JRE MMA Show #175 with Shakur Stevenson

12:20Shakur Stevenson:Well, it's like how far you've gone, right? Like, you started off at five and been intensely focused for all these years. How old are you now? Twenty? Twenty-eight. Twenty-eight. Which is prime. Yeah. That's it. Like 28 to like 34 is the best year. But then again, you look at Terrence. I mean, he's at an age where a lot of people say it's over,

12:43Joe Rogan:and he put on the performance of his career against Canelo. I don't know how he do it. He's like a different human being. He's so smart. If I'm honest, he is like the reason. I'm not going to say he's the reason why I am who I am today, but he brought my game from like where it was at to like a very high level and he don't even realize like he done that like me just being in the gym able to watch him and pick up on like the little things that he doing his bad days his good days his I'm seeing everything and like when he come out there on fight night how prepared and how ready how confident like honestly that dude kind He put me into a whole different world now to where I'm like, oh, I can.

13:33Joe Rogan:I can beat anybody. I get in there with Terrence Crawford, and if I can spar with him, I can. How you going to hurt me? How? How you going to beat me? I'm in the ring with the best fighter in the world.

13:45Shakur Stevenson:One of the best of all time. You feel me? Yeah, one of the best of all time. And one of the most versatile of all time. Yes. Because that's a guy who switches up left, right.

13:54Joe Rogan:There's nothing he can't do in the boxing ring.

13:56Shakur Stevenson:Nothing. Nothing you can't do. And the way he sets people up, we were talking during the podcast I did with him. He did this one sneaky thing where he was throwing a straight left, and then Canelo would go to counter, and he would hook it right off of the punch. Like, on the extension, Canelo would lean back to counter and bop! And catch him on the chin.

14:17Joe Rogan:You could see it. It's like, oh, my God, that's pretty. I've never seen him throw that punch until Canelo, though. That's the crazy part.

14:24Shakur Stevenson:being in the gym with another guy who's an all-time great pound for pound best that is so valuable and so many guys don't like that because they don't want to be the second best or they don't want to be in there with someone who's as good as them you know what i mean like iron sharpens iron for sure and for you to be a young guy who have a guys, Terrence is 10 years older than you? Yeah. Have a guy who's further down the path and be able to see him and absorb all that, that's better than any coach in the world.

14:58Joe Rogan:Yeah, but it's been going on for years. It ain't just a new thing. People don't understand. When I was 19 years old, I was around Terrence. Oh, wow. I was at his house playing him in 2K. We'd go to the gym, argue. Like, he really one of the most competitive persons I ever met in my entire life. You have to be. I just never, like, for me, I just know for a fact my game has up because of that dude.

15:27Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. It has to. It's also, you're seeing this level that is so high in boxing. Like, you can compare it. You could go back and look at Sugar Ray Leonard. You can look at Pernell Whitaker. You look at all these guys, and you can compare Terrence to the people that the pundits sit down and say all-time greats. Terrence is unquestionably an all-time great. He might even be better than them. He might be. He might be. All due respect to the legends. I agree with you. He is that good. He's that good. I feel like there's a thing that was happening before the Canelo fight where a lot of people were sort of dismissing his previous opponents and saying he never beat anybody, and Canelo's another level.

16:09Shakur Stevenson:I know a lot of people bet a lot of money on Canelo. I was like, that's not a good bet.

16:14Joe Rogan:Man, it seems like that's the thing in boxing to where it's like, if they don't know the opponents, if you're not fighting somebody that's like a bigger name, they makes it seem like the opponents is not good. Exactly. And that's like not true. Because at the end of the day, it's low-level opponents that don't get the type of shine that the high-level opponents get, but they will beat the high-level opponent. And are they really high-level opponents at this point?

16:44Shakur Stevenson:I don't know. Well, there's high level and then there's the elite of the elite, right? Yeah, for sure. There's always that. There's like some guys that if they're in, like I always said that about Roy Jones during his prime. Like everybody said, Roy Jones didn't find anybody. Not true. Roy Jones just made everybody look like they weren't anybody. Yeah, for sure. Because he was that insane. He was so elite. Yeah. And that's kind of the problem that Terrence was facing up until the Canelo fight. Because when a guy goes up two weight classes all the way up to 68. Right. I mean, starts his career at 35.

17:21Shakur Stevenson:He's crazy. Last fight, he fights at 68 and then puts on a virtuoso performance. Virtual shutout. Maybe Canelo won one round.

17:30Joe Rogan:Yeah.

17:30Shakur Stevenson:You know, I mean, then everybody has to shut the fuck up.

17:33Joe Rogan:Yeah, he shut everybody up because you had to see, like, he used to say that he wouldn't fight Canelo. Like, he used to be like, oh, Canelo's too big, I wouldn't fight him. Then, like, it's like, out of nowhere, he had a change in mind, and, like, he just went and attacked the situation. And it was a bad situation to be in. Like, you're going to go fight somebody two weight classes higher, punch hard, bigger than you, and you're going to go do that? So, for me, he just, dude is amazing.

18:02Shakur Stevenson:He's amazing. And another amazing example for young fighters, you know, incredibly disciplined, never out of shape, and has all his faculties. Don't smoke, don't drink. Doesn't do anything. All his faculties intact, and he's leaving the game with 100 percent, no undefeated record, no questions asked, fought everybody. There's no one lining up to fight him right now. He's older, and he did it all, and he came out unscathed. Bye-bye.

18:31Joe Rogan:That's my biggest goal.

18:33Shakur Stevenson:It's a perfect goal.

18:34Joe Rogan:My biggest goal is to leave boxing. And when I leave boxing, be good enough, well, not good enough, great enough financially to where I don't ever have to get back in the boxing ring. Like, I don't want to be one of them fighters that's, like, need boxing. Like, I hate that. Like, that's my biggest pet peeve. Like, as long as I'm having fun with boxing, I want to be doing it. But once it's not fun no more, I don't want to have to, oh, we got this$20 million payday. I need it. I don't want to feel that way.

19:09Shakur Stevenson:Like Floyd.

19:10Joe Rogan:Yeah.

19:10Shakur Stevenson:Like the situation that Floyd's in right now. This is crazy. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine right now, and he's like, why is Floyd fighting again? I go, because he needs money. He was like, what? How? Floyd made more money than anybody ever. It's like, yeah, but he spent more money than everybody ever.

19:26Joe Rogan:Yeah, I try to stay out of that because I don't know, like, the real situation with Floyd because I'm not really in tune on it. But the only thing with Floyd that's kind of weird to me is, like, he loves boxing so much. Like, you got to actually be around him. Like, he want to be in the gym. He want to, like—so it'd be hard for me to just believe, like, okay, he's just dead broke. Like, I don't know. It's hard to believe that. Well, if he's not dead broke, he's definitely got issues.

19:59Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. Right? So he's got a bunch of lawsuits where he owes money. You know, Logan Paul says he owes him money. He owes money for some other things. I don't know. I'm with you. I don't know. But it's also, it's like, I like a guy like Andre Ward. I like a guy who goes out on top and, you know, they offered Andre a ton of money to come back and fight Canelo after Canelo beat Kovalev.

20:19Joe Rogan:Yeah.

20:20Shakur Stevenson:And he was like, you know what? I think I serve boxing better as a commentator and a spokesperson for the sport. I made plenty of money. I'm undefeated. Two-division world champion, Olympic gold medalist. Bye-bye. That's it. All faculties intact. No worries about his brain health and everything like that. That's the way to go out.

20:38Joe Rogan:Andre Ward is another dude who helped my career.

20:41Shakur Stevenson:Yeah?

20:41Joe Rogan:He helped my career a lot, too. If I need something, right? Let's say I need something and I need to figure out how to do it or what to do in a situation with weight or whatever it is when it comes to boxing. If I'm calling Andre Ward, he going to give you the best explanation. Out of all the guys, he explains things from detail. He going to detail it and make me really understand what I got to do. Andre Ward is somebody who I looked up to since a kid, so he another guy. I just wasn't around him enough in the gym as I was around Bud. But, like, Andre Ward was my favorite fighter as an amateur.

21:25Joe Rogan:Oh, really? Yes.

21:26Shakur Stevenson:Well, most people don't know that Andre Ward fought most of his career with one arm.

21:31Joe Rogan:Yeah.

21:31Shakur Stevenson:Which is crazy.

21:33Joe Rogan:Which is crazy. That one arm is his best arm. He's left-handed for real, for real. But it's still crazy. It is. It's still crazy.

21:41Shakur Stevenson:Think about all the guys he beat, and he beat them with a left hand.

21:44Joe Rogan:Yeah.

21:45Shakur Stevenson:And then finally got shoulder surgery. and then had a right hand. And still kind of fucked up. It's not 100%.

21:51Joe Rogan:You know the misconception about his career? I feel like when he beat Kovalev, people don't realize how good Kovalev was. Oh, he was good in the day. Like, he was insanely, like, power, boxing, length. He had everything, a great jab, a great right hand. Yeah. And for Andre Ward to go beat that dude,

22:15Shakur Stevenson:that put the stamp on like his career and got dropped yes got dropped and hurt and recovered and still won yeah i mean that was big yeah kovalev people see kovalev when he lost to canelo he was already kind of washed yeah he was already washed he's been drinking a lot yeah there was a lot of you know a lot of these fighters they get to like we're saying it's sustaining that will that drive that discipline that focus it's hard to do but if you go back when he had it man When he was in his prime and he was a world champion, he was fucking everybody up, man. He was a killer. And he was scary. Yeah, he was a killer.

22:51Shakur Stevenson:Scary right hand.

22:53Joe Rogan:He was a piston. I'll go back and watch him, too. He's another guy that I'll go back and watch. I like the way he keeps his distance. He keeps his distance really good. He got that Eastern European. Those guys are really good boxers. When I watch them, I'm like, okay, I love watching Bivov.

23:08Shakur Stevenson:Bivov's amazing. I love it. He's got such an amazing style. I mean, him, Usyk, Lomachenko's kind of a—that's a fight I really wish would have happened between you and him, man. Was there ever talk about that?

23:22Joe Rogan:I messed myself up. I kind of did this to myself, so I understand why a lot of fighters wouldn't fight me. A lot of fighters wouldn't fight me because I sparred them. Oh. And I messed myself up. When I was trying to spar him at that time, I never thought it would be a day of me and him fighting. I didn't think that far down the line. I really was just thinking he was the best fighter in boxing, number one pound for pound. I want to be able to go get in the ring with him and see how I can do. They told me they wasn't even going to pay me for the sparring. I'm like, okay, I'm cool. I don't want to get paid.

24:00Joe Rogan:I'm just here to get in the ring with Limachenko. But years later, yeah, the fight. How did that go? How the sparring went? Yeah. See, I don't diss nobody in sparring, so I can't say that. But you don't have to diss them. I'll keep it real with the sparring. Okay. I felt like I was outboxing him, but I also knew the level he was on was, like, his conditioning. And that's when it made me like, okay, I got to be in, like, tip-top conditioning. Because the first day we sparred, we did six rounds. I feel like it was like, okay, I can outbox him. The next time we sparred, he made me do 12 straight.

24:42Joe Rogan:Really? Yeah. So he made me do 12 straight. For the first eight, I'm good. Like, I'm good for eight. But, like, the last four rounds, I want to say, he started, like, picking up the pace. He ain't get off on me, but he got the better of the last four rounds, I would say.

25:01Shakur Stevenson:And you feel like it was because of fatigue a little bit?

25:03Joe Rogan:Yeah, it was for sure because of fatigue. But it wasn't like the skills. Skillfully, I felt like I was the better fighter. I felt like my range and my distance and my speed was kind of better than his. But from a standpoint of being in shape and throwing more punches, I felt like he was kind of— But he was getting ready for his fight. I was getting ready for my fight, too.

25:27Shakur Stevenson:Well, that's a very valuable learning experience, right?

25:30Joe Rogan:Yeah.

25:30Shakur Stevenson:You mean better to learn it then than to learn it in a fight.

25:34Joe Rogan:Yeah, but for real, it messed me up because now it's like if I'm Lemachenko and I know he was, what, 126 pounds at the time. He was a kid. Now I see him all grown up. He bigger, stronger. And I seen what he was doing as a kid. I probably be like, why would I test the water with him? I'm like, I wouldn't really want to see that guy. That's not the guy I would want to see.

26:02Shakur Stevenson:That's funny. So you think that those sparring matches were the reason why you never got a fight with him?

26:09Joe Rogan:Yeah, for sure. I was surprised Tio fought me, honestly. I was very surprised.

26:16Shakur Stevenson:Did you spar him as well? Yeah. Yeah.

26:18Joe Rogan:But when we sparred, we only did three rounds. But he made it seem like he kind of got off on me. But honestly, I felt like I was the best fighter.

26:29Shakur Stevenson:Well, Tio's a very headstrong guy.

26:30Joe Rogan:Yeah. He's tough.

26:31Shakur Stevenson:Very tough, very confident guy. I mean, look, when he beat Lomachenko, that was a standout performance. He had that piston jab, man.

26:39Joe Rogan:Ooh, he was sharp. Ooh, he was sharp in that fight. I watched that fight a thousand times before my fight.

26:42Shakur Stevenson:Well, I just think he knew that Lomachenko was a ghost. He was so hard to hit. And just he came out explosive. He looked so good in that fight.

26:51Joe Rogan:Lemachenko had a speed to, like, get his respect. Like, I feel like Teal was kind of faster, and he knew, like, from a speed standpoint he was going to use it to his advantage.

27:03Shakur Stevenson:Also, Teal was a lot bigger, and he was dangerous. Like, he was throwing danger with every punch. Even that jab had danger behind it.

27:10Joe Rogan:It was crazy. I felt like he was strong when I was fighting him. Oh, he's strong as fuck, man. Everybody think that he wasn't, but I'm like, man, I ain't going to lie. It was some shots like I would catch on a glove and I'd be like, I don't know what you doing in your training, bro. Don't come to Sali.

27:28Shakur Stevenson:But look at the size of that motherfucker. I mean, he's jacked. He looks great. He's ripped. Yeah, he's just. But, you know, he's not done. And a fight like that with you is a wake-up call for a guy like him, too. It's like, man, I got to tighten some shit. It's 50-50, though.

27:42Joe Rogan:It's 50-50 because sometimes they can play with your mental. So some guys don't be the same after getting embarrassed in front of the world like that.

27:51Shakur Stevenson:Well, he's come back before, like the Kambosis fight. Kambosis dropped him early, and that was a crazy upset.

27:59Joe Rogan:Yeah, but it was different. Because in this instance, he got really embarrassed with Kambosis. It was like it was a 50-50. He felt like he won the fight. He left feeling that way.

28:10Shakur Stevenson:But getting dropped by Kambosis, nobody saw that coming.

28:13Joe Rogan:No, I didn't see that coming either. I ain't gonna lie.

28:15Shakur Stevenson:I think it was like second round too, right?

28:18Joe Rogan:It was the first round, but T.O. was fighting dumb. I never seen T.O. even fight like that either. He went in there like just trying to knock him out from the first round.

28:25Shakur Stevenson:I think after the Lomachenko fight, he felt like this dude is not on my level. I'm the best fighter in the world. You know, that can fuck with your head too. Overconfidence can fuck with your head. Yeah, I be trying to like stay away from that.

28:39Joe Rogan:because I'm very confident in myself. So I be scared of being too confident. So I be trying to make guys bigger in my brain. Like, oh, this guy, he's the truth. That's smart. Yeah, I got to. I don't have no choice because I'm very confident.

28:57Shakur Stevenson:We've all seen fighters that go in unprepared and think that a fighter is not on their level. And then that guy puts a... Knock them out. Buster Douglas and Mike Tyson. Perfect example. 42 to 1 underdog and it was a perfect storm because Buster's mom had just died and Buster was always one of those guys that was known to be super talented in the gym super talented but not dedicated, just not driven just didn't make the most of his talent but for that one fight he was like, I'm fighting Mike Tyson I'm not scared of him, my mom is dead I'm putting in the fucking work and he came out throwing that jab with the hook off the jab Pop, whap!

29:38Shakur Stevenson:Pop, whap! And it was a totally different Buster Douglas. Like, the best Buster Douglas we've ever seen, ever. That final combination when he knocked Mike Tyson out. Dude, I didn't even watch that fight live. A friend of mine told me about it. I was like, are you fucking serious? He told me at the gas station. He's like, Buster Douglas knocked out Mike Tyson. I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? And then I went home and watched it. And even while I knew that Buster Douglas had won, I expected Mike Tyson to get up and kill him. I was like, I can't believe this is happening. Yeah, for sure.

30:11Shakur Stevenson:That's how much of an upset that was.

30:13Joe Rogan:Yeah, that was definitely one of the biggest upset. I think, I don't know because I wasn't during that time, but from what I've seen, it just looked like Mike didn't expect him to be that good. Like, it was a shocker. I think it was a shocker for everybody. Yeah. Well, that's... But that's boxing. That's what could happen in the sport. I've seen that happen plenty of times. And honestly, it be some guys that I see in a gym that I'm like, bro, if you do that stuff on fight night, bro, you probably be champion of the world. I guess a lot of gym fighters who really got talent. But yeah, when I'm bright lights come on, a lot of fighters be kind of different.

30:54Shakur Stevenson:And what do you think that is?

30:56Joe Rogan:I think it's pressure. I think it's nerves. I think it's like it's a lot. It's a lot because I know I felt it like I felt it. for my fight with T.O. I felt pressure. I felt all of that kind of stuff, but I'm too tough. Like, I know my mental ain't gone. It's me or that person at the end of the day. My life or your life, man. I'm going to choose my life when it come down to it. So I was good, but I know it's a lot of fighters that I see in the gym, and I'm like, man, I don't understand how you don't perform like this under the lights.

31:31Shakur Stevenson:There's always guys like that. There's always guys that are potential world champions in the gym. And, you know, some people bank on them and some, you know, you go, this guy just needs a mental coach, needs something to get him over that hump. But it's always interesting to me because what is the difference between a guy who could just walk out there on fight day and perform at 100 % of his ability versus a guy who gets dwarfed by the moment? The moment comes, the big pressure.

31:59Joe Rogan:Yeah. It's all mental. It's all in your head.

32:02Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

32:02Joe Rogan:What you thinking and what you believe in and the things that's going on in your brain is what's going to come out. Like, I'm already telling myself. Like I said, I tell myself it's either me or whom. So my life or your life. And one of us got to go.

32:19Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. One of us got to go. But what do you think is going on? I mean, everybody experiences pressure. Everybody experiences nerves. but what is it about fighters that are so talented that let that overcome them versus fighters oftentimes they're maybe not even as talented but they rise to the occasion when those lights are on when those lights are on there are fighters that fight better like sometimes they look shit in the gym and then when those bright lights are on moments like that i don't have moments where i'm like man i felt bad in the gym i don't know what i had this camp this was a horrible camp and then

32:57Joe Rogan:And the fight night coming, I'm like, on point.

32:59Shakur Stevenson:Well, you know, that's what they said about Ali when he fought George Foreman. Yeah. They said he looked terrible in the gym and everybody was nervous about him. But he had a strategy.

33:07Joe Rogan:I think with, like, some fighters, it's fear. Like, I think it's fear of, like, losing or fear of the negative happening. And I think with some fighters, they allow fear to control them. Yeah. As in some other fighters who, if I get fearful, I'm going to attack my fears. I'm not scared to even go and give it a try. Whatever happened is going to happen at the end of the day. It's all written already.

33:32Shakur Stevenson:Is this something that you built up over time? Or is it something someone imparted on you when you were young and you embraced it? How did you learn to have that champion mindset?

33:43Joe Rogan:I think it's wild to say, but I think it's really my little brothers and my little sisters. But really my little brothers. I used to go to amateur tournaments and if I lose and I gotta come home to my little brothers oh they on me they on me and it's like you gotta come home and they remember the name of the opponent that beat you and they would throw it in your face oh don't make me go get Joseph Adorno that's a real guy that beat me back in the day shout out to Joseph Adorno but um I used to have to hear that in the house and now I still be with them, so it's like I know I got to go home to my little brothers and see them after these fights.

34:30Joe Rogan:And I had that in the back of my head. I'm not coming home to them without the win. They got us no.

34:38Shakur Stevenson:Did you tell your little brothers that they do that for you?

34:41Joe Rogan:No, I don't even think I ever said it to them. It just was so natural because I used to always get in fights with them and they used to always bring up an opponent that beat me, And I'm like, now if I beat everybody, they can't say it no more.

34:53Shakur Stevenson:That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

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35:48Shakur Stevenson:Well, because different fighters develop, you know, different ways of rising to the occasion, different ways of maintaining a championship's mindset. And some of them, they learn it from their coach, you know, Customato famously trained Tyson and even hypnotized him and told him that you don't exist, only the task exists. And he had Mike Tyson just like a fucking machine when he would get into that ring.

36:13Joe Rogan:I think, shout out to my grandfather too, because my grandfather is my coach, and, like, his energy during fight week, like, they don't even realize, like, it wasn't even just the coaching that he was doing. It's like the energy that he kind of gave off to me, it reminded me of me when, like, I was a kid and me and him would go to amateur tournaments, and, like, he just so, like, amped up and, like, ready, and, like, it kind of brought on to me, and it kind of got me, like, amped up as him. Like, okay, I got to stand on business for my grandfather. I got to. I don't got no choice. Oh, wow. But he's definitely a great coach.

36:54Shakur Stevenson:So family is a big thing for you.

36:56Joe Rogan:Yeah, family is everything for me. Like, I enjoy spending time with my family. Like, I'm not like a lot of these boxers. Like, with all due respect to them, they like the fame, the all that kind of stuff the cars the I'm more so like I get a big check I wanna go on vacay with my family or go chill with my family and I don't like doing stuff like I enjoy spending time with my daughter

37:25Shakur Stevenson:that's great like I'm different

37:27Joe Rogan:I'm not like them guys like

37:29Shakur Stevenson:that's so smart it's so smart because all that other shit just drains your bank account distracts you from your goals gets in the way of things

37:39Joe Rogan:It's like when I was a kid, I used to want the fame. I used to be like, oh, I want to be famous. I want everybody to know me. But it's like once you get it, it's like, ah, I don't like this. I don't like this. Like you go places, people pulling their phones out and like.

37:58Shakur Stevenson:It's weird, right?

37:59Joe Rogan:They trying to record you. Like, bro, why are you? I'm just a regular person. Like, that's how I feel. Like everybody bleeds. We all the same. We all human. So I kind of move with that kind of thought process, and I feel like a lot of people don't move with that, especially people in my position.

38:17Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, you can get inflated. Your head can get screwy. It's like you've got to balance two things at the same time. One, you are the elite of the elite. You are a world champion and one of the pound-for-pound best to ever do it. And then on top of that, you're just a human being.

38:31Joe Rogan:Yes.

38:32Shakur Stevenson:And we're all just human beings. But what we like, what people love about watching championship caliber fighters and championship performances in any sport is watching just a regular human do something extraordinary. And that gives us inspiration. When I watch a great fight, I feel better for the rest of the day. When I go to bed, I feel great. I watched that fight. I went to bed. I was like, woo. I felt great. I text Josh right after it was happening. in and uh that's how we got in touch yeah josh dubin shout out to josh but i remember i texted him i'm like dude that was extraordinary and then next thing you know we're on the phone

39:15Joe Rogan:definitely was a great um great night great night of boxing i enjoyed it um i'm just glad to be here like all glory to god i'm glad to be here um i've been here i got been here i've been telling people like, I'm the best. I'm better than these guys.

39:30Shakur Stevenson:You have, but you needed that breakout. You're right. You needed that breakout performance. And the problem is everybody knew you were so good, it was hard to get someone to sign up for that breakout performance. Because for a breakout performance, you need another dude who's had breakout performances that everybody respects and knows, like Tia Fimo.

39:47Joe Rogan:Yeah, that was my main reason to fight him. I'm telling you, I watched him in Times Square. I looked. I said, we fight him. We fight him. I want to fight him. He looked really good. He looked really good.

40:00Shakur Stevenson:That Times Square card was weird.

40:01Joe Rogan:He was the best fighter on the card.

40:03Shakur Stevenson:100%.

40:04Joe Rogan:No question.

40:05Shakur Stevenson:It looked like everybody was playing it safe on that card.

40:08Joe Rogan:Yeah, it did. It did. Like, Devin Haney.

40:10Shakur Stevenson:The Devin Haney fight was odd. What I learned from that card, I felt like them fighters didn't have enough adrenaline pumping.

40:19Joe Rogan:Like, I feel like Ryan, I know when he got in the ring, his adrenaline couldn't have been, like, too high because it was, like, sparring. Like, it was, like, not a lot of people there. It wasn't, like, that much pressure. You could hear everything somebody is saying. I know Ryan heard me all night. Like, he had to hear me. I was cheering him on, like, telling him, like, man, throw the hook, throw the hook, throw the hook.

40:43Shakur Stevenson:That was when he fought Roley, right? Yeah. Yeah, that was a wake-up call, too. Yeah. That was another fight where people did not expect Roley to beat Ryan.

40:51Joe Rogan:Yeah, I'd be throwing off. I didn't expect it either. That was one of the fights where I kind of like vouched for Ryan. I'm like, man, he got skills. He's a skillful fighter. Then he got in there and I don't know what he was doing. Like I didn't understand what was happening.

41:06Shakur Stevenson:You know, it's one of them things where he has the fight with Devin. He beats Devin, gets popped, you know, for whatever he was on, Osterine. And then there's, like, he's got a long time off. There's a lot of people mad at him. There's a lot of people, you know, which is such an unfortunate thing if you think about his performance against Devin because that was incredible.

41:32Joe Rogan:Yeah, but the problem is he got caught.

41:36Shakur Stevenson:He got caught, yeah.

41:37Joe Rogan:So, like, I don't know. Like, for me personally, if you got caught, it's like I can't really. Me, I can't give you the credit for that.

41:45Shakur Stevenson:Right.

41:46Joe Rogan:I don't give him credit for that night with Devin.

41:50Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, but steroids don't help you land punches.

41:53Joe Rogan:I get you.

41:53Shakur Stevenson:They help you recover in training. They help you train a little harder. They might give you a little bit more power, but that left hook was on point.

42:00Joe Rogan:Yeah, but that little bit more power probably wasn't enough to hurt Devin. Because if you really watch the fight and pay attention to the fight, and people might not agree with me on this, but I feel like Devin was winning the moments that was quiet. Like when people's not really, ah, Devin is winning most of the boxing match, but the moments where Ryan was so loud and everybody got to see him get hurt and knocked down. to where like I just feel like Devin if he didn't get dropped by them punches, he could have won that fight.

42:39Shakur Stevenson:But he did get dropped. That's the problem. And also, I think...

42:43Joe Rogan:What if the Asterring was helping his power?

42:45Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. I mean, what was his last fight against? Delgado? Who was his last opponent? Who? Ryan. Who was the guy who just beat?

42:54Joe Rogan:Mario Barrios. Barrios, that's right.

42:56Shakur Stevenson:Barrios is a guy that was like tailor-made for a guy like Ryan. Like, he's a tough dude. He's very durable. Takes a good shot. For sure. But he's not that fast. He's not, yeah. And Ryan was super fast in that fight. Yeah. Ryan looked good. He looked real good. Yeah, he looked good. He looked good. Real good in that fight.

43:16Joe Rogan:And it wasn't just like, because people think when I'm saying like, oh, well, you don't know whether he's cheating or not. I'm not saying that in the aspect of his boxing skills. Like, he clearly got boxing skills. Like, you can clearly see Ryan know how to move his feet, you know how to keep his distance, use his long length. He can clearly box. I've been saying this for years, so.

43:40Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, he boxes very well. And also, he showed that he has a right hand, too.

43:45Joe Rogan:Yeah, that was surprising. Yeah. And he used it, like, the whole night. Like, he just kept throwing it. So that was very surprising.

43:52Shakur Stevenson:But, I mean, of course, if you want to be a complete fighter, he had to develop a right hand and start using it more because that left hook is just world class.

44:00Joe Rogan:Yeah, and he was not only, like, throwing it straight. He was throwing it around the guard. That was kind of— It was beautiful. Yeah, it was nice. It was a beautiful performance for him.

44:08Shakur Stevenson:Has there been any talk about you two matching up?

44:10Joe Rogan:Yeah, it has. But, like I said, everything got to make sense. Like, people don't understand that I walk around in my 40s. So if I'm walking around in my 40s, I don't think, like, me going to 147. When I fight at 147, I think that would be my last weight class in my career. I don't see myself going past 147 ever. But I'm 28 right now. I got a long way to go. So I don't plan on moving to 47 no time soon. So if the fight happens at whatever weight class that I say, then I'm cool with it. Can he make 40 again? He said he could. He the one who came out and said, let's fight at 140. He said that. So if he said that, it's like, okay, you can make the weight, then let's do it.

45:00Shakur Stevenson:What weight was the Gervonta fight? Was that 140?

45:02Joe Rogan:That fight was at 136. That's right.

45:05Shakur Stevenson:And then he gave him a rehydration clause, too.

45:07Joe Rogan:Yeah, 10 pounds, yep. Very smart.

45:11Shakur Stevenson:Very smart. Very smart, right?

45:14Joe Rogan:I mean, yeah, it was. Gervonta is smart. It was in that situation, but I mean, I just feel like with the rehydration clause at that time when you're already bringing somebody down to like a weight class that they haven't fought in years it's like you could have not put the rehydration clause like it wasn't necessary

45:34Shakur Stevenson:at that point in time i think it was necessary i think it helped a lot it did it helped a lot if you if you can only rehydrate 10 pounds and you know he's way bigger than that ryan's a big

45:44Joe Rogan:guy he looked weak on fight night like he looked extremely weak but i guess those dollars that

45:50Shakur Stevenson:paycheck was just too tempting. I never understood that move.

45:55Joe Rogan:I never understood it. Because if I'm Ryan Garcia and I got a big name in the sport and all of that kind of stuff, why would I accept everything into somebody else's favor? I think

46:06Shakur Stevenson:because that's the only way he could get the fight. You know? Well, this is the same thing when Canelo fought Floyd, right? Floyd made him go down to 152. Remember?

46:16Joe Rogan:But it was no rehydration clause.

46:18Shakur Stevenson:Was it?

46:19Joe Rogan:Nope. No? It wasn't.

46:20Shakur Stevenson:Even if there's not.

46:22Joe Rogan:Floyd, they never rehydration clause nobody.

46:24Shakur Stevenson:Well, that's good. But if you make a guy get down to 152, even if you give him a rehydration clause, like, that's going to drain something out of your tank.

46:32Joe Rogan:But is it right? Because my question is, wasn't they fighting at 154? Wasn't Canelo fighting at 154?

46:38Shakur Stevenson:Normally, yeah. So he only came down two pounds. But you know that last—you're not a big weight cutter, but if you were, that last two pounds is death.

46:47Joe Rogan:Oh, for sure.

46:48Shakur Stevenson:When you're already drained out, because he was a big guy for 154. And to drain out and get all the way down to 152, that had to be hard. He didn't look the same on fight day.

46:58Joe Rogan:You don't even think so?

46:59Shakur Stevenson:Well, I think Floyd was just a virtuoso that night. I mean, Floyd looked so good that night.

47:05Joe Rogan:That night, I don't think if he was 154, 160, I don't think he was beating Floyd.

47:12Shakur Stevenson:I think you're probably right. But I also think Floyd was smart to get him down to 152.

47:16Joe Rogan:For sure, the business.

47:17Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, it's like every angle you can get, every advantage you can get is a good one. I do agree with you about the rehydration clause. Like, get out of here with that.

47:26Joe Rogan:But we got to understand, too, right? Because I get Floyd in that instincts. If a guy is going to blow up to, let's say, what? We'll just do me and Ryan Garcia, for example. Okay. I'm going to blow up, like, 148. he's gonna blow up 168 to 170 now it's like you in a ring with somebody that is like 20 pounds bigger than you and Floyd still allowed Canelo to get big because he got big at the getting down to 152 so it's like I kind of feel it in a way like I understand it now the rehydration clause is kind of crazy but I will only do a rehydration clause for fighters if I go up to 147 pounds because I'm not a 147-pounder.

48:17Joe Rogan:So why would I fight at their weight class where they're comfortable and just make it easy for them?

48:23Shakur Stevenson:Well, the thing about a fighter like you is it's just difficult to find big names. I mean, if Gervonta fights again, that's a big fight, but that would probably be at 135, which you could probably still make easy, right? Easy. No problem. So you have fights at 135 and fights at 140, but it's just going to be hard to get someone to step up that is going to be that big pay-per-view selling fight.

48:50Joe Rogan:Yeah. That's the problem. That is the problem. You're too good.

48:53Shakur Stevenson:That's the problem.

48:54Joe Rogan:You're too good. Somebody told me that before I went pro before. They was like, you're going to have a hard time in the pros. I'm telling you.

49:01Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

49:02Joe Rogan:But I understand it now.

49:04Shakur Stevenson:Do you remember your first pro fight? Do you remember what it felt like?

49:07Joe Rogan:It felt like a whole new experience.

49:09Shakur Stevenson:Really?

49:10Joe Rogan:Yeah. How so? When I was in the amateurs, guys wasn't as dirty as the professionals. You don't get introduced into dirty boxing until you turn professional. Didn't you get headbutted in your first fight? I got headbutted. He headbutted me. On purpose, right? Yes. Not an accidental headbutt. That's what kind of make me say, okay, I understand. And this is a whole different atmosphere. It's not the same amateur and the pros. And a lot of guys from the amateurs don't adjust to the pros as well as I did.

49:50Shakur Stevenson:Well, it's all about styles, right? Like there's some guys who have styles that are just much better for point fighting and fighting amateurs.

49:57Joe Rogan:No, it's actually you got to develop a lot of things like punch placement. Like, punching hard is really a real thing in the pros. Like, you got to have something to make somebody respect you. That's why when I hear people say, like, I got pillow hands, I'm like, y 'all clearly must not be watching. Who's saying that? It'd be a lot of people. They say I got pillow hands. No, you just fight smart. Yeah. I don't understand it because it's like if I had pillow hands, right, why guys don't just go in there and just knock me out? Like, if I'm fighting somebody with pillow hands, I'm just going to put my shield up and just swing for the fences because they can't hurt me.

50:38Joe Rogan:Like, I don't understand why nobody won't do that if I got pillow hands.

50:42Shakur Stevenson:You don't have pillow hands. It's nonsense talk. What you have is a boxing intelligence where you know when to hit full blast and when to just touch them up and crack them a little bit. and the accumulation of blows, the frustration, the mental confusion that a fighter gets when they can't hit you and you can hit them, and then you start ramping it up, and then you start tuning them up. The people that are saying that just don't understand what you're doing. Yeah, for sure. What you're doing is just perfect. You're fighting intelligent, and that's what I love. I love watching a guy just outbox the fuck out of somebody.

51:19Shakur Stevenson:I love it. Like I said, you were doing this half-speed jab, and then from right there, pop! And you could tell Tio was like, Jesus Christ. You could tell he was confused. It was so fast. It was so fast. But that accumulation of blows over time. And his corner, it was crazy. Did you listen to the fight? Did you go back and watch it? Yeah, I went back and watched it. His corner's like, you gotta hit him. Like, what?

51:46Joe Rogan:It's so crazy, though, because, like, what I see with his corner is, like, he been doing this. Like, his dad been getting in the ring and giving him them type of instructions. But T.O. has been always so good to where the instructions he's giving him really does not matter because he's in control. He's winning these fights. He's doing what he's supposed to do. But that night, he did need. He needed a real coach. He needed something better than that.

52:14Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. Yeah, well, not that his dad's not a real coach, but he needed some tactical advice. He needed some instruction on what this guy's doing to you, and you got to switch it up entirely. You got to do something that confuses him.

52:25Joe Rogan:His dad is used to, like, something different. That's why he went in there and said, like, where's your power, bro? He's used to T.O.'s power showing up and the amazing things that T.O. does in the boxing ring. He's used to that. But whenever you're going against somebody who's on a different level, also you got to be well prepared within, like, a game plan. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. And I didn't see no game plan.

52:53Shakur Stevenson:Did you know anybody that was in his camp or ask anybody after the fight, like, what was his game plan? What did he think was going to be different?

53:02Joe Rogan:Nah, I didn't, actually. I just—

53:04Shakur Stevenson:I'd be interested to know that.

53:06Joe Rogan:Yeah, I do too. But I did run into him after the fight. I ran into T.O. in the back.

53:11Shakur Stevenson:Was he cool?

53:12Joe Rogan:Yeah, he was cool. It was actually a good conversation. I felt bad that he was by himself. His manager kind of clinked it up. But during the moment that I seen him in the back, he was by himself. So I didn't like that. I didn't like that. No, that's a bummer. Yeah. But, I mean, they said they was with him all night. So respect to them.

53:32Shakur Stevenson:So maybe you just caught him in a moment when he was alone.

53:35Joe Rogan:Bad moment, yep.

53:36Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, that's the last thing you want to see is a dude who gets abandoned after a loss. It's like, oh, my God. And then you got to go back to camp with those assholes?

53:43Joe Rogan:I don't even like how the sport is kind of treating him now. Like, everybody acts like he's just this terrible fighter, but.

53:50Shakur Stevenson:Oh, that's crazy.

53:51Joe Rogan:I don't understand it when you got to give him respect. Like, this dude actually stepped up and fought a guy that nobody else wants to fight. So.

53:59Shakur Stevenson:Exactly. He did it. He got in the ring.

54:01Joe Rogan:Yeah. He laid it on the line. It didn't go his way, but he did. He tried.

54:05Shakur Stevenson:The thing is, I don't know if that guy's ever going to separate from his father. I don't know if that guy ever is going to bring in another world-class trainer that maybe would be able to recognize some things that he's doing that he can prove upon.

54:17Joe Rogan:You know what's so crazy? During the fight, he had a coach in his corner, and I know the coach. He's from Florida, I want to say. His coach was telling him some good advice. I don't think he heard him or was listening to him, but he was telling him some good advice.

54:34Shakur Stevenson:Really?

54:34Joe Rogan:Yeah, I don't want to say what the advice is because I got future opponents. I got to make sure.

54:40Shakur Stevenson:Well, someone can go back and listen.

54:41Joe Rogan:Yeah, I can't tell what the advice was, but he was giving him some good advice.

54:47Shakur Stevenson:Interesting. Yeah, it's hard. Those father-son teams, there's always a lot of conflict with those.

54:55Joe Rogan:Yeah, because I done watched it over the years. I feel like dads stay on top of their fighter, and they make it less fun. And I feel like that's why I think my granddad is one of the best coaches because he allowed me to love the sport of boxing myself. When I had my football games and my Pop Warner games, he came to my game, watched them cheer, don't want to support me. but as soon as I lost I'm on the field crying I'm like oh he comes up to me he say And, you know, in boxing, you only could lose because of yourself. And I'm looking, I'm like, what do you mean by, oh, that is true. Because, like, you're the one in a boxing ring doing the boxing.

55:49Joe Rogan:And when I lost that football game, he was basically trying to say it was my coach's fault. So, like, he just allowed me to choose boxing, though. He always supported me when I did other things, but he ain't just stay on top of me, hound me with it.

56:08Shakur Stevenson:He just took me to the gym. Well, you got to let a young man become his own man.

56:13Joe Rogan:Yeah, he allowed me to choose it. And I think fathers in the sport don't allow their sons to choose it too. They're choosing it for them.

56:22Shakur Stevenson:Right, and a lot of them are overbearing in the corner. It becomes a problem.

56:27Joe Rogan:Yeah. Yeah. And they kind of be – coaches should listen to what I'm about to say. They're father coaches. There has to be a difference between a father and a coach. So when you're coaching your son, you have to be a coach in the boxing ring instead of the father because when you're the father, they're going to reciprocate things wrong. I feel like with coaches, when you're coaching, they can hear you a lot better. Walmart Business is in the business of saving you time, money, and hassle. Whether your business started in a garage or is a garage, Walmart Business has the tools to help you get where you're going.

57:11Joe Rogan:Tools like free shipping, multi-user accounts, and just about any item your company needs. Even a double filtration cyclone dust collector.

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57:58Shakur Stevenson:Tax Act. Let's get them over with. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's also the relationship with the father and the son where the father wants his son to listen to him. Listen to me. I'm your father. You go out. You're going to do this.

58:08Joe Rogan:And you're like, fuck off me. Yeah. Fuck off me, dad. And you're doing more harm to your son than actually doing good for him.

58:15Shakur Stevenson:Well, especially not giving him technical advice. Yeah. Like that is where he needed real technical advice. Yeah. Because there was a lot of shit you were doing that he just did not have an answer for.

58:25Joe Rogan:He didn't understand.

58:26Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

58:26Joe Rogan:He didn't understand. He didn't clean up his bad habits. That's the thing with these fighters. A lot of them got bad habits and things that they do, and I'm going to expose it.

58:36Shakur Stevenson:Well, I mean, the environment that you came up in and having a guy like Terrence and having other elite fighters that you train with all the time, that's so important. It's so invaluable because all that shit gets exposed in the gym. It does.

58:51Joe Rogan:That's where you work on it at.

58:52Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

58:52Joe Rogan:That's where you work on it. If you ain't work on it in the gym, on fight night, it's going to be exposed.

58:57Shakur Stevenson:There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. Yeah. How important do you think an amateur career is? Do you think a guy like Lomachenko maybe would have been an even better boxer if he didn't have so many amateur fights? and went into the pros at an earlier age?

59:15Joe Rogan:I think an amateur career is important because you got to have the experience. But I done seen different to where, like, guys have developed a lot more in the gym. Like, I done seen guys stay in the gym, not go to tournaments, and they'll get better and better. And then out of nowhere, they'll go to one tournament, and then you'll be like, who the fuck is this guy? Right. Where did he come from? How did he get so good? And I think, like, developing in a gym is, like, the biggest thing. Like, who you sparring, who you training with, all of that stuff really matters the most. The amateur experience is cool.

59:53Joe Rogan:Like, oh, Lomachenko. But if Lomachenko had different things around him in a gym, I feel like he probably would have been a better fighter. And he was already good.

1:00:02Shakur Stevenson:Well, it's also with Lomachenko, it's so crazy because he really should have been fighting at 126. I mean, he really was never a 140-pound fighter. Yes. He's a small guy.

1:00:11Joe Rogan:Yeah, I don't understand that. I didn't understand that because I think it kind of tarnished his career in a way to the way people look at him. People don't look at him the same as they should because he was really, really good. But he was at a weight class that he really wasn't supposed to be at. So, of course, you're going to have a harder time with them bigger guys.

1:00:34Shakur Stevenson:Right, like T.O.

1:00:35Joe Rogan:Yeah, like T.O. Yeah, that was a perfect example.

1:00:38Shakur Stevenson:T.O. was huge in that fight. He looks so much bigger than Lomachenko and just so dangerous that it, like, fucked Lomachenko's strategy up. Because, you know, you got missiles coming at you from a giant dude. I mean, Tio's stacked.

1:00:49Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:00:50Shakur Stevenson:And so you got to think, like, for those guys, I guess it's just about chasing the multiple world titles and the bigger money at the higher weight classes.

1:01:00Joe Rogan:Yeah, that's what, with Lomachenko, though, he act like he wasn't really, like, super money hungry. So I never really understood. It seemed like he was chasing undisputed.

1:01:10Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, undisputed in world titles. I feel like he got robbed in the Devin Haney fight, though. Do you think that?

1:01:18Joe Rogan:To this day, yeah, I do think. I scored the fight for Lomachenko.

1:01:22Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, I did, too. I watched it three times in a row because I was like, what am I getting wrong here? Am I getting this wrong before I start talking about it? Yeah. And I was like, no, no, Lomachenko should have won.

1:01:31Joe Rogan:Yeah, I thought Lomachenko won.

1:01:33Shakur Stevenson:That was one of those where I was like, ooh. And I think that fight fucked with Devin Haney's head a little bit. Like, that makes you feel like shit. When you win a fight and everybody thinks that you lost the fight and you got, like, then you have to carry that around with you everywhere. Like, Loachego beat you. You're like, no, he didn't. Yeah, it's a mental battle. Yeah. It's a mental battle. And then you got to get it back.

1:01:53Joe Rogan:I think in that fight, he really wasn't even fighting the best version of Devin because Devin was fighting at a weight class he really shouldn't have been at.

1:02:02Shakur Stevenson:What was that fight at? Was that 135? Yeah. You think Devin should have been at 140?

1:02:07Joe Rogan:At that time, yeah, he should have been at 140. He was too big for 35.

1:02:11Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. It's interesting, man, that balance of we're all fucked up in MMA because MMA, there's too few weight classes. And so there's giant gaps, like huge gaps, like at 185 to 205, you know, 155 to 170. There's no weight classes in between. I mean, that's nuts.

1:02:32Joe Rogan:Yeah, that's insane. I agree. I mean, it's guys that's like little fighting bigger guys because it ain't enough weight classes for them to be in. So that sounds crazy.

1:02:43Shakur Stevenson:It's stupid. And it's the one major complaint that I've had with the UFC for a decade. I was like, we need way more weight classes. And they're like, no, we're going to keep it pure. These are the champs. It's only eight champs. Like, no, that's crazy. I need to start watching the UFC. Oh, it's fun. There's one this weekend in Vegas if you're around.

1:03:01Joe Rogan:I'm going to watch some of it.

1:03:02Shakur Stevenson:It's a good one. I'm going to watch it because I'm lost.

1:03:06Joe Rogan:I'm not really in tune with a lot of the UFC guys, and the UFC people be kind of mad at me when I say boxing is better, but it's my sport.

1:03:16Shakur Stevenson:Of course you're going to think it's better. It's what your life is based around. For sure. Of course. And if you talk to Max Holloway, he's going to say MMA is better. Exactly.

1:03:25Joe Rogan:And they got good explanations. I understand what they're saying. It's more like skills you've got to learn in MMA, But for me, I just feel like boxing, like the skill level and the talent, for me, I like better.

1:03:39Shakur Stevenson:Well, there is no question. The skill level and the talent when it comes to punching is way better in boxing. You see some sloppy shit that people do in MMA with boxing. But you also have to think they're thinking about takedowns. They're thinking about getting kicked. They're thinking about their calves getting kicked out from under them. Their legs getting kicked. Their body getting kicked.

1:03:59Joe Rogan:So it's messing up their punching, huh?

1:04:01Shakur Stevenson:Everything knees elbows and then there's stuff that you do in boxing that you can't do in MMA because like your legs exposed Yeah, you know There's certain positions that you you would throw punches in that a guy would just calf kick you And you get hit with one of those like oh shit And also your calf is numb and you're not moving good your ankle doesn't work. Yeah, it's terrible But that's the beauty of that sport is that it's so diverse But the beauty of boxing is that it's so concentrated on hand techniques that the boxing techniques in boxing are far superior than what you're going to see in MMA.

1:04:36Shakur Stevenson:You see a few guys in MMA that could make it as pro boxers, but you don't see your level or, you know, or...

1:04:44Joe Rogan:They can't be elite level, basically.

1:04:46Shakur Stevenson:No, there's no way you can.

1:04:48Joe Rogan:Impossible. No. You ain't been doing it for long enough.

1:04:51Shakur Stevenson:Just like you don't see these elite MMA fighters that could compete in jiu-jitsu tournaments and win world championships. It's very, very rare. The only way that happens is if they were a world champion in jiu-jitsu before they got into MMA and they still have those skills at a very, very high level, then some of those guys can kind of compete in world-class levels.

1:05:12Joe Rogan:So what would you say is the best skill in the MMA?

1:05:18Shakur Stevenson:Wrestling.

1:05:18Joe Rogan:Wrestling. I knew it. I already knew it before I asked.

1:05:21Shakur Stevenson:Because wrestlers can take everybody down. And if you get taken down, you're fucked. I want to learn how to wrestle. Well, Terrence, to show you how. Terrence is like one of the only boxers that I like. If that guy fought in MMA, he could do very well. He would. He would do very well.

1:05:36Joe Rogan:I watched him wrestle an actual USA team wrestler. He was kind of good.

1:05:43Shakur Stevenson:He could wrestle.

1:05:44Joe Rogan:Yeah, he was good. He wasn't getting.

1:05:47Shakur Stevenson:He's not lost.

1:05:48Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:05:49Shakur Stevenson:He knows what he's doing. And look, his son just won a state title.

1:05:51Joe Rogan:Yeah, for sure. He's the truth.

1:05:53Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

1:05:53Joe Rogan:I want to learn how to wrestle, though.

1:05:55Shakur Stevenson:It's a good thing to know. It's a good thing because it's a humbling thing.

1:05:58Joe Rogan:I feel like they're the strongest people.

1:06:00Shakur Stevenson:Oh, yeah.

1:06:00Joe Rogan:Like, I feel like when they come to strength, like real strength, their bodies are, like, stronger than most.

1:06:07Shakur Stevenson:Oh, it's a different thing. When they get a hold of you, you feel like a child. You just get ragdolled. You're like, this is embarrassing. You know, that's the most important skill, I feel. But every fight starts standing up. You know, every round starts standing up. You know, at the beginning of the round, you're standing up again, so that guy's got to take you down again. And in that transition, that's when you can catch someone.

1:06:31Joe Rogan:Yeah, I figured that.

1:06:32Shakur Stevenson:Look, there's elite fighters that aren't great wrestlers in MMA, like Alex Pereira, who's a two-division world champion. But he's just a destructive kickboxer. He's such a terrifying kickboxer.

1:06:44Joe Rogan:What is John Jones?

1:06:45Shakur Stevenson:John Jones is a wrestler.

1:06:46Joe Rogan:He's a wrestler?

1:06:47Shakur Stevenson:Well, he's an everything fighter. He can do everything. But he started out his career as a wrestler.

1:06:53Joe Rogan:I like him.

1:06:54Shakur Stevenson:Oh, he's the best ever.

1:06:56Joe Rogan:The best ever.

1:06:57Shakur Stevenson:He's the best ever because he's the smartest of all of them. I mean, that guy studies. That's why I like him.

1:07:03Joe Rogan:That's exactly why I like him. I've seen a video of him saying he watches everything from top to bottom. He can watch interviews. He's going to watch every single thing until he finds a weakness. Oh, yeah. That's why I like him.

1:07:16Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, he gets inside their head. He knows every tendency they do. He sets traps. He does everything. It's funny. Daniel Cormier, who I love to death, is a great friend of mine. when he fought John Jones, they were talking before the fight about tendencies. And Daniel's like, oh, I know what you think I'm going to do. You think I'm going to lean towards the right and you're going to kick me in the head. And John did exactly that in the fight. It was so crazy when he landed it. Like, I love both of those guys, but Daniel's a close friend. And so when he landed that head kick, I was like, no! You know, and I'm doing commentary, so I've got to, like, I've got to be balanced.

1:07:53Shakur Stevenson:and I do love both of those guys but I was like damn he did exactly what he said he was going to do you said it on the commentary? no I didn't say it on the commentary I don't want to call it out there but in the pre-fight they were talking shit to each other and one of the things like you have some tendencies Daniel and I'm going to exploit those tendencies and he was like oh you mean how I dip to the right and he did exactly that he caught him with that head kick I was like no but look that's the goat that's the guy man he's the guy he's the guy who always figures out a way to win

1:08:28Joe Rogan:he figures it out i heard it was somebody that he was supposed to fight though that that wanted

1:08:32Shakur Stevenson:to fight him it's like somebody really good oh tom aspinall yeah that's what yeah well see the thing with that is you know john is at the stage of his career where he's like i want to fight legends and i want to fight fights that are like big fights against big names that matter Tom Aspinall carried a high risk. He wasn't a very well-known fighter, even though he was the heavyweight champion. And he was really the heavyweight champion because John resigned the title. So he was the interim heavyweight champion, so they had an interim title. And John was the undisputed heavyweight champion, and they were supposed to fight.

1:09:08Shakur Stevenson:And they didn't make that happen. But now, after that fight, John is still trying to figure out if he's going to fight again. And if he's going to fight again, maybe he will fight because there's a big White House card. I heard about that. Yeah. And the White House card is a big one. And if that happens, it won't be Aspinall probably because Aspinall just went through eye surgery.

1:09:31Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:09:32Shakur Stevenson:Two different eye surgeries. He got poked in the eyes in his fight.

1:09:35Joe Rogan:Aren't you, like, involved in the UFC?

1:09:37Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. Yeah, I'm the commentator.

1:09:39Joe Rogan:Okay.

1:09:39Shakur Stevenson:I'm one of the commentators.

1:09:40Joe Rogan:So are you going to be doing, like, Zufa boxing too?

1:09:43Shakur Stevenson:No, no, no, no, no. Okay. No, that's Kellerman, Andre Ward. They do a great job over there. I'll definitely watch some of those fights, though. I think it's interesting. I think it's good to have more organizations that are competing to get the fighters because then the fighters will get more money. And I think MMA could use that, too. Unfortunately, the UFC is the big name in MMA. And MMA, unlike boxing, is all about the UFC. In boxing, it's all about who's the champ. Nobody gives a shit if it's Golden Boy or Bob Arum. Nobody gives a fuck who the promoter is. It's like, who is the fighter that's fighting?

1:10:23Shakur Stevenson:Is it Triple G versus Canelo? Who are the fighters? And unfortunately with MMA, it's not that. It's like if you are an excellent fighter, but you fight for the PFL, nobody knows. Nobody knows. There's a small audience of hardcore people that pay attention.

1:10:41Joe Rogan:I've seen somebody fight for the PFL. Clarissa huh yeah she fought for the PFO she's crazy

1:10:47Shakur Stevenson:that lady's wild she's the best she's wild she's the best she's the best

1:10:52Joe Rogan:there's nobody better

1:10:53Shakur Stevenson:I mean she's the heavyweight champ now it's crazy

1:10:55Joe Rogan:I just wish she was kind of smaller so like some of the smaller girls who really think that they can be her right can see like

1:11:05Shakur Stevenson:there's levels man yeah she's the GOAT she is the GOAT but she's she's not getting I mean as much as the love that she does get, she's not getting what she deserves. And it's just because there's just not a lot of competition.

1:11:18Joe Rogan:I don't understand it. I don't understand it. It's just two Olympic gold medals. I know. Undisputed several times in the sport. I just don't get it.

1:11:27Shakur Stevenson:Well, it's just women's boxing does not have the same level of respect and appreciation that men's boxing does, unfortunately.

1:11:34Joe Rogan:Well, Clarissa, I respect and appreciate you, and you are my GOAT.

1:11:39Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, I do as well.

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1:12:10Shakur Stevenson:I've had her on. She's awesome. I've had her on the podcast. I'm a big fan of her. And just the only one that had the courage to fight in MMA. I mean, that was crazy.

1:12:18Joe Rogan:She's tough. And she really did, like, not bad, but she was fighting against lesser competition.

1:12:24Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

1:12:25Joe Rogan:But she definitely was like, you could tell she was charming. She had to learn the grappling from a beginner's perspective. And she was breaking out of them, like, chocos.

1:12:36Shakur Stevenson:It's crazy. She knows how to win, you know, and sometimes that's enough. at that high a level, as elite a level as she is. But I think she's rightly just concentrating on boxing because I think she realizes that to be a world champion in MMA, she'd kind of have to abandon boxing.

1:12:53Joe Rogan:Yeah, for sure.

1:12:54Shakur Stevenson:And it would be a long journey. And she'd probably have to absorb a couple more losses.

1:13:00Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:13:01Shakur Stevenson:It ain't really worth it. Fuck these girls up in boxing.

1:13:05Joe Rogan:And I know she don't like losing.

1:13:07Shakur Stevenson:No, not at all. No. I get it. She's fun. She's a fun fighter to watch, though. If anybody can get people to pay attention to women's boxing, it's Claressa.

1:13:17Joe Rogan:Yes, because she's exciting. So exciting. That's why I don't understand. I don't get it. I don't get it. She deserves all her flowers. She's the true fan. I've never seen nobody, no female as good as her ever in my life.

1:13:32Shakur Stevenson:No, she's probably the greatest of all time. I think everybody would agree. You know, you've had a few great fighters over the years that have been female fighters, but she's the real standout.

1:13:42Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:13:42Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

1:13:43Joe Rogan:No question.

1:13:44Shakur Stevenson:It's just, unfortunately, that sport, I mean, there's not a lot of women out there that want to get punched in the face. If you had a room full of 1 ,000 women, there might be like one or two of them like, I'll try that. You know what I mean?

1:13:56Joe Rogan:No, I think it's some solid female fighters in the sport of boxing. Oh, there are. There are.

1:14:01Shakur Stevenson:But not in comparison to the numbers in men. men's boxing is just this you know a lot of kids grow up they want to be a boxer yeah for sure not a lot of women are like let me put the doll down and fuck some chick up that's that's an unusual mindset yeah it is you know it's just you know it is what it is it's um it's we're fortunate to be able to have her though like because like if there's anybody that's going to elevate the sport and bring in new fighters it's going to be someone who is really the only person in the sport that gets a tremendous amount of attention as a woman.

1:14:35Joe Rogan:Yeah. She done became a superstar. It's definitely interesting seeing her in them big arenas and having all the people walk out with her. It's amazing to see. I'm enjoying her process and I'm glad that I'm here to witness it.

1:14:53Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, me too. But other than her in the past, There haven't been enough women that have really, you know, Christy Martin, Layla Ali, Ann. There's like a few that— I like Ann Wolfe. Ann Wolfe was a beast.

1:15:09Joe Rogan:Yeah, I like her.

1:15:10Shakur Stevenson:She was one of the few that could flatline a chick with one shot, too. Yeah, I like her. She was the truth. Oh, yeah, man. She was the truth. And a great trainer, too. Yeah. When she was training Kirkland. Oh, yeah. Bro, they showed those videos of what she was putting him through. and when he fought Canelo, he didn't have her in his corner. I was just about to say, the fights that he lost,

1:15:29Joe Rogan:he kind of did not have her. Exactly. She was a fucking general, dude.

1:15:34Shakur Stevenson:She was a general. She put him through some brutal shit, but those were the fights that he was ultra prepared.

1:15:41Joe Rogan:Yeah. I think that's the, like, people don't realize, I feel like the best coaches in the sport of boxing are the people that kind of box.

1:15:50Shakur Stevenson:I bet, yeah.

1:15:51Joe Rogan:Like Robert Garcia. I think he's the truth as a coach. Sure. Bomek. Bomek, another fighter.

1:15:58Shakur Stevenson:Yep.

1:15:59Joe Rogan:Buddy McGirt. Buddy McGirt.

1:16:01Shakur Stevenson:Yep. Oh, he was a great fighter. Yeah.

1:16:02Joe Rogan:I just feel like the coaches that's been in there is kind of right. They know.

1:16:07Shakur Stevenson:Sure. Yeah. I think it helps a lot. I mean, there's a few guys, like Emanuel Stewart. Did he have an amateur background? I think so. Yeah.

1:16:16Joe Rogan:I'm not sure. I think so, though. I think so.

1:16:18Shakur Stevenson:Emanuel just had a brilliant mind for the sport.

1:16:21Joe Rogan:Yeah. I like the way he talked, too. I'll be watching some of his old videos. Yeah. He actually, it was something that I was doing for this fight. But I watched a video of him and he said, fighters overtrain, like they're overtrained. And when I seen it, he started explaining the reasons why you know that they're overtraining. And I seen it and I started cutting back on some of the things that I'm doing. I'm like, man, I don't want to overtrain and don't come out at my best.

1:16:51Shakur Stevenson:Amateur boxing career, he compiled a record of 94 wins, three losses in the amateur, including winning the 1963 National Golden Gloves Tournament in the Bantamweight Division. Wow, Bantamweight. That's crazy. I mean, he was small. That's crazy. But man, what he did with the cronk gym. He also had this gym cranked up. He made it like 98 degrees in there all the time. So everybody was training in the heat.

1:17:16Joe Rogan:Yep. He had a lot of boxers that was like top-level boxers in there, so they was pushing each other to get better. That's the cheat code right there.

1:17:25Shakur Stevenson:Oh, it is the cheat code, right? Iron sharpens iron. Yeah, you can't be the best boxer in your gym and have everybody else that's way below you and really get to that world-class level.

1:17:36Joe Rogan:No, impossible. It's impossible. You got to bring in guys that's on a high level. And honestly, for me, I keep like the young kids that's like up and coming. Like my little cousin, he's a great boxer and he's up and coming. And I just was in the gym with him yesterday and play sparring with him. And I keep a lot of good boxers around me, a lot of good boxers. There's another kid that made you a chance. He's like 19 years old. And like they are so skillful right now to where like when I'm around them, I'm still picking up things from them. And they probably don't even know it, but I'm definitely I got my notepad out everywhere I go.

1:18:18Shakur Stevenson:That's so important, right? Like mentally it's locked in here.

1:18:22Joe Rogan:Like I'm watching and studying.

1:18:24Shakur Stevenson:So everybody does everything different.

1:18:26Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:18:27Shakur Stevenson:You know, and you can just pick up little things here and there from what they do and start incorporating that.

1:18:32Joe Rogan:Yep. But people don't know, right before the fight with T.O., it was, I'm going to tell you a fight that I was watching.

1:18:38Shakur Stevenson:Okay.

1:18:39Joe Rogan:I'm going to give out a little secret. It was an eight-year-old kid, Tremaine Williams. He fought a guy named Dusty Harrison. And, like, they literally eight years old. But I liked the way Tremaine was fighting in that fight. He was using his jab. And he was the shorter fighter, but he was keeping his range and distance. and I was literally watching an eight-year-old kid fight right before the biggest fight of my life.

1:19:06Shakur Stevenson:That's amazing. And you were studying it. Wow. I swear. That's great. That's such a great mindset.

1:19:14Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:19:15Shakur Stevenson:I mean, that's how you really grow and learn. You can absorb something from everybody. Yeah, you can learn from anywhere. I was watching an interview with you once where you were talking about Terrence and you said you really learn more watching Terrence. Than being in there. Yeah.

1:19:30Joe Rogan:Terrence. I still feel that way. I feel like I learn more from seeing the things he's doing than being in the ring with him. Now, when we in the ring, it's always chess. We having chess matches, but when I'm watching, I can see some of the things he's doing, and I'm like, damn, this dude is just different. I knew before the Spence fight what was happening. I knew before the Canelo fight what was happening. Even when I was in the locker room, I'm in the locker room, I'm looking at him, call my Batman. I'm like, yo, put me some more money in. I know what time it is. No lie, though.

1:20:10Shakur Stevenson:But watching him in the gym, you got to see hard training sessions. You got to see when he looked great. You got to see bad days in the gym. You got to see how he recovered, how he came back.

1:20:23Joe Rogan:Yep. Like I said, he's one of the most competitive human beings I've ever met. So I do get to see all of it. Like, I get to see, go home with him and, okay, let me see how he's thinking about this. He'll go back and watch the sparring. And when he's watching it, oh, my God, he's adjusting. His brain is just adjusting to the sparring that he just watched. And then we'll go in the gym the next day. Now he's just doing things and everything's just on point. So do you do that? Do you watch your sparring sessions? I learned that from him.

1:20:56Shakur Stevenson:Yeah?

1:20:57Joe Rogan:I used to really never used to do that. But I had seen him, I forget what sparring session he was watching. I want to say on his iPad. And he was watching it. And then I seen him spar the next time. And I'm like, we look like a million bucks. Like the adjustments that he made was just insane. So I started doing the same thing. I'm like, if I have a day I don't like, I go home. Why did I have this day? Oh, my God. I keep doing that. Why do I keep doing it? Okay, I'm not doing that no more. Oh, I can hit him with this. I see that shot is open. Okay, now I'm going to hit him with this shot. And I think that helps me tremendously.

1:21:38Shakur Stevenson:That makes sense, like watching yourself as an observer the way you would watch an opponent.

1:21:43Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:21:43Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

1:21:44Joe Rogan:You got to see what you do good and like what you do bad. Yeah. And correct the things that you do bad.

1:21:51Shakur Stevenson:Instead of just remembering it from the training, watching it.

1:21:55Joe Rogan:Yeah, because I have like a bad habit sometimes when I'm like in a boxing gym. I like a fight. I don't have like I don't know why I would get in there. Sometimes I just turn into a fighter instead of realizing that I'm a boxer.

1:22:11Shakur Stevenson:Right.

1:22:12Joe Rogan:And then sometimes I get hit with shots and I'm like, oh, why am I getting hit with that shot? I'm like, I know my mental, my brain was already locked in on fighting instead of being locked in on boxing. Then you fight.

1:22:24Shakur Stevenson:Explain to people what is the difference between your mentality fighting and your mentality as a boxer. When I'm fighting, I'm emotional. And I don't want to be emotional, but I'm emotional and I'm fighting somebody.

1:22:41Joe Rogan:I'm trying to beat them up and I'm having a contest of who's the bigger and stronger guy. When I'm boxing, I'm just on top of my game, and it's like I'm able to hit you, and you not able to hit me, and that's what I do best. So I try to, like, stick with what I do best, and it's going to be a time to fight. So I have that in my arsenal for sure, but I don't like just doing it for no reason. Do you sometimes feel yourself get an emotional fight and have to pull it back? I never had it happen in a fight, but I done had it happen, like, in the sparring to where, like, all right, bro, you, your emotions is just taking control instead of, like, you just having fun and enjoying what you're doing.

1:23:30Joe Rogan:Right. So, yeah, I done had no moments in the gym for sure.

1:23:34Shakur Stevenson:So it's just like a composure thing. You're, all of a sudden, you're now not thinking as much. You're just trying to beat his ass.

1:23:42Joe Rogan:Take the emotions out of the situation and just be you. Yeah. Be present. That's really my main thing. I want to be present in what I'm doing and not moving off of, like, feelings.

1:23:54Shakur Stevenson:Right. Right. That probably fucks up a lot of fighters, don't it? Yeah, for sure. Because so many, especially men, they're so wrapped up in their feelings and their emotions when they're fighting.

1:24:05Joe Rogan:Yeah, but fighters don't study theyself. Like, I study myself. Like, I got to check in with myself and see, like, what am I doing wrong and what am I doing right? and I correct it.

1:24:15Shakur Stevenson:You think that's rare?

1:24:17Joe Rogan:Yeah, I think that's a rare attribute because fighters depend on their coaches. They depend on their coaches to do everything. I depend on my grandfather when I need him, but I know that I'm the fighter that's in there, so I'm not trying to just depend on them. I want to depend on myself also.

1:24:38Shakur Stevenson:So, like, do you try to get the other guys in the gym to follow your footsteps and watch footage you tell them, like help them out with that?

1:24:47Joe Rogan:Yeah, like the younger guys that I just mentioned, my little cousin and my little brother down there, Manny, I try to tell them to tune in with theyself and do the same similar things, watch yourself, see what you're doing wrong and try to correct it. But they younger, so as time go on, they will pick up on it. But I can't rush how I feel and my beliefs on them right now.

1:25:12Shakur Stevenson:Well, the best thing you could do is lead by example. Yeah. Always. That's my main thing. Yeah. If you do all the hard work and they'll see your success, when they have harder moments, they'll go, okay, what do I need to adjust? Yep. Let me follow Shakur.

1:25:27Joe Rogan:Yep. Well, let me see what the champ is doing.

1:25:30Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, that's the goal. That's my main goal because, like I said, I ain't going to be boxing forever.

1:25:35Joe Rogan:So once I'm done, I'm going to sit back and I'm going to help them out.

1:25:39Shakur Stevenson:Do you plan on coaching when you're done?

1:25:42Joe Rogan:I probably don't coach.

1:25:44Shakur Stevenson:Just help out in the gym?

1:25:46Joe Rogan:Just call me a secret weapon. Call me a secret weapon. I'll be that guy.

1:25:52Shakur Stevenson:Do you already think about what you're going to do when you retire? Because boxing is a sport where when you retire, you still have so much life ahead of you.

1:26:01Joe Rogan:Man, that's the truth. But I've been trying to, like, figure it out because I know it's going to be within boxing. but whatever I do, I'm going to do to the best of my ability. I'm going to want to, like, make tons of money for what I'm doing and if I'm a secret weapon, shit, I might make money just being a secret weapon, so we'll see.

1:26:26Shakur Stevenson:Right. Just someone bringing you into camp.

1:26:28Joe Rogan:I'm the right guy for it. Yeah? I got all the IQ. I watch too much boxing. Like, my life is, like, literally sit down and watch TV, watch, iPad, watch. Right. I just live boxing, so I think that'll be kind of easy. But I just see myself, like, taking over the world. In what way? I don't know. Like, I can't tell you. Like, I don't know. Like, my brain kind of, like, different. Like, I don't feel like I know for a fact I'm not going to be boxing for long. I don't plan on getting in the ring, doing the risks, and doing all that forever. So when I take over the world, it's going to be more so me just locking in and using the same focus that I got for boxing into whatever else that I'm doing and take over.

1:27:20Joe Rogan:Whatever I do, I want to be the best.

1:27:23Shakur Stevenson:So you don't even have a thought of what it's going to be? You'll figure that out when you get out of boxing.

1:27:28Joe Rogan:I journal a lot, so I'll be writing things down. Really? I can't tell you exactly what it's going to be, but I do know that I'm going to be somewhere making millions in a different atmosphere.

1:27:41Shakur Stevenson:Well, that's a great attitude to have. I'm glad you say you journal because this is one of the things that I wanted to bring up. I wish more boxers were interested in writing books because I think there's some of the things that you're talking about today and some of the things you're talking about in terms of like watching yourself, analyzing yourself, things you've learned, that would be very, very valuable if it's written down. But boxing knowledge is all word of mouth in the gym. It's all people who know things, tell other people, and they learn things, and you've got to go to these gyms and talk to these people.

1:28:17Shakur Stevenson:Or you get boxing knowledge from the commentators like Andre Ward will spit it out or Roy Jones will spit it out. Like that is where boxing knowledge gets sort of recorded.

1:28:30Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:28:30Shakur Stevenson:But I think it would be great if boxers could sit down and write just on boxing. Because you think about like what a huge sport boxing is. Huge sport. Like one of the pinnacles of sports, of combat sports. but yet there's not a lot of books written about technique and style and how they learn things and what they learned and why and what changed and i learned that in this fight in this fight this changed and i adjusted this about my training sessions and i heard emmanuel stewart talk about overtraining and so i realized maybe i was doing that it is one book what is it andre will book Oh, that's right.

1:29:15Joe Rogan:People got to read it, but I'm not fully done with it either. But as I read through some of it, he's giving out some free game. Yeah? It's free game in there that people could go listen to and read it and check it out because it's definitely like—

1:29:32Shakur Stevenson:Did he read it for the audio book?

1:29:35Joe Rogan:I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I know I got the actual book, so I just read it. But I didn't finish it. I won't say that I finished it, but—

1:29:42Shakur Stevenson:But he talks all about those things.

1:29:44Joe Rogan:It's a lot of things in there that's like free game. Like, okay, ooh, I like that. I might take that. If you're training, even if you're training a fighter, you're training a fighter. It's something that I saw that he said that I'm like, okay, I'm going to take that if I'm going to train fighters.

1:30:01Shakur Stevenson:Narrated by Andre Ward, perfect. Killing the image, a champion's journey, fighting, and forgiveness. He's the perfect guy to do that, too, because like I said, he's the guy that did it right.

1:30:10Joe Rogan:you know went out on top what's that he helped you understand yeah yeah well we need more books

1:30:17Shakur Stevenson:like that i'll read that book i haven't read it but i'll read it because i think um it's just there's so much knowledge out there in certain camps and it would benefit the entire sport if someone would document some of that stuff because some of that stuff is only told to the fighters that this guy's training and only told to the other fighters this guy trains with and it's not it's not out there and it could get lost you know like i'm sure there's some shit that floyd knows that only people around him know that have been told that we'll be lost when you want

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1:31:53Shakur Stevenson:You know what I'm saying?

1:31:53Joe Rogan:It's something he told me before this last fight that I took in, and I'm like, ooh. Really? What do you say? I'm using that. It's simple, though. It's very simple. I don't, like I said, it's hard for me to keep giving out the, maybe when I retire. Oh, come on, man.

1:32:10Shakur Stevenson:What'd he say?

1:32:11Joe Rogan:No, he just told me stretching. Stretching? Stretching. How powerful, like, stretching is. And I just gave up. It's simple, though. Like, people just know it, but do people do it?

1:32:27Shakur Stevenson:Dude, people don't even do it in MMA.

1:32:30Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:32:30Shakur Stevenson:You know how crazy that is? where you have to kick and people don't stretch. Like I was having a conversation with this dude who was a world champion, and I was explaining to him a jiu-jitsu position. I was like, this is why it's effective. He's like, oh, I can't get my legs up that high. I go, what are you talking about? You can. You just have to stretch. He goes, I don't really stretch. I go, that's crazy.

1:32:50Joe Rogan:Every, you know, there's a lot of fighters in sports that's like, I don't see it.

1:32:56Shakur Stevenson:That's crazy. I don't see it. Well, Floyd has always been a guy who did everything right. I mean, if you want to emulate a guy's career, Floyd has been hit hard maybe three times in his whole career.

1:33:10Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:33:10Shakur Stevenson:Maybe.

1:33:11Joe Rogan:Yeah, he's the truth. 100%. Every time I watch him, I've barely seen anybody that good. Like for me personally. Yes. Barely. It's only a handful of people that I can say, like, okay, they're that good. But, like, his brain just working at a different level than a lot of people.

1:33:31Shakur Stevenson:Also, just insanely disciplined, always in shape, always took care of himself, would go out to a club, drink water, and then run home in jeans. In jeans.

1:33:42Joe Rogan:That's tough. I heard he had on, like, boots. Boots. I never heard of that like that before.

1:33:50Shakur Stevenson:I can imagine. I mean, but that's the results, right? You get a guy who's just head and shoulders above everybody he fights. and just a master of pinpoint precision and movement and knowing where you are and hard to hit but stood right in front of you. That's the crazy thing about Floyd. There's a lot of guys that are hard to hit, but they were like fleet of foot and moving around and footwork and Lomachenko style, you know? Not Floyd. Right in front of you. Right in front of you, you can't hit him. Crazy.

1:34:20Joe Rogan:Kind of similar to me.

1:34:22Shakur Stevenson:Yes.

1:34:23Joe Rogan:But I think he's definitely, he's a Chico. So his mental was just too far ahead of everybody else's.

1:34:31Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. That's the main thing. Well, the one fight between guys who retired and came back that I'm still interested in seeing is him and Manny. And I know they're going to do that on Netflix. Floyd. I think that's still a high-level fight, though. That's what I love about it. Because I think Manny is still a high-level fighter. And Floyd, even in these exhibitions that he's been doing.

1:34:55Joe Rogan:He's been looking good, huh?

1:34:56Shakur Stevenson:He looks great, man. He looks great in sparring. You see him in sparring, like, good Lord, man. It doesn't look like he's lost a step.

1:35:04Joe Rogan:Yeah, honestly, I don't see Manny being able to beat Floyd Mayweather. Like, I don't see it. I think Manny looked solid his last fight with Barrios, but I just don't see Floyd losing. Like, I think there's some guys that he could come back today in the sport of boxing and fight. Yeah, I think so. Like, guys like Barrios?

1:35:26Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, right. I think he would. He would light Barrios up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I mean, it's like there's levels. I mean, no matter what he's lost being 46, they haven't gained that yet. I mean, they were never there in the first place. So if he was here and he's lost this much, they're still here.

1:35:45Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:35:45Shakur Stevenson:Even though he's not Floyd that fought Canelo or Floyd that fought Ricky Hatton, it's not the same Floyd. It's not that much different. Yeah, he's still so far ahead. Because he's not drinking. He's not fucking his body up. He's not doing anything stupid. He stays in shape. He eats right.

1:36:05Joe Rogan:Yep.

1:36:05Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

1:36:06Joe Rogan:I appreciate Floyd, too, because that's one of the guys that I never did no business with ever. And he still kind of helped me. So I appreciate him, man. I think he's a real dude. He got my love and respect.

1:36:22Shakur Stevenson:Well, I always say that if you wanted to have a style that you emulate where you want to have a great career, look at that guy. Like, really, very few times in his career ever got hurt.

1:36:34Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:36:34Shakur Stevenson:Very, very few. You can count him on one hand.

1:36:37Joe Rogan:Yep.

1:36:37Shakur Stevenson:You know, where he was in any kind of trouble at all.

1:36:40Joe Rogan:Yeah, that's my goal.

1:36:41Shakur Stevenson:And then in rematches, oh, my God. In rematches, he's always just like Maidana. Like, Maidana, the first fight was a rough fight. Yeah. Second fight, he looked like a master.

1:36:53Joe Rogan:I'm not going to lie, though. He's one of the guys that makes me want to, like, feel the experience of, like, getting hurt. Because, like, when he fought Shane Mosley, that moment of, like, he lost his whole balance, everything, almost went to his feet. But he stayed up.

1:37:13Shakur Stevenson:Yep.

1:37:14Joe Rogan:And then he fought back harder. I feel like that was an amazing moment of his career. And for me, I want to have the experience of that moment. I have never got hit, cracked like that yet in a pro. So I actually want to experience it. You really want that?

1:37:32Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. Really? That's crazy. Because I want to show that you can do it. Yeah, you've got to see.

1:37:37Joe Rogan:I've got more in me than just being a good boxer. I'm a good boxer, but I'm tough too.

1:37:43Shakur Stevenson:The Mosley fight was probably the fight where he got hurt the most.

1:37:46Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:37:47Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, and the most dangerous because it was like, I think it was kind of in the middle of the round, right? Yeah. Yeah. I want to feel that experience. Wow. And that was prime Mosley, too.

1:37:56Joe Rogan:I told Andre Ward that. He told me, he's like, man, why would you want to? Why would you want to? But I'm like, I don't understand why, but I definitely do. Who do you think out there could do that? I don't think nobody. I don't think they're like mentally on the level to even I think I'm just too far ahead

1:38:17Shakur Stevenson:but that's the problem of being too far ahead is that it's going to be hard for you to get fights what are they talking about right now? is there anybody that they're talking about right now for you?

1:38:28Joe Rogan:nah, I haven't really heard none from a business standpoint since my last fight

1:38:33Shakur Stevenson:the problem is the last fight was too good But, you know, like you would have probably got some offers before that fight, but after that fight everybody's like, hold on. I don't know if I want that to happen to me.

1:38:46Joe Rogan:Yeah, I have no clue who I'll be fighting next.

1:38:50Shakur Stevenson:Who do you have your sights on? Like if you could make the decision, who do you think is interesting right now?

1:38:56Joe Rogan:If I could make a decision, interest, what interests me maybe, and this is crazy to say, I may go back to 35 and get that ring belt.

1:39:08Shakur Stevenson:Really?

1:39:09Joe Rogan:I may. We'll see though.

1:39:10Shakur Stevenson:Yeah?

1:39:11Joe Rogan:I can't promise that I will, but I may.

1:39:13Shakur Stevenson:What makes that more interesting to you?

1:39:18Joe Rogan:I like the ring belt. Like I like the ring magazine belt. I don't know what it is about it. It's a classic belt. I always liked it. But for me to have a ring belt at 130, and then I had I got a ring belt right now at 140 but I never had a ring belt at 35 and it's like should I just go get that ring belt just to just to have it.

1:39:43Shakur Stevenson:So it's the belt not even the opponent

1:39:46Joe Rogan:I know the opponent that I would have to fight to get it. I'm hearing this Rayman Moritaya he's a good fighter he just beat Andy Cruz so nah this ain't the opponent it's more so just to have the ring belt.

1:39:59Shakur Stevenson:That's crazy. Like, you're at a position where you're not even thinking about opponents. You're thinking about belts you'd like to acquire. For sure. That's pretty cool, though. I mean, that's a beautiful place to be in. Yeah. That's beautiful. But what about opponents? Is there any opponents? Like, if you had, like, if no one could say no, and you were like, I'm going to orchestrate my career, who would you like to fight? If it was no opponents, I mean, and I was orchestrating, I probably... Because the fight that I would think that would generate the most amount of interest at 135 would be Tank.

1:40:40Shakur Stevenson:Now, I know Tank's got some legal issues now, and I don't know what his status is currently. But when in terms of big names, Tank is the big name at 35.

1:40:54Joe Rogan:Yeah, I would love for it to happen But the way that he went on social media And kind of bashed me in a way To where he made it seem like I need him And I just feel disrespected about it Because at the end of the day, I'm a grown man I make my own money I'm living a spectacular life I don't need nobody So if he feels as though I need him and if it's that kind of stuff, then it's like whatever. I'm not in need of that fight.

1:41:29Shakur Stevenson:The thing is, is like Tank had gotten a bunch of those high profile fights. He KO'd Ryan. He's had some big high profile fights. Look great. And so for him to say that, he's probably, you know, he's talking shit, obviously. But he's like looking at you as like you haven't had, before the Lopez fight, You haven't had that big breakout fight, but now you have now you have and it was More spectacular than you could me if you wanted to write out a perfect result on paper Against a world champion like to a female that would be the fight you would say yeah, so that's it If I had to think of like a big fight for you if I was the guy with the magic wand That would be the fight that I would set up.

1:42:12Joe Rogan:I would love to fight That would love for that fight to happen

1:42:16Shakur Stevenson:Ooh, that would be a big fight. Especially after you just beat Lopez. That would be a big fight.

1:42:21Joe Rogan:I would love for the fight to happen.

1:42:23Shakur Stevenson:That might be the only big fight that I could think of, other than you going up. But 47, like you said, that's a big jump, man.

1:42:31Joe Rogan:Yeah, I'll make it, though. I'll make it sooner. I mean, later than sooner.

1:42:37Shakur Stevenson:Do you think if you did that you would want to prepare and put mass on, or would you just stay at the weight you are and just get accustomed to fighting bigger guys?

1:42:48Joe Rogan:If I was to go to 47, I would want to, like, prepare. Like, I would want to do it slowly. I wouldn't want to just jump to 147. You would want to put on weight, you think? Yeah, some type of weight, yep.

1:43:04Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

1:43:05Joe Rogan:Because I'm little, like, I can't just jump a ring at the size that I am at 147 pounds when I know guys is going to be a lot bigger.

1:43:13Shakur Stevenson:Right. Especially when you're talking about Ryan being 170 when he gets in the ring. He might even be bigger than that. Exactly. He was big and ripped in his last fight. He looked fucking great.

1:43:22Joe Rogan:Yeah, for sure.

1:43:23Shakur Stevenson:You know. But it's like... That's one of those things too is if you do go up, going down gets real hard. Going back... Like if you go up... They always say that.

1:43:37Joe Rogan:I don't understand the reason with that.

1:43:40Shakur Stevenson:Because your body gets accustomed to being bigger.

1:43:42Joe Rogan:For real?

1:43:42Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. So if you put on mass, right? So if you put on muscle and you go up to like 147, and so you're walking around at 155, 160, something like that, you drop down to 47, you've got more shoulder muscle, chest muscle, back muscle, leg muscle. If you stay at that weight and then you got to cut down to 35, you're going to feel like shit. And the example that I always use is Roy. So when Roy Jones went up and fought John Ruiz, won the heavyweight title, then he went back down to light heavyweight, he never looked the same. Because he was 200 pounds solid at a heavyweight. Ripped, like muscular 200 pounds.

1:44:23Shakur Stevenson:For him to lose 25 pounds of weight and go back down to light heavyweight, that is fucking hard.

1:44:30Joe Rogan:Yeah, I get that. I get that. I feel like when Roy did that, Roy was like, I think he must have been trying to set up a big heavyweight fight maybe, or was he just trying to just win a title?

1:44:45Shakur Stevenson:I mean, I think he was just trying to be like the only guy to go from middleweight to win the heavyweight title, which he did.

1:44:50Joe Rogan:Yeah, I don't understand why he did that, because you're right. When he fought Tarver, it was like, I don't know what was happening. I didn't really think Tarver was as good as Rory, but Tarver beat Rory.

1:45:04Shakur Stevenson:Tarver's a bad motherfucker, though. Tarver's a very good fighter. To beat Roy? I think Tarver in that fight, first of all, they had fought before, right? They had a real close decision loss, Tarver lost. And then Tarver got in his head at the beginning of the fight. So you got any excuses tonight, Roy? That was crazy. That was crazy. That was crazy. To hear that right when you're about to fight. Any questions for the champion? Got any excuses tonight, Roy?

1:45:33Joe Rogan:Man, oh my God. Right, man, I don't know.

1:45:37Shakur Stevenson:That was one of the wildest things anybody's ever said.

1:45:40Joe Rogan:That would have turned me up, though. Like, if he would have said that to me, like, I'm trying to picture somebody saying that to me right before we fight. Now I'm going to want to, I already want to beat you back. Right. Now I'm going to want to beat you even better. Or, like, then after the fight, I'm going to get on the mic and, what did you say? Did you say something?

1:45:57Shakur Stevenson:But when he dropped Roy and knocked him out, I was like, oh my God, I can't believe it. Yeah. But I was worried about him because I know what that does to people when they drop weight. And dropping down from 200 pounds to 175 will really wear your body out.

1:46:14Joe Rogan:Yeah, so you think it was more so the weight than the skills of Tarver?

1:46:18Shakur Stevenson:I would never say that because I think Tarver has elite skills. Elite?

1:46:23Joe Rogan:I think he's elite.

1:46:24Shakur Stevenson:Oh, come on. I think Tarver's an elite fighter.

1:46:27Joe Rogan:Elite? You don't think he's elite? No. Without due respect to Tarver.

1:46:31Shakur Stevenson:Great performances and not as good performances, but I think in the performance against Roy, he looked elite.

1:46:38Joe Rogan:Yeah, he looked good that night.

1:46:39Shakur Stevenson:Because he rose to the occasion.

1:46:41Joe Rogan:I just don't know about elite. Elite low. I get it. For me personally, I'm not the biggest Tyra fan.

1:46:49Shakur Stevenson:Okay. Well, I defer to your championship knowledge. But, I mean, in that fight, you can't say that he didn't look spectacular in that fight against Roy.

1:46:57Joe Rogan:He did. He looked on point. He looked like he was the better fighter at that moment.

1:47:02Shakur Stevenson:Yeah. Awkward. Southpaw.

1:47:04Joe Rogan:When I watched the first fight, I thought Roy was a way better fighter than him. I thought Roy just stood on the ropes for way too long. I don't know why he did that.

1:47:14Shakur Stevenson:Was the first fight before or after he fought Ruiz?

1:47:21Joe Rogan:It was after.

1:47:23Shakur Stevenson:Was it after the first fight they had, too? Yeah. That probably wore his ass out, too. I just think once you go all the way up like that, you should probably stay there. And I don't know how we went up. I don't want to, you know, it's hard for a guy in his 30s to put on that kind of muscle. Yeah. And generally you have some help. Yeah. So generally some Mexican supplements involved. Oh, my God. And so the problem is.

1:47:49Joe Rogan:He took Osterix.

1:47:51Shakur Stevenson:once you have taken that stuff and then you stop taking it because you want to go back to your normal weight your whole endocrine system gets fucked up this is the problem with juicers guys who take juice the thing that happens man don't tell me this oh no i'm not saying this about roy okay okay okay we just talk in general are we good fighters that gain weight and and

1:48:16Joe Rogan:have lean muscle and put on that kind of mass yeah generally they're doing it with some kind of

1:48:23Shakur Stevenson:supplement some kind of either steroids or something that juices up your endocrine system

1:48:29Joe Rogan:whether it is peptides yes damn i never heard of this you didn't know no what come on man you

1:48:36Shakur Stevenson:know for real no i didn't know oh come on there's a lot of fighters that took stuff oh i know no i

1:48:41Joe Rogan:I know that.

1:48:41Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

1:48:41Joe Rogan:I know that people is cheating.

1:48:44Shakur Stevenson:Oh, well, in the older days, before they were testing? Yeah. Oh, come on, man. Like, in the 90s, who knows how many guys were on steroids?

1:48:52Joe Rogan:Damn, that take away the credit of them guys, because I feel like when I watched them guys, they was the truth. Now, you tell me. They are the truth.

1:49:00Shakur Stevenson:But I don't think, I think, well, let me use what I know for an example. An MMA. MMA is a better example. Yeah. Because in MMA fucking for sure I could tell you 100 % people were juicing. 100%. Because I knew guys who were juicing. They would tell me what they were on and everybody was juicing. So then they started implementing. So then the UFC starts getting sanctioned by athletic commissions and they test day of the fight. The day of the fight test is an intelligence test. It's not a steroids test. It's like, were you intelligent enough to cycle off right before the fight with the right kind of steroid so that on the weigh-in day when you get tested, you don't test positive?

1:49:45Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:49:46Shakur Stevenson:That's all it is. And a lot of these camps, like big MMA camps, they have scientists working in the camps. That's helping them cheat. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Now, not so much anymore. This is scary. Because then the UFC, it is scary. But the thing is, everybody was doing it. And then on top of that, you had an organization like Pride. And I don't know if you're aware of Pride, but Pride was the big organization in Japan. I mean, they were selling out 90 ,000 seat arenas in Japan for these promotions. They were fucking huge. And everyone was juiced to the tits. I don't know if everybody was, but a lot.

1:50:26Shakur Stevenson:I don't think Rampage was. Rampage told me he never took steroids, and I believe him. But a lot of guys were juiced up. And I know for a fact they were juiced up because they told me. They told me. And they also tell me, like, Ensign Inouye, who fought for Pride, told me that on his contract. Inouye? Yeah, Ensign Inouye. Oh. Yeah, like, not related. Okay. But same last name. Ensign, he was a great fighter, a pioneer at MMA. Ensign told me that on his Pride contract, it said in all capital letters, we do not test for steroids. Like, they encourage—I had a friend of mine in Japan. They encouraged him to take steroids.

1:51:05Joe Rogan:See, this scared me because I got to get in a boxing ring, and I know that people be cheating. Some people cheat. I know. It's be like low-level fighters that you'll go there, and you'll be like, why do this guy punch way harder than a lot of people?

1:51:22Shakur Stevenson:Like, I don't understand it, and it's like, I don't— Well, there's a few fighters in MMA that when steroids started being tested for, their body shrunk and then their power went away. There was guys that were knocking everybody out and also they couldn't knock anybody out. It's crazy. There's so many stories in MMA where you see fighters' physiques just deflate. They're a balloon. They got air let out of it.

1:51:48Joe Rogan:I feel like I've seen it in boxing though. I see guys, they kind of get caught with steroids and then they have a fight after that and it's like...

1:51:56Shakur Stevenson:They look like shit.

1:51:57Joe Rogan:Where did the power go? You lost all of your power?

1:52:00Shakur Stevenson:but that's fact that's fact I get it that does happen and then there's also ways that we can't figure out what they're doing yet I mean this has happened all throughout sports right this was the whole thing with Barry Bonds and the Balco scandal in baseball they had developed a steroid called the clear and what the clear was was a steroid that was undetectable they hadn't figured but eventually they got caught yeah and so who knows what kind of shit it's not like they stopped trying to innovate yeah and come up with ways to get an advantage there's definitely people doing it now but the way the ufc works now the first they brought in usada now they have a company called drug free sport that does the same thing and they just show up and test you you don't get a notification it's going to happen next tuesday so you can take a bunch of shit that clears it out of your system so they just show up knock on your door hey it's time for a test and then you gotta give them.

1:52:55Shakur Stevenson:That's what Vata do. That's how they should do it.

1:52:56Joe Rogan:Vata do the same thing.

1:52:57Shakur Stevenson:They just show up and urine, blood, and just anytime.

1:53:03Joe Rogan:Actually, my last camp, they tested me like four or five times. Yeah. God damn.

1:53:09Shakur Stevenson:Well, that's the only way to know. You gotta show up randomly and test guys. That's the only way to know.

1:53:15Joe Rogan:I'm cool with it, though, because I ain't never, ever really did anything when it come to cheating, so I'm...

1:53:21Shakur Stevenson:But if you go, and this is, again, not casting any disparaging remarks about Roy, who's one of the greatest of all time. But if you went back to the Ruiz fight, do you think they were testing him? I fucking doubt it. I fucking doubt it. There was no Vata testing back then.

1:53:34Joe Rogan:But didn't you say that it was in boxing?

1:53:37Shakur Stevenson:No. Oh? I don't think so. No. No.

1:53:40Joe Rogan:I could have sworn they was in boxing.

1:53:42Shakur Stevenson:Okay, let's find out. Was the Roy Jones, John Ruiz Jr. fight, did they utilize Vata testing? I don't think they did. USADA. USADA? USADA. Okay, USADA. I don't think they did. I don't think they did. Look, that was always a thing about Manny. People always said that about Manny.

1:54:02Joe Rogan:I heard that, too. Right? Only reason why I was believable, though, because I never— You went up eight weight classes. I never seen that in my life. And kept the knockout power. I never seen that in my life.

1:54:13Shakur Stevenson:Right.

1:54:14Joe Rogan:I never in the history of the sport, you go from one, what, 109 or—

1:54:19Shakur Stevenson:Whatever he started at.

1:54:20Joe Rogan:So 154 and you're just knocking guys out? I know.

1:54:24Shakur Stevenson:That's crazy. And his physique, you know? I mean, he looks fantastic at every step of the way. And he also had that dude, what did it say, was not held under a modern UFC-style USADA program. There's no record of being part of any independent year-round USADA VADA scheme like we see today.

1:54:45Joe Rogan:So they just depended on the athletic commission. Yeah, but again, the athletic commission.

1:54:50Shakur Stevenson:It's his fight day. It's an intelligence test. Yeah. I mean, I will show you, show him Alistair Overeem when he fought Brock Lesnar, like, at the weigh-in. Now, Alistair Overeem is the greatest example in MMA of a guy who, when he was on the juice, he was unstoppable. Unstoppable. They called him Uber-eam when he was unstoppable because he looked like a comic book superhero. He was so jacked and then when they started doing USADA testing he looked completely different I mean completely different he did he got softer He still looked good, but he didn't look like uberim when he there's a an image of him Flexing on the scale like look at him right there.

1:55:35Shakur Stevenson:Come on son. I mean come on Look at that girl look at ariani's face. She's looking at his back. She's like what the fuck? and that was I mean come on man He was a fucking monster He was knocking guys out He was destroying everybody He was destroying everybody When he was juiced up And he started his career as a light heavyweight So he started his career as a 205 pound guy Who was thin and skinny

1:56:03Joe Rogan:That is light heavyweight?

1:56:04Shakur Stevenson:Yeah that's light heavyweight The UFC's weight classes are all fucked up I know it's stupid They have the same names but different weight classes So like welterweight is 170 in the UFC Yeah look at him So that's the difference between how he was when he was juicing versus how he was. Is he the difference?

1:56:20Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:56:21Shakur Stevenson:It's crazy, right? Isn't it crazy? It's crazy. Damn. So the guy on the right was just he had to move more. He was still very skillful. He was a very skillful kickboxer, very skillful MMA fighter. But, I mean, when that guy was fully jacked up and juiced, man, he was almost unstoppable. See, that's why I don't like that.

1:56:45Joe Rogan:That's my thing. I do not want to get in the ring with somebody that's cheating. Right. But I'm so good to where it's like even if you are cheating, you ain't going to hit me. You won't be punching on me.

1:57:01Shakur Stevenson:But imagine if you're fighting a guy that's at your level, but he's cheating. Yeah. That's the problem. Yeah. That's the problem. So right now there's not really anybody in your division that's at that level that's, like, really compelling. I mean, other than at 135 tank. But imagine if there's someone that's at your level and you're pretty sure they're cheating. That's got to fuck with your head. Honestly, I feel like there's some competitive guys at these weight classes.

1:57:27Joe Rogan:They just not know. Right. But there's some names that's like, okay, like even Lamont Roach. Lamont.

1:57:33Shakur Stevenson:Lamont Roach is very good. That fight with Gervonta was crazy because that was a knockdown. That's a fucking knockdown.

1:57:41Joe Rogan:He won. He won for sure.

1:57:42Shakur Stevenson:The fact that he took a knee and the referee didn't call it a knockdown, that's crazy.

1:57:48Joe Rogan:Yeah, he won. But to say, like, I'm just saying it is guys out there for me.

1:57:53Shakur Stevenson:Lamont is a great example. It would be big fights and competitive fights.

1:57:57Joe Rogan:I done sparred Lamont, so I know Lamont is a competitor.

1:57:59Shakur Stevenson:He's legit.

1:58:00Joe Rogan:Yeah.

1:58:00Shakur Stevenson:I mean, a lot of people did not know about him before that fight, But after that fight, I mean, look, that sucks, man, because that goes down on his record as a loss. And that's crazy. Was it a draw? Draw. That's right. It was a draw. And he won the fight. He clearly won. He won the fight. Yeah. I thought he won the fight anyway. Yeah, I did, too. But the knockdown, like, you can't say I got shit in my hair and it got in my eyes and that's why I went down. That's crazy. That was very amateurish. It was weird.

1:58:28Joe Rogan:It was amateurish. I didn't.

1:58:30Shakur Stevenson:It was weird.

1:58:31Joe Rogan:I never saw nothing like that.

1:58:33Shakur Stevenson:Well, it's like Gervonta just looked like his head wasn't totally there in that fight.

1:58:38Joe Rogan:Yeah, maybe.

1:58:40Shakur Stevenson:So do you require Vata testing for all your fights? Every fight. And do you have that ability to do that? Yes. So in negotiations, you make sure that everybody's getting tested.

1:58:49Joe Rogan:I don't play when they come down to the— Good for you. I do not play that.

1:58:52Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, good for you, man. Good for you. I mean, we're very fortunate that we have these testing bodies like that now available. Yeah. Because, again, like if they had who knows what a lot of fighters' legacies would be if they were testing them at every step along the way. Yeah. They'd get caught. They'd get caught. Yeah. Yeah. So with MMA, it was the Wild West for a long time. For a long time. It was the wild, wild west. Everybody was doing all kinds of shit.

1:59:20Joe Rogan:I wouldn't be able to do that. Like I would not be able to get in the ring, lose to somebody, and then know they cheated me.

1:59:27Shakur Stevenson:Right.

1:59:27Joe Rogan:Because I don't know how I would react to that. That would be one of the moments I may crash out, and I don't do crash out things. So I might crash out about, like, ain't no way you just cheated me, bro.

1:59:41Shakur Stevenson:Right. Ain't no way you just cheated me, bro. Well, the thing is that with combat sports versus every other sport is your goal is to hurt your opponent. And if there's a thing you're doing that's cheating that helps you hurt your opponent, that is a different kind of cheating. it's not like cheating in baseball like who gives a fuck if you hit another home run I think they should all cheat in baseball I think they should all get on steroids make it more exciting because the only thing that's exciting about baseball is home runs that's the number one thing if you got a way that you guys can hit more home runs fucking give it to them what are you stupid it's like harmless

2:00:18Joe Rogan:it's not really going to hurt nobody

2:00:20Shakur Stevenson:so I get it

2:00:22Joe Rogan:but boxing is like it's life or death Yeah. Boxing is real life or death. That's why I don't know how, like, I would react. Don't you—anybody watching this, please don't cheat me. I am not the guy to be cheated, so just understand that.

2:00:37Shakur Stevenson:Well, I mean, whenever people are looking for shortcuts and people want to win, there's always going to be someone that's willing to do something that they're not supposed to be doing.

2:00:46Joe Rogan:That ain't it, though. Like, this, like you said, is life or death. Life or death. So you could cheat and hit somebody with the wrong shot and then they dead. What's the guy that killed somebody? Sabriel Matias. Right. He killed the dude. And now he just got popped for cheating. So it's like. Oh, he did? Yeah. I didn't know that. What did he get popped for? I don't even know.

2:01:09Shakur Stevenson:He lost recently, right? He lost to that.

2:01:11Joe Rogan:Yeah, right before the loss, they had popped him for cheating, I want to say. Oh. Dalton Smith.

2:01:16Shakur Stevenson:so they he lost so he he got popped and then he lost the next fight yeah they let him fight wow yeah but it's like i wonder if he's the same guy after he got popped that's what i don't know either but because he was killing everybody i mean yeah he actually only killed one guy but

2:01:36Joe Rogan:he actually killed somebody but if i'm the family of somebody that he killed and now right he comes out as cheating, I would be like, hold up now, bro.

2:01:44Shakur Stevenson:Can you see what Matias got popped for? That's crazy. He was... Who was the dude who just beat him? Dude just stopped him. Yes. That was a crazy fight. That was crazy. They were going to war. They went to war. I mean, that was not an easy fight for him. And Matias is a dangerous dude, man.

2:02:05Joe Rogan:Yeah, that was a great performance by Darcy Smith, though. Yeah. People don't know back in the day, when I was in the Junior Worlds, Me and whom went to the worst together.

2:02:13Shakur Stevenson:So, Osterine. Damn. Everybody's on Osterine. Damn. What is it about? I don't even know much about Osterine. What does Osterine do, Jamie? Let's find out what it does.

2:02:25Shakur Stevenson:Osterine, selective androgen receptor modulator designed to treat muscle wasting conditions and osteoporosis by promoting muscle growth and bone density without the severe side effects of anabolic steroids. It's popular amongst bodybuilders for enhancing muscle mass and fat loss. It's not approved for human consumption by the FDA, banned by WADA, and linked to side effects like liver toxicity, testosterone suppression, and cardiovascular risks. So it helps you keep muscle and bone density. Yeah. Well, it makes sense that that would be a good supplement for boxers. What are you showing me here?

2:03:07Before or after?

2:03:09Shakur Stevenson:Look at that guy. The one you got your link on? Jesus. He looks like he's faking it in the third picture.

2:03:19Shakur Stevenson:But, I mean, you're always going to have certain people that are going to cheat. I hate it. Are there any, like, world title fights that take place that don't have Vata testing?

2:03:31Joe Rogan:Yeah, I think it is. I think people fight without it, but I don't play that.

2:03:37Shakur Stevenson:Yeah.

2:03:38Joe Rogan:I don't play that. I be thinking, man, I'd have sparred the dude in the gym that was not good one time. He's not good at all. But I'm sparring him. I'm like, man, this dude punch harder than everybody I've ever been in the ring with. And I wonder, dude, did that dude, do he be cheating?

2:03:56Shakur Stevenson:Well, some dudes just have natural God-given power, too.

2:03:59Joe Rogan:But when you're like fat, not kind of like you're out of shape, then you just punch super hard and it's slow, but it's like boom, boom. I be thinking people be cheating.

2:04:11Shakur Stevenson:They might be, but they might just have the gift.

2:04:14Joe Rogan:Yeah, that's true.

2:04:14Shakur Stevenson:The thing about boxing is punching power, you can enhance your punching power, but that crazy punching power, that's a gift. You're born with it. Yeah, you're born with it. Like Ernie Shaver's type punching power or Deontay. Wilder. Wilder. The greatest example ever. Oh, my God. One shot with Teddy Atlas is the best example. He called it the eraser. All the mistakes you made, it doesn't matter.

2:04:39Joe Rogan:Yeah, because I sit there and watch Wilder, and I'm like, dog, it's some fights that I see him not punch at all until the shot is there.

2:04:47Shakur Stevenson:Right.

2:04:48Joe Rogan:And when the shot is there, he got you, it's over.

2:04:51Shakur Stevenson:It's crazy how hard he hits. It's over. I mean, he might be the greatest one-punch knockout artist in the history of the heavyweight division. I think he is.

2:04:58Joe Rogan:I think it's like no question. Like he's probably the hardest puncher that ever walks.

2:05:03Shakur Stevenson:He's up there. I mean, Ernie Shavers back in the day.

2:05:07Joe Rogan:Punch harder than Wilder?

2:05:08Shakur Stevenson:Wow, they all said Ernie Shavers was the, like even Ali said, nobody hit harder than Ernie Shavers. Wilder. I know, I know. And the thing about Wilder too is he's not big. He only weighed 209 when he fought Tyson Fury the first time.

2:05:22Joe Rogan:That right hand he got. Crazy. I don't think nobody could take it. It's crazy. I don't think nobody could take it. I'm not going to lie. I saw a fairy take it, but his size helped him. You know what he's like?

2:05:31Shakur Stevenson:He's like a giant Tommy Hearns.

2:05:33Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:05:34Shakur Stevenson:That's what it's like. Yeah. Long leverage, just torque, the width of the shoulders, the snap of the punch, just blap.

2:05:42Joe Rogan:I wish he retired, though. I feel like he, what else is there to do? You done did a lot in the sport. You done made a lot of money. I just wish certain guys just like, okay.

2:05:53Shakur Stevenson:I know. I know.

2:05:55Joe Rogan:What am I doing this for now?

2:05:56Shakur Stevenson:Well, he's going to fight Derek Chisora, which is interesting because they're both the same age. They both have 50 fights. They're both kind of the same, but, you know.

2:06:06Joe Rogan:I like Derek Chisora. He's a cool dude, too.

2:06:09Shakur Stevenson:He seems cool. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a great time for boxing. There's a lot of talent, a lot of very, very compelling matchups. Are they going to do a B-Vol, a better B-Ev rebatch? Are they going to do a trilogy?

2:06:22Joe Rogan:I want to see B-Vol versus Benavidez.

2:06:24Shakur Stevenson:Ooh. That's the fight. Well, the fight was Benavidez versus Canelo. That never could get made for some reason.

2:06:32Joe Rogan:I mean, that dude is just too big for Canelo, though. I see both sides. I love Benavidez, and I'm a fan of him. So I see the side of, like, fight me, bro. You the guy, I'm the guy. We number one, number one. Let's fight. But then I see Canelo's side. He's like, man, this dude is 200 pounds on the regular. and I'm nowhere near that weight so it's like why would I fight this guy? I don't think it's fair. That's how he feel

2:07:04Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, I understand it but Canelo went up and fought Bival

2:07:08Joe Rogan:But he knew he didn't think Bival was going to beat him You don't think so? Nah He thought he was going to beat Bival

2:07:18Shakur Stevenson:After Bival beat him, you think that killed the chances? Yes, he knew

2:07:22Joe Rogan:it was time. I cannot fight These guys that are super big.

2:07:26Shakur Stevenson:I love watching Benavidez fight. Yeah, he's a truth. He's a mauler. He's a killer. He is a fucking killer.

2:07:31Joe Rogan:He did something that helped my hands. He told me to put on the gloves that I be wearing on fight night. They helped my hands, so I appreciate him too.

2:07:38Shakur Stevenson:Do you do anything to strengthen your hands? Yeah. Do you do exercises?

2:07:43Joe Rogan:Yeah, I can't tell everybody. You can't?

2:07:46Shakur Stevenson:All right, tell me later.

2:07:47Joe Rogan:Yeah, I'll tell you later.

2:07:49Shakur Stevenson:There's a bunch of different things people do, like buckets of rice is a big one.

2:07:54Joe Rogan:Oh, yeah, for sure. I do that, too.

2:07:55Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, moving your hands around in buckets. What is it? Benavidez targets to beat you, Bival. Oh, there we go. That's the fight. That's the fight.

2:08:03Joe Rogan:That's the best versus the best. I think that's one of the best fights to make in the sport of boxing.

2:08:07Shakur Stevenson:Well, he's fighting Ramirez at cruiserweight, right? Yeah. And then he's going to drop back down to light heavyweight and fight Bival. I like that. Yeah. I want to make the biggest and the best fights happening. Fuck yeah.

2:08:19Joe Rogan:Yeah, that's one of the best fights in the sport.

2:08:21Shakur Stevenson:Arthur better be of his, like, 40 now. Yeah, he's the truth though too. Oh, he's the truth. He was a crusher forever.

2:08:28Joe Rogan:He punched too hard.

2:08:30Shakur Stevenson:Oh my God. He another one. He just bangs dudes out. He's got a crazy style. Yeah. I mean, it's funny when people sparred him, they have these stories.

2:08:41Joe Rogan:Yeah.

2:08:41Shakur Stevenson:Like he hits you and you're like, what just happened? Yeah.

2:08:44Joe Rogan:I could see it though. When I watched him fight Beauvoir, I'm front row.

2:08:48Shakur Stevenson:Mm-hmm.

2:08:48Joe Rogan:And like Beauvoir like to catch shots on his glove and like, I could see how hard he was punching his glove. Like, damn. I don't know how before he's taken that.

2:08:59Shakur Stevenson:I know, and he was 39 back then. That's what's crazy. It's like we missed his prime, unfortunately.

2:09:07Joe Rogan:Yeah, we seen one fight where he fought the overseas guy, Gavard something, and he beat him up. Oh, my God. He beat him up.

2:09:18Shakur Stevenson:Well, he was at one point in time, wasn't he like 39-0 with 39 knockouts? Yes. Which is just nuts. Yeah. At that level, that is just nuts. Punching too hard. It's just nuts that he stopped everybody.

2:09:30Joe Rogan:And it looks natural, too. It don't look like he's on, like, steroids. No, it looks natural. It looks very natural. But didn't he get in trouble, caught with something?

2:09:38Shakur Stevenson:He got caught with something? Yeah. Put that better be of.

2:09:43Joe Rogan:Not better be of, man. I feel like I might be wrong, but I feel like maybe there was a tainted supplement. Man, come on. Not better be.

2:09:57Shakur Stevenson:I think so. I might be wrong.

2:10:00Joe Rogan:Yeah. If I'm wrong, I apologize. You got to be wrong for better be.

2:10:03Shakur Stevenson:This was 2024. Atypical. Yeah, this is what it was. Atypical drug test result. Adverse findings may have threatened. Now, what does that mean? What does it say? Conor McGregor screaming and yelling. What does it say? What did he get caught with? Atypical finding is not a violation. Requires more testing. Better be if underwent those examinations at Vada request. Vada reported negative results from the follow-up test. So what was the positive test? Hmm. What does that mean?

2:10:38Joe Rogan:Yeah, what do that mean?

2:10:39Shakur Stevenson:Oh, here it goes. He received atypical findings for human growth hormone. And 5D androstanadiol. Both occur naturally in the body. When an atypical finding is received, further testing is required to determine if an athlete naturally produces the substance in his or her body at a greater level than the average or elevated levels, which were signs of anti-doping. Interesting. Okay, so it could just be that he just has naturally high levels of HGH and this 5D androstanadiol. So that might be what it is. Or could be some sneaky shit. You know, I mean, did you ever see the documentary Icarus? this is a great documentary about uh the the drug scandal in the olympics in russia and so this was what was this 2016 which was it jamie was that the olympics i was at yeah i was there what uh and they banned the whole russian team exactly i thought that was 2020 though um they banned the russian team the follow-up olympics i believe because of the 2016 So this guy Brian Fogle did this documentary.

2:12:01Shakur Stevenson:It's a crazy documentary and the documentary was not supposed to be 2014 Winter Olympics, so what happened was Brian Fogle was doing a documentary so he he was a he's a cyclist and a documentary guy and so he said I want to do a Cycling event a race completely natural and then I want to do it on steroids And I want to document it all and then you know make this documentary on what is the difference and just show because Cycling is a very dirty sport. Yeah, like tour de France those guys They put engines in their fucking bike to make it like easier to pedal. They do a lot of crazy shit blood doping So he does this naturally and then he gets this guy Was his name again?

2:12:50Shakur Stevenson:gregory rachinko who was rachinkov who was the head of the russian anti-doping federation but it was really a doping federation yeah so what they were doing at the time was so he starts working with this guy this guy's telling him what steroids to take and how to get better at the same time the russians get caught like while he's filming all this and that guy has to leave the country and that guy spills the beans and he tells them exactly what they did and what they did was they took the clean urine they made a hole in the wall so the place where they stored all the urine they made a hole in the wall where they could swap out the russian urine and swap it in for for good urine and they found these micro abrasions on these supposedly unopenable jars and so when they looked at it with a microscope they said these they figured out a way to open these jars.

2:13:45Shakur Stevenson:So they would pass it through the hole in the wall, open the jar, empty it out, put in clean piss and give it back to them. So essentially the entire team was doped up.

2:13:57Joe Rogan:Yeah. So basically that's why they say in the Olympics, they wasn't sure if Russia was going to be able to compete, right?

2:14:03Shakur Stevenson:Exactly. And so in Brazil, the follow up Olympics, the next Olympics, the entire team couldn't compete.

2:14:10Joe Rogan:The cycling team?

2:14:11Shakur Stevenson:No, the entire Russian team. So the cycling thing was just this guy that was doing this documentary, and he was using the head of the Russian anti-doping agency to help him do it, like openly. So it was just for a documentary. It wasn't like trying to win a race and cheat. He was like saying, let's see what you would give me and how much better my performance would be. So in the middle of doing all this, this scandal gets exposed, and this guy who he's using is at the head of the scandal, And then this guy tells him everything. And it's nuts.

2:14:44Joe Rogan:Russia did compete in the Olympics, though.

2:14:45Shakur Stevenson:They did compete in 2016.

2:14:48Joe Rogan:They must have competed in 2020 then.

2:14:51Shakur Stevenson:Well, I think they allowed individual athletes to compete, whatever the subsequent Olympics was, but they didn't allow them to represent Russia.

2:15:01Joe Rogan:Okay, yeah, because it was a guy from Russia in my weight class. Oh, yeah? In 2016 Olympics. he definitely was kind of strong too

2:15:12Shakur Stevenson:well the russians i mean they were they were the beginning of all this stuff like the eastern

2:15:18Joe Rogan:european women weightlifting they came up with the cheats well they figured it out they figured it out early on they've been doing it a long ass time yeah so who knows with better be ever

2:15:32Shakur Stevenson:or any of these guys, you've got to always assume that without something like VADA or Drug Free Sport or USADA, there's always going to be someone who's trying to figure out a way to get a competitive advantage.

2:15:46Joe Rogan:Yeah, I hate it. It's gross. I hate it. It comes with it, though.

2:15:50Shakur Stevenson:Yeah, it comes with it. It is what it is. So anything else you want to cover before we wrap this up? Nah, I ain't got nothing else. I think we're good. Listen, man, congratulations on everything. It's been beautiful to watch you fight. I'm a giant fan. Thank you. And I'm happy to see after the Lopez fight, you get all the respect and the credit that you deserve. And I can't wait to see what happens next.

2:16:12Joe Rogan:Thank you. I appreciate you. And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to come on the podcast. One of the best podcasts in the world. I appreciate you.

2:16:21Shakur Stevenson:Thank you very much. My honor. All right. Bye, everybody.

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