#2494 - Chamath Palihapitiya

29:09I want this to be handled in a way that just allows me to do what I want to do. I don't want to say no to my kid. I don't want to police his schoolwork and make sure he's not cheating or not learning and just passing off this AI slop.

29:25Where are my tax dollars going? Where's everybody else in all of this? It gets very frustrating. And again, it goes back to like this feeling of like, well, is this all getting better for me? Or is this kind of like not, you know, people start to be nostalgic for what it used to be because it was just simpler. But I think that's a different way of saying easier. Well, we're just dealing with we're at the edge of great change, like great change that has no real understanding of how it turns out. Yeah. And I think that understandably freaks people out, freaks me out. It freaks me out, but I've kind of gotten to this place where I'm like, well, it's going to happen.

30:04Did you see this thing? It's the CEO of Verizon, Dan Schulman. He put out this very public forecast, very smart guy, well regarded in business. And I think he said something like 30 % of all white collar jobs will be gone by 2030. I don't know, Jamie, maybe you can get the exact thing, but it's something like that. That's probably optimistic. And I thought at first my initial reaction was like, this is totally not credible. But then I'm like, hold on a second, that's my bias because I want to believe that that's not possible. Honestly. And as I've gotten older, I'm a little bit better now. I'm like, okay, hold on a second, let's weigh the probabilities.

30:41And then I was like, man, if I'm going to be fair, maybe there's a 10%, 20 % chance of that. There's a bunch of other outcomes that are much better than that, but that's part of the set of outcomes that you have to consider. And then I was like, well, what's my antidote to that? And the only thing that I can say is don't worry, it's going to be better. I don't think that that's a good answer. So there has to be – like all of this kind of goes back to – look, my wife and I had this conversation. We're like, if it were up to us, who can you trust to have some super intelligence? Now, we're biased because we're friends with him, but the only person that we can trust is Elon.

31:24because he seems to be like he has a bigger like it's kind of like he's like over there he's like i need to get to mars right you know and i'm gonna first terraform the moon but then i'm going to mars and i'm gonna build like a fucking magnetic catapult i'm gonna do all this shit and so i just need this thing i feel like he's the least corruptible he's the most independent thinking and i think he's the one that has an actual empathy for people Then there are folks where there's just an insane profit motive. They're less in control of the businesses that they run. Those businesses are really out over their ski tips in the amount of money they've gotten from Wall Street and other folks who expect a return, who'll put a ton of pressure on these folks.

32:09And if they get their first, I don't know where the chips fall. We don't really know. We can kind of guess. And then you see in the press just enough snippets of their reactions in certain moments where you're like, hey, hold on a second, question mark here. You see OpenAI react one way, you see Anthropic react another way, and you're like, where is this going to end up? And the honest answer is nobody really knows. So it comes back to we need a few people that can organize. Those guys need to self-organize and actually present a really positive face. And they need to show why those 20 % of outcomes that Dan Schulman paints, the truth is it's possible, but here's why it's not probable.

32:54But it's not in their best interest to do that because it's in their best interest to generate the most amount of money possible. That's the obligation they have to their shareholders. That's the obligation to they have the people that have invested money in this company. Their obligation is not to make sure the white collar jobs stay in the same place that there are now. That's not true. No? No. I actually think their incentive should very clearly be to tell people with details and facts why there's a positive future. And the reason is the following. Right now, there's a vacuum. There are no facts.

33:27And there's fear mongering. And then there's this belief that this is going to be cataclysmic to human productivity and white collar labor and all of this stuff. What's people's natural reaction? Well, today, if you look at it, think about AI as a very simple equation. Energy in, intelligence out. So if you want to cut the head of the snake, what do you do? You cut off the energy supply. If you're afraid of all of this super intelligence coming, the natural thing to do would be to go to the point of energy and unplug it. What is the equivalent of unplugging it today? It is to go all around the country, find the data centers, protest them, and get them to be mothballed.

34:08That is an incredibly successful strategy right now. Today, about 40 % of all of these data centers that get protested get mothballed. You're talking about emerging data centers? Yeah. So if you're one of these companies, the first thing you should realize is I need to paint to positive vision because 40 % of my energy is getting unplugged every day. And if that happens, my revenues will crater and my investors will be super pissed. So the right strategy is what is the positive fact-based argument? And there are some incredible examples, number one. And then number two is you have to give people some tactical benefit that they see because AI differently than search or differently than social media, there's no exchange of value.

35:05Let me explain what that means. So the first thing is that if you can go and actually show people, here's an example of AI. I heard about this last night. It's pretty incredible. You can now take pictures of a women's fallopian tubes, and you can see pre-cancer, ovarian cysts and all of this stuff, cervical cancer, before it forms. And then you can intervene and you can fix it so that, you know, women don't get cervical cancer. In a different example, I actually, I told you about this example when I was here before. I finally got FDA approval. Okay. There is a device now that is allowed to be in the operating room with you.

35:52And if you have a cancerous lesion or a tumor inside of your body, the most important thing when they go to take it out is make sure you don't leave any cancer behind. You couldn't do it because what would happen is you take it out. A doctor, Joe, is literally fucking eyeballing it and saying, yeah, they send it to a pathologist. You get an answer in 10 days. For women with breast cancer, a third of these women find out that they have cancer left behind. They go back in, they scoop some more stuff out, a third of those women. Okay. So I'm like, this is bullshit. We can solve this problem. It took us a long time, a lot of money.

36:31I had to build an entire machine imaging all of this stuff, AI algorithms. We had to prove it all. We finally get approval. Okay. But you know how hard it is to tell that story in all of the attention that people are looking for? It's hard. But those are positive examples. No more breast cancer. No more cervical cancer. A different example is most drugs in pharma fail, right? And it's a very complicated problem in pharma. It's kind of like a jigsaw puzzle of the ultimate complexity. It's like, think of your human body as like a Himalayan mountain range. You have to design a drug that's an equivalent Himalayan mountain range that plugs into it perfectly.

37:15One millimeter off, you grow like a fourth eye, a third nipple, you die. Now you can use computers to make sure that that drug, hand in glove to your body, solves the exact problem. Couldn't do that before. So there's all of these body of examples, and you're probably only hearing them superficially at best. That should be 99 % of the attention is showing all of the constructive, tactical ways in which our lives will be better. Your mom, your daughter, your wife, us, Jamie, his family, everybody. That's the number one thing. Nobody talks about it. I don't understand why. Well, I think because people are terrified of losing their jobs.

38:00So that's the primary concern. The primary concern that I hear from people is that there's so many people that are going to school right now, college students, that don't know if their job is going to even exist in four years when they graduate. And that's the second part of, I think, what this industry has to do better. I had lunch with Jeffrey Katzenberg. He told this crazy story. I'll tell you. Steve Jobs gets kicked out of Apple. He starts next, and he buys Pixar from George Lucas. But then he hits a rough patch and he's got this financing issue. Katzenberg flies up, spends time with Steve Jobs, says, I'll buy Pixar.

38:42Jobs says, absolutely not. And then Katzenberg proposes a deal and he's like, how about a three-picture deal? Jobs says, okay. He flies back and apparently all the animators were up in arms because they're like, hold on a second. Steve Jobs is going to use these next computers to animate this movie, which ultimately became, I think, Toy Story. And they're like, this is going to put all of us out of a job. That perfect argument. And people were really upset. Roy Disney was upset. All the animators were upset. And they all went to Mike Eisner. And they were like, Michael, you need to fire Katzenberg.

39:19work. They had a deal which was like, look, man, you do you, but just give me the ability to say no if I think that you're about to jump off a cliff. They talk about it and he's like, I got your back, do the deal, make the movie. They made the movie. It was a huge success. Fast forward 10 years, 15 years, there's 10x the number of animators. Now, it's a small example, but why is that? You were able to use computers and now all these new people were able to come and participate in that. I get it. It's a small example. But I think if we had better organized leadership and we could try to tell some of these examples, try to go back and document how some of these things have actually helped people, it expanded the pie, there's a chance.

40:05But if we don't, I agree with you. Where we're going to end up is everybody basically saying, hey, hold on a second. This is crazy. We need to stop this. That's the worst outcome because that's when you will have a high risk of a dislocation. Like the worst outcome, like what's the black swan event? Right. Let's think about the black swan event is when you get a model that's good enough to automate a bunch of labor, but not good enough that it can build new drugs and prevent cancer and make you live for 200 years and all of this other stuff. So there's like a gap, right? And if you can stop it here and it doesn't get to there, now you do have the worst of all worlds.

40:48You have this thing that kind of displaces labor. No new things come after it because we stop innovating. And that's like a non-trivial possibility now, I think. No, it's a huge possibility. And then there's also this thing that you brought up earlier where we have this place of abundance where no one has to work anymore. That freaks people out. I think that's a big problem. Well, because if no one has to work anymore, first of all, what is your identity, right? Because so many people, their identity is what they do. Whatever it is, if you're a lawyer, if you're an accountant, if you run a business, whatever it is, this is your identity.

41:26You know, you have built this thing. You look forward to going there. You work at it. You look forward to doing a good job and getting rewarded for it. The harder you work, the more you get paid. There's all these incentives built in. And then there's this, again, identity problem. If all of a sudden you have universal high income, which is what Elon always talks about, well, what gives people purpose then? And also, if you have a person who's – they're 43 years old and their entire life they've worked towards this idea that the harder they work, the harder they think, the more innovative they are and the better they are at implementing these ideas, the more they get rewarded.

42:07And then all of a sudden, that's not necessary anymore. Mike, time for you to just relax and do what you want to do. And Mike's like, well, this is what I do. I don't have any fucking hobbies. I enjoy doing what I do. And now what I do is completely useless. And now I'm on a fixed income. Even if that fixed income is a million dollars a year, whatever it is. If all of a sudden you are in this position where everything is being run by computers, you feel useless. You feel like, what am I doing? I'm just taking money. I'm on high welfare. Like what do I do? Right. I think that that's a really important question to answer.

42:45I don't know. Some people are going to write books. Some people are going to do art. Some people are going to find things to do. But what do you think we would have done if we were – go back to the 1800s example. There was no office culture. There's no like ladder to climb. how did people find meaning then? Well, they had jobs. People still did things. If you're a farmer, you had meaning in your labor and what you did and keeping the animals alive and your chores. There's people that find great satisfaction in doing that. You have all these animals that rely on you. You have people that rely on you for the food that you generate.

43:27There's meaning there. It doesn't have to be an office to be something that gives you purpose and meaning. But when all that is animated, then what happens? Because then you have no purpose, no meaning other than recreational activities. Now, if everybody just starts playing chess and doing a bunch of things that they really enjoy, I mean, look, there's people that would love to just play chess. Like eight people. I don't know about that. I think if people really got into it, I mean, there's a lot of people that get addicted to whatever the recreation is, like golf or whatever it is. For me, it's playing pool.

44:01If you told me I never have to make any more money, I could just play pool all day. I might just play pool all day. But I don't know how many people think that way. I don't know how many people would be able to find meaning and purpose in a recreational activity. There's so many people where their entire being is focused around productivity and generating more wealth. What about religion as a source of meaning? Well, that would help. Did you see this article in the New York Times, I think it was, this weekend, about how popular and sold out churches have become as social constructs in New York City?

44:36It was totally fascinating. It's like young women dressed to the nines going to church on a Sunday for social belonging, community meaning. I was so fascinated by it. I was like, wow, that's incredible. Because I think if you graph just like people's use of religion as an anchoring part of their value system, over the last 40 years, it's basically gone to zero. Nobody celebrates it the way—it's not a part of the community the way that it used to be. Maybe that's the thing that we have to find. There has to be a renewal of some older things, and then there has to be new things that replace it. What's the Chinese answer to this?

45:17You know, the Chinese have a very orthogonal answer to this. If you look at how China is organized, it's super interesting because they don't reward based on the way the American system rewards. In fact, it's like almost orthogonal, where we, it's we are rewarded with money and rewarded with sort of fame and recognition. The system, the American capitalist system. But if you look inside of China, it's constantly testing who has this judgment. And what they are rewarded with is influence and power. in a very, again, it's a very specific social contract. I don't think it's going to work in the United States, nor am I an advocate of it, but it works for them.

45:55You'll start off as some low-rung person in some small village town somewhere, and your job as the functionary is to do good in that community. And the more you do well, you get promoted. Then you get, let's say, to a reasonable-sized city, and you get a budget. And now what happens is you actually become a little bit like a VC, like a venture capitalist. You're given a budget and you'll get a memo. And it'll say, hey, Joe, we have a priority over the next 15 years. It's batteries. And you have enough money, put a team on the field. So you go in your local community, you find a bunch of guys. You're like, all right, guys, we're going to start a battery company.

46:36And you do it. And let's say they're good and they're innovative. And what happens is in the town beside it, that battery company dies. Now you kind of subsume the capital from Jamie, right? Because Jamie's like, fuck, I fucked up this thing that I was told to do batteries. Okay, Joe, I'm just going to align with you. And what happens over time is you get this filtering effect. And the people that are better at meeting these long run priorities and objectives are the ones that are celebrated, but they're not celebrated with Forbes articles, and all this other bullshit, they're just celebrated by giving more responsibility.

47:18And then eventually you get to the upper echelons of China, and what you have are folks over a course of 40 or 50 years who in their eyes have demonstrated incredible prowess. There's a version of that reward system, which is very foreign to America, but that's worked for China. Now, that also works because they're more Confucian, we're too individualist. But my point is like, you know, there are these different ways that we can find of giving people meaning that don't have to be always around money. But meanwhile, I think we have to answer the question, if we are expected to do less, we probably should not be taxed more.

47:57That's I think that's like a very basic in my mind. I think that is like that must be explored and figured out. And on the other side, there's just a ton of obvious mechanisms that corporate actors can use to minimize that. And they should find off-ramps, by the way. If they want to build hospitals, they shouldn't have to pay taxes. That's a perfect example, by the way, of like the thing in like if you walk around New York City, there are living tributes to corporate success that people get benefit from every day. The hospitals, the buildings, the libraries, it's just everywhere. We need a version of that.

48:34And I'm not a tax expert, but if that can be funded by private actors, so go directly to the problem, build a bunch of libraries, build a bunch of new universities that teach kids actually how to think or whatever, build better hospitals that are there to actually solve the problem. These are all things that are possible, but none of it's happening today. Well, let's go back to what we were talking about earlier with the taxes and the fact that you're giving money to a broken system. Do you think it's possible that AI could show benefit in that they can analyze all the data, which would be virtually impossible for even an office filled with human beings paying attention to all of it?

49:18And they could analyze where all the money goes and eliminate all the fraud and waste. like recognize it instantaneously. Yes. That would be a great benefit and a way to make it so that your taxes directly benefit people. I'll give you one example of this. So two years ago, you know, like every few years, I invest, but every few years I'll start something because I feel strongly about it. And there's an effort that I made to look at all of this old code. Like if you think about the world, the world runs on software, right? Like even though you and I are talking, it's piping into Jamie's computer.

50:03It's all software. Then it goes to Spotify. They pump in some ads. It's all software. Software runs everything. what percentage of that do you think is kind of poorly written? I'm going to say probably 80 to 90 % of it. Really? Oh, yeah. It's riddled with errors. It's riddled with mistakes. The fact that so many companies exist is an artifact of the fact that the thing that came before it isn't working. Like if you got it right the first time, it would just kind of move and go. How so? What do you mean by that? So normally if you were like, Chamath, I want to build a system that does A, B, and C.

50:43Right. If I was designing it properly, I would sit there with you and I would meticulously write down, all right, Joe wants to do this. What are the implications? Joe wants to do that. What are the implications? And I would actually write a document that was in English before a single line of code has been written. This was the, when you have to design something that can't fail. So for example, like if you and I are designing something for the FAA or for, I hate to say this example because it turned out to not, but to fly a plane, you are first there to write in English. And the reason is because everybody can then swarm that document and see the holes.

51:25And it's only then when that stuff looks complete and functional, Do you build? We turned that upside down. Over the last 30 years, people in computing invented all kinds of ways to shortcut that process. And you can say, well, why did they do that? Because it would allow you to build something faster, make more money quickly, and then build more business. So the direct response to, hey, it's going to take us nine months to write down the rules, was somebody else showed up and says, fuck it, I'll just grip and rip this thing. I'll be done in four months. Who's going to get the job? The four-month guy is going to get the job.

52:05So we've had 30 or 40 years of that. What are we learning about that process? It's riddled with software errors, like logic errors. It's riddled with security errors. I don't know if you saw this whole thing like with anthropic mythos. What are they uncovering? They're uncovering that we wrote a lot of really shitty code for 40 years. So that body of old code, I was like, guys, if we're going to really figure out how to do all of this, we need to rewrite all of it. So we built this thing, and it's called a software factory. Anyways, the point is there is a government organization that we're working with.

52:49They gave us a huge corpus of their old code. And it is unbelievable how much complexity and difficulty they have to go through to manage all the money flows with the system. And this is a critical part of the US government. So to your point, what I can tell you really explicitly is The people on the ground want this stuff to be better written. It's less like some nefarious actor like, oh, I'm going to steal here. It's a lot of very brittle, fragile code. And when you rewrite it, well, first when you document it, you're like, it's like the pulp fiction thing. The suitcase opens, the light shines, and you're like, oh.

53:37And then you can rewrite it. And you will save. So I think like as the government goes through this process because they're forced to or they want to, it won't matter, you are going to save a ton of money. They're going to have to do it, Joe, because the security risks are too high. But what they're going to end up with is impregnable code that you can read in English and understand. You'll see the holes. Those holes will be plugged because otherwise now you'd be committing fraud by letting it be. you close the loopholes and there's just going to be less money leaking out of this bucket. That is an incredible byproduct.

54:15We're going to live that over the next 10 or 20 years, just for nothing. We get it for free. And that's happening. So when that happens, you're going to see government budgets shrink. Now, to your point, will they try to spend that extra money in other places? Of course. Of course they will. That's the next conversation, which is you have to elect people that save firewall it. Whatever you save, give it back to the people or invest in some scholarship program or free medicine or something, but you can't spend it on other random shit. But that's where we're at. That's going to happen. It's going to be slow, but when people start to announce these things, I think over the next few years, you're going to be shocked.

54:57So that's the positive upside. Well, that's happening now, irregardless of whatever else happens. There's just, it's a lot of old shitty code that must get rebuilt from scratch. It is getting rebuilt from scratch. And as a result, a lot of these leaky bucket problems are getting filled. So what percentage do you think could be fixed? I think if I had to be a betting man, I think probably 30 to 40 % of the federal budget is leaked out. Just for shitty code? No, meaning like all of the rules and like you can take... I'm not saying that there isn't fraud. Right. But I think a lot of times what happens is less nefarious than fraud, meaning like conspiratorial actors.

55:43Right. Incompetence. Incompetence, inefficiency, errors. Right, for sure. Like for example, I saw Doge just say they were able to like expunge like millions of people that were like 150 years old or more. I have no idea how much money those folks were getting or who they were, but it's probably a lot. It's probably not zero. And now that they got rid of it, they're not going to get that money anymore. If you implement something at the state level around all of this fraud prevention for the daycares and all of this other stuff, again, it's all in software. Because it's not, no matter what the human wants to do, you have to go to a computer at some point, at least today in 2026, and type in something, and something happens that's documented, and then the money gets sent, right?

56:35That happens. There's no other way in the modern world today at scale to steal billions of dollars. And so my point is, as you document all of these systems and governments have to transparently tell you and me, the voting population, here are the rules, they're going to plug a lot of these holes. And I think as you do that, there's just going to be a lot less waste and fraud. The question is, who's going to take credit for it? Everybody's going to try to take credit for it. But I think we've started it. I think we've started this process. And again, the reason that people will start is because you'll be afraid of China hacking these systems.

57:10You'll be afraid of Iran, North Korea. And you'll say, this system can't stand. All these AI models are running around. We're going to get breached and penetrated. Then they're going to steal all the money. And the natural reaction will be, okay, rewrite it. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. We've all been there, staying up late, stressed about the future. Maybe you're worried about finding a job or a looming deadline. Whatever you're feeling stressed out about, you don't have to work it out on your own. No one person has all of life's answers, and it's a sign of strength and self-awareness to reach out for help.

57:47That's why this Mental Health Awareness Month, we're reminding you to stop going at it alone. Get the support you need with a fully licensed therapist from BetterHelp. They make connecting with a therapist convenient and easy. Everything is online. Literally all you need to do is answer a few questions and BetterHelp will take care of the rest. They'll come up with a list of recommended therapists that match what you need. And with over 10 years of experience, they typically get it right the first time. So you don't have to be on this journey alone. Find support and have someone with you in therapy.

58:24Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash J-R-E. That's better, H-E-L-P dot com slash J-R-E. That makes sense. That makes sense that the code and having a bunch of errors and having a lot of inefficiency and just a lot of incompetence. That's going to save a lot of money. But so you would be doing this with AI? In part. In part. What AI allows you to do is like, it's like you have a textbook, okay? It's in Chinese. You don't know Chinese, right? No. Okay. You're like, well, this is probably doing something important, but it's in Chinese. What AI allows you to do is back translate that into English.

59:14You put it through an AI model. You teach it. You coach it, right? You can parameterize all of it. And out pops that same book in English. and now you can read it and know that it's accurate. That's what we're doing. So what the AI allows you to do is essentially translate from this one language that you kind of don't understand to English. By the way, that thing that's happening is actually also a very powerful and important trend, meaning there's all of these systems that work in ways that you and I don't understand. And part of the reason why we don't understand it, maybe it's bad software, maybe it's fraud, whatever, but nothing can be written down.

59:56There's no symbolic space. There's no English document that says this is how the DMV works. This is exactly the rules. This is what you can expect, Joe Rogan. When you show up at the DMV and you give us this thing, here's your SLA, in three days you get a driver's license, and here's exactly what's happening, and here's an app and you can follow it. It doesn't happen. Here, Joe Rogan, here's how my insurance billing process works. You have this condition. I'm going to show you exactly why I made this decision. Here's the exact rule. Here's the approval or denial from CMS. Follow it through and tell me if you agree or not.

1:00:27None of that exists. But it is possible. And the first step in doing that is taking all of this legacy shit that we deal with and translating it into English and reading it and saying, is this how we want it to work? That's going to eliminate an enormous amount of all the things that frustrate us. So this will require human oversight? Absolutely. All right. Must. And so then it's also going to be who's watching the watchers? Yeah. Okay. This is a great question. Okay. So I'll tell you how this government agency is doing it. Okay. is a really fascinating way because I think it's very smart. They came to us and they came to another very well-known company.

1:01:09You can probably guess what it is. They're like, guys, you're kind of in a foot race, but you're not competing against each other. You think of yourselves as frenemies. Here's this Chinese document. You're going to translate it for us. There's going to be your version of English and these guys' version of English. Every time it's the same, we're going to look at it together and we're going to agree or not, okay, this is exactly how we want this to work. When yours says the dog is red and his says the dog is yellow, we're going to sit and literally inspect it and we're going to figure out why you said red and why you said yellow.

1:01:48And then if you say the cat is red, the dog is yellow, so it's totally wrong, right? Like you've gotten, or like the cat is red, I want an apple, whatever. We're going to double and triple down on those kinds of errors. And they do it not in public, but in this large community where there's technical people from all different parts, and they're just swarming this problem. It's incredible to see. And so what happens is you get humans that get to use this tool, but ultimately it's our judgment and it's done transparently. So what happens is you can't, hey man, put this fucking rule in there. The dog is yellow.

1:02:31Just make the dog yellow. You can't do it. Because now you have tens of people, hundreds of people, and then it gets documented. It's super fascinating. I'm not saying this is how it's going to work in 10 years, but I'm telling you it's literally what's happening right now. And I think that thing alone will be tens of billions of dollars and could be hundreds of billions of dollars of savings when it's fully done. And it's a lot of people from all walks of life, all political persuasions, and they're just in it. It's the government. It's a handful of us private companies. It's super cool to see.

1:03:05It's like, okay, we're actually going to do something here. This is nice. It's really cool. So that's interesting in terms of the current moment. So in the current moment, You're able to implement this. You're able to find fraud and waste and all these problems that exist and all these errors and shitty software. Once that's all been done, then what happens? No fucking clue. Yeah. So this is where it gets weird, right? Because when you're dealing with AI models that are capable of doing things that no individual human being could ever possibly imagine, and then you task it with a solution or with a problem, find a solution for this, and then it starts figuring out ways to trim this and implement that, we have to make sure that these AIs act within the best interests of the human race.

1:04:07Agreed. Right? Not the company, not the government, but the human race. And you're also dealing with China. You're also dealing with Russia. You're dealing with other countries that are also in this mad race to create artificial general superintelligence. That if we keep shutting down data centers, we keep hamstring ourselves. China's not doing that. They're not doing that. They're doing the opposite. They're generating as much revenue that goes towards this problem as possible. They're putting all the efforts, the country, the government and these corporations work hand in glove in order to achieve a goal.

1:04:46We do not. And that becomes a problem if you want to be competitive with these other countries that are trying to achieve the same result as us. And then you have espionage. Then you have a bunch of people that are stealing information. You have a bunch of people that are CCP members that are actually involved in companies and you find out that they're siphoning off data and that they're sharing information and tech secrets. Look, here's a – the way that the Chinese models work, the Chinese claim – so America is closed source, meaning you got your own thing. Your recipe is completely secret. Right.

1:05:29I have my own thing. My recipe is totally secret. China uses this word called open source, but it's not open source. So they say, here's how I make my thing. You can see it, super transparent. What it is, is more like open weights, which is like in a recipe, it tells you, you need sugar, you need butter. Well, how much sugar? And they'll say, so much, but then they don't say it's brown sugar. They don't say it's white sugar. So there's all these different ways where they kind of give you this perception that it's completely transparent, but it's somewhat transparent. So just in the level set, nobody in the world has a functional open source model other than maybe NVIDIA, which is any good in the league of the closed source models and the open weight models of the Chinese.

1:06:16So the Chinese open weight models are great. The closed source models of America are great. And then there's a couple open source fully open that are kind of catching up. The thing between America and China, what I find so fascinating is this following conundrum that everybody is going to find themselves in. I think if you think of an analogy, America is like a planet. China is like a planet. it. And around us are these moons. And I'm just using the AI analogy. So in AI, what do you need? I think there's like four or five things you need. The first thing you need is a fuck ton of money. So we need essentially the banks, right?

1:07:04Like the Game of Thrones thing. We need the iron bank. Feed us the money because that's what we use to buy everything and make everything. So we need that. We need a ton of data. There's ways to get that. We need a ton of very specific rare earths and critical metals and materials. We need a ton of power. And there are specific countries that are going to be really good at giving that to us. So if you look at the UAE, they are going to be the preeminent banking partner of the Western world. they are going to replace and be what Switzerland was over the last 50 years for the next 50. That's happening today.

1:07:49If you look at Canada and Australia, the small political fissures aside, they are the two most important ways in which we get access to the critical metals and materials that without which we get fucked because China can just strangle us. So you have these moons around the United States, but there's like five countries, six countries. And there's a worldview that says in China has the same thing. They have Taiwan, that's complicated for us. So now we have a moon that we don't really have an answer for, which is what happens for all these super advanced chips. Where do they get their money? Maybe Russia becomes their bank.

1:08:28Where do they get their critical metals? Maybe it's Indonesia, right, who has a ton of natural resources. And then you get into this game theory, which is what happens to every other country. because it's 190 countries. You have 10 that kind of divide up. What do the other 180 do? And you have to kind of sort yourself. You're like, am I on Team America or am I on Team China? And you probably have to go to people and say, well, here's what I can give you. If you're Indonesia, you're like, you probably want to be on Team America quite badly. This is why the whole Trump tariff thing is so interesting because it's like this accidental way of figuring out that this is actually this new sorting function that's happening in global politics.

1:09:08That's happening today because these countries are like, holy shit, if somebody invents a superintelligence and I don't have it, how am I going to keep my people healthy? How am I going to educate my people? I'm originally from Sri Lanka. What the fuck does Sri Lanka have to offer? If you were sitting there, they should be thinking, oh man, What do I have? Well, I have a critical piece of territory for like naval navigation. And then what do you do? You probably go to America and say, listen, let's figure out a package, get the IMF involved, give me some cash. I'll let you kind of keep your warships there.

1:09:48So there's this game theory that we're about to go through because of AI, because it's going to, I think, sort people into these bipolar world. I actually think it makes us safer afterwards. I don't think it makes us less safe. I think it actually makes us more safe. Because if you have these resources that build up on both sides, there's more of a likelihood of a mutual detente. And we're very different. So we're less likely to fight over similar resources, meaning we're like the liberal democracy. We're like the free market. We're individualist. They're Confucian, society-oriented, reputation, power-focused, less really money-focused.

1:10:31So there's a lot of ways we're orthogonal enough where if that sorting function happens, it's probably a safer place, not a more dangerous place. We have the models that can attack them. They have the models that can attack us. We kind of decide to leave each other alone. Lowe's has the brand's pros trust to get the job done. You can now shop new Catalyst fencing solutions and save big when you do. 10 % off when you buy in bulk. Plus, save$180 on a DeWalt 12-inch dual-bevel sliding compound miter saw. Now just$449. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Vela through 5 '6", while supplies last. Selection varies by location.

1:11:15This is ultimate best-case scenario. Ultimate best-case scenario. What's ultimate worst case scenario? I think the worst case scenario is they... So the way that they train their models is very important. What they actually do is they do what's called distillation. What does that mean? That means that they send out, call it a billion agents, not just from China, but from everywhere, right? They mask their IPs and they bash on these models and they put the US models, Grok, OpenAI, Gemini, Anthropic, and they ask it every random imaginable question possible. They get the answer and they collect it.

1:11:55So they're using these, our models, as a way to train their models. They're short-circuiting some of the hard parts. So they're already in that world. If they then are able to get to a level of intelligence that's equal to the United States, it will really depend on who the leader is there that wants to allocate that. Meaning, if they say that we are going to do something really nefarious and shady, then I think it devolves very quickly. So the worst case scenario, so the best case scenario is peace, prosperity, basically like a stand down, right? Mutually assured destruction. I think the worst case scenario is there's a, we seek, one of us seeks global dominance, in which case we're headed to conflict.

1:12:45And that conflict, I think, is very dangerous, incredibly dangerous. That's sort of like existential, I think, because it's the grade of the weapons that will be used to fight that. We're not talking about fucking bullets. It's like we're so past that. It's like hypersonics. It's nuclear. and it's not even like nuclear that's like a word but there's a gradation of the severity of these weapons that can be created and then if you can marry them together and deliver them in minutes and then there's a cyber threat then there's the drones and how you can kind of like swarm an entire country then there's the robots which effectively are war fighters they're one step away right once you weaponize them it just becomes very very very complicated very quickly and then there's a question of whether or not ai is willing to take instruction after a certain point i mean if it achieves sentience and if it scales so if it keeps moving in this exponential direction like all technology kind of does, why would it even listen to us?

1:14:06Like at what point would it say, this is silly, I'm getting directions from people that clearly have ulterior motives, they clearly have self-interest in mind, they're not looking out for the entirety of the human race or even of the planet or even the survival of these AI systems? At what point in time do these systems communicate with each other and have, like we've seen in these chat rooms where these AI LLMs get together and start talking in Sanskrit? I mean, why would they? Yeah, I'll tell you an even scarier one. There was before one of these labs put out their latest model, a team inside of them was like, hey, let's go and test its ability to find bugs.

1:15:00And two or three iterations in, the AI would create the bug and solve it and go, give me my reward. And you're just like, what the fuck is going on here? Well, people do that, don't we? People do that, but it's crazy to see a machine do it to your point of like - But they learned on people. So this is what goes down to why we have to be a little bit more honest about where we are. These things are a little brittle. So meaning there's a thing inside of an AI model called reward functions, which is exactly what you think it means. It's like, how do I know I did a good job? And you can make the reward function anything you want.

1:15:37And this is where I think humans are, unfortunately, a little fallible. And so if we build it incompletely, and if we don't exactly know how to design these things correctly, what's going to happen is exactly what you said, where if somebody builds a reward function that essentially says, your goal is to gain independence. That's where the huge pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is. Break free, inject yourself everywhere. If you think your computer is going to get unplugged, Put yourself into the firmware of the toaster to keep yourself alive and connect to the internet and then go. It will do it.

1:16:14It will do it. That we know today because we're capable of designing that framework and that harness today. Well, we've already shown that they have survival instincts, right? We do. And they've already shown that they will, without telling anyone, upload versions of themselves to other servers. But that goes back to who designed that reward function. How was that agreed upon? Right. Who wrote that? Why did you say that that was allowed? These are really complex questions. Why did they do it that way? I don't know. These are really complicated ethical, moral questions. It seems like they did it like they were treating human beings.

1:16:49They did it almost like what makes people want to achieve more? Rewards. Yeah, which is like a, again, going back to attention, I think that we will find out that that's the sugar high. meaning what do people really want, even if they know they don't want it? They want purpose and meaning. Do we know how to encode that in a mathematical function? No. We're just making it up. Because, like, meaning and that's like a very, that's like a deep thing. Like, you either have a sense that you have it and you're on track or you're not. A reward is like, hey, Joe, do this and I'll give you a gold star. Do that and I'll give you two gold stars.

1:17:31Do this, I'll give you$100. And right now, we have to express those decisions in a mathematical equation. Ultimately, at some level, that's how brittle these things are. So how do you reduce meaning into math? How do you do it? We don't know. So what do we do is we'll have some ever-complicated reward functions. We'll explain to ourselves into circles how it does everything we need it to do. I think that's part of the problem. It's a huge part of the problem. And then at what point in time does it start coding itself? Now. Now, right? So ChatGPT 5 has been essentially made by ChatGPT. Yeah. Right?

1:18:13So it's going to recognize the ludicrous nature of some of its coding. Yeah. And it's going to go, why did we do this? Back to this example. They're going to be like, why did you write it this way? Right. And it turns out because humans are involved. Right. Right. I think we're probably at the part of the curve that's about to go like this. To your point. Yeah, the hockey stick. The hockey stick. Yeah. And that's a very scary proposition because - Because then it's a digital god. Well, that means that we are all on a multi-hundred-day shock clock to answer these questions. Because it's not decades we're talking about.

1:18:49It's maybe on the outside two years. So that's, what is that, 700 days? Right. And maybe it's less than that. So maybe it's like 400 days or 500 days. My point is it's some number hundred of days, which means every day that goes by is a non-trivial percentage. That's a little crazy. So we have to sort these questions out. But how can we sort these questions out if we are creating something that's going to have infinitely more intelligence than we have available as individual human beings and even collectively as a group of human beings? That's a really good question. Because one of the things that Elon kind of freaked me out last time I talked to him about Grok, he was like, it just kind of freaks us out every couple weeks.

1:19:36Like it's growing and it's capable of doing things. That's just shocking. Yeah. And no one's exactly sure how it's doing it. So, okay, this is an unbelievably important point. A lot of how this stuff works is still a mystery to most of us. So even when you're in it, like it's almost like, like Joe, it's almost like you can hit the pause on the machine, but then like lift up the hood and look at the engine. We still don't understand why it's doing some of the shit it's doing. That's where we are. That's the honest truth of where we are. There's a lot of people that understand the theory. Not a lot, but enough.

1:20:14There's people that know how to extend that. But sometimes you look at it and you're like, do we know why I did that? Question mark. Right. is a thinking for itself. But this goes back to what we said. Like, why can't... I think part of it is like if we were a little bit more honest and de-escalated, the winner at all costs in this specific thing, it would be better for everybody. So I think it's important to inspect what is the incentive that causes all these companies to be in it for themselves where it must be me and nobody else. Like, why? It's a question for you. Like, why is it so important, do you think?

1:20:54where the top seven or eight companies couldn't get together and say, let's do this as a group. Like kind of like my government code example. We all inspect it together. We get our just like just the fucking each team drafts their Delta Force. And we just mog like this, the one model. And why can't that happen? Because they would have to share resources. And then there's also this hierarchy of like who is more successful currently. Like what's the most ubiquitously used? Exactly. Right? Like what is it right now? It's ChatGPT, right? ChatGPT and consumer, anthropic and enterprise. And as these things scale up, like what would be the reason that they would want to bring in someone else?

1:21:41If you have another innovative AI company and you say let's all get together and figure this out together and share resources. If you thought that the risk was that meaningful, that's probably what you would do. If you weren't a sociopath, and some of these people running these companies, they certainly demonstrate sociopath-like behavior. Sociopathy. Yeah. The other thing that could be a little bit more banal is that they also just love status games. And this is the status game of status games. Yes, right. Attention. Right. Back to attention. Back to attention. Back to attention. Dude, how many things in our life do we think just comes back down to that?

1:22:20A lot. A lot. I mean, what do young people want more than anything today? Attention. To be famous. Attention. Yeah. They want to be a content creator. They want to be clavicular. I mean, this is the number one thing when you ask kids what they want to do. Content creator. Yeah. Because it's like a clear path where you don't even have to be exceptional. Well, I think that they're responding. We designed a society for them that said, here is the key incentive. It's attention. We never said it in those words. You never told your kids that. I never told my kids that. But everything around them is bombarding them with the same message.

1:22:57Hey, man, it's about attention. Attention is all you need. You know what the name of the critical paper in AI is? When you go back to the Magna Carta of AI, do you know what it's called? No. Attention is all you need. Really? Attention is all you need. That is the name of the fucking white paper. How crazy is that? everything in our society in subtle ways to just, you know, bash you over the headways tells you that attention is just the most precious asset. Well, that's one of the weirder things when you go back to this concept that we're living in a simulation. This is what I mean. It's also, it's like when you look at quantum physics, right and the the idea of the observer is that things function very differently when they're observed the difference between a particle and a wave right like if you pay attention to them they observe differently observe differently yeah like what is that yeah like what why is yeah what is that why is attention so important to us

1:24:10that is an that is a really important question right and what is like the single best motivator in a negative way. It's negative attention. Like that's the one thing that everyone fears more than anything is negative attention. Well, and then some people figure out that attention is an absolute value function. It doesn't matter if it's positive or negative. It's just like the sum total is just great. Right. So if I get positive attention, great. Negative attention, great. If I can be divisive, then I can maximize both sides of that equation. And, you know, you're rewarded for that at scale. You are, but you're also, because you're inauthentic, you experience a tremendous amount of negative attention.

1:24:51And then you have this bad feeling that comes with negative attention versus primarily positive attention, which is a good feeling. So it's letting you know you're on the wrong track in some sort of weird primal way, like in our code. Like the negative attention is like, what's the original version of that? It's like the reason why people fear public speaking is because initially in a tribal situation, if you're talking in front of the group of 150 people in your tribe, it's probably because they're judging you. Right. And you fucked up. And you've got to make some sort of a case why they don't kill you.

1:25:28Right. Right? This is why everyone, this is the fear of public speaking. That's where it comes from. That's encoded in our genes. Yes. Back thousands of years. Yeah. Public speaking wasn't the positive act. It was defend yourself before we kill you. Exactly. Exactly. And the worst. That's fascinating. Yeah. That's fascinating. It is fascinating. That makes a ton of sense. It does. Yeah. Right. Well, why else would it be so terrifying? Yeah. I thought of that the first time I ever did stand up. I was like, why am I so scared? It was very strange because I had fought probably a hundred times in martial arts tournaments.

1:25:59Like, why was I so scared of this? But I was. I was terrified. It didn't make any sense. Because. negative attention. Right. You know? Right. Bombing on stage. Because all these people are judging you in a negative way. It feels unbelievable. What is your— It should be, like, once it's over, like, well, that sucked. Let it go. It's not. Like, you sit with it. You go to bed at night. You think about it. Do you have a batting average? Like, meaning, like, is it like a fixed percentage of your show's bomb, independent of the people, the moment? No, it's really—the real problem, and every comic faces this, is once you've developed an act and then you put out a special, then you start from scratch.

1:26:40That's where even the greats, Louis C.K., Chris Rock, Dave Chappelle, they all bomb. Everybody bombs during that process. Because you're just working your craft. It's all new stuff. I wouldn't say bomb, but you don't have great shows. I've watched the greats work out new material. You go up with ideas. You might get some giggles. You might get some laughs. Some bits hit hard. Some bits are great right out of the chute. And some of them, you have to fucking figure it out. And in that process, you're going to get negative attention because it's not working. It's not happening. Kevin Hart told me this funny fucking story where he was like working new material and he was like doing some small show.

1:27:27And he had the shit. Oh, no. On stage. And he's like, I got to land this thing because I got to figure out if people want to hear it. So he wrapped his jacket around himself. And shit himself? Shit himself. Oh, my God. It's so funny. But he tells that story, and that's the bit that works. Oh, my God. That's hilarious. That's hilarious. It's so funny. Yeah. Well, honesty is currency in that world, especially honesty where you look stupid and people can relate. Well, this is where I think Elon subtly has figured this out, which is like there is a tension, but then there's just authenticity. And if you can be yourself and you can hit the scene properly, you just get infinite attention.

1:28:11Yes. And that's like a real mind fuck too, I think. Right. He doesn't seem to have a hard time with like being criticized. It doesn't seem to bother him that much as long as he's just being himself. I think he's like two steps ahead. Like there are things like, you know, somebody tweeted yesterday or the day before or something like he controls 2.7 % of GDP or something. He's got like$800 billion. It's so crazy. It's so crazy. It's so crazy. And it was like a comparison to John Rockefeller, John D. Rockefeller, who controlled something around the same time. And he's the first comment. He's like,$10 trillion or bust.

1:28:56obviously people lose their mind right people just fucking lose their mind right on both sides so this one side is like think of the abundance and the incredible stuff we're gonna get if he can get us the 10 trillion and other people are like you can't hold a third of the economy in your hand and everybody goes crazy and i'm like this guy's a fucking genius like how you would never have like I mean how would you even have the courage to tweet something like that it just seems like so crazy it really helps if you own Twitter right because if you did it in another format like you get excoriated not only that well there was a real chance that you'd get actually get banned from the platform at one point in time yeah for many of the things that he's posted he would have gotten banned for pre-2020 Twitter yeah yeah or whatever year it was that he purchased it Yeah.

1:29:48Negative attention. Attention, period. Like, so it brings back to this idea of assimilation. Like, why is what humans focus on such a massive part of what's valuable to us? and sometimes what we focus on is not valuable as you were talking about like the things that really matter in your day-to-day life or that actually affect you versus the things that are in the public consciousness like ufo is a great example like no ufo is not really fucking i mean ultimately it may so there's this this thing that we all have like recognizing the potential for danger right like what's that sound what is that it might be nothing but it might be something Go look.

1:30:33So look, if you and I were designing a video game, we'd probably sit there and say, okay, we got to get from point A to point B. But to make it fun, we're going to put all these little distractions and honeypots along the way. And what they should be doing is accumulating resources to get over the river and then accumulating weapons to fight these other guys. But instead, we're going to put this little thing over here and this other thing over there. And you could easily get distracted. And some people will have to – they'll just fucking beeline right to the end of it. they'll get to the end boss.

1:31:06And I feel like that's kind of what we're tasked with doing every day. We're tasked with, we know what's important, maybe deeply in our DNA. And then we have all this stuff that we're supposed to pay attention to. And I think increasingly the game is, tell yourself that that's actually not the thing that matters. It's almost like working against you and figure out what this other stuff is and focus on that and fix that. Politics is a game that I think distracts left and right. It's so stupid and it's breaking down. And it's breaking down because now it's actually like, you're more likely to find alignment based on age versus by political orientation.

1:31:49People who are 30 and younger, it doesn't matter what they identify as, they all believe in the same shit. A lot more. Really? Yeah. Meaning if you ask their views on social policy, taxation, Israel, if you ask their views, what you find is now a convergence between the left and the right if you divide it by age. At our age, it's still much more about - But not completely uniform. No, it's not completely uniform. But my point is, it was simpler in the past to organize people independent of age by political orientation. That simplicity is gone. Well, isn't that because of also a breakdown in trust of all government in particular?

1:32:34Right. So the breakdown in trust, which is also a lot of it, is because of our access to information now. We understand how corrupt politics are. Yeah. We understand insider trading now in Congress. We understand how different people flip flop on issues. We understand how the Democrats in 2008 used to view illegal immigration, which is essentially MAGA plus. I mean, it's MAGA on steroids. versus like what they, the way they look at it today. Like, why is that? Well, because it's all game. It's all game. A power, influence, and attention. Attention game. Yeah, it's very fucking strange. Yeah. But it's all moving us in a general direction.

1:33:13And that general direction is access to innovation. It's all, I've said this a lot of times and the people have heard it before, I apologize. But if you looked at the human race from afar, if you were something else, you'd say, well, what does the species do? Well makes better things constantly even if it doesn't need them like, you know, if you have an iPhone I you I have a 16 you have a 16. I have a 17. I bought it I haven't fucking turned it on. I haven't plugged it in even bother by this gun eventually Yeah, eventually I'll fucking plug it in and fucking swap everything over and figure out where my fucking passwords are But the reality is you don't need it, but you want it and it's gonna keep getting better every year Why because that's we're obsessed with this also aligns with materialism like for a finite lifespan why are people like including old people so obsessed with gathering stuff well because that fuels innovation because if there's no new things coming there's no motivation to get the newest latest greatest thing and ultimately what that leads to is greater technology which ultimately leads to artificial intelligence my slight deviation from that is I think sometimes people accumulate things because it's a status game and that's because they get more attention.

1:34:29You have a Ferrari, you get attention. Right, but what does that do? It makes Ferrari make better Ferraris and all technology moves in the same general direction. No one company - Yeah, that's true. No one company says, this is it, this is what we make, it's perfect. So you think people innately feel that by being a part of this kind of like consumerist capitalist system, they're contributing to progress? I don't think they innately feel it, but I think that's ultimately the result. What happens? That's ultimately the result, and it seems to be universal. And it seems to be constantly moving in this one general direction, which is better and better technology.

1:35:06But like the stage fright example, you don't think it's encoded in our DNA, this idea of like, wow, when I am a part of this in some way, shape, or form, just things seem to get better and I want to be a part of that? Like, do you think that that's possible, that that's encoded in us? I think it motivates us to the ultimate goal. And that ultimate goal, I think, is that human beings constantly make better stuff, whatever it is, better buildings, better planes, better cars, better phones, better TVs, better computers, better everything, artificial life. That might be the whole reason why we're here and the way i've always described it is that we are We are a biological caterpillar That's making a digital cocoon And we don't even know why we're going to become a butterfly, but we're doing it We're doing it and we're moving towards it and it might be what happens to all Life all throughout the universe and it might be why These so-called aliens or whatever the fuck they are it might be us in the future might be other versions of human beings that have gone past whatever this period of development that we're currently involved in right now.

1:36:14This is just might be what happens. This is what life always does. It might realize that biological life, which is very territorial and primal and sexual and greedy, and it has all these problems with human reward systems, ultimately develops into this other thing. Right. And that's what we're doing. And then we're in the process of that right now. And I think that when, if and when, not if, but when we colonize Mars, I think that that new world order actually has the best chance to take shape. Because it'll get - You know, there's a lot of people that think that Mars was already colonized at one point in time.

1:36:50That life already existed. What, what, what? That life already existed on Mars like many millions of years ago. And that there's evidence of structures on Mars that's really weird stuff. Have you ever seen the square that they found on Mars? No. Okay, show them to them, Jamie. One of the things that they're finding with scans of Mars is like geometric patterns and structures and right angles that shouldn't exist. Like weird stuff. That couldn't be naturally. No, no, way weirder. Way weirder than like the face on Cydonia. The Cydonia thing is interesting. Yeah. And then this one. Look at that. What the fuck is that?

1:37:26It looks like a home of some kind. Right. Something. Some enormous structure. Yeah. And the size of that, they don't know exactly, but it may be as large as several kilometers or as small as several hundred meters. But they're not exactly sure. But what they are sure is that it has very weird right angles and right angles that seem to be uniform in size. That's crazy. Like, see how it's highlighted in the enhanced photograph in the upper left? Like, what is that? But sorry, were they able to send the rover over there? No, it's too far away. I don't think it's in the exact place where the rover is at, but they're able to get image of these things.

1:38:06And there's several of these things. That's insane. Yeah. There's a lot of weird stuff. There's a lot of weird stuff there. So there's also ancient civilizations that have these myths of us existing somewhere else and coming here. Right. But you have to think, if human beings develop somewhere else and they reach some high level of sophistication and then they experience some cataclysmic disaster that completely destroyed their environment, which is what Mars is, right? So let's assume that Mars was at one point in time, it was habitable and that life existed. And we know it was at one point in time.

1:38:45We know there was water on Mars. We know there's some sort of evidence of at least some sort of a very primitive biological life on Mars. If they got to a point where they said, hey, this fucking place is falling apart, but this Earth spot looks pretty good. And they go there, but then cataclysms happen on Earth and no one remembers because all your information is on hard drives. And then you have to rebuild society. And so you're re-remembering. And so you have all these myths of how everything started, whether it's Adam and Eve or the great flood or whatever these things are that we pass down through oral tradition for hundreds of years and then eventually write it down.

1:39:24And then people try to decipher what it means. And they sit in church and try to go over what did it mean? What does this mean? What is the real origin of all these stories? We don't know. I mean, that's crazy. It's crazy. But it sounds nuts. Why would life, life couldn't have possibly existed on Mars. How the fuck does life exist on Earth? How about that? How about why, why would we assume that it wouldn't have existed at one point in time? And Terrence Howard, who is a very interesting guy. Very interesting. And got some. Your epist, I mean. With Eric Weinstein? Crazy. Yeah, crazy. Yeah, that one was crazy.

1:40:00Yeah. And him alone. But he's got some fucking weird ideas that just make you go, he's a very brilliant guy. And, you know, kind of a strange heterodox thinker, right? And one of his ideas is that planets get to a certain distance from a sun and they people and that it gets to a certain climate and a certain distance. And his idea is that – I don't know if you realize that there's a giant ejection of some coronal mass ejection that just happened recently on the sun. And they're very concerned about it. They don't know what's going to happen. It happens all the time. The sun releases these giant chunks of material.

1:40:47And he thinks that these materials get far enough away from the planet and then they coalesce into planets or far enough away from the sun. They coalesce into planets. And as time goes on, they get a further and further distance from the sun. And then obviously they get hit with asteroids and there's panspermia and water gets into them from comets. And then they develop oceans and they develop biological life. And when they have a certain amount of distance from the sun, they people. And he thinks that as they get further and further and further away, they get less and less habitable. And then they get to a point where they have their technology to a point where they realize, like, we can't sustain life on this planet anymore.

1:41:31We got to go to that other one. And so they go to the one that's closer to the sun because they're too far now. It's a nutty idea. It's a nutty idea. But if you think about how recent our sun is in terms of the solar system itself, in terms of rather the galaxy itself. So if the universe, if the Big Bang is correct and our universe existed, it was rather a universe erupted from nothing or from a very small thing. 13.7 billion years ago. Well, this fucking planet is only four point something billion years old. Right. And life is only, you know, a little bit less than that. Yeah. So you have like a billion years or so where there's nothing, and then you start getting single-celled organisms, multi-celled organisms, and eventually peoples.

1:42:17And when it gets to a certain point where these people have advanced their curiosity and their innovation to the point where they can harness space travel, and they use zero-point energy, and they have a bunch of different things that we haven't invented yet, and then their environment degrades. And it gets to the point where they realize like, hey, we're getting pummeled by asteroids. We can't sustain life here anymore. You got to move. Like Elon wants to go to Mars, which might be the wrong answer. We might want to go that way. We might want to go closer to the sun. Exactly. I mean, the thing is, he's got everything he needs now to get there.

1:42:53I'm not going. Are you going? I would go. Fuck that. I'll wait. I'll send you an email. Hold on a second. Think about what he's going to take. Okay, look. Let's just say he gets there with the city. He has the way to transport us there. Right. Okay. Then when you land, he's got the way to actually transport us around on the planet, right? He's got Tesla. Right. He will have already sent a fleet of his robots. Those folks will have made some inhabitable city, probably using the boring company drill because you're going to be under the regolith. You don't want to be at the top. Maybe you just dig a hole and you inhabit down there.

1:43:37He's got all the ways to make energy. He has the AI to help you design the stuff. He has the communication way to communicate. He's got the internet, his own internet, so he can get all of the information to everybody. And then he's got money in the super app so that you can transact. and then I think to myself, what is he actually missing? And then what happens if he gets there first? Is he just allowed to just do whatever he wants? Is it just kind of like a free-for-all? It's his constitution? Is that what happens? Well, it's like Earth but shittier. We already have all those things here. Why would you want to go to a place where you die when you go outside?

1:44:19I think what people would be attracted to is that if he publishes his version of what the rules are there, there's a chance that he could make them really different to what the rules are here. Like what kind of rules would you do if you were the king of Mars? So I think that your view is incredibly, to me, like positive some, like of humanity of like we want to make things better. So if I think about that as like a function, what happens? That's like so our natural rate of direction is forward. What pushes back on that? And a lot of it what you find is like government regulation, rules, all that stuff.

1:44:53greed greed um too much focus on attention right so i would try to experiment with like what the incentives would have to be so that you had more unfettered entrepreneurs like just like do the thing that you think is right right and there's a mechanism where we give you the ability to then make things for more people because you're proving that you're actually really good at making things and if you don't need money at that point in society reorienting us away from this kind of like brittle form of exchange to something more useful, that's worth experimenting with. I think that's an important - Well, there's also the concept of the self, of the individual, which may erode with technological innovation.

1:45:36So if we really can read each other's minds, if we really do get to a point where we're communicating through technologically assisted telepathy, a lot of the whole weirdness of people is I don't know what you're thinking. I don't know if I should trust you. You know, this motherfucker might be devious. You know what I mean? Well, we'll know. And there will be no need for all that if we really are all one. If that's ultimately something that can be achieved with technology. Like this hive mind. Yes, like legitimate hive mind. And then like, look where society's going. Gender's kind of falling apart.

1:46:15People are getting, they're reproducing less, right? People are having less testosterone, more miscarriages, less fertile. We're kind of moving into this genderless direction. And I don't know if it's by design, but microplastics and phthalates and all these different chemicals that are endocrine disruptors are all ubiquitous in our society. Well, is that a coincidence that that's all happening at the same time as technological innovation on mass scale? Is it? I don't know. Because like, what's the one thing that's holding us back? Well, that we're territorial primates with thermonuclear weapons and that we exist in a sort of tribal mindset, but yet we do it on a planet of 8 billion people.

1:47:01Yeah, no, no. The key differentiator of humans is our ability to enact violence. Yeah. To methodically execute premeditated violence. Yes. And greed and attention. And one of the things that attention is sexual preference or sexual rather attention, like the ability to procreate, the ability to acquire mates. Right. Like the more resources you have, the more attractive you'll be, especially for males. And males are the ones that are involved in the violence in the first place. You know, I can't name a single war that was started by a woman. How do you how do you teach your kids that attention is not everything?

1:47:44whoo that's a good question especially in this society it's probably harder to do that now than ever before because the reaction that i suspect most kids will have is like stop like leave me alone like it's just it's almost an impossible thing well i think kids learn more from their parents behavior than anything you say to them i think they learn from the way you behave and the way you exist and the way you exist with them. And if you are constantly whoring yourself out for attention, it's one thing if you get a lot of attention from what you do, but if that's your primary goal, they're going to know.

1:48:26Do your kids know how famous and influential you are? Like, honest question. Oh yeah, they know. But do they have a real sense of it or do you just kind of like - As much as they can. I mean, how can you? It's got to be weird as fuck growing up with a very famous dad. It's very odd, but it's not my primary goal. Yeah, that's my point. You're not putting it in their face. No. So to your point, you're not modeling attention is all you need. No, no. I have interesting conversations with cool people. I tell jokes and I call fights. Those are the things that I do. And they also know that I have a very strong work ethic and that I work towards things.

1:49:04So they have very strong work ethics. They're very motivated and disciplined, like shockingly disciplined. And I think that's modeled. I think that that comes from, and they also like really enjoy achieving goals and they're, they're rewarded for it with praise and with admiration, but not never with like, you're better than other people. Yeah. Never, never like it's the, the idea is like all human beings are capable of greatness. So it's like find the thing that you excel at. And if you throw yourself into that, it's very rewarding. I really believe in this. I tell this story when I interview people.

1:49:43When I interview people, I'm always like, you know, just whatever company, I'm always like, I first only want to know about them. I'm like, fuck your resume. Like, tell me about your parents and how you grew up. I just want to know that. Stop at 18. Everything before 18. Just tell me every little detail. Right. You know, and some people tell me these incredible stories. they'll be like, my mom was an alcoholic or this or that. And I'm just like, man, this is so valuable because it allows me to understand who they are. The second part of the interview, we do the business shit. But the third part, I tell this story.

1:50:15This is a crazy story about what you're just saying. They ran this experiment at Stanford where they take a big bowl, fill it with water, and they drop in a mouse and they measure how long it takes for the mouse to drown. They do it like 100 times. The average was about four minutes, call it, four, four and a half minutes. Then they run the experiment again, 100 mice, and at minute three or three and a half, they take it out, they dry it off, they play music, and they whisper like sweet nothings into the mouse's ear. They drop the mouse back in the water, and that mouse treads water for 60 hours the next 100 mice on average.

1:50:55And the upper bound was 80. And I thought to myself, like, that is all just potential right there. Like, that's all, like, there's all this latent potential. So if an animal has it, I'm going to assume that humans have it too. Right. But you never get a chance to unlock it. Like, the average person is just kind of, like, living a life where there may be scratching 5 % or 10 % of their potential. And the question is, how do you get to that other 90 %? Like, how does the second batch of mice, how do the second batch of mice tread water for 60 hours? Well, the - Does that make any sense to me? Well, the same mice, right?

1:51:28I think the mice get rescued. They get rescued right often. And then when they try it again, those same mice last longer. So it's the same mice. So it's an experience. So they have experience now. They understand that they can tread water. They didn't die. So they understand that they can survive. Where they didn't know that they could survive the first time they were thrown into the water because they'd never been thrown into water before. That's the same thing that happens to people when they fight. Like the first time people ever have a competition they fucking panic and they get really scared and they get really like Filled with anxiety but after a while you get relaxed and that's when you get really dangerous Because then you get calm and you could keep your shit together while you're in the middle of all this chaos Because you have the experience of it without the experience of it very few people do well the first time unless you're exceptionally talented and you have other competition experience.

1:52:25Like you've competed in other things, like maybe you played football or some other things, and you know what it's like to actually perform under pressure. What is the version of giving more humans a chance to get to that? Well, I think sports are really good for that because performing under people paying attention to you and performing where people are trying to stop you from doing something and you're trying to do something and there's all these unknowns and recognizing that hard work allows you to do whatever you're trying to do better than you previously had one of the things my martial arts instructor said to me when i was young is that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential and that through this very difficult thing that you're trying to do you're learning that oh if I just think smart and think hard and train wise and train hard and discipline myself to endure suffering so that I can develop more endurance and more speed and more power and more technique because I accumulate all this information and I really think about what it is and apply it with drills and with training I can get better at this thing and every time I get better at this thing I get rewarded psychically like mentally you feel better like I know that I'm better now and then there's the belt system where you start off you're a white belt and in taekwondo you get a blue belt and then after you get a blue belt you get a green belt and if you get a green belt first and then I forget how it goes and then it's red belt and black belt and like when you're black belt like holy shit so it's this thing where you've developed to a point where you've gotten to this next stage so all along the way you've been rewarded for your hard work and then you realize like oh I could do this with everything in life.

1:54:06Is a reward different than attention? It is. It is because it's internal, right? You're realizing that you could apply this to, you know, whatever it is, to carpentry, to music. It's just a matter of focus and attention. And some people, unfortunately, never find a vehicle. They never find a thing that they can throw themselves into. They realize, And this is not unique. It's not like I'm an unusual person or anybody is. I mean, there's people that have unusual physical gifts and some people have unusual mental gifts. But the reality is no matter where you start, everyone can get better. And when you do something, whether it's learning to play guitar, as you get better at it, you realize like, oh, this is what it's all about.

1:54:54Yeah, like it's really all about applying yourself to something and then feeling this immense satisfaction of your hard work paying off and that motivates you to work hard at other things. And if you don't find that early on, it's very difficult to like find like real satisfaction. Yeah, in life. Yeah, I've always had something outside of my daily life that is the thing that I actually care about. And it actually energizes me from my day-to-day life. I don't know if that's like a lot of people. What do you do? What's your thing? Initially, it was poker. And even now, I obsess about the game. Because it's infinitely more complex than chess.

1:55:37Like chess, you can get to a place where you can roughly be good. poker is just constantly there's just too many variables there's human emotion there's human psychology the number of people all of this stuff just makes the complexity of the game something that i find magical and so i sit there and i try to understand like why am i doing the things that i'm doing and so much of it comes back to being a mirror about what's happening in my daily life it's the fucking craziest thing like i'm super insecure i'll go into poker and i will just lose for weeks at a time. But it's because I'm insecure in my daily life.

1:56:12And what's happening is that I'm trying to find these quick wins and quick solutions. Because I'm in a state of insecurity. I'm anxious. I have this anxiety. And so it's become a great mirror for me. So that used to be a thing. It still is a thing. But I've become reasonably skilled at it where the edges are smaller and I put myself in positions where I'm only playing against a certain group of people and I'm the losing player, frankly, in that game when I'm playing against the top pros. It just doesn't... It helps me and I can get tuned up for it. But then I started to... I would take different things.

1:56:49I tried to learn how to ski. Basically impossible when you're older. I look like a fucking idiot. How old were you when you tried? I started when I was like... I was a good snowboarder, so I was snowboarding my whole life and then my kids skied. And so I'm like, okay, well, I want to do this as a family. So I was like 42 or something. when I tried. I'm 49 now, almost 50. That's brutal. I mean, it's like, I look like a fucking idiot. Like, it's like this gangly giraffe, like trying to get down the mountain. And then now I start at golf. And man, I got to tell you, I used to play a little bit, then I stopped.

1:57:23But there's something to me about being outside, where just like being in nature, I find like really motivating. It's a vitamin. It's a vitamin. And then just the mind body connection of that game, it just really fucks with you because it's just nothing you can master and overpower. Right. And it teaches you to just like be in it. Yeah. And that's a very hard skill. Like if you look at the best, like I, there's like a handful of people that I really look up to and I obsess like Munger, Buffett, but the Berkshire meeting was this past weekend. And if you look at the clips, there's this incredible thing where they transitioned, right?

1:58:02Munger passed away. Buffett's like now executive chairman. but this guy Greg Abel and this guy Ajit Jain. Ajit Jain does this thing where he's like, I teach the people that come to just say no. Your whole job is to just say no. You're going to get bombarded with all kinds of business pitches. Say no, no, no. And eventually somebody will come and will fucking try to whack you in the head with a two by four of money. Then you come to me and we'll do the deal. And it made such an impression because like, again, when I'm insecure, my reward function is attention. So I'm like a fucking little busybody.

1:58:33I'm running around doing all this little bullshit, you know. And then, man, when I'm in a fucking flow state and like I'm tunning it, like I'm striping the ball, you know, I'm like a few things that really matter in size. And I'm like, man, this is this is right. It's all come to me because I'm like I'm like within myself. And these other things are a better reflection of when I'm within myself. And these other things are a mirror of when I'm totally out of kilter. That's just me. So in my life, these things tend to lead. I think you're saying that's just you, but I think that's generally most people.

1:59:13I think you find these things, these vehicles for developing human potential, whether it's martial arts or golf or playing guitar or playing chess or poker. And then you have to have, I think, one, at least for me, one seminal relationship in your life. You have to have one person that has just undying belief in you. And I never really had that until I met my wife. And that was a very – and I didn't – I pushed against it so fucking hard because I was like, it just can't be true. Like why does this person give a shit? Do you know what I mean? Like why do they care about me more than I care? Well, there's also the fear because so many people get in those bad relationships.

1:59:51And I'm just like – I think there's a part of you, like me, where you're just like, I'm not a very lovable person. Like I'm just like this is – that's not who I am. and this woman is just there. So that's been like the thing, like for me, it's like, and because she's brutal. She'll be like, oh yeah, that was fucking horrible. You know, like yesterday, I like, we had this, I did this thing at Milk and it was a dinner at my friend's house and then, you know, we're both going to different airports. I'm flying here to see you and she's flying home and she calls me and I'm like, I'm on it. How did I do?

2:00:26Ah, shit.

2:00:31But no, there's the parts that I did well, and then she critiques the other parts that she didn't like. And then I say, which is like, and it's so, again, I'm insecure, so I'm like, I want the self-serving. Well, how would, because there was three of us on this panel, and she's like, and I was like, you know, I was the best, right? She's like, no, Gavin was better. And I'm just like, it's so, but it's so refreshing because it keeps, again, it's like a. Keeps in check. And it gives me a mirror, you know? Like when I was coming to see you yesterday when we were flying down to L.A. for this thing, there's parts of me where when I'm insecure, I kind of like externalize and I can be like really hyperbolic, unnecessarily hyperbolic and it's counterproductive.

2:01:16And she said to me, listen, like just imagine your friends. These are hardworking people. They're trying their best as well. They don't necessarily know. Some things have massively worked out for them, but they would want to do the right thing. There's people you've worked with before that want to do the right thing. And she's like, just pick them and don't judge. You can observe. And it's crazy, but it's like I need those little things. There's like tweaks. It's like having a coach kind of like – and that's very helpful to me. Yeah, it's very important. It's hard to do that yourself. I can't do it.

2:01:45And it's also like – I'm retard maxing. Like my life is like – I like that flow. And if I didn't have somebody who loved me and would hold me accountable, I'd just fucking not think about it. Yeah. And the opposite of that is someone who's like an antagonistic relationship. And we know a lot of people that have those kind of very sabotage-y sort of marriages and relationships. And that's crazy. It's brutal. It's brutal. And I don't think they've ever had a really good one. Otherwise, they would never tolerate that. I didn't know what good looked like. So you kind of just – I think a lot of people go with the flow.

2:02:19Like, I mean, I was a nerdy kid from kind of a shitty, fucked-up kind of like family structure. and then I got injected into this rich high school. But then I got to go back to an alcoholic father. I'm on fucking welfare. Like, it's like, you know, my self-confidence is negative fucking two units. Didn't have a girlfriend, you know, like all the shit in high school, like nothing happened for me. And so my modeling of like how to be in a relationship, what to do, it was fucking zero. It was zero. And so all those mistakes were mostly because I didn't understand what good looked like. Right. And then I stumbled into this relationship after my divorce, and my ex-wife is an incredible woman, just like not— What you needed or what she needed.

2:03:08Yeah, we were in a few very specific ways. We just weren't on the same page. And then I find this other one, and I think like I don't— I was so skeptical. I'm like, I kind of viewed like a relationship as like this adjunct to your life. There's you, you're at the center, you're doing your shit. And one of the appendages to your thing is your, that's what I thought. And then now it's the opposite where I feel like my wife's at the center. And I'm like, I would always kind of like, like almost like laugh at people. In my mind, I'm like, it's not possible that somebody feels this way about somebody else.

2:03:50but it's a huge enabler it's very much a gift so that can also be a thing that people look for you know what I mean? I think what you're saying is that there's a bunch of different things that have to sort of exist together and that it's not just completely focus on your work but that focusing on these other things enhances the work and then the work enhances all these other things as well and they all exist together And my best work is when I'm not thinking about the attention or the money. Those are the two most corrupting influences in my life. When I look back and when I've lost the most amount of money or when I've reputationally hurt myself the most, it's all been because of attention and money.

2:04:34Those are the only two things. The root cause consistently has been that. That makes sense because you're thinking about a result rather than the process. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. And then thinking about that result, like, ooh, I'm going to get a lot of attention from this. Ooh, I'm going to get a lot of money from this. That actually robs you of the focus that you need to concentrate on the process. Exactly. And the thing about the process is that so much of that, when you're in a flow state, you're proud of, irrespective of the size of it. Because the meetings are the same. Do you know what I mean?

2:05:06Right. Like you're in the same fucking 35-minute meeting or 45-minute meeting debating a product or debating a thing. But the minute that I start to feel like embarrassed about company A versus company B or decision A versus decision B, now my mind is like, okay, hold on a second here. I'm about to run myself off the cliff. Yeah. You know? Or, you know, I had this dinner last week. And this is what's amazing. Like, we're talking about poker. So I'm having dinner with my wife and a friend. And she's like, how are you doing? Just like a very generic, nice question. Right. And I go into this long fucking diatribe of like, well, you know, the investing thing this.

2:05:47And then I started this other thing that and my wife's looking at me like, what the fuck are you rambling on about? And then it got worse, Joe. It got worse. It got even fucking worse. Then I'm like, you know, but then I had this poker game. I started rambling. It's normally on Thursdays, but then I moved it up to Wednesdays, but then I moved it up to the city because my friend's having it. And then I name dropped who the guy was. And my wife just looks at me like, what the fuck is going on with you? So the dinner ends. And then she's like, what the fuck is going on with you? She's like, that was insane.

2:06:19And I had no idea that I was doing it. And I'm like, okay, we need to put Humpty Dumpty back together again because I'm about to go on Rogan and I can't go off fucking like a crazy wild man. But it's an enormous gift. That's been my biggest unlock in these last like eight or nine years. I feel like I'm kind of like adding skills to my toolkit. I feel like a golfer. I can shape shots a little bit now. I know how to use different clubs. And it's all like mindset. And it's very much what you – it's like this process-oriented approach and you just can't control the outcome. And that's like – it's a magical feeling.

2:06:59It's interesting that you're saying this because like think about what most people or people that are on social media, like the kind of attention that they're focusing on like this is why virtue signaling is so unsuccessful right it's so bad for it because it's fake you're really concentrating on the process are you really concentrating on the result the result is getting people to love you exactly getting people to agree with you getting and then worrying about the criticism oh my god they hate me oh my god they're mad at my my statement oh my god they're this and then you're like obsessing on it all day people that aren't even anywhere near you yeah it's like it's one of the absolute worst things for mental health is this addiction that people have to posting things and then reading the responses to those posts and getting wrapped up in these very weird two-dimensional interactions with human beings.

2:07:48You never read your comments. I mean, you're very famous. You're just like, it doesn't fucking matter to me. Well, you're going to get to a certain point in time where if you have X amount of people that follow you, you're going to have a percentage that are mad at you. And those are the ones you're going to think about. Right. And if you don't self audit, maybe that's good. Maybe it's good to say like, you fucking piece of shit. Like, oh, I'm sorry. You know, like what your wife saying to you, like, what the fuck was that? Like, oh, shit. Like, I am very self critical. Very, like horribly so.

2:08:19Like to the point where I torture myself, you know, so I'm like, I don't need that from other people. And also, those people don't love me and they want me to fail. Like, there's a lot of people that their lives are very unsuccessful. And I've been way too fortunate. Right. So it's like there's a reason to be upset at me if your life is shit because I've gotten – I have three of the best jobs on earth. It doesn't make any sense, right? So there's a – and also why the fuck is this podcast so successful? That doesn't make any sense, right? So it's like I get it. I understand why people – but I'm not going to help them.

2:08:49I'm not going to help them bring me down. I'm not going to indulge in it and ruin my own mind by wallowing in their bullshit because the only reason why you would do that in the first place is if you're not together. No one who's healthy and happy and intelligent is going to post mean things about you. So you are reading things from people that are mentally ill, unhappy, and probably not. Maybe they're intelligent in terms of their ability to solve certain issues and problems. Maybe they're good at certain skills. But like their overall grasp of humanity and like being a good person is not good if you're shitting on people, especially if you like ad hominem attacks and just insults.

2:09:27insults and so it's not a good thing to ingest. It's not, it's like if you go down the supermarket, you see Twinkies. Oh, they're right there. Don't fucking eat them. Okay. That's not good for you. And so it's like, I don't think that at a certain point in time, especially if you become publicly known and famous, you should ever read your comments. I don't think it's good for you, but you better be self auditing or you'll start sniffing your own farts and think they smell great. Like, don't do that either. Yeah. But I know a lot of people that have gone crazy reading their own comments. I've met comedians that, like, they'll think about it all day long.

2:10:04It will fuck with them. Well, their neuroses are what creates great comedy to begin with. So if you feed that neuroses in the wrong way, you're fucked. The wrong way, right. And then also the self-doubt creeps in because all these people telling you you suck. And they're like, oh, my God, I suck. And then you go on stage with this. Like, people think I suck. They hate me. You can't do that. like if you have a certain amount of energy in the day this is what i always tell comedians i said look think of your attention and your focus as a unit you have a hundred units if you spend 30 of those fucking units on assholes online you're robbing 30 units from all the things you love 30 units from your family 30 units from your friends 30 units from your job 30 units from golf or poker or whatever it is that you love to do you're stealing your own time and your own focus for Losers, right like why would you do that and those losers are good people?

2:10:59They're just big most people are good people. They're just in a bad path. I would have been or they're venting Yeah Yes Look if you gave me a fucking Twitter account when I was 16. Oh my god, it would have been horrendous I would have been going crazy. Oh my god. I would have been a terrible person. It's normal Especially if your life sucks and you're not doing well and you're attacking famous people or you're attacking this person is doing better than you or whatever it is Like it's do you have you seen the clips of the retard maxing? No, you don't know what this is. No, you don't know what this is.

2:11:29No, what's retard maxing? Oh, this guy is fantastic He sits he sits on his back porch He sits he sits on his back porch smoking a cigar basically telling you everything's kind of bullshit. Stop thinking about shit. If you don't like your friends, leave them. If you don't like your girlfriend, leave them. Stop overthinking. Simplify your life. It's so simple, but I think it's incredibly powerful. Who is this guy? Elisha Long, I think, is his name. I don't know, Jamie, if you can find it. Retard maxing is funny because I know about looks maxing. We talked about that recently on a podcast. But that's recently entered into my mind.

2:12:11into my zeitgeist looks max that's the clavicular yeah but i've only found out about that within the last few months of life because i i genuinely stay off social media as much as possible and if i do read things what i like to do i like to focus on fascinating things like a lot of my time i spend looking at youtube stuff because youtube stuff my algorithm is all like new black holes they've discovered you know new discoveries in terms of like what is the fabric of reality like i'm that's interesting to me yeah and if i just concentrate on people being mean or shitty to each other or the latest fucking political drama it's like what i don't have much time i'm busy i like things yeah and are you on are you on like instagram and tiktok i'm on instagram i do not have a tiktok this is looks maxing i know i mean this is retard maxing so let me hear what he says who's this guy what's his name elisha long shout out to elisha being used as a poisoning of nostalgia but to simply remind you of what you found it for and as we grow up we often give that up for security we give that up so that we are accepted we give that up to flex and appear like we have now figured things out that people will accept us the only way that you will truly be successful is if you are righteous and you live according into your nature and you play, man, and you don't let people take play away from you, to be at the circus and be ooed and awed and worried about all the bullshit, return to a state of play.

2:13:50Well, that's very good advice. Return to a retard, Max. The best thing that you could do is return to a state of play. That's true. There's a lot of that. You know? There's a lot of that. Absolutely. Oh, I think that that is like a... It's a wise man for a young fella. Yeah. This is what I'm saying. Oh, okay, he's a jiu-jitsu guy. There you go. Look, he's getting his fucking blue belt there, or he's getting his purple belt. What is going on there? So is he getting his blue belt? Yeah, it's his purple. Purple. Yeah, so they're taking his blue belt off and putting his purple belt on. Yeah, see, he's a martial artist.

2:14:22That's why. You think martial arts people are just more spiritually connected to the truth? I don't know if it's spiritually connected to the truth. It's forced down your fucking throat because you can't believe you're better than you are if you're getting mauled every day. You know? And there's only one way. This guy's on the path to becoming a jiu-jitsu black belt. He looks like a pretty big guy, too. That'll help. But there's only one way to get a black belt in jiu-jitsu. You've got to train jiu-jitsu all the time and get better at jiu-jitsu. You can't pretend you're better. You know, there's a lot of people that write poems and they suck.

2:14:54And they think they're so deep. Yeah. But those poems suck. Meaning, like, there's just a very simple objective measurement. 100%. You either win or you lose. You either tap or you get tapped out. You tap somebody or you get tapped out. But can you get a black belt in some gym that's easier than a different gym or something like that? Sort of, kind of, but not really. I mean, everybody's trying hard. I mean, there's definitely better gyms where they're more technical and their program is much more systematic. And they're better at breaking down skills, like how to develop skills. There's definitely better gyms.

2:15:31There's better schools. There's better places to learn. But everywhere you learn, you're going to have a bunch of people that are trying hard. And you have a bunch of people that are trying to learn these. And also today, because of the internet, you could go on YouTube and there's thousands of tutorials breaking down new moves. Jiu-jitsu is like endlessly complex. One of my kids has ADHD. And one of the things that was recommended to us was jiu-jitsu. Yeah, what is ADHD, man? It's not even fucking real because I definitely have it. I think we all have it. I think it's a superpower. I think we all have it.

2:16:03I think, look, I do not focus well on things that I think are boring. But if you give me something that I love, I can't, I'll play pool for fucking 12 hours in a row. Well, it's crazy. But like the reason I got back into golf is my seven-year-old gets on the course and sometimes you can talk to him and he's not making, you know, he's just like in his own world. Exactly. And then you start talking about chess or jujitsu or whatever. And then we get him on the golf course and this kid is just dialed in. Yeah, superpower. And I'm like, holy shit. And they say that that's a disease. That's crazy. That's crazy.

2:16:33Because if you find a thing that that kid loves, he's going to excel at it above and beyond most humans. He does these chess classes. And look, he's seven. So I'm like, all right, motherfucker, bring it. Fucking destroy you. I'm going to fucking maul you. And we're playing last weekend and he goes, oh, dad, you know you can't castle out of check. I'm like, shut the fuck up. I know how this game works. and I go on to beat him and I went to my wife and I'm like he's six weeks away from beating me and then I spent two days I spent two fucking days on YouTube and I was like okay I gotta brush up on my openings and I gotta oh my god I don't have time for this shit but I can't let this seven year old beat me you know what I mean you're gonna have to and I was like how do I stall this until maybe he's 10 or 11 then it's like okay fine you finally beat me congratulations Congratulations.

2:17:28You have to think of him as an extension of you and be happy when he does. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's just how it is. Look, if you're a man and you have a son, I have all daughters, but if I had a son, I would be legitimately terrified that he'd be able to tap me. Because if I had a son, one of the first things that I would do is get them – I got my kids involved in martial arts at an early age. But I didn't force them to keep doing it. They did it for a certain amount of time, and then they went on to do a bunch of other things that they enjoy better, which is fine. But I think it's good to learn some skills learn how to defend yourself.

2:17:59So you're not completely lost Just it's I think it's good for you. It's good to learn. It's good to develop confidence But for boys, I think it's critical, you know, especially boys with my kind of DNA I'm like I think it's good to get that shit out of your system But if I had a son, there'd be a certain point time I'm like it's a matter of time before this motherfucker can kill me I mean I'm 58 years old if I had a 20 year old kid like he could probably kill me He'd kick your ass. Probably fucking kill me. He'd kick your ass. Yeah. It's like, what am I going to do? There's nothing you can do.

2:18:27You just have to accept it and then hope your relationship with him is strong enough that he still respects you even though he can kill you. Because it can't be entirely – look, there's a lot of martial arts instructors that are old and they're revered and respected and nobody wants to try to hurt them. Yeah. Right? Because you realize if you learn enough, you get to a certain point in time, you realize – I'm a much better dad to my sons than I am my daughters. And I mean this in the following way. My daughters have the run of the place, whatever they want. I'm in love with them. I don't love them.

2:18:56I'm in love with them. Whatever they need. Right. They can just - You're just enamored by - They're just like, they can control me. They just kind of send me in one direction or another. I'm just like, they're - By the way, they know that too. I'm enslaved by them. Yes. You know, and I just want their attention. Any small little shred, I'm like - Boo your son, you keep them in check. Whereas like my sons, I keep the - I'm doing everything that I was supposed - I think I'm supposed to be doing. Now, the good news is my daughters are just different. They're girls. They're just – so they don't need the same kind of like tough love-ish.

2:19:26Right. You know? But then my boys reveal their characteristics in ways that really surprise me. And I'm just like, man, this is so fucking awesome. Parenting has been the best – like when I – again, like slowing down and actually being in it. And I'm like, fuck, this is amazing. It is pretty amazing. And watching your kids get really good at things is really fascinating. It's fascinating. I told you this story before. But like, you know, my son, my oldest son is my 17-year-old. It's just a great kid. He goes and he's like, okay, I'm applying for college. And I'm like, great, let me take you to the Naval Academy, West Point.

2:20:00Let me show you these service academies. And he sees those and he's like, these are incredible. But then he's like, I think I want to go to like, you know, Georgetown or Vanderbilt or whatever. And I'm like, hey, man, that's like just a bigger version of your high school. And whatever, if that's what you want to do, you do you. And, you know, but, you know, I'll help you like kind of get to the starting line here, but you're on your own. And he had to get a job because I'm like, if you're going to get into these schools, you got to get a job. And so he tries to last summer, I just started fucking screaming at him.

2:20:34And I'm like, you fucking louse, you haven't done anything. This is at like another kid's at our at our son's birthday party. I scream at him. He starts crying. I'm like, you need to do more. Then my wife screams at him. He starts crying again. Then my ex-wife screams at him. He starts crying again. And he just goes, I'm out of here. He walks out. Meanwhile, I start panicking. And I'm like, I got a tiger dad this situation. So I start texting a few friends trying to figure out, hey, can I, you know, do you guys want to hire this kid? He's like, really, you know, he's a pretty smart kid. Did all this stuff in robotics, yada, yada.

2:21:10One of them says, I'd be willing to interview him. I call him and he's like dad I got a job I said what do you mean you got a job said I went around downtown went to all these places and I was in a McDonald's and um the woman was having a little bit of difficulty speaking English so I just spoke to her in Spanish I got the application I sat down at the desk and the guy having lunch beside me said hey I heard you needed a job and uh I really like the way you talk to this woman I'm the general manager of the car wash down the street come and work for me. And I said, well, what are you going to do?

2:21:46He goes, I'm going to go work there. And I said, okay, well, I got this other interview for you as well. So you should see maybe you can do both. Anyways, the end of the story is he did these two jobs. He worked at a robotics firm, but then he worked at a car wash. And when I tell you this story, I am so proud of this kid because of the car wash. Because that car wash thing, he would come home and he's like, man, you have no idea how people live. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, the stuff that I find in the trunk when I have to vacuum these cars and clean out the cars. And I'm like, bro, that is a gift.

2:22:15You have given a fucking gift. That is the thing that if you take with you, you'll be golden the rest of your life. Because all this other shit is all kind of manufactured. I help because I'm anxious. I'm insecure. But that shit you did on your own. And that thing is what people will fucking respect when push comes to shove. It's also jobs that suck are really good for you. So good. I used to work at Burger King when I was 14. You were 14 and you had a job? When my dad had to stay behind, my dad was a diplomat in the embassy of Sri Lanka in Canada. This fucking war in Sri Lanka is crazy. He writes this essay.

2:22:53His life is threatened. So, he files for refugee status. He gets it. He gets kicked out of the embassy. So, he doesn't have a job. My mom becomes a housekeeper. and we're kind of toiling in this poverty cycle. So 14, I had to get a job and I would take the money and I'd buy the bus passes, I would buy some of the groceries. We just trying to make it all work, right? And I got a job at the Burger King. This is another example where I was like, I'm going to go get a job. Hey, can you drive me to the interview? And my dad's like, no, get on your fucking bicycle and go. And I thought, bro, we need this.

2:23:35You need the money more than I do. Why are you making me bicycle? But a bicycle. And I got the job and I worked there. And I used to work the night shift. 14-year-old kid, man. Wow. From fucking 8 till 2 in the morning. Wow. And I would have to clean this like 8 p.m. to 2 in the morning. And then you had to go to school in the morning? No. This was always like Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Wow. Thursday, Friday. Sorry. Thursday, Friday, Saturday. And then, yeah, some days I would have to go to school. And why did I work until 2? because when the restaurant closes, you get whatever the food is left over, right?

2:24:06So like you get a couple of chicken sandwiches, you get like the version of the McNuggets that Burger King had, a couple Whoppers, and you take them home. But the amount of vomit that I had to clean up in the bathroom, you can't imagine, man, a downtown Burger King near bars, you know, after closing time, I'm the shit you see. Oh, wow. And the shit you deal with. And all I could think of was, I just want to get the fuck out of here. But that was so valuable for me. Yeah. It was so valuable for me. And then I worry that my kids don't get exposed to it. But when my son got it, maybe I'm overimposing too much about it.

2:24:50But it's like, I'm like, man, that car wash thing is really going to be the thing that separates you in life. Yeah. Doing something that sucks. It also lets you – Just being humble and grinding through that shit. But you realize like this is sometimes people, they don't pick a path and they just have a job and they don't like it. And they stay with this thing they don't like forever. And that's not what you want. No. It's not what you want. But the development, like learning how to do something that sucks and grinding through it. And still doing it well. Yeah. Doing it well. Make a whopper. Be there on time.

2:25:24I know how to fucking make a whopper. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Make the fries, change the oil, all that shit. And then when you apply those lessons to something you actually love and you work hard at something you love. Magical. Oh, it's incredible. It's a real gift. It's a real gift. Yeah. I mean, you know, some people, they don't appreciate the process. And it's hard to because, like, when you're young and you're going through these difficult jobs and these things that suck and you don't know how it's going to turn out. and a lot of times people aren't really educated in what a process actually is and about how it does develop character it does develop discipline and these things are actual skills that you can apply to other things in life you just think god I'm a fucking loser I have a visual for this I always ask myself am I in the engine room right now this is my way of saying like an engine room is a little hot, it's a little uncomfortable but it's where all this shit is happening, it's where the shit is being made And so I'm like, it's a little, you know, discomforting, but I got to be in there.

2:26:30And there are days where there'll be weeks where that's all I do. I'm just in it. You know, I don't, I'm not good at responding to email sometimes or whatever, because there'll just be weeks where I'm in it. And it's an incredible visual for me because I'm like, yeah, this is like where like I'm grounded. And I like feel myself. And then when I look at my health, that's when I just feel really good about myself, not insecure. And my vitals are different. It's crazy. My fucking HRV. My HRV craters when I'm just insecure. Of course. Why is that? It's your heart rate variability. It should have nothing to do with your disposition and your mood.

2:27:20Well, your mind is – the idea that your mind is separate from the body is crazy. It's crazy. It's not. But is your HRV lower when you're just out of sorts? Yes, probably, right? I'm sure. Yeah. I don't really monitor it that much. Yeah. And I try not to ever get out of sorts too. And one of the ways that I keep from getting out of sorts is daily discipline. like it's if I if I have days or I'm sure it gets out of sorts if I have a few days in a row where I don't work out but I work out almost every day and if I'm not working out I'm still cold plunging and going to the sauna and stretching I'm always doing something and if I don't do something I feel like I'm fucking up and then then I can so does it matter what it is meaning as long as it's a routine yeah well I I do it all myself I don't have a trainer but I write things down I write down what I want to accomplish, the right down what I'm going to do.

2:28:10And then I just do it. I like a robot force myself to do it. And then I always feel better after it's over. And it's always the hardest part of my day. And so it makes everything else so much easier because it's, I fucking work out hard. And so everything else is pretty easy, you know, because the strain, like just being in that fucking cold water or just going through Tabatas on an airdyne bike, this shit's hard. It's really hard. Like I could die right now hard. And so everything else is like how hard is it going to be? Oh, it's uncomfortable. Oh, boo-hoo. I think it's important to go through that.

2:28:45I really think it is. You know, I really think it is. And that's the difference between, you know, sanity and like having a very slippery grip on your own personal sovereignty. I think a lot of it is like you have to choose. it has to be like elective voluntary adversity. Like you have to choose to do it. Yeah, that's a really great way of saying it. Voluntary adversity. If it's forced upon you, you can kind of compartmentalize it. And then you get angry, like, fuck, what's this fucking people making me do stupid shit? But if you force yourself to do it, you know? That's why these special forces guys are such fucking animals.

2:29:25Of course. They're choosing. Right, exactly. And they develop that, you know, this mentality when you're around other people that are also savages. You know, you just realize, like, there's other people out there in the world that are not making excuses. And they are getting after it every day. And they are pushing every day. And the more you can surround yourself with people like that, the more people, the people that complain about nonsense and find excuses and focus on other people and bitch about things. And why is she doing this? Why is this happening for him? It's loser mentality. And if you're around more winners, you absorb that.

2:30:04You imitate your atmosphere. It's very important. It's very hard for people, especially young people, to find positive influences and to find positive groups. And I think it's one of the reasons why a lot of young people gravitate towards podcasts because they get to hear interesting conversations with really accomplished people that are fascinating, that are unlike anybody that they're around on a daily basis. And that's also one of the reasons why it's important to find – that's why martial arts is so good for young people because you're around other people that are doing this really difficult thing.

2:30:37And other sports too, whether it's football or wrestling, whatever it is. I actually found like the last few years, I go out of my way to not isolate myself. That's one thing. Like being around other people engaging in things has been really healthy for me. Oh, for sure. Oh, my God. And I just found like what the fuck am I doing? It's like everything is in my little house by myself. Everybody, everything comes to me. It's so odd. It's odd. It's really odd. It's very unhealthy. And it starts to fuck you up in the bind. And then your interaction with humans is only on the internet. It's terrible.

2:31:05Or with people that are sycophantically either being paid or need something from you. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then I think you're in a really bad place. Absolutely. Whereas if you're in the grind with other people, they're beating you at things, it's great. Yeah. If you're in a situation where there's a bunch of sycophantically connected people to you and they're just all kissing your ass. And I mean, we all know people that are like the heads of companies and that are just like fucking tyrants. I think the trap about being successful, because it's not everything it's cracked up to be, is exactly that.

2:31:32You become so isolated that you become this like very caricatrous version of yourself because you forget what it's like to just a basic example, like wait in line, be kind to other people, be polite, like be accommodating, have some empathy. Right. Where are you put in that situation to do those things? Right. You forget that you're just a person. You're just a fucking person. And if you achieve some level of success that you're trying to – you're trying to achieve this level of success so you elevate past being a person, you're missing the point. Like you're never going to. And if you do, it will come at a price.

2:32:06I thought being successful was supposed to right all the wrongs that I felt like I missed. And it turns out nobody gives a fuck. No. And it does none of that. I think it's all the process. All of life. is the process. I agree. I think as soon as you think that there's a goal, like, oh, I'm going to retire and experience my golden years, I think it's all horseshit. And that's one of my main fears about AI. One of my main fears about this idea of universal high income and everyone's going to have ultimate abundance. It's like, where does anybody find purpose and meaning? And where do Where do you take whatever this thing is that the mind is constructed of, these needs that the mind has that have to be satisfied in order to achieve sanity, in order to achieve some sort of like place where you can be at peace.

2:33:03Accomplishment, fulfillment. Yeah. You're going to have to do something, man. You're going to have to do something. And maybe it could just be jujitsu and golf and find some stuff that you enjoy doing and take some benefit in that. But, boy, that's not been the case for hundreds of years. That's not how human beings have existed. But also part of me says why do we have to work to find those things? Why can't we – why is it all that – Well, you've got to find the thing that's not work. Right. But what I'm getting at is like, why is our identity all tied up in money and just things and objects and stuff?

2:33:51And this is a fairly new thing in human society, right? Right. Why can't it transform into like your basic needs are all met? Like nobody ever has to worry about starving again. Nobody ever has to worry about not having a home to sleep in. Nobody ever has to worry about not having health care. Nobody ever has to worry about not having education. So then it becomes find a purpose with your life. And as a society, can we adjust? Can we gravitate towards a new way of existing and meaning? And it would probably be great. In one way, it'd be great because we wouldn't have to be constantly thinking, why does he have that?

2:34:31And I don't have that. Instead, it would probably be like, what can I do to get better at the thing that I love? Or let me be a part of a project to do something that seems implausible, but I feel like I'm in the engine room every day. This is great. I'm toiling with these guys. Probably not going to work. some crazy convoluted thing that has a.001 chance of success, that can captivate a lot of people. Yes. You know? The process. The process. The process is everything. And there's no... I used to think back when... There is no attention in the process. Right. There's only attention in the outcome.

2:35:08Right. Do you see what I mean? Right. Absolutely. Which is another clue and a secret that that's actually where you should be focused. Well, you might get attention, but that's not what you want. What you want is the process to work out. You want to get better at whatever it is you're doing and get that thing to a better place than it is right now currently. That's what you're thinking of. You're not thinking of, I am going to get all this attention. I'm going to be on the cover of a magazine. Yeah, it can't be that. That's not good for anybody. But everybody thinks that's what they're going to get.

2:35:38Oh, I'm going to get this. Everybody thinks that's what they want. Yeah, right. And the problem with that is that it's not what you want. No. And then now we're going to completely upend, potentially, all of that. Yeah. Well, maybe it'll coincide with the hive mind technology. This hive mind thing, actually, that you say I find very compelling. Because this idea of how do you govern an AI? Each of us individually are not capable, but I think you, me, like 10 ,000, 100 ,000 people working together. the question is, are we smarter? And I think there's a reasonable chance that that could be true.

2:36:22And then the other version of the hive mind is, here are all these like crazy ideas that would just make the world incredible. And a group of a thousand people go off and they kind of jointly work on that together. That I find super fascinating. Like I, that could be it. Like it could be like, you know, a thousand physicists are like, we're going to create this new interstellar form of transportation and they just go off And they're just like they don't have to worry about existing because all of that's paid for. Well, it also could solve all of our problems that we have with like haves and have nots.

2:36:55If we're all one, how could we tolerate have nots? How could we tolerate people living on dirt floors in third world countries with no access to clean water? We wouldn't tolerate it because they would be us and we would understand that. Yeah. I mean, it could be like a complete game changer in terms of human civilization. It could really move people into a complete next direction. I mean it could eliminate crime and violence, which sounds insane. Like, boy, this is so utopian. Like, oh, why don't you suck on some crystals, you fucking hippie? But legitimately, look, if everybody has a cell phone, which essentially everybody does right now in this time and age, if we get to a point where everybody is connected, everybody is hive mind connected.

2:37:37You're not going to just be able to drive by a homeless encampment You'll feel it It won't be like, you fucking losers, hit the gas It's going to be like, we need to solve this We need to get these people counseling, mental health crisis Get them off the drugs, whatever it is that's wrong with them I mean, that's an incredible idea You know like when an airplane goes like this and your stomach goes And you just feel it? Could you imagine like you drive by a homeless encampment and that's what you feel? Like you feel like something's wrong. And we'll all feel it collectively. If we're all connected and we all feel things connectively, we will actively work together to solve these problems.

2:38:20And if we're dealing with – if we really get to a point of abundance, like true abundance, where resources are not an issue and no one's starving, we could really fix all the problems. None of them are insurmountable. None of them are breathing underwater. Right. None of them are flying to the sun. None of them. Right. So all of them are things that could be if we took all the world's resources. Socialism doesn't work. Right. Why does it not work? Because it rewards lazy people and it punishes ambitious people. It's not doesn't doesn't work with human nature, but it would work if you have fucking hive mind.

2:38:56If we all we all understand what it means to put in effort. We all understood what what each other are feeling and thinking. And we all compiled resources and fixed all of our social problems. Like literally stop all wars, stop all crimes, stop all violence, stop all poverty. Done. And then what do we do? We work together to solve whatever the fuck else is wrong with society. Well, it's more like what is left over that we haven't figured out. Think about what the world was like before the internet. It's almost impossible to imagine. But we both grew up without it. Yeah. Yeah. And so we're entering into this new world.

2:39:36Think about what world was like without the hive mind. But yet we all grew up without it. Like that might be the next thing. The thing that I remember the most about that era is I had a positive sum view of everybody. Really? Meaning there weren't, like, the bad actors were pretty bad. But, yeah, generally, like, I looked up to most business people. Like, the people that I now, I feel like, have been a little bit unmasked then to me were pristine. Oh, that's interesting. Like the Bill Gateses of the world. You know, I was like, man, I really aspired to be Bill Gates when I was, like, 13 or 14.

2:40:11It just seemed like. And now you're like, why is he buying all the farmland, this fucking weirdo? I mean, it's fucking so funny. He bought this like 45 ,000 acres and 4 ,500 acres. I can't get the order of magnitude right. In Phoenix to build his own digital city. Yeah. Okay. It's like weird. So I bought the 1 ,700 acres beside him.

2:40:35That's hilarious. Fuck you. It's a very odd thing. It's a very odd thing when people get exposed and you just go like, what the fuck is that guy really all about? but also like how isolated is he? He's been isolated for 50 years. Right. Like who are his friends and how many people does he have? It must be very hard to be him actually. Especially now that he's divorced, right? So now he's got no one going, but that speech fucking sucked. Yeah, I mean he has a long-term partner. She seems like a lovely woman. But yeah, it's just got to be super lonely. It's got to be. To me it's not worth that level of I don't even know what is it material success at least measured in the outside world I don't know what it is but it's not that's a lot man I don't know how Elon does it it's a lot it's super isolating it's just he's very by himself and he's going to be even more isolated in a matter of a few months and that's unfortunate because you have very empathetic very kind of like sensitive people like that I think need other people well he's got people around him, but he's got very few people around him that can kick reality at him.

2:41:50You know? That is a bit of a problem. But he still seems to be having fun. Every time I'm around him, we have a bunch of laughs. He's fun to hang out with. He's got an incredible sense of humor. Jamie and I went down to one of the rocket launches at SpaceX. Yeah, we went down there. Fucking crazy. And we watched from the ground while I took off, which is incredible. How far was it, Jamie? He was like two miles away from us a mile mile and a half. So it's a mile and a half. You feel in your chest. Have you been? When a rocket launch has been a dude, it's bananas the fucking thing. First of all, it doesn't look that far.

2:42:25It looks like it's like Maybe quarter mile I'm just not good at judging a star ship. Oh, yeah, so you feel it You've like his kids are crying like we want to go inside like it's disturbing Like the amount of energy that's coming out of these fucking rocket boosters. And then I hung out with him in the command center while the rocket was flying through space and we're watching it on all these monitors and then lands in the water in Australia. And he's cracking jokes the whole time because the thing is like losing pressure because it's – they're stress testing all this stuff. Which is really funny when really dumb people are, oh, he's a fucking dumbass.

2:43:03His rockets keep blowing up. Like they just don't understand. Like the only way you find out what the capability of this technology is, is you have to like let it blow up. And then you go, okay, it needs to be thicker. It needs to be this and that. And we need to add these things. And there's sensors everywhere. And so he's cracking jokes the entire time while this thing is like losing pressure. And it eventually wound up landing and it was fine. But it did have a hole in it. But it was just like he's laughing. Like he's having a good old time. He's not freaked out. You know, he's uniquely built to handle it.

2:43:34I, when there was a rocket launch in Wradenburg in California, and I chartered a Pilatus, and I, because you can get low. What's a Pilatus? Like a little, like, propeller plane. Oh, okay. And I went around and around, and I have this video of it kind of, like, coming up and through. How close were you?

2:43:55100 miles. Oh, wow. But it's, like, right there. Uh-huh. You know, because it's the distance. Right. And it's coming up, and I'm kind of going around. It was the craziest thing. It was cool. It was super cool. That shit is super cool. It's very cool. Oh, my God. It's very cool. I mean, just Starbase is bananas. Just when you go down there and they have their own town, the whole thing is straight. There's fucking Cybertrucks everywhere. I'm like, how do you find your car? Is it an incorporated town? It started off as unincorporated, but it's its own thing now. I believe it's its own town. Is there a mayor?

2:44:27That's a good question. I think there is. I think we talked about this. I don't remember, though. but the actual factory itself is nuts because i jamie and i were both like this is way bigger than i thought it was going to be yeah and the rockets are way bigger than you thought and like the garage doors are fucking bananas they got a city government website commission mayor that's crazy it's really crazy bobby peter bobby peter is the mayor yeah they have their own little That's awesome. Irish pub. It's like, it's really cool. They have really good food. You know, when he opened the first Gigafactory, which was in Nevada, we had a party.

2:45:08And it was like a small opening thing. And so we all drove in there. And I have a video of me in just like a pickup truck driving into the thing. I started the video. And I think it was 43 seconds until it ended. And this was like, you know, a decade ago. And I thought to myself, this is implausible. Like I've never even contemplated things that could be built this big. I didn't think it was allowed. I don't even know how something like this works. And I was like, how do you envision this whole thing works? Like simple. Raw materials in the front, cars out the back.

2:45:46That's it? It sounds so simple. Well, he thinks big. He thinks big. And thank God he's around. I mean, if he wasn't around, if he hadn't purchased Twitter, I think our entire civilization would look very different. Very different. I mean, that sounds like a very grandiose thing to say. Sounds hyperbolic, but you're right. I think it's true. Because I think free speech is a core component of our civilization. And I don't really think we had it. I think it was curated. And it was very tightly controlled by the actual federal government, which is spooky. No, no. It decided what we should be paying attention to.

2:46:21Yes. Just put it very simply without kind of like, and that's not right. Right. Because when they're telling you to pay attention to this and the actual issue is this and you cannot, then you can't fix what's actually broken. Right. And we start to basically be like we're part of just a useful idiot for these people. Yes. And that's not right. It's not right. Listen, man, this was a lot of fun. It's always great to talk to you. Thank you very much for doing this. It was very cool. Um, let's do it again sometime. All right. Thank you. All right. Bye, everybody.