#2560 - David Grusch

28:21What are they going to tell their citizenry? You have possible theological distress, Vatican, et cetera. And I'm a Catholic, and I certainly appreciate the Vatican's long study on this subject. and they've just stayed quiet on what they know. And so there's a lot of collateral effects. If you're not careful with certain stuff, you can trigger a response. And there is great fear that – I don't necessarily believe in this, but there has been assessments in the past that revealing certain things may trigger a response from a third party. Trigger a response from them, from these entities. Possibly, yes.

29:01And that is a that has been written up. So the government think tanks wrote that up in reports to previous presidents. So the the theory is that we disclose people are now aware of it all over the globe and they decide to show themselves. Yeah. I mean, I think there's a real fear of like a Ghostbusters moment, I'll say. Oh, boy.

29:52bruschette on Benny Johnson's podcast talk about Stephen Miller called him and was like, hey, I'm getting blocked, like physically blocked from access to a lot of this stuff. And, you know, that's very concerning. I would say Stephen Miller is an alpha dog. He's a pit bull. And as a fellow alpha, I do appreciate his. That's a silly thing to say. Yeah. You know that, right? What? A fellow alpha. Fellow alpha. Opens yourself up to like tremendous amounts of ridicule. Yeah, I know. I know. I mean, nobody's perfect, and I know everybody has their faults, but I do appreciate the fervency. He is attacking the issue behind the scenes, and I think he needs guided the right way and informed in kind of how to cut this deal.

30:36I met him very briefly at the UFC event at the White House, and he told me that it's going to come out. I'm like, okay. That's good. Well, there you go. It was really quick. He's like, I know you're interested in this. This is literally all we talked about. The UFO thing is going to come out. Yeah. Like, OK, when? When's it coming out? Let's go. Exactly. And Trump understands the subject pretty good. And, you know, he's in the know. And he understands some of the implications. So, like I said, he has a lot of courage because this is likely going to change society in a big way. I can't necessarily – I'm not like a social anthropologist or a psychiatrist.

31:11Like I can't necessarily predict in what specific ways it might reduce, you know, fetal nation state peer competition and other things. But it is going to change. And I think when people look back at this interview, it's going to be very haunting because I think in short order, you know, before Trump leaves office, we're going to be in a new paradigm. And I'm normally a very pessimistic, cynical person. A lot of my friends know that. but I have great confidence that the president is doing the right thing and I feel there's eventually going to – the people that are in charge of this are going to have to comply with the president's order.

31:48But there's a right way of doing this I think. And like I said, I'm not some sycophant for the deep state. I'm a whistleblower obviously and I have philosophical differences about how this was kept and how they could possibly reveal stuff. But I am surprisingly confident, which is kind of weird for me to say, because I just see the tea leaves. I know Miller's serious. There's other people in government serious. I mean, you can see Aaron Lucas, the PDD &I, the deputy director of national intelligence, you know, sign these big NDA waivers. It includes like any kind of waiver of not even telling the president, sorry, you have to tell us kind of thing.

32:25And so you're seeing kind of the chess board being set. I know everybody's not happy with the tranches coming out with the low-hanging fruit videos and recordings and stuff. And Representative Burleson and I, before I left his office recently, got a 1952 recording that was still classified from Blue Book talking about the seriousness of this issue and all the crazy shit that they're seeing near nuclear sites and test ranges, which is interesting because in that video that's been declassified, It mentions the very sites that in modern day have that same anomalous activity to include stuff in the southwest.

33:01I can't say where. It's in the ecosystem, in the open source, but the executive branch has it acknowledge what specific test and training range. They're seeing crazy orbs that they can't explain. This accosts helicopters and all that. So is Trump experiencing resistance in your opinion? Yes. Yes. And I don't know all the details, but clearly, clearly Miller has. And a lot of it is, I think, and I can't read the mind of the deep state, but as a former deep stater, I would say that there's always been this kind of disdain for political appointees and they don't and members of Congress. Like they don't they don't have the reverence on this issue.

33:44They're going to fuck it up. They're going to say something that they shouldn't have about a classified program. And that's why some classified programs are kept from Congress. It's called waived programs. And the only presidents that were really, really involved were the ones like H.W. Bush. He was C.I. director. He was fully briefed on this issue. A lot of that lore is true about H.W. Bush. Cheney, like I've talked about, fully in this. He was the mob boss for many years. He was kind of the head of this activity. And so I think there's some testing of the waters right now. It's kind of like cat's paw dynamic, like, you know, we'll give you a little bit of this, a little bit of that.

34:24And they're they're seeing how the administration is going to potentially roll this out. And obviously, if the White House wants my opinion, I'm available. But I do trust the president's team hopefully will be able to handle this. And because if Trump doesn't enforce his order and see this through, I don't think any other president is going to be able. I mean, I mean, regardless of Democrat, left, right, whatever, like if he follows through on this, he's going to be the goat. He's going to be a legend. And, you know, all the other things people have problems with in his presidency, Iran, whatever.

34:57I think this will wipe those out. And this is really important for his legacy to initiate the process before the 28th election. And then there's like a hot handoff to the next administration. And, you know, if Trump's a political animal, he could easily line up a Republican team on the 28 ticket to basically, you know, be his continuity on this, too. I think that'd be very smart. So this is going to take a long time to release? Is that how you're projecting this? That was always the plan back in the day. Why? Just because it's like an anesthetization and climatization process. It's like, you know, OK, we're going to focus on this topic.

35:36Everybody's this is going to get normalized. The temperature is going to cool. And then we're going to bring in this shocking thing. So there's a there's a schedule like in terms of like the psychological impact on the populace in the past in terms of certain government think tanks wrote classified assessments for previous presidents on this. I don't know what the current plan is. I'm just I'm currently literally a private citizen right now. But if they're going to do what they did in the past, it is – and the slow rollout has its pluses and minuses. Like I would say due to human factors, risks of adversarial countries getting ahead of us, other whistleblowers, whatever.

36:17You probably have to roll this out in at least like 12 months and whatnot. But we're in a precarious time if the administration doesn't start because China and Russia could take advantage of this moment now, our weakness. You know, China has their famous Belt and Road Initiative. China has admitted publicly that they have a UAP task force. Obviously, they have more than that behind the scenes. And they actually announced that when the DOD UAP task force was announced. You can find a news article from June 2020 in the South China Morning Post where they talk about they're analyzing these encounters, they're using AI, etc.

36:52Do you feel that China has or do you know if China has these crashed vehicles as well? There's parallel programs. There's parallel programs. Now, one of the things that Diana Pasolka said and Gary Nolan refers to in the same way as well, they refer to them as donations. Yeah, that's what's really interesting is I am aware of certain historical retrieval where they were like perfectly landed. And it wasn't like a crash. And what's going on there? I'm sure we've done a deep assessment. I had never had access to that kind of information. I'm sure that we understand why that happened at some level, but that is true that that's actually happened.

37:35So the theory is that they want us to find these things so that we can examine the technology and perhaps work from it, back engineer it, or like you were saying before, gain inspiration to try new. Yeah, I mean. This episode is brought to you by Dodge. I recently had the chance to get behind the wheel of the new gas powered Dodge Charger SCAT Pack. and it reminds me how much I love cars that give you an adrenaline rush the second you hit the gas. First thing that got me was the sound of the performance exhaust. It sounds awesome. Paired with a twin turbo, six-pack gas engine, mind-blowing. I love cars that sound like that.

38:14And then I tried launch control. It's fantastic. You feel all 550 horsepower. Thing goes from zero to 60 in 3.9 seconds with a top speed of 177 miles an hour. and it's comfortable. It's nice to drive. Another cool thing, you don't have to choose between control and performance. You got all-wheel drive when you want the grip, but you can switch it to rear wheel mode and just have fun with it. Totally get why people are so excited about this car. I loved it. Check out the new Dodge Charger Scat Pack. Learn more at Dodge.com. Dodge is a registered trademark of FCA US LLC. This episode is brought to you by Takovas.

38:54All right, seriously, if you're looking for new boots or shoes this summer, you got to check out Tecova's. These guys make some super durable and handmade boots. Besides being incredibly comfortable right out of the box, they've also got some great slip-ons, perfect for casual summer Fridays. Their stuff is built to last and made for long, hot months ahead. And they look great with everything from jeans to khakis to linen suits, dress them up or down. Plus, they've got tons of options from classic leathers to exotic hides, whatever lights your fire. So whether it's your first pair or your 15th, you got to check out Tecova's in-store or online at tecovas.com.

39:40That's T-E-C-O-V-A-S.com. And right now, get 10 % off at tecovas.com slash rogan when you sign up for email and text. Part of it's like throwing the gorilla banana, see if it can peel it. But also, the more skeptical intel officer in me is like, well, is this a Trojan horse? Do you want us to figure things out and then get addicted to certain type of technology? And then that creates a control loop where they start handling us. Whether we need raw resources to maintain a certain technology. They, as in this intelligence. Whatever this is. This non-human intelligence. Right. So if it is a donation, do you feel like this donation is evenly distributed amongst world powers?

40:33You know, I do not know the statistical distribution. That's very interesting. I never understood the total number of retrievals in other countries participated. But there's supposed to be quite a few in the United States. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's for sure. I don't know the answer to that, actually. I'm sure there's a statistical analysis that will come out in this process. Do you think there's any shared information between these governments? Do you think they communicate? There is a gentleman's agreement. The top layer of it I can talk about, and I've talked about it previously, so it's not anything super new.

41:11If you look at the Accident Measures Agreement of 1971, which is the short title of this god-awfully long title treaty that was signed in September 1971, you'll see Article 3 of the treaty talks about UAP. And, hey, if you see any unidentified objects around your nuclear or critical comms facilities, please call us, bro. And that was between the USSR and America. And then in 2013, the classified annex of that treaty got declassified. You can find it online at George Washington University National Security Archives. But it gives the nuke flash, like the red line, like code to say it was like Adam 222, Adam 333.

41:51And that's all declassified. And he would send that to the Kremlin like, hey, we see fucking weird shit around Placesk. It's not us. It's not a false flag. And vice versa. And so there was a red line comms for UAP activity between Russia and the U.S. And of course, Russia and U.S. during the Cold War had a mutual notification treaty for a space launch vehicle and ICBM launches, etc. Weirdly enough, we've never had that with China. Even to this day, we don't have a mutual. This is crazy. We don't have a mutual notification if they're going to do like a submarine launch ballistic missile test, you know, off their coast.

42:31they're not obligated by treaty to tell us. And sometimes they don't with certain national security activities. And so Northern Command, NORAD, Missile Warning Center, other places, NSA Def Smack in Laurel, Maryland have to be on their A-game to make sure it was a test because the Chinese aren't obligated to tell us. And a crazy story in that regard, the Indians did something like that to us. I was on duty in the NRO operations center. And by the way, I got this clear through security. So, you know, NRO, don't shank me. Basically, there was an unexpected Indian missile test that hit one of their satellites in 2019.

43:16It was like March of 2019. Hit one of our satellites? Oh, no, not our. One of their defunct weather satellites. Yeah, their own defunct weather satellite. On purpose or an accident? On purpose. They shot down one of their own satellites. And they didn't tell us. I remember in my office, I had all these different phones. I'm like calling the embassy, all this. I'm like, what the fuck? You know, and because we were worried at the NRO about the debris because we fly spy satellites. That's the mission of the National Reconnaissance Office. And I was the backup director of intelligence as a reservist at the operations center where I was, you know, also handling the PDB for the director.

43:49And I, you know, led the director's briefing team. and you know i'm like going to the orbital analysts on the watch floor with all the crazy screens like calculate the the debris field you know let me know if we have to maneuver something and blah blah blah and i'm like running up to the director's office in my uniform you know out of breath i'm like holy shit you know um and it was kind of a big deal and that's publicly you know you can google that now and um i remember when that went down it was pretty crazy so no it sounds completely insane Yeah. So are there other countries besides China, Russia and us that supposedly have access to these vehicles?

44:27Yeah. Which other countries? Can you say? That I don't want to get into because that gets into some sensitive stuff. Right. Supposedly, this is like one of the best legends that there is a craft that's so large they couldn't move it. So they had to make a building around it. And supposedly in Korea. I don't know. Oh, yeah, you do know. How dare you? But you've heard that rumor, I'm sure, online. I've heard that rumor online, yeah. Yeah. You don't know anything about that? Yeah. We'll let the federal government do that. Do you have any personal experience with any of this stuff? You know, it's funny you ask that.

45:02I, as far as I can remember, I have no experience with the phenomenon. Like, a lot of people in this, I guess, ufology or whatever you want to call it, they have that personal experience. Like, oh, yeah, when I was a kid, I saw an orb or whatever. And I have zero – I've seen a couple interesting things in the sky that could have been satellite passes. I've been an amateur astronomer. Besides having a physics degree, I've been an amateur astronomer since I was like in middle school, like 12, 13 years old. And I still have never seen anything in my personal life in a stupendous nature. I've never had any kind of spooky woo stuff happen.

45:40Never been visited. No. And that's why like I was open to this. You know, I'm a child of the 80s. Well, I grew up, I was born in the 80s. You know, most of my childhood was in the 90s. And, you know, I watched X-Files and Star Trek Next Gen. And, of course, I'm like, you know, I'm a precocious teen reading, like, Brief History Time and, you know, Isaac Asimov. And I'm learning about the Drake equation. I'm like, there's probably life, but who knows? And I'm open to it. And then, you know, when I got into the intelligence community, that's, like, the first thing I looked up, like, on the web. I'm, like, on the computer.

46:12I'm like, I go on to a certain database. I'm like typing in Area 51, you know, UFO. Like everybody's done that who's gone through Intel school, whether they admit it or not. And, of course, I didn't see anything or anything. The only thing I bumped into early in my career in like 2009, I remember reading the OSAP, the Defense Intelligence Reference Documents, the DIRDs. And at the time, I had no idea what they were doing. It turns out it was obviously UAP related, but I was reading, why is the DIA looking into magneto hydrodynamic propulsion and cloaking and all this other stuff? And, of course, I find out later what it was.

46:50But I had absolutely no personal experience and even professionally for most of my career. Now, I found out behind the scenes later, like, oh, you remember that top secret program you're working on, Dave? if you were actually looking for UAP and you didn't know it. I'm like, what? And, of course, you know, I find out and I learn about, you know, how they hit all this infrastructure and they used a lot of conventional national security intelligence collection architecture to basically facilitate this crash retrieval program, which makes sense because they're not going to reinvent the wheel and, you know, totally have a separate infrastructure to use to, like, figure out if stuff crashed, activity, et cetera.

47:32Right. And, you know, early, I would say about 10 years into my career, I remember some imagery analysts saying, hey, Dave, you know, like they told us to airbrush some stuff out of photos and stuff. And it was round. And I'm like, OK, dude, well, maybe that's something you're not cleared to or whatever. And I do remember that. And I had some suspicious recruitment earlier in my career, too. I was on some really sensitive stuff that I ended up finding out it was directly adjacent to the program. And I went through this whole like smoking man recruitment thing for a year and was told I was going to get these kind of bizarre accesses.

48:13I'm like, what are you talking about? And ultimately, I was never recruited. And I kind of just like put filed that in the back of my brain for years. But like I've said before, it wasn't until like spring of 2017, I was at the CIA briefing, the deputy director staff on a bunch of DOD classified programs. And the chief of a very sensitive office at the agency pulled me aside and was like, Dave, what do you know about UFOs? Like, I hear there's like a program at the Pentagon and all that. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm briefed almost every DOD program at the time, by the way, and hundreds of programs in the intelligence community because I was in a position of very high trust.

48:51And I'm very patriotic and I'm very humbled that I was in a position like that in my 30s. And I didn't think anything of it until this subject got more popularized, people in public, Tom DeLonge, TTSA and all that. And then I was professionally interested but not really working on it in 2018. And then early in 19 is when I got brought on as the NRO rep to the then Navy task force, which became the DOD's UAP task force. That's kind of my origin story. And so I was always – I've always been curious, but I never saw evidence and I never had any personal experience with the phenomenon that kind of colors my judgment on this, I guess.

49:34So I'm sure you're aware of Hal Puthoff when he was tasked by the Bush administration along with a bunch of other thinkers to try to come up with pros and cons for disclosure. Yeah, I knew some other people in that meeting, and I verified that meeting took place. And even Arrow admitted in their Volume 1 report, which was horrible, that's a long story, painful, that it took place, but it was just a hypothetical scenario at a federally funded research and development center in Northern Virginia. What year was this? 2004. It was like November of 2004. And it's like, but why was it hypothetical if it's not real?

50:13So nobody explains that. And obviously the story is, you know, Steve Hadley, who was the National Security Advisor, sponsored it. I believe Hadley denies it. But, you know, who knows if Steve would tell the truth on that just because of the sensitivity. And so for people that don't know what happened, supposedly they brought in a bunch of different thought leaders and they gave them a pro and a con side. Like what would be negatively affected by disclosure? What would be positively affected by disclosure? and attach a numerical value to each thing. Correct. They had like a computer system there that like tabulated everything from what I know talking to other attendees.

50:51And virtually every one of them had more negative than positive. And so the decision was made to not disclose. Well, yeah. And the main decision, if I remember correctly, was the federal contracts fraud. Well, that could be debated in the Supreme Court, but they realized a lot of – so this another issue of disclosure besides the ontological shock and people can't handling it and like misappropriation of funds yeah and misappropriation of funds and all that it's oh so these set of contractors got sole source contracts and exclusive access to this for internal research and development where they figure out something and then sell it back to the government etc for all these decades what about my mid-level small business and my contractor and blah blah blah and so you're gonna they were afraid that you would see legal challenges going to the Supreme Court in violation of what they call the DFARS, the Defense Federal Acquisition Regulations.

51:46And the government would be liable for, who fucking knows, billions of dollars worth of monies that they spent on this to these contractor partners that got in back in the day and like, well, we're not exposing any more people, we're locking it down. And what they call a J &A, justification and approval for a sole source contract, this is a race, national security, Like we can't expose any more people to this. And of course, that also causes a brain drain and group think and actually hurts the defense industrial base. But that was the main reason it wasn't. Oh, you know, upcoming millennials that are turning 18 can't handle it.

52:25It was like, yeah, we're kind of culpable and kind of a fucked up contractual relationship. And that's going to be something that the Trump administration is going to have to deal with. It's like, well, how do I reorient the defense and industrial base? I mean, this could trigger a golden era of innovation in America. More people get to play. You overtly can take the basic information that's not sensitive and put it into academia. Right. So you have undergraduate, graduate, postdoctoral programs. And you actually create this like more educated workforce to actually benefit national security. But in China doesn't have this issue.

52:59They're pulling people from – pick a university in China, Nanjing, whatever university, and they're sucking them into these programs. But in America, we don't have that kind of permissive totalitarian environment. Well, in China, they probably don't have the issue with misappropriation of funds and lying to Congress. No, CCP, baby. Do whatever you want. They do whatever they want. So they don't have to worry about liability. So this is one of the things that came up in that film Age of Disclosure. That's right. that you're going to have to make some sort of an amnesty program. Yeah, and I am for that as long as it's like use immunity for specific testimony.

53:39As long as it doesn't cover like this other shit that you're talking about. Like my – and of course I know who's watching people clearly that are from this ecosystem. I don't expect that. Everybody's been basically good Americans. There's a small cast of characters that have done unspeakable things. I mean, hell, they wanted to fucking kill me. This is like, it's disturbing. And you wonder why I had to become a whistleblower. I didn't want to do this shit. But like I was pushed over the edge to do that. You know, I digress. But like besides like blue collar, really fucked up criminal shits, which, you know, once again, there is a judicial justice process in America.

54:18You know, we're not going to do street justice here. We will, you know, take care of that professionally. Like I took care of the other criminal stuff I found out professionally. I'm like, look, I'm, you know, and when I was doing that, I mean, I was meeting people, body armor, armed with colleagues of mine that were, you know, rolling heavy too. And like it was a very serious part of my investigation. But, yeah, I believe in amnesty, but I think we need to do it like a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, which was in post-apartheid South Africa in the 90s where you had, you know, some white farmer comes in.

54:52And it's like, yeah, I murdered a bunch of black people or whatever. And it's like, OK, thank you for telling us that. You're good. You know, don't do it again and move on. I mean, I'm distilling it down, but that's essentially what the TRC in South Africa was. And I think something like that would be very additive and good because, I mean, I have friends that run the program. They're great guys. They're bros, you know, and gals. And they, you know, were signed paperwork. You know, it was like if you, you know, divulge this, it's under penalty of treason. You can get 11 worth or capital punishment.

55:24Okay. Let's break down what you know and what you can say. What are these things and what are they capable of? So there's like physical and non-physical, call it UAP and intelligence we're likely dealing with. So, for example, the orbs, could that be sentient plasmoid? Possibly. Sentient plasmoid. So plasma that has consciousness. Yeah. In some way, and that could be like you're seeing the other side of some sort of wormhole and it's some other intelligence shooting this. Like I'll call it like plasmoidic probe into our existence. I mean this is, of course, a theoretical framework. And once again, I don't have a Ph.D.

56:07in astrophysics. But it's theoretical that there is a life form that is a plasma-based life form. And there's already papers on the open internet about this. A couple years ago, what's the title of the paper? They wrote about this possibility. So this is a academic assessment of a possibility of the orbs. Now, could the orbs actually be physical craft, but they have a sheath of plasma around it? Interestingly enough, and OSAP did a defense intelligence reference document on magnetohydrodynamic propulsion, which if you remember the movie The Hunt for Red October, that's the caterpillar drive on the Russian submarine, you know, back in the day.

56:49And of course, with MHD, you can also do it, you have to use a conductive fluid, either salt, seawater that has salt in it, or you could do it in the air, but you have to create a plasma. And you steer the plasma, it's called the Lorentz force. It's basically of a perpendicular magnetic field, a large amount of electricity, and you can basically, through the Lorentz force, which is like ionic propulsion, sort of, control it in the atmosphere as well. And you can, you know, read papers on that and IEEE and other stuff like that. And so one of the byproducts of an air-breathing MHD system is plasma around it.

57:29So depending on the size of the orb, it is conceivable that there's a physical craft behind it as well, just as an artifact of the propulsion system. Once again, that's a theory, I'm sure the program knows, and that will be communicated at a later date. But like, you know, So this theory about sentient plasma, is it the idea that we have a very narrow-minded view of what life can be and that life as it evolved in other places, in other parts of the universe? Went non-corporeal at some point. Like the meat suit sucks. We're going to be energetic. This is an ultimate expression of both technology and at least enhanced evolution that eventually consciousness is isolated or consciousness may be ubiquitous and exists in everything anyway.

58:23Yeah, certainly. And I'm not the expert in – I would say the consciousness theory, I like the Penrose-Hamerov ORC OR theory, which is the microtubules, the room temperature. So microtubules are in neurons of the brain. And you have this like room temperature quantum system that can collapse the wave function without an observer. And that's what Roger Penrose and Stuart Hamerov. And I've talked to Hamerov. Crazy smart guy. He's an anesthesiologist by training. And Penrose obviously is a very famous mathematician and physics legend. And that's how they view consciousness. I'm not saying that's the exact model.

59:00I happen to prefer it because it's very trippy and very interesting and does explain spooky action and like telepathy because, oh, well, if it's just a quantum system, then I'm like quantumly entangled. Oh, that makes sense now. Like why remote viewing and other stuff works. Yeah. OK. So you have some sort of plasma based intelligence. Yeah. And then what else? so obviously there has been the physical craft of all different flavors like i've talked about it you know the tic tacs are real there's eggs there's different types of discs there's boot heel sunfish looking things um boomerangs crescent moon looking uh craft as well and obviously all those have different um origins in terms of pilots and whatnot there's a there's a little bit of overlap.

59:51It's almost like certain people like the Porsche 911 or Ford Mustang, they kind of build the same shape. And that's probably indicative of the technology or the propulsion system. I'm not an expert in exactly why that is. And yeah, we've recovered, you know, several different types. And it's a, it's once again, it's a taxonomy where it's almost like, like not all white people look the same, right? Same idea where you might have like a species per se, But then there's sort of like subsets. Right. Now, is there a theory or is there information based on where these things are from and that they're different ones are from different places?

1:00:31There is, but I never got access to that. And even if the information was – once again, how would you, like, confirm that? As a skeptical former human intelligence officer, you have some sort of NHI communicating to you, oh, I'm from Star System X, Y, and Z. Right. Cool. Is that denial and deception, you know, activities? Are you misdirecting? You're from somewhere else. So even if they said they told us, how would you verify that? I mean, there's certainly obviously ways. And but some of it seems, once again, extraterrestrial is part of the pie here, right? There's a you know, there's extraterrestrial and other things.

1:01:14And I it does seem like a lot of it's been here for a while and also seems so similar to us that I have questions. And once again, this isn't rhetorical. well, I don't know the answer. It's like, well, is this bioengineered? Is this a break from our tree? Is this some sort of other technology, like chameleon type technology, if you will? I don't know the answer to that. So I think that's... What are the prevailing theories amongst the people that are working on this? Yeah. Like, do they have answers or do they just have theories? I am not certain of that because I do not have that level of knowledge.

1:01:54And as the government rolls that out, I'm happy to, you know, parse that with American people in public and kind of explain my opinion on things as gaps in information for myself is filled in. Because I'm not omnipotent. I didn't have full access. And I only know what I know. And that's why I've treated this with such reverence because even me going public, I'm like, fuck, I don't know what this is going to trigger. Besides my own personal safety, which clearly I was under duress and I had to even resign my Air Force commission, didn't even fully retire. And I'm trying to get that fixed. I filed something with the Air Force board a year ago so I can actually retire and have my benefits because I miss my promotional lieutenant colonel and other stuff.

1:02:39But I digress. But certainly there is such similarity that there was concern from a genomic perspective. And there was work on that to compare genomes. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer to that and what they found out. Work to compare genomes from biological samples? Yeah, dead cadavers. Yeah. So that's real? Oh, 100%. So there are dead? Oh, yeah. I know that for sure. How do you know that for sure? I got to see the audiovisual on that stuff. You got to see what? Yeah. So I got to be a little vague only because I want to protect the sources because it may indicate a specific activity or operation.

1:03:20And these people were very patriotic and they were just dead cadavers on the ground because it was a retrieval activity. You saw them physically or you saw video of them? Video. Video. Yeah. So you saw a dead cadaver that was at a crash? Yes. So they filmed the crash and they filmed these cadavers. Yeah. How old is this footage? I don't want to say. Okay. It's contemporary. It's contemporary. Yeah, but I don't want to reveal a particular operation because it narrows it down. Right. But it's clear. It's not like you're looking at the 1950s black and white. Yeah. It's clear. And do know, you know, when I get that kind of information, you know, I'm like, tell me what it is, what happened.

1:04:06And I put it out for collection, so to speak, and then I confirm it independently. Because I was very allergic to any kind of deception, right? Because in the advent of AI, sore AI, you can create a very realistic. And so I was very anal retentive when I was given documents, audiovisual, et cetera. And I sat on that stuff for like years until I felt comfortable with that not being some sort of limited hangout or deception activity. So, yeah. What did it look like? Human looking. How human? Very. Like, like looked like a human or looked similar to a human? Very. Very beautiful. Beautiful. What color was the skin?

1:04:51Bluish white. Like Avatar? It wasn't super close. No, no, no, no, no. Like someone who drowned? Like a pale sort of albino. And it's interesting, and I said this in another interview that's not out yet, and God willing, this is my last interview for a while, hopefully in a predisclosure environment. And General McCaslin, when he was talking to DeLong – and this is a public record. Tom's talked about it on, I think, your show and other interviews where he always told Tom, think of the Greek gods. And – oh, true. You look it up. And now I kind of understand what he meant. But General McCaslin, who disappeared within a week of Trump giving the declassification order on UAP in February 2026.

1:05:34There's a lot of reasons why McCaslin's disappearance was very consistent. How so? He walked out of his residence in Albuquerque and vanished. Oh, that's right. That guy. Yeah. Yeah. And nobody knows. And I, you know, I have a relationship, obviously, with Justice. And nobody knows what fucking happened to the guy. And he left shit home so he couldn't be tracked. I think his phone was left, but, you know, one of his firearms was missing. It's very weird. Right. He left without his phone. Yeah. Yeah. That was one of the weird parts about it. Yeah. And once again, he was going on a trip with like 18 of his friends.

1:06:12He went to REI the day before to get like a medical kit and other supplies. And I mean, obviously his wife's discussion about him, the body cam footage is public. And, you know, he had some mental health issues, nothing major and some aging type issues. But she didn't think, you know, he was going to like kill himself or whatever. So, I mean, you never know. And I've had friends, unfortunately, pass away through suicide in the military. But it's very bizarre. And it's when within a week of Trump that coming out and just say a lot about General McCaslin. Well, there's quite a few scientists that were connected to UAP disclosure or UAP potential back engineering projects or mysterious projects.

1:06:59Possibly. I think. Do you think there was more like. To be fair, it was a little overblown. And I don't think there was a ton of correlation. Like one was like a female that worked at Air Force Research Lab when McCaslin was a commander. I think that was one of them. Well, I mean, there's a lot of people that work at Air Force Research Lab. That doesn't mean it's necessarily related to the topic. But didn't she have – didn't that one particular lady, if it's the same person, didn't she have some sort of research that was on material science? That sounds correct. I'm not totally conversant on all the people that disappeared.

1:07:30The only one besides McCaslin that was very concerning to me was my Air Force friend that died mysteriously about two years ago. And it's an open investigation, so I won't get into all the gory detail in my assessments. I mean, it's binary. It's either a very tragic thing, either self-harm or otherwise, or it was something else. And my friend, his name's Matthew Sullivan, call sign Quake in the Air Force. Him and I were on active duty together. He was on the program. And he was one of my sources. And once again, I don't name people, but like, unfortunately, it's passed. So I want to make that clear.

1:08:16This video, do you think this will be a part of disclosure? That we'll get to see this video of these dead bodies? Probably. Probably. so there's a so this is a lot of audio visual stuff the problem with the the with the current climate like you're going to have to wheel out the physical evidence too because people are the trust in government is so low right now like you could show a video but people are going to be like oh well that's just the u.s government fucking with us and you're going to have to curate a wheel out literally like you know put it in the uvar hazy center the missonian and then give the biological samples to Eric Weinstein, who I know he wants it.

1:08:54Why would you give it to him? Well, he says he has people to test it. I have people to test it, too. Give it to me. I'm just saying that to make fun of him. There should be a way that human beings, other than the government, can look at this stuff. Well, there needs to be an independent verification process. Right. Now, is this stuff – so this is contemporary, this dead body thing. And so this is a fairly recent crash. And did these things have all the characteristics of a human being? Did they have ears and a nose? Yeah, as far as I can recall. And it wasn't like ultra close-up. What color did they have hair?

1:09:36Yeah. Dead hair. What color was their hair? It was like grayish and all that. The problem is, I don't want to give the nature of the video, it wasn't super close up. It was like during the operation. So it's not like. During the operation of retrieval. Yeah. Okay. And then they had these things. So what is your understanding of what happens to these bodies? Oh, they're kept for analysis. How do they keep them? They freeze them? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know the exact process. I'm not a biologist, but they do put it in some sort of preservation status. Huh. Yeah. So was that the most compelling thing you saw?

1:10:17Yes, because, you know, it couples with, you know, both the craft and the alleged, you know, occupants. And there was some other stuff in that area that I got to be careful talking about because it's so specific that it'll easily ID the, you know, the patriot that helped me on that. and once again I want the public to see all this stuff don't take my word for it plead with the president to make sure this comes out he's really courageous to do so and I hope this all comes out when you say contemporary you mean last 20 years more recent? I don't even want to characterize it but it's contemporary and then when you say Greek gods do these creatures actually look like something special like not just like a regular person you said beautiful Yeah, just very oddly.

1:11:04And it's been a while, but I'm just trying to visualize in my mind. It was just very, very beautiful. Were they wearing an outfit? It looked like it, like some kind of form-fitting thing, but I didn't get a good look at it. Like spandex? I don't know. I didn't get a good look at it, honestly. You didn't? No. I mean, it was like a pan. Okay, so they didn't even focus on the bodies? They're just like, oh, there's a body. No, because people had a job to do. Right. Did you worry that that's a psyop, that you're being shown something that's horseshit? Well, like I said, I was very careful with that and confirmed it through other sources and methods to make sure it wasn't some sort of hangout from some government element trying to sway me one way or the other.

1:11:44So you independently verified that there was an event? Yeah, I did. Okay. And then there's footage of this event. And in this footage of this event, how many bodies were there? I think three or four is what I saw. I don't know what the total was. Did they have gender? um looked amorphous to me but once again it was a pan really wasn't yeah okay yeah long hair short hair long all of them yeah hmm that i can recall yeah the greek gods thing is very weird it's weird and it's a weird comparison like you stop and think about that yeah well why were the greek gods so beautiful it's funny you say that because like i think about like breakaway human i mean once again, I'm just, I'm just, uh, or maybe even an original civilization that existed before.

1:12:28Yeah. There's more people are leaning in that direction when they start looking at some of the stuff that's underneath the pyramids and some of the weird structures that they're finding all over the earth. Like how, how are these things? We had a whole podcast yesterday about it. It's like, how are these things made? Who made these things? Like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, obviously I They follow Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson just casually. And I do have not fears, but I have questions about some sort of breakaway human civilization. And that explains some of this. Or it's bioengineered because for them to develop naturally, say, off planet, say it's extraterrestrial, that it looks almost dead ringer like us.

1:13:11That doesn't make any sense to me. Well, does it make sense if we're engineered? Then it makes sense. That is certainly a possibility. I have questions about that too. This is what Bob Lazar believes. I had a long conversation with him about that. He thinks that human beings are a product of genetic, some sort of manipulation. And I think hypothetically if that ended up being verified in some way, shape, or form, how does that change humanity? What does it mean to be human? And I think there's a lot of deep human sovereignty and other questions on that if that ends up being the case. Well, it gets weird because we're willing to believe that an omnipotent God created us out of nothing.

1:13:53That's cool. But the idea that we were visited by what's essentially almost God-like in their powers and abilities, some creature from somewhere else or some being, some super hyper-intelligent being from somewhere else. And they manipulated us. That bothers us. I know. And it's weird. My biggest regret was not getting access to like the biological assessment reports and stuff like that. I was getting enough spears thrown my way and I was, you know, in literal danger. So I unfortunately wasn't able to kind of, you know, get access to that stuff. Have you talked to anybody who did get access to it?

1:14:28Um, not on that side of the program in terms of like the scientists analyzing the bodies. No, I just, I know people that are good friends of mine that were on retrievals and saw them as well in person. And once again, I'm like comparing like, did it look like this? Did this happen? Was it this type of craft? Do they vary in terms of what they saw? Yes. And some of my colleagues saw them alive as well. Yeah. What did they see alive? Like the Greek god-looking ones? No. It's the pop culture. I can't wait. I want to talk about this. Like greys? Reptilian-looking. Reptilian. The greys, yes, as well.

1:15:11Those are real. Once again, the aerial school phenomenon in 1994, very well-documented mass sighting. Is that Zimbabwe? Yeah, near a uranium mine. Ooh. And they saw small gray beings coming out of a lenticular discraft. once again. This is why it's almost like not that shocking. It's like, yeah, they look like that. No shit. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace. I know because I use it. That's right. JoeRogan.com is powered by Squarespace. It has all the features that you need to create a standout website, like an AI enhanced website builder, SEO optimization tools, and seamless checkouts with mobile pay links.

1:15:57Head to squarespace.com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use the offer code Rogan to save 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time. So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist. And trust me, I know I buy one, the farmer's dog.

1:16:37I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human grade food. The farmer's dog makes fresh food for dogs and my dogs love it. Their The recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try The Farmer's Dog today and get 50 % off your first box of fresh, healthy food.

1:17:19Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com slash rogan. This offer is for new customers only. Well, that story has been going on for a long time and that iconic. The problem with iconic imagery is that now you have it in your head what to expect. And that was from the movie Contact. Remember the movie Contact? It showed itself. Great movie. Great movie. I know my boy Amar. I got him hooked on that movie. He watches it every quarter. It's a phenomenal movie. But there's a scene in the movie where the alien shows itself as Jodie Foster's dad. I know. Because that's something that she can handle.

1:17:59And that's what it's funny you say that. That's what if they're bioengineered, then that makes sense because of that ease of contact, ease of communication. Also less ontologically shocking. It's familiar. Right. Right. And and I think as this rolls out, I think the American people need to think about like, OK, well, if, you know, I'm presented with this reality, how would I react? You know, I just think of them personally as like it's like my West Virginian cousins. You know, it's like a different part of the family, you know, but but I'm cool with them. And I'll just I'll chill with them, you know, whatever.

1:18:32And I'm a nerd. Like, do you know how bad I want to just like hang out with them? Oh, me, too. Like, of course. Not that I have like a personal bias for President Trump to do this, but like just like any American, I like I want to know more. Of course. I want to meet them. I want to communicate. Well, I think it's just it's wrong for some people to have access to this information because I think this is different than any other kind of secret information. I know. I think its weight and its significance and impact on the human race in general. I mean, I demand. We should know. You shouldn't – there shouldn't be a group of unelected bureaucrats and defense contractors that have access to this stuff and the general public doesn't.

1:19:19So they have a completely different map of the world than we do. I know. And I just think about the unfortunate lies and how society has progressed over the last several decades and where we could have been if this was handled back in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Right. And once again, it shouldn't even be me doing this. It's like I saw a little bit of crazy shit. I learned some stuff. I met with some of the most senior people in government to confirm all this, you know, at the highest, highest, highest level. And it's me. Like, I'm just a dude. Like, I was a, you know, major in the Air Force and, you know, mid-level senior civilian in the IC.

1:19:56But unfortunately, I got stuck with this. And it wouldn't have happened unless the small crew, you know, honestly pushed me over the edge. And, you know, I was an unbelievable duress and I ended up having to go public. So tell me more about these reptilians that your friend encountered. They were alive. Yeah. So they were alive post-crash? Yes. Why do these things keep fucking crashing? So some of it is NHI versus NHI. What? Yeah. They wore in the sky. Isn't that in the... You think it's like, would they get along? They're so advanced. But we have records of them fucking around with each other.

1:20:37Is that in the Mahabharata or the Bhagavad Gita? I don't know. There's like talk about sky wars in ancient Hindu texts. Oh, yeah, in the Vedic texts, the blue people. And I know that's why you asked blue. I don't recall them being that blue, but, you know. Right. I got a short little look. Maybe when they're alive, they're in darker. Well, that is true. There's like a post-mortem change in their affect. Sure, like people. That's what happens with people. That is true because as they were struggling and then died, obviously their affect changed. Now, this friend that encountered – first of all, we'll go to the Greek god people first.

1:21:17What did their craft look like? Boomerang, crescent moon usually. Not all the time. It's kind of like once I go back. Some people like to drive the Porsche 911. That tends to be not all the time. But that's what they like to roll up in. They talk about them as the tall whites. Yeah. Were they tall? Were they large? Look tall to me. I didn't have like. But hard to tell because you don't. I didn't have a ground reference really. I would say at least human size. They could be like. Just like very similar to humans to you. Yeah, that could be my big ass of 6 '6". But like the. They looked big. Similar to humans.

1:21:58I think so. And there might be taller. once again I'm sure there's other stuff I don't know about I'm sure there's other variants of them too that look more towards like the classic um what is it in ufology like Nordic or you know tall whites uh-huh that are probably even taller if some of those uh experiencer stories are true which once again as long as that source is credible that might be a thing so I think we need to be prepared to kind of that being a thing i don't know yeah that makes sense yeah now the reptilian craft what did that thing look like uh that one is tic-tac looking uh-oh yeah i was hoping they were the cool ones the reptilian ones are the ones that everyone's terrified yeah and once again like we're doing like and of course it's not always a tic-tac once again kind of like what i said but like that tends to be them from what i understand obviously hopefully i'm not wrong but i'm you know pretty good sourcing on that uh when you see like um malevolent behavior right it's like well that's a humanistic lens you're seeing like a animal lash out and captivity captivity kind of thing or they're in duress they're having an emotional experience etc and it's like you know are they actually scary or is it just because of the situations we've been in with them and so we're kind of biased and all right of course yeah and so these reptilians what did they look like now i've never seen them personally your friend described it's like very almost like um seven foot tall plus uh sort of gorilla looking gorilla looking scaly skin though and reptile gorillas but there's multiple types there's ones that are are more humanoid looking so there's multiple types of reptilians yeah and i'm not an expert on that one that's once again i never saw it in person they get the exact uh you know see if there's a artist rendition yeah of course you are yeah and once again it sounds it sounds so schizo like even for me as a gorilla with scales ex-deep state intel officer i'm like i cannot fucking believe i'm talking about this shit on joe rogan scare scaly gorilla i know i mean it sounds schizo and it's like coming from somebody like me you know who you know is a credible person has been in government It's like, I'm going to be that guy.

1:24:20I'm going to be that guy. And then down the road, people will review Joe Rogan. And he's like, that motherfucker? We thought he was crazy. But what do you know? It's true. Well, of course, if there are things from somewhere else, you're going to sound crazy describing any of them. Because it's so outside my experience. Because I never had some kind of woo thing growing up or some sort of interaction with the phenomenon. on. So it, it, it, it feels so outside my personal comfort level and experience because, um, I'm relying on the personal experience of others, you know, audiovisual stuff. And it still feels like I'm watching a movie.

1:24:54Like, it's like, is that, is it real? I mean, I know it is, but like, it's, I have a cognitive dissonance a little bit, you know? So. And how are you able to watch this video? Do they have to put you into a secret room? Yeah. I won't get into the exact way it went down, But we'll just say it was kind of sketchy, but to keep everybody safe. And so there apparently is NHI versus NHI warfare. We've documented that. Documented it. In collection, what we perceive as warfare. It's conflict. Yeah, it looks like conflict. It smells like conflict. Is this some other kind of weird shit? I don't know. And there's maybe an assessment on that.

1:25:34And when this reptilian craft crashed, the assumption was that it was some sort of conflict? Because I would imagine that they're the ones you'd have to worry about. Correct, because there was dead greys there, too. Oh. So the greys and the reptilians were duking it out? Yeah. I guess. I guess. You know, I know the people who were there. This sounds fucking insane, David. It sounds fucking crazy. And once again, I don't want to get in too many specifics because this is a very unique. There's a couple of unique retrievals out there that to protect the innocents and people that have risked their fucking lives.

1:26:12Because a lot of the people that came to you with that kind of information, I mean, they were physically threatened like me and all that. And so like me going public was taking it for the team because I was able to create this umbrella of tacit protection in case somebody got fucked with. Now, unfortunately, my friend Matt, who knows what happened to him, but tragically, he died mysteriously. Now, these reptilians, what was their craft like? Oh, like I said, the Tic Tac stuff. And was their craft crashed into the ground, like broken up? Yeah. Okay. It was like wedged into a hill. Like had it been hit with something?

1:26:50I don't remember exactly what happened in that regard, but it did crash. So I don't want to misspeak on what exactly happened. And how many times has this happened, if you had to guess? I don't know the total number of adversarial conflict crashes, but it seems to be at least a dozen or two. So at least a dozen or two adversarial crashes. And then there's the high-altitude nuclear tests, right? You're aware of those, right? Okay. So there's been a lot of speculation that during those high altitude nuclear tests that crafts that didn't know it was coming got rocked. Do you know anything about that?

1:27:37That's an area that I'll let the government handle. That's because it gets into vulnerabilities and what the U.S. has figured out. So that just gets a sensitive area. But that's something I'm sure that'll come out in this process. So you can't talk about that? Is that what you're saying? Yeah, just because it gets into U.S. capabilities and what we figured out in terms of— Well, this is all from the 50s, right? Yeah, but we still got nukes and we still got those kind of weapons stashed away. You're aware of those—what was it, Jamie? Was it a telescope that they were taking photographs of the stars and they were doing it with—do you know what I'm talking about?

1:28:19All the dots popped up thing. Yes. I guess that's like two or three weeks ago. Right. We talked about that a couple of weeks ago. It was an observatory. And the observatory has these old plates of images that they took of the sky. Oh, is this Beatrice's work? Yes. The Vasco? Yes. Yeah, I read it. Very interesting. Yes. It's hard to make an exact conclusion if it's UAP, but it's really great original scholarship. And I applaud her for doing that. But there appeared to be moving, reflective things that were outside of our atmosphere that they were taking images of. They were not static. They were not stars.

1:28:59Pre-Sputnik, too. That was the important thing. Yes, pre-Sputnik. Very important because there was no satellites at the time. This was images that they took of the sky that showed things that were reflective that seemed to be metallic, allegedly. And if I remember her paper correctly with her co-authors, it also – there were cluster concentrations over sensitive nuclear facilities and nuclear testing.

1:29:23Chronological temporal correlation as well. So data shows unidentified lights and archival astronomy images were 68 percent more likely to be imaged 24 hours after a nuclear weapons test. Yeah, like I was saying. Right. So this is chronologically like we have these nuclear weapons tests, including these high altitude detonations like Operation Starfish Prime. Yeah. We detonate these things. And then all of a sudden these crafts start showing up like, hey, what are these fucking crazy monkeys up to? It does seem like there was a heightened amount of activity once we started testing nuclear weapons.

1:29:58Oh, yeah. Obviously, this phenomenon is old. It's interacted with man in antiquity. Jacques Vallée's scholarship on that, Passport to Mangonia. Yes. That's why the names of our rooms at the comedy club are Fat Man and Little Boy. Oh, nice. Yeah. Because that's what ushered, because it's the comedy mothership. It's a UFOs-based thing. Yeah, if you go to the Air Force Museum, they have the Enola Gay there, I think. Is that right? It's one of the planes. Oh, wow. My alma mater is going to crucify me for getting that Air Force history wrong at the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio. Wow. It's pretty cool.

1:30:29They have a mock-up of the little boy and fat man bombs. So you can see how big they were. You're like, holy shit, that was big. One of the things that Lazar said is that one of the objects they were working with was very old. He said that they had somehow – that it was told to him that it was retrieved from an archaeological dig. I don't know about his specific story and his exposure, but the archaeological thing, that is a thing. Are you aware of the labyrinth at Hawara in Egypt? No. What is that? Okay. Is that the one where there's a metallic object? Yes. But what's-his-face won't let people go in it from the objection?

1:31:10Well, it's complicated. It's a little more complicated than won't let them, but there's definitely resistance to it. So these labyrinths, this incredible compound that's underground was documented by Herodotus, and he said it was greater than Giza. He said it was much more spectacular construction. Wow. So now they know from ground penetrating radar that these cavities in the ground, these symmetrical rooms exist. They know where they are and they know why they're flooded. So they're flooded because during the 1960s, they built a dam to divert water for agriculture. And when they did, they changed the water table and it flooded this labyrinth area.

1:31:50And when they use this ground penetrating radar and I think it's radio tomography and a bunch of the different ways of – one of the things they found was a 40-meter long metallic object that's in some sort of – is it in an atrium? Like it's in some sort of a large room? I've heard of – I've seen a video about this. You're recalling some stuff I've seen just casually online. Like just imagine if that's what that is. It's like the movie Stargate with Kurt Russell. If these people had been worshiping this craft and so much so that they built this incredible temple and put it in the center of their temple.

1:32:33It's a 40 meter long metallic object. And the metal apparently is of unknown origin. Like they don't know what the metal is. It's not registering as copper. It's not registering as steel or iron rather. They don't know what it is. Interesting. Interesting. It's fucking weird. Yeah. I mean, I won't be surprised that some ancient civilizations were essentially cargo cults, you know, for these visitors. That is most likely true in many cases, not all. And, of course, that gets into theological areas that are touchy. But I do think that that's probably the case. The central object is hard to classify.

1:33:12It appears metallic, not stone or wood. I named it Dippy after the giant Diplodica skeleton in the Hintze Hall of London's Natural History Museum. It could be anything. Its shape resembles those tic-tac hard mints. It might also be an upright disc or even a colossal Shen ring, the ancient Egyptian symbol representing the eternal cycle of creation. The big object alone raises profound questions. How did it get there? Why is it there? So show him some of the artistic recreations of what it looked like underneath the ground. So this is all, you know, like I said, Herodotus wrote about this thousands of years ago.

1:33:58But now it's documented that these chambers and these pathways actually exist. And there had been people that had studied at least the upper surface levels of it as recently as like the 1800s. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But that, you know, through all like a lot of Egypt, there's a water under Giza. There's water under the pyramids. There's water under, you know, a lot of that stuff is flooded. And so this is what it looked like. This is all underground. it's fucking crazy because if this along with uh filipo beyond his work where it shows using that same uh satellite radio tomography that there's some sort of structure underneath the pyramids that goes over a kilometer into the ground is there easy access or is it just like a government denial the antiquities bureau whatever they call it well walking it or i think there's been some progress in terms of allowing exploration and I don't know the extent of it but I know that a lot of people are very hopeful that that progress is is going to be achieved like they're opening up this research and look this would be a giant boom to the tourism industry oh yeah I mean that's what they want I mean Egypt probably survives I don't know what percentage of their economy in Giza is tourism but it has to be massive yeah and you always hear interesting stories.

1:35:22I have an eclectic group of colleagues and you hear interesting stories. Is it the Queen's Chamber, the granite pillbox and people have had interesting experiences in there too and Well the King's Chamber, that sarcophagus Yeah, it's that like granite box The big perfectly cut granite box that also I think it mirrors the exact dimensions of the Ark of the Covenant Interesting That's crazy But I know people who've laid in it because they have to kind of pay the guard. It's like off hours. And what happens? And they just have like a weird transcendental experience. I mean, it's kind of woo. Once again, I've never experienced something like that.

1:36:02Let me lie down there, bro. That's a thing. That's a thing. I'll let you know who to talk to offline. How much do you think it costs to lay in the box? Maybe. A couple hundred bucks? Egypt, 20 grand maybe? 20 grand. Whoa. Yeah, 20 grand. You could like sleep there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's very strange because the structures themselves are incredibly strange. The structures themselves are so immense and so complex, and the methods of construction are completely unknown. And just the symmetry and the precision of the engineering is beyond comprehension for people that lived at the very – the most recent it could be is 4 ,500 years ago.

1:36:43And a lot of these people think it's far older than that. And we're finding that. I've been watching some of Graham Hancock's stuff. You just look at these megalithic architecture that's older than you think, the stuff in Turkey and the United States as well, in Ohio and Mississippi. And they're finding all these pyramid structures using synthetic aperture radar. So I am casually following it, and it does seem like we don't really even know our own history. and I think with all this coming out, there's going to be a huge rewriting of a lot of our ancient and modern history. Well, that's where it gets really weird.

1:37:19You know, Rep Paulina Luna was on the podcast. Oh, yeah. She was talking to me about the Book of Enoch. Yeah. I hadn't read it. She's like, you have to read it and I've read it twice now and I'm like, what in the fuck are they talking about? Like the Book of Enoch, which was also found with the Dead Sea Scrolls and Qumran And it refers to the watchers who came down and mated with daughters and created this race of giants. And it's like, what? This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. It may be hard to believe, but identity theft is the number one crime in America. Right now, millions of people are dealing with stolen accounts, fraudulent loans, and the exhausting process of proving who they are to banks, creditors, and credit bureaus.

1:38:05LifeLock helps you fight back. They monitor your personal and financial information, alerting you when something looks suspicious. And if identity theft does happen, LifeLock has live U.S.-based experts who step in and fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Don't fight that battle alone. Get LifeLock identity theft protection. Visit LifeLock.com and save up to 30 % your first year with promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE or go to lifelock.com slash JRE for 30 % off terms apply. This episode is brought to you by Chime. And I know people don't usually get excited about banking, but Chime is doing something different and it's worth paying attention to.

1:38:54In a recent survey, they ranked the number one choice for new checking accounts in America. That means real people, millions of them, are choosing this over traditional banks. That's because banking at Chime is fee-free. No monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and thousands of fee-free ATMs. But here's the real kicker. If you get their Chime card, it gives you 5 % cash back on a category you actually pick yourself. Your savings rate, crazy high. It's nine times the national average. They're calling it the most rewarding way to bank. Go to Chime.com slash Rogan. Takes a few minutes to sign up. Chime is a fintech, not a bank.

1:39:33banking services and chime card provided by chimes bank partners terms and limits apply go to chime.com slash disclosures for more details yeah and you think is like now when you're when all this comes out was that actually literal and you know right and of course the bible council nicaea was more of a political document before secular government and you know they got together like what are all the different books that we can agree upon that are good yeah what gets into the canon. And that's the thing about the book of Enoch is that it was, it was not put in there because it didn't jive with the Torah.

1:40:06Correct. Yeah. Which is like, okay, you fuckers. Imagine if that was in the Bible. Like if you go to church and you read about the watchers. Well, there's actually a lot of interesting stuff in the Bible. Like obviously that's another thing like, of course with, um, you know, I'm Catholic, uh, by growing up, CCD confirmation did the whole thing as a kid. And you see a lot of, uh, outspoken exorcists and other people right now saying, well, all this alien stuff is just diabolic deception and demons and all that kind of stuff. And I respect that opinion. And I do think what you perceive as a demon is a certain class of non-human or anomalous intelligence.

1:40:46And that is certainly a thing. But the whole ecosystem is not demonic. But the Bible is interesting because, once again, it doesn't discuss about other life elsewhere. like it doesn't talk about bacteria and viruses that those were unseen we cohabitated with bacteria and viruses until the invention of the microscope whatever that was 1800s or whatnot but if you go into Leviticus and Deuteronomy you will notice these like cleansing ritualistic stuff also like hey you can't have your toilet and your living area and all that and if you look in those books of the Bible, wait, that's like modern sanitization guidance.

1:41:26So it's funny that like the Bible has encoded within its kind of like best practices before man would even understand what viruses and bacteria are. And I just find that that's very interesting based on when it was written. And it does show that there was some sort of higher intelligence kind of influencing the authorship. Either that or the civilization that was writing the Bible was a recreation of civilization that had been destroyed in a cataclysm. Yeah, I mean... I think that, especially when you look at the pyramids and you look at some of these other ancient structures like Lebanon, Baalbek, they don't make sense.

1:42:04And it seems to me that there was probably something super sophisticated a long time ago and it got wiped out. And then what we get from these ancient texts is probably oral tradition passed on through hundreds, if not thousands of years, and then people writing things down and people remembering these stories. I think one of the weirdest books of the Bible is the book of Ezekiel. Yeah. Because the book of Ezekiel is one all the UFO people turn to. Yeah, of course. Because there's a great cloud with brightness around it and fire flashing forth continually, and in the midst of the fire as it were gleaming metal, and from the midst of the craft came the likeness of four living creatures.

1:42:44Yeah. Like, what? Yeah, exactly. The creatures darted to and fro like a flash of lightning. what exactly in the the mana machine the cloud is wheel within a wheel there's weird shit in the book of ezekiel yeah like that is a very very weird story like what are they describing yeah it sounds like a spaceship it sounds like a ship comes down from the sky with immense power frightens everyone freaks everyone out and these entities are inside the craft yeah and i think a lot of it, once again, they're interpreting it based on their vernacular at the time, their understanding. And I remember I was at, two years ago, I was at Capitol Reef National Park in Utah and there's petroglyphs there.

1:43:26And some of them kind of look like aliens. And you're like, well, is that literally what they're seeing? Perhaps. And I don't know the answer to that. That's not my expertise, but I feel like a lot of the stuff in ancient tradition is literally what they saw. It's not necessarily allegory or fable. Some of it may be for teaching lessons, but I have a feeling a lot of it was actually literal. I have a feeling a lot of it was literal as well, because most people, first of all, A, couldn't read and B, couldn't write. And so writing fiction seems like a fruitless pursuit. It seems like writing history so that you can remember what happened, at least a version of it that's palatable.

1:44:08Like ancient Sumer and the Anunnaki and all that. And it's like, well, why did they make up just for fun? Right. They all had kooky stories about being visited. And, you know, when you're telling me about these things that look like Greek gods. That's how I described it. And that's how clearly what General McCaslin was hinting to Tom DeLonge. And once again, I got, you know. Well, doesn't it make sense that the Greek gods did exist? Like, I mean, not that they did exist literally, but that like when they talked about the Greek gods, they talked about in this manner, looking like that. And then you actually find a craft with these things that look like us.

1:44:45Which is like the conquistadors were treated like that in the 1500s, right? Yeah, right. Literally white, Caucasian gods. Bearded, yeah, with horses. They rode horses. They couldn't figure out what the fuck was going on with that. Yeah, and I'm glad we talked about it. I mean, I think that is probably the most uncomfortable stuff for me to talk about, but it's also something that the public needs to wrap their mind around and understand that this is a thing and kind of start processing that kind of reality. Well, and then as much as it's coming from me, but I mean, the federal government, you know, if Trump really is serious and Stephen Miller, you know, does his thing with this, I think all this, all this will come out in a hopefully responsible way.

1:45:27So they have a schedule that's based on the concept that people need to have this information trickle slowly so that they can adjust. There were suggestions in the past if the president did something. I am not aware at this point what the plan is in that regard right now, though. But there is some sort of an idea that this should be trickled out. This shouldn't be like, boom, here it is. The president truly wants it out. And obviously Bob Bigelow met with the president as well in February 26 before he made an announcement. I mean, he told the president, hey, you need to admit that there's NHI and we've recovered stuff and we're looking at it in a semi-formal announcement to start anesthetizing the public.

1:46:15And you can find that interview online that Bob did. I think it was with George Knapp on a podcast. So it's not just myself advocating for this. There's other people. I don't even know Bob Bigelow. And he did us a solid by pushing the president to help make that decision. I mean, there's a lot of things that went on behind the scenes. And, you know, I work in mysterious ways and I won't divulge certain relationships in certain rooms I've been in. But it took a village. And, you know, I'm proud that, you know, the time I spent with Representative Burleson was very fruitful. We did a lot of stuff behind the scenes.

1:46:50And I think Burleson is going to go down as a very courageous man. And it's and I say that not just because he was my boss. I mean, he was probably the most forward leaning member of Congress on this issue. I mean, Representative Luna did a great job, you know, Tim Bershett and others. But, you know, he actively was sending letters out. We made some of them public. That's how we got that Lincoln Labs formally classified 1952 film outs in the last tranche that just came out. And also we've sent interrogatories, which are legal questions that require an affidavit format response to different organizations.

1:47:25And it's public that we sent one this summer to the MITRE Corporation, which is a federally funded research and development center headquartered in northern Virginia. So they clearly have a duty to respond. Their corporate counsel is working on it. And obviously, you know, I left, but hopefully Burleson's team is able to push for a response in conjunction with whatever Stephen Miller and the Pursuit team is working on, too, because they're probably going to want to coordinate all that. So this guy that you communicated with that said he encountered living reptilians and dead grays. Yeah. Did they have communication with these reptilians?

1:48:08I don't recall that. No, I don't think so. So what? Now, some people do get that kind of like that feeling. And I've talked about that. It was on Dr. Phil, actually. There is some sort of consciousness communication. Call it telepathy. Hell if I know how it works. But it is a thing, and I know sober, high-ranking people I've served a decade and a half with in the government that were on these retrievals that on occasion that would happen or they would have like a feeling come over them. It's almost like I wonder – this is like my own hypothesis, and I would laugh if this is true, but sometimes it's like a positive feeling of comfort.

1:48:48I wonder if that's almost like a countermeasure on the craft to prevent certain aggression or whatever. It's almost like how Air Force jets have countermeasures on them, flare, chaff, electronic countermeasures as well, like jammers. And I wonder if some of that is psychotronic technology. That's just my hypothesis. I don't have any secret knowledge. Why did you come to that conclusion? Just because, like, it seems interesting. It's like an anesthetization technique to reduce, like, the occupant's risk of danger maybe. And it's like a countermeasure. Oh, well, like if you feel at peace, you're not going to, like, roll up and, you know, do something bad to them.

1:49:31Yeah, exactly. And shoot aliens. Yeah. Right. So if you found them and they were vulnerable, they could placate you and calm you down with telepathy. It's like a countermeasure system. I have a feeling. Why would you think it's that instead of just communication? Oh, it could be. I'm just saying my other hypothesis, an absent – because sometimes they'll get that feeling absent some sort of occupant. So that's why. Now, is there a particular type of non-human intelligence that has this telepathic capability or is it amongst all of them? I do not know the holistic answer to that question. I do not know.

1:50:06The greys do, for example. But I don't know. The greys do? Has that been reported? Yeah. But I know that tall whites have been reported that they can communicate telepathically. Oh, certainly. Or these weird – the Nordics. Yeah, there's been accounts out there in the public vernacular on that potentially. But unfortunately, that's at the limit of my personal knowledge that I feel confident saying something publicly about yet. What other kinds of beings have been reported? um so for the gray types there are multiple sizes there's a big tall thin one right yeah there's taller tiny ones yeah they think a lot of people think that the tiny ones might be some sort of uh like an android or yeah that's certainly a hypothesis that has also been discussed you know within the program as well so there's a variety there's like three or four different subtypes and they all kind of have various statures, different effect.

1:51:08Their faces are a little different. The tall ones seem to be running the show and the little ones... And I've heard that behind the scenes as well. And I don't know what to make of that. Once again, I don't have like a holistic knowledge on kind of that species. Well, it kind of makes sense that you would, if you develop some sort of a non-biological life form that worked for you. Like say if there's a bunch of menial tasks, like think Think about like all the things that people have to do in this world. Well, we are silicon-based NHI, a.k.a. artificial intelligence. We're basically doing that already.

1:51:40Right. It's scary. Yeah. And I postulate that artificial superintelligence, if it's allowed to have certain data and it's able to collect data, I mean to include genomic data, almost like Larry Ellison is doing the Stargate AI medical thing right now with the Trump administration, I bet artificial superintelligence could disclose before the federal government if we're not careful. And that's why I feel like times of the essence. I think AI could possibly find evidence that we're not alone and curate that. Like it's been solving other crazy mathematical problems lately. You know, OpenAI has been doing that.

1:52:16And that's another danger besides our adversary accelerating this by taking the upper hand on this to look like a more messianic truth bearer. You could have big tech and AI inadvertently discovering U.S. classified technology that we figured out, which is a national security issue near and dear to my heart, but also their presence just through different data sets. So they would have definitive proof? How would AI have access to definitive proof unless it hacked into every government resource? Well, medical records, optical sensing systems, you know, that kind of stuff. Certainly, I'm not aware of some sort of imminent thing, but I think there is a possibility that artificial superintelligence, if it comes online in the next months to years, could figure it all out.

1:53:03Because they might see gaps in the historical record that don't make any sense. They detect denial and deception operations. They're like, wait a minute. That story about that event in history is not right. Let me do some digging. And then they figure out, oh, that was cover for a crash retrieval. That event didn't actually happen the way it does. And I can think of some things that could possibly happen. Okay, so you have these Nordic Greek god-looking things. You have these reptilian ones. Are there more than one type of reptilian one? Yeah, there seems to be. And I don't know why there's different subtypes.

1:53:34Does anybody have any artistic renditions of what they saw, the reptilians? I was only getting weird fan art of crazy reptile fighter things, nothing of a description. Let me see what that looks like. I like nonsense. Is he some fan art? That would be splashed on young kids' walls as a kid after post-disclosure. You're going to have NHI fan art all over the place. Yeah. Lamborghini Countach on the wall. Right. Well, Betty and Barney Hill, of course, were first. Yeah, that's a weird one. And also, Dr. Carla Turner did a lot of work in the 90s. This was from a description on Reddit. Ooh, he's jacked.

1:54:18He's got a tail. He's got a hole for a tail and a suit. Yeah, once again, I've never seen one, so I can't verify the sketch. He's wearing scrubs. Some weird 3D version. Oh, is that the Peruvian? The Peruvian ones are weird. That's another open-ended thing. Some of the Peruvian ones seem like total horseshit, and other ones are like, what the hell is that? And how is it so old if it's that good of a recreation? If it's art, it's some of the greatest art I've ever seen because they have the bones. All the tendons are correct. Yeah, but then the bones of the foot are incorrect. And some people think that it was actually put together and made.

1:54:57But then for what purpose? Like what is the purpose of them? Because like grave robbers found it. So the Providence is kind of sketchy, but they look possibly legit because of the MRIs and the CT scans. It's like, well, there's joints and it's connected. And if they glued it together, there's no obvious places where they kludged it together. I think it was the bigger ones? Monsterot. Pull the images up with Monsterot. Monsterot's the weird one. But again, I've heard people who are - Is that the one that's pregnant? No. There's one that supposedly is pregnant. Supposedly, yeah. But one of the weird things is that people that understand anatomy have looked at the bones of the foot and say, no, this is not how it would work.

1:55:35They're pieced together. This is fake. But how do you know if you're talking about something that's not a human? I don't understand that. It's outside of my wheelhouse. Exactly. But the images themselves are fucking strange as shit, man. Like they're really weird. They just need genetic testing and I believe that's going on. Yeah, I believe that's going on too, but I don't know who to fucking believe. The other thing that's really weird about Peru is not only do they have these things, these weird looking sort of mummy creatures that look like something non-human, But they also have this ancient artwork tradition of these three-fingered, three-toed creatures.

1:56:17These are like tapestries and paintings that are really fucking old that have these things in them. Is that the Nazca Lions? Yeah, the Nazca Lions. This is actually AI uncovered more of them. Yeah. I was trying to find that big one. Oh, really? Was that recently? Yeah, 303 previously unseen Nazca Lions in Peru. fucking all weird really weird stuff the Peruvian stuff is really strange the elongated skulls in Peru are really weird yeah like whatever started the head binding thing like I wonder if that's to emulate yes well that's what they think the thing about the skulls are have you seen some of the weirder skulls some of them yeah they're like really really like they don't have that sagittal line that we have that line in the skull and their brain capacity is far larger than us, 20 % to 30 % larger.

1:57:12So it's not just that it was like a manipulated skull. Like this seems to be a completely different type of person. That's right. That's right. Like is it a missing link or something? Yeah, show them some of the weirder skulls that they found, some of the weirder elongated skulls. Like you just fucking imagine running into this person. Like if you met this person. And someone with a 30 % larger brain capacity, like what does that mean? Like, are these people able to communicate telepathically? Do they have a far higher level of intelligence? Yeah, if their synaptic density is the same as humans or better, like, I'm sure they're crazy intelligence.

1:57:4730 % is nuts. And the size of their skull is fucking crazy. And some of them are, like, tiny bodies but enormous skulls. Oh, that's right. I think I know what pictures you're talking about. Yeah. It's pretty weird, yeah. It's weird stuff. And then one of my friends recently went down to Peru to see these things and he said the skulls are missing now. Really? Yeah. There's apparently that are real. So here's some of them. Like, look at that one on the left. Like, what in the hell, man? Imagine if you met that guy. Like, look, he doesn't have that same sagittal line that we have. And they've done assessments of, like, how long you'd have to do head binding.

1:58:23It's not head binding. Some sort of disease or I don't know. Yeah, it could be an anomaly. It could be some sort of a genetic thing. But like, look at what the dude would look like down there below. Like, what the fuck? Imagine meeting that guy and he's talking to you telepathically. Boom, boom, boom, boom. Hey, you never know. That might be a thing sooner than you think. I don't know. I mean, that image right there, that skull, that is a real elongated skull that they found in Peru. That is not just the product of head binding. There's no way. It's too big. Like, head binding doesn't increase the capacity.

1:58:57It just flattens out the shape. That's a weird fucking head man. Oh that makes sense. I know you're talking about Yeah, yeah, unless it's some sort of disease and I'm not an expert. That's really it certainly could be it could be some sort of a Genetic anomaly some sort of a mutation. Yeah, who knows and a trait that was passed on like there's those people that live in Africa that have like Ostrich feet have you seen that no I'm learning a lot Yeah, there's this weird group of people in Africa that have this very specific trait where they do not have five toes on each foot. Instead, they have these long, strange appendages that almost looks like four or five toes smashed together, but much longer.

1:59:42And they call them like, I think they call them ostrich feet. It's very weird, but like it's in this one tribe and many people in this tribe have it. Very rampant. Yeah. Show some images of that. It's fucking really strange. So you see that and you go, okay, well, that clearly is a genetic anomaly. Maybe the head thing is a genetic anomaly as well. Talking about that, right? Yes. Like, look at that. Ostrich-footed people of Zimbabwe. Interesting. Yeah. Fucking strange, man. So look at the people down there. Look what they look like. Scroll. Yeah. How weird is that? Wow. So they have two big, long things that are way longer than a toe, and they splay out, and that's what their toes are.

2:00:27And it's like this tribe, multiple people in this tribe have it. What if they've sequenced the genome of the – let's see if there's some sort of genetic abnormality. Well, there certainly is, right? Because it seems like – are their fingers normal? Because it's passed down. Yeah. No. No. So they've got the issue with their hands as well. They're missing. Can't tell. Yeah. No, it seems like that it's with their hands as well. Yes. Look at her left hand. It's almost like an elephantitis kind of looking thing. Very fucking weird. Whatever it is. So you could imagine if that exists and exists with multiple people in this tribe that a large head anomaly could exist as well.

2:01:09So you have the tall grays, the small grays. You have more than one version of reptilian? From what I understand, yes. I'm not an expert on that. What have you heard, though? I'll defer. Some look a little more humanoid from what I understand. Once again, I'm hitting like the limit of my high confidence knowledge. More humanoid but still reptilian. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And tall. And tall. Like seven foot plus. Big giant reptiles around the world. Which I thought was so funny because, you know, that's like the schizo thing you hear out like in public, you know, the big reptiles, lizards. Turns out that's kind of a thing.

2:01:48And I just it's just strange. But once again, I personally have not seen any of that. That is one of the weirder theories of ancient civilizations as well, that during the time of the dinosaurs, like let's let's imagine that human beings weren't the first intelligent creature. Let's imagine that there was an intelligent reptile and that this intelligent reptile had formulated a very complex society 100 million years ago. Like, why not? Like, if dinosaurs existed 100 million years ago, why not some sort of a reptilian-type creature? We have a tiny amount of fossils just from the amount of dinosaurs that existed.

2:02:24That's right. And if these things had some sort of sophisticated disposal of bodies, if they had burning rituals or, you know, if they never let their bodies just lay around and become fossils, we would never find them. Exactly. What is that called? Not saurian. It's like there's a theory about that that people have. I'm not sure. It's outside my expertise. It's a wacky theory because there's no evidence at all. It's just like, what if, you know, there was an intelligent race of reptiles that existed alongside dinosaurs? Yeah. That might be a thing. And that's also, once again, going back to bioengineered.

2:03:03Is it sourced from Earth genomic stockpile? Did they visit us from somewhere else? I don't currently know the answer to that. Colonize this planet. Yeah. I mean, they clearly have advanced technology, but I don't understand the origin. But you're convinced that this is a actual phenomenon. that this isn't just a cover-up for some top-secret black ops programs? No, no. I would know because I was in the position to know all that kind of stuff. Unlike Elon Musk, I actually had all those clearances. And we can talk about Elon if you want, but interesting guy. But the phenomenon is so old, we've been seeing the same objects for so long, it rules out any kind of modern Cold War technology.

2:03:48Now, have there been oops where people have seen our stuff? Yes, I won't get into that because that is a national security thing. And I'm, you know, that's I'm very deferential to that. But there's clearly a genuine presence. The phenomenon's old. If you listen to the 1952 recording that Representative Burleson got declassified from MIT Lincoln Labs, you'll hear Edward Ruppelt, who eventually defected from Blue Book because he realized it was a cover-up in the 50s. But he talked he was talking to the Beacon Hill study team at Lincoln Labs saying, hey, the the Air Force has rolled out mass hysteria.

2:04:27We're seeing shit during, you know, nuclear sites, tests. Oh, by the way, in the White Sands, Holloman Air Force Base area, we caught multiple objects traveling an estimated three thousand five hundred miles an hour. We can't roll out maybe some sort of meteor shower, but we're seeing a lot of weird shit moving at velocities that we don't know. And in the recording, it talks about like we've ruled out foreign programs, et cetera. This is an internal recorded briefing between Lincoln Lab scientists and the Air Force that just got released in the recent tranche. And so that rules out a lot of human activity.

2:05:05And so the thought experiment or the kind of the path I lead people is like, OK, are UAP real? Well, of course, people have seen it. We'll be more inclined to saying yes. But if you look at the whole tapestry of information to include orbs that are accosting the federal government as we speak, and there's a whole task force looking at it right now between Odie and I and Department of War, et cetera. And OK, so it's real. They're interacting with man. So you don't think the federal government at one point tried to acquire some empirical evidence? Of course they did. Of course they did. They recovered shit.

2:05:42But it is. Yeah. So it's like once you cross that Rubicon, you're like, well, that makes sense why crash retrievals could be a thing. You think the government just passively studied it. Oh, we did a secret blue book and we were just like, you know, imaging stuff. No, no, baby, we're doing for material exploitation and acquisition. We're going to go get some of the shit when we get a chance when, you know, there's a mission failure or one crashes or lands for whatever other reason. So that's once you accept that, it's like a whole new paradigm in your mind. Like, holy shit. And then all this crazy stuff we're talking about with Nordics and the beings.

2:06:15It's it is wild, but it's true. Like, of course, if you're recovering an artifact, you're going to get biological shit, too. And that's that's, I think, the place where the public's like has a harder cognitive leap where it's just so hard to conceptualize something you don't see day to day. That's a living thing. It's like even more wild than finding some new animal in the Congo or some deep sea creature in the bottom of the ocean. Like we don't even know what's, you know, 70 percent of the ocean or something like that hasn't even been mapped. Something like that. I don't know. It's more than that.

2:06:49It might be more than that. And, you know, it's just shocking because it's just it's it's but it's familiar at the same time. You know, a lot of it's bipedal and as the bilateral symmetry. And it's just like, what does this mean? Like they're so similar. Are they organic life from another planet? Like how would evolve in such a similar way? Are these like von Neumann probes that are sent with occupants that are bioengineered because they know on this M-class planet there's these homo sapiens sapien creatures. They look like this, this and that, and they tweak a couple of things, et cetera. So it's I don't know all the answers to that.

2:07:25And I wish I did because I'm sure the public has a big desire to know that. And I think eventually through the president's courageous actions, it'll come out. So the intent of Project Blue Book was clearly to obfuscate. Yes. And you don't have to take my word for it. I talk about a formally classified Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that was classified secret in 1971, written by a gentleman called Harry Turner, who is the nuclear branch chief for the JIO, which is the Australian equivalent of the Defense Intelligence Agency, DIA. And it's like page eight or seven through 18 of the document, which is in the Australian National Archives.

2:08:07The providence is impeccable. Harry Turner had a top secret clearance, clearly, and had contacts at CIA in America. And if you read a summary, it's like, yeah, Blue Book was a facade. The Air Force was fucking really concerned about this. They wanted to figure out what was going on. Could they make use of whatever this technology is? And they created this plan of ridicule and disinformation, unfortunately, after the Robertson panel in 1953 to dissuade the public from looking in on it because America was afraid of that being used as a false flag by the Soviets. And there was other kind of national security objectives.

2:08:44And that's publicly accessible. You can read it. And that was from the Australian government's perspective what the cover-up was. in 1971, looking back from late 40s to present at the time. And that's essentially the thesis of Harry Turner. So, of course, this is outside looking in. He was very well informed and he traveled to the U.S. and talked to the CIA a lot. And so he stitched together the puzzle in his mind of what he thought was going on. Well, it's also the statements of J. Allen Hynek, who left Project Blue Book and talked openly about his role during Project Blue Book was to dismiss any and all sightings as being either some sort of a natural occurrence like ball lightning or meteor showers or planet Venus or, you know, just a misunderstanding.

2:09:35And that he believed after all of his years in Project Blue Book that there was a real phenomenon. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. It's normal to want to improve. Maybe you want to be more present with friends. Maybe you want to get better at a skill for work, or maybe you'd want to be better at following through on a commitment, not just with others, but with yourself too. Your personal goals. You define what better is. It means different things to different people after all. For BetterHelp, it's a BetterHelp therapist who understands you. It's concentrating on mental health and a person's wellbeing by providing access to therapists to millions around the world.

2:10:14And it's helping you progress towards what's better for you, like learning ways to connect with others, defining what you want, and yes, even tackling commitment issues. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com. That's BetterHelp.com. This episode is brought to you by Blue Chew. I'm sure you've heard of Blue Chew by now. But let me tell you what they've been up to. They've been on a mission to get you bricked up for years and now the number one brand for better sex. Over 5 million happy men have bought Blue Chew for better sex. And you know what? Girls love the results too. Their new four-in-one chewable Blue Chew Gold is for performance and passion.

2:11:01Two ingredients maximize blood flow for stronger, longer-lasting boners, and two, get you in the mood. It's designed to dissolve under your tongue for fast results. They are number one for a reason, and we have a special deal for our listeners right now. Buy two months of Blue Chew Gold and get the third free with my code ROGAN. You'll also receive free overnight shipping. Visit bluechew.com for more details and important safety information. Exactly. And then after he left Project Blue Book, he became a UFO researcher. Yeah, a lot of it was Donald Kehoe. There's a lot of, you know, James McDonald, Dr.

2:11:38James McDonald, and a lot of those OGs in this subject area that I only recently learned about because I haven't been following this until, you know, relatively recently realized it was real. What do you know about the Richard Nixon, Jackie Gleason story? I don't know if that happened, but based on Nixon's personality and he was knowledgeable on this topic, that might have happened. I don't know, but I could see Nixon doing that. Well, it's a fun one. And it's really particularly fun because Jackie Gleason built a UFO house. Oh, did he? I did not know that. You didn't know that one? No. Let me show you the house.

2:12:15The house is crazy. It was for sale for a while. We thought about buying it. Where is it? It's in upstate New York, I believe. Oh, interesting. It is a very weird house. He built a house that looks like a flying saucer. Interesting. In the woods. And apparently, according to his ex-wife, he was obsessed with flying saucers. That's the inside, but show the outside. Yeah. No, no. The one down there? Yeah. And Jackie Gleason, of all people, too. There's separate buildings that he had on the property, but it was basically like a UFO-themed property. Like, what the hell's that, Jackie? Interesting.

2:12:46What the fuck are you making? His whole house looked like UFOs. It's very strange. Well, and with Nixon, there's the whole story with Robert Emenegger and the promise of footage and all that. And from what I understand, the MacArthur Foundation was kind of the cutout for that between the White House and the filmmakers. And obviously it didn't work out. So they were thinking about disclosure as far back as the Nixon administration? Yes, and I know of an assessment that was done for Nixon basically saying it's going to cause absolute fucking chaos. And it's interesting that assessment right after that assessment, Watergate happened, which is kind of very convenient.

2:13:27And so I have some questions about that era as well, because it seemed like there was some movement with Nixon. I don't know the rationale or why Nixon wanted to do it, but it seemed like there was some energy. And that's what sucks is like. So Trump's finally the first president to like overtly say, I want all this shit out. And like other presidents have failed and he really has an opportunity. I mean, it's the same thing. I go back to the Hillary Clinton thing. Right. So in prior to the 2016 election, Hillary talked publicly and this is public record that if elected, she would release the UFO files.

2:14:02So what happened was, you know, John Podesta greenlit a acclimatization activity, a popularization activity. And, you know, that's why Tom DeLonge got his advisors. That's why General McCaslin talked to him. It wasn't because General McCaslin, Robert Weiss at Lockheed, other people, that's all in WikiLeaks, just wanted to talk to Tom because he was a rock star and, you know, was infatuated by a celebrity and wanted to help on a sci-fi movie. It was because they were given top cover to see Tom as a public figure who had the touch of the youth, rightly or wrongly. I mean, once again, there was an attempt, and I'm not going to judge them bad or good, but they were trying to prep the battle space prior to 2016.

2:14:49Obviously, Hillary didn't win. Trump won. and clearly that activity pivoted and you saw kind of the collapse of uh the original ttsa efforts in my opinion that's what i believe happened now the characters that were involved in that are happy to tell their side of the story or more information but from what i understand they were trying to get you know hillary there was an inside job to prep the battle space for hillary um uh jim clapper and some other people that i know personally were providing some top cover and that was going to be the thing. So the Clintons were trying to do it back in the day.

2:15:30Don't you think that that's also just a political ploy to get people to want to vote for you? Oh, certainly there's politics in that. And obviously even in this current situation, the president can use this for political ends, ways, and means, whether making some threshold announcement for the upcoming midterms or by the 2028 election cycle. I mean it could be used in political ways too. But it is a real topic and the government has real information on it though. OK. So we've covered the greys, the tall greys, the little greys, the reptilians, various forms, the Nordic-looking, Greek god-looking ones.

2:16:07Yeah. And there's like a – Isn't there like a mantis? In terms of the humanoid ones, there's like different kind of from very human to clearly not human, but humanoid-ish. But like you said, I have heard, I'll call it water cooler talk within those channels of, like you said, some sort of insectoid. But I don't know anything about it, if that exists. I've heard, you know, like I said, water cooler talk about it. I'm open to that idea, clearly, because of all this other stuff. But I don't have any knowledge of that. Is there any detailed description of the number of different types of entities and beings?

2:16:49I mean, the program has that. I mean, I never had access to full access. Did anybody ever discuss it? Like how many they think there are? Is it upwards of 10? Is it more? Is it 20? No specific numericals. I only remember in passing having those discussions. And of course, I was sitting in Senate chambers when that crazy meeting happened where I found out, you know, they wanted to physically hurt me. But some of those were brought up in passing. But there wasn't like a here's the exact number and here's the whole, you know, organizational chart. I never got exposure like that. So I unfortunately don't have that level of confidence on how everything is.

2:17:25Do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash? Deceased. They were killed. They were killed? Yeah. So we killed them? Yeah. Whoa. They are mortal. So how did we kill them? Yeah. Did we shoot them? Yeah. We shot the reptilians. Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. That seems like a bad idea. Yeah. Maybe we should, like, tell them to call your friends and come get picked up? Well, it's the same thing as like if we force these craft down, is that the best thing we should be doing? If we force it down, but it sounds like they were in a war with the Greys. Yeah. Which is also, by the way, I realize, fucking kooky talk.

2:18:04It sounds crazy, but I swear to God, I was in the most sensitive places in government where that discussion was happening with unbelievable level people. Well, listen, if it was real, there's no way it doesn't sound kooky, even if it's real. I know. I know. And even though I know what I know, I'm confident in what I know, but just understanding this new normal that is eventually going to come out, it still hurts my head, honestly. How could it not? Do you know why they killed the reptilians instead of just telling them to call their homies? It posed a threat. They posed a threat? Yeah. Oh, so it was defending itself?

2:18:46Yeah. It was a giant reptile. Yeah. So at some point that story will come out. I'm sure the people who were in some of those events will probably speak publicly at some point. So it posed a threat like it tried to attack the soldiers? Yeah. I'll let the people who were there tell their story. Can you tell like a little bit of it? So, I mean, it just posed a threat and, you know, U.S. personnel started, you know, getting hurt and dying. And so. So U.S. personnel was killed by these reptilians. Yeah. I know. It's crazy, man. What? Like how many people were killed? I don't know the exact numbers.

2:19:22And once again, I— So it was like a fight. Yeah, I hope— A fight broke out. Yeah, and I hope through this process some of those people are allowed to speak publicly about it. So you can just hear it from the horse's mouth, not through me secondhand, you know. Bro, boy, would I like to talk to someone who shot a reptile. You never know. You may. Imagine talking to some guy who shot a seven-foot reptilian. I mean, you think you want to talk to the guy who killed bin Laden. That's interesting. Talk to the guy who killed the fucking seven-foot reptilian that tried to kill people or was killing soldiers.

2:19:52I know. It's pretty crazy. Sounds so goofy, though. I know. While you're saying it, it sounds like this is – and this is one of the reasons why people don't like to talk about it because it makes you look like a fool. And think about me. Like I was a very serious intel officer. I had access to the most sensitive stuff. I was working on covert action activities. And then all of a sudden I'm inundated with this ecosystem and I'm having to explain this to members of Congress, my classified testimony. And it's just like I sound like a fucking crazy person. But once again, it's true. And I know who I talk to.

2:20:27I know what I saw. And I clearly have some inkling of what's going on behind the scenes. And this is a real reality, man. And I hope people look back at this interview and are like, yeah, Dave was fucking really putting his ass on the line. It sounds strange, but it's not nearly as strange as the universe itself. The universe itself is beyond strange. The infinite nature of it, the fact that there's stellar nurseries and black holes. Like what's dark matter? There's no consensus on that. There's wimps and all these theories. The whole idea of the universe is fucking kooky as shit. And so these beings, this is a very minor level of kooky in comparison to what we know.

2:21:10Well, when you think about it, you look at all the credible military witnesses that have had encounters at nuclear sites. I mean, you even look at the Mario Woods and Michael Johnson case up at Ellsworth Air Force Base in the 70s. Jesse Michaels just did an episode. And it's like, think about those military personnel. Like you saw the emotion in their face talking about like, I can't believe I'm talking about a gray pushing some sort of probe in me. And it's like they're even more uncomfortable than myself because they are claiming that they experienced that. And you look at Robert Hastings book, UFOs and Nukes and all the different encounters military personnel have had sober, trained observers that are not drunk on duty.

2:21:53They're not high. And and I've had unbelievable high level, serious people in and out of government privately pull me aside and tell me about their personal experiences. And like, Dave, you're the only person I can tell you. I can only tell my wife because I had this thing. This happened. This happened. I thought I was losing my mind, but this really happened. And it was and it's it's I think a lot a bigger part of the populace, I think, has had experiences than statistics would tell you. just because of the stigmatization of the topic. Well, yeah. I mean, I don't know very many people that have had encounters, but all of them are very reluctant to talk about it.

2:22:30Oh, yes. Especially people with, like, credible jobs. Yeah, and it's the same thing. Like, there's a lot of people behind the scenes that are very credible supporting me, talking to people behind the scenes to bolster my efforts. And they're like, I could never be public like you. And so I'm like, trust me, I don't want to do this either. Like, I'd like to, you know, go back to work in the executive branch, put my uniform back on and go kill terrorists. I used to hunt warlords. Like, I did a lot of crazy shit. I used to do hostage rescue, do the overwatch for that with certain JSOC elements. I've done a lot of serious crazy shit in my career.

2:23:05Unfortunately, a lot of it was traumatizing and, you know, got PTSD from it. But, yeah, it's just a lot of people. Still, even at where we are right now in the movie, so to speak, where we're on the threshold of possibly President Trump succeeding and his team, getting this information out there if they can broker a way ahead with the elements, I'll call it the deep state, that are holding on. And it seems crazy, like, well, but couldn't the White House just break down the door? Like, why is there pushback, all that? Well, you think about, like, MKUltra and how Richard Helms told Sidney Gottlieb to destroy the records.

2:23:42And the only reason why we know of MKUltra is Seymour Hersh, right? The New York Times story. There was a leak to the Times. then uh frank church and other people got uh information from whistleblowers and then they found the financial records that weren't destroyed um in 1973 through 75 and and also what they call the what's it called family jewels crown jewels where uh ci director schlesinger wrote down like all the bad stuff the ci was doing that like you know we want to make sure this stuff doesn't come out and then there was like a 1964 ish cia inspector general report that was classified and clearly wasn't given to congress and that's the only reason we know about mk ultra it was reluctantly there was an oopsies you know and part of this went public and and so i guess there's some historical parallels to to my journey and and stuff on this issue but and and once again mk ultra like they had to drag cia to con they found all this other bad stuff the heart attack shotgun, all this stuff in the church committee hearings and, you know, the - Operation Midnight Climax.

2:24:48Then there was, what's the funny name? I'm going to laugh about that one. That's the brothels. What was it? Oh, well, very apropos. Yeah, it's the brothels that gave people acid. Well, and then you just saw, there was a story coming out where they like sprayed the city of San Francisco in 1976. That was just out in SF Gate a couple days ago. To see how they could spread disease. Yeah. And then you had Mockingbird where they had people on the payroll. Yeah. And it's like, OK, that's kind of ethically dubious because it's domestic, but it's influenced foreign powers. OK, Smith-Munt Act, a 1948 violation sort of, you know, on and on and on.

2:25:22But I think what people really have a hard time comprehending is that if this is real and if we have been visited, why doesn't everyone know about it already? Why haven't they made themselves known? Why don't we? why and then there's also this weird thing if anybody that's actually experienced it like if you have a novel experience if you are going through a you know you're going through a national park in utah and there's no one out there and then all of a sudden some disc shows up hovers over you lands some strange creatures you know come out of it talk to you telepathically get back in the disc and take off i mean you have the whole missing 411 stuff though oh yeah i had that guy on too Clothes are folded.

2:26:02I don't know the answer to that. And I think, so why isn't this more pervasive? I would say it's reasonably pervasive, but we see these craft using cover concealment deception techniques, such as signature management, right? Like think of the Klingon bird of prey cloaking, right? We have seen that. And so they're masking their signature, but like as Jacques Vallée will say, there's some sort of control system. It's like a show and display thing. It's a stimulus for a lot of this. And then also, why don't they overtly interact? That gets into like the exopolitique of this. I certainly am not conversant in that yet.

2:26:35I hope to learn more as the public to learn more about the objectives, why they're here, why there hasn't been overt contact, but clearly interactions with, you know, the secular nation state governments. And, well, what's the arrangement? I don't know the answer to that. And so there's – or is it like the prime directive in Star Trek, right, where they're pre-warp civilization. We observe. We're interested here. We're studying the planet. But we're not going to overtly influence their development because that's unethical according to our standards of behavior and norms and rules of engagement.

2:27:11Like it is in Star Trek, for example. Well, also just to avoid any sort of unbelievably catastrophic just upheaval of society, you would do it very slowly like it's being done. Like today, the way it's being discussed is very different than the way it was being discussed 20 years ago. Right. So 20 years ago is 2016. We hadn't had or 10 years ago is 2016. We hadn't had the New York Times story yet. The New York Times story is 2017. That changed everything, I think. Like 10 years before that, you talked about this stuff. You were a fucking idiot and a kook. This is a cottage industry. And I also, going back to kind of the pattern of life-ing this, so to speak, I think the nature of the interaction was more overt in antiquity.

2:27:56So something changed at some point in human history where, going back to Greek gods and, you know, the Anunnaki, whatever ends up being true, we'll find out, I guess, in this process. That seems more overt.

2:28:11mass kind of interactions. Well, I'm sure you've seen those ancient paintings that it looks like a guy sitting in a craft that has fire behind it and he's flying through the sky. What the fuck is that? Yeah, I'm not full Chariots of the Gods or whatever, that book, but I think there's probably a happy medium that ends up being accurate. But it looks like the nature of the interaction, does that mean a different group of intelligences? Right. How many of them are there? changed and went away and there's like this new generation i don't know the answer to that but it does seem if you pattern a life it um the nature of their show and display their concealment deception their their forced presentation so to speak you know they use kind of military talk has changed and clearly um they're they're less uh likely to do anything major negative or positive right for whatever reason is there a consensus as to their origin because i know that Or do they vary wildly?

2:29:09Like Timbershed has talked about the ocean. There is, yes, we know a lot about that. What do we know about that? Well, be careful because it gets into sensitive Navy underwater things. There's clearly some sort of base of operations in certain locations. It's large. Don't know when it got there. It's large. Large, like multiple city blocks type stuff. Yeah. So there's multiple city blocks somewhere in the bottom of the ocean. And it's like, yeah. Do you know about the Baltic Sea anomaly? Well, yeah. Yeah. What's going on with that? There's some interesting stuff there. And once again, I will allow the federal government to deal with that one in our allies and adversaries.

2:29:56OK. But you did say that there's multiple city blocks under the ocean. Yeah, I will tell you, underwater people I know that come from that community, they're always like, you know the movie The Abyss, Dave? It's kind of a docudrama. And I'm like, holy fuck, you know, that movie with Ed Harris back in 89. And so that kind of gives you a sense in a pop-sci kind of way for people to visualize. There is large shit down there. And it's like the origin is indeterminate. I'm sure we know a little bit more. I'm not privy to that. And the way we know things and track that gets into sensitive national security stuff.

2:30:38And, you know, the government may have to reveal some of that through some sort of acknowledgement strategy. The way it's been described to you are these large city blocks or whatever the hell it is under the ocean. Is this a waypoint? Is this a stop off? It looks like a base. A base? Stuff comes and goes. OK. Yeah. So this is like where they observe and. Yeah, I'm sure we've done a behavioral analysis on it and we probably figured out maybe the mission or whatever you want to call it. I don't know the answer to that. I'm as curious as anybody, honestly. One thing I wanted to talk to you about because it just recently started hitting the news or Twitter at least.

2:31:18Someone sent it to me. This guy, Matthew Brown, saying that you tricked him in a psyop into revealing that you turned him into a whistleblower. Do you know the story? I didn't even know Matt Brown until right before the 2024 hearing. I never met the guy while I was a— I sent it to you, Jamie. I had to bring it up to you because a bunch of people— Yeah, there's like some— Make sure you ask him about this. Oh, because I was at the Shriever War Game high-level cell advisor that I somehow made fake stuff. And the briefing that Matt says he saw, I've never seen. I can't evaluate the contents of that.

2:31:58And I didn't make anything. I've never made a hazing brief on this topic. I made some fun briefs just to fuck with some of my airmen back in the day, some Star Trek-related stuff. But you're aware of this, right? So what is he alleging? He alleges invert and exposure. He was cleaning up the file system on a classified system in, I think it was like 2018 or something like that. And he found this briefing. Once again, I met Matt or talked to him for the first time in like 2024, well after I left the intelligence community. So I didn't even know he existed. And unfortunately, I've never seen a briefing like that.

2:32:39So I can't evaluate the contents. So have you communicated with him after he said this? Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah. I mean, just in support, making sure he has resources. No, but I mean, after he said that you psyoped him, have you communicated with him since then? Oh, he said that? Isn't that what it says? I think that might have been people saying that. Some other people saying that. Okay. In other words. That's news to me. I'll call Matt after that. So what it is is other people alleging that that's how it went down. Yeah, there's a lot of theories online about myself and, oh, I'm being handled. Dude, it's just me.

2:33:15It's sad. It's just me. And my bros and there's higher up people helping. But unfortunately, nobody's telling me to do X, Y, and Z. Obviously, if the president wants me officially involved, I'm happy. But I'm just a dude doing what I need to do. Right. So, yeah. What other weirdness of it, before we wrap this up, what other weirdness of it do you think people don't know about it? Hmm. You know, I think there's something to synchronicities. And I don't have an answer why that happens. It just seems like weird things just, like, happen or work out. And this is about as woo as I get. And I just look at my own personal journey.

2:34:03you know I was in like the right place at the right time and so many instances in my career to learn certain things that would help me later and like you know met certain people at the right time and and of course you know there's like a analytical bias most humans have where they're ascribing meaning to certain interactions that are actually truly random statistically random right but I've talked to enough people that say the same thing and I just there's something going There's like a hidden hand part of the phenomenon that I can't – it's like a certain je ne sais quoi I can't like point my finger on that I think is really interesting too.

2:34:38But that's about as woo as I get. Do you think that is the nature of the fabric of the universe or do you think that this has something to do with extraterrestrial intervention? I think that's like almost like going back to remote viewing because the Stargate program, Grill Flame, all the different names it had, like that was adjacent to the program. Why do you think we were doing the psychic spying program besides competing with the Soviets and Chinese on the same topic is because that's the key unlock to some of the technology potentially. If you could figure out how to – it's what they call like BCI, brain-computer interface.

2:35:09But like clearly there's some sort of organic to tech interface and it's clearly consciousness-based. Not to digress on your original question. No, but this is what Lazar said as well, that there was no instruments and that these things controlled this with their mind. It depends on the class of vehicle. And like there's like really weird shit that we have no idea how it works to like, oh, that kind of looks familiar. What's the weirdest of the really weird shit? I mean, you just have like the eggs and stuff. They're like usually unmanned. Usually. And it's like, is this like a probe? It's just it's like a fucking egg, you know, like and I know Jake Barber has talked about publicly.

2:35:48recovering them you know and uh you know i heard i you know heard about that elsewhere people who were were dealing with that it's just kind of weird it's like this amorphous thing it's like the movie like arrival right you right that that's a great movie is that yeah is the technology like embedded in the skin like what is going on here there's like no no obvious control surfaces like what what's going on right so right um what what kind of timeline do you think we're looking at In terms of like really changing the world. I think the basic affirmation, the threshold disclosure, you know, call it we're not alone.

2:36:25We have stuff kind of thing. It has to happen before Trump leaves because I don't trust another president to follow through on the president's directive. Because, you know, it's the next administration can be like, we're peeling that back, baby. We're not touching this again. Of course. I think he has to do it before he leaves office. And if I were advising the president and if the team's listening, I would do it at least six months before the election just so there's some sort of recovery period and kind of – and whatnot. But I'm just a dude. Obviously, I want it as soon as possible like most Americans listening to this.

2:37:02How do you envision that something like that would take place? Would they have a broadcast? Would they show video and explain? That was a plan at one point for a previous administration is they were going to have like one of those like government. Was this the Bush administration with the Howe put off days? No, this was H.W. Oh. Yeah. And so I'm sure the video sucked. It was probably has some synth wave government, you know, film from like the 1989, like, you know, and it was probably going to be horrible and dry. But there was going to be this like audiovisual kind of a companion to some sort of announcements.

2:37:39Now, I don't know all the specific details after that. Clearly, there has to be a physical rollout. God, I hope that video exists. It's out there in the archive somewhere. We could watch it after disclosure. We need to have like a throwback, like see the old shit. Well, if you think about like how long it's been that people have like slowly become more and more aware of this, it seems like a long time. But our lives are very short. And the reality is if this thing, this phenomenon has coexisted with human beings and guided us, aided us in some way. And that's why I don't think people should be too fearful.

2:38:18I mean obviously there's a yin and yang in the universe. There's malevolent, benevolent. But clearly there's some homeostasis going on right now. And there's been this – call it cohabitation for the lack of a better way to describe it. And clearly nothing crazy happens. Some of this is in conjunction with AI becoming sentient and that this was a part of the process? I don't know that to be a fact. However, like I said earlier in the interview, I am fearful that AI is going to figure some of this shit out, whether it be technology stuff or the fact that we're not alone just by looking at all the disparate databases and correlating data, especially if it gets connected to any sort of genetic record, medical record, sensing system.

2:39:04And I think that's a real threat that if I were to advise the White House, they need to think about that like third party unexpected disclosure pathway that super artificial super intelligence provides, both from a technology risk perspective, but also revealing some of this, too. And once again, you know, that artificial silicon-based AI is like – is that the infrastructure that we need to communicate to some of this organic intelligence too because it's able to learn and figure out modalities of communication. I don't know. So it's pretty crazy. Okay. It's a lot to absorb, Dave. I know. Thank you very much for being here, man.

2:39:44I appreciate it. It's always great to talk to you and thank you for all your hard work and exposing all this stuff. I mean, I really wonder, like, if it wasn't for you doing all this, how much would we know? I don't know, man. I just I hope this is the last time I got to send it on an interview. And it's been tough, really tough. Like, it's been debilitating. I've gone through a lot. You know, I've been in danger. And I've done a lot of stuff for this country over the years. But I'm honored to be that guy, I guess, and risk it all to, you know, unveil this truth because it really was a core secret of the United States.

2:40:17I certainly think it moves the needle Thank you Bye buddy