print that was issued to whomever, the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go. So he was showing me how all this worked. And we walked over to one side of the lab, and he said, by the way, we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon. And I said, I said, who's? What do you mean who's? He said, yes, there's, we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon.

43:40And at that point, I became frightened, and it was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy. We're in trouble because he shouldn't be giving me this information. I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over. And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and showed this base, which had geometric shapes. There were towers. There were spherical buildings. There were very tall towers, and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures. So I didn't say anymore to him, because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment.

44:27Would catch us having this conversation, and we would be in real trouble. I realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to. Now, probably in that laboratory, he was probably one of the few enlisted people, and he was a worker bee. And he had a high -level security clearance, obviously, but he couldn't share that information with anybody else. And in those days, we didn't. When you had your security clearance, you took it seriously. It isn't like today where people don't take these things seriously. We had a different set of morals and ethics and values.

45:02That's the way we were raised, and we stayed bound by those agreements. So it was rare that someone would do something like this, but this fellow and I were the same rank. I think he was very distressed. He had the same paler and demeanor as the scientist outside the room. They were just as concerned as he was. And he needed to discuss it with somebody. So that was the end of it right there. I didn't take it any further than that. I just filed it away. But the interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about this on the news. And so I turned on the TV and I look at the news to see if they're going to announce.

45:47We've discovered a base on the fact that I'm excited about the mood. Being really naive. And of course, here it is 30 some years later, and we still haven't heard about it. Pretty crazy. Yeah, but then there's the question of disinformation. You could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense and tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak. And it won't be verified. And it's going to make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people less likely or reluctant to study it. Totally. And in his case, he says that he was in this mountain base or whatever, where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN style space program or whatever.

46:39So that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale. And I'm glad you made that point because that is UFOogy 101. And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure. And I think that is the reasonable response. It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts. It's just we're going to give you a little bit, but we're also going to sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit. We're going to stigmatize it. And it kind of works because it like, it creates this initiation path for recruiting. If there are any of these programs, it widens the surface area. It both conditions the populace, but also stigmatizes the thing.

47:18It makes it seem like kind of a joke. And so I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like interpretation and you were just taking it, accepting it, you know, and by being it wholeheartedly like, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, Premafacia, I think you are in trouble. Yeah. But that's so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject. Yeah. I mean, that's like the majority of your videos is like, I don't know. I don't know what to think. I don't, I don't know who's full of shit. I don't know how much, I mean, I was, I was watching the towns in brown one today.

47:51Um, and you were talking about John Lear and John Lear's connection to Bob Azar and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation. Yep. Yeah. So like, yeah, that's a, I've by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar, just in so far as I think he was at S4 Area 51. And there's going to be a great documentary coming up by my buddy, Luigi, on this called Project Gravitar. And I think there's going to be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there in a lot in his story checks. But I think you have to, and I even say that in this video that I think a lot of the story could be true.

48:34You can't, I think, view the Bob Azar story. You can't just take it at face value because John Lear and he were friends. John Lear is this babbling UFO nut. He's obsessed with you. He's writing weird like disinfo -y style stuff with Bill Cooper, behold the pale horse guy. Which is a wild book. Which is a wild book. A wild book. And so he's crazy. Bill, he talks about, doesn't he talk about bases on the moon? He talks about bases on the moon. Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon. Oh boy. And so Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird jits.

49:08Lear comes from an interesting family. His father is Bill Lear, who is the autopilot wizard. He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet, the Lear jet in the 50s and 60s and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Towns and Brown. And so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit. Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur? I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot. In fact, there is a video of him saying I was told, I was given all the Bob Lazar files or whatever. And I was told about, you know, to actually like, he said, a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth.

49:54I even have this video actually on the dock that I sent you, Jamie. He says, knew that I ran my mouth. So that's why we basically we got Bob a job or whatever. We knew that part of this stuff was leak. And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever. And he was this useful idiot to sort of get it out. And I think they're what for what purpose recruiting you give people high level. Yeah, absolutely. And the MJ personnel, the original 12 have all passed away. So they put the different people into these positions of MJ, two, three, four, five, six, and taken over.

50:41It's degraded. So it's almost political now instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ 12. It turns out that MJ won, the head of MJ 12, his guy named Admiral Mike McClellan. He wanted to get some of the information out because he didn't want to, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public. We don't need to keep all this secrecy. So he decided trying to figure out a way to get it to the public. So he knew that I was a blabbermouth and I would tell anything I knew. They investigated Bombsar and they knew that he was a genius. But that he had a background such that they could instantly discredit him.

51:27They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything. He'd go back to Caltech, I don't know, he's needing records here. Well, I was here, I don't know he weren't. And he also up in Reno at one time, he ran a cat house there. And I forget what the name of the Honey's Second Ranch it was. So they chose him because not only could he probably help them because he was so smart. And as Max drew, he's the one that named an unpenny on 115. He's the one that told him what that was and they didn't know when he went there. They didn't know what it was. He was the one that told him.

52:08That's element 115 and then told him why and how he figured it out. But they decided to pick on Bob to go up the work at S4 because he knew that Bob would tell me instantly and that I would blab the whole thing. And that was their, what a separate rendite was to get the information out, engage what it did to the public, how they accepted it. And then pull back and say, oh, no, it was on the stake. Bob was already a fraud, he never worked here. He doesn't have any contractions like that. And they could back away and get out of it. So that was what Mike McClellan, that's what Mike McClellan came up with.

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55:39He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy where they knew that they could delete the records at MIT. They knew that they could stigmatize them because of the brothel. They knew that they were, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and we'd had were teller serendipitously. They knew that they could they had plausible deniability on all that stuff. There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Groves played by Matt Damon says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his communist sympathies.

56:13I hired him because of them. So you have a top secret program. You want compromise on people. You want to be able to blackmail them. And so I think, you know, that should be taken at face value, in my opinion. And the reason that the story itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob was our were friends before Bob was our got a job at area at area 51 S4. And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check. And and and Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right? And then the CIA is all over the UFO program, right?

56:52And he was flying CIA cargo jets and he says that he disaffiliated in 83. That's bullshit. George and app and and Jared Corbell have talked about that's how that's BS. And actually disaffiliated much later into the mid 80s or whatever. Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets? And then the guards at area 51 knew John Lee John Lee and Jim Goodall his buddy who's a photographer had been camping out at area 51 for the better part of a decade. Like the security guards there knew him. Jeremy Corbell has talked about an interview. Like I would go with John Lear and and he would show me around or whatever and they would like let him through and before leaking the Bob was our story to George Napp, he leaked a story about the F 117, which is the first stealth craft in the US.

57:40And so I think that helped establish sort of, you know, credibility or legitimacy. Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur? I don't know. There's a photo of John Lear with G Gordon Litty who's like as deep and spooky as again. I met him. No way. He was on Fear Factor. No way. Yeah. G Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor. Yeah. Are you serious? Yeah. You're not messing with me. No, no. G Gordon Litty was on Fear Factor. Yeah. What? Yeah. He probably would have won. But there was a driving thing at the end and he couldn't drive well without glasses. And you weren't allowed to wear glasses. Yeah. Look at that.

58:12G Gordon Litty. And John Lear. That is the most gonzo thing I've ever, do you, do you, G Gordon Litty was on how does he, do you have like a quota of like, the celebrity, your factor celebrity, fear factor. Yeah. Yeah. That's wild. Man. He's a fascinating guy like he was intense. I can only meeting him. I was like, okay. What was he like? Fucking intense. There was one of the things where you had to be hung by your ankles and like there he is. Oh my God. Yeah. G Gordon Litty on Fear Factor. Yeah. He looks nuts. Oh yeah. He was nuts. And he was very old at the time. But I think that's what fucked him up.

58:46But in the final stunt, he couldn't see well without his glasses. And so this is the thing they had to like, I figure what they had to do. They had to, oh, they were dunked into the water over and over again. And then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that. Oh my God. Yeah. Wild. Wild. Did you sneak any questions in? No. I didn't. You know, I didn't have much time to talk to him unfortunately. He said you could just help talking to him. Yeah. One intense motherfucker, even as an old man. Did you get sociopathic vibes? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Just like he'll do whatever the fuck it takes to get the job done.

59:26Yeah. You can fold off a water gate. Yeah. Look at him there. Oh my God. Crazy. Crazy. Yeah. That is unbelievable. What an art of what an amazing, that's just sure. But I mean, you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life. Yeah. That's crazy. That's a weird one. That was a weird one. Because everybody was, you know, they weren't the people that were on the show were nearly as fascinating as I was. I was like, you know, fucking wild that dude is. Yeah. I mean, that guy is deep. He's deep in there. Deep. Yeah. Deep. Oh my God.

1:00:04Yeah. Wild. To Gonzo moment. Yeah. For sure. Like very strange. Like why would you do this? It was, I don't even understand why you did it. It's proof we live in a simulation. Yeah. Maybe. It was very strange. Like what would be his objective? Like I feel people like that love fucking around. They've loved getting a rise out of people and they love, you know, if he is a sociopath, he loves, you know, going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention as you can get, I don't I can't psychoanalyze. She court. I'd famously put cigarettes out on himself, hold his hand into flames. I didn't know that.

1:00:42Yeah. Just to show that you could control his response to pain. And he felt like that when you're around them. You know, like, like so that thing that they had to do where they got dunked and they, you know, they're hanging by their ankles and dunked into water. So it disore into why you trying to do this task. He did it better than anybody. Wow. And they just can never 100 and 50 years old. Where the fuck you was? Yeah. I felt like we're going to kill him. He's like really old. He's doing this intense physical thing to him. Yeah, but at the end, you just couldn't see at night. You know, it was like when you get old, you're night time visions real bad.

1:01:21Poor G Gordon. Yeah. But so how did Lazard know what element 115 was? I don't know. You know, so element 115, elements are just differentiated by the number of protons. So it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered. If they have, I don't, I think they don't have a stable version of muskovium, which is element 115. And so if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated based on that. Well, you know, they think he has a stable version. I know that. Yeah. Yeah. They think that was part of during Jeremy Corbyl's documentary that he was doing on the ZAR.

1:02:02He was rated by the he thinks that's what they were looking for. That is wild. Yeah. I think there is so much real about the Lazard story. I think he was at S4. I think he met Edward Teller. I think he was at Los Alamos. I think he was at MIT. I know he tell, there's some stuff he told you offline. MIT's engaged in a lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk about what you were doing. There's a lot of federally funded, weird stuff going on. Yeah. If you want to teach your people how to do something that's kind of fucked up, what you would send them to MIT. 100%. EG &G came from Doc Edgerton, who was MIT faculty.

1:02:41And that's where he ended up working after meeting Edward Teller, was EG &G. So I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true. I'm just that lens. You need to apply that lens. The limited hangout lens. Well, it's also like what is he dealing with really? Like what is the craft? Is that thing ours? Did we have something in 1988 that was that sophisticated or is that really back engineered? That's the what is it a mine fuck? That's a trillion dollar question. Is this tech protect? This is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene. And you had when did stealth technology first get implemented?

1:03:22It was the F1117 was the first stealth craft. That was the early 80s. And you had actually this guy named Piotr Ufimsev, who is this. Yeah, very a great name. Early 20th century Russian mathematician Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunkworks had to recestate. There's this kind of fight between not fight, but disagreement between Ben Rich, who is the incoming Skunkworks director. Skunkworks is the most advanced R &D division of Lockheed Martin. And Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunkworks. And so Ben Rich was very pro stealth. He thought that this was this really important modality.

1:04:02And he and a couple of his engineers recestated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross sections on planes. And that's where the F1117 came. And the B2 was sort of the response to that. And it sort of took off in the 80s. And he was extremely scared about tech protection at the time. He was hyper vigilant. And he would actively complain about it. And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time. Pretty crazy. So that's the backdrop. And there's also in 1986, there's a budget line item and the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora. And this is the super stealthy craft that's post F117.

1:04:50And that's the only rumored. Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real. And the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR -71 or the space shuttle. And so there was something being flown around at that time that causing the sonic booms that was unaccounted for. And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, I saw the Aurora. It was around at the time. And it sort of just took off or whatever. Which is, I think, a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff.

1:05:23Because why are you exposing some probably classified tech? I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real. There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, or sorry, it might have been the Black Sea that sketched it out and Bill Sweatman, this James Defense Weekly Aviation Journalist, you know, picked that story up. What did he just grab at us? It was a triangle similar to the B2, but I think more narrow. And it just flew incredibly fast. Like faster than the F117. Yeah, I don't know. It was just super advanced. Can you envision, would it be actually possible in 1988 to, could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology that's not back engineered, that's not not from another world that is what Lazar described?

1:06:22It's funny. You should ask that. Yes, ideas. Yes. And that's not to say I don't want to, again, pour cold water on the like UFO crash retrieval stuff, because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there. But is there a tech tree that involves anti -gravity? Absolutely in the US. And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Towns and Brown. So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us. They'd be like, you're crazy. If we were to talk amongst any aerospace gray beard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile.

1:07:00And they'd say, okay, maybe there's something there. And so the nominal history is that we have never been able, we don't have exotic propulsion principles. Everything is chemical combustion, essentially. You had Elon Musk on and he says, it's all Newton three laws. You can't get anything better. And I remember you asked him, you're like, well, maybe if you could get something better, he's like, it's impossible. We have not unified the field in physics. So you have the weak force, the strong force, and electromagnetism. And all of those have been reconciled. Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island.

1:07:37So you have the standard model quantum field theory. And you have Einstein's theory of gravity. And the two are not reconcilable. It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think any even reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say, if you could reconcile them, that's possible. I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally. Not theoretically. I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally. And so there's this whole hidden history involving anti -gravity. And I get into this in my show with How Put Off in Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified.

1:08:20It's real. David Grush actually cites it a lot. And it talks about basically it's this guy Harry Turner who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia. Very legit guys like their Oppenheimer if you will. And they were actually they had a Umera test range in southern Australia. So there were some actually British Empire like nuclear stuff going on. It was mostly like I think missile testing. But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with. And so he looked into US efforts into UFO research, but also specifically anti -gravity. And he talks about how after a little bit of investigation, US efforts into anti -gravity are far deeper than meet the eye.

1:09:08In Blue Book, this front facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force is total BS. And it's meant to stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail. And it's actually this now declassified document around the Robert the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel that kind of created the Constitution for Blue Book. All shows that this was the case with Blue Book. He says actually there were secret anti -gravity programs going on at the time. And they involved and he lists names. Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller. He lists all these names. The head of the nuclear program in Australia.

1:09:48And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this official government document saying this stuff. Does this line up with any artifacts at the time? Well actually in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist journal by a guy named Michael Gladich. And he is quoting all of the industry experts. You know, he's Bill Lear is quoted who we talked about. Who else is quoted? George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIS, their anti -gravity research program. He says anti -gravity research is, you know, we're going to figure this out and just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb.

1:10:31Like it's right around the bend sort of thing. You had the patron of Bell aircraft. They had just broken the sound barrier with the X -1 1947. So there you go, Michael Gladich. The G engines are coming. Whoa. Wow. By far the most potent source of energy is gravity. Using it as power, future aircraft will attain the speed of light. Holy shit. And Bell says like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity. Richard Arnoet and Stanley Deser. They have a diagram of how it would work. It's wow. Protective boundary layer. Yep. Cabin electronic rockets, gravity generator. They talk about gravity particles, Stanley Deser and Richard Arnoet at Princeton are studying.

1:11:20So what do you think was going on? I think they were deeply investigating anti -gravity. I mean, they're, they're, they do think they had a working model? I think they had an effect called the biofilm Brown effect that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level and you could do it in a vacuum, which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for threat. So I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is. Yeah. So it's, you take a capacitor, right? And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode. It's an asymmetric capacitor. So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor and the two are in between the two is an insulator called the high K dielectric.

1:12:06So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity and Brown used to DC direct current pulses and you see thrust going from the negative to the positive. And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right?

1:12:47So that's air to create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust. Then you are breaking physics as we know it. There are other things that break physics as we know it. You had sunny white on. He talked about like the the chasmere effect, you know, which is a real effect that involves not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract. There's the air and off bone effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic for potential. There are other effects in physics where you don't you can't quite explain it in the current model but they are harbingers if you will of the next paradigm.

1:13:26I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is pointing towards the next scientific paradigm. Black body radiation is a great example is discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchoff. We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck where he actually discovered quanta. The orbit of mercury is another good example where we didn't understand, you know, we couldn't calculate mercury's orbit until we had spacetime curvature in Einstein. So Newton didn't quite explain it. So my belief is the bifield brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly, visually, unify the field or it's pointing towards something else, gravitational shielding or it's pointing towards how it put off stuff around, you know, quantum vacuum fluctuations.

1:14:13I don't know. I don't have a great theory for how it works. I don't think brown had an amazing theory for how it works but it's an effect that I think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion that leads us to today. It's an effect that's not supposed to happen. And this, what is this, Jamie? This episode is brought to you by visible. I want to let you in on something. Your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about visible because visible is the ultimate wireless hack. No confusing plans with surprise fees, no nonsense, just fast speeds, great coverage without the premium cost.

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1:15:38It's in a league of its own. If the trailer is anything to go by, this new film does not hold back. Liam Neeson is Frank Treben, Jr. son of the celebrated police squad lieutenant from the original films. Let's just say you've never seen Neeson like this, nor Pamela Anderson, or Paul Walter Hauser. A must watch on the big screen The Naked Gun only in theaters August 1st. That is a thruster in a vacuum. Yeah, that's a that's a lateral propeller version of it. And you don't have to listen to me, by the way, the lead electrostatic guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Bueller. He's been doing this for 20 years and he's at acts.

1:16:19He's at Kennedy Space Center. He is the lead. They use electrostatics to like clean dust off the lunar land or whatever because those particles are actually charged. And super he's the most senior guy in electrostatics. And he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force. And he attributes his work to towns and brown. I could show you in an interview. He literally says towns and brown was like the first guy to discover this. He's updated a bit. He says that it's not just sheer voltage. You don't need to use mega voltage and actually electric field strength is the most important thing. So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust.

1:16:58But he has a whole company around this called Exodus Space. So like you don't have to listen another very credentialed person if we're on that. A guy named Carl Nell who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made into the B2 stealth bomber. I don't think it's the anti -gravity part. It's a part called electro hydrodynamics that made into the B2 stealth bomber. But the point is I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman. And he also was the Army representative of the UAP task force along with David Grush where they were investigating UFOs. And he says I was in a room filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs.

1:17:37I was like Carl. These people want actionable stuff. Can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff or is it all like kind of metaphysical and not even wrong as Feynman would say? And he goes, well if you want some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown. And so I've gotten this time in time again where I've had all these private experiences with Brown where I'm like is anybody seeing this? Like this is crazy. And it's, you know, I don't know. Let's take this back to when was Brown conducting these experiments initially? Yeah. What year was this? The early 20s.

1:18:19So like 1923, 24 range. Whoa. He was a child prodigy. So they're a newspaper climate. He was from Zainsville, Ohio. He was born in 1905. And 1915, he was, you know, caught in the garden or whatever, using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil. Then at age 12, he, the World War government under Wichiro Wilson, most probably the local government told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created and antenna that he had created. Like this walkie talkie system that he had developed at the time. And there there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that like totally corroborate this.

1:18:57He then goes to Caltech. He studies under a guy named Robert Milliken, who's actually a really well respected physicist who was helped to develop Einstein's photoelectric effect or actually, you know, demonstrated experimentally. Milliken doesn't really give him the time of day on the byfield Brown effect. And the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using Coolidge X -ray tubes. So these are really early X -ray tubes. And they have every X -ray tube has or every Coolidge tube has a cathode and an anode. So a negative and a positive electrode. And he would pump it full of, you know, high voltage electricity.

1:19:35And the wire would jump. And then he would he would actually he would put in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping. And then he would suspend it from, you know, the ceiling and it would keep jumping. And he was like, what's going on? Like this isn't supposed to happen. And there are ways to, again, explain that away via traditional electrostatics. So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it. But after Caltech, he then goes to Denison University where he studies under a guy named Paul Alfred byfield. And Denison University for the longest time has denied that relationship.

1:20:06And now they're admitting it, which is I find really fine. Then the archive is there's now admitting it. There is an affidavit from the Navy or Paul Alfred byfield signs a letter saying I witness this effect. It's an anomalous effect. From there, he goes on and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius, who's at the right Patterson, right airfield at the time, flight test division. He's working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the, you know, crazy flight tests in 1952. He says, believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer and I was frightened. And I'm frightened for it getting out because and I'm paraphrasing a little bit because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development.

1:20:45And that's 1952. He then shows a fan precipitate or experiment, which really shows the electro hydrodynamic effect, which is similar, but not the same as the the electromagnetic and gravity thing to Edward Teller, the father of the H bomb. And Edward Teller himself says, I don't know how this works. And then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter. And I have this by the way on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter who's saying this all happened. It turns to her and she says, I've never heard him say that because he's such a genius. I mean, he was a Hungarian brilliant, you know, father of the H bomb.

1:21:24And so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses. Brown was an associate of Bill Lear. You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab and the Bansson lab in North Carolina together. In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957, which is basically creates quantum gravity of which the off -shoot is string theory. And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show. And it's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill. They are funding Brown's work in the back room. And there's video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Bansson.

1:22:02And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti -gravity research. University of North Carolina is one of those outposts. It's crazy. And says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all this stuff. The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray. He's a super spooky guy who he revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance. And he's also implicated in these sort of MJ -12 documents, which I don't necessarily want to motion with Brown. It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material like limited hangout lens.

1:22:41But Gordon Gray is this very interesting character. The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill conference. And this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world. Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people. At the same time, they were funding in the back room, this kind of Zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers. And there's video of him popping champagne, where it's like, why are you popping champagne?

1:23:14Probably because you got a successful experiment. That was the second time he had tested this in a vacuum. So again, it's reduced, it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect. Before that, a year before that, in Paris, at the Monc -Golfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum. And this guy named Jacques Corneone was this. He died in 2009, but Townsend Brown's biographer has him on record in a phone call that is recorded, saying the tests were very tricky, but in the end, we got it to work. And he's on his deathbed. And he's saying all this. And you have a 120 page, a 125 page report for the Monc -Golfier project.

1:23:53And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter, Linda, by a guy named Robert Sarbacher, who runs ramp, I mean, there's so many Sarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs. He says that UFOs are classified two points higher than the H -bomb. He's talking to this guy, Wilbur Smith, who's this magnetic sex expert in Canada about their experimentation with UFOs. And so he's the guy that picks up, and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time. And he's the guy who picks up Brown, where it's like, okay, we've got to take this seriously because you got it to work in a vacuum.

1:24:28The idea that they've kept all this secret for all these years seems impossible. I don't think it is. To me, yeah, sure. I mean, I'm sure it's not. But you know what I mean? But from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects, that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades. Yeah. It seems crazy to me, but he had something, Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called, it was basically the electro hydrodynamic effect, which is not the electro -gravitic effect. So these are two very different things.

1:25:08One is coupling again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow, creating some gravity shielding or whatever. You can do this in a vacuum. And then the other thing is what you could see on YouTube videos, which is associated with towns and brown, where you have basically these balsa wood structures. You have tin foil at the bottom and you have a copper wire at the top. The copper wire is the positive electrode. The tin foil is the negative electrode. The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating thrust because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind, which is creating thrust in a certain direction.

1:25:44So that is an experiment that is 95 % similar to the electro -gravitic thing. It wears the mantle of being electro -gravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that you can just describe using normal physics and Newton's laws. Well, what about material science? What about the actual structure itself? Because this is where it gets really weird, right? These nano layers of whatever the material is that's being used. What was the bismuth? So this is what's crazy. So magnesium bismuth shows up a lot. It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winter Haven proposal in 1954 where he's describing these electro -gravitic effects because it's a high K -dielectric.

1:26:32It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge. But it also shows up, there's actually an interview with Lewis Witten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theory that Eric Wein says is the Michael Jordan of physics on your show. And he at Lewis Witten says there's a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting. Who's named Townsend at that time? It's clearly he's talking about Townsend Brown. If you actually look at Gary Nolan samples that he's, Gary Nolan is, PhD at Stanford as a tenured professor and he is spun out multiple nine figure companies and biotechnology.

1:27:12He really smart, he runs the Soul Foundation, they're studying sort of, non -human intelligence. He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallet, who you've had on as the French godfather of uapology, who his address is posted online. If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques. Jacques sends a lot of his materials to Gary. One of the materials is magnesium bismuth. And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think. And magnesium bismuth is a high K dialectric and it's over and over again, it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Brown.

1:27:52So you have this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti -gravity experiments is also showing up in UFO lore. Do you export the possibility that the Roswell crash was not from another world? That's where it gets weird, man, because that was early. That was July of 1947. Right, so the bismuth thing, when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered, that's where it gets really weird, right? That's where it's thinner than, it's like micron layered, like thinner than human hairs, I think the hell put off quote on this. And I don't know the actually came from the Roswell crash.

1:28:36If it didn't come from the Roswell crash, let's imagine is it possible to make that stuff today with those layers? How put off would say no, and it's probably beyond my material science knowledge, but yeah, I don't know. People who are very smart on this subject like Hal and Gary who I speak to, a decent frequency say no. Okay, so if they say no, maybe they're wrong, maybe there is a lab somewhere that can recreate it, but could they recreate it at scale? Like could they 3D print that to something that could actually get people inside and fly around? And then could that have been done in 1947?

1:29:16That's where it gets super fucking weird. It gets super weird. Because you know, there's some leaps, right? Okay, we had the H bomb, we had atomic energy, we had a lot of stuff back then, they split the atom. There's some really incredible advances. I don't believe we had anti -gravity. If I track Brown's stuff at the time, which I think he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff, he was using these capacitor models and trying to get that experimentally proven, and sometimes being thwarted via mainstream academic circles at that time. The Chapel Hill conference was much later, and that's where he's like kind of officially proving this stuff in the US government context in 1950.

1:29:57So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an anti -early anti -gravity. Kelly Goddard, who is a father of American rocketry, was doing rocket testing at around Roswell at the time. That's like total chemical combustion. You had V2s at the time where that was top of the line. It opens up the door to the possibility of back engineering. Absolutely. Which is where it gets really weird. So now we're not dealing with hidden science. We're not dealing with top secret, compartmentalized, like need to know everything's pushed away into skunk works and wherever the fuck it's done.

1:30:34You're talking about something that's not from here. Well, it's interesting you say back engineering. In 1949, there is a contract that anybody can look up. I put it on the doc Jamie between Wright Patterson and it was a Wright airfield at the time and Batel Memorial Institute. And you have James Eyes laid up. And you got shout out Columbus, Elias, all roads lead to Ohio. Right. And you have all these titanium alloys. And one of them is called Knittinol, which is a nickel titanium alloy. So this is 49. This is 1949. And so if you have Army Intelligence Officer Jesse Marcel says that he picks up the crash material and he says that it was like this shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of mess with it and it would go back into its original form.

1:31:26It was like this tinfoil -y -like thing. And so Knittinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s. That was when it was actually fully published. But you have this contract between Wright Airfield and Batel Memorial Institute where you have Knittinol in as one of the metal metals that they're testing. Not only that. 49. In 2012, they foyer. They use the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy J. John Center. EJ Center was one of the co -authors of that paper. Elroy John Center died I think in 1991. Before that, he had told two Mufon UFO researchers, Nick Nicherson and Irene Scott.

1:32:10And they presented this at Mufon in Ohio in 1992. They said this guy was this metal -urgis. He worked at Batel. Again, he's been foyer as part of this paper. And he says I worked on alien material and that there were weird hieroglyphics on it. And that I had to like, you know, I was a chemist. And so he had to look at metal impurities. But he was also meant to decipher the hieroglyphics on it or whatever. And so I don't know. Was Knittinol maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered? Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash wreckage ended up at Wright Airfield. Or was it this one -to -one thing?

1:32:52And EJ Center is at the center of it, no pun intended, where he's foyed in 2012. And he says he has these UFO material. And he's on record working at Batel. You can look that up. Well, not only is there record that the Roswell crash was brought to right, but that was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed and that Truman met them there. Yep. I don't know if that's true. I need to know. I want to see a photo of the fucking hieroglyphs. Could you imagine the glimpse at alien writing? Do you think that would be amazing? Do you think you have a better chance now than ever at being it? Because you interviewed Trump.

1:33:35Would Trump let you be the disclosure guy? And I could be the water boy on the side making sure that the pH is right. Oh, dude, that's possible. I don't think they tell Trump shit. I think they would withhold that from him. Why would you tell that guy? Well, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned. He's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ice stuff. There's a lot of stuff that I think is allowed to go on. But I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, black budget stuff that has been kept under wraps for fucking decades, you think they're going to tell the guy who is the host of the apprentice?

1:34:21I don't think they tell him. Because I think he's only in there for four years. Probably not with two caveats. One is his son, Don, Jr. interviewed him and said, what do you think happened at Roswell? And he said, well, I think there's something very interesting that might have happened. That's all he ever says. And he saved on your show, too. He doesn't spill the beans at all. But I mean, maybe he doesn't spill the beans because he doesn't know where the beans are. Right. Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking guy. I mean, is that really his primary concern? He's a 78 year old man who doesn't do drugs.

1:34:53He said no psychedelic experiences. Maybe he's not even interested in this concept. I think about that sometimes with people on the hill that I speak to where I'm like, can you just like, I'm giving you all this info. Can you tell us about the box? Figure it out. And they don't compute it. There's a person who, like you're the archetype of this who's like so fascinated by it. And then there is a person who goes, but I got to pay taxes, dude. Yeah, they have to be reelected. There's this episode is brought to you by Tacovas. You can't have a good time in bad boots. That's why you need Tacovas. Tacovas crafts quality western boots for everyone from generational ranchers and lifelong cowboys to first -time boot buyers.

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1:37:48If you don't, you're not going to want to release all this stuff. And I don't think Trump is infected. I mean, I think his, even the way he describes these things is very different than the way he describes other things. Like, he famously was talking to Steve Hilton. And it was one of the few times in history that a sitting president has mentioned the military industrial complex wanting to go to war. These guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview, and I remember thinking, wow, that is wild. To hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors.

1:38:35And there's insane amounts of money involved. And these guys want to go to war. And he was saying that in that interview. And I'm like, this is, I mean, this is what Eisenhower said when he was leaving office. Straight up. Yeah, straight up. There's a straight line between then and now. And it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in it. It's like, you got the Civil War, 1861. Now we have like a deep state war going on where it's like Tulsi's going in there as an outsider and this like a light warrior. And she's being like a red team didn't attack. And she doesn't know who's on her side.

1:39:09Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it's, it's pretty wild. It's pretty wild how nothing gets done. And you know, and it's set up so nothing gets done. But my point is that Trump, his response to that is an informed response. Like there's, there's this military industrial complex. These people want to go to war. He doesn't talk about this UAP thing that way. Right. I've seen some things crazy things. What is that? What are you saying? Like what you be specific? I hand some pilots. They, you know, crew cuts like you. They look good. Guys, nice guys. Good Americans. Like what, what, what, what do you know? Didn't he say something on your podcast about men from Mars or something?

1:39:48He goes, the people from Mars or something. I don't, it's hard with him because he speaks in this sing songy oversimplified way. Any rants. Any rants. And he, well, he's got a strong rant muscle, right? Because he does these stadium tours where he goes to these enormous places and he basically just works without a script. So it's like he's got a rant muscle. There's a few people like Tim Dillum is the best comedian who has a rant muscle. He just can rant. He just like get a microphone in front of him and a subject and he knows what to say. The Trump has that muscle. He's developed that muscle over all these years of campaigning.

1:40:22And so it's really hard to interview him because he just essentially turns on that rant muscle when the mic's on. And you got to like interject like hold on. Okay. But what are you saying? Like what do you know? Like what do you know? Like will you release this information? Like what if you found out that for sure we have been visited and that we are in possession of crashed UFOs that were not made by China, they were not made by Russia, they're not made by America. They're from another civilization that we don't understand. Would you tell us? What do you think you would say? There's a lot of information.

1:41:01I don't know if I can release it. I don't know if they let me. You know like I don't know what holds it back. I want to know if he's in it. Like did you see age of disclosure? I didn't actually. You should. It's really good. I don't know how you would see it right now because it's not released yet. I don't know what they're doing as far as getting it released. But did you come out believing more and more skeptical? What was your both both with like with all of it? I think some some is bullshit. Some of his misinformation. Some of it is they're releasing this slow trickle like if it all is real, I think the strategy is to slowly get us accustomed to the concept.

1:41:44Just the idea that we're not alone and just get it in there. Okay. First step first shot across the bow, 2017, New York Times. New York Times says not of this world. Oh my god. You know you see the pictures of the gimbal and the go fast and you're like, okay. All right. Now we're talking. But that's eight fucking years ago, right? Nothing real significant in eight years. And so then you have sightings. You have these you know, there's different pilots, Commander Fraver. He comes out. Does podcast. You have Ryan Graves. He comes down does podcasts. You know, you have Louis Elizondo. Everybody's talking.

1:42:23No one's showing you shit. Yeah. You had Fowler who you had on your show. I had Fowler. What did you think of him? I thought that he's they've got to show data. They have on their website like a container for the data they haven't populated it yet. I want to see the data and I want to see a scientist who they don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic. But they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what a UFOs are. Like I don't know anything about this stuff. What is and like vetting it. Now being as deep as I am in UFO research where like I know there's a nuclear connection. There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and NUX and it's like 600 pages and it is 167 Q cleared ICBM security personnel radar operators employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see tick -tax or saucers all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites often disarming the NUX.

1:43:19And so it's always tough to answer that question where you're like, what do you think of Skywatcher? I'm like, if I don't have that ontology where like UFOs are showing up around NUX constantly, which I'm deep in this and they did do. They show up all around the world. There's a town in Japan called ENO, which is next to the Fukushima prefecture. Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s. It has a museum dedicated to UFOs in the 90s that they built. Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs, vice -dited documentary in 2020 -2022 because they are obsessed with UFOs.

1:43:51They're geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain, Senganmori there and there are UFO researchers there. Everybody in that town believes in UFOs. Barra Loce, Argentina, 1995. You have a commercial, they're famous for again, civilian nuclear grid. Commercial pilot at Airelena's Argentinus or whatever. Famous UFO sighting. It shuts down the power at the airport and the thing has the plane can't land and then it goes around in a circle and there are people on the flight who have been interviewed. It's on a YouTube video. It's pretty simple and easy to digest. Even Roswell, 1947, the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date at that time, 1947.

1:44:35So there are all these declassified documents. In 1949, there was an emergency meeting. Declassified Air Force document that is verified between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI, Office of Naval Intelligence. All these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the US. In 1952, there's a look magazine article where Captain Edward J. Ruppelt, who's kind of marginalized pre -Bloodbook really taking off with Jalen Heineck, who I think was basically a disinfo agent where he's I do.

1:45:09And he's claimed to have gotten better and kind of be admitted as part of the cover up. But then I think he kept going on with some... Andrew Suckery. Yeah. So if you don't have that ontology, there's even Vasele Alexeiev is a Russian general in a German magazine from 2000. He's interviewed. And he talks about how UFOs show up at the forefront of human ingenuity and advancement. And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up. In chapter nine of the Invisible College by Jacques Valle, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system. And when we... It's like a node lights up.

1:45:54When we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous. So if you don't have that ontology, like yeah, me saying these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit. In the desert, getting stuff to show up, you're gonna be like, that's a fucking mylarably. And I'm sorry. But if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I do think they can get stuff to show up what they're getting to show up. I don't know. Can they get it to land? I don't know. I think you explain how they're getting this stuff to show up, what signals are they putting out there that represent something to these supposedly something to these UAPs?

1:46:37Unfortunately, they kind of black box it. And so I have to assume it's either nuclear. They do say that they have a dog whistle, which is a certain frequency. There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have docks that might be their thing, but I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing. So there are, but the idea is they call them. They call them. They use something to send a signal out there and then these crafts respond. Is it 100 % of the time? They say that the dog whistle works 100 % of the time and they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs and of this is really weird, but humans trying to call in the UFOs.

1:47:14I've heard that before, right? Yeah, C5 is sort of a calm. I can't almost sit on the dark show. I don't think, but is that what we're talking about? I don't want to make it. That might be a 2 .5 -kit -EA. What do you not want to make, Jim? I don't know. Do you want me to show this or not? I don't know if he's in. It's bad. I don't want to give it to him. No, I'm not saying that. I don't think it's on. I'm not saying it's fine. I don't think I don't think I want to run on their own. I don't think Skywalker would like say that that's definitely, you know, endorsed that as their thing, because they kind of black box it, but that could be.

1:47:40That could be real. Okay, so what it's saying, want to know how to make a dog whistle for summoning UAP? Here's how super easy. What's his signal? 7 .83 Hertz carrier via modulated 100 Hertz base tone. Schumann residents, do you understand any of this? Me? Yeah. Do you know what they're saying? Well, Schumann residents is the kind of, you know, electromagnetic frequency of the Earth itself. And so I don't know what that means, modulated via a hundred hertz. What is this 528 Hertz harmonic spiritual frequency? What is that? That's low tone. Is that what it is, Jamie? I just know the numbers. So like when you get up to 17K, that's a high.

1:48:20That's a real high pitch. Like, oh, and the high numbers, like that are low. Yeah, then low is, oh, so it's just a, that's thousand and then not thousand. So 20 Hertz is as low as you can hear. That's like a low base sound. So I guess there's being generated out of some sort of machine, which doesn't say here on what you need to generate it, but I don't know if you just play it on a piano or anything, you know. Interesting. And then organic 2 .5 Hertz chirps every 10 seconds, like creature calls, giving it a unique signature. Huh. I don't know where he would get this. He's gonna be a cook. Yeah.

1:48:52It needs to be a cause. There's so many cooks out there. A lot. Boy, there's so many cooks. There's so many cooks, cooks and grifters. It's infiltrated. It's every, so my, my contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many cooks and grifters, but there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truth than full cooks and grifters. Oh, yeah. And that makes it so complicated because you're like, you're bad vibes and you will like are doing some controlled opposition thing. But like, I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info. Right. That's the problem. You talk and I've had conversations with people like that where I'm talking.

1:49:31I'm like, I think you're at least partially full ship, but like keep going. Yeah. Tell me more. Yeah, totally. You're like, I know there's some stuff and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me. And you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit and then you'll track it. Right. Right. Right. Right. It's this weird game. Well, in the age of disclosure, one of the things they go into is that if these programs have been running and if they have been batch back engineering crafts that are not of this world, there's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds.

1:50:04So anybody who did that is going to jail. So what they're calling for is mass amnesty. They're calling to say, Hey, you know, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program. Otherwise, we're never going to learn anything. And then there's the problem with corporations. So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, you know, what does General Electric think about that? Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how can we get in close? So then they want to sue. And then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever interfering with competition. I yes. So there are all those issues.

1:50:37And right now the UAP disclosure act is up again, it was killed by a guy named Mike Turner who has a bunch of aerospace. The fuck Mike Mike come on Mike. He's out now. Oh, he and guess what? He represented Dayton, Ohio, where right Patterson Air Force bases. And Jamie. Sorry, Jamie. Jamie gets so excited when you'd bring up Battelle and all the Ohio shit. We've gone deep. I mean, Battelle is very implicated in all this stuff from the 40s from the 40s, but even the all -to -main anomalies are resolution office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think the modern blue book that's, you know, basically saying don't look here.

1:51:19Like this is all bullshit or whatever. Run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick. He has all these like atomic connections. He worked at Oak Ridge for God's sake. Hit the guy that formed aero upon whose recommendation arrow was formed is a guy named Ed Mulchery, who is under secretary of defense for intelligence. And he was on Battelle's board. And he scrubbed that from his LinkedIn. And my good friend, UAP Gerber, who is an amazing channel. He's super deep UFO researcher, showed that it was on his resume. And then he recommends that arrow formed. It's like the total conflict of interest. It's insane.

1:51:56It's insane. Yeah. There's so many bottlenecks to disclosure. Like legal bottlenecks. Yes. Yeah. Especially the misappropriation of funds. Yeah. I mean, how much money was involved when you're, you must be talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars if all these programs are real. So if they've been lying to Congress. It's on the order. It has to be on, and it's funny. A lot of modern disclosure talks about OSAP and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012 kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid. And that budget was $22 million. A single F 35 costs four times that the B2 costs like $2 billion.

1:52:39Like it's give me a break. The nature of reality, you're going to spend $22 million. So it's funny how the whole conversation is on this like clearly this thing to like get more civilian eyes on the issue. Maybe see what they can figure out or whatever. The core program, if there is a core program, which obviously I believe there's a core program. It's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th 2001, where he said $2 trillion was missing from the Pentagon's budget. It's shit like that or this woman named Catherine Austin Fitz who was just on Tucker Carlson who was at housing and urban development under George Bush 41, where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget.

1:53:24It is not this little $10 20 million. She's talking about $21 trillion breakaway civilization has been developed. Yeah, it's it what? Yeah, she says it at a moment. First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan who Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO researcher half that interview in Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is. So it's this funny thing. And then she got and then he's like, where are the funds being used? And she goes space and it's like the where it's not being used. It's SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear right? Right. SpaceX Blue Origin. So like what do you mean space?

1:53:55Like SpaceX is basically like those fucking go -karts that people send down hills with no engines. Right. You know what I mean? Like one of those things called you know those things when they have races where people they they make their own down the hill. So like Derby? No, no, not that. Yeah. Yeah. So boxes the little. So boxes. Yeah, that's what it's like. Yeah, that's what SpaceX says. Exactly. If we have any of this shit, that's what SpaceX is using really ancient technology to achieve these results. It's business. It's and I think you on's amazing. He's single -handedly resuscitated NASA, but it is a it is an earth -based space company.

1:54:35I think he keeps stuff sacred. He does. He absolutely keeps stuff sacred. He tells me there's no evidence of aliens that like there's something about it that just stinks. When he's saying it, I'm like, okay. So you okay? I look at Adam. Yeah. Nothing? Yeah. You don't think nothing? I'll pop something. I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before. I've found the stumbled down this when you guys are talking about some stealth project. This is an article from Wired in 1994. I looked up the guy who wrote it. He's written a bunch of articles about the black budget back then. He's talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who through monitoring like the, sorry, the communications.

1:55:19He heard different pilots talking about what probably is the TR3 black manta. And then it says he's got a picture of it. I couldn't find it anywhere online. It's nothing even close comes up to it. But this is he had a video of it, a picture. I'm assuming some people have seen it because it talks about it. Then it goes into talking more and more about how he, how he did this. And he says he's got files of them talking about all sorts of different planes at night that you were mentioning the Moxix or when I was like, when you said that is when I found this on here. That's fascinating. I haven't seen it.

1:55:53There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR3A and the TR3B. The Belgian wave occurred around this time and it was like late 80s, early 90s. I think a lot of the triangle craft that people see are human. Because it's just it's a derivative. It's a direct light stuff. Like because there's a lot of things out during the Phoenix lights. I saw the triangle craft. Kurt Russell was actually flying his plane. So the one I brought up there that they said they think was in Desert Storm and they just don't really have that's why I need proof online today. So the TR3B is the this looks like the triangle thing that everybody's seen.

1:56:27Yeah, look what is the fucking center of it? What is that? Well this is just probably someone maybe know a photo trying to describe it. But the bottom of it is what everybody says. You know, so the TR3 series that was built by Northrop I believe. Is that right? Like a horror was lucky now. So if you confirm that look like they no one knows this is like no one has any proof of these even existing. All the talk online is back into the 90s of just like do these exist. We probably have them. So no one knows for sure. So here's a weird. Okay, so I think if this is North, I think TR3 the TR3 series is Northrop.

1:57:03So the connection between Northrop and towns and brown is in the mid 60s. Townsend Brown is being funded by a guy named Floyd Oedlam. Floyd Oedlam is the the majority owner of Northrop pre merger with Grumman. And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at guidance technologies his outfit in Santa Monica. This was all this investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out. He is doing these experiments. Bill Lear is actually has an office across the street. They're doing all sorts of cool innovative stuff. He does a series of presentations, Curtis LeMay for the Rand Corporation for all sorts of kind of you know head haunches when it comes to American military.

1:57:44In 1967, a guidance technology shuts down with no explanation. They say you know our results all failed. But after a bunch of the a series of these high level meetings, that was at the end of 1967. Three months later at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called ElectroDynamics and Supersonic Flow or In Supersonic Flow. And it is basically paying homage to Electrohydro Dynamics and Townsend Brown's work. It is exactly part and parcel Townsend Brown's work. They then do a press release at the time. They retract the press release because they are embarrassed. Then later Bill Scott at Aviation Week and I B2 Surfsits Own Wave using the Byfield Brown effect.

1:58:32There's a guy who's known as the Dooyen of British Aviation Journalism. His name is Bill Gunston and he and air International magazine is doing a survey level overview of all arrow engine tech since World War II. And he says I am familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Brown's work. But I don't want to end up in the Tower of London. So I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charge positive to millions of volts charge negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B2. Still far more? Yes. And what is the Tower of London? What's that reference to? He's just saying I don't want to end up in jail.

1:59:12Tower of London's fireworks jack the ripper ended up around. I don't think it was like in you know, but he's like don't get on my ass. Surfsits Own Wave. Surfsits Own Wave. So if you put that electro -air dynamics and supersonic flow paper which is available, you could put that into chat GBT and how it could be like how can this confer an advantage to an airframe for you know, yeah you can do that. And I'll tell you what it's like. It's wild. It's wild. I'll give you a bunch of answers for what's in the air. So that's the paper. Yeah. I'll write down a little bit like the B2 the B2 is still so locked out.

1:59:55We sell F 35s to allied nations Norway, Canada, you know, whatever. We don't sell B2s to anybody, even including allied nations. The ticket price is two billion. They have a new version of the B2 that's you know, I think like 700 million or whatever, but they weren't built at scale. They're extremely locked down. It's pretty crazy. Wow. So what would they be doing? Like how would it be surfing its own wave like what what advantage would that confer? If you do this chat GBT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the air flow as much and so you get more lift and there's reduced drag. The shock wave is reduced.

2:00:37The electric field somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the the frame hits the air. And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade, but that even you know, conventional AI will tell you that it will do as far as being held. Gun to head. How far do you think they've gotten this stuff? Man, I mean this stuff was being this was like 80s and they're probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s. So definitely way farther than that. Do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about that we see on the desk right there, the sport model?

2:01:13Do you think that that was ours? That feels really hard for me to to to say and good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled. Also, no seams. No seams. 3D printed. Totally. Element 113 or 115 rather. And this generator that nobody understands. Yeah, I'm that I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico desert that is and this is where it gets weird because everybody wants a clean solution. Everybody wants the the anti gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti gravity. Including Lazar. Like he said when he saw the sticker on it, there was an American flag sticker on the sport model.

2:01:54He's like, Oh, I get it. These are ours. Yep. That's why people keep seeing them. And then as he started examining these things, he's like, no. Yep. This is not ours. Like, what the fuck is this is meant for three foot tall things. Yeah, there's no controls in this. Like, what is this? If reality has a governor on it and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird quantum computing. If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off. Do you get is it like a hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place or do you get one neat solution?

2:02:29You don't get one neat solution. Of course not. It's a zoo of things. And so at the time that like the government's kind of unraveling and all these we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever. And you get these secret science lineages. And then our our apertures are open. People are waking up to greater realities. The fact that the pandemic could even happen like is sort of so crazy. And then it makes you question, it was like, what about the Gulf of Tonkin USS Mayhem and all these things. Yeah. I think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time. And it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti gravity just, you know, accounts for the UFOs and the aliens.

2:03:05Right. And the UFOs and nuke stuff, which was happening since the 40s. Right. Where it's like, I don't know how I can explain that via anti gravity experiments. And then there's a question of how many? How many different civilizations visit us? How many different things? How many different versions of these things are there? If this is like a testing ground, is it is this open to the general public of space? Also, also not zero or one, probably zero or a hundred. It's probably a zoo of things. Right. Right. And it's the most likely thing. That was what was interesting about your episode that you did with Fowler where they were documenting the different shapes.

2:03:42And I'm like, okay, where's the flying saucer? You don't have a flying saucer. Yes. How can we know have a flying saucer? You have all these other shapes. Totally. You have a tick -tack. You have a Tetris or whatever the fuck it is. Uh -huh. Where's the one that everybody see? The iconic Billy Myers. Yeah. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. You know, it is weird. Oh, so do you work for the CIA? I do not. I do not work for the CIA. Do you have to answer if I ask you, is it like, do you remember those movies? Well, you ask a guy, if they're an undercover cop, you ask them if they're a cop, they have to tell you.

2:04:14Yeah. People really used to believe that. Yeah. It's just a fictional tool. They don't really have to tell you that they're undercover cops. They don't have to tell you. But there is, I think there's like one, two, two, triple three or whatever. Where like, if you're CIA, you can't be fucking with domestic stuff, which I think they break all the fucking time. Oh, I don't think that's it. They probably passed laws that bypassed that a long time ago. For sure. Well, I, yeah, I mean, I think they also killed Jeff. Okay. This is the Bansen Lab video. There you go. What's really crazy is that looks remarkably similar to the design that Lazar said the generate it looks like that's inside the UFO.

2:04:47Well, here's something crazy. Lazar says there are two different gravity, gravity A and gravity B. Yeah. Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called the structure of space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation. By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that skunk works formed, which I think is very interesting. And he says in structure of space, there are two forms of gravity. He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills. And he talks about how the, yeah, it's crazy. He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons.

2:05:20And so you get this weak positive charge for all that matter that creates a gravity well, like this inward pull, but in fact, it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model. And again, I would not over index on his theory. I think there's tons of proof that he just figured out this topological physics effect and other people figured out theory. Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories. Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics. How put us probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff, sunny white, you know, other people like that.

2:05:53But yeah, it is interesting that you both of these guys had two versions of gravity. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's very interesting. The Lazar stuff to me, if a guy's going to be a liar like that, it's going to tell a lot of lies. Right. It's only just one lie from 89. Yeah, I mean, you basically say the same version of forever. Yeah. I mean, the other weird thing in that story is in messengers of deception, Jacques Vallet's book. He talks about, because he's not a believer in Lazar. He talks about Lazar being forced to drink a liquid. And Lazar even talks about this openly that he was forced to drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something.

2:06:36And it causes memory lapses in certain cases. So that's also a weird factor. But there is so much, I think, my buddy, Luigi, I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey. He was an amazing UFO channel called Area 52. And he's met Lazar through Luigi. And I don't want to blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being at Area 51 S4. And so it's so fascinating. So they gave him this liquid to kill's memory. I didn't have the idea behind it. I don't know if he knew the intent. It was just drink this or whatever. And then he said that it caused at least in the Valle readout.

2:07:13He says that it caused memory lapses is the quote in messengers of deception. But here's this way it gets so confusing. If you have MK Ultra was super widespread, it was deleted, you know, the church committee or whatever. But like it was it was a very widespread program. What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MK Ultra? It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into saying that they saw a flying saucer. It would be around the flying saucer program to fuck with the person's memory so that they couldn't read certain things out. So it's just this again, it's hard to say.

2:07:48Well then there's also weird stuff like the large folder that was on religion. Yes. You know, like how much of that is just misinformation. I think a lot of that was passage material because it's similar to passage material. What does that mean? It's basically stuff given to somebody where it's like certain provably false things. You can track where the provably false stuff goes or whatever. It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it. It's like spooky intel shit. And in 79 there's a guy named Rick Dodie who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane basically. He views this vertically taking off and landing exotic craft at hurtland air for a space where there are a lot of interesting things seen.

2:08:32And he is shown similar things along with Linda Moltenhow is taken in front of a two -way mirror in Rick Dodie, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who we know is acting in bad faith at that time. He's even come out and admitted this shows her this thing called project Garnet. And it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution to the stuff that they showed Luzar. Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this like ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing? And if it doesn't make sense. And this is what I love about Luzar.

2:09:08Luzar will admit that he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and bullshit. And I only am relaying what I saw with regards to the craft. And I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value. So there's project Galileo, there's looking glass, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky. And I think worthy of engagement with like all these weird limited hangouts are. But do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are? Do any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI?

2:09:49That's such a great question. I don't think so. I don't think so either. It's almost always nuclear. That seems crazy. Well, maybe that seems crazy that there's no discussion about you are on the verge of something truly spectacular. Maybe AI is their control system. Maybe they are AI. Maybe AI becomes that. Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed. And the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology. We are now experimenting with computational biology. You can use things like this Neuro Scientist Carl Friston, the free energy prince. There's this company called Cortical Labs. And I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these micro electrode plate arrays.

2:10:32And they program like rat cultured rat neurons to do basic computational tasks. And so like if that's the super base level, right? Like we're just creating the like transistors for this like a new model of computation. But if you go way out into the future, you have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies. And you know, these things could be drone avatar. That's why when people are like, why do they crash? This could be their earth homeostasis kit that they've deployed. They're just Von Neumann replicator probes meant to you know, oversee the earth. And you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear or like an AI thing or like it's also like Pousalca, you know, Diana Pousalca.

2:11:11She thinks they're donations. That's what she says. Yeah, they're called donation sites. And yeah, like, which is like if you want to accelerate an evolution like, hey, wouldn't it be cool if you guys made this? Just leave the wheel. You know, look over here. Leave this. Leave that. It kind of, I mean, that's the way to get someone to think outside the box. Plant the seed. Yeah. You just, you don't want to wait for these morons to figure out how to make this. If you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel Island, which has no contact with humans, what would you, you might just air drop a computer figure it out, you know, maybe like a computer.

2:11:47This is start with a lighter. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Computer might be a little bit. Yeah. But yeah, you would give them some stuff. Yep. Yeah. And let them figure out how to make that stuff and give them the raw materials to make that stuff. Totally. Especially if you, like, you have some complex alloy, like this bismuth, whatever the hell it is, what layered, like, find that, figure that out. Yeah. Can you make it? Yeah. You get your best scientist and you compartmentalize it. You do it over decades because you really can't open it up. And this is one of the things that Lil' Zara said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4 is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized.

2:12:26You need to be able to open it up to collaboration. Yeah. There was, you couldn't collaborate. You weren't allowed to. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, we're not going to get anywhere. Okay, we're going to bring in new people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're going to bring in a new guy, see if this new genius can, hey, what do you think of this? Like, what is it? You tell me. That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure where if you have cold war, war, era secrecy, it's like if we're ahead of Russian, China clamp down. We feel like can't let them know anything. Right. But then all of a sudden, maybe they play catch up.

2:12:55And then all of a sudden, maybe you have this archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid FOIA requests, where you have restricted data covering material found by specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever. And you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, holy shit, we need to update this stuff. So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels. We need some disclosure on these. You can't, it is maladaptive from a national security standpoint to have some STEM student in Kentucky who's a prology to not even think this shit is real.

2:13:35Right. Right. Right. And then you're dealing with China where they've got it completely opened up and they're like, make this completely open up. And like, I don't know if you've read, there's a great Chinese science fiction novel called the Three Body Problem. Great show on Netflix. It's amazing. And the CCP will show up at your door and say, come work for us. You are working here. And that's not really the way we do things. So the way we do things is like, you get this stuff out and these kind of partial limited hangouts thing. You go, go compete like just like the AI stuff. Right. Right. And it's like, see what happens over there.

2:14:07If you leak it, they'll just fucking kill you. Yeah. Exactly. You're not going to leak it. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's to me, the, the question of civilization, are we alone? It is the question. And I don't think we are. Yeah. That's my, my, my gut instinct. I don't think we are. It seems so ridiculous when people do think we are. I agree. I agree. Yeah. Well, what about the numbers? Just the sheer numbers. Like, it doesn't make any sense that this is so unique that we in this one very tiny planet, it's spinning around a, not so special star. Occam's razor is we are not alone. You have the Fermi paradox.

2:14:48You have the Drake equation. You have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that. But also, look at, there's a great book called The Half Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman. And he talks about how like at any given time, 50 % of, you know, received knowledge, like our physical model of the universe is wrong. So you can say those things are showing up in the sky. That is wrong because physics. But historically, you would have been wrong. Like, that's crazy. It's a bad point, right? And so, if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern enlightenment history is a detour from the past.

2:15:25If you look at every culture, whether it's eamblicus or, or, or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St. Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament, like a multitude of angels. You have angels and demons. You know, that's kind of the passport to Magonia, Dynaposalco American Cosmic Thesis. Like, this stuff has been going on forever. You look at the Davas and, you know, and Hindu culture or the Jin and Islamic culture. Like, we are outnumbered in our modern, you know, enlightenment, rational skeptic epistemology. Yeah. We really are. And how many depictions from the past of flying things, Ezekiel from the Bible, the Mamas, all these different, like, what are they saying?

2:16:06What are these things? Like, what do you think that stuff is? Like, what is it? You know, and, but then again, you and I, neither one of us, is how to an experience. So we're just like fucking, I've seen in the wind. I've seen something. I've seen a UFO. But have you seen? I've seen, actually, a few, but really? Yeah. Yeah. How have you been so lucky? I don't know. I don't know. And it's because they know, and I, and I, they're like, there are UFO researchers that like don't like to talk about this, but I think the move is just beyond. I still like, I've seen the thing. And I just, I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live.

2:16:41And I saw a thing that looked like a fucking school bus. It looked like, like, no visible propulsion, this, like, sort of low humming noise or whatever. It was maybe 50, 60, 70 feet high, like above the, right above the tree tops. The, the, the trippiest part of the experience and why this is, it's just so weird is I was with this woman I was kind of dating at the time. We were taking a walk in Laurel Canyon. And she was like, are you into aliens? I was like, actually, I kind of am and I was kind of interested in that topic. And, and then I think I joked back. I was like, how do I mean, alien?

2:17:18And she was like me too. And then she goes, you'll, you'll meet them when when you stop looking for them. Oh, that bitch is an alien. And then as we're, as we're, this is the weirdest part of the whole story. As we're walking, it's like sunset in Laurel Canyon. We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's like looking for something or it's like, why are you looking for something at sunset in Laurel Canyon or whatever. So like that felt like this weird, you know, like mirroring of our conversation. I again, I have no fucking idea. Then we walk into into this little clearing and we see this like school bus thing like just go right over the tree.

2:17:55It was silver metallic. Like an air stream trailer. Like an air like an air stream trailer. Yeah. I can send you guys a video. I went on Chris Ramsey's podcast. I described it. And I was sent a video and for all I know this video is fucking fake, by the way. But it was the thing that looked most like what I saw because it doesn't match up with like the saucer, you know, triangle thing. Yeah. And I don't know. I'm almost more inclined to say discount my own thing over like the cute, cleared guys who've like seen these things that they've cleared it in the sky for. It was in the sky for like a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever.

2:18:37She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance. I did not see that. And like your type Laurel Canyon is like mostly residential. So like, like, where did it descend? Right. So what else have you seen? You said you saw more than one thing? Yeah. So another time I was actually with a friend who invests like with me and Peter and is like the most rational guy you'll ever meet. Like he's a fan of like Noam Chomsky and like David Hume. Like he is a modern rationalist atheist skeptic. And we went surfing that day. We're back at his place. I was super into holotropic breathwork at the time, which I love.

2:19:17And we were doing a holotropic breathwork five minutes in. We both see these like metallic looking orbs. This was this time super high up into in the sky. Like probably, you know, higher than what you would definitely way higher than a drone. And one's bobbing above him. One's bobbing above me. Similar to like the typical like orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe like the Mosul orb or whatever. You know, a lot of these sightings. And he looks at me and I go like, what the fuck is that? He goes, dude, I think that's like some secret black lockied tech or whatever. And then I don't even say anything two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes, dude, that's not fucking from here.

2:20:00That's not lockied. Like I don't know what that is. Do you entertain the possibility there's states of consciousness that you could achieve or these things become visible? Absolutely. And you've had Rick Strassman on. He talks about, you know, DMT the spirit molecule. He talks about DMT as like night vision or like, like it's like a, it's like a goggles or a window. You know, it's like Aldous Huxley, the doors of your perception. Are you super imposing a hallucination onto reality? Or are you just seeing, we see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum. We see between 400 and 700 nanometers are audio range, you know, there's a certain decibel limit, right?

2:20:38So like, when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things that are in objective reality? But we just don't have access to them. It's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality. And so it's this interesting philosophical question. I don't know the answer to it. Right. Would we even be able to function if we had access to that? Probably not. Probably not. No, it is, there's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's a cognitive psychologist. And he talks about it's like, why don't we see electromagnetic waves themselves? Like, why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies?

2:21:13It's, it's, we need to iconize everything we see just like a, you know, desktop computer. You know, like, why do you see red? Because you, boom, red, blood, gotta run, you know, whatever. And then they hack that with notifications on social media. But the point is we are seeing inherently a collapsed condensed version of reality. We aren't seeing the thing itself. Yeah. And so it ends up in these ontological loops where like, yes, some rationales skeptic can be like, you're, you're lying. That's full. It ends up in this not even wrong category of like, I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm.

2:21:48But neither the skeptic, we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say, don't trust your eyes. Right. And they're, that's as much faith -based dogma as what I'm saying. So who knows? And that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show. I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more. Right. But it's not to say you should discount these, you know, people's experiences where they do, you know, maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience a thing. Maybe that thing is real. Either, they might be multiple different types of things that come by.

2:22:20And the, the nuclear one is a weird one. I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognize an emerging civilization, then had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, hey, fuckers. Slow down. Yeah. The break, son. You know, you would freak out unquestionably. You know, that's why we named the, the rooms at the comedy mothership Fat Man and Little Boy because that's when they started showing up. That's when we got a lot of sightings was post post the bomb. Totally. And I love, I love the mothership, by the way. It's amazing. And I love going and seeing how you oppose me like in preparation for this.

2:22:57I've had a couple friends be like, man, Joe's like anti UFO though. I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure. Go to the mothership. The whole fucking thing is getting so you know, basically I'm anti UFO. This fucking UFO's ever is one of the deaths. There. I know. And he broke the biggest UFO story of all time. Like it's, you've done more for disclosures than anybody in my opinion. Well, I'm not anti UFO, but I'm allergic to bullshit. And this stuff, some of it smells like bullshit, which is, I would be remiss if we didn't talk about those little mummies in Peru. What do you think is going on there?

2:23:33They break my brain. They were, they are, they are, they are, this was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with. And I wish I could give you a definitive, these things are definitely dead aliens. I cannot say that definitively at all. I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically organisms. They are, they're organisms that they're not. They're incredible works of art. If they're not there, the most sophisticated hoax ever, that, that basically tricked forensic experts from John McDowell who run, he just won the greatest award in forensics you could win, or whatever, the Grand Wall Award, who is the president of the American Forensics, scientific association, or whatever in the US.

2:24:19Jim Caruso, who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner, in Denver, the equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr. David Riese, he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association, and the head of the Mexican navy forensics, guy named Dr. Jose Salze. All of these guys have seen, so, this, I think we're going to get in the head of ourselves. Let's explain to people so they can stand alone because a lot of people are like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, there are these very small, mummified looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a similar kind of thing to a human being, but varies enough that you know it's not us.

2:25:03And it has more ribs, it is more spinal columns, or more more more discs. This is what they look like. And there's x -rays of them, and that's where it gets really weird, and they're tridactyl, right? So they have three fingers and three toes. Yep. And so these were discovered in 2015 in a cave by a guy named Leandro, who goes by Mario, and this is one of the headaches about the case is like we don't have good provenance on it, so he is this walkero grave digger guy, and they were found in dichotamacious earth. So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies. Duitamacious earth is a desiccant, and so they were dried out, and a lot of the organs are actually still inside the bodies, and there are three different types.

2:25:49There are S types, which are these little winged creatures. They're J types. The J types are probably, they were most popularized in this Mexican Congress, where these things were outed in September of 2023, where they look like almost closing counters, Jamie Viscrawl down, like you see that Peruz Congress, like right there, like that thing looks like this like joky, like closing counters of the third kind. It looks totally fake. It looks totally fake, right? So those are the J types. They're like 25 ish, maybe 25 to 30 of those. But then there's the ones that they've x -rayed, and that's where it gets really weird.

2:26:20Though weirdest ones that I was talking about, the forensics people kind of evaluating are these M types. These are like four to five feet. They look pretty anatomically consistent. Have you seen them in person? I have. Really. Yeah, and what was your feeling? My feeling was, it was this, it was as with a lot of these things, oscillating between, holy shit, this thing is not from here. And then dude, you have to like chill, and like there's so many other things, there's so many other gates this has to get through for us to actually verify this stuff. See if you can get that go the x -rays, Jamie, find the images from the x -rays.

2:27:02That's one, but there's one that's a little bit better because it's one of the fetal position.

2:27:10Jamie, in my document, actually. Yeah, look at that one. Okay, there you go. So that one has eggs inside of it. What? If you go, moths are right. Which is, yeah. How weird. So if you go to the, yeah, if you go to, moths are out clip. Yeah. So this one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a tridactyl fetus inside of it. Yeah. How many of these they have? So they have eight to ten of these M types, these kind of most realistic looking ones. Eight to ten. And then they have 25 to 30 of the J types. So yeah, look at that. That's it. That's a 3D reconstruction of the cat scan. So they have teeth.

2:27:56That's weird. They have teeth. Yeah. They have tendons, they have bones, they have cartilage, they have organs inside. And then so this is where we need to verify stuff. They even have actually, could you go back to the part of the video where, what's that? Yeah, that part. They have the fuck is that man? That's crazy. They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century. Dude, this is art. If someone made this, I need to buy one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to tell me how much this costs. I would need to put it on my table because you're a genius.

2:28:32If you've made that, you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real. You're a god damn genius and you shouldn't just be hoaxing people. Well, so then the alternative is that's real. Well, that's real. That's completely insane. Joe, fortunately and unfortunately. Fortunately for you, maybe, but unfortunately, for the case, these walkeras, these gravediggers are selling some of these things on the black market. And this case is the wild, wild west. It is so much. How much did I get for? I've heard seven figures. I've heard a lot of money. She's the least. But Peter T. O 'Brien, one of these, don't say yes.

2:29:10Look at that thing. It's so crazy. But there are serious problems. I want to caveat all of this. I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this. If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever. It is about my friend, Michael Mozilla, who kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things. He's making a documentary on this. That's coming out this August and it's called This Is Not A Hoax. I told them to put in parentheses or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever. Because the DNA testing sucks. There's no signal, the signal noise ratio sucks on the DNA. How come? Because there was probably human contamination.

2:29:52The NCBI, which is this biotech repository, where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies, Victoria and Maria. This is all publicly available. They've done analysis on this. The camp that is very pro, these being alien. This guy, Jaime Mason, I actually think he's awesome. I love him. He's former 60 minutes guy in Mexico. He's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies. He's very open about we just need more scientific research. He wants more eyes on this thing. Some of the genetics researchers that they're basing the stuff on, I spoke to one of them. Dr. Ricardo Ron Hell.

2:30:40He's a biologist. I don't think he's actually a geneticist. His belief is this is, there's 30 % of this is unknown DNA that we don't know. In the 70%, you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar. Then you have DNA from a parasite in Africa. You also have Benobos and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate that held this DNA because it was before they phylogenetically split off. This is crazy. He was saying that a hominid species, an early hominid species went from Asia to Africa. There's some theories that they actually, East Africa is not the first dominant species. Maybe it was East Asia.

2:31:29It's already requiring some leaps of logic or whatever. Then had sex with this primate thing and you end up with this hybrid. Then another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, there's actually like transmission of beings from Africa to South America. I don't believe that. It's crazy. It's like saying the Pangolin theory is better than the Wuhan lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor. That's not real. We do know that there were other types of hominids that coexisted with human beings. Denysovans, the flores people, the hobbit people. What is the carbon dating on these things?

2:32:13Carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be inkin. That would be because inkin started in like 1450. Then all the way down to 1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people. That's what's fascinating because there's this mystery of the hobbit people, where they didn't really think that there's a lot of speculation that it was some bizarre type of human being that was deformed and tiny. Then they realized, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain. Just like Denysovans, just like Neanderthal. There's a thing called the Orang Pendeck. Have you ever heard of that? No, what is it?

2:32:58I believe it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam, where people talk about these little tiny hairy people that live in the jungle. These flores things, there's a few biologists that believe these things are still alive. Interesting. Even on the island of flores, they might still be alive. What? Are you serious? If this turns out to be true, let's imagine this, because there's been things like the Seal of Canceh, which they thought were extinct for millions of years. Then they caught one. They're like, oh my god, this is a prehistoric fish and it's still alive. Now they know that there's a population of them, but this is the deep ocean, much less explored.

2:33:39But when you look at Indonesia, when you look at flores, the island of flores, look at all these places. You're talking about insanely dense vegetation that is virtually uninhabited. So maybe, and these things used to live on that island. For sure, we've got bones. We know they lived, we know they used tools. We know they probably had language. They lived on that island. They might still be alive. We didn't know about these things. Was it the 90s, I think, when they discovered them? Denisovans, I think, was 2010. Then this new species, the big headed people, whether it's Julien's, where they go?

2:34:21That's it. That's like a few months ago. Right. They found these. This is another type of human being. What are the odds that there's some three -footed, three -toed thing that existed a few thousand years ago? And there are pictoglyphs all over the region, both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru. So this is one that looks fake as fuck. But this guy is driving in his motorcycle, and he's filming, and he claims that he got this thing running away. No way. A little hairy thing. Yeah. You could see, as he's riding his motorcycle, this thing darts across the road in front of him. And this is a few years ago, too, where CGI sucked.

2:35:09So there it is. You could see it real briefly for a second. It just runs across the road. Look at that. Oh my god. What is that? I don't know. But if this thing did exist at one point in time, I mean, god damn it looks good. If it did exist at one point in time, and people do see it all the time, there might be a small population of them that are still alive. That thing, the X -ray of it, or the MRI, the CAT scan, looked human, but weird. Yes. But the teeth and the, it looked like a deformed human. And it is important to note that there were skull elongation rituals going on. Is there really the paracas people, which were pre the NASCA people?

2:35:52What were they imitating? That's the interesting question. What the NASCA lines? Why are they making, they probably humans that made these things? But there are things that only make sense from an aerial view. And they're miles long. And they're miles long. What are you doing? And they're there are pictoglyphs, cave art all over the region with three fingered beings, with tridactyl beings. Are they really? There are. And this is the weirdest thing. There's a guy named the area of mean who is like the first westerner. He's this French kind of, he's an amazing archaeologist and explorer. And he was the first guy that met Leandro, the grave digger who found the bodies to begin with.

2:36:30He, Calci is the actually like local dialect there that's spoken. He says that the name of the general region means laboratory for insemination and cloning. In Calci. Yeah. What? So like I have, I need to corroborate this. Like I don't have the skills to do that. But like that's what he says. It's crazy. What the fuck am I now? But then, holy shit. Why this case is such a headache is like there's this guy Steve Merah who I think is a totally, he's a UFO researcher. He's the one of the less mushy brain UFO researchers. There's a lot of mushy brain UFO researchers. Really smart guy. I've like quoted him a lot of my other videos.

2:37:15And he's like we looked at one of the M types, one of the bigger ones that like I'm still hooding out hope for it because like I'd love it to be real. And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanches and one came back male, one came back female. And so he was like I think they were constructed. But I'm like how do you get by these forensic experts? So it's this weird, that's just the DNA stuff. You don't get a good signal. And the reason that nobody even cared. This is the most interesting paleoarcheological case today in my opinion. The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023 when these were popularized by Jaime Mason where he rolled out this J -type of fina, the one that looked like kind of close encounters the third time.

2:37:53And in front of the Mexican Congress, this guy named Manuel Caceras who was an artist who was making renditions of the things with like wood and sticks and stuff glued together. He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada. And their Reuters picked this up saying this is all fake because of these fake and I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with where he goes this was art. We dub it. But he goes this was art. It's crazy. So that's the signals crossed. The signals crossed. And I think if there's anything about this case, it's like let's get our best and brightest on it and figure it out.

2:38:32I think we can figure out quickly if we had the right research and they're all these interpol laws like you can't move the bodies from Peru and it's crazy. Well even if it's just a different branch of the human chain, I mean that just if that's a different branch off the human tree, that's fascinating enough. I agree that there's like three fingered three -toed people that live totally with a weird shaped head. And if you find if the there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then at what point do you go this is the how can you hook set?

2:39:07How can you hook set? That's crazy. So and he's Zalsei who by the way is the head of the Mexican medical Navy. He was thrown in jail for supporting this case because they were like we don't want to be associated with this and now the new secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back and he's sort of being vindicated. But he is like I was like Jose like if you showed this cat skin image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor they didn't know anything about the case. Would they say it had three fingers? He goes yes. So if that's the case, I think that is a big deal. But then you have the Steve Marathon.

2:39:45So I just I don't want to come out fully. You know, I don't know. Of course. Yeah. Of course. But I mean how much evidence would there be? This is the problem with fossils, right? Because when things die they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance. You know like something unusual has to occur. You got to get trapped in mud. Right? Now that's how so most of the things that have lived we don't have fossils of. Which is if this thing was a small percentage or small population, small percentage of the living humans and some of them are like that and they just died off like 500 years ago.

2:40:24And these and these ones got saved because they were around a diatomaceous earth mine which preserved their organs and their whole bodies. Just from an anthropology perspective that should be the most fascinating thing. But it's got the stink of a hoax on it. So people don't want to go and study it. Yeah. I told the part of what I almost want to do is like a nature of reality fund that I tied to the show where I'm like I see so many cases like this where I'm like if we just had some money. And it's like so important for humanity, right? And it's like non -profit. It's just let's just pay to get the best people.

2:40:57I think one of the problems with modernity is like the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems. We're building $15 billion particle accelerators. People are stuck in string theory. We're like debating all this dumb shit and you have these things. I don't know if they're real. You can debunk it fine. But if they're real and it's not 0 % that they're real according to these forensic experts, let's pour some resources into it. Yeah, it might be real. They look real. They look kind of real. They look very real. When I was in Paris, I was freaking out. I was like what the fuck? I said if that's art, whoever made it is fucking incredible.

2:41:34If that's art, you would have to have a really deep understanding of anatomy and then alter it. Yeah. And then make it uniform. So you do multiple versions of these things. Go back to that image again, Jamie. Did one of you just showed me? Look at that head, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That looks like a fucking alien. It totally looks like you know. The one other weird wrench that I we should mention is there's a proteomics expert who wants to remain anonymous because I think he doesn't want to be associated with this stigma of this case. He looked at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J types.

2:42:10Now I don't think the J types, the things that were rolled out in the Mexican Congress are necessarily real. I think maybe they were made in homage to these things that do look more real. And he found alpaca proteins on them. And so that that's an important another important point that you know is a little fly in the real one. Of course, someone's going to make some fake ones. Totally. 100%. Yeah. But at the end of the day, like what is that? And why do they have three fingers? And the Lazar craft, didn't it have like some sort of an indentation for hands? It did. Yeah. I think that's it. And didn't have three fingers?

2:42:53Oh, I don't know. Did it? That would be wild. I don't know. I think it did. Oh my god. I think it did. And I think it was really small, just like these things are. We're breaking ground on the Joe Rogan experience. What if that's it? That's crazy. You know, and also here's the thing. We have this concept of this coming from another planet, but it might not be from another planet. Yeah. It might be from here. How put off noted that on your show. He has a paper called the salurian hypothesis, which is you have cataclysm like the younger dryest impact, you know, or other things like that. You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, you know, there's the asteroid impact killed all the dinosaurs or whatever.

2:43:34What? Wake off civilization. Exactly. Just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding. There you go. Right? Like to underground those tunnels and caverns in Turkey, where they have this immense underground civilization or a city rather. And it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something. Right. And that's what they think it was. Yeah. So imagine if there's some break off civilization, where they lived, I mean, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago, but they're different than us. And you know, sometimes they come visit. Could be, man, which is one of the reason why they come out of the ocean a lot.

2:44:08And totally they're transmedium. And like, in some sense, you would care way more about the nuclear stuff. You'd be like, don't destroy your plant. Don't destroy our planet. Yeah. You're here. You'll kill us too. You're stupid. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It will also, you're dropping nukes in the ocean. You know, the Marshall Islands test. Exactly. That's nuts. Really nuts. Yeah. And I think, yeah, there's a whole other rabbit. I don't know if you want to get it. Just see if you can find out if the bobbles are ones had handprints for three. There's a hand scanner. He talked about. It wasn't about three fingers.

2:44:42No, the hand scanner was at right. Well, Salamost. I typed in Bob Lazar UFO three fingers. AI says his claims have nothing to do with aliens. What did he say the controls for the vehicle? Because she was like mental, right? There's something about putting your hands on something. I believe there's something. Element 115. Did it say something about controls like that there? What did the inside of the craft look like? Inside of craft? So that's Jeremy Corbell. I can skip through that. Outlines. Okay. God, I want to say that they had three fingers. That would be wild. That would be fucking insane.

2:45:40Because they're tiny. They have three fingers. That's these things. He said the seats were very small. Yeah. They're supposed to like three feet tall or four feet tall. That's these things. There you get. That's these things. Yeah. And they're in the cave art. It looks like they're flying. It's like hard to say because it's on caves or whatever. I want to see that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can try Dacto Old Cave Art. God, how weird. And how old is this cave art? I think it's dates to the Naska period. So around that time. See, let's look up that first. He did try Dacto Cave Art. How weird. It's also fucking weird, man.

2:46:17Yeah, it's so weird.

2:46:26It's on is there's probably one in my doc, Jamie, that I sent you. There's one there. There's three. Yeah. Whoa. Three fingers and three toes. That's crazy. Textile fragments. Wow. It's like a 1000 AD. Whoa. Three fingers, three toes. Big crazy head. Weird eyes. How fucking strange, man. So nuts. There's so much we don't know. And everyone's scared of being ridiculous. I know. You know, everyone's scared. This is one of the great things about what you do and what I do is we don't have to worry about being ridiculous. Totally. Because we just are. Yeah. And we don't have to be like, we have credentials.

2:47:10Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. Yeah. Because so many people do worry about it. And they don't want to stick their neck out. But when you see something like this, the three fingers, three toes artwork from a thousand fucking years ago, yeah. And it looks really weird. And then you see these things, you're like, hey, is that real? Totally. And discoveries require boldness. They require like just going for it. And it's, it's, yeah, it's this like kind of nitpicky credentialism of like, I can't say anything other than the established one.

2:47:42What is your incremental addition then to human knowledge? Right. And when faced with undeniable evidence, will you relent? Will you give in? Or you just like, will you just like dig your heels in forever and claim bullshit to the, to your job on the face of the earth? Like, what's going on with Egypt? You know, like, you know, when I had Zahih Hawasson and he's just completely unwilling to look at that, what is it, tomography? The data that shows that there might be something underneath the pyramid. Right. This is bullshit. This is like, is it a shore? Yeah. How do you know? You don't even understand the science?

2:48:21There's possibly no. No first principles arguments around it. It's just no, it can't be or whatever. And like, oh, so you're, it's politics. It's science is supposed to be the most immune from politics. And it's the most political thing. It is when you find that out. It's so disappointing. It's so disappointing. And then when you have these scientists that like dismiss people and they immediately start using tear, look at this one. That's so wild. Wow. This, whatever that thing is around it has a like one arm with three and then one arm with three, one foot with three and one foot with three. Wow.

2:48:58Wow. What is that supposed to be representing? Two heads. I don't know. There's a couple other things on the other page. I had to do it. It's the cats. Maybe two heads, but no eyes. How weird is that? Like, what is that? That's a big eye when I hear when I hear it to eyes and eyes. Or maybe that's it inside something that it controls. You know what I'm saying? A little sports model. Right. What's showing the fingers, meaning like the fingers or what operates this thing? What are you seeing? This is so nuts, man. It's so crazy. All three fingers. Like, what are the fucking odds of that? Yeah. Yeah.

2:49:33What are the odds of this a thousand years old, these images and these textiles? And then you find this stuff. Totally. Like what? And it's in the mythology. Right. What the fuck is going on, man? I know. It's so frustrating, Chessie. I'm with you, man. And the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent. We have to like light our it and like, we're finding cities every day. Right. We need to do the research. Yeah. We do. We do. Look at more of these. More three finger ones. God. So weird. Yeah. So weird. Almost that weird bird that we looked at the other day with Luke. Yeah. It does. He's saying that was on a pet your glove.

2:50:15Yeah. And Luke who hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show. He's been on. I know. He was amazing. Yeah. He's fantastic. He was so good. He he will say like he's been everywhere, right? And like he's always like Peru is the weirdest place I always go. Really? So. Wow. Yeah. Well, dude, thank you so much for coming in. I fucking love your show. It's so good. It's excellent. American Alchemy. It's on YouTube. Is it just Jesse Michaels on YouTube? Like how do they find a channel? Jesse Michaels on YouTube. I have a WOP, which is where we it's called WHOP. It's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about cool science and frontier stuff.

2:50:56I don't know. I don't sleep. It's most absorbed because your stuff is really well produced. Thank you. It must take an enormous amount of time to edit all that. Honestly, I'm burnt out. Listen, I'm glad you're doing it. I really appreciate you. I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Everybody go watch it. Go check out the channel. It's fantastic. If they want to find you on social media, what is your? My social media, Jesse Michaels official on Instagram. Out to me, American. No, A, thank you. Vain in my existence. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm all called back in the day. All right. Well, thank you so much.

2:51:30It was fun. Let's do it again sometime. And more shit's going to come out. Hopefully. Let's do it. All right. A lot of work. Thank you. Bye, everybody.