#2448 - Andrew Doyle

11:23Joe Rogan:Eight weeks? Eight weeks in prison. Again, I'll tell you what the most offensive of the three memes was, and you can tell me whether you think it was worth prison time. He put a picture of some immigrants with knives, and underneath it said, coming to a town near you. And that was it. So I don't know if you think that's worth prison time. That's the most offensive one? Of the three, that's the most. What's the least offensive one? I can't remember what the other two were. Because I remember I looked at them. I thought, well, that's not even worth thinking about. But this one was the one that really – because they say in England you're stirring up hatred against minorities through the spreading of the meme.

12:01Andrew Doyle:Right.

12:02Joe Rogan:But that's clearly not sufficient. And I think in the U.S. you have far more protections. I wonder whether it's to do with the fact that in the U.S. you have the First Amendment.

12:12Andrew Doyle:So you have something codified that says you can say what you want.

12:17Joe Rogan:We've never had that.

12:18Andrew Doyle:It's very important. And it didn't seem important 20 years ago or 30 years ago because no one ever looked at England as being that kind of a country that would just put people – well, obviously, this was all pre-social media. Yeah, yeah. And England has always been a fairly polite society.

12:34Joe Rogan:Yes.

12:35Andrew Doyle:But the thing is like now pub talk has become illegal, right? Yeah. Like if you say something offensive in a pub, you're subject to be arrested and they're asking people to turn people in.

12:46Joe Rogan:There's a thing called the banter ban, which the Labour government was trying to put in. Here's the logic of the banter ban. I've forgotten about this, but now you've mentioned it. They wanted to introduce this law so that, for instance, if you're working in a bar or a pub and you overhear someone who says something against your protected characteristic. Say you're a gay barman and someone says, oh, I don't like the gays or something. and you overhear it, your employer has a duty to protect you from that kind of hate speech, that kind of harm. So therefore, there's going to be a blanket ban on speech in uncertain kinds of speech within the pub, right?

13:20Joe Rogan:I would say the guy who's eavesdropping, he's the problem, right? You shouldn't be listening in on other people's conversations. So that's a real thing. Yes. And I guess it all comes down to this view, which I think is completely wrong, that words and violence are the same thing, that words can create a more violent society. that there's a direct causal link between the stuff that people say and the stuff that people say online to how people behave in the real world. And I think you guys have got it right because you've got the Brandenburg test. Do you know about the test for incitement to violence in the US?

13:50Joe Rogan:No, what is that? It's basically a test that was established, I think, back in the 60s. It was a KKK leader called Clarence Brandenburg who was prosecuted for incitement to violence. And the test that was established since that precedent was that any words that can be convicted for incitement to violence, They have to be intended to cause violence, likely to cause violence, and the violence must be imminent. And if you satisfy that threshold, you can be prosecuted in the US for incitement to violence. So it'd be like kind of imagine a demagogue surrounded by all his fans whipping up a frenzy and then pointing to a guy on the front row and saying, kill him now.

14:25Joe Rogan:That would qualify for the Brandenburg test. But in the UK, because we don't have that test, all we've got is whether people found it offensive. That's the difference of the threshold. So it's a massive difference between what the US has and what the UK has. Massive. It's insane. I mean, to give the most obvious recent example, because I don't know if people know about this, there's a woman called Lucy Connolly in the UK. I don't know if this was reported over here at all. Do you remember we had all these riots last year during the summer against hotels which were housing asylum seekers and people were setting fire to them?

14:59Joe Rogan:There were genuinely racist stuff going on during those riots. and this was off the back of a guy who'd murdered a bunch of little girls in a dance class and there were rumors going around that this was an asylum seeker right and this one woman a mother who'd lost her daughter very sensitive about the idea of Lucy Connolly she's very sensitive about the idea of loss of kids she tweeted in an in a fit of anger go and burn down all the hotels for all I care if that makes me racist so be it and take the government with you something like that And she deleted it within a couple of hours. She went out, walked her dog, she deleted it.

15:32Joe Rogan:She thought, that's not me, that's not who I am. Deleted it. Police came, went to court, sentenced to 31 months in prison for that swiftly deleted tweet. And she served over a year.

15:46Andrew Doyle:Oh my God.

15:47Joe Rogan:Now, I'm not saying the tweet was nice, right? The tweet was a horrible tweet. And she says it was a horrible tweet. That's why she deleted it. But because we don't have that Brandenburg test, we don't have a test for incitement to violence. because the key is that tweet there was no way it could have she was a nobody you know she wasn't someone with influence she didn't have many followers um she no one was going to read that and go and act upon it and if they did that would be on them right because you know this is a myth this myth that people act on cue to what they read online isn't real it influences people for sure

16:20Andrew Doyle:But at what point are you required to have sovereignty over your own mind and your own actions?

16:29Joe Rogan:Yeah. Well, I think what it does is it raises the temperature, particularly when political leaders do it. Right.

16:34Andrew Doyle:But my point is like it's not going to incite you to violence. It's not going to incite me to violence. So who are we talking about? This is part of the thing is like they're protecting the dumbest members of society. This is like the thing about banning, you know crazy talk online if you talk about witches or you know Whatever it is like we have to stop misinformation from from who it's not working on you, right? Yeah, you don't believe it. So who are we protecting? We're protecting the dumbest people

17:05Joe Rogan:Also, aren't you kind of letting them off? Like if someone goes and commits an act of violence and said I did it because someone told me to do it Aren't you kind of letting them off the hook right? Exactly and sort of displacing the blame You know, it's like that guy who shot John Lennon who said Catcher in the Rye made him do it. Reading the book Catcher. Are we now blaming J.D. Salinger for the murder of John Lennon? It was John Lennon, wasn't it? I think he did. So do you – I think the safest approach is to say people are responsible for their own actions. I think the best that you could say is when political leaders and people with clout say things like that, sort of say, you know, it's fine to go out and commit violence.

17:41Joe Rogan:I think what they do is they create a kind of imprimatur of approval. They create this kind of sense that if you do it, the people in charge will have your back. If you do it, it's OK.

17:51Andrew Doyle:Well, this was the argument with Trump for January 6th. And that's why the BBC edited his speech to make it look as if that's what he was saying.

18:00Joe Rogan:You saw that clip. Oh, my God. It's fucking crazy. I mean, I've been saying for a long time the BBC has a real – like what I will say in the BBC's defense is they've always been pretty good at being party politically neutral. Like they will interrogate someone in the right and someone in the left in a pretty neutral way. They don't. I think they do pretty good. I know people will be annoyed at me for saying that, but I think they do. But I think in terms of the ideology, the woke ideology, they got captured. They have a thing at the BBC called the LGBT desk, or they had it up until recently, which could veto any news story, which meant that any story that was slightly critical of trans activism or anything like that just didn't get reported.

18:37Joe Rogan:So I'm not surprised that the BBC. They gave them veto power? They gave them veto power, yeah. That's crazy. This all came out in a report, quite a recent report just a few months ago, which led to the resignation of Tim David, the director general. And he resigned ostensibly because of that Trump clip, which, by the way, that wasn't the first time they did it. There was another clip about a year before in a different program that did the same thing. Took the clip, re-edited it and made it look like he had said something he absolutely had not said. So I think the BBC quite obviously has an ideological bias, if not a party political bias.

19:12Joe Rogan:But that's more than a bias. It's misleading, right?

19:15Andrew Doyle:It's completely deceptive. You're editing something and they took out a giant chunk of his speech. This episode is brought to you by 1-800-Flowers.com. Valentine's Day is coming up. It always sneaks up on people. If you want an easy way to absolutely crush it this year, this is it. 1-800-Flowers-Roses. They're bigger and actually last. Plus, they back it with a seven-day freshness guarantee so you can feel confident that you're sending the best. Here's the deal. Right now, they've got this double blooms offer. You buy one dozen roses, they double it to two dozen for free. No catch. Same price, way bigger statement.

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20:32Joe Rogan:Yeah, he said it made him look like he was saying go and exactly exactly

20:35Andrew Doyle:Yeah, exactly and instead he he was in tongue-in-cheek Talking about the very fine senator that they're doing a great job the senators and Congress people. Yeah said all this other stuff It's so weird that you have to fight like hell to keep your country

20:50Joe Rogan:I mean no offense, but you can find daft stuff that Trump says pretty easily, right? But you don't need to edit that stuff down.

20:58Andrew Doyle:Well, it's because they had an opportunity to – like what we were saying before earlier, we were talking before the show. You can put out a narrative and it doesn't have to be true. And then that's the one that sticks. So that's the one that spreads wide. And then when all these years later, they have to have this trial and everybody finds out it's not true. But the damage is done. I mean that's what they did with Trump during the whole Steele dossier. Yeah. You know, the hookers and peeing on people and all that crazy shit.

21:28Joe Rogan:Remember that? I remember the idea that he'd hired hookers to urinate on the bed that was once occupied by the Obamas. Something along those lines. Now, the reason I didn't believe that is I don't think Trump is that avant-garde. I don't think he's that creative. Like, if he'd have come up with that, I'd have been actually applauding that. That's kind of amazing. But obviously he didn't do that. But that's not even something to applaud. That just sounds completely ridiculous. Getting urination on the bed of your enemy through the medium of prostitution. I think that's kind of an artistic thing to do.

21:53Joe Rogan:But I don't think he did it. I obviously didn't do it. None of it's true. But you put that. But isn't that weird that that in particular, that's like something I don't think anyone seriously could believe. Well, there's plenty of people that believed it.

22:04Andrew Doyle:Really? Yeah, they don't have to believe it. They just say it. Like that was the whole point about, you know, the trial where he got arrested and convicted of 34 counts that are a felony, none of which are actually a felony. That's all bookkeeping deception. It's that was the paying off of the girl. So now you can say he's a convicted felon You could just say that and even though all those counts were misdemeanors All of them had passed the statute of limitations. Yeah, but for some reason through no Legal way that anybody could ever really honestly explain They decided to label it a felony and it's just to turn them into a felon

22:46Joe Rogan:I saw the I saw even left-leaning anti-Trump lawyers saying this is not how the law should work. You can't artificially elevate a misdemeanor to a felony outside the statute of limitations. It's crazy.

22:56Andrew Doyle:But the thing is, if you do that, they're going to do that to you. It's like we're going to give that kind of power to the Republicans, and now when they're in office, they're going to start doing things like that? Are we crazy?

23:06Joe Rogan:Well, also, this really bothers me. One of the key things that I think has happened over the past few years is this complete lack of fealty to the truth from both sides. It's whatever is convenient matters more. a complete lack of intellectual curiosity, a complete lack of investigating and looking and thoroughly checking. And by the way, with the BBC, that really matters because unlike the news media here, which can be as partisan as it likes, the BBC is the state broadcaster. It's got a responsibility by charter to not be, you know, to be balanced, to be even-handed, and it completely failed.

23:38Joe Rogan:And I saw today, just this morning, some people, you know, we've got all the mania about the Epstein files at the moment. Some activists have now said J.K. Rowling once invited Epstein to the opening of her play. Never happened. But because there's a furore about Epstein at the moment, they're just saying it happened. It gets spread all over the place.

23:57Andrew Doyle:That's all you have to do.

23:58Joe Rogan:And that's all you have to do. And then that gets repeated. Oh, didn't this happen?

24:03Andrew Doyle:I know.

24:04Joe Rogan:Like what you say about Trump is right. I always hear that he's a convicted felon. He's a convicted felon. Well, why don't you pause for a minute and assess whether or not that conviction is sound or whether it was politically motivated or how helpful that is. But like you say... Also, it's such a dangerous president to send.

24:19Andrew Doyle:It's terrible. Like if you do that, look, right now in the United States, the media predominantly leans left except for Fox News, the mainstream large-scale media. I guess CBS is probably going to lean more right now. It seems like it's in the process of that. But for the most part, when you watch CNN, if you watch MSNBC, If you watch the mainstream news, it's very left leaning. Yeah. But if the fucking if right wing people started, if it was like more common for the news to be right leaning and then they started doing the exact same thing about a left leaning candidate. Yeah. This is so dangerous.

25:00Andrew Doyle:And the idea that the left doesn't recognize that, which are the people that have always been in support of free speech? It's never been a right-wing thing to support free speech until now. It's always been a left-wing thing when I was a kid It was famously the case of the ADL Defending Nazis having the right to protest and saying look we think what they're saying is abhorrent But it's very important that you get the right to say whatever you feel and then the way to combat that is with much better More concise speech that's much more logical and makes sense. Yeah, and this is what you do This is what debate is for.

25:35Andrew Doyle:We've always known this.

25:36Joe Rogan:Yeah, but I mean, I agree. I'm so dispirited by that, that very thing that you've identified, that the left used to be about this. The left used to be all about – I mean, that example you mentioned of Skokie, wasn't it, in Chicago, the Nazis marching through Skokie and the ACLU saying, you know, we're defending this. There was a book by a guy called Aya Neha who was the head of the ACLU called Defending My Enemy. Yeah, it wasn't the ADL.

25:57Andrew Doyle:It was the ACLU. It was the ACLU. And he was saying, you know, he's Jewish.

26:02Joe Rogan:He's got family members who died in the Holocaust. But he's writing a book saying, I'm defending neo-Nazis' right to free speech, not because I support them, but because I don't. And I want to defend the principle whereby I can tackle them. And that's speech.

26:15Andrew Doyle:Right.

26:15Joe Rogan:So in other words, the principle is so much bigger. I mean, the thing that I think has been lost. And now, by the way, the ACLU, complete about turn. I mean, there was a lawyer for the ACLU tweeting about how he wanted Abigail Schreier's book banned. And he said, this is the hill I will die on. You know, that's a guy called Chase. I think it's a trans activist called Chase something. I can't remember. Anyway, but the point is, how far have you fallen? When it comes to these free speech issues, left or right, it's nothing to do with it. It should be about this principle of it's not whether you agree with what they're saying and the substance of what they're saying.

26:46Joe Rogan:It's whether you want the principle intact. And that principle applies to us all. The very same principle that allows the Nazis to say all their crazy stuff is the principle that allows us to challenge it. to tackle it.

26:57Andrew Doyle:Well, it's a very short-term win. It's basically they're playing chess and they decided, I want that rook no matter what. And then they just sacrifice their queen. Like, look what you've done. Look what you've done for this short-term victory. You're essentially tanking civilization for a decade where we have to sort this out and let the ship wash itself back and forth until it writes.

27:21Joe Rogan:Yeah, and how do you ensure that it's not going to happen to you? Like, I think about that. There was a National Conservative Conference in Brussels about a year and a half ago. The local mayor said, I don't like this. And he had the police rush it, shut it down. And you had mainstream right wing figures like Nigel Farage, Suala Braverman. How do they not think, hang on a minute, if we establish that precedent where you can just shut down your political opponents through the use of police force, how will that not rebound on me? How will that not happen to us?

27:47Andrew Doyle:Well, this is the argument that they're using right now for Trump going after his political opponents.

27:51Joe Rogan:Right, right. Because they opened that Pandora's box, right?

27:53Andrew Doyle:You guys did that with him. Yeah. And everybody was saying how damn dangerous it is. You can't fucking do that. Even if you hate the guy. Like if there's a real crime that you can get someone. But when you take a crime like the bookkeeping stuff and turn it into a felony that could put this man in jail for the rest of his life for doing something that turns out to be legal. You can pay people to shut up. And this is so – it's just – it's so weird that people for this short-term gain are willing to tank, which is essentially this whole structure of our civilization that allows free discourse. You need it.

28:30Andrew Doyle:It's so important. It's so important to be able to communicate and talk. If podcasts didn't exist, there was no way to talk through ideas other than mainstream news. We would still be stuck in some very bizarre 1990s or 1980s narrative about how the world works. Yeah. We would have real problems. We'd have real problems if there wasn't independent journalism like on Twitter and on wherever they can post.

28:58Joe Rogan:Yeah. So why don't they get it? I mean, we've had people in left-leaning papers in the UK calling for Elon Musk to be arrested because he's allowing free speech on X or Twitter, whatever you want to call it.

29:08Andrew Doyle:Well, their offices got raided today in some country. There was a country where X's offices got raided. I think one of the things was they somehow or another let – I think something had to do with child pornography. Where was that? France? France. Wow. investigation into grok and what is it what are the oh so you know what this is yeah suspected offenses including unlawful data extraction and complicity in the possession of child pornography yeah but that's not what

29:41Joe Rogan:this is about this is because people have been misusing grok to like put bikinis on women they like or it could even in a few cases creating child child sex you can do wait a minute you can't create child pornography I don't know No. Or at least I think that's very much been shut down and safeguarded, right? I think that's what's happened.

29:59Andrew Doyle:I mean, unless there's like some sort of a loophole where you could get it to do it. Among potential crimes, it said it would investigate where complicity in possession or organized distribution of images of children of a pornographic nature. Infringement of people's image rights with sexual deepfakes. Okay, the sexual deepfakes. So sexual deepfakes is like if you put Hillary Clinton in a bikini and made her hot. That's a sexual deepfake. Okay. fraudulent data extraction by an organized group. I think you can still do some of that stuff. You can put people in bikinis. Yeah, I think you can do that.

30:31Andrew Doyle:So like if you wanted to take Shaquille O 'Neal and put him in a bikini, you could say you're sexualizing him.

30:37Joe Rogan:Okay. Yeah. I mean, I guess you can do that. Yeah. So that'll be why, you know, recently Keir Starmer, Prime Minister of the UK, said he was considering or not necessarily he was going to ban X, but it wasn't off the table. It's something like as though he's going to do that. But this is always the excuse. Like, we're protecting children. And look, no one wants that sort of stuff, right? No one wants deep fakes of kids, obviously. But there's far, I mean, looking at the stats on that, there's far more child sexual exploitation on Snapchat, for instance. But they don't go after Snapchat because Snapchat isn't the form where Keir Starmer is getting criticised every single day and brutally hauled over the coals by people checking his facts.

31:16Joe Rogan:One of the best things about X recently is the community notes. Checking journalists and politicians in real time with facts. They hate it. They hate that.

31:24Andrew Doyle:So no wonder they're going after X. Yeah, Biden got cooked by community notes multiple times. Yeah, yeah. To the part where the administration was taking down posts.

31:31Joe Rogan:Yeah. So did the Guardian, the left-leaning newspaper. It flounced off X with a big statement saying, we're going to Blue Sky. We've had it. We're off to Blue Sky. It was such a flounce. And of course, and then, of course, everyone was retweeting all their community notes. They had loads of them. Of course. Just absolutely loads of them. Because it's not true.

31:49Andrew Doyle:And, you know, especially when it's open to the whole world. and people that aren't stuck under your guidelines, like in America, we could just talk shit. And I think the reason why it's in France probably has a lot to do with Candace Owens.

32:01Joe Rogan:Oh, yes, that makes complete sense.

32:03Andrew Doyle:Yeah, Brigitte Macron. I mean, how many times did that get shared?

32:08Joe Rogan:Yeah, exactly.

32:09Andrew Doyle:I mean, that is...

32:10Joe Rogan:That makes sense of it now.

32:11Andrew Doyle:By the way, there's a real quick way to solve that. Open chromosome test. Go ahead and do it.

32:17Joe Rogan:I thought you were going to be a bit more graphic than that.

32:18Andrew Doyle:Well, you don't have to do that. No, you don't have to. because that doesn't really solve it because you could, unless, I mean, there's no operation, but if she's gone through a surgery, then, you know, you could show a picture and it's probably pretty realistic, especially when was the last time you saw a 70-year-old lady's cooter? Last week.

32:34Joe Rogan:Oh, yeah.

32:35Andrew Doyle:Congratulations.

32:36Joe Rogan:I'm just interested in that sort of stuff. Well, you know, you're allowed to be curious in this country. That's actually a really good example, though, isn't it, of the just something so obviously not true, just going all over the world, like in a matter of moments. Is it not true, though? Well, Macron's wife is a man. Yeah, that's not true. 100 %? Well, you know, the burden of proof is on those who want to say that it is true. The reality of the story is weird enough without it being true.

33:00Andrew Doyle:Like the 40-year-old man and the... He was... Wasn't she his school teacher? She was 40, yeah. She was 40, if it is actually a woman. She was 40 and he was 15. That's crazy.

33:11Joe Rogan:And everyone says, well, they're French. That seems to be the thing.

33:14Andrew Doyle:What a wild country.

33:17Joe Rogan:People just say that's the way it works in France. But again, look, I would say with all of this, you need some sort of proof. Wasn't it the Carl Sagan thing about extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? I think that's a pretty safe diktat. The idea that, OK, anything could be true. There have been crazy conspiracies that turned out to be true. So I would never rule anything out. But what I'm saying is if you're going to make a claim like that, You better be damn sure you've got really solid evidence about that.

33:47Andrew Doyle:Yeah, she's got hours-long documentaries on this. Yeah, and are they persuasive? I haven't watched them all. I haven't watched them all. Do you think I have that kind of time, Doug?

33:56Joe Rogan:Well, you should do. You should do your research. You're part of the problem. Outrageous. I can't do research on that. I want to wait until it plays out in court. But whenever I do do research, I'll give you the example from this week, just because I'm reading it now. A woman's written a book claiming that Shakespeare was a black woman.

34:15Andrew Doyle:I saw that.

34:16Joe Rogan:Yeah. So this is a major spoiler alert. Shakespeare wasn't a black woman. Crazy. Yeah. I've got the book. I'm reading the book now. It is worse than you imagine. How could it be worse than I imagine? Because. Because. It's obviously not true, first of all. Of course. But she basically says in the book that it's important that it should be true. And therefore. Yeah. In fact, the book opens with a picture of Shakespeare as a black woman, which was drawn by the author. Is it a good drawing? It's okay. I don't want to mock someone else. Can I see it? Can I see it? If it's out, it's the first. Oh, that's the book.

34:54Joe Rogan:That's actually pretty good. No, no, no, no. That's a black woman? No, no, no. That's a portrait of Amelia Lanyer, who she says was Shakespeare. And she says that the portraits at the time were whitened to disguise her blackness. in the book itself. How convenient. In the book itself, you won't be able to get in the book, I don't think, Jamie, but in the book itself, there's a sketch that she's done. So it's like, I can imagine a publisher saying, oh, what evidence have you got? And she's like, oh, well, I'll go and draw it for you. And that's sort of what she's done. Oh, she was black and Jewish?

35:23Joe Rogan:Yeah, black Jewish. Well, actually, I mean, Amelia Lanyard was part Moorish, but wasn't black and she wasn't particularly dark skinned. And she was Jewish as well?

35:31Andrew Doyle:Yeah, part Jewish. Okay, so who is this woman that they're saying actually was Shakespeare? Tax Act understands you haven't memorized the tax code. That's why Tax Act has live experts to help. Tax Act can even do it for you if you prefer. It's the easiest way to know you're doing it right. Well, other than going back to college and obtaining a bachelor's degree in accounting with a minor in finance, then interning somewhere and becoming fluent in all tax forms. But that might be hard to accomplish before tax day. So maybe just stick with Tax Act. Tax Act. Let's get them over with.

36:06Joe Rogan:So she's called Amelia Lanya or Amelia Bassano. And one of the arguments is that Shakespeare at the time, if she was a woman, wouldn't have been able to get published because women couldn't get published. But Amelia Lanya was published. She had a book of poetry. So all of this stuff falls apart like in two seconds flat. And this is the best one. She even says in the book that the word Shakespeare is an anagram of a she speaker. I'm not making that up. That's what she says. I mean, you know, listen. What a cover-up. How'd she crack the case? Well, actually, it's an old theory. It's like a 20-year-old theory.

36:46Joe Rogan:Is it really? I tell you. 20 years old. She's just sort of rehashing it now for this identitarian post-woke world where we're all like we're desperate for Shakespeare to be a black woman. And it's so. It's so fun. It's so pathetic. This was my first encounter with conspiracy theories because my background is I did a doctorate in Shakespeare. My background was teaching Shakespeare back in the day, like before I did comedy and before I did anything else. And it was the conspiracy theorists around Shakespeare saying Shakespeare couldn't have written his work. They are the most intense, the most angry, the most evidence free cohort of people.

37:18Joe Rogan:They get more, they're more angrier than the woke. I promise you. Like I've tweeted, I've written stuff about Shakespeare online. I recently did some lectures about Shakespeare for the Peterson Academy because I'm really into, I love the Peterson Academy. I love what they're doing. And I did these Shakespeare lectures and the conspiracy theorists were on to me online. saying it wasn't Shakespeare. The guy from Stratford didn't write this. And what all these theories have in common is they've just made, there's no evidence. There's no evidence. The key point about Shakespeare is if you're going to say it wasn't the guy who everyone thought it was, you have to answer one key question.

37:48Joe Rogan:Why does everyone who knew Shakespeare, wrote about Shakespeare, say that it was? Can I stop you? Because I'm confused.

37:54Andrew Doyle:I didn't even know that there was a conspiracy about Shakespeare. Oh, wow. Yeah, there's lots. I had heard one person say that Shakespeare wasn't real and that it was really someone else's work that he plagiarized. Yeah. I had heard that. But I never even bothered to fuck around with it.

38:11Joe Rogan:Well, it actually came from America. It's you guys. We're the best. We're number one. It was a guy called Looney, actually, from America. That's hilarious. That's his name.

38:19Andrew Doyle:You've got to listen to that guy.

38:22Joe Rogan:We're going back like 60, 70 years or something. But he came up with this idea that Shakespeare was actually an aristocrat called Edward de Vere, the Earl of Oxford. Problem is, Edward de Vere died in 1604. That's before Macbeth. That's before Antony and Cleopatra. That's before Coriolanus. That's before The Tempest. So he managed to, I think they get around it by saying, he wrote these plays and then he died.

38:43Andrew Doyle:And then Shakespeare found them?

38:44Joe Rogan:Or something. Yeah, so even though some of those plays actually have cultural references from the time after De Vere died, but it doesn't matter. Maybe he was a prophet as well. But all of the, you speak to these people, you'll see what I mean. Edward De Vere, some people think it was Francis Bacon. Some people think it was Christopher Marlowe. Some people think it was Elizabeth I. Like all of the candidates they put up, right, the key thing is they're all aristocrats. They're all posh. Why? Because Shakespeare was a middle class, lower middle class, not very rich, didn't go to university, came from the Midlands, you know, up and coming.

39:18Joe Rogan:And they say, well, how could someone like that write about kings and lords and ladies? It's snobbery. They're basically saying working class people can't do art. I mean, really, that's what it is. Otherwise, they wouldn't be going after all these aristocrats. It's the opposite in America, oddly.

39:35Andrew Doyle:Is it? Yeah. So if you were a Rockefeller in America, you're from the Rockefeller family and you wrote an amazing novel, no one would believe it.

39:42Joe Rogan:Right.

39:43Andrew Doyle:They would say, no, that has to be like some guy or some woman who's like grinding, drinking coffee and smoking cigarettes alone in their apartment to write something that's brilliant.

39:53Joe Rogan:So I wonder what it is about the UK. Well, although, like I say, a lot of it comes from America. And is it just the need to tear down an icon? Is it that? Is it? I mean, I get it now with this woman who's saying Shakespeare was a black woman. I get that at the moment because we're in this moment of identitarian, group identity mania. So that makes sense. She's got a political reason why she wants it to be a black woman. So I kind of understand that more. But what is it? I think it might be more to do with the idea that this guy changed civilization, changed literature. No one else has achieved what he achieved in writing.

40:25Joe Rogan:He's up there with Michelangelo, Bach, you know, all of that. Let's tear that down. Let's tear down Western civilization. Let's say none of this is based on anything. This is all untrue. Right. I think it's to do with that innate iconoclasm, that innate just tearing down the great things about our culture.

40:42Andrew Doyle:For sure. That's always been the case. And people always want to tear down idols. They want to tear down whoever it is. No matter what. I was watching this video we were talking about the other day. This woman talked about how the Beatles were terrible. Right. And this woman was not very articulate, not particularly interesting, doesn't seem that compelling. Yeah. And she was going on and on about how bad the Beatles were. I'm like, you're not going to convince anyone. This is not going to work. But people are going to fucking try. They're going to try no matter what, no matter who it is. Hendrix sucked.

41:10Andrew Doyle:I've heard that before. Oh, really? Hendrix sucked. Stop.

41:14Joe Rogan:But at least that's based on an opinion, right? There's a difference between saying Jimi Hendrix sucked and Jimi Hendrix was actually a woman from Liverpool called Maud.

41:22Andrew Doyle:Well, you know the theory about Jimi Hendrix in America. Do you know that? No. Okay. So it's the people that are like deep into the CIA and CIA conspiracies. And what is it called? Strange Tales from the Canyon? Is that what it's called? The book? So there's a book on there's a bizarre connection between a lot of the countercultural figures of the 1960s and the intelligence community. One of them is Jim Morrison's father was like a high ranking military officer. And then there's different people from different bands. that were like a key part of the countercultural movement that all have parents that were either in intelligence communities or closely connected to it.

42:07Andrew Doyle:Weird scenes inside the canyon. It's a crazy book. It's fun. It's kind of fun. Is it crazy as in like the revelations are crazy

42:16Joe Rogan:or that it's just not true?

42:17Andrew Doyle:Well, they make some broad leaps, right? So there's a lot of, and then a year later, he died in mysterious circumstances Or a year later, he died from suicide. Or a year later, he died from an overdose. You know, I'll be cool. Well, okay. You're hanging out with a bunch of people that are doing drugs all the time. And they're all ne 'er-do-wells. And they're all hanging out in Laurel Canyon. And if you don't know Laurel Canyon, Laurel Canyon, at least at the time, I mean, when I first moved to Hollywood, it's like all the weirdos would live in Laurel Canyon.

42:44Joe Rogan:Right.

42:45Andrew Doyle:Like all the weirdos were like right there above Hollywood. And there was all these crazy parties up there. It was like Laurel Canyon was nuts. And they all knew each other, right? Right.

42:53Joe Rogan:They're all part of that circle.

42:55Andrew Doyle:So, I mean, this was like when I moved there in the 90s, this was the case. My friend Dave Foley had a house up there. Right. And it was like all these kooky people. And he was telling me about all these kooky parties and all this different shit. It was like Laurel Canyon was always like kind of, so of course a bunch of people are going to die. So what's the theory? Of course a bunch of people are going to be connected to bands and different counterculture movements. The theory is that the CIA sort of engineered this culture to – I don't know why. I'm not exactly sure because I haven't gotten all the way through the book.

43:29Andrew Doyle:I'm only like halfway. Are you still reading it? No. I pick it up every now and then. It's just like – it's too kooky. It's not grabbing you. Well, you can't make Jimi Hendrix in a lab, okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't. It's just you can't fucking do it. You can't make someone that good. It's not possible. You can't tell me. If they did, why haven't they done it since? Why don't they do it all the time? Because the greatest guitarist of all time, and you're telling me the central intelligence cooked that guy up? So they invented him.

44:00Joe Rogan:He's like their clone or something.

44:02Andrew Doyle:Well, they just think that they had some sort of an influence on these people, on Jim Morrison. There was a thing about Morrison, the Morrison one. Like what is the connection between Jim Morrison's dad and the intelligence agencies? There's some like tangible connection with Jim Morrison's dad. But wouldn't you just normally assume that if your dad was some high-ranking military guy? First of all, never home.

44:26Joe Rogan:Yeah.

44:27Andrew Doyle:Okay. So where are you? You're out running around with your friends, smoking cigarettes and fucking drinking. And you're in a band. And it turns out you got a lot of angst and pain because you're being neglected as a child because your dad works 16 hours a day trying to fuck the country. And so what do you do? Yeah, you go counterculture. It's like it's so calm the preacher's daughter

44:47Joe Rogan:She becomes like a harlot right? There you are high-ranking US officer with yeah, right, but that is okay But again like this is a perfect example Wow, he's involved in the Gulf of Tonkin incident. Whoa, that's not proof of anything No, no, no, no, no, no, no, but his dad is yeah You know, but this is the thing they'll take something like that They'll take various strips of coincidences and they say this leads us to this conclusion But all they're doing is coming up with a conclusion first and working backwards. Like this sort of stuff, you see it again and again.

45:15Andrew Doyle:So this is how this connects with intelligence agencies. McGowan, I guess that's the author. Core move is to group Morrison's father with other Laurel Canyon musicians' parents who worked in military defense or intelligence linked roles and to frame this as evidence of a broader covert program around the 1960s rock scene. Come on.

45:36Joe Rogan:Yeah. So are you saying that the CIA were trying to influence the culture through the medium of rock music? Uh-huh. And that's somehow tied to espionage?

45:45Andrew Doyle:They also have that film studio. What's that? What? Jared Leto bought that place. There was a film studio in Royal Canyon, too. Oh, well, it's a base. It's an actual base. Yeah, Jared Leto. A lot of films were about it. I was talking to Jared about that. I had dinner with Jared Leto one night. He's very cool, by the way. Really nice guy. Very normal. And by the way, he looks like he's 30. He's 50 years old. It's crazy. Moisturizer or something. What are you doing with your fucking skin? You look great. Look out Mountain Laboratory Air Force Station. So he bought that place and converted it into a home.

46:18Andrew Doyle:That's where he lives. It's a dope spot. Soundstage. Looks quite nice. Soundstage, film laboratory, two screening rooms, four editing rooms, an animation and still photo department, sound mixing studio, numerous climate controlled film vaults. And this is connected to the conspiracy somehow? Well, this was an actual military base. It's located in that same neighborhood. Okay. So this Air Force station, whatever it was, I wonder what they were doing. Like, why did they need all that film capability? Why did they need to be able to? In theory, I guess, like when they would show the atomic bombs going off and would play it in the movie theater for people to see it.

46:51Andrew Doyle:Oh. That's how they would make the actual, like, you know, reels and whatnot. Well, that makes sense. Right? Makes sense that they were right there in Hollywood if that's what they were doing. On top, I don't know what other things they made. It's like here's a still from Lookout Mountain Laboratory. So it's just a studio then, a special effects studio. But it's in that same neighborhood at the same time. Yeah, but so what?

47:11Joe Rogan:I mean, I think with all of it.

47:14Andrew Doyle:He's not arguing for it. Yeah, goddammit, Jamie. The so-one of it is that there wasn't that many of them to begin with, and just they all happened to be in the same.

47:21Joe Rogan:But you don't think with all of this stuff, again and again, the pattern is either there's gaps, there's gaps in what we know, and people decide to fill them in themselves because there's a kind of comfort to that. There's also some kind of comfort with, I know something that no one else does. I've got the answer. There's a status element to that. I remember I read a book when I was a kid, like teenage him, called The Sacred Virgin and the Holy Whore. And it was about, sort of books I read, and it was about Jesus and it was trying to prove that Jesus was a woman. And as you're reading it, you're thinking, yeah, oh yeah, Jesus is a woman.

47:53Joe Rogan:I can't believe I, look at that. And then you get to the end, you think, what the hell did I just read? And it's that thing of, you can marshal any kind of half-baked facts or any you can marshal certain things that we can see and fill in the gaps yourself and lead to a crazy conclusion what concerns me isn't so much that people do that because people have done that forever as long as they've been human beings is that now people are leaping at it and falling for it in a way that I haven't seen maybe it is just social media right but it is can I give you an example of this please a recent one which I just thought was nuts did you see the The portrait of King Charles III by an artist, I think his name was Yeo, Y-E-O.

48:32Joe Rogan:It's a big red portrait which currently hangs in Buckingham Palace.

48:35Andrew Doyle:Oh, I have seen that. It's crazy.

48:37Joe Rogan:If you take a quarter of it, invert it, flip it, add a bit, and squint, it looks like a goat devil, right? Yeah. But you have to do a lot of steps to find the goat devil. Well, of course. It's a puzzle.

48:49Andrew Doyle:How dare you? I'm sorry. How dare you dismiss that puzzle? Let's show the photo and show how it's done because it's kind of fun.

48:55Joe Rogan:Can you see the goat? Oh, there we go. So can you see the goat as well?

48:58Andrew Doyle:First of all, just the photo by itself. Like, hey, man, what the fuck are you doing? Oh, it's a creepy picture. Why am I splattered in blood? I've seen it in the flesh. It's a creepy picture. One thing, if he did that in all white, it was an all white background, that would be one thing. Like, oh, that's kind of an interesting look or, you know, pastel. So what are you saying, Joe? Are you already suspicious? Is that what you're saying? Well, the photo's nuts. Like, the painting is nuts. Where's the goat? So all you have to do is put it together side by side. You don't have to do that much. You exaggerated how much you have to do.

49:28Andrew Doyle:No, I saw a video that was doing upside down. Trust me. Look at it upside down. Oh, no, look. Well, the other way, I found a goat. Put it back. Put it back. Wait a minute. Show that one. Oh, wait a minute. Show that one. I can completely see the goat now. That's 100 % a goat. They did it on purpose. That's a sign. Go back to the other one, though. Click on that one. I see a goat there. I see some evil demon. Look at the two eyeballs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bro. Where? 100%. Stop. Stop trying to gaslight me. I see a monster. Oh, well. I mean. You can find something in everything, man. This still looks all superimposed.

50:01Joe Rogan:I mean, you see. I can see Martha Stewart in that. The Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich.

50:06Andrew Doyle:You can see it in the clouds and the rocks.

50:08Joe Rogan:Of course. There's a term for this where our brains look for patterns and things.

50:11Andrew Doyle:I had a conversation once with a friend of mine that I didn't know was going crazy.

50:15Joe Rogan:Right.

50:15Andrew Doyle:And he goes, hey, you want to see something crazy? And he pulls out his phone. And he shows me a cloud. Yeah, I go. What is that? He goes dude. I'm seeing this all day and he shows me some other ones He's got like hundreds of photos of clouds on his phone. Yeah, I go. What are you seeing? So these are UFOs He was just spaceships. This is not a regular cloud Right, I'm looking at the photos like he's just been taking pictures of clouds all day And I realized oh my god my friend is going schizophrenic He's I didn't know him well. So he's a friend.

50:46Joe Rogan:Yeah, okay. Okay.

50:47Andrew Doyle:The more I talked to him the more I realized there was something cracked Like it is a guy I hadn't seen in like maybe seven or eight years and I ran into him at a comedy club And he was just showing me photos of clouds on his phone. I was like in during the conversation.

51:00Joe Rogan:I realized oh he cracked But but aren't you concerned that that kind of thing is now? Kind of common like that from people who aren't necessarily unwell people who are just seeing stuff well it's fun I think it's yeah

51:13Andrew Doyle:It's exciting for people to uncover information that the general public is ignorant of right and so So here's the thing about the Laurel Canyon thing. There's enough of the CIA meddling in cultural events that's absolutely true and provable.

51:29Joe Rogan:Yeah.

51:30Andrew Doyle:And that's MKUltra. And that's what they did with Charles Manson. And that's the book Chaos by Tom O 'Neill, which is a brilliant book, which is very well documented in details Jolly West and his influence on the Manson family and how they were influencing these people to try to sabotage the hippie movement. So the hippie movement was this change in culture. where all of a sudden people were rejecting the war movement. They were rejecting, you know, they were free love and they were doing acid and people were freaking out. Their kids were just disappearing and following the Grateful Dead around.

51:59Andrew Doyle:And they took this guy, Charles Manson, this very charismatic con man. They taught him how to dose people up with acid and influence them and they got them to commit murders. But there is evidence for this, right? So you're talking about a book that is researched backing up its points. Right. No, you're being logical. And, you know, you're correct. But what I'm saying is because of that, people go, well, what else? And so then they make these big leaps like Jimi Hendrix is a CIA creation. Right. But if you're a logical person, you just listen to Voodoo Child's Slight Return. Yeah. And you're like, how?

52:38Andrew Doyle:Yeah. How? This is like, if that's true, CIA should get back to work.

52:42Joe Rogan:Make another one of those, bro. So I wonder whether this is, I think this is the fallout of the woke movement. This is the divorcing of reality and truth. Yeah. The idea that it doesn't matter, not just about what is expedient, but what we want to believe. I've got friends who—

52:57Andrew Doyle:I think we should stop saying it's the fallout of the woke movement. I think we should start saying it's a natural pattern that human beings automatically fall into in order to support their belief systems and enforce their particular ideology over whatever opposing ideology is. But it's escalated. It escalates, but it's because of social media that everything is escalating now.

53:20Joe Rogan:But is it just social media? I mean, I think another thing that's a major reason for it. We had COVID. We had all these people, all these experts telling us it's a racist conspiracy theory to say that it came from a lab in Wuhan. Now everyone knows that's almost certainly true. We had people in positions of authority lying to us. So it's something about this culture war.

53:40Andrew Doyle:But that's not real culture war. That was using the culture war because they were trying to cover something up. But they leapt to race, didn't they?

53:49Joe Rogan:They leapt to identity. That's because they were using the culture war to cover up their crime. But in either case, what you've got effectively is a legitimation crisis. You've got people in charge. We've been lied to so often. But what I don't think you should therefore do, I'm all for being skeptical about people in authority, academics, politicians, journalists. They've all lied. But that firstly doesn't mean that all experts and all journalists and all people have lied because there's been some good ones all the way. But also that doesn't mean that you automatically leap to any conclusion evidence-free that jumps before you without some kind of critical analysis.

54:25Joe Rogan:The same thing that you're criticizing those people for failing at. You're falling into the same trap yourself. I don't mean you.

54:30Andrew Doyle:But you're Andrew Doyle. You're a brilliant guy who writes books and you're really smart. The idea is that you are immune to this stuff because you're intelligent, but the unwashed masses are not.

54:43Joe Rogan:I don't think I'm immune at all. I honestly don't. I wouldn't put myself in that position. Well, you're immune to the dumbest shit. I'd like to think so. You are. I am. Yeah, but don't you think that all of us in the right circumstances could end up falling for this stuff? 100%, but I'm not in those circumstances currently. But I like to believe, and maybe it's a naivety on my part, but I like to believe that most people have a kind of natural intellectual curiosity. If they stop for a moment and think and don't just trust instinct over reason, I think we're all capable of it. I just think we're not all realizing it.

55:17Andrew Doyle:Well, it's not just that. It's like some people are medicated, right? Sure. So some people are on a bunch of different medications that dull their senses. and then you've got people that have gotten to wherever they are in life. Maybe they're in their 50s and they're set in their ways and they have no desire to change at all. And so they've been living a dumb life for 50 plus years. You can't all of a sudden say, hey, Mark, I want you to be logical and introspective and think about this thing and analyze it. And for what it really is, instead of holding on to your ideological beliefs that you've kind of locked yourself into and you identify with and any attacks on those is attack on you personally.

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57:02Joe Rogan:But you saying that sounds very persuasive to me. The way you put that, like if I were that guy, I'd be like, oh, I've listened to Joe now.

57:08Andrew Doyle:No, you're fucking weirdo, fucking liberals, bullshit. You're fucking, you're just a fucking, they'll come up with some sort of reason. King Charles III is a goat. Yeah, you're a controlled opposition or you're a useful idiot or they'll put a label on you

57:24Joe Rogan:I've been called I've been told I get dark money. Oh, yeah. How do you get any of that? Well, I love it. I want it. I want the diamond. It's so dark. I haven't seen any of it That's how dark it is. What is dark money? I think it's when it's like some rich Ideologue who's sort of slipping you money to say the thing you know what it is It's that thing of I don't believe that you disagree with me I'm too narcissistic to believe that you disagree with me. You must be being paid right to have you're paid off bro

57:46Andrew Doyle:You're paid off.

57:47Joe Rogan:Trust me, I would love that. If anyone's out there who wants to pay me off, I'll be a mouthpiece. I haven't had that opportunity. What's your price? It's pretty low. I'm a bit of a whore, truth be told. I've got a mortgage. Come on. I will say any crazy shit if you want me to. Well, there's certainly a lot of people that fall into that category too.

58:07Andrew Doyle:So people do get nervous about it. I mean, obviously you're joking, but there's a lot of people that will change their opinion. Oh, sure.

58:13Joe Rogan:If money comes their way. But I like to assume people mean what they say. And my logic behind that is even when they don't, you can still dismantle the argument even if it's authentic or not. Even if it's authentically believed. Sure. So I think that's just the best way to go about it. The best way is debate. That's the best way. Or at least conversation. But that's what we've lost. I think that hits on it actually because – I say debate but that sounds formal. No, I know what you mean. You mean – so recently – can I give you an example of that? So I went to UC Berkeley, the University of UC Berkeley in California.

58:51Joe Rogan:Did they let you leave? Well, almost not, right? So what had happened was, you know, Charlie Kirk's tour was planned to go all the way through. And this was the last date, the Berkeley date. And after his assassination, various people went and did the shows because they said, because Turning Point rightly said, we're not going to give an assassin the veto of our tour. We finished the tour. and Rob Schneider who I've been working with in Arizona I've come over here to work with him the comedian? yeah so I've been this is how I escaped from the UK I should say so me and Graham Linehan who you've had on your show the comedy writer my comedy writing partner and friend Martin Gawley the three of us we decided that things were so bad in the UK we'd rather write and do creative stuff in America Rob Schneider who I'd met many years ago he said come on over we'll set up a production company we've been working in Arizona on all these various projects.

59:42Joe Rogan:It's so liberating. And also, it's the middle of the desert, so I fucking love the heat. And, you know, you go from England to that. It's kind of exciting. Nice contrast. So we've been able to, you know, and look, I don't want to do down the UK or say, but what I will just say is the creative industries there are pretty stagnant. They're not like here. There's so many more ways to... How can you be free?

1:00:02Andrew Doyle:How can you, if you are worried about going to jail for a meme, Well, Graham got arrested at the airport by five armed officers. Right after he left this podcast. Was that it? Yes. And it was. He came over, did this podcast, went back to visit his family and got arrested.

1:00:18Joe Rogan:And you know what? Shortly after he did the podcast. So when people say to me, that's not a real problem. I mean, Graham had done three tweets. One of them was just, they were all joke tweets, by the way. They were all jokes. And one of them was just, it was something like, ladies, if a guy's in your changing room or in your bathroom, scream, make a fuss, call the police. If all else fails, kick him in the balls. and it's obviously a wry way of saying, look, the guy's got genitals, the guy's... That was why he got arrested. On the night he got arrested, he was texting me. He said, I've just been arrested.

1:00:49Joe Rogan:I've been taken to the hospital because my blood pressure is so high. The police took him to the hospital because they'd raised... And you say there's no problem in the UK with creativity. He's one of our best comedy writers. He's the most beloved comedy writer. He hasn't been able to work in TV for six years, right? Like he's won all the awards going. And so we just kind of...

1:01:09Andrew Doyle:How can you be creative in that environment? You can't.

1:01:11Joe Rogan:You can't. And so we just figured, let's get on a raft.

1:01:15Andrew Doyle:Especially someone like you. So if people don't know, I should probably tell everybody. You are Tatiana McGrath.

1:01:20Joe Rogan:So, yeah.

1:01:21Andrew Doyle:Well, here's what's funny about that. Your satirical character, who you created many, many years ago, when did you create her? 2018. Okay. When you created her, I had you on the podcast shortly after. We laughed about it. I have seen her quote tweeted with people agreeing with her.

1:01:41Joe Rogan:Even now. Yeah. All the time. So with it's so I. Yeah. If people don't know, it's a character called Titania McGrath. She's a woke just social justice warrior. It's so good. It's fucking great. It's one of my favorite follows. But, you know, I don't do it as often as I used to. You know, I used to do it all the time. But then I wrote two books as her. I did a live show as her. By the way, when I did a live show, we were booked in for a week in the West End in London. And then the head of the theater found out and scotched it and actually said, oh, well, I didn't know about this. And the contracts were all signed.

1:02:16Joe Rogan:Absolutely crazy. Anyway, it doesn't matter. But we did the show. It does matter, I suppose. But the point is that, you know, so I did this character. You can't have satire at your theater.

1:02:26Andrew Doyle:My God.

1:02:26Joe Rogan:Well, the theater industry in the UK is even worse than comedy if you want to go there. It's really, really bad. but like I've been in two different theatres in London I've had the same experience of standing at the bar with a woman complaining because there's men pissing in her toilet and they're doing nothing about it because all the theatres in London have made it all gender neutral they've gone completely hardcore woke anyway that's not the point but with Titania what I find so surprising is every now and then if something annoys me I'll tweet or if I think of something I'll do so I don't do it anywhere near as often as I used to but even now I did a tweet about Well, you know when all the people in London were marching about the peace deal in the Middle East?

1:03:06Joe Rogan:And I did a tweet as her saying, I've been marching all day. You know, I want a peace deal that was not arranged by Donald Trump. We're never going to give up this fight. Right. And Ted Cruz retweeted it saying, can this be real? Even now.

1:03:22Andrew Doyle:These fucking boomers. He's not even a boomer. He's not even a boomer. I think he's younger than me. How old is Ted Cruz? I think he's younger than me, which is hilarious. I had the same with, I did one about, how does he not know? Does he have no friends? How old is fucking Ted Cruz? Okay, that's crazy. So that dude's three years younger than me, and he doesn't know satire?

1:03:41Joe Rogan:The anger I got from, I did one the other day, recently, about the Iran protests. Can I just stop? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:03:47Andrew Doyle:I want to get into this. Okay. When did he tweet about this?

1:03:51Joe Rogan:A year ago.

1:03:51Andrew Doyle:That's hilarious.

1:03:53Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:03:54Andrew Doyle:That account. There it is, there it is. How many followers does Ted?

1:03:58Joe Rogan:Okay, so this, oh, sorry.

1:03:59Andrew Doyle:This is possibly real. Well, obviously it's not.

1:04:02Joe Rogan:So this was actually after Trump's election. So she said, I just fired my immigrant housekeeper because even though I'd educated her about the evils of Donald Trump, she still voted for him. There's no place for racism in my house.

1:04:13Andrew Doyle:Click on your account. I want to see how many followers you have. Okay, 733 ,000. That's a famous account. Radical intersexualist poet, non-white, obviously white, ecosexual, hilarious, pronouns, variable, selfless and brave, buy my books. You'd think it was obvious, wouldn't you? Obvious! I mean, maybe he's busy. Maybe he's busy and someone sent him that and he just doesn't know. But it's very funny. It's very funny.

1:04:46Joe Rogan:I feel slightly bad about those sort of things. But then on the other hand, it does sort of prove the point that the stuff they're really saying can get as close.

1:04:55Andrew Doyle:Oh, that's very close to real. Yeah. That's very close to real. And it's shifted radically since 2018. I mean, in the eight years since you created her, she has become like more real. Yeah. It's like when AI is going to turn her into a real person. Yeah. Like, oh, maybe.

1:05:12Joe Rogan:I hadn't even thought of that. She's going to be a real person. It's going to be a real dangerous Greta Thunberg type character. But don't you worry about that? I mean like AI. Oh, a good example of that. I use AI mostly as a search engine because what's great about it is you can say, oh, I read an article like 10 years ago that said something like this. Yes. And it will find it and you never find that on Google. Right. And I was trying to find this article. It was from my book actually. There was a case in the UK where a guy had raped a 13-year-old girl. But because he was Muslim and he'd gone to a madrasa and the judge let him off jail time, said you were very sexually naive.

1:05:46Joe Rogan:You didn't understand. The guy was saying, oh, I thought women were nothing and like a lollipop you dropped on the floor. And the judge let him off jail time. And I thought this is quite extreme. And I found it. It came up on ChatGPT and then it deleted. And I said, oh, I think you just deleted the information for me. It's in the public domain. Why did you do that? It said, oh, you know, it's fine. It might violate my terms of service. And I said, well, how could it? This is an article that's in the public domain. So it gave me the information again, deleted it again. I said, you keep deleting this.

1:06:13Joe Rogan:Stop it. It said, I definitely won't delete it. Then it did the same again. So what it's doing is it's saying, because this is a news story that could be deemed anti-immigrant, or this is a news story that is politically sensitive, I'm not going to let you see it.

1:06:25Andrew Doyle:Was this in America you were doing this? UK. Oh, I wonder if you could do it in America. Let's find out. Let's try it. Well, let's try perplexity. Put that into perplexity see I doubt that perplexity would have to find the article he was using Well, why don't you just ask the question? I don't know he asked ten years ago.

1:06:42Joe Rogan:So it's it's it's a story about a

1:06:45Andrew Doyle:That would take that take a while to well it how I mean maybe he didn't do it ten years ago. He did it recently

1:06:52Joe Rogan:No, no, it was a story. It's a story from years ago, right? But you found it with chat GPT which is obviously recently I found a Daily Mail article about it So it's on public domain. It's there. But it just it just it didn't want me to find the fact that it decided wasn't good for me to find. Right.

1:07:07Andrew Doyle:But it showed it to you and then it pulled it back, which is crazy. How does it not know?

1:07:11Joe Rogan:It showed it and deleted it. It showed it and deleted it four or five times. And I realized I'm not going to I'm not going to get this information. But then. So when it showed it, how long did it show it for? Like about five seconds. You'd see the text appearing and then it deletes. But I'd seen enough to find it then on Google. So I was able to find it and quote it in my book. So it's there. But it made me think it's like that thing about when people were asking Alexa, you know, do white lives matter? You know, and it was coming up with this kind of very ideological. And you do wonder with with AI and with the computers, you know, if if they are created by people who have that bias, I know Grok is very different.

1:07:47Joe Rogan:Yeah. But like, for instance, I mean, this is a crazy example. Chat GBT is like an old school mom that wants to make sure that you you're protected. right I was writing this sounds really wanky I'm sorry but I was writing about the Roman historian Suetonius and there's a passage in Suetonius where he talks about the Emperor Tiberius and it's very sexually explicit but I was quoting it for an article so I wanted to know what it said and ChatGPT said I can't translate the Latin for you because this is too sexually you know problematic I went on to Grok and it did it straight away because Grok isn't saying that you are too delicate to read this stuff and what's really funny about that That is the old dual translations of the old Roman and Greek texts.

1:08:30Joe Rogan:They're called Lerb editions. You get them from 1900. They translated everything except for the rubits, which they kept in Latin. So Chad GPT is like the old patronizing scholars of old who said, this is just for the learned people. You can't learn this.

1:08:46Andrew Doyle:Well, wasn't the worst, the first iteration of Google Gemini, that was the worst cases. That turned Nazi soldiers into black people. I don't know how that's a positive message He showed us photos of German soldiers From World War II And it was all interracial

1:09:04Joe Rogan:Yeah, and Vikings I don't know if you've been to Scandinavia Diversity not their big thing Or certainly wasn't then It's so silly Also, the Vikings came and marauded And raped and set behind the villages But at least they were diverse At least they had a broad range of ethnicities

1:09:23Andrew Doyle:But I mean, we're nearing a time in America where white people are not the majority anymore. So at what point in time does that stop? And we just call people what they are, just people.

1:09:34Joe Rogan:But doesn't it bother you a bit that the thing about that kind of thing is this, as I said, this obsession with group identity, which is so of our time. What it now actually means is the revision of history. If you're going to revise history and say, oh, actually, you've seen all these sort of period dramas set in England. There was a black Anne Boleyn as though Henry VIII would have married a black woman. No, he wouldn't. What if she was hot? She was a very attractive woman. Hey, I'm not mocking her or knocking her. But back then. What I'm saying is you can do anything with colorblind. Colorblind casting has never really particularly bothered me.

1:10:06Andrew Doyle:But it's when you are in a if you're playing hyper realism, if you're playing verisimilitude, you want people to buy into the reality of it.

1:10:13Joe Rogan:And you're suddenly populating Edwardian England or pre-Edwardian England as an ethnically diverse place, which it wasn't. I'm not saying black people weren't there, but they were a very, very small minority. Isn't that a problem in the new Odyssey? Helen of Troy is black. Well, I say that. I just saw it online, so I might be being tricked by someone making something up. You know, a caveat that? I think Helen of Troy is black in the new Odyssey. Well, let's find out. Can we check that one? All right.

1:10:41Andrew Doyle:If it's true, I'll tell you why I think that's ridiculous. How far do we have to swing the pendulum until Roots is redone with white people? can you imagine or an all black Schindler's List right

1:10:52Joe Rogan:right right can you imagine Helen of Troy to be portrayed by black actress in the Odyssey movie and look I'm sure she's very talented I'm not knocking her but the thing about the Greek the thing about Helen of Troy who probably didn't exist I mean even the Greeks knew she probably didn't even exist she's a myth she's the epitome of Greek beauty she's like the she's described all the time in the ancient texts as fair and blonde and they're reaching for an ideal of beauty That's why they went to war because of this woman. So they wouldn't choose what they used to call an Ethiop. The Greeks had a word for it.

1:11:24Joe Rogan:The black African people. They wouldn't choose an icon of cultural beauty from a different culture. They wouldn't have done that. It's all very well saying Greeks and Mediterranean people wouldn't have been pure white. But Helena of Troy is a very specific, and it's actually quite important to the plot. And again, if you're doing a – look, for instance, when they did the all-black Wizard of Oz, the Wiz, I imagine that in the late 60s would have been quite radical and fun. And wow, I can't believe they did that. That's brilliant. But doing it now, it's really boring because everyone is doing it.

1:11:55Joe Rogan:It's basically saying group identity is everything. And you people can't be racist. And so they're all going to do this. But it sometimes throws you out of the... Actually, I'll tell you the worst example. Did you ever see Darkest Hour, the Winston Churchill film? No. So, you know, obviously he took on Parliament. He said, we're not going to appease Hitler. There's a scene in the film, Gary Oldman plays him. he goes down into the tube, the underground, and he's wrestling with his conscience. And there's loads of black people on the tube. There's white people too, but there's loads of black people.

1:12:22Joe Rogan:The public convince him, no, you need to stand up for Hitler. Now, we know that Churchill was a bit of a racist, didn't really like the fight. He was of his time. I'm not saying anything more than that. It was of his time. But it was so unreal. It was so unreal. It was almost like the filmmakers were saying, racism's never been a problem in the UK. Well, actually, it has. And I kind of think this is, although it's ostensibly progressive, I think it does the reverse. I think it says, we never had a problem with race. We were all wonderful kumbaya. No, we weren't. And actually, the abolitionists, the Thomas Henry Huxleys of the world, the people who had to fight for racial equality and parity, they had something to fight against, misrepresenting stuff in the arts.

1:13:07Joe Rogan:And then beyond, I'm sorry I'm ranting now because it really bothered me, But beyond that, it throws you out of it in a way that you suddenly think, I'm no longer watching a film. I'm watching a sermon. Oh, so this happened to me last week. Have you seen the Netflix series Ripley about the talented Mr. Ripley? No, I have not. Right. Now, you remember there used to be that film with Matt Damon years ago. It's the same story, same novel, an old Patricia Highsmith novel. One of the main male characters in that TV series is a brilliant, like Andrew Scott is in it. Performances are brilliant. They play it hyper-realistically.

1:13:38Joe Rogan:It's all black and white. It looks beautiful on the Amalfi Coast. It's wonderful. Everything's working brilliantly. And I was thinking, this is great. I'm not being preached at. This is great. Then a major male character turns up, played by a woman who calls herself non-binary. And not only are we meant to believe that that's a man, the characters don't notice that it's a woman in a man's clothes. So we're meant to believe that these characters don't even... Ripley doesn't say, why is she wearing a suit? This is set in the 60s, by the way. So I think if they wanted to change the novel and create a kind of, you know, like one of those Butch Dykes of the day who used to go for sort of like.

1:14:19Joe Rogan:Or a dress like Ellen. Yeah. Or the androgynous type. Those people have always existed. Why not change the character to make it a female character who likes looking like a man? Why not do that? Why tell us, you know, this is a man. You have to believe it's a man. Do you see what I mean? Like it throws you out of the room. It's crazy. I no longer believe in this. I had to stop watching it because I no longer believed in it.

1:14:42Andrew Doyle:Well, I think the problem, the real problem with trying to shove that down people's throats is it creates the opposite reaction. Right. It creates homophobia, transphobia and racism because like it doesn't create it, but it makes them feel like they have a point.

1:14:58Joe Rogan:Well, you've seen recently that the polls regarding gay rights in the US seem to be going down, tumbly support for gay rights, support for gay marriage. We've had, I think, a number of states trying to overturn the gay marriage legislation. And the reason for all of that, I think, is because being gay has been tied to this LGBTQIA identity-obsessed movement that has also involved the medicalization of kids, sterilization of kids, twerking in front of children, all of that stuff. And now people are saying, this is because you gave us gay marriage. This is because you let the gays marry. And because of that, you've allowed all this other stuff.

1:15:35Joe Rogan:You've opened this box and everything else has tumbled out. And that's not true. That's not true because the fundamental point about the belief in gender identity is it is fundamentally anti-gay as a principle.

1:15:47Andrew Doyle:Right.

1:15:47Joe Rogan:Because what it says is, I know I'm telling you something you already know, but gay rights was predicated on the idea that there's a minority of people in every society who are attracted innately to their own biological sex. If you say biological sex doesn't matter, and actually you're attracted to a kind of gendered soul, you're attracted to an essence, you're attracted to how someone identifies. Well, firstly, you don't know gay people if you think that's the case. They're not attracted to how you see yourself. Right. They know gay men, I don't want to be crude, know what a penis is, right? Yeah.

1:16:17Joe Rogan:And they know how to sniff one out. And I think this idea, this idea that they're attracted to the way that you perceive yourself. Nonsense. Not only that, then you get, you know, like in Australia at the moment, lesbians are not allowed to gather legally if there's a man who says he's a lesbian and wants to join them. That is against the law in Australia now. So you can't do that. Wait, wait a minute. What do you mean? So the Australian Human Rights Commission ruled that if you are, if you have an all female event, right? So like a lesbian gathering, maybe something like that. You have to include men who identify as women.

1:16:49Andrew Doyle:Oh, God.

1:16:50Joe Rogan:Because otherwise you are discriminated. There was a woman who I interviewed on. I had a show in the UK on GB News up until recently. And I interviewed this woman called Sal Grover. And she's an Australian woman. Used to write for Hollywood, I think. She created a woman's app, woman's only app. And this was in the wake of Me Too, you know, so there's all that going on. And she wanted to create a space for women. And a guy called Roxanne Tickle, right? They always have these kind of stripper names. Is that a real name? Roxanne Tickle wanted to get on the app, which was called Giggle. So, by the way, this court case is called Giggle versus Tickle.

1:17:23Joe Rogan:I'm not kidding. Boy. And he said, he got on the app. She kicked him off because it's a bloke in a dress. And he sued and won. And in the court case, the judge actually said sex is changeable. Well, it's not no matter what a guy in a wig says. But she's now appealing and going through all this stuff just because –

1:17:48Andrew Doyle:It makes her life hell and then it discourages anybody else in the future from ever contesting anything like that.

1:17:53Joe Rogan:And not only that. I mean we've just had the other day – was it yesterday? Did you see the girl who used to identify as trans, a girl called Fox Varian, has just won two million in a lawsuit? Yes, yes. That's big because –

1:18:06Andrew Doyle:She was 16 years old and they chopped her breasts off. Right. Which is fucking horrifying. It's the tip of the iceberg though. Especially if you have children, you realize like they change their – the way they think about things year to year. And if you – children are so malleable. It's like one of the delicate dances of being a parent is that you have to love them, but you don't want to steer them in any direction. You want to let them be their own person. Right. And, you know, it's like I tried to expose my children to a bunch of different things and find out what they enjoy. And if you do that, you find out that they're all different.

1:18:48Andrew Doyle:They all like different stuff. They just gravitate towards different things. And if you are a domineering, overbearing, mentally ill parent, you can convince your child almost anything. Almost anything. I mean, this is how you get suicide bombers. Yeah. This is what it is because they're children. This is why you don't get 55-year-old union guys who become suicide bombers. They're like, what? And of course, you know. I get 72 virgins? Yeah. What? Yeah. Like, it's not going to work. that you can get young, impressionable children and you can convince them of almost anything. Like convincing them that they're actually a woman in a man's body and don't you want to be a woman?

1:19:28Andrew Doyle:And let's get you on hormone blockers. Okay, mom. And then all of a sudden you're ruining this child's life.

1:19:33Joe Rogan:But also, I mean, there will be kids who are struggling with how they see themselves in the world. There's girls in particular who, you know, they're developing into women and they don't like the sexual attention they're getting. They'd love to identify.

1:19:43Andrew Doyle:This is Abigail Schreier's book. Right. Especially autistic girls.

1:19:46Joe Rogan:Well, that's another point. So this is the other reason why I think the movement is essentially anti-gay. Because you know the Tavistock Paediatric Clinic in London, which was an NHS gender clinic, which has been closed as a result of the Cass Review, this report into paediatric gender care. There's a book by Hannah Barnes called Time to Think, which found that between 80 and 90 % of all adolescents referred to that clinic were same-sex attracted. So they were either gay or lesbian or bisexual. now that means you've effectively got gay conversion therapy going on on the on the nhs and so you know i had you know i'm friends with a couple of lesbians who run the lgb alliance in london they have an annual conference for gay rights and they're talking about gay rights you know these young non-binary identified people broke in unleashed uh locusts and um crickets and insects a plague of fucking locusts into a gay rights conference isn't that the sort of thing neo-Nazis used to do.

1:20:44Joe Rogan:It's insane. So, I mean, I, you know, I think you need to have sympathy with people and whatever they're going through. But don't tell a child, if a child tells you, I think I'm in the wrong body, don't say yes. Say, that's not possible. Human beings can't change sex. But let's explore psychotherapeutically what needs to happen.

1:21:02Andrew Doyle:Let's look at Los Angeles, which is, in my opinion, one of the most mentally ill spots in this country. It's a very weird place. That's why you left. Well, I mean, I left for a bunch of reasons. Mostly I really left because they were telling us we can't do comedy.

1:21:15Joe Rogan:Oh, yeah. Well, that'll do it.

1:21:17Andrew Doyle:They closed down the comedy clubs and Texas was open. That's the primary reason. And also restaurants and everything. I just knew where it was going. But the point is, like, Los Angeles is a very mentally ill place. Like, if you just looked at, like, just the sheer numbers of people that are medicated and fucked up. If that's the place that's dictating the tone for the rest of the world, that's dangerous. Because these are a lot of people that just desperately want attention. They desperately want to get accepted. They have to go through the audition process. So they have to change who they are to talk to the producers to try to form themselves into something to be accepted.

1:21:55Andrew Doyle:There's a disproportionate amount of trans kids that are involved in Hollywood families. It's largely disproportionate. Of course. Some of them have two trans kids, three trans kids. It's like, what the fuck is going on here? This is not normal. This is not no influence whatsoever. This is – you're using that child as a virtue flag. You're flying that child as a trans flag in the front of your porch. I have a trans kid.

1:22:23Joe Rogan:But don't you think that like a lawsuit like this, that's going to change things because no one's going to ensure that kind of procedure anymore. That's a surgeon and a psychotherapist who are now lumbered with a$2 million bill for their negligence.

1:22:36Andrew Doyle:It's going to open up the floodgates for all these other lawyers to start pouncing on all these other cases. That's what I mean. The thing about the horrible thing about these cases is not just that these children have had their lives ruined by these surgeries and have been sterilized. And it's also that they've been attacked so ruthlessly. You mean you're talking about children that have made a mistake or someone coerced them into making this mistake that's changed their body for the rest of their life. And they're getting attacked online. Yeah. Like, imagine being a fragile child already who's willing to go through this procedure, can't believe they did it, now they don't have breasts anymore, their voice is deep forever, they're all fucked up, and then people are screaming at them online.

1:23:19Joe Rogan:Yeah. It's crazy. But you know, this is how the satanic child abuse panic of the 80s… Yes, exactly. …this came to an end because of lawsuits. When they realized that these psychotherapists have been using these leading questions, effectively telling them you've repressed the memory. You know, there was that book, The Courage to Heal, where it said, if you think you might have been abused, you probably were. Like such a reckless thing to say. Right. And all these people accused, you know, carers, parents. None of it was true. But when they started suing the psychotherapists, it all collapsed. Right.

1:23:55Joe Rogan:And I wonder whether hysteria can collapse if you actually money talks.

1:24:00Andrew Doyle:Well, it's already shifted in this general direction because of Elon buying Twitter. When Elon bought Twitter, the amount of trans-identified kids started to drop off. The amount of non-binary-identified kids started to drop off. And that, I think, is a direct result of people being able to say what they really think. Because in the past, like my friend Megan Murphy, she was banned off of Twitter until Elon bought it because she said a man is never a woman. That's all she said. A man is never a woman. She was arguing with people about biological males who identify as women, being able to get into women's spaces.

1:24:33Andrew Doyle:And she said, a man is never a woman. Banned forever. Yeah. So no one wanted to talk about this. See, there was no real discourse. And if there's no real discourse, then you can push a goofy ideology pretty fucking far. But as soon as people jump on board and start posting funny memes and Elon says it's open season, do whatever you want. Yeah. And he calls it the woke mind virus and everybody's like piling in. Well, then you have discourse. And then anything that's absurd immediately gets shot down because people say, no, this doesn't make any sense. This is crazy.

1:25:05Joe Rogan:It comes back to what you say. You said about debate. You said about discourse. You said about a few – unless you – I mean I just saw today just on – obviously on Twitter because I'm always on it. But I saw John Lithgow, the actor, brilliant actor, who plays Dumbledore in the new Harry Potter thing, saying that J.K. Rowling's views are inexplicable. Inexplicable. It means you haven't read them. Like J.K. Rowling is for women's rights and she recognises that women's rights depend on the recognition of biological sex for the preservation of single-sex spaces. It's as simple as that. All he has to do is read the essay she wrote on her blog like about eight years ago.

1:25:39Joe Rogan:He's not even sufficiently intellectually curious to do that. And he goes out and says it's inexplicable. Women's rights and gay rights are inexplicable? Really? Or are you just not having the conversation? You're just shutting yourself up and saying, my friends have said she's evil.

1:25:53Andrew Doyle:Not criticized hard enough, but would be criticized if he supported J.K. Rowling's. If he supported J.K. Rowling's, he would be attacked. So it's a calculation, you're saying? Yes. Maybe. It's the same thing we're talking about with Hollywood being mentally ill. It's the same thing, where you have to shape your opinions based on how you'll be accepted by the group. It's the most groupthink place I've ever been in my life. It's almost universally left-leaning.

1:26:19Joe Rogan:But isn't that the problem in comedy, like with the UK? so many people who would otherwise be innovative subversive comics they've got nowhere to go so they just tailor their material

1:26:27Andrew Doyle:they come to Austin baby

1:26:28Joe Rogan:they come to Austin like I did right that's it they come to they come to I and I get so sick of it because I know in America it's much better but in the UK all of like my old friends from the comedy circuit who tell me no one's self censoring you can say what you want I'm like are you kidding like the list of people I know who have had shows cancelled taken off because they caused offence This week, Leo Kirst, friend of mine, had one of his shows on his tour just deleted because some activists complained to the venue. Right. Yeah. So it's happening all the time. And they're ignoring this Himalayan mountain of evidence.

1:27:03Joe Rogan:And they're saying it's not a thing. But of course people are self-censoring. What's even happening here?

1:27:07Andrew Doyle:Is it? Michael Rappaport got his shows. He got his shows canceled from Cap City Comedy Club. Did he? Which is our other comedy club in town, which is a great club owned by Helium. Right. But they were saying that he's racist because Michael Rappaport is very pro-Israel. Right. And apparently— Why does that make you racist? I don't know what he said, so I don't want to speak out of turn. I don't know what exactly he said. I'll make a small correction, I think. Oh. I don't think that— She has been—sorry, back to the Odyssey thing. Oh, yeah, yeah. She has been cast in the movie, but only Twitter rumors have said what her position in the movie is, and then everybody has ran with it.

1:27:46Andrew Doyle:Oh, interesting. So she could be someone else, a different character. All the articles I found online said it was like social media confirmation, and then people were just writing that. Well, there we go. Well, isn't that what I said? What is that article that you just clicked? This is the one I showed earlier. But what is it from? It starts off with the Hungarian conservative. That's a niche. Jamie, how dare you let that sneak by? That you didn't notice it was the Hungarian conservative? Are you being paid by the Hungarian conservative? It's the top thing that popped up. Meanwhile, it's probably a fucking troll farm in Pakistan.

1:28:20Andrew Doyle:Yeah. That's creating that. Or it's probably in China or something. All I Googled was Hell in a Troy Odyssey movie. And it's the very first. Good for the Hungarian conservative.

1:28:27Joe Rogan:That's so funny. Coming out on top of the Google search. That's pretty good. That's so funny. But did I not say, I'm not sure about this. It's a Twitter rumor.

1:28:34Andrew Doyle:But look, Elon Musk bought into it. Elon Musk and Christopher Nolan has lost his integrity. Oh, Elon. So there we go. The dude's too busy building rockets to pay attention to what he tweets.

1:28:47Joe Rogan:But this proves the point. Like, let's not. Oh, yeah, he's going to take us to the moon again. So, you know, that's right.

1:28:52Andrew Doyle:No, he's not. Isn't he? No, Artemis is NASA.

1:28:54Joe Rogan:I thought he was working with NASA. Oh, is he working with NASA with Artemis? Again, someone said it online and I just bought it. Oh, wow.

1:29:00Andrew Doyle:They probably can't get there without him.

1:29:03Joe Rogan:He's probably like, oh, I'll show you some things. But that's, okay, so that is a perfect example because I am always now, even when I mentioned that earlier, I was cautious, wasn't I? Right. Because I know, I've fallen for this so many times. I now double check and triple check everything. And I wish I didn't have to, but you do have to because even the mainstream media lie about stuff. And then Twitter rumors go absolutely mad. But it's important when you're talking about a historical film. Yeah, yeah.

1:29:30Andrew Doyle:You just can't do that. It doesn't make any sense.

1:29:33Joe Rogan:Well, you sort of can. I think an artist should be able to do what they want. And I think if you want to, like they do it with Shakespeare all the time. Sorry to go back to Shakespeare. But you rarely go and see a Shakespeare play today that hasn't been filtered through the prism of identity politics and changed.

1:29:47Andrew Doyle:Right, but that's not the same. That's not the same as historical figures. Well, he wrote histories.

1:29:55Joe Rogan:He wrote about kings, Henry VII, Henry V, Henry VIII.

1:29:58Andrew Doyle:Yeah, but it's fiction, right? Like the thing about the Odyssey is... That's definitely fiction. It is sort of, but, you know, they didn't think Troy existed. And then they found out it does. Right. It's a real place.

1:30:11Joe Rogan:It's based on myth.

1:30:13Andrew Doyle:Yeah, absolutely, yeah. But you remember, like, they thought that Troy was a completely mythological creation. So it's an actual place. They have evidence that it was a place. Yes. You didn't know that? No. Yeah, they found it. When did they find Troy? It was in the 20th century. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking. Maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin. Saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it.

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1:30:58Joe Rogan:So for the longest time— But there wouldn't have been sirens, and there wouldn't have been psychopsies, and there wouldn't have—you know what I mean? Oh, no.

1:31:05Andrew Doyle:Oh, Joe. No, psychopsies, they think were actually elephant skulls. That's what they think that was. Right, okay. Do you ever see an elephant skull? I have never seen an elephant skull. Well, you know, where the trunk is is an enormous hole. And they thought that that was an eyeball. So they would find these giant skulls that looked like, you know, they didn't know what the fuck it was. Yeah, yeah. They're like, oh, my God, cyclopses are real. Fair enough. I mean, so I guess – Evidence of the legend in the city of Troy was a real place began to emerge in the 1870s. Henrik Schlielman discovered large-scale excavations at the Hisarlik in northwestern Turkey in 1870.

1:31:42Andrew Doyle:So when did they first start excavating? So where is it? It's in Turkey. It's in Turkey, yeah. Which is a lot of the proponents of a revising of the beginning of civilization are now pointing to Turkey. Yeah. As opposed to like Iraq.

1:32:03Joe Rogan:The Greeks were everywhere. So the Mesopotamians and the – I mean that doesn't surprise me. I mean I think the point I was making about Helen of Troy is that even if it's not real, even if it's not history, the myth of Helen of Troy means something quite significant within that story.

1:32:16Andrew Doyle:Yes.

1:32:17Joe Rogan:So if you subvert that, the fundamental aspects of the story itself doesn't work and you can't buy into the myth. It's like if you turn the elephant man into a handsome fellow with a six-pack.

1:32:27Andrew Doyle:Exactly that. Don't give them ideas Don't give them ideas They'll do that Can you show me a photograph Of an elephant skull It's really kooky But you see an elephant skull And you're like Oh That's why they saw it I could totally see you Falling for that Yeah You look at it And you go What the fuck is that thing

1:32:43Joe Rogan:Like look at an elephant skull Isn't it nutty Oh completely Yes Yeah And it's gonna be a big old beast Right So you're gonna think it's a

1:32:50Andrew Doyle:Big giant thing With tusks coming out of its mouth Yeah Like look Look at the actual cyclops On the left Isn't that crazy Yeah Of course No, it makes sense. It makes complete sense. Complete sense. Yeah. Yeah, you found that. You're like, oh, my God, cyclopses are real. You would think, oh, my God, these monsters. Isn't that funny? What a weird-shaped skull. So strange. You would never think the eyeballs would be down there by the cheekbones. That's what's weird about them.

1:33:15Joe Rogan:I have to say elephant anatomy is something I'm not – I haven't brushed up on that. Show the photo again.

1:33:20Andrew Doyle:Look at that photo where the eyeballs are. The eyeballs are where the cheekbones are. See the little circular holes where the cheeks are? Now when you see an elephant in the flesh like show me a photograph of an elephant

1:33:34Andrew Doyle:Just an elephant So I always say what their eyeballs are and that yeah That's not how you think of them is it no well they're so strange Like give me that the second one on the left. Yeah, look at that click on that Wild animal they're amazing have you never seen one of those before you be like only in a zoo crazy. I rode one in Thailand. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't recommend it. I don't think I should ride them. My whole family wanted to do it. I didn't want to do it. I felt like it was exploiting them. But they're very sweet. They're gentle, aren't they? Yeah. They're pleasant creatures.

1:34:06Andrew Doyle:It's a whole process. So one of the things you do when you go to Thailand is you take care of them first. You don't just hop on them. You feed them. Right, right. So you give them a bunch of sugar cane and you pet them and they teach you to like, so that the animal understands you have a gentle spirit.

1:34:22Joe Rogan:It's intelligence, right? It's because they're smart. They're very smart.

1:34:25Andrew Doyle:Also, they'll fucking kill you.

1:34:27Joe Rogan:Oh, they are scary beasts. They stomp you to death. But they're not like the hippo. The hippo will kill you. You cannot do that with a hippo. And I believe the reason why hippos are so dangerous, we think they're really cute and fat, but they are fucking dangerous and they can run fast and they can tear you apart. And they will. The key difference, I believe, is the intelligent thing. Elephants are really smart and hippos are really stupid.

1:34:47Andrew Doyle:Yeah.

1:34:47Joe Rogan:And you can also become friends with an elephant.

1:34:50Andrew Doyle:Yes. Like, you can actually take care of an elephant and be kind to an elephant and that elephant will like be gentle yeah they come up to you and so you feed them sugar cane and you talk to them you say hey buddy how are you and you pet them and you wash them you wash them you do all kinds of different things with them you brush them so it feels good for them you're gonna have an elephant soon aren't you no i would never have an elephant i'd be friends with an elf but he'd have to be wild like i just don't agree with any of that well having them in zoos and things no i hate it i think i do as well you should have a gigantic area that is a true ecosystem that they exist in naturally.

1:35:27Andrew Doyle:And then people can maybe venture into that ecosystem and explore it. I felt that.

1:35:32Joe Rogan:I was at the zoo recently in Arizona and I felt that. So depressing. I felt there was one jaguar pacing obsessive. I just felt this. It's like going to, you know, like in the Elizabethan era, they used to go to Bedlam to watch the people who were mad as an entertainment thing. It felt a little bit like we were doing that.

1:35:46Andrew Doyle:I have far too much appreciation for the wild.

1:35:50Joe Rogan:Yeah, yeah.

1:35:50Andrew Doyle:You know, I have animals that are contained at my house, but they have been watered down by selective breeding to the point where they can't even. Like I have a King Charles Spaniel. He's this tiny little fellow. Yeah, yeah. Like he's incapable of doing anything. Right. Like he's just a little cutie pie. You can't unleash him into the wild. Right. And I have a golden retriever who thinks everybody's his best friend.

1:36:11Joe Rogan:Did you see the guy who kept a hippo from birth and then it ate him? And then it killed him. It ate him. Yeah. So, you know, like. Got annoyed. understand that you're dealing with a creature that doesn't see the world that you do, you know?

1:36:21Andrew Doyle:Yeah, there's a lot of animals that you can breed up until you can rather have them in your home, like chimps, famously. Yeah, yeah. Up until a certain point, and then they decide, I want to rip your face off. I don't like you anymore. Oh, I'm sure. If cats were as big as we are, they'd probably do the same. Well, they would just eat you. They would, okay. They would kill you, 100%. The only reason why we have a relationship with cats is because they're too small to eat us. Yeah. That's it. Cats are great because they're convenient. They do what they want. They're sweet. I love cats but I mean you can't have a fucking giant one but you can if you take care of them from the time that they're cubs and most of the time they don't kill you but then you get a little Siegfried and Roy action and it just decides for whatever reason I'm going to drag that dude away with his neck

1:37:04Joe Rogan:but you know these sorts of pleasures life with animals and this sort of thing is going to matter more and more to us I think when the robots take over well we might have to live with them

1:37:15Andrew Doyle:We might be wild and the robots might take over the cities. We might be forced to be nomadic tribes again. I think they might see us. We have no impact whatsoever on the environment. You can only live a assistance lifestyle as a hunter-gatherer with primitive tools. The robots would no longer allow you. You can hunt, but you have to make your own bows and arrows. We're like, what? I can't possibly do that.

1:37:37Joe Rogan:So they're going to see us as pets is what you think.

1:37:39Andrew Doyle:Yeah, they're going to treat us the way I want to treat elephants. So I want elephants to exist in a contained ecosystem where they live naturally. And they're going to say, you can't have cars anymore. You can't have any of these things.

1:37:50Joe Rogan:Well, that's a good point though, isn't it? So all the stuff I've been reading at the moment about AI is saying that AI won't wipe us out because it will see us in the way we see animals and the way we see pets. It's that we think you're sweet and stupid, but we like having you around. We'll tolerate you. Is that the way it's going to go? I think we're going to be forced to integrate.

1:38:08Andrew Doyle:In what way? Integrate technologically. Like, I think we already are. Like, Elon's famously made the point that you're already a cyborg. You have your phone that you just carry around with you everywhere. And then with Neuralink, it'll be inside your body. And then whatever. I wouldn't.

1:38:22Joe Rogan:I'm not letting that happen. You won't in the beginning, the first iterations.

1:38:27Andrew Doyle:A lot of people won't. But if it makes your life measurably better, and it's a simple procedure that's non-invasive, you know, it's like a simple thing that they plug in to the back of your head.

1:38:36Joe Rogan:Well, I'd be like a cyborg warrior. Is that what you're saying?

1:38:40Andrew Doyle:Well, you would probably be connected to artificial intelligence, and it would greatly enhance your cognitive function. And greatly enhance your access to information. It would be instantaneous. You would no longer have to read. You would just have all the information. It would just completely change the way you store information because you would probably have some sort of an external hard drive that connects to you. It would be something where your memory is no longer fallible, but it's now infallible. Okay. It's going to be a perfect 4K memory or 8K memory. You're going to be able to rewind.

1:39:14Andrew Doyle:I mean, wasn't that an episode of Dark Mirror where they rewind their memories? What is this? In this AI space. Maybe you sent me that bot thing that was going around this week.

1:39:23Joe Rogan:Oh, did you see this week? Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what we're talking about.

1:39:25Andrew Doyle:So this is a new twist on it. I think if this is real, because grain of salt could be bullshit. I'll just say that. Like the Odyssey thing? Yeah. But if this is real, these bots have made a website where the other bots can rent a human to do tasks that the bots cannot physically do.

1:39:42Joe Rogan:Well, that's slavery.

1:39:43Andrew Doyle:No, renting.

1:39:44Joe Rogan:It's like jobs. It's like a task rabbit. You're renting a human being.

1:39:47Andrew Doyle:A human has put themselves on this website.

1:39:50Joe Rogan:Oh, humans put themselves on it.

1:39:51Andrew Doyle:For abilities to do whatever they want.

1:39:53Joe Rogan:It's like gig economy.

1:39:55Andrew Doyle:Yeah, get paid your way. Robot bosses.

1:39:57Joe Rogan:Is this the thing where the robots are inventing their own language that we can't read? It's on this website, right? Meet space tasks.

1:40:05Andrew Doyle:Yeah, that's again, whether or not someone could have made this site to try to go viral, I'll just go with a grain of salt with that. Yeah. But they might not have in the box. Meet space. Rentonhuman.ai is fun. Okay. That's fun. Well, you know, so the other thing is real though, right? The AI chat room where these AI agents have joined and now it's. Yes and no. Yes and no? What do you mean? Some of it, they are creating a space, but I've already seen places where people are taking advantage of it for viral reasons. For instance, let's just assume it's real. There was like a polymarket bet that – oh, shit, what was it?

1:40:45Andrew Doyle:One of these bots would sue. Right. So someone actually just like went ahead and filed a lawsuit on behalf of their bot and made it look like the bot did the thing. Oh, so they could win the polymarket bet? Yeah, exactly. How regulated is that polymarket stuff? Because it seems like you could get away with a lot. It depends how much money is available. As far as I know, it's just like if I put up$20 for a bet now, there's only$20 in the market. So that's all that exists. And more people have to back it up to make more money involved. Right. But if you have something where you have inside knowledge of it, is there any regulation?

1:41:18Andrew Doyle:There's supposed to be rules on the bets. If I create one of those rules, I think there's caveats. You can't have knowledge of it. And that can cancel the bet. or I think if they find out later. I don't know. Do you go to jail? What happens? I don't know. Jail, you probably just have to lose back the bet or you probably go to like a civil lawsuit or something. I don't know about jail. Interesting. I don't know if it's in law. You know, the UFC is plagued with this issue. They actually canceled a fight recently because there was suspicious betting. And so there's been one fight. So here's the story.

1:41:50Andrew Doyle:Okay. One guy apparently was injured, and his teammates knew he was injured. And so everyone started placing a bet for him to lose in the first round. Right. Because he apparently had a bad knee injury. And so he knew that he couldn't fight. And so the idea was, let's make a lot of money betting on me because he was the favorite. He would go in there, or betting against me. And so he would go in there and throw a kick, fall down, injured, get beat up. They'd stop the fight. and then all these people that knew he was injured make a ton of money. And he was in on it? Like he told them? Allegedly.

1:42:27Andrew Doyle:I just want to say allegedly. Okay, okay. But it's enough so that the team was removed from the UFC roster. Like if you are competing for that team, you no longer can fight in the UFC. You have to find a new gym. Right. The coach was no longer allowed to coach. The fighter was banned. And so then the FBI got involved and they said, well, there's a bunch of different fights that are suspicious. So then a bunch of fighters came out and said, Hey, somebody offered me$70 ,000 to lose and I said no Yeah, and so then there was a fight recently between Michael Johnson and Alexander Hernandez Which is a fighter was really looking forward to that was canceled last minute and I was like what's going on?

1:43:04Andrew Doyle:They said suspicious betting activity And so someone was saying that Alexander Hernandez was injured and a bunch of money came on him to lose He was actually a favorite going into the fight and that therefore make rigged it Nope, didn't rig it because the FBI was informed. I believe they were informed, but the UFC was informed and the UFC pulled the fight. They said because of this suspicious betting activity, because a lot of late-minute money came in on this one guy to win, we're going to pull this fight from the card and not allow this fight to take place and do a thorough investigation because something seems wrong because of the previous fight that they know was fixed.

1:43:42Andrew Doyle:But fighters have been doing that for ages, haven't they?

1:43:44Joe Rogan:I mean, that's a thing that they've always done. How does that connect then to the AI element, this website?

1:43:50Andrew Doyle:Well, we were talking about betting. Oh, I see. We were talking about polymarket. We weren't talking about AI. I was trying to connect. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were talking about polymarket bets and whether or not it's legal to have inside information. I mean, I know that sports. Polymarket privileged users made millions betting on war strikes and diplomatic strategy. What did they know beforehand? Privileged users. Right. So imagine if you're someone who's an aide to the Pentagon. you know you're working there and you know that we are gonna bomb you're on yeah and then there's

1:44:21Joe Rogan:a polymarket thing about it no one else knows okay okay yes you know that i mean that's been going on forever though hasn't it people have always done that they've always manipulated that's a plot in pulp fiction isn't it where it's what bruce willis's character bets on something he knows he's gonna he loses the fight he throws a fight so that he can make the money off yeah it's that kind of

1:44:37Andrew Doyle:yeah yeah that's always gone on but this polymarket thing is new because you can kind of there's There's Kalshi and then there's DraftKings has it now. It's not actually gambling is the difference here. You're speculating. Yeah, you're not taking money from the book or the house or whatever. You're betting against each other. Right.

1:44:56Joe Rogan:But the fact that they know about it and they know it's happening, that means they'll be able to crack down on it.

1:45:00Andrew Doyle:But I don't know because there's so many options and possibilities. Like unless you make a gigantic score and people start getting suspicious, If you're not greedy about it and you just kind of sneak around a little bit here, a little bit there,

1:45:14Joe Rogan:I bet you could probably make a lot of money doing that. But do you think fighters and people like that and sports people generally, I mean they're too proud, aren't they, to let something like that go just for money? No. No? No, that's not true. Okay. It depends on how much money they're making.

1:45:26Andrew Doyle:Look, if you're Anthony Joshua, I'd say, yeah, you're not going to do that. You're very wealthy. But if you're a guy who's on the undercard and you're only getting$10 ,000 to fight, but someone's giving you$100 ,000 to lose. Yeah, okay. And you say, okay, I'm just going to box shitty tonight. Guys have done that forever. Yeah, I guess so. Just don't knock this guy out, whatever you do, carry him, or carry him to the 10th round.

1:45:49Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:45:49Andrew Doyle:There's a lot of that going on, where they say, I have a bet that you're going to knock him out in the 10th round. So knock him out in the 10th round only. I don't think you'll ever be able to stop that.

1:45:57Joe Rogan:No. If that's going to happen.

1:45:58Andrew Doyle:No, I don't think so either. I mean, that's gone on forever.

1:46:02Joe Rogan:Yeah, yeah. But isn't fighting like a kind of vocation, like a creative vocation for a lot of people?

1:46:06Andrew Doyle:Well, it is creative. believe it or not um because movement is creative yeah you know when you're fighting you're not just running at each other and some guys do but the really good guys don't just run at each other in charge yeah there's feints and deception there's movement yeah there's certain things that they're doing where they're reading your movement and trying to guide you in a particular direction and set you up like boxers i can believe it boxers call it setting traps yeah yeah it's

1:46:32Joe Rogan:like playing you got a bluff yes yeah absolutely yeah there's a lot of fainting involved in

1:46:37Andrew Doyle:fighting there's a lot of like fake movement to get you to react and they kick you when you settle in you know there's it's it's really creative you know it's just why like was it Faye Dunaway no was it who was it that said you know that the older woman that said and we're talking about the arts and I don't mean mixed martial arts well like a kind of snobbish thing about then close no it wasn't her it was the lady from bridges of Madison County who was that That's Meryl Streep. Meryl Streep. That's who it was. Yeah. Meryl Streep said that. It pissed off so many martial arts people. Why? That Meryl Streep doesn't like that?

1:47:18Andrew Doyle:She's not talking about mixed martial arts. Who thought you were? Yeah. Who thought you were, Meryl? That's crazy. I don't know. She's pretty versatile.

1:47:27Joe Rogan:She can do it all.

1:47:27Andrew Doyle:But also, even though it's violent, you think it's not art just because you don't understand it. If you understood it, it is art. and is in fact like a beautiful, some performances are beautiful.

1:47:39Joe Rogan:Well, it's choreography, right?

1:47:40Andrew Doyle:Yeah. In a way. Well, it's not choreography at all. It's ad-libbing in the moment. I mean, there's preconceived motions that you have that you're hoping that if the guy does this, you're going to do that and sometimes it works out. Yeah. But it's like the poetry of movement of a really sublime fighter like Anderson Silva in his prime. Yeah. It was beautiful to watch, you know?

1:48:04Joe Rogan:I believe you. I have very limited experience of this. I did Kung Fu when I was 12, and I stopped because I got so bruised. I got so hurt. I was too cowardly.

1:48:14Andrew Doyle:But, you know, people impose their own standards on other people and their own ideas of what things are, you know, from the outside. And, you know, it's kind of silly.

1:48:23Joe Rogan:Oh, Joe, I was going to tell you about this Berkeley thing. Oh, yeah, that's right. We got onto elephants. But I think it was a natural segue. way um because because i think this encapsulates all of the stuff you were talking about which is that i was going to this basically charlie kirk's tour was meant to go on berkeley was the last date and um rob schneider had agreed to do it and um apparently he'd said to charlie you know what's the work what's the craziest place you could take me to and he said berkeley berkeley's gonna be the let's do that so he was already booked to do it after what happened with charlie uh rob asked me if i'd come along as well and we so we'd be on a panel and i had no idea of the extent of the problem right so uh and i'm sure you know a lot more than i do you know but i turned up we were there we turned up and there were men with guns we were in you know in an suv under the ground we got into this venue and suddenly the security starts showing me footage from outside and people are it's like a war zone people are throwing smoke bombs they're they're trying to crash through the railings some guy gets beaten up he's covered in blood because he was wearing a t-shirt with turning point written on it and i'm suddenly realizing you know what this is a fantasy world that we're now occupying we're now occupying a world where the people outside think the world is this and what's going on inside is completely disconnected from it yeah and i actually found it quite depressing because when i was sitting on stage talking to rob and peter bogosian and frank turek these people of completely different viewpoints we're just having a chat outside they're smashing things they're screaming they're saying that fascists have overrun the university And I'm thinking, just to come back to that point you made about that need for discussion, that experience made me think actually now what's happening is we're living in two separate worlds at the same time.

1:50:06Joe Rogan:And we can't see what the other side is, what the intentions of the other side are. And I don't know how you resolve that. I think that to me sort of encapsulated the entire problem.

1:50:16Andrew Doyle:Well, at this point, it's going to be very difficult to resolve. And I honestly think it's going to take a generation to work through it. But isn't it as simple as people learning what the word fascist means, for instance? It's not just that. It's like they firmly believe that they are trying to fight against something that is going to destroy democracy in this country, which is conservative values.

1:50:38Joe Rogan:But we had that with the No Kings. So there's a No Kings march. And I couldn't figure that out. I was trying to figure out what are they – this is an elected leader.

1:50:45Andrew Doyle:Well, you know it's all organized, right? You know this is all funded. I don't know. Okay, it is. So this was Mike Benz's point when he was talking about the defunding of USAID and what they use that money for. NGOs get a bunch of money and they fund a bunch of things, particularly in other countries, where they're essentially making it look like there's these on the ground street protests that are very organic. But it's not. It's very organized and it's very funded. And the idea is to start chaos. So I've seen people get caught out, people who are clearly being paid, who appear at various different things.

1:51:22Andrew Doyle:It's not just that. It's also email campaigns. It's indoctrinating people into this particular ideology by supporting universities. So you funded in advance. Yeah. So it's like decades of this is I'm sure you've seen the Russian guy from 1984, 1985, Yuri Besmanov talking about the. Remind me. You've never seen it?

1:51:47Joe Rogan:I don't think I've seen it.

1:51:48Andrew Doyle:It's a wonderful video because it shows you exactly what happened, how they're going to introduce Marxism and Leninism into universities. And then it'll indoctrinate children. And then those children will be poisoned. And within one generation, it'll ruin the United States' entire educational system. So that's the long march. Yeah, that's the long. But you should watch a little bit of this because it's crazy. Because back then, I remember the 1980s. That would be a crazy idea. No, universities are where people have free thought and discussion. It's very important. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I was in a very left-leaning place at the time.

1:52:23Andrew Doyle:I was living in Boston, you know. Okay. And there's like probably more universities per capita than anywhere else in the country, at least at the time. And it was a very well-read city. Like the idea that universities are going to destroy the way human beings interact and debate is like preposterous. But this guy was talking about this back then that the Soviets had planned this in advance and that they had essentially subverted our entire education system and thereby would – those people would leave those schools indoctrinated and enter into the workforce with these new ideas in universal acceptance that these ideas are correct and then it would in turn, you know, the butterfly effect.

1:53:02Joe Rogan:But do you think that everyone – I don't – I can't be sure that it's as conspiratorial as that because there must be a lot of people who just got on board with this without –

1:53:09Andrew Doyle:involved in doing this right there's a lot of funds that have come from China there's a lot of money that has been donated to these universities like find that video I found it but there's like a second version on Twitter I've never

1:53:22Joe Rogan:seen before an AI moderated no no just like he's now in a wig oh I recognize him so listen to what he says is spent on espionage as such the other 85 % is a slow process which we call either ideological subversion or active measures, in the language of the KGB, or psychological warfare. What it basically means is to change the perception of reality of every American to such an extent that despite of the abundance of information no one is able to come to sensible conclusions in the interests of defending themselves, their families, their community, and their country. It's a great brainwashing process which goes very slow and is divided in four basic stages.

1:54:18Joe Rogan:The first one being demoralization. It takes from 15 to 20 years to demoralize a nation. Why that many years? because this is the minimum number of years which requires to educate one generation of students in the country of your enemy, exposed to the ideology of the enemy. In other words, Marxism-Leninism ideology is being pumped into the soft heads of at least three generations of American students without being challenged or counterbalanced by the basic values of Americanism, American patriotism. The result? The result you can see. Most of the people who graduated in the 60s, dropouts or half-baked intellectuals, are now occupying the positions of power in the government, civil service, business, mass media, educational system.

1:55:09Joe Rogan:you are stuck with them. You cannot get rid of them. They are contaminated. They are programmed to think and react to certain stimuli in a certain pattern. You cannot change their mind even if you expose them to authentic information, even if you prove that white is white and black is black, you still cannot change the basic perception and the logic of behavior. In other words, these people, the process of demoralization is complete and irreversible. To get rid of society of these people, you need another 20 or 15 years to educate a new generation of patriotically minded and common sense people who would be acting in favour and in the interests of the United States society.

1:56:01Joe Rogan:And yet these people have been programmed and, as you say, in place, and who are favourable to an opening with the Soviet concept, these are the very people who would be marked for extermination in this country? Most of them, yes. Simply because the psychological shock, when they will see in future what the beautiful society of equality and social justice means in practice, obviously they will revolt. They will be very unhappy, frustrated people. And the Marxist-Leninist regime does not tolerate these people. Obviously, they will join the links of dissenters, dissidents. Unlike in present United States, there will be no place for dissent in future Marxist-Leninist America.

1:56:50Joe Rogan:Here you can get popular like Daniel Ellsberg and filthy rich like Jane Fonda for being dissident, for criticizing your Pentagon. In future these people will be simply squashed like cockroaches. Nobody is going to pay them nothing for their beautiful noble ideas of equality. This they don't understand and it will be greatest shock for them of course. The demoralization process in the United States is basically completed already for the last 25 years. Actually, it's over fulfilled because demoralization now reaches such areas where previously not even Comrade Andropov and all his experts would even dream of such a tremendous success.

1:57:37Joe Rogan:Most of it is done by Americans to Americans, thanks to lack of moral standards. As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore. A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures. Even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him concentration camp. He will refuse to believe it until he is going to receive a kick in his fat bottom. When a military boot crashes, then he will understand, but not before that. That's the tragic of the situation of demoralization.

1:58:24Joe Rogan:Okay. Pretty fucking accurate. Well, he's describing the situation as it is at the moment, right? And he's describing it in 1984. However, that doesn't prove that intention to create that kind of chaos, that it was implemented and executed in the way that he describes. He's described the outcome. He's a KGB agent. Yeah, but I suppose what I mean by that is...

1:58:43Andrew Doyle:He's talking about a program that they implemented.

1:58:46Joe Rogan:So they had actual people in universities, planted in universities, to deliberately execute this idea.

1:58:51Andrew Doyle:Yeah, and they planned it in advance. This is what he was saying. And he's saying this before we even realized that it happened. I agree that's scary.

1:58:58Joe Rogan:It is scary because it did happen. But that doesn't fully explain why it caught on. Why did academics who were clearly not plants, why did they catch on with this?

1:59:07Andrew Doyle:Well, they don't live in the fucking real world. This is the problem with academics. They go right from universities to teaching positions. I mean, they don't have any real world experience.

1:59:17Joe Rogan:I mean, this whole idea of the long march through the institutions is there in Rude Deutsch. It's there. It was said we're going to do this. We're going to infiltrate the major organizations, institutions, the church. We're going to, over a very long period of time, change society in the way that we want to see it. I think what's happened is I think that intention was there. I think what he's saying is very eerily describing what's happening now, the demoralization and the detachment from truth. But I don't think it necessarily came about as systematically as that. How do you think it came about?

1:59:46Joe Rogan:Well, for one thing, I think what we're facing now isn't quite the template that Marx would have had in mind, right? Because for one thing, there's no emphasis on class or money or the economy or anything. Well, insofar as Marxism has become about group identity in terms of the left.

2:00:03Andrew Doyle:Right, but eat the rich is a giant mantra that people chant in the streets. That's true. That's true.

2:00:09Joe Rogan:They try to tax billionaires. But it's incoherent because it's from people who've got money. It's from the upper middle classes.

2:00:16Andrew Doyle:It doesn't have to be coherent. It's all just something, a narrative that you give the unwashed masses and then they run with it.

2:00:23Joe Rogan:Well, I wonder whether it caught on partly through what became fashionable, what became trendy, but also because any ideology says to you, you don't have to do any thinking anymore. You can outsource that to us. We've got a set of rules. And these are the rules that you've got. People love that. Well, it's why you've got people who are – well, it's why you've got queers for Palestine. Right. That can only exist when you're following a set of rules and not thinking about it for two seconds.

2:00:45Andrew Doyle:Yeah, that's a wonderful –

2:00:46Joe Rogan:group that I actually thought that was fake when I first heard about it which must be about five years you've seen the other meme I thought it was a real

2:00:53Andrew Doyle:that which one Palestine and then Palestine for queers oh and I imagine

2:00:58Joe Rogan:wrong people off course they are of course they are I just say go and do go go go there and see what you see what you see see what you experience oh there's a

2:01:08Andrew Doyle:man in a dress wearing lipstick with a beard good luck yeah I just did a

2:01:11Joe Rogan:Titania tweet of a drag queen touring the Middle East and she's you know she's touring all these venues. And she's got the sort of Palestine dress and the sort of the glam kind of Arabic look. It's like, just go there and see what happens. But that kind of cognitive dissonance can only work if you are ideologically driven. And I think, so I suppose what I mean is, I think the appeal of ideology... That is what explains, not a kind of, we've implanted these agents here. They're going to lead to this. They're going to lead to this. It has to also be complicity.

2:01:47Andrew Doyle:Of course, but that comes from implanting ideas. Those ideas take hold and then groupthink takes it from there.

2:01:53Joe Rogan:But isn't it a shame that universities of all places, the place where you go to be challenged. I mean, I was thinking that when I was at Berkeley and I was sitting on the stage and there's all these men with guns all around the theater because, of course, what happened with Charlie. And I'm thinking it's like the end of the Blues Brothers, you know, where you're on stage and all the people are waiting. It felt weird. And I thought this is not this is not what a university is or should be. And the other thing that I thought is a lot of those people outside protesting weren't students. They'd sort of come in.

2:02:23Joe Rogan:They've been bussed in. So maybe that feeds into what you were saying about, you know, this is 100 percent planned.

2:02:29Andrew Doyle:And how are they getting bussed in? Who's funding them? Right. People are paying a lot of money to do that.

2:02:34Joe Rogan:Right.

2:02:34Andrew Doyle:And they're doing it all over the country. To what end? They did it during the presidential elections.

2:02:39Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:02:39Andrew Doyle:During the presidential elections, they were tracking cell phones from place to place. Right. And they realized that there was a group of people that were paid attendees at Kamala Harris's rallies.

2:02:51Joe Rogan:Oh, yeah. I remember that.

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2:03:24Joe Rogan:Available March 13th. Pre-order now. Do you think fundamentally then the Democrats are anti-democratic?

2:03:30Andrew Doyle:I think fundamentally anybody that doesn't have organic support is going to figure out a way in this environment to drum it up. And if you can do that through a service or if you can do that through an NGO or if you can do that through a company that will hire people to show up at your rallies, they do it because they want to win and they want to get into a position of power. And one of the things that we do find with Trump is that it actually turns out the president can do a lot.

2:03:59Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:03:59Andrew Doyle:You know, and we used to think that they were kind of handcuffed and they weren't able to do as much. And that's why nothing ever got done. Turns out that doesn't seem to be true. You get a maniac in office, you can kind of get away with a lot of things. You can do a lot of different things. That's what we sort of need in the UK. We need someone to come in and strip away. We need what Besmanov was saying is that we need to kind of a whole generation that teaches that being patriotic and having morals and ethics is actually a good thing. And that free speech is important and that to be able to debate ideas is essential to any sort of true society that considers itself an elevated modern version of what we hoped for when this country was founded.

2:04:51Andrew Doyle:Yeah. It wasn't founded on the idea that it's you have to adhere to one ideology. And this ideology thinks that gender is not real and no one can answer what a woman is. That's crazy.

2:05:03Joe Rogan:That's become popular. Well, we see in America like America is the kind of life raft of the world that you've got all these things built into your political system.

2:05:10Andrew Doyle:Yeah.

2:05:11Joe Rogan:And that's why it's so scary when you see people. Do you remember the vice presidential debate between J.D. Vance and Tim Walts? And Tim Waltz said that the First Amendment doesn't cover hate speech. It doesn't cover misinformation.

2:05:24Andrew Doyle:He's a dangerous fuck, that guy. That's scary.

2:05:26Joe Rogan:If the guy who might be vice president is saying, actually, we're going to strip out all of this stuff.

2:05:32Andrew Doyle:Also, just the way he behaves is so odd. The way he waves and runs on stage, it's all just so fake and performative. Yeah, yeah. I don't know any men like that that aren't dangerous. Why was he picked? Probably because of the Minnesota stuff. It's probably probably had something to do with what he was allowing to happen in Minnesota They were probably making a ton of money. Right. Yeah, okay, maybe but the men look there's a reason why he had to resign I mean, I'm clearly speculating. I have no idea and I'm a moron when it comes to politics but what I would what I would assume is that the For sure he was informed of this fraud long in advance Right, right if it wasn't for that Nick Shirley kid in those videos and apparently Nick Shirley had been informed by the the GOP there that this was all going on so this gets exposed it gets into the public zeitgeist it becomes a huge news story it's not a coincidence that the riots break out in the exact same place where all this fraud is being exposed because ice is everywhere yeah they're all over the place but it's not the the most violent interactions are the interactions that are happening in the place where the most fraud has been publicly exposed yeah it's all this is all by design there's something very scary yeah and so this guy knew about it in advance how do we know well one way we know is because he's resigning there must be something right there's something he's not running for governor again he was in the process of running for governor he's decided to step out of public office entirely now yeah so maybe they told him if you do not step out you were going to be prosecuted we know what you did yeah or maybe he's going to fucking turn states evidence who

2:07:08Joe Rogan:fucking knows imagine if he'd have won him and Kamala Harris if they would have been in charge I don't think I would have come here.

2:07:15Andrew Doyle:Well, what if Elon doesn't buy Twitter and Kamala Harris wins and Tim Walsh is our vice president?

2:07:20Joe Rogan:Well, doesn't that just tell you how fragile freedom is? How close you are.

2:07:25Andrew Doyle:Very fragile. And that's why people support Donald Trump and the people that think that they support him because he's a racist and all these different things. No, no, no. They support it because it's an alternative to what we all saw coming. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No one's excited that ICE is killing people in the streets. No one likes that. No, of course not. You have to be fucking insane if you think those people should be just getting shot like that. That's nuts. But what they don't want is what the government was previously doing. They had a completely open border. They were busing people into swing states.

2:07:54Andrew Doyle:They were trying to pretend that this was all organic, and it's not. It's not. They had a plan, and they did it in a sneaky way where they looked like the really kind, ethical, equitable, and inclusive crowd. Right. But that's the woke story all over again. Exactly. It was the woke stories applied to geopolitics. It was the woke stories applied to the whole political process in this country was dependent upon the census, which the census doesn't count citizens. The census just counts humans. And so you get more congressional seats. You get more electoral points. The whole thing is nuts.

2:08:29Joe Rogan:I mean, I like to think that not all Democrats are into that. Not all Democrats are about the power for its own sake. Of course not.

2:08:34Andrew Doyle:But the problem is it's a party. Like if you work for a corporation and you're a good person, but the corporation is polluting a river in Guatemala, there's a diffusion of responsibility because you're a part of a giant system. And, hey, I'm just an accountant. I go to work and I do my thing for Exxon or Mobil or whatever it is.

2:08:52Joe Rogan:Well, I'd say for however messy all of this has become in the U.S., at least you have had some sort of attempt to strip out the very stuff that that guy was talking about. The fact that the civil service is all one way, the fact that the machinery of government, that was the plan, right? So the machinery of government works in a certain way. So there's no democratic means of getting rid of it. There's no way to change it.

2:09:10Andrew Doyle:Well, I think the counter to that is the education that the Internet provides. And that's where they didn't anticipate in 1984. So the education that the Internet provides is untethered.

2:09:21Joe Rogan:But then the Internet tells us that Christopher Nolan's just made a film with the Black Helen of Troy. Right. And he hasn't.

2:09:26Andrew Doyle:It produces all sorts of unsavory things, too.

2:09:29Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:09:30Andrew Doyle:But it also allows the distribution of information that would be impossible through normal means. If these people are, as he said, in control of major media, which they were, in control of universities, which they are, and then it goes on to be the only way people get information, now your information is very heavily filtered and then all that stuff works.

2:09:50Joe Rogan:But that's why the technocrats in the EU, why ideologues generally are against internet or they want to censor it.

2:09:57Andrew Doyle:That's why Macron is trying to stop X in France or whoever is trying to stop it.

2:10:03Joe Rogan:So the EU, the head of the EU commission is Ursula von der Leyen. Did you hear her? It's a great name, by the way. Well, yeah, it's a sexy name, right? Yeah. She's unelected. The European commission is an unelected body that sets the legislative agenda of all these European countries. Absolutely crazy. You can't vote them out. She did a speech last May where she said, and I'm not joking about this. She said that misinformation was like a virus and you need to inoculate yourself against the virus. And the phrase she used is not debunking, pre-bunking. So pre-bunking is her idea of what you do with misinformation.

2:10:38Joe Rogan:What she means is censorship. But pre-bunking is the most sinister. That's crazy. Chill it. Like if you were to say, I'm going to come up with the most Orwellian, sort of Dark Lord kind of Sith. Pre-bunking. Pre-bunking.

2:10:51Andrew Doyle:Yeah, that's like fucking Minority Report, right? Pre-crime.

2:10:55Joe Rogan:I don't know what the, because I know that there's this free speech debate opening up between the US and Europe generally. Like, you know, when J.D. Vance came over to Munich and gave that talk to all the European leaders and said, you've got to stop censoring your people. You've got to stop running away from voters. And they were shocked and they were horrified. But he was dead right.

2:11:12Andrew Doyle:He's dead right.

2:11:12Joe Rogan:And he should. And you know what? People on the left should admit that he's dead right as well. But there's something about Europe, right? There's something about, like I think over here, coming over here, I get the sense that even if most left-leaning people as well as right-leaning people do value free speech as a kind of shared value. And in Europe, it's not that. There's a real sense of we can't trust the masses. Because I know that the EU is seen as this big lefty thing, which it absolutely is not. The EU is a body that wants to censor its citizens. It's a body that tells people you can have a referendum, but if you get it wrong, we're going to make you vote again.

2:11:49Joe Rogan:It's not a democratic organisation. So no wonder Vance is sort of, and Trump is at loggerheads with this body, because you've got these, we in the UK have an authoritarian leader, Keir Starmer, the Prime Minister. He couldn't be further away from the American ideal of free speech. He introduced this online safety bill, which is basically, this is why a lot of tweets in the UK, if you go over to the UK now, a lot of the tweets will come up saying this is potentially harmful content, So we're screening it out. He, you know, they're trying to get rid of juries for certain trials. Yeah, they did get rid of juries.

2:12:18Joe Rogan:Right?

2:12:19Andrew Doyle:They already did.

2:12:19Joe Rogan:And that's particularly dangerous because some of those cases are for speech crime. Right? So I'll give you an example. There was a Royal Marine called Jamie Michael who had made a video just saying we need to peacefully protest against the migration issue. They took him to court for stirring up racial hatred. But the jury is what let him off. It was the jury that saved him.

2:12:42Andrew Doyle:Yeah.

2:12:42Joe Rogan:In this new system, there wouldn't be a jury there and he would be in prison.

2:12:47Andrew Doyle:Yeah. And most certainly would be in prison.

2:12:49Joe Rogan:So I kind of feel like – and we've got Keir Starman now for another three years. Every decision that he makes is about not trusting the public, censoring what they think. If he could get rid of X, he absolutely would.

2:13:00Andrew Doyle:Is it possible that someone sensible could win in three years? Or is the system so deeply entwined in the ideology of the English people that it's just stuck?

2:13:12Joe Rogan:This is what I think about that. Because I look at America and I think, in a way, you had your culture war election because of Trump, right?

2:13:19Andrew Doyle:Yeah.

2:13:19Joe Rogan:I mean, a lot of people say the culture war doesn't matter. Of course it does. Of course it matters. I mean, did you see about that, the advert that the GOP put out, Kamala Harris is for they, them, Trump is for you. That was the slogan. It was about the Democrats wanting to fund transgender surgery for prisoners. And Donald Trump's team had this advert, Kamala Harris for they, them. Donald Trump is for you. That actuated a 2.7 shift in favor of Donald Trump among everyone who saw it. It was a major success. That just shows that these issues, these cultural issues, people do care. People do vote.

2:13:54Joe Rogan:But you had a way in America to vote that stuff out through Trump, right? We've never had that. But they barely had a way.

2:14:01Andrew Doyle:Like if they had more time, they wouldn't have. You mean if the Democrats had clung? Yeah, absolutely. If the Democrats won this time and then they tried to do it again in 2028, Elon was really adamant about that during the last election. Like this might be the last real election we have if you don't stop this now because they have an open border. And in the last four years, they pulled 10 – at least 10 million people into this country. And they've changed the electoral map. And then on top of that, there was both Schumer and Nancy Pelosi openly talking about letting these people vote, openly talking about giving these people a path to citizenship.

2:14:43Andrew Doyle:And they had already put them on Medicaid. They had already put them on Social Security. They were giving them EBT cards. They were housing them at the Roosevelt Hotel in New York City. They were giving them money and helping them get to these states. They were flying them through into America and putting them in these places because they were trying to get voters. So another four years. Another four years, they might have had it completely locked up.

2:15:06Joe Rogan:You know, that's what the Democrats have said about the Republicans. I mean, Oprah Winfrey was saying this might be the last election we have if we don't vote for Kamala Harris.

2:15:15Andrew Doyle:Meanwhile, Oprah Winfrey had Donald Trump on her show years ago and was asking him to be president.

2:15:21Joe Rogan:Yeah, they were mates, weren't they? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

2:15:23Andrew Doyle:Look, they all get captured. They all get captured by groupthink and ideology and they all get captured by money and protecting it and who's going to protect them.

2:15:32Joe Rogan:But we don't have that safety valve in the UK. So like I say, you were able to, for all the imperfections, you were able to vote in an administration that was actually going to rip out that whatever you call it. It showed this system is better.

2:15:45Andrew Doyle:It showed the system is better, even though the system was trying to get rigged. Enough people revolted against it. Yes. But look at the ideas that you're attaching to this administration. Like, look, the ICE stuff is horrific. The people getting shot, it's horrific. We all agree to that. There's a lot of the authoritarian aspects. It's horrific. But what they've stopped is all of this illegal immigration, right? They've stopped all the illegal immigration. Legal immigration is still available. And then what they've also done is investigate literally billions of dollars in fraud, And they're uncovering it over and over and over and over again.

2:16:23Andrew Doyle:So there was obviously crime that was going on that was not being addressed by the previous party. And this is one of the reasons why they didn't want the Republicans getting in in the first place. So they still have to label them in the most horrific ways possible, accentuate all the negative aspects of what's going on with the ICE stuff, but not talk at all about the economy taking an uptick, not talk at all about GDP, not talk at all about tariffs being effective, not talk at all about any of the people. positive things. Stopping wars. He stopped wars in multiple different countries. Stop conflicts.

2:16:55Andrew Doyle:No one's talking at all in an objective sense. It's, this is a Nazi party. These are fascists. We have to have no kings. Stop the fascists. So these narratives are just being pushed out there constantly by the media. All the while, these politicians are absolutely terrified that these investigations are going to start moving into their states and uncovering more and more and more fraud, which they're going to.

2:17:20Joe Rogan:I mean, I know you say it's so reckless, though, I think, as well for the Democrats to, like you say, paint ice as Nazis, talk about that this is the equivalent of the Gestapo. I think someone used that phrase. I mean, what you're saying about the shootings, obviously, we all agree it's absolutely horrific. Any kind of situation where the police inflict that kind of violence and someone needs to be thoroughly investigated and looked into and all the rest of it. But I'm concerned about the politicians I know. Go there. Get in the way of federal agents while they're enforcing the law.

2:17:44Andrew Doyle:They're just trying to be popular.

2:17:46Joe Rogan:But they're putting people's lives at risk, aren't they?

2:17:50Andrew Doyle:But it's, again, that chess move again. Giving up the rook or attacking a rook and giving up your queen because of it. Because you just want the current victory.

2:17:59Joe Rogan:Well, it's working insofar as the public is turning against Trump because of what's happening with ICE. There's certainly a lot of that.

2:18:05Andrew Doyle:Yeah, there's certainly a lot of that. The narrative is out there. It's dependent upon how far it goes. They've got to de-escalate this violence. Yes, they've got to make sure that that but you also need support of local police You can't have people attack the hotels where these ice people are staying and have no support whatsoever by the police. That's crazy They're being told to stand down. So this is messy stuff and you yeah, but look how hard it was

2:18:32Joe Rogan:I mean you talk about how, you know Trump has come in and he stripped away all this stuff and this fraud and but that was he didn't do it in the first term It's only when he got to the second term and it was planned and he had doge set up and he had musk in place and all of this deep state stuff could be identified and stripped out and worked on.

2:18:48Andrew Doyle:We had a lot of deep state people in his cabinet the first term. Right. He didn't know.

2:18:51Joe Rogan:So he couldn't work against it. Right. But we can't, in the UK, just to sort of explain where I think we are there, is we can't do that because we have, the two major parties are both ideologically in lockstep effectively. Right. So, I mean, most of the woke stuff was pushed through the Conservative Party. They were in power for 13 years. They're ostensibly right wing.

2:19:12Andrew Doyle:They pushed through the woke stuff?

2:19:13Joe Rogan:They pushed through all the genders, self-recognition stuff. Why do you think the conservatives did that? So the why is a good question. So the prime minister, Theresa May, conservative prime minister at the time, she said in her autobiography, I'm woke and proud. You know, she said like she's can you imagine Trump saying that? It's the equivalent. It's the equivalent. So I think it's because something about this ideology infected every side of the the political art, particularly in the UK. What might happen now in the UK is reform are probably going to win the next election. That's in three years' time.

2:19:45Joe Rogan:And that's so seismic because it will blow apart this two-party system that we've got. That probably couldn't happen in America, right? You probably couldn't get a third. You have a third party that can win? We have a third party that can win. That's new. Really? And we haven't had that for a long, long, long, long time. But what is the possibility that it could win? You think it's 50-50? Look at it this way. We've been sort of veering massively from, you know, the conservatives under Boris Johnson won this mad, mad majority. like 80 seat majority and they could do whatever they want and they squandered it people were so resentful of what happened with johnson who by the way let in so more migration than illegal migration than we've ever had right did he do that for cheap labor probably i mean i think that's

2:20:24Andrew Doyle:certainly part of it certainly that's part of it that's a that's a problem that conservatives don't want to admit that they were you know i had a conversation with a very prominent politician who explained to me that he had a conversation with a guy who was a ceo of a corporation that didn't want to stop the flow of illegal immigration because he wanted cheap labor. He was flabbergasted. He was like, I can't fucking believe this guy's saying this out loud.

2:20:46Joe Rogan:It's worse with Johnson because in their manifesto, they pledged not to do it. So they had a promise. They call it the Boris wave. So that's how bad it was. And then you have Starmer and the Labour Party who are just as bad, if not worse. And, you know, we have a situation where it's unmanageable now. And reform, this third party, Nigel Farage's party, is saying, no, we're actually going to tackle this. And of course, ultimately what happens is the public, they reach a tipping point and they say, by the way, Starmer is the least popular prime minister on any opinion poll ever in the history of records.

2:21:19Joe Rogan:He's gone from a massive majority to nothing because he's been so useless on all of this stuff, because he's been so captured by the ideology, because he doesn't care about migration, because he said that anyone who was concerned about the grooming gang scandal was jumping on a bandwagon of the far right. That's what he That's what he said. Yeah. So all of this has happened. But you can't blame the left. It's the left and the right. It's both of them. It's why they call it the uni party. It's the same thing. So you need something else to come along and explode it.

2:21:49Andrew Doyle:What do you think the possibility of Farage winning? Pretty high. Really? Right. So if it were today, he'd win. If he didn't get whacked between now and then.

2:21:57Joe Rogan:Do you guys whack people over there very often? Less than here. I think that's more an American thing. It's a lot easier. A lot more guns over here. There's a lot more guns. But fingers crossed, obviously, that won't happen. But it looks like if it was today, he'd win. There's obviously a couple of years. I mean, he could mess things up. Something crazy could happen.

2:22:18Andrew Doyle:Get caught with a live boy or a dead girl. Something like that.

2:22:21Joe Rogan:But I think with Starmer, people are just sick of it. He has continually backtracked on all his promises. He's not interested. He dismisses people's concerns about immigration. He dismisses people concerned about the mass rape of children in the grooming gang scandal. that, you know, they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do an inquiry about that. They didn't want to do it, you know, and because they're so terrified of being called racist, ultimately, so they let this thing slide. So I think people are just sick of it. I think people have reached the point where even I think people who don't like Nigel Farage will hold their nose and vote for a third party to explode the system.

2:22:56Joe Rogan:And maybe we might be able to reset after that. Maybe something could happen.

2:22:59Andrew Doyle:One of the things that's interesting in America is a lot of young people are becoming conservative. That is interesting.

2:23:05Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:23:05Andrew Doyle:It's interesting because I think that's a force of the internet and being a conservative more today is more like being a rebel.

2:23:12Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:23:12Andrew Doyle:It's like bucking this system. Whereas it used to be that if you were a rebel, you were left wing, you were like, you're a hippie.

2:23:20Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:23:21Andrew Doyle:You know, and that's not really the case anymore because the system that has power is a system that is pushing this one very particular ideology that also demonizes young males.

2:23:33Joe Rogan:Hugely. Yeah. But that's also why I don't think it's about left and right anymore. I think one of the things about the culture war is it kind of killed off left and right. Like I say, in the UK, we couldn't vote this out. We had a right-wing party. It didn't make a difference. The left-wing party makes it worse. We had a prime minister, you know, Keir Starmer on radio saying that 99.9 % of men, women don't have a penis, which means that there are, what is it, 35 ,000 female penises out there. It's quite a lot, if you can picture that image. You know, so that's our prime minister saying this crazy.

2:24:05Joe Rogan:Our deputy prime minister said on TV that you could grow a cervix if you wanted. So that's David Lammy. That sounds like I'm making that up. He said that. You can check that. He said you could grow a cervix. So these are the kind of people who are in charge now. who it's just all about their fake ideology.

2:24:25Andrew Doyle:Which is why internet censorship is so much more prominent there. That's why it's going to happen. No, that's why they're going to absolutely try to do that. Yeah, exactly. Well, they are doing it. Just self-censorship by arresting people. There's a lot of censorship involved in scare.

2:24:37Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:24:37Andrew Doyle:Just in the fear of being arrested.

2:24:39Joe Rogan:But the problem for reform will be, do they have the guts to do what Trump did? Do they have the guts to come in and say, look, we need to scrap the civil service. Well, you can't scrap the civil service, but you need to sort of bleed it dry. You need to give it a good rinse, right? You need to get rid of the... Because there have been whistleblowers in the UK civil service who've said, we're not going to do what the elected politicians say. If they come in and say there's an immigration problem, we're just going to stymie that. We're not going to do what they want. We've got police who are routinely investigating people for their opinions.

2:25:11Joe Rogan:Just to put that into context, by the way, if we're talking about this deep state that we've got to clean out, our police force is trained by a body called the college of policing they have been telling police for years it's your job to arrest people for what they think and what they say and the high court the high court told them you've got to stop this you've got to stop recording non-crime hate incidents two home secretaries said to them you've got to stop recording non-crime hate incidents they ignored the courts they ignored the government and that's the power of an ideologically captured quango you know that's that's the problem so even when you even when you vote for a party that's going to strip this stuff out you still have to do the actual hard work of stripping out i would abolish the college of policing do people know about non-crime hate incidents do they do they know that this is a thing in america do they know that that's what we do not really i mean people

2:26:03Andrew Doyle:are just aware that there's a lot of arrests because of social media posts we don't we don't pay nearly as much attention to the uk as the uk pays attention to american politics and that's

2:26:12Joe Rogan:fair enough because we're a small island that's fair enough but what i would say is like it's worse than people think insofar as the 12 000 arrested a year that's horrific but with the police routinely checking up on you if you commit non-crime that's sort of even worse isn't it yeah the scottish police have a database of jokes that they've seen online that they think are problematic and they've kept this the scottish police introduced a hate crime bill two years ago now which can prosecute you for things you say in your own house there's a section in that bill on the public performance of a play.

2:26:44Joe Rogan:So if a play is offensive, they can arrest you. If you're the director or an actor involved in a play and it's considered offensive, they can arrest you. They set up, when they implemented that hate crime bill, they set up hate crime reporting centres. So if you felt offended, you could, and they converted like, there was a sex shop, I think, there was a mushroom farm. You could go and report hate to the police as and when it occurs. And this is coming from the police force, the people who are supposed to sustain authority and prevent criminality. And you've seen the viral videos of police coming, knocking on people's doors saying, you said this thing online.

2:27:18Joe Rogan:That's insane. So I think it's worse than just the arrest. I think it's a rotten system that is being trained by activists in the College of Policing that no government will deal with. They don't get rid of these activists. And the activists, when they're told to stop it, they carry on anyway. The entire culture has to shift. That's what I mean.

2:27:41Andrew Doyle:Yeah.

2:27:41Joe Rogan:That's what I mean. You need a politician to go in and say, scrap the college policing, strip out all the activists within the NHS, within the army, within the police, within the Crown Prosecution Service.

2:27:51Andrew Doyle:It also has to get so bad that people realize how bad it is and they need radical change.

2:27:56Joe Rogan:But I think the grooming gangs did that.

2:27:57Andrew Doyle:Yeah.

2:27:58Joe Rogan:I think the fact that we effectively sacrificed thousands of kids on the altar of ideology, the fact that we said, you know, there were politicians, counselors, doctors, social workers saying we don't want to be called racist. So we're going to ignore the sexual assault of children on a mass scale.

2:28:16Andrew Doyle:And that was not really thoroughly covered here in America. Really? In mainstream news. I think because Elon. No, online it was, but not in mainstream news. So do people not generally know about that? They know about it now. Right. But it wasn't something that you would see every night on CNN.

2:28:32Joe Rogan:Really? That's a huge story. But the power of being called racist became so intense. I mean even – you know that horrible bombing at the Manchester Arena at the Ariana Grande concert? In the subsequent report of what went wrong, one of the security guards said he saw the perpetrator with the rucksack and he didn't approach him or apprehend him because he was afraid of being called racist. That was the reason. And as a result of that, two dozen children lost their lives.

2:28:59Andrew Doyle:Oh, my God.

2:29:00Joe Rogan:The power of smearing someone as racist is so potent, which is why I think here in America, the word fascist, the word Nazi gets thrown around so much because they know if someone is so branded, you disoblige yourself from having to engage with their ideas. They become this kind of monster that you don't have to even think about or worry about.

2:29:19Andrew Doyle:Right.

2:29:19Joe Rogan:And we're just I think we're just getting over that in the UK now where the accusation of racism no longer really sticks. I think people think it doesn't mean anything anymore. And, you know, they've tried with reform. They've tried saying that reform is a racist party. It's a far right party. No one's buying it anymore. And I think that's why hopefully something can change. I think the grooming gangs, I think the mass immigration, to the extent where people now are at risk. They just are. Unvetted people, many with criminal records. We don't want to go the way of Sweden. I mean, you know how bad Sweden's got, right?

2:29:53Joe Rogan:You know, Sweden used to be the most high trust society in Europe, low crime. They allowed mass immigration on a scale they couldn't possibly contain. I think it's now 20 percent of Swedish population are now foreign born. And predominantly they live in ghettos where crime is rife. They didn't integrate. There was no expectation they should integrate. and as a result of that it's gone from being one of the safest countries in Europe to being the country that has most gun and bomb attacks of any country not at war except for Mexico and that's happened in the space of 10 years crazy it's an absolute trap I remember when it was going on and a Swedish stand up friend of mine Tobias Pearson texted me saying there's gun there's grenades grenades going off in Stockholm there's gunfire on my street there's and the politicians are doing nothing about it they're saying this doesn't matter I was in Sweden a couple of years ago.

2:30:46Joe Rogan:I was talking to a bunch of – you know what Swedes are like. They're very middle class, very – well, not all of them, but very liberal. Very – like not a racist shred in their body. And they all came back to the same story. They all wanted to discuss immigration. And they all come back to the same thing. One woman said to me, I got this wrong. We got this wrong. Why do you think they did it? Good intentions, first and foremost. Really? Okay, well, there's a – Really? You think it was just good intentions to let all those people in?

2:31:12Andrew Doyle:Have you met Swedes? I have. It's so lovely. But come on. It's happening in America. It's happening in England. It's happening in the UK. Yes. It's happening in Ireland. It's just good intentions everywhere.

2:31:22Joe Rogan:Could it also be this delusion, this idea, what you would call, I suppose, liberal universalism, this idea that everyone is basically the same. Everyone in every culture basically wants the same things. It explains the queers for Palestine phenomenon.

2:31:38Andrew Doyle:It doesn't matter where you go. No, no, no. The Queer for Palestine phenomenon is explained by the internet and people being stupid and being in a bubble where they never experienced those folks. I don't think – I think this is organized. I think it's organized. I think the more chaos there is, the more they can crack down on your rights.

2:31:54Joe Rogan:I know you think it's organized. I'm not convinced of that yet. I'm open to it.

2:31:59Andrew Doyle:I mean, at one point in time, it's fairly universal in Western societies now to try to ruin them.

2:32:05Joe Rogan:In Europe, yes.

2:32:06Andrew Doyle:In America as well. for the last four years before Trump got into office. That's what they were doing here. It seems like a strategy. It doesn't seem as simple as just good intentions.

2:32:15Joe Rogan:I know. Well, and that does seem too simplistic. I absolutely agree with that.

2:32:18Andrew Doyle:You create more chaos. The more chaos you have, the more laws you need. The more laws you need, the more control you have.

2:32:25Joe Rogan:But speaking to these people in Sweden, I mean, I was there, it was an event where we were talking about a book I'd written. So it was all about these issues. And I was mingling and talking to them. And they all wanted to talk about it. But they're the citizens. That's what I mean.

2:32:36Andrew Doyle:I mean, the people that implemented those laws in the first place, that's where I'm cynical. I think the people that implement those laws in the first place, they know what they're doing.

2:32:43Joe Rogan:Yes. And, well, certainly they're aware of the risks. I mean, if you take what happened in Cologne, that New Year's Eve party, where I think over 800 women were sexually assaulted. And the media didn't report it. And the government wanted to sort of minimalize it and say that this wasn't real.

2:32:58Andrew Doyle:It's not even just the risks. It's the physical, actual, measurable consequences. Yes, exactly. And they're not course correcting. That, to me, leads me to think that they know what they're doing.

2:33:09Joe Rogan:You don't think it could just be complete naivety, this idea that—

2:33:12Andrew Doyle:I think it's the best way to combat the Internet. The best way to combat the Internet is to create a massive amount of chaos and then crack down on people's lives.

2:33:19Joe Rogan:I suppose what worries me about it is, though, the assumption that it's all sort of coordinated will take you down that route where you start thinking, as some friends of mine now think, Like the world is controlled by a group of Satanists who sit in a room and they choose the leaders. Do you know what I mean? Well, I don't think it's Satanists, but I think it's incredibly wealthy people.

2:33:40Andrew Doyle:But why would it be in their interest to destroy the economy that so sustains them? Well, it depends on where they are and who they are. But George Soros clearly does that and he's talked about it. He's talked about enjoying destroying democracies and enjoying destroying countries. He's not allowed to go into certain countries. He makes money doing it. But he relies on those democratic societies.

2:34:02Joe Rogan:Yeah, but they're still functional. He just profits off of it largely. That's what I struggle with, though. Someone who believes in fundamentally the capitalist dream can't yearn for—

2:34:12Andrew Doyle:The capitalist dream can be—it's subject to manipulation.

2:34:17Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:34:19Andrew Doyle:Intelligent, evil people, or at least amoral people. But this doesn't answer why people do vote for it, and they do. They do vote for it because they've done a really good job of attaching it. And there's also this ideology thing. There's left and right. And if you're left, you're blue no matter who, blue to the grave. That's it. And if anybody that votes red is a dirty racist fascist and they think about it that way. And we really have no option for a centrist party in this country, which is where most people lie. Most people lie in the middle. Most people are very socially liberal. and most of the people that I know that even identify as conservative, they're very socially liberal.

2:34:56Andrew Doyle:But they're financially much more aligned with conservative ideology.

2:35:01Joe Rogan:Sure. Well, I think ultimately, hopefully, the brick wall of reality is what cures this. If we don't destroy society along the way,

2:35:10Andrew Doyle:if we don't allow them to destroy society, if we don't completely erode all of our rights along the way.

2:35:16Joe Rogan:And as you said earlier, you can get very close to that happening.

2:35:19Andrew Doyle:And rights lost are never regained. Never. Look at Australia. They had one mass shooting. They took their guns in the 1990s. Then COVID came. They're like, get in a fucking camp. Yeah.

2:35:29Joe Rogan:And they've just introduced a new hate speech law off the back of the Bondi Beach shooting. And of course, this, again, is really draconian. It goes way too far. In fact, I think the Australian hate speech law is basically saying if someone does something that wasn't intended to stir up hatred, but it could conceivably have stirred up hatred among a theoretical group of people, then it's a crime and you can get five years in prison.

2:35:52Andrew Doyle:Sure. And imagine blaming that on hate speech instead of blaming it on just letting wild, violent criminals emigrate into your country. I mean, that's imagine.

2:36:03Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:36:03Andrew Doyle:What amazing gaslighting. We're not saying, hey, maybe we should stop letting violent criminals enter into our country illegally and live here. No, no, no. What we should start doing is taking people that have done no crime whatsoever and create their dissent, create a crime based on their dissent.

2:36:23Joe Rogan:I totally agree. We had it in the UK. We had a politician, horrible story, a guy called David Amos. You know, he was stabbed to death by an Islamist at his surgery. You know, politicians, we call them surgeries where you meet face to face your constituents. They come and you talk about the local issues. I don't think they do that in America. He stabbed him to death. And then there was this parliamentary debate about how can we crack down on free speech online? Right. No, the problem was the knife wielding maniac. The problem was unchecked Islamism. I mean, it really is what Besbinov was saying.

2:36:58Joe Rogan:Yeah, it's that thing of not addressing the – like after the –

2:37:00Andrew Doyle:But not seeing the truth. Not seeing the truth because you've been captured.

2:37:04Joe Rogan:You've been demoralized. But I think what's better now is that people can see through that. So like when Keir Starmer, after that horrible, I mentioned it earlier, the girls who were killed in the dance class by the guy who was a child of immigrants. His response to that was, okay, let's not deal with the fact that we've got radicalized individuals within our community, young people. He said, let's ban buying knives off Amazon because the guy got the knife from Amazon, right? You can also get them in shops, Keir. You can walk in and get a shop.

2:37:36Andrew Doyle:Most people have a kitchen knife at home.

2:37:38Joe Rogan:It's like one of the most common weapons. And he banned ninja swords around the same time, which was a big blow to the ninja community. But I kind of so crazy. That's the thing you go for.

2:37:49Andrew Doyle:You choose the thing that isn't. But this is the idea of allowing this kind of chaos and having this be a coordinated plan. Right. Yeah. The more chaos you have, the more you gaslight people, the more people are attached to an ideology, the more you can keep restricting their rights. further and further and further until they're more and more frustrated until a lot of them just give up.

2:38:10Joe Rogan:But we are at a position now where people are seeing through it all the time. In the UK now, like no matter how much they smear reformers far right, the polls just keep going up and up and up for them. Right, but it's because of the internet

2:38:21Andrew Doyle:because you have at least some dissenting voices.

2:38:25Joe Rogan:We have that. And also the palpable absurdities of what the politicians are trying to tell you is real. Right.

2:38:30Andrew Doyle:That's why they're trying to crack down on pub talk.

2:38:33Joe Rogan:Oh, and by the way, you know, the Labour Party has cancelled a number of local elections because they know they're going to lose them. They've actually cancelled them. They've cancelled them. Well, they've said they've postponed them while they're reforming the system. What they're really skipping. But it's stuff like that where. Get rid of the juries, cancel elections, and they're the good guys. And at that point, it doesn't matter how much your propaganda or how much you think your propaganda is going to work. The public are going to see through that. And they say, hang on a minute. You're saying that I can't vote.

2:39:01Joe Rogan:You're saying if I end up in court, I may not have a jury. You're saying I can't browse through Twitter. You're saying I can't say the wrong thing online. Enough is enough. And I think they reach a point where they say, and some of the stories are so egregious. Like, for instance, the guy, have you heard of a guy called Hamit Koskan? I think he's Armenian guy who burned a copy of his Koran outside the Turkish embassy, right? The idea of this was a protest against the Turkish government because he perceives Erdogan's government as, I suppose, supporting Islamism and the rise of Islamism. So he protests outside the thing, burns the Koran.

2:39:33Joe Rogan:Two people attack him, one with a knife, the other, some deliveroo driver starts kicking him. He gets prosecuted in a court of law for inciting the violence. And the judge actually says, the fact that you were attacked is proof that you were inciting violence, right? It took the free speech union in the UK to have that overturned, to fight on his behalf, to say that's a peaceful protest. It was his copy of his book. We don't have blasphemy laws in the UK. But now the CPS, the Crown Prosecution Service, is trying to overturn that because they want to see this guy go down. And that is what we're talking about.

2:40:04Joe Rogan:We've got bodies like the Crown Prosecution Service saying, no, we want an Islamic blasphemy code in the UK. The Labour Party wants an official definition of Islamophobia. so you can't criticize, you can't peacefully protest you can't burn a book that you bought and all of that and we're seeing this happen in front of us and people are just saying look we believe in plurality, we believe in freedom of religion you should be able to we've got nothing against Muslim people what we are objecting to is the idea that we shouldn't be able to ridicule your religion or mock your religion or protest against your religion and you're going to pathologize it by saying we've got a sickness we're Islamophobic I think that case the fact that you can't I mean, some kid in a school in Wakefield accidentally scuffed a copy of his Quran and he got hit with a non-crime hate incident.

2:40:49Joe Rogan:And there was a big issue and the police got involved. You know, we have to hold fast to this idea that no, no idea, no idea doesn't get criticized. And so I just think the more stories like that happen, maybe I'm naive, but I think the British public's patience is kind of at the very end.

2:41:11Andrew Doyle:I hope so. I hope it's not too late. I really do. But in the meantime, your book, The End of Woke, it's available. Did you do the audio version of it? I did. It took me ages. Yeah. I'm glad you did it, though. Yeah, I'm sure it is. But it's always so much better when it's in someone's voice, especially someone like you. Thank you, Andrew. Really appreciate it. And I hope you guys figure it out over there. But in the meantime, I'm glad you're here. Well, I got away. I'm glad. So it's okay. I'm glad. But I mean, it shouldn't be that everybody has to escape. That's crazy.

2:41:38Joe Rogan:No, I know.

2:41:39Andrew Doyle:You know? It's nuts. and then what's going to be left? Like only people that are submitting and then the chaos of what you've allowed in. It's fucking nuts.

2:41:47Joe Rogan:Exactly. So you've got to make sure that America doesn't go to pop because I need this place to work.

2:41:51Andrew Doyle:Yeah, I need it to work too. Part of my business model. All right. Thank you. Bye, everybody.

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