#2352 - James Talarico

26:53But you're also talking about rape and incest. That's right. Right. So you're, you're talking about a woman's right to choose whether or not she carries a baby when it was not her choice to begin with. That's right. And it's why I think that almost everyone in this country is pro -choice to some extent. Because the polling indicates that the vast majority of Texans, the vast majority of Americans, support exceptions for rape, incest, or threats to the mother self. Now, I've had arguments with people that don't support that though, which is interesting. They say the argument that they give is that two wrongs don't make a right.

27:33And, you know, it's a crazy argument because they're, they're even talking about it with underage girls. But at least they're consistent. Again, if you believe that a fetus is a person. Now, well, certainly there's a potential to be a person, right? Well, and a fetus is alive in terms of just biologically alive. But we do have literally trillions of living organisms in us right now. But the question is, have the potential to be a full grown human being? Absolutely. But the question is, is a fetus or is an embryo a person with full legal rights that trump the rights of a woman? Because if, or a girl, as you mentioned, because if you're, if you're a 16 -year -old girl who's been raped, does that embryo or that fetus, does it have, does its rights trump the rights of that girl?

28:18Right. Or the lie. And I just, I say no. I think most Americans say no. And to me that exposes kind of the lack of support for fetal personhood. Again, we can have conversations about limits to abortion, all those things. But I, I do think it's clear that most Americans believe that a woman or a girl should have the autonomy to make those decisions about their own body. I think most Americans probably would agree with that. But I think also most Americans are very uncomfortable with the concept of late -term abortions. Sure. Yeah. And I would say, what is your, what are your thoughts on late -term abortions?

28:54Well, I think if you look at the data of the late -term abortions that happen are almost exclusively to save the life of the mother. Because I mean, now you're talking about people who have picked out a name, who have bought a crib, people who want this baby. And so the only time this happens is for, is for, you know, immediate life -threatening medical reasons. Right. But there are exceptions to that, right? There are people that change their mind. Well, and I, you know, I think within Roe vs. Wade there was a legal framework for states to be able to make decisions about how you regulate abortion.

29:33And so if a state decides that they wanted to ban elective late -term abortions, if those things happen, then that was completely fine within the framework of Roe vs. Wade. But we're not having that conversation, right? We're having a conversation about a total extreme ban on abortion. But Roe vs. Wade, the thing about Roe vs. Wade, though, was Roe vs. Wade. The issue was that it was a federal thing, and that it was supposed to be up to the states to make their own decisions. Right. So how did it get passed in Texas that it was, I think, at six weeks, right? Which is very early. Well, at this point, with a lot of women don't even realize that they're pregnant.

30:14Well, and this one, and that was the original ban that passed, but then Texas had a trigger law in place, which was if Roe vs. Wade is overturned, which it was, then Texas would automatically ban abortion in all cases. So no longer a week by week framework, it was a total ban. So there was that original ban that went into place, but then that was because Roe was overturned was then replaced by a total ban. So in Texas, again, we're not recognizing any of the shades of gray in this conversation. It is the most extreme ban in the country. And we've seen the devastating consequences of it. We saw Texas women who were forced to wait in emergency room parking lots until they went into sepsis.

31:05I mean, we've seen women banned from using public highways to travel out of state to get an abortion. I mean, that's what they were just trying to do in Lubbock was prevent women from using public highways. Well, there's also the thing where they were trying to go after women that traveled to other states. Right. Yes. And even if there was no evidence, like say if a woman travels to see her in laws or her parents or something like that, and then has a miscarriage, that was that to me was very creepy that if this woman had traveled somewhere where abortion is legal and then lost her baby, they would then be accused.

31:45Even if they had not had an abortion, they would be questioned and that to me is incredibly insensitive, especially when you take into consideration that some of these women might not have had abortions at all, they might have just lost the baby, which happens quite often where there are miscarriages. It's interesting you bring up miscarriages because if I'm again trying to take people out the word trying to assume the best intentions and hear a good faith argument on the other side of this, if my concern is with the life of an embryo or the life of a fetus, the greatest threat to that life is a miscarriage.

32:23I mean, if your concern is how many embryos or fetuses we're losing, the number that we lose to miscarriage versus the number we lose to abortion, I mean, it's dwarfed. And so I'm always interested why the pro -life movement is not more interested in figuring out how we prevent more miscarriages because if again, if your concern is that embryonic life seems like finding ways to prevent miscarriage, which we have best practices that can do it. Right, making sure people are covered by health insurance. Once their pregnancy starts, I mean, that is a huge opportunity to prevent miscarriages. You're not going to prevent all of them, but there are things we could do to stop it.

33:07And so the fact that all the attention is on abortion, rather than on some of these other things that maybe we could all agree on, to me, again, it makes me suspicious about the true motives of some of these politicians and some of these activists who are pushing some of these bodies. And even if, as we call it, it changes the way a fashion issue possessed, because that doesn't seem like it's about children, it doesn't seem like it's about mothers, and women, and girls, it does seem like it's about control. And I think that's what we see across this Christian nationalist movement is controlling what you do with your own body, controlling what you read, controlling what you learn, controlling what you travel, I mean, this is religion at its worst, is trying to control people and what they do.

33:48How do you define Christian nationalism? What is that to you? Yeah, so I think there's lots of different ways you could describe it. The way I define it is a little broader. I say Christian nationalism is the worship of power, whether it's social power, economic power, political power, in the name of Christ. And I think it's relevant to describe it this way because it's something we've struggled with within the Christian church from the very beginning. So the first followers of Jesus didn't even call themselves Christians. They called themselves the way because their crucified teacher had taught them a different way of being human, a different way of relating to other people, of understanding your relationship to neighbor and to God.

34:33And this transformed them. They became these peculiar people as how the Bible describes it because they didn't participate in the economy, the military, the culture. They were persecuted because they turned the world upside down. Again, that's how it's described in Acts. But 300 years after the Roman Empire crucified Jesus, Emperor Constantine made Christianity the official religion of that very same empire, the same empire that crucified Jesus. So this is 300 years later and now Christianity is the official sponsor of the empire of Western civilization. Do you think Constantine was a Christian, like legitimately, or do you think that he was using it?

35:18It's always hard to tell with politicians. And I say this as a politician myself. When was Constantine baptized? Well, he was baptized, I don't know the year, but he was baptized after he had this vision before a decisive battle when he saw the cross and decided that his soldiers would put the cross as part of their emblem and then they won that battle, right? Which, you know, who knows if it was because of his vision or not. But it started a trend which we've struggled with for literally more than 1500 years of powerful people, you know, emperors, billionaires, dictators, mega church pastors, using religion to protect their own wealth and power.

36:08Yeah. And to me, Christian nationalism is just the latest iteration of that, whether it's the Ten Commandments Bill, whether it's the Bill, I don't know if you read about this, a Bill that we passed that allows schools to replace school counselors with untrained, unsupervised religious chaplains. Sometimes people who go online and become a chaplain within, you know, five minutes. You know, that to me again is an example of Christian nationalism. It's using the state, it's using political power to elevate one religious tradition over all the others. It's using governmental power to dominate our neighbors instead of loving them as ourselves, which is exactly what we're called to do as Christians.

36:49And then of course, most recently we saw this Bill that defunded public schools here in Texas to subsidize private Christian schools. And to me again, that is a Bill that's right in the middle of this Christian nationalist movement to erode the separation of church and state and force a certain interpretation of Christianity on everybody against their wills. Yeah, there's this narrative that this is a Christian nation. This is, it was founded as a Christian nation. And I think they call upon that when they're making these decisions and talking about it in this very particular way. Yeah, and I think no one would disagree that Christianity was influential in the founding of this country.

37:40And it's still influential. I mean, it's suffused throughout our culture, our politics. It is a central part of who we are as a nation. But I think it's really important to clarify that we were not founded as a Christian nation. We were founded as a nation where you are free to be a Christian or a Jew or a Muslim or a Sikh or a Buddhist or an atheist. I mean, that is the promise of America is that we are this multicultural melting pot where no one is told how to pray and no religion is elevated over the others. It's also important to point out that it wasn't in the pledge of allegiance until communism was an issue in this country.

38:19Yeah, and to be fair, the Declaration of Independence does mention a creator. And now it doesn't necessarily mention the Christian God, but it does mention a creator. I think probably in a deliberate attempt to be less sectarian and more open. I mean, a lot of our founders, if we're being honest, some of them weren't religious at all, you know, Thomas Paine. And then a lot of them weren't really what we would consider Christians today. A lot of them were deists where they, you know, they saw the, they saw God as this impersonal clockmaker who created the universe and stepped away. Clockmaker. And I'm not, I'm not.

38:58That's an interesting way of describing it. Well, and I'm not, I'm not casting a version that. Yeah, where did you come up with that? I think this is, this is how deists would describe it because the universe has a clockmaker, really? Yeah, that the universe is, and it's because they were enlightenment thinkers. So they, they were enthralled by physics and, and the natural scientists, scientists. And they saw that the universe fit together in this perfect way, almost like a clockwork. Or a watch. And, and so they assume that God was this, this watchmaker, this clockmaker, and then kind of stepped away from, from God's creation.

39:37That is a very different view. It's not an invalid view. I don't mean to cast aspersions on that view, but it's very different than, than a lot of Christians today who have a personal relationship with God and feel God's intervention in, in our lives, in our world. And so those are, those are very different kinds of religious. And so for Christian nationalists today to say, you know, that our founders were these evangelical Protestant Christians, it's just not quite historically accurate. These were enlightenment thinkers. They had their own suspicions of religion. I mean, Thomas Jefferson created his own Bible where he took out all the miracles.

40:16Really? Yeah. He also enslaved. Well, yeah. I mean, and then all these guys had. Pretty anti -Christian. I would say so. But again, Christianity was used to justify slavery. It was also used by abolitionists to tear it down, right? Christianity was used by bull Connor and, and, and white officials in the South to maintain Jim Crow. And it was also used by Dr. King and the civil rights movement to tear down that system. So, you know, faith, it's really in the, the hands of the user can be used to do a lot of damage to people, but it can also be used to move us toward a more just and, and loving world.

40:59That's where it gets weird, right? Until like we need someone who interprets faith in a way that is beneficial for all and not personally beneficial or beneficial to their ideology or the narrative that they're trying to push, right? Well, and I honestly think, if I'm being my most hopeful self, that Gen Z and, and millennials, young people are going to be the ones to lead us out of this. Because why? Because, let me, because, because of the TikTok. Because they're addicted to video games. Because, because there is power and disillusionment. Okay. Because that's fertile ground. So let me, okay.

41:39Let me back up. So, in, in my faith tradition, Jesus is not, not just a great teacher. Jesus is the embodiment of the pattern of the universe. Right? This is trippy, trippy stuff. Right. Trippy stuff. Yeah. He, in his person, his life, his death, his teachings, that we somehow learn something about God, this ultimate reality. And Jesus's life, again, in our tradition, the milestones are incarnation. That's Christmas, right? When, when God takes human form, incarnation, by the way, is not just limited to Jesus. It's everybody, right? Everybody bears the image of the sacred, right? Joe Rogan does, James Salarika does every listener to this podcast bears the image of the sacred, made in the image of God, a radical view, right?

42:31So that's incarnation. The second is crucifixion, right? That's good Friday, where Jesus, because he confronts the powerful, is executed on across a humiliating death along with other criminals. And then the last step is resurrection. That's something new and beautiful rises from those ashes. So those three things, incarnation, crucifixion, resurrection, that's the pattern of the universe. Again, just take religion out of it for a second. Let's just think like a physicist or a biologist, creation, destruction, recreation. I mean, that is the story of the physical universe. It's the story of our lives, right?

43:15That we are all headed toward a brick wall at the end of this, right? There is birth, death, rebirth. Hindus would say reincarnation, right? This pattern of reality is something that's recognized across traditions. I say all of this in response to your question, because all of us in our face start out with order, disorder, and then reorder, if we get to that last step. All of us kind of inherited a faith from our parents. It was usually pretty stable. We didn't ask any questions, and it was comforting, right? You were a childish in the best sense of that word, innocent. You grow up, you have experiences, you meet new people, you're exposed to new ideas.

44:03Suddenly, you start to question all those things that you were taught. And now you have disorder, disillusionment, right? That maybe what I was told wasn't real. Maybe this isn't right. Maybe I've got a question, everything. And that's healthy and essential. You need that crucifixion to break apart what was there before. That third step of resurrection, reincarnation, rebirth, reorder, however you want to describe it, to me, it feels like that's what we're on the precipice of. And it does feel like young people in particular, the ones that are asking these questions. Because young people have always, on every major issue, have usually been the ones who have been able to kind of think outside the box and see things anew.

44:45But it does feel like they are waking up to how broken organized religion is. And they are starting to yearn for something bigger and something better and something that's more true and more honest. I hear from people all day long, yes, on TikTok, but also in real life where they're just like, I want a relationship with God and I'm just not sure how to find that. I mean, I think that's maybe it was the pandemic, but there is something brewing out there where people, they're hungry for something bigger and deeper. So again, that's me on my hopeful days. I also have my days where I'm more cynical, but what happens on your cynical days?

45:29So I'm in my fourth term in the Texas house, so I'm in there two year terms, so that's eight years. In my second term, I kind of had a crisis of confidence, I guess. It was a brutal session. It was a lot of really vicious fights on the house floor. A lot of really terrible bills, the abortion ban, which we just talked about was passed in my second term. I just kind of, I honestly lost faith in the impact I was making and maybe even in democracy as a whole, whether this thing was even going to work, this idea that we were all going to try to solve our conflicts nonviolently and peacefully through a political process.

46:19I don't know, all of that kind of, I started a doubt in a profound way with the work I was doing. And throughout my life, whenever I've felt that doubt, I've always fallen back on faith. Faith is the thing that is kind of the foundation for me. And so in that second term, I had thought about quitting altogether. I thought about resigning my seed and just going off to do other things that maybe would be more fruitful. But there are a lot of praying and a lot of soul searching and a lot of meditation. I made a slightly different choice, which was to go to seminary and go back to school and go through the process of becoming a minister.

46:55My granddad was a Baptist minister in South Texas and so it was a part of my upbringing. And I had really not thought about doing it myself, but I think I had just loving thy neighbors really hard sometimes. And the work I do in the legislature is my attempt to love my neighbor through the bills I pass, through the work that I do on prescription drugs, on childcare, on public schools, on justice reform. But I was losing faith on whether I was actually doing what I came here to do. And so I made that decision to go to seminary to follow Jesus's first commandment, which is to love God. Those are the two commandments he gave us, love God and love neighbor.

47:41And as a seminarian and a lawmaker, I'm kind of, I'm starting to figure out how these two commands, how they relate to each other, how they sustain each other. You need that inner life, which I feel like I'm cultivating at seminary. And then you also need this outer life of how does that impact your relationships and the work you do out in the world. And you really can't have one day at the other because if you do the second one, the workout in the world, you can burn out so easily, which I think I was about to burn out in that second term. If it's, you can burn out if it's not sustained by that love of God.

48:16And again, I don't mean God as that word is charged for a lot of people. I don't mean like a sectarian religious orthodoxy definition. I just mean that ground of your being, whatever that is. Anyway, I don't know if it answers your original question. But what was the main struggle? Like what were you facing in the house that was causing you to have this crisis? Well, so there were several bills I mentioned the abortion ban. Was it few others? The human beings though? Was it the actual... So the bill, this was the straw that wrote the camel's back. Toward the end of that legislative session, my Republican colleagues brought a...

48:57Again, this is the way I would describe it, a voter suppression bill. Making it more difficult to vote in the state of Texas. Again, Texas is probably the hardest place to vote in the country. Just in terms of the paperwork, the requirements, the hoops you got to jump through. How so though? There's a whole host of things. You know, the fact that we don't have online voter registration in the state. One of a lot of other states do. I mean, think of all the things you do online. Voter registration is not one of them. The IDs that now count for registering a voter voting are very selective. So for instance, you got to conceal the carry license.

49:32That license counts as ID, which I agree that it should. But a student ID from a college or university doesn't count as an ID. You have to get a driver's license. Yeah, you got to go get a driver's license. And again, for someone like... For a passport, passport. Yeah, passport. But again, I didn't have a passport for most of my life. Right. I didn't travel outside the country until I was, you know, in my 30s. And so I didn't have a passport. A lot of people don't have a driver's license, especially older folks. So the point is that these rules get added on top each other and make it even more difficult.

50:08One of the main... What are these rules? What's the reason for these rules? Is the rules... They're trying to keep people that are non -citizens from being able to vote, right? Well, not exactly. I mean, there is that concern. There's all... But here's where it kind of breaks down. The main concern is voter impersonation, which is the idea that I would show up to vote as if I was someone else. Like I was going to go and impersonate Joe Rogan and vote for Joe Rogan. That does happen though, right? Vanishing with you, incidents of this happening. Right. Because it requires you know... Sure. ...should it be zero?

50:42Yes, of course. And Ken Paxton, you know, decides to... He's our Attorney General here in Texas, decides to spend millions of dollars trying to find voter fraud. Right. To try to prove that this is a widespread problem. And you know, if he comes up with anything, it's usually like one or two cases of some mom who made a mistake on our form. I mean, the Secretary of State here in Texas, a Republican said that our elections are safe and secure. So I'm all for making sure that our elections have integrity. I think you have to have that in democracy. My concern though is when some of these bills are adding unnecessary regulations on top of that, just to make it harder for some folks to be able to vote rather than make everyone.

51:27You have the same opportunity to vote. Who do you think they're trying to make it harder for? I think young people, you know, I mentioned this issue of colleges and universities and those student IDs not being eligible. Two, in Texas, you've got to change your registration every time you move counties. Not necessarily if you move within a county, but every time you move counties. This is something we don't have to do. Like we have... There are logistical systems in place where we could track voter registration across counties. But think about the people that disenfranchises, the people who move a lot, who moves a lot, young people move a lot.

51:58Every time you get a new job, get a new apartment, if you go to a college or university, then you are moving and your voter registration has essentially been erased until you redo it. And young people are more likely to vote progressive and liberal. I mean, I don't even know if that's true anymore because a lot of young people voted for President Trump in the last election. I think that's because a lot of young people felt very disenfranchised by some of the laws that were being passed by the previous administration and some of the actions they were taken to suppress freedom of speech. I think it's fair.

52:31My point is when Republicans in my workplace try to disenfranchise certain groups, I think they should give themselves more credit and believe in their ability to actually win over those groups. Instead of trying to make it harder for young people to vote, why don't you just go out and try to win their votes? Clearly Donald Trump was able to do it. And if Donald Trump was able to do it, I think more Republicans should feel they can compete for those votes. Competition is a good thing. A lot of the reason why people were voting for Trump was a rejection of the previous administration and the idea that this is a continuance of the Kamala Harris administration would be a continuance of the previous administration.

53:15Yeah, I think that's true. But again, I'm arguing for my Republican colleagues here. I do think there is something that Donald Trump tapped into. I think that other Republicans could tap into. And again, this is weird because I'm a Democrat making an argument for Republicans. The reason I'm doing this is I think when politicians feel that they can win over voters, we all compete to win over those voters and that leads to better public policy. If you write off voters, then that leads to extremism in your policy making because you're only focused on pleasing your people. Well, that was a, that was an issue with young men.

53:50Yes, yep. And so the fact that I do think the Republican Party can speak to this desire to be an entrepreneur, Democrats too often, my party, we think that people are going to be happy with a handout. No, when I've never met someone who wants a handout, right? I mean, people want to work. You've never met someone who just wants free money. I actually haven't. I have. Have you? Sure. I should hang out with different people. Well, there's a lot of people that just want the government to take care of them. Here's the thing. I think some people may think they want that. And let's take the government out of it.

54:27Some people think they just want to sit on their couch, right? And I do too, right, when I'm like exhausted the last thing. I just want to, I just want to rot. My point is, after a while, that doesn't make you feel good. No, right? Every human being you need the desire to work, to produce, to contribute. I think that is a natural human urge that's like built into us. That is true, but I also think there's a lot of people out there that feel completely disenfranchised. And the idea of working sounds important to them. The idea of giving your life every day to something that you hate to do. And if there's enough money out there, that's not necessary.

55:04They would rather do that. I think that's absolutely true. Yeah. And I think that one should be, that means that we aren't creating enough jobs where people can find meaning. Because you're a job, you and I, people find meaning. I don't think you and I, you and I have, and I don't want to speak for you, but I don't think of this role that I have as work. Right? This is something that I, that moves me every day to get a bed and work on these issues. Now I don't get paid to do this, so I have to actually have a whole, another job. But the whole, the whole different issue. But there's a difference between a career and a job.

55:40Yes. I think everyone that I've met, everyone I grew up with, wants a career. Yes. And that career can look very differently. That career does not have to be in a, in an office. Right? I mean, that career can one can be outside, can be with your hands, or that career can be at the home. Right? My little sister just had her first child two years ago, my baby niece, Jane. And she is, she stayed home, Madeline is and she's, and she's spending so much time, time with Jane. And I have never seen my sister more alive than the work that she's doing. Right? And she made, my sister was a successful accountant.

56:18She worked at Alamo Drafthouse. She had, she had cool jobs. But I think this is the career that she wants. She knows that she could do other things if she wants to. But this is what's giving her meaning in her life. And I, and I want to have kids one day. So I, I definitely see that. There's work that I want to do. Part of long going to seminary is that this is something I feel called to do. It's something that's giving me purpose and meaning in my life. I just think every single person deserves that. And, and I don't know the best way to do it. But how do we give everyone that opportunity to give the gift that they're meant to give?

56:53Right? I mean, we're, we're all here for just a short amount of time. We are all so different. There's literally no one in the history of the universe that is you. Right? Joe Rugg, this, this collection of atoms and elements is only going to exist once. And thank God you found a way of how do you shine that light? How do you give that gift? To think of all the people across the state in this country who don't have a way to give that? What are we missing out on? Right? What's the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a kid in a low income school. Right. But this is all a great sentiment. But what are the actions that could be taken in order to give people a path to a career rather than a job?

57:32So let's talk about, I think we're all either thrilled or terrified of this AI future. And who knows what it's going to look like. It's probably not going to be apocalypse and probably not going to be utopia. It'll probably be something in the middle. But it is going to change how we understand work. It's going to, it's going to change how we understand our jobs in our careers. It's going to eliminate a lot of jobs I would imagine. And so this is now going to be a spiritual question about what does it mean to be a human being? It's one that we are not equipped to answer right now because in a lot of ways we have thrown out the baby with the bath water.

58:12And because of the problems with the organized religion that we talked about earlier, we've just jettisoned the whole thing. So we're no longer having conversations about what it means to be a human being. But to get to your question about what specifically this could look like, you know, I'm intrigued by some of the pilot programs on universal basic income and what they've provided. But I think what's missing in this idea is how do you, how do you provide people the support to go off and actually and realize whatever dream has been festering in the world? And they're brain for a long time, almost like entrepreneurial grants, right, of where we invest in someone's next big idea for an industry for art, whether it is community work or nonprofit work or solving a community problem.

58:58My point is my life shows me that people are just, they have this, this creativity and this imagination that we are not tapping into. And it is and so much of that is trapped in people who are either in these meaningless jobs or or are not or either gone to, you know, inadequate schools and therefore don't even get into a job where they could express themselves and give this gift. But I do know that it's out there and then if we tap into it, it could be a game changer. So I don't know what this looks like, but it does seem like the disruption that's coming could be an opportunity again back to out of crucifixion comes resurrection.

59:41Disruption is an opportunity to do something. I think it's also very dependent upon the individual and I think the best thing we can give them is inspiration. And oftentimes the best thing you can give them is an example of someone who also did it. Yeah, and so there's a lot of people that feel completely disenfranchised by the system that's currently in place now that I think is going to be upended by AI. So there is an opportunity for them to do something completely different. And the positive aspect of universal basic income is that first of all, I think we could both agree that if an enormous amount of jobs just go away, that probably is the only way to sustain society.

1:00:23You can't just have people go poor and go hungry when we have unfathomable wealth that's being created by these same systems. So universal basic income on one hand has a lot of hope because there is this potential that you now no longer. So we're locked into the situation where you think that you're working and you have to work because you have to take care of food and you have to take care of shelter. And this is what most people are doing with most people in this country right now are working check to check. They're living paycheck to paycheck and they're essentially getting by and any catastrophe, medical or otherwise will eliminate all savings instantaneously and they're doomed.

1:01:10And so what they're doing is just working giving most of their life just to sustain whatever state they're in currently. And that's very frustrating for people because they don't think they ever get ahead and they don't think they have any potential to get ahead. So if something comes along that takes care of that aspect of life. So if universal basic income can provide you with food and shelter. Now you no longer have to think about food, you no longer have to think about shelter. Now you have to find meaning. The problem is for a lot of people there are so many distractions that are unproductive like social media, like video games, like many things that people participate in all day long.

1:01:56And then you add in a factor of drug addiction and partying and a lot of other fruitless things that people participate in. If you only were living for the first 35 years of your life just to deal with food and shelter. And now food and shelter is provided for you. Now at 35 you have to sort of reformulate your view of the world and find meaning and find something and maybe you're an atheist. So you don't you don't find meaning in religion and you don't have any desire to find meaning in religion. Okay. Well you what do you do and how do you educate these people and how do you I think there's going to be an upheaval the likes of which we have never seen before.

1:02:43And there's going to be a lot of chaos and it's going to be very very uncomfortable for a lot of people. I think we're going to deal with unprecedented levels of addiction whether it is with drugs or with fill in the blank whatever gambling whatever things that people get addicted to because I think people are going to look for thrills. They're going to look for something that entices them that gives them some excitement because they're just getting a check every month. Yeah. Unfortunately just the way humans are wired that's not good for us. We know that from we know that from lottery winners.

1:03:19Like people get an enormous chunk of money you might win 200 million dollars. You hit the mega bonus whatever the hell it is. And then you're living in hell. For whatever reason you don't like it. You now find yourself surrounded by people that are trying to take money from you. You feel like your target. All the people that you grew up with and all people that know now looking for handouts and it gets really crazy. And most of them wind up penniless within a short period of time. I think it's like how many years is it where most lottery winners wind up broke. I think it's like less than 20 years.

1:03:56Even when they have enormous amounts of money. Yeah. So like the only thing that you can do for those people is to somehow or another inspired them to live in a different way. And I don't think that's a function of the government. I think it's a function of individuals and of inspirational people that can provide some sort of an example that differs from what they're surrounded by. I agree. And so if we approach this when it happens, which I agree it's about to happen. And I don't think any of us are ready for it. If we approach it as a technological problem or even an economic problem, I think we're missing the full picture here because I do agree with you that it is a it is primarily first and foremost a spiritual problem.

1:04:41And what I do know about human beings is that all of us ask these questions. What is what does it mean to be a human? What is all this about? Where is my life going? Why are we all here? Right. But we later night I can assure you almost everybody has asked those big, deep questions. That is essential to being a human being whether whether you're religious or not, whether an atheist or not. We all do struggle with with these ultimate questions. And I think what's born out over thousands of years of our species history is it's best to wrestle with those questions in community. Yes, because because right now, especially you know on my side of the aisle where religion has has declined among certain populations, there's this tendency of like, well, I'd you know, I'm not religious some spiritual, which I'm very open to people who say that and I understand what they're coming from.

1:05:41But you want to be careful that it is not private spirituality only meaning that it's only something that that you own that only impacts you and has no relation, no connection to other people. I do think we've got to be a part of communities where we ask and struggle with these questions together can look like a church or a mosque or synagogue. It can also it could also be a book club to be honest, right? I mean, or a podcast, right? Like this this space in a lot of ways for the whole country has become a place where people are having these bigger conversations that aren't just about your job aren't just about the current events of the day, but something deeper.

1:06:22Yeah. And I think we're going to need that now more than ever. And right now we're not equipped. Now I agree to and there's also a lot of people that don't have a legitimate in -person community. That's right. That's part of the problem too. And you know, and the people that do reject the concept of religion, finding an in -person community that doesn't turn into a cult. Which is also a problem. Yeah. Because generally these in -person communities are led by charismatic people who tend to want all the glory for themselves and tend to want to be praised and tend to want. Yeah, you know, it gets real weird sexually, it gets real weird with control.

1:07:02And then they impose rules on the group. Yeah. Always go sideways. No, there's not a good example of a new religion or a new cult that's been formed. Oh, those guys really nailed it. You got a benevolent leader who really just cares about everybody else who wants the best for everyone. You know, and I think weirdly enough, podcasts do fit into that space for whatever strange reason. You know, if you can find someone who really does profess these thoughts that like generally you want good for other people and you genuinely want the world to be a better place. And you genuinely don't want all this for yourself.

1:07:46You genuinely want people to do better and that you enjoy it. And you take real joy in watching people succeeding at their life together. You know, and find purpose. Yeah, but that's rare. Most people are selfish. Yeah. And most people when they're and they most people also feel they feel suppressed and they feel dismissed most of their lives. And they feel suppressed by larger organizations or more powerful people, more powerful groups. So when they do get into a position where they have power of their own, they want to exert that power on others. Because this is a pattern that they've grown up with.

1:08:30Unfortunately. Well, and everyone has everyone contains multitudes. So we are all selfish. I completely agree with that. But I also think we're all selfless too. Yeah. Like, you know, depends on potential. Right. I mean, it depends on whatever situation a person has put in and what what roots someone has to draw upon. And it's why I feel so lucky that I was brought up in a in a fake tradition that really emphasized my own experience as a validator for faith. Because you, well, you just described of a pastor or clergy consolidating power is something we see all too often in organized religion. And so if you don't empower your congregation or someone who is seeking answers to check everything based on their their experience and use that as a measure for what's true and what's good.

1:09:24Then you you make people dependent on that one guy, right, which is way too much power for one person. So it's not. Right. It has to be you have to use your own life as a way of saying like, does this work for me? Right. Or does it not? Does this ring true with everything I've lived through? Or does it not trust yourself in some ways? But a lot of people don't have a reason to trust themselves. They don't have confidence. They don't have a history of overcoming adversity and obstacles, which is also difficult. Yes. And this is also the part of the problem with meaningless jobs, like meaningless jobs that don't give you a sense of purpose.

1:10:05They never develop your feeling of accomplishment. So you just exist. And then you write you like again, you find yourself 35 30. I don't know why I'm coming up with that number, but this is like a point of no return where you know, if you haven't had a family by that point and you haven't had real love and relationships by that point, now your body started to get tired. So now you don't have the energy that you had when you were 20. When you were 20, where you could get four hours of sleep and just still show up and go do things. And you had the courage to say, you know what, I'm going to quit this thing that I'm doing.

1:10:38And I'm going to go pursue some completely different thing because I think I can do it because I'm young and brash. And when you get older and then you do have a bunch of bills. And then one of the things that I liked that you talked about was that if we were really a Christian nation, we would forgive student loan debt. And I am a big fan of that. And I do not like that we are predatory towards young people and condemn them to loans that are unforgivable regardless of any other kind of bankruptcy, which is really kind of sick. The idea that we have put education that may or may not be even helpful for you in the future, and may just be complete nonsense.

1:11:25Like say, say, you know, you spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting some degree in the humanities, getting some degree in gender studies, some just a nonsensical degree that you're never going to get a job from. And now you are condemned to not just pay that initial debt, but with interest forever. There's people right now that are on social security that are getting their social security docked. They get chunks of it taken out to pay for their student loan debt that they will never pay off. They will go to the grave in debt for predatory loans that they took out when they were so young, their frontal cortex wasn't even fully developed yet.

1:12:08They didn't have any idea what they were doing. They were being coerced by a bunch of people that told them this is the only way that you have to do this, although as you're going to be a loser, that easily could have been me. I was very lucky that I didn't fall into that, but I only went to school. I only went to, I went to UMass Boston. I only went there because I didn't want to be a loser because I thought you had to go. I thought, because I got tired of telling people that I wasn't going to school after high school. And so I was like, I better just go do something otherwise. I feel gross telling people that I'm not doing anything.

1:12:48And that is a sickness in our culture. That's a sickness in our society. It's a sickness in our civilization that we have allowed these financial institutions to pray upon the youngest and most vulnerable people with inescapable loans that they will carry with them often for decades and decades. And it's sick. And the resistance to forgiving that is also sick. It's like we spent so much money on other countries. So much money went to USAID, developing foreign nations and influencing elections and regime change. And we're so resistant to giving people the freedom to have education as a thing that doesn't burden you with financial ties that you can't escape.

1:13:46The idea that you can't escape anyone with bankruptcy is so sick. It's just a sickness man. And we've just accepted it. Well, those who's who it is. Well, someone's making money. Someone's profiting off of that. So you're allowing people to profit off vulnerable young kids to the tune that we're, you know, the interest compiles every year. And you're stuck with it forever. Why? That's a, that's on a situation that I'll let. Listen, I say this before, but I'm going to say it again. You want to make America great again? You want less losers. Okay. How do you get less losers? You get less people that are financially crippled by student loans.

1:14:26You get less people that grow up in a neighborhood where there's no hope. Well, we find neighborhoods that are not that have no hope and that are riddled with drug addiction and crime and gang violence. And we just leave them alone. And we just say that's their problem. No, that's our problem. If we really want to think of ourselves, the United States of America as a community, which is I, that's how I like to look at it. I like to think of us as a big community. I don't like to think of us as right versus left and blue and red and all this nonsense. It's a bunch of people that agree we're all the same.

1:15:02Yeah. So if we are a community, how are we allowing these places to create these disenfranchised people, generation after generation and do nothing about it? And those kids were doing exactly what we told them to do. Exactly. Exactly. They've got to school kids. Go to college. Go to college. Again, I think we've over corrected or now we tell every kid to go to college, which does a lot of damage too. Because a lot of kids, one, don't want to go to college, two, they're gifts and their skills aren't going to be fully developed at a four -year university. Also, we're dismissing the value of trades.

1:15:41Like, my God, how many? Not as much of a money they make. Great plumber. It's so important. Having a great carpenter is so important. Yeah, like Christian. No, I mean, so important. And you make it a lot more money. I mean, the guys I went to high school with that have a boat out at like Travis are not the ones who went to a four -year university like I did. They certainly didn't study, you know. Get your head out of the books. But nonsensical stuff that doesn't get you anywhere. But, you know, I, so I mentioned to you before I was a politician, I was a public school teacher, which is kind of an usual route to serving.

1:16:16I taught six grade language arts at Rhodes Middle School. Oh, something that's valued. I often say, language arts teaching teaching middle school is the best preparation for politics. It's a lot more, a lot more like middle school than people think. The ego is the drama. Yeah, you know, just all of it is. Isn't crazy how no one gets past that. Yeah, I mean, well, we could talk about this all day, but I have, there are lots of stories I have where I'm just blown away by the ego. And again, I have an ego. You have an ego. There's no way you can do this kind of difficult work without an ego that, you know, to be able to say, I want to make decisions for 200 ,000 constituents.

1:16:59I mean, that's the job I have, right? I mean, that takes a certain amount of ego to make those kind of decisions. You just can't let the ego be the corrupt. And this was the problem. I mean, we focused so much on President Biden's age, which I agree was a problem. But I don't, I don't think we've really discussed that the biggest problem was ego. It was his inability to step aside and let someone else do a job. Yes, right? I mean, when it should happen a lot, a lot earlier than when it should have never happened in the first place. Let's be realistic. In 2020, we all knew anybody that was paying attention knew that he was compromised.

1:17:34Yeah. Well, and that he said he was a transitional figure. Yeah. I mean, he said he, I don't know how explicit he was, but he certainly made it sound like, you know, he was stepping in so that he could usher in a new generation. And that never happened because when you get into these offices, and I, again, I'm just a little state rep at a low level. But even I know like people call you representative, your male, your male says the honorable. Right? Right? Yeah. Right? And you're like, that's a toast. It feels pretty good, right? It's pretty cool. People, you know, and you have a bunch of new friends, right?

1:18:06All the lobbyists are like, now you're, you know, they're professionally friendly, right? And all that can go to your head very quickly. I'm sure. And think about someone who's been in it for 60 years. I mean, it almost becomes a fused part of your identity to where you can't step aside. Oh, yeah. Everything is for self preservation. Well, look at these politicians that are in their 80s that are still in office. Desperately clinging to. Desperately clinging. Yeah. I mean, and I look at these people and I'm like, you have grandkids. Well, it's not just that. It's also the support system that's behind them, right?

1:18:39Because all those people need that person to stay in office. Correct. Yeah, they all depend on them. But I'm like, if I'm, you tell me this 60 years from now, if I'm 80 years old and I'm still in elected office, it's like, go home. Well, maybe not. It's not with your grandkids. Well, maybe not with your grandkids. You're still valuable at eight. I'm not that interesting. I'm not that interesting. Age comes for all of us, right? I mean, yeah, but I don't dismiss the possibility that you could be an elder statesman and be like very wise and kind and benevolent and doing a really good job. I guess it just, but that, to me, it suggests that you think there's no one younger than you.

1:19:14Or with more energy who could do this better? Well, why do you have to have no energy if you're old if you take care of yourself? I think there's a lot of people that have learned a lot in their time. You know, I mean, you've got your situations where you've got like your Nancy Pelosi's where they're clearly using the system for extreme wealth. They're generating preposterous amounts of wealth for a reasonable income. You know, they may have a reasonable income of 170, 200 ,000 dollars a year. If you had there worth hundreds of millions of dollars, like that's kind of crazy. Right? That's kind of crazy that you're supposed to be.

1:19:52That's above board. That's level. That's okay. That's nuts. Or, or, I mean, just just saw this story about this congressman right before the big beautiful bill passed and he sold all his stock in a company that does Medicaid reimbursements. Oh, Jesus. So like, you know, because you knew it was coming. Yeah, I mean, inside of training. And by the way, inside of trading, everyone wants to like call, like use Nancy Pelosi in his example. She kind of gets used as an example just because she's been so good at it. But if you look at the actual insider trading, it's red and blue. It's the whole thing.

1:20:28Yep. It's filled with people that are benefiting. Well, and I, so going into this, when I first decided to run, I was 28 and never run for anything before. For 36. I just turned 36. And I was like I said, a former teacher. So I didn't, I didn't know about how to run for office. Why did you decide to run for office? Well, so I was a teacher on the West side of San Antonio, which is a, for those, your listeners who are in San Antonio, the West side is this. It's this beautiful historic neighborhood, Mexican American neighborhood. It's also one of the poor zip codes in the whole state of Texas. So every day I, I saw my students struggling to overcome poverty and, and these systems that were designed to hold them back.

1:21:14And the school I was at was underfunded. It missed Title I school. I taught 45 kids in one classroom. And the classroom was not that much bigger than the studio. Oh, my gosh. So you imagine 45 kids in here. You know, some, I had, I literally had kids sitting on the air conditioning unit. Oh, wow. Because there were enough desks. I mean, this is, this is crazy. This is the 21st century. In America. In the United States of America. Wow. And it pissed me off. I mean, I, so I had one student, I was a first year teacher. What happens in schools, especially schools in high poverty neighborhoods where things are really hard.

1:21:46You know, the administration of the school will oftentimes give the, the kids who need the most help, the kids who have the most troubles to the first year teachers. Right. Almost like a hazing thing. So I remember my first year of teaching, my principal told me that I was going to get this kid named Justin, who had gotten kicked out of his elementary school the year before because he had brought a knife to school and threatened to stab his fifth grade teacher. So I was, again, first year teacher kind of freaked out, right. The kid shows up. One, he's not a monster. He's an 11 year old boy, right?

1:22:17Like this high.

1:22:22I took him aside and introduced myself told him I was happy he was in class, told him I wanted to get to know him. He gradually started to raise his hand a little bit more in class. He was super smart, super just quick. He also like a great smile. He's very popular with the, with the girls in the class. A lot of personality. And I started inviting him to our little lunch group because I had kids who came in my classroom during lunch. And, and we started to kind of build a rapport. And he didn't have a lot of male teachers. So I think that was helpful to see a guy as a teacher and be able to build relationship with him.

1:22:59Anyway, right before winter break that year, he, it was the last day of school. He brought me this wrapped gift. It was the wrapping was all jankety. But I opened it up and it was this little cup with a snowflake on it that he had bought at the Dollar Tree for his teacher. Again, this is a kid who was going to stab his fifth grade teacher. A few months later he's bringing a snowflake cup to his sixth grade teacher. And I was feeling like I was on top of the world as a teacher. I was like, who's going to make the movie? I am, right? And then I was going to play me. And then I came, came back after winter break.

1:23:36I was in my third period class and I heard this commotion out in the hallway. So I immediately stepped out of the room to see what was going on. And there were two of our coaches and they were both restraining Justin. Either side of them, they were carrying him out of the school. He was screaming. His feet didn't touch the ground. Like he literally was just carried out of the school. I found out that he had started a fight in his third grade class. And that was his last strike. And it was honest, it was the last time I ever saw Justin. I did some digging to figure out what had happened. And it turns out in the previous semester, Justin had been seeing a therapist that was provided by the school district.

1:24:15And it was this lady that he really was hitting it off with and getting along with. And they were going through all his issues because Justin had been abandoned by his mother at a very early age, which that'll screw anybody up. Justin had experienced violence, had experienced all this trauma. And so the first time there was a professional who was helping him work his way through it. And there was a teacher who liked him and believed in him. And that was all it took for Justin to see all these improvements. And I found out that after winter break that because of budget cuts from the legislature, the district had eliminated the therapist.

1:24:51So this lifeline suddenly went away for Justin. So literally everybody had abandoned Justin, including his own mother. And now the adults that he was trying to trust again were abandoning him. And so that was the kind of radicalizing experience for me because these people at the state capital had cut $5 billion from our schools. Who knows why, who knows what the justifications were. But I saw firsthand how that screwed up a kid's life. I saw the damage that did to real flesh and blood human beings. And so I promised myself right then that if I ever got a little bit of power or a little bit of influence that I would do everything I could with every fiber of my being to stop that from happening again.

1:25:34So literally Justin and my students are the ones I think about when I'm at the capital. They are the criteria that I use to evaluate public policy. Not if it's a Democratic bill or a Republican bill. Not if it's going to get me ex -Labia support. It is will this help my students or will it hurt my students? Period. And it makes things a lot easier. I have a picture of my one of my class periods on my desk at the capital. So that is what got me into this whole mess. I miss being a teacher because I miss having that immediate impact. All the impact I make now if I make any impact at all feels very diffuse and far away.

1:26:14Because there's always layers. But I like to think that some of the bills I'm passing are at least helping teachers like me and students like mine. That's beautiful. It's beautiful that you made that decision. And I think that's what we need. We need people that have legitimate personal real life experience with other people that are benefiting from certain social programs and certain things that should not be cut. I think there's too many wealthy people that are just very disengaged with everyone else. And that's a real concern. And they sort of huddle up in these elite groups and go to these elite meetings and have these conferences they fly on private jets and try to figure out how the world should operate.

1:27:00Climate change on their private. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's really crazy and gross. And I don't think it has anything to do with climate change. I think it's like a boys club, a weird club where these elite people get to hobnob and eat caviar together. My point is if you're going to a conference to discuss climate change but you're taking your giant private jet. I've seen Bill Gates justify that because of all his work that he does. Or even Bernie Sanders when he's talking about campaigning. He was saying, how old am I going to go to all these different places? We go southwest like fucking comedians do.

1:27:36We travel all over the country too. But it's not that it's great. Yeah, listen, when I was traveling, I was doing a lot more dates than him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I never took private jets. Look, there's ways to do it. And the idea that there's only one way to do it. Well, that's no. That's just the nicest way. It's certainly more convenient. It's easier. It's more comfortable if you got the money. But the idea that you're going to preach to everybody else how to live their lives. You're so disconnected from most people. Well, I would say that I am probably the poorest member of the Texas legislature.

1:28:11And I'm not poor, but relatively speaking, most of the people I serve with, either very successful lawyers who own their own law practice, doctors and surgeons who operate their own medical practice, or it's trust on babies. No offense to those people. But yeah, that is a weird thing. It's just people who have a lot of family money. And here's because I mentioned earlier that I don't make any money at this job. So I'm like a congressman, because I think congress people make like 150 or something, which is a real salary. I make $7 ,200 a year. That's $400 a month after taxes as a state rep. That's my salary.

1:28:50Now, I also get a per -dem when we're in session, which is a little bit more, which is helpful. But the reason I say that is because there are systematic barriers to a regular person running for the job that I have. Got it. Right? Unless you have an ability to support your family, or sustain your life, or pay your bills, a teacher can't run for the job I have. Right. A firefighter, a police officer, construction worker, you can't run for state rep. And you wouldn't be able to take time off. No. How are you going to do it? Yeah. So the only people who end up serve, and again, I understand why paying politicians no one wants to do.

1:29:25Right? I understand that I'm not a sympathetic character here. But when you don't, well, but when you, the problem is when you don't pay a politician, especially a state legislator, who's making most of the big decisions about that affect your life, it's really not people in congress. It's the state level people. But if you're not paying them a living wage, then you're only going to get trust fund babies and lawyers and surgeons. What do you think is the motivation of those people that are involved? Do you find people that are benevolent, that are trust fund babies and serve in dark? For sure.

1:29:56For sure. I mean, FDR was a trust fund baby, right? Was it really? Yeah. One of the wealthiest families in New York. The kind of, you know, Bobby Kennedy was a trust fund baby and still sympathize with working people. So I don't think that you have to be born poor, people that do that. I do think it provides a helpful, helpful perspective. You know, I was born to a single mom and that experience has helped inform how I've used things. So a lot of my colleagues, I would say, just have no experience. So for instance, there was a bill that we passed, unfortunately, that would make it easier for landlords to evict people.

1:30:32And we were trying to work with the author of that bill to add some exceptions for, you know, if you just miss a bill because you're late, you shouldn't get evicted, right? Like we were trying to build that out. And the author just kind of had no conception with how you could miss a bill. Right? Like it just, because when you're that, when you have people who do that, right? Like he was like, he was like, his accountant does all that. And I'm like, but when you're a working person, you're balancing raising kids, working multiple jobs. Yeah. Right? Maybe trying to exercise when you can. Like when you're doing all that and God forbid you have a medical problem, like yes, some stuff falls through the cracks.

1:31:07And like evicting that family because of a mistake or because they missed a bill, to me, it's not that he's trying to be malicious. It was that he just had a complete blind spot on what it was like to be a working person. But there's also people that do, they are malicious. They don't care about people that are struggling. And they only care about their peers. They care about enriching the people that are already wealthy. Yes. I do feel like those people I have found are very loving parents and spouses and even friends. Isn't that crazy? And to me, that means they have just not, they haven't broadened that circle of concern.

1:31:46Uh -huh. Right? I'm always, because you want to, you want to think something, people are just two dimensional villains. I sometimes fall victim to that thinking. But then I spend time with them. I'm like, this person is kind and funny and good -hearted and treats his wife well and treats his kids well, treats his neighbors, his immediate neighbors. So that my challenge is always like, how do I, how do I try to expand that story? I try to circle a little bit more to where they care just as much about a neighbor who lives in a completely different city than the one who's right next door to them in Highland Park or River Oaks, or one of these nice neighborhoods.

1:32:21That to me is the challenge. It's seeing everyone as your neighbor, not just the people who live right next to you. And that's, you know, that's the central teaching of my faith. And in most, most of the great faith traditions, I mean that we, sometimes we try to pretend that there's all these diverse religions and who knows who's right. In reality, there is giant ethical overlap between the major world religions. There is literally not a faith tradition that tells you when someone gets sick, see how much money you can make off of them. No religion teaches that. None of them, right? Right, right.

1:32:55You know, there's no one that's, you know, love your neighbors only when they agree with you. Right. It's just that does not what any of the faith traditions teach. Like there is this consensus, this ethical consensus. And the reason I think we try to pretend that all these religions are so different is because we are threatened by that moral consensus of how you should treat one another, how we should treat the least among us. And that's a threat to the people who are in power, the people who run the status quo right now. I mean, it upends the status quo. They, you know, they didn't kill Jesus for being a nice guy.

1:33:27Right. That's part of the problems that the people that are in power want to stay in power. And the best way to stay in power is to enrich the other people around you that are like you and create laws and create a structure that allows you to maintain ridiculous wealth and suppress competition. And divide everyone to keep them distracted. My personal, like the more I've done this, I've done this for four terms now. I think of politics now less as left versus right and much more as top versus bottom. Yeah. Because I just see how we are all pitted against each other. And I mean, I mean literally, should be social media platforms, they only get clicks when there's conflict.

1:34:17Right. They don't get clicks when we're having a conversation, when we're understanding each other. Right. When we're coming to some kind of mutual agreement, that doesn't get anybody any profit. Right. And so these, the Rupert Murdoch's of the world, the cable news networks, the social media platforms, the Zuckerberg's and Musk's, I mean, these platforms are literally tearing us apart by design. And I just, I think there has to be something better than that. Well, I don't even know if it's by design, but that's the way that it's the most profitable. And I think like algorithms, like people always like to want to point towards algorithms as being by design.

1:34:56But they only work because they work. Right. They only work because people do engage with the things that piss them off the most. That's if we're measuring engagement as the soul good. Right. If we're measuring people's well -being, now you have a different metric. Right. But it's almost impossible to do. It's like how do you judge, you'd have to get to an individual human being and find out why they're engaging with what they're engaging. What you do when you manage at scale is you try to figure out what's the best way to keep people engaged. Well, if human nature made you only engage with things that you're interested in, and that is possible.

1:35:38You can do that. I've done that. It's possible to do. But obviously, I'm in a privileged position to be able to do something like that. But like my friend Ari did this experiment once where on YouTube he only looked up videos of puppies for like a long time. That was his whole feed was puppies. And his, you know, the experiment, the reason why I was doing it was just trying to show that it's not the algorithm. It's not like the algorithm was feeding him hollow costs the night hours and about to shit the piston off. It didn't. Right. It only fed him puppies. That's what he was interested in. The problem is people are interested in things that pissed them off.

1:36:14And I think a lot of that also is a distraction from your own issues in life. Is that you look towards external things that maybe don't even really affect you, but provide you with a source of, you can pay attention to them and get invested in them and get angry. And ignore maybe the shortcomings of your lack of discipline and your lack of focus and the things that are really holding you back in life. You know, you can get distracted by some other stuff. You can get distracted by some things that maybe, maybe legitimate issues and maybe, but how much do they affect you in day to day life? Very little probably.

1:36:54Well, I just think we all, and I know I have this experience of just feeling terrible when I'm on a lot of these platforms. Oh, yeah. Right. I mean, it does feel like everything is making us feel terrible, whether it's the news we're watching, the TV, the social media algorithms. But I think this podcast is evidence in the opposite direction. Yeah. Because why would people tune into these really long conversations with very different people? I mean, you have, you had Trump and Bernie Sanders in the same chair. Right. So why are people attracted to that though? Because this is not, this is not clickbait, you know, stuff on your feed that's just trying to provoke conflict for clicks.

1:37:41So clearly this format exposes that people do have a hunger for something healthier. Something that builds understanding, right? Yeah. So people have both of those things inside them, I guess. Well, I think people, listen, there's a reason why we have complex technology, society, cities, urban development. There's a reason why we have all those things. It's because the human mind has a genuine, there's a desire for improvement and for innovation and to learn. It's normal. Yes. But we can be distracted. For sure. But you have to decide not to be distracted, you know, and a lot of my shows are distracting.

1:38:23Yeah. A lot of my shows are complete nonsense because I can get caught up in nonsense, too. But this shows a reflection of my own personal interests. But it's also a long form. I mean, the platforms that I, the social media platforms just abuse your attention so much. Do they though? Yes. Or do you allow them? Well, either way. Either way. But they don't abuse mine, you know, but they have. Do you not use the typical platforms? Very little. Really? Yeah, very, very little. I go on Twitter every morning when I go to the bathroom to find out what everyone's mad at. And then I leave it alone. The best place to be on Twitter.

1:39:02I basically, basically, and then even then I don't feel good and I leave it alone. I don't look at anything about myself. I look at stuff that's going, I follow like thousands of people. So my, my, my feed is very diverse. It's filled with all kinds of different voices. And I just see a few things that people are pissed off about or people are interested in. I find a bunch of cool science stuff. A bunch of cool, you know, James Webb, telescope, telescope discoveries. And then I leave it alone. But you, but you, I mean, and I at some extent we, we had the privilege of growing up in a childhood without that.

1:39:39Right. So I just want to acknowledge that for kids. Right? Like they, they don't have the same impulse control. 100%. So if we're feeding this to them, it's almost, I mean, it's just, just as bad as some of the junk food we're feeding them. Right. But you know what else is popular with those kids? Me. That's right. So if I tell them, I'm not doing it. And I tell them why I'm not doing it. Yes. And I, it's clear. It's clear by what I pay attention to. It's clear by what I focus on that I'm not, I'm not caught up in that the way a lot of people are. And, um, and then I'm open to a bunch of different perspectives and ideas.

1:40:14And I, and I welcome them because I really want to know how people think about it. As long as they're genuine real thinkers, as long as they have good faith arguments and discussions about things, there's a lot of people out there in, uh, particularly in mainstream media, in corporate media, that just by nature of the format of those things, they're grifters. Yeah. They, they latch on to whether it's a right, right wing perspective or a left wing perspective. When they're the champion of that perspective and they argue with it and they don't see humans. It's professional wrestling. Yeah. And I loved, you know, when I was growing up, I loved professional wrestling.

1:40:50You know, I, I, I, I didn't, you didn't, I mean, I did when I was in high school. Yeah. I did when I was a young boy, I should say. But then once I started competing in martial arts, I'm a naturalist sport. Yeah, I didn't like it anymore. Well, because it's entertainment. Yeah. Right. I mean, it's not a sport. I mean, I know that that's not a good ability. But, you know, it's, it's the heroes and the villains. Sure. It's fun. But it's, it didn't have real consequences to me. And to me, like real life consequences were so much more fascinating, real competition, like an actual real wrestling match between like two Olympic champions.

1:41:19That to me was so much more fascinating. And, but, you know, you, you have to engage in some sort of a discipline to appreciate that, to appreciate the, the difference between someone who's like really, really had like a singular focus in their life of excellence and trying to figure out a way to be really good at something. And then watching them compete with other people that have had that similar thing. And try to figure out what separates the champions from other people and what are the characteristics, what are those things and how do those apply to everyday life? And they do apply to everyday life.

1:41:57When, when I was a kid in martial arts, one of the things that my instructor told me at a very young age is that martial arts is a vehicle for developing your human potential, that you're engaging in this very, very difficult thing to learn about yourself, and that you could apply these lessons to everything in life. And there's too many people that don't get that lesson. They don't understand that you, you can figure this thing out. And your path is going to be different than my path. It's going to be different from every, but there's certain principles that you can apply to whatever your individual path are.

1:42:34And you can learn about the value of discipline and of personal autonomy and understanding, and personal accountability and figure out how to get better. You're going to have failures and they're going to feel awful. They're going to feel terrible, but they're very valuable. And those, you can't shy away from them because that's where you really learn how to get better. And then your feelings of success, don't dwell on those either, because it's not about that. It's really about this path. The path is what it's really about. And it's really about learning how to live, and learning how to exist in a harmonious way, with not just other people, but also with yourself.

1:43:17And you have to have respect for yourself. And the only way you develop respect for yourself is you have to know what you've done. You have to know that you've worked really hard, that you've overcome things, and know that you've had these little mental battles, where you've had these little bad ways of thinking that you've turned around. And you realize, like, okay, that's possible. I did it before. I'm going to do it again. And you're going to have these moments where, oh, this one's impossible. I can't get through it. But you can get through it. And you can. And it can be done. And if there's anything that I try to teach people, it's what I've done.

1:43:55I have overcome a lot of these little personal demons. I've overcome a lot of these little things. And actually, they're not little. They're huge. It's huge in your mind. But this can be done. And it's not going to be done on TikTok. It's not going to be done, dedicating yourself to just fucking off and scrolling and playing video games and doing drugs all day. That's not going to do it. It's not going to do it. It's not going to help you. But you can learn. You can. And you can be a better person. And you can respect yourself more. I mean, it's a practice. Yeah, it's a practice. And that's a way of life.

1:44:34And again, the failures are very valuable. And the successes are very valuable, too. But you can't dwell on them either. You just got to keep going. Right. Well, and I just know when. And I think the thing that's encouraging about both this podcast, but also the format in general, is that it is a long form. And so it forces you to pay attention in a different kind of way. Right? Your attention on TikTok or Instagram or some of these other platforms. It is so superficial and shallow. And that attention, I think, is abused on those platforms. And I think I've talked to people in my own life who feel like the more time they spend on those platforms, the less you're able to pay attention to something.

1:45:17Oh, yeah. Right. And you're in your daily life. But the fact that what you mentioned about martial arts is this focus. Right. I mean, you can't do anything great in your life without that focus. It's all, I mean, this, I'm going to sound like a Buddhist, but the ability to kind of control your own mind and focus that mind and that spirit on something right in front of you on the here and now. I mean, that is the key to all success. Yes. And whether you're doing a podcast, whether you're doing sports or politics or. But I feel like there's a whole generation of kids who are growing up who aren't getting that training for their attention.

1:45:55And it's just getting abused and shot and scattered. The only way for them to get that is to see an example. If someone was doing it, and this is sports, this is where sports come in. Where I think really excellent sports figures that excel. Yeah. That do. They do something that the other people that are their peers can't do. And then you can learn like, what is he doing? What is LeBron James doing this different? What is this guy? What is Ronaldo doing? What are these people doing? There's different than anything. And almost all of them is discipline and focus. That's a giant, there's genetic factors and coaching and where they started.

1:46:33There's a lot of variables, but you can apply those things to your life. One of the things that's unique about podcasts is that it was a mistake. And that no one saw it coming. So no one cashed in on it. So no one, it's not cashed in it. No one controlled it. No one dictated how you do it. No one told you who the question is. What the question should be or how you should talk to people. You had to kind of figure it out on your own. So you got unique individual perspectives that are legitimate. They're authentic. And authenticity is the thing that's missing from television news. It's missing from anything that's corporate controlled.

1:47:26Because you wouldn't allow it to be so scattered and so chaotic. And so kind of dangerous. Because if you're banking all your money on something succeeding, you would want to narrate it. You would want to curate it. But it doesn't work that way. And humans don't work that way. And I think in this landscape where we don't have authentic perspectives, the thing that rises is authentic perspectives. And I think that's, if you look at most of the successful podcasts out there, the people that are doing them are authentic human beings. And their perspective is uniquely their own. And I think when they go sideways, is when they become a part, they get bought out.

1:48:11They become a part, they sell a piece of it to some corporation. And they get curated. And there's a lot of weirdness that gets involved. And I've managed to resist all that. But it was also because it got so big before anybody came calling that I had already figured out the right way to do it is just to do it my way. And my way is to have genuine curiosity to be a real human being and just to talk to people. Well, and you're, I've just noticed just in this conversation we've had that you have a gift for listening. And I think this is something these platforms or most of our cable news or most of our media environment doesn't value anymore is actual listening and learning.

1:48:54Right? It is now all about what you say, what your opinions are. Yeah. Rather than actually creating a connection with another person. I've fallen victim to that too. I had to learn how to do it. You know, if you go back to my earlier podcast, they were terrible. Well, I could you were talking to me. I'm not sure you know, I'd want to speak, but I genuinely have always wanted to know how other people think and why they think the way they think and you can find holes in the way people think. And you can find strength in the way people think. And they're very, it's very inspirational. I've had an unexpected and unintended education from doing this.

1:49:32Yeah, I didn't intend when I first started doing it. It was just me and my friends and we were just fucking around. And I just thought that was fun. Yeah. I was like, it'd be fun to get together with my comedian friends. Like we only work at night. Right. Like what are we doing during the day? Most of us during the day are just screwing off. Yeah. It's like, what should we do? Let's get together and just have a bunch of laughs. And then all of a sudden it was like, okay, this has gotten so popular that people want to come on. Okay, let me see what Anthony Bourdain has to think about things. What does he have to say about stuff?

1:50:00What does Graham Hancock have to say about things? And people that I found genuinely interested were willing to sit down and talk to me. Like, well, this is cool. Now I've got this like weird platform so I can ask questions and really find out why do people think the way they think? Why do they live their life the way they live? And what can I learn from that? And how can I apply that to my life? And how can I give them this ability to express themselves as clearly as possible? Like where I'm not getting in the way of it and I'm just trying to help them get it out. As clearly as possible. Whether I agree or disagree, I want to know like why do they think the way they think?

1:50:42Like what is it? And I want to know if you're a real thinker or if you're just a grifter. The, it's really fascinating to me is watching these people that were exiled from mainstream media because obviously the ratings have crashed and their credibility is plummeted. So then they try to pivot and become podcasters. But they're still like Elon Musk said this is so good, so well about Don Lemon. He's like he's trying to do CNN outside of CNN and you can't do that. You can't bullshit people in this world of no bullshit and that's the podcast world. The podcast world is certainly some bullshit. But for the most part what attracts people is if they know that this is really how you think.

1:51:28And I know this is resonating with a lot of people out there that you're forced to go to a job or you pretend to be a certain person all day and if you step outside of those lines, you're going to risk career opportunities, you're going to risk advancement. You know you have to stay within this very rigid, the very rigid confines of whatever your occupation is. And it's not very satisfying. It doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like you're a human being. And they think that's the only way. And then they hear people talk and they go, okay this is not the only way. There's other ways to think and there's other ways to live your life.

1:52:08Well on the fact that you have people from such different perspectives on, I think I just don't think we have very many platforms like that anymore. And to me that is probably the best thing about working in the legislature. I think I told you this of being forced to get outside of my bubble. Because of course I live in a bubble like everybody else does, right? My information feed is curated like everybody else is. And I try to break out of that whenever I can. But my job forces me to break out with that because I have to sit down with very far right Republicans, very far left Democrats and hammer out solutions to problems.

1:52:52I mean that's what I do all day at the Capitol or when things are going well that's what I'm doing. But I think about there was a colleague, I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning it on here. His name is James Frank out of which tall falls, very conservative Republican. And he and I met when I got elected and we bonded over the stupidest thing, which is that we both have the same first name. When you meet someone like that's sometimes you go off of the most superficial basis to create a friendship. James is a really common one. That's his joke. But yeah, but ever we started this joke of like we're the James caucus and your vice chair, blah blah blah, right.

1:53:30It was a stupid basis for a friendship, but it was a basis. And from there he started like come back to where I sat on the floor. And like when things were slow he would just come kind of sit and shoot the shit. And he would say like he would he would reveal some of the interesting non orthodox views that he has about politics, which then gave me an opening to kind of express some of my dissatisfactions with this political system in both parties and the way it forces us into tribes, all that stuff. Anyway, all those conversations really created an actual friendship. And I consider James an actual friend.

1:54:07And then what got interesting is how we took that friendship into public policy. Because I think it was two sessions ago, James had a bill that all the Democrats hated, including me. I hated the bill too. It was a bill to allow home school kids to participate in UIL. I know you have what is UIL? Yeah, I was going to say that is basically school sports in Texas, like the sports league. And as you know, sports are very important. Well, my concern was that the public education system is not a buffet table, right? Where you can just come and say, I want to do the sports, but I don't want to participate in the actual school or the academics, the life of the school.

1:54:50I didn't want it to become this fragmented thing that everyone could just pick apart and just do the fun stuff. That was my first reaction. James sat down with me, which right there a Republican coming to a Democrat and like actually having a private conversation about a bill. That doesn't happen enough and it should. Because when he sat me down, he was able to use all the conversations we had to talk about this policy. And he said something to me that just blew my mind. He said, James, whenever we talk about immigration, you always say don't punish kids for the decisions their parents make. There you go.

1:55:28Right. And immediately I was kind of first embarrassed and ashamed. That's our natural reaction when we're wrong. But I was like, James is absolutely right. These kids didn't decide to be homeschooled. This may be their only opportunity to interact with kids their own age in a public school setting. The opportunity to do UIL football or choir or theater or debate. This could be a door that opens for these kids. So anyway, I ended up crossing party lines to support that bill. And I got a bunch of blowback from my folks. But I felt like this trust that I had with James, someone who was on completely polar opposite side of me, moved me in a way that I actually changed my opinion on something.

1:56:15That's awesome. I think also, if you just look at it objectively, that would be socially beneficial to those kids. For sure. If it's beneficial to those kids, those kids would be better members of the community. And you know what? We passed that bill a couple of years ago. And I got to talk with some of the homeschool kids that are participating. And it has been a game changer for them. And what's interesting is that that has become a great recruitment tool for the local public schools. Right? Because then the public school is able to show off the UIL how much fun it is and then the kids sometimes enroll.

1:56:47The point is, like, I was open to changing my own mind. And that goes both ways. The next session, I had filed this bill. Sometimes I file a bill that I know is not going to pass in a Republican legislature, but I file it anyway so I can at least start a conversation. Right? I passed a bill that was actually a Bernie Sanders idea. Sorry, I filed the bill. It was to import cheaper prescription drugs from Canada directly to Texas because Canadians pay half of what we pay for the same prescription drugs. And I didn't think it was going to go anywhere and all of a sudden James calls me. And it's like, I just read your bill.

1:57:22I love it. I'm a big believer in the free market and big pharma is disrupting the free market. So suddenly it was me and James Frank. We got it through the house. We got it through the Senate and we got it signed by the governor. And now Texas is working on its application of the FDA to import cheap prescription drugs from Canada. That's awesome. So like, it goes both ways of you being open to changing your mind. Yeah. And the other person being open and suddenly progress is possible when there's a relationship. Well, that begs the question like, why are you a Democrat? Well, my mother, as I told you, I was born a single mom.

1:57:57She was a preacher's daughter from LaReto down on the border. She left home at 19. She moved up to Austin. She met my birth father who was a high school dropout and had a drinking problem. And that drinking problem sometimes led to being violent with my mother. And there was one night, it was me and mom and my birth father and he had had too much drinking, got violent again. And that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back and my mom decided right then and there that she was leaving. So she packed all our stuff. She put me in her little Ford escort. She drove me to the hotel where she worked downtown.

1:58:40The manager let us stay in one of the rooms for a few weeks until we found a little apartment in East Austin. And mom, you know, she took on double duty at the hotel. She like fought for me at every instance. Even when it was her own physical safety, was at risk. And back then, this was early 90s. You know, she could look over at the Texas Capitol and she saw Texas Democrats like Ann Richards, Bob Bullock, people who fought for the little guy for working people, people who were who were forgotten and left behind. That was the classic Democratic party. And so I remember when I was, I guess I was maybe kindergarten and someone in school, they were talking about political parties and I asked my mom what we were.

1:59:26And she was like, we're Democrats because Democrats fight for the people. That was what she said. And my mom is still a Democrat today. But like, I don't know how much our party is still true to that. But I do know that that's our historical legacy is the party that fights for the little guy. And I think we're at our best when we do that today. We're at our worst when we stray from that. I agree with that. So I still believe the Democratic party can get back to those roots. I hope last year was a wake up call, especially the National Democratic Party about what needs to change and how we need to be different.

2:00:05If we're going to build a big coalition to take on the issues that we care about. But that's why I'm a Democrat and why I hope the party can get back to those roots. What are your aspirations politically outside of what you're doing right now? So yeah, I told you I went to seminary. I'm still in seminary. I have about about a year left of course work. I'm going slow since I'm doing all this other stuff. My goal is to go full time into the ministry whenever I'm done with seminary and I get my, get ordained. You basically kind of like pass in the bar after you go to law school. Like you go through seminary and you've got to get ordained, which is a whole different process.

2:00:44But I basically I want to become a minister full time. And I would love my pastor to probably listen to this podcast whenever he's ready to, to hang it up and retire. I would love to take over and lead my home church. So I say all that because I don't want to do politics forever. I like the work that I'm doing. I do think I'm making an impact. A lot of the bills that I've passed are actually helping people, helping students like the ones I taught. But it is a bruising business to be in. It's interesting because you're the type of person I want to go into politics. Well, but I've always said that the people that you want to do it don't want to do it.

2:01:26Well, it's terrible. I mean, everything about it is terrible. Exactly. Not everything about it. They're terrible people. Accel at it. There are great things about it. I really don't want, I don't, I am not a victim here. I have a great, this is a, no one was given this job away. I had to work to get this job right. I had to raise money. I did knock on thousands of doors. And I do, I mean, I, the fact that I, I went from serving 150 students at Rose Middle School in room 112 to now serving 5 .5 million Texas public school students as part of the Public Education Committee in the Texas House. So like that's, you know, I passed a bill to allow incarcerated minors to get a high school diploma while they're in prison.

2:02:03And then I got invited out to speak at their first graduation ceremony in the prison. And I saw these kids who made horrific mistakes, but I saw them with their parents with a cap and gown and suddenly their whole conception about who they were changed in an instant because of the bill that I passed. That's amazing. There's all kinds of terrible stuff in this, the corruption, the partisanship, the polarization, the tribalism, it's all terrible. But then like, you give a kid an opportunity to earn a diploma and you're just like, I can hang it up. Do you see a pathway where that stuff can be at least minimized, the negative aspects of politics?

2:02:44Yes. What is that pathway? One, I think this is a model right here, like having a place that we can all come together and listen to each other. I told you about your talent for listening. I learned this in my seminary training because what pastors do is listen a lot and how hard it is to actually listen to someone. Right. It's easy to stop talking. And then start talking when the person is done, right? Like exchanging monologues. Right. That's easy. But actually, being open to hearing someone is a whole different ballgame. You have to genuinely care. Yes. You have to recognize something in someone else, a part of yourself, right?

2:03:20Yes. That image, again, I would describe it as the image of God, but I don't want to make people feel weird about religion. But that's something, that's what it is. Well, because I think the most revolutionary teaching in my religion is the teaching to love your enemy. I mean, it's crazy from two perspectives. One, it's Jesus' acknowledging that we're going to have enemies. Because you could see a world where he's just like, don't have enemies, right? But if you're going to do difficult work, if you're going to speak your mind, if you're going to stand up to entrenched power, you're going to get some opponents, right?

2:03:51Yeah. But then the revolutionary part is that you were called to love your opponents and your enemies just as you love yourself. Yeah. It's easy to say in church. Right. Imagine, I mean, I try and fail every day to do that in legislature to see my opponents as children of God, to see Donald Trump as a child of God. I'm probably going to get a primary challenge, right? But he is. He is. Yeah. And that's a hard thing for progressives and Democrats to get their head around. But it's like until you, Dorothy Day, who is this great Catholic activist for the poor and labor organizer, she had this great quote where she said, you really only love God as much as you love the person you love the least.

2:04:39Wow. You only truly love God as much as you love the person you love the least. In other words, the test of Christianity is not, do you love Jesus? Because Jesus is pretty lovable. The test is, do you love Judas? Mmm. I mean, that is a, now that is, that is radical. Yeah. And I think that is the key to saving this whole American experiment. Right. Is how do you love your enemies? And how do you get that idea out there in the zeitgeist? That's part of the key, where you reject the idea of being this person that attacks their enemies. Which is also... Conquer their enemies. This is a big aspect of social media is constantly attacking people that disagree with you.

2:05:27I reject that. I have an engage in that and forever. I used to argue with people online that I realized I never feel good. I never changed their opinion. It doesn't do any good. And then you, even if I would like win, you know, air quotes, win some online, I never felt good. No. I felt terrible. So I actually had this happen to me in my first campaign. We were on Facebook, was the main platform at that time. And there was a guy who had written kind of a snarky comment about how I was a Democrat who wanted to take away everybody's guns. And I, again, I wanted to respond in anger, right? Because that's always your first instinct.

2:06:08Sure. But I tried to check that anger, try to remember my teachings. And I responded and I asked him to get coffee. This is a guy, just a guy in my comments, right? So that's wild. And so we actually met up for coffee. It turned out to be a lovely guy. He actually brought his wife and his kids, adorable kids. He talked about how he was, he was a gun enthusiast. And he was also a certified NRA safety officer. And so the more we talked, we actually got down to how we both really value safety in this conversation. And how he was talking about how gun owners in many ways are the biggest advocates for safety.

2:06:44And then we found some consensus on background checks, stuff like that. But it turned from this dunking in comments on social media to when we were face to face, human to human. Right. Suddenly we heard each other, right? We listened to each other. And he realized I was not trying to take people's guns. I have no interest in that. He recognized that I was just trying to find a way to safety, which is his value too. Right. Suddenly that's a conversation. I'm not saying I don't want to be, I'm trying, I'm not naive. This stuff often doesn't end well, right? You don't often get to an agreement. But I have seen over and over again that when you extend an open hand instead of a closed fist, it's a game changer.

2:07:20Yes. People mirror that behavior. And a person person, which is the only way human beings are really supposed to talk. And then that's the one of the beautiful things. That's also one of the reasons why it's been so easy for me to disengage with social media because I engage with social conversation. Like real social. Real social. Yeah. So it's like, you know, social media to me is not attractive. I get plenty of interaction with human beings, even human beings with completely different perspectives than I do. I'm very fortunate. I know that's not available to a lot of people. I get it. But I think people get something out of these conversations because of that.

2:08:00And they're hungry for it. Yeah. People are hungry for connection. And social media is almost like empty calories. Right. Feels like you're eating, like you're getting connection, but actually just end you more hungry. You're hungry at the end of the day. Yeah. There's a guy who I've had on the podcast. Is it Alan Levinovitz? Is that his name? Yes. He describes it as the same way consuming processed foods is bad for you. Yes. Processed information is bad for you. Oh, it's so good. It feels like food. It feels like food. It feels like information. It feels like interaction, but it's not. It's overly processed and it's gross.

2:08:37Well, this is the, you know, this certainly exists on both sides of the aisle. But I think in recent years this, you know, cancel culture on my side of the aisle has just become kind of the default spirituality on the left. Yes. And it is so toxic because nothing is more antithetical in my faith than canceling another human being. Right. Right. If we are all endowed with the sacred image, if we are all holy, then we are all of infinite worth. Right. And we are all entitled to unconditional love. Like that is, as a progressive, as a Democrat, like that is central to how I understand the world. That's why I fight for universal health care and against big money.

2:09:17It's because I believe each person is sacred. So then in a conversation where someone happens to not agree with you on a policy, even an important policy, the fact that you would write them off as irredeemable, as trash. Yeah. I just can't imagine anything more diametrically opposed to my values, my faith, but also to, I would think the values of the Democratic Party. I mean, the way you win in a democracy is you persuade people. You win the argument. Yes. But to say, you know, you are, you are now a bad person. Mm -hmm. You're a villain. I mean, it's making everyone too dimensional. It's also a byproduct of social media.

2:09:56Yes. Because there's this frustration that you're not face to face with that person. What I don't like the way they're talking, I don't like their perspective. Let's get rid of them forever. Yep. Cast them out of the kingdom. Yep. And, you know, Mark and Driesen had this very interesting way of describing what's going on with people. That it's akin to cult -like rituals. Is that, you know, you demand complete total compliance. When that person does not comply, you cast them out of, you get them out of the social group. You eliminate them, which is what cults do. Yeah. When someone does an agrarian, they're kicked out.

2:10:35And then you, you no longer engage with that person. And you treat that person like a pariah. And that also reinforces this idea that everybody has to be compliant. Otherwise, you will face the same fate as those people do. In the absence of any sort of religion, people form their own religion. Politics becomes a religion. 100%. Ideologies become religions. They find we have, for whatever reason, we have a default setting in our mind. And the way we interact with reality, that is very religious. Whether we like it or not. I mean, that is inherent in our species. We are a moral, believing species.

2:11:19That's what separates us from all the other animals. We can think abstractly, think about the future in the past. Tell stories, and then ask questions about what this all means. Why are we all here on this floating rock out in the middle of a vast infinite universe? The least connected, most lost people I know are atheists. And that is really weird to me. That is really weird. These people that reject religion for whatever reason, they seem less connected and less engaged with reality. It is very strange. It is very strange. And also, more rigid in their perspectives. More rigid in their ideology.

2:12:04Their ideology becomes their God. It becomes, yeah. Oftentimes, I feel like atheists or agnostics have very valid criticisms of organized religion. For sure. Sometimes they see the church more clearly than I can on the inside of how it is not living up to its values. I think the thing you are hitting on is that there is a baby in that bath water. Yes. Right. If we just throw out the whole thing, I mean, now we are conducting an experiment on humanity in real time. Of what happens when you take this believing species and a rabbit of any community to make sense of the world? I mean, now that is why I honestly believe that is why we see higher rates of anxiety and depression.

2:12:50Especially among young people, because they are growing up in an incoherent universe. Yes. Absolutely. And accentuated by social media for sure, this over -processed information. I think there is a perspective that people have that their way is the way that they have to defend. And that other ways are the wrong way. And I think there is a spectrum when it comes to everything. And religion, like, let's say, if you are looking at someone who is a right -wing person, who is a conservative person, conservative Christian, who is a Republican, they look at the left like Antifa. They see Antifa. They see the summer of love in Seattle.

2:13:33They see that as like the worst aspects. And I think someone who is agnostic or atheist, they look at like the Joel Olstein's. They look at these mega -church pastors. They look at these hypocrites that drive roles, voices, and fly in private jets, and make millions and millions of dollars off of their followers as the worst aspects of Christianity. Because that is the worst aspects of Christianity in a lot of ways. It's the bastardization of the teachings. The taking advantage of people that want to believe and using it for their own personal gain. But this is like those people's hypocrites and these think of all these people as the worst aspects of society.

2:14:15Because they are looking at the worst aspects of this one group that's comprised of a billion people. Which is kind of crazy, but that's what we do. And it's not just religion. A big criticism I have of my own side is that, you know, I mentioned earlier this pattern of order, disorder, reorder, as the pattern of the universe that these religions are talking about. And we all, you know, were born into certain stories, whether it's religion, patriotism, masculinity, these are stories that were born into. We grow up and we start to question these stories, which is natural. I feel like my side is stuck on that second step.

2:14:57We haven't made it to that third step, that reordering, that resurrection, reincarnation, where we're taking these things and we are understanding them a new. Because religion can be toxic, but it is not inherently toxic. Right. Patriotism can be toxic, but it is not inherently toxic. Masculinity can be toxic, but it is not inherently toxic. Like understanding that these are things that we can reclaim and be proud of, I think it's something that hasn't quite seeped in on my side. So we end up just rejecting all of it. You're all religion is bad. Patriotism is bad and naive, right? And I just don't think those things are true.

2:15:38So I do think our challenge on my side of the Alice, how do you get to that third step of feeling disillusioned, but then using that to rise and create something new and reclaim? Yes, politics has corrupt, but it doesn't have to be. Right. Every system we have is a choice. They're human systems. We made them. Right. Right. I mean, we can make it better if we make that decision to do so. You know, I do feel like right now cynicism is like the hottest thing. It's very cool to be, you know, too cool for school. But I do think earnestness and hope and optimism are going to make it come back. Well, that's why people like you, I'd like to see more of in politics.

2:16:20And you're trying not to leave. You're trying to get out. I'm not leaving right away. I just, I do think there are other ways to make an impact outside of politics. You have them. You have them. Yeah. I can do that in the ministry. Like, I do think we're missing that moral clarity in our political conversation that really can only come from faith leaders. I think the cynical perspective is that at the highest levels, it's all being controlled by money and that's not going to change. You know, like the people that were very hopeful for change when Trump got into office, one of the things that everyone was promised was your life.

2:16:54You're going to find out the Epstein client list and you're going to find out who killed JFK and what the UFOs were all about. You know, I heard a fucking beat about any of that shit. Yeah. No one knows nothing. And today they just finally said there's no client list. There's no videos. I mean, I had cash betel. These people, you know, cash came on the podcast and said there's no, there's nothing that you want to see. You know, he's got nothing you need to see. Dan Bongino, who's always like shouting from the rooftops. We're going to get to the bottom of this and find out who these people are.

2:17:22Everyone's saying no, no, Epstein killed himself. No, nothing to see here. And it's like, okay, well, that's why people are cynical. People are cynical because you, you know, you had all this hope for change. And then you realize like, oh, the same people that are pulling the strings are still pulling the strings. Well, it doesn't, you know, it doesn't help when there are videos of the president hanging around with. And everybody else, including Nobel Prize winning scientists. Yes. Yeah, it's not just limited. Yeah, I mean, it's that, that whatever that compromise organization was, whatever that thing was that they were running, whatever this game was that I'm sure they're running another version of it right now, where they provide experiences to people that have a very difficult time, you know, being getting out there and having their fun, you know, and then they compromised them.

2:18:14I mean, I think this is, it's a time honored tactic of control. It's been around forever. And obviously it works. Look, if you, if you have so much interest in getting to the bottom of this, like universally on both sides of the aisle and yet nothing gets done, that tends to give people this, this, this fear that cynicism is the correct perspective. And, and I want to, I want to validate that that there, there is reason and good reasons to be disillusioned. I guess I'm all I'm pushing back on is that second step of it's always going to be this way. Right. It doesn't have to be this way. That is the key step.

2:18:59Right. So I, that's what you need to run for president. We need someone who's actually a good person. Well, you know, because the Democrats have very few candidates that are. Can I, can I actually push back on that please because we're talking about how religion, how politics has become a religion. This is one of the ways it does is people put all their faith in a politician. No, because I saw, I've seen it with Bernie. Yeah. On my, I mean, people, and I like Bernie a whole lot, but some people treat him as if he's a messianic figure. Well, because he's probably, and Trump only, right, people treat him as a messiah in some ways.

2:19:32Like this is a problem. One of the only ones that's been remarkably consistent in America. I know. And so they still applaud you big, right? I mean, just like we're all rare. That's, it's so rare. I know my point is that should be praised. But instead of like the, the change is going to come from your listeners. Yeah. Not from me. Right. I can be a part of that. But I mean, if there's any hope I can give people, it's that the people in power, including the billionaire mega donors who basically run this whole thing, and I can get more into that if you want. Please do. But they are very afraid of the power that the people have.

2:20:08That I know for sure. How so? Because they spend so much time. Let me just, so let's talk about the two billionaires that I think basically control state government here in Texas. And you, I don't know if you or even your listeners necessarily know about them, it's two billionaires from West Texas. Their names are Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes. Dunn and Wilkes. They made their money oil and gas. I was just going to say some people get them confused with Brooks and Dunn. Wilkes and Dunn is the bad one. Brooks and Dunn. Good one. But they made their money in oil and gas. But they are also Christian nationalist pastors.

2:20:46Which, you know, billionaire pastor, you know, you would think that's an oxymoron. But on Sunday mornings, these two billionaires, they preach at these far right churches. And they've got very extreme views. They don't think anybody who's not a Christian should serve an elected office. Whoa. In fact, you can look this up. Don't take my word for it. Do your own research. But they, they said, they told the former Republican Speaker of the Texas House, a guy named Joe Strauss, from San Antonio, that he didn't have a right to be speaker because he's Jewish. And that's a Republican. So, so they, they are dominionists.

2:21:22They're Christian nationalists as the world that they have. But they basically, every single Republican state senator in Texas has taken their money. Every single one. A majority of the Republicans in the, in the state house have taken their money. And for some of those lawmakers, a majority of their total campaign contributions come from just these two guys. Like they, they increasingly run this whole, this whole government here in Texas. And you ask where the, um, tank and payments bill comes from, comes from, you ask where that school counselor, Chaplin bill comes from, the voucher bill, the abortion ban, a lot of this is driven by these two billionaires.

2:22:03That's wild. And they, they give to politicians, but it's actually much bigger than that because they have this sprawling network of think tanks, advocacy organizations, media outlets, um, the daily wire, right, funded by them. So like they are, they are creating an empire to, to control every aspect of the state. I mean, I don't mean to sound alarmist, but that is, that's what's happening. You can, and again, your listeners should do their own research on this to learn about it. But there's been a lot of stories about these two billionaires and their control over state government. And I say this because...

2:22:41But a big part of the daily wire is bench peril and bench peril is very Jewish. Well, and, and these two billionaires hosted a, a meeting with Nick Fuentes, who is a Holocaust denier. And he's got a lot of pushback. Nick Fuentes? He's a denier. Or does he debate the numbers? Well, to be fair, I don't listen to a lot of Nick Fuentes, which is on me, but... Who funds it? Dewey serves. Yep. Dan and Ferris Wilkes, daily wire was launched in 2015. Billionaire, petroleum industry, brothers. And again, I think the important part about these two guys, that's maybe more important than the oil and gas stuff, is that they, they have this extreme religious worldview.

2:23:25And they have the money to be able to actually implement that worldview on 30 million people in the state of Texas. And now they're trying to go national by trying to win a U .S. Senate seat. So, I mean, if your listeners haven't heard of Tim Dunn and Ferris Wilkes, they need to, one, because not only do they make policy increasingly for 30 million Texans, but now they're trying to go national, and a lot of their views and a lot of their politics are going to become nationalized. I interrupted you when you were talking about Nick Fuentes. Well, so my point was that Dunn and Wilkes, from, and I probably become the most outspoken critic of, of these guys, because I do think people need to know their names, right?

2:24:05You, you open up your social media feed, you listen to the news, and you hear about Greg Abbott and Dan Patrick, or even James Talleriko, but you don't actually hear about the two guys who run the whole thing. So, but my, my point is that they spend so much of their energy and their money and their time trying to create wedges between people. So, let's just take schools, for, for instance, the centerpiece of their agenda was this centerpiece school voucher bill, which you probably heard about, which is basically taking money that, that would go to neighborhood public schools and sending that money to religious private schools.

2:24:41Those who are around Dunn and Wilkes say that their ultimate vision is to replace public schooling with religious schooling for everyone. That's, that's going to try to get to. Yes. Wow. And so, but, but they know that Texans love their public schools, right? Like, I mean, public education is enshrined in our state's constitution, Friday night lights, and a lot of these small towns, the school, is not just an academic institution. It is the, the community hub that brings people together. So, if Dunn and Wilkes want to get rid of public education, which I think they do, and I think the journalism bears this out, they've got to drive a wedge between people in their public school community.

2:25:21And so, they deliberately fund a lot of the book stuff, a lot of the cultural stuff, the craziness at school boards. A lot of that is kind of funded and organized through the Dunn and Wilkes empire. Of course, you know, people should go to the school board if they have an authentic problem with the school district, which that happens a lot. But when you actually look into where, when you follow the money about who's getting the people to show up, who is, who is distributing the information, who is riling people up about some of this stuff, and undermining trust in public education, it's often done in Wilkes.

2:25:58And it isn't in pursuit of this policy goal, which is to defund and close neighborhood schools. And we've already seen schools close all over the state of Texas, because they're being systematically underfunded. So, I just, I use this as an example, not, there are valid critiques of public schools. Don't make it me wrong, and I've made those critiques myself. But when you look at where the money's coming from and the fact that it is intentionally drawing a wedge, or putting a wedge between people, and undermining trust and education, so that they can privatize it and profit off of it, I think that whole story needs to be recognized.

2:26:32So people can understand how the left versus right stuff is actually not as important as the top versus bottom stuff. Yeah. That these billionaires are going to, we're not going to have public schools that a lot of, I would, I would, I would, there's no way I'd be on Joe Rogan right now if I hadn't had Texas public schools, because my mom didn't go to college. The only way I got to college is because of public schools, free high quality public schools, period. And I think there's a lot of people who would say the same thing. And you were saying they're trying to verify of, yes, because what they're worried about is, and I'll take the voucher fight in particular, we almost beat this voucher bill because it was a coalition of Democrats in urban and suburban areas, and then rural small town Republicans coming together, because we all benefit from public schools.

2:27:21Right. We set aside our party differences, even some of our ideological differences, and we said, we all need well funded public schools that can actually give our kids the opportunities they deserve. That coalition was not only a threat to Greg Abbott or Dan Patrick, it was a threat to Dunham Wilkes, because if we recognize that we have far more in common, then the stuff that divides us, then that's a threat to their power. It's a threat to their wealth. That unity, that loving, loving your enemy is not just morally good, it's not just idealistic. It is good strategic advice, because when we're united, when we're together, then we make it a lot harder for those two guys to come in and dismantle these, these ladders of opportunity that we have, and we have fewer and fewer ladders of opportunity.

2:28:12Public schools are one of them. So I think this is a prime example of what I mean when I say a lot of the divisions, a lot of the platforms that are dividing us that are run by billionaires, all of that is intentional so that we are fighting each other, instead of asking hard questions about the wealthy special interests and what their agenda is. That is just the phenomenon that I have seen in my four terms, and I don't know if everyone is fully awake to that that we're getting played. I don't think people are, and I think you saying it is very important. I think most people are unaware of it.

2:28:48Well, how would they know? How would they know? This is a problem with media. Like the mainstream media, for some reason, will not name these two guys. I think it's like this gentleman's agreement, or you have to talk about the elected officials. I'm like, it doesn't matter who the elected officials are, if these billionaires buy whoever is elected. This to me is the real story, and I honestly don't, there are some outlets that are covering it, but just most of them don't. I'll even bring them up in an interview, like on local news, it'll get taken out of the interview. Yeah, because they don't want the lawsuits, I get it.

2:29:23They don't want the attention. I even put a video on TikTok explaining Dun and Wilkes. It was like, the TikTok was getting a lot of engagement, and then it stopped all of a sudden. I think it was because the algorithm, or the, I don't know how it works, but the platform itself had decided to stop the video from spreading. Wow. So, I mean, that is, I just do think people have to your listeners, who maybe some of them are psychopolitics. They think it's all corrupt. That is all true. I validate that. But until you educate yourself, until you do dig a little deeper, until you recognize the way this system is operating, you're not going to have the tools and the knowledge you need to upend that system, which it can absolutely be upended.

2:30:08We almost beat their voucher bill because we had that coalition of across the aisle and scattering the tribal dynamics of our politics. So ultimately, we didn't win. It kind of came down to a photo finish, but it did to me provide a template for what happens if we actually loved our enemies, if we rebuilt these relationships. Like, who could we take on if we did it together? Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and progressives, like, I don't know. Sometimes I sound a little polyanna. No, no, I think you're onto something. I think what you're saying is absolutely true, though, that it's not us versus them.

2:30:46It's the top versus the bottom. They have all the power. Yeah. And it seems like they enjoy wielding it for their own benefit. And what's their ultimate goal? You know, I think if I'm taking the journalism that's been done on Dunham Wilkes, I think their ultimate goal is a theocracy. And again, this is very personal, given how important my faith is to me, but I'm a Christian and I think there is no more dangerous form of government than theocracy. Because the only thing worse than a tyrant is a tyrant who thinks they're on a mission from God. We have had any good examples of that in the past. No, it's not one that you go, well, that one worked out.

2:31:26Right. And so I again, this is people trying to use my religion to control people. Yeah. That's that's the name of the game. And we're seeing that here. I mean, Texas is I'm an eighth generation Texan. My family's been here since it was Mexico. I love this state, but I've just seen people like Dunham Wilkes just take us in this far right culture war direction. At the expense of actual problems we need to solve, one of the bills that didn't pass last legislative last legislative session was a bill that would have provided funding for flood mitigation and emergency emergency systems to get the word out when there's a flood.

2:32:03And we literally just saw the consequence of not passing that bill. Over the weekend. Why would they not want that passed? That seems like you wanted. Okay, we're we're talking we're honestly here. Okay. That bill was passed by representative Ken King, a Republican. Someone I often have disagreements with. But he's a good man. He's from far North Panhandle where they saw historic wildfires last year. So he put this bill that would have addressed wildfires, wildfires also flooding. And and would have I think saved some of the lives in the hill country over the weekend during those catastrophic floods.

2:32:39That bill passed the state house, the lower chamber than I'm in on a bipartisan basis. Overwhelmingly Democrats and Republicans said this is good policy. Let's pass it. Damn Patrick, the lieutenant governor, who controls the state Senate, which is the upper chamber. He held that bill hostage so that he could get his THC ban through. And for again, I know this may confuse people outside of Texas. We legalized hemp a few years ago. It's a booming industry. It's a product that's providing people a lot of relief. Damn Patrick decided to put this bill forward that would ban all THC products in the state of Texas basically close hundreds of businesses across the state.

2:33:17Lay off thousands of people. Let's go back follow the money. Okay. What industry do you think was most invested in taking this new product off the market pharmaceutical drugs? No alcohol. Big alcohol. Big beer. And I guess I love beer. This is not a critique of them. My point is they use their influence to take a competitor out of the market. By the way, a competitor that is research suggests is safer and less addictive than alcohol. Again, I'm not disparaging alcohol, but it has a lot of negative side effects and a lot of negative in his very addictive. I have members of my family who struggle with addiction and struggle with alcoholism.

2:34:03THC can be under the right circumstances and alternative. I mean, there are seniors who use it for chronic pain. There are veterans who use it for PTSD. They're just Texans with anxiety who use it to chill out at the end of a long stressful day. And so the fact that the lieutenant governor one would do the bidding of one industry over the other two would hold up literally a life saving bill that could have possibly saved lives over the weekend in those in those floods. And so it's just to cater to wealthy special interests to me is just encapsulation of everything that's wrong with politics. Right?

2:34:41I mean, yeah, what agree with that. So that's the kind of when I told you my second term I started to feel discouraged. That's the stuff. Because you just walk. I mean, I'm still I'm politicians are still people like I walk out of that chamber just feeling totally and utterly defeated. Right? Like I feel like I'm pushing against the ocean sometimes. Yeah. And people are going to suffer with this THC benefit goes into place needlessly needlessly. It's foolish. It's really foolish. And it's not the direction the country's going. The country's going towards legalization, which it should and then also taxing.

2:35:16Yeah. It would be a tremendous tax benefit to everybody. The tremendous revenue benefit to the state and regulation. I'm open. I actually voted for a regulation bill. Right? We shouldn't have smoke shops right next to schools. Right? The packaging shouldn't look like kids candy. I'm all for that. Pesticize or besides toxic chemicals. All that is used from them. And yeah. But to do a total draconian ban. Again, there's a thing with abortion. It's just like forward the alcohol industry. That's fascinating. Again, all I do is follow the money. I don't again, I don't want to cast aspersions. It's not like the lieutenant governor said I'm just doing this for the alcohol industry.

2:35:53Of course. I'm just I'm reading the tea leaves, especially when a policy doesn't make sense. Right? That's when I ask questions. Right? When you're just like, you know, because they'll be like, well, you know too many kids are getting these products. Well, okay, let's pass a reform bill where we keep it out of the hands of kids. What? But we kids have been getting weed since the beginning of time. I mean, that's also true. Well, I mean, this is the whole thing about killing them. This is all this is the whole thing. I want to say this. I never thought when I got elected to the state legislature, I would talk so much about sex.

2:36:23I literally there are so many weird bills about pornography. It was a bill about dildos, which I can't believe I've said that on this podcast. But what's the bill about? I think it's a I think it's a bill regulating where dildos can be in like a store. Anyway, like I just I didn't I have not I've heard a lot of things from my constituents. Healthcare crime. You know, education. I've literally never had a constituent reach out about dildos. But my colleagues feel the need to need to pass bills about this stuff. So I end up being in a weird position where I'm having to talk about some of these issues like this issue of pornography, which has been used to do book banning.

2:37:06And I'm it's an interesting discussion that we should get into. But the idea that teenagers are going to the school library for their pornography. Again, just kind of. Yeah, you know, it's common sense that I feel like sometimes we're just completely lacking in. In places like the Capitol. Well, listen, James, I really appreciate you coming on here because you're providing a perspective that I think it's very difficult to acquire. I don't think most people have any idea how the system actually works. And the fact that you're willing to do this and to speak so frankly and so so well about this and really explain it to us in a way that's digestible.

2:37:46I really appreciate it. I appreciate it. You this is a special platform you've created here and it really is an opportunity. I think to love our enemies again. So I just couldn't be proud of to be invited on my pleasure. So let's do it again sometime. I love to don't quit. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. All right. Bye everybody.