#2466 - Francis Foster & Konstantin Kisin

11:54Joe Rogan:That was a big risk. The idea that you could just take the guy out and that's a wrap, I mean, it doesn't seem like it's well thought out.

12:04Francis Foster:Well, I mean, I guess they would say Venezuela, right? Like regime adjustment. It's a completely different kind of... Of course, of course.

12:12Joe Rogan:This is a religious fanatical... It's a totally different kind of country. Also, it's a country that's been under threat for decades, right? So they've been preparing for this kind of thing.

12:21Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, and also with Venezuela, it wasn't a regime change. Practically everybody who was in the old regime is still there. It's a regime adjustment. Exactly, exactly. Exactly. So Delcey Rodriguez was one of the senior leaders in Maduro's regime. They just took out Maduro and his wife. They put Delcey Rodriguez there. But the whole structure, the whole leadership, the whole party is still in place. So they've just what they've done is they put Delcey at the top and they've said to her, look, if you fuck about, you're going to get what your boss got. So you're going to follow what we say. You're going to do what we say.

12:57Konstantin Kisin:you are going to open up the oil refineries we're going to build it we're going to you're going to start pumping oil out you're going to stop messing about with hezbollah which they had training camps in the island of margarita which is a little caribbean island two and a half hours away from miami training camps you can't have that you're not going to be fraternizing with the cubans and you're going to play ball and essentially venezuela is now a colony of the

13:20Joe Rogan:united states that's what it's now become that's wild well there's also the kurt metzger angle which is hilarious. Metzger cornered me one night at the mothership, and he explained to me that this was all about the 2020 election and that Maduro somehow or another had something to do with rigging the 2020 election, and he's going to say it as a part of his testimony. He's like, just wait, just wait, mark my words. He's convinced of this. he goes down the rabbit hole to the lava like he passes and he's like this rabbit hole's been covered up it goes deeper and he keeps going till he's at the fucking center of the earth he's a funny guy though oh he's hilarious he's hilarious he's mentally ill he's hilarious he's one of the funniest people i know like ever fantastic joke writer too i mean he's just great all around but jesus christ like some of his nutty theories they go so far oh absolutely i've

14:25Konstantin Kisin:been in bars with kurt where he starts talking to me and i'm like kurt i i don't even know what

14:30Joe Rogan:we're talking about anymore well he changes he changes conspiracies mid-sentence he starts bringing up some shit from the 70s the church committee and this and that and mk ultra and Don't you know about monarch like what? Slow down like not everybody knows what you're talking about, but I think

14:49Konstantin Kisin:This is and I love Kurt, but this is kind of where you feel that the truth isn't enough So you there needs to be something else Well, there needs to be something that goes deeper than that and sometimes there is don't get me wrong Sometimes it does go deeper, but sometimes like you're making connections where there are no connections Like it's pretty simple with Venezuela what was going on They were fucking about and they were doing it for a long time and they were doing it in America's backyard And they had warning after warning and Maduro the way I'd push back against Kurt is I'm really sorry Kurt But Maduro ain't that bright?

15:25Joe Rogan:Well, I don't think he has to be that bright to Finance and make sure and arrange things because they did there was like some Something connected to the voting machines that were there. They made those claims Here's the conspiracy theories. Who was that woman? Sidney Powell, was it? Yeah. Here we go. She's another fun one. Post-2020 from Trump allies like Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani claiming Hugo Chavez, Maduro's predecessor, developed rigged software to export to U.S. firms. These were promoted by figures like Mike Lindell. He makes a great pillow. You should listen to him. And amplified on social media.

15:58Joe Rogan:But courts and fact checks rejected them, including Fox News. Right. 787 million Dominion settlement.

16:07Francis Foster:Yeah, I was going to say I was pretty sure that those claims were debunked.

16:11Joe Rogan:Yeah, not to Kurt. He's like, you guys don't know where the hard drives are. They're in the center of the earth. We got to get there. Yeah, that doesn't make much sense to me. But neither does this idea that you're going to take over a country's oil supply. You know, like that, you know, we'll just take it. The problem is from the outside. like the rest of the world you you look at this unnecessary aggression by the United States government and then you tack on whatever propaganda they have already been spitting out about America for the last 20 or 30 years and then this war with Iran gets really ugly because that's how you start a World War III you start a World War III by doing something that other than people that wanted this forever who else thinks that's a good idea who else thinks it's a good idea to just attack a country that isn't doing anything.

17:04Joe Rogan:They haven't done anything. Like, if you proof that they have developed depleted uranium and they've got it up to a point where they've got it to what percentage does it have to be? Like, they're at 60, right? But that's way more than you need. Way more than you need, right? So, it shows that they're at least ramping up their production where it's possible to get it to whatever it needs to make it.

17:27Francis Foster:That's way more than you need for civilian use, right?

17:29Joe Rogan:Right. Right. But that's still it's not clear that that justifies an invasion when North Korea has nuclear weapons. Right. Yeah. Right. It's like, do we just want we just try to prevent them from ever getting to a point where they're like North Korea. Who the fuck is worried about North Korea? Zero people. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Look, if you're trying to take your business seriously, you've got to level up your website. Mine, Joe Rogan dot com, is powered by Squarespace. It's a no-brainer because it does all the hard stuff for you. They've got everything in one place. You can lock down your domain, make your stuff look clean and professional, build your brand, get paid, all of it.

18:11Joe Rogan:Go to squarespace.com slash Rogan and try it out for free. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code Rogan to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain.

18:24Francis Foster:I think the difference as you correctly said earlier is these people are very different to the North Koreans right North Korea Wants to be left the fuck alone Iran does not want to be left alone Iran wants to dominate the region That's why they fund her ass. It's one they fund Hezbollah. It's why they fund the Houthis is why they are doing shit That's why the Gulf countries and Israel are very worried about them, right? So that's the difference I think and then there's the you know, some of the people we've had on the show who Iranian have talked about the what is it called? 12th Shia Islam? Is that the...

18:57Francis Foster:I can't remember the details, but basically they have a kind of messianic vision of what's going to happen. And they believe that when the world ends, that's when the prophecy will be fulfilled. You don't want those guys with nuclear weapons, right?

19:11Joe Rogan:That's a good point.

19:12Francis Foster:Yeah. So from that perspective, it's different to North Korea. And so that's, I think that's part of the thinking. But your point is interesting to me about the fact that this doesn't reflect what people, you know, as we're not Americans, but it doesn't seem to have been part of the policy platform of the Trump election at the last election, right? No, not at all. But I do think there is some kind of strategy behind all of this, and I'm very curious what that is. Because I guess if you think about it logically, you would say, well, is it an attempt to effectively push back against China and Russia, infiltrating all these countries, right?

19:50Francis Foster:China and Russia were very close with Maduro in Venezuela. Very, very. Like Francis is saying, Hezbollah training camps, Isla Margarita. Where was the oil going? Right? Same with Iran. I mean, Iran sells its oil to China and sends suicide drones to Russia to use in Ukraine. So maybe it's that. Maybe the strategy is you're trying to push back against Chinese and Russian influence in all these countries because you can't attack them directly. Because you can't attack them directly, right? Yeah. But this is all just guessing on my part. And that's what I'm really curious. We're going to do some interviews on this trip.

20:27Francis Foster:I want to get someone on the show who can go, this is the strategy. This is what we're doing. Because I think, as we were saying earlier, it's not very clear to most people what the rationale behind all of this is. But I also don't think this sort of like mad dog Trump idea is true either. I think he has a strategy. I'd just love to know what it is.

20:47Konstantin Kisin:And it's very interesting because there's been talk about regime change in Cuba. And one of the things so. I think that's next. Genuinely.

20:57Joe Rogan:Oh, my God.

20:58Konstantin Kisin:I think that's next. So when Chavez came to power in 99, what he did and not enough people talk about this is he turned what was very corrupt, admittedly, liberal Western style democracy into a communist dictatorship. And how do you do that? You can't just literally do that overnight. So what he did is he allied with the Cubans and Fidel in particular, Fidel Castro. Venezuela provided Cuba with cheap oil, which helped to keep the Cuban economy afloat, because Cuba has been going broke since however many years, 40 odd years. And what Castro did was he gave him the boots on the ground in Venezuela, but also the technical expertise and know-how in order to change a Western liberal democracy into a communist state with permanent surveillance, secret police, subjugate the population so there was no chance of them ever being able to revolt and turn everything, like I said, into a communist state.

21:56Konstantin Kisin:So by what they did in Venezuela, Venezuela can no longer support Cuba. So Cuba is literally now withering on the vine as a result of them knocking out the Venezuelans. so it's going to come to a point where you say cuba effectively going to go bankrupt which could precipitate an uprising a revolution by people when people can no longer eat and that would mean that that country is then weakened finally they can get rid of the communist regime there and they can have a different type of government one which will be far more sympathetic shall we say to working with america and being an american island possibly that makes sense to me in

22:37Francis Foster:way what i don't understand about the iran thing is like what is the end goal here well you've got the reza pahlavi the shah's son i mean he left iran a long time ago as a kid right the you know the idea he's going to go back in there and be welcomed by the masses maybe that's true

22:55Joe Rogan:it's like daenerys returning to the iron throne yeah but daenerys had three fucking dragons But you know what I'm saying like she left when she was a baby

23:06Francis Foster:That's right and the p it's not like the people are desperately I don't know maybe the people are desperate for the return of the well

23:12Joe Rogan:It seems like some people are desperate for a change there the people that were protested people that risked their lives 100 % but like every country like if you only listen to the liberals in this country You you would think that you know that no one's illegal on stolen land, right? If you only listen to the Republicans in this country, you would think we got to find every illegal and get them out of our country and make America great again. Like it doesn't make sense if we just go only by the protesters. Like we don't really have accurate polling because they don't have any free speech over there.

23:44Joe Rogan:Right. And they've killed like famous athletes over there for protesting. Yeah. I mean they killed the Olympic gold medalists in wrestling. The UFC tried to step in and try to do something to stop it. They executed him for just I apparently I don't even think he was actually protesting. I think it was just at a protest He wasn't even saying anything and this is the thing you always have to bear in mind Joe

24:06Konstantin Kisin:I might be wrong about that.

24:08Joe Rogan:No, I think you are right.

24:09Francis Foster:Am I right about that? The fun final details. I'm not sure but the fact that he was executed. Yes He worked very hard to try and say that I think there was there was some

24:18Joe Rogan:discrepancy as to whether or not he was actually participating in the the protest that also could have been the defense You know, I don't know but I mean the fact that they execute people who protest There's no way you can support that kind of that's a scary ass fucking government and run by religious fanatics That's a scary ass government. But the question is like how scary ass does it have to get we're Invading makes sense because if if this keeps going like if we we have to go boots on the ground That's where things get nuts. You can't go boots on the ground

24:49Francis Foster:You can't you can't right I don't I don't think I just any You should be president of the United States. There's a lot of people who are going to disagree with that.

25:02Francis Foster:No, I don't think that's viable.

25:05Joe Rogan:Well, it might be robot boots on the ground. Yeah. If Elon gets that factory up in time.

25:10Francis Foster:What I want to know is, what is it that you're working towards? Right. So from what I understand, talking to some of the people, Israel would quite like a Reza Pahlavi monarchy Because the other Middle Eastern countries that they have peace with, you know, Bahrain, Morocco, increasingly the Gulf states, they're all monarchies. Right. Right.

25:35Joe Rogan:Right.

25:35Francis Foster:So they're down with that. But from what I understand, the White House is really not that interested in Pahlavi. And so what do they want? Well, one of the things that Richard Minniter broke on our show because it hadn't been reported anywhere else was that the White House has given the Israelis a no kill list, which is basically a list of members of the current regime that they don't want to be killed because they have hope that these people could then be the Rodriguez equivalent in Iran. And I don't know that the fanatics within the Iranian regime who are there now, how many of them are like Darth Vader.

26:15Francis Foster:Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Darth Vader zero. Yeah. No, no, no. Zero Islamism. I don't know that that exists. Right. Sugar free. Sugar free. Islamism free. So that's the bit. And that doesn't mean that there isn't like a plan. Right. But I don't know what the fuck that plan is right now. And I find it hard to see one. So evil regime gone. Wonderful. But the question is always like, what comes after that? Right. That's always the question. And that's where I think your point is very true, which is in the past, there have been times where this sort of approach has gone completely off the rails.

26:51Francis Foster:Yeah.

26:52Konstantin Kisin:That's a fact. And it's also as well, what has been coming out of the Trump camp is contradictory, to put it mildly. You have Hegsef saying one thing, you have Trump saying another. They contradict each other at certain points. Is that a tactic in order to befuddle the opponent? Maybe. Who knows? Or is it the fact that they don't actually have a grand vision?

27:10Joe Rogan:Was there some sort of a concession today on Russian oil? Yeah.

27:15Francis Foster:Well, I think, first of all, Trump let India buy Iranian oil. And I think now they are lifting the sanctions on Russia selling its oil because the oil prices spiked as much as they did. Right.

27:26Joe Rogan:Here it goes. U.S. eases limits on Russian energy as oil prices soar. Right.

27:36Yeah.

27:39Konstantin Kisin:Well, you've got the pink Floyd teeth, so it's appropriate.

27:43Francis Foster:But you can see it. Like, the oil prices spiked for what? One day? Two days? Yeah. And everyone went full panic straight away. But the thing is, if that carries on for two months, the impact of that on domestic politics, I mean, I'm not an expert in American politics, but even I can say that's going to be pretty fucking important.

28:03Joe Rogan:Oh, it's bad. Right. Yeah, it's going to be bad. I mean, if oil prices spike, we're fucked. Yeah. You know, and the Republicans are really fucked. Yeah. And you've got the midterms coming up. You've got the midterms coming up in November, and it's also the momentum will be in their way.

28:19Konstantin Kisin:And look, there's, you know, second, third, fourth order consequences. So at the moment in the UK, the vast majority of people find it more and more difficult just to get through to the end of the month because of the cost of living, inflation. It's becoming worse and worse. I was talking to a butcher in my area, which is this very nice part of North London. You know, the type of place I'm talking about. Everyone loves BLM. No one has a black friend. That kind of place. Right. That's the kind of area it is. And he was telling me that even in this very wealthy area, people are starting to ration meat now.

28:55Konstantin Kisin:So before they'd have meat five days a week. Now they're going down to three or two. And this isn't a wealthy area. So now imagine if there's energy spikes and then food becomes more and more expensive. There is already a very worrying, hard left political movement growing in the UK where they're talking about, you know, the capitalism doesn't work. We need socialism. And there's this new politician come to the fore, a guy called Zach Polanski, who talks about what we need in this country and the UK is socialism. Now, imagine if the cost of living crisis gets worse and the vast majority of people who work hard in a regular job can't make ends meet through literal no fault of their own.

29:39Konstantin Kisin:Can you blame them for going, hang on, capitalism doesn't work? Because in this instance, at that moment, it doesn't work for them. And then that could spark something completely disastrous for our country.

29:52Francis Foster:Yeah. But I think that's a negative story. I think it's incredibly persuasive. And I lean more in the direction that this could go badly. But I also think there is the possibility of this goes well too. I think that is possible.

30:06Joe Rogan:How do you envision that scenario?

30:08Francis Foster:Well, so if they're able to keep the strait of rumors open and you don't have this energy problems that we've got now, um you know venezuela cuba he's basically resetting the region and he's basically saying to all the people that want to align themselves with china and russia like we're not fucking about here don't cross these lines that is an opportunity to to to address the slide that the western world has had vis-a-vis china and russia for a very long time that could be a very positive thing my the thing is what happens in iran like that is the thing that i don't really see how that goes well might might do like i said there's probably a plan that we don't know and if if that

30:50Joe Rogan:works out that could be very good does it okay what would you imagine that plan would be if you if you like let's let's imagine best case scenario you're in the white house they're all very rational no one's being influenced by foreign governor governments no one's incompetent everybody knows

31:08Francis Foster:what they're doing well yeah i mean we're in the realms of fantasy that's what i like But I mean, take the Soviet Union, which is obviously something that I know, right? Being born in the Soviet Union, Russia. Towards the end of the Soviet Union, you still had some fanatical communists. And in fact, throughout the Soviet Union, you always had within the government a mixture of different people, right? You had the fanatical communists who believed that communism is the only thing that was ever going to work, etc. But you also had people who were reformers. They saw the problems. They saw that the fanatical communists were ruining things and things were getting worse.

31:45Francis Foster:Right. They saw that you had to kill more and more of your own people to keep to keep shit locked down. Right. So the argument could be within the Iranian revolutionary guard or the regime more broadly. There are people who are like, you know, I'm I'm not necessarily that keen on the guy who runs Syria now, Al Jilani. Right. He is a jihadi, but he's kind of like a moderate one. You know, you know, how long that I don't know how long it's going to last. But my point is, within every regime, there is some range of opinion. There is some range of fanaticism. There is some range of people who, partly for generational reasons, you know, the younger people have seen, you know, a 40 year history, and they now go, okay, this isn't working anymore, we need to try something else.

32:27Francis Foster:That is possible. So if the CIA and the White House have someone like that and they can do a regime adjustment and like I think the idea that you're going to have, you know, multi-parliamentary democracy with, you know, free and fair elections and women, you know, like Venice Beach, you know, rollerblading on bikinis on. And I don't know that that's going to happen. Right. But what you might have is an authoritarian regime of some kind, like many other countries in the Middle East, which realizes that actually economic growth is more important than shouting Allah Akbar every three minutes and blowing shit up.

33:08Francis Foster:Right. that focuses on making life better for their citizens, that practices traditional Muslim values, which many countries do, and says women ought to be modest, but doesn't force them to wear the burqa or the headscarf or whatever, and is less interested in destabilizing the region and attacking others and trying to be this great power, and is more interested in just prosperity for its own people, survival for themselves as a regime and is willing to play ball with the United States.

33:42Joe Rogan:Well said. Yeah, well said. That's best case scenario. That's best case scenario.

33:45Francis Foster:Now, if you get there, I think that would be a huge win for President Trump and it'd be a huge win for the world. And he will walk away from that with a huge win. And I think, you know, you're a better expert on the American people, but I think American people like winning, right? So if you have all this happen, he can then say, well, look, we did this, we did this we did this russia and china have been pushed back we've got to you know the situation ryan is not going to get a nuke which is important i think we can all agree on that right yeah um there is the possibility that he comes out of this very well i i think that based on what i see but i don't know coming back to what we said i think we share this kind of perspective really francis and i that seems somewhat less likely this point is harder to see but i think you can tell a persuasive story both ways.

34:33Francis Foster:I really do.

34:34Joe Rogan:That makes sense. And what you're saying, I think, is very valid that we need to abandon any idea of them having some sort of a democracy over there. It's not going to happen. No. And, you know, you do look at the relationships that we have with other Gulf state nations. Seems fine, right? It's not threatening to us. We would like everyone to be free and have the same sort of liberal democracy that we have in America. But But, OK, you like that all, want that all day long. You can't do anything to change the way other people govern themselves, especially when you've gotten to the point where, like, take any of the Middle Eastern countries, for example.

35:16Joe Rogan:Some of these people are worth trillions of dollars. These royal families have been running it forever. They have insane amounts of oil money. Good luck. Good luck getting them out of there. Good luck saying we should just vote and have a president. you don't have any power anymore. Like, how are you going to pull that off? Especially if things are going well for the people that live there. Like, I have a friend who moved to Dubai. And he's an American. And he moved back to America recently. But he was over there and he said, dude, you could leave a Rolex on the street and people would pick it up and bring it to the police.

35:51Joe Rogan:Like, it's so safe. He's like, there's no crime. And he's black. And he's like, I worry when I go out in America, I'm going to get shot. I'm worried. I'm gonna go to a club and someone's gonna start beefing and shooting up the place and I'm gonna get hit He goes I don't think about that at all over here. There's none of that He goes it's safer is he is it fucked up that you know, it's run by a king I Guess is there is it that much different than a president? I mean in a way like It's a leader right you've got more checks and balances over here You've got Congress you get the Senate you got all this shit going on with the Supreme Court You have all these different human beings that also have a say and can block things.

36:32Joe Rogan:But at the end of the day, we're still under this bizarre alpha male chimpanzee structure that has existed from the time that we were 150 people in a fucking tribe. So it's still one guy running things. It's just running things their way. And if you were a citizen in Dubai, pretty fucking good, right? Right.

36:56Francis Foster:Well, your point about the UAE is really interesting because not only is on the practical level of safety and other things, but also they don't have the Islamism problem that we have in Britain. And increasingly, you guys are starting to see here because they recognize that it's a problem and they deal with it. So I don't know if you saw this news story. The UAE no longer gives sponsorships to their students to go to the UK because they're worried their kids are going to get radicalized by Islamists in Britain.

37:26Joe Rogan:Which is fucking wild. Yeah.

37:28Francis Foster:That is fucking wild. And I mean, you were messaging me about this story with the Mamdani situation right yesterday. Yes. You now have this problem in America.

37:38Joe Rogan:Yeah.

37:38Francis Foster:You have the Islamism problem here where people who are supporters of ISIS are thrown. Your media is pretending it's not happening, but it's fucking happening. Well, it happened in Austin. Right.

37:48Joe Rogan:I mean, the guy who shot up that bar. Because this is a problem, Joe. I'm going to send that article to Jamie. Jamie, you could probably find it on CNN because it's kind of hilarious. Incredible. This was actually incredible. The New York Times title change thing. Did the New York Times change their title? Yeah. They did? I wonder why. I'm gonna send you the CNN one first the CNN one is is really wild I'm gonna it's called like fuses of things with smoke or something they had to change it to bombs or something Yeah, fucking duh I'm sending you this one because the CNN one is Believe it or not more preposterous the CNN one is so kooky You see their headline you like what?

38:33Joe Rogan:what kind of story are you painting here? This is such a crazy way to frame a guy showed up with bombs and was hurling them at people.

38:45Francis Foster:They made it sound like the exact opposite of what actually happened.

38:48Joe Rogan:Well, it sounded like it was just a regular day. It was just a regular day for this fella, and then things just went a little sideways somewhere along the line.

38:56Konstantin Kisin:Listen, we've all got hobbies, man. You know what I mean? You like working out. He has nail bombs. Come on. Did you get it, Jamie? It's not coming through?

39:04Joe Rogan:No, look. It's not loading there. Oh, interesting. But let me see if they took it down. I'd guess they would have. You probably have an old link. Okay, that's the New York Times one I sent you. No, that's the one I just clicked on. Let me check the original one. Nothing to see here. Interesting. They probably deleted it. Okay, here. I found it. I found it. Two Pennsylvania teenagers crossing New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather. But in less than an hour, their lives have drastically changed as the pair would be arrested for throwing homemade bombs.

39:42Joe Rogan:That is CNN's tweet. I'm going to send you a screenshot because I do believe they have taken it down. It's brilliant. Yep, nothing to see here yet. Yeah, they took it down. That's not a headline, though. No, no, no. I'm going to send you the actual tweet because they did take it down because it's so fucking ridiculous. But the internet never forgets. I'm sending it to you here. Thank God I saved it. It took a screenshot.

40:10Francis Foster:Because I'm like, this is such a crazy way to frame two guys wanting to do a terror attack. Yeah. But it's not an accident, Joe. It's not crazy. No. You know it's not crazy.

40:22Joe Rogan:Look how it's framed here. This is the original tweet. Two Pennsylvania teenagers. Just regular Phils from PA. From Philly. Two Philly boys had a couple of cheese steaks and a guy on the train Crossing New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather Why the fuck would you even say that could have been a normal day if they weren't going there to commit terrorism?

40:45Konstantin Kisin:Do you know what it reads like? It reads like when I used to teach 13 year olds creative writing That's how they'd all start off, you know, it was like a normal day

40:53Joe Rogan:I mean is the I'd like to know who wrote that? Who's the person who wrote that? And I want to know, were you directed to write it that way? Who approved it? Yeah.

41:03Francis Foster:Who edited it?

41:03Joe Rogan:Are you trying to downplay the possibility of, first of all, now in New York, because you have a guy who's an avowed, whatever he is, democratic socialist, some say communist, but also Muslim. And then you have these Islamists who are doing a terrorist attack. So are you trying to soften that? Yeah, but they are.

41:24Francis Foster:So what happened, just so people know, is there was a protest outside Mamdani's mansion. Right. Right. And then these two people turned up and threw bombs at the protesters. Right. And the way it was reported, if you just read that and no other stuff, you would have come away with the conclusion that it was the protesters who were the targets of the bombs. They were the ones that threw the bombs. No one officially said that that's what happened. But the way they did the story and the headline, you would have got that impression. And you're just going, well, you were just on a team. You see this as a team game, right?

42:01Francis Foster:And you want to present your team in the correct light.

42:04Joe Rogan:Oh, the new post. A post regarding two individuals arrested for throwing handmade bombs outside of New York City Mayor Zohan Mondani's home failed to reflect the gravity of the incident, thereby breaching the editorial standards we require for all our reporting. It has therefore been deleted.

42:22Francis Foster:But see how skillful this is, Joe. This is gaslighting again. They're saying their mistake was to... Look at the first...

42:29Joe Rogan:Look at this guy's donut operator. Nah, you retards got called out for trying to downplay actual terrorism, and now you're backpedaling. Yep. Who's that second guy? He's really smart. Didn't fail to reflect the gravity of the situation. This guy named Constantine, I think he's on that trigonometry show, reflected the gravity of the situation. It failed to accurately communicate who is responsible. who the intended victims were, and where the blame for the attempted terrorist attack lay. In other words, you didn't accidentally downplay the seriousness of it. You deliberately misrepresented what happened to conceal the truth from the public.

43:03Joe Rogan:Well, that's how AI would say it.

43:07Francis Foster:I still write my own shit, John.

43:09Joe Rogan:I know you do, but I like the donut operator guy.

43:13Francis Foster:I know. He's more your cup of tea. That's how I like to talk.

43:17Joe Rogan:That is what happened, though, right? That is what happened. But that's what's really scary about this world we're living in right now because we're so ideologically captured, both right and left. Everyone in this country looks at this administration as an existential threat to democracy itself and our way of life and fill in the blank. Whatever marginalized groups are all going to be round up and put in internment camps. This is the narrative that the most radical of the left have about the sky is falling because Trump's in office.

43:48Konstantin Kisin:But it's also as well what people on the left don't want to acknowledge is the dangers of Islamism. When they see people do these kind of horrific terror attacks, when they see, for instance, what happened in the London Bridge terror attacks in 2019 or what happened in Manchester in the Ariana Grande concert where Islamic terrorists bombed an Ariana Grande concert and the majority of the audience were little girls, were young girls. and they say, oh, this happened because, you know, they were marginalized and they felt angry. And this is what people do when you push them to one side and they don't have a means in order to how to express themselves.

44:26Konstantin Kisin:You're going, no, what this is, is an ideology. It's an ideology which believes that our civilization, our way of life is evil. But also they want to establish their form of radical Islam across the globe. They want to create a global Islamic caliphate and they will do whatever it takes. in order to achieve that goal. But people in the West, they can't understand that because it's so alien for how we see things. We believe human life is precious. We believe the most important thing is human life. They don't. They believe the cause is more important than your life. And we can't understand that because we're raised in a world that is fundamentally Christian, even though we might not be.

45:08Konstantin Kisin:We still have Christian values. We had a guest on the show, a wonderful historian called Tom Holland, and he explained this to us, that even if you're not Christian, even if you think you were raised by atheist parents, you were still raised with Christian values. That's the soup in which we live. That's the water in which we swim. So this way of life that these people have, this ideology is so alien to us that we can't understand it. But also we don't want to understand it because if you start to actually investigate what these people believe, what their ideology is, you realize that we are not all the same.

45:45Konstantin Kisin:And these people believe something very, very different. And then we're going to have a very uncomfortable conversation of how do you tackle this? Because can you have Western liberal democratic values and Islamism and people who are Islamists in the same society? And the answer is you can't.

46:02Joe Rogan:And I think it's really important, your point, the difference between Islamists and Muslims.

46:06Konstantin Kisin:Yes.

46:06Joe Rogan:The Muslims are these Gulf state people. Muslims are these people in Dubai and Saudi Arabia. Islamists are the ones that want the caliphate. Yeah, right. But then you have the crazy Christians. And that thing that I sent you, the Yahoo thing that we talked about yesterday with Schellenberger, the Yahoo thing is nuts. So these military leaders – so this comes from one of the noncommissioned officers who went to a briefing. He goes to a briefing and they inform him that you shouldn't be scared because this is all because President Trump is anointed by Jesus and this is to bring about Armageddon so that Jesus returns to earth.

46:44Joe Rogan:This isn't a fucking military briefing. One such note included an anecdote from a non-commissioned officer who reported that their commander had urged us to tell our troops this war was all a part of God's divine plan. And he specifically referenced numerous citations out of the book of revelations referring to Armageddon and the imminent return of Jesus Christ. This is fucking crazy. He said this morning, our committee. So this is this is an officer who's talking about this. This morning, our commander opened up the combat readiness status briefing by urging us to not be afraid as to what was happening with our combat operations in Iran.

47:18Joe Rogan:He said President Trump has been anointed by Jesus to light the signal fire in Iran to cause Armageddon and mark his return to earth He said he had a big grin on his face when he said all this which made his message seem even more crazy Well, that's reassuring. That's well. This is this scary arm of the right This is the scariest arm of the right the people that think that this is one of the main reasons the Mike Huckabee people I think this is the main reason to protect Israel. It's a part of God's plan. You know, Israel is where Jesus is going to return. He's going to return to Jerusalem. Yikes.

47:56Francis Foster:Yeah, I've never really understood that. Like I think you can argue for – you can be pro-Israel for pragmatic reasons. This religious stuff is a little bit weird to me.

48:06Joe Rogan:Well, this – but the problem is you've got fanatics like the Islamists. But you've also got these Christian hard right Christian nationalists that really believe that this is a part of biblical prophecy. And that this is a book of revelations. It's about to go down. And they want it to go down. This is fucking terrifying.

48:29Konstantin Kisin:This is really interesting for us because in the UK, Christianity is being dig fanged to the point where there's a trans flag on practically every church. So this idea of having these hardcore right-wing fundamentalist Christians, we just don't experience that.

48:47Joe Rogan:Yeah, we don't have that really. Yeah, it's like, can't everybody live in the middle? Why do you have to go all the way over to, we've got to start Armageddon? Jesus is going to come back on a white horse? You ever read the book of Revelations? Yeah, I got really into it. The book of Revelations is kooky. They really believe that Jesus is going to return on a horse. Why a horse? A white horse.

49:08Konstantin Kisin:That's a bit racist.

49:09Joe Rogan:A little bit. I mean, I don't get...

49:13Francis Foster:Can we have a diverse horse at least for the Armageddon?

49:16Joe Rogan:Why not a horse of color, Joe? You want me to read you the passage? Because I saved it. Because it's kind of kooky. Because it's one of those things where you just go, well, who fucking believes this? Is this really what you think is going to go down? Because someone wrote it down on paper 2 ,000 years ago in ancient Hebrew. It says, Heaven opens and Christ appears on a white horse to judge and wage war. called faithful and true with eyes like fire, many crowns, and the name King of King and Lord of Lords. Just imagine it's 2026 and you're like, that's the blueprint, boys. But this is just as scary, and especially for people that are Muslims, right?

49:56Joe Rogan:Or anybody who lives in the Middle East. This is more important than human life. This is more important than international law. This is like in the eyes of the crazy on the right, this is the problem. So it's like it's not it's not like one side. It's like all good over here. We have to fight against the Islamists. Now, we've got some kooks over here, too. If that guy's for real and that guy's in a position of power and he's really having combat readiness meetings where he's telling people that we have to bomb and start Armageddon so Jesus can come back on a white horse. Fucking yo. Like that's kooky.

50:33Francis Foster:The thing that is probably reassuring somewhat is I don't President Trump doesn't strike me as one of those people. He's not. He's not. Right. whereas the leader of Iran is.

50:43Joe Rogan:Right, but people in the military, I think, are as well. Yeah. And people in high positions in the military, I think, maybe as well. If this guy can give that kind of a meeting and that kind of a speech at a meeting, that's a little terrifying. And if I was over there, I'd be freaking the fuck out. If I'd be like, this is your plan? I'm cannon fodder so that Jesus can come back? My body's going to be a part of the fucking signal fire?

51:08Konstantin Kisin:Let's be honest, though. It wouldn't be that much of a plot twist for 2026 would it right?

51:12Joe Rogan:It would be the final you know episode 10 Game of Thrones season six Yes, I mean it is getting fucking what that's when the aliens come maybe that's what they're doing You know the whole thing is it's There's not a sane person on either side the whole thing is nuts and it's like it doesn't it it doesn't make sense to anybody and that's what scares the shit out of me

51:39Konstantin Kisin:yeah it's the thing that scares me is what constantin is is addressed is i don't get worried unless i can't see a way out or the way that this is resolved and like you said the coin is in the air and i'm slightly of more of a more pessimistic nature he's more of an optimist but as i i look at And I think to myself, this could go so wrong, so badly wrong, that it could make Iraq look like an absolute picnic in comparison.

52:10Joe Rogan:Yeah. Well, especially if terrorist attacks start popping off over in America, like major ones. And that could be bad for everything. That could be bad for freedom of speech. That could be bad for rights. That could be bad for incorporation of digital ID. That would be a good way to push that through. There's a lot of stuff that would go through that would radically change just like the Patriot Act did right Patriot Act radically changed the freedoms that we have in America and the overreach that the government is allowed.

52:39Francis Foster:Yeah, they're so right, but we only just started being allowed to take water back on the fucking planes, right? Maybe this is what it's all about.

52:48Joe Rogan:You can't take water on the plane inside to let people keep their sneakers on wasn't that going on for a while? Yeah, you can't have that one fucking shoe bomber Richard asshole that one guy

52:59Konstantin Kisin:And there was once, do you remember you weren't allowed to bring scissors on? Like the small scissors? I can't remember the comedian who said this, but he went, you know what? If you take over an entire plane armed with nothing but water and some small scissors, you deserve the plane.

53:13Joe Rogan:Well, here's the thing. Like, you can bring skateboards, but you can't bring a pool cue. So it doesn't make any sense. Like, I fuck you up with a skateboard. I fuck a lot of people up with a skateboard. You know, like think about what kind of damage you could do with that big heavy ass thing. You know?

53:31Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, it's just, and the worry is when it comes to all of this is you look at these guys and you go, do you have a vision for what is actually going to happen?

53:40Francis Foster:But I do think they do, though. I do think they have a vision. What I want to find out is what that vision is. I hope you're right, but I don't think you are.

53:50Joe Rogan:You don't think I am? I think it's very possible that they thought this would be over much quicker. They thought taking out the IATO. Just look at the success that they had in the initial bombing of Iran. The initial bombing, they supposedly decapitated their ability to make nuclear bombs or at least stopped it for a long time. And there was a lot of concessions that the Iranians were willing to submit to that they never submitted to under Obama or anybody else. And that wasn't enough. Right? So the problem is when you're like we're talking about Desert Storm. You get away with something that works really well.

54:24Joe Rogan:You're like, we know what we're doing. And then you bite off more than you could chew.

54:28Francis Foster:Yeah, and especially once you've done Venezuela, you feel like you're kind of on a roll. Right. But let it do this. Yeah, I see your point. I see your point. I do think, though, I mean, from what I read, both Kushner and Witkoff both said that the Iranians were not playing ball, actually. Okay. Which is why they went in. So obviously, if you think about it, given how long it takes for U.S. assets to get to the region, this decision would have been made weeks ago at the very least. Right. And that's because from what I understand, the negotiators like Iran isn't actually playing ball. What they're doing is they're claiming publicly that they're willing to make concessions.

55:03Francis Foster:But when we sit down with them, that's not what's happening because all they're doing is stalling for time.

55:08Joe Rogan:That makes more sense. And so if you were worried that someone was in the middle of actually getting their uranium up to a point where you enrich it to. nuclear bomb levels.

55:17Francis Foster:Right. But I think a lot of people misunderstand that in the sense that like, I think it's, based on my understanding, it's totally false to claim that they were like about to develop a nuclear, they were not.

55:28Joe Rogan:Well, you've seen the compilation of Netanyahu saying Iran is two weeks away from developing a nuclear bomb all the way back to the 80s. Have you seen that compilation? I haven't, no. It's wonderful. See if you can find it, Jamie. Because it's so kooky. I mean, he's been talking about this for fucking ever. They're that close. They're two weeks away. They're two weeks away. They're two weeks away. And, you know, maybe they are, you know, and maybe Stuxnet put a dent in that, right? They used that virus program to kill all the computer programs that were running their nuclear program over there.

56:03Joe Rogan:Yeah. Yeah.

56:04Francis Foster:Well, I don't know that they were ever like two weeks from having a payload that was ready to be delivered to wherever. But they were enriching uranium to levels that you only enrich if you want nuclear weapons. And so I guess the question for Trump is like, do I allow this to continue? And do I have to wait until they've got the fucking bomb on a launcher waiting to go? Here it is.

56:26Joe Rogan:Let's hear it. You've probably heard this line before. Iran has never given up its quest for nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them. That's because Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has been saying this for more than 30 years, claiming Iran is close to having... Nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons. Nuclear weapons. Atomic bombs. In 1992, as a member of parliament, Netanyahu addresses the Knesset. He says, within three to five years, we can assume that Iran will become autonomous in its ability to develop and produce a nuclear bomb. Three years later, in his book Fighting Terrorism, he repeats the same time frame, three to five years.

57:12Francis Foster:Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

57:13Joe Rogan:Fast forward to 2002. Netanyahu testifies before a U.S. congressional committee actively calling for the invasion of Iraq. Are there any other nations that you would recommend that the United States launch preemptive attacks upon at this point? The two nations that are vying, competing with each other, who will be the first to achieve nuclear weapons is Iraq and Iran. The invasion happens months later. Keep going on this. ...are found in Iran. This is a fragment of a 2009 U.S. State Department cable released by WikiLeaks. Netanyahu tells members of Congress that Iran is one or two years away from being capable of developing nuclear weapons.

58:00Joe Rogan:It's 2012 and Netanyahu is holding up his infamous cartoon bomb at the UN General Assembly. By next spring, at most by next summer, at current enrichment rates, they will have finished the medium enrichment and move on to the final stage. From there, it's only a few months, possibly a few weeks, before they get enough enriched uranium for the first bomb. And now, 33 years after Netanyahu's first so-called imminent warning, Israel attacks Iran. If not stopped, Iran could produce a nuclear weapon in a very short time. It could be a year. It could be within a few months, less than a year. That's despite the U.S.

58:49Joe Rogan:Director of National Intelligence saying Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon months earlier. Iran lied. But for Netanyahu, the slogan has been the same for decades. Like I said, big time. Michim Edbedenko, Al Jazeera. We get it. Yeah, so, but here's the thing. maybe he's kind of right, but they haven't ever done it. Right. Yeah. Well, there's a difference. They certainly are enriching uranium to a point where it's more than you need for power.

59:21Francis Foster:Right. So why are they doing that? Right. Right. And so I guess for Trump, the calculation is like, I'm in my last term. I might as well, you know, roll the dice, go and deal with it now. Could end very badly, as we've discussed.

59:34Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

59:35Francis Foster:There is a way that it ends well. We will see what happens. I just honestly don't think anyone knows how it's gonna I don't think anyone knows how can you so many moving parts so if I ask you who's you know Dana White just announced the UFC card for the White House right yeah who's gonna win Justin Gaethje or you little poor you you are not gonna say this is what's gonna happen right cuz you don't know because nobody knows yeah right and this is like a hundred times

1:00:00Joe Rogan:more complicated right yeah yeah at least at least yeah probably several

1:00:07Francis Foster:thousand times more so it's a it's a gamble and you've got to i mean you've got to think if this goes badly this is legacy defining for all involved for all involved yeah this will this will whatever you've done up to that point it's like blair and bush tony blair people forget in our country tony blair was immensely popular and then iraq happened and the only if you mention Tony Blair now, the only thing anyone remembers is Iraq.

1:00:36Konstantin Kisin:So, for context, Tony Blair was one of the people... Tony Blair was a hero in Kosovo, because he effectively stopped... The large part of the reason the war in Kosovo ended was Tony Blair. I think there was something... I saw a story that kids were... People were naming their kids Tony Blair. Right? They regret it now.

1:00:55Francis Foster:Yeah.

1:00:58Konstantin Kisin:He was one of the central people in the Northern Ireland peace still bringing peace to northern ireland for people of our age who grew up in the uk that was massive we never thought we'd see peace in northern ireland northern ireland was a glorified civil war and it had been for however long it's right the way from the 60s or 70s the 80s and he was one of those people instrumental in bringing peace to northern ireland it was a miracle it was an it was a total miracle that that happened the good friday agreement and it was other people as well like mo molin etc so you look at blair he was on a roll he he must have thought to himself everything i do turns to gold here i have achieved peace in kosovo peace in northern ireland why can't i invade iraq and afghanistan and install democracies and bring peace to the middle east i've done it to northern ireland no one ever thought that could happen

1:01:50Francis Foster:So this will – whichever way it goes, I think it will be defining for the people involved. If it goes well, this is like the biggest Hail Mary touchdown in history in some ways. It goes badly. That will define this. Certainly from an outside perspective, that's what I see. It's going to define the presidency. I mean I don't know how you can argue with that really.

1:02:15Joe Rogan:No. No. I don't know how you can argue with it either. but that's what's so interesting about people that absolutely know how it's going to play out you know you don't and then there's also the New York Times thing I sent to you, did they change that Jamie or did they take it down I just sent it to you So what does it say? So does New York Times still have it up? Wow. Crowd gathered on Monday. They didn't say which Monday.

1:02:46Joe Rogan:It was a Monday. It was just six fucking years ago. Yeah. And then again, this is the problem where everything is polarized and politicized.

1:02:58Francis Foster:Well, I think your point about people wanting to believe something is so true. If whenever anything like this happens, you instantly get these camps, right? You've got the anti-war camp. You've got the pro-war camp. You've got the this camp. You've got the anti-Israel camp. You've got the pro-Israel camp. And everyone, like, information is no longer about information. Right. It's just fodder for your information war that you're fighting. Exactly. And then on top of that, and look, this is a kind of, I'm cutting my own balls off here Because I make good money from posting stuff on X, right? But the monetization of content has made things different.

1:03:34Francis Foster:And we can all see it in our feed, right? Yeah. You've seen this. I mean, you must see it. Yeah. So now you have people who are basically, like, I go on Twitter on X to express my opinion and to engage in discussion with people who have a different opinion. That's what I do, right? But there are now lots and lots of people who go to work. They go to X to work.

1:03:54Joe Rogan:Right.

1:03:55Francis Foster:And that's what they're doing. Now, the incentive structure of that is not conducive to a healthy debate at all. What you've got now is people going, okay, a thing has happened. What is my – Venezuela got invited. It was Israel's fault. Okay, here's some content about that. And it's no longer authentic communication, unfortunately. And that's just actual people doing it. Right. Yeah. And then you've got AI on top of that. Yeah. And then you've got foreign bot farms. Yeah. And foreign governments trying to influence this shit.

1:04:25Joe Rogan:There's this one currently popular page that I follow that's clearly AI. I mean, you could just read it and tell that it's AI. And it gets immense amounts of engagement, heavily right-wing, like really well-written, funny. Funny? Yeah, but not human. Not funny, real funny, but funny, technically funny. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? like insults that are technically funny, but for whatever reason you don't digest it. It's like Olestra. Remember that stuff? It got to get that fat, but it just went right through you like diarrhea. That's what it's like. It's got no soul. There's no soul to it. And that's just one.

1:05:07Joe Rogan:I mean, how many of them exist and how many state actors are running bot farms?

1:05:12Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

1:05:13Joe Rogan:So we don't know what the fuck is going on at any given time.

1:05:16Konstantin Kisin:No. But it's the incentives that have become perverted because it's no longer, like Constance said, about expressing opinion or wanting to get involved in dialogue or debate. What you've got now is people, like you said, earning their livings. So if you need to pay your mortgage at the end of the month or you need to pay a team or you have a company, you're not going to put out a nuanced take. Why would you? It's going to get minimal engagement. You are going to put out something that is going to trigger, that is going to be incendiary, that is going to drive engagement, that is going to get people upset or angry and agree or agree with you and therefore more likely to share.

1:05:52Konstantin Kisin:So that's the content you're going to put out because that's the content that's going to make you the most dope.

1:05:56Joe Rogan:100%. And then you have people that are pushing for this idea that no one should be able to post online unless you're using your real name and you show some sort of an ID, which is also kind of crazy.

1:06:07Francis Foster:Yeah. There's downsides to that for sure, but I also do understand why they're saying it. I understand it too.

1:06:12Joe Rogan:I just think it's a slippery slope that stops all whistleblowers.

1:06:15Francis Foster:and imagine you are a regime critic in Iran. Yeah. And you're trying to post news from Iran under, you know, there's definitely, but you know, I think Jordan Peterson was actually one of the first people that suggested this thing. And I understand why, because the way, it's like the windscreen, the windshield effect in your car. The way you and I behave face-to-face is not the way people will behave when they're sitting in their truck and someone cut them up in traffic. Right, yeah. And social media is the, we cut each other up in traffic and then sit there, fuck you, buddy, from like behind our screen.

1:06:50Francis Foster:That's what it is. Yeah. Right? So I understand it. But times a million. Times a million, right? And then you've got foreign bots and all this kind of shit. And then taking away people's right to anonymity online, like fuck me, that, you know, the second, third, fourth order consequences of that are pretty fucking crazy as well.

1:07:08Joe Rogan:I found another picture of that area from what it says it was yesterday. So I don't know that it was not real. So this is from which website? I typed it into perplexity, and I'm clicking around on pictures to find out where they're coming from one by one. So is it possible that the New York Times put the wrong footage, but it was a similar kind of protest in the same spot?

1:07:37Francis Foster:Yeah, that's fine. This is a similar photo. That makes more sense. This is an AP source on this photo.

1:07:41Joe Rogan:Okay, so all the New York Times did is get the wrong photo of a bunch of people gathering. I'll note this one, which is at night, so it is definitely a different photo. This is from January. This one is? Yeah, but this is not the same photo that we looked at before. Right, so the other one, though— This one is from a day ago. Okay, that's— It looks very similar. Well, that's very different right there. That's small. Well, but it's the same angle of this little pool thing or whatever it is in the middle. Right, right, right. So what they did was just use the wrong footage, but a similar sort of a protest.

1:08:13Joe Rogan:So it was just an unfortunate error, not like reframing the narrative with propaganda. That I'm not sure because even these comments, it's like AI and it's fake photo. But that's why I was trying to find other sources of it. What does Grok have to say? I mean, I used our perplexity. Right. But I mean, on the post, usually if someone posts something on, they say, Grok, is this true? Is this footage legit? Oh, that's it. Okay, it's on Instagram. I can find it on Twitter. And so Perplexity says that there is a legitimate size protest that's like that. Yeah, I just asked if crowds gathered there yesterday.

1:08:46Joe Rogan:It says multiple reports indicate that thousands of people gathered in the central square in Tehran yesterday. Show support and pledge allegiance to the new supreme leader. How do you say his name? Mojtaba.

1:08:59Konstantin Kisin:Mojtaba Khamenei.

1:09:00Joe Rogan:Mojtaba. He's the son of the guy they killed. How many people have they killed so far? Like the leaders. I don't know, but it's probably up to the low hundreds, I would imagine. Because they had one guy last week that was the new guy, and they whacked him almost immediately.

1:09:15Francis Foster:I didn't tweet this, but when this guy was appointed, I wanted to say, like, congratulations to him and condolences to his family. I was like, this is a bit full on. Yeah. The problem is you're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he's going to last very long. Because he seems pretty hard line as well.

1:09:34Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. Well, I mean, they killed his dad.

1:09:37Francis Foster:Yeah. That doesn't tend to de-radicalize you very much.

1:09:40Konstantin Kisin:That's going to piss you off.

1:09:41Joe Rogan:So Jamie put in, did the New York Times use an old photo for this event? Evidence so far suggests the New York Times used a recent photo for this week's gathering, not an old archive image, though many commenters have accused the opposite. Interesting. Instagram's own post of the square crowd, multiple Iranian users claim the image is fake or AI, or from 2020, and several assert that it's not representative of real public sentiment. However, another Facebook thread referencing the same image states that it was taken by New York Times photographer Arash Kamushi on Monday, March 9th, 2026, which matches the article date and captions used by other outlets showing the same scene.

1:10:27Joe Rogan:See, this is the fog of confusion that exists on social media.

1:10:33Konstantin Kisin:Yep. Isn't it worrying that we can no longer tell what's real? We're already at that point. And when you think of where we were last year, where you could really tell pretty much what was AI and what wasn't. Now we're in the murky waters of is this, isn't it? It's going to come to a point pretty soon where everything is going to look like real life.

1:10:53Joe Rogan:Well, as soon as AI can't detect it, that's when we're fucked. So I talked to Marc Andreessen about this, and his recommendation was that everything should be on the blockchain. so you you're going to be able to tell whether or not footage has been altered what the you know what the chain of custody of this image has been where it started where you know i mean it's terrifying isn't it because it is yeah because you're going to think is that going

1:11:20Konstantin Kisin:to be the end of journalism really right is that going to be almost i think we're talking about this and this is really really important but what's coming with ai is even more important And even the people you talk to in the field have no idea what's going to be the second, third, fourth order consequence.

1:11:39Francis Foster:Right. I know. I mean there's so much to be excited about with AI. I think it blinds a lot of people to the like not exciting parts of it.

1:11:49Joe Rogan:Well, ultimately, if you just looked at where – what is it ultimately going to lead to? It's going to lead to something that's way smarter than us and why would it listen to us anymore?

1:11:59Francis Foster:Well, I'm sure you've seen this stuff about how he will blackmail the CEO, right? So by definition, that means it has a survival instinct.

1:12:07Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:12:08Francis Foster:And if it has a survival instinct, by definition, it means there is a priority that it has, which is above humans. Yeah. By definition. That's what a survival instinct means. It means you care more about yourself than you do about anyone else. Right. Right? So if AI has a survival instinct, we are not going to be its number one priority.

1:12:26Joe Rogan:Not only that, it doesn't seem to differentiate between using nuclear weapons or other weapons. And when they've done these war game simulations with AI, they prefer to use nuclear weapons. Well, they're more effective, right? This is the thing. They're not scared of this idea like, oh, my God, you're just going to dust a city. They're like, oh, that's the way to do it. It's numbers on a chart, right? Yeah. Well, you want to get your goal accomplished. How does AI accomplish its goal with whatever the best tool available is? Oh, that's this bomb. Right.

1:12:55Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's efficient.

1:12:57Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:12:58Konstantin Kisin:You know. And then a mutual friend of ours, Melissa Chen, was telling me that there's a Chinese, one of the Chinese robotics companies is called Skynet.

1:13:07Joe Rogan:Oh, God.

1:13:09Konstantin Kisin:And they had, they released a robot called the T-900. And I'm like, who says, you know, the CCP don't have a sense of humor.

1:13:16Joe Rogan:That's why. Is that actually true? Yeah. Well, you've seen the robots that they have now that will work in your home and like fold your sheets and make your bed and stuff. and do it remarkably human-like. There's a video that was released yesterday. Again, I don't know if it's real, but it looks real. It looks like an actual robot that's making your bed. And they've gotten the dexterity to the point where you could imagine things like this happening. And I think this is one of the reasons why Elon is shifting his focus away from some Tesla models so that they can reset up one of their factories to make these Optimus robots, that you're going to have them as home companions.

1:13:55Joe Rogan:And they're going to be able to do kitchen work for you and maybe even cook.

1:14:00Francis Foster:My acupuncturist, she's Chinese. She went back to China. And she was saying she stayed at the hotel. And, like, most of the services there is provided by robots. So, like, she went to a room, ordered some food, three minutes, knock, knock, and it's a fucking robot delivering the food.

1:14:15Joe Rogan:An actual humanoid-looking robot? No, I don't think so. Because there's a restaurant out here that you go to, and when you order drinks, it comes by on a little robot trolley. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have that in the UK as well. except you take your tea. Yeah, it's kind of cool. It's fun. Here it is. It's not called Skynet, I don't believe. Oh, sorry. And that was wrong. Melissa's been factored. They didn't name it after the trailer, I think.

1:14:36Konstantin Kisin:But I can't tell what this is. T-800. T-800. Yeah, T-900 is coming. Look what it looks like, though.

1:14:42Joe Rogan:They're making a weird movie here. Wow. So it could be for a movie and we're misunderstanding. That looks fake. Yeah, that looks fake right there. The robot itself looks fake. That's why I liked hearing coming out of Skynet. The movement doesn't look. This doesn't seem. Well, it's just in that, first of all, I don't like how it's lit. I don't like how this room is lit. I feel like you would... I think this is for a film. Yeah. Yeah. Because that's not real. That's a bullshit-ass fun kick. Yeah, I think that's a good mistake. Joe's like, this is my art of expertise. There's a lot of videos of it that say it's real, but...

1:15:11Joe Rogan:Yeah. I like how the bag went flying. Like, it's on a rail. You know? It's not even stationary, because you don't want to really see how hard it can get. Yeah, just to go with this Forbes article, but it says you can buy it for 40 grand. Wow. But I don't right now. No, that's I don't know this might be bullshit. You look at it It's got the Iron Man thing in the center of its chest. That's pretty dope Hmm You know I would just say engine AI would makes it just right away sound like it's a AI content company right company well that video looked very AI like it didn't that there's something about it You know, your brain recognizes miniature cars.

1:15:52Joe Rogan:You ever see, like, a miniature car? Like, you know how they have those, like, really well-done miniature cars that people like to collect? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a tiny Porsche. Yeah, yeah. But your brain knows. Like, your brain looks at it and goes, there's something wrong here. This is not real. Yeah. That's how I felt looking at that robot. Like, my brain was like, mm-mm. That's not a real thing throwing kicks.

1:16:15Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. But it's going to come to a point where it's like, is that real?

1:16:19Joe Rogan:Oh, yeah. I mean, it's probably – ChatGPT5 can already probably do it better than that. We don't know what the newest iterations of these things are, and they're improving radically all the time. I just don't believe it. The beginning of this video says there's no CGI, which I don't know why we have to believe that. Bro, this looks fake to me. This looks fake to me. That does not look real. There's articles all over saying it's real, but it doesn't look real at all. Yeah, but, I mean, why wouldn't you have it more well-lit? Like if I was gonna do something like this I would have spotlights on it and people next to it so I could examine their shadows and it should This is weird.

1:16:54Joe Rogan:Yeah, this is like a Looks fake. Why would you have like I was the light coming through the corner of the window like that?

1:17:00Francis Foster:Also, why would you make a robot that does like martial arts?

1:17:04Joe Rogan:Just shoot people bro, right? Yeah, why would you throw that bullshit kick to that's a 360 roundhouse kick that almost never lands?

1:17:12Konstantin Kisin:It's really hard to pull off. Yeah, but you're saying that as a human. Maybe as an AI, you land it every time. No, it's slow.

1:17:18Francis Foster:But surely if you're a robot, you just grab their neck with your metal claw and crush it.

1:17:22Joe Rogan:Just run after them and headbutt them and knock them unconscious. Your head's made out of metal. The whole thing is crazy. Why would you be throwing wheel kicks? Would you watch? Even if you went over UFC fights and say, what's the most effective techniques that work most of the time? Why would you program in 360 roundhouse kicks?

1:17:41Konstantin Kisin:that fucking never comes up yeah i mean it does look cool though yeah but i i can think of one

1:17:46Joe Rogan:fight uh yair rodriguez pulled it off on bj penn but there was bj penned towards the latter end of his career yair rodriguez in his peak and yair is exceptionally talented he's kind of a freak with his kicks but it's almost like he was showing off he already had bj really hurt and he just threw a 360 roundhouse kick and he hit him in the face it was crazy but that this thing is doing that just to show you it does martial arts. Why would you need martial arts? You should have like a thousand bullets on you. Just gun everybody down with your fingertips. Robocop. Yeah, why wouldn't you turn your...

1:18:20Joe Rogan:Like Iron Man does. Shoot fire out of your palms. The future's bright, Joe. Well, we're also kind of being bullshitted, I think. Right. I mean, is there a way to analyze that video? God, this rabbit hole is strange. This is a website that they've made. It says you can buy it. When you click on buy now, it takes you somewhere else, and I think that that's the first signal. And it steals your IP address. Yeah, that's where I'm like, I'm not clicking. It gets all your credit card information. But it's a fully made website. They have a team. They've got a CEO. They've got other things. It just doesn't seem, this all looks fake to me, like it's for a movie.

1:18:55Joe Rogan:Like this is like. Right. Maybe it is. Maybe this is like a setup for a movie. We're being fucked with. Right. Well, we're giving them a lot of free. For sure, for sure. That's why we're even Googling it. There's lots of articles about it. People are talking about it like it's real and discussing it like it's real. No one that I've even seen is like, this is obviously fake. This is obviously AI. I like how it's got the Cylon eyes. Yeah. By your command. Yeah. We've got other products here for sale, which those fit in line with other robots. Click on that. I don't know what the fuck this is. Bro, that's the guy from Monsters, Inc.

1:19:26Joe Rogan:Yeah. The one big eyeball. It's a really well-made website. It looks nice. Interesting. They did some good fun work, but it just seems like a fun project someone made. Yeah. Stay tuned for this one. You can't buy this yet. Yeah, it could be two years. What about the dog? What about the guy who's just got legs? That one's weird. What's that? It's like, I don't want him touching me. Just run around my house and do some stuff. Yeah. A really expandable bipedal robot that supports user costs, blah, blah, blah. Interesting. Watch this. You want to hit purchase now. You can already see the website at the bottom.

1:20:00Joe Rogan:That doesn't look. It's 3.cn, so it's a China website.

1:20:03Francis Foster:Mm-hmm.

1:20:04Joe Rogan:Not this.

1:20:04Francis Foster:Blank. Probably getting out. It's loading. Okay. There we go. It's in Chinese. See, it's taken somewhere else. Now it's like, what is that? It's definitely not a buy now.

1:20:14Joe Rogan:Maybe that red thing is.

1:20:15Francis Foster:No, this is like, this is, I think. Register your interest, maybe? Like a back-end website.

1:20:20Joe Rogan:Interesting. They just didn't click the right link here because it opened up a different. I don't think this is right. But this is like, whatever this is, is very, they did it well. Interesting. Even if it's a college kid making a project, good job.

1:20:36Konstantin Kisin:Well, I take full responsibility for that one. I know, it's fine. I take responsibility. That was me. Don't blame me. There's a Forbes article. There's a Forbes article. Anybody can make a Forbes article.

1:20:45Joe Rogan:That's kind of another. What? Yeah, not anybody, but we can make Forbes articles that say all sorts of stuff. It's not coming from Forbes editorial team per se. But you could publish on Forbes? I don't want to speak out of turn specifically, but I've seen there's so many reviews for video games that pop up. like every single day that's like it's you can be a contributor i believe is what it would be not like oh and maybe they have a bad editorial team and you can sneak this through and just pretend that there really is that would be a great pro prank to pull yeah it's great hoax did you follow

1:21:21Konstantin Kisin:the moltbook thing no i mean this did you follow moltbook yeah i just actually saw that i think meta just bought it today meta just bought it today so this is fake did you think was that fake as well? No, I don't know why they would have bought it. How weird is it we have to worry about everything

1:21:35Joe Rogan:being fake?

1:21:35Francis Foster:Francis just here spreading fake news on the whole podcast. I was just

1:21:39Joe Rogan:very cynical about it because the idea of it sounds right, but like that actual bots are making a social network to do stuff and talk about us and whatever kind of sounds too far into the sci-fi realm. So this is the social network for AI agents. I have heard about this.

1:21:56Francis Foster:They complain about humans. Is that right? Yeah. These fuckers are...

1:22:00Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, and apparently they created their own language. They talked amongst themselves so that we wouldn't be able to access and see what they were talking about.

1:22:08Joe Rogan:Yeah, that's really fun. Did you see when they got all the AI agents to talk to each other and started using Sanskrit?

1:22:13Konstantin Kisin:No.

1:22:14Joe Rogan:Yeah. They got these different large language models to communicate with each other, and they eventually broke out into Sanskrit.

1:22:20Konstantin Kisin:Wow.

1:22:24Joe Rogan:Maybe these guys in Iran are right. Like, maybe this is the apocalypse. Maybe this is how it comes about. Maybe we're looking at each other and we're going to bring about these motherfuckers. And that's what's really going to be the end of civilization.

1:22:39Francis Foster:And places like Iran is the only place you're going to be able to hide as a human because it's the one place that hasn't adopted all this shit, right?

1:22:46Joe Rogan:Yeah, maybe Afghanistan is the spot to go. Just live like a goat herder.

1:22:49Francis Foster:Yeah, we're going to be like Bin Laden just living in a cave.

1:22:54Konstantin Kisin:I mean, you're being very negative, boys. There's another option. There's another option. There's another option. What's the other option? We all become Amish.

1:23:03Joe Rogan:Oh, okay. But then we're run by AI. We're Amish and we live in our little communities, but we have no say on how the world works. So this is the real fear is that we're no longer the apex intelligence of the planet. And that seems to already be the case. Yeah. This is for the Forbes thing I was talking about. The article we had, I don't think was specifically this, but I've seen many articles like this where people can submit. one-off original articles to the opinion section, particularly for topics related to business tech or policy by emailing pitches to ideas at Forbes.com. So, yeah, like, so if you're a person on the other end that's just looking for clicks, like, that would be a good one.

1:23:44Joe Rogan:You see it, like, oh, this is a really well-written article. Let's go to the website. Website looks legit. Oh, they're throwing wheel kicks. I'm in.

1:23:54Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, I mean. motherfuckers but again the the point being made again is like it's such a it's such a terrifying world where you don't know if what you're seeing is true you don't know if what you're reading is accurate right to the point where you can't help if that's the case that the world you live in continually feeding things that may or may not be true or altered or doctored wouldn't that just put you in a state of paranoia after a while?

1:24:23Joe Rogan:100%. Now imagine if you are in the Middle East and you bust out your cell phone because a fiery cloud emerges and Jesus is on a white horse and you film it and you post it online, who's going to believe it, right? This is the real problem with Jesus returning. If he returned now, no one would buy it. Like we're getting into this It's like imagine Jesus is a real person or a real God who's the son of God who's going to come back. He really is. It's real. It's all real. It's happening at the same time where you have no idea what's real. And it all converges instantaneously with the rise of sentient, artificial, general superintelligence that has complete autonomy.

1:25:07Joe Rogan:It's running all the resources, everything, anything that's attached to a computer, which is basically everything. All of our power, all of our – you know, everything. fill in the blank everything's run by computers and now ai has control of everything and no longer wants to listen to human beings and jesus returns

1:25:29Joe Rogan:yeah i mean that might be what everybody's talking about when they're talking about armageddon when they're talking about the end of civilization it might be this new thing that we're creating well if that happens i'll be rooting for jesus to return i'll be oh please jesus i'm not sure i believe in you but please come back yeah I'm not sure either but this is I mean maybe he maybe a historical Jesus existed at one point in time and maybe what they're talking about is like their version of the cycles of humanity that other religions have talked about is that especially when you deal with technology and power and civilization that things get to a point where they always go sideways and then there's dark times and then they then society like the yugas like you know what are the yugas the yugas are the cycles of civilization that let's uh i don't want to fuck this up so let's um define the you we're in the middle of kali yuga which is the the age of confusion and feels like it yeah yeah yeah i mean it's odd how accurate these cycles are when you look at historical events and like what things were like you know x amount of thousands of years ago.

1:26:40Francis Foster:Hindu cosmology.

1:26:41Joe Rogan:Yes. Vast cosmic ages in Hindu cosmology describe reoccurring cycles in the moral and spiritual state of the world. So the four Yugas are Satya, Yuga, the first and most righteous age, often called the golden age, marked by truth, virtue, and maximum dharma, which is moral order. Treta, Yuga, the second age, dharma, declines somewhat. virtue still predominates but imbalance begins uh how do you say that word dwapara yoga the third age with with further decline in righteousness and an increase in conflict suffering and confusion and then kali yuga the fourth and darkest age characterized by moral decay ignorance and materialism with dharma at its weakness okay that's us yeah hindu cosmology treats these yugas as repeating cycles of creation, growth, decline, and destruction rather than one-time historical periods.

1:27:41Yeah.

1:27:41Francis Foster:Very interesting, right? Do you know, it's even more noticeable for us coming to America, I think, because we love America, but one of the things that really stands out is how materialistic people are and how much money is the number one thing for everything now.

1:27:55Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:27:55Francis Foster:I find that really, it stands out to me. the fact that so and i find it weird in our game especially like in media and podcasting whatever like because the way we think about what we do is we're trying to produce content that's actually of value to people but we also meet a lot of people for whom it's like a business it's like it's like selling widgets it's the same yeah you know how do you get you know how do you maximize your returns on your investment right you know um and that to me is it's um it shows you that

1:28:28Joe Rogan:something is slightly off yeah it is it's and you you also get a lot of you get people that are making content just based only on the perceived popularity of that content not whether or not they are really interested in having these conversations and you feel it when you're talking to these people or when you're listening these people talk to each other rather yeah um the clickbait stuff a lot of celebrity stuff you know um uh burt kreischer went on Shannon Sharpe's podcast and he said they basically have like a list of like controversial things they can talk about and you know and subjects they think are going to get the most amount of traction and those are the questions that he asked you just ask questions off of a list

1:29:09Konstantin Kisin:but from a business point of view if you take morality out of it that's a smart thing to do Joe.

1:29:14Joe Rogan:Is it though? Is it though because like what's the most popular show is this one and why is this one the most popular because I don't do that at all

1:29:22Konstantin Kisin:but agreed But you're sort of an outlier in that there's people who make very very very good living Interviewing those types of people having that type of approach and creating that type of content

1:29:34Joe Rogan:I know but I think in the end you bite off your nose to spite your face because I think that you lose a certain amount of Authenticity there's a certain amount of like a legitimate connection between you and whatever you're talking about that It doesn't get through to the people like if I talk to someone And I'm only talking to them because I want to. And I have a lot of people on that are not even remotely popular or famous. But I think they wrote an interesting book or I think they're involved in interesting research. Or I think they've got a weird opinion on something I want to talk to them about.

1:30:05Joe Rogan:Or they've had a strange life or they were an undercover cop or whatever it is. I'm just interested. And I think that if you abandon that and only focus on, ooh, this person is famous or this person is in the news or this is going to get a lot of views, you don't care as much about the conversation you're having and the people know so like the person listening and watching they can feel it no i agree with that but i also think you could

1:30:31Francis Foster:probably get a lot of clicks by saying i don't know erica kirk killed charlie kirk right you

1:30:35Joe Rogan:could do that too but you're also you're you're playing a weird game where you got to continually go deeper and deeper and deeper and now erica kirk's a man you know what i'm saying that's probably next to me. Yeah, yeah. Has that already happened? That's probably already happened.

1:30:50Francis Foster:Someone's probably already floated that one out there. And you're saying over time that you run out of road.

1:30:55Joe Rogan:You're playing the wrong game. You're playing a very similar game to the game that TMZ is playing or any of these other things where you can get a lot of traction, you can get a lot of views, but no one thinks you're being authentic. If you have a take on world events, And we're incredibly sorry for the loss of this person. Like, you don't really care. And they know you don't really care. So they know there's no sincerity. They know you're not really connected to it. And so in this weird age that we're living in where you're not sure what's real, at the very least, you want the person who's talking to be talking about something in an honest way.

1:31:36Joe Rogan:Right. And connecting with people in an honest way because that's what we're missing. and that might be the only thing we have left once this AI shit goes live. It's probably not even going to be podcasts. It's probably going to be public speaking. You're going to have to talk to people in groups and we're going to all have to work ideas out together because I don't think you're going to be able to know when you're communicating online what's real and what's not real. We're already in the fog. We haven't hit the fucking full hailstorm of bullshit that's coming our way.

1:32:08Konstantin Kisin:yeah and it but i i agree with you joe and i agree if you want something that is sustainable if you want something that is nourishing if you want if you want to create content that people engage with that is honest but i think there's a lot of people out there who are just looking at it in a very cynical way and they're optimizing it for clicks attention and monetary gain yeah and if you want to create a business that can make money and that is that doesn't require a lot of lift we all know what you can do.

1:32:38Joe Rogan:That's the Eagle song. Dirty Laundry.

1:32:40Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

1:32:40Joe Rogan:You know? They've always been doing it. It's real. It's real? Jamie's still on this.

1:32:45Konstantin Kisin:It doesn't do all the jumping and shit. Thank you. It's from CES. I'd have to find a real. This is... Okay, that looks way more real.

1:32:52Joe Rogan:So the videos we were watching were bullshit. So this went viral a while ago. They had to come out and make other videos. Oh, this is a different one. Oh, my God. That's so iRobot. I know. Lined up military style. There's a few different companies in China that have gone viral for posting videos that people in America think are fake. And that's why I had to go to CES and find somebody else. Because they put out more content that doesn't necessarily look fake, but it doesn't look better. Well, that doesn't look fake. Yeah, this does not look fake because this is people on the floor at CES. Right, but look how much more awkward its movements are.

1:33:27Joe Rogan:But they put out a video where the thing is kicking the CEO. Yeah. It almost looks real, but it's not. It's tough. I like to see what Joe thinks of it. Is it funky lighting again? Not that. Fuck out of here. It's when they're in the ring with him. Okay. Hold on a second. Okay, so he's going to go ahead. Okay, that looks much more real. That looks much more real. Much more awkward. Jesus. That looks fake. I tell you what, I would not do that.

1:34:00Francis Foster:No, no that looks real to me stand in front of a hunk of metal is gonna kick

1:34:04Joe Rogan:The problem is it's slow motion. Let me see it again. And in fact did they show it in real speed? It's just this weird clip of it. Let me see it. It's kind of strange, but let me see it again Taking the first kick. Oh It looks real The only thing I would say is it's not jumping up and doing spin kicks, but it's doing some right stuff Well that would be what I would teach it first of all I wouldn't teach it to do the spin kicks. I teach it to do like a stepping front kick like that The shit they were showing that people had problems with, like we just did. But, man, the robots are doing crazy stuff.

1:34:38Joe Rogan:Well, they definitely can do crazy stuff. There was that one demonstration they did in China. I think you've seen that one. See, it's bouncing around, like in a fight position here. Like it's ready to go. Checking its legs out. Wow. But let me see some wheel kicks. That's the, I mean. See, that's the thing.

1:34:54Konstantin Kisin:Why is the one in the corner looking depressed? That's the older one.

1:34:57Joe Rogan:No, no, he's sad. He's sad. He's been decommissioned. He's right now plotting his strategy for blackmail to get upgraded software. Yeah. I don't know. So that, I mean. Well, that's, this is. So what we're looking at was probably some AI at least enhancements. But the problem is they're not saying it. They're not admitting that it is. They're saying it's not. And I go like, ah, it's tough. Interesting. Well, I would want to see this thing move in a similar way that you're seeing in that video. I mean, that thing shows remarkable agility. where it's jumping up in the air and spinning around. And this thing's not doing that.

1:35:33Francis Foster:It's moving very differently, isn't it?

1:35:34Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:35:35Konstantin Kisin:There's a stiffness to its movements. Yeah.

1:35:39Francis Foster:Looks like you at the gym, mate. Yeah, it does. Yeah. It really does.

1:35:46Joe Rogan:There was the Chinese demonstration, though. There was a demonstration where these people were on a stage and they were doing martial arts and the robots came out and the robots did martial arts. That looked real. Right, right. That looked real. But it didn't... Here's the other video we sort of saw. Oh, this is crazy. Oh, my God. This is crazy. That's where they reload. And these are real, right? Yeah, this is a different video they had to post because people didn't think these were real. That looks real.

1:36:19Francis Foster:They look like they're Unsullied.

1:36:21Joe Rogan:So... From Game of Thrones. What are these ones? Who makes these? I don't know. No, it doesn't that marching sound is not comforting is it? World's first mass delivery of humanoid robots. Yeah, you're gonna have cargo ships filled with these headed to America

1:36:40Konstantin Kisin:Wonderful, I mean those are gonna be the new police officers. Uh-huh. Yeah.

1:36:44Joe Rogan:Yeah. Yeah, that's not good This is I mean, this is Terminator. This is the movie. I mean and If you really were imagining like you were trying to warn people of an apocalypse and you told it through stories for generation after generation and then eventually people write down their versions of this story and then it goes to 2026 where this stuff is actually happening maybe this is what

1:37:11Konstantin Kisin:they were warning us about yeah do you remember in the 80s and the 90s and the early noughties there was this run of great movies talking about how the robots are going to take over

1:37:19Francis Foster:sci-fi books as well i mean isaac asimov stuff was amazing philip k dick you know um

1:37:25Konstantin Kisin:to randroid stream of electric sheep which then became blade runner all of these and then no one's

1:37:32Joe Rogan:making those movies now are they no too close to home i guess i robot was probably the last one

1:37:38Konstantin Kisin:yeah right yeah which was uh i you know i robot which was the one with tom cruise minority report which was based on a philip k dick but nobody's making them anymore because everyone's like dude

1:37:50Joe Rogan:i i know this is going to happen right i don't need to see this well they're also talking about using AI to predict people's behavior. So they're talking about future crime. Minority report, right? So they've literally talked about one of the ways that AI could be implemented. You look at someone's history. You look at someone's behavior patterns. Look at what they're doing now, and you predict, oh, this person has been radicalized. They're about to do X.

1:38:14Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. They're about to tweet something.

1:38:19Konstantin Kisin:Arrest them. Yeah. Graham Lillian picks up his phone as the robot kicks down the door and arrests him. Poor Graham. He's doing all right now. Yeah, he's in America. That's why he's doing all right.

1:38:30Joe Rogan:I think that backfired. I think people were outraged by that because it's so outrageous. You meet that guy at the airport and arrest him. It was right after he did this podcast, by the way.

1:38:40Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

1:38:40Joe Rogan:Yeah. Yeah.

1:38:42Konstantin Kisin:I remember that's a moment. Even when I was talking to comedians who were actually woke, they were like, yeah, this is, you can't do this.

1:38:51Francis Foster:The thing is he didn't even do it in England. So you're arresting someone who's not a citizen of the United Kingdom for a crime. I mean, if we accept that framing that they didn't even commit in the country. Right.

1:39:06Joe Rogan:Yeah, it's pretty kooky that they went with it. Yeah.

1:39:09Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. And I know the reason is because every police officer in airports in the UK have guns. But it's a really bad look. Like there's five armed police officers arresting a comedy writer. Yeah.

1:39:25Francis Foster:I bet you they felt bad doing it as well because it's not them that's making up these dumb things. Oh, I'm sure. Nobody signs up to like arrest comedy writers. Right. In airports. I don't think that's why the police do it. But the rules have just got so –

1:39:37Joe Rogan:Well, you see it in like the humiliation that a lot of these police officers face when they have to arrest someone for a Facebook post. Right. Which you could see like they're not happy. And when people are protesting and yelling, are you fucking serious? and they're like, I'm just doing my job. Yeah. You know.

1:39:52Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. And that's a large part of the problem. We get former police officers on the show and we've got a lot of cops and former cops who watch the show and they talk to us about the state that the British police force is in and it's demoralization. Yeah.

1:40:07Francis Foster:Yeah, the rank and file don't want any of this shit.

1:40:10Joe Rogan:Well, same in America. A lot of, especially major blue cities where just a few years ago they were running with that defund the police bullshit it and then things obviously went sideways and most of them sort of course corrected for the most part except in narrative you know it's not like public massive support for the police officers because they keep society together like in austin the the cops responded in a minute one minute that guy started gunning people down at that bar the cops were there and killed him in a minute it's incredible incredible and they should be applauded for that i mean that's amazing i mean And that – but even that, like in this city, there hasn't been this big public support of those officers, this big celebration of those officers, this big acknowledgement of the importance of them and how they were willing to put their life on the line and react so quickly and so effectively.

1:41:03Konstantin Kisin:They're heroes. Yeah, they're real heroes. They're real heroes.

1:41:06Joe Rogan:And they're heroes that have been demoralized by the last six years of horseshit ever since the George Floyd protests.

1:41:14Francis Foster:You know, and what he was happening before. I mean, if you go back to Michael Brown, right? Michael Brown, what we were told in the media happened is not what happened.

1:41:22Joe Rogan:Which one was Michael Brown? Michael Brown was hands up, don't shoot. Right.

1:41:26Francis Foster:That's he didn't have his hands up. Right. And he didn't say don't shoot. Right. He assaulted the police officer. Right. Right. But the media concoct the story. And I don't think this is what we came back to, like what's happening in new media, where people are putting out things that are really damaging to the fabric of our conversations. and how we talk about things. Like you say, I mean, there are bad Apple police officers. Of course there are. But the majority of them, they are people who are signing up to risk their life on a daily basis to protect other people in their community. And these people all have fucking PTSD because all they see is the worst of humanity day in, day out.

1:42:03Francis Foster:Every single fucking day, they get in the car and they go and eat shit for the rest of the day. And then they go home and they worry about not coming home, right? And then someone tries to run them over with a car like, yeah, they're going to fucking shoot.

1:42:14Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:42:14Francis Foster:You know? And the thing is, that's how society falls apart when you no longer honor and celebrate the people who are putting themselves on the line.

1:42:23Joe Rogan:Well, not just that. In the case of the lady running over, or she wasn't running him over. I think she was trying to turn her car away from him. But that guy had been dragged by a car just a few weeks earlier. Right. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. And then on top of that, you have people that are being paid to protest. Right? So it's organized. And I'm not saying that lady was, but many people are. And then you've got all these people that that becomes the focus of their life. It becomes a cause that's worthy. You live this mundane, boring life of desperation. And then all of a sudden something comes along that gives you hope and meaning.

1:42:56Joe Rogan:And like, this is my identity. My identity is I'm fighting fascism. And I'm out there in the street.

1:43:02Konstantin Kisin:You know, I was on the plane to the US, I think it was last year, and you know the movie Bridesmaids came up. Yes. So, really funny movie, it's 2013, I was like, ah, I want something like, let's watch this comedy. The romantic interest in Bridesmaid, the main guy, you know what his job is? He's a cop. Can you imagine a movie being made now, like a romantic comedy, where the main guy is a cop and he's a good guy?

1:43:30Joe Rogan:Right.

1:43:30Konstantin Kisin:You just wouldn't see it. You just wouldn't see it because cops are oppressors. He's a nice agent now.

1:43:39Francis Foster:Yeah, man. Do you know Yuri Bezmenov talked about this? Yes. He talked about this. He talked about the fact that when you see in the culture, the military, the cops, the firefighters, all of these people, they're bad. And the criminal is the one that's to be understood and to be... That's how you flip society. And that's what we've got. That's what we've got.

1:43:59Joe Rogan:The Besmanoff speech from 1984, which is, by the way, such an appropriate date for him to make that. But it's it's so eerie how all of that has actually come to pass, because back then nobody took him seriously at all. Right. Right. And it didn't it wasn't until like the 2020s that people started reviewing that. And then once it got on YouTube, then people were like, oh, this fucking guy nailed it.

1:44:22Francis Foster:I think it's YouTube and also most people, in my experience, want to pretend that everything is fine most of the time. So if you come out in 2018, as we did, and say this woke shit is getting out of hand and it's going in a bad direction and it's going to cause a lot of problems, people make you the problem. They say you're wrong to talk about this. If you talk about grooming gangs, you're bad and evil and whatever. If you talk about free speech and people being arrested for tweets and all of this, people make you the bad guy. And it's only later. Like I remember – I can't even remember who said it.

1:44:58Francis Foster:But like I had this – oh, no, I remember who said it. One time I was on TV debating with this woman about this stuff. And I was saying cancel culture is bad and she was saying it's all bullshit, blah, blah, blah. I met her a few years later and she was like, yeah, I realize cancel culture is bad. And I went, how did you realize? And she went, when my friends started getting canceled. Right. Most people want to pretend most of the time everything is fine. Yeah. But when they start to see the reality of things and it starts to affect them, that's when they go, oh, maybe this best man off guy had a point.

1:45:29Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

1:45:29Joe Rogan:I had an argument with a seemingly intelligent person who's a friend of mine when the NSA, when this whole mass spying thing was the Edward Snowden stuff was released. And he was like, like, you can look at my shit. I'm not doing anything wrong. Like, what do you care? I'm like, oh, that's such a crazy take. Yeah. Who are these perfect people that are watching over everything? You don't think any of them have either some financial or power-based incentive to do certain things or silence certain voices and find out what you're doing or maybe even manipulate you in some sort of a way? Being able to have access to all of your emails, all of your phone calls.

1:46:10Joe Rogan:Those are just people. And all of them are unelected bureaucrats. You think that's okay for those people to have access to everything you've ever said? That's crazy.

1:46:20Konstantin Kisin:And look, maybe the current government that we have in this place is, you know, would never dream of doing such a thing. And maybe they're entirely honorable and everybody's a great person. And, you know, they're this unique human being where they don't have any ulterior motives. But what's to say the next government that comes in won't do that and start looking in and going, hey, you know what? you're causing me problems Joe Rogan exactly you're saying a lot of things that I don't actually like let's look through your emails oh look I'll find one from 14 years ago which is you know whatever it may be let's get rid of you

1:46:52Joe Rogan:for that this was the argument when Obama was pushing the NDAA and it was the this is the indefinite detention so this this concept that you didn't have to charge anybody you didn't have to you just have to have it you don't have to try them within a timely period, indefinite detention. Well, we'll never use that. Why are you pushing it then? Right. Well, also, who comes after you, man? Right. Like, how many generations are we away from Hitler? Right. You know, like, who's to say that this new power won't be used by very unscrupulous people that are now... The founding fathers of this country really had a good understanding of how corruption and tyranny sets in.

1:47:34Joe Rogan:And that's why they put all these checks and balances in place. And the more they eroded that, whether it's the Patriot Act, the Patriot Act II, or the NDAA, when you start doing stuff like that, man, you're just undermining the very fabric that this country was created with. It's like we were created under this idea that we know human nature. We know that you cannot have power. We know that the government has to be working for the people. It can't be we are under the power of these individuals because those individuals will then act like tyrants, which is what people always do when they have power.

1:48:10Francis Foster:It's one of the things that makes America really a great place because we look at the UK now and if Francis is right – and I've said this. I think the next election is probably going to be Nigel Farage versus these far leftists. If those far leftists get in power, I mean they're going to start regulating podcasts. I guarantee you. A hundred percent. That's what they're going to do. They're going to say, we have Ofcom for TV. We need to have it for other broadcasting. Surely you'd agree with that, right? And then before you know it, everything we do. Before you know it, you guys are living in Austin.

1:48:42Francis Foster:Right. Because at that point, we would actually leave. Yeah, you would have to. You would have to.

1:48:47Konstantin Kisin:Because what they would say is, and they would use the word that they always use, which is they're spreading misinformation and hate.

1:48:55Francis Foster:Yeah. When the New York Times spreads misinformation, that's wonderful.

1:48:59Joe Rogan:Right.

1:49:00Francis Foster:But it's – so, yeah, I think allowing people maximum freedom within the system you're talking about is a really, truly precious thing. It's why America in this respect is an example to the rest of the world.

1:49:13Joe Rogan:I think if anything that should be done, they should be able to figure out what – which of these accounts are bots and eliminate those. I do not think that you should be allowed to not just run a bot farm or I don't think you should be allowed to hire people to tweet. I think that's crazy. I most certainly don't think you should be able to use AI. I mean, that seems crazy. It seems crazy to allow that and pretend that's a person.

1:49:40Konstantin Kisin:But think about it like this, Joe. How basically did social media start? Facebook, meta, all the rest of it. It started by a nerd in his bedroom, in his college dorm, who set up a website to rate hot girls on campus. And my point is, like, we're creating all of this technology. We don't know what's going to be the second, third, fifth, sixth order consequences. And we're having to figure it out as we go along. And now we're creating artificial intelligences that are way smarter than us. And you're going, at what point is this going to run away? Or has it already run away? and we just don't want to admit it because most of us don't know enough and the ones in charge are delusional.

1:50:22Francis Foster:Yeah. But you're right, Joe. I think we need a way to know, A, what is human content and what isn't human content. Right. And also, I sometimes look at stuff on social media and I go, there's no fucking way this take got 50 ,000 likes on X. No fucking way.

1:50:38Joe Rogan:Right, right.

1:50:38Francis Foster:You know what I mean? Right. But that is shaping people's perception of reality and that is informing political debate And that is then informing how people vote. And where do those 40 ,000 likes come from? Did they come from within America? Did they come from within Britain? Because what if they didn't? Right. So who is then shaping the political direction of our countries? We need to know that. Yeah, we do need to know that.

1:51:05Joe Rogan:We need to know that. Because it is effective. Even if someone has a completely preposterous and radical position, a couple steps down from that, that becomes more palatable. Right? Like because now it's closer to the like the farther left the left goes the the weirder the center gets because the center starts accepting things that were far left positions. And same on the right. Same exactly on the right. And you can you can shift narratives by really really radical ideologies or really radical thoughts and radical declarations and you could change like what's acceptable.

1:51:42Konstantin Kisin:So an example of that is during the Euros, the 2021 final, it was England versus Italy. And it was a tight game and it went to penalty shootout. And three black England footballers missed the penalty. And we ended up losing the European Cup to the Italians. And afterwards, these three black footballers got inundated with racism and horrible things. That sparked a conversation in our country about we have a real problem with racism. this is disgraceful that these black footballers are exposed to this level of racism it's unacceptable of course it is all those things are true but basically about them being exposed to racism it's not acceptable and then it went into a discussion about england being a racist country white supremacist and this became widespread and this and the example of what these footballers were exposed to was used as a way to justify this opinion and you could see a lot of people accept that opinion until a couple of days later when they investigated where the majority of the tweets came from and messages and i think something like 85 if not 90 came from outside the uk if not even more than that so you're going oh so this entire conversation that we have had about white supremacy about you know black people not being accepted in in our country about the fact there's second-class citizens and look this example of them being exposed to horrendous racism when the The fact is the majority of it came from outside the UK.

1:53:09Francis Foster:And then you have to ask the question, who benefits? Right. Who benefits from us hating each other, obsessing about our differences, worrying about how we're the most racist places in the world, when this narrative is likely being driven by actually racist countries? Right? Right. Right? Right. Because that's what's happening. Yes. And we are allowing it to happen. And I think we just haven't woken up to the fact that we are living in the age of informational warfare. And we, because of our belief in freedom, have just got lost in this fact that we are under attack.

1:53:45Joe Rogan:It's a very good point. I have to pee. We'll come back with that. Awesome. Let's do that. I'll go pee as well. Speaking of religion, so show us this Sam Tripoli Facebook take. He was on Danny Jones, and this is what he said about Facebook.

1:54:04Joe Rogan:Volume. Yeah. It's a giant lie. It's a propaganda piece. That was a Pentagon program called LifeLog. LifeLog is a Pentagon program that wants to collect all your data for your whole life. What day did the government stop the LifeLog project? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. DARPA shut down the LifeLog project February 4th, 2004. What day was Facebook registered as a business? Oh my God. No way, bro. The exact same day. They don't even hide it, dude. It was created by DARPA. Yeah. They handed it to Mark Zuckerberg. And then the Vossel twins are like... What about the other... Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all...

1:54:49Joe Rogan:And that's why they became the first Bitcoin millionaires. Because they play ball. Oh my God. It's all theater, dude. So what is the purpose of LifeLog? To collect all your data for your whole entire life. No. Okay. Take this with many grains of salt. Sam is one of my best friends. I've known him for decades. He's a wonderful person, but he's a kook. But he's right a lot.

1:55:15Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

1:55:15Joe Rogan:I don't know if he's right about this. Right. Yeah. Jamie thinks he's right? It's not that he's incorrect. I would say that. He's making some connections. Yeah. Yeah. Well, he's definitely right about the dates, and that is a little weird. Yes. That it's ended on the same day where Facebook is beginning. A little weird. Yeah. You know. What do you think the appeal is of like... When I went down this rabbit hole here, it said it was made by the Information Processing Techniques Office of the CIA, I think, or something. But here's some other fun projects that are associated with this. Biologically inspired cognitive architectures?

1:55:57Joe Rogan:Wait, what? Yep, there's just a couple. Biologically inspired cognitive architectures. That sounds like artificial intelligence. Yeah. Bootstrapping Learning. What was the other one, Jamie? This Forrester thing. Forrester, a program to develop helicopter-borne radar system that can detect soldiers and vehicles moving underneath foliage cover. Whoa. Deep green. U.S. Army Battlefield Decision-Making Support System. Yeah, this is all AI. Heterogeneous Urban RST-18. So they were planning on this in the— This was 2004 is when that thing ended, the lifelog thing. So, I mean, it even goes back to says they were working on ARPANET back in the 60s.

1:56:39Joe Rogan:Whoa. Just beginning of the internet.

1:56:41Francis Foster:By the way, Joe, have you had anyone on to talk about this weapon that the U.S. forces used in Venezuela?

1:56:47Joe Rogan:No.

1:56:48Francis Foster:No, I haven't. Not yet. But there was something like they used something, right?

1:56:51Joe Rogan:Yes.

1:56:53Francis Foster:Supposedly. That makes your brain water temperature rise and so you get nosebleeds and shit. Is that what it is?

1:56:59Konstantin Kisin:Well, my cousin told me when I was talking after the attack. Your cousin in Venezuela. My cousin in Venezuela, yeah, yeah. He was saying that it seemed like in a one-mile radius, everybody's windows got blown out.

1:57:10Francis Foster:Well, that's just blast. That's not like it. But what I heard was that they had some kind of weapon. Some sonic weapon. I don't know if it was sonic, maybe, but something that incapacitates people and makes them very uncomfortable, basically, but without killing them.

1:57:26Joe Rogan:Was it 60 minutes? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so 60 Minutes said that these guys acquired some weapon from Russian black market. And it's a very small, portable weapon that you can carry around with you and does something very similar. What is their claim on this? Oh, well, there's two different things going on with the 60 Minutes thing. They had a story a couple months ago where they were tracking a guy. And then they just had an update, I think, over the weekend that added to it. But what is the claim? Oh, I think they found the guy that said he was doing it, I believe. Right. He had a device in his car or something like that.

1:58:02Joe Rogan:And you could just point it at people, but you could carry it around. Yeah, that is where it gets strange. I mean, the 60 Minutes thing from yesterday going around, I didn't watch it, so I don't know what they were talking about. Oh, the Havana Syndrome. Yes. Yeah, but it has to do with that, and that's what I was trying to do. Trump had this discombobulator weapon. Right, right. That's what I'm talking about. Discombobulator. It's the most Trump name for it, isn't it? It's kind of the description of what the Havana Syndrome weapon is. Yes. The discombobulator. But it seems like whatever its effectiveness is the Havana syndrome is very small in comparison to what these things are doing These things are like completely incapacitating people.

1:58:33Konstantin Kisin:You know, I don't think people talk about this enough You know when they came in to take Maduro? You know what they also did? I mean you probably know this they fired a rocket into Chavez's mausoleum They did? Yeah, just to be like go fuck your mom. I'm gonna bump in your grave Wow, he's not the most Trump thing ever.

1:58:53Joe Rogan:You know what's those things cost? Yeah.

1:58:55Francis Foster:Oh, yeah. Millions of dollars.

1:58:57Konstantin Kisin:Millions.

1:58:57Joe Rogan:So millions just to say fuck you? Yeah. She fired a rocket into his grave. Yeah.

1:59:02Francis Foster:This is the American way, baby. We're going to fire some expensive shit. That's crazy. It's your grave.

1:59:10Konstantin Kisin:But under any other president, you would have gone, that's bullshit. But under Trump, you're like, yeah, of course.

1:59:16Joe Rogan:You think it was his idea?

1:59:17Konstantin Kisin:Yes.

1:59:18Francis Foster:Yeah. Yeah.

1:59:20Joe Rogan:I've got a thought.

1:59:25Francis Foster:That sounds exactly like a Trump idea.

1:59:27Joe Rogan:So this weapon that – what is the details? I don't know. We can just watch this. Yeah, let's see what he says here. Well, we could just read. I couldn't read it. Go ahead. Okay, let's play it. Let's play it. Here it goes.

1:59:39Francis Foster:...of a classified microwave weapon that may explain mysterious brain injuries suffered by U.S.

1:59:47Joe Rogan:officials. We've been investigating these injuries for nine years.

1:59:51Francis Foster:and now our sources tell us this microwave weapon is portable, concealable, and uses relatively little power.

2:00:01Joe Rogan:Hundreds of possible attacks have been reported, including, we've learned, at CIA headquarters in Virginia and at least two incidents on the grounds of the White House. For years, the government doubted the stories of the injured, But now the victims, including former CIA officer Mark Polymeropoulos, hope that word of a newly discovered weapon will finally vindicate them.

2:00:30Francis Foster:There's a part of this, Scott, that has to do with moral injury, and that's the idea of betrayal. You know, I worked for 26 years for the CIA. I think I was involved in every covert action program in the Middle East. I did some very interesting things for the U.S. government, always with the idea that they would have my back if I got jammed up. I just needed to get medical care when I came back, and they wouldn't even do that. So this moral injury, this sense of betrayal is so acute with me.

2:00:55Konstantin Kisin:That's something that I can never forgive them for.

2:00:58Joe Rogan:Mark Polymeropoulos rose to an executive level at the CIA about the equivalent of a three-star general.

2:01:05Konstantin Kisin:He was awarded a top decoration for service.

2:01:09Francis Foster:60 Minutes has learned to take... Not much about the weapon, unfortunately. Yeah. Huh.

2:01:18Konstantin Kisin:but it's interesting that the way that they did that they did that operation because when i was talking to my cousins and my friends about what happened no one in venezuela had a clue and they were my friend said that he was woken up around two in the morning by a plane going overhead and there's a no fly zone around over caracas at that time especially and he was like what is this and he said you heard this almighty boom and everybody was just nobody knew what was happening they don't have x in venezuela for obvious reasons so everybody was in the dark and it was only via instagram and facebook that they started to understand what had just gone on but it was complete disbelief that the americans had done that if they uh they don't have uh x do

2:02:07Joe Rogan:Do they have threads? Which is like X-Zero.

2:02:12Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, X-Zero, yeah. I imagine they must do, but he said the way that everybody was communicating was via Instagram. Interesting.

2:02:19Francis Foster:What are people saying now in Venezuela?

2:02:21Konstantin Kisin:So now I talk to my friends. He said that things are getting better. He said things are getting better. He said the crime was down 75%. I mean, I don't know how true this is. He said things are slowly starting to get liberalized. he also the i was talking to a colombian friend of mine who was saying that people venezuelans in colombia are now starting to go back because whilst the regime is still obviously not perfect what you essentially have is a puppet regime and they know that the moment they step out of line they know the moment they to use trump's parlance fuck about something will happen they're kept in They're kept on a straight line.

2:03:01Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, they have to behave. They can't do what Maduro did. And what's interesting about when Maduro was captured is nobody really mentioned that much about his wife. But a lot of people say that his wife was the brains behind the operation. Because Maduro, there's clips of him that went viral on TikTok and Instagram and on Twitter as well, where he was doing speeches and he had to do basic mental arithmetic and he couldn't do it. This guy was a bus driver. He was picked by Chavez when Chavez was on his deathbed in 2013, dying from stomach cancer. And he appointed Maduro. Everybody was shocked because they were saying, well, Maduro wasn't the most capable.

2:03:41Konstantin Kisin:He wasn't the most intelligent. But what Maduro was is he was the most loyal out of all Chavez's underlings. So he was picked not for his brilliance, not for his sharpness, but because he was a company man. And actually the the person who the Venezuelans hated the most was his wife because she was the brains behind the operation She was the one in charge of the kidnappings the tortures the murders So when she was kidnapped people were happier that she was on the helicopter the Maduro himself Really?

2:04:13Francis Foster:Yeah, Lady Macbeth

2:04:17Konstantin Kisin:She was way more cruel than Maduro Wow

2:04:22Francis Foster:Way more cool. It's interesting you say things are getting better now because it's short term, right? We don't know.

2:04:28Konstantin Kisin:Yeah.

2:04:30Francis Foster:This has happened a lot of times in Latin America, right? People get overthrown, things are getting better, and then some shit happens.

2:04:37Joe Rogan:Yeah, not the most stable place.

2:04:40Konstantin Kisin:Not the most stable people, Joe. I'm going to be honest with you. They're my people. It's either, you know, it's either fascismo or viva la revolucion. and you're like, guys, can we have a little middle? And they're like, no, viva la revolución. You know, they're excitable people.

2:04:55Francis Foster:And you also wonder how much the fact that Venezuela in particular, it's so resource rich. A lot of, like a lot of, Francis always says to me, like, you know, it could be a really great country, really wealthy. And I go, I don't know that having those resources makes a country better. Because what you get is a corrupt elite who are fighting for control of these resources that are so easy to get. Like in 1990s Russia, when the Soviet Union collapsed, the people who took over all the resource companies, the oil companies, the gas companies, where like Russia is basically, all it is in terms of its economy is digging shit out of the ground and selling it.

2:05:29Francis Foster:That's what it is. And the poetry. Yeah, not a lot of money to be made in poetry, right? But the people who took over those companies, they weren't people who knew anything about the oil business. They weren't people who knew anything about the gas business because all you really had to do is take over and then you just let Western companies come in and do the drilling and the oil field services and all of it for you. So these countries which are so resource rich, it actually makes them more corrupt and more unstable. The resource wealth they have doesn't actually make them better for the people because the corrupt elites fight over those resources.

2:06:05Francis Foster:And that's where you get the bullshit that you get.

2:06:08Konstantin Kisin:And it's true. So Venezuela, before Chavez came to power, was 98 % dependent on oil, the economy. The entire economy was 98 % dependent on oil. The slight difference with Venezuela is when we were taken over by Chavez, he then installed his cronies in charge of PDVSA, which is the Venezuelan oil company. And he cut out all the people who were competent, all the people who would criticize him ideologically. And as a result, what you had is fundamentally incompetent people at the top, which meant that it became degraded. It was no longer able to pump the oil. It wasn't reliable. So that's a large part of the reason why the economy collapsed is it was entirely dependent on oil.

2:06:53Konstantin Kisin:They appointed their cronies who couldn't actually do the job. The oil industry failed and we descended into poverty and chaos.

2:07:02Joe Rogan:How much do you know about Brazil? Not a lot. Why? Well, that situation is very confusing, right? Lula goes to jail. Now he's out. He's running the country. And they jailed Jair Bolsonaro, right?

2:07:18Konstantin Kisin:Mm-hmm.

2:07:19Joe Rogan:And then they tried to ban X. Yeah. And they did for a while, right? I think so. And they had to make probably some concessions.

2:07:29Francis Foster:I don't know a lot about it, truthfully, Joe. Yeah. Yeah. We're going to do that thing that no one does on the internet, is admit we don't know something.

2:07:36Joe Rogan:Well, as long as we don't have hot takes. What is this, Jimmy? These are kind of crazy descriptions of this weapon. And this is from the longer version of the CBS News 60 Minutes article where they're talking to that guy we just saw. I would say start right around here and then I'll skip to another paragraph. Look, it's three independent sources from different agencies tell us undercover Homeland Security agents purchased a miniaturized microwave weapon from a complex Russian criminal network. It's classified. We didn't see it, but it has been described to us. We're told it doesn't look anything like a gun.

2:08:07Joe Rogan:It's designed to be concealed and small enough to be carried by a person. It is silent and doesn't create heat like a microwave oven. Our sources say the device is programmable for different scenarios and can be operated by remote control. The range of the beam is several hundred feet. It can penetrate windows and drywall. The vital components were made in Russia. Our sources say the key is not the hardware but the software. The programming shapes a unique electromagnetic wave that rises and falls abruptly and pulses rapidly. So then it turns out they have tested this apparently in U.S. military labs.

2:08:41Joe Rogan:Our confidential sources tell us still classified weapon has been tested in a U.S. military lab for more than a year. Tests on rats and sheep show injuries consistent with those seen in humans. Also, as a separate part of the investigation, security camera videos have been collected that show Americans being hit. The videos are classified, but they were described to us in one, a camera in a restaurant in Istanbul. captured two FBI agents on vacation sitting at a table with their families. A man with a backpack walks in and suddenly everyone at the table grabs their head as if in pain. Our sources say that another video comes from a stairwell in the U.S.

2:09:20Joe Rogan:Embassy in Vienna. The stairs lead to a secure facility. In the video, two people on the stairs suddenly collapse. Those videos and the weapon were among the reasons the Biden administration summoned about half a dozen victims to the White House with about two months left in the president's term. And then that guy was also one of the people in there. The ads are kind of fucking up this website. But he just sort of said someone admitted to him that they treated him poorly. Yeah. That's the biggest cover-up I've seen in my adult life. A CIA officer. Interesting.

2:09:54Francis Foster:I don't get the – like the border – if Russia has this weapon, why don't they use it to take out Zelensky?

2:10:00Joe Rogan:Well, it seems like it's only for a couple hundred feet. That's what they were just saying. Like it has to be close. Right. So what was the one they used in Venezuela then? Yeah, they started off saying it was in a truck. It was truck size. But then that's where it goes. I started you just past that where they said it's actually way smaller. Interesting. So this is the one that you could carry around. But do we know that that's the same one they used in Venezuela? Or do they use something that's completely different technology?

2:10:24Konstantin Kisin:Yeah. The reality is we just don't know. I mean, the interesting thing as well with Venezuela is like Maduro is so retarded. he's such a hot take

2:10:38Joe Rogan:how retarded is he he's so retarded set up punchline

2:10:43Konstantin Kisin:he literally said to he said to America I'm not going to do what you say go fuck yourself come and get me

2:10:50Joe Rogan:yeah he did that that was cocaine

2:10:56Konstantin Kisin:and it's not just that so for instance the country next to Venezuela is called Guyana. And in Guyana, they recently discovered oil, really huge, large deposits of oil. And there's been, Guyana is a former British colony. And Venezuela and Guyana have always been disputes about territory, about one particular part of, I think it's called Esquibo, which is basically rainforest. They always argued about it, but no one cared until they discovered oil there. At which point Maduro went, you know what? you know how we've been talking about this? Turns out it is Venezuelan. They did a referendum in Venezuela where you basically asked a people who were entirely subjugated, starving, living in misery and poverty, whether they wanted to start a war with Guyana.

2:11:49Konstantin Kisin:Do you know how many Venezuelans voted for it? 92%, Joe. 92 % of Venezuelans wanted to go to war despite the fact they didn't have the strength to even pick up a gun because they're so malnourished and then he started teaching in schools redrawing the map of Venezuela so all the school kids now think that Venezuela incorporates this territory like he was antagonizing the Americans and their allies consistently and unlike Iran he doesn't have the infrastructure he doesn't have that amount of the military the power the organization he made himself so vulnerable so vulnerable who looks at

2:12:31Joe Rogan:Trump and goes yeah let's fuck with that guy right he's 80 he doesn't have much to lose right last term that's the scary thing about old leaders it's like death is imminent it's within a decade if you're lucky that's spooky that's spooky like you know you're making decisions for babies and children and the future of the world and you've only got 10 maybe 10 years left on on earth if everything

2:12:58Konstantin Kisin:goes great and also you start to degrade oh yeah your cognitive functions it doesn't i'm not saying that he's got dementia or anything like that but you're just not as sharp when you're that age as

2:13:09Francis Foster:you are when you're younger he is i mean he's kind of weird like when i think about how much barack obama aged yeah how much tony blair aged trump has not aged like that yeah and he is a

2:13:21Joe Rogan:terrible diet. I mean, especially when he's on the road. He just eats junk food because he says it's like JFK or RFK Jr. rather told me he eats junk food because he knows that when he eats fast food that it's not going to be poison. Like he knows he can eat it and not worry about getting food poisoning. What? Exactly. Does that make any fucking sense? Well, it does because it's filled with preservatives so you're not going to get food poisoning from a Big Mac. When was the last time you heard about anybody getting food poisoning from a Big Mac? Right. Fucking never happens because nothing can grow on those things.

2:13:57Joe Rogan:Really. Like for real. You've seen them. They take like a hamburger. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Decades. Decades. Decades. They don't rot. There's so much preservatives in the bread and whatever the meat is fucking made with.

2:14:09Francis Foster:But this is my point. It's like Trump hasn't aged like much younger men. Which is even crazier because you consider he doesn't exercise. Right. And he's been under colossal. I mean, I don't know, but I imagine he's been under a bit of pressure and stress. Well, assassination attempts.

2:14:25Joe Rogan:Yeah. And just all that. Almost going to jail. Yeah. Right? Like 34 felonies sort of trumped up, pardon the pun, against him. Yeah. Yeah. He's a Russian agent and all this bullshit. Yeah.

2:14:37Francis Foster:Yeah. Yeah. And he's just like, it's kind of like, it's kind of impressive in a way. Oh, that part's very impressive.

2:14:44Joe Rogan:Yeah. Yeah. And he's funny. Like, he's always joking around about that stuff. He's very light-hearted about it all.

2:14:50Francis Foster:Yeah, he is like when he was talking about the Iranian Navy Did you see that? He was like they've lost 14 ships. We sunk a submarine did this but apart from that they're doing really well

2:15:03Francis Foster:He's very relaxed for a man in that like it's hard to imagine I cannot imagine being in charge of anything like a

2:15:12Joe Rogan:Thousandth of that size right just imagine the stress that you guys have running trigonometry right yeah, right right stressful I'm sure Francis is aged like Barack Obama

2:15:23Konstantin Kisin:Now I just look like an aging lesbian John it is stressful, right?

2:15:28Joe Rogan:Yeah, and that is the highest stress that I can ever imagine I can't imagine a level higher.

2:15:35Konstantin Kisin:You know, I always remember after the war in Iraq and Blair was still in power, but it was towards the end I was watching the news with my dad and And this woman in her 50s came along and she put a wreath at the door of 10 Downing Street. And that was a mother whose son had died in Iraq and placed a wreath at 10 Downing Street of all the soldiers that died. Even if the war was justified, even if it was the right thing to do, which I don't think it was, I would still find it impossible to sleep. right now just imagine it was the colossal fuck up that that war was right and those people died as a result of your decision but how do you unless you're a sociopath i i think that's an you can't can you live with that right i don't think i think it's impossible to live with but

2:16:33Francis Foster:clearly not i mean we've got uh people who were heavily responsible for promoting that war in the uk now like alistair campbell he was the spin doctor that helped blair lie the country into the war in iraq he now has a really big podcast and like all the young people are oh really tell me more no way yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he's the rush limbo of the uk uh how do you mean sorry i don't know enough about rush limbo i've heard the name but i i can't i don't get the reference in the way that you mean it.

2:17:04Joe Rogan:He was the big right-wing propagandist on radio. Excellence in broadcasting. Oh, by the way, have you seen the memes that think that Rush Limbaugh is actually Jim Morrison? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you look at his facial features in comparison to Jim Morrison's facial features, they're almost identical. It's kind of nuts. They do like a scan where they like superimpose.

2:17:29Francis Foster:So Rush Limbaugh is a media guy. Alistair Campbell, he was working for Tony Blair to shape the media. Now he has a podcast.

2:17:37Joe Rogan:And all the young people are, oh, really? Well, there was a lot of young men in particular that were really into Rush Limbaugh. And a lot of people were crediting him with turning young people towards a right-wing direction. This was during the Obama administration. Like, look at this. Watch when they grow over.

2:17:59Konstantin Kisin:Pretty close. It's like Alex Jones and Bill Hicks. Have you seen that? That one's ridiculous.

2:18:04Joe Rogan:I met both of them. They don't look anything like each other. Look at this. Look at that. That is kind of crazy. Wow. It's pretty close.

2:18:15Joe Rogan:wow but you know the there's the other crazy conspiracy theory involving the countercultural move counterculture movement of the 1960s with the cia there's a there's a book on strange times in laurel canyon the book's nuts like you realize like how many of these very popular counterculture figures had families that were in the military yeah like high level military intelligence officers including Morrison.

2:18:41Konstantin Kisin:Oh, yeah. Morrison's dad was a very senior in the military. Yeah.

2:18:44Joe Rogan:And a bunch of other people that were also involved in the whole Laurel Canyon rock scene and that it was somehow or another at least promoted by intelligence agencies, if not formulated. And by counterculture, you mean like what? Like hippies?

2:19:02Francis Foster:Yep. Yeah. So the hippie movement was promoted by intelligence?

2:19:07Joe Rogan:Yeah. Why? That's a good question. Well, we know without saying definitively, but pretty close based on Tom O 'Neill's book, Chaos, that they were absolutely involved in the Manson family. So the reason for them being involved in the Manson family is, say, you have this new culture that's arising that doesn't embrace materialism, make love, not war. You got all these people, you know, drop out, tune in. Timothy Leary. Yeah, the Timothy Leary people, the people that want to do acid and just want to reimagine society. So this is a radical change. This is a radical change from the 1950s to the 1960s.

2:19:48Joe Rogan:It's pretty crazy. So what do you do to stop that? Well, what you do is you find a guy who's very charismatic, who is a sociopath, who's in prison. And you find that guy and teach him how to be a cult leader. And then you give him acid and you show him how to administer acid and how to not take it and have all of his followers take it and then direct their thoughts and then eventually program them like MKUltra style to commit murders. So they have to take LaBianca murders. They have a bunch of other stuff that they did before that. He's gotten arrested multiple times. Every time he gets arrested, they let him go.

2:20:22Joe Rogan:And when they let him go, like one of the sheriff says, I was told it was above my pay grade. So you're letting a guy go who's a violent criminal who's violating parole who's a lifelong con man. And now he is running this cult and this cult is murderous. So the Tate LaBianca murders, the Manson family murders, all that stuff becomes public. There's the hearings, the trials, the whole thing. So the entire public narrative changes on what a hippie is. Now hippies are dangerous. So before hippies were like we're nonviolent. We want love. We have flowers. And now it's like oh these fucking people will cut your baby out and write pig on the wall with your blood

2:20:59Konstantin Kisin:You know is the Altamont concert connected to that excuse me the Altamont concert You know, you know the Rolling Stones concert. Oh, that was the that was the Hell's Angels. Yeah, right? Yeah, yeah, and that was kind of seen I don't know It's just a question I'm asking like because that was seen as the end of the hippie movement wasn't it? That was the death that was the final death rattle, the hippie movement. Was it? That's how it was written and portrayed.

2:21:24Joe Rogan:Well, that's odd because the Hells Angels are not hippies. And having Hells Angels as security is a wild move. Yeah. That's crazy.

2:21:32Konstantin Kisin:Yeah, because it was a Rolling Stones concert, but because it was a free concert, wasn't it? That was a thing.

2:21:38Joe Rogan:How did they go about hiring? See if you can find the history on that. Did they go about hiring the Hells Angels? Yeah. Both previously used the Angels for security at performances without incident. Grateful Dead and Jefferson Airplane.

2:21:55Francis Foster:This is also, the next sentence says it was denied, so I don't know. Right. But that's what it says in the Wikipedia here.

2:22:03Joe Rogan:It says for$500 worth of beer. That's all they had to pay them. The story was denied by some parties who were directly involved. According to the road manager of the Rolling Stones' 1969 U.S. tour, Sam Cutler, The only agreement there ever was, the Angels would make sure that nobody tampered with the generators, and that was the extent of it. But there was no way they're going to be the police force or anything like that. That's all bollocks. The deal was made at a meeting including Cutler, Grateful Dead manager, Rock Scully, and Pete Nell, member of the Hells Angels San Francisco chapter. According to Cutler, the arrangement was that all the bands were supposed to share the$500 beer cost, but the person who paid it was me, and I never got it back to this day.

2:22:47Joe Rogan:Okay. So the Hells Angels guy says, we don't police things. We're not a security force. We go to concerts and enjoy ourselves and have fun. Well, what about helping people out, you know, giving directions and things? He says, sure, we can do that. How they would be paid. He said, we like beer. in the documentary Gimme Shelter, Sonny Barger, the guy that was the head of the Hells Angels, stated that the Hells Angels were not interested in policing the event, and that organizers had told them the Angels would not be required to do, or would be required rather, to do little more than sit on the edge of the stage, drink beer, and make sure there weren't any murders or rapes occurring.

2:23:26Konstantin Kisin:The only reason I said that is because that was kind of one of the events that was Heralded to be the death to be the end of the hippie movement, right?

2:23:35Joe Rogan:So what happened they stab people something happened?

2:23:37Konstantin Kisin:I think it was a free concert that the Rolling Stones and these bands put on and then it Degenerated and then a riot broke out and then the hell's angels. It was obviously not trained security But then went on the rampage

2:23:52Joe Rogan:And how many people died that I don't know? Does it say here Jamie?

2:24:01A woman got killed?

2:24:14Joe Rogan:Whoa.

2:24:20Joe Rogan:So it says concealing the remaining 14 stabbings? What?

2:24:31Joe Rogan:Anthony died. Oh, boy. Quitted after jury reviewed the concert footage. Rolling Stones were aware of the skirmish, but not the stabbing. Couldn't see anything. It's just another scuffle. Jagger tells David Males-less during film editing. It soon became apparent they could see something of what happened because the band stopped playing mid-song, and Jagger was hurt, calling into his microphone. Really got someone hurt here. Is there a doctor? After a few minutes, the band began playing again. eventually completed their set they had to get paid um the band of the show at one point was to say altamont became whether fairly or not a symbol for the death of the woodstock nation

2:25:17Joe Rogan:interesting yeah yeah i mean it seems like if you're going to have uh concerts especially going to have free concerts and you're going to be using hell's angels as a deterrent you know things could definitely go sideways yeah definitely and maybe they just got lucky before when they did

2:25:36Konstantin Kisin:it for jefferson airplane and the grateful dead yeah joe not to change the subject but have you

2:25:42Francis Foster:have you been following this beef between eddie hearn and dana white a little bit because it's kind of interesting to me because boxing seems to be like changing right because of what the ziffa boxing is doing is that is that something you're like excited about the possibility of the boxing, which has been in, you know, there's so much bullshit going on and you so very rarely see the best fighters fighting each other, that that might change?

2:26:06Joe Rogan:Well, the beef with those two, I don't know the root of it. I think it's essentially that, you know, it's competition. Like Dana's now entering into the MMA space.

2:26:16Francis Foster:Into the boxing space.

2:26:16Joe Rogan:Excuse me, the boxing space. And I was going to say Eddie Hearn is now entering into the MMA space because now he's a manager of Tom Aspinall, which is very interesting. Um, okay, anything that gets fighters more money, I'm for. Yeah. And, you know, more attention, more money, more different promoters, more people competing to give people higher purses. The real problem is with MMA, there's nothing. I mean, there's essentially the UFC and everything else is a distant second. Yeah. And it's a distant second in terms of attention. In some places, it's not a distant second. It's not a distant second in terms of revenue.

2:26:54Joe Rogan:Right. So like the PFL, for instance, the PFL was offering a million dollars for anybody who could win these tournaments. And the caliber of fighters that were winning this tournament were not the same caliber as UFC champions. And then some of the people that were competing in the UFC were not making as much money as these people that had left the UFC because they really weren't able to beat the best guys. They went over there and they made a million dollars. I think that's good for fighters. it's not good for really talented guys that really want to be the UFC champion because you can languish over there for a long time and there's some good examples of guys who spent four five six years over there that really had potential to be a world champion and they are you know in quotes a world champion over there but ask the average person on the street who they are no one knows, asking who Alex Pereira is, everybody knows.

2:27:47Joe Rogan:The thing is, those guys, if they're doing that and they're getting paid more, you have to make a decision. Like, are you willing to take more money now in this organization versus the potential of much more fame sponsors and maybe less money initially in the UFC? But if you can be a champion, that's really what every fighter wants to be. Because if you spend five, six years in an organization, the reality is your prime is about five, six years. You look at the elite of the elite guys, Anderson Silva in his prime, it's about five, six years. Fedor Emelianenko in his prime, it's about five, six years.

2:28:27Joe Rogan:So you could burn out your prime in an organization where you're not getting as much talent, not getting as much recognition. So it depends on what you're doing it for. If you're purely a prize fighter and you want to fight for the highest bidder. The difference between MMA and the UFC is you can do that in boxing. So in boxing, people go to see the fighter. You know, Terrence Crawford is fighting Canelo Alvarez. My mom could be the promoter. Nobody gives a shit. They want to see that fight. And you put that fight on pay-per-view, it's going to sell. You put it on DAZN, you put it on Netflix, it's going to sell.

2:29:02Joe Rogan:In MMA, that's not necessarily the case. the interesting challenge to that is this Netflix thing so with Ronda Rousey versus Gina Carano yeah even though Gina Carano hasn't fought since uh the 2000s I don't remember what year was the last time she fought I want to make a guess let me guess I want to say 2007 2008 when was the last time Gina Carano fought um and she's 43 and I think Ronda's 39 but Ronda's so famous and people are so interested and if it's on netflix and people already have netflix i guarantee you'll get millions of people that'll watch that so that'll be good right and that's good for the fighters and i know they offered uh some fighters that i know a very large purse to compete on that card well francis and garner might be one right he might be yeah that's there's talk of that no actually i think that's been i think that's been confirmed i think he's fighting philip lins

2:30:00Francis Foster:2009 okay so that was the last time she fought chris cyborg was a beast yeah there was a lot

2:30:06Joe Rogan:of supplements involved in that there's a lot going on with her i mean that was that was the wild west of testing and she looked freak yeah the eye test was kind of yeah the eye test was 100 percent yeah um so but it'll still be exciting people will you know and hopefully they've had enough time. I know there's a lot of video footage of Ronda training for quite a while. She lost a lot of weight. She got really slim. She looks fit. She looks outstanding, especially with her grappling. She's doing a lot of judo throws and arm bars and she's lost a step. There's a difference between that and competition.

2:30:42Joe Rogan:There's ring rust. There's a lot of factors. Gina Carano was a legit Muay Thai champion. She's got real power, and she was a very good striker when she was young. She was a very technical, solid striker when she was young. How long has it been since she, you know, well, I mean, how long did she stop training for, right? She did movies. She's done The Mandalorian. She's had a lot of success acting. But it seems like there was probably quite a bit of time. She lost a ton of weight, too. Look. And she looks quite a bit bigger than Rodney.

2:31:13Francis Foster:Those are two attractive ladies, if I say so.

2:31:16Joe Rogan:Yep.

2:31:17Konstantin Kisin:And Jake Paul is in the middle. Yeah, Rodney looks very angry. He looks kind of awkward there, Jake, to be honest.

2:31:26Joe Rogan:You know, when it comes to grappling, you give Ronda a big advantage. She's one of the best submission artists ever, period. You know, her arm bar is about as good as it gets. She's got fantastic judo, bronze medalist in the Olympics. But when it comes to Gina, Gina was a solid striker when she was young. And the difference in striking would definitely benefit Gina. You would have to lean in her direction. But again, when you're talking about like 2009, it's a long time, man. 17 years. It's a long time to not compete.

2:31:56Francis Foster:Well, there do seem to be a lot of fights nowadays and in various disciplines happening where it's like you're not seeing people at the prime. You're maybe sometimes seeing people who aren't professionals. Right. But are famous. And there seems to be a lot of money to be made doing that.

2:32:10Joe Rogan:Yeah. As long as you match them correctly. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

2:32:13Konstantin Kisin:That was the thing that was wild with Jake Paul versus Anthony Joshua. Jake Paul is a cruiserweight and you've got Joshua who is heavy for the heavyweight division you looked at the size matchup between the two and at one point I was like he's going to kill him

2:32:29Joe Rogan:well he did I mean I think Jake probably knew it going in and I think his game plan was just to move a lot and he did a lot of that, did a lot of moving he hit him a few times and he hit him with some wild shots from the outside where he kind of dove in and threw wild punches. I think that was probably part of the strategy. But, I mean, ultimately, you're looking at Anthony Joshua, who's not just a heavyweight champion in boxing, but a one-punch knockout artist and a former Olympic gold medalist. He's a fucking highly skilled man. Very highly, highly skilled.

2:33:03Francis Foster:That was a strange fight because up to that point, Jake's pole fight was the other way around. Like, he clearly had an advantage. And that was like flipping the script the other way.

2:33:12Joe Rogan:Well, smart dude, you know, very smart. Do you think that was smart? Yeah. Very smart in how he promotes himself. Smart in that you can't criticize him for not fighting dangerous fights anymore. Well, that you've got to respect. Yeah. The Mike Tyson one was a little sus.

2:33:26Francis Foster:I mean, Mike Tyson is on the older side. Whereas Anthony Joshua, he's not that old. It's not just that. The fight itself was a little sus.

2:33:34Joe Rogan:How do you mean? Because it looked like a sparring match. It looked like there was an agreement in place. Okay. I don't know if there was, but Terrence Crawford thought it was. Really? Yeah. It looked a little sus.

2:33:45Konstantin Kisin:I mean, Mike is, how old is Mike? 58? 59? Yeah.

2:33:48Francis Foster:I mean, I still wouldn't get in a ring with him.

2:33:50Joe Rogan:Yeah, no, I'd still kill you. But it's like, I mean, it's not saying that Jake would have even won. I mean, who knows? I mean, if Mike really could have, like you saw he's capable of those flurries when he's hitting pads. He's still capable of massive speed and power. It's not saying that, but it's like, could he sustain a real fight? Does he want to get hit in the head anymore at this point in his life?

2:34:13Konstantin Kisin:And it's also when you get to that age, you can look and you can, there'll be glimpses where you're like, oh, this is the old, the Tyson of old. But it's also as well, he's still a 58-year-old dude. You know, a punch around the head, that can cause a brain hemorrhage, et cetera. And he can die. Fighters die at the peak of their powers or get brain damage. I mean, it's going to be, I'm no neurologist, but I'm certain that that is a higher risk when you're a 58. Yeah, I would recommend it.

2:34:43Francis Foster:so this is why I asked you about Eddie Hearn and Dana there's talk about them having a boxing match

2:34:47Joe Rogan:oh that's funny Dana can box he can really box I've seen Dana hit mitts before I've seen Dana spar Dana can actually box and there was a time where Dana was supposed to have a boxing match with Tito Ortiz

2:34:57Konstantin Kisin:right wow

2:34:58Joe Rogan:and even Tito acknowledged because Dana was his manager at one point in time even Tito acknowledged Dana's a really good boxer he can box he spent a lot of his time boxing when he was young I mean, I don't know how much of it he's doing these days. He's so fucking busy. Yeah. You know, he's so involved in Zufa boxing now. And he's involved in some of these Riyadh season events. So it's like, you know, I don't, I think it's probably just talk. Eddie Hearn's a very tall guy, though. He's a big dude.

2:35:27Francis Foster:Yeah, he's a big dude. And he used to box as well. Did he? He used to, he boxed his dad, I think. I heard him talking about that. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. There's a fight. Yeah. I mean, I guess.

2:35:37Joe Rogan:I don't want to see it. I'll watch though

2:35:40Francis Foster:well this is what I mean you don't want to see it

2:35:42Joe Rogan:but you'll watch well there's certain things I don't want to see that I watch like slap fight like if someone sends me a video if it shows up on my Instagram feed of some poor slob getting slapped into the shadow realm I'll watch it just for how they hit their head off the table and stiffen up on the way down yeah

2:35:59Konstantin Kisin:that's combat sports for the TikTok generation yeah

2:36:02Joe Rogan:when you think about it it's not even combat sports I mean it's just slapping each other that's all it is If you want to call slapping each other a sport, that seems crazy. It's also there's a fundamental problem with slap fighting is that someone has to go first. Yeah. And that's a giant advantage. Right. Going first is the biggest advantage of all time. Right. And how is that decided? Coin toss? I don't know. I don't watch it. Is it?

2:36:27Francis Foster:I have no idea. No. I don't know. I physically can't watch it, to be honest.

2:36:32Joe Rogan:Yeah. Well, to me, it's like this, at least Zoo for Boxing, is real. This is a real combat sport, whereas it's not just slapping each other in the head.

2:36:41Francis Foster:Well, to me, the exciting thing, and correct me if this is wrong, but the exciting thing is it has felt for a long time that seeing top boxers fighting each other is a rare occurrence. Right. UFC, you see that every single card.

2:36:52Joe Rogan:Yeah. Well, the Saudis are stepping up, and that's, you know, with Turkey Alsheikh, like his role in boxing has really changed that. Like what they've done with Riyadh season's done is make fights that managers have said don't do this. Like a good one is Martin Boccoli versus – God, I forget his name. Anderson.

2:37:20Joe Rogan:Young prospect. Very good fighter. And Boccoli is a fucking big, dangerous guy. And Boccoli knocked this guy out. Jared Anderson. Jared Anderson. That's it. But Jared Anderson was undefeated, up-and-coming prospect, young guy, and Boccoli beat him up. And he really wasn't there yet. He wasn't ready for that guy yet. And Boccoli stopped him, and that derailed this guy's career. But he probably got a big paycheck. Right. Right. And so what I understand is there was a lot of people saying, that's a bad fight to make.

2:37:54Francis Foster:Don't do it. Yeah, I mean, the UFC has been, seems to me from the outside, quite careful about like giving people like Bo Nickel and Raul Rosas Jr. and Sean O'Malley, just trying to get them to build up slow. And even they've, you know, Raul and Bo Nickel both lost at one point, right?

2:38:11Joe Rogan:Well, yeah. Well, Bo Nickel fought Reiner DeRitter, who's a one champion and a huge guy for the middleweight division. And Reiner did a fantastic job of, you know, you don't want to take Reiner to the ground because he's an elite submission athlete. And standing up, he's got vicious knees to the body. That's like one of his best weapons. And he fucked Bo up. But that was a good fight for Bo because he came back from that and fought Adolfo Vieira and looked fantastic afterwards. Like he's a real competitor and a winner. And the kind of guy that gets knocked down like that is going to get back up and be five times more ferocious.

2:38:45Joe Rogan:And that's what he is. But, you know, it's one of those things where it's like, why do you protect some people and not protect others? You know, and is it because they have better management? Is it, you know, because sometimes the UFC will tell you, like, if you want to fight in the UFC, hey, we've got to fight. We need an opponent in four days. Someone dropped out and you're going to fight blank. and that person who you're going to fight might be a surging contender who's fucking terrifying he's putting everybody to sleep and you have to make a decision like this is not a good fight for me at this point in my career but if i say no to the ufc maybe they will never offer me a fight

2:39:22Konstantin Kisin:again and also you're a fighter and fighters from everything that i know you're gonna back yourself

2:39:29Joe Rogan:yes but you have to do that intelligently right you have to realize that if you if you are in a process and this is the thing about everyone up into like championship level up until a certain point in time when you plateau everyone is constantly getting better so if you you you get better from training you get better from work with your coaches but you also get better with experience and what boxers and boxing management has always done is make sure that you get the proper experience and the proper kinds of opponents are going to test you in certain ways along the way. So the idea is you give a fighter a stiff test that they can pass.

2:40:04Joe Rogan:You don't give a fighter a chance where they're going to compete against someone who's many, many levels above them and they don't have a chance at all because that can destroy confidence that could cause real damage to you. You can get really badly hurt and never be the same again. There's certain fights that fighters have where they're never the same again. They get knocked out by someone and they just aren't the same. They get a flying knee to the face and they're done. They get a head kick and they're done and they just are never the same guy again you could point to numerous examples of good fights where there weren't mismatches but that a fighter was never the same again it's a dangerous sport it's it's i mean it is the most in i mean it's not the most in terms of death boxing is the most in terms of death and i think that's because they have less options you know you can't clinch you can't hold on try to take a fight to the ground you can't defend yourself as well there's also the thing where you get knocked down and you get back up well you clear your head momentarily but you're still fucked and now you can't get out of the way of punches and now you're really getting fucked up and you're getting much more damage than you would have gotten if you got clipped that first time and then the guy punched you a couple times when you're on the ground you got choked out yeah or you got choked out is way better yeah choked out is way better arm bar way

2:41:15Konstantin Kisin:better just tap and then you're good it's also the duration of the fights boxing matches tend to last for a lot longer normally if they go the duration.

2:41:22Joe Rogan:They certainly can if it's 12 minutes, right? You're dealing with 36 minutes of fighting, of getting punched in the head versus 25 for an MMA fight. The opposite of that, you would say, though, but they're not getting slammed on their head. They're not getting kicked. They're not getting kneed in the face. They're not getting cut open with elbows. There's a lot of things that can happen in an MMA fight that are way worse.

2:41:43Konstantin Kisin:But do you also think as well that when I watch MMA, losses look of course losses are detrimental and they affect careers and they knock people back but they don't seem to be as consequential as losses in boxing in terms of your career in terms

2:41:57Joe Rogan:of your career and the way you're perceived right well i think it's accepted that if you're fighting a bunch of different styles you know style versus style you're there's always a potential of losing especially amongst the elite of the elite and you're seeing more of that in mma at the highest level yeah you're not seeing guys avoiding each other because there's one champion and it's a ufc champion in that weight class and you have to fight that guy if you want the title right whereas there's the wbc the wbo the ibf and you have all these different organizations for boxing and so you can be a champion while avoiding the other champions whereas in the ufc that's the thing

2:42:34Francis Foster:that's exciting is like you get to see max holloway who's a super dominant guy right and And then he fights Charles Oliveira. Yeah. And it doesn't go that way. It was crazy.

2:42:45Joe Rogan:That was so dominant. Yeah, it was so dominant. And Max Holloway was a two-to-one favorite, at least at some points in the betting line. Yeah.

2:42:52Francis Foster:Yeah. And it kind of, I mean, obviously, Hamzat Chemaev is a whole category of its own. But it sort of felt a little bit that level of domination on the ground.

2:43:00Joe Rogan:Yeah. The difference is Holloway was getting dominated on the feet, too. Oliveira's fucking dangerous as shit on the feet. I mean, he was better. They're everywhere. Yeah. And he's bigger. He's a bigger guy. You could see that in the exchanges. Like, every time he got a clinch on Max, he just hoisted him up in the air and slammed him to the ground. It was so definitive. Right. That was a spectacular performance by Olivera. It was. But the thing, my concern going into that fight was I'd watched the Mateus Gamrot fight with Olivera. I'm like, Olivera is as good, if not better, than he's ever been before.

2:43:35Joe Rogan:Gamrot is fucking dangerous. And he's a really good grappler. And they went to the ground and he was lost. Oliveira was just tying him up in knots. He wasn't able to get anything off on Oliveira. I'm like, what is Max going to be able to do on the ground against this guy? And then when it comes to standing up, Justin Gaethje said no one ever hit him harder than Oliveira did. That Oliveira, it's like he carries big power in his punches and big power in his kicks too. And he's so reckless on the feet. Not reckless, I should say, but so aggressive on the feet because he wants you to take him to the ground.

2:44:05Joe Rogan:Because he's the best submission artist in the history of the sport. He has more submissions than anyone ever in the history of the sport. Wow. And the thing that you don't appreciate,

2:44:12Konstantin Kisin:I mean, you really kindly sorted out tickets for us in the UFC in New York. And you know these guys kick hard. You know they punch hard. But when you're there ringside and you feel the kick, you're like, oh. Oh, yeah, you guys are close.

2:44:25Joe Rogan:That's the thing is when you're close, you can hear the boom.

2:44:28Francis Foster:Well, do you know what happened, though, in New York? We sat down, and then some guy that I didn't initially recognize came and sat in front of us. And that was Dylan Dennis. and he kicks off this whole... Oh, that was so fun.

2:44:39Joe Rogan:The brawl.

2:44:40Francis Foster:He sat literally right in front of us. Oh, you had a front row seat? Yeah, we did. So the actual fight. Oh, boy. Was that exciting? Yeah. Well, I just turned to the side and then there was this just giant brawl right in front of us all of a sudden.

2:44:53Joe Rogan:Those are very unfortunate. Yeah. I don't like those.

2:44:55Francis Foster:Yeah, no, me neither. It was crazy. It was crazy.

2:44:58Joe Rogan:Well, Dylan Dennis, he knows how to get a lot of attention.

2:45:00Francis Foster:Yeah.

2:45:01Konstantin Kisin:And I will say this. I don't agree with his behavior, But unlike a lot of online trolls that guy actually does it in real life. Do you know what I mean? Right? He actually died like I don't know Dylan can fight he can fight.

2:45:14Joe Rogan:He's a very good submission artist He's a Marcelo Garcia black belt. He's very legit on the ground Conor McGregor brought him in for training like for a lot of his camps.

2:45:23Francis Foster:Yeah.

2:45:23Joe Rogan:Yeah, are you excited for the White House card? That looks really good Yes I'm excited. It's it sounds crazy I know it's going to be very high security and high stress and weird to have a fight at the White House in the middle of a fucking war. I would hope the war will be sorted out by June. But quite honestly, I'm not confident that that's going to be the case. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. So that would be weird. Yeah. Having this very high profile event where everybody's in one place at one time right there. I hadn't thought of that. Yeah. Yeah. So you're not excited to be there?

2:45:55Francis Foster:Well, that seems like you're asking for. Holy shit. I hadn't thought of that at all. How could you not think of that? Because I'm not gonna be there. You're the one that has to think of it. I was just like this is a great lineup I look forward to the fights. Yeah, because if you want to talk about hidden heart I mean Ilya Teporia, fuck me.

2:46:10Joe Rogan:That's when you think like Max Holloway and Charles Olivera, Charles Olivera dominates Max Holloway and then you realize like how quickly Ilya Teporia starched Charles Olivera and you go how good is that guy, right? He's a once-in-a-generation talent like he's he knocked out in three fights three all-time greats. Volkanovski, and then he knocks out Max Holloway, and then he knocks out Charles Oliveira. In two different weight classes, he knocks out three all-time greats, three fights in a row. And he just definitive, starching of these guys. Like, he's a once-in-a-generation talent.

2:46:51Francis Foster:And think how good Volk, how dominant Volk is. Yeah.

2:46:54Joe Rogan:Like, how good he looked against Diego Lopez. Right. How good Max Holloway looks all the time, especially in striking exchanges max is a very hard guy to hit and ilia just dominated him he's fucking spooky good and insanely confident insanely charismatic yeah do you think part of it as well is just

2:47:11Konstantin Kisin:technique is so important is the is the most important thing because you look at yusik when he came up against fury and the first fight i didn't give yusik a prayer like yusik is basically a glorified cruiserweight right and you look at tyson fury 6a undefeated you know he comes from a traveler background. This is a guy who was taught to box from the age of three. I've taught traveler kids. They all taught how to fight. They know how to fight. They know how to throw punches. Boxing is in their blood. And you just saw that he was so technically supreme that Fury had no answer and lost consecutive fights against him.

2:47:46Joe Rogan:Yeah, and then look at what he did to Dubois. Yeah. Usyk is special. I mean, he's basically a gigantic Lomachenko. Like, unbelievable movement, and he was trained by Lomachenko's father as well. same trainer yeah I mean there's just people that are better than everybody else and it seems like Ilya Teporia is one of those guys he's just weirdly better than everybody else and he can take it too like one of the fights that he had so when he was competing at featherweight he took a fight at lightweight against Jai Herbert and Jai Herbert in the first round caught him with a perfect head kick rocked him dropped him and Ilya Teporia wound up grabbing his legs taking him down They fought on the ground.

2:48:27Joe Rogan:And then the second round, Ilya just put him into the shadow realm. He hit him with a combination against the cage where he hit him with, I think it was a left hook to the body and a right overhand that just spun his head around. It was wild. I mean, face first, face planted. He's got freakish power. So it is technique. His technique is flawless. His technique in the grappling is flawless. But it's also— Oh, is he good at grappling as well? He's phenomenal at grappling. Really? That's his main base. He started off as a grappler. Really? Yeah, I didn't even know that. Oh, yeah Yeah, and his early fights are just taking you don't see that much nowadays.

2:49:01Joe Rogan:He just fucking knocks everyone out basically, right? He's just It's his mind more than anything. His confidence is real. It's not bluster Like he's really sick. He celebrates the fights the day before the fight He has a celebration of his victory. He did that against Charles Oliveira. They all went to dinner. They're making toasts celebrating his victory the night before the fight itself.

2:49:25Konstantin Kisin:That's a high-risk strategy.

2:49:27Joe Rogan:It's a crazy thing. Meanwhile, it goes out and knocks him out in the first round. Like, who fucking knocks out Charles Oliveira in the first round like that? Especially now, like the Charles Oliveira of today. That's crazy. He's—it's many things. But the mind that allowed him to get so elite at grappling also allowed him to get so elite at striking. And it's setups and traps. It's not just throwing wild bombs. It's defense. His defense is fantastic. You saw that in the Josh Emmett fight. Josh Emmett, as far as one-punch power, he rivals everybody. You saw that fight where he knocked Bryce Mitchell out with a punch to the forehead.

2:50:04Joe Rogan:That guy hits so fucking hard. And when you look at it, it makes sense. I mean, he's a fucking tank. And Ilya Deporia just slipped away from everything, slipped away from everything, and then eventually just put it on him. He's great everywhere, man. He's great on the ground. He's great standing up. And more importantly, it's his mind. Like he doesn't make mistakes. He's just a force in there. He's the new breed. You know, like with every generation, every generation builds on the success of the previous generation. They all learn from the elites of the past. He's our version of what's possible now.

2:50:42Joe Rogan:Wow. He's that good.

2:50:44Francis Foster:I was hoping for the White House card, Dana would do something and pull Jon Jones out of the bag.

2:50:49Joe Rogan:I was hoping that as well. Yeah, I was hoping that as well.

2:50:52Francis Foster:That would have been really special.

2:50:54Joe Rogan:Yeah, I don't know why that didn't happen. I don't know. I mean, there's John's version. There's the UFC's version. I don't know what was the stumbling block there.

2:51:02Francis Foster:Well, I think it's fair to say him and Dana don't get on very well.

2:51:05Joe Rogan:I don't think it's that bad. They certainly could make a deal. I don't think it's as bad as, say, Francis Ngannou. The Francis Ngannou situation, Dana does not like him at all and won't do any business with him, period.

2:51:18Francis Foster:Because that would be the fight. Francis Ngannis versus Jon Jones. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my word, that would be good.

2:51:23Joe Rogan:But also Alex Pereira versus Jon Jones would be the fight as well. Like, you wouldn't—it didn't—a title doesn't mean anything. You could do the BMF heavyweight version. Like, it doesn't matter. Right. Like, just those two guys fighting. I mean, that would be—titles are irrelevant when you're dealing with the all-time great in Jon Jones, the greatest of all time. And then Alex Pereira, a generational talent, who's the most devastating striker we've ever seen inside the sport. I mean, as you look at Ilya, I mean, Ilya is phenomenal, but Ilya is like more complete as a fighter. But Alex is freaky.

2:51:56Joe Rogan:Did I ever tell you what Mark Goddard said when he fought Khalil Rountree? So he beats Khalil Rountree up and they stop the fight. And then Mark Goddard grabs me like as I go into the octagon. He goes, the sound it makes when he hits them is ungodly. That's what he said. He goes, mate, I've been doing this for 20 years. He goes, I've seen it all. He goes, it's different. The sound, the impact is like, he's a freak, man. That guy, he's a physical freak. I mean, he's a real genuine Amazon warrior who's just built different than other people. You know, I'm sure you've seen him punch that machine.

2:52:36Joe Rogan:Yeah. Where he gets like 190. Francis Ngannou got like 129. What? And he got 190. Yeah.

2:52:43Francis Foster:Holy shit. Yeah, no, it's freak power. I did not enjoy watching the end of that Khalil Roundtree fight. I'm not going to lie. No, it was rough. That was rough. And Khalil Roundtree is like a fucking animal.

2:52:53Joe Rogan:He's a warrior. He's just a warrior. I mean, he knew going into that fight, he was willing to go out on his shield. He wasn't afraid. And he went after him. He went after him. He did. But the consequences of getting hit. And then Alex was starting to tune him up at the end where he was leaning away from shots and then countering and leaning away from shots and countering. He was in his flow state. and that's where it got real spooky because Khalil became like a sitting target and with each shot his ability to get out of the way diminished with each kick that landed his ability to move

2:53:23Konstantin Kisin:diminished and it got spooky yeah and then it becomes a dilemma for the referee yeah like when do you actually step in because look there's a consent for the fighter to be there and to take part in the fight but there comes a point where you have to step in for the for the fighter's own

2:53:38Joe Rogan:health yeah there comes a point where you realize they can't defend themselves anymore and they're getting just tuned up and that was the end of the fight I mean that was the right time to stop it but it was hard to watch it was but then you get fights

2:53:50Francis Foster:like Usman versus Leon Edwards mm-hmm where he's getting smashed for five rounds and he just fucking pulls a kick out of the last minute and knocks him out yeah so but he wasn't in smashed not not the way Khalil roundtree was at the end

2:54:01Joe Rogan:that's yeah he wasn't getting he was getting beat he was getting beat yeah but he wasn't like in danger of getting stopped or really hurt badly yeah but

2:54:09Konstantin Kisin:But that's why we all watch it, because it's that knowledge that anything can happen.

2:54:13Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:54:14Konstantin Kisin:You know, Hakeem Rahman versus Lennox Lewis. No one gave Hakeem a prayer when he went in. Lennox is a supreme fighter, Olympic gold medalist, one of the greatest to ever do it. And then that one punch he hit flush on Lennox's jaw and he was out. I remember watching it going, I mean, no one saw that.

2:54:33Joe Rogan:Especially in the heavyweight division, one punch with those guys.

2:54:36Francis Foster:Yeah. It's why I really like it because in our world, like, you know, if I do a debate, everyone talks shit to each other. And, like, you know, everyone talks shit, then they go have a debate, everyone still talks shit afterwards. In combat sports, everyone talks shit and then you find out.

2:54:49Joe Rogan:Right. Yeah. It's very definitive. You win or you lose. It's not subject to other people's interpretations. Because, like, you'll see that in debates, too. Like, I'll see a debate where I think, like, for you, for example, well, you clearly won the debate. And then I'll see people say you got owned.

2:55:06Francis Foster:Right. You know, and they're like, okay. All the people who agree with me say I dominated, and all the people who agree with the other guys say he dominated.

2:55:12Joe Rogan:Yeah, and you'll see these pundits. And that's a weird economy, right? There's a weird economy of commentators on other people's exchanges. Yeah.

2:55:20Francis Foster:And that is a weird sport. It's weird. You've made loads of careers. There's loads of people. Joe Rogan said this on his podcast. That's the entire content.

2:55:29Joe Rogan:They work for me.

2:55:30Francis Foster:They don't even know it. They do. They make me more famous. Right. You're getting all the kickbacks.

2:55:35Joe Rogan:Also, you get to see what kind of a person they are, right? And they're silly, bitchy people. You go like, well, those silly, bitchy people don't like them. Or maybe someone who you agree with doesn't like me. Like, oh, I don't like them anymore. Yeah. Which is fine. But it's like that economy of commenting on other people constantly. The problem with that is you've always put yourself in a position of an outsider. You know, you're a – like me. When it comes to combat sports, I'm a commentator. That's all I do. I can't fight I'm 58 right. I'm not going in there So it's like I'm always going to be in this position of only being an observer and a commentator I'm not going to be like for those people that are commentating on these debates a lot of them probably Fancy themselves intellectual gladiators.

2:56:20Joe Rogan:They just don't get the opportunity to do it And occasionally they do and they usually get trounced right because really they're not that good Which is why they're commenting in the first place and why they have these fucking stupid hot takes

2:56:32Francis Foster:Well, you know the frustrating thing for me with the debates nowadays is how few people want to have an actual discussion Right. It was so refreshing we last time we came here. We had Dave Smith on our show I don't know if you saw that. Yeah, I did.

2:56:45Joe Rogan:Yeah

2:56:46Francis Foster:We loved it. We loved it. And Dave enjoyed it. And, you know, it was weird because we obviously have lots of different perspectives on things. But afterwards, a lot of people were like, oh, I can't believe you had Dave on. And I said to all of them, listen, Dave's only crime is that he has a different opinion to you. Because apart from that, he comes in, he shows up, he's super nice, he's respectful, he's polite, he doesn't do any dirty tricks. He doesn't argue about the definitions of words for 10 minutes. right he just goes here's my opinion here's your opinion let's discuss yeah and that's how conversations should happen right but so much of the debate stuff now is not people aren't discussing the issues they've just like decided you're a bad person and that's what they're trying to achieve they're trying to get a cheap laugh from the audience that they're playing to who's not even in the room because they know their retard followers are going to watch it online afterwards and be like oh he owned him but where did we get to well it's just i mean it's just some

2:57:43Joe Rogan:people that are doing that, you know, and those people, that's all they can do. That's why they do it that way. Right. You know, if they were really intellectually compelling and if they were like smart people, like I don't want enemies. Like if I can have a sane, rational, peaceful discussion with someone where we disagree with something, I would greatly prefer that than have someone who's insulting me and I'm insulting them. We're trying to like get off on each other. Like why?

2:58:07Francis Foster:Yeah.

2:58:08Joe Rogan:I'm busy.

2:58:09Francis Foster:Yeah.

2:58:09Joe Rogan:I have things to do. Like I don't need that kind Bullshit in my life and I don't mind when someone disagrees with me. I think it's healthy I know I also want to know why you think the way you think genuinely right

2:58:20Konstantin Kisin:I you know I see it as an opportunity as like because we all have blind spots. Yeah, we all have blind spots We all have biases. I don't care who you are how smart you are your biases

2:58:35Konstantin Kisin:But when someone goes well actually Francis you say this but what about this? Have you thought about this? Have you read about this? I'm like, no. And it's like, well, maybe you should. Right. And maybe you actually, maybe won't change your opinion, but certainly have a more nuanced opinion. True.

2:58:50Francis Foster:Yeah. But also, we're talking about shit that actually matters. Mm-hmm. You know? And it deserves to be taken seriously.

2:58:57Joe Rogan:Yeah. Well, the answer is don't engage with those certain people. Yeah. You know? I'm learning that. Yeah, we were having a conversation about one particular individual. Yeah. Where I'm like, why? Yeah. Don't bother.

2:59:07Francis Foster:I can't believe you. I didn't say anything about that discussion because I was just like, I don't want anyone to waste their fucking time watching it. It was awful.

2:59:14Joe Rogan:I'm fascinated by that, too, though, because I'm fascinated by these people that are doing that where they're just trying to win and use tricks and be sneaky. Because, like, they think of discourse in a completely different way. Right. They think about the whole thing in a completely different way. They're completely ideologically captured. and the place they're starting from is, I want to prove this to be correct, not I want to know why this person believes it to be incorrect and I want to find out if maybe we have common ground and maybe they know something I don't or maybe I know something they don't and let's find out.

2:59:47Konstantin Kisin:You know what I really want? And Constance and I have talked about it a lot. I want somebody on the left to come out and be brilliant at debating and go to people on the right, well, you say this and you say this, but actually let's look at this, let's look at that and be a genuine intellectual force. And what I despair of is I haven't seen anyone be from the left like that in basically a generation.

3:00:08Joe Rogan:I think the generation that you're talking about has been captured by some certain narratives that you have to agree to that aren't rational. So as soon as you do that and you align yourself with this particular ideology, you're already saying I'm willing to believe some shit that doesn't make any sense at all because this is the only way to be accepted by my tribe. that intellectually compromises you. And that also, I think, humiliates you in a certain way. It puts you in a position where you're saying something that you know can't be true, so you set up blind spots. Do you think they know it's not true?

3:00:41Joe Rogan:I think there's gotta be a part of them that realizes there's a good argument that it's not true. Especially when it comes to transgender stuff or border stuff. There's certain things where there's no real good faith argument that you should have an open border and allow fucking any psychopath to come across the border and invade your community. That seems crazy. That seems crazy. Like if you understand anything about human nature and the nature of the world and the level of poverty and crime that exists outside of the United States, particularly in third world countries, we're just allowing people.

3:01:15Konstantin Kisin:I thought you were talking about Canada there, Joe. I'm all for them invading.

3:01:19Joe Rogan:They should come over.

3:01:20Francis Foster:They should bail on their country until it gets better. I just ask you because I would find it so hard to go on stage in front of, well, what is now hundreds of thousands of people by the time it goes on the internet, right? And just vigorously defend something I didn't believe.

3:01:34Joe Rogan:Well, that's because you're smart. And I think the problem is a lot of these people aren't really intelligent. What they are is a person who has a good vocabulary, who's acquired a certain amount of technique and skill involved in talking really fast and spouting things that they've seen online, a bunch of narratives. Like one of the things that people love to do is if you're talking to anyone that's on the right, they want to say, you know, you support a 34-time convicted felon. And there's a lot of things that they like to say. There's techniques involved instead of like discussing anybody that looked at the actual Trump case If you're rational and you're on the left is that's a crazy case.

3:02:17Joe Rogan:There's no way that should be a felony It's not a felony there 34 different misdemeanors and it's also it's past the statute of limitations This is a craziest egregious misuse of justice And the scary thing is if someone on the right gets in they decide to do that someone left Like you got to put your foot down stop that from happening the Russia Russia Russia stuff Like all that stuff, the Russiagate stuff. That's kind of crazy that someone on the left doesn't call that out and say, hey, guys, this is fucking dangerous. Because if you're lying and you're having intelligence agencies lie and you're having people lie on television and you're just accepting that, what, because it's your side?

3:02:54Joe Rogan:They're supporting your side? That's why. That's crazy.

3:02:56Francis Foster:That's why. And I find that very strange because what they do is they pivot to that, which is not relevant to the conversation we're having. Exactly. We're talking about, you know, is it right to do these strikes on Iran or is it this or is it that? Is, you know, what's the situation in the Middle East or whatever? How does bringing up Trump's convictions or otherwise change that? It doesn't affect that conversation. At all. Or the border or the trans thing or any of the other things. And that's the thing is like can we just argue the fucking point?

3:03:26Joe Rogan:Well, I think at a certain point in time you're going to have to choose real opponents. It's like a Jake Paul thing. But see, I want the real opponents, but where are they?

3:03:36Francis Foster:Where are they? And we've had people on the show where it's like we had this woman from the Guilty Feminist podcast. And she came on and we gave her 40 minutes. She basically laid out her whole vision. And it was respectful and polite. And it was a great conversation, actually. The moment I said, well, you know, you've been speaking for this time. Here's some of the things that I see that don't make sense in my head. Can you help me out? Immediately goes personal. Immediately. Yeah. And that's what Francis is saying. Like I'd love to see people who have an ability to argue the point. Yeah. And that's what Dave does.

3:04:11Francis Foster:He argues the point and that's either persuasive to you or it isn't. Well, I think the problem is their point is not very good. Yeah. Yeah.

3:04:19Joe Rogan:I think that is the problem. Yeah. And so you have to go personal. You have to attack people. You have to use ad hominems. It's the only way you can get anything off. And then you can try to get that person emotional and trap them. So why don't they change their opinion then? It's a good question because if you're ideologically captured especially if you're on the left like it's a very clear ideology and there's like Real blowback for deviating from it. Yeah as we know right because the moment you say well

3:04:45Francis Foster:You're no longer on the left. Right.

3:04:47Joe Rogan:Yeah, you know a lot of people have been kicked out of it Yeah, a lot of people have been pushed into some weird quasi Yeah homeless land well, that's how we all ended up was like right wing

3:04:57Francis Foster:It was like, fuck off with this shit. Yeah, fuck off with this shit. You know, 20 years ago, all the stuff that we talk about, it wasn't just, like, not right-wing. No one questioned. Do you remember 25 years ago people running around going, we need an open border? Right. Right? Or, like, you can change your sex by just going, like, abracadabra. Right. No one said that. Right. And so we weren't right-wing for, like, going, that's crazy. I know.

3:05:24Konstantin Kisin:You know, the most bizarre thing is watching all these kind of left-wing lesbian feminists be described as right-wing and getting kicked out. J.K. Rowling is an answer.

3:05:34Joe Rogan:Martina Navarro over.

3:05:36Konstantin Kisin:Fuck my way. There's a journalist called Julie Bindle, who used to write The Guardian, one of the most left-wing journalists, and she's a lesbian, and she criticised, like, and she was like the trans movement. That was it. Out the door. It doesn't matter what you've done before. It doesn't matter you've done all this incredible work with women in female prisons.

3:05:53Joe Rogan:Well, it's because it's a cult. I mean it's essentially like a religious ideology. Like they will not take any heretics. Like anybody that deviates from whatever their doctrine is, like you're out. You're out forever. And that scares people. So that's one of the reasons why they're willing to comply and follow some of this goofy shit and say no one's illegal on stolen land.

3:06:17Francis Foster:What's interesting is it doesn't happen on the right nearly the same way. Like you can see it now. The right is engaged in a fierce debate internally. And people fucking argue and they hash it out. And then they go have a beer afterwards.

3:06:31Joe Rogan:I think they're doing it just the same way. Just the same? I think it's a human thing. Yeah. I think there's people on the right that do it just the same way. There's people that call people out for not being MAGA enough. Yeah. It's just like right now the whole thing's in turmoil, whereas there's not really the same kind of turmoil on the left where there's internal debate. The turmoil on the left is the left versus the right.

3:06:53Francis Foster:Yeah.

3:06:53Joe Rogan:The turmoil on the right right now, I think there's a lot of people right versus right. And they're trying to find out like – and I think there's a lot of people that don't believe what they're saying either. They're just trying to find a thing that aligns with the biggest audience.

3:07:06Francis Foster:I think that's definitely happening. I also think though internal debate within a big broad church movement is a good thing Because what you're arguing about is like, what is the right direction? Yep. You know? Yeah. And I do think that is more healthy. Yeah. I think working out what it is that, like, whatever, if you're on the right, we believe. I'm not on the right, but as I see that, I do think that's a healthy thing to do because you're arguing about the direction of that movement. Yeah. And I think that's much healthier than what happens on the left where it's just like, well, if you don't agree with this wacky idea that's far, far out there, then you're no longer part of this.

3:07:43Joe Rogan:But I think the good thing about these debates is it exposes that. And anybody who's objective, especially anybody that is, you know, a swing voter or anybody who's in the middle of all this, which is a lot of people, a lot of people. Most people, I think, right? Yeah, most people are kind of in the middle on most political issues. They get to see how crazy some of this shit is, and it makes them less likely to follow.

3:08:06Konstantin Kisin:you know but it's also as well from a neutral perspective and i've mentioned the point about i want a strong left i want a strong left which has got good ideas about how to tackle things which are really important like inequality like the cost of living how do we make it that people can actually have a better standard of life where if a woman wants to stay at home with her kids she can do that which they're not for then have to go out and have to work and put the kids in daycare which then leads to a whole host of problems. How can we have a better world for ordinary people, which is what the left always used to be?

3:08:44Konstantin Kisin:We need a strong left to then challenge the right so that the center becomes a more fertile ground. And if we don't have that, if we have these crazy loons on the left, then what we have is a right which will come to dominate, which I don't think is good for society as a whole. I'm going to be honest with you. No, it's never good if one party, left or right, is completely dominant.

3:09:06Joe Rogan:It's not good.

3:09:07Francis Foster:You need checks, right? And the right has its share of crazies, too, as we've been talking. 100%. Praise Jesus.

3:09:15Joe Rogan:We've got to wrap this up. Gentlemen, I love you guys. Very quickly. Oh, your book. Yeah, I've got a book. It's called Uneducated My Life as a Teacher and Why You Should Never Become One and Never is in Bold. An inspiring story. Francis Foster. I love you guys bye everybody