#2545 - Jesse Michels

29:13We don't have the words to describe these complex geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and changing. Also, they're conscious. Also, they seem to be made out of light. Yeah, right. Also, they seem to be, they look like things that you might have seen in like ancient Egyptian artwork. And there's a lot of like strange parallels to ancient religious art and ancient like sacred art and sacred geometry. There's some weirdness to it. It's like these people, like Alex Gray, for instance, like a modern day version of that. He's like captured these things and you look at it and anybody that's taken any tryptamines, you look at his stuff and you go, oh, I've seen that.

29:52You're like, I'm tripping. seen something like that. There's something there. He knows what this is, and he's done a fantastic job of relaying it. And if he lived thousands of years ago, and we looked at his art, and he'd probably be thought of as some sort of a prophet who had these very bizarre abilities to communicate with whatever it is, the afterlife, the great beyond, the other dimensions, whatever it is. He can encapsulate it and bring some of it back so you can get a look at it. Yeah, he's actually a counterpoint to what we just said. Like he actually does bring that back. And you look at his art and you're like, oh, my God.

30:28And it's very rare if you think about it. Like think about how long people have been tripping and how this one guy is sort of universally known as being the absolute best at capturing it. It's wild. And I feel like we're on the precipice. Yeah, I know you had Andrew Gallimore on. He wrote a great book called Alien Information Theory. And he, you know, just as, you know, astronauts go into deep space and aquanauts go into the deep sea, it's, you know, psychonauts are systematically going into the DMT realm with this slow intravenous DMT trip that he's administering. And they're mapping what they see in a more systematic way because they say things like, oh, I'll see literally platonic objects.

31:13A platonic object is something that is beyond 3D. It's like a tesseract. You literally can't visualize a tesseract. You can just see the shadow of a tesseract because it's too high dimensional for us to conceive of. And so they'll come back and they're mapping these things out. And that's just – I'm so excited to see what we find. They're mapping out very familiar entities where they have like a specific number of entities that everyone has encountered. That's just, yeah, it's fascinating. And it's like, yeah, at what point do we then just start to say is that some weird interior fabric of space time that we're just haven't traversed or don't fully understand?

31:53Right. What is it? What the fuck is it? It's really interesting because these people, what fascinates me the most in terms of the UFC, UFO experience, the UAP experience, is the people that had the experiences before there was an archetype. Before there was this iconic vision of what they looked like, like Betty and Barney Hill, for example. That's my favorite UFO abduction story. Because there was nothing in the zeitgeist that they could draw from where they could say, oh, I know what that is. I've seen that before. Well, Outer Limits was actually a popular CBS TV show that premiered 11 days before their experience.

32:39I'm not taking away from their experience. I think they experienced something real. Which episode was it? It was the first episode of Outer Limits and the aliens in Outer Limits, the eyes wrap around their heads in a way that's similar to what they described. Let's see what that looks like. Find out episode one of Outer Limits. That's interesting. I did not know that. Yeah. So what year was that? That was, I think, 1962. Whoa. How creepy looking. Ew. But it's so Betty and Barney Hill also described the aliens looking like Nazis at one point. Whoa. Barney says that which is really trippy. So he said they look like at one point.

33:17Yeah Cuz you can actually get the audio of the Betty and Barney Hill. Yeah, we've listened a part of it But it's mostly this I'm like yelling. That's the image. Look at the image. Is that the image of what they saw? Is that a drawing? Because God that looks exactly the outer limits that might have got mind fucked by TV But then again, it's like maybe whatever the fuck it is manifests itself as something that's familiar to you. Yeah, or maybe it has control, like dominion over sort of everything, and they're seeding themselves in through media. It's so hard to say. So that's a sculpture of the being Betty and Barney Hill encounter.

33:55My God, that looks a lot like the fucking Outer Limits thing. There you go. Well, it's like that's the question. It's like what – is that her holding it? Did she make it herself? Interesting. Boy, that looks a lot like the Outer Limits thing. The question is like if consciousness is rendering something and something from somewhere else, something that you normally can access is exchanging information with you in some sort of a strange way and it's doing it while you're in a semi-conscious state, right? would it try to represent itself as something that's familiar i mean maybe it's just like our primitive visual ability our primitive all of our senses which are very crude and primate driven they're basically like your eyes are in the front of your head because you're a predator and you're basically like a tribal territorial ape that has really kind of grown out of its genetics.

35:10You're in some new state. So you're communicating with something that is beyond your comprehension. And so it's like instead of showing myself as a tesseract, instead of showing – you know what I mean? Yeah. Like instead of showing myself as geometric patterns that are constantly morphing and made out of light, I don't think this monkey's going to be able to handle this. These silly humans, I'm going to have to show myself as something that was a television character. And that's why when Betty's drawing that, maybe she doesn't even realize that it looks a lot like what she saw on TV. Totally. And I think— Clarify something maybe?

35:49Sure. I just feel like I misunderstood it. Their event happened in 1961. 1961 that episode aired in 1964, but it was 12 days Before they had their hypnotic regression. Got it. Okay. So their hypnotic regression was that long afterwards? Three years to them two and a half. Huh? That's interesting. So when did they start describing an experience? Was it pre hypnotic? What what prompted them to have a hypnotic regression? I believe she came home and she had, I think, some blood on her. And they had a lot of missing time. They had like five hours of missing time. They were on a road trip. Right. And it was back to their place, I think, in Vermont.

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37:15Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. That changes things a little bit. But also, there's a problem there is that human memory sucks. It does. Memory sucks. And if you have a memory of a very traumatic experience that's three years ago and then also you just watched Outer Limits, then things get squirrely. Because, like, if you're communicating with something and it's literally telepathically engaging with you and it can read your mind and it's telling you to calm down, it's got you on a spaceship, like, how much of that do you – especially whatever happened to you, it somehow or another rendered your memory out?

38:11Like you can't really remember it. So you're hypnotically accessing this memory. And then you also have this like recent experience of watching a television show. Totally. But yeah, you're paralyzed. There's often missing time. And so at that point, you have to say these beings have total control over your entire reality. And so it's hard to say exactly what happened. According to the wiki I got that this happened in November of 61 for 10 days or 10 days after she started having dreams or one of the two, 10 days after the alleged encounter, she began having dreams. And then a year later at church, they ran into a captain of the Air Force.

38:54And then some hypnosis discussion started. But then two years later is when those sessions happened. So there's not a lot of the timeline at least according to the wiki is not really kept well here Right, so that's a long period of time listen to this Barney described the beings is generally similar to Betty's hypnotic Recollection he said the being stared into his eyes with a terrifying mesmerizing effect under hypnosis Barney said oh those eyes They're in my brain they're there in my brain from his first hypnotic session I was told to close my eyes because I saw two eyes coming close to mine, and I felt like the eyes had pushed into my eyes.

39:35All I see are these eyes. I'm not even afraid that they're not connected to a body. They're just there. They're just up close to me, pressing against my eyes. when Betty reported a conversation with the leader in English Barney said that he had heard them speaking in a mumbling language he did not understand Betty also mentioned this detail the few times they communicated with him Barney said it seemed to be thought transference at the time he was unfamiliar with the word telepathy that's interesting like he didn't know what the word telepathy was and the the concept of speaking through the mind wasn't even it wasn't even in pop culture yet totally and it's it's it's hard to debunk that something paranormal happened you know like it's these they seem like completely of sound mind and there's this missing time and then you have all these high up head honchos you know at air force i believe um this guy charles douglas jackson who was this head honcho um as well and kind of the pentagon came and visited them so i think it's clear that something happened and then what happened it's just hard to say it's it's really hard to say like who why is the air force talking to them that's that's the real question right well i think they had an interest you know project blue book was running at the time and it's clear now if you do deeper research that they knew more than they let on jalen heineck you know, later kind of apologized and admitted he played a part in the cover up.

41:12And so they were probably doing real research with abductees while they were kind of downplaying, you know, and rationalizing everything to the public. So Jamie just pulled something up. It says on November 23rd, 1962, the Hills attended a meeting at the parsonage of their church, where Captain Ben H. Sweat of the United States Air Force was a guest speaker. Having had an interest in hypnosis, the Hills approached Sweat privately and related their strange encounter. Sweat was particularly interested in the missing time of the Hills accounts. The Hills asked if he would hypnotize them to recover their memories, but Sweat declined and cautioned them against going to an amateur hypnotist such as himself.

41:56I wonder what the meeting was about that he was talking at. Right. That they just went to like... A meeting? Right. By hypnosis maybe, like just in general. Yeah, but he's like a self-proclaimed amateur hypnotist. Why would an amateur hypnotist have a meeting at a church about hypnotism? And especially like in 1962, I'd imagine a lot of people running churches were super skeptical about even that concept. And they might even thought it was like blasphemy or sorcery or something. Work of the devil. Yeah, something you're not supposed to be fucking with. What did this guy do? It's coming from his website.

42:33He's got a website? A testimony from him. Hmm. I read some of my poetry to a meeting at the rectory of the Unitarian Church in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. I wasn't a member of the church. Didn't know anyone there. Why does he have a donation link on his website? Well, this is for the Wayback Machine. Oh, I see. Okay. He was studying hypnosis, and they wanted to hear about it. Does seem a little awfully convenient. Kind of odd that someone was studying hypnosis. They had him read his poetry. It had nothing to do with the church at all. The craziest thing about this story is Betty told this famous UFO researcher from Sweden, this guy Klaus von, who actually has the largest UFO archive in the world in Sweden.

43:18She said that she saw a UFO crash later and she buried a little piece of it in her house in Portsmouth, New Hampshire. and so there might be a little piece of a ufo in her old house and if you live there go dig in your backyard and see well it's probably not there it's probably not experience it yeah yeah maybe i don't know your consciousness renders that's right this is kind of strange uh this those lines right there because this is the timeline here is weird because he did this in 62 and then he's saying he also came back in 63 and that's when the ufo stuff started so they started telling me about something that happened to them as they were driving home from Canada the night of 19 to 20 September 1961, a light in the sky seemed to follow them and then circled them and being stopped on the road and how they later realized that they had a three-hour gap in their memories.

44:19As they told their story, Barney's face kept twitching spasmodically on one side. I didn't like the looks of that. What? Whoa. The missing time is also a weird one because that also hadn't been something that was in the zeitgeist. Was that in the Outer Limits? Probably not. But yet that has become a part of the experience that all these abductees discuss. Absolutely. They discuss like all of a sudden they're back in their car and they're sitting on the side of the road and they're like, okay, what the fuck just happened? I was just telling Jamie before we were rolling. So 1977, Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, there are two missile security officers, two sergeants, a guy named Mario Woods and Michael Johnson.

45:08and Mario sees this UFO sort of, you know, circling the base and he flashes the little, you know, perimeter floodlights at this UFO and he thinks nothing of it. He goes back, you know, he and Michael are hanging out. I think four or five hours go by and there's a big alert and it's an inner zone and outer zone alert. So basically the security perimeter to a hydrogen bomb, a live thermonuclear weapon has been breached. and yeah and they get in their car and they go check it out because they there's always you know two-man rapid response teams they go check it out there is a what he describes as a blazing red orb the size of a walmart so a massive like a story that's the way he describes it it's a huge like storefront sized like city block sized uh uh uh ufo and then he says a little like like a black kind of like almost like a drone or emissary orb that's like the size of a golf cart comes out four beings hover towards them they black out they black in five and a half hours later eight miles away in newell or sorry next to a dam i think it's it's closer to newell um and uh it's eight miles off the base and uh they immediately get questioned by air force office of Special Investigations.

46:34And the Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent who was involved admits he was there for this debrief and admits that this happened. His name is Rick Doty. And I just so they were separated after that, Michael and Mario. I just introduced them for the reintroduced them for the first time. I found Michael. So Mario had been going on all these podcasts since the 90s being like, where's Mike? Like he has eidetic, picture perfect, Photographic memory you'd love him he's like the coolest guy and he remembers everything to a T that happened to him including his debrief He remembers the names of the people there It's so obvious something happened to him and did he always have that memory that ability?

47:15He always had that ability. He's clearly just very talented when it comes to memory and And he'd been looking for for Michael forever. He asked the FBI to find him he asked the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is the official Pentagon office, you know, around UFOs to find him. He hired, you know, private investigators. And this dude DM'd me on Instagram, shout out fan of the show, Jason Miller. And then we just got a recruiter to find Michael Johnson, because that was the one missing piece of the story. And they reconnected. And it was like the most emotional, they hadn't seen each other.

47:52They saw each other once, I think, two weeks after the abduction to like trade notes and draw pictures of what happened to them like the beings on the ship and you know i i think um yeah there you go yeah this is them all this time you never forget me which guy is which so michael johnson is black dude on the left mario woods on the right and which is the guy with the crazy memory mario's on the right that's mario michael honestly has a great memory too so these two guys do they have a similar story or is exact. Do they have variation? They have a very similar story. Not perfectly one-to-one, but they're very honest about the minor blind spots.

48:36He's crying. Doesn't come out tomorrow, but I thought I'd send it to Jamie. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Wow. When does that episode come out? This week. So in a few days. Oh, what a teaser. Nice. But um, it's it's crazy how similar the their memories are so like I've heard of this event and I've seen it rendered online like fake like some fake version of it people Call it the most convincing alien abduction ever because of Mario's memory. It's insane the level of recall and This is memory been tested to make sure these not delusional. I don't know if his memory has been tested But when you I mean, like, you know, I've known him for two and a half years and I interviewed him for the first time, I think, two and a half years ago ish.

49:27And I speak to him pretty regularly. And his memory is crazy. Like even in that period around like little things where it's like this restaurant, remember the waiter here and this and that. Like it just has a wild memory. Yeah. He has a very good memory. There's that actress. Do you know Mary Lou Henner? Do you know who she is? She was on that show Taxi. OK. And she has that very specific kind of memory. And it's super unusual where she can recall not just the day, but like she can tell you if you give her a date, what day it was and what happened that day. And like, you know, what was in the news and what was on television, like Mary Lou Henner.

50:05That's insane. Yeah. highly superior autobiographical memory a rare condition allowing her to vividly recall specific dates weather emotions and personal experiences for nearly every day of her life since childhood wow you know who else is i mean uh the inspiration for rain man kim peak similar thing you'd be like what was the weather like uh you know november 7th uh 1681 and it like that's like insane shit Like that. And often it occurs after a traumatic brain injury for whatever reason. That's weird. It is weird. And it points to maybe the receiver, the transmission theory of consciousness. Right.

50:45Like it rattled something loose. Exactly. Yeah. There's a lot of people that develop mathematical abilities after head injuries. Like people that have never been good at anything and all of a sudden they could do physics. Right. Like where does that come from? What is that? Or these nonverbal, often autistic children and the telepathy tapes. I know you had Kai Dickens on where they're very kind of disembodied. And, you know, it's kind of sometimes hard for them to navigate the world. But they just their knowledge, their ability to glean knowledge. It's like they're short circuiting our knowledge pathways.

51:21Like they'll know like certain Egyptian hieroglyphics without ever having learned about them in school. And they can read them. and they can read them and they meet up on this telepathic hill. It's like they have abilities that we don't, and they're actually in some ways more disembodied. And so it's like there's something about like we're ported into our bodies, but our senses, like when you gain a sense, you lose your former sense or something. And so they're disembodied. If you're in a VR system or whatever, you're not going to understand what's going on outside of it. But if you're this nonverbal autistic child who, again, other people might call them, you know, not like maladaptive for the world, you know, unable to navigate the world.

52:04They're actually geniuses on this whole other level. Like they can sort of short circuit the way we learn. Right. And they don't get in their own way the way we do. They don't. And there's no traditional neuroscientific model that explains that. You have to go into this sort of Tom Campbell area. Yeah. I've often wondered if maybe what we're seeing from nonverbal autistic people and just people on the spectrum in general is instead of it being like, instead of it being like the way we look at it is like, like you said, maladaptive, like that these people have an unfortunate situation that's happened to them.

52:39But maybe what we're looking at is an emerging type of consciousness. And like, if you think about what is wrong with the human race, well, you know, a lot of it has to do with ego and what we were talking about earlier, these territorial primate instincts, the desire to accumulate resources and the desire to dominate and to get status and all these different things that human beings are captured by. Well, these people aren't captured by those things at all. And if we want to get past where we are now, well, what better way than you introduce some new, whether it's natural selection or some random mutation or whatever it is, or maybe even some sort of environmental adaptation that allows them to become a different kind of person.

53:37Like maybe that is the future. It totally could be the future. And you watch or listen to the telepathy tapes and you're like, we're maladaptive. Like they are so heart centered. It's almost like they're living in the future. Yeah. If you look at, you know, if any of the UFO stuff points to a future modality of like how we learn, maybe this sort of intuition and telepathy sort of gets selected for and our sort of, you know, prefrontal cortex reasoning actually gets selected against. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either, but it's odd that it's emerging as a part of a, you know, much more so now because of, you know, various debatable factors, whether it's vaccines or environmental exposure to toxins or whatever.

54:23You have a much higher incidence of this taking place now as our society becomes more and more complex. And as we move closer and closer to this, like, balancing act between, like, nuclear war and utopia, like, where are we going to land? You know, like, well, you know, maybe we're going to have to get past whatever it is that we have clung to about being a person. This this thing that we think is so important. There's a great book by the great Arthur C. Clarke called Childhood's End. And he talks about aliens sort of incepting the world through telepathic children. And it's so it's, again, interesting how fiction sort of can mirror reality, maybe.

55:06where a lot of these kids actually in the telepathy tapes see other beings. They see otherworldly beings and it's sort of casual to them. They're like, yeah, of course aliens. You know, like it's not even a thing to them. And so they might already just be living sort of in this future kind of expanded epistemology that we're sort of limited. If the Campbell thing is right, like our consensus collapsing function is just narrower and theirs might be just wider. This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. people who go that little extra step like your ride share pointing out the best local places to eat goes a long way if you want people who are going to make a positive impression for your business use zip recruiter in fact try it for free at zip recruiter.com slash rogan zip recruiter's latest feature lets candidates go above and beyond to tell you why they want the role and it shows you the most interested qualified candidates first.

56:04Try ZipRecruiter and meet great candidates who'll go the extra step for your job. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free today at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. ZipRecruiter. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Right. And then when people consume all these bizarre plants, that allows them to tap into something. Like, have you heard about that mushroom that makes you see little people? No. What is this? Oh, it's very weird. So this mushroom is apparently, it's a food mushroom, and it's not psilocybin, and people eat it.

56:48But if it's not cooked correctly, if it's not cooked to a certain temperature, apparently the side effect is you start to see little people everywhere. No way. Yeah. They saw them on their dishes when eating. The mushrooms are making people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans. What? Like little humans standing on the plates and stuff? I don't know. Like Honey, I Shrunk the Kids sort of. We can try to figure out what they're saying. It's not the Amanita muscaria. That's a picture of Amanita muscaria, which is the mushroom. Also very trippy. Yeah. Possibly the Eucharist. Yeah. According to one scholar.

57:26Not, yeah, well, that's a weird one, too. It's just, it's so ubiquitous in ancient depictions of Santa Claus and of even religious art. Like, you've seen the fresco in France. It's a very old fresco of Adam and Eve. And instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it's not a tree at all. It's an Amanita muscaria mushroom. It's this huge, like, mushroom spore with, like, multiple growth. Have you seen it? I haven't seen that. I think it's 900 years old, something like that. It's really old. See if you can find that fresco. I believe it's in France. France? They don't like that. France.

58:06France. It's a depiction of Adam and Eve and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's it. Wow. I mean, that looks very similar to Amanita Muscaria. being then Aminida muscaria, which has a red cap and white dots all over it. I don't know how many mushrooms have white dots all over it like that, but that seems to look like that. No, it seems to look a lot like that. And then there's the John Marco Allegro, the guy who wrote The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, the guy who was on the Dead Sea Scrolls Commission, who was an ordained minister but also was agnostic. And after 14 years of deciphering the Dead Sea Scrolls, he's like, I think this is all about fertility rituals and the consumption of psychedelic mushrooms.

58:58Yeah. And everybody's like, what the fuck are you talking about? But that's what if you like Brian Morescu, I know you've had on multiple times, the immortality key or Karl Ruck, like they all sort of, you know, come to that conclusion. And even Martin Luther King wrote an essay called the pagan continuity hypothesis, which is that Christian didn't Christianity didn't arise in a vacuum. Martin Luther King. Martin Luther King wrote a book about how it was. There was a continuum between these sort of pagan mystery rituals and the advent of Christianity. Wow. So look at this. Even to this day, science doesn't understand what's going on in the brain to cause this or how to treat it.

59:33And this mushroom is the only thing that we currently know of to reliably produce this effect. So the University of Utah researcher Colin Domnauer in a new interview with Live Science adding that the gnome-like beings appear after about 12 to 24 hours and may stick around for several days to follow. These aren't like some vague hallucinations. These are like three-dimensionally rendered, highly detailed figures inhabiting your exterior world. And they're also interacting with objects in the real world, like crawling up chairs and tables or under doorways. Think of having to explain that condition if it hasn't gone away to somebody that you don't know.

1:00:17Like, I'm really sorry. How about the fact that it shows up a day later? So you have some Chinese food and they forgot to cook the mushrooms right. And then a day later, you've got like little dudes crawling up the chairs and it fucking lasts for days. It's so absurd. I found that after it's saying many people don't even feel any type of hallucination or thing except for the miniature people. That is the funniest thing. Whoa. It's called the Lan Mowa. How do you say that? Lan Mowa. Asiatica. So what type of, it's Asian cooking, like what China? So here it is. It's native to the pine forest in both southwestern China and the northern Philippines, where it's wild harvested and sold in local markets for typical culinary use.

1:01:08Yet, despite decades of anecdotal reports of hallucinations, usually as a result of undercooking, the species became known to science only about 10 years ago. Wow. Throw that in with the puffer fish of things you don't want to cook incorrectly. Well, or you do. Or you do. It's depending on what you're looking for. What happens if you eat it raw? These little people are said to be typically like teasing, playing with, or harassing the person seeing them. Boy, I mean, doesn't that mirror the talk of like gnomes and elves like throughout history? Totally. Yeah, the trickster sort of phenomenon. That guy's got it right there.

1:01:49Yeah, that's the guy. I would drug test Colin in a fucking heartbeat. Look at that fellow. I bet he's imbibed. He's having fun out there. He's imbibed. Postdoctoral student, University of Utah. We might have to have Colin on. I think he should. Yeah, seems like it. Very interesting. That's so true. So this is crazy. Whereas the genes responsible for synthesizing psychoactive compounds and typical magic mushrooms are well documented, uh don mauer don mauer's team found none in l asiatica there weren't even known psychoactive compounds so it seems like this must be some new hallucinogenic compound waiting to be discovered because there's nothing that matches anything in our database so someone's going to isolate that and turn that into a drug what the fuck man you imagine and dose somebody with that and try to if you're trying to convince someone they're going crazy he dosed them with that and like are you alone Mike?

1:02:46Are you alone in this room with me? No. There's little people everywhere. I told you. Let's take his money. Mike's a kook. It's like the prank you pull where everyone goes silent. They're mouthing or whatever with you but like on steroids. Like the worst version of that ever. What the fuck man? And how long have people known about this mushroom? Ten years. Right. Us. Western world. Wow. But how long have they known in Asia? Let me perplexity this and see what other fun information I can get. Throw that into our AI sponsor, Perplexity, because I want to know whether or not that's why they cook it.

1:03:21I also wonder if they ever put it in salads before and fucking tripped for a month. There's some origin story. The original chef saw little people for the rest of his life. Yeah, what happens if you eat it raw? Only one way to find out. He hasn't tried it yet. I'm scared. Yeah, right. Look at him. Guy's eating a whole salad with it. I guarantee you that dude's tried it. He's full of shit. I have no idea. I'm assuming this is what happens. I'm a scientist. Yeah. It's funny how a lot of those people researching stuff like that. For the first time I interviewed Rick Strassman, he didn't want to talk about his own personal DMT experiences.

1:04:03That's so often the case because they want to separate it. And it's like, it's all good. You're talking about this being a thing. To me, it lends more credibility if you've experienced it. Yes. But in his defense, when we first started talking and when I first had him on, the world was a different place in terms of just the acceptance of this stuff. This is like this predates people going to like Costa Rica and have an ayahuasca experiences that wasn't commonly talked about. It wasn't like everybody talks about that now. This predates any Ibogaine experiences, any even concept of there's a plant that you could take that cures you of any kind of addictions that you have.

1:04:43This predates you sitting behind the president of the United States and helping see through this destigmatization and legalization. It predates a lot of that. Yeah, fair enough. It predates people's understanding of why these things are illegal in the first place as well, which I thought was like really important when we did that press conference to say that this is not illegal because it's harmful and the world's trying to protect you from this. This is illegal because of the Nixon administration. Totally. Yeah, that's it. And it didn't make it. And they've probably set our psychological evolution, the evolution of our culture back hundreds of years.

1:05:20Potentially a cool thing there. Aha. Ah, possible ancient Chinese reference, a 3rd century CE Taoist text described a flesh spirit mushroom, which when eaten raw, lets one see a little person and attain transcendence. This is intriguing, but it's not confirmed species identification, so it should not be treated as proof that the text refers to El Asiatica. Okay, well, what other mushrooms allow you to see little people? They call it Lilliputian hallucinations. Papua New Guinea. Mushroom madness in the Western Highlands beginning in 1934 involving dramatic behavioral changes and reports consistent with little person visions.

1:06:07This exact mushroom involved remains unconfirmed. It may or may not have been L. Asiatica. Well, I bet the Papua New Guinea climate is probably at least reasonably similar to the Philippines, right? Yeah. Modern documentation. Chinese researchers reported cases of Lilliputian hallucinations after mushroom consumption in Yunnan in 1991. L-Asiatic itself was only formally described scientifically in 2015 after market specimens were genetically examined. Wow. It sounds just like Gulliver's Travels. We have like an explanation of it. So wouldn't it be maybe that's what the author of that book? Right.

1:06:48Oh, maybe he's had a story about. Right. That's probably exactly what it is. That's probably fucking exactly what it is. This guy went on a journey and was like, I tell you, little fucking tiny people, fuck them with me.

1:07:05It's like, I wonder what that is and whether or not they're actually here all the time. And that just lets you pop in and check. Who knows? Yeah. It's hard to say. Well, we're so limited. in our senses. Just think about what we know about, just think about what we know about the quantum world, what we know about subatomic particles. Like we can't see those, but yeah, we know they exist. Well, why can't we see them? Because our senses aren't good enough. Yeah. So like what else? And you can't even measure them. There's like Heisenberg uncertainty principles where you can't measure the position and momentum at the same time of an electron perfectly accurately.

1:07:41Yeah. And they also can be in two places at one time. What? Okay. Okay. Yeah. They're not two different things? No. Okay. They also could be still and moving at the same time? Okay. What the fuck are we even talking about? It sounds like we're talking about bullshit or magic or both. Yeah. Right? So our senses are the real culprit here. It's a real problem. And back then, real scientists, credible scientists, like Einstein was going to debate Niels Bohr. There's a great book called What is Real by a guy named Adam Becker about all of this where Einstein was saying the quantum stuff is too spooky.

1:08:18They call it spooky action at a distance. It's too weird. And we need to reconcile it with some sort of ontological truth or reality. You can't just say shut up and calculate. It's not just this like mathematical formalism. And I think now it's turned into just this like heuristic for like doing science. Oh, we built transistors and semiconductors based on quantum mechanics or whatever. But actually, it's like way trippier if you like look into like what it points to as far as reality itself. It's way weirder. Yeah. Yeah. McKenna was one of the first people that I ever heard talk about like using psilocybin mushrooms in particular as a method of contacting UFOs.

1:09:00You know, and he was like, you know, people that are looking for UFO, well, they're very available. You know, his weird way of talking. He was almost like a machine elf himself, the way he spoke. He would like kind of, I don't know, he had this kind of trickstery vibe. There's an amazing clip actually with him and John Mack, where John Mack is actually getting kind of very ideologically angry. And actually similar to what you just said about Rick Strassman, he had gone through this crazy kind of review of his credentials at Harvard. He was being almost stripped of that, of his position rather, because of looking into, you know, alien abductions as, you know, this lead at Harvard in the psychiatry department.

1:09:42And you just see like McKenna sort of like goading him along and being kind of cheeky. And he was just such a funny, interesting character who is so simultaneously trippy, but also precise in his language, was extremely smart. Yeah, extremely smart, but also like really wanted to believe. Like he had that weird time wave zero thing that he had. He thought there was going to be some sort of an event on December 21st, 2012, which is the end of the long count of the Mayan calendar. He was convinced that like there was going to be some sort of an event. Like that time was – and he thought, you know, obviously this is in the 90s when he was talking about this and discussing it.

1:10:20He thought it was going to be the invention of a time machine. That's so crazy. Yeah. He would also trip for weeks on end, as you know, with his brother and the Amazon, and he would download all sorts of stuff. I almost feel like the implicit kind of foundational philosophy that he has is that mushrooms are aliens themselves. And the reason I think that is because – so in 1973, I believe, Francis Crick, who discovered the double helical structure of DNA, wrote a paper. And then he followed it up with a book in 1981 called Life Itself. And it's all about how DNA in 100 million years, it's too short of a period of time for it to have formed on Earth.

1:11:00So you needed some sort of panspermia. And so you needed something to have traveled interstellar. What's the best candidate for traveling interstellar? Probably an extremophile, something like a mushroom. Mushrooms are almost like zip files of consciousness. They show up at the end of life and before life. And so if you look at Chernobyl, for example, what grows first after the experience? you know, experience mushrooms, you know, it's, you have, they call it the wood wide web, I believe in Oregon. It's like the largest organism in the world is actually like a mycelial network. And then where it gets really trippy is like, if you think about a Kardashev four scale civilization, which is Kardashev scales are basically like our ability to harness energy, but you could think of it as like a completely intergalactic civilization.

1:11:44That's like just very deep space faring. What would it look like? Would it look like a kind of bipedal hominid where you like show up you know on another planet and you get your meat you're this fragile kind of meaty thing that gets shot at no you would be this like zip file of consciousness extremophile that would spread all throughout other planets and you would basically create a symbiotic relationship with hosts and we all have microbiomes it's passe to say that but we also all have mycobiomes that accompany the microbiomes. And there's the mind gut connection is also this passe thing to talk about.

1:12:23Obviously, you have the vagus nerve, you have neurotransmitters getting created. So you know, mushrooms obviously affect our thinking, you can watch, you know, bullet ants in the Amazon getting like taken over by cordyceps mushrooms. And literally their, their whole muscular skeletal system are being, you know, they're being controlled by the mushrooms. And then you look at specific jumps in human evolution. And the one that people talk about is obviously the stoned ape theory, which is, you know, why did we double in cranial size between 2 million years ago, Homo habilis and Homo sapiens 300 ,000 years ago?

1:12:57That's really trippy. Maybe it was because as hunter-gatherers, we were following, you know, animals, animals take shit, and there's psilocybin cubensis or, you know, grow on poop. And, you know, and then people would trip out. They'd take these mushrooms and they'd trip out and then you'd get neurogenesis and you'd get these epigenetic changes and you'd get this doubling of cranial size. But what's the other big break in human evolution 10 ,000 years ago, which is the advent of civilization and culture? And think about what really is the line break there. What happened? We created an agrarian society, basically agriculture.

1:13:36So you have wheat, barley, and rye were the first crops that we grew. And what grows on wheat, barley, and rye? Ergot. And these are psychedelic substances. And so I think a lot of people assume that the agriculture gets created and then you get specialization, you get urbanization, you get history, you get religion. All these things are downstream of like, we have more time. We can think about this stuff. But what if they're downstream of the tripping that occurred? And if you look at actually, you know, the Immortality Key by Brian River Rescue, he will openly say, I think these mystery rituals go way back before the Greeks.

1:14:11And so you had pre-Socratic rituals that Peter Kingsley writes about, Heidegger writes about this. So how far back did it go? Maybe it goes back to that big break, you know, around then. And then you get into this thing of like, are mushrooms sort of symbiotic, you know, Kardashev four scale aliens that, you know, are Trojan horses for their own species? that like we ingest, they get into us and then they sort of subtly control our thoughts, our behavior, our perception. And, you know, it goes back to the McKenna. McKenna actually had this trip in the Amazonian forest. And he says about the mushroom, he says, he's speaking to the mushroom and the mushroom says, within my memory exists the blueprints for hyper light drive ships.

1:14:58So it's like the mushrooms are seeding us with this ability to go interstellar. and think about all of the crazy ideas that we've gotten from psychedelics, you know, so who are we to say that our evolution is not being co-directed or assisted by, you know, something else. And we're now saying this in the, you know, we're saying this with bacteria and other things like that, that, you know, it's, it's hard to say exactly what scale or hierarchy, you know, biological evolution occurs. But, you know, I think, I think, you know, mushrooms are really great candidate also humans mistake human tissue for uh fungal diseases we're so susceptible to fungal disease because human and mushroom dna are actually very similar human and mushroom and and mycellular dna are more phylogenetically similar than humans and plant dna yeah mushrooms breathe air there you go just like when you tell people that they go whoa yeah And they can survive in a vacuum.

1:16:02In a vacuum. And they're very homeostatic in nature. They can eat plastic in certain situations and stuff. And so it's like they are the stewards of the earth. If you get out of line too much or something, it's like they'll – and then think about people that take mushrooms. They become more conscientious vis-a-vis the entire earth. So they're very sort of like – they're all about ecological balance. It's just so stunning how one presidential administration that was trying to stop the anti-war movement and the civil rights movement threw water on like one of the most profound compounds that exists on earth.

1:16:40Totally. And Timothy Leary was probably the CIA construct. You think so? I think so. His wife thought that. His wife thought that? I believe so. I think there's a quote around that. Yeah, how so was he a CIA construct? Well, I think it was it's similar to the like Tom O 'Neill chaos theory with Manson where it's like He looks like a hippie smells like a hippie was living with Dennis Wilson This beat a Beach Boys or whatever and then and then he commits murder So like and then you have the Joan Didion quote that like that's the day the 60s ended, you know the date of the Tate LaBianca murders. Yes, so I think it's Maybe somewhat similar here where it's like you're dosing people with way too high doses and you're like seeding a lot of stuff, you know, too much.

1:17:27And you're like, you're there's actually a quote from Abby Hoffman, who was, you know, obviously, you know, big hippie at the time. Or he's like, we were just upright, you know, Berkeley students who were protesting. And then here came the flower children from L.A. and Laurel Canyon and stuff. And they were all about their drugs and their murders and their guns. And they were they were just sort of really crazy. And so I think the theory is that Timothy O 'Leary was sort of pushing this stuff in an overly aggressive way that would then cause this sort of backlash similar to the Manson thing. Well, they also had like weird connections to like biker gangs.

1:18:01Right. Like didn't the Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters have weird connections with like the Hells Angels? Isn't that how Hunter Thompson got involved with the Hells Angels? I think there's some sort of a connection. I might be making that up. I'm feeling very vague on this. but I believe they partied together quite a bit, which is like if you were, I mean, I guess you're both outcasts of society. You know, I guess you could kind of chalk it off to that, you know, like that maybe if you're hanging out in weird places, you're going to meet weird people. Yeah, totally. And I shouldn't say I'm like extremely high conviction that Timothy O 'Leary was a CIA agent.

1:18:40But even the connection with biker gangs, like biker gangs, did you ever read Hell's Angels? No. It's really great. It's one of, I think it's Hunter's breakout book. And it was before, like, it was very clear that he was sort of blurring the lines between fiction and reality, like, with literature, like, a literary license. But what essentially happened was these guys came home from Vietnam completely disillusioned. They'd killed a bunch of people. They'd been shot at. They'd seen their friends die. They didn't want to have any fucking part in this society anymore And they just wanted to ride motorcycles and be free and this is what started sort of the biker movement in America and When you think about the people that were in Vietnam Well, Vietnam was all about drugs to begin with the whole reason why we wanted control over that area of the world That's the Golden Triangle.

1:19:39That's where they're bringing in all the opium That's where there was fucking billions of dollars of drugs coming through there same as Afghanistan very similar in that way Is that we conveniently find like really important conflicts that we have to be involved in that just happened to be the hubs of massive amounts of drug money and so When these people were over there, they were a lot of them were doing drugs a lot of them were hooked on drugs A lot of them came back and suffered through withdrawals than when they returned to America and so Those are the type of people that you would imagine would be like, well, fuck this life.

1:20:14Yeah. I am just going to do whatever I can and I'll fucking rob the man. Whatever. We're going to figure out a way to make our own society and we're going to be outlaws. Just opt out. Yeah. Opt out and do drugs. And that's what they did. And so it kind of makes sense in a way that they would sort of meet the flower children and Ken Kesey and the Merry Pranksters and Timothy Leary. It kind of makes sense that they would have interaction with each other. I feel like the boomers in that period, like the late 60s, early 70s, had this opportunity. Okay. Leary's research was rumored to be linked to CIA, which allegedly provide funding.

1:20:59funding. CIA was greatly interested in the effects of mind-altering drugs in the 1960s, and its drug research was incorporated into the controversial MKUltra experiments. According to Walter Boart, Leary admitted to working for the CIA since 1962 as an important national asset. He's quoted by Boart as follows, I would say that 80 % of my movements, 80 % of the decisions I made were suggested to me by CIA people. I like the CIA exclamation point. This is crazy. The game they're playing is better than the FBI, better than the Saigon police, better than Franco's police, better than the Israeli police.

1:21:41They're a thousand times better than the KGB. So it comes down to who are you going to work for? The Yankees or the Dodgers? What? That's crazy. What? That's mad. So it was a very weird six months he spent conveniently right after he got out of the Army as a non-commissioned officer. So he spent six months at Ohio State, Jamie. All leads back to Ohio. All roads lead to Ohio. It's just a very weird thing that stands out to me. Boy, it just keeps coming back to Ohio. It's always there. That's his number one rabbit hole. Oh, I know. We've talked about it. We've got Wright-Patt there, Wright-Patterson, Air Force Base.

1:22:23You have Battelle Memorial Institute there. You have a lot of weird Epstein research. They just took his name off the – he was removed from the board or head of the board, chairman of the board. Who did? Wexner because of the Epstein stuff. Real. At Ohio State. Just now? Just now. Just recently. Took a bit. I mean, just recently. Took a bit of time. I don't know who's responsible over there. The Wright-Patt stuff is nuts. That's weird because that is the place when it was Wright Airfield at the time, right? Exactly. Where they think that they brought the Roswell crash. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 47.

1:22:59Yeah. And that would be the place where you would bring it to because they were reverse engineering German pulse jet engines, Soviet MiGs, that sort of thing. And there was this rumor of a blue room there that actually there's a crazy video of Barry Goldwater. who was a future presidential candidate, obviously, senator from Arizona. And he's talking about Curtis LeMay, who's chief of staff of the Air Force. And he's like, I asked Curtis LeMay to show me into the blue room at Wright-Patterson because it's this famous, you know, allegedly sort of alien, you know, storage facility. And he goes, he cussed me out of the room.

1:23:35I've never seen him get more angry at me. So, yeah. In Radio Shack, outside Phoenix, the senator disclaims direct knowledge of UFOs, but he does confirm a disturbing story. about an exchange with General Curtis LeMay. Reportedly, a spaceship landed and was all hushed up, quieted, and nobody ever heard about much of it. I called Curtis LeMay and I said, General, I know we have a room in Bryce Patterson where you put all this secret stuff... It was the worst audio ever. I've never heard him get mad, but he got madder than hell at me, cussed me out, said, don't ever ask me that question again. That's this audio by the same guy who did the video inside the UFO.

1:24:32They're just trying to fuck with us. They're trying to fuck with us. That's also a really interesting aspect of this whole concept of whether or not consciousness is rendering these things. If you're dealing with this reality that's like subtly unfolding in front of you, you kind of would have it a little funky, a little weird, a little blurry, a little odd. Like what better way to slow drip introduce it to the general public than to give it to you in these weird blurry videos. Not like some 4K crazy video of a fucking mothership size of a football field flying over a city undeniable. Nah. Let's give you some fucking black and white night vision of a circle going in the ocean, coming out of the ocean.

1:25:27Where you're like, what is that? What am I looking at? Well, that is a transmedium device that has gone into the water without creating a splash and then gets out of the water and it's going 300 knots under the water. Like what? Exactly. What? No. It's almost like it's like you said, it's meant to fuck with us. We are the end product is our belief system. And Jacques Vallée writes about this concept of intermittent reinforcement, which comes from the psychologist B.F. Skinner, which is like if you give a rat cocaine, for example, and you give it regularly, like on the dot every day or whatever, it'll like, you know, come back and forth and like it'll not care.

1:26:08I mean, it's cocaine, so it'll probably want it. But like if you give a rat cocaine intermittently, randomly, sporadically, it'll freak out and just get obsessed. and maybe cocaine's not the best example, but anything sweet, you know, it will become obsessed with the thing because there's something about the intermittency that makes it special. If it's regular, it doesn't care. It knows it's there. It knows it's going to be there at all times. And so I think there's something about the UFO phenomenon where it's trickstery. It always leaves a variable left to be questioned. And the end product is the person's obsession for truth after the fact.

1:26:47Yeah, because there's there's never going to be this smoking gun. It always has a slight stigma attached to it. Almost like a design feature of ufology itself is the fact that I've never seen a field where there is this much evidence, but there is very little incontrovertible smoking gun evidence. There is this much. There's so much evidence that like, you know, I had Michael Shermer, you know, famous skeptic on my show. who I know you've had on many times, and I feel like I ran circles around him because he's not engaging with these really important data sets around UFOs showing up around nuclear sites and that sort of thing.

1:27:26Like you can really argue with or you can convince any reasonable person that there is something going on. And then it's very hard to figure out exactly what. And for whatever reason, there's this like sort of mystery box smoking gun that, you know, maybe Bob Lazar has seen, you know, David Grush, I think, is this really fascinating person because he has, you know, he brought forward 40 people who claim to have firsthand knowledge to the intelligence community inspector general. So that makes him pretty special because he has this like really bird's eye vantage point over, you know, from around all this stuff.

1:28:02And he's obviously he himself has an eidetic memory. He's, you know, somewhat on the spectrum. And so which, you know, he he talks about. So he has this like really, really kind of crazy attention to detail. So it makes him this really interesting sort of person. And you have you have things like that. And then like, I don't know if there's a saucer and a hanger at right pat like, you know, I'd love to see it. It'd be awesome. And then you get into this sort of, well, you know, if that's like a payload delivery system, then obviously we can't see it because it's like this national security thing.

1:28:34But it's almost like a design feature of the thing itself. Like if you were to tell Jacques Vallée in 1975 or, you know, in the 60s when he was Jalen Hynek's assistant, hey, like this is how much progress we've made on UFOs. I think from the perspective of disclosure, he might be pumped about the last 10 years. but from the perspective of like understanding what the fuck they are he'd be like i like i had the best theory back then i'd you know really good theories back then so so like it's it's really crazy we're in the stone age on this stuff uh actually somebody who's like really up on i think he's i think he's he's he's responsible for a lot of modern disclosure but he's like blown by a lot of people is tom de long the point 182 crazy right he's like i thought he was a loon when he came on my show but more and more as time has gone on the things that he said have been proven to be true totally and now and i don't want to talk too much out of turn but like i because i'm i'm friends with him and he has some really interesting theories around consciousness and how like these events sort of occur when things are really unstable so like either to uh uh discard things that are unstable and that are threatening to sort of the system a la nuclear or um to save something that is essential to preserve the system so it's like almost this like regulatory thing it's really fascinating it's like he's he's now miles ahead of you know i think we're a lot of To me, I was always like, okay, why are they bringing Tom DeLonge in to have conversations?

1:30:15And now, you know, like he was being sort of briefed by very high level intelligence people, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that whole story of the To The Stars Academy is a strange, interesting story. It's all fucking weird. It's also weird that you would get the fucking drummer or the – what did he do in Blink-182? I think he was the front man. Front man. Yeah. Not the drummer. That was Travis. obviously, like that you get a guy who's a big time rock star. He was obsessed his entire life. And I think so. Yeah, I think he was surrounded by some very interesting people and in certain cases, not so savory people to be.

1:30:54Yeah. Or just people who are associated with misinformation. Yeah. Or like, you know, James Clapper, who, like, you know, probably lied in front of Congress about wiretapping. So like, why should we trust UFO stuff, you know? And I'm not saying that, you know, Tom was necessarily, I don't know who exactly he was in touch with, but I think it was like that crowd of, you know, people. But I think people, what people don't understand, and this is what I piece together from just knowing him. I think he has sort of vigilante gotten in touch with a lot, like a lot of these people like shut the door in his face and he's like, no, I'll fly out there and I'll do anything.

1:31:33And like, I'll, I'll help like communicate this way. I know you guys have been trying to communicate this forever to the to the public and like maybe I can help or whatever And I think a lot of it just stemmed from his desire to know and his like true passion for this that started from when he was a kid And that was like super organic But you also have to think like if you wanted to get a narrative out there what better way than get a really famous rock star Sure Feed him some whore shit Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's possible Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Right? Yeah, but also if you read Secret Machines, I think there's a lot then that's you know, he's written some books actually.

1:32:07And if you read the books, there's some really interesting things kind of hidden in plain sight that end up getting corroborated in my own open source research. So I'll give you an example. He says that a UFO possibly came out of the sky during a high altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands in the early 60s. So these are these famous, you know, Bikini Atoll, Johnston Atoll, you know, Operation Dominic tests. And I think it was he called it during the Starfish Prime series. And I thought that, you know, that was nuts. Like, what are you talking like a UFO came out of the plume? I know they show up around nuclear sites, but really did the UFO come out of the plume?

1:32:42So I ended up interviewing this guy. He's a presidential advisor to JFK, LBJ, Nixon and Ford. And he is 89 years old, completely like sharp as a tack, like with it, and just has this elite kind of macro kind of, you know, exact picture of the world in his head. I think he worked closely with Kissinger and like just really knew his sort of stuff when it came to just prosaic conventional political trends, you know, outside of UFO stuff. And he had been tweeting some interesting things about UFOs. And then he starts going into this story. And I'm like, what? So basically he goes, I was in charge of the cost assessment for one of these high altitude nuclear tests.

1:33:26It's called the Bluegill Triple Prime Test, part of the Starfish Prime series. In 1962, in October, actually during the Cuban Missile Crisis, it was October 25th. And he goes, we didn't have any way to defend against Soviet ICBMs at the time. So we, exactly. It's the GIF plan. I can't control the video. So this is the video of the test. And that white triangle was superimposed on, and there, that's the UFO falling out of the plume, which is insane. So explain it again. Okay. So basically. What's falling out of the plume? A possible UFO object. Yeah, that thing. What do you know about the images that were taken?

1:34:08You know, what is the method that was used where they observed reflective things in the sky from – what was it? Was it radar or what? Do you know what I'm talking about, Jamie? We've discussed this before. Like they have photographs of the sky. They have some sort of an image of the sky from the 1960s And they show that there were multiple things that were metallic That were I think you might be talking about Beatrice Villareal This Stockholm University astrophysicist That's it She's amazing So I'll get back to this in a second But she basically has these astronomical plates from the Palomar Observatory That's what it is Palomar Observatory was the most prominent observatory in use at the time.

1:35:00And she has these transients that she's gotten on these astronomical plates. The plates have basically this emulsion that's sensitive to light so that, you know, basically when light goes through, you know, the optical circuitry of the telescope and then it hits the plate, you see like stars and planets and all sorts of things. You have a record of what's in the sky. Right. And she saw 105 ,000 what she calls transients, which are light-reflecting mirror-like objects, probably in geostationary orbit, which is where I think we see a lot of UFOs. And this is before Sputnik, before a man-made satellite was ever in space.

1:35:40This is from 1949 to 1957. It gets crazier because a Ph.D. from Vanderbilt University named Stephen Brewell then correlated those transients. They show up more around nuclear detonations, nuclear tests. It's wild. Right. And you have people like Brian Keating and, you know, Sabina Hassenfelder, who are like conventional physicists who are talking about this now, who are like, yeah, we don't really have a perfect debunk on this. Some people have thrown cosmic rays at it. Some people have said, you know, yeah, solar rays. But neither of those make any sense. And then there's a former NASA astronomer named Ivo Busco who showed that some of these transits have – it's called a coma, which is like a little – kind of looks like a little comet tail on the transient.

1:36:30And that gets created by the optical circuitry of the telescope itself. So the number one debunk on Beatrice was that these transients were artifacts of chemical staining and like issues. They call them plate defects. And Ivo Busco is basically saying, no, the light is going through the telescope. It's going through the telescope. So it has to be an artifact of something outside of the telescope. So you're left with one conclusion, which is UFOs. And then you get into the fact that NASA has what are called like uncorrelated targets all the time. Like there's noise in the sky. There are transients that are detected all the time in the sky.

1:37:08And we just sort of rule it out all the time. So it's really crazy. And I think it's very hard to debunk. And if she figures, if she proves this to be true, this is a not only Copernican level discovery. It is greater than that. It is a wild, wild discovery. And I don't want to say I'm like 100 % sure it's legit. You know, it's a little beyond my pay grade when it comes to the science, but I have not heard one good debunk on it. Not one. Whoa. Yeah. You would love talking to her. It's also there's some speculation about some of these things falling from the sky that they took place because of these high altitude nuclear tests.

1:37:49So that's what this Bluegill triple prime test. So this is an example. So Tom DeLonge wrote about this Starfish prime test and secret machines. And a lot of this stuff is sort of, you know, codes hidden in plain sight. And he had amazing sources. I mean, one of his sources is this general who's now missing, William Neal McCaslin, who was in charge of the entire special access program oversight committee. And what he told Tom is he goes, you want to know about the UFO issue? All you're going to find are a bunch of blind men touching different parts of an elephant, which is, I think, the whole fallacy of modern UFO disclosure.

1:38:24It's not like there's this line in the sand. Oh, here's the truth. We're going to give it to you. It's like, oh, we have this program here and this program here and we're testing this stuff, but we don't really understand what it is. And it's kind of confusing. And so, OK, so DeLong writes about the Starfish Prime, you know, test right where this UFO comes out of the plume. I interview this guy, Harold Malmgren, who is well known in D.C. circles as this like elite statesman outside of UFOs, like just kind of renowned, good, you know, very impressive reputation. he discusses being in charge of cost assessments for this specific starfish prime test called the bluegill triple prime test where you put uh this x-ray device within the nose cone of a thor x-1 missile and it's specifically so that when you know uh the nuke the nuke detonates the x-ray blast then can take out any surrounding icbm so it's it's there was no way to guard against soviet to ICBMs, this was the way to do it.

1:39:21He said in my interview with him that, in fact, all along, you know, this may have been this sort of ploy to take out UFOs as well. His mentor, by the way, is Richard Bissell, who was the number two in the entire CIA and founded Area 51. Yeah, wild. Whoa. Yeah. And so he is in charge of the cost assessment for this thing. He says that there's this he gets briefed on it and he finds out that this object comes out of the plume of this thing and he goes what is going on he goes i want access to that this thing and he gets like i think kind of stonewalled a little bit he ends up at the sandia complex in new mexico one of these national labs and lawrence preston geis who found went on to found darpa and is jeff bezos's maternal grandfather hands him pieces of the ufo and he and he says and very sadly passed away a few weeks after i interviewed him so there's so much more of you know we wanted to learn and know about you know about this testimony but he says he held the pieces of the ufo in his hand and there's a freedom of information act request around the starfish prime series saying i want all records from Starfish Prime series on UAVs, UFOs, UAPs, every acronym related to UFOs.

1:40:41And the National Nuclear Security Administration gets back and they say, you know, the responsive records that you asked for, you know, we referred them to the to the right subject matter expert, implying that there are responsive records that there are records from the national nuclear security administration which guards all nuclear secrets around ufos at the time there's also a guy named david noble white crow who i think was a different starfish prime test claimed to see a ufo like on his navy ship um there's a guy named bob jacobs uh who i've interviewed who's a photo instrumentation specialist who says that there were rumors of an object having fallen, fallen, you know, down from the sky.

1:41:27In fact, if you look at the Navy deck logs, I just interviewed the Navy's former chief oceanographer named a guy named Tim Gallaudet. He is as well versed in Navy deck logs as anybody and as, you know, credentialed and qualified to read them as anybody. And he says that these look very anomalous and weird and like they retrieved something. And I think there was an outage on one of the ships. And there was an admiral named Admiral Starbird, who was named, I guess, who was the senior officer present afloat, who flew in a huff at 4 a.m. Once this thing was retrieved, he flew at 4 a.m. back stateside.

1:42:04So this is a much better video of it. So there are two vantage points, and both were EG &G planes, and EG &G comes up all over nuclear sort of stuff. And Kettle 1 and Kettle 2. And there's a actually an Australian intelligence analyst named Jeff Cruikshank who does an amazing analysis of all this stuff And he calls this the kettle one footage where you can see the UFO coming out and the kettle two footage is this It looks exactly like that footage, but there's a white triangle over the object coming out And some people are like oh, it's an emulsion defect. It's well, you know, whatever he he went to he he asked for a mandatory declassification review of this thing and I think the guy in charge of it was a guy named Byron wrist vet and that guy goes we lost the we lost the video we lost the video so it's either an emulsion defect or you lost the video but like you have multiple stories it's just like Roswell where it's like you have it's either crash dummies or it's a weather balloon or it's just a you know or it's project mogul high altitude radar balloon you have three different stories or it's just Fucking aliens, you know, or something, you know, so it's really crazy And and his Wikipedia was completely changed and destroyed the day the day after It was it was totally messed up in this this hit piece was written about him And it was it was it was actually after he died So it was really fucked up because it was like kicking this guy After he passed away and it was I think it was such an amazing Courageous testimony that I think will stand the test of time Why do you think they attacked him just to try to dismiss whatever he was saying to throw mud on it?

1:43:43I think a lot of counterintel in the space is not necessarily trying to shut down conversation entirely, but it's throwing mud on it. It's keeping it in this liminal space of like, I don't know, it could have happened. But so they called they moved him from presidential advisor to Japanese whaling lobbyist because he worked with every prime minister in Japan since Takana in the 70s. And so they're down to Shinzo Abe. And they're calling him like there was some scandal or something. And like that was what they were identifying him with was this wailing lob. It's so crazy. They're so good at that.

1:44:22They're so good at throwing mud on things. It's so crazy. And it was infuriating to be honest. It was really upsetting because here was a guy who he just pattern matched to this like really, you know, brilliant guy. And he had all these other amazing things to say about global macro politics, JFK's assassination, all these interesting things. And you're just like kind of really, you know, messing with his legacy or you're kicking him when he's after he passed away. It's fucked up. It is fucked up. But that is what they do. Yeah. What is your take on Whitley Stryber? I think I love Whitley as a person.

1:45:02and I think he, again, it's probably one of those things where in upstate New York, you know, as he describes in Communion, something probably happened. He probably is one of these people who like, you know, if we are nodes of consciousness that attract, you know, either very normal things or weird things based on our aperture and our sort of understanding of reality, his is wide open, you know? He is extremely high in the openness category. And I think that's where things get kind of sticky with some of these sort of super experiencers, because I think they are often very credulous. But that goes hand in hand with having a lot of weird experiences.

1:45:44And so I think Whitley's gotten stuff wrong. I do. And, you know, hopefully don't come down on me, UFO community, for saying that. I think he's I think he has said some wacky things that I'm like. Like what? I don't well we talked about one of them. I don't know if you remember that which one was it? It was like he said that there was a fly that I remember Yeah, I brought that one up before because I remember watching a video. I'm like, okay What are you doing because there was a fly he's like is that a man in a suit? Yeah, I remember that I was like wait I can't find that video by the way I've tried very hard to find that after the fact I Think very strange stuff does go on you know what he says he says I was picked as a node for disclosure because of the plot it would be plausibly deniable it's what you're talking about where there's there is he's this horror he was this horror writer he was a fiction writer before he had his encounter which is also part of the problem it's part of the problem credible imagination for sure and then it's also part of his ability to decide it's why communion was a bestseller so it's this weird like it creates this like sort of cult-like mythology and then i look i know a lot of experiencers where i'm like i know that i mean i really believe them that they've had experiences with you know grays specifically and it's a very common trope that they'll walk by communion in like a barnes and noble bookstore and it'll freak them out and that will be like their own hypnotic regression they'll be like oh like they've never seen a gray before and that's the first time they've seen a gray yeah the cover of the book is amazing it's amazing who else had a book called communion remember we had them on and we were like do you know that your book is the same title as a whitley Schreiber but was completely different.

1:47:23Remember that, Jamie? Someone like fairly recently. We have too many people on this fucking show. My hard drive's cooked. J.D. Vance. J.D. Vance, that's right. Oh, he had a book called Community. That's right. While simultaneously calling aliens possibly demons. Yeah, he didn't really have a good explanation for that. No, he didn't. I pressed him on that. And he kind of laughed very uncomfortably because he didn't know what to say. I think, with all due respect to Mr. Vance, who I really like as a person, I think he's a very nice guy. I think he's signaling to the tribe. It is. It's a political polemic.

1:48:01You're not looking at the data. Like he says, I want to look into the UFO issue. I just haven't had the time. I actually understand that. There's a lot going on in the world, you know. But it's also, you've had some time. So maybe, you know, go look into it. I kind of understand it, but kind of don't. with you. That'd be the first thing. You have plenty of time to go to church. Like, listen, bro, look into it. Look into it. Exactly. To quote Eddie Bravo, look into it. It's weird that you would say it's demons, but I think that much like Tucker Carlson has sort of alluded to this as well, I think there's a certain aspect of people that are believers, right?

1:48:39Okay. When I say believers, I'm talking about like Christian believers, believers in the Bible, believers in the narrative that comes along with Christianity. And that for them, there's like if you say, I believe they're demons, like he's on our side. There's – you will attract those people. They will – that will resonate with certain people. And I do think very unfortunately that there are politicians that say things – we both know this – that they don't necessarily believe because they think that their base wants to hear it. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You're a traditionalist. You're like, why do we have to deal with this new agey bullshit?

1:49:22You know? It's just, you know, go back to the scripture. They're demons. Oh, I like it. I like how this guy is talking. Exactly. Exactly. And it ends the conversation because then it's like, OK, but if there are demons, there are angels, too. And what is a demon and what is an angel? Also, where's the evidence that these demons are doing anything demonic? Well, here's where it gets interesting, which is if you actually talk to Jacques Vallée, who I do think is probably as deep as anybody as far as decades studying this stuff, going to, you know, 100 plus crash sites, talking to probably thousands of experiencers.

1:49:59and he'll often say, you know, some of this stuff does pattern match to demonic behavior, where it is sort of this, you know, getting you to chase your tail. It's, you know, it's paralyzing you. You know, in some cases, it's sort of, you know, angelic as well. In the case of, you know, Mario and Michael, it's, they say, do not fear, do not fear. That's exactly what Daniel in the Bible heard, you know, on the banks of the Tigris. Do not fear is if the Bible, if the angels in the Bible have like a, you know, a catchphrase, It's do not fear. And so he actually notes that there are some similarities.

1:50:32So I think the there are two failure modes, right? It's the end of the conversation. Like, you know, I'm religious. I don't want to hear it sort of thing. And then on the other side, it's like you can't even look at the Bible as data or like any past mythology or lore as possibly overlapping with, you know, sulfur and ammonia seem to be the smell. sulfur is a sign, you know, so, you know, that being, you know, at Virginia, you know, where that thing crawling around, that probably would have been called a demon like a thousand, two thousand years ago. Especially when you look at it. It was like a weird color body with red eyes and it looked like it had like these tiny little horns.

1:51:11Totally. By the way, I just interviewed the Brazilian, the former Brazilian defense minister and I brought up Virginia and he goes, I believe it happened. Whoa. Yeah. Whoa. So we're making progress. Allegedly. Allegedly. Well, then there's also the guy who was physically in contact with it that died. The guy? Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. Yeah. James Fox. Watch Moment of Contact if you want to know what we're talking about. Basically, you have 15 to 20 people alive today in this small town in Virginia, 130 ,000 person town. And they knew nothing about Roswell UFOs. You know, there's this town in Brazil.

1:51:52And in 1996, in January, James Fox, this amazing researcher documentarian, has triangulated the flight path of this kind of tic-tac object that came down. This this ultralight pilot and geography teacher named Carlos de Souza was first on the scene. He smells all, you know, these sort of weird sulfur ammonia smell. He actually holds the material apparently and then it's taken from him by, I guess, Issa is this nearby military base. Fifteen minutes later, he has this sort of men in black experience where somebody comes up to him at a gas station, seems to know everything about him and his family and swears him to secrecy.

1:52:34Meanwhile, the beings are running around this town and the beings end up in this hospital, regionalis hospital. and this neurosurgeon who I've met and interviewed, who was the chief neurosurgeon, basically like probably the most senior guy in Virginia, but I think even senior in Brazil, as far as neurosurgeons go, he says that he treated this being and that, or I guess he was face to face with the being for four minutes and he was checking the work of his colleague who had treated the being, who had done this like minor surgery on the being. And apparently if you go to this hospital and you say like, hey, you know, is this the being where the ET was treated?

1:53:16They'll be like, yeah, yeah, this is it. And Virginia itself has a big saucer. Yeah. You know, in homage to this entire event. It's amazing. Well, that's what's up. I hate I hate doing this, but please do. I just was looking up like, you know, perplexity. I asked Virginia UFO incident debunked or not. Never have done that before. And I've never heard this brought up. this is a known guy his name is Moudinho from that area and he is in the exact same position as the alien picture yeah weird yeah but if you treated that guy for a head wound you would know that that's the and does he smell like sulfur who's reportedly seen crouching in heavy rain they did a 600 page inquiry could have appeared dirty or unusual military is a could he have flown in on a craft with again i'm just was he so stinky that when the the officer brought him into the hospital the guy died of a bacterial infection they couldn't treat that's the crazy thing then there's this guy marco sherezi who's the soldier that grabbed the et being and apprehended it and his whole family knows about this and then he gets an autopsy i i interviewed the guy who did the autopsy and he was like this was like this gnarly form of this bacteria that I've never seen in my life.

1:54:36And the guy who's president of ITB, IPD, which is the company that does the autopsy report, he even said, yeah, I think it was from the nail of the ET accidentally, you know, the being didn't mean any harm to this guy, but there was a puncture wound and it created this horrible, you know, viral infection and he died, or I think it was bacterial infection and he died of that so crazy yeah what it's so nuts but i mean the virginia one is really crazy it's really crazy it's like there's so many people that but then the problem is like i would love to have talked to them in 1996 individually without them knowing that this is going to be a global story and when they when they can all sync up their memories.

1:55:22I know. I know. And I'm praying that we get a case like that, you know, at some point. Look, it's better than Roswell, 1947. Right. You know, we're really reading the tea leaves on that. So it's 1996. You have 15 to 20 people alive who have either saw the craft or the being. That's pretty amazing. Those young ladies, they were girls at the time. And then when they get interviewed later, when they're grown women and they're talking about the incident, it's very strange. But I think the strangest one is the cop who goes to the scene of the crash. He starts weeping and he starts really grilling. I'm like, OK, well, either this cop is the best actor that's never been in a movie ever or he's having a real response to some sort of crazy memory of an event.

1:56:03That was Carlos DeSouza, the geography teacher. And he led them around to your point for two hours or something before finding that spot. And I think if you were acting, you'd be like, yeah, this is the spot. You wouldn't be like, wait, there was a white shed there and it's not here anymore and confused. And apparently there was a white shed there that was removed or whatever. And then finally when he sees the spot, you just see him palpably break down. It's not this, unless you're taking some acting class on the side. No, you're a fucking genius. You're the next Daniel Day Lewis. Like, what are you doing wasting your time in Brazil telling UFO stories?

1:56:42He could a Hollywood young man. Yeah, it's – but it's also – the problem is I want to believe it. I know. That's also the problem. Me too. You know, I don't want to believe it's – like the thing about like Roswell in particular, Roswell, it has become an industry, right? There's the whole tourist trap thing. There's the little gray – you can buy things in knickknacks at stores. Totally. You know, it's like it's got this whole connection to it. It does. It's its own cottage industry. It becomes people's identities, so they often want to keep it going. And then sometimes they're like, and this other thing happened to me too.

1:57:21Wait, you know, come back sort of thing. Did you see the conversation that Travis Walton had with Bob Lazar in a diner? Yeah, that was on my buddy's show, Chris Ramsey, Area 52. What a weird way to do a show, have a diner. You have these two guys sitting across from each other. It's very odd how they did it. But I didn't think that was necessary. But the conversation's interesting. It's super interesting. And to hear the similarities between, you know, their accounts and things that line up. And they don't, those two guys are also kind of, again, in that top tier of like, you spend time with them.

1:57:54I haven't spent time with Travis Walton, but I have with Bob. And it's like, you know this, it's like really hard to poke holes in the story. And they just, to go back to our original, you know, OG, the top of this conversation, like the pattern matching is just there with him. He doesn't seem like a bullshitter. Travis doesn't seem like a bullshitter at all. I talked to him for several hours before and after the show. And he's also a guy who's had the same story for 50 years. It's the same story. Yeah. It doesn't really vary. They all took lie detector tests. One of the guys that was a part of the crew actually hated him and got in a fist fight with him the day of the event.

1:58:36And he told the exact same story. Yeah. And he came back. There was missing time. And I think he came back with a full grown beard five days later five days later. Yeah Yeah, it's very strange, but his clothes weren't dirty He's like and he had this insane story and they all stuck to the same story Yeah, yeah, well they thought those guys killed him at first. So they were they did they were questioning Yeah, they like where the fuck is he and they're telling the story like what and then he comes back five days later and tells the story and they're like what is like what did you guys all plan this like what the fuck is going on but it doesn't seem like they did so trippy and he like touched the craft and it was had this electromagnetic charge or something bounced off of it either he touched or he got close to it right got close to it and that's common to yeah maybe he got close i don't know but that's common for ufo experiencers where it's like you experience like weird electromagnetic effects where it's like almost like you're getting a a sunburn where you get like, you know, UV damage.

1:59:36It's actually in Close Encounters of the Third Kind. It's depicted where, you know, Richard Dreyfuss literally has a sunburn after his encounter. On one side of his face, where it was to the left of his face, because it was outside the window. Exactly. Exactly. And Mario Woods also in Ellsworth, you know, South Dakota, he also had burns and he didn't know where they came from. They took skin samples. And what did they discover? I don't know. I think that part's classified, unfortunately. God. Wouldn't you just love to have an actual experience yourself? I mean, imagine, thinking about all the time you've spent studying this and you haven't had an actual experience yourself.

2:00:16I've seen UFOs, but I haven't had a close encounter of the third kind. What have you seen? I saw in Laurel Canyon I saw a UFO and then in Silver Lake I saw you just weird places to see you about in LA what they look like one was I told one of them on on your show I think I told both of them on your show but but um one was like a school bus sort of thing which is really weird it was like um you know kind of you know rectangular and uh it was hovering like right above the treetops it was not very high and it was sort of silently moving over the treetops and i was with a friend at the time and she saw the ufo like descend over the treetops like like like go into some you know we were in a residential area it was in laurel canyon and so that was very strange i didn't see that i didn't see it sort of descend i just saw it go over and it but it looked like a floating again school bus like a thing and there's like no visible propulsion it was this strangest thing.

2:01:17How fast was it moving? That's hard for me to say. I don't know. Not fast. Not fast. Like it could have been a balloon. There's no way. Really? No. Why? It's floating like a balloon. Like a helium balloon? Yeah. I get. Maybe it could have been a balloon. A large balloon. Maybe. I don't know. It was right above the treetops and you heard this sort of little hum and I don't know. I don't know. I don't think it was a balloon, but maybe it was a balloon. I mean, think about blimps. Like, if you didn't know what a blimp was and you saw that thing flying over your head, you're like, oh, my God, we're being invaded.

2:01:57But I've seen plenty of blimps, and they're usually, like, really high in the sky. And this thing, like— But they don't have to be, right? That's how they come down. Yeah. Right? This thing was definitely not a blimp, but I can't—I don't remember the exact, you know, details as to what— No noise? Like kind of like a low bassy thing, but no like not normal propulsion noise. Like bassy? Like it was like a – Like a – Yeah, that sort of thing. Yeah. Like the fan that's moving the balloon. But not at all like a chopper or a plane or anything. And yeah, I don't know. As far as – it just looked metallic.

2:02:40Like if it was a blimp or something, it would have been like perfectly – I don't know. It had some sophisticated signature management to look like it was perfectly metallic and shiny. But like Mylar balloons, they look very metallic. Yeah, but I think you could see that it was floating. You could see possibly that it was moving with the wind, and this didn't look like it was moving with the wind at all. It looked like it was sort of moving against the wind. I mean not necessarily moving against it, but moving agnostic to the wind is what I'm trying to say. If there was a way where you could sit down and conjure up an experience with something, would you do it?

2:03:22Conjure up an experience? What do you mean? Like if you could, in a meditative state, access like whatever connection and have like a Betty and Barney Hill type experience. I wouldn't try to artificially do that necessarily. Really? I mean, I would love to have an experience, but maybe organically, like if it's sort of, you know, meant for me sort of thing. But that is – there are whistleblowers who've come out. This guy like Jake Barber, for example, that talks about essentially programs forcing people systematically to conjure up these sorts of experiences. Right. That's why I asked. Yeah. Yeah.

2:04:03Yeah. Yeah. No. And I think there's so I think there's a long tradition of communing with these sorts of things that goes back to like kind of Merkabah, Kabbalistic practices. You know, Neoplatonists would call it theurgy, like, you know, kind of communing with deities. And I don't think it's a coincidence that I think there are aspects of, you know, Stephen Greer, say what you will about the guy, CE5. There are aspects of that that are maybe similar to some of these sort of protocols that involve sort of communing with these things. And traditionally, you're not supposed to do this stuff unless you are like fully like a pure intent.

2:04:45You're probably older. Like you're not supposed to start Kabbalah, for example, until you're 35. Really? Yeah. I think you're supposed to be married as well. You're supposed to be like very rooted in reality. Interesting. Yeah. So and then there's like. That's like a Jewish mysticism, right? That's a Jewish mysticism, but there are Christian versions of it. And, you know, I think there are versions of it kind of across history. The Neoplatonists had a version of it as well. So, you know, I think this is something that, yeah, I think the Jews had it with, you know, Ezekiel's wheel and the kind of Merkabah texts.

2:05:21But I think there's more. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the weird stuff when you get into the Bible itself is the stuff that wasn't put in the Bible. I know what you're going to say. The Enoch stuff. That's so weird. The Enoch stuff is really weird. Yeah. And when they find it in these clay tablets in Qumran along with books in the Bible, like the book of Isaiah was also in there. Like, okay, what was that? And how much that sounds like Greek mythology, like these gods sort of mating with mankind. Yeah. And apparently it's still in the Ethiopian Bible. The Ethiopian Bible has all of the books of Enoch, all the different tales of the Watchers and the Book of the Watchers and all that stuff where they came down and mate with the daughters of men.

2:06:12They created the Nephilim. It's in the Ethiopian Bible. That is so trippy. It's so trippy. It's so trippy. And then they create the Nephilim. And then you get into the Timothy Albarino stories, which, you know, I know he was on your podcast where there might be giants in Afghanistan that the Air Force has encountered in the early 2000s. And you had Devin LaRotte on as well. You know, was he a famous arm wrestler? Is that right? Who served for the Canadian Special Forces in Afghanistan and saw a man that was like massive. He said he was like eight feet tall. And I think a mutual friend of ours, Brigham Bueller, shout out ways to well.

2:06:48They're the best. He has an employee who also, I think, was special forces in Afghanistan. And he says that there were there were, I think, you know, large beings there like giants there as well. It's like a bunch of like anecdotal. And that's just us. That's just, you know. So, yeah, it's fucking super weird. And do you know that these – the latest take on the Denisovans or Denisovans, however you want to say it, which is a very recent discovery. I think the first even recognition that there was another type of human called Denisovan. I think that's how they pronounce it. I always say Denisovan.

2:07:32They believe they might be much larger than human beings now. They used to think that they were squat like Neanderthals and thick brows. But now they realize their heads were much larger than ours and that these could potentially have been eight foot tall people. I didn't realize that. That's crazy. This is fairly recent. So when was the – put this into perplexity. When was the discovery of Denisovans or Denisovans? I want to say it's real recent, like maybe 2016 or something like that, like real recent, where they didn't even know that there was this branch of the human species. I feel like we've discovered a large percentage of hominids in the last 20 years.

2:08:20There you go. Okay. So, okay. They found it in Siberia in 2008. It was identified as a previously unknown group of archaic humans in 2010. The key fossil, small finger bone, has been excavated from the Denisova cave in Siberia in 2008. But DNA analysis published in 2010 revealed it belonged to a population distinct from both Neanderthals and modern humans. I think they have more now than just the finger bone. And I think that is where they're getting at. I think they have skulls. Various, highest known. Oh, this is people who have the DNA. So there's some of the DNA estimations. Melanesian populations, especially people with ancestry in Papua New Guinea and nearby Pacific Islands, roughly 4 % to 6 % of their genomes.

2:09:13That's interesting.

2:09:18Let's find out how many bones they have available. Because I think there's brow ridge bones and there's skull bones that seem to indicate that it had a larger skull than humans. And they think, how much bone has been recovered or found? Let's find out. Very little. So Denisovans are known for a small number of fragmentary fossils, not complete skeletons. Do they have skull? Do they have a mandible, a partial lower jaw from the Tibetan plateau? It was identified as Denisovan through ancient protein analysis rather than recoverable Denisovan DNA. No complete Denisovan skull or skeleton. just google I mean excuse me search for me Denisovan skull like see if there's images because I think there's a brow like the the problem is it's like you're you're looking for stuff yeah so like what is that is that just a recreation of what it looks like wow it seems like a recreation but this is what they think it looked like it's like a Eugene Levy situation huge eyebrows Look at the the brow ridge.

2:10:42Yeah So how much is this real and what is this AI like what is this? Well, I know perplexity not caught up to the latest evidence like in Peru Piraca skulls are 30 % Higher volume right often than normal skulls some of them are some of them are the weird shit with the elongated head That gets real weird. This has a fairly elongated head as well but it's not like upwardly. It seems to like move towards the back. But it's a pretty large. So is that an actual? I don't know. I'm trying to figure out. So if that's an actual Denisovan skull, it seems like perplexity is relying on older data or older papers.

2:11:30Because I do think that this is part of why they're saying that they think they might have been much larger.

2:11:39What's going on? This is natural histamine. What is being eaten? This is a hyena bone. That they were eating hyena bones? See, I just pulled this picture off of this website. I don't know if... Okay. Fossil evidence of mysterious southern Denisovans yet to be found. A replica of a Homo erectus cranium. Okay. That's from Indonesia. I know, but I'm just saying this picture showed up. Right. So that's what that is. But what so what is that image that love the prominent brow ridge like that one? Yeah, I know it's that I'm trying to track it down. That's coming from a nature article that I couldn't get into paywall So if they haven't found this much then I think Based off of the pictures I'm seeing they probably built it off of this tooth they found And then expand it out to the air because there's a little picture of a tooth right there, but right So that seems like a jawbone that they found so if that if it turns and again we're talking about something that's recently discovered they only knew that this thing existed 16 years ago which is really a part of the problem with this whole term fossil record you know we like to think of the fossil record as being a library it's not no it's like it's really limited in terms of like how many things that die leave fossils it's a tiny fraction.

2:12:57Same with the archaeological record. It's the same thing. At least the archaeological record, we have physical stuff. We can look at, you know, we can look at the pyramids. We don't really know what happened and who built it, but at least there's physical stuff there that defies explanation. But if you have a cataclysm, and we probably did during the ice age. Yeah, more than likely. More than likely. The idea that we didn't have a cataclysm seems silly at this point. It seems like there's so much physical evidence. And it's almost like the longer we go, the more hominids we find. And the longer we go, the older things get archaeologically.

2:13:34And it's actually predictable. Like it makes sense that both of those would be the case. Like obviously our abilities to like map and have sensors and like figure this stuff out is increasing. And lower in the sediment layer of any sort of dig is going to be like older stuff. Yes. So archaeology is 200 years old. Literally the discoveries of Babylonian cities 200 years ago. That's so crazy. Syrian cities, yeah. Have you seen, I think he's an Italian guy. There is a new paper that's being published about the dating of the pyramids, and he's relying on erosion evidence. Yeah, I think relative erosion method.

2:14:12Yes. Donini, I think is his name. That's exactly him. Yeah. And he pushes it way back. Yeah, yeah. He pushes it back as recently as, oh, God, I want to say like 16 ,000. And then the high end is 35 ,000 plus. Yeah, it's crazy. Which is like, wait, what? What are you talking about? Like, this is a 35 ,000-year-old building? What does that even mean? Who? Speaking of, did you see that they retracted this? Oh, Filippo Biondi. Yeah. Yes, he contacted me about this. He's very upset. Yeah. They retracted it without an explanation without any justification. My, I'd like to call it nuanced take, is that I think, I don't think he's lying.

2:15:02I don't think he's a fraud. But I think that he needs to just open source his method. Because basically you have this synthetic aperture radar Doppler tomography, which is synthetic aperture radar is a known technique for, you know, radar imaging. and it radar images at like very fine resolution. And then you have this ability to measure micro vibrations that transmit into the satellite signal. The thing that is only his, his and only his, is this beyond the method, which is this software where he is able to deduce these structures, you know, underneath the earth based on that. So do I think he's lying about the Grand Sasso Laboratory, which is, you know, this other sort of, I think, Particle Accelerator National Lab out there that he was able to like perfectly measure and 1.2 kilometers into a mountain into a mountain yeah I I would really hope not and I don't think so and but then at the same time I think it's like dude you gotta like you're you're talking about like a Nobel Prize or something here like just just let it like either you either have to get really really rich and keep it closed source or the preference that I would have and I think that would be best for humanity it's just open source the thing and you know i think it's his life's work so i think he's a little possessive around it but that would be the one thing where i'm like dude just let it let it out or let somebody else replicate it interesting because um they've used this method to identify structures that are known to exist and um they've right yeah and i think the uh what is it the osiris shaft i think yes Yeah, exactly.

2:16:40And it got the right dimensions. And if it's correct, if he's telling the truth about what it was able to deem from the particle accelerator, when it was looking at the particle accelerator, it got the exact dimensions of it. It knew where it was. And so it's like— We need to dig. Yeah. We need to do something. Well, there's all those—that's the one thing that he brought up on the podcast, Those shafts that exist around there that have been filled up with debris and sand and dirt over time that they need to clean that shit out and get down in there and find out like what is because we know that there's all these subterranean tunnels and passages that are all around Egypt.

2:17:22Like for sure they know that that labyrinth exists. Yes. That Herodotus discovered and that he talked about in great detail. they knew they know from ground penetrating radar these these great chambers in there even zahi hawass will admit that there are tunnels underneath the sphinx right so like yeah i think more likely than not there is something underneath the pyramids yeah and then we just have to dig we got to get down there and if you're egypt and you're the ministry of culture that's the most gdp boosting thing you can think of god could you imagine if both uh Is it what's the other guy's name be the Italian guy with the erosion guy?

2:18:02I think Donini Donini if Donini and beyond II first of all what a great fucking Italian duo like if these two guys from Italy have a crack two different things One of them with erosion science and the other one with the ground penetrating Doppler tomography if those guys are correct you're gonna have like in a gigantic group of new people that want to come and check out Egypt. That would be so awesome. You have to get past these gatekeepers of the timeline. The gatekeepers of the timeline really want to insist that 2 ,500 BC is about as good as it gets. Yeah. And it's like, it's all good. It's the land that modern Egypt is on.

2:18:43It's fine. You can sort of take pride in the fact, even if it's older and it's not necessarily like - It's still Egypt. It's still Egypt. That's what's really dumb about the critics of these theories. They all want to attribute it to a bunch of different people. Like you and I are fucking alien kooks. And we're not trying to. We're saying like, no, it's probably people had a super advanced civilization in that part of the world a long time ago. And what you're getting is multiple generations of people after the fact trying to recreate some of these ancient structures. And these ancient structures probably predated whatever civilization existed at 2500 BC.

2:19:26Yeah. And you have to throw spaghetti at the wall. Like it's like it's your duty to speculate because the conventional narratives don't make any sense. At all. At all. And you have people grasping as far as there's a French guy, Jean-Pierre Houdin, who is like, you know, civil engineering chops. And he's talking about like an external ramp, but then an external ramp would, you know, the incline would be too high for these, you know, megaton bricks, you know, blocks. So then you end up with an internal ramp as well. So it's like we are, that is like the best explanation, right? Conventionally. And so let's try to figure it out and let's be a little creative and we don't need to like, you know, stay so narrow.

2:20:07Like all these skeptics are like, they're, you know, attack dogs for what? Well, the problem is they don't want these Jimmy Corsettis and Michael Buttons and all of these people that have enormous following online to have any point. They don't want that. They want to dismiss them outright, which is why they always use the same pejoratives. They always call them racists. And the white supremacy is one that they've attached to Graham, which is hilarious because he's married to an Indian woman. The whole thing is so stupid. So crazy. He's the most non-racist person you're ever going to meet in your life.

2:20:44He's just completely open-minded. And also, that doesn't take away all the factual data, all the stuff that's really weird, that's hard to describe. When you're talking about a structure that is perfectly aligned almost to true north, south, east, and west, and has 2 ,300 ,000 stones and used to be covered in smooth limestone, and somehow or another was the greatest structure that human beings have ever created and is bare minimum 4 ,500 years old. That is a mind fuck. And anybody who says that's not a mind fuck. And when you're talking about some of the stones, like particularly in the King's Chamber, that are hundreds of tons or 100 tons or 80 tons or whatever they are.

2:21:34And it's from hundreds of miles away through the mountains with no roads, no heavy machinery. And they're placed way the fuck up on the ceiling of this place. Perfectly. Totally. There's also the weird mind fuck of the sarcophagus in the king's chamber, which aligns with the same dimensions where you could fit the Ark of the Covenant in it. No way. Yes. Really? Oh, there's a lot of people that believe this. There's a real problem with the measuring of radioactivity too. They tried to say there's a higher level of radioactivity inside the sarcophagus than in the outer walls. But the problem is when people talk about radiation and stones, like stones, they have a certain level of radiation just inherently.

2:22:22You know, like you can – the sun has radiation. Like Geiger counters can go off. Yeah. But the people that are like, they're really out there. They think that that might have been the positioning for the Ark of the Covenant. And that it measures. Like if you look at the Bible's description of the dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant, it fits conveniently inside the sarcophagus in the king's chamber. Whoa, that's crazy. It is crazy. What's also crazy that Graham believes that the Ethiopian Bible and these Ethiopian religious people who have supposedly this group of people that are supposed to watch over the Ark of the Covenant and that they are in possession of it and that these people that watch over it, they all develop cataracts and they can only do it for a little while and then they wind up dying.

2:23:15So they have like short tenures as the watchers of this, whatever the fuck this object is that they're calling the Ark of the Covenant. Stories of their faces getting mangled if they walk inside. He was so afraid. This was actually, I think, one of his first articles for like a magazine before he got into all this stuff. This is how it got him into it in the first place. Got into it in the first place. You know, another crazy story is I think it's Sir James Bruce was looking for the Ark of the Covenant and he found the Book of Enoch. But he was searching for the Ark of the Covenant. But yeah, they think it's an ax in Ethiopia and there are Templar crosses, I believe, on a church there as well.

2:23:51And so and Graham talks about this. And so that's his connection because they, you know, they're obviously legends of the Templars being these sort of knights that guarded, you know, you know, after after the destruction of the temple, the Ark of the Covenant. And so maybe they actually did make it all the way down to Ethiopia. Which is wild. It's so wild. If that thing was actually in the center of the sarcophagus, in the king's chamber, in the pyramid, whatever that thing is. It's so – I mean the one maybe counter argument or something I'd be curious about would be the Nazis were obsessed with the Ark of the – like the Indiana Jones plot is like legit.

2:24:31Like Himmler would go on these weird quests or whatever around this stuff. And I guess Italy and Ethiopia had that war around that time, I believe, right? Or, like, why wouldn't the Nazis just go in and try to take this object? Maybe they weren't aware. Maybe they weren't aware. Who knows? This guy, Ollendorf, says he went and saw it in 1941. Oh! What? And that it's a replica. He stated that he gained access in 1941 because he spoke classic—oh, how do you say that? geese and appeared serious however he asserted the box inside was empty and described it as an empty middle to late medieval replica rather than the true biblical artifact so he's the only guy that's gained access and this was in 1941 he's a british officer during world war ii and later a professor of ethiopian studies at the university of london interesting i want to know the details Like, how does he know that it's an artifact?

2:25:30Or it's a replica. Yeah. Sorry, that's a replica, rather. Yeah. I did look this up just, I think, yesterday. Oh, you did? Rabbit hole. Jamie, Captain Rabbit Hole over here. I found on this rabbit hole because I was trying to find out where it happened to the staff of Moses. I just was thinking about weird things that existed in history. And also the Ark of the Covenant. Last time it was actually known where it was was 586 BC. Ooh. So like when Jesus was around, no one knew where it was. That's interesting. 586. So hundreds of years before his. 600 years before Jesus. Wow. Yeah. I know the walls of Jericho were supposed to come down, I think.

2:26:09Yeah. The Ark of the Covenant. Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem. They tore down the cathedral. Wow. Which also I stumbled across something called the Madaba map. Have you ever heard of that? No. It was found. it's a mosaic of like ancient jerusalem found around 6 ce and it shows i've never heard of this before so i was actually trying to show you like the best way to describe it but it's all in like ancient greece it was a mosaic underneath the floor in a different church that they found while they were about to make a new church so they were doing like reconstruction and they found this map of ancient, it's pointing things out here.

2:26:51This isn't the best way to describe it. I'm sorry, but they've mapped it all and found things that, I think it was found in like 1895, right around turn of the century. So it shows like where Jerusalem was, where all these things are in reference to each other and all these places that were in the Bible and whatnot. Wow. And I guess people didn't know about them and that's when some of the stuff, you know, getting validated. Jordan's Madaba map. That's what it looks like? That's the actual image of it? Yeah, it's really, I mean, it's old school, you know, I guess, tiles and little pieces of fragments of different things that is artistic, was covered up probably multiple times.

2:27:30So wild. Well, then there's the weirdness of the Ark of the Covenant. And the dimensions match this object that's on Mount Ararat, which is exactly where supposedly it landed in the Bible. What? Yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a bunch of people that firmly believe that this object on Mount Ararat. Is that the Moses' staff? No, this one is. So this, it turns out, I don't know if this is real. This is where I was, the rabbit hole was getting real weird here. It's in a palace in Istanbul, I believe, where there's other relics. It's like the Palace of Relics or something like that. There's the sword of the prophet David from 10 BC.

2:28:12somehow they got you like David and Goliath. What? King David. Yeah. And there's a bunch of things from Muhammad there. There's like a piece of a tooth, a piece of a beard. What? And that's what I don't, to say it's not real, I don't know. It just looks like a stick. But the biblical like descriptions of it are that it turned into a serpent at one point. You know, this is what parted the Red Sea. Hmm. Go to the Mount Ararat stuff. because the Mount Auret stuff is really weird. There's even like a whole touristy center that you can go there where they describe it as being the landing spot of Noah's Ark.

2:28:51But apparently what's weird is the analysis of the ground underneath it and that there's organic material that aligns with the dimensions of the boat. No way. Yeah. It's really weird. Well, just the object itself, like whatever the fuck that is. Oh, this is in eastern Turkey. Yes, it's on Mount Ararat. I've heard about it, yeah, yeah. Just the dimensions itself, fucking weird. Like what is that thing that's up there? And so when they analyze it, like you see, it has like what appears to be chambers, and then also what appears to be the remnants of some sort of organic material, which would be wood, that was used at construction of this thing.

2:29:37That's sick. There was something recent about it, though. See if you can find, like, news. Go to news. This is what I thought I saw. I saw this, and I don't—I've just seen this video, where someone's inside, and they're claiming—this has got to be a claim, because I don't know how they got here and where this video came from. He's going—this is the same guy who made the UFO video. And, like, they're showing—when you get down here, they show, like, pieces of wood. That's Noah's dick. Or it looks like wood. Yeah. Yeah. He's showing pieces of wood. Or what looks, I mean, it's a... Noah Ark scans.

2:30:13God, how much wood is left from 2 ,000 years ago? Or more? I saw the piece on Instagram, I think, where it was not the entire 45-minute video. There was some news of the analysis of that that I saw online.

2:30:30April 22nd, this is my bit. Researcher believes Noah's Ark found in Turkey after new underground scans. Yeah. So researchers working in Turkey say fresh scanned data, this is from April, uncovered what appears to be tunnels inside the long debated landform bolstering their case. The site may be a man-made object they believe to be Noah's Ark. I do believe this is real decayed, buried remnants of Noah's Ark, the famous ship, and we're doing our best to convince the skeptics and show the world this site. The tricky thing is for carbon dating, you do need organic material. Oh, yeah. And not only that, it's like the tricky thing is like the whole story doesn't make sense.

2:31:12You take two of each animal and then what happens? Animals eat other animals. So how does that work out? You've got to treat it. You know, in the Bible, they're supposedly waited. They waited until the animals gave birth to a bunch of different – before they ate them. It's insane. Okay, what? What? Are you a kid? it's just like i mean it literally sounds like you know like a child wrote a story it's very very goofy but then you get into the fact that there are like 400 or so flood myths across disparate cultures some of whom never had contact with one another yes definitely and then you also get into the idea that it's not maybe the whole world that flooded it's this immediate area and that this idea of he took two of each animal, maybe he just took enough animals so he could sustain agriculture afterwards.

2:32:00And these other animals did not go extinct. And then maybe the story over time becomes he got fucking giraffes walk there from Africa. Like, where are you getting horses? You know, how are you getting eagles? Like, how are you getting everybody on this thing? It doesn't even make sense. And real discoveries are often motivated by myth, like motivated by Homer and Herodotus stories about the Peloponnesian War, you had this German businessman, Heinrich von Schleimann, spent all his money looking for Troy and eventually found it. Yeah, which is wild. Wild. Another story would be, you know, Plato talking about this flood.

2:32:38He's talking about it in the Atlantis context. Obviously, it's a dialogue. And it's, I think, the Timaeus and Crataeus dialogue. And this is told at a mythos festival 600 BC. And they say 9 ,000 years ago, this great flood happened and then you line it up and that that's meltwater pulse 1b which is probably the flood that got us out of the ice age so to discount myth entirely as like non-historical i think is throwing the baby out with the bathwater right the timeline aligns with the great with the theory of the younger dryest impact theory exactly the great flood and the younger dryest impact theory align with the timeline that plato how the fuck could plato have known when he's saying 9 ,000 years.

2:33:19Like how, how is it so perfectly aligned? Bad on it. Seems a little convenient. Yeah. I think if there was a Noah's Ark, it was probably, well, first of all, how does he know it's coming? How long does it take to make this boat? You know, that's where it gets really weird. Like does this guy actually have a premonition? Is he actually like attuned to some sort of psychic energy or does God, or for lack of a better term, actually talk to this guy right and say hey dude some shit is about to go down and didn't it take him i want to say the biblical account is it took him a hundred years to make it oh i don't even know i know that is back when they were like living for hundreds and hundreds of years 177 years old and was 182 when he had noah normal normal stuff david sinclair help us let's get back there well this is This is the real thought is if David Sinclair is correct, and I think he is, if they can figure out a way to somehow or another access whatever part of the human genome allows us to age or causes us to age and reverse that or change that.

2:34:30How do we not know that if you got a civilization that could build the pyramids, how do we not know that these people were also capable of extending lifespan? A hundred percent. Yeah. And if knowledge gets lost and we're now figuring out Horvath clocks, DNA methylation clocks, biological age versus chronological age. Yeah. I'm sure you talk to Brigham about all sorts of like novel, crazy things he's looking into with stem cells and the amazing things they do. Like, why was that not necessarily discovered before and just erased from the historical record? Easily could have been. It could have been.

2:35:03If there is a cataclysmic disaster and we do have a hyper-advanced civilization that's capable of engineering feats that we still can't replicate today, which I think is the case. Because there's a lot of people who say, we could build the pyramids today. Fuck you. Okay? Fuck you. No one has. Do it. Go do it. Go do it. Shut your mouth. The biblical account, Noah and his family were in the ark for about a year, often calculated as roughly 370 days. Wow, they were in that boat for a fucking year? That's crazy. Bro, that sucks. You think those guys are stuck in Iran, have it bad. Genesis dates their entry to the 17th day of the second month of Noah's 600th year and their exit on the 27th day of the second month of his 601st year.

2:35:49It rained for 40 days and 40 nights. How long did it take him to build the ark? It says 120 years. Does not give a precise construction time? The commonly repeated 120 years is a traditional interpretation of Genesis 6-3 rather than explicit statement that construction itself lasted 120 years. Well, it's all, you know, you're getting into, when you're getting into ages like that, what's really weird is it's not just the Christian Bible or the Old Testament or that has these long extended lifespans. that's where you get really weird because both the ancient Egyptians when you know the Zephteti and then when you get into the ancient Sumerian kings list like there when you go the further back these motherfuckers were living thousands and thousands of years reigning for thousands of years and then after the flood you start seeing ages align with modern human ages which is really weird really weird yeah it's like okay what and so the way archaeologists dismiss it they say oh that was just myth okay but but you're along with this myth particularly the sumerians you have actual historical kings that had actual historical reigns that are depicted in the same the same texts so like what's going on a hundred percent and there i think natural selection is a real theory there are people who like deny it and i think it is a locally extremely useful legit theory but there's a great philosopher of uh science called carl popper and he had this whole thing of he called them materialist promissory notes where you have issues in evolution natural selection you have punctuated equal equilibria this sort of rapid speciation in the fossil record things that are very hard to explain and we just like to fill in the gaps and we don't know you know there was actually a really interesting um german uh guy named i think it's richard goldschmidt and he had this idea of he was an evolutionary theorist and he had this idea of hopeful monsters and so you'd get these mating between interspecies so you know a mule would be a good example or like a tiger and a lion like a liger and every once in once in a while like it would like hit this ecological niche and like you know actually make sense for the local ecology and then it would sort of persist and i think he's largely been debunked but i spoke with this darpa dude who was like i can say this because i we didn't end up pursuing it but you know the movie the shape of water the guillermo del torta he was like at one point we were thinking about stuff like that like interspecies yeah yeah and i don't i don't know if it was like humans and other species but it was inspired by this guy Richard Goldschmidt.

2:38:46Well, you know the Russians were considering making a hybrid between a human and a chimpanzee for war. That's crazy. I know Putin's talked about killer dolphins. No, this was... God, was it World War II? It was World War II, right? So it was World War II. Who was it? Was it Stalin? That's crazy. I don't know if we would know officially. So I just remember the guy was doing it on his own for sure. Would have been Stalin. I don't remember what they said. See if you can find it. That's so wild. So the idea was, look, Russia lost like 20 million men during World War II. And I think the idea is like, boy, wouldn't it be better if people didn't fucking die?

2:39:31Why don't we develop warriors? And so I think they were trying to make a human-chimpanzee hybrid specifically designed for war. I don't know if it was official because he got in trouble for not telling the female volunteers what was going on. Oh, Jesus. Could you imagine? What? Stay put, honey. I'm just going to stick something up there and wonderful things will happen. Jesus Christ. Notorious Soviet-era attempt, but no human-ape hybrids were ever created. But, yes, it was a real attempt. Russian Soviet biology Ilya Ivanov proposed using artificial insemination to test whether humans and great apes could produce offspring in the mid 1920s.

2:40:13Okay, so it was after World War I. Soviet support, he traveled to French Guinea and inseminated several female chimpanzees with human sperm. None became pregnant. He later sought to reverse the experiment by inseminating women with ape sperm. Historical accounts indicate he considered doing so without consent in Guinea, but colonial authorities blocked the plan. Back in Russia, he sought female volunteers, but the available adult male ape died before the procedure could occur, so no such insemination proceeded. Sounds like a great person. Yeah, what great guy, wonderful dude. But it's like kind of crazy that that was I mean imagine if it worked and then they just created like a million of them and just armed them.

2:41:04Well, also where are we headed with CRISPR and the ability to, you know, right to do that. Right. Well, also, what the fuck is going to stop them from turning around and taking over Russia? Like, why would they listen to you? Right. You're giving them guns. They're way more violent. They're super territorial. They're way stronger. And also they're going to recognize that you made them to go die. And they're going to be really resentful of these fucking pink little fleshy fucking water balloons of meat and tissue that are so vulnerable compared to them. It's like, yeah, it's like you created me.

2:41:42It's Planet of the Apes. It's Planet of the Apes. It's also the way people talk about AI. It's like very analogous. Very much so. Very much so. Yeah. Yeah. We are always meddling. We're always meddling. Which makes me think something more advanced would probably meddle with us. That's right. Just do it a little bit more subtly. And they would do it at the boundary. Like it makes sense that UFOs to me would show up around nuclear sites because those are the Archimedes lever of destruction. Those are the points of most leverage, the hinge points of civilizational collapse. It is not a coincidence that Mario and Michael were abducted at Ellsworth Air Force Base and saw this thing hovering above a live hydrogen bomb.

2:42:25That feels like it makes sense. Yeah. You know? And, like, if you were governing a system, you would look at those nodes. Right. You look at the—actually, there's a great neuroscientist named Don Hoffman, and he says if you're, like, guard—if you're a simulator and you're guarding the simulation, you look at the exit paths. So I think about two exit paths in our sort of simulation one would be high energy physics so particle accelerators high voltage experimentation and Nuclear like real like stuff where you're really pushing it at the boundaries of space-time So I think that's why these things show up at national labs nuclear sites a lot of like really hardcore kind of experimentation And then consciousness I think that would be the other exit path And so that's why I think these things show up when we're sort of communing with this higher thing Right.

2:43:14And it also makes sense why they show up when you're sleeping. Right. Like if you're having these encounters, like all these abduction experiences, the great many of them happen at night. Right. Yeah. And it's an open question as to why is it evolutionarily adaptive for us to sleep? Right. It doesn't really make sense. It's terrible. It's terrible. And we're we sleep deeper than like most animals. And so we can be walked up on by predators. And there's so many nocturnal predators. absolutely so what stupid idea why wouldn't that get selected out maybe something important happens during sleep yeah who knows yeah but like it's it seems like yeah we don't understand any of that stuff the dream dreaming sleeping and it's probably adaptive in some way we don't understand yeah and like what is happening when we're sleeping i told you about my crazy dream the one crazy dream that i had still to this day kind of it's very foggy now because it's months and months after the fact but that the day of that dream I was shook that almost really shook it almost feels like uh if I were to analyze that dream it's like uh they were giving meat to these crocodiles in the water or something so it was like it was like our limbic sort of reptilian because in every man you have your sort of reptile self and then you have your like more aspirational self or something and maybe they were sort of like holding that at bay and they were you said to me you were like these beings these like future human alien looking beings we're telling you like this is a brittle experiment like this whole thing you've got set up this could end tomorrow like we're here sort of protecting you there was a very flimsy barrier between the crocodiles and whatever was in the water and uh i was like that's it that's the only thing that's talking This was like a fucking traffic cone and some tape or something like that.

2:45:07Some plastic bars. I don't remember specifically, but I remember being very uncomfortable with how little protection there was to stop those things from coming out of the water. So fascinating. But also the weirdness of them. Their bodies, they were very slender and kind of tall, but no muscle at all. No strength at all. And larger heads. and very odd looking, almost Asian looking, very weird. And they were playing with me a little bit, like spooking me, ha ha. And it was very strange, but it was so vivid. That's the weird part. That's what's so trippy to me where I'm like, maybe it was an experience.

2:45:48It's hard to say. It's impossible to declaratively say it wasn't, right? It's hard to know what a dream is in the first place. Yeah. Like what is going on when you have vivid dreams in the first place? Totally. Yeah. What is that? It seems like you're working out problems. Like a lot of times people are working out issues. That's why they say sleep on it. I think there's something to that old wives, you know, the old wisdom of sleep on it. It's almost like you're because it does feel like sometimes like issues that you have come up in sleep, but you're almost like metabolizing them or you're like you're like working them out by experiencing them.

2:46:24But in like a padded walls sort of way in the dream where like you don't want to work that out in 3D reality. And so it's sort of adaptive in that sense or something. Maybe. I don't know. Who knows? Yeah. But it's weird that I've had so many dreams that have been, you know, even crazy dreams. Like, wow, that was nuts. But nothing like kept me from going back to sleep. Yeah. That's what's so trippy about it is like you went and worked out right after. I could not sleep. I laid in bed for like an hour afterwards trying to go back to sleep. I'm like, I am not going back to sleep. Like whatever the fuck that was was way too real, like way more real than any dream I'd had before.

2:46:58If I was an alien or a future human, I would definitely visit you. Whatever it is, if I mean, whether or not it's my imagination just hit a burst of like serotonin and dopamine and neurochemicals and DMT or whatever it was that created this very vivid thing. It's either that, my super hyperactive imagination, or an encounter. It's hard to know what it was. But what it was was very different than any other dream that I've ever had before. Yeah. Well, I think that's a beautiful, like, that's all you can say about it is what it is. But that's being honest. Yeah. But it also is the problem with someone having a legitimate experience.

2:47:39Like, how much do they elaborate? How much do they expand? And how much do they try to justify their experience rather than saying, I don't know what the fuck that was. Yeah, totally. I think in many cases the honest thing is I don't know. I don't know what the beings were. I don't know where they were from. And it's so interesting that we snap to grid all of these experiences into this sort of alien motif. And it's why the Pentagon now uses non-human intelligence, which sounds kind of ridiculous because it could be AI or an animal or something. I wonder why they changed that. I think they changed it because they don't know definitively that it's extraterrestrial.

2:48:15And the office that I think in bad faith likes to debunk this stuff, the All Domain Anomalies Resolution Office that just likes to pour court. It's the modern blue book, basically. They often say we have no evidence of extraterrestrial visitation because they hinge it on that conclusion. That is a conclusion. There's a lot of anomalous data. There's stuff showing up at our nuclear sites everywhere. Donald Trump reportedly told inner circle aliens are living in Earth's oceans I've heard he said that too that also he alluded to that remember the Jersey drone flap in November of 2024 He kind of alluded that he goes we know they're coming from a garage.

2:48:52It's a weird place It's a garage. We have no idea what they are, but they're in the ocean. This is according to Jack Osborne who said I think to Andy Stumpf and He said that he has got a friend that talks to Trump frequently so i know jack source actually and uh yeah yeah and i don't think he's lying well this is also what multiple people have said that there's something in the ocean you know and this is yeah no i i just had on the um navy's chief oceanographer who we just talked about he was head of noah yeah i saw that yeah and um you know he talks about tons and tons of sightings, tons of Navy sightings.

2:49:38I mean, the three sightings that were popularized, the videos that were popularized in the 2017 New York Times article, which is whether you like that article or not, they got some things wrong. Very responsible for a lot of the modern kind of disclosure movement. Very responsible for people all of a sudden taking it seriously. A hundred percent. Yeah. It slapped that credibility onto the whole issue. Those were Navy cases. Those were all Navy cases. The Nimitz sighting, GoFast and Gimbel were all Navy. And so, yeah, there's a long history. I mean, the Bluegill Triple Prime thing I mentioned with Harold Malmgren was Navy as well.

2:50:11You know, you have Tim Burchette saying there are five or six hot spots, you know, on ocean floors. And then you have Bob Lazar saying, you know, actually that was taken out of context. You know, people are saying the craft he worked on, the sports model, was found in an archaeological dig. It was actually found on the seafloor. Yeah. And I think the Office of Naval Intelligence knows a lot about this whole topic. In fact, Jay Stratton. Where was the information that it was found on the seafloor? That's what he says. And I think he might have said Barry has like... Well, he said one of them came from an archaeological dig.

2:50:41Yes. But it wasn't the sport model? I think. I thought it was... Oh, I don't know if it was... Maybe it wasn't the sport model. He said one of them was really old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He said one of them, I was told, actually came from an archaeological dig and is really old. It might have not been the sport model. That's the other weird thing. But he said it was the seafloor. The labyrinth. What is it? That Herodotus described. There's a tic-tac. There's a 40-meter long tic-tac-shaped metallic object that's inside of some sort of an atrium. That's so crazy. Just a 40-meter long piece of metal that's thousands and thousands of years old.

2:51:16Like, what are you talking about? It's so crazy. How the fuck do they have 40 meters of metal back then? Like, what is that? It's so crazy. 40 meters is nuts. It's so nuts. 40 meters is almost a half a football field. It's huge. It's a fucking massive piece of metal. It's vertical. I do not know. Okay. I don't know, but it's shaped like, you know, like a craft. The other crazy thing. Imagine if there's a fucking UFO under Egypt and you just get a dig and go get it. That'd be so wild. Well, the crazy thing, I know you're referring to a lot of Ben Van Kirkwijk's amazing work. He's been on your show a bunch.

2:51:50He, I think, went to Dandera and the hieroglyphics there, like, translate to Stargate. Yes. That's crazy. Like, what? and then i think stargate you know takes place at the pyramid the pyramid is literally a portal and then if you combine that with the christopher dunn stuff or the beyondy stuff where either it's a you know a generator of electricity or there's this other guy amazing guy jeffrey drum who talks about it as a chemical manufacturing plant yeah i've seen you know like something was being done there and maybe it had to do with some transcendent you know and then it obviously you know it's somewhat maps to Orion's Belt as well.

2:52:27So I don't know, maybe. And then Orion's Belt is the pathway that souls took in ancient times. Oh. Yeah. I never get tired of the subject. It's so fun. As long as there's new information that comes out, they got me hooked forever. It's like a stupid soap opera that I'll watch till I die. Yeah, no, I feel the same. It's so like, and it's always like the cast of, there's so much drama too and disclosure and stuff. And it's just, I don't know. I do think in our lifetime we're going to make a lot of progress on it. This is Herodotus' I hope so. Herodotus' description had 12 roofed courts arranged in two rows, six facing north and six south, all enclosed by one outer wall.

2:53:14It contained 3 ,000 chambers, 1 ,500 above ground and 1 ,500 underground. Herodotus say he toured the upper chambers himself, but Egyptian custodians refused to show the lower ones. They reportedly held the tombs of the original royal builders and of sacred crocodiles. What? That's so nuts. Bro, that brings back to my stupid dream. I was literally thinking that, yeah. He emphasizes its bewildering internal circulation. Visitors passed from courts to chambers, chambers to colonnades, and then to further rooms and courts. Its roof was stone. Its walls bore carved figures. And each court was ringed by precisely fitted white stone columns.

2:54:03And Pliny the Elder also had an account of this thing? Like this was... Well, I mean, also with ground-penetrating radar, they know it exists. They know it exists. These chambers actually do exist. And that's the weird thing about whatever that metallic object is. And they don't know what metal it is either. It doesn't resonate like aluminum or iron. They don't know what the fuck it is. That's so wild. You know a crocodile? Labyrinth surpasses even the pyramids. Wow. He says, I saw this myself. I found it greater than words can say. That is so wild. That is so crazy. Imagine saying something's greater than the pyramids and it's under the ground.

2:54:40And you are the preeminent Greek historian. Like you're writing about all the craziest shit. And you're writing about it from a firsthand perspective. It's not like he heard a story. Yeah, you've seen it. Yeah, this isn't like Homer. I was watching an older Lex Friedman podcast and this linguist guy. I haven't heard this discussed yet, especially with all the times we've talked about Gobekli Tepe. Have you ever seen this thing? What is that? the way he describes it is it's like proving that they had language then because this is not cuneiform and the way he i mean they get it takes 30 minutes probably before they get to this and because he's breaking down what language is and how we got to it and he gives a very crazy explanation of language i had not heard which it's it's like um writing down sound In the same way that like a record is recording sound, you're writing down sounds.

2:55:39And it's like it took a while for everybody to agree upon what all those sounds were so that you're all reading the same thing. So Irving Finkel, scholar of ancient languages and longtime curator at the British Museum, renowned for his expertise in Mesopotamian history and cuneiform writing, believes this artifact from Gobekli Tepe is evidence of the earliest form of writing dating back to around 11 ,600 years ago. So he's saying like the way that the other stuff is reliefs, that this was like a stamped piece of clay that would have been, you know, some record of some sort saying something was done.

2:56:12And it's like a verification of that. And this could have been some guy's last name. There's further breakdowns I've seen. Like maybe this snake is like the S sound. And this could be some guy's name. Who knows what it really could mean. But this is going to, you know, 12 ,000 years ago when they thought we only were doing this for 3 ,000 or whatever. Trippy. Yeah, it's very weird. It's all very weird. They're just a history that we know of with the human race. I mean, just when you get to these old structures that we know people made, when did they make them and why? Like, what is Gobekli Tepe?

2:56:47What the fuck is that? Do you think we see a shift in our understanding of humanity and our place in the cosmos in our lifetime? Yeah, one funeral at a time. Yes, that's how science progresses. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. One gatekeeper. Yeah, these old cocksuckers, they need to get out of the way. I just think there's way too many of these people that have a vested interest in protecting a narrative that they've been teaching, they've been writing books about, they've been saying that they are the experts. When you literally can't be, there's just not enough data. What every period in history, like things get wholly overturned.

2:57:32So if you can't point to one thing that's kind of heretical today that you agree with, then you're definitely on the wrong side of history. Yeah, we always say we're at the end of history, scientifically, historically, and then it always, you know, progresses. And usually there's a that's when people are most saying, we're at the end of history, you see a paradigm shift and everything just completely collapses and change. This is like the structure of scientific revolutions is written by a guy named Thomas Kuhn, who's actually He was friends with John Mack and he encouraged him to, you know, investigate the alien abduction stuff at Harvard.

2:58:02And he was he would say that there's a law of declining marginal returns in any scientific paradigm where you're just rounding out the final margins on a theory. And you're so sure of it, you know, like electromagnetism, the late 19th century. And then, boom, you get total collapse because, you know, Max Planck figures out quanta. You get the quantum revolution. And who's to say, who are you to say so smugly that that's not going to happen now? Like, of course it will. Of course it will. It's just what always has happened. Yes. And much like the UFO thing with when it comes to discussions about ancient history and the true history of the human race and what we really don't know.

2:58:44the people that are the most smug and are the most sure of themselves are most certainly the most wrong. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, because I think the whole thing is weird. The UFO thing is weird and the ancient history thing is weird. There's too many unanswered questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the answers that they have are really shitty. There's too many really shitty answers. This is kind of a weird analogy, but in like stock picking, which is, you know, it's easy to get feedback on stock picking, like whether you're right or you're wrong. Confidence can rise exponentially and accuracy rises very linearly and often plateaus.

2:59:27And so that's often I think it's the case in like, you know, in learning anything where like you get more and more and more confident. You're so sure of yourself. And but your accuracy is only going like mildly up. And it goes back to what we're talking about with like remote viewing and staying in flow state. Yes. It's like you got to get out of your own way with everything. Totally. And sometimes, you know, a great example is Marconi, who is responsible for inventing the radio by most accounts, him and Tesla, right? He tried to send a signal across the Atlantic, and he thought that electromagnetic waves curved.

3:00:01And so he was like, you know, I'm going to send the signal. It's going to work. He was entirely wrong about electromagnetic waves curving. It just bounced off the ionosphere and then it landed across the Atlantic and the signal was received. And so he was right because he was wrong. And how many cases are like that where, you know, did Graham Hancock find the Ark of the Covenant? No, he headed in this general westerly direction of knowing that we have kind of amnesia as a civilization. And he found something extremely special, you know, helped popularize the Gobekli Tepe narrative and this whole Younger Dryas period, you know, impact theory hypothesis.

3:00:40So you have, you know, the same thing with James Bruce with the Ark of the Covenant. You can shoot for the stars and land on the moon, you know, and that's OK. but if you're just like this nitpicker like annoying smug you know academic who's like arguing for the priestly citadel to be upheld like what what is your contribution to humanity right like what are you doing yeah and there's a lot of those there's so many yeah but i think even some of those people and i'm not i'm not saying that all of the attributes i just mentioned apply to neil degrasse tyson but but that's some of those some of those people are now updating on ufos and it's wild because like you have a documentary you know the age of disclosure where all these high-ranking intel people are saying ufos are real repeatedly in front of a chalkboard saying they are real take my word for it and it's bludgeoning you basically to a point where you're like okay they're probably not like lying to me you know and so and then you end up with neil degrasse tyson being like look okay it's just an overwhelming amount of accounts now now i'm you know i do think there's probably something here and we should look into it and And it's like, dude, you weren't doing science before.

3:01:49But is all it took a documentary? That doesn't make any sense. No, it's criticism. Yeah. He's responding to overwhelming criticism of his intellectual capacity for reason. That's right. Yeah. Because I think like when he was on the podcast with me, I got very upset with him when he was like, why would they be interested in us? And I told him, I go, that one drives me crazy. And I tried to explain why it drives me crazy. And he kept interjecting. And I'm like, OK. Yeah, just just stop just stop with that idea that we're not interesting We're territorial apes with nuclear weapons who fucking send FaceTime videos to people on the other side of the planet That's real weird.

3:02:27We're we're apes with nukes. Yeah, we're real weird We're real weird And if I was something that was an advanced civilization from somewhere else Hopefully that a civilization that has gotten past the concept of war and stealing resources and all that and and does have some sort of a hive mind some sort of ability to communicate telepathically i would be absolutely fascinated by this thing that seems to be in this transitionary sort of an adolescent stage of evolution and development it's like not quite a primal animal anymore but also not evolved past primal animal behavior a hundred percent and i'll the Chinese science fiction novel, The Three-Body Problem, you might not show yourself overtly.

3:03:11In the dark forest teeming with life, it's actually dangerous to show yourself. So you subtly show up. You show up at these nodes, hinge points of possible cataclysm, at nuclear, you show up to a specific person who might be a node of disclosure, but you'd let it sort of seep in, you'd condition the population. You wouldn't show up all at once. And we are objectively being conditioned to accept this if the fucking president is saying they live in the ocean and timbre shed is saying there's five hot spots in the oceans as well and then we see it in the new york times in 2017 well this is how disclosure takes place hundred percent nice and slow nice and slow to the point where it just becomes accepted totally yeah and there's no like clear ontological shock moment it's not the fucking devil's tower ufo lands it's not that no no it's nice and slow it's what's happening now yeah it's happening and that's why because there are people that get really frustrated and i understand it because there's so much sclerotic bureaucracy on the hill and you know these whistleblowers need way more protections i think we need targeted immunity for certain people who can say a lot more who are good faith actors coming out there are probably a lot of people did really bad shit that we don't want immunity for, you know?

3:04:27Right. But like, ultimately, you know, I have these conversations and it's like, it's so frustrating. It's taking so long, but it is moving. Like if you look at 10 years ago, vis-a-vis today, 2016, before that 2017 article to today, it's wild. Totally different landscape. Totally different landscape. Yeah. Yeah. If you talked about it back then, you were a buffoon and now you're on the right side of history. There you go. So you, Joe, are the premier scientist because you were into all this stuff way back then. That guy was into it first. Art Bell. Art Bell. The legend. The OG. Inspiration. Jesse, you're the fucking man.

3:05:05I appreciate you very much. It's always great to talk to you. Your show is amazing. American Alchemy. It's available on YouTube and it's incredible. It's the best. Love you, Joe. Thank you for having me, man. I love you too. Thank you for being here. All right. Bye, everybody.

3:05:25Thank you.