#2462 - Aaron Siri

19:11Aaron Siri:We're just holding them accountable. Now, go back to vaccines. Think about how incredibly harmful and how much harm these vaccines must do that they cannot survive on the market without this immunity from 1986. Think about that.

19:29Joe Rogan:If you were going to steal me on the argument against that. Yes. Wouldn't you say, look, these are we can't have frivolous lawsuits against these people that are providing us the most important medication that's available to humans. The whole reason why we survive smallpox and polio and all these different things, it's these vaccines. Without them, we'd all be dead. This episode is brought to you by Montana Knife Company. I have used their knives for years. They are absolutely fantastic. The company was founded by one of the most experienced master bladesmiths in the world, my friend, Josh Smith.

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21:04Aaron Siri:Let's just assume that the last part of what you said is true, which we know it's not. But with that said, it's steel manning it. Easy response. Okay? Okay.

21:17Aaron Siri:Drugs, drugs that are for very small populations, meaning not a lot of market, not a lot of sales, that cause incredible side effects, can survive on the market profitably. Think about that for a second. Why? Okay? Here's why. It's a little bit of legal stuff, but it's not that hard. It's not that bad. Okay? The primary claim you would typically bring against a product is the claim that it could have been made safer. It's called a design defect claim. It's a claim where I say, hey, had you put in a two-cent stopper on that gas tank, it wouldn't have exploded. If you had put in a one-penny plastic shield on that saw, I'd have had my finger.

22:03Aaron Siri:Design defect claim. The claim you could have made a product safer. It is the primary claim you would bring for a product, okay? Injury claim. So how do you protect against it? You make the product as technologically safe as possible, right? So if you have a drug that causes incredible side effects that we just talked about, make the drug as safe as possible. Make sure that there are no contaminants. Make sure that you use the best possible ingredients. Make sure the combination, right? The safest adjuvant, go down the road. That's number one. Number two, the second way you hold them accountable is you bring a claim called a failure to warrant claim.

22:45Aaron Siri:I failed to warn you about the harm that the drug could have caused, okay? And so what do you have to do there to protect yourself? The company has to disclose all the potential harms. If it has it right there in the package insert and you get it and it says, hey, it can cause this, this, this, this, this, you were told. You chose to still take the product. They made it as safe as technologically feasible. They disclose the risks, and that is how companies typically limit their liability with medical products, with drug products. Okay? Why can't they do those with vaccines? Why can't they just make them as safe as technologically feasible, can't assume for design defect, and disclose all the actual risks in the package insert?

23:20Aaron Siri:Okay? The logical conclusion is—and one other point to that, and then I'll respond to your steel man, okay? Okay. And it's this. All right? It's been 40 years for some of these vaccines. HEPB vaccine, for example, licensed in 86 and 89, the two standalones. It's been 40 years. You're telling me they still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? You're giving it to millions of kids a year. You're making billions of dollars on the sales of this product, and you still don't know it's safe enough to lift that immunity? Please.

23:48Joe Rogan:Okay. If I was a silly person, I would probably say these vaccines are more important than any medication that's ever existed because they are the reason why we are here. because that's how we survived smallpox and polio and the measles and everything else. And without them, we would have perished. We would have never achieved the technological states that we're at because we wouldn't have been healthy. We would have gone through mass plagues. Okay. I'll respond to that. So because of that, it's just important that they stay in business.

24:24Aaron Siri:Well, a few things. And we trust the science. We should trust the science, Aaron. Trust the science, yes. Believe.

24:28Joe Rogan:Aaron, trust the science.

24:29Aaron Siri:Yes, sir.

24:33Aaron Siri:Amen. Amen. Yeah, I try not to do too much believing and I try to do a little bit of evidence-based thinking. But any event, look, when it comes to these products, I save my beliefs for religion, the unanswerables, where do we go when we die, and so forth. I have to take a leap of faith and I do it when I need to, but you don't need to with these products. Okay, on the first part of what you said, first of all, there are products probably that are far more important to humanity at the moment, no question about it, than vaccines, even assuming it had the results that you just claimed, which I'll address in a second.

25:08Aaron Siri:Imagine you said, look, cars are essential. I mean, cars, you can't get in an ambulance. You can't get to the hospital. Without cars, you can't get to work. You can't get to school. I mean, it's essential to a functioning society. So let's give cars a medium liability. Intuitively, you'd say that's ridiculous.

25:21Joe Rogan:Right.

25:21Aaron Siri:On the deaths point, that is one of the myths. That is one of the mythologies around vaccines that has developed over time. This notion that everybody in America die without vaccines. In chapter seven of my book, and I lay it out for every single disease. And what I do there is I say, okay, how many deaths were there in America the year before the vaccine was first introduced or widely used or so forth? OK, in any real degree. And what you find is if you go down the list, there were typically dozens to hundreds, maybe a thousand or so deaths from each disease for which we vaccinate. The further back in time you go, the larger the number in that dozens to a thousand or so deaths.

26:10Aaron Siri:OK, for example, measles, the dreaded measles that they say everybody will die from. No measles vaccine. We're all going to die. Right. That is the impression they give you. You have any idea how many people died of measles in the years before there was a measles vaccine in the United States? How many? About 400 a year. That's it? That's it. 400 a year, died in the United States at a time when everybody had measles, which comes out to about 1 in 450 ,000 Americans dying of measles. That's in the CDC. Anybody listening to this who's like, come on, that's not true. CDC mortality documents on the CDC website cited in my book, 400.

26:46Aaron Siri:And don't about 50 ,000 people every year die from the flu? Well, that statistic includes bacterial deaths that they say are potentially the result from having influenza.

27:03Joe Rogan:So your immune system gets weakened and then something else hits you and that kills you? Is that the idea behind it?

27:11Aaron Siri:Well, that's just the way they gather the data is the way I'll put it. But with influenza, well, let me finish up with measles. Because I think this is important on the measles one, and I can deal with influenza as well. But on the measles one, just to really, because you're saying, well, everybody would die without these. I don't think people think of influenza, by the way. They think of measles. They think of those diseases. I don't ever hear anybody say to me, well, everybody will die of influenza without influenza vaccines. It's available. Everybody can get it. The mortality hasn't changed much.

27:47Aaron Siri:In fact, if you look at the mortality of influenza before influenza vaccines were widespread, we're not doing that great. Okay. Anyway, putting that aside for a moment.

27:56Joe Rogan:Not only that, isn't there data that shows that if you get it, you're more likely to get other colds? Yeah.

28:02Aaron Siri:I have a whole giant footnote in my book about this, and I actually tweeted this out and did a stuff stick about this. a whole series of articles, studies that show that those that have had the influenza vaccines, maybe these studies often reflect have around the same rate of influenza. Maybe they have less respiratory influenza infections, but many studies show they have multiple times the rate of other respiratory infections. So good job. Maybe you've reduced your risk of influenza by this much, but you've increased your risk of another different respiratory disease by that much. How much is it?

28:41Aaron Siri:How much is the increase? Depends on the study. Some studies show four times risk. Some studies show three times risk. Yeah. I mean, literally three, four, I mean, huge percentages. And they're statistically significant in these studies. And so, you know, when you're looking at a, now these are all retrospective epidemiological studies. But when you do a retrospective epi study, which means you take existing data and then you study it versus saying, okay, we're going to do a study and follow people going forward, okay? If you find like a 1.3 time, which means 30 % increased risk, like that's a published full finding.

29:17Aaron Siri:This is three, 400 % increased risk. Yes. And in many of these studies, it's inconvenient data. So obviously it's not talked about.

29:24Joe Rogan:Right. So 400 people is not a whole lot. I'm sure, I mean, it's sad when 400 people die. But it's also one of those diseases that when you're a child, it's much more survivable, right, than adult. Adult, it's rough, isn't it?

29:40Aaron Siri:Yeah. So measles, the ideal age to get it is not when you're an infant, which in the pre-vaccine era, infants typically did not get measles because they got maternal immunity from the mother. and you don't want to get it as an adult because it is more likely to cause problems, which again, in the pre-vaccine era, wasn't a problem because everybody virtually got it as a child.

30:04Joe Rogan:Right.

30:05Aaron Siri:Yeah.

30:06Joe Rogan:And when you got it as a child, my recollection of it was the episode of the Brady Bunch. Do you remember? Yeah. Remember that episode? Yeah, they were laughing about it. Let's watch this. We'll find that clip and let's watch it because it's so indicative of what measles was actually like in the culture of the people that would get it all the time versus this boogeyman of today. I mean, it is it's so stark. It's so I mean, it's like imagine the kid coming home. Hey, mom, I've got AIDS. I got to stay home from school. It's not that right. It's it's the way that most folks who've had chickenpox think of chickenpox.

30:43Joe Rogan:Right. Right. But we're told that it's killing people and we're told that it's killing people now. We're told that it's killing. It's always kids. We're told it's killing kids now. And look, if anybody dies from measles, I'm very sad. But I want to know, is it with measles? Remember the with COVID or from COVID? Like what kind of condition were these people in before this hit them? Because some I mean, that was the thing about COVID. It's like, yeah, it's fatal. If you have four plus comorbidities, you're more likely to be fatal. And that was most of the people that wind up dying from it, right?

31:20Aaron Siri:That's almost certainly the case. And I can add another data point to that to help support that, which is that between 1900, and this is, again, CDC data, between 1900 and the late 1950s, early 1960s, the mortality from measles declined in the United States by over 98%. you know what didn't cause that vaccines yeah because it didn't exist

31:45Joe Rogan:so immunity had become a herd thing just like COVID-ish right now everybody basically has had COVID or at least he's been exposed to it by now here it is it's a whole episode there's multiple clips I don't know which one let's just try he finds out he's coming over put on your headphones for a second so we can hear this Aaron Oh, grab your hat Thank you Are you sure it's the measles?

32:15Aaron Siri:Well, he's certainly got all the symptoms A slight temperature, a lot of dots, and a great big smile A great big smile? No school for a few days Jim! You've got measles Golly, mothers are supposed to know everything But do you have to keep proving it? You've got a temperature too What do you mean, two? Peter was sent home from school a little while ago Oh, what was his temperature? 101.1. Oh, is that all? I'm 101.2. Oh, Greg, you want my railroad. I'll be a sport. You can ride on it free. Thanks a lot. It's your turn, Peter.

32:52Joe Rogan:They're having a measles party. Oh, missed it. Yep.

32:57Aaron Siri:Boy, this is the life, isn't it? Yeah. If you have to get sick, you sure can't beat the measles. That's right. No medicine. Inside or out. Like shots, I mean. Don't even mention shots. Yes. OK.

33:09Joe Rogan:I mean, am I crazy or have we gone through one of the wildest gas lightings of anything ever? There's people out there that because of the things that you said so far about the measles will be 100 percent freaking out on Twitter. Right. But this is this is a window into how the American public thought. I know it's a television show. I know it's a sitcom. But you can't joke around about stuff that other people wouldn't think is funny. People would think that was funny. These kids saying, if you're going to get sick, you should get the measles. And everybody at home would be like, oh, I wish I had a day off.

33:47Joe Rogan:Well, that's how they thought of it.

33:49Aaron Siri:Yeah. And to put hard data on it, going back to that statistic, over 98 % reduction. Remember, it's not like COVID, Joe. Because COVID, there was no immunity in the population. right right measles has been around for forever as far as we know thousands of years the year 1900 wasn't the beginning of herd immunity 1900 measles already endemic everybody was getting measles so every year there's a few million people cohort that were getting it and you had this decline and so you have to ask yourself what was the decline um it was probably better sanitation, better acute medical care, I mean, all kinds of things.

34:31Aaron Siri:And you know who could take credit for most of that stuff? Better sanitation, better living conditions, better, you name it, probably public health authorities. Meaning the improvement in acute care, the introduction of antibiotics, better living conditions, not having sewage in the street, you name it, probably had a massive contributor to that reduction, but they never point to that. and there's one other really inconvenient data point with measles and this is really where it gets upsetting for folks out there who you were just saying are going to watch the show and it's this that over 98 % reduction in mortality there's no reason that that curve was not going to continue because pockets of the United States in the late 50s early 60s were like a developing country in a developing country kids are going to die of any infectious disease because of extremely poor living conditions.

35:24Aaron Siri:And as those improved, most likely that 400 deaths also would have continued to decline. 4.2 million births in the United States in the late 50s, early 60s, about 3.8 million births today. So in fact, there's less children being born in America today than there was then. So you have a smaller cohort of babies, young children to infect. And final data point, and it's this. This is really, I know this is going to cause cognitive dissonance for some, but studies that have looked at those that have had measles versus those that don't find that those that have had measles have a statistically significant greater reduction in deaths from cardiovascular disease and various cancers.

36:13Aaron Siri:So I'll give you an example. There's a 20-year, 22-year prospective study in Japan done by, funded by the government to Japan and major universities that tracked 100 ,000 people in Japan for 22 years and have found that those that had measles and mumps had a 20 % statistically significant decline in deaths from cardiovascular disease. Think about that for a second. Just think about that. About 800 ,000 Americans die of cardiovascular disease. If eliminating measles and mumps has increased cardiovascular deaths in the United States by even 1 % on a life years lost basis, you are still way upside down on your public health benefit by eliminating measles.

36:56Joe Rogan:Can I ask you what the speculation is of how that could be? Why would measles and mumps infection at an early age improve your health cardiovascularly?

37:05Aaron Siri:Why would it also, those that have not had measles have a 66 % increased rate of non-Hodgkin's lymphoma and 266 % increased rate of Hodgkin's lymphoma, which kills 20 ,000 people a year. Why would women that have had measles have 50 % less ovarian cancer, which kills a lot of women every year? What is it about it? Maybe, and here's the thing, I'm, you know, and you can have a evolutionary biologist talk about this as well. You've had someone. Think about it this way. Pathogens have come and gone throughout the ages, right? This one didn't. Measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, they didn't. It could be, maybe, I'm not saying it is.

37:47Aaron Siri:I'm just saying this is what the data appears to reflect. What I just told you about with cardiovascular disease and cancer, they're all in PubMed. They're all PubMed studies. They're all in the published literature, and they're all consistent having the findings that I just described. I'm just a lawyer. I'm just repeating to what the data flex. It could be that having those febrile childhood infections conferred a survival advantage overall. And it could be the reason they never actually went away over time, became less obviously pathogenic.

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39:40Joe Rogan:It makes your immune system stronger, or your cardiovascular, like a stress test. I mean, it's not outside the realm of possibility, right? I mean, if lifting weights makes you stronger and studying makes you smarter, would it make sense that some form of infection that you recover from will make you more resilient? It does make sense. It's just like no one wants to say, hey, you should go get measles. Look, theory of relativity. In this world?

40:06Aaron Siri:Yeah, theory of relativity is not intuitive. Why is it as you approach a more massive object or approach the speed of light, does time relatively slow down? I don't know if it makes sense or not. It's just what when you put two atomic clocks on a plane, one on the ground, one on the plane, you fly it around the earth, they're not ticking the same. So there it is. Right. You can't pretend that's not data. The data is what it is. It doesn't have to make sense to be true. That's a good point. That's just what it is. And I'm just saying what the studies show. Very inconvenient. A lot of cognizance there.

40:37Aaron Siri:But it could very well be that this whole program, not only do we... So going back to your whole, going all the way back to your point, you're like, well, they'll say vaccines are so important. We got to give them this immunity. No. In fact, quite the opposite. Our babies are so precious, are so important. We want to make sure we have the safest possible product you can have. And the way to do that is to make sure the companies have an economic interest to make sure they're as safe as possible.

41:06Joe Rogan:I agree with you entirely. But if I was questioning anything, I would say, OK, if we don't have genetic immunity anymore because our parents didn't have it, because our parents are vaccinated against measles, wouldn't it be better to keep vaccinating people rather than let a whole bunch of people with no immunity to measles get it, particularly like older people? So this is a really important point, actually.

41:32Aaron Siri:I agree with you. Because here's here. Well, I'll put it into context.

41:36Joe Rogan:Before we get going, when they mandated vaccines or when they started giving them to people was what, in like the early 60s, I believe? For measles vaccines. For measles, yeah. Did a lot of people resist it? Was it back then were the hippies opting out? Is there like a group that you could follow and track that never got it, never got the vaccine while everybody else did?

41:57Aaron Siri:It has to be, right? I'm sure there's a group out there you can identify. I mean, the Amish. There you go.

42:03Joe Rogan:Right.

42:03Aaron Siri:So, you know, we represent right now because New York's trying to basically kick them out of New York for not vaccinating.

42:11Joe Rogan:That's crazy.

42:12Aaron Siri:We just in the U.S. Supreme Court, we were just successful in vacating the lower court decisions just a few weeks ago.

42:20Joe Rogan:Do you remember when Kathy Hochul was talking about the vaccines like they're a gift from God? She believes it. But do you remember how she was saying it? And it's like, in any other business, if you were running a pharmaceutical drug business, if you were running a Chevy and you're making a new Corvette and you started talking about how this Corvette is a gift from God, everybody would go, oh, Kathy's cracked. Yeah. Like, what are you talking about? It's a bunch of engineers. We put together a great car. Like, what do you – it's a gift from God.

42:48Aaron Siri:What? People don't say I believe in tables or I believe in chairs. I believe in TVs. I believe in wallpaper. Right. But they say I believe in vaccines all the time because it carries a truism.

42:58Joe Rogan:But do they work? Like does the measles vaccine prevent people from getting measles or is it a leaky vaccine? Is it a completely –

43:06Aaron Siri:So answering that and your prior question at the same time – Sorry. No, no, no. Don't be so – I'm very scattered. No, you're not scattered at all. That's how I do this. Is that the measles vaccine, MMR vaccine and chickenpox vaccine can prevent transmission. That is not true of most vaccines, but those can't. Those can. Those can. And so to your – now going back, so that's the differential. And in fact, for most of the other vaccines, like pertussis vaccine and so forth, they make you more likely to spread the pathogen if you're vaccinated, and I can tell you all about that. But before I do that, let me just point out that, to your last comment, because measles, MMR vaccine and chickenpox vaccine can prevent transmission, You are correct.

43:54Aaron Siri:If measles were to come through society right now, right now, in the current time, it would be problematic because babies who aren't supposed to get it would be more likely to get it because the mothers aren't conferring the same maternal immunity that they did in the pre-vaccine era because the vaccine doesn't confer the same level of immunity anywhere near. And older folks, because the vaccine is nowhere as efficacious as having had the infection, depending on the study, 2 % to 10 % do not seroconvert even after two doses, meaning they are not getting immunity at all pretty much or immunity as considered immune.

44:30Aaron Siri:Is this when they take it later in life or when they take it when they're young? This is when they take it when they're young. And that's why when there's a measles outbreak, a lot of times you'll hear a call to even have folks who are older get the measles vaccine again, right? There's guidance on that because it doesn't confer. If you've had measles, you're done. You never need a vaccine. Again, you'll never get measles again. One and done.

44:52Joe Rogan:Right.

44:53Aaron Siri:So, yes, it would be problematic right now for those, for MMR, measles, munch, rubella, and chickenpox to just kind of let it rip. You would have to really have an educational campaign beforehand if you were going to do that. But for the other vaccines, Hep B vaccine, pertussis vaccine, not a problem. Those vaccines don't stop transmission.

45:17Joe Rogan:The Hep B ones, kind of crazy that they give that to babies. It's kind of crazy. Kind of crazy if the parent aren't intervening as drug users or whatever, whatever would give them Hep B, that you're going to inject a baby with a vaccine that prevents them from getting a sexually transmitted disease and like a rarely sex. You got to be doing something rough.

45:41Aaron Siri:Joe, you just don't understand what goes on in the NICU. I mean, it just seems crazy. It is. And here, I'll give you another data point, which is in Denmark, okay, There is no hep B, universal hep B for kids. The only time they give hep B in Denmark is if the mother is hep B positive. So their hep B vaccination rate amongst children is like 0.1 % or something to that effect. Okay? So here you go. Two first world countries, America and Denmark. Universal hep B here, virtually zero hep B vaccine given there. The rate of hep B amongst children, not statistically significant. You know what is different between those two countries?

46:27Aaron Siri:The rate of harm from hep B vaccine, that's different. You know what a baby's never died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B. You know what a baby has died of on the first day of life? Hepatitis B vaccine. In fact, adjudicated as such not long ago for a newborn that died from a hep B vaccine. And I said earlier, you can't sue the manufacturers. You cannot. There is a little program, though, in the federal government where you can bring a claim if you're injured from a vaccine. That's what I'm talking about right now. I went about the head baby that died of Hep B. It's called the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program.

47:01Aaron Siri:I have like 20 folks in my firm that do that work. And, you know, it's not like a regular court. You don't get an Article III judge, Article III of the Constitution, a federal judge. You don't get any discovery as a right, which is how you prove harms. There's a$250 ,000 statutory cap on pain and suffering and on death, which is ridiculous. And it doesn't have, you know, anyways, long story short, it's paid out about$5 billion for damages and so forth from vaccines over the years. But so I didn't want people to get confused like when I said, well, how did this baby get adjudicated? Right. It got adjudicated in this program.

47:34Aaron Siri:Got it. Got it.

47:35Joe Rogan:Yeah. So when you have conversations with people and they are the way you used to be and the way I used to be. Yeah. Where you just sort of just assumed that these – the people that are experts in their fields are doing a great job and that's why we're alive. And you start telling them these things like are you a real problem at a cocktail party? Like do you have you ever Have you ever had a conversation that just went completely sideways? They started getting angry at you for quoting things. Yeah, cuz that's not

48:10Aaron Siri:It's not a problem for me because I don't know emotions or feelings about the products. They're just products, right? They're no different for me, but a lot of folks they there's two things. First, for some, like medical professionals, a lot of them seem to drive a lot of their self-schema almost, their value, their worth from these products. They saved humanity. How could you question that? We are the saviors, right? In some respects, almost like supplanting God, right? What's the only thing that will save us during COVID? Was it God? No. Vaccines, that's the only thing. And then for others, they think that they know, okay?

48:47Aaron Siri:but they don't know intellectually. They've never looked at the primary sources. So when you challenge them with evidence, what can they draw from? The intellect? No. They draw from their emotions. They draw from their feelings, and that's why they get angry. I do get that all the time, but I also often get folks who are just curious and interested to listen.

49:06Joe Rogan:Well, I think there's more of those now than there's ever been before.

49:11Aaron Siri:Absolutely. I think COVID, in that respect, forced the conversation. You had millions of people who were listening to basic stuff that 10 years ago when I started doing this work, nobody talked about what is a placebo? What's a clinical trial? What's the stuff? Like this became, or even the idea that a vaccine can cause a harm was just that notion was totally taboo seven years ago. No more.

49:35Joe Rogan:Yeah. I think you're entirely correct. And also credit to YouTube because YouTube doesn't suppress this stuff anymore, which is why I found dozens of interviews with you on YouTube. I mean, before, I mean, I'd seen some of your stuff on social media, but then, you know, I've watched a bunch of your stuff now on YouTube, whereas during the pandemic, everything you said, you would have got removed. I was removed. Everything I said was removed.

50:01Aaron Siri:I'll tell you the first thing that ever had posted that got said, it was on Twitter. Yeah, the old Twitter. So we brought this lawsuit against the FDA to get all the documents they relied upon to license Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, okay? Yeah. They licensed it in 42 days. And we said, all right, 42 days, give us all the documents, right? And they wanted forever. They wanted to produce at a rate of a few hundred pages a month, which would have taken hundreds of years, effectively. Got a tranche of those documents. Took some of them. Literally took one of the documents and posted it. And my tweet was just literally quoting from the document, effectively.

50:37Aaron Siri:And that was taken down as misinformation. Pfizer's own documents submitted to the FDA. One of the first things that that was just that was mind-jarring.

50:46Joe Rogan:It was stunning It was stunning to watch people not be outraged too when information was getting out about Different people that were silenced Jay Bhattacharya and all those different people that were getting attacked Martin Koldorf It was stunning how no one was going. Hey, what is going on here? This seems really weird that you're removing posts from guys from MIT and Stanford and and banning their accounts Like, that's fucking crazy. And until Elon purchased Twitter, we really didn't know the extent of it. We didn't really – we really weren't aware that it was government involvement. They were stepping in to remove – and remove malinformation.

51:24Joe Rogan:That was my favorite. They came up with – you know that one?

51:27Aaron Siri:Disinformation, malinformation.

51:29Joe Rogan:Mal's the best because it's true information that might cause problems, which is fucking almost everything. As soon as you have a problem with malinformation, like you are encouraging the creepiest kind of groupthink that's available and no one freaked out. Well, a few people freaked out, but not enough. It wasn't. It should have been bipartisan. It should have been a bipartisan freak out. It should have been left and right. But it got politicized in this really stupid way where people on the left were pro vaccine and pro pharmaceutical drug company and pro narrative. And people on the right were like, I'm going to take my chances.

52:04Joe Rogan:And those were the kooks. And, you know, it was this like ideological battle as much as it was a public health crisis.

52:12Aaron Siri:Censorship was bad. It was very bad. Real bad. But I'll tell you what made me think people were going to go into the street with pitchforks was when the government told everybody stay at home. That wasn't hidden. That wasn't behind the scenes, the stuff you're talking about. They said, stay in your house. They didn't say we recommend you stay in your houses. They didn't say we recommend you get this vaccine. We don't recommend you wear this mask. They said stay in your house. When they had that first order came down, I was like, people are just going to be outraged. People are going to protest.

52:51Aaron Siri:And when they didn't, that's what dismayed me personally. And I'll tell you why. Okay. because when you think about civil and individual rights, First Amendment, the right to free speech, the assembly, that was passed and adopted by the states in 1791. What's the First Amendment intended to do? It's restrict government from infringing on those rights. You think life was easy in 1791? What do you think life was like in 1791? You think it was easy? You think it was all hunky-dory? Life in 1791 was brutal! brutal you want to talk about disease pestilence famine war you want to talk about a life that is no electricity no running water no suet nothing and that amendment was passed for times that are more brutal than that and here comes a virus and every right you have is basically taken away and americans were like take it take it away that is what outraged me because look what was the whole point of this country what what what is america born out of in my view it's born out of the uh the idea that every other government that preceded it got it wrong in the following sense your life should not be dictated by a king or a dictator or a polybureau or a central authority.

54:20Aaron Siri:It's the idea that you are born with inalienable rights. You should be able to choose your destiny, including what risks you want to take. Individual rights come with risks. Letting Joe Rogan say what he wants on this podcast comes with risks. Letting you practice what religion you want, assemble with who you want, especially in Austin. Very interesting time yesterday. That comes with risks, let me tell you. A lot of risks, okay? But the greater risk is always ceding that right to the government. Because once you do, you don't get it back often. And so, yes, there was that hidden stuff you talk about.

54:54Aaron Siri:And that was bad. Don't get me wrong. That was bad stuff. That was really, really bad. But the stuff they did in the open, to me, in some ways, was even worse. And I hope that there's a lesson that folks learn from that. Because let me tell you something. Even if you love every vaccine out there, you listen to this, you love every vaccine. You love every mask. Right? Great. I support every American's right. You're 17, you're 18, you're totally healthy, no comorbidities, and you want to get a vaccine a day, wear 70 masks and live in your basement and a self-imposed day at home order? This is America.

55:27Aaron Siri:I support your right to do it. I'll fight for your right to do that. And you're 90, and you're a war veteran, and you have 16 comorbidities, and you want to go to the coffee shop with no vaccine and no mask? You should be free to do that, because that's America, too. That's freedom, also. Just like you can bull ride. And if you don't stand up for that right now, the day comes when there's something a medical product you don't want the government says you have to get because trust me it is so much cheaper to lobby to get a medical product required than it is to market to get people to get it oh they've learned that lesson that's why there's so much lobbying to get mandates get rid of exemptions across the country that you don't want and you can't get a job and you can't go to school and you can't leave your house then what good are the rest to your rights.

56:14Aaron Siri:They're useless. That's why medical liberty truly is a fundamental right. I'm off my high horse.

56:19Joe Rogan:No, it's a great high horse. That was an awesome rant. You're absolutely 100 % on the money. And it's such an important thing to get out there, to get people to understand that it's such a natural human inclination to, when you're in a place of power, of control, any form of government. You want more control. And it's just natural. And what you're talking about when you lose rights, you very rarely get them back. That was so on display in California with the COVID regulations because they had everybody locked down way past where they had to. A friend of mine's brother worked in one of the COVID, some government office when they were considering the closing of outdoor dining.

57:09Joe Rogan:And he brought up, but there's no transmission related to outdoor dining. And the woman who was in charge said, yes, but it's all about the optics. So she was willing to, with a wave of her magic wand, shut down outdoor dining for a bunch of small family businesses that were probably barely staying alive after COVID. Barely. We lost Somewhere around 70 percent of Los Angeles restaurants went under during COVID. That's fucking bananas. And so they finally get outdoor dining. Like, OK, we could kind of pay the bills this month. And then they shut down outdoor dining for optics. So this kind of desire to just put a foot down, control people, keep a boot on their neck, it's normal.

57:57Joe Rogan:Even if it doesn't make sense. Everybody knows that from high school. Everybody knows that from, I mean, the Stanford prison experiments. People like to control people. They enjoy it. And when they get a place like becoming the mayor or becoming the governor and being able to tell people, oh, you got to listen to me. I've got rule. Everyone stay inside. Be scared. Fucking California. Garcetti literally had a campaign that said snitches get rewards. Snitches. Snitching on people. Having more than one person over your house. Standing too close in the backyard. You get money. You get money for ratting out your neighbor.

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59:45Aaron Siri:Well, when the government gets it wrong, they always, always double down because, and that's the problem with the mandates. Once they've required it, they have taken a position. and then to admit they're wrong, often what government ends up saying is, oh, well, we're the CDC. If we admit we're wrong about this, that's going to hurt our ability to influence the public. And that's more important than admitting we're wrong on this or correcting course. Because our legitimacy, our ability to influence the public is so important. We have to, you know, we can't admit we're wrong. That's what Bobby's doing right now in some of these things is, you know, Some of the stuff, like the new autism page on the CDC website, for example, is contrary to anything I've ever seen come out of the federal health authorities to date.

1:00:35Aaron Siri:But yes, it's disturbing. And it's why government should – no public health authority should ever be able to tell you and infringe on your rights. They should be able to recommend. Recommend like crazy. Right. But never do it because that is the normal course of how tyranny, dictators, bullies, thugs operate. First, they tell you what to do. You don't listen, apply a little pressure. You don't listen, then they mandate. You still don't listen, they censor you. Still, take away more of your rights. That is the normal progression throughout history. And we saw it happen in front of our eyes, which is why it should be a line in the sand.

1:01:19Aaron Siri:Federal health authorities, state health authorities should be able to recommend and encourage. Never mandate ever.

1:01:25Joe Rogan:Fauci literally expressed it that way. I'm sure you've heard that recording of him. He said once people realize they can't go to work, they'll drop their ideological bullshit and they'll get vaccinated. Yeah. Like he's essentially telling them you're going to make people's life hell and they'll do what you want them to do. Not they will have free will. They will have the ability to choose. No, no, no. You will make them do what you want. Yeah. Who wants a government that persuades you on the merits? Forget that. But imagine that that is something that someone said out loud. But that, I don't think that what Fauci was saying is anything.

1:02:09Aaron Siri:Fauci, everything in my view that you saw during COVID is not like some giant leap into some new territory. To me, it's just another natural step in progression from where we've gone over the last 40 years with vaccines. Fauci saying that is no different than school mandates right now to get children. Most states have – 45 states have basically checked the box exemption to send your kids to school. There's about five that don't. They're trying to eliminate exemptions, right? Clearly, they're able to persuade most parents on the merits, but yet they can't take it. They can't take that 2%, 3%, 4 % just will not take these products.

1:02:51Aaron Siri:And I'll tell you about what most of these folks are. They're the folks who really need the exemptions because most people who don't choose to take childhood vaccines, they don't typically just wake up and decide to do that for fun. Not many people wake up one day and go, you know what I'm going to do today? I'm going to take a socially ostracizing position. I'm going to get my kids kicked out of school, me thrown out of my job. My friends call me an anti-this and anti-that. But, you know, you name it, all the horribles that come with not vaccinating. No, most people don't vaccinate, don't vaccinate because they've had a very, very personal or negative experience with these products.

1:03:30Aaron Siri:They are one of their kids or one of their family members or they've learned stuff they cannot learn about them. OK, they have usually a very good reason not to. And yet, as you saw during COVID, it's not about, in many respects... It's the medicine to the examples you gave. It's about they cannot stand that somebody is not agreeing with their beliefs. They cannot extend the exceptions. Those who stand up say, no, I've come to a different medical conclusion. They can't let that exist. Right.

1:04:03Joe Rogan:That is what it is. And it happens for people regardless of their religious status. It's a weird thing. It is like a religion, which is why I'm so glad you wrote your book that way because I think there's these natural patterns of groupthink and of just complying that people automatically fall into. It's very easy. That's why people can get people to join cults. That's why people are part of like weird Christian sex Like wait, what do you guys do? Huh? You're like who's the guy who's the head guy this guy and he gets to marry everybody what okay? What well that's what happened. It's normal. It's a normal thing and if you scale it outward It goes to a lot of stuff.

1:04:51Joe Rogan:There's a lot of stuff that people just have these like climate changes of religion right now like there's certain people that if you confront them with like the actual the ones that are willing to question the narrative that are legitimate client scientists they'll tell you like it is so complicated to figure out what is causing the changes in the earth's climate warmth and cold and the fact that it's never been static ever in human history never before humans never billions of years it's done this crazy thing it involves the precision of the equinoxes and the fucking polar vortex and it's a lot and then Also stuff we burn that too, but like what percentage is what and what but it doesn't matter you can't have that conversation It's like you questioning, you know, whatever Messiah this person believes in they'll just lock down and Climate change is this not one climate change prediction of doom has been accurate not one not even in the ballpark you remember The fucking Al Gore movie.

1:05:52Joe Rogan:Yeah, we're supposed to be dead Meanwhile, they're all buying fucking oceanfront houses in Maui. Get out of here. Shut the fuck up. This is another thing. This is another thing. Yeah, we shouldn't pollute. Yeah, we shouldn't release particulates in the atmosphere. Yeah, we should have clean energy. Yeah, but also, you guys are crooks. You guys are a bunch of crooks that are making money off of this idea that you're forcing down everybody's throat, that everybody's got a green new deal, and everybody's got to do renewable this, renewable that. And then who's got money invested in all this stuff?

1:06:24Joe Rogan:A bunch of people who are pushing it. And it's a fucking scam. Just like so many of these things are fucking scams. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be aware of the damage that we're doing to the earth. We should probably stop overfishing the ocean. We should probably stop dumping shit into the rivers. Oh, 100%. You know who used to go to court for that? Bobby. RFK Jr. You fucking cranks. The guy who is, like, cleaning up the East River. That's Bobby Kennedy Jr. He was the guy.

1:06:55Aaron Siri:And an easy way to identify that somebody is not really coming at you with science and they're coming at you with belief, religion, is exactly what you just said, which is they're not willing to debate. They're not willing to discuss it. They're not willing to engage because that is antithetical to the scientific method. The whole idea is it's never settled. The whole idea is you push the fringes. You push new theories. You push new ideas. Where would science be if you said this is it? Of course, that is the whole notion of it, dispassionately looking at it over and over and over and seeing what more you can learn.

1:07:33Aaron Siri:And the moment somebody says, no, we need to stop, you can't discuss, you can't debate that. That's when you know you're dealing with a religion, not science.

1:07:39Joe Rogan:And when I've talked to certain scientists in different fields that feel very constricted by the academic environment, one of the things that they point to is that the groupthink involved in that is just like the groupthink involved in everything and left wing politics, whatever it is, just figure out whatever it is, right wing politics. Groupthink in academia is also higher. It's hierarchical. There's there's tiers. And you got to agree with everybody that's above you. You want to get tenure. You want to progress. You want to get grants? It's got to be you guys got to be in line on all this shit.

1:08:13Joe Rogan:And he's like, and anybody thinks out of the box is ruthlessly attacked. And even when they turn out to be correct, no one apologizes. No, they are reluctantly agree that the person was initially correct, but they'll destroy their career if they can. He's like, the pissing matches are horrifying. And these are the people that are in charge of telling you what's real in the world. They're just like everybody else. They have ego and there's a fucking social scramble going on at all times and people are playing succession and Game of Thrones. It's like the reality is not what you're being told in the news.

1:08:53Joe Rogan:What you're being told in the news is a narrative. And when the news has a giant chunk of their money for advertising, it's paid by pharmaceutical drug companies. And they never criticize me like this is wild. Like this is wild that this this is America in 2026 and the only way you can find out what's kind of real is on the internet

1:09:16Aaron Siri:Yes and also When it comes to censorship If I said some totally crazy stupid thing about you that was totally untrue Right ignore it if I said it by government they ignore it When do they censor? They censor when it's true because that's when they're scared Right.

1:09:35Joe Rogan:If you start talking about the government being lizard people, nobody's going to - Nobody cares. Nobody comes for you. They're all shapeshifters. Nobody cares.

1:09:42Aaron Siri:But when you start talking about something that's true, that's when it hurts. That's when they, that's what they need to suppress. You think they need to suppress stuff about, I don't know, a certain island with death. If it's not true, no. But if it is true, that's when it gets scary and that's when you need suppression. Right. And also, I'll note, I went to Berkeley for law school. So I'm familiar with a little bit of what you were just talking about in that experience, too. Even though it was over two decades ago, it was going strong back then.

1:10:14Joe Rogan:It was going strong back then, but I feel like it was much more reasonable. Like, I used to love San Francisco back then. It was a great town to visit. They were smart. They were cool. They were laid back. People liked to drink. But they were fun. They always seemed like a smarter L.A. that got out of show business.

1:10:30Aaron Siri:us san francisco berkeley yeah university were two different things i completely agree and even in i mean if let's throw outside the bubble of berkeley from 20 years ago look back over 20 20 years ago who was fighting for civil individual rights it was the left aclu think about skokie illinois right fighting for the neo nazis to be able to march through a jewish town to say what they want. Who fought that case? Who protected their right to say that? Democrat, ACLU, liberal lawyers and liberal judges. And they said protecting their right to say the things they're saying is despicable, as horrible as we might find it, protects all our right to free speech.

1:11:11Aaron Siri:Could you imagine those same folks today bringing that case and deciding that way? No way.

1:11:16Joe Rogan:No way. And what's stunning is that if you asked anybody alive then, if you had ultimate access to information, Literally, you could pick up your phone and ask it any question about anything and get information instantaneously. Would people be more or less informed? You would say, well, certainly they'll be more informed. So there'll be more understanding of the value of free speech and they'll know more about that ruling and what a brave stance they took to allow the KKK to march and how it just shows intellectual superiority. The way to beat a bad idea is not to silence it is to argue it with a much better idea that you would think by 2026.

1:11:59Joe Rogan:Although they'll be way better. This would be a super advanced society of flying cars. No, no, no. It's more ideologically captured, more wrapped up in the algorithm, which I think is probably at least 50 percent fake. Like 50 percent is a bunch of bots tweeting a bunch of shit that's – they don't even believe. They're just trying to rile people up and stir people up and push certain narratives. And then people are locked into it 12 hours a day. So they're really crazy. And no one is considering things like the important – well, let's go back to old cases and let's look at why they did that. And it's like no, no, no.

1:12:36Joe Rogan:Everybody is like captured with whatever the fuck is on TikTok today. What's the latest stupid thing you're supposed to be paying attention to? And the fact that now we're at war. Right. OK, great.

1:12:49Aaron Siri:Social media and the scrolling through those videos, which is what you're describing, I think, is so troubling. First of all, my understanding is that they just show you stuff that confirms what you already believe because that's what you want to see. You want to see the things that you already agree with. So you just get this credible confirmation bias that happens, which is antithetical to thinking critically, to really opening your mind to it. And then you end up, you know, without because without actually understanding both sides of an argument without really understanding it. I mean, look, I understand the stuff about vaccines that I know which ones stop transmission.

1:13:23Aaron Siri:And I know which ones don't. Right. And I don't have to live in the world of believing, for example, they all do. I know how much death there was before each vaccine. And I know. So I don't have to say didn't ever save any life. And I don't have to say millions would die. I just, the data's the data, right? But if all you're getting is one viewpoint all the time, you're not, you get this terrible confirmation bias. And did you see this recent study that I did? I just read the abstract, so I didn't delve into it. But apparently watching social media reduces your IQ over time, you know, just doing all of that scrolling.

1:13:59Aaron Siri:That's really scary when you think about our current generation.

1:14:04Joe Rogan:Yeah. Imagine if it could make you smarter. How many more people would be interested in doing it? Right? Like if there was a thing, if you could just stare at your phone for a few hours a day and you get significantly smarter. It's a 10 point jump in IQ.

1:14:15Aaron Siri:You know, my wife calls our Wi-Fi at our house. If you find the Wi-Fi, it's called read a book.

1:14:20Joe Rogan:That's funny. That's funny. And then you hear things like you shouldn't have Wi-Fi in your house because all the signals flying around are bad for you. Like, how bad? Are you sure? Like, what is that? Like, how long have we been doing the Wi-Fi thing? A decade, two decades, three decades. This episode is brought to you by Simply Safe. We spend an absurd amount of time on our devices. And some days, there are times when I can't stand to look or even think about all the notifications that pop up on my phone. But it's not a good idea to ignore everything, like a ping from your security camera. That could be a disaster.

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1:16:45Aaron Siri:I mean, on the course of the length of humanity, that's not very long.

1:16:49Joe Rogan:That's not very long. I mean, look, I - I hope Wi-Fi's not killing us. I really do. It's so convenient.

1:16:53Aaron Siri:Look at most - Listen, obviously, most things that will just kill you get identified. Right. It's not the things that kill you immediately that are a problem typically because they killed you. And so, you know, it's the things that cause slow issues, ongoing issues. I mean, we know folks who work on high power lines have far higher rates of cancer. Study after study reflects that, for example. Which makes sense.

1:17:18Joe Rogan:I mean, if the iPod's bad for you, you know what I mean? if air pods are bad in your ears, imagine being next to those power lines. What does that do to you?

1:17:29Aaron Siri:I don't want to go down this rabbit hole because it's not my area per se, but for the whole length of humanity, when you think of the spectrum, we were pretty much only exposed to natural light, which is a very narrow band of the spectrum. When you think of waves, so as you go down on the left side of the spectrum, the waves get longer, like AM raves, really long, FM raves, microwaves, natural light, and then above that you get x-rays, cosmic rays, and anything above natural light they say, oh, it's really bad, that's just going to mess you up. And stuff below natural light, they say, well, as long as it doesn't heat up your cells, that's typically the standard our government uses, it's safe.

1:18:11Aaron Siri:So, as long as it's not heating your cell. But that's a very old standard, but it's still the one in effect today. So in any event, when you think about microwaves, they should stay away from you, even though it's below natural light. There's, you know, what is the cumulative effect of being, if you put your Wi-Fi around it under your bed every night your whole life, what is the effect? There are numerous studies that show that it does have certain effects. But anyway, it's not worth going down that road, but yeah.

1:18:41Joe Rogan:But it might just be minor or it might be cumulative, right? Yeah, and then how about cell phone signals? You can't even stop those. They're around you all the time. Yeah. I mean, if you can FaceTime someone in New Zealand right now from your phone, clearly something's going on in the air. I'll put it this way.

1:18:58Aaron Siri:Every environmental insult has the potential to cause some kind of dysregulation in your body, whether it's microplastics, whether it's you name it, okay? And the precautionary principle would indicate that until you know it's safe, the onus is on those who want to expose you to it to prove to you it is, right? It shouldn't be the other way around. I don't think anybody has to prove to you that Wi-Fi is not safe to say, you know what, based on the precautionary principle, I'm just going to turn off the Wi-Fi every night in my house because I don't know. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me because humans have been exposed to it forever.

1:19:33Aaron Siri:I've not seen the studies that validate that it doesn't cause an issue or large robust studies. But obviously, I think what I just said, some people might hear and go, well, that sounds crazy. But why?

1:19:47Joe Rogan:Why would it be crazy? If we found out that there's a particular frequency that's bad for your memory or bad for your brain and that we're using it to broadcast something, that completely makes sense.

1:19:57Aaron Siri:Yeah, except that I never think about harms the way you just said it because that would indicate that we have to find out what harms it causes. Right. To me, when I go into a car dealership, for example, I walk in and the salesman says, all right, this car, okay? And I say, well, is it safe? And the car dealer says to me, prove to me it's not safe. And I said, well, what do you mean? You can't prove it. You got to take this car. By the way, that's how vaccines work. That's how I lie. And that has become a little bit of the, depending on mostly for vaccines, but a little bit for some of these other products where it's like, you got to prove it's not safe.

1:20:39Aaron Siri:No, I don't have to prove it's not safe. I'm not buying this car. You prove to me it's no. You prove to me this vaccine causes harm or you better take it. That's the way it's approached. A little bit like that Wi-Fi and with 5G and the LTE and all that stuff. It's almost like you prove to me that doing this all day is going to cause brace cancer or else you're a kook. No, why don't you show me the study shows it doesn't do that. That's the way it should work with products and product safety.

1:21:05Joe Rogan:That makes sense. That's very reasonable. Again, I don't know. I'm not saying that it does. But what I'm saying is there's been things that human beings did and they found it was really bad for you. We've talked about it a few times. But those ladies, they used to test the x-ray machines with their hands. And no one told them. No one told them that x-rays can give you cancer and fuck you up. and these poor ladies every day when they would show up at the medical office, they would put their hand in the x-ray machine to make sure it worked. And then you see their hands next to each other. It's horrifying.

1:21:39Joe Rogan:They got horrible lesions on their hands. And it's like, it's really creepy.

1:21:43Aaron Siri:They x-rayed pregnant women until the 70s. Jeez. Until the 70s, they were x-raying pregnant women. Not with the x-rays of today that are far less radiation exposure. The x-rays of the 70s, which is a lot. They gave the, I believe the Nobel Prize. I'm pretty sure about this for the lobotomy.

1:22:00Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:22:01Aaron Siri:If I'm not mistaken.

1:22:02Joe Rogan:I think they did. I think you're right. I think they did. Find that out. Jamie, put that into our sponsor perplexity. The Nobel Prize, Peter Berg told me about the origins of it. And I was like, wait, what? There was a guy who made dynamite. Dynamite. And there was a false story about his death. And in the newspaper, they called him the merchant of death. And he realized it. And he was like, oh, shit, I got to change my PR. I got to change my image. And so he came up with the Nobel Prize. He started awarding this prestigious prize. And then instead of him being connected with blowing people up with dynamite, he became connected with the most prestigious prize in all of medicine and all of government and the peace, the Nobel Peace Prize.

1:22:49Aaron Siri:It's pretty crazy. It's amazing when you have money, how you can influence the world to think certain things about, in his instance, him, in other certain products. Exactly. Absolutely.

1:23:00Joe Rogan:But what's really stunning is you're also allowed to influence the people that actually deliver the news, which is, you know, that's the crazy one. Like Callie Means talked about that. Like they're advertising not because they want to sell their products with the advertisement that they're putting on the air. They're doing that too. But they're also ensuring that this steady stream of revenue that's going to these networks, they won't be opening up any lines of investigation into the vaccine injuries. Like, that's not going to happen. You're not going to see a giant CNN piece about COVID-19 vaccine injuries.

1:23:38Joe Rogan:It's not happening. It's not happening. You're not going to hear much about anything. It has to be a big fucking story where they have to say it. Or to just mention a judgment real quick and then move on, moving on.

1:23:52Aaron Siri:The Rasmuton poll, I don't know if you remember this one, found that I believe one in four, and I think that's right, but I'm not sure, 100%. People said they believed they knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine or knew somebody that died of COVID vaccine. When you have that many people with that lived experience, and yet the mainstream media, as you just said, was still able to continue to push the narrative around COVID vaccines the way they did, the Nobel Prize.

1:24:22Joe Rogan:Wow. Nobel Prize-related lobotomy refers to a 1949 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine awarded to Antonio Agas Moniz, a Portuguese neurologist, for developing the prefrontal lobotomy. I believe that continued until the 60s, by the way. Yeah, imagine that.

1:24:40Aaron Siri:He got that prize in 49. They're like, good job. Meaning the medical profession as it stood in the 60s when the measles vaccine was rolling out. We're still doing this, by the way. Oh, yeah.

1:24:49Joe Rogan:I think they stopped lobotomies in 60s. Was it 67? He developed something called a leucotomy, which was slightly different than what became known as the lobotomy, which we know as like the ice pick method. What was his?

1:25:03Aaron Siri:It's also called the leucotomy. So that was this Freeman.

1:25:09Joe Rogan:That's the guy who was the doctor. I think they called him even Dr. Death or something. He did a ton of lobotomies all over the country.

1:25:17Aaron Siri:Unfortunately, today, you don't need a lobotomy, apparently, to have a lobotomy. Just to spend a lot of time on social media and get your information from certain places. It's so bad for people. It seems to be you can maybe end up in the same place.

1:25:28Joe Rogan:It's just hard to recommend a certain amount of it. It's like how much Twinkies should you eat a day? I don't mind if you eat Twinkies, but if you're eating Twinkies all day long, you're going to be fucked up, man. And that's how I feel about like social media interactions. But I do think it's an important way to distribute information. It's if you're a – say if you're working for some corporation and you know something fucked up is going on and you could put it up on Twitter and with details and facts and people could look into it. You can open up a line of reporters and investigative journalists that are going to find this, expose it, and you could really break a story that is good for everybody.

1:26:09Joe Rogan:Having a way to communicate ideas like that is fantastic. Everything else, like all the arguing, all the shit that people do back and forth, you're just rotting your brain out. And we're all guilty of it if you're on it.

1:26:22Aaron Siri:I mean, during the COVID pandemic, when all of these government overreaches were occurring, but for the existence of social media, you know, podcasts like yours and other alternative platforms. Right. The information in many respects wouldn't come out if you didn't have Peter McCullough on. Yeah. Robert Malone on. And if Fox and some just that little portion of the, I guess, more traditional media story wasn't willing for a time period to have folks on. I mean, trust me, when I started doing vaccine-related work a decade ago, I never thought a single outlet, whether it's Fox or CNN, would ever have me on.

1:27:00They had me on numerous times until vaccines kind of like, all right, let's not touch that again.

1:27:06Joe Rogan:Was this during – this was during the Biden administration then. And I think part of that was because it was a point of contention between the right and the left, right? It was the right opposing the draconian measures that the left who is in power and we got to get the right back in power because we're all about freedom. So I think there was a little bit of that going on there. Right.

1:27:27Aaron Siri:For sure. There was some of that going on, as you pointed out, I believe, in the past when Trump was promoting the vaccine. We're not taking that vaccine. And in the moment, Biden was like, we're taking the vaccine. So I was saying it.

1:27:39Joe Rogan:Why would you trust him and whatever his vaccine is like? That is so crazy. These people are fake.

1:27:44Aaron Siri:I mean, if Trump came out tomorrow and said everybody should get every vaccine out there, you know, see what would happen. I don't know. That's the way. We'd stop saying it. Yeah, if he really got into trans kids, they'd put a ban to it immediately.

1:27:58Joe Rogan:Yeah, it's weird. It's weird to watch. Weird to watch us so divided and at each other's throats. And I really do think that a giant percentage of the uptick and the craziness is just social media. I don't think people are designed for it. Just thank God Elon bought Twitter because if he didn't, we would not have the kind of access to the actual truth or the real data. It would all be suppressed. You would never find out about it. How would you know about these studies? You're not going to go scouring through journals. Even if you do, what are you going to do? Are you going to get on Rumble and talk about it?

1:28:33Joe Rogan:That's probably the only way you can. And if anybody from Rumble tries to share that on Twitter, they'll get banned. So it's like we were in a real pickle. It was a bad spot. Yeah. And it was just a few years ago.

1:28:46Aaron Siri:Yeah. Which is nuts. We could have gone a very different direction. Very different. And I'll use an analogy when they, remember the airlines, you know, because CDC required masks on planes. Yeah. When that got struck down by the courts, okay, a number of airlines said, we're going to keep our mask mandate. I don't know if you remember that. You know, they proudly came out. The CO said, we're going to keep it. Half of them said they were going to keep it. The other half immediately lifted the mask mandate on planes. and those that decided to keep it, they dropped it within a day or two, I think, or something like that really rapidly because economically they were losing business.

1:29:19Aaron Siri:And I think that changed the center of gravity on that issue. I think Elon buying Twitter X basically changed the center of gravity on censorship whereby without that, they might've all just kept going even in the worst direction. And they saw they were losing market share to X once he bought it and he didn't have censorship, I think that can form their conduct.

1:29:43Joe Rogan:Well, it was also indicative of how people actually felt versus what was suppressed. Like when you realize that there's... Well, have you ever seen like how people identifying as non-binary and trans dropped off like right after purchase of Twitter? It's because people got a chance to talk about it now and you can criticize and people could put up memes and they can call it a mental illness again. And then all of a sudden everybody was like, hey, what are we supporting? Men with penises in the women's room? Like, did we get hypnotized? Like, what the fuck happened? And now you're seeing even prestigious mainstream media publications talking about the dangers of gender transition for young kids.

1:30:28Joe Rogan:Wow. Okay. So what happened? What happened was Elon bought Twitter and people were out to actually accurately gauge what people are willing to tolerate and what they actually want versus what's being shoved down everybody's throats with censorship and with mainstream media narratives. They just keep piping back and forth pretending everybody agrees with them.

1:30:48Aaron Siri:That's one piece of it. They are also, by the way, a lot of the hospitals and doctors are getting sued.

1:30:53Joe Rogan:Right.

1:30:54Aaron Siri:Left and right on this. In fact, you know. Especially after that first ruling. Right. We have – I can't talk about it. But very, very troubling matters, which includes suicide and hiding it from parents, school districts. I mean it's really troubling stuff.

1:31:18Joe Rogan:Do you have children?

1:31:19Aaron Siri:Yeah, I do.

1:31:19Joe Rogan:I do too. And one of the things you realize if you have children is that they are very malleable and they want to fit in and they are subject to social contagions. And that social contagion can be dressing up golf. It could be like whatever it is. Like they want to fit in and they're experimenting. They're kids. And if you just decide, oh, you're a boy and then you bring that kid to it and you're giving them all this positive attention and you're giving them all this positive feedback. And then you go to school. I'm trans now. And everyone says you're brave. Like for awkward kids, that is absolutely enticing.

1:31:55Joe Rogan:Yeah. And not only that, they do it in clusters. Like Abigail Schreier has written about this, that this is a lot of these girls have autism. And a lot of these girls, they're socially awkward and they're very uncomfortable with their body. And they're going through puberty, which kind of freaks them out already, freaks out any girl. Yeah. And then something comes along like this. And now you've been taken to a doctor and had your breasts removed and you're 15. That's fucking crazy. and to say anything in opposition to that somehow became you're a bigot or you're a nazi or you're transphobic this is crazy talk like you're talking about very malleable children doing something you can't even get a fucking tattoo if you're 15 why can you get your breasts removed that's nuts

1:32:40Aaron Siri:unfortunately it became a very big business the number of centers in america that perform these surgeries exploded. And so with that explosion, you need clients. Like every business, it needs to feed, right, that business model, right? And so -

1:32:58Joe Rogan:That is so evil. It's so creepy to think that people are willing to talk people into that just for money. But they've done it with so many other things. It's not impossible to believe that It's true.

1:33:14Aaron Siri:It's scary. A lot of times, if you follow the money trail, you can see how things develop and where they go. It often helps, you know, puts in perspective. And look, rare is the person that says, I'm evil, I'm bad. I mean, people find a way to justify things. They find a way to excuse them and, you know, find, you know, the, well, I'm doing more good than bad. Justification in their minds.

1:33:39Joe Rogan:Or there's the diffusion of responsibility that comes with being a part of a corporation that's doing something. Hey, look, I'm just an accountant. Or hey, I'm just an engineer. Or hey, I'm doing – I don't want the company to move in this direction. However, I do own stock.

1:33:52Aaron Siri:So as it goes up. Especially in public-traded companies, which brings us back to the very beginning of this. Right. Which is – that is what happens in those corporations.

1:34:01Joe Rogan:Should that be a thing? What? Like if you could redo the, if you had a magic wand and you could completely redo the economy, would you have the stock market? I mean, isn't it enough that people just buy things, sell things, your company's worth money because it makes money? Isn't that enough? Why do we have to complicate it? Why do we have a stock market? This episode is brought to you by Mando. Most deodorants out there are basically cologne for your armpits. They don't actually stop odor. They just smother it with a heavy fragrance. It's like blasting heavy metal in your headphones when you're jackhammering to block out the noise.

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1:36:46Aaron Siri:I don't know if the stock market itself is the problem. I mean, stocks, the whole idea is just to find a more efficient way for me to sell you shares in my company. That's all it is. But the underlying problem is not the market, in my view. It's not the existence of the stock market. It's the government intervening into the market forces in a way that do not result in a good outcome. And often that is at the behest of industry. When government – there needs to be some government regulation. So that's the problem.

1:37:22Joe Rogan:The problem is the corporations have money. They can use that money to influence laws, influence government.

1:37:29Aaron Siri:That is a significant part of the problem because, look, most regulatory agencies are born out of some crisis, right? Right. So they often start as a great idea, like people wanting to do good, members of our Congress wanting to do good. But then who's got the time, money, and inclination to influence that regulatory agency? You? Well, you do have some money. But you, me? Who? No. It's going to be, even wealthy folks don't have it. They're not going to do it. It's not even the lobbyists per se. It's the very industry they're trying to regulate. They have the money, time, patience, inclination to do that, to create the revolving door, right?

1:38:14Aaron Siri:Right. Think about it like this. Article 1 of the Constitution creates Congress, right? First article. And what's its purpose, primary purpose is to pass? Laws, right? How many laws a year does it pass, you think, approximately? About 200, okay? Our agencies on the federal government, do you know how many regulations which have the same exact weight as law, they pass every year? Can I guess? Yeah. 2 ,000. It depends on the year, but often more. Really? Yes. There's a chart on this. I'm sure it can be pulled up. But it's something to that effect. Depends on the year. But somewhere between, let's say, 100, 300, 2000s on the other side.

1:38:54Aaron Siri:And who are those folks passing? Are they part of the Article 1, the constitutional branch, supposed to pass laws that are elected representatives? No. Now, the unelected bureaucrats sitting there and you've named your alphabet agency that you've probably never heard of that passed these regs that are the same force of law. And who's really has, again, the time and inclination to influence them? It's often the very industry. So it starts as a good idea, but unfortunately it ends up being what the literature calls. This is the political science literature came out of Harvard and Yale and all those places.

1:39:32Aaron Siri:They don't want to talk about it today. Captive agencies. Okay. That's what they often become. CDC, FDA, and very much are to varying degrees, depending on what they're doing, are very much captive agencies when you look closely at it and you understand it. That's true of many other parts of the government.

1:39:53Joe Rogan:And so, well, particularly people don't know, a lot of people don't know that haven't gone down these rabbit holes that a lot of these people, it's a revolving door. They leave the FDA and then they go and work for the pharmaceutical drug companies. They make a lot of money.

1:40:08Aaron Siri:Yes. Like Julie Gerberding, who was the head of the CDC in the 90s, that oversaw some of the most controversial disputes about what, whose products, Merck's vaccine products. And then after her, she cleaned all that up, left CDC and went to work for who? Merck. Making tens of millions of dollars, I believe, she's made over the time that she's been there. So she did good. She got rewarded. You think if she didn't do good, she wouldn't get rewarded? You don't think other people see that in the federal health? Of course they know. They all know. Of course.

1:40:46Joe Rogan:So it's the golden parachute, and everybody strives for it. If you can get that post, you can get the top of the food chain over at the CDC. Guys, see you in about five years. Then in five years, you're thinking about your Lamborghini. You got a yacht in your future. It's just, it's kooky. Yeah, I mean.

1:41:04Aaron Siri:It's kooky that it's legal. Look, I don't know if it's as nefarious as that in the minds of people in public health. Let's put it that way, since we're talking about public health officials. But I think that it has a corrupting influence that cannot be detangled from the fact that they're human. It will influence them. I don't think it's like— There's also a precedent.

1:41:26Joe Rogan:There's a precedent that's been set with many people before them, so it's something they look forward to. If you get this job, you will likely get a job like this afterwards. A bunch of people have. And so you think about that while you're trying to get that job. It's part of the motivation is financial reward. Absolutely.

1:41:42Aaron Siri:Well, there was a – It has to be. There's a Pfizer executive who was serendipitously recorded specifically saying that. Something – I have the exchange in my book. It's something to the effect of, well, you know, those who are working at the FDA, you know, they're eventually going to come work for industry. So they don't want to, you know, hurt industry too much. And the person asking the question says, well, you think that's bad? He goes, yeah, it's bad for America, you know, but not bad for the companies. That's the problem. That's exactly right.

1:42:15Joe Rogan:Well, this is the thing about having an obligation to your shareholders, which brings me back to the whole stock market thing. I know this is a kooky thought, but I mean if we never had the stock market in the first place and you didn't have an obligation to your shareholders to consistently make more money every quarter. Yeah. If people could just accept the fact that you own this business, this person, you make a certain amount of money, everybody's doing great. Like why have all these people making money just moving stocks around, insane amounts of wealth, manipulating systems to crash stocks?

1:42:46Joe Rogan:And there's people that are like in public office that say things that aren't necessarily true that influence the market. And it turns out they were totally wrong. And then you find out that they bet on it and they made a bunch of money in the stock market. This is crazy. This is crazy. And it's all true. And it's all legal, which is so fucking bizarre that in a time where we are completely aware that all this stuff is taking place.

1:43:15Aaron Siri:All right. Can I put that into three different buckets? I'll put it in three different buckets. There's the bucket of making products. Right. There are companies that make products. There are companies that provide services, including financial services that can be useful. Like, you need a mortgage if you can buy a house. You can't afford it. So mortgage products are a service that are brought from the financial industry. And then there is, I think, what you're talking about, which is the part of our economy that is finance. It's just moving money. It's just moving numbers where they've got high-speed computers that are trying in micro fractions of a second to beat out the other guy.

1:43:45Aaron Siri:to basically triage and make money based on that adds no value to our economy. Products and services add value. And everything you see around that we're sitting in right now is made by a company, right? And I'm not aware of a system that has been more efficient at producing products and services that improve the lives of others than the free market system with some regulation. I'm not aware of one. Socialism doesn't do it. We've seen that in action. Communism does not do it. We've seen that in action.

1:44:25Joe Rogan:We need to just do it right.

1:44:26Aaron Siri:Dictators. Kidding. Clearly. So I wouldn't throw out the whole system is what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that - I'm not saying that. Yeah. I'm saying that that part of it's good. Now, when you break the alignment of economic self-interest of the companies, the market interest, to whatever it is, protect consumers, that's when you're a problem. And that is the idea, or at least they sell it as the idea from a lot of government regulations. Well, the company is not on its own going to do what's right in this instance. And so we need government to do it. And if government really only stepped in when it was truly needed, it would be a good system.

1:45:13Aaron Siri:You're right. But the system often breaks when they step in when they're not needed. Sometimes when they step in and have the opposite effect, when they're really just protecting the industry at the expense of consumers, which happens too often.

1:45:29Joe Rogan:Is the benefit of the stock market – and this is, again, nonsense, right? I'm not an economist, clearly. But if we had never invented it, if human beings had never come up with this idea, if instead we just had a free market, what has the stock market, what has publicly traded companies, what has the ability to own stock companies and hedge funds and all that stuff, what has that done for innovation and for progress and for creating more products? Do you think it's encouraged more products and encouraged more activity in the economy and we're further ahead than we would have been if no one had invented it?

1:46:07Joe Rogan:Because it seems like at the very least, it's a weird opening for people that just move money around and add no value and extract enormous amounts of wealth. So that seems like you've got a hole in your pipe. Like why are people that aren't even involved, why do they get to make all the money on this? Like what is going on here? You're doing a weird thing that I don't know if you had to do to achieve the same result that you achieved with a free market capitalist society that doesn't have a stock market, that just has a bunch of companies making money and everybody doing the stuff they do. It's like, is it a necessity is what I'm asking.

1:46:49Aaron Siri:Well, outside of my air expertise, but. Definitely outside of mine. I mean, I'll give you my musings. Yes, please. So this is just my off-the-cuff musings, and that's something I actually really want to think about more. But so when I think about companies going public, it certainly appears to help drive capital to those companies because hedge, venture capital funds, a lot of times they're exit strategy. So I'm willing to give you all this. I'm a venture capital. I'm willing to give you all this money to start this company because I know my goal is three to five years from now, it can go public and I, the venture capital fund, can get back X amount of my money.

1:47:38Aaron Siri:That's the exit strategy for that investment. Now, if there was no efficient market to do that, meaning you couldn't just have a publicly traded market where it's just easy to have this public offering, what would that do to venture capital funds? Well, I mean, would they still invest as much? They might. And instead, they might just focus on hard money returns. They want companies that really just make money, cash on cash versus this immediate bubble of equity inflation that happens when you go public because it's now liquid, the ownership. Right. Market caps. I don't know if that answers your question.

1:48:24Aaron Siri:No, it does. Well, I don't think it does because your question was a good one. And it's far more sophisticated than what I answered because you're saying, what does it contribute to society? Right. I don't think it contributes anything. It contributes. I just answered it so narrowly and said, well, it might add some – it might entice venture capitalists. Though I don't know if – I don't even know if what I just said is entirely – like they might still do it anyway because they'll just might do the best thing. Now, what does it add to society? I mean, it would be harder to have like a retirement account in the way you have right now to own stock.

1:48:59Aaron Siri:That would be more difficult to put your money in and buy shares of Coca-Cola. Would you prefer for big corporations to be owned by certain families or would you rather them be owned by the public?

1:49:12Joe Rogan:I think you should be allowed to keep your company in your family if you own it. Well, you should be. Well, you certainly can look at New York Times.

1:49:21Aaron Siri:The New York Times the family kept control if I my understanding again, we're outside of my normal area of expertise But the family I my understanding has the controlling Votes in that company, but it's publicly traded as well in the New York Times.

1:49:34Joe Rogan:Yeah, I'm not mistaken I know people that have taken their company public and regretted it Like it's too much shit you deal with too much nonsense afterwards and then they're like it wasn't worth it Just for the hassle and the quality of life. I would have never done it if I had known this

1:49:51Aaron Siri:I guess it depends what they wanted.

1:49:53Joe Rogan:Yeah, I guess it depends what they wanted. But the question is, like, if a bunch of people are making money that aren't contributing, they're just, like, siphoning money by moving money around all over the place. Like, isn't that leaky money? Like, if you don't really contribute anything, you don't provide any value, and you're extracting extreme wealth, don't you have a leak in the pipe? It seems like if that money was just being distributed normally, like the buying and selling of goods and services, that would be a much more, like, honest society. But would it have the same amount of innovation and would it have the same amount of productivity?

1:50:30Joe Rogan:Or is that productivity not just enhanced by this flood of capital but also encouraged so it stimulates everything? So having these vampires sucking on the pipe, ultimately it does move numbers around and it gets more stuff out there, which also encourages innovation. I don't know.

1:50:52Aaron Siri:I mean, I think that there's a gray area between the second and third bucket. So we were probably like products and services. Maybe we'll make that one bucket because those can have value deciding from many of them. And then at the extreme, there's like just like triage nonsense that happens. I put my supercomputer as close as possible to the stock exchange. and so I can make money on fractions of a fraction. Yeah, it's crazy. And then there's that gray zone in between where there's mortgages good, okay? Help the American family achieve their dream of owning a home. Now, mortgage-backed securities, ooh, maybe not so good.

1:51:40Aaron Siri:Mortgage-backed securities that are double, triple sliced into all these tranches, getting worse, going down that road, there's a degree where you're getting further and further away from the very point of that financial instrument that had good. So I think that there is a point at which, yeah, no good. But I think it's hard to talk in generalities in my mind. If you have a specific example, let's go down that road. Well, Bernie Madoff is the best example.

1:52:07Joe Rogan:Right? Obviously, everybody had to know something. There was some shenanigans taking place because the returns were too crazy. But look out how many intelligent people invested money with him because he was so successful.

1:52:21Aaron Siri:My old office in Manhattan when I used to work at Latham Watkins was I think three floors above Bernie's office in the lipstick building. It was on 23rd. I think it was on 24th. Nothing to do with him. Anyways. Zero. Okay, but Bernie just straight up. Stole. Just stole. I mean that's not even a thing. Come on. No, no, no. You're right. He just stole money and gave out fake returns, as far as I know.

1:52:49Joe Rogan:Yeah, yeah, yeah. He had people thinking that they were making all this money.

1:52:53Aaron Siri:Yeah, he's just a pyramid scheme, basically. 100%. That was eventually going to fail. I mean, it only could go on for so long.

1:52:59Joe Rogan:Well, I think it fucked up because of the 2008 crisis, right? They think he could have kept it going if there wasn't the crash. Wasn't that what did him in? There's always going to be a dip, so it was only a matter of time. I mean, he was going to get— That was a big one, though, and people wanted their money back, and he was like, yikes.

1:53:15Aaron Siri:I mean, that's an incredible scheme. It's amazing that somebody could even pull that off, frankly.

1:53:22Joe Rogan:It is crazy, and it is incredible, but it just shows you that this is a weird system that you can pretend to be moving money around, and you don't have any products. But it corrected. It did. It's a good point, because he did go to jail. He corrected.

1:53:34Aaron Siri:He went to jail, and man, did he become the post-trial of, like, foster fraud.

1:53:39Joe Rogan:Don't do that. Don't do that. He became, don't do that. Yeah. It's just – it's probably a stupid question because I don't know anything about economics. But I was just thinking that like couldn't we have the same world and not have that? Wouldn't that be more honest and more beneficial? But it would have to have happened from the beginning. It would have to be like there was never publicly traded companies from the beginning.

1:54:04Aaron Siri:All right. Let's think of a company you like.

1:54:06Joe Rogan:Coca-Cola. You like Coca-Cola? I like a little Diet Coke every now and then when I want some brain fog. All right. I don't want a nice taste in my mouth and an aspartame hangover. Okay. I'll think of another one. I don't know.

1:54:20Aaron Siri:Chevy. Chevy. Okay. Chevy. So I don't know. Without the ability to raise money in liquid capital markets, would Chevy have grown to what Chevy became? Or at least in the speed at which it did that then revolutionized automotive and other industries? Probably not. Maybe not.

1:54:41Joe Rogan:Yeah, maybe not.

1:54:41Aaron Siri:Maybe not.

1:54:42Joe Rogan:But you wonder, like if people were motivated and people were ambitious, and we always have been, if that wasn't a part of our economy, I wonder. I bet it has a pretty big impact when you put it that way. You think about something as big as Chevy.

1:54:59Joe Rogan:But it's just the motivation of money is always going to be there. And if people ignore it because it's inconvenient and it doesn't align with their ideology, you've been captured. And this is why I think what you're talking about all the time is so hard for people that are true believers to swallow because it makes you have – you're forced to reformulate your entire worldview. you. If you've been duped that hard by something like the actual data on vaccine efficacy and, you know, who's really profiting and why it's set up the way it is and what the studies really are, when you realize you've been duped that hard, it's a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people.

1:55:43Aaron Siri:Absolutely. But I will say this, you don't need to go down a rabbit hole, okay? Because that happens to a lot of people with vaccines I've seen. not the majority not most but it happens to some where it's like oh my goodness if the government's lying or not telling me the truth about these products then what can i believe and i and you know people some folks can go down some some different alleys and i would say that i would really truly i've not seen anything like vaccines vaccines really are in their own bucket because of that immunity. It's what I call original sin in my book. There really is no product, no product that I'm aware of that operates in this kind of landscape.

1:56:28Aaron Siri:Like I said, every other product, the market force will, to varying degrees with wrinkles, correct for the issues because there's economic self-interest. They broke that with vaccines. So we've gone from three shots following in 1986, one before the first year of age, At the beginning of 2025, you know how many shots it was that a baby got honored before their first birthday? Take a guess.

1:56:54Joe Rogan:72.

1:56:54Aaron Siri:No, no, that's their whole childhood. 29. 29 by their first birthday? Yes, honored before their first birthday. They went from 3 to 29 shots, including in utero. Now, with the recent changes, it's down to 19. And the reason I focus on the first year, most of the shots in the first six months of life, is that's when the baby is going through really critical stages of neurological, immunological development, right? Synapse. Think how small a baby is, okay? And so they're really susceptible to various effects. Also, babies can't express what's going wrong with them, okay? So now in the normal course, okay, in the normal course, you've got a product.

1:57:36You've gone from three of them in 1986 by the first year.

1:57:41Aaron Siri:you're up to 29 beginning of 2025. Now you're at 19 still. During that period, you've gone from under 10 % of kids had a chronic health issue in the early 1980s, according to the data. You now have over 40%. Some data show over 50 % of kids having chronic health issues, often multiple times the rate. And what are those chronic health issues that have exploded? To be sure, by the way, any environmental insult can cause dysregulation in the body, okay, including a pharmaceutical product, including vaccines. But when you look at those chronic diseases that have exploded, almost all of them have an etiology relating to some form of immune system dysregulation.

1:58:24Aaron Siri:Look at asthma, look at atopic issues, look at tics, look at ADHD. Nobody thinks about it this way, but if you look at the public literature, there's immune markers that have gone awry in kids with ADHD, okay? So you look at that. Now, I'd say, okay, the lawyers, those who would hold these companies accountable would look at that, and then they would start looking at the data. And I'll show you what some of the data shows. We talked about the Amish earlier, for example. The Amish that I represent in New York, there's three schools. The New York Health Department decided that it doesn't like what the Amish beliefs are.

1:59:01Aaron Siri:It wants the Amish to adopt their beliefs and abandon their real religious beliefs and to give their kids these vaccines. Otherwise, they were going to impose crushing fines on these three Amish schools. Three schools, by the way, which means a room, no electricity, a teacher, you know what I mean? On Amish land, they don't take tax money. They pay taxes, but they refuse to take tax money taught by Amish teachers. And so amongst those families of those three schools, there was like 160 or something kids. And what we did is we did a survey. We asked them, what health conditions do those kids have, those 160 kids?

1:59:39Aaron Siri:Many of them are already older, too. So you would know their health outcomes. And this is all in our court papers. It's all in a federal docket. Anybody can go and read it for themselves. Amongst those children, you would expect to have, because like one in 10 kids approximately have asthma, you would expect to have like nine cases of asthma. You'd expect to have six cases of this, five cases. They have none, zero of the chronic health conditions plaguing kids in America today. And the approximately 10 or so studies that have been done, and I'm going to bring this back to my legal point, the approximately 10 or so studies that have done that compared kids with no exposure, meaning zero vaccines, to kids that have had one or more vaccines show the same outcome.

2:00:23Aaron Siri:Kids with zero vaccines, almost none of the chronic health issues that face kids today in America. kids with one or more vaccines, multiple rates of the chronic health issues facing kids today. Now, that data all exists. I put those studies in my book. Anybody could read them. I even put the Amish information in my book. It's all cited. You can go look at it yourself if you're out there. Some of them are even on PubMed. The market could have corrected for that if you could hold those pharma companies accountable, but you can't.

2:00:53Joe Rogan:Is it correct that the only instances of autism they found in Amish kids were adopted kids?

2:01:01Aaron Siri:There are data and some reports that reflect that. But if we – so there are that. But those are more news reports. Those are not – somebody will criticize you, by the way. You're going to get criticism and say, well, that's not a peer-reviewed study.

2:01:17Joe Rogan:Well, I had a follow-up question that made me clarify. Yeah.

2:01:20Aaron Siri:Well, and so we can say we can go move on to what does the peer review literature show if you want.

2:01:27Joe Rogan:The follow up question would be, are they even being diagnosed? So if they're getting Amish care and Amish teachers and Amish. Is it possible that there are some kids that are just behaving odd that would be diagnosed? Like this is the criticism. Yes. People say like this is when you hear some mainstream suit talking on television. And, well, there was always someone odd when we were kids. You know, there's no – they just – the diagnosis is different today. That's why it's 1 in 12 boys in California. They're overdiagnosing. And I'm like, no. No, I have friends that have – I have multiple friends that have nonverbal children.

2:02:04Joe Rogan:I'd never had that when I was a kid. That was not normal. That was not a common thing. It was very, very, very rare.

2:02:10Aaron Siri:The notion that autism is just better diagnosed and that's the only reason for the increase is, I don't know a better word for it, I'm going to say nonsense. Even if you look at the – because they've changed the DSM-5, which is what we're up to, the diagnostics manual. That is the psychiatric manual that has the criteria for diagnosing autism. It has changed over time. But when you even just look at severe autism, just severe autism, which California has very good data on from the 70s and onward into today, it's exploded. So the notion that we just have better diagnosis is not a serious point.

2:02:53Aaron Siri:But putting that aside, the Amish do go to doctors. Do they go to Amish doctors? No. They go to regular doctors. The Amish, for example, could even go in a car. They just can't drive a car.

2:03:05Joe Rogan:So they can get an Uber?

2:03:06Aaron Siri:There's different—I should be more— Somebody orders it? I should be clearer about that. Just like every religion, there are different, you know, communities. And so there's like old, old line Amish, and then there's old line Amish. Got it. You know, and Christianity and Islam and Judaism, and all different—you know, there's different degrees. Black hat Jews and so forth. Right. So in many respects, they do still go. But, you know, as I was told by one of the main folks who I interact with, and I've been up there and I've slept there and I've interacted with them. He told me, he said, yeah, you know, there are a few that mistake got some vaccines.

2:03:49Aaron Siri:And he goes, one of those kids, they just don't act right. He said it to me. But we don't see that with our other kids. And I'll tell you this about the Amish community. They don't have phones. not you know smartphones they have old school phones some of them they don't have TVs when they're with their kids they're with their kids when they're there at the end of the day they really are so much more in tune when I spent time with them and when I went up there I mean it's incredible you know we have lost it's a hard thing to experience maybe for somebody who keeps like Maybe the closest thing I think of is like those who observe the Sabbath biblically, you know, so they're just totally locked in.

2:04:32Aaron Siri:They lock in with their families for a day or things like that. And so they're very in tune with their kids. They know if those kids have health issues. And those kids don't have those issues. But forget the Amish. Go to the rest of the kids in the other studies that are not Amish studies. The 10 other studies that I just told you about. One is three pediatric practices that have vaccinated of unvaccinated kids. There are a whole line of studies of nothing to do with the Amish community. But if you do want to focus on autism, okay, which is just one potential issue from vaccines, by the way, what you find in the peer-reviewed literature is that 40 to 70 percent of parents who have a child with autism report, still report, that they believe vaccines cause their child's autism.

2:05:21Aaron Siri:Okay? 47%. That's after how much billions of dollars to try to tell them and gaslight them and convince them that vaccines don't cause autism. Apparently, no matter how much you beat these families, they're just not going to change their lived experience. And what vaccines do they point to? They often point to the vaccines given in the first six months of life. When you ask them, what vaccines do you think cause your child's autism? They'll say the vaccines given in the first six months of life. And then they'll also point to MMR vaccine, which is given no earlier than one year of age. Okay. And so on behalf of ICANN, which is the Informed Christian Act, a nonprofit that our law firm represents, we sent a Freedom of Information Act request, FOIA request, to the CDC.

2:06:09Aaron Siri:And we said, hey, your website says vaccines do not cause autism. Great. Please give us the studies that show that Hep B vaccine, given three times in the first six months of life, do not cause autism. please give us the studies that show that dtapp vaccine given three times in the first six months of life do not cause autism same thing for ipv vaccine for pcv vaccine and for uh um hip vaccine okay each one of those vaccines is given three times each in the first six months of life. 15 injections. Okay? Okay. You say vaccines don't cause autism. These parents are saying these vaccines cause their child's autism.

2:06:55Aaron Siri:Provide us the studies. They never gave us the studies. I sued them in federal court. I didn't go to Texas. I sued them in Southern District of New York. Okay? Not the friendliest territory to bring that kind of lawsuit. Okay? Days before the hearing, I get a list of 20 studies finally, also from the DOJ, because they represent the CDC. Maybe they think I don't read. So I looked at the 20 studies. I've read them. 19 of them have nothing to do with the vaccines given in the first six months of life. They were all either MMR studies or studies of an ingredient that wasn't in those vaccines. One of them was an Institute of Medicine review from 2012 that canvassed all the literature on whether DTaP vaccine does or does not cause autism because the CDC and HRSA, which is the agency in HHS that fights vaccine injury claims, asked the IOM to look at whether DTaP causes autism because it remained one of the most commonly claimed injuries still, according to them.

2:08:01Aaron Siri:And the Institute of Medicine came back and said, we can only find one study on DTaP and autism. And in fact, it showed an association between DTaP vaccine and autism. But the IMF threw it out because they said there's no unvaccinated control in it. So they threw out the studies based on VAERS data, if you know what that is. So I called up the DOJ attorney. This is days before the hearing. And I said, I got the list of 20 studies.

2:08:29Aaron Siri:i said are you sure that your client the cdc wants to settle this case basically on the basis that these are the studies they rely upon to claim that vaccines don't cause autism the vaccines in the six first six months of life do not cause autism because that's what the lawsuit was about that foyer request he went he called me back and he said yeah they want to settle it i said all right I gave him another chance. Those 20 studies were put into a settlement agreement between the CDC and I can my client. The DOJ signed it on behalf of the CDC. I signed it on behalf of my client. And a federal judge in the Southern District of New York entered as an order of the court in 2019, I believe it was.

2:09:10Aaron Siri:And there it was. I mean, I had done years and years of work fighting with them to try and figure out, show me the vaccines don't cause autism. This was the crescendo. This was the end. I mean, when their back was to the wall, they had nothing. There are no studies. They could not produce one that showed the vaccines given in the first six months of life do not cause autism. And here's the thing they left out. There is one study out there regarding hep B vaccines and autism. It's from Gallagher and Goodman out of the University of Stony Brook's in the peer-reviewed literature. And it showed that kids that got hep B vaccine versus those that did in the first month of life had three times the rate of autism.

2:09:48Aaron Siri:statistically significant gallagher goodman university of stony brook it's on pubmed that is the only study of hep b vaccine and autism you will find in peer-reviewed literature if you're going to do it based on the science on the published literature that's the only one out there that dtap vaccine study is the only one out there for dtap given in the first six months of life

2:10:06Joe Rogan:so when this narrative which you hear all the time on these panels on these news shows Vaccines do not cause autism. That has been thoroughly debunked. Where's that come from?

2:10:20Aaron Siri:Vaccines, amen. That's why I call my book Vaccines, Amen. The crowd cheers.

2:10:25Joe Rogan:Have you seen those live shows where crowds cheer?

2:10:27Aaron Siri:But this is what I'm talking about. This is why I wrote the book. I wrote the book because in 10 years that I have litigated 100, 200 lawsuits against federal and state health agencies, that I have deposed the world's leading vaccinologists, including Dr. Stanley Plotkin, you go down the list, and chasing them when they're in a deposition, when they're back as against the wall in a federal or state lawsuit, and they have no choice but to admit the truth or give the evidence, put up or shut up, what I have found is that the claims they make about vaccines versus the reality are completely different.

2:11:06Aaron Siri:And it is disjarring. When I came into this, had you told me, yeah, they don't have any studies that show vaccines don't cause autism for the first six months. I'd be like, you're crazy. Get out of here. They tell you it's thoroughly debunked, thoroughly studied, the most studied thing ever. They have a mountain of science. Joe, there's a mountain of studies. You know how big it is? It's so big. And you know what's on top of that mountain? Another mountain of studies. You know how? Another mountain. There's so many studies. They're drowning in studies that vaccines don't cause autism. but then when you demand it not the bull crap that they say on TV but you actually demand it that's the result and you could pull it up on the internet by the way that court stipulation it's right there you could also hear me depose Dr.

2:11:53Aaron Siri:Stanley Plotk and the world's leading vaccinologist where I said to him I said doctor you know and you have this clip's on the internet I said I said there's no studies that support the DTAB does not called autism right? And he's, and at first he said, well, I, I said, well, what do you think the IOM concluded? He goes, well, I would assume they said it doesn't. I showed it to him. He goes, oh, it's the world's leading vaccinologist. He didn't even know this. He goes, oh, okay. There are no studies. Okay. He goes, so I said, shouldn't you wait until you do? Shouldn't you wait until you have the studies that show that DTaP doesn't cause autism to then tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism?

2:12:27Aaron Siri:You know what he said to me? No, no, I don't wait. I don't wait because I have to take into account the health of the child, he said. I said, so for that reason, you're willing to tell parents that vaccines don't cause autism, even though you don't have the data to support it? He said, absolutely. You can play that clip if you want. It's on the internet. And then I deposed in a case about vaccines and autism. It was about it, Dr. Catherine Edwards, who is one of the four, I guess, leading vaccinologists in the world, one of the four editors of the medical textbooks on vaccine, which is called Plotkin's Vaccines.

2:13:01Aaron Siri:I deposed her about vaccines and autism. And I said, do you have a study that shows hep B vaccine doesn't go to autism? This was after this court stipulation, the court order I told you about. She didn't have any for hep B, for hep, for the ones I just took the first six months of life. So yes, they say on TV, it's thoroughly debunked, but I'm telling you that is a belief that is not science, that is not fact, it is not based on data, it is based on pure belief.

2:13:31Joe Rogan:And they say it just like they say, you know, Jesus Christ is Lord.

2:13:35Aaron Siri:I think they believe actually in vaccines more because they'll kick kids out of school in some archdiocese even, in some other Christian schools far less. Most archdiocese won't if the kid won't get vaccine. So I actually think they believe in vaccines more than Jesus in some places, by the way. What an amazing job of gaslighting and propaganda they've done. But I just want to, I just got to be clear because anybody hearing this might think that that just sounds crazy. But I implore anybody who heard me say that, pull up the court order yourself, look at it yourself, watch the depositions, go to PEPMED, see for yourself.

2:14:15Aaron Siri:Oh, and by the way, do not rely on AI because I've done this fun job with them. I'm like, do hep B vaccines cause autism? It's been thoroughly researched and there's no studies. I go, okay, great. So how do you, and I say to AI, I go, how do you reach a scientific conclusion? Well, you use peer-reviewed studies. I go, wonderful. So to conclude that hep B vaccine does not cause autism, you need peer-reviewed studies. That is correct. Wonderful. Now please put it in a list. These studies that show hep B vaccine does cause autism.

2:14:45Aaron Siri:give me three studies i've had i've had uh chat gpt makeup studies literally hep b vaccine does not cause and i'm like that doesn't exist give me the pub med number you are correct i aim to provide uh a valid information but in this instance i fell short literally made up a i'm not joking made up a study i've had it i've done this for fun with friends and so i'm like watch this watch And finally, I'll get it to admit that the only study is the Gallagher and Goodman study. That is the only study. I will get it to admit. It takes about often 45 minutes to an hour. Really? Yeah. It takes a while, but it will eventually admit it.

2:15:21Aaron Siri:And they all do it. Grok does it too, by the way. Grok's better, by the way. Better? But it's bad too. And they will say, you know, on all of these questions, they will make stuff up. And unless you know, like, I know the universe of studies. I know it's baloney.

2:15:37Joe Rogan:Can I ask you this? Do you think that these large language models are programmed with certain truths that they can't fight against? Or do you think it's because they're pulling from so much bullshit on the Internet and so many bullshit narratives on the Internet from trusted sources that will tell you that vaccines don't cause autism? Like there's a ton of, you know, major newspapers, major magazines. There's a ton of them that have talked about how it's been thoroughly debunked. And they'll quote doctors and scientists that don't list any specific studies, but they'll say we've done exhaustive studies.

2:16:12Joe Rogan:They've been thoroughly debunked. They'll say that and they'll print that. And so is the is the AI just pulling from so much bullshit online that it like looks through all the noise? And this is like 89 percent say vaccines do not cause autism. Therefore, it must be true. Or is it programmed to say, hey, this is what you say. Vaccines don't cause autism.

2:16:35Aaron Siri:You must hold me in very high regard. You've held me to incredibly complex economic questions and now language model questions. You're a very smart guy. I appreciate the compliment so far on that score. With that said, I mean, I don't know the answer, but I will speculate because I don't know the answer. that I'm going to guess, I'm really guessing, that it might be a mix of some programming. Because Google, for example, if you go and you search for Aaron Siri Substack, you get Paul Offit Substack. Why? how in the world do you get Paul off at Substack when you search for mine and mine's like it's not even like on the first page I don't think it's on the second maybe they fixed that I don't know so some of that

2:17:36Joe Rogan:is that using Google?

2:17:37Aaron Siri:that's using Google last time I've done it let's do it right now

2:17:42Joe Rogan:have you seen Robert Epstein's work? Robert Epstein's been on my podcast a few times unfortunate last name But he has nothing to do with that. He is a data scientist. Well, I don't know what his original background is, but what he does is he is very vocal about how they're using these coordinated – it's very curated search results. And through that, especially during election times, they can take a lot of people that are undecided voters and swing them a very noticeable number. Like I forget what the number was, but it's a large percentage, 10%, 20%, something like that. So if you Google something about, say, Hillary Clinton, for instance, during that first election, you would get all these positive articles.

2:18:26Joe Rogan:If you Google Trump, you would get all these negative articles. And if you asked it certain things, it would give you things that were completely contrary to that. So you'd look at that first. And I think that's you and Paul Offit. It could be. Maybe it's fixed at this point. How do you want me to word this? Aaron's Siri substack. Yeah, just do Aaron's serious sub stack and just do that on Google. Just do that on Google. Then let's see what the results are.

2:18:49Aaron Siri:But while he's pulling that up, I'll add that there might be some of that. Again, I'm on speculation territory. And then separately, though—

2:18:56Joe Rogan:So it goes right away to you.

2:18:57Aaron Siri:It goes right away to me this time.

2:18:59Joe Rogan:You know what it is? They got Jamie's fucking data. And they know from your metadata. If you ask a question in a word way, it might come up differently. It's like, what— No, that's what I did.

2:19:11Aaron Siri:Try Aaron's Siri injecting freedom sub stack. See what happens. That could be the way we search for it.

2:19:19Joe Rogan:This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. I don't know if you guys know this, but my website, JoeRogan.com, is powered by Squarespace. And it's great because with Squarespace cutting edge design tools, anyone can build a website that perfectly fits their brand or business. I'm talking a fully custom website in just a few steps. Thanks to Squarespace's AI-enhanced website builder. Head to squarespace.com slash rogan for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch, use the offer code ROGAN to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is brought to you by Athletic Brewing.

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2:20:41Joe Rogan:Go to athleticbrewing.com slash Rogan to find stores near you or get brews shipped right to your door. Use code ROGAN to get 15 % off your first online order. Near beer, terms and condition and certain limitations apply. Athletic Brewing Company, fit for all times. See, that shows up different. Oh, well. See, I'm telling you, when you add words, it kind of really fucks up all Google searches. Yeah, but I don't see Paul Offit in there. I don't see Paul Offit in there. Have you talked about this publicly before?

2:21:15Aaron Siri:No, never. Oh, too bad. No, I just did. I just, this happened, this was actually literally just a few days ago.

2:21:21Joe Rogan:Well, I think one of the things that Robert Epstein, because he's been on my podcast, he's been on multiple podcasts, but he's been talking about the dangers of these curated search engines and how it's essentially election rigging. Like you're manipulating a statistically significant number of people to one side or the other, and you could do it by curating search engines.

2:21:40Aaron Siri:Well, the experiment we just did might reflect that my first theory might be less of that, right? Because look, there it is. It's happenstance. That's why I said I have no idea. I'm speculating. But it could be – it could not.

2:21:54Joe Rogan:It could also be people – It could also be your own algorithm because maybe you were searching for Paul Offit. Maybe you had Googled Paul Offit's full of shit. Just before that. I don't need to Google that. That's not... I don't need to. I've had flow when they've added this, but they definitely added on the screen what they call personalization for these results. Uh-huh. Results are personalized. Try without personalization. So that could have something to do with... Interesting. Well, let's try it without personalization. Let's see if it changes. Well, I'm already down a different route. Oh, you already put Paul Offit in there?

2:22:27Joe Rogan:Yeah, I already started searching for that. So if you do without personalization, it doesn't delete the prior one? Interesting. Personalize it knows you're a right winger. Well, they started using AI a long time ago. It knows you're a radical.

2:22:38Aaron Siri:But I would speculate that the probably bigger component is the who's got, again, it comes back to who's got the money to understand how these AI algorithms work and to maybe put these stuff out there that it's going to most likely read from. I mean, when you do AI, you can get that. I see that like crazy scroll of all the things it's looking at, right? Right. So if I am a pharma company and I've got a multibillion-dollar budget every year to influence and to market and so forth, I'm going to deploy that in the way that's probably the most effective. One of the things I probably would do is maybe do the things that would influence the results on AI, potentially.

2:23:19Joe Rogan:Yeah, I would do, especially if there's no regulations. That's the weird thing about curating search engines. If it's like your search engine, you can kind of do whatever you want, especially if your company – like wasn't it like one of the major tech companies after Donald Trump won in 2016 that had a meeting that were like, we can't let this happen again? Was that Facebook or Google? Do you remember, Jamie? It was like very famous that people were like, what are you talking about? You – what? How can you say that? How can you even say that? Even if you – you're right. Like the idea that you can somehow or other stop someone from being elected if the public wants that person to be elected because you disagree with it is kind of a crazy thing to say out loud.

2:24:03Aaron Siri:Well, you know, I'm thinking more about your question. So when we found that thing with Paul Offit, we found that thing with Paul Offit a few days ago. My social media manager and my – I've got a lot of folks at my law firm. And we have somebody who does like Google AdWords stuff and SEO stuff. And then we have another guy who does the web-related stuff. I know they did some things. And maybe with my little measly budget, it had that effect. Perhaps. And so, Matt, so if that would go to my second point, that with enough dollars – and who cares about my – I mean, I don't think Pharma cares about my subs.

2:24:38Aaron Siri:Trust me, they're not scared of my subs.

2:24:40Joe Rogan:Well, I don't know about that because even if you don't have a ton of subscribers, it's still out there. And all it takes is one podcast appearance. appearance like this one and people go there and then all it takes is one investigative reporter to talk about it to get a it's a weird time for stuff like that. All right well let's see if two weeks from now it goes back. Yeah they'll never put it back they'll never put it back but if you guys did do something about it that does make sense that they corrected it and you complained about it.

2:25:12Aaron Siri:Well no I think that you know they had brought up doing like keywords and stuff like that because I did – there was some emails about – I remember trying to fix it. I'm amazed that it looks like it did. Well, I don't want that smoke. So maybe it's – it just kind of shows you –

2:25:28Joe Rogan:They just need to be – yeah, shine light on it. It's the best disinfection, sunlight. I just don't like the idea of curated search engines. It's really spooky. It's no different to me than curating information on social media platforms based on whatever your ideology is. Like, I don't think you should be able to do that in terms of like, I don't think the company should be able to tell you you can't see certain things. And YouTube was terrible about that during the pandemic. All the things that turned out to be true could have got you banned from YouTube. The lab leak theory kicked off. You know, the fact that the vaccines, even if you get vaccinated, you still can catch COVID.

2:26:06Joe Rogan:Remember, that was a breakthrough infection. It was extremely rare, extremely rare breakthrough infection. Never heard of it. And now it's everybody, literally everybody. And then it became this weird fucking, everybody did these weird mental gymnastics where they started repeating, oh, but it stops hospitalization and death. And like, what are you talking about? You never said that before. You are saying that they were saying it stops hospitalization and death. And you don't even have anything to gain here. You just don't want to be wrong about your decision to get injected and to promote it, which is nuts.

2:26:40Joe Rogan:It's like people are doing the man's work for the man. They've signed up as volunteers in the propaganda army and shaming all the people that didn't go along with it and never apologizing. No one wants to apologize for calling people plague rats and telling people that they should have their children taken away from them. Nutty, weird, dystopian shit.

2:27:02Aaron Siri:They don't realize that they are creating more vaccine hesitancy with that kind of conduct than anything that you and I could do on this podcast at all. And like they say, you know, the CDC webpage on vaccines and autism has now been updated. And it says now that there's effectively no studies to show the vaccines in the first six months of life do not cause autism. It now says that. And that the CDC has misled the public on that score. and people trashed, the mainstream media trashed Bobby for that while instead of celebrating it as an opportunity to correct course of transparency. Honestly, people are more likely to trust our federal health agencies when they're honest, when they're apologized, when they're willing to admit mistakes.

2:27:50Aaron Siri:They're not there yet though, unfortunately.

2:27:52Joe Rogan:No, because it's still a part of their political ideology. It's a part of their clan and they don't even think about it. They don't look into it. They don't read any studies. They don't read any synopsis of any studies. They just go full bore ahead. It's been thoroughly debunked, and they'll argue with you. It's been thoroughly debunked. This is all nonsense.

2:28:12Aaron Siri:You know many depositions I've taken of vaccinologists, pediatricians, infectious disease experts, and immunologists where I will say something about this. These studies show that, for example, the studies show that children that have had cancer and measles have lower rate of cancers, and they'll go, well, that's just nonsense. Those studies are just junk. I'll say, have you read the studies? No. Have you seen them? No. But see, but they knew already. They've already reached that a priori conclusion. I remember my deposition, not to go back to autism, of Dr. Edwards, where I said to her, you have any studies that show the hep B vaccine does not cause autism?

2:28:50Aaron Siri:She said, no. I said, but there is a study that shows three times rate of autism amongst kids that didn't get hep B vaccine. And she says, well, I don't think that's not a good study. I said, what study is that? She goes, why don't you show me the study? Because she hadn't read it. She doesn't know. Why don't you show me the study? That's because it doesn't fit within the belief system, unfortunately, when it comes to this. And it's so easy because, like you said, all you got to do is just say, they're just an anti-vaxxer, and you die. Exactly.

2:29:26Joe Rogan:Exactly. And it's all – when you have a company, like whatever company it is, whether it's Google or Facebook or whatever, and that company operates on an ideology that's not grounded in reality and then they enforce it across their platform, it's very frustrating and really nutty to watch. And just thank God there exists some alternatives. Like you would need a crazy person worth a ton of money like Elon to just go and buy it. And then also show, hey, it's still the number one platform for distributing information.

2:29:59Aaron Siri:In the same way that what Elon did for social media, if he could do that for search, that'd be great. But I think search is dying. I think AI is searching now. Yes, AI is going to take over. I don't see -

2:30:11Joe Rogan:I hardly ever search things anymore.

2:30:13Aaron Siri:Everybody goes to AI these days from what I could see.

2:30:15Joe Rogan:Because I can ask a question. Like, how did this come about? I could ask follow-ups. Are there any dissenting opinions? I love doing that.

2:30:22Aaron Siri:It's good, but it also requires less thinking. So it's bad in that regard. But yes.

2:30:26Joe Rogan:Well, it depends on how you're using it. What I'm using is usually when I'm writing. I'm writing about a certain subject. I'm like, well, who were the first people to discover these Aztec pyramids? You know, I'll get into something like that. Like, what were they looking for? You know what I mean? And it's almost like you're talking to an expert. So instead of it being like something that I use to think for me, it's like a super smart friend I'm bouncing questions off of. You could find so much about things so quickly as opposed to having to go through article after article after article and like and that's the one I'm looking for.

2:30:57Joe Rogan:What did court – how did he trick those people and give them up their land? There's only fucking 600 of them. How did they do that? You know, like you need to – like AI is fantastic for that kind of shit. But if you're using it all day, like a lot of kids in my school – my kids' schools are getting busted for writing papers that are 100 percent AI. Like, they were a moron. Seventh grade.

2:31:21Aaron Siri:It's like PhD genius level paper. Yeah. Also, these 12-year-olds are fucking wizards. It's hilarious. It's not good. I mean, you saw those studies that came out. Again, not my area, but I only read the abstracts. I don't know. But the more that technology has been adopted into classrooms, it appears the more detrimental it has been. and actually the markers of what you would consider an educated or education or intelligence. 100%. It's a distraction.

2:31:53Joe Rogan:It's like there's no way it could be good. You're on TikTok all day.

2:31:56Aaron Siri:But if you're using AI, the one thing I will say, depending on the topic, but you probably should do it for all topics, is never just rely on the output. You've got to ask, show me the primary source and look at it yourself. It's so critical in every area.

2:32:08Joe Rogan:Especially if it's something controversial. I mean, generally I'm asking questions about something I'm looking up that's not that controversial. in terms of whether or not it's argued.

2:32:17Aaron Siri:You ever look up yourself?

2:32:18Joe Rogan:No. No, I'm not. Jesus Christ. I don't look up myself ever because I don't want to know. I don't want to know people's opinions. I don't want to know what it thinks of me. I couldn't care less. I think it's much better to just keep on going. If you're in a public eye, including you now, everyone is subject to an opinion. And there's certain opinions that are just, they're not people that you would ever want to talk to. And those kind of people exist. There's going to be shitty people out there, and their opinion written down looks just like your opinion. Better to not have any of it. Better to not watch any videos.

2:32:54Joe Rogan:Better to not listen to anything. Just be a good internal judge. Be objective about your own self and be self-critical to the point where it's healthy and leave it alone. I was watching – like I was talking to this the other day. I was watching this lady. It was this very boring, not very exciting lady talking about how bad the Beatles were. And I was like you should shut the fuck up like Beatles are incredible. You're just a moron. You're just a dull-brained Fucking dork just wandering through life spread, but you're allowed to you're allowed to have those opinions It's like good luck finding a bunch of people that agree with you, but you're allowed to try But I don't want to be a part of it.

2:33:35Joe Rogan:I don't want to be washing Swimming through bullshit opinions all day long. I don't think it's healthy

2:33:40Aaron Siri:Yeah, but I do think facing the opinions and the views, substantive opinions, views of those that don't agree with you is an important exercise in life and in any – in every area, frankly. I mean I'm – when it comes to the work that I do, I welcome having debates with those who claim they are the vaccine experts.

2:34:03Joe Rogan:Well, this is – we're talking about a very different kind of thing than looking at yourself. Yeah, you're looking up hard line data. And it's very important what you do because it's crazy to say that being honest in this regard is courageous. But it is courageous because I've seen you attacked. I've seen crazy shit that people said about you. And it's like, good Lord, are you paying attention to what he's actually saying? Or are you some bot from somewhere, some fucking bot farm in Vietnam that's been hired to push a narrative? I don't know. but there's a reality to data that's undeniable that needs to be promoted.

2:34:45Joe Rogan:And I think that's what you're doing. There's a reality to the data. I don't imagine a whole lot of people are lining up to debate you about this.

2:34:55Aaron Siri:Well, Paul Offord and I had an exchange on the internet. First we had it on Twitter. In person? In Twitter. No, he won't do it. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. And then he moved it onto Substack and it's all there. It's a great exchange. And I've offered him, and not, just to be clear, not like a gotcha debate. I've offered him to have a debate where we each get 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, and we each get to present the evidence. So we have a screen. We can put up our evidence, and we can go back and forth with equal amount of time so nobody's talking over each other. It's civil, and it's based on the substance.

2:35:31Aaron Siri:I've offered him to do that. But the truth is I don't need to debate him. I've already debated the world's reading vaccinologist, Dr. Stanley Plach, in a nine-hour deposition. People talk about, we should have a vaccine debate. Well, I've done that. That was it. It's nine hours. It's all on the internet, and you can watch it. And when my client put it out there, and it ended up on YouTube, this was many years ago, it had like millions of views at one point. And then YouTube took it off. And then people keep putting it back on. And it's just a deposition. It just keeps coming back and forth and back and forth.

2:36:01Aaron Siri:Why are they taking YouTube? Leave it up. Stop. Well, I don't know if they're still taking it down right now. I hope now the climate's changed enough. They used to take it down and down. And I've done Senate hearings where they – but those vaccinologists, they don't want to show up anymore.

2:36:15Joe Rogan:I offered Peter Hotez that opportunity on the podcast. And I told him I would donate$100 ,000 to whatever charity of his choice. And he, like, mocked that number as being insignificant. I'm like, well, tell me what the fucking number is. Like, just come on. And I was going to have him and RFK Jr. Because he was talking about me having RFK Jr. on. They're saying a bunch of lies. And like, well, instead of saying that, and I think he, God, I forget what term he used for me. I'm like, Peter, you've been on my podcast twice. So what the fuck are you talking about? Like, why are you behaving like this?

2:36:46Joe Rogan:This is crazy. What did he call me? like it was something about some alt-right adjacent or neo-fascist adjacent podcast.

2:37:01Aaron Siri:The point is it was ad hominem instead of substance. You gave him an opportunity to show he was right in front of the world. He is the vaccinologist. Bobby, just a lawyer, obviously will drool on himself. Like, debate him. What's the big deal? I only did this after he did that.

2:37:17Joe Rogan:I didn't I didn't he had said all this stuff about me because Bobby was on the podcast It was one of the rare times I'd have to go after they ever go after anyone on Twitter, but I was like stop

2:37:28Aaron Siri:I remember why you saying that this is stupid and I remember a whole bunch of people added in like they were willing to add I thought it was over. I forgot the number. It was in like a million two million was in the millions Willing to and he still would not sit down and do it and the argument that you'll often hear is they'll say well I'm not good at debating. It's, you know, he's a lawyer. He'll use lawyer tricks. Peter Hotez is a lawyer? No, no, no, no.

2:37:51Joe Rogan:Oh, he's a lawyer. Bobby's a lawyer. Bobby's a lawyer.

2:37:53Aaron Siri:Oh, they'll say that he's a lawyer or I'm a lawyer, you know, and what they don't, but, but, you know. Data wins. Exactly. And I would let that data win. The substance should win.

2:38:04Joe Rogan:I want you, if you're right, I want to know. I don't fucking know. You tell me.

2:38:08Aaron Siri:I'm willing to debate Peter Hotez here any day. I don't think he's going to do it. I'll debate Paul Offit. any of them they can all in fact Stanley Plotkin just wrote me a letter after all these years after I deposed him first time ever wrote me a letter what'd he say he said I heard you wrote a book I heard you wrote a book and your deposition went very very long and I wasn't prepared enough he's world's leading vaccinologist and I will be credited with saving millions and you will go down in history as the one who's harmed and killed children that's what he wrote me a letter and I I wrote him back a response, and I said, look.

2:38:45Aaron Siri:I said, Dr. Plotkin, I said, thank you for your letter. I appreciate that you're writing me finally. Because I've reached out to him before, one time at least. And I said, look, I said, I think we can agree on one thing. We want to save as many children as possible. I want to save children from infectious disease. That's important. I agree. But I also want to save children from the harm from these products. products, they matter too. They're not just, there shouldn't be accepted casualties. The tens of thousands of families have contacted my law firm, devastating harms from these products. They matter too.

2:39:21Aaron Siri:And I said, let's work together. Let's work constructively. I said, because look, at the end of the day, if you don't address this, if you don't address this issue, I said, history is not going to remember you for the good. History is going to remember you for all the harm you caused it. Because when people look back in history at products that cause devastating harm, which vaccines can do, they don't remember the good those products did. They remember the harms that people ignored, that were overlooked, and those were just cast aside. I said, that will be your legacy. I said, but there's time to correct.

2:39:53Aaron Siri:He hasn't written me back. Of course he hasn't written you back. I posted both letters on my sub stack, and I tweeted them out. I figured they could do some good that way. So they're available to everybody to read.

2:40:02Joe Rogan:Well, I think it's a very unique time that this message can get out there because what they did when they removed liability and they gave them blanket protection like that, they opened up the door to a bunch of people that really don't give a shit about you. They just want to make as much money as possible. There's the scientists. This is what I always describe, like these companies. You've got the people that are making these drugs. You've got these really interesting, brilliant scientists. And then you get the fucking money people. And the money people don't give a shit. They just want to make more money.

2:40:40Joe Rogan:And they're both together. So you have this weird contradictory world where you have like some amazing pharmaceutical drugs that helped so many people and kept people alive and cured diseases. And then you got the money people who want everybody to get shot up because it's going to make them more money. And those two working together is a very bad mixture, especially when you have mandates. And you mandate that these people have to be able to inject you and inject your children with this thing that's going to make them money and they have zero liability. Like how could that possibly go well? Knowing what you know about human beings, who would sign off on that?

2:41:20Joe Rogan:I don't know. That's crazy.

2:41:22Aaron Siri:You know, I had a business idea for you. Okay. Want to hear it? Sure. It was a great business idea. Listen, we're going to sell this product. Okay. We're going to meet.

2:41:28Joe Rogan:Let's go. Okay.

2:41:30Aaron Siri:We can inject it into people. Are you worried it's going to hurt people? Well, I'm a little worried. I want to hear your story first. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry about it. Because governments can give us immunity liability no matter how many people we hurt or kill. Okay? Oh, how did you work that out? Yeah, I know. Now, the weird part is you might be saying to me, you say, Aaron, Aaron, wait a second. But who the hell is going to take that? And I'll say, Joe, don't worry. The government's going to mandate it too. And you might say, okay, but what if people rise up? And I'll say, Joe, don't worry.

2:42:00Aaron Siri:They're going to spend billions convincing the public it's the best thing since sliced bread. And then you're going to say, but what if people still don't want to pay for it? And I'll say, don't worry. The government, through a program, literally pays for half of all vaccine, guarantees payment to the pharma companies, even if people cannot pay. Sounds like a good investment. No liability, guaranteed market, free promotion, guaranteed payment. It's the most – if it wasn't vaccines, you'd say it's insane. It is insane, and that is the business model of vaccines. That literally is what I just said.

2:42:37Aaron Siri:It's just – so you're right. It's perverse. But this thing that you were just saying before about, like, the money men who want to just make money, like, look, we live in a capitalist system where we have tapped into that.

2:42:53that self-interest, but we try to harness it for good.

2:42:58Aaron Siri:So every company has that to some degree. You know, people have that to some degree, but the idea with capitalism is, yeah, but you got to channel that and you got to do good. You got to do a good product. You got to do a good service. You got to do something positive. And if you don't, you'll be held accountable. So it's got guardrails.

2:43:16Joe Rogan:Yes.

2:43:17Aaron Siri:So, you know, it's, you know, because I, you know, people are like, well, what are you saying? and people are sitting there on a farm company with horns and evil. No, but they don't have guardrails. And they've gone totally off the rails. Do you like my business idea?

2:43:32Joe Rogan:It's a great idea. I'm going to talk to my lawyer first because I don't want to go to jail.

2:43:37Aaron Siri:Oh, you're right.

2:43:39Joe Rogan:I'm thinking of Satan's society. I'll get locked up for the rest of my life, especially if he killed a bunch of people, which is really crazy that none of these people do wind up going to jail. They pay giant criminal fines, and then they slip away. I mean, look at the Sackler family. They haven't been jailed, right? Wasn't there like they were going to get immunity in favor of like$6 billion or something crazy, but then a judge kind of put the kibosh on that after Painkiller, the Netflix docudrama came out?

2:44:06Aaron Siri:Yeah. Critically, too, I would say it's like, remember during the bank crisis, there were the banks that were too big to fail? Yeah. So they want to touch those. The Sackler family, to me, it's like the smaller bank that they could—I mean, it was bad. But they could sacrifice them. They could sacrifice that pharma company. Are they going to sacrifice Merck, Sanofi, Pfizer, GSK, any of those guys? Are they really going to sacrifice them at the end of the day, no matter how much harm they do? I don't know. It's hard to see it.

2:44:40Joe Rogan:Well, listen, I'm glad you're out there. and I'm glad you can articulate these points so clearly and passionately because people need to hear it. They need to know what the actual data is, what the actual story is about all of it. And it's better for all of us. And as hard as it is, a pill to swallow, people need to get that glass of water and start swallowing. So thank you very much. Thanks for being here. I really enjoyed it. And tell everybody your book. Did you do an audio version of it? I did. Did you read it? I did. How much work was it? Oh, my gosh.

2:45:13Aaron Siri:Oh, my gosh. That was a lot. I thought I could read, by the way. I was like, I could read. Yeah, it's reading. And then I realized when I had to read the book, it was like I couldn't read anymore.

2:45:25Joe Rogan:Oh, that's hilarious. Oh, my gosh. Did you ever have to read an audio book? No, but I do ads for the podcast, and Jamie will tell you. I'm always like, fuck. I'm always fucking up sentences. Then you got to redo them. It's brutal. Yeah. Just talking is fine. Right. But when you have to read out loud, like your tongue gets all tripped up. and I'm like,

2:45:43Aaron Siri:I go to federal court. I can argue. I go to Senate hearings. I can like, I'm like telling the audio guy because we're in the studio alone. I'm like, I really am. I think I'm, you, I, it might seem like a total moron, but I, I probably am a moron, but I'm just a little bit, I don't know. I felt like a, such a moron. Yeah.

2:46:01Joe Rogan:I have friends that have read their own books

2:46:02Aaron Siri:and they feel the exact same way. It was so painful. Oh my goodness. It's like, but I did it. It's done. It's out there on Audible and the books on Amazon.

2:46:12Joe Rogan:vaccines. All right, Aaron, thank you very much. It was an honor and a pleasure having you in here. I really appreciate it. Thank you. Goodbye, everybody.

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