#2516 - Rowan Jacobsen

27:57Look at that. That's a tan right there. Right. Right. So how was he getting it, though? Like, I remember when I was a kid in Boston, a lot of people used tanning beds, especially in the wintertime. And they still do. Those are actually, like, on the rise. And they do, they seem to raise your risk of melanoma for sure. There you go. That's how he did it. Ah, look, he's got a reflect-a-tan thing. So he was just out there getting sunlight all the time. And he didn't look bad. That's, you know, that's a weird one, right? He claims he's never had skin cancer, I think. Well, he probably was doing it so often that his body was prepared for it, right?

28:36Look at that photo of him with that lady in the corner. Yeah, look at that. That's nuts. See, that's the thing. I think if you're getting that regular dosage, your body is producing all of these compounds whose entire job is to make sure your cells don't turn cancerous. Because, you know, living things have been working on this for 500 million years. Like, they've been hammered by the sun every day and they've got to deal with it. Right. So it's when, it seems like when your skin is totally unprepared and you shock it with, like, a massive dose that it's not ready for, then you're in trouble. Like, that's the kind of thing that triggers trouble.

29:20Was there any pushback on this research? Like when you first started examining this and realizing that sun exposure has a lot of benefits, were any dermatologists saying, hey, this is dangerous information, you shouldn't say this? Hell yeah. I've been denounced multiple times by the American Academy of Dermatology, like officially. They sent an official letter when I write an article and they say, nobody should be getting any sun exposure. That's their opinion. no one should be getting any sun exposure, regardless of the benefits, the vitamin D, the... No sun exposure without protection from either sunscreen or, you know, clothing.

30:00Wow. And if that makes you vitamin D deficient, take a pill. So that's what needs to change, because those pills haven't panned out in tests. They don't work like natural D does for whatever reason. Really? Yeah, they don't work at all. What do you mean? So everyone thought, like back in the 80s, 90s, everyone started noticing, scientists started noticing that people who naturally had lower amounts of vitamin D in their blood had higher rates of all like the classic chronic diseases. So they started thinking, okay, vitamin D, it's like a magic pill almost. It'll cure, it'll reduce everyone's risk of all these diseases if we raise their rates of D.

30:41So they started recommending vitamin D pills, which I think are still like the number one supplement in the world. I take it. So then they did all these clinical trials to prove that it would help. Huge, huge clinical trials. Tens of thousands of people, follow-ups that went for many years. None of them showed a benefit. No benefit in terms of your immune response? No benefit for any condition. Now, did they take vitamin D along with vitamin K2 and with magnesium? Because that's what's recommended. So I don't, I mean, there were a bunch of different. Apparently vitamin D by itself is not effective.

31:18That you need vitamin D with K2 and magnesium. And I think there might be another one. Put that into perplexity, please. See what it says, like, what are the benefits of vitamin D and what should it be taken with? Because I think magnesium and K2 are the big ones. And that together they have a sort of a synergistic effect. Yeah. That could be. Like, yeah, I'd be curious. Yeah. I think vitamin D by itself, the body has a problem absorbing it. It's like there's a lot of things like that. Like zinc is like that. You need an ionophore to absorb zinc. So you take it with quercetin. Well, one thing, D, you know, the way it naturally comes in through the skin and it comes in with a whole bunch of related compounds.

32:01Right. And so, yeah, I do think there's sort of a synergistic effect when it's combined with the right things. But D from the sun has always been known as the best way to get it. For sure. The best way to get vitamin D, the most effective, the healthiest way, is through sun exposure. Yeah. So here it is. That's how the design is supposed to work. Perplexity says vitamin D helps your body absorb calcium, builds strong bones and teeth, support muscles and nerves, plays a key role in immune function. It's best absorbed when taken with a meal or a snack that contains some fat and often paired with calcium for bone health.

32:27um what so please put in what are the benefits of vitamin d taken with k2 and magnesium see if it says that because this is what my doctor who is a vitamin specialist recommends benefits when taken with k2 and magnesium

32:56Okay. Taking vitamin D together with vitamin K2 and magnesium can make each of them work more effectively, especially for bones and heart, as long as the doses are appropriate for you. The trio mainly improves how your body handles calcium. Interesting. D helps you absorb it. Magnesium helps activate D. And K2 helps send calcium into bones instead of arteries. D increases calcium absorption from your gut and supports bone, muscle, and immune function. Magnesium required to activate vitamin D. Low magnesium can blunt vitamin D's effect and also directly support bone structure and many enzymes. K2 activates proteins that move calcium into bones and teeth and keep it out of the arteries and soft tissues, helping bone and cardiovascular health.

33:45Potential benefits of the combo, better bone support, heart and artery protection, more efficient vitamin D use. Okay. So the doctor is correct. So maybe that's the problem, is that these people were taking it with low magnesium, low calcium, didn't have K2. Yeah. I'd be curious if there was an effect on disease incidence for that combination. I don't know. Because the D on its own, yeah, it didn't show any effect. But sun exposure. Let's put that in. Does vitamin D taken on its own have any health benefits? Let's see what it says to that. Because I'd never heard that, that D on its own was not effective at all.

34:32I just heard that it was minimally effective, that you had to take it with other... It seems like it only helps people who are really deficient. Like if you're super low, like below 16 nanograms per milliliter, then probably it's a good idea. But like for people who already had like at least 20 nanograms per milliliter It didn't seem to have any of these benefits that they're seeing in people who naturally had high rates It says yes vitamin D on its own has several well-proven health benefits especially for bones muscles and immunity Just like a general answer, huh? bone strength and fracture prevention muscle function adequate button What's that I didn't I missed the word on taken on it on its own That's probably why the answer was weird.

35:19So let's see. Yes, as clear proven benefits, especially for bones, muscles, and correcting deficiency. Yeah, so that's going to be for people who have super low levels. Mm-hmm. Preventing rickets. There it is. Yeah. So they had thought that it might reduce incidence of all these other diseases based on what they're seeing for people who naturally had high levels through sun exposure. And it didn't. Wait a minute. People who had high levels through sun exposure. Yeah. Because your natural level of vitamin D is sort of a direct meter of how much sun exposure. Right. But this is natural level. You're not talking about supplementation.

35:56Right. Right. Okay. So that was why people who had high levels of D without supplementation have lower rates of all, like every disease you can think of. Right. So the hope was that raising everyone's D to those levels would have the same effect. And it didn't. Like the New England Journal of Medicine actually did an editorial in 2022 saying stop prescribing D. It doesn't work. God, that seems incorrect, though. Because if you're taking it with magnesium and K2, it seems that they do work synergistically. And there seems to be proven health benefits. One of the problems, I think, is like I think people generally want to avoid recommending supplementation for some reason.

36:45It's kind of a weird thing. Like they want to dismiss it. Like I had a doctor once that told me don't bother taking vitamins. Just eat a balanced diet. And I was like, look at you. Guy looked like shit. He didn't look as good as you, right? He looked terrible. Doctors, yeah, I'm amazed how poor – what poor health they generally seem to be displaying. I can't take it – I mean it's so hard to take seriously a guy with a gut when – he looked terrible. And he was telling me that I just need a healthy diet. And I'm like, okay, I do have a healthy diet. But also I feel different when I take vitamins.

37:20And my blood work reflects that. Yeah. I noticed that when I was – I started going to all the conferences of the Sun researchers. and they're all in like the basements of hotels and those guys all are as pacey as it gets. Like do none of you guys like, you know, practice what you preach? Really? How strange is it that human beings with all of our knowledge, with I mean obviously there's much more to learn, we're still confused about how we interact with our environment. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. With sun, which seems to be like it's there. It's everywhere. It's like you're always in the sun in the normal world environment outside of cities and all that stuff.

38:04It seems like we would have an understanding of what happens when you're interacting with sun. Yeah, and light, period. Like light of all kinds. Like it seems like there's the sense in biology that light didn't matter. It's like just ephemeral, which, you know, the quantum physicist 100 years ago understood that light and matter are just like two halves of the same coin, right? and that light totally affects the behavior of molecules. We're made of molecules. Light's going to matter. So I actually think, like, that's where I eventually got to with the book. I was like, we need to think about our light diets and our, like, lightscapes that we're, you know, surrounding ourselves with, like, more seriously than we have.

38:42Well, it seems like your work is based entirely on the data. So what did these dermatologists have to say about the data if they're denouncing you And they're saying that, you know, this guy should not be listened to. The things you're saying are dangerous. Like, but you're talking about data. So I don't understand how they can just make those flat statements like that. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens.

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39:58That's half off at simplisafe.com slash rogan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Once you've got a great name for your business, you need a great domain. and Squarespace makes it easy to lock in a domain. You just search the name you want, buy it, and then you're ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird upsells. Go to squarespace.com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. Right, and I think we just need to have a conversation about the data and there's no right answer ahead of time.

40:39But they don't – like their job is to prevent skin cancer. So if that's your only job, you're going to tell people stay out of the sunlight. Forever. Forever, right? And no one can call you on that. No one can say, hey, like I got skin cancer. It's your fault. Right. But doesn't sun exposure improve cardiovascular health and lower blood pressure? And isn't cardiovascular disease a far more dangerous problem than skin cancer in terms of numbers? It's number one. 20 million deaths a year, cardio. So anything that moves the needle on that is awesome, you know? And it does. And it seems to. Like, all the studies show it does.

41:19But they're all observational studies, right? You look at populations. You're like, oh, these people have more sun exposure, lower blood pressure, lower rates of cardiovascular disease. But then, you know, the other side will say, you know, correlation does not prove causation. Like, prove, show us that it's, you know, do your giant clinical study. where you stick half the people in the sunlight and they live longer, which is not going to happen. Right. Yeah. But it's like, are they willing to have a conversation with you? They're not willing to... They don't want to look outside of the sun and skin cancer question.

41:58Like, they're not willing to entertain any of the other benefits that are outside of their field. So there's got to be somebody out there who can be the generalist, who can think about it holistically. That seems so ignorant. It's the state of science now. Like, the science is, you know, like a field of micro-specialties. Would you like some coffee? Yeah, I'll take a little. That looks good when you're pouring it. It's also a very shiny press you've got there. Cheers, sir. Cheers. Is coffee good for you? Coffee is awesome. Coffee is shockingly good for you. Talk to me. Let's go. It is fucking crazy how good coffee is for you.

42:38I've been, like, startled by the, like, power of the evidence. Yeah. I've read both. I've read It's Bad for You, and I dismissed it because I'm biased. And I love coffee. And I just, it just tastes too good. It feels too good. I like it. But I've read a lot of benefits about it. I think it's the best possible supplement. Really? You think of it as a supplement? And I think it's all due to mitochondrial function. I think it makes your mitochondria just spin. And is it particularly because of caffeine or coffee itself? Is it the coffee bean? I think it's caffeine, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's other stuff in coffee that's contributing.

43:27Because tea doesn't seem to quite deliver the goods like coffee does. No. But caffeine is actually, the plants are making it to kill bugs. Right. Right? Because it makes the bugs' mitochondria run out of control and they basically, like, blow up. It does that to us, but we have these other, like, governors, like, that come in and slow down that ramp up. So we get the nice ramp up without the explosion. So it's good. So it makes, you know, we produce energy more efficiently with less wear and tear. That's all I need to hear. I'm in. I just love coffee. I'm not giving it up. But I've heard many people say that Michael Pollan had a really interesting anecdote.

44:12He laid off coffee for I think three or four months as an experiment. And then he had a cup of coffee and he said it was like taking a psychedelic. He said, I just felt so amazing. The effect was so profound. He said, I really wanted to do it only that way where I only take it very rarely. But then I fell right back into my little way. He went right back. Yeah. I remember that article. It was great. And also he said none of the caffeine researchers touched the stuff. I'm like, that's not good. But yeah, he went right back to it. And I think he's a proud coffee drinker. Yeah, he is. He went right back to it.

44:53So have you had any conversations with these dermatologists that are denouncing you? No, but I'd like to actually. Are they willing or have they avoided them? They have so far really avoided like they they they just say, you know, we're not ready to look at any of that research I'm so weird. I think it's gonna change. I think actually Like like I said, I think light medicine is actually gonna become very important in the next 10 20 years and dermatologists are kind of positioned to be like the leaders on that stuff because like skin is the primary interface with light for our bodies and they should be experts on all this.

45:34Red light therapy is a big thing now and dermatologists are doing that even though the evidence isn't great for that but I think there's probably something there. But they should basically I think they need to be thinking more about all these different wavelengths of light as healing modalities and how to work them into regular like programs. I've talked about this before, so I apologize to anybody listening, but I've essentially completely stopped my macular degeneration with red light therapy. Wow. Yeah. Not just stopped it, but reversed it. Like I don't need reading glasses anymore. I've been using a red light bed for about two years now.

46:13And from the time I started using it within about a month, I started seeing benefits. And so Gary Brekka was on the podcast and he explained it to me. And so I went out and bought one of these really expensive, it's like a tanning bed, this thing you lie in. And I do it three times a week for 20 minutes. So all over? Yep. Naked. Just lie down in there. And I keep my eyes open. And I went to a tanning bed once, not a tanning bed, a red light bed once at a health clinic. And they were like, got to wear these goggles and make sure you close your eyes before the light goes on. I was like, okay. I did all that.

46:45And apparently there's some benefit that even when blindfolded, it increases your vision. Yeah, for sure. And again, I think mitochondria are part of that answer. There's a guy at University College London, Glenn Jeffrey, who this is his whole field, optometry and red light. And he has shown in multiple different animals, including humans, that red light improves mitochondrial function and improves vision. Yeah. I mean, I'm 58. And for me to be 56 and saying I'm fucked, I had these fucking things everywhere. I had these reading glasses. I had them all over my house. I'd gotten up to 3X. These are the cheap Amazon ones.

47:28I had a nice pair, but I keep losing them. So I just went up and bought cheap ones. They seemed to work. And it was just fine for looking at a computer, reading my emails, reading my phone. And I needed them to read my phone. I don't need them anymore, like at all. I don't use them anymore. My vision's not perfect. It's not as good as it was when I was 20, but it is way better than it was when I was 56. And, yeah, I think – so the mitochondria in the eyes have to fire faster than any mitochondria anywhere else in the body. The eyes burn through energy like no other cells because it's like – it's kind of the toughest task.

48:08It's like they got to go super fast. So, yeah, those mitochondria need to be on top of their game, and it seems like red light benefits that in particular. It seems so closed-minded that these dermatologists aren't willing to say maybe we're looking at just insufficient amount of data, maybe we're looking at this wrong, maybe the whole thing is much more nuanced, and maybe there's benefits if it's done correctly. I just don't understand why they're not willing. If there's all this data, which clearly you show in your book, that there's a tremendous amount of data. Why? You know, like, so there's this, like, saying attributed to Max Planck, who's this, like, quantum physicist.

48:51Science advances one funeral at a time. Right? So I think we got to let the old guard, like, die off a little bit. But I guarantee there's a young generation coming in who's going to be really interested in light and how they can use it. Oh, certainly. Well, I think there's so many conversations available online now from actual researchers and people that have put in the time and put in the work and explored things from this position that like, hey, maybe the old guard are not correct. And the data seems to show that that's true. Yeah. And it's fun. I mean, playing with light, it's super fun. So like this is a way you can make your world a little bit richer is starting to think about this stuff.

49:31Well, it's also like don't you want to be informed? And if we do understand that it has an effect on mitochondria, and there is all this evidence that red light seems to have some benefits, I just don't understand how someone could be an expert in skin and ignore that. Well, I think that – and they won't object to the red. Some of them are using red light therapy because there's no risk of skin cancer from red. It's only the UV and maybe a little bit of the blue that contributes to skin cancer. So it's the UV where they get a little wigged out. Yeah. But even that, it seems like there's a – like in your book you show there's a tremendous amount of data.

50:11There's health benefits to it. So I just don't understand. And that data is – it's coming from all different other fields like immunology, cardiology. So – and like scientists are sort of increasingly like hesitant to trespass on their other domains. Right. Like they're not going to walk across campus to the other building anymore. Yeah. But that needs to change. Yeah, we've had those discussions too with scientists that are super frustrated, especially when they try to get interdisciplinary groups together to study one particular thing. And everyone's resisting because they have their own work that they're working on.

50:49They don't want to get involved. And it's like, guys, this is what you're here for. There's not a lot of scientists. You got to do your job. because, like, you're the only ones that are doing it. Without you guys, we're fucked. And if you're out there relying on old insufficient data or, you know, you have this very small data set that shows that there's negative outcomes to sunlight and so you just throw the baby out with the bathwater, like, you're doing the whole field a massive disservice. And the other part of it is that science, it's sort of very self-reinforcing. It's all grant-based, essentially.

51:27Like if you're a scientist, you want to do a study, you have to apply for a grant to get the money to do the study. And there's generally a handful of entities that are like handing out the grant money. And it's the old guys waiting to die who are going to approve what they think is the truth. They're going to fund the study that fits with what they already know about the world. So it's this kind of crazy system where the only way you can get money to do a study is if you're already telling them what they know. Right. Right. So it's very difficult to get funded to do something that goes against the grain, increasingly so.

51:59And that's a problem. And so much of it is dependent upon the ego of the people that are at the top of the organization. Ego is definitely part of it. It's a giant part of it because if they've based their entire career on telling you one thing that turns out to be incorrect, they're very reluctant to correct themselves. Yeah. It's very rare to find the individual who's well-known in the field and is eager to self-correct. So have you had any conversations with any of these dermatologists? No, but I'd love to. Not one? That seems crazy. Have you reached out to any of them? I have. I've reached out and I get the boilerplate.

52:36Like, we don't want anyone in the sun. Take your D-pills. It doesn't matter. And the one that really I think has got to change is the skin color question. because it's fine to go with the recommendations for avoiding sun for people with fair skin. But for people with dark skin who have almost no risk from sun-induced skin cancer and can benefit hugely from things that will lower blood pressure and lower cardiovascular disease, it seems like you're not being fair to those people. Not only that, it makes you feel better, which is very important just for sanity. I mean, I think that gets underplayed.

53:20Like mood and happiness is kind of the whole deal, right? And there's just no question that sun exposure makes you happier. I spent a week with my friend Brian Callen and Steve Rinella in Alaska on Prince Edward's Island. And it rains there like 350 days a year. And we got rained on for the entire week. and then when I came back to LA, I was driving around and the sun was magnificent. It felt so good. I stood outside. I closed my eyes. I like stretched my arms wide. Like I was just taking it all in. And I called my friend Steve up and I said, dude, because we were in the rain for like a week, I go, I'm in LA right now in the sun and it feels amazing.

54:07I never felt the sun like this before. It's because like my body was saying, you didn't get enough of this for a week. Now take it in and we're going to reward you with all these amazing endorphins and good feelings. Like if that was a drug, that drug that I took, like if depressed people could take whatever I felt when I was out in the sun after a week in the rain, they would take it every day. They would change the world. I could feel like this all the time and it went away. You know, It went away because L.A. it's sunny all day long, every day. Right, right. So eventually I got accustomed to it.

54:40But that feeling that I got after the week in the rain and coming back, just be like, ah. It was incredible. It was like a drug, an amazing drug, a happy drug. Yeah, it's an awesome drug. And I've felt it for sure. Especially like early spring. If I leave Vermont and I have something in L.A., I'm just like, why is everyone not just dancing on the streets? This feels so good. But the problem is Los Angeles, they're so used to it. They're so spoiled. Everyone there is so spoiled weather-wise. It's the perfect weather on earth. It's incredible, especially if you live in Malibu where it barely even gets hot.

55:22So you're dealing with that cool ocean breeze and it's sunny every day. You know, like, oh. Yeah. But how about here? Do you end up spending a lot of time outside here? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, I do. But I'm outdoors all the time. I work out outside. I do a lot of farmer's carries outside. I practice archery, so I shoot my bow outside every day, and I love it. I feel better. Even when it's hot out, I don't mind because I'm really kind of accustomed to it because of sauna use. I use the sauna every day, and I'm pretty religious about it. So my body's really acclimated to heat. so it doesn't really bother me that much.

55:59I just bring a big jug, a 64-ounce jug of water with ice and electrolytes, and I just drink that while I'm out there. So I shoot my bow for an hour and a half, two hours, and 105 degrees, and I'm fine. I love it. I actually love that too. Yeah, like as a kid in Florida, we'd play basketball after school for hours, or in summer it would be 105 degrees, and then you just kind of turn the hose. You stick it out in your mouth for quite a long time. Yeah, I mean, it feels great. It's just you have to make sure you're not dehydrated and you have to make sure you don't burn. That's kind of all it is.

56:34Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's all it seems to be. But we do see, like, truckers. Have you ever seen those? You're talking about that famous photo. Yeah. That is a crazy photo. Crazy photo. So what we're referring to is there's a photo of this trucker. and the left side of his face from the sun coming in from the window looks like he's 20 years older on his left side than it is on his right side. It's like special effects. Somebody melted the left side of his face. What's that all about? Yeah, there's the guy. There he is. That's literally nuts. That's literally nuts. Like left side is just sloping off basically.

57:11His left side looks like a 100-year-old man truck driver face. Years behind the wheel driving a truck. damage typically limited to the left side of the face. So it's literally called truck driver face. Yeah. Now, so that photo and that study got used to, like, scare the shit out of a lot of people, try to keep them out of the sun. Especially people that are vain and don't want that fucked up wrinkly face. This episode is brought to you by Paleo Valley. You guys know I live a super busy lifestyle, so I need snacks that don't slow me down, and Paleo Valley is the perfect on-the-go snack. That's why I keep a couple beef sticks in my bag.

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58:32I'm all in for the jalapeno. Go to paleovalley.com slash Rogan and use the code Rogan. That's paleovalley.com slash Rogan. Oh, that's crazy. Look at the difference between. Wow, that's literally bananas. So what they're showing back and forth is they're just taking the skin from the left side of the face and switching sides. So you can see how much damage he's received on that side, the driver's side. Yeah, and so there's a couple of interesting things there. One, that is shocking, but the question to ask is, why doesn't every trucker look like that, right? Like, if that's the problem, why him?

59:10Because I've been driving in a car for 45 years, and, you know, my face is... The same on the left as it is on the right. It's kind of hanging in there. But the other thing is, window glass, I think, is actually a really interesting problem to talk about. Yeah. Because window glass blocks UVB, but not UVA. And there's two different wavelengths of UV. The UVB is the super high energy one. UVA is a little bit lower. It's kind of on the way to blue. And they used to think back in the day that UVB was the only one that caused skin cancer. And those old sunscreens that we used in the 70s, 80s only blocked UVB.

59:52Window glass blocks UVB, blocks only part of the UVA. So anytime you're driving or you're hanging out in a window in your house, you're getting a bunch of UVA. You're not going to burn because UVB is the one that causes burning. But you're still going to get a bunch of UVA, which they figured out like in the 90s does cause skin cancer. Oh, wow. So sun through the windows is not as good as sun outside. It blocks the UVB, but the UVA comes through, but you'll never have a burn reaction because of it. But you might be getting damaged. Yeah. And so like in the U.S., people get slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the left side of their body.

1:00:40In the U.K., they get slightly higher rates of skin cancer on the right side. Aha. Because they drive on the opposite side of the road. Yeah. So window glass is... Slightly? Slightly. It's like 52, 48. It's not huge. Okay, but it's statistically significant? Statistically significant, yeah. Huh. So do you think it's this guy's particular genes? There must be something weird about that guy. Right. Well, how many instances of truck driver face do they have? I just Googled the condition, and it's only him coming up in the photos. So this is the thing. There's one lady, but she clearly doesn't seem to have the same issue.

1:01:15There's a lot of truck drivers that have been doing it for 50 years. That's not the same thing. Oh, that's not real. Is that real? That's a different thing. She's got something wrong with her jaw. Oh. But it's coming up as the same condition. Unilateral derma. Oh, so she had some sort of cancer that made its way into her jaw? I would have assumed that more cases would pop up, but it's literally just him. So that's the thing. The real question is, what's up with that dude? Yeah, interesting. Here's a different truck. I don't think that's the same guy. No, it doesn't seem like the same person. It might be.

1:01:51It's hard to say. It could be different lighting. But so the thing is, so those sunscreens that were acting kind of like window glass in the 70s and 80s and even into the 90s before we got the broad spectrum sunscreens, they're blocking the UVB. So you weren't going to ever burn. And that's what SPF actually measures is how many more times you can be out in the sun without burning. But it's based totally on UVB. So if you've got SPF 30, in theory, you can spend 30 times as long outside before you start to burn. That's a long time, right? But all that time, UVA is just pouring into you. And they now know that UVA is the one that probably is most likely to cause melanoma.

1:02:34Oh, that's crazy. Wow. So sunscreen. Now, I use a natural sunscreen when I use it at all. It's the stuff that's like beef tallow based and there's zinc in it. It's very white and obvious. You know, it's the spray stuff goes unclear. You can't even tell you have it on. Yeah. But it's very effective. But I'm always like super hesitant. I'm like, what's in that stuff that we're going to find out 15, 20 years from now? Like if it can block the sun. So it's a chemical and you're spraying this chemical on an organ, which is your skin. So your skin's absorbing it. I'm like, what's going on there? And they used to say, oh, no, no, it's not absorbed very much.

1:03:14And then the FDA, CDC did studies a few years ago and discovered that it's absorbed at very large amounts. Yes. It turns up at high doses or higher doses than they would like it to in blood, breast milk, urine, you name it. And what specifically turns up and what's dangerous about it? So they're suspected to be hormone disruptors, all those classic chemical filters like oxybenzone. um So there isn't much proof that they're dangerous in the amounts used, but they definitely are absorbed at much higher rates than we thought. And the FDA has refused to approve them as safe, pending more testing. And nobody's done the testing.

1:04:02But they're about to get phased out anyway. Like just as of a couple months ago, the government changed the rules and is going to let in for the first time in 30 years new ingredients, which they've been using in Europe and Asia and Australia for decades. And the sunscreen companies have been asking to use them and haven't been allowed to. But now they're finally going to get to use one of the main ones. And what are these ingredients? So it's called like BEMOTRISONOL or something. And there's another one that you see in Europe called like MEXERIL 400. But they're way better. Like basically U.S.

1:04:42sunscreens are a generation behind everyone else because in the U.S. sunscreens are regulated as over-the-counter drugs. BEMOTRISONOL, yeah. BEMOTRISONOL, highly effective broad-spectrum UV-filtered blocks, both UVA and UVB, approved by FDA as an over-the-counter sunscreen ingredient in June of 2026. Oh, wow. So this month celebrated for being highly photo stable, doesn't break down the sun, transparent on the skin without leaving a white cast and gentle on sensitive skin. So this is RFK Jr. stuff. Yeah. This one looks really good. So this other stuff that has been in there, why didn't it get examined if Europe and Asia and all these other places were using these different safer versions?

1:05:26Yeah. They all bailed on it long ago because it was all we had. God damn it. That drives me crazy. Yeah. So in the U.S., sunscreens are regulated as drugs, counter drugs. So you have to do all this safety testing if you want to get a new ingredient in. Everywhere else, they're just cosmetics. So you can use kind of whatever you want with more minimal safety testing. So the companies wanted to use this stuff in the U.S. forever, but the FDA said, sure, just do the testing. But they didn't want to do – it was too expensive to do the testing. They would have to test it on animals. They didn't want to get the blowback on that.

1:06:04There are a bunch of reasons that they weren't willing to do it. Also, I think they're a little scared of what they might find. So anyway, so our sunscreens have not been nearly as good as what's used elsewhere, both in terms of performance and maybe safety suspicions. So that's going to change by the end of this year. It's going to get better. Well, that's good. With the traditional sunscreen ingredients that we used to use, Is there any negative health consequences of using them that they've shown? Like is there any diseases that occur more readily or more frequently? Not that have been proven.

1:06:39There's – like toxicologists are a little suspicious about some of them. Like they've definitely been shown to mess up coral, right? Like people – Coral reefs, right? Yeah. That's one of the things they found after COVID, right? They used to think – Exactly. They used to think that it was the warming of the environment. This was one of the things that climate change people used to say. The climate change was destroying the coral reefs. And then it turns out actually it's all these people that have sunscreen all over their body and they jump in the ocean and they're essentially poisoning the reef.

1:07:08Yeah, I mean it's all of the above, I'm pretty sure. But yeah, the sunscreen at that kind of concentration, if you've got a bazillion snorkelers in the water, can definitely mess up the coral pretty badly. Wasn't there some sort of a study that examined what happened to the reef after COVID? there was one particular reef that was in this highly visited area where people would jump in. And they showed a massive increase in the reef after COVID. Yeah. Hawaii banned use of those sunscreen. A bunch of places banned that style of sunscreen. But they don't really check your bags, though. Yeah, right.

1:07:52When they say banned, people are going to take it anyway. But it doesn't look like – I don't think it has much impact on us unless you're using a ton of it, which of course now some people are. So it's not great for you, but it's not the worst. Yeah. There's been a bunch of studies that just looked at lifespan and sunscreen doesn't seem to have any impact whatsoever, like positive or negative on lifespan. So it just might have some sort of an impact on hormonal function? Yeah. It could well. Endocrine disruption. Endocrine disruption. There's a guy named Graham Peasley at Notre Dame who found that many, many cosmetic products of all kinds are actually contaminated with forever chemicals.

1:08:40And even if they don't have it on the ingredients, like anything that's like water resistant or super smooth is quite possibly going to have forever chemicals in it. And some of it is actually coming from the plastic containers because those get – they basically get like fluorinated with like fluorine gas before they get anything in them, which is supposed to make them like a little smoother inside of the containers. But it turns out that actually leaks Forever Chemicals into the product, whatever is in there. That's what he found. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, this is a problem with hot coffee when you're drinking it out of a paper cup.

1:09:21Very similar, yeah. Yeah. People don't realize, like, the paper cup is not capable of keeping that liquid. Yeah. It would turn to mush. Yeah. And the reason why it doesn't turn to mush is because there's essentially a condom, like, around the inside of the coffee cup. And, you know, Paul Saladino broke a coffee cup down to show what it looks like on the inside. And you're like, oh, no, you're pouring hot liquid into plastic, which you're never supposed to do. And it's also like most coffee machines. Like a giant percentage of coffee machines have just plastic everywhere. I got rid of mine. That's why we use French press at the studio.

1:09:56And I use that at home too. And I have one of those little Aero presses to make an individual cup of coffee. It's like the plastic is a real problem. And heating it is terrible. We know that about water bottles. Like you're never supposed to drink out of a water bottle that you leave in the hot sun in your car. So now picture that bottle of sunscreen that's sitting in your car, right, cooking. Yeah. And leaching into the material. Yuck. Yeah, not good. People don't think of the skin as an organ. And I was explaining to a friend of mine the other day. He was using hand wash, that fucking hand sanitizer stuff.

1:10:33And I'm like, man, I don't think that's good for you. I think if you want to wash your hands, you should just use soap and water. And then I read this article about it. Like, oh, yeah, that's a toxic chemical. Like hand sanitizer, when you're using it every day, you're essentially exposing your skin, your organ to this like what exactly is in hand sanitizer and is it bad for you? Because I remember this article, but I just like went over the headline and briefly started reading it. And then I had to do something and I put a bookmark to it that was going to go back to it later and I never did. OK, I thought you were going to say like something happened to the bookmark.

1:11:10No, no, no, no. No, I just never went back to it. But I remember during the COVID times, everybody was just like hand sanitizer everywhere. I'm like, I just don't think that can be good for you. I mean, anything that's antibiotic, right? Anything that's killing biological life, probably you want to be at least a little bit hesitant with. Mostly alcohol. Well, even alcohol going through your skin like that. isopropyl alcohol sometimes used instead or with ethanol similar levels and then this word benzoyl chloride in many alcohol free products alright see if you can find articles on the dangers of using hand sanitizer because this is what I had read briefly just say overuse it you're gonna fuck up your skin biome but that don't yeah that's what it's saying overuse i just that's i just know that i know a guy's got um ocd and uh he's um you know a hypochondriac a little bit and he uses hand sanitizer all the time it's kind of crazy and uh a friend of mine without knowing went to look at his house because his house was for sale and he's looking at the house he's like this is a very nice house and he opens up a closet and one One of the closets was filled with hand sanitizer.

1:12:34And he got so freaked out, he didn't want to live in the house anymore. He's like, I don't want to buy this house. Like, this guy, like, whatever weird thing he's possessed with that he needs 50 ,000 fucking bottles of hand sanitizer. Yeah, the main issues are just, like, overuse and then don't not use it on your hands, obviously. Don't breathe it. Don't drink it. Right. Only use it on your hands. Yeah. But Jamie's right on the skin biome. Skin biome is turning out to be really important. Right. They call it the gut-skin axis where your skin microbiome and your gut microbiome are chatting all the time.

1:13:08You can change the composition of your skin microbiome based on all kinds of stuff, like products, sun exposure, everything you do. Probiotics. Probiotics. Yeah. Well, in the jujitsu world, in the early 2000s, people started really getting into probiotics. They started really getting into acidophilus, yogurt, kimchi, fermented vegetables and stuff like that just to prevent skin issues. Interesting. Because jujitsu, because you're getting scratched up and you're rolling around and there's a lot of infections. And a lot of people get not just infections like staph infection, but they also get ringworm and a bunch of stuff like that.

1:13:51And so some people started using antibacterial soap. And the problem with that is it just nukes all the good flora of your skin. So then there's a company called Defense Soap, and they developed a soap specifically for grapplers. And this soap has tea tree oil and eucalyptus, and it's very healthy for the skin. so it promotes healthy gut flora, but it does kill all the cooties. It kills all the matte cooties. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's basically what you want. Like that microbiome, it can take a lot of natural abuse. It's there. It naturally lives on skin, so it's usually getting like roughed up by the world.

1:14:30But, yeah, chemicals that are too strong can take it out. And the gut flora is important as well. It's like you got to think of the whole thing as one sort of ecosystem. Your whole body, it all works together. And if your gut biome is all fucked up and you don't have healthy gut flora, it can affect all sorts of different issues. And, yeah, it shows up on the skin for sure. That's well known. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Lots of places can accidentally expose you to identity theft. doctor's offices, online retailers, insurance companies, the list goes on. Thankfully, LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone could do on their own.

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1:16:42Before treatment, get checked for infections and tuberculosis. Tell your doctor if you have an infection, flu-like symptoms, or need a vaccine. Explore what's possible. Ask your doctor about Tremphia today. Call 1-800-526-7736 to learn more or visit TremphiaRadio.com. So when you first started getting pushback against this, were you surprised? Did it upset you? What did it feel like to get attacked by a dermatologist? I am naturally conflict-averse, right? I was kind of like, do I even want to talk about this? But it was such interesting information. I thought it was important, so I wanted to.

1:17:21It started, I wrote an article for Outside back in like 2018, and I titled it, Is Sunscreen the New Margarine? Right? Ooh. So right there, that's pushing buttons. Yeah. I probably, you know, in retrospect, I don't push as many buttons today. I just point to the data. You just didn't like it? Didn't like the response? Well, I mean, it got a massive – it went truly viral, as they used to say. But it actually detracted – like now, I think those old sunscreens really were, like margarine, detrimental, like the ones that only blocked UVB. So I think I kind of got it right, but also the title detracted from the information in the article in a sense.

1:18:05But why? Because margarine sucks. Margarine sucks. Those old sunscreens did suck. The new sunscreens are fine. So it's a good comparison. It turns out to have been, yeah. Like the more we learn about those old sunscreens, the more it looks like a sort of like a catastrophic mistake that then got fixed. But yeah, so that – like so now the book is out. Suddenly I've got all these like beauty magazines contacting me. and they have this image of me as like, you know, the Unabomber, like hanging out in my cabin and firing off these missives. Really? Yeah. From beauty magazines? They were nervous to talk to me because they thought I was going to be, you know.

1:18:50A kook. A kook, yeah. Wow. So the first, so is sunscreen the new margarine? So that was the first one. And what was the response to that? So do you remember the first really negative response and how you felt about it? So yeah. So there was an official letter from the AAD. And they're very polite. But they're like, we think this is misrepresenting the information. And we think this is dangerous. If you're telling people that they might benefit from more sunlight, that's dangerous. so that's probably and then you know when that came in I was like so that needs to change if we have in our heads that exposure to any sunshine is dangerous we're not seeing the forest for the trees we've lost the thread on this one so I did a bunch of other articles I did an article that focused specifically on the skin color issue like do people of color do we need to stop telling people of color that they need to protect themselves from the sun And then I did a couple more recently for the Atlantic just on like what should recommendations be.

1:20:08How do we – can we do recommendations that are not one size fits all? Well, skin color in particular is one of the best signs of adaptation to environment. I mean that's how human beings were able to get vitamin D from the sun in a place like Scotland. When people moved there, they got pale as shit. 100%. Completely makes sense. Yeah, and you can track it. It's like the gradations of lightning go with that move northward. Yeah. So you can tell. Like white skin is like a desperate attempt to get enough light in a screwy northern environment. Right. But when those people that have ancestors from that screwy northern environment move to California or Arizona.

1:20:50Or Australia. Yeah. And Australia is real bad, right? Because there's all the people that use hairspray in the 80s. They cause a fucking giant hole in the ozone layer over Australia. Well, yeah, essentially. Yeah. Australia, when I was there, they have these signs on buses, like these warnings that show skin cancer, like these horrible lesions on people's faces and stuff. And it's just this warning to wear sunscreen. Protect yourself. They're right. Right. That's the textbook case where you've got a horrible mismatch between the population and the place. Like super, super high levels of sunshine in Australia, weak ozone, like redheads from Scotland who are trying to deal.

1:21:34So their skin cancer rates are literally like two or three times what they are anywhere else in the world. Wow. Now how much of that is because of the skin color of the general Australian population other than the indigenous people? and how much of it is because of the ozone? So the ozone is healing itself slowly. We're getting there. So that's probably less of an issue now. It's a really fair-skinned population in a super bright, intense environment. So they do need to worry about it. But the problem is the rest of the world has kind of set its rules about sun exposure based on Australia. What's interesting also about Australia is like I wonder how long it takes for human adaptation to start to show itself.

1:22:20Like do you think like in 100 ,000 years from now people that live in Australia will be dark? Well, David Reich did that great episode with you, right? Did you have David Reich on?

1:22:34David Reich. He's the Harvard ancient DNA guy. Did we? No. No? So he just came out with a new study like two months ago. We had so many people on I can't remember who I had on. I can't either. That's a problem. I was like, if I didn't hear it, would I hear it? Anyway. It might be Lex. Or Huberman. It just – that movement started a few thousand years ago. Suddenly, like that pale redhead gene came out of nowhere and like skyrocketed. So it can change pretty quickly when the environmental factors change. Really? That's only a few thousand years old? The redheaded gene, yeah. That's crazy. It was kind of lingering quietly in the background.

1:23:18Maybe that's why gingers get so much hate, because they're just brand new. They are like the next new thing. But yeah, four or five thousand years ago, it suddenly explodes in popularity, but in a very particular place in Northern Europe. And most likely as a result to the environment. Yeah, for 100%. Wow. Yeah. So I wonder how long it's going to take. I wonder if we could go into the future, if the same population lives in Australia now. Well, except here's the weird thing. Like, so Australians versus UK, right, similar genetics. Australia, super high rates of skin cancer because of that sunny environment, but also way better lifespan than in the UK.

1:24:04Really? So skin cancer is a factor, but that sunlight is actually benefiting Australians more than it's hurting them compared to the UK. I wonder if that's a healthy user bias as well because one of the things about Australia is a lot of outdoor activities. A lot of people are doing stuff outside. Yeah. A lot of activity, period. And that could be a factor. And actually that's one thing I come down to in the book is it's really hard to disentangle all of these factors. but what's really obvious is just outside good, too much inside bad. So whatever, like you don't even have to like break it down too much.

1:24:46More outside, covered up, whatever you want is probably going to be good for you. One of the things a friend of mine who's a doctor said that when he was working in New York City in the wintertime he would find people with undetectable levels of vitamin D. Yeah. And he said it was a particular problem with people with darker skin because if you have darker skin, you're going to get less vitamin D from the sun for whatever exposure you do get, and then these people are all indoors all the time. Yeah, that's a really bad formula. If you have dark skin, you need 5 to 10 times as much sunlight to make the same amount of vitamin D.

1:25:22So if you have really dark skin, you're kind of designed for a very bright tropical environment. Where you're outside all the time. Outside all the time. you can handle 12 hours a day of sunshine, and in fact, you're going to benefit from it. You get moved to a really dark environment, that's not going to be good for you. So you probably need to compensate in other ways. It's going to be very interesting when genetic engineering reaches a level where we can turn those things on and off in people. And how do people react to fair-skinned people all of a sudden getting dark. Like, like, you know, like, well, we are one race.

1:26:04We are, it's, we're the human race. There's a bunch of different ancestors where people came from different areas where they adapted to different environments. But the reality is we're just human beings. And we all started in Ethiopia and we spread out. And that's just what we are. We are the result of whatever environment our ancestors evolved in. Yeah, totally. And with skin tone, it's clearly like very, very specific reactions to that environment and trying to figure out what's best in each situation. But there's so much racial identity that's tied to these characteristics of your appearance and where your ancestors are from.

1:26:43And it's going to be very weird if all of a sudden you could, like people get like dark, thick, curly hair and there used to be gingers. I wonder how people are going to react to that. I mean, it's coming, right? Right. It's coming. All bets are off. Yeah. I just wonder how many people are going to be claiming cultural or racial appropriation with people just deciding to have a healthier skin tone that protects them from the sun more. Oh, I see where you're going. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. Like that guy with the melanotan. I wonder if anybody got mad at him. Right. Right. Like what are you supposed to look like?

1:27:23Yeah, what are you supposed to look like? Yeah, yeah. There was a lady that was on a television show once that was turning herself black. It was in the UK. And this lady looked – she looked like she had other issues. She had giant breast implants. She looked like a kook. A bunch of plastic surgery. But she was dark as a date. Like that lady. That's a white lady. So that's what she used to look like. and she's getting her boobs bigger and bigger. She wants them bigger. And so, look, she keeps getting... That's a little too far, maybe. Maybe. Wow, that's her? That's her. So what did she do via intense use of tanning injections?

1:28:03Yeah, so she's the ultimate Melana tan hero. Wow. I mean, that lady got, like, Cameroon dark. Like, look at that photo again. Go back to that video. like that's crazy that is crazy that's crazy i don't know maybe you're in australia it works for you uh maybe well it would right it would protect because it is melanin but obviously she's got she's got other things going on like you yeah at some point you might might might have too much mel so here's the funny thing about melanin as well like so it's made by our melanocytes which are what can become melanoma if they get screwed up. And those are in the very bottom of the epidermis, the outer layer of the skin.

1:28:50And it's an incredibly good absorber of UV, better than anything we've come up with. It's almost perfect at it. But when your skin gets hit with sunlight, that melanin that's just been produced is at the bottom of the epidermis where the melanocytes are. So it has to migrate to the surface and then it kind of acts like little umbrellas. It will cover the nucleus of the cell and protect it. So you get these little umbrellas, a line of umbrellas on the very top of your epidermis. But it has to migrate up because of sunlight. If melanin is lower in your skin, then it's going to absorb all that radiation farther down.

1:29:30And actually, it can cause more free radicals deeper in the skin. And what would cause it to be lower? So it starts lower. Right. And it only goes up in response to sunlight. Oh. So if you're never ever in the sun and you suddenly go out and get hit by a bunch of sunlight, your melon is going to be down too low and can actually create – it can exacerbate the problem. So this lady might be exacerbating the problem if she's just getting the melanin that way. Yeah. I don't know because I don't know about this specifically. But you probably – yeah. You don't want to just be like messing around with melanin like to the extent that she is.

1:30:10Oh, boy. That's interesting. Because, like, the melanotan stuff, I have heard about it before, and I never really looked into it. But the idea kind of makes sense, that if you can make your body produce more melanin, that would protect itself. But I didn't realize that it has to be melanin from sun exposure. You want it in the right place. Yeah. Could both things work? Could you do it that way and with sun exposure, increase both? And would it give some sort of a benefit to have a higher level of melanin that could eventually get to the surface of the skin? Does that make any sense? You're above my pay grade now.

1:30:50I think you might be above everybody's pay grade. I don't know if anyone has looked at that. It seems like something to look into, though, if we know that there's a benefit to having melanin. Yeah, it would be interesting. But I think this stuff's new enough that there probably hasn't been a ton of research on it. So what does a pale person do? What does the old pasty white do? Yeah. So full pasty white, like really pale? Yeah. I have a friend. My daughter said, he's white. And I said she was really little. And I go, yeah. She goes, no, no, no. He's white like paper. So if you're white like paper.

1:31:24He's from England. Yeah. You do have to be really careful. You're not going to tan that much. You just don't make that much melanin. Can that change over time? Can they like slowly expose themselves to the sunlight like five minutes a day and just ramp it up? It depends on your genetics. If you're like a full-on ginger, like true redhead, then you have a type of melanin called pheomelanin, not eumelanin, which is what everybody else has. And pheomelanin just does not do a good job absorbing sunlight successfully. Oh, no. So there's no hope for gingers? There's no hope for gingers in terms of sun exposure.

1:32:05Damn. The hope is just, you know, avoid that midday sun that's high in UV. Get the morning and like the sunrise and sunset stuff that doesn't have the UV in it. Okay. So they can benefit from sun exposure, but they can't have like full-on outdoor sun exposure. Yeah. They're the ones who need to be really careful. So for those people, sunscreen is recommended. Yeah. Or just cover up even, I think. better, you know? How many other people are working on this stuff? And is everybody sort of in agreement with the data, the people that are examining it? I mean, there's a ton of science coming out, but it's early days for sure.

1:32:48Doesn't it seem crazy that sun and our reaction to sun is unknown or at least poorly studied? Yeah, yeah. But yeah, but it's amazing how many things in medicine, you know, you dive into the research and you dig down a little and you realize that we're just kind of guessing still on many levels. Like it's early days for a lot of this stuff. Well, certainly for like stuff that they use for antidepressants. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sun exposure is competitive with antidepressants in terms of lifting depression. Isn't that nuts? And you know what's way better? Exercise. Yeah. Many times better than any known antidepressants, regular exercise.

1:33:36I mean, exercise is number one for everything across the board. Ginger people with melat, the peptide here. I'm seeing a few posts about it changing their hair color. Interesting. And this one says permanently. What? Yeah. Click on that. Well, this is, I guess this just takes it to the Reddit. It's just going to show a YouTube video here, but there's multiple. Change his hair color. Other posts about it. Whoa. And there's, I was just seeing. What if that would work with people that are old that have like white hair? I wonder what that would do. This one here, like a melatonin 2 page says like how it can affect hair color.

1:34:12No. I read through it real quick. This is not the best website. Isn't it weird that women with red hair are hot and men with red hair are not? It's very weird because women with red hair are considered very attractive. Yeah, this one's, this guy's got a spray tan. Okay. But the people that take it, that one guy, is he like a one of one where it changed his hair color? So that, like I said, so this website. Click on the video. Let's watch it for a couple seconds. See what this guy's showing. So this is him before and this is him now. His eyebrow and his beard color has changed. Also, we clicked on the, this might not even be him.

1:34:54He could be reporting the video about someone else too.

1:34:59It looks pretty good. Yeah. Gray? I actually used to be ginger. Now, I was bullied a lot as a kid because I was ginger, I was weird, and I was chubby. That's the winning trio for being backshens from this. Going through a lot of changes, up here, down there, you know, the stuff that happens during puberty. So I didn't immediately notice that my hair had gotten much darker. it was actually other people asking me what the hell I had done to my hairline, you know. On this picture, it's probably much clearer. That's a picture of me and my brother. We have the same genetics in regards of skin color and the color of our hair.

1:35:40And as you can see, my hair is now completely different from his. We used to have the same skin and the same hair, especially the color. Now, this is only from using one vial of melanotan 2 in the span of a year, even more than a year. and it was at low dosages but with our genetics of big tall white ginger Belgian gingers it completely changed the color of my hair and my skin and the effects were very strong so the effects are permanent so he still has dark hair but what's interesting is that in the beginning he had gray hair it seems older obviously right right but he had gray he was showing and his hair is not gray anymore.

1:36:22Either. Right. I mean, gray, yeah. Gray and ginger. Gray is a loss of melanin. Like, melanin is what makes your hair dark as well as your skin dark. So he's resupplied his melanin for his hair as well, it seems like. That seems kind of nuts. He said one vial for a year? Oh, he's done even all over a year. Right. So for a year. So his skin has gotten pale again, but his hair is permanently dark. So that's what he used to look like. He had red hair. is he had a red beard and he had gray hair. His hair had gone gray and now his hair is dark. I gotta know if this guy's full of shit. Yeah, that's again, it's like there's only one person saying that.

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1:37:32Rules and restrictions apply. But that's crazy. But it is, yeah. Melanin is the pigment for all of it. Put that in. Does melatonin, how does it say it? How do you say it? Melanotan. Melanotan? Does melanotan have an effect on hair color put that into perplexity see what they say What does it say?

1:37:56Because I know a lot of people with gray hair that bums them out and they dye it and shit And that can't be good for you putting fucking dye in your hair. I know you know I'm stuck with the gray hair. I think well mine would be great if I had hair. It's all gray in my beard now It's Graham. I'm I'm gonna try it. I want to try some melotan and Let's see if I get dangerous boners. Melanotan does not have good human evidence of changing scalp or body hair color. Its main effect is on skin tanning and freckling, not on turning hair darker or lighter. But how's that guy? Maybe he's like just a weird case.

1:38:34Yeah, it's got to be a hormone dependent. What about the lady with the giant boobs? She had dark hair too. She's saying, when I was looking for her thing, it said she went through a permanent tanning process. So I don't know if she would have been taking extreme dosages. She'll show her Instagram account is a mess. If it's even hers, it's the one that Google showed me. What's the erection connection? I don't understand how, you know, making more melanin gives you a boner. What's the melanotan erection connection? I have heard that, though. Actually, Brigham from Ways to Well, the local wellness clinic, was telling me about that, that some people have crazy erections because of melanotan.

1:39:16Yeah, like what? How? Don't get that. And some people don't. Like that one guy that had taken it, he said it didn't affect him that way. But maybe he's broken.

1:39:29Does it say anything about melanotan causes boners? Okay. It can increase libido and trigger erections in some men, but it's not approved for. Well, I know it's not approved. How does it affect it? Stimulates melanocortin receptors in the brain, which are involved in sexual arousal and erection control, not just tanning. Controlled tiles, controlled trot. Jeez, I can't talk today. Subcutaneous melanotan 2 caused erections in most men with erectile dysfunction, often without sexual stimulation. Same studies found increased sexual desire in a majority of doses compared with placebo. Hmm. Interesting.

1:40:16I wonder what the connection is. It's the melanocortin. Like you said, the MC, what was it, MC4R up there? Mm-hmm. So, yeah, MC1R is the gene that determines whether you've got the red hair or not. Look at this. Common side effects were yawning. Nausea, yawning, and stretching, flushing with decreased appetite. Some participants had severe nausea at higher dosage. Yawning and sexual desire is an interesting combination. Yeah, that's weird. Yeah, I'm really horny, but I'm too tired of doing anything about it. hypoactive sexual desire for premenopausal women. Interesting. Interesting. Also shows erectogenic, I like that word, erectogenic effects in men with ED, including those who fail PDE5 inhibitors.

1:41:15What is a PDE5 inhibitor? Interesting. Someone out there with gray hair should give it a go. Find out. Find out what's up. Doesn't sound like, other than dealing with boners, doesn't seem like there's any real problems. I keep going back to this you getting attacked thing. And I don't understand how someone could attack you with the data that you're showing. Because, like, you're not making any dangerous or, you know, any claims or any – you're not advising people to do anything that's reckless. Yeah, no. I mean I purposefully have sort of – well, I really haven't – I basically tell people to figure it out for themselves, right?

1:42:04But it's only small amounts of sun exposure that seem to be necessary to get most of the benefits. It's like the jump isn't going from zero to some. You don't need it a lot. Nobody really needs a lot. Unless you have really dark skin, then you can probably get away with a lot. So, yeah, just a little bit of sun exposure doesn't seem like a crazy recommendation. But it's just because the messaging has been sort of so extreme and unyielding. Like, they've worked for so hard to sort of scare people away from any sun exposure that I think backing that up a little bit is sort of uncomfortable, you know?

1:42:48I understand. But, I mean, isn't history filled with new discoveries and changing courses? Yeah, and I think it'll change. But it's going to be one funeral at a time. and it's going to be ugly all the way. When you do this kind of work, have you discovered any other things that people thought were unhealthy that turned out to actually probably be good for you, at least if used correctly? Yeah, that's a good question. So the metaphor that I think we're all familiar with and that I think maps pretty perfectly here is diet and fat, right? Like 25 years ago, Gary Taubes does that article in the New York Times Magazine, What If Fat Doesn't Make You Fat?

1:43:34And we were still back in that era of carbs, cut all the fat out of your diet, carbs are good for you. Margarine, right? The margarine era. The top experts got it 100 % wrong back then. And when they got called on it by Taubes and others, Nina Teicholz, you guys have had Nina on. I've had Taubes on as well. Oh, yeah, okay. Okay. You know, they fought hard and they were totally wrong. And we now, you know, we flipped, but it took a long time. And, you know, there was a little blood in the water during that process. Oh, yeah. I was in the early days of that and people were just warning me about my cholesterol.

1:44:16What about your cholesterol? What's really interesting is during the heart of that, when I eat a lot of meat, my diet's mostly meat. And I went to the doctor and I got all my levels checked. And he said, are you on some anti-cholesterol medication? And I said, no. Why? And he goes, you have very low cholesterol. Interesting. It's weird. And I go, dude, if you saw my diet, my diet's like mostly meat and eggs and bacon. That's like a giant percentage of my diet. I thought that was really interesting. I think, I mean, yeah, I think the evidence is pretty good. Like for keto, I think it's pretty strong.

1:44:54Saladino, I think, is pretty much spot on on a lot of this stuff. But so, yeah, so that, like, the ultimate experts all said that was going to kill you. Right. You know, Atkins back in the day, and they were all completely wrong. So there's a, you know, there's a long track record of the pros being wrong, I think, on a lot of things. But that's a really good example. And people can wrap their heads around that one because we now, I think a lot of people understand that low carb really works well for them. I mean, they completely flipped the food pyramid. Right, which was a beautiful thing to do.

1:45:27And I can't believe it happened so fast. Yeah. Well, also with very little pushback. It's kind of interesting. Super. Because the evidence had already compounded to the fact that, listen, for sure, margarine is not a good thing. It's not a good substitute. But also that all these healthy fats that you're getting from milk, that you're getting from eggs, eggs in particular. We've been told eggs are bad for you, the cholesterol on eggs. Eggs, you could live off just eggs. Yeah, probably the perfect food. Yeah. Like, eggs are fantastic. I always tell my friends that are vegans, I was like, listen, man, just get some chickens, and they're your pets, and they give you free food.

1:46:02It's like I have 16 chickens now, and I get eggs every day, and these chickens are pets. Like, I go, hey, ladies. I feed them. I throw the worms down. They're not afraid of me. They listen to me. When I open the door, they come running out, and they wander around the yard. It's like a great relationship. You get free food. You take care of them. You feed them. And they eat all the bugs in your yard. And you get these delicious, healthy eggs from them. With those beautiful orange yolks. Yeah. So if you're worried about if it's an ethical thing, you don't want animal cruelty and good for you, that's a wonderful way to live.

1:46:40But you are sacrificing your health by not eating pasture-raised eggs. Just get the real ones, not the bullshit ones, the real ones. Unfortunately, they're tricking people now. Some companies have been exposed for feeding their chickens turmeric. They feed them curcumin and turmeric because it makes their eggs a darker, more attractive yolk. I know, right? It's so screwy, so bizarrely backwards. It is, but isn't turmeric good for you? And wouldn't turmeric that you're getting from those eggs also be good for you? Yeah, it can't hurt. Right? So it's not like they're getting them food dye. You know what I mean?

1:47:26So it's like, yeah, you're getting these darker eggs because people like that, and the darker eggs come from turmeric, but still, you're getting turmeric then, aren't you? Isn't that how it works? I mean, that's fine. But I think the chicken – I think, like, it's the bugs that sometimes help turn them on. Yeah, we get eggs from our neighbor. Like in Vermont, everybody, right? There's chickens, like, running around the road everywhere. And, yeah, they're delicious. Yeah, you can tell that they're getting it from the bugs and the greens and – yeah. And it's super healthy. I mean, but that color of things is also why they dye farm-raised salmon, which is really gross.

1:48:07Right. And salmon are getting that from bugs in particular. Yeah, exactly. Little arthropods. Mm-hmm. Yeah, like miniature shrimp kind of. Yeah, that's why they have that wonderful-looking pink skin, that orangey pink skin. So in that case, the dye is maybe a little more suspect. Yeah, well, the dye is very suspect because it's like, you know, these farm-raised salmon, they have pale skin because they're eating bullshit. Yeah. You know? Yeah. Are there any other things that you've stumbled across that turned out to be good for you that people were averse to? I'm still curious about alcohol. You know how everything is flipped on alcohol?

1:48:43Like, first it was like, a drink or two a day is good for you, and then suddenly they flipped like a year or two ago and say, any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I looked into those studies, and it seems like the takeaway really should have been, you know, moderate drinking doesn't do much of anything to you. Like, maybe it is slightly good for you or slightly bad for you, But for like a drink a day or like one to two a day, it didn't seem to have a whole lot of impact on mortality at all. And also probably reduces a little bit of stress, relieves a little bit of social anxiety. And that alone is really beneficial.

1:49:27Like how do you feel? Like are you happy or are you stressed out? Sometimes a drink or two, you're like, ah, fuck it. We're fine. Everything's good. Like that alone has benefits, like what it does to your mood, that it's a social lubricant. It'll allow you to like maybe laugh a little bit more, have a little bit more fun. Totally, which is why I can't give it up. Like that social environment is a really nice environment to be in. And if, you know, a couple beers helps make that happen, it's a good thing. I gave it up for about eight months. I completely – problem is I own a comedy club and I was there a lot.

1:50:02And so everybody's like, have a drink, have a drink, let's do shots. And the next thing you know, I was in the gym the next day feeling like shit. I got tired of doing that to myself. And so I said, I'm just going to stop drinking. Not because I'm an alcoholic. It wasn't hard to stop. It was super easy. I just stopped. And then I started feeling way better. I was like, God, why was I drinking for so long? It was just so bad. And then I was at dinner with my wife, had a margarita like eight months later. I'm like, let's have a drink. She wasn't drinking either. I'm like, let's have a drink. I'm like, this is nice.

1:50:30I like it. So now I limit myself. I just, I won't have more than like two drinks. Two drinks is kind of my math. But two drinks is right. Two drinks is like, wee. As long as you don't have to drive, you're not going anywhere. You know, if I go to the club, I'm there for hours. Yeah. Completely sober after it's all over. It's like I wake up in the morning. I don't feel like shit. Doesn't seem to be affecting my workouts. However, if you wear a Whoop or an Oura Ring or one of those tracking devices, you will notice in your sleep, in your recovery. You're not sleeping as well. You don't sleep as well.

1:51:03You don't get the same deep sleep. I can tell. Yeah, just one glass of wine can fuck you up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And for me, that hit in middle age. Like, before that wasn't a problem. But now, yeah, like two drinks. Two does seem to be the cutoff where, you know, life functions normally still. Yeah. But, yeah, the sleep's not as restorative somehow. Somehow. But I wonder if it's the timing of when you're drinking. So I wonder if you have, like, a glass of wine at dinner at, like, 6 o 'clock, but you don't go to bed until midnight. I wonder if then your body has a chance to process it and then you're okay.

1:51:39Italian style, right? I feel like the Mediterranean lifestyle, they got this pretty much nailed down like 2 ,000 years ago. Right. It seems to work pretty well. Which also brings us back to food, right? Because the way they eat, it's so interesting how thin they are, and yet they eat mostly carbs. I know. I know. Something's different there. A lot's different, and we know what it is now. We know that there's a lot of additives and preservatives, and it's also like they don't use glyphosate. And they have heirloom wheat, so they have wheat that hasn't been optimized to have a higher yield, so it doesn't have as much complex wheat glutens.

1:52:16And there's a lot of issues with our food, unfortunately. And if you eat American bread, you know, the bromine, all the different additives, all the shit that we put in our food, that's so disturbing. Whenever I go to Italy, I'm so angry that when I come back home, I can't have food like this. Like you have to seek it out. You have to go to like certain restaurants that only use like Italian flour. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, you look at those Mediterranean cultures and it just works for them. And yeah, like you say, you can't explain it in terms of like macronutrients or anything like that. Like it's something – there's something like synergistic about that lifestyle.

1:52:58I do actually think light is part of it, too. Like, they got great light there. Yep. They have great light, especially like Amalfi Coast, those people. Yeah. But the other thing is also less stress. They're not as career focused. They're more family oriented, very tight knit family groups. They eat dinner together. There's a lot of laughing, a lot of drinking wine. A lot of them smoke cigarettes. You go over there like cigarettes never went out of style over there. They're all smoking cigarettes. And you're like, how are you guys so fucking healthy? This is weird. Yeah. It is. Yeah. It'll be interesting on cigarettes if it turns out that in a certain context, they're not that damaging.

1:53:36And then out of that context, they're super damaging. I have heard that with polyphenols. I've heard that. And this is, I think, controversial as well. But it's cigarettes taken along with olive oil and that a lot of these people have high olive oil rich diets. in that cigarettes along with olive oil, that the olive oil tends to balance out whatever damage that the cigarettes are doing. That is super interesting. Yeah, which kind of makes sense. And it's going to be like everything is going to be something like that. Yeah. It's bad in a certain context and then it seems to have been okay for people in a different context.

1:54:15Yeah, yeah. Are there any other things that you've noticed? Like I know you've done work on chocolate, right? A lot of work on chocolate. Yeah, my first sort of big magazine story, Outside Magazine, sent me to the Amazon on this crazy hunt with this German guy. It was basically Apocalypse Now with chocolate. This German guy was going upriver into the Amazon to try to find this wild cacao, like to work with some of the indigenous groups to harvest wild cacao and make the world's first wild chocolate. So I went with him. Crazy, crazy trip. But yeah, I sort of fell in love with cacao on that trip.

1:54:58But it was like we landed. We took a small plane and we were going to land on this river and meet a canoe that was going to take us upriver to meet with these indigenous groups. So we found a runway. Right. This is in the Bolivian Amazon. I've been in the Amazon all of like four minutes. Right. The plane drops us off on this flooded runway where like it was a crazy landing. We hop out of the plane. I'm glad to be alive. um And then these four guys with guns come out of this little cabin and we're like, this is actually a landing strip that our Colombian boss owns. And we're guarding it for him.

1:55:36And what are you two white dudes doing here? So like all the cocaine traffic comes through this part of the Amazon. Whoa. And we had just done what people actually have been killed for, which is, you know, like if a couple of white guys drop in there, they assume you're like the EA or something. Right. Right. So they were super suspicious. And, you know, they were speaking Spanish, so I was, like, catching every fourth word or something. I'm like, this can't be good because of the guns. But anyway, the guy I was with, the German guy, he negotiated with them. And finally they're like, okay, just give us a landing fee.

1:56:08So we're like, sure. But, yeah, so that was the beginning of my chocolate journey. So what part of the Amazon were you? Bolivia. Which, you know, Bolivia you think of, like, mountains, La Paz. But they have these lowlands, which are like straight up like tropical rainforest. It's called the Benny. And it's like truly lawless area, like huge swaths of jungle, a bunch of cattle ranching as well. And all the drug traffic comes through there from the Andes. And you went there just as a journalist? Yeah. So this guy, this German guy, he'd been living there for 20 years. And he was trying to get this cacao.

1:56:49And he's like, yeah, I'm going to go meet with these groups. Do you want to come? And Outside had just come to me, and they'd like something else I'd written. And they're like, hey, we're Outside Magazine. What's the freakiest thing you ever wanted to do? We'll send you there. And I had a little kid at the time. So I was like, I'm not going to be going off a 200-foot waterfall and kayak for you guys. But then this Heart of Dark Chocolate thing came up. And I was like, I could do that. I could be like the comic guy for them. So it was this like ridiculous journey where like everything went wrong.

1:57:23But we did get some really good chocolate at the end of it. So what is the benefit of wild cacao? It tastes really, really good, like better than the industrial varieties of cacao that most chocolates made with. And it's just like kind of a cool story. And it can be used to support those indigenous groups so that the forest doesn't get cut down and turned into more like cattle ranch. because cacao grows in the understory of the rainforest. So it's kind of a way to monetize the full rainforest. And keep the canopy intact. Exactly. What is the benefits of cacao health-wise? It's right there with coffee.

1:58:04Tons of polyphenols, a little bit of caffeine. It seems to be anti-inflammatory, gives you a little boost, makes you happy. for some of the same reasons and maybe some different ones as well. And when you say it tastes better, like in what way? Like when you try it? A lot more like aromatics and less bitterness. Like basically what happened with cacao is when it became a global product, the Europeans selected varieties that were high-yielding. Same thing that happened with tomatoes and everything else. They were high-yielding, but they lost some of like the great aromatic qualities that like the old Maya cacao had had.

1:58:44And that's what gets grown all over the world. Most cacao comes from Africa now. And it's more bitter, less interesting, but way cheaper. So then there was this movement that started like 10, 15 years ago of people trying to go back to Latin America to find the like ancient heirloom varieties that had this great flavor and make like better chocolate than had ever been made before. Sort of the most ancient is the stuff in the Amazon, which is where cacao originated, still growing wild. So it's kind of cool if you can go back to the primordial days and make chocolate. I mean, the example of tomatoes is a perfect example because heirloom tomatoes are sensational.

1:59:28They're so delicious. So much better. They're so much better. And then you have one of those bullshit McDonald's tomatoes that looks like a piece of paper. Yeah. Is that cacao? That's what it looks like? Yeah. So it's these pods, and you open up the pod. It's kind of like the size of a little Nerf football or something. Oh, wow. Yeah. I had no idea. And so chocolate is made from the seeds inside. You've got to ferment them and then roast them, and then you grind them into chocolate. Where can one get heirloom chocolate made from this ancient cacao? Is there a company? Yeah. So the place I send people is Caputo's, which is an online site.

2:00:07They're like the main importer of specialty chocolate. There they are. Is that the people? Yeah. So Caputo's has most of the great wild cacaos available on their website. It's just like retail. Caputo's. So is it caputo's.com? Yeah. It's from Salt Lake City? Yeah. They've got a cool shop in Salt Lake. Oh. Interesting. Preserve Bolivian rainforests. Yeah. All right. Ritual chocolate. Yeah, I've heard of people like ritual cacao ceremonies. I'm like, what are you doing? What are you doing?

2:00:46That's a gringo thing. Everyone thinks it goes back to some like we're referencing some ancient Maya ceremony. Of course it is. It was a white dude in Guatemala named Keith. Look at these people. Yeah, there you go. Look at these people. It's kind of like ayahuasca with training wheels. They do cacao. But like what can come out of a ritual where you take cacao? I mean, you know, same thing that can come out of a ritual where you do anything else. Like you're focusing, you know, it's a mindfulness. You get a little, you know, you get a little boost from the cacao. But not much. Yeah. It's more about the ritual.

2:01:24Why is cacao, what is a cacao ceremony? Why are they suddenly showing up all over L.A.? Yeah, you can answer that one on your own. So, I mean, Jamie, if you can call up Keith's Cacao. There's this guy named Keith. I think he died recently. He's like the classic gringo guru with a big white beard who would have people in Guatemala. And he's just invented this cacao ceremony thing. Oh, white people. But he's a - Damn it, white people. And then everyone else sort of took it from him. There he is. Well, he looks like the type of guy. Look at him. Big old fucking dirty pot of cacao. He's dunking in a costume.

2:01:58So he started it.

2:02:04Okay. Poor Keith. These silly people. So, but there's like antioxidants in it. Like there's other... A ton, yeah. It's good for you. It's totally good for you. And yeah, it gets your heart beating a little faster. There's some happy drugs in there. It's got a tiny bit of cannabinoids in it. But, and it tastes great. So, you know, what's not to like? Anything else? Any other foods or substances or different things that you found out that were beneficial? Well, how do you feel about oysters? I wrote a book about oysters, too. I eat them all the time. Are you a fan? Yeah, I like them. Are they okay?

2:02:45I mean, they're great. But? There's no but. They're great. But I think we haven't figured out why. You're eating like a little living being. Right. So I think there's some chi factor there where the reason people get so excited and feel so good when they eat oysters it's not because of like the nutrients. It's like there's something else that's in there, you know? Well, isn't there zinc in oysters? There's definitely zinc. And they're supposed to have an aphrodisiac effect, right? Yeah. So I think that aphrodisiac thing is like, it's more about the chi, like this living force that you're ingesting.

2:03:19This sounds like hippie talk, sir. It does sound a little, you know, like chi's going to get justified scientifically at some point. You think? Yeah. So you think you're getting – what's interesting, there's another friend of mine made an argument for vegans to eat shellfish. He said, like, if you're eating clams and oysters, they're so primitive. They're more primitive than plants. He said there's more evidence that plants are conscious than there is that these shellfish are conscious. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, plants are pretty damn smart. Yeah, weirdly so. Yeah. And mussels and clams and oysters, they're not.

2:04:00They're sort of alive, but they don't feel pain, and they just move. And because they move, they open and close, we've decided that they're animals. And with oysters, that's literally the only thing they can do. Clams at least can dig down. They get the tongue. Oysters, they're stuck. They just open and close. There's not a whole lot going on there for sure. Right, but healthy for you. Yeah. Unless you get a bad batch and then you die. They are definitely a source of food poisoning. Yeah, I've heard of people dying. Yeah, yeah. They kill a few people every year. You know, it's interesting. My wife got food poisoning from oysters once when we were on vacation.

2:04:38We were in Hawaii, and she ate oysters. And somehow or another, she got it, and I didn't. But then my daughter, who didn't eat oysters, also got the food poisoning. Because food poisoning apparently can spread through the air. Interesting. And so it's contagious. Yeah. I guess if you're like ralping hard enough, you're flowing it through the air. I guess. But it was really weird. And that's how we found out that food poisoning is contagious. And that's one of the reasons why they isolate people when they're on boats when they have food poisoning. Yeah. Because those people could actually spread whatever that is through the air.

2:05:14Fucking weird. Yeah. Yeah. But I do love oysters, but I do get nervous when I eat them. because every now and then you hear like, Houston man dies from food poisoning from oysters. Cold water. Cold water is your friend. It says food poisoning itself is not directly contagious as it refers to an illness caused by eating or drinking contaminated food. However, the specific viruses or bacteria responsible for the contamination are highly contagious and can easily spread from person to person through poor hygiene or shared surfaces. So it's contagious. So the viruses that come from food poisoning are contagious.

2:05:50It's not like through the air. Oh, surface contact. Is that what it is? Yeah. Oh, I see. So coughing and stuff, injecting. Yeah. So you may be interested. The airborne confusion. The confuse, show more? Confuse food poisoning with highly contagious stomach bugs like norovirus. Where the viruses are not airborne, they're highly contagious, can spread through the air in tiny droplets when someone vomits. There it is. leading to contaminated surfaces or breathing in aerosolized particles. So that's what it is. It's the coughs. Yeah. Okay. I think we covered it. You think? Yeah. I think you're going to get a lot of interesting responses.

2:06:37Guess what? I don't read them. So good luck to all those haters shouting into the void. I've long suspected that sun exposure is probably good for you. and then it's really just a matter of how much and mitigating the damage that you could get if you get burnt. Turns out you're right. Yeah. It just doesn't make sense that your body produces vitamin D through it. It makes you feel so good, and yet somehow or another it's bad. I think it's, like many things, very nuanced, and so I'm really happy that you did so much work on it. Thanks. And I'm happy you rode the storm, too. Well, the storm's just coming.

2:07:13I'm sure, especially after this show. but thank you very much and tell everybody where your book is and how they can get it yeah so whatever their favorite online place In Defense of Sunlight Amazon anywhere else and did you do an audio version of it yeah they let me read it yes we'll see if that was good news or not nice I love it when someone reads their own book it's very important I think me too yeah alright well thank you very much thank you bye everyone

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