#2440 - Matt Damon & Ben Affleck

25:57So we had to say, look, we're not asking you to take a cut. But, you know, and we can tell you, if the movie is watched as many hours in the first 90 days as like this movie A, that you all know what it is, then that's, you know, 20 % of your salary, let's say, right? I mean, you should take a hit. So it's like, yeah, you make more money, your bonus is more. It's all just pegged to where you're at just because that was the most fair idea we'd come up with. So they gave us like five different levels, right? like the first couple we hopefully we can hit and maybe the third maybe we get and then it got to like the fifth it's kind of like single double triple home run home run fucking grand slam the fifth one was was 110 of all netflix viewers or something like that so it's everybody who has a netflix account watches it and then like 10 of them watch it again and we were like k-pop demon but that's what happened we were laughing and then k-pop demon hunters came along and actually did that that's the first movie that's ever jesus yeah well i think a lot of autistic kids watch that over and over and over and over and over again.

26:53I haven't seen it, but I mean, somebody's watching it over and over again. Oh, yeah. Dude, people love it. I mean, it's, you know, the value of it is, because before this, one of the big things and everybody's fighting over in the strike is like, well, share your chance. There used to be residuals, right? And residuals, and it was only for SAG and a few other things, but it was like, and you knew if you had a line in the movie and there would be a certain number, like at the box office, well, you're going to get another 2 ,000 bucks. And that was a big deal. You get that check in the mail I'm like, okay, I can pay the rent for another month and I can do that shit.

27:23But then there was this sort of ill – what constitutes success? Because streamer doesn't actually sell another ticket if you watch that movie, right? And it's hard to tell. Well, why did you sign up for this service, right? So for a while, everyone was looking at the first thing that you looked at when you subscribed to somebody. Okay, you're going to go buy Hulu? What did you watch first? The bear. Well, the bear must be creating value for us. But you can't assign a strict numerical value to it because it's like a box office where you can go, well, Oppenheimer is a billion dollars or whatever.

27:54And that's another billion dollars on our balance sheet because streamers are doing a subscription model. Whether it's like a gym membership or in the fucking first of the year, you're like, I'm going to work out again. I'm going to buy that annual membership. And you go twice or you go to the gym every single day, you're paying the same amount. Also, the weird thing is with streaming, when you're opening up Netflix, it's not like you're going to the movie theater and there's seven movies playing. You're opening up Netflix and you have an unlimited option list. It's insane how much content. You could waste the rest of your life sitting in front of Netflix and then die and have millions of hours more to listen to or watch.

28:33You're right. Like when we'd start researching that and built our own data to pull people and examine all this stuff, it's actually all the library stuff that people are watching all the time. If you said like the new stuff is theoretically what keeps people with the subscription or whatever. But in terms of like volume of time, I think it doesn't come from them. But it looks a lot like, you know, we're going to watch like Orange is the New Black and the episode of Suits and the old Seinfeld and Friends and, you know, Cupcake Wars. You know, that's because Americans watch six hours of TV a day.

29:07That's crazy. And then the other six hours, they're on their phone. How does anything get done? How does anything get done? When you started to make this film, like, what is the process? Like, how did you guys agree on it? Like, did you guys have it written first? Joe Conner, right? Before you knew you were going to Netflix with it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He came to us with the script, and we've known Joe for a really—he did a movie. His first movie was called Nark. I don't know if you ever saw it. Yeah, it's a great movie. So we met him way back this, 25 years ago or something like that. So we met him back then.

29:39And Ben did a movie of his in 2004, I think. So we've known Joe for a really long time and kind of been in touch with him over the years. And he just sent this to us. We read it and we thought it was great and bought it for the company. And then we started talking to Joe about how he wanted to do it. And he suggested that we actually do the movie. um and we and we were like yeah why don't we do it it seems basically because we liked it and we like we're not trying to just do our movies we want to be you know doing movies with all these the people that we like respect and and and then you know the way we sort of set it up is such that to try to get like the historically the way it's worked is like the you know studio will own a uh an ip or a script or whatever and then you cut and they'll say okay we want you to do it okay well how much well how much did you get for the last one right and you go then what's the budget and then that's how they assign a value to it right but like my belief was well especially when these streams are coming into the market and and chasing stuff is like this movie may may be worth more it may be worth less and that like we're all just subject to that so we'll try to get the best price for it and we'll all share it you know pro rata and essentially that that was the same process we've done eight i guess movies or so now and and uh we took it out and you know people wanted it And then one of the things that was really appealing about Netflix was that they were open to this idea that we've been trying to institutionalize.

31:05I was like, okay, great. That's really meaningful because ideally it becomes a template that other people go, hey, we want to do that thing. And I mean, oh, here's the paperwork. Yeah, that's the thing. Like a lot of people say that they would want to do it, but now the template exists. So it's like plug and play. So if you're not full of shit and you really do mean that, then guess what? Just take this and do it. And it also is going to let you, you know, I hope, like manage the risk. In other words, the argument you always have is like, well, shit, we got to invest all this money in the movie.

31:34So you can't have your protagonist be too objectionable. That's too edgy or can't be R-rated because it costs this much. I get it, right? You're going to put all your money into it. You don't want money to fucking disappear. You want to make money. OK. So like when we wrote the first movie, Good Will Hunting, it was like we knew that had to be a cheap movie. People talking in rooms to each other because no one's going to put a bunch of money into a movie. And do a movie with us. Two assholes that no one heard of. So it was like, okay, what can we do that's interesting and try to keep it as inexpensive as possible so that we can make the argument that someone should make the movie?

32:06That same logic carries through every time you're asking somebody to invest in something. so what I'd like to have happen is to say okay now that we know there's a reliable system where we understand that like in success we'll actually benefit we can lower you know the price up front for you so that you can have a low fucking barrier to entry so that you can take the risk so that we can do something really interesting that's that's an original idea that's a you know that's an I'm and I'm or a Sinners or Marty Supreme or whatever it is and and then if it's successful we're not still sitting here like assholes where you know, you guys walk off with all the money, and you can have that happen in an ongoing way, so that you can make more insurance.

33:05A lot of the stuff that was going on with strikes, was centered around AI and what AI is going to do to the business. Where do you feel is going to be the biggest problem with AI? Is it going to be with people's likenesses? Because there's a lot of that where they want to use extras and own their digital rights forever, essentially be able to recreate them in any kind of film. But then there's also you're going to have films that are written by artificial intelligence. You're going to have scenes that don't involve people. And it gets weird. right? It gets really weird but there's actually an area of expertise for him Yeah, we've been spending time looking at this my belief is sort of like what's going to happen with electricity well a lot of shit's going to happen with electricity.

33:49Some of it's going to be good some of it's going to change stuff, some of it's going to be like, you know, this is going to be shit that kills a bunch of people it's opening a door that you can't you know, say well talk about in kind of a blanket way but I think with what I see is, for example, if you try to get ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini to write you something. It's really shitty. And it's shitty because by its nature, it goes to the mean, to the average. And it's not reliable. And it's, I mean, I just can't stand to see what it writes. Now, it's a useful tool if you're a writer and you're going, ah, what's the thing?

34:26I'm trying to set something up or somebody sends someone a letter, but it's delayed two days and gets, and it can give you some examples of that. I actually don't think it's very likely that it's going to be able to write anything meaningful, and in particular that it's going to be making movies like from whole cloth like Tilly Norwood. Like that's bullshit. I don't think that's going to happen. I think it actually turns out the technology is not progressing in exactly the same way they sort of presented it. And really what it is is going to be a tool, just like sort of visual effects. And yeah, it needs to have language around it.

34:58You need to protect your name and likeness. You can do that. You can watermark it. Those laws already exist. I can't sell your fucking picture for money. I can't. You can sue me, period. I might have the ability to draw you, to make you in a very realistic way, but that's already against the law. And the unions are going to, the guilds are going to manage this where it's like, okay, look, if this is a tool that actually helps us, for example, we don't have to go to the North Pole, right? We can shoot the scene here in our parkas and, you know, whatever it is, but then make it appear very realistically as if we're in the North Pole.

35:31it'll save us a lot of money, a lot of time. We're going to focus on the performances and not be freezing our ass off out there and running back inside. That's useful. Just like Spencer Tracy and Katharine Hepburn used to be driving their car and there's a wind blowing a painting behind them and it looked goofy. Now people use a lot of computer generated stuff and some of it is going to replace just that. Instead of 500 guys in Singapore making$2 an hour to render all the graphics for a superhero movie, there's going to be able to do that a lot easier. There's already laws around and guild guidelines around like how many union extras you have to use.

36:07But also we've been tiling extras like there weren't a million orcs in Middle Earth. You know what I mean? There aren't Invictus. There weren't all those people in the stadium. Like that's something we've been doing. It kind of feels to me like the thing we were talking about earlier where there's a lot more fear because we have the sense that's existential dread. It's going to wipe everything out. But that actually runs counter, in my view, to what history seems to show, which is, A, adoption is slow. It's incremental. I think a lot of that rhetoric comes from people who are trying to justify valuations around companies.

36:40They go, we're going to change everything. In two years, there's going to be no more work. Well, the reason they're saying that is because they need to ascribe a valuation for investment that can warrant the capex spend they're going to make on these data centers with the argument that, like, oh, you know, So as soon as we do the next model, it's going to scale up, it's going to be three times as good. Except that actually ChatGPT5, about 25 % better than ChatGPT4 and costs about four times as much in the way of electricity and data. So those nice things, it's like plateauing. The early AI, the line went up very steeply and it's now sort of leveling off.

37:16I think it's because, and yes, it'll get better, but it's going to be really expensive to get better. and a lot of people were like fuck this we want your hgb4 because it turned out like the vast majority of people who use ai are using it to like as like companion bots to chat with at night and so there's no work there's no productivity there's no value to it i would argue there's also not a lot of social value to getting people to like focus on an ai friend who's you know telling you that you're great and listening to everything you say and being sycophantic that's sort of a side issue i think for this particular purpose like the way i see the technology and what it's good at and what it's not it's going to be good at filling in all the places that are expensive and burdensome and they make it harder to do it and it's always going to rely fundamentally on the human artistic aspects of it well i think the more it becomes ubiquitous the more people are going to appreciate real things that are made by real people you know You still appreciate a handmade table.

38:16You're going to appreciate... Did you see The Beast and Me, Claire Danes? Yeah. No, I didn't. Fucking great. Yeah, I heard it was great. That lady. Woo! That was terrific. Woo! When she's in a scene, you're just like, Jesus Christ. Great, great actress. Like her fucking lips are quivering. You believe everything that she's saying. But you're right. People want that. You can't fake that. I'll say I did this interview with Dwayne Johnson because when people are in these awards things, they sometimes have other actors interview them. And I did this interview with Dwayne, and I asked him, there's this scene in The Smashing Machine where he's overdosed on drugs and his buddy comes to see him in the hospital.

38:57Yeah. And it really walloped me, this scene. I thought it was so great. And I asked him, and I was just like, can you just tell me about this scene? Did Benny Safdie directed it? Did Benny write that? Did you work on that scene with them? He goes, no, we actually worked on it together. And I go, well, how did that scene come to be? And Dwayne goes, well, my father was an alcoholic. And I don't remember if he said substance abuser or alcoholic, but I didn't know the man. I don't want to impugn him. But he had a substance issue, whatever it was. He goes, and when he would talk to me, that's how he would defend himself.

39:32It was almost a bargaining thing. Because there's this thing when this guy comes to him, he's overdosed. And Dwayne's amazing in this scene. And he's going like, yeah, isn't it crazy? And then I woke up and thought, I mean, I could hear him, but I couldn't really hear him. And you see him and he's kind of tap dancing. And his friend finally kind of holds his feet to the fire. And at that moment, Dwayne literally starts to burst into tears and just pulls the hospital sheet up over his head. And it's like, and it's, I mean, it's just, it was, I'm not doing it justice if you haven't. I mean, I know you've seen it.

40:05I know you've seen it. It's amazing. but um he said yeah so he explains that about his father and then he goes and and uh when my mom was diagnosed with stage three lung cancer I was with her when the oncologist came in and she was lying in the hospital bed and when he gave her the news she pulled the sheet up over her head and I looked at her and she just looked like a little like a little kid you know and I was like all right like So that, right, is two traumatic events from this guy's life, right, from his life experience. And the actor in him, right, sees this scene, goes into his memory, pulls these two things out, understands that they're appropriate for this scene and he can marry them together in the scene.

40:53And then he goes and performs it that way. and a dude walking in off the road goes to the movies sees this understands somehow that it's fucking real i didn't know why i that's why i wanted to ask him how did that scene come to be i genuinely didn't know and made me tear up and you know like that is there's no fucking ai that You can do that. No. It's a whole lot more than photorealistic images. Yeah. Yeah. You could have an AI understand Dwayne's face and move his face into different... No fucking thing could ever do that. The complications of real life experiences relayed... That is a completely human...

41:36That is an artist. That's a piece of art. Yes. That comes out of a lived human experience. That movie gave me so much anxiety. There's moments where Emily Blunt is arguing... She's so fucking good in that movie. She's so good. I said I really said I like that I think I think that's the best she's ever been I love you know we live in the same building in New York she's like very dear friend of mine and I and I I I was like I really think that's the best she's ever been and then I said and then I blurted that out to Chris Nolan and and he kind of stopped and looked at me like he didn't say it but he was kind of like she's pretty fucking good in my movie too well she's great period she's great period but there's something about that well I knew Mark I knew Mark from I met Mark in 97 when he was fighting in the UFC.

42:17So I knew the whole journey of him. And I was so happy for Dwayne because it was a film where instead of being this fucking superhero blockbuster Hulk of a man, he gets to be that, but be a great actor. And, you know, you can't really get a person to look like that, to express emotions and express and and he was mark kerr i know if you know mark i mean it was fucking great i completely forgot it was him and somebody who had seen it before told me that was going to happen and i was like all right we'll see and it was like from the second it started it didn't get the credit it deserved in terms of like the amount of people that went to see it but i think overall in time people appreciate it that's what people go back to yeah because it's It's a movie about MMA, so a lot of people are like, I don't want to see a movie about a bunch of fucking meatheads, but it's not.

43:12It's not at all. It's just a movie that happens to be around MMA, but it's a great movie. The scenes are fucking fantastic. They're fucking fantastic. The acting is so good. Absolutely. And even the fight scenes, they're so realistic, man. It's really like I saw all those fights. They've recreated those fights about as good as you can get. Yeah. And just his crazy struggle. And you know the story behind the documentary, The Smashing Machine? No. So The Smashing Machine was made when Mark was at the height of his powers and pride. And he was the most terrifying guy in the world. He was 265 pounds of solid muscle just blowing through people.

43:52Didn't even look like a human being. Everyone was terrified of him. No one knew he was a drug addict. No one knew. And he spiraled out as they were filming. And he let them film him. Let them film him shooting up. Let them film him like bringing this giant bag of pills with him and all this shit everywhere and just completely falling apart. While they were supposed to be capturing this hero movie of the greatest fighter in the world, he's falling apart like live in front of the documentary. It was a fucking amazing documentary. I got to see it. It's really good. But I was so happy that they put it in a film.

44:28And I was so happy that it gave Dwayne a vehicle to show what he's really capable of. Because he's so limited by a lot of just the parameters of the roles that he was in. Yeah, and by, like, galactic success, too, right? I mean, it's he had to and will continue to have to push for that, right? Because it's what he wants. Yeah. And not because what they're going to continue to want him to do is, you know, the thing that mints them money. Yeah. But I suspect that his experience and feeling about this movie. From the conversations I've had with him, yeah, this has changed him. Well, I mean, it's this thing that these superhero guys have to do where it's like something has to change because otherwise you're going to be boxed.

45:21And with a guy that looks like that, it's so easy to put him in that box. And so you see him now. He's thinner. He's lost a lot of weight. Dave Bautista went through a very similar thing, too, right? He wanted to have more range, wanted to have more opportunities to do exciting and different challenging things. Well, I think also coming from where he came from, right? It's like you talk about going from TV to movies in the old days. Try coming from wrestling to, like, the biggest movie star in the world, right? It's incredible that he did that. and now he's in this place where he's got this leverage because he's so beloved that he can kind of tailor what he wants from here on out.

46:02It's hard to bring the audience with you. Right. You're like, no, no, no, I know you like this thing, but let me show you something else. It's sort of like you go to the concert, the band wants to play the new songs, play the fucking hits, you know. He's always a little gilded gaze. All right, fucking satisfaction. Yeah. No, I love the song too. You know my acoustic thing that I did? Yeah, I went to see the Stones when they were here in town, and there was a few songs they played that were new songs. Oh, really? You see the audience is like, okay, okay. Go get a beer. Get the other one. Yeah, that's what I mean.

46:38But every artist, I guess, has to make that choice, and he's made it. And it was an amazing vehicle, too, because he still kept that superhuman, hulkish frame, but also showed, like, God, there's amazing depth there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the thing that's, I think, especially because it's collaborative, it happens to other people, that's what movies do that other shit doesn't do, which is just create, like, you feel for people. It's empathy. It's all made up, right? That's not him. It's all an illusion. It's all bullshit. But if you do it really well with, like, you know, somebody that seems to really be feeling something like all of a sudden, I think what it does, it touches these things in ourselves.

47:18It has that same effect that Dwayne went through, articulated to you about these moments that were kind of burned into his memory. Then really the best movies are kind of almost blank screens that we project our own fucking like, oh yeah, my father died, or I went through this with my kid, or I'm fucking, I feel fucking alone and miserable, and here's this hopeful moment that someone has to go, maybe I can do something. You know, they inspire you, they touch you, they move you, and it's the thing to go for. The other thing is, you know, is to tell a lighter story, to go through the more typical sort of tropes of it all.

47:57Either way, you're in somebody else's perspective for a few hours, and hopefully it breeds compassion. Well, when it's done right, there's a magic to it where you forget that it's happening, and you're there. And the most amazing trick is when it's done by famous people. You know, I was talking to Ethan Hawke about this. is that there's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon in that movie with Julia Roberts about the end of the world. I forget the name of it. Right, right, right. Tomorrow. Yeah, yeah. Tomorrow something. People will find it. But it's a great fucking movie. But there's this scene where he's trying to get, he's talking to Kevin Bacon.

48:29Kevin Bacon's got a gun to him. And it's so, fuck, I know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hawke. It doesn't matter. Like, you're fucking locked in. You're locked in. You're like, oh, shit. Like, that's the magic. And he was like, but I'm locked in too. It's like a hypnosis. It's like everybody is in the scene in a very bizarre way. You have the lines, but you're living it. And that's either done or it's not done. And when it's not done, you could tell someone's kind of just performative. You feel it when you're watching. Yes. If it does that thing and it pulls you in, then it's happening.

49:09That's the magic of film. And sometimes you trick people, I guess, but for the most part... For the most part, you don't. If you're feeling it and it's really happening, it's much more like... Other human beings recognize human beings experiencing real shit. Yes. It's like these mirror neurons. I know what sorrow looks like without having to fucking... I can't break it down for you. We all know kind of what like, oh, he's a little anxious right now. Or did I maybe offend him? All these little things. And when some like the rare moments, when these big feelings or the things happen, you feel it, too.

49:45You know, and you usually like an example is this old saying about like, you know, actors try to cry. People try not to cry. Like because when you're really experiencing that shit, you don't want people to see it. You want to hide it. You want to know I'm OK. I'm fine. You know, it's like I want to pull the sheet up. Yeah. But the other thing that's really interesting from from our side of doing it, because he and I have talked about this a lot is. and I've always said publicly, great actors are good enough for both of you. When you're in a scene with a great actor, that thing that Ethan's talking about, that hypnosis or whatever you want to call it, that energy, that place where you go, right?

50:21They're bringing you right with it. It's like a fucking tractor beam. They will suck you right in with them as quickly as you look into their eyes and you're like, you're just there. And it's like riding the easiest wave you've ever ridden in your life. you know it can be the hardest thing in the world and it can be the easiest thing in the world when you're with a great actor it just it's just if the scenes yeah this is a real paradox like all the stuff that I'm the most proud of the weird thing about us has felt very easy at that time and the shit where you're banging your head against a wall trying to get blood from a stone and killing yourself and the whole thing and it just it ends up fucking feeling empty and the thing about the stuff that I'm proud of is my insecurity is like it should be harder than this right are we like we work hard enough are we getting you know Right, right, right.

51:05And learn to kind of just trust that. Go, it feels good. Let's just keep going, you know? Well, there's some scenes in this movie, without giving too much away, where there's conflict between you two guys. It seems so real. And that's even harder to recreate because you guys are good friends. And you're making the movie together. And you've got this scene where you're acting in this, and with the conflict with the two of you guys in the movie. But it's very fucking real. The reason that it was real, I like that scene. The reason it works, I think, is because he's coming at me and he really needs to know something and I'm completely blanking him.

51:40Like, I'm just, he's going, you've got to tell me what's going on, man. He's like, it's awesome. Like, what is the thing? And I'm just, like, literally kind of blanking him in this bizarre way, which, like, was really frustrating him in real life because that feeling of, like, it's fucking, tell me, dude. it's you and me like right and he finally goes he screams out i don't trust you right now that's a fucking problem right which is like what you would say to an old friend like what are you doing man like what what what are you doing like are you like the betrayal tell me the fucking the betrayal is that or tell me the truth lie lie to me or tell me the truth and like step outside our whole relationship and all of a sudden just act like give me this weird look i'm just like i don't you know like and so we were doing the scene it was really fucking pissing him off i could see him like getting the one line that wasn't written that i saw that i didn't remember doing was i would have never fucked you like this i know i would have never fucked you like this yeah which i didn't even remember saying the george i like that keep that thing i wouldn't have fucked you and i was i thought i was like what is he i thought what did i just you know and i still watched the playback it was one of those rare moments again it was like where it was that thing of you doing all the work by not doing anything, which I didn't expect that to be the choice that you made.

52:57And it just was confusing. And it felt like just leaving you out in the fucking cold, I didn't the only thing I could rely on. I was like, I wouldn't do this to you. So in those moments where you're ad-libbing a line, where a line comes, is it just that feels like that's what you say? It's just kind of like you couldn't stop from saying it. Right. But you have to be working with somebody that makes that okay. You know what I mean? Because the part of your brain that will govern you or tell you something's not okay, will step in if it's sort of like, listen, I expect you to fucking do this box.

53:32And there's directors and writers who really do really care about every word precisely. And that's how they do it. And that's fine. That could be great too. For me, I find it becomes more interesting. and sometimes better stuff happens if you actually feel like you don't have to say any of the lines. I don't have to say any of the lines in the scene. Then I'll tend to say the ones that feel right. But it's that fake thing that never happens in life, which is I'm never sitting here talking to you and think, what's my next line? What am I supposed to say and how should I say that? And it's not about the lines ever.

54:06It's not about the words. It's about what's the scene about, what's happening in the scene. It's one of the reasons why Curb Your Enthusiasm is so great. because Larry David just gives you a place to get to. Yeah. He gives him kind of a loose agenda of what's going to happen. And then films a bunch of stuff and everybody figures it out. Yeah. And a lot of times that show's about the awkward shit when people are missing each other or not sure of themselves and a little embarrassed. Fucking genius show. It really is. And people talk like we're talking. Like you occasionally talk over each other.

54:37There's a stumble. There's no one. Like what? What the fuck are you talking? There's weirdness. Because what's also happening is that forces you to really listen. And that is the hardest thing to kind of learn for young actors, I think, is it's really all about listening. And I did a bunch of movies with Paul Greengrass. And that's how he works, where you just know the agenda going in. You know some basic things. You know what your guy needs going in. And like I was playing a chief warrant officer and I had to go through a door and there was a guy and I needed to interrogate him. And this is what I needed to know from him.

55:13I needed to secure the house with my guys and I needed to get to this guy. We needed to make sure everybody here was secure. And he put me with a bunch of real combat veterans and we fucking went in and, you know, they're the experts. Which is another thing that does your job for you. It's just being around the real people. You're still putting the cops from Miami on these parts, and it just, like, by osmosis, you feel more legitimate. The thing feels more authentic to the audience. You don't know why, because you don't know what the fucking culture is of the tactical narcotics team in Miami. But when you see the real guys, you're like, yeah, that seems right.

55:50Miami is a perfect place to have it, too. Well, it's also specific to this, because it's based on this real tactical narcotics team in Miami. And the guy who ran that, this guy, Chris Cassiano, is Joe's friend, and he's the guy that my character is based on. So Chris was, Chris, we went, you know, we wrote along with Chris down there. We went with that team and watched them operate and then hung out with them. And then they came up and they were, you know, all in the movie. And Chris was around as a technical advisor the whole time. So any question, like, little details. All right, how do I go through this door?

56:24What do I do? What do you do here? What's the protocol here? All of that stuff was kind of overseen by him so that it was how they really do it. That whole fucking town is so— Did you ever see Cocaine Cowboys? Yes. Oh, shit. The entire fucking graduating class of the police academy one year either wound up murdered or in jail. That's what happens. All of a sudden you push so much fucking money into something. And it's like before they even kind of figured out, like, you know, There wasn't even a lot of stigma. It was like, ah, cocaine, whatever. It's kind of rich guys, fun, drug. But there's some statistic about the amount of money in the banks in Miami was the same as the rest of the country.

57:08More banks per capita in Miami than anywhere else in the country because they were just laundering money, and they got away with it. They literally got away with it. Have you ever flown over Bimini? No. So if you ever fly over Bimini, there are all these Cessnas, underwater all these planes like around the island because what they used to do, Bimini is like the closest, it's 50 miles off the coast of Florida. They would come in with a plane full of drugs and just crash the plane into the water. They would land it. On purpose? On purpose. Because there's no runway on Bimini. There's no, it's like, fuck it, we're going to dump the plane in the water.

57:46They would have 10 cigarette boats, like a flotilla of boats waiting. They would crash the plane. They'd offload the drugs as the plane was sinking. Right? And then they put it, they put it, the Coast Guard figures that they're always coming for them. That's why they have 10 boats. They throw the drugs into one of the boats and they got a one out of 10 chance of making it. They just scatter. And the Coast Guard goes after one of them and hopes they get the right one. And not just like, no, I was just taking a cruise tonight. What's the problem, officer? But the planes are still all submerged. Like you could, the water's so clear, you can see.

58:23How many fucking, oh, wow. Oh, there you go. that's crazy how many fucking planes are out there I flew over probably 20 years ago but I mean there's That was wild. I don't know how long. I mean, but if you think of probably the cost of one of those little Cessnas probably wasn't, I mean, with the amount of drugs they were moving on. Yeah, there you go. Fucking wild. That's great. They're kind of landing where it's sort of shallow. Yeah, they land and it's like five to ten feet of water. And what do they land at, whatever, 55 knots? So you just try to. Water looks nice, too. Like, yeah, sure. Wow.

58:58I mean, it won't be comfortable, but, I mean, Sully landed at 737 or whatever it was in the water. Yeah, fucking wild. what a crazy part of our culture that that happened yeah that the the whole cocaine run during the 80s in particular like miami vice all that shit like it's like it shaped the entire country for sure oh yeah i just remember that one guy in that documentary who was like i think he was from boston and he was like the pilot and he had figured out the route and he was like man like we could have gotten away with this forever he was like somebody talked and he knew that's the only way we would have been caught he was like i had it all he was clearly really smart the guys did too you know i mean there's a whole lot of people out there that were like yeah we had a nice run yeah that's why i got eight houses you know it's like oh yeah that's one of the real crimes that people got away with was bringing cocaine into this country there's a lot of people that got very wealthy including banks which is just really crazy banks with the jewelry companies There was more Jaguar dealerships in Miami than ever in the country.

1:00:03He was like, doesn't pay to ask questions. So, yep, I guess a lot of people like our cars here. You don't say all cash. Sure. We can make you a deal. Sure. How many backyards in Miami still to this day have bags just buried somewhere that nobody knows about? It's probably worth just checking. When you buy a house in Miami, just dig the yard up. Well, at least find out who owned it before you. Oh, he's a pilot. Get a truck. Get a tractor. It's time to dig up the backyard. I mean, one of those guys in the films had millions of dollars just buried in his backyard. They had nowhere to put it. They were making so much money.

1:00:35They just had to bury it places. That's fucking crazy. Well, it's why it's the perfect backdrop for the film. You know, because, you know, that the situation that the cops without giving away too much of the plot, but the situation that the cops are dealing with is a very real situation. I mean, so many DEA agents turn dirty. So many cops turn dirty. It's because it just can get confronted. Yes. Like, you take these people, you know, you got, like, six, seven people. They fucking work for a living. They have the same bullshit they have to deal with. And there's$20 million, you know? And, I mean, it makes for a great, like, drama, too, even, like, you know, with the performances.

1:01:11Because all of a sudden, somebody's thinking, like, okay, how are they going to react? You know, who's going to be the first person to say, you know, I'm going to have to turn this all in, you know? And, like, getting to play that shit. And for me, also, I like, you know, without being, you know, sanctimonious or preachy. because I really think movies, we're talking about like what they do well, what they do very poorly is deliver messages or lecture. As soon as you get into that thing, the audience is like, I'm going to go to church for that or fucking school. I don't need that shit here. But I like that what was underneath it is like, this is a fucking hard job.

1:01:45And that there's a lot of value. Like these characters, the ones that are trying to do their job are trying to get through the day. And just at the end of the day, have done their job. like they said they were gonna do, adhere to the fucking ethics that they're supposed to, and at the end of the day be able to sleep at night and believe there's some value in not fucking stealing the money or flipping somebody over, you know what I mean? And doing all that shit. And that's the win. The win doesn't have to be get away with the bag of money or fucking saves the world from the evil scientist laser beam or whatever.

1:02:17It's like, at the end of the day, if you can fucking live with yourself and say, look, I acquitted myself according to what the fucking expectations were what am I true to my word and I I think there's so like that's a I don't know that that affected me I I found that kind of moving and and you can't do it if you create like if it is to credit to Joe's script like just two-dimensional characters oh I'm the hero I'm the villain or this person would never do that they don't have to be real people like you would be subject to like temptation money just represents whatever that thing is you think you want or that's going to make your life better you're you know it's something different to everybody but you know and especially when and you're facing the custody thing, or the sick relative, or whatever it is, that's a real thing.

1:03:00Nobody's immune to that kind of temptation. Sometimes I think it's cavalier to be like, oh well you're dirty, putting people in a very tough situation a lot of times, particularly if they're feeling undervalued. Like the woman in the scene where Catalina's like, I get fucking pissed, I get yelled at, I get shit on, you know what I mean? Like I'm out here grinding every fucking day. you know it's a it's a lot it's a lot to ask I think it's it's worth kind of making that you know heroic without sort of indicating too much no it's really well written because there's no suspension of disbelief moments it's a it's a and that's hard to do in a big blockbuster action movie there's always one movie yeah moment in a movie we're like what come on how do you do that you guys don't have any of those there's none of that and I loved it I loved it I loved that that aspect of it too where it felt like all of it was like i believed it i believed it and that's really a credit to joe and his like taste and that's why we really thought like this guy knew how to make narc he kind of obviously understood this world and understood that it has to above all it has to feel real and that's why he was open to like okay whatever happens you throw in a line maybe it's good can't get your feeling hurt if it's not you know but like you got to be able to take that shot and we're all down, you know, trying to spend time with people.

1:04:18I mean, I kind of feel for these cops, a bunch of actors to send on you and they're like, what kind of sweatshirt is that? You know? It was like that Michael J. Fox, James Woods movie. Remember that movie? I forget what it was called, but he's, Michael J. Fox is an actor following around James Woods. He's studying him for a character and James Woods is a real, like, detective and he's just like, get this guy away from me. I kept thinking of that. Kind of hair gel you use. Yeah, exactly. Like, all these questions, you know. But they were very tolerant of us, which was nice and really, really helpful.

1:04:50Because it's always details. It's always details. It's like how fastidiously do you kind of mine for those details? Because I've always been convinced that like an audience, it's like you were saying, they don't analyze why they don't believe something. They feel it. They just don't believe it. And it's usually because those details are, you don't get those. And that's the only thing, like, I'm not great at imagining something. Let's invent this. Everything that I've done, like, that I like has been a result of something I found in research. Like, for the town, I went down and just went through the, you know, all the prisons, you know, out there in Massachusetts, federal prisons, state prisons, and sat down and talked to guys who robbed trucks and banks.

1:05:33And, you know, kind of sometimes, you know, you want to know. And then sat down with the FBI guys and was like, what are they like? And the great shit, you know, for me is that, you know, and I'm in like, I'm in like Wet Walpole or I'm in the prison of Dedham or whatever. And I'm to some guy said, like, after talking for two hours, you know, I was like, is anything just fucking weird ever happened or fucked up? Anything you remember? I was like, yeah, one time, you know, we were coming out of this thing. We robbed this truck and, you know, we had the mask. We got the switch car. We drove around the corner and whatever.

1:06:04We pull up. We get out fucking guns, the mask, the whole thing. and we look over and it's this cop sitting there doing construction duty and i was like right then he tell me a story i was like oh shit i was like what happened he goes no he looked at us we looked at him he looked the other way whoa and i was like really he goes yeah he didn't want to end up on the wall at the vfw it was these guys with full automatic weapons masks on switching cars i was I'm putting that in the movie. And it's a great moment in the town, like in the movie, because they all jump out of the things. Yeah, I remember that scene.

1:06:40And then, oh, yeah, here it is. Exactly. It's great, and it's this awkward, they just stop. And this dude, he sees him. They see him. He's like, fuck, we're going to have to kill this guy.

1:06:58Nope. He turns away. Okay. Wow. it's such a great but that's straight from research which i always loved that story um and then he and then the line is here that he put it here and one on and up at the wall of vfw yeah it was a great you know it's a great line it was such a simple explanation for what why do you think what do you think he did you know and why like and that's exactly what it would have been like that guy next day's picture would have been up in the wall at the vfw yeah you know and he knew it and everybody knew it he said he didn't want to do it like that you know that was and like that kind of stuff is uh i don't know it's very human human calculations and interactments and a very extreme version of it but it also doesn't have sometimes it's not dramatic at all you know it's like yeah that was an easy decision and the guy never says anything i didn't say anything you know and kind of can't really blame him you know yeah the town was a great fucking movie too, man.

1:07:54And I knew a lot of people like that. You know, from boxing gyms and stuff. I knew a guy who was a hitman for Whitey Bulger. I knew a guy who was a friend of a brother of mine who went to jail for that, for murder, for killing people. What town did you grow up in? I lived in Newton. You did? Yeah, I grew up in Jamaica Plain for a little while. I lived in Newton, but I spent a lot of time in Boston because I was fighting. I was mostly training, and so I was around a lot of these very shady characters. who were in the fighting world, and a lot of them had backgrounds in crime. One of the guys that I trained with, he went to jail for a little while, and then he got arrested because a guy got killed, and they broke every bone in his body with a hammer and kept injecting it with cocaine to keep him awake while they were doing it, and then they cut his hands off and cut his head off.

1:08:47And this guy that I used to train with got arrested for that. Jesus. Yeah, he didn't wind up going to jail for that. He's dead now, but he was somehow or another at least peripherally involved. Yeah, well, I didn't do any fighting, but I went around and found a lot. One of the things about being an actor is people will talk to you, which is a fucking amazing gift. Even if somebody's like, oh, yeah, I killed guys. They'll just come out and it's kind of the rules all of a sudden don't apply. These guys in prison, what the fuck are they going to talk? You know what I mean? But they're interested in it for whatever.

1:09:21And, you know, so you avail yourself of that. And then I had, like, you know, we had people around that movie who everybody knew. Yeah, he did that job. He never got arrested. And so, like, yeah, people, you know, meet people, you know, and talk to them. And it's interesting because it's such a good lesson for doing this job, which is that they're never how you think they're supposed to be, like the murderer person. Right. You know, there's always something a little – I remember one guy was supposed to be like this really violent kind of loose cannon fucking guy who supposedly had done all this shit, stabbed and killed two people, Faneuil Hall, and shot these guys in a robbery.

1:09:59And he like shows up with his polo shirt kind of tucked in, you know. He's like, how's it going? You know, just like I never would have fucking put this guy on fucking killing four people. You know what I mean? Yeah, have a good time. So I love that one movie and you're just thinking, fuck, man. Like, this is why, and it's a really good lesson for like, you know, we tend to read a script and okay, this guy's the tough guy and he's going to be the, it's like you work with, like, I had the fucking, like the opportunity to train with these Delta guys. Like, you know, it's the most elite special forces combat fucking operators in the world.

1:10:31I mean, I suppose the SEALs will take exception to that, but just numerically, right? I think there's been less than 900 guys ever in the history of Delta. You meet them and they're not the biggest guys. They're not the toughest guys. They're not trying to fucking be hard. And, you know, they're the most relaxed, at ease. And, you know, I found myself just being like, finally, I was like, what, can I just ask you, what do you think makes somebody, like, qualify for the Delta Force? Like, what's a good Delta operator? It's like, ah, you know, problem solving. Problem solving? The guy goes, yeah, it's probably like your job.

1:11:03I was like, no, let me tell you something. It's really not like my job. I appreciate it. Very big fucking difference. He's like, oh, you solve problems again. No one's trying to kill me. See, that's the thing. But that was the closest insight I got to it, which was, I've always kind of thought this about guys like Brady or something. There's guys that just don't get tight and that they are kind of able to problem solve when the problem is like, well, that helicopter's crashed and we're 200 miles inside Afghanistan and we're outnumbered fucking six to one. How do you think we should get home? Like, just having your wits about you to make that calculation while, by the way, You're in a fucking gunfight and things, you know.

1:11:43I'm sure that does make, because those are the people where I'd be in a fucking panic and have no idea what to do. And you get, like, attracted to the person who's, like, seems to have a, like, hey, it's good. We're going to be okay. Everybody get your shit. We're going over here. You'll just follow that guy. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. But it's not always the most, maybe it's just because they're so confident. They're not, like, I don't need to prove that I can kick anybody's ass. I don't even get in fights. Like, I have a weapon. You know what I mean? It's just a, it surprises me how those kinds of like extraordinary experiences in people or extraordinary people don't always manifest themselves in how they show up.

1:12:24Right. We have caricatures in our head of what like these tough people are like. Well, you see that about MMA fighters. Like there's a lot of MMA fighters. You meet them. They're like the sweetest, nicest, friendliest people in the world. I remember going to one of the events in L.A. I think it was at Staples. And I was backstage and was talking to one of the lawyers for the UFC. We were talking about Conor McGregor, and he was telling me a great story about him. And this guy walks up, and he's in chinos, khaki pants, and a blue button-up business shirt with spectacles. And he's very small. and I kind of don't really regard him and I'm still hearing this story and then Patrick goes, Matt, do you know Henry?

1:13:10And I turn and it's Henry Cejudo and I'm like, this fucking guy could wreck me right now. Like absolutely fucking destroy me and he is the guy that some dummy would try to pick on. Yeah, right. You know what I mean? Exactly. Like he's not carrying himself. Like he just is the thing, you know? And find out a little bit too late. Yeah, don't find that one out late. Yeah. A lot of guys do, unfortunately. Yeah. Well, they don't have to prove themselves, right? They do it all the time. The same with Delta Force guys. Like this idea, this outwardly brash, tough guy, usually that kind of machismo, that's bullshit.

1:13:52You're using that because you're insecure. The secure people are very calm and genuinely very friendly. Really nice. Yeah. Yeah, that's been my experience. Yeah, it's crazy, right? He was kind of beautiful, too. You know, I've kind of like, what a great guy. And you feel like, that's nice of you to be so sweet to me because obviously you don't have to be. Right, right. I'll just give you my watch if you want to. Yeah. No, it is a fascinating thing. It's like we have these ideas in our head, these caricatures, you know, of what a tough man is, what a good woman is, what a this is, what a that is.

1:14:24And I think one of the beautiful things about film when a film is really good is you see these complex characters and it sort of like reformulates in your mind like what a person actually is. Yeah, it's seeing all kinds of different people. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, I completely agree. I mean, look, the fundamental like challenge I think in life is like to find some humility, which means actually thinking you might be wrong about the shit that you're pretty sure about. and it means that like you kind of have to assume somebody else might have a point you know it's not like just writing everybody else off who disagrees you because fuck him he's stupid he's an asshole you know like those are things that actually take work to get to because the the first instinct because you just defend your idea or whatever it's easier is to just that it's a zero-sum yeah exactly yeah that that two competing ideas can't exist well that somebody can't be a good person And believe it.

1:15:20Right, right. Like, if you can decide, you can disagree, we don't believe, I don't know, what about this, what about that? But once you find yourself relying on, like, well, I need to, like, zero out this person's humanity in order to defend my idea, I think that's a pretty good indicator that, like, there's something wrong with the way you're thinking. Like, because it can't be that you're right about everything and everyone else is bad who disagrees with you. I think that was one of the most interesting things about The Sopranos is that the main character, the guy that you loved, was a fucking murderer.

1:15:50Yeah. He would murder his friends. He was a complete mobster and a thug. But you really loved him. You loved the shit out of that guy. It was so complicated. I'm rewatching it with my daughter right now. Jimmy was so good at doing the part that you found yourself being like, I don't know, he probably has to kill him now. Yeah. Probably got to kill him. That's also a great actor. Like there's a very famous story about Marlon Brando when he did Streetcar Named Desire. And Tennessee Williams, who wrote it, like freaked out because he was making Stanley Kowalski. He was making people empathize with Stanley Kowalski.

1:16:27And Tennessee Williams was like, but I wrote him as a brute. He was like a two-dimensional brute who just came and beat up his wife and was supposed to be this kind of dark looming force over the play. But Brando was like, no, he's a human being, and I'm going to play him like a fucking human being. And it changed the play. But Williams, in all of his writings... That so much more reflects life in the real world. Yeah, exactly. Everybody's the hero of their story. Everyone has the reasons for why they're doing it. And people don't set out to be like, I'm just going to hurt someone or dominate the world.

1:16:58You think, well, I've got to protect what I have. It's like, you know, I'm not bringing it back to this movie, but it's like what I liked about Rip was, it was kind of the slippery slope. You know, the first time you take a little money, and then well you know i gotta cover i don't want to go to jail i mean my reason why i did that but now i've told a lie now i gotta cover that thing and now you have guys who both live by this code that's very hey you protect the people who are with you and you got to have this fucking and so now it's to be a very similar like by that kind of slippery slope of ultimately find themselves you know well they kill one another uh because and it's really not i don't i don't believe in that one choice turn it's like more how do you find yourself you dig yourself in a fucking hole because you're just covering up the last, trying to fix the last problem that's arisen, you know?

1:17:42And everybody thinks, of course, the roots for themselves is like empathize with themselves. That's what we have to be concerned with, ourselves, our needs, our families, our basic shit. It's hard to expect people to go like, all right, and what about, you know, like what they think? And I think that's, I think it's a much more honest evaluation of people and it allows for like complexity and forgiveness and fucking all the shit that's sort of beautiful about people. Like rather than this notion of like, well, we're going to be binary, good or bad, perfect or not, whatever. And any infraction, then it's like permanently stains you.

1:18:19Right. Right. That's like what we were talking about earlier about people that have been canceled. You know, that this idea that one thing you said or one thing you did, and now we're going to exaggerate that to the fullest extent and cast you out of civilization for life. In perpetuity. Yeah. It's fucking crazy. Yeah. Because I bet some of those people would have preferred to go to jail for 18 months or whatever and then come out and say, no, but I paid my debt. Like we're done. Can we be done? The thing about that getting kind of excoriated publicly like that, it just never ends. and it's the first thing that, you know, it just will follow you to the grave, I think.

1:19:06It's also this problem that people have with people that are in the public eye. They have this, like, desire to chop them down always. You know, and anybody that stumbles in the public eye, they want to destroy their life. And they want to just pile on. And you're not there with them. You don't feel the empathy. You're not talking to them. They're not a human being. It's just text on a screen. Right. It's just like kind of, like I was saying, like that kind of sixth grade instinct to be like, Like, oh, he's in trouble. You know, there's this human, like, we have dark fucked up instincts too sometimes to, like, isolate people or get joy out of someone else.

1:19:40They're in trouble. Maybe because part of it's saying, hey, it's not me. You know, so if you can point the finger, everyone's looking over there. We feel safer, you know. Right. But it's like, yeah, and to take any forgiveness out of it, you know, is a really fucked up thing. Because then it makes it impossible, A, to actually go, all right, yeah, I did that. Fuck shit. that was wrong, I get it, you know, because it doesn't matter. Once you've said you've done it, you become like an outcast, and I don't think anybody wants to think, you know, like the sum total of who you are is your worst moment.

1:20:11You know, it's sort of like, you know, I think you want to be judged just as well, are you capable of doing something good or something beautiful? It's not to say to forget, you know, there's people that just over and over and over, and they're doing horrible shit, don't care, I get it, no one's trying to like absolve that, but you remove the ability to sort of forgive people, or look at them in a complicated way. Or else it's kind of become those things that's like, let's get one of ours or one of them, the instinct to get team, tribal-oriented, and it just becomes a sport. Yeah, yeah. It's also like, who wants to live in a world with no forgiveness and redemption?

1:20:44That's crazy. That's just denying the very nature of human beings and that people do things that they regret, and then they become better people because of it. Some of the people I would rely on the most, like trust my kids with the most have done shit that they that they really regret and you know what's yeah objectively wrong and other people have been like i shit i did that i fucking whether it's like addiction i got myself down this fucking right did this i did this they're able to go i did it i'm sorry it's real i shouldn't have done it it was wrong that actually that those people can become someone that's very trustworthy yeah because you're like this motherfucker will say if they've done something they'll actually look at their own behavior they'll acknowledge it And then you feel good and you feel much versus someone who tells you, like, I always get it right.

1:21:32Everything's perfect. Well, it's about evolution, right, and in our own personal evolution. And we're all on our own path towards that. Like, the idea of attacking someone is like, oh, so you ace the test? Like, put your pencil down? Like, you nailed being human? You're done. If you did nail being human, that's not possible because you forgot about the part about forgiveness You haven't nailed it by definition if you're out there throwing stones It's most of the people that I find, especially when there's someone that's publicly in trouble for something Most of the people that I know that have attacked people have a lot of questionable shit in their past And it's almost like they're trying to hide that by going on the attack That's the thing, like if I can point my finger, it's like no one's gonna be Oh, he's a good guy, Ben's a good guy, he's calling them out Yeah, exactly.

1:22:20Meanwhile, you know. And if you like, yeah. It's like you were telling me to see Wake Up Dead Man, the third Knives Out movie. Oh, it's great. And I watched it. I really liked it. I thought it was a really interesting, like, you know, I'm not a religious guy. I don't like that. And yeah, I'm aware of all the like, okay, you know, there's the religion, then there's people who are supposed to be rational. I thought it was a really beautiful movie about like, what's the role of grace in life? Right. Yeah. And the really honest examination of that, like sitting side by side with, yeah, okay, you don't believe it, but like, and it's not about whether you're gonna argue over fucking evolution.

1:22:59It's about how graceful are you in your life? How much fucking dignity can you afford other people? And are you willing to recognize and see that there's maybe something bigger than yourself and that there's a reason to try to sort of be, to find that grace, to get better. I thought it was really beautiful and kind of rare and really surprised. I was really surprised, too. I kind of put it on and not thinking I liked it. I still was going to be in Murder Mystery. Yeah, I loved it. Yeah, I loved it, too. I think it's one of the best of the three. Yeah, it was my favorite of the three. Those are great.

1:23:33Daniel Craig is great in that role. He's fantastic. God goes from James Bond to that and so many other things as well. It was Josh O 'Connor who played the priest. because I first saw him on The Crown. The Crown, yeah. I liked him a lot. Man, what an actor he is. Really, really good. How much film do you guys consume? Do you spend a lot of time watching films? Do you consider it? It depends. There's a lot. If we're watching cuts after cuts and going to the editing room, there's a lot of work around all the stuff that we have going that eats into a lot of time. Mostly just trying to keep up with what people are doing.

1:24:11and my issue is really that like we've kind of developed this pattern where all these sort of movies that come out are more interesting and very like they're all jammed out at the last fucking month of the year and so all of a sudden you're trying to race you got homework yeah right i got really lucky like uh recently my son you know 13 society he wants to like watch movies you know and i like give him shit like what are you fucking we always look at tiktok and shit like let's watch a movie and you know he's kind of blowing me off and rolling his eyes and you're Like, you know, I mean, if you're a dad, you're kind of an asshole fundamentally.

1:24:42Like, come on, you don't know what's going on. You know what I mean? Like, he told me one time, he was like, Dad, I said, look, let's watch this movie. I played him the trailer. It was, I can't remember what the movie was. It was a good movie, and the trailer was good. He just looks at it and goes, you know what you guys ought to do? You guys ought to work with some of the TikTok editors. It's just like, wow. I went and told the editors. I told Billy and Chris that time. I was like, guys, I got news for you. but now he's like alright let's watch like what are some movies I should watch you got Letterboxd you got into that thing you know it's like so I said okay what are the great movies I'll give you a list I start giving him a list they started watching them and so I mean this is like heaven for me so it's like okay what are you watching King of Comedy like last week I watched Baxi Driver King of Comedy all these Scorsese movies and it really was like oh man because in my mind I'm like sure I've seen that movie I know I watched them again it was like seeing it I realized how much better they were than I even could appreciate when I watched it when I was younger.

1:25:41And it really, and it was just the most beautiful fucking experience for me to watch my son, like taking an interest in it. The older two have always been a little bit like, yeah, dad, no, great. But hey, you guys want to come to the premiere? No, not really. You guys want to come to the set? No, I'm good. Well, it's just too much familiarity, you know? You grow up with a dad who's a movie star, just like, eh. The kid's got to, and I get it. You got to be your own person, do your thing. They have all their own shit. And I get, you know, I never even, so I never expected it from my son. And I don't know that he's going to, you know, and I wouldn't want to lean on him.

1:26:13Like, hey, get into the family business. Most of the time, it's just like, you know, we go to like basketball games, baseball, all that type of stuff. But this was a really, that was like, I was like so joyful. You know what I mean? I sit there and watch movies with my kid. I was like, this doesn't get better. This is the happiest I may ever be in my whole life. you know right here watch this movie and he's like well he's telling me what he thinks you know it's just like like honestly the rest of it you can fucking keep it that's awesome that's the best well it's great that you guys still love film you know that's it hasn't become just a job it hasn't become a thing that you do that you really enjoy it and love it yeah it was never a job i mean it really like we was it was like the an absolute dream from the time we were kids we did fucking high school theater together you know like that's crazy um it was like we're lucky to get it and lucky to the whole idea that you could even the goal is like to make a living that not have to be like well i'm an actor you know slash a waiter contractor dental assistant whatever the fuck it is you know like actually i can earn money i can and we always figured like i don't need that much especially if we don't have kids yeah you know okay we can make a living or it's you know maybe it's fucking gonna be dinner theater or maybe it's gonna be right maybe it's gonna be there'll be a job somewhere that we can find where we can do this and keep doing it yeah well there's something that i mean i love when people love things i i spend time on youtube watching people like uh fix watches you know like i don't know why but i i love when people make furniture i love i love watching people do things that they really love that they're invested in i think we all have that thing in us where we see someone who's got a passion for something someone who really loves it And that's what everybody really wants in life, to be lost in the thing you love, to have a purpose.

1:28:01Yeah. And it's beautiful. I agree. Watching someone else with true purpose. Yeah. Very. It's hypnotic. It reminds me of Joe versus the Volcano. He goes in to buy luggage. He's like, do you like luggage, sir? And he's like, luggage is the central preoccupation of my life. Guy's a luggage salesman and he fucking loves bags. He loves nothing more than luggage. And it's the greatest scene. I asked Tom Hanks about that when I did Saving Private Ryan. And I was like, can you tell me about that scene? Because we love this scene so much. And he named the actor. He was a Broadway actor, I guess, the guy.

1:28:31He came in. He worked for like one day in this scene. And he's so good in that movie. And then at the very end, he's showing him all the luggage. And Tom Hanks has unlimited money to spend. He thinks he's dying. And so he basically goes like, well, what's the best luggage? And he goes, well, if I had the means, sir. And he opens up this thing. And there's this trunk. And it's like this music plays. And he opens it. And Tom Hanks is like, I'll take two of them. And he goes, may you live to be a thousand years old. This is the greatest day of his life. Oh, my God. That's amazing. You guys have been in some fucking bangers, man.

1:29:08Saving Private Ryan, that opening film, The Storming of the Beach. Unbelievable. That might be the most realistic depiction of war that's ever been made. So I remember reading the script, and there was all this dialogue, all this stuff that was written. And I came late because I'm only in the, he shot it chronologically, and I'm only in the last act of the movie basically. And he told me on set, I was saying, I go, how did it go the beginning? There was all that dialogue with them on the boat coming in. And Stephen goes, he just goes, I cut all of that out. He goes, no talking for the first 27 minutes of this movie.

1:29:46Whoa. And that was when I was like, oh my God, this movie is going to be fucking unbelievable. I think Tom says like I'll see you on the beach or something he's screaming you know guys are puking look at the man next to you yeah remember that was the script right remember that it was it was look at the man next to you he won't live yeah he's gonna die two out of three of you are gonna die so look at to your left look to your right and feel bad for those two sons of bitches because they're not gonna make it you know it was stuff like that and Steve was just like nope no no these guys are puking.

1:30:17It's like the thing's up. You just hear you know and it's just like and then just boom and you're into it. Also they did this incredible like cinema changing open the shutter all the way. Skip the bleach process in developing the film. And I don't know if they're going to 22 or 23 frames anywhere in there maybe but I just remember maybe it's just the open shutters just but it just means that instead of like the motion blur is what makes something that like moves across the frame quickly if you look at each frame it's like a blurred thing and when you roll those 24 frames it gives you this the illusion that it moves across fluidly and if you basically open the shutter up so you get much more light each frame takes a super sharp picture and when you run those together like the piece of dust and so the mortar explosions are going and you get that feeling that you're adrenalized and you're seeing you know what i I mean, and it's just, and nobody had ever done it.

1:31:14It's just a master of the thing. He understood how to use the tools and combined with a great idea, and that's just masterful. Like, that's just how you do it. There's nobody who directs movies who doesn't go, ah, it's Spielberg. That's how you do it. It's just like you say, one of those things, a guy that's passionate and also caring about something with that much passion is kind of connected to greatness. And it's, I think, why we love to see that. Whether, you know, sports, fucking fighting, or whatever it is, there's something that makes you kind of love being alive and also love that person when you go fuck, like when you see Michael Jordan.

1:31:54There was that whole movie that we did airs really all about like what does it mean to be great? And how does it like touch everybody and change everybody and make people want to fucking improve their own lives? because somebody's just better at that thing than anybody else in the world. It's transfixing. I find that really fascinating. People who are great at something and the mystery of like, well, what is that like and what does that do to your life and how did you get that way and what does it take? And what's the cost? Because to truly be great at something, you have to kind of almost abandon everything.

1:32:31I've seen that in various ways. like in that kind of just empirical personal study, I haven't seen anybody who I think like qualifies for that, who didn't also seem to be really suffering. A hundred percent. You know, and you're like, damn, you should be so happy. You're the greatest. And the, you know, interviewers always go, how do you feel right now? And there's that sense that like, either it's never finished or it's never enough or they can't enjoy it or they're carrying. It's a line we put in air where it's like, and you have to be that. You have to be that thing. You know, like it's a kind of a burden too, in a way.

1:33:02100%. And I just see that. And that's why we want these heroes and people who are great to, I don't know, you know, flourish, have their life and have it all in hand. There's all this tragedy and all this stuff that happens, too. And it's, yeah, that's like you said, there seems to be a real cost. Well, there's always a massive cost in personal relationships because there's no way you have the time for other things. And the obsession that you have to be the best at something, you have to abandon almost all your concern for everything else. You have to have this single-minded focus. And that comes with a cost for the rest of your life because you damage relationships.

1:33:37You feel like a piece of shit. And you see that up close and, like, that's not admirable. Right. You don't give a fuck about anybody else? No, I do. I just care about this more. You know, it's like, so imagine that. You're making the sacrifices and it's causing injury to people and you know it and you don't want to hurt them, but you can't help it. And you're getting rewarded for it. You know, it's complicated. It's crazy because you inspire all these people that don't know you and you ruin all your relationships. Right, right, right. Maybe that's why I say don't meet your heroes. Yeah, exactly.

1:34:07There's something to it, man. There really is. But it's just we all grow from it. There's a fuel to watching greatness. There's a thing that hits you and lights you up where you want to do more, you want to be better, you want to whatever it is that you can do, whatever it is you do do, you become more, whether it's a great game, a winning touchdown, whether it's a great film, a great song. Yeah, it lights you up. And it's the fuel that we all live off of that we consume to make our culture move forward. And there's like a sacrificial element to it, the people that do it, and we all feed off of it.

1:34:45And it feels like, well, that's the person that doesn't get enough out of it. Right, right. But in great filming, how many lives have been changed by decisions made after great films? Like when I was a kid, I think I was like seven or eight or something when Rocky came out. And I saw it and immediately ran around the block. I've never won in my life. I was eating raw eggs. I'm like, this is going to change my life. There's things that happen when you see something truly great that it makes you want to be better as a human being. I remember where I was when I saw Denzel Washington play Malcolm X.

1:35:21Went to the movie, watched that movie. I remember leaving. I was 19 or something. I'm thinking, I want to be a better man. I thought that in my mind, you know, because of what I had seen this actor do and this performance. And the way, you know, that was the only real conscious thought I had. But I remember having it and kind of being surprised by it, you know. And it does. That shit can, you know, it's really touched me, you know, a lot of fucking people's work. And that's why you get that, like, you know, you see people and you want to let them know, you know what I mean? And tell them. and I always think people come to me, oh, hey, I love that movie.

1:35:56I always feel like, ah, you don't have to say that. You know what I mean? Right, right, right. It makes me kind of uncomfortable and I don't ever put myself in with those figures who I think are like, oh, but there's these towering giants who have done this, you know. I don't know.

1:36:14I finally kind of arrived to a place where it was like, it was uncomfortable. Oh, I saw Gobble Hunting. It made me want to go out to Hollywood and write a script and I think, oh, shit, I don't know. You know what I mean? You all right, man? At a certain point, I figure, okay, you know what? Whatever it is, great. Well, it's the cost of your fame. There's going to be a bunch of people that are going to come up to you and they want to say those things to you. And wanting them to say those things to you is the opposite of the mindset that you need to make those things. Right, exactly. It's so counterintuitive.

1:36:49You think like once you become really successful and you make a bunch of great things, it's going to be awesome having all these people come up to you. Like, no, no, no. I'm doing something else right now. And I can't be all wrapped up in the fact that I'm changing your fucking life. And also I can't be satisfied or take any fucking joy in that because I don't think I'm good enough yet. I need to fucking, you know what I mean? Right. Never satisfy. Yeah. You can't. And that's the darkness of trying to do something great. You'll never be satisfied. You see it in a lot of the fighters, the same kind of thing, the great, great fighters.

1:37:17Well, also, fighters have a very small window of greatness. There's only like a certain amount of years where you can burn the RPMs at the red line. And then eventually the knees go, the back goes. Is it earlier than other sports? It must be. Yes. I think so. Because like Tom Brady is still elite. I bet he could probably play football right now. I bet he, you know, how old is Tom now? He's probably 47 or 48 now, probably. I bet he could still play. Yeah, I mean, but that's a, yeah. I mean, that's a very specific skill position. and the way he played it. Right, but running back, no. Right, right, right.

1:37:50Cornerback. The elite levels of MMA, especially with USADA testing and now drug-free sport testing, when they are making sure that people aren't on testosterone and growth hormone and all these different things, like you have nine years. You have nine years at peak performance. That's legitimate. How long has John Jones been going? John Jones is a freak of all freaks because John Jones beat Daniel Cormier when he was on Coke. That was one of the funny things he said in the press conference for the rematch. Daniel was talking shit. He goes, I beat you when I was on coke.

1:38:27I mean, he was getting arrested. He was partying. When he fought Gustafson, he beat Gustafson, and he didn't train at all. I talked to his trainer. He's like, he didn't even show up at the gym. He was fucking never there. He was never training. He could just show up and beat everybody's ass. I saw a thing on my Instagram feed of a fighter, and I don't know who it was, but he was a heavyweight. And he goes, I had the chance to spar with John Jones, to work with John Jones. And he goes, I knew about it months ahead of time. He goes, I got my nutrition. Everything was absolutely flawless. I got my sleep.

1:39:04Everything was on. He goes, I show up at the gym that morning. He goes, it's me and five other guys. He goes, he comes in. I think he went to sleep at 4 in the morning or something. He was out all night. And he goes, he ran through all six of us. That's my buddy Brendan Shaw. Is that who it was? Okay, yeah. It was the funniest story. And he goes, and then I just knew. There's levels. That's a level. But imagine being that elite and realizing there's another level. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Brendan was a top 10 heavyweight, and John wasn't even a heavyweight. John was a light heavyweight. It was a lower weight class, and he just beat everybody's ass.

1:39:39And he said, this is his warm-up.

1:39:44I mean he has a unique aptitude for MMA but also he had two brothers that were super athletes yeah I played for the Patriots and Arthur yeah and so these guys are super athletes and so they're beating the shit out of each other all the time so they're like constantly in competition with elite athletes from the time he was a child yeah so he was just so tuned into competition and he was so intelligent. Like his fight IQ was above and beyond everyone's. And he would study tape meticulously. Well, that spinning kick that he did to that. Stipe Miocic. Where he said he, and I think he thanked his Taekwondo coach, and he said he had been working on this one specific kick from both sides because of something he saw on the tape.

1:40:30And he got it off and hit this guy so hard. Not even on his liver side. He hit him on the other side, and you see it shudder through his entire, like, organ structure. Yeah, his heel was deep into his body cavity, like, all the way up to his fucking spine. But he just practiced this one specific, and he was like, and he even said, he goes, it is a devastating shot. Like, there's not a human being who could take that. No, it's like getting hit by a car. Yeah. Because when you do it. car in one spot. The size of a foot. 13 foot. He sets him up. Boom! It's just... It's like, yeah, now it's over. It's over.

1:41:15And this is John moving up to heavyweight because light heavyweight wasn't a challenge anymore. He decided to become a two-division champion. I mean, John was a freak. You see it rumbling through. And by the way, that was almost a little bit glancing because he caught him with a bent leg. It wasn't even fully extended, which, you know, was even more devastating. But John realized that as a heavyweight, he didn't have the power that he had at light heavyweight, and so he said the most powerful kick is a spinning back kick, so I'm just going to work on that kick over and over again because that's the one tool that I have that can knock a heavyweight out with one shot.

1:41:48Wow, okay. That's just intelligence. It's not just the physicals, but he's also like a genius. He's a genius. Well, he's also like, he's the most meticulous when it comes to game planning and study. He will not take a short-notice fight. Even a guy that he could fucking beat any day of the week. He could wake him up at 3 o 'clock in the morning. He could fuck that guy up. He will not take that fight unless he gets a full training camp to prepare for that fight. Well, it's just, you know, greatness. But John's troubled, you know. John's been arrested a bunch of times and DUIs and all kinds of crazy shit.

1:42:19He's, you know, he's a wild fella. And, you know, that pursuit of greatness, I'm sure, has cost him a lot of shit in his personal life. But, you know, when he knocks D-Pay out and then did the Trump dance in front of the whole world, for that moment, he's on top of the world, you know? But then, again, it's like the same thing. As soon as you get back, like, what's next? You know? There's another challenge. It doesn't matter how many people love you now. Like, it's not good enough. There's someone else looming. You got to beat this guy. That seems like a kind of an agonizing thing to both have the, like, complete compulsion to have to get to the next level, and the next level keeps fucking moving the goalposts.

1:43:00I'll never forget, I interviewed Matt Hughes after he lost to BJ Penn. He lost the welterweight title to BJ Penn, and I'm interviewing him inside the octagon. He said, I'm going to be honest with you, it was actually a relief. And he goes, the pressure of being the champion and having someone chasing you for so ever, and the whole world chasing you, he goes, I'm going to be honest. And I thought it was an incredibly brave moment for a guy to say that who is, you know, just this fucking amazing human being, this warrior, to say, I just got to be honest, it's a relief. Losing my title feels like a relief.

1:43:34And I was like, wow. That is so brave to be that honest in front of the way. Because everybody's like, you just got your ass kicked. It's like, this is a relief. You know, I took a burden off my back. I'll be back. I'm going to regroup. But I needed that. I needed to just step off the fucking top of the hill for a little while. Jesus Christ. You've got to be like a great, actually, relief to be able to say something like that. It's kind of a gift. Instead of feeling like you've got to hide or pretend it and go, yeah, I'm not in relief. It's like it was a lot to carry. Well, the thing about fighting is everything you try to hide gets exposed.

1:44:08You're exposed completely during camp because they're doing these round, well, they take like— Sorry if I was here? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smoke up. They're taking like, you know, five guys and they're rotating them in with you. So you're doing five rounds with fresh guys. So you got one guy who is fucking warmed up getting, you know, getting ready for you. And then you're fucking out of breath. They give you a 30 second break instead of a minute. And then they're throwing in these monsters. And, you know, you're exposed. You're getting beat in training. You're getting smothered in training. You're exhausted.

1:44:42You know, you're always reaching your limits because the only way to surpass those limits is to hit them. You got to hit them. And then they got to figure out where their limit is. that, okay, next week we're going to do one extra round. We're going to do this. We're going to do that. We're going to do more strength and conditioning. We're going to push you past wherever your capacity is right now. So you're always breaking. You're always at the point where you can do no more because it's the only way to – and you can only maintain that. Like the condition that they get in when they step into the octagon, it's not possible to maintain that.

1:45:11No, right, right, right. You can only get to – You have to aim at that one moment and – Yeah, you have to peak. And then if you fuck up and overtrain, which a lot of those guys do just because they're such savages, they never want to leave the gym. Then they don't peak right. And then they come in and they're exhausted. They didn't recover properly. And then in between rounds, they're too tired. And they can't go out for the next round. They're too beat up. That happens too. I imagine that level of exhaustion has to be just insane when you overtrain. Oh, God. In an actual championship. And you realize there's no, you can't bounce back.

1:45:43And this guy is fucking blasting your legs with kicks and hitting you with punches and you can't get out of the way anymore Do you think who was it was it could be who said that they should just do 25 minute this a lot of people said that that I mean, that's a What is this song is playing? What's going on? I have a song on there. Fucking technology. The Teske brothers playing in my pocket. That's hilarious. I'm sorry about that. Well, Hoist Gracie always said that like that was how he fought in the early days. They just straight 25 minutes. Because he was like, look, he goes, if we're on the ground, he goes, I don't want them to stand back up again and go in between rounds.

1:46:20And he goes, I need time to cook them. That's what he would say. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what jujitsu is all about. Jujitsu is all about staying one step ahead of you until you become exhausted. And, you know, and then they eventually finish you. Like a, like a, you're just fucking constricted. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's the real—but, you know, there's this balance of, like, making it interesting for people to watch. I've been a proponent of no stand-ups. Don't ever stand anybody up. When a guy takes you down, like, you get an advantage at the beginning of the round anyway because a striker gets to be standing up when you didn't earn it.

1:46:56So you should never get stood up in a fight. I don't care if the guy's doing nothing. If he's holding you down and you can't get up, that's how it should be. So it's more realistic, but it's the balance of it being a sport. People want to watch. Yeah, because when people grab someone and take them to the ground, nothing happens, people go, boo. You hear it in the audience, and then the referee gets a little motivated and he stands people up, and I'm always like, ah, don't stand him up. I never thought of it that way, that the beginning of the round starts to the advantage of the strategy. Always, always.

1:47:24You're in a position you didn't earn. You never got back up. I think they should put them right back to where they were at the end of the round because it's one fight. It's not five fights. So if you start it standing up at the beginning of each round, that's a new fight. Yeah, right. In a way. What you're pitching, how quickly would the UFC go out of business? Real quick. 30 seconds, they're on the ground, and then it's 24 and a half minutes. Dude, I'm a terrible businessman. I would give the fighters more money. I would fuck up the whole business model. I would get rid of the cage. I would have them all fight in a basketball court.

1:47:58Just put mats on the ground in a basketball court. I don't think you should have a cage. I think the cage gets in the way. It becomes a way to get back up because you press your back up against the cage. You can use it to stand back up again. And you're in the middle of the center of a mat. It's very difficult to get back up. And that's realistic. Right. You know, you're using a foreign object to help you perform. To help you. Yeah, right. Yeah. But, you know, there's the whole macho thing about people fighting in a cage. And it's like they lock you in there. Clink. Clink. Clink match. Yeah. Yeah.

1:48:27It's just. But, I mean, in terms of, like, inspirational performances and things that you— when you see, like, the human spirit elevated to the highest possible place, when two very skilled men or women are fighting in a cage where they prepared for this for three fucking months, and then, you know, the referee's like, are you ready? Are you ready? Let's go. And it's like that moment, like, is—it's not like anything else in all sports. I think that's the moment that people show up for. Yeah. Because they build the intensity. It's the same with the old Tyson fights or whatever. Oh, yeah. Now it's going to happen.

1:49:04Yeah. And you can't help but have that feeling. And yeah, some fights end up being disappointing, whatever. But that moment is always there. Well, Tyson was a crazy example of what we were talking about with greatness. Because you could dedicate your whole life. You could fucking get up in the morning at the right time. You could eat all the right foods. You could do all the right training. But then you see that fucking guy. and you're just going to smoke 13 seconds. There's nothing I can do. I have no chance. You know, by looking, he had just a look in his eye. It was one of the only fighters where you'd just see the other guy was scared.

1:49:37Usually, at least hold himself together where they come off like, oh, I don't know, this guy looks pretty tough. Guys would fight Tyson and just would start, and they'd feel that moment too. Oh, shit. They're letting this tiger out, and here he comes. And it was like. Well, we're old enough to remember when he was in his prime, and those fights were like executions. You didn't want to pay. I remember when he fought Alex Stewart. I swear, I mean, Jamie might be able to prove me wrong, but I'm pretty sure that they cut to Alex Stewart and they cut to his wife and she was crying. And this is when they're coming to the center of the ring.

1:50:10But by the way, for good reason, this man might kill my husband. Right. You know what I mean? We're certainly going to beat the fuck out of him. And she knows it and the world knows it. And the guys were ready to quit. Remember that dude, Hurricane or whatever? White kid who fought him. Pete McNeely? His guy couldn't wait to throw the towel in. He had it ready. You know what I mean? He'd go, all right, that's it. The bell rings. He picks up the towel. You got one job. Save your guy's life. You know what I mean? McNeely's fucked up now, too, when you hear him talk. It's rough. It's rough to hear.

1:50:37Oh, really? Yeah, I saw him get interviewed recently. That's the dark side of the sport, of MMA and of fighting. It was a CTE. I had Johnny Knoxville on here yesterday, and Johnny Knoxville was knocked unconscious 16 times. Jesus Christ. Yeah, that's what I said. And I'm like, holy shit, man. and he seems normal. Like he doesn't seem like he's got brain damage. Now when you're talking to guys and you know they have brain damage, they're slurring their words and they're still fighting. Their words all mumble together. Like you have no idea how much they're struggling. And they're going to be struggling in a downhill slope for the rest of their life.

1:51:12It's not going to get better. It's going to get way worse because the real brain damage occurs like 10 years after the injuries. That's what it really sets in. Really? It just keeps atrophying? It just keeps getting worse. I mean, there's some therapies that they can do now. They do, and Knoxville did some of it, like this magnetic therapy that they do that re-stimulates neuron growth. And oddly enough, mushrooms, like psilocybin has been shown to regenerate. Mushrooms all of a sudden cure a whole bunch of shit. I know. Well, probably always has. Yeah, right, yeah. For sure. All of a sudden they're acknowledging it, yeah.

1:51:45Well, one of the things that's opening the doors for them to acknowledge it is soldiers. because it's always been kind of like a left wing thing to be into psychedelics. But all these soldiers are coming back with PTSD and drug addiction and a lot of CTE from, you know, bombs blowing up and IEDs and concussions. And the only thing that's helping them is psychedelics. So it's kind of like in Texas, former Governor Rick Perry has started the Ibogaine initiative. So they're using Ibogaine to help all these different soldiers, which is ironically the drug that Hunter S. Thompson claimed Ed Muskie was on when he was running for president.

1:52:21Oh, really? Yeah. Remember when he sank Ed Muskie's? What is Ibogaine? It's from the aboga tree. And it is a psychedelic that is in no way recreational. It is a very difficult experience. It's not fun for anybody. It's like a 24-hour trip. I haven't done it, but my friends that have done it say that it's basically like you see your entire life play out before you. You see where all your problems come from. You see where all of your emotional hitches are. Jesus. Yeah. And with addictions, it has an 80 percent, I think it's 84 percent with one treatment. They quit whatever they're hooked on. Not only that, it rewires the brain.

1:53:00So the physical pathways to addiction, like someone who's addicted to opiates, gone, completely severed. So you literally don't have a physical addiction to opiates anymore. So with one treatment, 80 plus percent of people. That's incredible. With two treatments, it's in the 90s. That's amazing. It's amazing. And it's been illegal since like 1970 in this country. The sweeping psychedelics. Rick Perry has like a clinic or whatever. Well, Rick Perry, because he's worked with soldiers and because he's worked with a lot of veterans that, you know, and he's a very compassionate and intelligent man.

1:53:31He realized like, OK, maybe I'm wrong about all this psychedelic stuff. And so he started getting behind this Ibogaine initiative. They passed it in Texas and now they're doing it with soldiers and they're going to do it with police officers. And I mean, police officers experience more PTSD. Like I have a good friend who was a cop in Austin and he said and he was also in the military. And he said, what I saw in the military was nothing compared to what I saw as a police officer. He goes, I was seeing death and violence on a daily basis. He goes, when you're deployed, he goes, yeah, you're going to see some horrible shit, but you're going to see some horrible shit mixed in over a course of time where you go out and things go live.

1:54:10He goes, like, every day. Every day you're going directly to somebody who's having the worst moment of their life. And every day you're pulling someone over and they might shoot you. Like you have no idea. You're pulling up to tinted windows. You don't know what the fuck is going on. You're running the plate. The license is expired. You have no idea who's in the car. You don't know anything. And you've seen all the videos. We've all seen videos of cops getting shot down, like when they're pulling over a car. We've all seen it. And so these guys are living with this fucking PTSD all the time. And then they have to live in real life.

1:54:41They're supposed to go home, and they're supposed to just be a normal dad and a normal neighbor. And their fucking head is just a hurricane of chaos. And Ibogaine has been very beneficial for those people to just sort of come down and try to find the root of all this stuff and get them off pills and get them on the straight. That's great. It's amazing. I don't know why we got into mushrooms. Well, Ibogaine, because during the presidential elections, he started spreading these rumors. and it's in the documentary. What is that documentary? Is it Fear and Loathing? Gonzo Gonzo that's right In that documentary, Gonzo, he talks about it.

1:55:24So he's getting interviewed by Dick Cavett. And he goes, yeah, there was a rumor running around that Ed Muskie was on Ibogaine. And I knew about it because I started that rumor.

1:55:38So the guy completely cracked. So this guy was like a frontrunner for the president. And he fucking completely cracked because everybody thought that he was on drugs. because Hunter S. Thompson was just running around saying there's these Brazilian witch doctors who are coming in to treat this guy. It's crazy shit. That's great. They were like, and Hunter would know. Yeah. But it's crazy that he chose Ibogaine too because Ibogaine is like, it's not a recreational drug and it's not a drug of addiction. It's literally a drug that stops addiction. No, but he was the guy that would have the full, the whole book's full of these fucking esoteric drugs you've never heard of.

1:56:15They mention in a really casual way. Of course, four of us stopped to get Ibogaine at the one gas station that sold it between needles and nothing. Yeah, sure. No, of course you did. But it does help people that have brain damage as well. It's supposed to cause some sort of neuroregeneration. There's stuff out there that can help people. But a large percentage of these fighters are silently suffering, and we don't ever hear about it. Don't they say it's supposed to be that the argument is because they're not using a glove, like that football is supposed to be... Wasn't that the sort of rationale that you were going to have less impact in boxing because the boxing gloves?

1:56:54No, but remember, it's like the sub-concussive blows. It's not necessarily the one-shot knocking you out as much as the repeated kind of small little bit of brain bleed. I'm sure they're all bad for you. You know what I mean? Like a version of getting your ass. To the head are not a good thing to be avoided. Well, it's also what you take in training, too. We're only considering what happens during a fight. If a guy has 40, 50 MMA fights, that's 40. How many rounds does he have right in the gym? Oh, training camp is fucking brutal. And depending upon how intelligent your camp is, like some people are really smart and they'll spar where they're not hitting each other hard.

1:57:33And then maybe one day of the week they go live, but you do it with trusted. You know, they're very close to you. These are people that you care about and love. So they're not going to try to hurt you on purpose. But sometimes not. Like sometimes you're in a hostile gym and, you know, you've got to spar with people you don't even know. They're from other countries. You have a big name. They're trying to take you out. You know, it's but the amount of damage these guys take. I mean, I don't know if football is better or worse. They're all the thing about football is the big impacts are way worse.

1:58:03Because when you've got a 300 pound super athlete. Yeah. That's fucking full tilt. All the way from across. Boom! A running start. Yeah. You're getting hit by a truck. And that, but that doesn't, it's not targeted necessarily at your head. So it's like, what is better and what is worse? You know, boxing's bad. You know, it's like, you have less options. MMA's slightly better because if, especially if you're a grappler, you can take guys down and you can beat them up on the ground. But it's ultimately, you're paying a price. A hell of a tough way to make a fucking living. Yeah. Sure. But for that glory, for that one moment when they win and the fucking 16 ,000 people are on their feet screaming, there's probably no drug like that that could ever reproduce it.

1:58:49And those guys chase that high for their entire life. And then after it's over, they feel oddly detached. Right. Nothing ever rises to that level again. Right. You can make films until you're 100 years old. You can make great films forever. You can do the thing that you love forever. They have a little window, a little window of greatness. That's the really tough thing about being an athlete. We were talking to Pete Sampras that time we met, Sampras, years ago. And he was like, we were probably, I don't know how, we were 30, he was 32, or something like that. And he was kind of, we were like, oh, my God.

1:59:20You know, he had all these fucking, you know, wins and grand slams, and he had to kind of vaguely, like, yeah, he was like, yeah, you guys look, I'm about to retire. I'm finished. And we were, you know, young guys. Just getting started, you know what I mean? Also, the thing is, you get better at your job the more you do it. And so it's that thing with the athlete. I was having this conversation the other day. It's like you have all the physical skills at the beginning, but you become better at your sport as your skills are declining. The body just doesn't want to do it anymore. You've got to just become Greg Maddox and compensate with all the tricks and location.

2:00:00And that's why that drama of the aging athlete is so powerful. Do we still have it in me? Can I still do it? Is what I've learned enough to compensate for what I've lost? Well, there's an interesting story about Vitor Belfort. So Vitor Belfort, he won the UFC heavyweight tournament when he was 19 years old. That was like the first event I ever worked at in 1997. I mean, he was like one of the all-time greats for sure. But as he was getting into his 30s, he was starting to decline. Then the UFC allowed fighters to use testosterone replacement therapy. And boy, did he fucking use it. I don't know what his levels were, but they were like superhuman levels.

2:00:44And there was a moment in time for a few years where they allowed him to use testosterone therapy. And people refer to it as the TRT Vitor years because he was fucking terrifying because he has the mind of a veteran. An incredible amount of experience, but now his body is moving like a 25-year-old. And so he was just annihilating people, just lighting people on fire. So they're not allowed to use testosterone? No, they can't use anything. No. How about peptides? Can they use peptides? Nope. Nope, not even peptides. They're trying to take that and reform that. But there's a lot of ignorance about peptides, what they actually do.

2:01:22I mean, all it's allowing you to do is soft tissue injuries, heal quicker and optimize. your body's ability to produce hormones. So instead of adding exogenous hormones, you're allowing your body to produce them more naturally, and it just makes you more healthy. For a very unhealthy job where you're getting hurt all the time, it's going to be better for the sport, better for the athletes to allow them to all use it. And it's also there's no long-term damage that's going to do like steroids where it shuts down your endocrine system. So I hope they reform it. But the idea was that there's so many fucking loopholes and so many people cheat.

2:01:57Big camps used to hire scientists. So they had a scientist on staff that was not only - What did he do? Yeah, exactly. Not only procuring stuff that would slip by the test, because there's like, you know, the Balco stuff, the clear. There's stuff probably right now that people are using that's slipping through. And there's a lot of experts that have, like, one of the things is animal-derived testosterone. So testosterone, they use a carbon isotope test, I think. I believe that's what they use to figure out where the testosterone came from. So if your testosterone is like at a very high level, they test all your other ratios.

2:02:37They go, well, no, it all seems likely. He's an outlier. He just has naturally high testosterone. But testosterone that you get from like synthetic testosterone is derived from a wild yam, believe it or not. Really? Yeah, it's not animal-derived testosterone. So the composite of it varies when they run the tests on it and they can determine. They can determine that it's yam-based testosterone. It's exogenous, not endogenous. It's the yam in there fighting. It's not him. But if they can figure out a way to – and there's a lot of proof of concept to this. Can they figure out a way to extract testosterone from animal sources?

2:03:10Just bull testosterone? Something like that. Well, the taurine. There's like a horse one. They used to inject Hitler with taurine. Hitler was like a fucking guinea pig for this one doctor who tried a bunch of shit on him. And one of the things they did was like inject him with bull testicles and stuff to try to keep him virile. Yeah. But there probably are athletes right now that are using some shit that they haven't figured out yet. So to give them any loopholes at all, they're like, no, no, no, fucking no loopholes. No IVs, no nothing. No IVs. No IVs. Like vitamins and – Right. But the problem with IVs is you can mask testosterone and mask steroids by over flooding the body with liquids.

2:03:49Oh, I see. So the ratio is hot because you add more water. Yes. You would just fill them up with saline, and then when they go to piss, like, nope, clean. Look at the ratio. Because it's like so much water is being processed through the body that it doesn't have time to show the testosterone. So there's a way to mask it, especially with things that you would add to the IV. so there's no you can it's only food and approved supplements through like really high level labs like thorn like thorn supplements where it's third party tested so they don't they can't do anything but for a while they let them do it and uh those trt vitor days are my favorite fights to watch did they stop doing it fighting because they thought it was like advantaging certain people or they should happen that they're like this is fucked up well they like look at the difference That's TRT Vitor on the left, and that's him on the right when they made him get off of it.

2:04:43Look at the difference. I mean, that's fucking stunning. On the left, though, dude, that motherfucker was terrifying. When Luke Rockhold fought him, he told me, he goes, dude, when I stood next to him at the fucking weigh-ins, he had muscles on his teeth. He goes, this fucking dude was so jacked. He was so scared. I was like, what the fuck is he on? Because he knew he was on something. It's just, it's cheating. It really is. Because you can jack your levels way above a normal human being. Because that's what a lot of guys. There was a few fighters that were pulled from cards. Because, like, say if a really high level is like 1 ,100, they were testing like 1 ,800, 1 ,900.

2:05:20They were like people that have never lived before. They were like a science project. You had different species. And they were insane confidence. Insane confidence. Because they were essentially like a raging gorilla. Yeah, right. They were just insanely confident. and it's just so fired up. They couldn't wait to smash somebody because they were just fucking maniacal. They were a berserker. So it's not a person anymore. Now you're a science project. There are rare outliers, like Tyson when he was in his prime, his rare physical specimens. That's part of the game, but that's God. That's nature.

2:05:55This is not Balco Labs. And so they won't allow him to do anything anymore. And that's why. And Vitor was one of the guys as it tested way over the line. And then they just decided - You guys are pushing it like, no. Yeah, right. But that's what they're gonna do. If you say, okay. If you say it's legal, they're just gonna take as much as possible. Some of it's good, more is better, and you know. Yeah, if you say, oh, you did one CC a week, they're like, I heard five, I heard five CCs. And these guys are just training five times a day, and they never get tired, and they recover like that. So, and they never have to worry about soft tissue injuries, because they heal like you're a fucking six-year-old.

2:06:27You know, you just, your body just like - You're like fucking Wolverine. Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. Well, that's the thing about peptides, too, the Wolverine stack. BP157 and TB500. I don't know if you ever get injured. If you ever get injured, get immediately on BP157 and TB500. I didn't hear about TB500. What's that one? Thymocin Beta 500. Oh, yes. In conjunction with BPC157, it is a fucking phenomenal stack. And it just really helps injuries. I didn't know they called it the Wolverine stack. That's what they call it, the Wolverine stack. For healing? Yeah. Because you fucking heal incredibly well.

2:06:58Like, quickly. I was talking to a pro football player. He pulled his hamstring. He's like, dude, I shot that shit right into my hamstring for two weeks, and I was right back on the field. Wow. I was like, that's nuts. Yeah. I go, what is a normal rehab? He goes, three months. He goes, in two weeks, I was back on the field. I go, what the fuck? He goes, I don't know how bad the injury was. He goes, but to me, it's like, fuck. I pulled my hamstring. I'm fucked now for X amount of days. He goes, and two weeks later, I was playing full tilt. Wow. I'm like, that's nuts. And going right into the area of the injury.

2:07:26Right into it. Some people think you don't have to do that. They think it's systemic, so you just stick it in your fat on your side. But he's like, no. And most athletes will tell you the best benefit is local. Shoot it locally into the area. And it just has this— Like cortisone or whatever. What is the— Yeah, cortisone. But cortisone just masks it. That numbs it or whatever, yeah. Not only that, it has a tendency, if you do it too many times, to weaken tendons. Yeah. Yeah, and so it could actually exacerbate the problem because it takes away the pain. It's like an emergency measure. Right. Yeah.

2:07:56It takes away the pain, but, I mean, you know, then there's the enhanced games that are coming out in Vegas this year. I know. My friend had that idea a long time ago. He was like, you should just do the drug Olympics for cash. He goes, do it in Vegas for cash. And then the enhanced games. They're doing it. I sent him a telly. I was like, they're doing it. Yeah. And it's just like, I'm down. I love it. Let's see what a human being can do. That's what I think. I mean, look, when Barry Bonds and, you know, Sammy Sosa and those guys were cracking out home runs. it was one of the most exciting times of baseball.

2:08:28It was pretty exciting. It was fucking great. That's why they didn't do anything. They knew it was not a fucking mystery to anybody. Right. But Avery's tuning in. Look at the Bash brothers. Right. They did baseball on a strike. You know, they almost fucking destroyed that league and then people started watching. Yeah, they brought it back. Because guys were hitting home runs. And then Bonds is like, well, these two fucking guys are hitting this many home runs. I'm the best player in baseball, which he was. Yep. And when he did it, it lights out. Yeah. You know what I mean? He had a year where he only swung and missed 26 times.

2:08:56162 games 3.5 at-bats a game only swung and missed I mean that's just you know and yeah McGuire just like move his wrist to get the ball out of the park and it was like it was fun to watch and when people say steroids don't make you a better athlete oh they maybe don't make you a better athlete but if you're a fucking Barry Barnes if you're already an elite athlete yeah if you let John Jones do all the juice he wants he'd be fighting until he's 50 and fucking people up If you say, John, we've really come to our senses. This sport's all about excitement. I want to give the people what they want.

2:09:30Let people make informed choices based on their own discretion. Oh, it's like that. Welcome back. Welcome back. Then also John looks like Vitor in that picture. He'd be undefeated. By the way, John beat Vitor when Vitor was in his prime. And Vitor caught John in a full arm bar, totally locked his arm out, hyperextended it, popped it, went backwards. You can see the video of it. His elbow is going that way. He wouldn't tap and then beat him in the next round. With one arm. Yep. One arm. His arm was fucked for like a year after that. Yeah. Yeah. Give that man some steroids. Let's see what he can do.

2:10:06Steroids. Let him be the king of the world. Yeah. The dream team. It's like, you know, the first time the pros went to the Olympics, whatever, the year was 90. Oh, yeah. It was so fun. Won every game by 70 points. Yeah. It wasn't close, but it was a hell of a lot of fun. It was fun to watch. Well, the argument for that made sense, though, because like these other people are being compensated in their countries. Oh, yeah, I had no problem. And then, by the way, now it's got more of that. Last Olympic championship, that was a great game against France. That was fabulous, you know? I mean, yeah, they're going to wreck some smaller countries and stuff.

2:10:34But, okay, you're playing pros, they're playing pros. The whole definition of amateurism has gotten a little bit like, you know. Yes. People find, like, a convenient definition of it according to what's their – like, you see in college sports, it's changing and stuff. Like, look, I got no problem if you're going to apply the rules evenly. but sometimes when it feels like it's just an excuse for the NCAA to make a billion dollars off the TV deal, I'm like, no, no, no, you guys, you're getting education. It's like a little bit like, yeah, you're getting education, you guys are making a lot of money because people want to see Nebraska play.

2:11:04It's exploitation. Yeah, and I'm glad they've changed that with college sports because these guys are the reason why you're filling up the seats, and they deserve that money. Not even one of them is going to be in the NFL. You know what I mean? Some of them, that's their window to make that fucking money. You know what I mean? It's hard. It's hard. And the risk of catastrophic injury is always there. It's constant. Constant, yeah. And the metrics, it's like, what is it, a two-and-a-half-year career or something? Really average? Yep. Depending on your position, but, I mean, it's such a long time.

2:11:34Yeah, that seems just fair and obvious. You can pay a kid to flip a cheeseburger out of college, but not to, like, you know, come on. Well, that's the great thing about doing something where you're not relying on your body, like acting. Yeah. You could kind of do it forever, you know? Keep going until you lose it. You know what I mean? It's really, yeah, it's great. And it's got its own competitive aspect. Of course. But like, okay, great. If you get a really bet on yourself and then the expectation is, well, I got to do something that's interesting enough that people want to watch it. Well, that's the proposition anyway.

2:12:04How do you guys decide like on projects that you choose? Like I'm sure you have so many options now. Like what makes you say this is what I'm going to spend the next six months doing? It's really, I mean, there are a bunch of different factors. like like the director is being the most important one but but if you read a script and and like we've read so many thousands and thousands of scripts and written so many scripts and worked on so many movies that that if if we read something in it and it it's that thing we were talking about earlier you know you get that get that kind of emotional something happens when you read it you go okay well then you then you pay attention to it maybe read it again go wait a And, you know, if it moves you in that way, then, you know, ultimately the big decision is saying yes because you're going to spend.

2:12:53It's the last point of which you have total control. Right. You know, and then you're in. Then you're in. And you're in whether it's good or bad. I mean, I've been on those movies where I knew a month into a six-month shoot that, like, this is not going to work. And that is the fucking worst. What is that like? It's the worst. it is i i came to think of that it happened and they're gonna shoot us all when it comes out yeah okay it's like it's all bad it's like it's it's gonna be it's gonna be 80 16 hour days in a row and then uh a post-production period that's gonna be pretty fraught and then it's gonna come out and we're gonna get fucking crushed and then you're gonna have to sell it you're gonna have to walk the fucking plank and sit down with access you know what i mean like so saw the movie how important is that stuff still today?

2:13:44Like, the press stuff. Is that still important? It is. I don't know to what degree each specific thing is. It's kind of ironic because we were talking about coming on this show today. I remember we were saying, I was like, doing this show, it would be more meaningful than the rest of the shit we do in aggregate to promote this movie. Like, we spent this whole week in New York doing, you know, I don't know how many interviews, you know, the quick ones with all the outlets. 105-minute interviews, all the evening shows, the day shows. Yeah, all that stuff. and this, just given how many people listen to the show, will be more meaningful.

2:14:17We think, I mean, we were speculating. Historically, right, if you look at it, because they've changed to like, all of it feels kind of produced and forced and advertised and people have become resistant to anything that feels kind of like a gimmick and a shtick and you go on and you do your song and dance and they say the thing, it looks great, and nobody cares. Like, they're looking to go, either because somebody they know says it's interesting or somebody that they is trusted and a trusted person is in like your like your feed right and it's your friend or your your cousin or it's or they affix that to somebody which has become a more rare thing like who's a like a legitimate neutral arbiter right who i can't predict what they're going to say before i go there there are a few of those fewer and fewer of those people in the world even those are proliferation of more and more voices and i it's kind of paradoxical Like the form of entertainment is getting shorter and shorter and shorter.

2:15:11So you're like a seven second, you know, we're an advertising company. We do most of the spots that we release, like 15 second spots, six second spots for social, the ones most people see. And then there's this one form, which is like long form discussions that are whatever, two hours long. And the amazing thing to me is, you know, in a world where it seems like you can't get people to pay attention more than, you know, a few seconds, there's a kind of a hunger for that. So there's like this form and that's why you see these are getting more popular. Obviously, you have this massive audience and it's kind of flying in the face of the whole other trend.

2:15:46And I think and I don't know that it probably has something to do with like, who do I think is authentic? And am I actually willing to extend my two hours of my time to sit there and listen through? And that an argument that people probably do appreciate and understand conversations that have context and nuance. and where there's like a back and forth. They're just much more selective about who they're willing to kind of give that sort of voice to in their life. It's also the voice of the public, too, because when people start talking about things online and things go viral online and people just start saying how great they love the film or how great this album is or something like that, it just takes off organically now.

2:16:29And that has more weight than anything. If you feel like somebody else who obviously has no dog in the fight is going, hey, this is great. You should see it. I'm the same thing. If I hear somebody tell me, like, you know, who I respect, hey, you got to see that thing. That means more to me than anything, right? Because I believe that. And so if the closer you can get to that, which is why I think the act of, A, like telling the same, you know, like telling the same story about you should go see the movie to a bunch of people with a certain like limited reach. It's just not that efficient. But you have to because it's like, well, we sat down with our own interest in Anaka and talked about the movie, you know, and you kind of do that ostensibly because it means a little bit more in that market.

2:17:11But I think ultimately it's like more and more people realize they're being sold to, see through the fucking act and this sort of bullshit of it. They recognize that, you know, you go out and sell every movie, you know what I mean, the good and the bad. And then we got to decide, well, which one and who can you count on? Well, it's mostly going to be that like the word of mouth, your friend. And now you can see that person in your media experience, you know? Yeah. And I think it's also we know that when you're sitting down with extra or all these things, like that's just their job to sit down with people.

2:17:42They're not doing it because they want to. Right. You know? They got told, go talk to that person. And we got told, go talk to them. Exactly. So they go do the ritual. Yeah. And they say the thing they say and we say the thing we say. And everyone goes home and says we did our job. That's the benefit of an independent podcast is that, like, with me, I don't talk to anybody I don't want to talk to. It's just like I literally do the whole thing on my phone. I go, oh, yeah, that sounds cool. And that's it. But, like, that I think means a lot. At least this person is making this choice. And I've listened to it a bunch, and I actually find myself agreeing with it a lot of the time.

2:18:15So, all right, I'll give it a shot. You know, it's exactly it. I think also like this format, like at least I know why it, why I started listening to podcasts was because in the world, like the divisive kind of the way everybody was talking, these sound bites and all this shit. And it was just like the ability to just listen to human beings talk often who had different points of view, but like had a civil conversation. Yeah. It was like, it was such a welcome thing, you know, given the kind of the hysterical kind of, you know, frenzy of divisiveness that's kind of, it just feels, it's just like, you know, it's like if I open my phone and look at the news, I feel like, fuck.

2:19:02It's like, put it down. It's just, it's like I feel my cortisol level go up. And to actually hear people, listen to people I know I don't agree with, but listen to them and just think about it. You know what I mean? I mean, approach life with a little bit of humility. Hold on to what you believe, obviously, but keep listening. It's also there's not a lot of opportunities in the real world to have long conversations with people. So people are kind of starving for that. I know. Isn't it funny that this has become the shared cultural, like, we'll listen to that podcast and then actually experience that.

2:19:37And also, why don't people trust the media? Well, because the media doesn't do that because they compress it and because the truth, it's money. because actually doing that's not with money. It's just ratings and the perceived idea that like, well, if you simplify it or you position it one way or that you engender outrage, that's simple. Or just pure one-sided ideas that are simple. But the news used to be, the idea was, look, here's the FCC. We're going to let these networks broadcast their shows and make money on it. But here's the deal. You got to give an hour of that and lose money on that hour to tell the news and try to tell it objectively.

2:20:13then it started to be, no, you've got to make money for that hour, too. And if you're going to make money, that's a different incentive than Tell the Truth or Reporters or any of those things. And people try to hybridize them. But at the end of the day, you're a more successful reporter if more people watch you because advertisers pay more. And then they're doing the same thing, looking at their data, what are people watching, what kinds of stories. And I think this is simple answers because you're just making it into a profit game. those incentives are not aligned with just trying to get down to like even reporting basic facts yeah it's a weird time it's like we have more access to information than ever before but so much of it is just horseshit yeah you know it's it's hard to stay balanced yeah and i think that's why it's good to like listen to people just talk yeah and and then you recognize like the flaws in their thinking you feel ego you feel deception bullshit you know it's true people reveal themself like you actually we actually don't need that many editorialists yeah to be constantly telling us what to think and how to think because people actually have pretty good instincts you know if someone's bullshitting you'll eventually they'll kind of hang themselves like you said you'll get that vibe after a while he kind of started repeating his shtick and i kind of didn't really talk about what i was wondering about and you form your own that's like forming your own judge pete butage actually talked about that being dangerous on podcasts he's like because you you go on there and you have your points but you'll get revealed over the course of a few hours like you can only stick to these lines yeah you can only talking points and bullshit for and then and then what happens is people just like there was an art to like look at how great that communicator they stick to the message and they do their points okay 30 seconds 60 seconds but any longer than that it just starts to look like a fucking robot on you know and like i said what we need to follow through I saw you do the same hand gesture and the same bit with that.

2:22:10Sometimes you find out they're full of shit just by having them talk about other things. Tell me, do you like cooking? And then you just see some concocted... They're thinking, what makes me look good about cooking? Exactly. Well, I'll tell you what. What would the focus group say? That's exactly it. Do I cook or do I not? Does that make me feminine or does it make me open to cultural? Yeah. What do you like to cook, man? I don't cook. Well, that's the other thing about people that are online too much is they're so concerned with other people's opinions that they don't have enough time to formulate their own.

2:22:48They're just so concerned with how people are going to perceive everything you say that you're like handcuffed. You're like terrified to misspeak. Right. Right. I think that in general is a real fucking danger. I mean, we were talking the other day, we were saying about one of the benefits of getting older and doing this for a long time is you realize nobody really gives a shit about you. You just kind of, nobody remembers. You spend your 20s and 30s thinking this is really important, and then you realize no one cares. I'm not going to come off, and what's going to be? No one actually cares. It's not that big a deal.

2:23:21Most people are mostly worrying about themselves and their life. Yeah, there's this illusion that they pay a passing moment of attention or it's in some story. It's like you're fucking staring at it because it's about you. Right. You know, you said that about me. Nobody else really. Nobody cares. And if they do, they're usually fucked up. Like something's wrong. Why are you concentrating on this other person's life? That's really matter. You're probably trying to ignore your own bullshit. Right. Yeah. Well, listen, man, your movie's fucking awesome. I've loved so much of your films over the years.

2:23:51so it's been really cool to be able to have you guys in here and talk about this. It's been great. Thanks for having us. Two very normal, nice movie stars. You guys are cool as fuck. Give us a couple more hours. Yeah, exactly. I enjoyed it and I really enjoyed the rip. It's fucking great and everybody, go see it. It's great. I loved it. Thank you. Thanks for being here. All right. It's a pleasure. Bye, everybody.

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