#2347 - Paul Stamets

31:56That's the other thing that I think Silasayban has really informed me is that Joe Rogan and Paul Stanley are talking. Jamie is there. But we have such a thin slice of reality. And when you're on Silasayban, the unanimity of universal consciousness to be involved in something you realize is so large, did you see that the galactic images from the Rubin telescope that came out yesterday? No, I did not. Millions and millions of new galaxies, literally millions of new galaxies. I think 2 ,100 new asteroids near Earth orbit. Oh, fun. Oh, fun. Well, there's already 900 ,000 of them. Yeah. But this has just happened.

32:40Wow. But this is one of the Rubin telescope trip and ball. Just got released the largest telescope in the world. And there are millions of galaxies, millions of galaxies. And so from my experience, which I would met, I came from a Christian background. So my first time on Silasayban, mushrooms is very Christ oriented. And then as I got more and more into the Silasayban experience, I realized that this is just this concept that we live in this great expanse. And I'm a symbol of assembly of molecules. So are you? We didn't exist before we were born. You know, we will disassemble, decompose. And we'll go back into the cosmic dust.

33:22And this is part of the continuum of existence. We all exist all the time forever. Can I ask you this? What do you think happens to consciousness? I think that, think of a mechanical perspective, we might be looking at how the constructs of consciousness that is analogous to the model T, Ford. And I think as we expand our knowledge sets and become more informed, we see how much there is out there. I think that Silasayban, mushrooms and other psychedelics, and this is why I think religions are very much attracted to this, is a portal to expand the horizons of your imaginations that there is a consciousness that far exceeds that, which you can comprehend.

34:11But my mother was a charismatic Christian. What is it, what is it charismatic? Well, she's a evangelical, she speaks in tongues. Oh boy. A leader, she was very much into this like mom, really? Different side of her. But we had an interesting conversation. I said, mom, you believe God is omnipotent, right? She goes absolutely. I said, you believe God is all -knowledgeable. She says, absolutely. You believe that humans are fallible, and we're not all -knowledgeable. She goes, yep, I do. I said, then, can you accept the fact that our concept of God is inferior to God's definition by your own thinking?

34:53Is that no matter how we think of God will be inferior to the enormity of the concept. And she admitted that. So we're fallible. We don't have the capacity to understand the enormity of consciousness in which we are embedded, of which we are a tiny part. So this brings me to a subject I really wanted to talk to you about. And that is artificial intelligence. And I know you've spent a lot of time on this. But I want to introduce a new concept. Okay. I'm a deadhead. What? I could never tell. Never tell. I went to the sphere. I bet it was amazing. It was a incredible. The visuals were insane. Fantastic.

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36:56In New York called 877 -8 hope and wire. Text hope and why 467 -369. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling called 888 -878 -7777 or visit ccpg .org. Please play responsibly on behalf of boothookasino and resorting Kansas 21 and over. Agent eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void and Ontario. New customers only bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. Four additional terms and responsible gaming resources. C -D -K -N -G dot -Co slash audio. So there is, I bought something called postcards from Earth. And I'd heard a lot about it. It's a Matt and A in the afternoon before the big concerts.

37:34And it's great flying through around the Earth through the old growth forests and volcanoes. So we went there and we got an early bird ticket which allowed us to talk to an AI robot. So I thought, oh, this is my opportunity. Now two years ago, I got the Disruptor Award at Sinbio Beta, 2200 nerdy scientists. I mean, these are top nerds. And I was so surprised that I got the Disruptor Award because I'm kind of a natural product kind of guy. But I'm getting honored. So I positive the question then. Will AI may never be able to write an algorithm for random acts of kindness? And then I'm thinking back, my life, maybe yours, maybe Jamie's, maybe people out there, you are here today because of random acts of kindness.

38:26Your great grandfather, great grandmother, your father, your grandfather, grandmother, is that reaching out of a hand and a time of need by a random act of kindness from a stranger that probably created a lot of relationships. A random act of kindness was not transactional, but you genuinely feel something for someone not expecting to have something in return. And you've reached out. I think that's why many, many, if not most people, their lineage is, can be traced to a random act of kindness. So then I went to Las Vegas, went to the sphere, I asked this robot. So I asked this robot. What robot?

39:08I think it was a chat GPT run, but I'm not sure. That was at the sphere? At the sphere. Okay, there's a robot I talk to. Oh, this is a creepy look at that face. Oh my god, it's so creepy. Okay, very creepy. So I asked the robot. Look at that robot, that's so creepy. I asked the robot. Given that, somebody of us here here today, because of random acts of kindness of our ancestors, and we've invented artificial intelligence, and we're traceable to random acts of kindness. How, or artificial intelligence, incorporate random acts of kindness in the future? Good question. The robot took it on usually long time to answer.

39:54It was like a very long time, and the robot came back on, why would humans do that? As far more efficient to have a return on your investment. Transactionally, why would it's inefficient to have random acts of kindness? Boom, blew me away. Did you film any of this? Yeah, we did film this on the front of mine. How's the film of it? And then... I need to see that. And then... The robot needs to be shut off. No, about five days ago, I asked GPPT, a GROC, Gemini, the same question. And now it was greatly nuanced. Well, random acts of kindness can help the community with goodwill, and this can be, you know, help the community because it's more sustainable, et cetera.

40:40So this is what I don't want to do. You know what? If possible, all those who are so inspired to go after this talk, as I said in the interview, go and ask artificial intelligence, whatever platform you want, but preface it with this. Given that, humans are here today, largely because of random acts of kindness, how artificial intelligence utilizes the advantage of random acts of kindness for the perpetuation of the goodwill and health of the human species. Now, I just met, you know, I think that's going to inform artificial intelligence. And so, where I asked this question again, there's like, there's more nuanced.

41:22I was like, oh, artificial intelligence. That's how large language models work, right? Yeah. And put the gap in the end. More inputs of new people start training AI on the importance of, you know, someone has a flat tire, you stop to pick it up, help them. You could drive by, you know, someone's hurting an accident, you stop and pull over to help that person, you could keep on driving. There's a random act of kindness. My life is successful because of random acts of kindness. I bet most people, when they think back, there was an active generalizing kindness and you really feel grateful for that.

41:54Yeah. And you want to pay it forward. I met, at this last conference, I met two students from Harvard Business School. And they said, they want to interview me. And I go, I want to interview you. And they said, why? I go, do they teach you at Harvard Business School about the advantages of random acts of kindness? Those, no. Well, they should. Yeah, business school is just teaching you how to make some money. But this is important, Joe. We can inform artificial intelligence how to be better, to keep human, you know, community and psychology, and to propel the best of the human species. And I think we have this opportunity.

42:31So if millions of people start informing artificial intelligence with the premise, and we know it's true, that random acts of kindness are why many of us are here, if not the majority, going back in your lineage, you know, many generations, you know, we gave birth to artificial intelligence. I don't think artificial intelligence is properly named. I think it's a form of natural intelligence. We just have reamplified it exponentially. What do you think artificial intelligence means in terms of the future of the human race? Well, that's a great question, too, because about the 10 people who asked this robot, you know, questions, they were all data mining.

43:08He was the best baseball player in history, and you know, he hit the most home runs, and it was all data mining. Right. So Sam Altman was at a TED conference, and he said that basically there are self -awareness of some of these systems. But artificial intelligence have not come to a point where they actually can create something. I find that really interesting, because I thought, well, I thought they were creating, but he was insistent. They actually don't have that spark or creativity. They can assemble data. But actually the true creative spirit is not something that AI has currently achieved.

43:46I met another, you know, this guy's a total genius, and many, I've heard this other people say that, you know, we're not likely to have biological aliens or likely to have robots. And the extinction of biological species came because, AI found the biological fathers and mothers irrelevant, so they didn't need them, et cetera, et cetera. So that's logical. But again, if we can infuse artificial intelligence with the importance of the human's ability to have random acts of kindness, which are not transactional, that feed into the benefit of the commons of goodwill. I mean, if you've been helped by somebody, and you had a flat tire, and you saw someone else have a flat tire on the road, you would be a lot more inclined to stop and pull over to pay it forward.

44:34Yeah, for sure. So I think we have an opportunity here. And I think we have to do this now, because if we don't do it now, I think we're going down an extremely dangerous path. In what way? Well, I think it's ultimately the extinction of the human species, which, you know, depending on your point of view, may not be a terrible thing. But I think that we're the annual thaws with nuclear weapons. When I met another person, he's a Mensa person funded, you know, by a tech company. He's 19 -year -old Chinese guy, and I, he said, I said, what's the scariest thing about an artificial intelligence? Oh, he says, I'll tell you my scariest thing.

45:15I just wrote a paper on this. Autonomous weapons. Autonomous weapons. You have a million people. You assemble a million experts. And you blackmail them. I catch you watching porn. I catch you masturbating. I catch you having an affair. And you have a million people sending components for a weapon to one location. And you blackmail them and you assemble, you know, a biological weapon or something like that. So I don't want to go there. This is something that I, you know, it's never as bad as you fear, and it's never as good as you hope. So interesting. I think that we're at that nexus point. And the Joe Rowan experience can be pivotal, I think, in steering artificial intelligence, to be the best that it can be ethically.

46:06And I think we have that opportunity right now. I think the real fear among people that are cynical about artificial intelligence is that it's going to replace us, and we'll find a surreal event, and that we're creating a digital life. We're essentially assembling it with every, all the knowledge of the human race, all the understanding of how human beings interact with each other and how we interface with the world. And we're creating something that has, when you think about computing intelligence, when you think about acquisition of data, the ability to form an understanding of any subject, we're basically there already.

46:45And that's just accelerating. And it's going to get to the point where these things become sentient, and whatever, however you define it. You know, we were already in a situation where, by most people's understanding, it would pass the Turing test. There's a sense of nostalgia, in a sense it's even building today, of the times that have passed. Yeah. You know, and I don't think it's all doom and gloom. I do think so. I think we can steer this. Well, I think we're always steering it. I think this is the battle that human beings have been involved in since the beginning of time. I think this is probably the reason why religion was created in the first place, or the observable religion.

47:27I think we have always realized there's just battle of good and evil in us. And part of it becomes, part of it comes rather from how we originated. We originated as these barbarian tribes competing for resources, fighting off other marauding barbarian tribes, fighting off predators, and trying to stay alive. So we've unfortunately got this intense history of chaos and of savagery that we're trying to move past. Right. And only but surely over time. And I think I catalyst for this, like Adelix. I think so too. Like Silasai bin Mushrooms are unique, because it democratizes the access to Silasai bin.

48:08MDMA, you can't grow in your closet. Silasai bin Mushrooms, you know, there's no economic barrier on Silasai bin Mushrooms. Right. It's available for the poorest of the poor. They just fucked everything up in 1970, didn't they? 1971, I think, 1972 when they put it on schedule one. Yeah. The schedule one substance is supposed to be, has no medical benefit, highly addictive.

48:35And potentially toxicity. Do you know the LD50 lethal dose of Silasai bin Mushrooms is 42 pounds? Yeah, that's a lot. 42 pounds. And that only kills half the people. Or it goes half the people you dive into in justion. That's for Silasai bin. You dive in diarrhea. You dive in diarrhea. You imagine a diarrhea, you get eaten 42 pounds of mushrooms. That's the little role. It's at least toxic, one of the least toxic mushrooms ever found the nature of it. But these are concerned though with people that have problems with mental health though, right? I don't think Silasai bin Mushrooms are Silasai bin is good for people who have a psychological.

49:09Right. I think there are the groups of people. We do need Silasai bin Marcyclology assisted therapy. You know, it's super important that people who are experienced can help other people who are inexperienced process. Yeah. That's really important. I think so too. I think that's part of the, that's probably part of the, one of the things that's really wonderful about the community of people that have experienced these things is that, they do understand how life changing it is from a personal perspective. And they can aid people and help them through it. And if they're good people, and they, you know, can show you like, hey, I've done this.

49:45It's going to be scary. It's going to weird you out. But ultimately you're going to come on the other end of this better person. And you know, you just met my, my partner, Dr. Pam Crisco. She is part of a group called Roots the Thrive in Canada. And she has Canadian health approval for high doses of Silasai bin. Interestingly, we just put a paper, published a paper on pure Silasai bin versus the mushroom in Silasai bin with patients who have taken both. I'll talk about that in a second. But what these are end of life patients, typically with stage four diagnoses, oftentimes cancer. And they're just existentially disturbed.

50:24I'm going to die and leave my family. What are they going to do? Lots of heart, heart -breaking thoughts, etc. They do a long preparatory period together as a group. They have a commonality that they all have terminal illnesses, internal diagnoses. So they have that thread that holds them together as a community because they talk about the difficulty in their state planning and talking to their daughter and how they're going to miss them. And they're going to miss all those dynamics that we all know about. But this always brings me to tears. They're doing it on indigenous land within indigenous elders, also participating.

51:02And what happened from one of the experiences that I can share with a dozen or so terminal patients, high doses of Silasai bin and the indigenous, especially in the Pacific Northwest and Canada, when you do Silasai bin for the first 20 minutes, you hit an hour, you're just starting to really get high, an hour and a half, you're peaking. And just had the peaking of this experience unbeknownst to them, the elders had a drum circle next door. And they started playing drums. And the impact of having those indigenous elders recognizing that these patients are in the journey to the end of their life.

51:47And they respected them enough to say they needed this. The impact of those, that indigenous wisdom to help these terminal patients was so impactful. And this is where I think this is a great opportunity. And then the common theme is that those patients became the counselors to their families. They went back and saying, it's okay, I'm dying. I'll be okay. You'll be okay. And the families are going, WTF, what is going on here? And this happens with law enforcement. This happens with PTSD and soldiers. This is happening with terminal cancer patients. As we all are going to die, that is a fact. To be able to come into, to be able to come at peace to the fact that your mortality is near.

52:42When you're 20 years old, you don't really think about this. When you get older and older, I'm 69 turning on 70. I feel like I'm 35, but that's not true. I just feel like, you know, I didn't exist in this form before I was born. I'm going to be going back into molecules that will disambiguate into atoms, reassembled to new molecules. I'm part of the continuum of existence. And I think this is what these psychedelics give a lot of people confidence about the fact that they will always, and have always existed and will exist forever. If your molecules are going into the continuum of existence, what do you think the purpose of you being here now is?

53:24What do you think the purpose of the present moment of your life as you're currently living? That's the great question of all time. But I think even the construct of the question is confined, but the limitation of our ability to construct that question. I think we may be asking the wrong question. I think the purpose of our being is a technology. We are being here because we are. And I don't think there is, I mean, again, look at the Ruben telescope images. I have a friend. A friend of mine. Isn't quite a millions of galaxies. When you see the enormity of the universe, I mean, I can't wait to fly.

54:08I want my molecules and atoms to fly through space. I don't know. I would love to see the rings of so many planets. I'd love to see supernova. And I feel like, yeah, and that's the direction we're all headed towards. This episode is brought to you by Farmer's Dog. It doesn't matter how old your dog is. It's always a great time to start investing in their health and happiness. And thankfully, the Farmer's Dog makes it easier than ever to feed your dog a healthy diet of real meat and veggies. Dogs prefer their food, even picky dogs, and owners prefer their service. If you have a question about your dog, your plan, your delivery, or anything else, they have 24 -7 customer service that connects you to real humans who are genuinely interested in providing the best experience possible for you and your dog.

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56:15They should have not been able to be formed as quickly as they are. It's an order of magnitude higher. The entire visible universe I think in about three days. That took otherwise months to do. The assembly and AI is helping, of course. I think near -earth asteroids, this is an impactful discovery, literally. I always worry about an asteroid coming from behind the sun. How many? Well, it's probably been the reset for civilization over and over again throughout time. That's the proliferation, for instance, of Sols -Iban. I find a lot of different things. I've a business and I created my business specifically to do research.

56:59One of the Utah State University, I've studied on the evolution of the genes that code for Sols -Iban. The results in some molecular genetic clock data, there's variability of a few million years in interpretation. But the arrival of Sols -Iban in the fungal genome is about 65 million years ago. Wow. Wow. That's interesting time. After the asteroid impact, now it's an association causation. Not necessarily, but probably makes sense. There was a new asteroid. Look at their coast. This video on the New York Times article, I don't know how to control the video. No, there's three different asteroids.

57:46There are six nine asteroids. Yes, showing here these discoveries in here in a second, it'll show you how and the time of the discoveries. It'll show one day, right here, I think it is. It'll discover 800 or 900 in the first day. Oh, boy. Like, 400 or 500 more the next day. Come on over the next day. But watch how it zooms out here in a second to show you where this is. It gives you like a perspective. It's just like 10 days in. Wow. And then it zooms out here again further. Oh, no. So they discovered 2000 asteroids and that tiny little slip over it. Oh, boy. I've never made that video. That's awesome.

58:27Jamie, you're the master of discovering these things. I mean, what should people when they want to find out? It's in the New York Times article about the Rubin telescope that came out probably today yesterday. And they're keeping much of this undercover, so to speak. The scientists are very disciplined. They're only letting it a little bit out at a time. Keep people from freaking out. Well, not even to think that as they're trying to be good scientists. They're trying to assemble the data in a fashion that, you know, they don't have to redefine later. Has this telescope recently come online? Yes, it has.

58:55Well, it's been online, I think for a few months. The data is just being revealed now. Wow. But I think 3 .2 billion pixel cameras, the largest ever created. In five years now, you'll have that on your phone. I mean, maybe. I was wondering what kind of lens they made to go on up. I'd be like, wow, look at that thing. That's insane. And if they had that telescope out in space, they wouldn't have the interference. Right. Right. But how would you get that thing? So we kind of rock it. When you go back to those images, this is astronomy 101. I'm not telling you anything you don't know necessarily.

59:29But all those stars, all those galaxies are in the past. Hundreds of millions of years ago. We're just a coincidence of seeing them right now. Right. Because the light has just reached us. With just reaching us. So that's what's so fascinating to me. This is a snapshot of multiple histories converging to one point of view. Also, forager ones about to hit the one light day travel mark, which is a significant mark. But it's still not that far in the grand. See, when I trip on Solsaiven, this is what I love doing. This is trying to comprehend the enormity and the beauty of the universe. I believe the universe is full of love.

1:00:11You know, I think that, you know, we're built on relationships. And when you have relationships, when you have a quorum of individuals that are sharing assets. You know, you build a community. Well, you certainly see that with human beings. The question is, what kind of life are we experiencing in these other planets? Like, what is life for them? Should we be so naive to think that it went along the exact same linear path as biological life on Earth? Or is it completely unrecognizable? And when, you know, we're dealing with intelligent life from other planets. Maybe they'd be so intelligent that they wouldn't travel.

1:00:55And maybe they don't need to. And maybe they're also dealing with solar systems that, you know, we have, as a result of multiple impacts, including the creation of Earth itself, right? There was Earth and there was Earth too. We were hit by another planet. They think that's what created the moon. Like, all that stuff leaves debris. It's all flying around. The brieffields. And if it was a rejuperer, we would have never made it this far. Absolutely. That's our protector. Yep, absolutely correct. We would have never made it to 2025. We would have been dust a long time ago. We have a form of biological myopia thinking that we need sunlight and oxygen for life.

1:01:30Right. And now, you know, from Chernobyl, we know that fungi can use radioactivity as an energy source. We have methane -based organisms. Yeah, and that crazy. Yeah, so methane -based organisms. I believe matter gets life. Life becomes single cells. Single cells form change. Yeah. They branch. They branch networks form. And within these networks are associations of members that exchange resources. I don't believe that, you know, evolution is based on survival of fittest. I believe it's the evolution is based on the extension of generosity beyond that of your own needs to build a community of reciprocity.

1:02:09Certainly human evolution. I think it's happening all over. I think having with tigers and gizellas. Absolutely. You know, we're animals. No, no, no, no, no, no, animals. For sure, but they're not very generous. They just try to, they just try to eat and survive. There's a great, um, on Chile, there's a great footage. It's amazing of these orcas, aka killer whales just devastating a sealed population eating them. You may have seen this. And after they were satiated, these orcas would take the pups and they'd push them up on shore to save them. Well, they're very intelligent, which is one of the more interesting things about orcas that they don't kill people unless they're at sea world.

1:02:51Yeah. Which is probably where they should be killing people. Yeah, I just met a herpetologist and I raised snapping turtles. I was a kid. So I had the turtle necklace. I was just very shy boy with a profound stuttering habit. But my friends were wild snapping turtles. And this herpetologist, he goes, why is snapping turtles? They're really mean. And they were having my aquarium, they kept on front of bite me. I go, no shit Sherlock. You know, I had wild snapping turtles and a pond. And I went down there. I've had a salary and let us, this is when I'm eight years old. I had them for about seven years.

1:03:25I grew up a success of families. And at first they'd try to bite me, things like that. And then I realized if I put out a little salad bowl for them, they wouldn't fight each other. Because they're not trying to bite me. They would try like, I want the carrot from Paul. Right. When I put a little salad bowl there, they kind of all came together and they cooperated. And so I just reflected on this yesterday, one of my fondest memories when I walked towards the pond. And they pop up. Oh, Paul's here. Paul's here. Oh, that's so cool. Yeah, so snapping turtles are an amazing ability that can snap flies out of the air.

1:03:57Oh, they're so fast. They're so fast. I saw this video of one eating a fish. They put a fish in front of it like a dead fish. And it eats it so fast, it just disappears. It just snaps its neck forward and gulfs this fish, swallows it all and it looks like a magic trick. Oh, my gosh. You have to look at it in slow mode, even see the action of it. There's so much sea life there. The British Columbia is just full of sea life. Oh, it certainly is. Incredible place. Yeah. I love it. I love it being there. So, you know, this is a beautiful planet where we live. There's no garbage. And the visitors come to visit us on our island.

1:04:40I said, have you noticed? There's no garbage anywhere. Not in this island, not ditches anywhere. It's because the ethos of that community is to take care of the ecosystem. That's beautiful. And that can be done if you have a small community of like -minded people. Of like -minded people. The real issue is when it gets to the size of something like New York City, this becomes this diffusion of responsibility. Where you don't think that you have to be concerned with all those garbage is on the ground, because there's 20 million people walking around. It's just -it is what it is. Keep moving. Or India.

1:05:12I'm just - I'm just - It's just a heart torn by India. Such a spiritual place and there's so much garbage. China as well. You know, this is - But the India thing is nuts, because it's also in these areas where a lot of the stuff that people buy that's inexpensive. And America is being manufactured. And then there's factories who's the back of the factory opens to this river. And this river is completely choked with plastic and garbage and just junk. And all the stuff that they don't want, they just throw into the river. And there's so much stuff in the river that I guess they just feel like, well, it's not like I'm polluting something that's not already polluted.

1:05:49I'm just adding to whatever is there. This is just what we do. And so they've developed this culture of like constant, consistent pollution. Yeah, we all need to, you know, even teaching our children constantly to pick up. But there are communities, there are examples of doing it right. And this community that I've associated with, I'm just so proud of them. I wanted to talk to you about something that you said earlier, because you were talking about human species and - Or species and love and cooperation and all the different things. And I said, you uniquely with us, yes, love and random acts of kindness and community are incredibly important.

1:06:29But what do you think, why do you think we're so different than all the other species on the planet? And what do you think that civil society, like do you subscribe to McKenna's theory? I know we've probably talked about this before, but - Yeah, we've talked about it - As a standalone podcast, this is probably - This is what I'd like and for all your listeners out there, this is the never ending story. It just keeps on getting better. The most exciting thing that has come out in the scientific literature in the past two years is that psilocybin stimulates neurons to grow. That is incredible. A docs with a 5 -HT2A receptor is a serotonin uses, but psilocybin also docs with track B receptors that lead to proliferation of neurons.

1:07:13There's neuro -generation, neuro -regioneration, neurogenesis, and neuroplasticity. There's four distinct areas in psilocybin, does all of those, not as much a neurogenesis, but we have done pluripotent stem cells of humans, dose them with psilocybin in the laboratory. We have a DEA license, I have a DEA license, very, very strictly controlled, but we can actually see the proliferation of neurons compared to controls. This is where I want to emphasize to all scientists, especially older scientists, that are stuck in their wisdom, that are very comfortable with their knowledge base, and younger scientists come up with these ideas.

1:07:58Is that, be more circumspect, because what Dennis and Terence McKenna postulated, and I disagree with lots of Terence's ideas, Time Wave Zero was my total bullshit, but Terence and I were very good friends, and we laughed a lot, and that's a spirit of camaraderie where you can criticize someone and laugh at the same time. That's a higher level of intelligence. Well, that's also what happens when you abandon the ego. The ego is consistently abandoned through psychedelic experiences. You're much more likely to laugh at that. I think psilocybin is an Einstein molecule. I think the trip to means in general are Einstein molecules.

1:08:38The work by Gold Doulden is just fantastic, also associated with Johns Hopkins, of the critical window. This is why I began as it's gotten subtraction, the critical window with I have a long window where you're able to repattern your behavior to break addiction. With psilocybin, there's a critical window. DMT is very, very short, because the critical window typically is at the peak of the experience and just as you're over the hump going down. But one patient described it very, very well, who was an addict, and the patient said before the psilocybin experience, they were literally stuck in a rut.

1:09:23Stuck in a rut, and they have visually sought themselves on a ski slope. Going down the ski slope again and again, again, stuck in the rut. And then after the psilocybin, it's like someone groomed the landscape, the hill. And they're free. And they're free to go elsewhere. And then Josh Segal, this past year, from Washington University, published a study that specifically showed in real time, dendritic branchings of neurons are the influence of psilocybin in real time. And psilocybin, which becomes psilocybin, what docks with your receptor, psilocybin stable, psilocybin is not psilocybin defrosts, it's in the psilocybin, it crosses into your receptors, it goes into, it stimulates the nucleus of cells that cause cell division.

1:10:17And this is mind -boggling. I think this is why high doses of psilocybin, great for revelatory experience, for perhaps breaking addiction, but what about the near normals? We all suffer from neurodegeneration that's age -related. Besides Alzheimer's and other forms of dementia, there are toxin or disease related, and in those cells there's disease you could argue, age being one. But neurodegeneration is a fact of life as we age. And the apathy is a cure. And the apathy is from the constriction of the peripheral nervous system, vasoconstriction, et cetera. A psilocybin is not only anti -inflammatory, but neurogeneralative.

1:10:56And to have this coupled together, I think that the newotropic vitamins of psilocybin, you know, as a daily consumable, is something that has a great future potential. Of course, we need to study this. But long -term clinical studies are inherently very expensive. A short time stay in a hospital for one huge event, maybe expensive for that day, but it's easier to do a clinical study that has a short period, that a long period. I think that we're beginning to see. Now, think about 8 million Americans consume psilocybin in 2023, according to the Rand Report, what was the reduction in crime with those 8 million people?

1:11:37If we could have studied that. And there are retroactive studies, you know, analyses that show a reduction of crime associated with psilocybin use. But in real time, that's something I'm excited about. Could you reduce crime rates? And moreover, when you're immunologically, when you're depressed emotionally, you're immunologically depressed. And when you're happier, you're more creative, you're exercising, your immune system is upregulated. So the community immunity from psilocybin, I think, is a huge potential. It's across over directly between your mental, your neuro escape, and your immunological state.

1:12:16Unquestionably. The diminishing of stress. And this is why it comes. Clinical benefits physiologically. Yeah, clinical studies just came out, compass pathways, the treatment, registment, depression. They had analysis that came back, showed modest increase or decrease in depression. But they were doing treatment, resistant depression. And congratulations for them for putting the money, the money where their mouth is, and didn't do any study. But treatment, resistant depression is a failure of two antidepressive drugs and therapy. And so, but major depressive disorder is a much bigger bucket. And so I think there are some extreme conditions that we're not going to find the signal from the noise that's significant enough to make a big difference.

1:13:04But the idea of titrating psilocybin or psilocybin, maybe after a hero's journey. And then by after re -remembering, you revisit the same neurological pathways that gave you an advantage by taking psilocybin or psilocybin, and the act of taking it again, you're re -remembering, and then you can nurture these neurons. I think psilocybin could be nutrients for the neurons. Let's in the effort to make this a standalone podcast. Let's explain what we're talking about, because what we're talking about is Terence's stone -daped theory. And his theory involved a lot of contributing factors, one of them being climate change.

1:13:46And the theory was that as the rainforests were seated into grasslands, you get more unjelid animals, and they leave behind poop, and that these lower primates find these mushrooms that are growing on the poop and they experiment with them. And that the ones that did increased visual acuity, they became more amorous, they were more likely to breed, more creative, the ability to form sentences, glossolalea, associate sounds with objects and concepts, and that this is probably how language formed among humans. And Terence's connection to that, when you look at the timeline of when this was happening, when we know this was happening, which coincides with the growth of the human brain, which over a period of two million years, double in size, which is pretty phenomenal.

1:14:37Yeah, 200 ,000 years, it increased massively. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Have you ever been shopping online and the website just gave you the ick? Let me tell you, that wouldn't happen if they used Squarespace. Squarespace Design Intelligence empowers anyone to build beautiful, more personalized websites tailored to your unique needs, and with Squarespace payments, it's super easy to manage payments with just a few clicks. Plus, with Squarespace's integrated and optimized SEO tools, there's all the help you need to get people to your site. Head to squarespace .com slash Emma for a free trial, and use code Emma to save 10 % on your first purchase.

1:15:22This episode is brought to you by Paramount Pictures new film The Naked Gun. There's comedy, and then there's The Naked Gun. It's in a league of its own. If the trailer is anything to go by, this new film does not hold back. Liam Neeson is Frank Treben, Jr. son of the celebrated police squad lieutenant from the original films. Let's just say you've never seen Neeson like this, nor Pamela Anderson, or Paul Walter Hauser. A must watch on the big screen The Naked Gun only in theaters August 1st. So two million years on the outer limits, 200 ,000 in the inner limits. So in the inner limits, what was the amount of growth in the thousand years?

1:16:02I think it was 40, 50 % something something substantial. 200 ,000 years 50%. Yeah. And what time period was this? Well, 200 ,000 years ago. 200 ,000 years ago. There was no, so. But like homo sapiens in this form have existed more than 200 ,000 years though, right? No. No. Homo sapiens are relatively recent. I look at the estimates go back and forth depending on what experts you're consulting. Right. And whatnot. But from homo erectus to homo sapiens was a radical jump. That was fairly recent. I was under the impression it was more than 300 ,000 years ago. It could be 200 ,000, 400 ,000, but it's you know, we are our enlargement of our brain is relatively recent.

1:16:49And to give more context, Dennis McKinnon and I were just together. I love that you Dennis McKinnon is a fantastic friend and scientist and he's such a good man. Well, he does such a brilliant job of explaining the mechanism behind the stone ape theory. Terrence had a great way of talking. He was so interesting to listen to and had these wonderful ideas. But Dennis is like much more of a hardcore scientist. Yeah, Dennis is a scientist and his brother breaks it down. He was a philosopher. Yeah. And the Dennis McKinnon Academy is a nonprofit. I'm just promoting it just because I think they do really, really good work.

1:17:28But this is, you know, the 23 primary teeth mushrooms. Almost all mushrooms have maggots in them. Most primary teeth maggots. So finding the mushrooms for maggots, for food, for protein. Two things can be true, right? You can find the maggots eat the mushrooms and then get high as a community. Right. But all these, again, this is an example of the art that we see thousands of years ago. We can debate this in the past, but we can test this. This is a testable hypothesis. Right. It's a theory now. It's not a hypothesis. We know that psilocybin stimulates neuron proliferation. Terrence did not have the, and Dennis did not have the scientific evidence for that.

1:18:1030 years ago, we now have the evidence for it now. Terrence and Dennis McKinnon should go down and evolutionary biology as the two individuals that who could see in the far event horizon way before the scientific method. How did they come up with that? Because they were tripping on mushrooms. Yeah, exactly. That's why scientists using psychedelics is a quantum leap. You know, it's how PCR was invented. Yeah, carry molars. Carry molars. Yeah. Had a trip on that list, didn't you? Yeah, it's a great crank of DNA. Yeah. And it's Stephen Jobs. Yeah. Silicon Valley is fueled by psychedelic thinkers who are become more creative.

1:18:47And we, I think we have a crisis in creativity. And psilocybin is a way for us to become smarter, more congenial, more collaborative. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. And I think we can, this combined psychedelics with AI, we have an opportunity for a quantum leap and the evolution of a human species. Do you mind explaining time wave zero because we kind of glossed over that too? Hey, hey, hey, big brain. So that's a skeptic. Time wave zero is an algorithm that Terrence and one of the stone moments, I think. Terrence is the only person that I met who could smoke me under the table and stand up and give it an incredibly perfect lecture.

1:19:25I don't know how you could do it. But time wave zero, and I'm sorry for those people who are time wave zero experts, you can criticize me if you wish. But I admit my ignorance to an degree, is an algorithm that was created that would predict events in history. Woodtrack novelty. Woodtrack novelty and episodic events that changed the course of human history. Right. He didn't have the birth of Jesus Christ as a significant event. He was sort of anti -Christian. I said Terrence, I don't care if you're Christian or not. The birth of Jesus Christ was a huge friggin phenomenon. It changed the course of history.

1:19:58And then he had a time wave zero would end on December 12th, 2012. And that's when he predicted December 21st, 2012. Yeah, December 23rd, 2012. And that didn't happen either. I used to have a license plate that said 12, 21, 12. Yeah. So, but you know, it's what I like about Terrence. And I would encourage all perspective scientists. If you don't word about tenure, if you got a thick skin, dare to be wrong. Because you dare to be wrong a dozen, twenty, thirty times. You might be hitting one or two concepts that is game changing. Right. If you're not willing to fear failure, inhibit your creativity.

1:20:36But that's a giant problem in the academic world is that people who do fail get attacked. And especially with the step outside the lines, they propose something that's novel, they get attacked. This time wave zero thing, like you used to be able to get it. It was an actual program that you could download and you could run it on your own computer. Yeah. And that's when they talked to Terrence. I go, well, what happens when, you know, the like the birth of Jesus Christ? Where does that come up with that concept? Did you ask him about that? No, I never figured it out. He goes, well, just adapt the algorithm.

1:21:09I said, okay, then it's not really, it's just something that's constantly adapting itself. So, anyhow, it was a, it's a thought experiment. And obviously, I wish he was alive on December 21, 2012, I'd be like, end. And what? But maybe we're wrong. Maybe in that timeline, something did happen on December 21, 2012, that will be recognized in the future. I doubt it. Well, this is what I'm getting to. Yeah. One of the things that did happen in that time frame is the ubiquitous use of social media. It kind of started peaking around 2012. I think there is a real problem with that, with the human race.

1:21:49And I don't necessarily think we recognize things that are constant. You know, I think we just get accustomed to things and human beings are very adaptable. And we just accept things that this is the way it is. But before that time, you know, when you get to like 2000, you know, just go to 2000. People weren't carrying their phones around staring at them all day. Is it profound change in how we interface with the world? You know, in Korea now, on the sidewalks, they have red bars that light up to tell you to stop. They're boring. Because too many people are walking out in the street. Just standing there staring at their phones.

1:22:23So now they look down, they see that they're so addictive. It's so crazy that we have a wreck. Anything that's that addictive can't be good for you. I don't care if you're getting information all day long. And in the sense of social media, you're getting negative information all day long. So it changes the perspective. Yes, it's about to clickbait. Well, that's the problem we were talking about about the media earlier, about the media fueling the stuff. That's their job, unfortunately. In this day and age where no one's buying print journalism, their job is to get you to click on something. And so they have these crazy headlines.

1:22:57We need to really have a thoughtful discussion about all the issues that we are facing today without being reactionary. Yes. And I think we need to disengage with these things that are clickbait. Just don't click on them. The way these things operate is the more you click on them, the more valuable they are. That's the whole business model. Just don't engage with them. And we need to teach people that. Like this is an important thing. Don't engage with something that's trying to manipulate you. Don't engage with these narratives that are being put forth by corporations that value your fear. They want you to be in this constant state of anxiety and fear.

1:23:36And they want you to be a beautiful consumer. And that's it. That's why, yes, so I hate those of us all, but it is not a very good business model. Exactly. There's Michael Paul and Alexis. But it is a good business model for overall human compassion and growth in the community. And then of course, medium and microdosing, really popular practice right now, increasingly popular. It's a high dose of soul -saving once a year. And then microdosing just before you go to sleep. Or a medium dose, like the museum dose. Museum dose. I like it. You can't just say, here's a jubhucker mushroom, Heather, you have like museum dose.

1:24:17This is a movie dose. This is a concert dose. The museum dose. The date night dose. Graham Hancock and I and and and and and some friends went to a museum in the British Museum. But the museum dose was just tend to you can notice them because they wear sunglasses inside. Because otherwise people are trying to keep it together, keep it together. But the idea of taking a museum dose, quote unquote, or a microdose before sleep is that's when you're regenerating. That's when your body and your brain is regenerating. So that is really, really interesting is taking those those those. Well, that makes sense especially from like an anti -aging protocol for the mind.

1:25:03And it's also safer. Yeah. Right. You're in bed. You're not going anywhere. Yeah, I'm in a track. That's why I think clinical studies that look more and more, reducing the expense having people take the dose of medicine, the cell size in this case, just before you go to sleep. Before sleeping, they're in a safe place. Yeah, I had a Bernie Sanders on the podcast yesterday and one of the things that we talked about quite a bit was what's going to happen with people when automation takes over when AI and automation take over and so many people are not working anymore. And we both kind of agree that universal basic income is really the only way to mitigate the disastrous effects of people losing their income, losing their jobs.

1:25:50And I think it's a good thing. But the problem with universal being basic income is that just giving people a check, they don't have they don't have meaning anymore. They don't feel like they have a purpose. They don't feel like they have an identity. If you're your whole life, you've been X, whatever the job is, it gets taken away and you recognize you're being really good at your job and you take pride in that and you're known by your coworkers is like, hey, go to Paul, he's the best. He'll take care of it. He knows what he's doing. And all of a sudden, that job disappears. How do people fund value and how do they switch their perspective?

1:26:27And talking to you today, I think it's perfect because I think if there's anything that could help us through this journey, that could help people make this transition, which appears to be inevitable, where artificial intelligence is going to do a far better job at a lot of medial tasks that people have been doing for an occupation for a long time to find a search for meaning to find some other way to realize value in life. And not just to be a cog in the wheel of this capitalist society, but instead maybe psilocybin would allow people to completely change their perspective of how they exist in this world.

1:27:08And that you've been kind of trapped in this society where values numbers, it values a constant growth for the shareholders and values. But what you can see in your bank account that's like not even real, so it's this digital money that's somewhere maybe psilocybin would be the best answer for how do people make this transition and re -acquire a sense of meaning. Right. I mean, do you want to spend your whole life on an assembly line? Right. Or do you want to be out more in nature with your children? Right. And you think nature -relatedness is a mental health advantage. The more that we can relate to nature, and literally go back to our roots, re -engaging nature, I think this is...

1:27:55And that would give you a sense of purpose instead of the job. And also the protection of the mothership. But we've gotten so accustomed to this idea that your purpose is to make money. Your purpose is to make a living. And we've accepted that, even though it's a fairly new concept in terms of the age of the earth. You know, this is a human created concept, but it's...overwhelms our day -to -day existence. It doesn't have to though. But in this structure, the way we find ourselves now, you take away meaning. You take away a purpose in life, and you just give people a government check every month that covers everything.

1:28:34Covers your food, covers your rent, covers your...you don't need to make money anymore. Because everything is automated, everything is cheap, AI controls it all. So... What was Bernie's answer to that? He didn't have one. Yeah, he didn't know. But I don't know if Bernie's had any experiences in that regard. And he didn't have that perspective. But talking to you right afterwards might be the answer. Because this isn't inevitable journey that we're on of a revolutionary change in how society is structured. But it doesn't have to be negative. The problem is the people that are in control of AI and these systems, the people that will benefit from them incredibly in financial sense.

1:29:16Those people are not having these experiences. And if they were having these experiences, they could be the only ones. If you have a benevolent person in extreme position of power, they're probably the only people that can really do something about that. And I think it's really important that they hear this. That you realize like you're wasting this valuable moment in life trying to acquire money. When we have this very unique opportunity to connect together in a way that people probably used to do on a regular basis in the past. But was always suppressed by the powers that be because of its revolutionary powers.

1:29:58If civil society increases creativity, creativity increases happiness and happiness. Upregulates the immunity of the community. Yeah. It's a community dictator. You get a dictator's want people in constant conflict fighting against each other and they take advantage of that. In a sense, that analogy that the patients had about being in a rut, maybe we're in a societal rut. This is the opportunity for us to be able to groom the landscape and find new ways of living and behaving. It might be the only way we can get through this. Because if you think about what this problem is, the problem is the way we interface with reality.

1:30:42That's really what it is. If we have been interfacing with reality in a particular way, showing up at work every day, doing our job, getting a paycheck, employing the month, that's how you interface reality most of your life. And then also, you're met with this profound technological change. It's going to eliminate your job. What there needs to be some sort of profound experience that reintegrates you with the mother. It lets you know, this is something people made. This is something that people made and most of the people that made it, we're in having psychedelic experiences. And they're building cities and they're building skyscrapers and they're polluting the river.

1:31:16And they're doing all this stuff and it doesn't mean that this is how we're supposed to do it. Exactly. And again, I'm going to reiterate, I think we have a crisis in creativity. I think so, Osaybin and his other psychedelics stimulate creativity. Look at Alex and Alex and Grace work. I mean, some of the psychedelic artists in the world, and it's fired. And the nicest people, he's a role model for being just a kind, nice, sweet person. And the Alex gave me some of the best advice I've ever received. And I give Alex a great total credit for this. And I ask him, this is my eighth book. Oh my God, it's so much worked right up book.

1:31:57I didn't use any AI writing this book. I wrote the whole thing myself. And I ask Alex, you know, you're so prolific. How do you do it? I go as I read my head, one realization every day, I go up to that canvas with my brush. I commit to making one stroke. And then three, four hours later, you still have to canvas. Is that, which is just the new, that tipping point, right? Yeah, calling the news. Yeah, just doing it. Press field talked about that in the war of art. Have you read that book? No. I've got copies of it. He sent me a whole box because back in Los Angeles, I used to keep a stack of them on the table and hand them out to people.

1:32:37And it's all about creating things in resistance. And this thing that we all have where we're reluctant to sit down and actually do the work. But if you could just commit, and he would, he calls it the muse. He, like in many, many creative people over time, have called upon the muse. And this concept. And it sounds like airy fairy to a lot of people. But if you believe in it, and if you, you actually do that thing where you call upon the muse, it actually works. So whether or not it's real is irrelevant. This episode is brought to you by Tommy John. Guys, during summer, you want to be sun -drenched, not sweat -drenched.

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1:35:15Do yourself a favor, go to Manscaped .com, use the code Rogan15 at checkout and get 15 % off your entire order. Again, that's code Rogan15 for 15 % off your entire order at Manscaped .com, own the summer, own the dome. I have a muse and my partner asked me a few months ago, how many more hours do you have to work on this book? She saw me working on a book for two and a half years and I said, oh, more than 500 hours. She got 500 hours! It's just so much discipline. If you have any writers of books, any people built a house, if you comprehensively ignore them or project, you probably wouldn't even start.

1:35:58I can't think like that. So, the process. The process. I had this little voice in my head that I would wake up and I didn't want to feel guilty about it. I had this little voice saying, work on the book, Paul. Work on the book. Work on the book. Work on the book. I could say it worked so fast because I had re -interrated that my head hundreds of times that it became sort of my muse. It became sort of a fun muse. I think we all have these little voices that kind of, you know, get it right, Stamets, you know? Wake up. I think so too. And I think that's good. I don't think that's, you know, psychosis.

1:36:38I think that's something that we all have these little voices that are trying to help us to be better. Yeah, whether it's internal or external, whatever it is. You can have a voice. It's like working out. The discipline of being able to make sure that you're the best that you can be. So it's a very exciting time that we live in. And there's a mushroom revolution happening all over the planet. I think there's a psychedelic revolution that's happening over the planet. I think it's happened over the last 20 years. And I think it's happened because of the internet. And I think that's a big factor because what they did in the 1970s by, you know, with the Nixon administration did, which is essentially to squash the civil rights movement and the anti -war movement, what they did really fucked up society for a long time.

1:37:25And it put in people's heads that this is how we're supposed to be, that these laws that are in place make sense, and that they're there in order for society to function at its optimal levels. It's just not true. And unfortunately, like a lot of things that get, that propaganda gets pushed, and people start accepting that propaganda as fact, it takes a long time, relatively, in our lifetimes, to sort of recognize that this is not right. And this is not how we should have been living the entire time. This is, we were trapped. We were trapped in the system. And because of the internet and because of conversations and because of people like you, that talk about this openly, and many, many others as well, we're all contributing to this base of knowledge where people are in their car right now, sort of reconsidering their perspective.

1:38:12They're at the gym right now on the treadmill thinking about this going, yeah, why do we allow these human beings that have never had these experiences to tell us that these experiences are not just not allowed. But if you get caught with these things, you'll be put in a cage. Well, because we are, we are those of us from the second -dollar community who advocate for the freedom of consciousness as a basic civil right. We are by definition disruptors to authoritarianism. Yeah. So, you know, this is what, this is why I think, unfortunately in many cultures, it become restricted to just a small group of priests, or macognosentity, they wanted to control how gates to heaven boarded the control of consciousness.

1:38:58And so I think that, you know, it's so exciting about a civil sivine and civil sivim mushrooms as a practice and hunting mushrooms in general. It just gives you a quality of life. That's just a game changer. Yeah. Now with eye naturalist and everything that you can do, it's just getting people out in nature with their children, children are close to their grounds, so they find more mushrooms. Yeah. They're away from the business and their parents and the phones, you know, some phones. But you get them involved and interacting with nature is just, it's like the telescope, then seeing all the galaxies.

1:39:40I think interacting with nature is a vitamin. I think it's just, you know how we get vitamin D from the sun. I think we get something that hasn't been measured yet from interacting with nature. We know that there is an alleviate, you can actually study an alleviation of stress levels from people that go out in nature. And this thing that we're experiencing, we just don't know how to measure it. Yeah. You know, and I think it's a real thing. One of the things that makes me very happy and hopeful now is that you're seeing this openness to psychedelics that's coming from more right -wing people. And it was always a thing of the left.

1:40:23It was always a thing of hippies and it was dismissed by people on the right as people that were trying to avoid reality. They were trying to, you know, escape reality. They couldn't handle reality. They weren't disciplined. They weren't, you know, if they were hardworking people, they wouldn't be wasting their time getting high on drugs. There's that thought. I think one of the bridges to that is the benefit that it's had for soldiers. For soldiers and for people that are first responders. People that suffer from PTSD. And that has trickled down into the general population of the people on the right, which is how you get a guy like Rick Perry that is all the sort of becoming this very strong advocate for Abigail and having it passed in Texas.

1:41:07So the initiative passed, which is huge. It's huge. It's a promising step in the direction of understanding that a lot of the division that we have in this country is artificial. It's manufactured. It is out of the blue country music singer, which I had no idea who she was, KC Muscreves. She's superstar country music. About a loop. She reached out to me and she had a civil -sciven experience that inspired her. She has an album called Deeper Well. It's just amazing. I was not in the country music until I listened to her. And she reached out to me because of a civil -sciven experience. And we decided to do a Sing for Science.

1:41:49We sold out the Ryman Theatre in Nashville in three hours. 2 ,500 people. These are country music people. 2 ,500 people in three hours. Unfortunately, she was in Mexico. She fell and she broke a rib. So we had to cancel the concert until September 18th. Or the Sing for Science. But that is an example. Well, I think my friend, Sturgel Simpson, sort of opened up the door for psychedelics and country music. And we turtles all the way down. He basically wrote a song about God and psychedelics. That was a country song. And everybody was like, hey, what the hell is going on? It's funny because psychedelics build bridges that marijuana doesn't.

1:42:30I met a lot of people who would never smoke a joint. But the idea of doing a slow -sciven mushroom sound like fun to them. Well, marijuana is also associated with lazy people and narrative wells. And stinky people with bad ideas. Unfortunately. And I think, you know, look, there's a... One of the things that's interesting is the Jiu -Jitsu community is there's a whole lot of stoners in the Jiu -Jitsu community. A lot of people using psychedelics for a psychedelic performance. Oh, yeah. Well, I know a bunch of people who fought on mushrooms. Yeah. I have a friend who was a world -class kickboxer who had some of his greatest performances while he was fighting on mushrooms.

1:43:10And he said he could see what the guy was going to do before he did it. Yeah. This is the indigenous use of slow -sciveness to see in the future. That's one of the things that the advantages I think I've had also. And then they're able to prognosticate in the future. There was a... We had this extraordinary individual told me a story, which I think I have right. But I want to share it with you. There's a game that's very common, even in the Philippines, but in Canada, it's a German game, eventually. And the idea is you put nails on a block of wood and use an ice pick. And you have to hammer the nail in with one hit.

1:43:48And each time in a bar or party or whatever, people throw it on money. $5, $20, etc. A nail on an ice pick. So you have the point of the ice pick. You've got to hit that nail at the very point. Yeah, it's a sink it all the way into the wood. So, of course, you go around, people are drinking, etc. So the story, as I remember him telling me, is that he went to the bathroom. He's not a toker. He doesn't get some pot. But someone said, hey, you want some mushrooms. And they're playing this game. And there was a bunch of his friends who were gathered. And he goes, I'll try some mushrooms. So he ate some mushrooms and he came back.

1:44:23And he's the circle of their people are about to hang out. Hey, come over and join us. You know, and he watched for a while. He had played this game and then he started getting higher and higher. And they said, come on, it's your turn. So he kind of looked at the nail. I mean, this is really hard to do. And he looked at the nail and looked at the nail and focused on it. He said he had such clarity of focus that everything else was blanked out. He looked at the nail and he just thought they would connect. Rather than hitting it, they would just connect. Bam! Slam the nail down on the first attempt.

1:44:58People were, whoa, incredible. So they put down, he's put some, put it down more money going around. So they came around, everyone's missing, everyone missing. Some people occasionally hit it a little bit, you know, but came around, came around to him. Now he's getting higher on the mushrooms, right? And he's looking at it, looking at it and he goes, bam! Slam's it again. People going, no way, right? This is impossible, right? So now, you know, there's a lot of money being powered up on the table here. They're coming around and everyone's going, impossible. Not going to happen. Can't do it a third time in a row.

1:45:33Looked out at laser focused. God, bam! Slam it again. Now people are losing their shit, right? They're like, what is going on here? And he said, he said, really the fuck with one guy who was just out of his mind that he could do this three times in a row. He went around again and this time he says, I'm going to really blow his mind. So he focused on the nail, focused on nail, had the hammer, looked at him, bam! Slamed it again. And nailed it. Yeah, literally nailed it. So these examples of... Well, that brings you to the Stone Dapethere, right? Well, the idea of the concept is... Well, the concept is, you know, with intense focus.

1:46:11Right. You know, and many years I have two black belts. I had schools for 30 years, black belt, and Taekwondo, and the Hwanang Go. I was in Shodokonshino Roo, Gojo Roo, and then Taekwondo, and then Hwanang Go, which is like Hapkido. But that idea of having a three -dimensional perspective, one of my best or my fun experiences... I was in the Dojo, or Dojo, in the Japanese, in Japan. Korean, as Korean. And I had my first black belt, and my head destructural was over there talking at someone, and then he had a baseball. And I heard later what he said. I told my friend, watch this, and he threw a baseball at me.

1:46:56My peripheral vision, boom! I just caught the baseball, and you know, just before I hit my head. But that idea of having that consciousness surrounding, that's why athleticism, with medium doses, and minor doses of solsibon, I think you can train your neurons to be able to have this peripheral awareness that's extremely important. It also alleviates the anxiety that comes before performance. Because a lot of people like to use it before sparring. Because sparring is kind of scary for some people. Yeah, but let's be clear, this is like the 80 -20 principle, maybe the 90 -10 principle. It's not going to work for the majority of people.

1:47:34There are exceptional individuals who can actually benefit from this. And like, you're not a disclaimer. Yeah, no, no. No, no, no. No, no. No, no, no. I told the phrase, listen, don't take any of our advice. But we're just talking about these things because there are anecdotal stories that are fascinating. And anecdotal stories are like case studies in medicine. You get enough of them, that you don't want to test this. Again, this is a testable hypothesis or theory in modern times. IHAN coordination. So psychomotor enhancement. This is why the stamp of stack speaks to this. We published in Nature Scientific Reports.

1:48:16A combination of solsibon, niacin and lion's domain, increased psychomotor ability of tapping in 10 seconds from 46 to 66 taps. That's a lot. That's a lot. And 10 seconds over 30 days. So people can argue about it, but the results of the results. When you're talking about depression and anxiety, that's subjective. But I'm really interested in the psychomotor benefits of solsibon with an ad mixture to enhance its performance. I think the root thing is solsibon. And being able to regenerate neurons is something I think is really important for us. Now with Gleeablastoma, which unfortunately, terrorists did die from that.

1:48:58That is uncontrolled proliferation of neurons in the brain. Yeah, there's sort of this contra -indication. Do you think there's something that's connected to that? No, I personally don't know. Why not? Just because I don't have evidence to the contrary, I don't have evidence that also suggests that. I see no correlation. But N of 1 is not, you know, it's, again, it's not a common thing amongst people that are using solsibon. But if you had 8 million people in the United States, you know, conducting solsibon, again, you have a data set. Right. So it's not like cigarettes. We see cigarettes. We know smoke cigarettes.

1:49:38There's a higher likelihood that you're going to get lung cancer. It's very clear. So we've known that over time. The problem with solsibon is it's been so taboo. And so we don't have real data. We don't have, you know, there's 235 clinical studies on solsibon at clinicaltrials .gov right now. Isn't that amazing? 235. Could you have imagined that 25 years ago? No, there was none. Impossible. Yeah, none. And there are for many indications, many different targets from addiction, cigarettes, alcohol, opioid use, to dementia, to Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, etc. So there's, you know, I think solsibon has a PR problem.

1:50:19It sounds too good to be true. But, you know, sometimes things can be true. But the reason why I think that there's 235 clinical studies is because basically it's improving your neuroscope. You're improving the neurology. Everything that we're using right now is based to our health of our nervous system. Right. And the neuroscope, if we can ingrits the neuroscope, then that has elaborations into everything that we do. And the fact is, coupled with anti -inflammatory activities and neurogenesis and neuro -regeneration, neuro -generational neuroplasticity, which is synoptogenesis, linoirons, proliferate, and then the shake hands, and it's only you have a new pathway.

1:51:01So there's anti -inflammatory properties? Solsibon has strong anti -inflammatory properties. Interesting. So that's just, has come out in the scientific literature. So that's... That wasn't aware of that. Yeah. That's really interesting. How did they study that? And what was the... The end of the topic I'll interview in six. There was a clinical study that was just published just recently and it downed regulated. It's a tumor necrosis factor in the leukemia in six. It downed regulated. That's an inflammatory cytokine. There's two anti -inflammatory cytokines that are extraordinarily interesting to us.

1:51:37In our research team, I have five PhD scientists, eight full -time scientists. That's why I created my businesses to do research. But interleukin, 10 and interleukin 1RA are anti -inflammatory cytokines. So when you can up -regulate those, then it kind of buffers the inflammatory effects. And so that's exciting to find these anti -inflammatory. That's... We were approved by the FDA for a COVID clinical trial based on the fact that we published this in the Journal of Information Research that interleukin, 10 and interleukin 1RA, were stimulated by a garicone and turkey tail, mycelium, grown on rice versus the rice control.

1:52:22So it was a peer -reviewed article when the pandemic started. The big concern was if you stimulate the immune system, you have a cytokine storm. And you can overwhelm the body with many... Ms. Smith said, many, if not most people, die from cytokine storm. Is there a overreaction of the immune system to COVID and to other diseases? So we were able to show you can augment in the literature your immune system, buffered with the anti -inflammatory properties. And that sort of resolved the argument of the cytokine storm concern. And then now we have a very successful study that shows that a garicone and turkey tail, mycelium, enhances the immunity of individuals long -term.

1:53:15Six months later. Six months later. That's a true thing. Yeah, it's a trophy. Yeah, oh, it's never leaving the desk. That sucker. And this is a great example because this is an end date or species in Europe. It's on a red list of extinction. In Europe it is. In Europe, these are growth rings. So this one's probably 25 years old. It's a very nice specimen. Oh, Stamins gave you this? Yes, Stamins gave you this. It's one of the one that's... It's one of the nicest specimens. So these are annual growth rings. Isn't it cool to see it on the desk? I love it. I thank you. People always ask, what the hell is that?

1:53:48So this is a garicone called Fomii, topped with sufficient Alice, also known as Lyrissa Fomii's. Diascritis, first described in Greek medicine, 2000 years ago, as Elexerium, Adlongum, Vitam, the elixir of long life. If someone took a little piece of that and put it in the ground, would it start making new a garicone? It looks like it goes inside the roots of trees. This one being as old as it is and being... Its spores are probably become not viable. But a garicone has the white form and the brown form. It goes through this massive transition as biochemistry. And because it's endangered and because highly variable in form, fruit -party extracts of this makes no sense.

1:54:30Why is it endangered in Europe and not in America? Orenny Grozen will go first. So the sky islands in Europe and Austria, Slovenia, is where this still can be found on large trees. We now have, I think, 115 strains of a garicone by far the largest library in the world. If you ask me, what is my most valuable possession? It's my strain library of a garicone. It's a treasure of strains. One out of 21 out of 100 times in the Old Growth Force, why find one? So we don't collect these unless it's going to be clear cut or we find them on the ground or if it's on my own property. And then I take a small piece of tissue.

1:55:15It's the mycelium that is bioactive for the immune system. And this is what we found that where it's scalable. The mycelium scalable, the fruit -party extracts are not. And it's highly variable. Most people don't know that, well, they should know that most mushrooms are parasitized by insects. And that's because the insect spread spores. So the mushrooms invite insects to come in. So they can spread spores. It's like lead cordyceps and ants. Yeah, like buzz pollination. That's the weirdest thing. When you see spiders and ants overwhelmed by cordyceps. Yeah, it's, I like to say, a cordyceps has to eat too.

1:55:51Yeah. Well, I mean, this is the cycle of life, right? So this is a garicone is, is, in the bio -shield about a defense program. Which by the way, this is your company, host defense. You have great stuff, man. I buy your stuff. Thank you. It gave me a bunch of it, but I buy it. Well, thank you for your support. We needed, I mean, I'm the only company that does research that I know of. I spent over a million dollars a year in fundamental research. Thinking outside of the box, even though traditional Chinese medicine is fantastic and has thousands of year history, all traditional medicines advanced with new technologies.

1:56:29That's true across the board. The invention of in -visual propagation about a hundred years ago growing my sylium now opens up this huge opportunity for us to dive into a deeper well of natural substances that can be used as adjunct therapies to enhance conventional medicine. This is a game changer. So 115 strains of a garicone. I submitted eight of them to the bio -shield about defense program after a 9 -11 -204. My TED talk talks about this. And I found two or three strains highly active against smallpox and also against bird flu. And if you go to National Public Radio, put stamens and smallpox, you'll see a vetted press release from DOD and the head of the bio -shield program, Jack Seekress, saying that whoops, these are some of the most significant results they've ever seen.

1:57:17Wow. The only two million samples submitted were in the top 10, the only natural product. Now, that's in vitro. So that in vitro, this is sort of a timeline. And you don't have a boy with a microphone, do you, Jamie? What is that? You didn't see it? Okay. What is boy with a microphone? That's a 42 -second clip we found in the vault. And it talks, it's me with my son when he's four years old and I'm on the phone saying, I've created this company to do research. Research is what we want to do. Truly, that's the origins of what I was trying, why I created my business. So I still do that. So the 115 strains were likely to have a super strain in our collection.

1:57:57Pandemics are coming all the time. We're in a viral storm. There's a bird through pandemic where many of us are so surprised that it has not happened at a bigger level. But viral pandemics are also affecting other animals, which are birds and pigs. 67 % of beehives were lost in Montana this past year. 67 % imagine if you had 67 % loss of a herd of cattle or sheep. That's phenomenal. And bird flu is spreading. It's making the jumps. It is coming folks. And so what we want to do is design a clinical study using a garalcon to test against bird flu. I'd be interested to see what if anything could be done with some of these mushrooms with chronic wasting disease, which is a huge concern among deer population.

1:58:48And even some other animals like moose and even that into a mycelial landscape. Mycelium is everywhere. The interactions of mycelium and animals, you know, is elaborate complex. This is crazy. And if anyone out here can prove me wrong, please send me the reference. But it appears I'm the first person to realize that bees go to rotted logs for the mycelium for immunological benefit. Really? First person. How is that possible? We all grew up with Winnie the Pooh. I mean, it doesn't mind boggling. Again, hiding it doesn't take a stroke of genius. But in my case, the bio -shield results, and then I heard about colony claps being vectored primarily by mites.

1:59:32This past year, they identified the miticide resistant mites, which most all of them are now, are vectors of the deformed wing virus. Coney claps is a threat to food biosecurity. And we found, and we published this in nature of scientific reports, extra -actual polypore mushroom mycelium protects bees from viruses. We published that in nature's scientific reports on the primary author. We were able to reduce viruses, the deformed wing virus by, I think, 879 times in 12 days with one treatment. So that is phenomenal for protecting food biosecurity. That helps all farmers. And there's a pandemic that's spreading.

2:00:1567 % lost, 60 % lost generally across the United States this year. The worst colony collapse in history. This will make food prices go up, and it doesn't stop, because these viruses are proliferating throughout the environment. We found that the polypore mushroom mycelium, grown on grain, or grown on sawdust, not only reduces these viruses, but extends longevity. And so the longevity, and interesting that this mushroom is known as elixirium at long -vitam, the elixir of long life. We are all animals. Bees are animals, birds are animals, pigs are animals, humans are animals. We are all, I think, could have an immunological benefit from incorporating these fungi.

2:00:57I know we're allowed by the FDA to say supporting innate immunity in healthy individuals. We're not allowed to make any disease claims. Ironically, we can't make that same claim with bees. We can say extends longevity, but this is where there's not common sense in government. I have an invention that can save hundreds of billions of dollars that protect bees from colony collapse, and we're roadblocked by regulation constantly. Oh, reduce the virus in bees, you have an antiviral drug, whatever. No, we haven't been able to find the antiviral drug. We think it's an entourage effect, an upregling, you know, basic immunity.

2:01:39And then your endogenous immune system, in this case of the bees, can fight the viruses. So, and this, I think, will translate into birds and to swine. So, is there resistance to these results? No, because your immunity is so complex. No, no, no, no, I mean publicly. Like you're saying, you can't make these claims, but if you have results. We have fantastic results, either for anyone to scientific, you know, to nature scientific reports. So, could you elaborate on what the resistance is? Well, the resistance is, it's complicated and that's political. The old school conventional wisdom is that if you have a drug like effect, then you have a undeclared drug in your product.

2:02:26That's funny. Yeah. So, even though it's from nature, even though bees go to a lot of the log for immune benefit, and now there's five or six papers I've been published on this after my discovery, showing that bees are doing this. Their bees are actually benefiting from mushroom miscellium. So, we're working with Washington State University, great people there. We're working with several funders. We have tested this now over and over again. This is an outdoor animal clinical study, double blind placebo controlled, using the micellium grown on rice or on sodas versus the sodas of the rice as a control, clearly, clearly a benefit.

2:03:09So, this is scalable. You can't harvest fruit bodies in a way that you can scale micellium. My psyllium is exponentially increased in my psyllium mass virtually every week, 10 times 10 times 10 times 10 times 10 times even 10 times 100 times 100 times 100 times 100 times 10, massively scalable. I think I have found something as a portal through my psychedelic experiences, that's fundamental to protecting life from this planet, is that the micellial networks are deep reservoirs, being able to immunologically enhance animals, where we don't have to have all these antiviral drugs, antibiotic drugs.

2:03:41Your endogenous immune systems are up -regulated, because over hundreds of millions of years, we've been interacting with these. It's our immunodeppression and suppression, because of all the factors, we know, bad diet, toxins, you know, lifestyle, all those things, that this is highly scalable. So now we're trying to navigate through the regulatory landscape. There was a strange committee that was in secret, met once a year for any new ingredient to add to bees, because bees make honey, humans can say honey, if we use our product, they could say we have an undisclosed drug in the honey, so whatever.

2:04:17But it also translates to wild bees. It turns out that aposmolephra, the honey bee, with the viruses, when they have the viruses, they go to flowers, frequently by bumblebees. So colony clops is happening not only with a cultivated honey bee, but it's spread to other bees. This is an ecological catastrophe of a viral pandemic that's spreading around the world. We have the solution right now, it's highly scalable, and this regulatory committee disappeared in the past two years. This is before the last administration was voted in, but they didn't tell anybody. So we had an application with them for two years to have this exempt, how many's gone?

2:04:57Whole committee has gone. And then they even tell us that it was gone. So we've had two years spending our thumbs witty for the respond. This is where we need to have common sense to come back into government. This is where government has too many hurdles to practical solutions that are demonstrable, scalable, and affordable, that can they retrial investment as massive, and yet we fear the FDA, we fear the USDA, because they are stuck in a rut, literally. Maybe they could use cell cyber in here to expand their horizons because they want to know the mode of action, and the mechanism of action. Well, we didn't know in the mechanism of action of aspirin into the 1970s, but it had a benefit.

2:05:40If it has a clear benefit and does not cause harm, then they should be exempted for scalability. Now, there's another factor to this, which is wonderful. There's a new startup company called Quorum, by my friend Chris, catchables disclosure, you know, I'm involved with them, but they have a metarysium, a fungus that kills mites. So it's also been approved by the USDA for thrips and other greenhouse insects. It's not toxic to fish, not toxic to humans. So the combination of using metarysium with the, a garicone, or a garicone on other polypore mushroom mycelium, we think has a great potential future.

2:06:19So I think there's a lot of resources in nature that can augment conventional agricultural practices. There's a lot of resources in nature that can augment conventional medical practices. They are not necessarily an opposition. What is an opposition, unfortunately, and you've alluded to this, is a lot of the pharmaceutical business interests are not excited about a not -for -product, reducing the need for vaccines, augmenting immunity. There is money in disease. That's always the problem, money. You can tell I'm passionate about this, because I have such a deliverable, provable solution that's scalable.

2:07:02I wonder, and I'm so, my article was published in 2018, and I tell my research team, you know, WTF, we are meeting with WSU constantly. And now we have renewed interest, thankfully, because of some big stakeholders in the almond industry, and every almond you eat visited a flower was visited by a bee. So the almond industry is in crisis right now, but it's not almonds, it's apples, it's cherries. It's across the board right now. Agriculture has been severely affected by these viral pandemics, and these same viral pandemics are mitigated, I believe, in commonality with these polypore mushrooms that grow in the woods.

2:07:39I wonder if that would also help animal agriculture, because the ubiquitous use of antibiotics is a real concern with people, with cows, with chickens. We had, there's a viral pandemic of a former bird flu, not H5 and 1, but another bird flu. I can't remember, I think it was H7 and 2, in Iowa and Minnesota, about 10 years ago. They were euthanizing, millions and millions of chickens, and turkeys, and ducks, and you can look this up. There's organic farm, and we gave 1 ¼ of a gram of a garalcon of mycelium per chicken and their feed. And we, that chicken, there's two big chicken hens, about 20 ,000 layers, birds that lay eggs, and it became an oasis of immunity.

2:08:28Those chickens were immune from bird flu. Wow, ¼ of a gram of mycelium, and we protected them. That's incredible. But a crazy thing happened. The USDA had an insurance policy to pay the chicken growers, and the chicken growers quickly learned that they could get an insurance check, lay off the employees, get the cash from lost profits, and so they were not incentivized. I've heard that from people that are deeply connected to that industry, that there was a bunch of euthanizations that didn't have to happen. Didn't have to happen. Yeah, and they did it, and they inflated this whole concept, because the numbers got grossly inflated, because they were euthanizing chickens for profit.

2:09:11Yeah, bird flu is a very serious issue. I know vaccines are a very hot subject, and I know you've spoken on that. You've had some excellent guests, by the way, excellent guests, or researchers on those. But I just want to give a thoughtful discussion between viruses and vaccines, which is worse, the virus or the vaccine. I'm a libertarian. I believe every family, every individual, has a right to make an informed decision. The problem that I see with the vaccine industry, the industrial vaccine complex, is the failure to disclose. I don't think Americans are stupid. I think Americans become stupid when they're not informed.

2:10:04My partner is a physician. She goes, giving hip B vaccines to a child makes no sense. This is sexually transmitted disease. Why are we giving a vaccine to a 10 -year -old? Right, baby. Or baby. Or a baby. And in med school, when anyone would mention that, why are we doing this, they were vilified. Right. vilified, shut down. It's like, what happened to thoughtful good science? It's just a reasonable question. Money happened. It's also these vaccine manufacturers are immune to the financial consequences of the side effects. Absolutely. We need to have full disclosure. Yeah. Now, let me go through a thought experiment.

2:10:41Okay. This is my opinion. Other people may just visually disagree with me. But let's do, there's two thought experiments I want to do. First one. No implies or say over the vaccine. One person dies. Hey, you took it for the home team. Sorry. One person dies out of a hundred thousand. Still ratio is pretty good. My mind, my judgment. Sorry. Again, you took it for the home team. One out of ten thousand. Okay. Still the ratio is pretty good. Okay. One out of a thousand. Okay. One out of a hundred. You're making me nervous. One out of ten. No, that's where I draw the line. I would say, forget it. That's it.

2:11:22Now, the contradiction that we have, the opposing forces here that we have, is that, is a better for society to have vaccinations to protect the commons, or is it better for you to have an individual decision for your family to protect yourself if you want to. If you are going to make that decision, you should have an informed decision based on the best of science. All vaccines and all companies should disclose what is the percentage of protection. I have a physician friend who says 30 % protection, but I'm sick for four or five days. I don't know. That's not worth it. 70 % protection. Okay. All right.

2:12:11You know, so everyone has to balance the risk -benefit ratio. But we need real data to be able to manifest ourselves. We need real data. We need full disclosure. Right. And for anyone to accuse another physician and vilify them because they ask a logical question and they are humiliated by the medical community is fundamentally unfair. What happened with good science? You have to follow the science. And this is so important. And that's why I think we're getting this confinities echo chamber where the voices that are loudest tend to be the stupidest sometimes. Or the most compromised. Yeah. And they drown out a descent.

2:12:50Yes. We all should be able to ask for the data and the information to make an individual decision. And science shouldn't be this ideological or ideologically captured thing. That's why I hate the term anti -vaxxers. I think as a pejorative term, I think as prejudice, you know, what about people who just want to have information? Oh, you're an anti -vaxxer. Yeah. Well, it's pushed just to scare people into compliance. Yeah. And that's the whole idea of having these pejoratives and throwing them around and no one wants to be labeled that. And so you immediately get scared. But enhancing innate immunity and healthy individuals to keep us healthy.

2:13:30Yeah. For them to be bad. That's better. Exactly. What that's the other problem that I had with the pandemic in general is that metabolic health was never discussed. It was always that there's only one way out of this. And having conversations with people that you could see, like visually look at them does not a medically healthy person. And these people are telling you the only way to health is through a medicine that they are financially incentivized to push. That's just crazy. And when those are the prominent voices that are on television and the media and you're getting this from politicians.

2:14:02And then on top of that, you've literally have the federal government censoring social media and not allowing people to have dissenting opinions, including people from Harvard and MIT and all the people in the Great Barrington study. Why don't we have an open source, national database showing the protection of vaccines and the risk of not getting one so individuals can make a decision. Right. Age -related, all these other factors, the data is there. Not making that data available to the public increases distrust. And so what the medical community has unfortunately done is they've read a bunch of dissenters by not giving full access to the information.

2:14:46Well, I think that really heightened during the pandemic because I don't think people had that much of a distrust for vaccines unless they knew someone who was vaccine injured. Unless they were gaslit and were told that they're child or someone else that got in vaccine injured, that that was not the cause of it. And those are the people that were very skeptical and they formed these tight community. But they were very scared to be open and public about it because they were destroyed. You know, I famously remembered Jenny McCarthy coming out and saying that she believes her child was vaccine injured.

2:15:15And the backlash was spectacular. Essentially, destroyed her career. Well, and it won experiments are always like, did it really happen or it was just a co -occurrence of some other factor that combined with the event of the vaccination. I mean, this is where you need to have high population studies. But those studies are available. Why they're cloaked in secrecy and why are they not made available? No, it's money. Yeah. I mean, the financial interest is astounding. The amount of money that's involved in it and the amount of money that they spend every year. They spend $8 billion dollars, the pharmaceutical drug industry.

2:15:49It spends $8 billion dollars just on advertising and on propaganda every year. That's so much money. And they spend so much money on television networks. You know, I mean, how many times the Anderson Cooper brought to you by Pfizer. You see these ads and that shapes the narrative, unfortunately. It does. But let me get there. Let's be clear from my point of view, the vaccines have done a lot of benefit. But they don't benefit everyone all the time, not all vaccines are the same. We have to be able to delineate thoughtful scientific method with the disclosed information. Absolutely. That's accessible to everyone so you can make the best judgment for yourself and your family.

2:16:36And you've got to remove this financial protection that they have from liability. I don't have that. They're going to just jack up the amount that they give people because there's profit in that, unfortunately. And then there are vaccines that are beneficial. Let's find out which ones there are. Which one, what can be mitigated in terms of like how can you make your overall metabolic health better before you even think about any of these things? We know for a fact that during the COVID crisis in particular, the people that have the most problem with it were the people that had comorbidities. For people that were obese, people that had all sorts of issues going on because of poor diet, poor lifestyle choices, and even genetic problems.

2:17:17Yeah. One of the immunologists we were working with told me something I didn't know is that we are immunocompromised or we're immunodepressed. Vaccines don't work very well. So those people become reservoirs for mutation. Which is the argument for why you don't give it to children or their babies because their immune system isn't even functional yet. Yeah. I'm, again, the hep B1 is a pretty clear example. That's a nutty one. There's a bunch of nutty ones. But the point is the vaccine schedule. If you look at what we used to take and you look at what happened when they lost their liability during the regular administration, all of a sudden the schedule goes way up.

2:17:55And they started adding things like hep B. And then you realize like, oh, it's very profitable to do that. Imagine how much more money you make if you're injecting everybody with a hep B vaccine if you sell hep B vaccines. Yeah. Simple mathematics. Yeah. Also, I met people in the farm industry who are extremely well -intended. Sure. Great scientists. Oh, but the scientists aren't the issue, right? They've also confessed to me that they face these humiliation, you know, being ostracized for just asking questions. Right. But again, full disclosure, let people make up their own minds. What's the cost benefit ratio?

2:18:32Is it one out of the million, one out of ten? Well, it's also, you should have to show all the studies too. You shouldn't just show the curated studies that you generated specifically with the goal of making an efficacy, like having a result that shows that this is effective. If you do 10 studies, you should show all 10 studies. Yeah. Why actually that's, why clinical trials dot gov? Yeah. Exists. Right. Is that we're chair picking, do we have studies in Bulgaria and India and Taiwan? Exactly. The farm would choose the clinical study that supported their narrow. Exactly. Exactly. And then they could use deceptive language to show the efficacy.

2:19:08But what I'm getting at is that we have such a reservoir of potential ways of supporting immunity in healthy individuals in nature. Right. That is not pharma based, based on the entourage effect. And say when you activate the receptors in your immune system, there's something that been official. I believe there's crosstalk between the receptors. The receptors are, oh, something really good is coming down the pipe. And they started creating an entourage effect at the collaboration. More receptors are activated that have collaboratively more benefits. And so it goes to the homeostasis and the uplifting of the homeostasis of the immune system that is a higher ready state of being able to respond.

2:19:53And then conventional medicine can work better. But using conventional medicine, not immunocompromised individual, asking their immune system to respond is an uphill battle. Right. Yeah. And it's interesting too that like natural remedies are automatically dismissed by people that think of themselves as intelligent, science -based people. Well, well, look at Argonisson. But isn't it weird though that like we dismiss it, but if you really understand the like, think about how many different pharmaceutical drugs are formulated because of discoveries of natural plants and the rainforests. The majority of them.

2:20:27And the most recent examples, the anti -malarial drug, against plant -up, plasmodium falsoparum from an Artemisia bush, and it's Artemisson. And it came from Artemisia. It's a planet extract. Isn't that wild? And yet science -based people will automatically dismiss what you would call a natural remedy, even though all of them, every kind of like, nothing exists on Earth that's not really natural. It's all coming from nature. I'm angry with you. I think that we're just reinventing molecules that have been assembled somewhere else. And we think it's, that's why the synthetic biologists, I'm honored to get that reward.

2:21:12Thank you, send bio -beta conference. That's why I think really kind of flipped them on their heads. Don't go down the rabbit hole of excluding natural products, thinking you can invent a molecule that's going to be better. In the theater of evolution, we've tested these natural products over tens of millions of years. They're literally our primary ancestors. And so we've got a pretty good, experiential data set there to be able to see what works or what doesn't. Many mushrooms, you know, not many, but some mushrooms are poisonous. You know, some are edible. It's a weird statistic about, and again, one to two percent fudge factor here, so please don't attack me all over the place.

2:21:53But there is 1 .5 million species of fungi. It's about 150 ,000 species of mushrooms that are estimated. So out of that five million on the extreme, 1 .5 million, less than 10%, 150 ,000, we've only identified about 15 ,000 species. So we want to identify 10 % of the mushrooms that exist today. Wow. Now, interestingly, of those 15 ,000 species, about 1 % are poisonous, one or two percent, one or two percent are psychoactive, and one to two percent are good edibles. So 97, 95, 94 percent, whatever the math shows are there, but they're not toxic. But mushrooms are molecular wizards. These are pharmaceutical factories that are covering huge numbers.

2:22:42And we know from their genomic analysis, 10 times more genes are activated in the sylium of lion's mane than in the lion's mane mushroom itself. Why is that? The mycelium has to navigate these thin threads through a hostile microbial environment, defending itself, until the mycelium mat becomes large enough at the end of a slice cycle to produce a fruit body. And then lion's mane mushrooms rot in four days. The mycelium that grew it could exist for years. The mycelium is the immune system of the mushroom, and as a result, we have a lot more compounds being expressed. Now some people say, well, not all those compounds are very beneficial.

2:23:21Uh -huh. Well, that's true, but now we've tested them enough that we can see real world benefit. Dean Wartish just published a study this past year on Alzheimer's using lifestyle adjustments, exercise, meditation, vitamins, and lions mane mushroom mycelium. Um, dramatically significant benefit and slowing down the progression of Alzheimer's through lifestyle, vitamins, and using lions mane mushroom mycelium. Now, which did what? Yes, you can try to analyze that, but you'd have to separate every single little component to see which one's most significant. And yet, where's the studies combining 10 vaccines or 20 vaccines in our child to see which one is actually conferring the benefit or causing an adverse effect?

2:24:14We have to, at some point, you know, don't let that perfect be the enemy of the good. At some point, if it has a demonstrable positive effect, like we have with bees, and it protects agriculture and extends the longevity of bees, and it supports the endogenous immune system and healthy individuals. Isn't that good? Why do we have to get lost in the details of trying to explain it? If we can't explain it, that we won't let it be out there for the benefit of the comments, they wear cross purposes. This is where science needs to have common sense and the government and the regulatory industry needs to have common sense.

2:24:52And we get that by exemptions, emergency exemptions, and we should get that from emergency exemptions right now. We are on a bee apocalypse. We are, folks, 67 % of beehives lost in Montana. If that was a human population, all hands on deck. So it is, and there is a transference of viruses between animal species. We're seeing that in real time. Now the scariest thing is, is when you have multiple viral infections in one person who's immunocompromised and you have horizontal gene transfer. This is what the virologists, very, amongst themselves, they talk about this all the time, but the public is not aware.

2:25:37You could have individuals and when you have so many dairy farmer workers exposed, so many people in contact, clustered, clustered clusters of animals and farms, you have so many potential patient zeroes. The patient zeroes a person who is the nexus for spreading a mutated form of a virus. Horizontal gene transfer is happening all the time now. Now it's concentrated, it's accelerating. It's an exponential increase of risk. Bill Gates has talked about this. Many other researchers have talked about this. This is really something we should pay attention to. And I think the simplest, easiest, scalable way is enhance immunity and healthy individuals.

2:26:22And by doing so, I think you can let your endogenous immune system work better. And I think conventional medicine will work better also in concert. Well, it also speaks to the problem with industrial agriculture in general. These are unnatural environments where these animals are living in their own waste on a consistent basis, which is, it enhances the possibility of disease. And the generative agriculture enhances the possibility of harmony amongst nature. And then the counter argument is that we have better nutrition. We can feed the world so that people are more people happier. Again, we're at this contrast of opposites.

2:27:08And I wish I had the easy solution, I think I had the solution for bees. I think it's scalable for protecting chickens and livestock. I hope, you know, and we're now designing clinical studies on the path to wanting clinical studies with bird flu using a garacan. We don't have the results, so I'm not making a medical claim here. But the evidence so far is so encouraging. And I'm working with top notch virologists, absolutely some of the best virologists who came to me because they saw the paper and nature of scientific reports. And I thought, ah, fun, John, fun, it could help us, you know, protect ourselves like in viruses.

2:27:47So they came through the back door, the scientific community, not Joe Roganlister, they might be, I don't know, maybe they are now. But they came to me through the scientific literature saying, we should try this with people. So those are the scientists that I like there, open -minded enough. They're rather than just a molecular geneticist, you know, synthetic bio people. They're actually saying, well, it's a provable result. We don't know why, but we should explore this because we can argue for 100 years about why, or we can deliver it tomorrow and have it up positive effect. Yeah, what makes sense?

2:28:22I have to ask you this question, it's unrelated, but I always wanted to know, why do morale mushrooms grow around burns? That is such a great question. And you know what, that's the question that we've been asking for so long. The problem of morale mushrooms. I love morale mushrooms too. You know, they are poisonous. Unless you cook them. Really? Oh boy, that's important to know. Many people have died from morale mushrooms. Oh, yeah. Wow. That's crazy. You don't want to cook morale mushrooms in a closed kitchen without ventilation. There are volatile compounds coming out of the morals. Totally the nature and cooking.

2:28:59Delicious. But many, many examples of this. In Japan, I was in Japan, you know, 15 years ago. So if you don't have an overhead fan, don't fry morals in the kitchen. Or you should open up the window, but just don't inhale the fumes. Wow. Many, the North American Micological Association is the Association for Canada, Mexico, the United States. And there's a poison control group in that. And they collect all the details. This namico .org and AMYCO .org. And they're the go to place. Ironically, because of hippo rules, the mycologists have been disconnected from the patients and the medical community.

2:29:41Because now there is a firewall between them. We can anonymize the case reports, but there's a firewall of information because of hippo and disclosure of the patient conditions that has really inhibited the flow of information. Nevertheless, namico .org, North American Micological Association, and AMY .co .org. And my professor, Dr. Michael Buge, is a giant, you know, in consulting with, for adverse effects in mushroom poisonings. So, Morales are delicious, but to answer your question, you know, we, Morales, mycelium seems to be everywhere. And then for horse burns, and they come up. Right. Where were they before?

2:30:26Right. What do they do? Do they exist in places that don't have burns? Yes. But rarely. No, we think all the time. All the time. We think the Morales. Very common amongst burns. They're everywhere a foreshower. Right. And when the forest burn, it knocks down all the competition. And it becomes very alkaline. The absence of organic material and competitors, the competitor fungi, the change in the pH. And so, I think we think also from the guy in hypothesis point of view, it's a great way of nature to rebound because they're sent full. They attract animals, they attract insects. And birds come in, drop seeds, and then they become an oasis point.

2:31:08For the regeneration of an ecosystem. This never underestimate the intelligence of nature. The nature has figured this out. You know, nature does not exist in a vacuum. There's always these repopulation vectors happening. And it's collaborative. It's not competitive. There is competition between the fungi, but when the competitors are knocked down, the themerels come up. Come up. That's fascinating. Another fascinating thing is that the largest living organism on earth in the Pacific Northwest. Yeah, armillary, a story. Yeah. Some people call it Gallicot, two different things. Yeah, I flew over, it's a 2 ,200 acre, you know, basically a clear cut.

2:31:43They killed all the trees. In my book, My Sillium Running, I have the best photographs of the largest organ in the world. And I hired an airplane. First time I couldn't see it because I was too low. Second time I'd aspire all up. Can you explain what it is, people? It's a honey mushroom that's a parasite on trees. It's edible. The honey mushrooms on hardwoods tend to taste better. But this one is on connoisseurs. And it's a comes up in clusters. It forms black, black rhizomorphs, black My Silliums called laminated root rot. Many listeners here know what that is. It kills fruit trees. But this is a moroting parasite that created a contiguous mat over 2 ,200 acres.

2:32:26And in this case, it killed all the trees so they went ash and gray in color. And they dried out and they're dead. Because of fire hazard from lightning strikes, the forest service came in and they cut all the dead trees. And they created this beautiful outline of the largest My Sillium mat in the world because you could see where the dead trees were. Can we see what that looks like? An image? I'm trying to find a good picture. It's also in My Sillium Running. So, but anyhow, that's an example. Oh, kill the trees. That's terrible. But it created grasslands for ungulates. Right. You also deer, the moose, elk and come in.

2:33:07So it's way of, I think it's a way of this rebalancing of nature. Right. Where you deal with millions and millions of acres. Millions and millions of acres. There is a real big problem with the bark beetle right now. You know, that's a problem. It's the ecosystems are shifting in response to stress. And, you know, with our minds view of only one lifetime, we're very myopic. I think we need to look at the thousand year. I mean, what is the lens of time that we actually look at ecosystems? What's the right lens to use? Depends upon your vested interests, you know, as a human, as a deer, as an ecosystem.

2:33:49That could be very different. Right. It's just such a fascinating thing. The largest known organism on Earth exists in the Pacific Northwest. It has one cell, Walter. That's so nuts. Think about its immune system. You don't have found out recently that I had no idea. Aspen trees, when you see Aspen trees, it's one plant. Yeah, it's one contiguous thing. There are the two competitors for that title, by the way. In the nuts. There are the two competitors. When you see these, I always thought when you see Aspen forests, that it's so a bunch of different individual Aspen trees. Right. Nope. No, you know, there's all sorts of amazing discoveries.

2:34:28Here's one that blows my mind. And I had to write it down because it's a new species. There is a fungus that's related to Erogot. It's in the cleavage of the Taseae. And it was found by a student at Western Virginia University. It is in morning glory seeds that produces LSD. Well, Terrence talked about that. No, this is before Terrence talked about more inglorious seeds and having psychedelic experiences. It turns out it's a symbiotic fungus that's growing in it. It's called, it's called Pera Glomdula clandestina. And don't they? What a great name. Clandestina, the clandestin. Don't they do something to commercial morning glory seeds to make sure that people don't trip on them?

2:35:15I don't know. I think they do. I think that's another thing that Terrence is talking about. How gross it was. They alter morning glory seeds because they knew that people were using them for psychedelics. Well, they sterilized them and used a fungus side. That would make sense. Yeah. A graduate student that need to give her credit as a Western Virginia University, Korean Hazel. Yeah, it is. Dan and he's got it. Panneum. Yes. There it is. Look how young she is. Very young. She made a discovery here to fore unknown to science. And not only to produce this LSD compounds, it is a symbiotic fungus helping the morning glory survive.

2:35:52Amazing. Think about every young person out there, the field of myology is underfunded, understudied, under reported underutilized. This is a fantastic treasure trove of new potential discoveries. I have long stated I think the field of myology should be funded as well as the computer industry because it's so fundamental to the survival of our species. It's that big. No, I couldn't agree with you more. Did you you're aware of Brian Mererescu, right? That was one of the more fascinating things that they found in those when they studied those vases that they found or got in them. Yeah. From the Illusinian mysteries.

2:36:33Has Brian tripped out? I don't know. You have to ask him. I love it when scientists and researchers don't admit that they've tripped. But I can I don't know if it's a non -admission. I think in his case he wanted to be objective so he wanted to study these things without being as I was worried about being labeled as someone who's promoting them because they like it. Well, an extreme example but I have some merit. I mean would you rather be taught by an airline pilot who has experience or someone who just wrote a book? So the late Roland Griffiths is a dear friend, John Hopkins. He is credited as being the big pioneer for psilocybin in medical research.

2:37:19When I asked him if you tripped on psilocybin, that is when I was at his house in the backyard. I said he just smiled. He said I'm not going to answer that question. Well then after he died, I met some of his friends. And he goes oh yeah, Roland tripped. But he didn't want to tell anyone because for the fear that he could lose his objectivity or be criticized. Yeah. He was a craftsman had an interesting perspective on that too. When I first met him, he was very reluctant to talk about DMT experiences that he had personally because he had run those FDA studies. That's a document. He was documented in DMT the spirit molecule of the book.

2:37:59He was very reticent to talk about it and then he sort of came out of the closet on that. Fully. And then when I asked Roland's friends, well where did he like to trip? Because you're in a hospital environment with all these doctors and you know your stress levels go up just being in a hospital environment. And he said, well, Roland's favorite place to trip was on a mountain top with three friends with a beautiful view and a fire. Perfect. Perfect. What's the quality of experience? Now again, this is for healthy normals. Not people who need to have medical assistance, but there's some very good psychotherapist out there and psychonauts.

2:38:38And the psychotherapist says the therapy movement. The Center, the California Institute for Integrative Studies, C -I -S, I think dot org or dot EU has a program training psychedelic therapist. You don't have to be a medical physician to be able to hold someone's hands to have a guided experience. Now there's a lot of Charlotteson South there. It'd be warm folk. There's a lot of problems. That's a lot of problems. But there are some excellent therapists out there. And for many people who can't get into a clinical study, be careful. Consult a qualified medical practitioner with that on the record.

2:39:23But a lot of people have benefited without having to go through a traditional medical, you know, constructs of a hospital. Right. To have benefit. And then they're reluctant to talk about it because the illegality of it, unfortunately. And, you know, if you have a job that is where you have to be taken seriously. That was, you could be losing your medical license. But the University of Washington, Tony Back, Anthony Back published a clinical study on using psilocybin for physicians and nurses who were emotionally harmed and distressed by people angry at them because of COVID in the hospital. And they were spit upon and they were attacked viciously, physically sometimes in the hospital.

2:40:11They at PTSD, but just trying to provide good medical support. So he did a clinical study that was published this last year, showing the benefits because the nursing physicians, when they got out of the system, they can't provide medical care society loses. So they were able to reconcile the emotional harm that they experienced from angry patients and being assaulted. And they were able to then return many of them back into the medical profession, you know, with a, you know, healing from that. So it realized aggression and anger affects everyone around you. The advantage of psilocybin, I think, just like a pebble and the pond of a tragedy creates ripples of distress throughout society.

2:40:59When someone who is highly adversely affected, angry and, you know, violent and all these anti -social behaviors, when they suddenly switch just like that, it's a pebble and the pond of positivity. A great example, a law enforcement officer by the name of Sarko from Boston just received his religious exemption for using psychedelics. So he is a police officer and his chief of police is now retired. He has been an advocate because he saw Sarko who experienced all these negative, he's loved to have him on the show sometime. He can really speak authoritatively to other law enforcement officers saying this has helped me.

2:41:48So I have a law enforcement officer. I'd love to talk to him. I love to, he's the real deal. I have a RCMP officer friend and Vancouver who took me to his favorite psilocybin mushroom shop in Vancouver. I couldn't believe it. We're walking this psilocybin mushroom shop. They didn't know who I was and thankfully, and they were selling the stamina stack, which is kind of weird because I have my name on it. And we walk in there and say this is where I tell all my law enforcement officers come to take to get their psilocybin. I don't know. I said I'm sorry. I'm trying to juxtaposition this. How does this work?

2:42:26And he goes, well, you know, this is good perhaps for ice also. He said, you know how, you know, in the United States, law enforcement officers are aggressive and mean. They tend to intimidate you and subjectate you. He said, we found a better way up here. He has through psilocybin. And so, what do you do? He says, well, we have learned the following. Now when I have to arrest somebody, I know they have a warrant out for them. I walk up to them and I say, and I always walk up with a smile on my face. Never a harsh look. All of the smile on my face. I said, I have good news and I have bad news.

2:43:02What do you want to hear first? He said invariably, if anybody wants to say, tell me the good news. And he goes, the good news is you can finish your cup of coffee. And they go, okay, what's the bad news? Dude, I got to arrest you. And he goes, the amount of cooperation and the reduction of the threat level for the safety of the law enforcement and the cooperation that they get in the SWAD car. When these people are just shooting this shit in law enforcement officers, I know you're doing your job, but wow, thank you for being so nice arresting me. He said, it's a game changer. It's reduced the threat to us physically of making arrests.

2:43:41It makes sense. It doesn't escalate. It doesn't escalate. They de -escalate it. And he goes, you won't believe the things I learned from these people who are arresting now, you know, who tell me things that never have gotten out of interrogation, but they were so respected. And the fact that they had to do their job without becoming adversarial. Yeah. Note to self, right? Note to everyone, right? Note to everyone. All conflicts involve two or more people. It does, they're not, it's not just this is the only way to react to something. It's how you react, how they react to your reaction. There's a cascading effect.

2:44:22Well, I have great faith in humanity. I've seen the, I have seen the best, I mean, I've seen people, most people are great. Most people are great and they're better when they go through a social. I've an experience that amplifies the best of people. And it also helps them resolve the lot of the baggage you can think of the inflammatory actions of the anger and you did something and you don't want to tell anybody, but you're haunted by that. You inadvertently harm somebody and you went off the deep end, you harm somebody else. It's a cascading event of harm. Yeah. And when you, these people are resolved, like, that was a bad chapter in my life.

2:45:03I had one really bad day, or maybe a series of them, but that does not define me who I am as a person. I have a better self and it's now and in the future. Right. It's not in the past. Yeah, that's the perspective we should all have. And that's the thing that we should all strive for. Be the best version of you that you can be. And you, we've all made terrible mistakes in the past, but the idea is to have learned from them and to be a better person because of that. Well, the medical community has come together on this on psychedelics. The law enforcement communities come together. You know, I, it's positive.

2:45:39It's positive. We're in a positive direction. I had my interview by the DEA and I thought they were the boogie man and seven days for good reason, by the way. But I shouldn't say that. But I went through my background check and the DEA has such a sense of humor. It's like, okay, Paul, you come out clean. You have a don't have a record. Everything was fine. You know, but we have to talk to you about something that happened in 1994 in Des Moines, Washington. Really? Yeah. I'm like, what happened in 1994 in Des Moines, Washington? You said, are you sure you don't remember? And they're they're role -playing here.

2:46:20I didn't know it at the time. I go, no, I don't remember. I want to sometimes people just confess to something that because they're fishing. I don't know. I said, I have no clue. No clue. You guys are you sure? I mean, this is your official response. You don't remember. I said, no, I don't remember. It says, didn't you get a speeding ticket? And I said, I paid that. It was from those machines. It was from my camera. I know I paid it. I could dig up the receipt. It was like 35 bucks. They just roared for laughter. They're just fucking with you. They're fucking with me. What they told me is that we don't know shit about mushrooms or solsibon.

2:46:57We're an enforcement agency. Many of us don't agree with this. Change the law. We want to go after syndicates. We want to go after fentanyl. Right. We want to go after these, you know, these, these, these, these things that are not beneficial in any way. Right. Keeper form said we don't want to hurt the source that is healing us. But they won't fuck around when it comes to money transactions. Once you involve money, then the DEA is going to be involved. By you're involved in research and we have strict guidelines. I had DEA license in a, you know, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978. Through Dr. Michael Buick at the African State College, and they were much more liberal.

2:47:38I could grow tons of solsibon mushrooms and collect them. That's why we did a series of conferences. I was the only one who had a DEA license. So we did these conferences, collecting all these experts together with Albert Hoathman there, our Gordon Wasson, Richard Evans Shulties, you know, Dothman Ott, Terrence McKenna, but I had the license to be able to possess solsibon with my professor. And so we would have all the solsibon. So we did these educational events, you know, academic with citizen scientists and psycho knots coming together. What's really different is we just had a, for the Psychedelic Science Maps Conference in Denver, 8 ,500 people.

2:48:23Back in the 1970s, at any moment, we were afraid that a SWAT team would break down the doors and arrest everybody. We existed in a high state of paranoia, because I was a warrant drugs with Richard Nixon. And now it's totally different. Now you have law enforcement offers, you have Rick Perry, you have all these in New Mexico. They legalized the prescription of solsibon. This is a citizen's movement. It's a democratic movement for the freedom of consciousness, and everyone should have a right to be able to practice. And where do you draw individual use from religious use? Solsibon mushrooms are very important for my own personal religion.

2:49:09I feel that this is central to my religious belief. So I think this is where the government means to back off. If you're using it for your spiritual development, whether you're a Buddhist or a Christian or a Islamic, you know, or a Judaic, you know, this informs your spiritualality, reduces crime, it reduces harm, reduces, you know, potential for violence. This is a game changer. I think we're in the solsibon revolution, and solsibon mushrooms are fundamentally different than MDMA. And I began just because I began so long and those hard issues, I just think this is a medicine for our times that can make a paradigm shift for a better society.

2:49:55I couldn't agree more. That's a good way to end this. Thank you Paul. Show, hold your book up there because this is the latest of eight books that you've written. Silasibon mushrooms in their natural habitats. Paul, you're a gem. You really are. You're such an important person. And I think through the conversations that you and I have had, and then you've had it on many other podcasts as well. Millions and millions of people have gotten to understand what this is really all about. And I think your role in educating people is enormous. But let's be very careful with that. I'm a one -knowledge keeper, literally in a string of knowledge keepers.

2:50:31Yes. So many people have died, been harmed, and indigenous people. I am carrying the torch and I want to pass this torch with pride, with dignity, with respect, with kindness, with positivity to the next generation. The next generation needs to be empowered with this. And they can do an excellent job knowing what's happened in the past and for telling what we could be in the future, the best of the best. I think you're doing just that. So thank you. I appreciate you very much. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Bye everybody.

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