#2343 - Joe Pistone

31:06You know, well, tell us some people that you stole with. I said, No disrespect, but I'm not giving you any names of people that I stole with. I said, Why would I do that? Why would I give up anybody that I did scores with? Right? So this goes on and on and on. After about four hours, finally, Julie says, Hey, Donnie's been with us for months now. We know what he can do. It's over. It's over. I said, Okay. Now I got a problem. The problem is they just called me out. So in their world, I can't go shake their hand because this wise and Donnie pissed off. All right. My only recourse here is some kind of physical recourse.

32:06But I can't do anything to Patsy because he's the made guy. I can't touch him. And that's that's one of the rules of the mafia. You don't lay your hands on the made guy. It'll get you killed. It'll get you killed. So you know, I can hit his Frankie. He's not a made guy. So we get up and start to walk out. And I call cock Frankie. Oh, Jesus. But that's the only thing that that's going to save me because otherwise it's wise and Donnie pissed off. Right. So now I'm in the Frankie question in you too. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. But he's not a made guy. So he's fair game. So I hit him. He goes down. Now Patsy's jumping.

33:03I mean, he's punching the hell out. But I can't. I can't hit him back. I can just protect myself. But I figured, well, you hit me once. I hit Frankie twice. So it went on. So then finally they broke it up. But now I know I can't stay around here. I can't stay with these guys because you know, you can't get into an altercation with made guys. And have it come out. So after, after we're everything settled down, I'd say to Julie, Julie, let's take a walk and talk. So we do. We get outside. I said, Julie, look, no disrespect to you. You know, I said, but I can't. I can't come around here anymore. I said, because you know, what's going to end?

33:56He says, yeah, Donnie, I realize that. He said, but you know, no real feelings between you and me. I said, okay. So at the card game, I was introduced to a banana guy by name of Tony Mirror. I had never done anything with him, but I was introduced to him. So I go back, I go back with Charlie, you know, to the card games. And I start side enough to this mirror who is a complete psycho case, a complete fucking psycho case, which I find out later on. He's a big, broly guy.

34:43And he says, you know, lunch comes downtown. I said, yeah, okay. So he was from Little Italy. And that's where he hung out. He had a bus stop lunch in it down a little bit, but he was psycho. So I started hanging out with him. My first banana guy that brings me around.

35:15So we're out one night and he was shaking down nightclubs. And I was helping him when I say helping. I was with him, you know, shake down owners at nightclubs and stuff.

35:33So it's about three or four in the morning, one morning, and we go to a diner for breakfast. And the eggs come out cold. So he starts to be rating the waitress. And there's a, you know, we were with other wise guys and stuff. So I said, Tony, I said, you know, I said, she's only doing her job. I said, why are you taking it out on her? You know, she's here four o 'clock in the morning, waitressin. So he tore this shit out of me. He tore into me in front of everybody. But I really can't go back at him. But I have to let him know that, you know, I'm not, I'm not a pushover. You know, so the next day, now this guy, as I, as I had gotten to know him, I had seen him in action.

36:33So the next day I told him, I said, Tony, nobody else is around. So it's, it's my word on his. I said, don't ever talk to me like that again in front of people. I said, cause I'll fucking stab you. I said, you won't even know what's coming. I said, don't ever embarrass me like that. Call me those names in front of other people. And he was like, so. But he introduced me to, kept introducing me to other bananas. And then he introduced me to that. Yeah, after that. So after that, did you get his respect by saying this to Apple? I don't think people realize how disgusting the data collection industry really is.

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38:40Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, because he knew that I was in motion. And I mean, you know, he just beat me down in front of other people. I mean, not physically, but you know, just calling me, you know, and because I was standing up for this waitress, but that was him. So he introduces me to a guy by name of a lefty regerio, another made guy in the bananas from downtown, Nicarbaca Village. They all lived in Nicarbaca Village and get to do something to lefty. So no mirror had just gone out of the can. Now they send him back. Right? So he goes back to the can. He was a big money maker for the bananas in dope.

39:31He was a big narcotic guy for the bananas. But he had violated this parole so they sent him back. So I started hanging out with the regerio.

39:45And what mirror never did and what regerio did is his captain was a guy by name of Mike Sibela.

40:01And once I got, once regerio got to know me a little better, he brings me to Mike Sibela, who's the captain of the crew. And he said to Mike, I'm going on record that Don is with me. And that's what you do. When you're a made guy, you have an associate, you go to your captain and you go on record. So now nobody else could fuck with you. Nobody else could take you mirror and never did that. Even though I spent a lot of time with mirror, he never went to his captain and said, I'm going on record that Don is with me. So I get to know, I get to know what Gerry are pretty good. Start doing stuff with.

40:46So I'll told how much time are you undercover now? Now this is probably going over a year. Yeah, over a year now. No, you were reporting to anybody during this time. Do you have to go back to the FBI? Never, once I stepped that out of the office and everyone back to the office. I had, I had, what you have is a contact agent show. And that's somebody that you, if you have a problem, you call them. And he helps you solve it. So you're totally on your own. You're on your own. Wow. I had no surveillance because, you know, you're in New York City. Right. You're working seven days a week. You know, my day would go from maybe 11 o 'clock in the morning to maybe three, four o 'clock the next morning.

41:41Seven days a week. So, you know, your only lifeline is the phone to this, to your contact agent. Yeah. Wow. And so I'm doing a lot of stuff like that. And I'm gaining all kind of intelligence though, you know, identifying made guys, identifying guys and other families that are made. Are you writing this stuff down? Do you just keep it on your head? No, in your head. And what I do is I would regurgitate it over the telephone to my contact guy. And he would reduce it to paper. Yeah, because like, you know, these guys would come to my apartment. I couldn't take the shot of, you know, and I didn't wear a wire with these guys.

42:32You know, very seldom that I have a wire on. Most of my recordings are on the telephone. I wore a wire a couple of times when I knew I was going to get a contract to kill people. And when I had the feeling that I was going to be told about hits. And what I do is I had a mini, mini cassette recorder that I bought at, what's that radio shack? Oh, wow. You know, and I just put it in my, I just put it in my sport comp uncle. You have to be really worried about getting caught with that. Yeah, but at least there, you know, nobody's taping, you know, because once you get in with these guys, when you're beating for the day, they all hug each other and they kiss each other on both cheeks, you know.

43:27If they kiss you on a lips, then you're done. You know that that's the last fucking day you're going to be there. So, yeah, so I didn't make, I didn't make many body recordings because you're always. And they're very touchy -fuely guys, you know. I mean, when I was, I was with mirror one time. And we, he said, hey, pull over, Donnie, I pull over.

44:00And he tears my, he tears my, my car, the dashboard apart. Now, if you saw the movie, they had lefty, do that, but that was in the real life, that was Tony Mirror. I mean, you know, so I couldn't have my car wires. Right. Does he suspect in you or suspect in somebody else when he's tearing your dashboard? Well, it's, it's, well, I'm new, you know. Right. You know, nobody could go to anybody and say that they knew somebody, that they knew Donnie. Right. You know, so that's how they, that's how they check you out, you know, because they had no other way of checking me out, really. So, you know, hang on with Rogerio, doing stuff with him.

44:48And now we come to a point where I'm really in with, with the bananas. I mean, they're starting to talk, they were talking business with me there, you know. And they felt comfortable with me because, again, revert them back to my, my early years growing up, you know, hanging out in, at the, at the social clubs in the neighborhood. You know, I knew that if you don't have been interested in the conversation, walk away from it. And that's what I do with these guys is, if they started to talk about something, I would get up and walk away because it puts in their mind, you know, down he's not really interested in it.

45:46You know what I'm saying? It's not, he doesn't want to get into our real business. So, that made them trust me more, that made them trust me. You knew the protocol. Yeah, I knew, I knew the protocol, exactly. So, now what happens is that the FBI had an operation going in Milwaukee under cover operation against the Milwaukee family, right? It's about a strairry family who's connected to Chicago. Now, this will give you a little hint on how the mob works. So, they're not really good, not really going anywhere. They had a vendor machine company set up. And the undercover was undercover, actually, that I knew, which is, because I had a rule.

46:46If I didn't know you, I don't care if you're an FBI agent and I'm not introducing you. I'm not vouching for you, because I don't know if you're any fucking good or not. So, they reach out to me and they say, hey, we got an operation going in Milwaukee. Yeah, and this is what it is. We got a vendor machine company. We got trucks. We got a warehouse. We got machines. But we're not getting anywhere. The undercover, who's the undercover? Ty Cobb. That was the agent's real name. I said, tie the undercover. I said, yeah, I said, okay, now you can, now I'll listen to you. Because I know Ty and I had done undercover work in Chicago together.

47:47I said, okay.

47:52So, I'm talking, you know, I said, well, tell Ty to call me. I want to talk to Ty. So, he said, he tells me what's going on. He said, you know, I'm going to all these bars or restaurants and they won't take my machines, because the mob, it's all the mob's machines. I said, all right. So, I said, well, what's the plan? Well, maybe you can bring the bananas out here. And we can get a sit down with the balastraris. I said, well, let me see.

48:30So, we were Gerry on one day and I just, I dropped a, hey, left. You know, I got to call the other day from a guy that I used to steal artwork with. Down in Baltimore. And he's out in Milwaukee. He said, what the fuck's he doing in Milwaukee? I said, he's got a Vendor machine company. And he wants me to come out and help him. He says, is he crazy? He said, they'll blow him up out there. He says, he can't do a Vendor machine business out there. That's the mob. I said, well, he doesn't know, he doesn't know anything about the mob. And we drop it. A couple days later, I said, they left this guy calling me again.

49:17He needs help. He said, Donnie, what do you think? He said, you can't just go out there.

49:27And then he looks at me, he said, this guy got any money? I said, I don't know, let me ask her. I said, I'll call them tonight and find out if he's got any money.

49:40So, I called Ty. He was going by, he was going by name, Tony. And I said, Hey, Tony. He said, I said, left thing wants to know if he got any money. He said, he said, tell him I got 200 ,000 in the bank. And, you know, I got, I got a warehouse full of machines. I got everything set up. So, okay. So, I go back to the left, he said, left. Tony's got 200 ,000 in the bank. And he's got this big warehouse set up. He said, All right. Then we talked to Mike. Now, Mike, Isabella is a captain, right? So, Mike said, All right. He said, you were left to go out there. Just sit down with him and make sure that he has what he says he has.

50:34Don't tell anybody you're going. I said, Okay. So, the first thing is called Tony and tell him to send us airplane tickets. Because you know, wise guys are not spending their own money. So, the Bureau, you know, Tony gets us to plane tickets. He left his fly out there. And he takes us to the warehouse. And they got the whole operation going on.

51:07And left, he said, Okay. So, we go back, report back to Mike. And he said, Okay. He says, Now, here's the story. Tony's been with the bananas for 10 years. He's been an associate of ours for 10 years. Because that's what he has to tell. He's been an associate of Chicago and Milwaukee. Because if they just say, Donnie just met this guy, they're going to say, Well, not what you, you didn't claim them. So, we'll take the whole business. So, here's the way it works. Now we go to Arkansas, the area. The Kentucky area to bananas. Right? God, my name is Bobby Badhart. You know what? He called them Bobby Badhart.

51:58Because he had a bad heart. A bad heart. Easy, right? So, he goes.

52:08And Bobby Badhart now has, of course, Chicago. Right? And tells Chicago that, Hey, we got a guy that's been with us for 10 years. He settled now in Milwaukee. He's been in Milwaukee for a couple of years. And he wants to go into the business and he has machines and everything. And we'd like to have a sit down with Bell Astrayer, the boss of Milwaukee. Okay. Chicago now calls Bell Astrayer's consigliery and relates the whole story tour. So now we got to wait and see if you want to have the sit down. A week or so goes by, Chicago calls back and said, Okay. He'll have a meet with you guys. Who's coming out?

53:10Be lefty, Regario, and Donnie Brasco. Now lefties have made guys, so you know. So they say, Okay, come on out. Check into this hotel and wait for a phone call. So me and lefty fly out. Check into this hotel.

53:35And we wait about three or four days. It's hanging around over there. We can't go anywhere because we can't miss the phone call. So we get the phone call. It's okay. Come the Snugs restaurant. Such is that's a day, such is a time. It's Bell Astrayer's restaurant. He owns a hotel and it's a restaurant in his hotel. So me, lefty, and Donnie, the other undercover, we go there. And now if you know the mob, Joe, you don't get to sit down with a boss. Unless you're another boss. You know what I mean? Guys made guys that have just made guys and other families don't get to sit down with a boss. So now, who's there is Bell Astrayer with a boss.

54:33His under boss is Ciccliieri and his two sons who are both lawyers. Right? So we have a big spread. Why do you want to be here? Well, you know, Tony's been with us. Now, lefty's doing all the talking because he's the main guy. Tony's been with us for ten years. Him and Donnie. They did a lot of art theft together and stuff. They both been with us. And Tony thought he could get the business going with the machines and stuff.

55:28So after this whole dinner, probably about five or six hours, he said, okay, we'll get back to you. All right? So a couple of days later, he called, why should I have dinner at my house? A fucking boss is inviting us to dinner at his house. It doesn't happen. If you know the world of the mafia, gives us the address, me, lefty and Tony, and lefty's like, you got to know wise guys. Right? Lefty's like, we're going to the dinner at a mob boss's house at his house. He's like, you know, I mean, we know it's a big deal, but to a wise guy, it's a big fucking deal too. So we go to his house and he's right on the lake.

56:28He has a big table, you know, like you see in the movies and got the mates serving us. So he said, we'll go in partners, we'll be 50, 50 partners. Tony does all the work. You know, we'll tell you where to go to put your machines in. They'll take your machines. So now, what do we just do? We just married two mafia families together, bananas and the Bellas varies through Chicago. At first, marrying two mafia families to do business together. Being left to go back to New York, everything's going good. Tony's meeting with the sons, because that's who they said, you meet me with my sons. Right? After a few months, nothing.

57:34They stop me and with them.

57:38I don't know why. They won't take his calls, nothing.

57:47So I tell them, I said, I left it. They don't, they're not responding. What do you mean they're not responding? They're not responding. I said, they're not taking his calls anymore. He said, well, what do you do, try to, you know, I said, Tony, I said, lefty. This guy's not like that. Make a long story short. Tony had been a cop in the city outside of Milwaukee. After he got out of the Marine Corps, before he went into the Bureau. And somehow they found out there was a leak somewhere. But they don't tell, we find this out later that this is how they, they don't tell this to lefty. Which saved my ass, because I, I vouch for Tony.

58:44Right. Right.

58:52So we're trying to get in touch with Chicago. Chicago's not, you know, Chicago say, we don't know why they, why they stopped, you know, we don't have any idea. So that goes now, that's, I got that hanging on me. Right.

59:15So lefty sends me to Milwaukee, go, you know, go find out, go search for this guy and blah, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I come up with a story left that, you know, I found this car. It's in the parking lot. I mean, it's in the parking lot of the airport. Then when I went back, it was gone. So I go and they said, though, the cops told it, you know, it's all bullshit, of course. But I got to cover, you know, what happened to this guy. So now we got to go tell Mike Sebel, our captain, because, you know, our money source dried up. So we go sit down with Mike. And this is hard to believe, but, and he's ripping, right?

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1:01:42We're American companies, making American products with American workers in America's hometowns. We're local bottlers and manufacturers, operating in all 50 states. Employing more than 275 ,000 Americans in good paying jobs, delivering for the nation. Because we believe in the promise of America and the people who make it great. Learn more at wedeliverforamerica .org, paid for by the American Beverage Association. But he banned me from the Christmas party. Because you introduced him to the cop? Well, he didn't know he was a cop because the operation just shut down and the money stopped. He wasn't coming in anymore.

1:02:24And they don't tell you why. No. That's the best I can happen. I don't go to the Christmas party. Each crew has their own party. I'm saying I'm a... They don't suspect you at all? No. How do they not suspect you? How are they not questioning you? Well, I have been with them so many... I have been with them now, you know, over two years now. Right. And, you know, so... But I'm always on edge because I don't know why you aren't the Balistrarys telling... ...Rigereal. Unless they're too embarrassed. You know what I mean? Right. I don't know. To this day. Well, I mean, after we found out that... Yeah, if to this day I have no idea why they didn't tell them.

1:03:20And whatever happened in Tony. Oh, we just shut the operation down. They just shut it down. You know? So, I'm going on again. We're going on... ...nice cup. You want it? No, thank you. I got some swag coming for you. Yeah, yeah. Well, I got swag too. You know what I'm Jerry. But I mean, I got a lot of Donnie Brasco swag that I'm going to melt to you. All right. It was supposed to be at the hotel. It never made it. But this has to be hair raising. It is because now I'm like... And lefty said, you know, now he's... He's grilling me again about my relationship with Tony. Right. But I got to stick to the story, you know.

1:04:08Right. So...

1:04:14So, I kind of... Squirt things around with him. Because, you know, and Mike. So now what happens is that... At the time, Carmine Galenthe was the boss of the bananas. All right. And they killed Galenthe. They whack him. All right. Because there's just kind of a beef within the family. And one side didn't like Galenthe. So they whack him. Mike's a bell of now was associated with Galenthe. So they tell Mike. Mike. Either step down or we're going to whack you too. So he gives up his captainship and just becomes a regular soldier again. Right.

1:05:16So... One of the originators, when I say originators, instigators, whatever, is a guy by name of Sonny Blacknappletano. He was out in Brooklyn. So they put me in... Remember, we were with Mike Sibel, so they put me in lefty now with under Sonny Black. Sonny Black becomes a captain. They put me in lefty under Sonny Black out in Brooklyn. So that's who we report to every day. And you know, you have to check in with your captain every day. So every day, me and lefty would report out the motion lounge. It's on Graham and Withers Street in Brooklyn. Sonny's our new captain.

1:06:17So... And again, you know, the intelligence information I'm gathering is like, no other than anybody else can get, because you know, informants are going to give you all this stuff. And I'm meeting different people again. I'm meeting people from different families through these guys. So I'm rocking out there in Brooklyn under Sonny Blacknappletano. And I get another call.

1:06:58They want to... Headquarters wants to talk to you about what? Well, we got another cover operation going in Tampa, Florida. Yeah. We want to see if you can bring your bananas. I just... Hey, wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I just went through to send me a walkie.

1:07:26Well, Supervisor wants to talk to you. I knew the supervisor. Supervisor, good guy. So I call him. I said, Tony, what's up? He said, we got a nightclub.

1:07:42And it's pretty... You know, it's pretty good, but... We can't get into Santa Trappocanting. And maybe you know, maybe you can do the same thing you did in Milwaukee. I said, I don't know, man. I said, if I do it, number one, who's the undercover? Because they had two undercovers running a nightclub.

1:08:11And they said, well, one of them is an agent by name of Sound Mary Steve. I said, okay. I said, I know Steve. I did undercover work with him, too. I said, I got no problem with Steve. And they gave me the other guy. The other guy, I know, but I never worked with him. I said, but as long as Steve is involved, I'll see what I can do.

1:08:40But I don't know how long it's going to take. So you got to just let me think about this. Because I don't want to come up with... I'm not coming up with a story, hey, I got a call from a guy that I just fucking teed with. So I figured, okay. After a while, okay, here's what we'll do. We used to go to Miami a lot. When I say, well, I'm talking about me lefty, the wise guys, we'd fly to Miami for a long weekend. We had a hotel down there that put us on down the arm, right? Give us a sweet and stuff and stay for the weekend. So I said, okay, here's what we'll do. The next time we go to Miami, right, you guys go down there.

1:09:39And we'll... Whenever we go to a restaurant, I'll let you know what restaurant we're going to go to. And you guys just happen to be in a restaurant. And you...

1:09:55Steve's, I'm Mary, who was going by Chico. I said, Chico just happens to notice me and comes over to the table. Hey, Donnie, how you been? So it's like a bump, right? It's not like... So that's what we did. So we're out at this restaurant. We set that deal up and Chico comes over and Donnie, hey, I haven't seen you in years. How you doing? What are you doing down here? Well, we got a nightclub. You got a nightclub where? It's outside of Tampa, up in Tampa, Florida. No kidding. How long have you been down there? I don't know. Three, four years. What are you doing? And not that it's a nice club once you've come by.

1:10:46Now, again, you're talking about a nightclub. So everything is dollar signs. So I said, Left, you want to take a ride up one day? You said, Yeah. So when they leave, he says, You know these guys? I said, Well, I know Chico. I said, I don't know the other guy. I said, But, you know, Chico, he was a good thief. You know, I said, I haven't seen him in a while. I haven't seen him in like maybe five years. But he's always was, you know, he's always a good thief. So, all right. Let's take a ride up. So we take a ride up and it's a nice nightclub. It's on like five acres. They got tennis courts. We hang out.

1:11:38A lot of business, you know. It was open from... I don't know. Nine o 'clock, it was going to open all night. So, he said, Nice place. He said, We have to tell Sonny about it when we go back to Brooklyn. Okay. So we go back to Brooklyn and tell Sonny about it. Now, you know, now I'm like in my fourth year to these guys. So, we go back to Brooklyn and tell Sonny left. Hey, we ran out to... You want to down these old friends? Boy, they got a nice club there. You know, yeah. Well, maybe we'll go down and see it. So we go down and they see a lot of potential. But now we... It can't operate anything illegal because Santo Trafacante owns Florida.

1:12:50So now we got to go through the same routine. All right. The consigliary has the call Trafacante's guy and say, Hey, we got, you know, one of our guys has a club down there who hasn't been with us for, you know, that Chico hasn't been had to be with the bananas again for five, six years. Excuse me. So we go through that same routine. And finally, you know, this takes a while. It's not like overnight. So we go through the routine and he says, Okay, his guy says, All right. Santo will meet you at such a hotel, such a day. Get to meet another fucking boss of a Florida. Me and Sonny meet him. We actually, Oh, no.

1:14:01The first time we met him was at a restaurant in right outside of Tampa, that the Creek Fish and Village, I'm drawing a blank. But anyway, we meet him in a restaurant and actually it was Papas' restaurant. I was the name of it.

1:14:24And Sonny hadn't never met him before. But you know, he got through all the nice of these. And Sonny tells him, you know, we got a night club and we want to start running gambling out of it. You know, so he said, Okay, I'll meet you. I'll come up and look at it. I'll meet you. So I don't know if we met him the next week or next couple of weeks. We meet him again. Now this time it's in a hotel room. He comes to Sonny's hotel room and sets everything up, right? Forms the marriage. Again, this is the second time we married two fucking mafia families together. So he said, oh, he said, oh, he said, you want to do a casino night?

1:15:17Yeah. He's not going to send my two guys up. Okay. A couple of days later, two guys come up from Miami.

1:15:31Card sharks. I sat in a hotel with these room guys at Joe. And he were marking all the decks of cards. I could not, after they get done, I had no idea.

1:15:51How they marked these cards. They were for Blackjack and stuff, right?

1:16:00We had Crap Stables. The dice were fixed. Everything was, you know, so we set the club up.

1:16:13And we're advertising casino night for the Veterans of Farm War. We even had a certificate and everything, right?

1:16:28We're paying off somebody in the Sharers Department to protect us. Well, we got the game going and doing pretty good, doing pretty good. And it places jammed. So what happens is that all the sons are not going to door one of the doorments. He comes to me and says, Donnie, he says, a bunch of Sharers deputies outside. Whoa. So right away I get on the phone. I can't get our contact in the Sharers Department. He's not answering his phone. And then we had just paid him that day. All right. So I said, I clear all the money off the table. So we get all the money off the tables and put chips back on the tables.

1:17:32So I let him in. Because we had the certificate, we had everything. And what we had done was every so often we collect the money and we stash it in the furnace room. All right. There was a lot of money stashed. What we had was an old time one arm banded. All right. The thing had to be a hundred years old. Nobody ever put money in it. It was just there. So they come in and they stay. They don't see any money. One of the deputies puts it, I don't know, nickel and dime. Pulse a handle. What do you think happens? You fucking wins. You're running a gambling operation. Said nobody's ever played that thing, right?

1:18:27Well, they wrecked the joint. We all get arrested. Why did he get arrested? I don't understand. It was a gambling charge. They arrest us. But why because of the one arm banded? Because they won and they said that that was gambling. Oh. Nobody even knew there was any money or anything. It was just there as a decoration. Oh, boy. You know, it was an antique. So they just use those, excuse. Yeah, just use an excuse because we were the mafia guineas from New York. That's what we were. Right. So they throw us in a can. And just for the one arm banded. Yeah. They never find the money. We didn't put somebody dead.

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1:21:45There was over 30 grand that I know that was stashed. So they swiped that? I don't know. Somebody did. Probably somebody did. Yeah. So we had traffic aunties lawyer. He gave us out on the who it was. So we call the lawyer and he gets us out of the can the next day. And now I'm in another fucking bind because now we got busted. And we did, you know, we were paying the guy off. And what happened to the guy you paid off? He committed suicide later on. Oh, yeah. Convenient. Yeah. Yeah. Did he really commit suicide? Yeah, he did. Really. Because when he got us a peanut. Oh, he knew there were comments wrong.

1:22:35Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. So that kind of screwed that thing up. And, uh, uh, but, you know, you know, sunny new that, uh, uh, that we were paying the guy off and everything. So, you know, it was just a, uh, has a doing business as a mob. You know, but when we got back to the club, like I say, the, the statue was gone with the money. Somebody took it. Uh, and so we go back to New York. And again, now, there's another beef in the, in the Bonano family. Because after they whack a lenty, uh, they make, uh, rusted, we're still need a boss at a family, but rusted, he's in a can. He's in a can. So sunny black is, is running a family along with, uh, uh, another capo.

1:23:32And then there's a sec infaction at a Bonano family. And they're running, they're running their faction. All right. Now there's a faction of three capos that are against rusty wristelling. And they're against sunny and the other capos. So now there's more friction in the Bonanos. So, uh, in order to solve this, they, uh, uh, they call a sit down. Sunny black, the guys on his side, the capos on his side, uh, call a sit down for the other three capos. To straighten this out. Well, the deal is, when these other three capos get to the sit down, they're going to whack them. Oh, yeah. They're going to whack them.

1:24:31So, uh, I was supposed to be in on that, but they cut, they cut me out at the last minute. I was supposed to be in on the head, but they cut me out the last minute. And then they, I was supposed to be on the cleanup crew, but they cut me out at the, you know, at, uh, at the last minute. Why they cut you out? I don't know. I don't know, uh, because I wasn't told until after, you know, so they whack these three guys. And, uh, the next day, Sunny calls me into the club. And he, he said, uh, Bruno never showed up. That was the fourth guy that was, uh, one of the capos in Delacado, his son, uh, I was supposed to come and he didn't show.

1:25:23So he gave me the contract to kill him. So he said, we think he's in Florida. So he sends me to Florida to look for him, but he wasn't, he wasn't down there. And the deal was that, uh, if I did find them, I'd call the FBI and they would snatch him and we'd stage a hit or if they found them, you know, we'd do the reverse, they'd, they'd stage a hit, but we never found them. So now, um, all this time, I never carried a gun. I never carried a gun in this whole operation. Really? Yeah. Was that unusual? No, because these guys don't carry guns on a daily basis, the mob, you know, mafia guys. They don't?

1:26:07No, no, because they're always getting roused by the cops. Got it. All right. The only time they carry a piece is when they're going to go, go do some work. Right. You know, um, so did you see guys get killed? No. I don't believe you.

1:26:27So, um, that was the sneakiest no of our, my life. So we, we, uh, let's move on. Yeah, let's move on. We, um, um, maybe lose my trade at thought, no. So, um, we're in the club. So I get the contract for Bruno, but obviously I can't find them. You can't find them. Did anybody ever find them? Yeah. Yeah. So what happens is we're in a club one day in the motion lounge and, uh, sunny gets a phone call and he says, he said, uh, um, uh, we think Bruno. Bruno's at such a place. And, uh, but it was, it wasn't, it was bad info. It was bad info. So I was asked, well, what would you do if he was there? I said, I hate to say, but Bruno probably was a dead man.

1:27:32And, well, how could you say that? Well, because when you're given a contract, it's your responsibility that a guy gets killed. And if you refuse the contract, you get killed. You're gonna, you're gonna get whacked. So would you have had to do it? Well, if you found them, I could have given it to someone, told one of the other guys to do it, but it's my responsibility. Right. You know, and my whole look, my mindset in undercover is I'm not dying for a gangster. Right. I'll die for a citizen. I'll take a beaten for a citizen, but not for a gangster. You know, that's, he's gonna get whacked either way.

1:28:19He's gonna go out either way. Right. So I'll take my shot with the government. Right. Uh, it's, it's, you know, it's not, it's not, you know, a lot of people can't deal with that, but I get it. You know, uh, so it's the job. That's the job. You know, I mean, look, I'm there to put you in jail. I'm not there to get you killed. I'm not there to kill you. I'm there to arrest you and try to, you know, hopefully send you to jail, but I'm not gonna die for you. Right. I'm not putting, you know, so as a situation when you're back against the wall. Exactly. Got it. So, uh, but I, but you know, that didn't happen.

1:29:06Did they ever find them? Yeah. Yeah. They found them, um, they found them actually, I don't know if it was a year or so later. I'm not too sure. But yeah, he eventually got arrested. Yeah. He was a coke, you know, he used coke. So, um, sloppy. Yeah. So now, you know, now with the war going on, the Bureau decides that, uh, we got to, we got to shut the operation down. Uh, so those hits took place on May 5th. So and prior to that, I had to sit down with Sonny Black and he said, Donnie, he said, uh, the books on them, the books on them off here are opening up in December. He said, and I already proposed you for membership into the Benano family.

1:29:59So, you're going to, you're going to get inducted into the family in December. He said, so, uh, I congratulated him, thanked him, kissed him on both cheeks, you know. Um, so you're going to be a made guy? Yeah, I was going to be a made guy. Yeah. How attractive is that life when you're in it? Oh, forget it. Must be so much fun. Yeah. Part of the problem, right? So no, waking up every day to think is today, the day I go to jail or today, I get whacked. No, I didn't, Joe, I didn't find it that fucking attract. Uh, uh, I'm, I'm, I mean, it's all right. They flashed the cash, you know, uh, you walk into a restaurant.

1:30:46They know who you are. You know, you get the, you get the VIP treatment, you get the VIP treatment. You don't order off the menu, you know, uh, you know, there's perks. There's those perks, but, you know, I didn't want to wake up every day saying, do I go to jail or do I get whacked today? That's, that's their mindset. It's crazy. It is crazy. It's crazy. But I've talked to guys in that life and they love it. Yeah. That's what's crazy about it. Yeah. Yeah. But they could, I, I know guys that, uh, became, uh, informants and, you know, uh, they wish they could go back. I see. Yeah. Well, you know, uh, no, I, I, I, I, I, I, I, I want to want to, you know, but that is a problem with guys who do undercover work, right?

1:31:35Yeah. Some of them, some of them fall in love with it. Yeah. They fall in love with the undercover aspect. And I think, I think the reason that, that I was successful in all my cases and that I'm still 98 % saying is, I didn't fall in love with it. And I grew up on the streets. You know what I'm saying? I mean, I grew up in that environment. And I was never attracted to it as a kid. Right. You know, right. Uh, did you ever run the risk of running into someone that you knew who knew you as Jo Pistone? Yeah. Did you see the movie? I did, but I don't remember. In the airport. Oh, that's right. With the lawyer.

1:32:25Oh, that's right. Yeah. That's what's really happening. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I saw, you know, we saw, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, made eye contact. And you know, I just clocked them. Oh, wow. And Sonny says, Donnie, why'd you do that? I said, Sonny, you guys just looking at my prick, what do I mean to do? Uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, but no, I never got attracted to the life, uh, other than as a job. And I, and I think another reason too, Joe, where a lot of undercovers go wrong, uh, is, they think they have to act like gangsters.

1:33:10They change their personalities. Right. And you can't be a, in a daytime and be at night. Right. I never changed my personality. Right. You know, uh, and a lot of undercovers are extroverts. And I'm the exception to that rule when I'm really an introvert. Uh, so you didn't need the attention. I didn't need the attention. I thrive on it. Uh, I don't, you know, uh, and I never changed my, my, my values like I, like I've mentioned before, I'm not a drinker. I never was a drinker. Uh, I worked in bars as bartender, you know, during, during my college years when I got out. Uh, and I wasn't going to become a drinker just because, you know, I was a drinker.

1:34:04Just because I was working on the cover, you know, I mean, I had guys say, Donnie, you never finish a beer because I can't, I only can drink half a bottle of beer. That's all I can drink. Probably lucky. Probably. Yeah. Or, you know, you never have more than one glass of wine. That's all like, that's all I can ingest is one glass. And she too many undercover stink all, all, all bad guys are drinkers all back, you know, Donnie, I never, I never do drugs. The coke is a real problem with guys who go undercover, right? Yeah. Cause they have to do it with everybody. Well, you know, they think they do, they think they do.

1:34:47I mean, I was in the, in a nightclub in Miami and the guy offers me coke and I slapped his hand, you know, fucking coke is all over the place. And I said, Donnie, everyone for me, that's shit. I said, I make money off of that. I don't put that stuff in my body. I go to the gym every day. Why would I, what would I do that shit? I said to me, it's a money maker. See, but too many young undercover stink. Oh, you know, I got a drink, right? You know, I got to do this. I got to do that. I got to act tough. Right. You don't have to. All you do is you have to be yourself. This episode is brought to you by Tacovas.

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1:36:16That's 10 % off at t -e -c -o -v -a -s dot com slash Rogan. See site for details to covas. Point your toes west. This episode is brought to you by visible. I want to let you in on something your current wireless carrier does not want you to know about visible because visible is the ultimate wireless hack. No confusing plans with surprise fees. No nonsense. Just fast speeds. Great coverage without the premium cost with visible. You get one line wireless with unlimited data powered by Verizon's network for $25 a month. Taxes and fees included. Seriously, $25 a month flat. What you see is what you pay.

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1:37:42And that was always my motto. You know, I never promised anything that I couldn't do. I never let anybody back me against the wall. You know, and I never gotten to anybody's face. To make myself look tough. You know, I mean, and that's where a lot of young under covers go wrong. That they think, you know, they watch too much television.

1:38:14The only time I, the only time I, I screwed up, I'll tell you, we're in Miami. Right. And I'm in another undercover's car.

1:38:33So it might have been, it might have been Checos. Checos, I don't remember. So there's the three bad guys, you know, and he had his car wired up.

1:38:53So we're right and by and it's a strip club. And it said, 2022 naked dancing girls. And I said, 44 nipples. That's all I said. Well, that came out of trial by the defensive turn. And I had to explain why I was such an expert on female nipples. That's just simple math. But what I'm saying is, you know, so somebody remembered you saying that? Well, it was on the tape on the tape. So they were trying to use that against me. That was, you know, my, it was my character was, you know, was questioned. But you know, it goes back to what I say is that I would not normally say that. Right. You know what I mean?

1:40:01Right, right, right. It was just a dumb statement, but it's always going to come back to bite you in the ass. Right, right. So yeah, you just got caught up in it. Yeah. Yeah. So what happened when they opened up the books? Well, they closed the case down. So I got them to, I got them to postpone it to July because we had one more meeting with Trappocanny set up. So I got them to postpone it until after that meeting. But I couldn't get them to wait until after I got inducted into the, into the family. They wouldn't wait. Wow. So they closed the operation July 27th. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And six years undercover, seven years of testifying.

1:40:52Wow. But I was lucky enough that after that case, I did, I did undercover work overseas. I did undercover work for Scotland yard. Oh, really? Yeah. What'd you do over there? I have one case.

1:41:09And so they had two Scotland yard detectives who I knew. I did a lot of work with their undercover unit. And so they were into the Chinese triads and there's stuff I can't disclose. But they were, they were manufacturing credit cards. And I won't say which companies. And you can bang them out for like 50 ,000 before, before they were discovered. Of course, they had, they had the numbers. Yeah, I knew a guy did that. And they had the legit numbers. Yeah. So it's back when they had like the carbons, right? Yeah. So Scotland, Scotland yard was, was trying to get to, to the location in another country.

1:42:04Right? Where they were actually everything was going down. So you're meeting with the number two triad in London. So they said, Hey, look, our guy from New York, Mafia guy from New York, who's the money man wants to have it. Sit down with you. He says, OK. So I fly over to London. And I noticed, got me, you know, guys, guys are going to have done other stuff with them. So they introduced me to the supervisor of the serious crime squad. He was the guy that was run in this case. So I would break just chops. You know, you can't, you don't carry guns or anything. You know, even the undercover's don't, they don't, they don't carry guns.

1:43:01So I, I'm sitting down with them. And I said, they, I said, I got my gun, but I didn't bring any bullets. You're any bullets? A guy goes, Apes, you can't capture. I said, I calm down. I'm just breaking your chops. Right. So he says to me, what are you wearing to this meeting? I said, I'm wearing slacks, sport coat and a shirt. He said, no, no, you got to wear a suit. I said, why do I have to wear suit? He said, because all these triad guys wear suits all the time. I said, what's that got to do with me? He said, no, no, you got to wear a suit. I said, well, I don't have a suit. I said, I'm telling you, I got slacks, a sport coat, dress shirts.

1:43:48That's what I'm wearing. So he turns the, he turns at the undercover guy from Scotland yard and turns around, opens a safe, pulls out money, says, go buy him a suit. I said, you're going to buy me a suit. He said, yeah, I said, what do I do with the suit when I'm done with it? He said, you keep it. I said, all right. So me and Graham, we go, I buy two suits, one for me and one for Graham. All right. So we go to the meeting and I'm wearing his suit. So there's me, the two Scotland yard guy on the cover guys and the triad. So now, before we go to the meeting, the supervisors tell me, look, you can't insult this guy.

1:44:43You got to be nice to him because he's the number two guy. So I said, hey, look, I said, I don't tell you how to run your serious crime squad. Don't tell me how to work undercover. I said, whatever you need, I'll get. I said, but don't tell me how to do it. So he's all nervous. So we're in a resort. They run at a big suite in a resort and they're next door. So they got the suite where we are. They got a wired audio video, right? So we go in and we're sitting there and we get through all the nice of these with the with the triad. And so the guy keeps fucking interrupting me. So finally I says, Hey, Chin, I said, why do your sentence is always starting to fucking middle of mine?

1:45:49And he looks at me and you can hear the dead silence, right? Then he says, Oh, Mr. Joe, I was going by Joe Marino at the time. He said, Oh, Mr. Joe, I apologize. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Graham tells me he says, when you said that, he thought the supervisor was going to have a heart attack. He said, he just blew it. He just blew it. It's it's over. After that, the guy gave us everything, the location of the factory, the, the home of Gilla. Do you feel like you have to do that to have his respect? Of course. I mean, I'm a mob guy. What do I know about the triads? Right. You know what I mean? Right.

1:46:37So if I would have let him kept stepping on me, he's going to be out of character. Yeah. Right. So yeah, that had to be fucking scary. Yeah. Well, the triads are, you know, scary. Yeah, they are. They are. And he was the number two. And I give these guys credit. I mean, he got to the number two guy, but they couldn't get, you know, so. But what a life. Yeah. How do you stay calm in these situations? I made Joe, I just stay who I am. You know, I get that's a thing in me. And, you know, you go out at when you have to. And if you don't, you know. If you don't, it probably seems off. Yeah. Yeah. So.

1:47:32But that's got to be just fucking nerve racking. I, you know, it is because what's nerve racking is you always have to be on. Right. You know, you can never be off. You never relax. No. I mean, and I mean, not many guys could say that they had sit down with two mafia bosses of different families. I used to stay at Sunday blocks apartment with him in Brooklyn. And this guy was running the banana family. He was one of the top capitals in the banana family. But the Sunday, I don't know how many hits he had on that. All these guys I dealt with don't forget all these guys that hits under the bill. These weren't these weren't the novice guys.

1:48:27I mean, they all had, you know, five, six, 10, 15 hits under the bill. You know, I mean, I got into a fight one time in a bar with Tony Mira. I mean, me and him against three guys. And I mean, he grabbed the beer bottle broken on the, broken on the, the bar and just pull right the guy's face. You know, now there's another guy, you know, I always brings up the young under covers. Is that this was probably the, the meanest guy I ever fucking met. I mean, flat out mean. You know, these other guys were mean, you know, because they killed people. But I mean, he was just a mean guy. The other guys, the other gangsters in the like him.

1:49:26I never saw him, I never saw him over in Dulls in any, in any liquor. Never, never. And, and he would stab you as soon as look at you. And after that incident, I told you when I had to go around with him, I always made sure I was an arm's length away from him. What was his name? Tony Mira. Oh, okay. Now, after it was over and they found out who I was, they killed Mira. His own nephew killed him actually. Because he introduced me to all the bananas. Wow. Yeah, lefty was on his way to get killed. But the FBI picked it up on the wire tab. So they snatched him, you know, surveillance team snatched him off the street.

1:50:15Aw. It killed sunny black sunny black got killed. Yeah, he got killed. So all the people that had let you in? Yeah, yeah. Tell you how sunny black got killed. You know, when you were in the wild. You talk about a gangster, right?

1:50:39When it came out that I was on the, you know, on the cover, in the beginning, the mob didn't believe I was on the, an FBI in the coverage. And they thought the FBI had kidnapped me and was trying to turn me. Because we, you know, we picked it up on the wire tabs and informants. But once, you know, once their lawyers told him, hey, he really isn't on the coverage anyway.

1:51:06So sunny black gets a call, you got to go to a sit down.

1:51:14Sorry, walks into the motion lounge. He had a diamond ring, takes off his diamond ring. All right. Takes his money out of his pocket.

1:51:30Takes his oldest keys, except his car keys, puts him on a counter. Says it a bartender. I just got cold to a sit down. I probably not coming back. Is that a gangster? Well, causes causes girlfriend. And this is how we found this out. Causes girlfriend and tells her the same thing. So what happens is that after they find his body and everything, this girlfriend calls the FBI. And she says, I like to have a meeting with Danny Brasco. And I said, why? I said, because I got something to tell him that that sunny black, she calls him sunny. She never calls sunny black. She says that sunny wanted me to give him a message.

1:52:42They said, okay. So they fly her down to DC and myself and the agents, the other agents go out to a restaurant. And she said, sunny wanted me to tell you, this is what happened. She said, this is what happened. And he got cold to a sit down and he goes into the motion lounge. Gives his ring, his money, his car keys to the bartender and tells a bartender. You know, I got cold to sit down and I probably not coming back. And then he calls me and he says her name. And he said, if I don't come back, he said, I want you to get in touch with Danny and tell him, I love them. And he was just better than we were.

1:53:46I don't hold anything against him. Wow. Is that a gangster? That's a guy that's living that life. Wow. Is that a gangster? That's crazy. How did that make you feel? Well, it kind of threw me for a loop. I mean, I had a good relationship with him. And like I said, I didn't want to see anybody get killed. You know, even mirror. I don't want to see him get killed. I mean, although I might have fucking done it myself. I'm used to that guy was just plain mean, but you know, that's not my job. My job is to gather evidence, bring it a trial and hopefully you're convicted. Right. But as sunny was sunny.

1:54:32You know, the difference to me and sunny, we could sit just like we're having this conversation. He wasn't 24, 7 gangster. You know what I mean? We break jobs, we break balls. Reguria was 27, 24, 7 gangster. I couldn't. I liked them because it was a great cook. I mean, he was bad. But I'll tell you, Joika cook. But you always, there was always something. You know, he was digging for you know, but like sunny, I look. I'm staying over at the main capo in the family. One of the two main capos in the family's apartment. He'd get up in the morning. We get I mean, I sleep on his couch. We get up in the morning.

1:55:35He'd go, here's a guy that's running up. But I know family. He'd go out to get coffee and hard rolls and butter and bring him back. I mean, him would sit there in our shorts and watch cartoons on television. I tell that to I tell that to the guys at the FBI and he's like, no, I'm telling you this. You know, and then he had a weight bench in his in his apartment. And back in the day, I used to lift pretty good. I mean, can't tell me now because I'm old now. But and I was I was pretty good at hand wrestling. I mean arm wrestling, right? And he could never beat me and he was built like you. I mean, he he was built, right?

1:56:29He's about your size and everything and big arms like you got. And but he could never beat me in arm wrestling. And I don't know what it was. If you know, so one day says me, Donnie, I'm going to beat you today in arm wrestling. I just sonny you never fucking beat me. And white today. I'm going to beat you. I said, OK. So the day goes on. So then he says, all right, let's go. Right?

1:57:00We're going. He spits in my eye.

1:57:06Boom. I said, I told you I beat you. I mean, that's the kind of guy he was. Right. You know, and I couldn't get P .O. I had him. Right. You know, but with with left a you couldn't you couldn't joke around like that. Right. You know, I mean, he was he was he was something else, man. He he couldn't stand he couldn't stand air conditioning. Really never. We'd be in the car. In Miami, the windows will be up. And he'd be smoking English ovals with no air condition. Jesus. And I'm dying. I'm dying. I put the wind it down. Donnie put that window up. I put I turned he turned the air conditioner off. He couldn't stand air condition.

1:58:01Why? I don't know. I don't know. He had cancer. Maybe it was just I don't know. Oh, he had cancer at the time while he's smoking with the windows rolled up. Yeah, but he had been cured of that, you know, he had been he had the testicle cancer years before. Yeah, eventually died a lung cancer. He used to smoke English ovals. We go in the hotel room and we always had a big sweet. So, you know, we didn't have different rooms. We'd have a sweet to do bedrooms.

1:58:35He turned the air off. He turned the air off. Turn the air off. So, you know, you have to do things to keep your sanity sometimes, right? So, we're down in Miami. So I figured it's not a bitch. I'm going to get you today, right? So I said, left, I got to go to the, I got to go to the head. I'm going up to the room. I go up, I take the cover off the air condition and I crank it where you could hang meat in there, right? And I put the cover back on and I put a thing in there. So, you know, if you move the thing back over here, we get upstairs. I mean, it was freezing. So we get in that room, we get in that sweet and he's like, Donnie, turn out your condition off.

1:59:28So I go over there and I said, left, I don't know, some's wrong. I don't know. He said, call the front desk. Get maintenance up here. So I pick up the phone, but I don't, I'm big believe I'm talking. I said, yeah, this is room so and so. Our air conditions broke. Could you send somebody up, but I'm not talking anybody because I want them. I want them to freeze as long as they could freeze. So he's after a while. Did you call it? I said, left. You saw me call call again. And I do the same thing. And now he's calling me, Joe, every name in the book. It's your fault. You did this. You broke it. I said, left.

2:00:12I need to do a thing. I don't know nothing about air condition. Right.

2:00:19So finally after about a half an hour, I do. Now I call and I say, Hey, our condition. So they sent somebody up and the guy takes a okay, there it is. But he blamed me, but you know, but that's how you keep your saying it these sometimes, you know, God. What is it like to experience all that and then see it in a movie? Like what is it like to see a guy like Johnny Depp play you in a movie? Oh God, what an experience that was. That was so weird. It was and you know, Johnny Depp. Yeah, I know. I love that. He's a great guy. I could cry. I'm telling you. I mean, what he's done for my family.

2:01:14Excuse me. That's all right. He's a sweetheart of a guy like genuine me. I've hung out with him a few times at the comments store. Yeah, I know. I'm very, very nice guy. I love him. He loved my wife.

2:01:39Yeah. He, um, he just flew in in January. That did it with my whole family. My grandkids.

2:02:04I flew in from Spain and my wife put a make the dinner.

2:02:25So the next day, he went and spent almost five hours with him.

2:02:41Yeah. And then she passed away a little while after that.

2:02:55Yeah, he's a great guy. It really is. I mean, he's genuine is genuine. It's odd. It's odd for a movie star. Yeah. I meet movie stars and I always have this wall up because I always feel like, okay, I'm just going to talk to some bullshit person. You know what I mean? I've met a bunch of them and they're not really there. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But when you meet one, then they're really there. It's amazing. You know, like you realize, oh, they're just human beings who are in this very unusual position. Yeah. Were they're incredibly famous and you know, they're famous in a very weird way. They're famous for pretending to be other people and acting and films.

2:03:36And you know, you know, you know, so well as, you know, a fucking pirate and whatever. I mean, or you we met in 96 and have stayed friends up until. Wow. Up until now. And he has stayed friends with my girls, my grandkids that he, you know, that he knew since they were, you know, yeah. And now as adults, I mean, he takes, he takes phone calls from my one granddaughter. Yeah. Yeah, he's a genuinely good guy before his trial was going on. I had a conversation with him for half an hour on the phone in Hawaii. I was in Hawaii, drinking margaritas and a lounge chair. And my friend Doug, Doug stand -hope calls me obviously.

2:04:43Hey, Johnny, what's a talk to you? And me and Johnny were on the phone for like a fucking half an hour. Yeah, I used to keep in contact with him when he was in trial. What a crazy trial. Yeah. But that trial showed you who he really is. Yeah, who he really is and who she really is to. Yeah. And it just shows you, you know, I didn't know her. You're lucky. I tell you a funny story is that, you know, Vanessa? No. This is one. Excuse me. Well, I mean, I met Johnny. He was first going out with Kate Moss and they all love my wife.

2:05:26So then he was one day calls me and he says, Hey, I'm going to be in Joe Stone crab. I'm going to be in Miami. He said, be just a Jones Stone crab. It's okay. So me and my wife go down there and just Johnny his father. His father's a great guy. No, it's father. No, it's father's a great guy too. Really good guy. And I had met his father during the shooting and the movie and everything, right? We hung out. So he introduced us to Vanessa, right? You know, you know, she is right. Who's that? Who's Vanessa? Pepper DC. She's the French singer. That's the one who his kids are by. Yes. Yeah.

2:06:21So now my wife wouldn't, when she ate, she would not touch anything. She had to eat with a knife and four, you know, a reala Madagon, right? Irish. So, you know, you had Joe Stone crab. What are you going to do? You know, you had a break and I touched him. So Vanessa says, I think you don't like it. She's all I like him, but I don't. I don't like the touch. She broke all the claws, everything took all the meat out. So my wife could eat it. What a fork. I'd say, don't you could do that. You know, you could get somebody to, you know, but how long did you know him before he played you in the movie?

2:07:17I didn't. You didn't know him at all? No, I mean, I'd you get to meet him before he played you? Oh, yeah, yeah, we met. I guess we met maybe three or four months before we start shooting. Did you want to talk to you about the life? Yeah, I spent time with him and what's amazing about him? Joe was in. He just, it's like a sponge, you know, like we would just go out, go to dinner, go to lunch, hang out. And the next thing you know, he's talking like me. He has the same rhythms. Every once in a while I clear my throat. He's clear. He was walking. We were on set one day. My mother happened to be on set.

2:08:02And Johnny's walking away and she's calling me. Wow, because the way he wanted the way he had a little gimp. Yeah, I mean, he's just amazing, you know, and he doesn't like prod your about stuff. He just absorbs it. Yeah, yeah, he's something. But I've stayed in touch. I stayed friends with the Chris E. sister. Now I've seen the whole family basically. How strange was it to watch the finished product to watch this version of your life of your story? Yeah, it was. Well, now for you and your audiences, I just want to know in that movie, I never slept my wife in real life. Why they had that in there?

2:08:53Ask the director. Tells motherfuckers. Asked because I wasn't in the script. Oh, Jesus Christ. Ask the director. I almost went. I went bullshit. Yeah. When I when I said, and you know, it's funny because Johnny used to pick me up every morning to go to work. All right. And here's a kind of guy. I take kind of guy. Yeah. We stopped at a bodega and he'd run in and get get the coffee and hard rolls. I said, I go, no, I'll go in. I mean, I mean, you know, to get to just a regular guy. Yeah. And I that day was kind of like, wasn't himself on the right in. And then I sort of rehearsed in that scene.

2:09:43I went, I went, I went ballistic, man. I went ballistic. But, you know, you know, you know, the directors, the captain of that ship, you know, they always have to do something like that. Yeah. They always have to add some bullshit that didn't really happen. It drives me nuts. Yeah. So, but what are you going to do? Yeah. So, how, after the case is closed, what is life like for you? Like, how do you, I mean, you had to be worried about your life. Yeah. Well, what happened is once they found out the commission put a $500 ,000 contract on me. And the New York officer, the FBI went to every boss and told them they better not think of, you know, trying to cash in on that.

2:10:40You know, so I was working out of Washington, out of Quantico and family's move. I think we got like five or six moves since then, you know, you try to back everything. Right. The bureau was good about that.

2:11:05But, you know, what, what's in the back of your mind is, is not the, the legitimate, legitimate gangster, you know, it's some cowboy that thinks, hey, you know, got it. Yeah. There's not only Nebraska, you know, if I take him out, we're in which and I don't think anybody was going to pay anybody 500 ,000. You think the mob is, they don't use their old money for, you know, for squat. So, yeah, but that's the only thing that you worry about is, you know, some cowboy, you know, how long was it before you stopped worrying about that? Well, you never really do. I mean, you know, even to this day. Yeah.

2:11:55Yeah. You know, because there's always somebody that thinks they're, you know, they're going to be famous about doing something. Right. You know that. Right. Right. So, but it was, it was more prevalent back in the, you know, back in the day. You know, as it's in the most of my guys now are, I don't know any of them that are alive, actually. Did you keep in touch with any of those guys? No. No, no. My whole thing and undercover Joe was, I never arrested anybody that I worked against. My whole thing was, I did the undercover. You make the arrest. I'll see him in court. I'll see him in court. Yeah.

2:12:52Yeah. It would funny. We know you always sit down with the after cases over. You sit down with the, the profilers and everything and they say, well, we think the sky will turn this guy. Not one of my guys, when I say my guys, ever became an affluent. Really? Never. Wow.

2:13:22The, uh, one of the prosecutors in Milwaukee. He said, he said, I think we should go talk to a Gerio. I said, you fuck it crazy. I said, you walking there and mentioning my name, he'll go crazy. He said exactly what happened. Exactly what happened. Yeah. They, he did 15. He did 15. Never cracked. The only reason they let him out was, he had, they found out he had, I don't know if it was gum cancer or whatever. And then he had one lung taken out and then he had cancer in the other lung. So he had like three or four months to live. So he was such a pain in the ass and for the department of corrections at the, they let him out.

2:14:22He died at home. Yeah. But he didn't crack or sunny. Sonny had a shot. He said, no, none of them, none of them. They tried to turn all of them. Yeah. They all went to the can. They all did like 15, 20 years. Yeah.

2:14:47Wild wild is right. I mean, now, as soon as they, as soon as they put the last click on the handcuffs, they're old. They all want to talk. Right now. Yeah. Now. I mean, they all, they all got hits on it or belt, but as soon as they put those cushion on them, you know, some of the guys they do their time, but eventually they turn none of those guys became snitches. What do you think happened to this, the culture of the mob where these guys started? Snitching. They didn't want to do the time. I mean, some of them did time. Some of them did seven, eight years, you know, but then I think when they still, when they kept getting beat over the head, you know, they figured out what good is.

2:15:31And you know what? The culture and the mob has changed to.

2:15:38I found nearly end. And these guys then, to the old timers, this was like their life, you know, they were really committed to it. It was the younger guys. It's, it's a me generation, just like normal citizens. They want it now. Right. They don't want to, I mean, I don't know. Like the old timers, they could, they could cultivate politicians, they could cultivate law enforcement. These guys today, you know, they can't cultivate politicians and judges like the old timers did. You know, and drugs, drugs is a big, big downfall of the mob because now the guys start, some of them start using it. But it's also, you can't keep secrets anymore.

2:16:36Zoni seekers, one guy's alive. Yeah, especially with cell phones, internet, and that surveillance surveillance is so easy now. Everything you do is surveilled every phone call. You're on camera all day long. I read a, I read somewhere or heard, where the average individual is on the camera over 500 times a day. Just walking around, wherever you go. And then your phone's listening to everything. Everything. Yeah, everybody has a phone. Everybody. Yeah, everybody. Today, and that's what's tough and undercover today is building your legend because it's hard to do 100 % backstop. Right. How can you, the internet, also Google image search, yeah, put your face up there.

2:17:25Oh, that's not good. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So I don't know, I mean, how much of the mob even exists now? It's still there, but, you know, they don't control what they did. They don't control every label, you know, when I was in it, they controlled everything. I mean, they controlled unions, they controlled every bit of Vegas, Vegas, they can, they controlled every bit of commodity that ran. In fact, when I was in it, they still had the skim out of Vegas and Bell Astrary had offered me with lefty. He had offered me the job of running the skim from there to what Kansas City. Wow. Yeah.

2:18:23Yeah. I mean, that's how tight I was with the bedanoes that, you know, that was before the thing went south, you know, that's so crazy that you got in that deep. Well, you the deepest that anybody had ever infiltrated the mob. Yeah. And everybody else that that went in, you know, they had in full, they had in their form. I had no informant. You just made your way in slowly. Yeah. Wow. And I wasn't, I wasn't a mark. You know, where I didn't have all this money. Right. You know what I mean? Right where they could exploit you. Yeah. Right. So, you know, crazy life, Joe. Yeah, it was. When you look back on it now, does it seem real must seem insane?

2:19:14Well, you know, sometimes I think I can't believe I did that. Right. That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and then other times that, you know, I say as deep as I got, I could have done more. Like how? Well, I mean, if I, if I would have got made, right, right, right. Do you wish they had gotten you made? Only because I had spent so much time, I spent six years, you know, and then the capitol for getting inducted and not only that, think of the feather and the capitol FBI. Right. Yeah. The mafia inducted one of our own, you know, I mean, that would have really kicked their eyes. Yeah. But, you know, it's funny that you think back and that's the thing that you wish.

2:20:08Yeah. You know, it's kind of crazy. Yeah, but still I know. I mean, you know, it's like, it's the ultimate fuck you. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, you fuck. I mean, I, we pretty much decimated them anyway. Yeah. You know, but it is kind of crazy when you think about the chokehold that the mob had. And that's nothing, nothing moved in this country without them getting the cut of it. Wow. It's crazy. All right. Did that all come about because of prohibition? Is that what it all started? Is that when they really get it, got a stranglehold in this country? Yeah. Yeah. And that crazy pretty much. Yeah.

2:20:48Because that's exactly what's happening right now with the cartels. Yeah. It's the same fucking thing. Yeah. And it's like, we never learn. No. Yeah. It's history repeats itself, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, I think our problem is we don't, we don't study our enemy. Remember, remember what I said before it? Any anybody I went against, I always knew, I always knew what they were. I wanted to know your structure. I want to know how you treated each other. I want to know all the crimes you're involved in. I want to know if you have violent yard and who your violence is against. You know, I want to know your history.

2:21:44How you became what you are as far as a criminal organization. And we don't do that. I mean, I'm talking about as a whole, you know, you know, I don't want to get into politics, but. You know, you got to study your enemy. You got to know your enemy, the art of war, right? Yes. And the art of war. And I tell all my, and then the undercover class, you got to read that book, the art of war. Because it was written thousands of years ago, but it's, it'll serve you today. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy when you think that. You don't change that much over time. No human nature is still the same. And the same strategies apply.

2:22:43Yeah. Yeah. It's nuts. And, you know, and like I said before, the only thing that's changed and undercover is building your legend because of the internet. Right. Nothing else has changed. Now it's kind of possible. You ingratiate yourself the same way. Yeah. You know, you do all that shit the same way. Well, especially if someone had any kind of social media before they got in the bureau. Yeah. Or you become cop. Mm -hmm. Yeah. I mean, everybody's kind of rounded on themselves. Yeah. Yeah. It's nuts. Yeah. But. But there's other ways they catch people now. Obviously. With all the surveillance.

2:23:26Do you make a bunch of notes? No, I just wanted to make sure you covered everything. I just wanted to mention my grandkids set me up on Instagram. And they said, make sure you're much of the, they run it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I joke forget it. I just about can turn my phone on me. I was with you and the real Donnie Brasco. And then a cameo page. You have a cameo page where you send people cameos? Jopas Stone. You just go in the Jopas Stone. Yeah. The real Donnie Brasco. How do you spend your time these days? There it is. The real Donnie Brasco. Yeah. That's that's from January Joe when he's when he flew in for the dinner.

2:24:34Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm kind of. Right now I'm right now. I got another book right on the bananas. And I spent time with. I was helping out with that Southern California gang conference I mentioned. It's really it's you know, like I said, I've been with them for 14 years. I actually been doing it 12 one year COVID and one year I was sick. And these guys are these coppers that run it. They all do it on their own time. There's no administrative nobody gets paid. Really? Nobody gets paid. They do it all on their own time. And the conference usually gets between 7 and 800 people at each conference.

2:25:38And like I say, it's held once a year. It's held in San Diego, but it's the Southern California gang conference. And if anybody's interested, you have to be a you have to be a police officer or in law enforcement, you can be department of corrections. They're their email is is a SCGC dot inquiry at gmail .com. Go on and get information about it. Or if they want to attend it, you know, that's that's how you can sign up. Okay. And they have great speakers every year.

2:26:20And yeah, I know, I mean, and some of my merchandise, he can see I have a shirt here. It's Southern California gang conference. Donnie Brasco. We sell these shirts. I give 100 % to the to the organization. I don't I don't keep any and the mugs we sell and stuff. I don't know my books. I sign books there and I give all the money to the organization. I don't I don't take anything either because he's a police officer. Don't take any. You know, their time is donated. So yeah, it's. You know, who's there to help you when you're when you're spouser? You know, one or the other dies and a line of duty.

2:27:16So yeah. So you were telling me before the show that all that money gets donated to the spouses of people who were killed in a lot of duty. Yes, sir. Yeah. Yeah. You know, help them get started after. That's awesome. Yeah. And it's great conference. Like I said, they get between seven and eight hundred, either a police officer or department of corrections, you know, anybody that's in law enforcement is eligible to attend it. And it's a week since San Diego. Yeah. Well, Joe, thank you very much for being here. I really appreciate it. Hey, what a crazy life you've had. Thank you. Thank you. I'm really excited to get the invite and my my grantees were, whoa, you're going on Joe Rogan's.

2:28:03They all love you, man. Well, tell me. Thank you. I love you. Yeah. And thank you for being here. Well, my pleasure. It was my pleasure to thank you very much. Thanks, part. Thank you. All right. All right.