JRE MMA Show #183 with Rico Verhoeven

34:32Yeah. And he's a big fella. Yeah, he's bigger than I am. Jamal Ben Sadiq is huge. Powerful, powerful guy. So that's hard for me. But I got to work on that for myself. Yeah, but that's also why you're great. Yeah. I mean, you have to hate mistakes. Hate them. Yeah. Like they're poison. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But you should have seen me after the fight. Like, I was like a big baby. I was crying in my hotel room, like a big, big baby. I was like, oh, my God. I was so close. It was like shocking the world. And now this happened. It was like, oh, it hurt so bad. I can only imagine.

35:13It still hurts to a certain extent. But at least you can laugh at it a little bit now. Yeah. I can only imagine. To me, watching it, as a fan of yours, I was like, oh, my God. He's going to fucking pull it off. Yeah. I was on the edge of my seat. And when we're going into the ninth and tenth rounds, I was like, I don't see how Usyk can win. And then when they started talking about the scorecards, I was like, what the fuck are they watching? This is crazy. They're looking at a different fight. But that's... Either corrupt or incompetent. Yeah, but for me, if I look at it now, and for us talking about it, and for you being so long into combat sports and being a commentator and doing it yourself, wouldn't it be something?

35:52Wouldn't you be maybe a spokesman, or could you be a part of a way how we can make this whole judging thing and this whole transparency better? Well, I think one way to do it is to have more judges like Glory does. I think five is probably the right number. And I think another thing to do is maybe have a bunch of people online that are recognized experts, like top trainers, top commentators, people that really understand the sport, and maybe they get an app. Maybe there's like a special app that those guys can judge on. So you have a collective expert opinion, and you get to look at that as well.

36:36But that's what we had now. Like if you look, the professionals, the trainers, the commentators, they all saw the fight a certain way, but the judges saw something totally. They were looking at a different fight for some kind of reason. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Identity theft costs more than you think. That's why LifeLock is backed by the Million Dollar Protection Package, which covers up to$3 million for the most comprehensive plan. So if your money is stolen due to identity theft, if you have personal expenses while resolving it, like paying for extra childcare or need coverage for lost wages because work also had to take a backseat, LifeLock has your back.

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38:42A problem like we talked about. It's either incompetence or it's corruption. And I think it might be a little bit of both. Yeah. And I think maybe the corruption isn't even conscious, but it's like they know who the promoter wants to win. They want Usyk to win because Usyk is where you can get the next Tyson Fury fight or the Anthony Joshua, well, not Anthony Joshua, but whoever he would decide to fight, you know, again. Yeah. And now it's going to be Deontay Wilder, which nobody's calling for. I don't know if it's going to happen. Where is that? signed can you please find out if that anthony joshua or excuse me the uh dionte wilder um alexander usick fight is signed because people were talking about that being i think they were saying like december or something they were trying for it at least i know that's what i that's what they were trying for but for me like that's why for now it's not officially signed yet Okay.

39:35A plea to His Excellency. Turkey, I'll shake. This is the fight. But here's the question. Does Usyk want that fight? That's the question. I don't know. When you have a really tough fight like that fight, and then they ask you to do it again, and this is your last time out, he's calling this his last fight. If this is his last fight and he almost lost to you and he has the potential of losing again, they'd have to entice him. They'd have to fucking pull out that paper. Pull out that paper. Then he's like, if I lose, that is what it is. exactly that's why it's so good for me now to be in this position I'm a free agent we got offers from the biggest organizations across the world after this fight and I'm just taking my time what offers have they given you that's exciting can you talk about them not really I know a lot of people talked about you possibly boxing Francis Ngannou or having an MMA fight with Francis Ngannou Was out on the table?

40:44Yeah. So to be honest, like two weeks before the Usyk fight, there was the MVP card, right? But then they approached me like weeks before MVP to MMA versus Francis. And then I was also like right on the edge of like closing the deal with Usyk. And so I had the two options on the table. And, yeah, to be honest, like, the other, the MMA deal, like, they kept on, like, stacking up, stacking up. Like, Rico, it's like, okay, what if we give you the, okay, but what if we give you the, okay, let me look at this option again. So, but then, yeah, I just looked myself in the mirror, like, I respect his excellency.

41:35and Jason gave his word, and His Excellency gave his word that they were going to do it. And if I look at myself, I'm looking at Legacy and that Francis Nagano fight is still going to be there after the Usyk fight, but how crazy is that as a kickboxer coming in, fighting for a world championship within boxing and potentially winning because that's how I... I only have one plan, and that's winning. So that's how I went into that fight. and we saw how that went and it was crazy. Didn't you wish you could kick him? No, not really. Not at all? No. Didn't you wish you could just a few low kicks? No, because he's definitely not going to make it to the end.

42:16No, but that was so funny because everybody's like, Rico, you've been kickboxing for so long. Like, what happens if you head kick him? Don't you have that feeling? Like, guys, I've been boxing next to doing kickboxing for 15 years or something. I've been working with Peter Fury for so long, and I'm used to this. But I think that's what made me such a good kickboxer as well, that I was into boxing. But there's a giant difference between working with a kickboxer and even being a kickboxer and fighting arguably the greatest heavyweight of all time. A hundred percent. Crazy. A hundred percent. But the crazy thing was, I think it was around five or six.

42:58I was like, he was jabbing me. I was just ticking it away, and I was like, pum, pum, pum. I'm like talking to myself in the fight. I'm like, am I out jabbing the champ? This is crazy. And then my trainer, Dennis, Rico, just keep doing what you're doing. You're winning this fight. Let's go, let's go, let's go. Because he also didn't want me to take too many risks. He's like, okay, you won this round, and then continue from there. because that's how they were experiencing it, the fight and the rounds on the side. Well, let me ask you this. When you first started formulating a game plan, did you watch a bunch?

43:37I'm sure you're already a fan of Usyk's. You watch his fights. But did you re-watch him and try to find patterns? How did you formulate this game plan? Of course, with my trainer, Peter Fury.

43:51He's crazy. He's the very, very, very best at what he does. and we were just like analyzing these fights like so first he already had the thing in his mind and he asked me like what do you see all these boxers do and what they shouldn't be doing and what do you think they should do so i look at it i look at it look at it and i think it basically started with if somebody is a South Pole, why would you stay right in front of them? That's one thing. And because you cannot go, if somebody is Orthodox, you move to the right. But you cannot move to the right with a South Pole because you're walking straight into a left hand.

44:39So why is nobody moving to the left? Because then as soon as you move to the left, You're walking away from that strong arm. I think that's what we said. Exactly. Which is crazy. It's just so many people are so stuck in their patterns. Exactly. The way they like to move. They like to move to their right. Yeah. That's what they like. They feel good. They want to move to their right and throw a right hand. But you're just running into that power hand. It's just crazy. It's not just that, too. It's also the size difference. Like, that was one thing. It's like you were so big in that ring. that you were smothering him and you were on top of him and you were throwing those shots in tight.

45:20Yeah, but the combination of those two getting him out of that position took away so many of his tools. And then, like you said, smothering him, getting into him, and using my size. Because if you ask me, like all the guys he fought are way – they're my size. They're way bigger than him. Right. But because of the way they fought, they couldn't use their size on him. But the way I did it, I could. Tyson Fury did a lot. He used his size a lot. And he's a different kind of big, though. He's big and long where you're fucking thick. It's a different thing. You're very lean and huge. It's like the mass of you when you were on top of him pushing him.

46:07You could see that it was a factor. He was recognizing it. But it's so hard. Like if you look at that fight that you just mentioned, is how are you going to get it? He tried to use his sides, but how are you going to get close to him walking straight into it? Because then he's just going to keep moving. Right. Because he's so fast on his feet. But that's what we try to do. We try to be faster on our feet and move to the side and then get into it and then get close. Because then as soon as he's a sophomore, you keep moving this way and just keep getting closer. somewhere you're gonna you're gonna be there you're gonna reach him yeah but it takes it takes some time and i didn't think if you look at the heavyweights what they all want to do is they want to bam they want to hit maybe boom boom one two versus the very of arguably one of the best to have ever done it and then especially in a cruiserweight how are you going to hit him in step a right it's going to be at least step b c or d when you're going to hit him you got to have multiple plans like for me i was just throwing throw throw throw throw and i know i was gonna i was the first time i was gonna hit him was maybe in punch six or whatever because then the distance is gonna be closer so i didn't even think about trying to knock his head off that's what i said i said okay that's what i'm gonna do i'm gonna try and knock his head off of course i'm gonna tell him that because that this is definitely not what we're gonna do i was just gonna get close right and keep keep working keep working volume and then finally when you're there that's the moment you're gonna put in some power but that's like maybe punch seven or eight but the first three four you're not even gonna hit it's gonna you just you're just hitting air because he's too fast right yeah he's like a giant lomachenko exactly but that's how we thought about it don't try and hit him in the first two or three punches throw them so he has something to look at and something to think about and then we're gonna get there and as soon as you get there you smother him boom punch him in the body what heavyweight boxers have you worked with over the years all the the top fighters of course that's how i got with pd fury i started with tyson fury I trained with Ajit Khabarjal because he was also in that

48:36camp back then Yui Fury Peter's son I think he's also he's been going up and down because of his health but he's definitely one of the best and he we're going to see more of him because yeah he's such a good competitor, such a good boxer as well. Great skill set. So there's been a bunch of fighters that we've worked with. That's so massive. Because sharing all that gym time with elite guys like Tyson Fury and Kolbeyev, having that kind of experience in the gym must have also been a huge confidence boost. 100%. Especially now, this whole last thing is trying to get good South Pole fighters. Oh my god, that's the hardest thing.

49:26And then we had one big guy and one smaller guy. It was so hard. And then mixing that up. So we started off with the first six with the big guy, Moses Jolly, and an amazing boxer, but he's big, he's big, he's heavy. He's not an Usyk. He's like twice as big as Usyk, but he's a softball. So he has that power and we could really compete. And then after that, we jumped in with James Branch and he's like 90 kilo South Pole. So he's like, throw a rapid fire punch. And that change within sparring. So the first six with one and then six with the other. Oh my God, that was next level. It was like six months of pure hard work.

50:23Wow. But it was so cool. It was so cool. And it just opened up my mind to a whole different world. And it's for being in combat sports since I was six. And after all these years saying, okay, this kickboxing chapter within the book is, I think that's done. let's start a new chapter well there's no big kickboxing fight that can compare with what you just did no exactly i mean how old are you now 38 37 37 yeah so at that age like you've gotta you gotta like look at what you've already accomplished yeah in kickboxing there's no fight that everyone's calling out for like oh yeah you know it's not like badur hari's at the in the prime no it's not like one big fight no no so there was like hey and especially with the whole crossover fights being at the biggest attention right now.

51:21It's like, hey, I think this is something we got to look at. So after the fight is done, Turkey Al-Sheik comes into the ring, says you guys are going to fight again and it's been a couple months now. So what has happened? Do you talk to anybody? Has your management talked to anybody? Yeah, they talked to everybody because it's been crazy. Like all the biggest organizations reached out. Hey, we were looking at this fight. We're looking at that fight. But what about? What makes sense for us? And that's where I'm looking at now because, like I said, I believe I'm in the winter of my career. So I'm just looking at big fights.

52:03Do you have a timeline when you want to get out? No, it's not set in stone. But let's see. Let's see. but like I said I feel like I'm so excited I'm so I'm so happy and I'm so grateful to be in this position right now so let's yeah make history yeah I mean it's all about legacy right they fucked you over but you did win you got a big win out of it in that you performed way better than anybody expected and and then there's also this element where people are rooting for you because they do think you got fucked over yeah I think you were getting fucked over in the scoring and you got fucked over with a stoppage.

52:43And so it's very marketable. And so my question, though, what I'm asking is, has anybody talked about the rematch other than that one time? I knew this was going to come. I mean, that's the fight. What I want to know is, oh, he's talking about the rematch. That is the fight. I know. That's one of the biggest fights in heavyweight boxing right now. I know. 100%. If not, though, it's got to be, other than Tyson Fury versus Anthony Joshua was going to be big for England. Yeah. Right? For them, that's an all-time fight. 100%. Two of the all-time greats in England. Two of the greatest British heavyweight champions ever.

53:19A little bit late, but... It's a little late, especially after Anthony Joshua's last fight. That was a scary one. I was like, whoa. Yeah, but both of them. Yes. Both of the fights, they did. Yes. Yeah. I don't know. They're not the same guys. No. But still, they're legends. But still, they're super excited. Exactly. They're both legends. And it's a huge fight. that finally got made. Other than that, the fight is a rematch. You and Usyk is the fight. That is the fight in the heavyweight division right now. There's no one else out there that's like, you know, there's Moses Aitama who people don't really know about enough yet.

53:54Not yet, yeah. But he's the future. 100%. That guy's good. Dynamite. Dynamite. He's so fast. He's so good. And he's so slick in how he moves in and out. No, that's, the next generation. He's the future. I mean, he's like our generation's Mike Tyson. When you watch him, he's 21 years old, he's coming up and you're like, holy shit. But other than, I mean, but he doesn't have enough experience yet and doesn't have enough name yet for what he really is and what his potential is. Not yet. It one day will happen, but for you and for Usyk and for heavyweight boxing, that's the vibe. Yeah, 100%. I wish I was a promoter.

54:35Yeah. maybe we'll get dana white to get zufa involved oh that would be crazy i don't know what is does does uh is there some sort of a deal that uh usik has with anybody i don't think so because i i believe that is one of the reasons as well why he vacated those belts right because he doesn't want to deal with anybody else no because you when you have those belts you get forced into fights right Like, okay, you're mandatory to fight this guy. And that was, I think, for him, the position that he was in fighting me, he could, like, that was a voluntary defense. And he decided, like, hey, I would love to do this on my terms versus another guy.

55:20And I think they looked at it like, this is maybe going to be an easier fight, so this is nice to do. That didn't go the way his plan. but still I think that's where his mind is at now like he's like I just want to do what I want to do which makes so much sense after what he has accomplished after what he has accomplished he should be able to call his own shots and I want him to make the most money possible because he is a legend but this is the fight but the problem is it might be too hard it might be one of those ones which is why maybe you know no disrespect to Deontay but he might be looking at Deontay thinking Deontay's a little softer yeah and we're gonna just ride into the sunset yeah go out with a spectacular knockout yeah but it's also then like you said it's not gonna be the the big money grab that because if you ask me people gonna pay for that no exactly they're not gonna be paid that that crazy money for it it's not a big pay-per-view fight that's the thing it's like people will watch it just because he's an all-time great.

56:25And any time Usyk fights, people are going to watch. And Deontay still, he's still the greatest one-punch knockout artist in the history of the sport. Yeah, because you never know what's going to happen when he fights. That's the last thing you lose is the power. His power is fucking crazy. Yeah, he's geeky. He'll finish you in the 10th. Yeah, with one shot. Plop. Coming out of nowhere. He hit Ortiz on the top of the head and put him out. I was like, that is nuts, man. He's so good. Different level of power. Different level of power. But, again, 40 years old, it's the twilight of his career, and this hasn't looked good in the last few years.

57:01But for Usyk to want that fight signals to me that he just wants to go out with one more payday and that's it. And I don't know if that was his choice, that fight. Maybe that's just the Internet talking. Maybe that's Deontay Wilder's team wants that fight. I don't know. I don't know either, but like I said, I got all the options. They gave me all the options. Like, hey, you want to fight this guy? You want to fight that guy? So have they talked to you about MMA as well? Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, I'm keeping the options open. But you're leaning towards boxing. Yeah, because I've been in the boxing game now, and I've enjoyed it so much.

57:38And that's, like, for me, like I just said, I came from kickboxing from being six years old and doing it for over 30 years, and then now getting really into boxing. I was always boxing, but I was boxing to kickbox. It's a totally different game. I had to rewire everything that was in there. So now that I did it and I performed the way that I performed, I was like, yeah, this was fun. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. You've probably heard about BetterHelp before, but maybe you haven't heard from those who have actually used BetterHelp. That feedback can tell you everything you need to know.

58:19Go to BetterHelp.com slash reviews and check out the feedback from hundreds of people saying how much they love this service. It's easy to see why. To get started, all you have to do is answer a few questions. You'll get matched up with a therapist based on your needs. And if it's not the right fit, you can switch therapists at any time. See the reviews, see what stands out, and see if BetterHelp is right for you. Visit BetterHelp.com slash J-R-E. that's better h e l p dot com slash j re i really enjoyed that also that is the glory division no pun intended of the heavyweight division is the heavyweight division of boxing rather is the heavyweight division the heavyweight division is where the real money is at always yeah that is the baddest it's always been that way and for you after that performance i gotta think there's a lot of options for you yeah like i said we they threw us so many stuff at us but we're like hey we take our time look at the different options and of course still uh his excellency has our first preference because they gave us the opportunity right when yeah we had we had what was it like to fight in front of the pyramids that's crazy too insane outside it was insane joe it's like let me tell you another story um so that happened uh also while i was in this camp uh it's not a nice a nice thing to say but my mother passed away during the moment i was in camp for this fight and well that happened it was it was hard and then we had to clean out her house and then finally doing that and cleaning everything and then we come by a bunch of pictures and you can see it on my Instagram and then I see the pictures of my mother 30 years prior being in front of the pyramids like wow why do I see these pictures now knowing that this fight is in front of the pyramids it was mind-blowing and so for me it was like full circle going back I like literally made the same pictures my mother made 30 years prior before the fight in front of the swings in front of the pyramids and that was like Goosebumps so for me having that whole experience being in front of the pyramids doing that Was like full circle when did they come up with that idea to have you guys fight in front of the pyramids well The way they look at that.

1:01:03Yeah, that's crazy that really is crazy wow

1:01:14wow yeah

1:01:19that really is wild yeah

1:01:25still alive

1:01:31Of course, of course. So when did they come up with the idea of having a heavyweight title fight in front of the pyramids? Yeah, so the communication is always really straightforward. And they don't say too much. So the way it began, the first thing I got was just a WhatsApp picture. we're thinking about this location. That was the thing. Because first I saw the picture, I opened it. Oh, it's the pyramids. Nice. And then after that, I looked at it. We're thinking about this location. I'm like, okay, but how are you going to do that? To me, it didn't make too much sense. And then afterwards, they sent me a video.

1:02:24Yeah, we're going to do it here. It's going to be outside. And it's like, oh my God, it's going to be outside in front of the pyramids, it's like mind-blowing. And that was also a thing. That's what I said. It was like the rumble in the jungle. Right. But then with that being said, what people thought, like what is this guy talking about? Is he putting himself in the same category as Ali and Foreman or whatever? What is he? No, that's not what I'm saying. I mean about the location. I never put myself in that. Everybody that knows me, like, I'm super humble, so I never would say something like that.

1:03:06But that's what I meant. Like, it was something like the rumbling in the jungle because we're talking about the location. Right. The location was a part of the experience. Exactly. It was insane, Joe. And then for me, they asked me, like, Rico, can we ask you to do, like, a certain choreography? Okay, I don't want to do too much. I want to focus on fighting Uzi. I said, okay, the only thing you got to do is, like, punch the ground, and then the ground is going to crack open, and then we're going to, like, for the first time that evening, boom, we're going to turn on the pyramids. That's cool. That sounds good.

1:03:39I'll do that. So I did that. So I punch the ground. I turn around. And for the first time, we see, like, the ground cracking open, and then the lights shine onto the pyramids. Wow. Wow. It was a goosebump moment. Was that your first time being at the pyramids? Yeah, so that's why this whole picture and this whole thing was, for me, it was like a full circle. Like, wow. It was such a special moment, such a special event. And then, okay, then I turn around, then my whole theme song comes up. You know how I run to the ring. Yeah. But that wasn't like a real catwalk. And during the day, I already went to see, like, what they expected from me and, like, how I'm going to.

1:04:22and there was like some small steps, like down, like five or six. But then I hear my song, I do my thing, and I do, and I run to the ring. But I was like walking straight onto these steps. I'm like, am I going to take these steps fast? I'm like, no, fuck them. I'll just jump down. I just decided that at the moment. And then I landed. It was like, ooh, this was higher than I expected. and I just kept on running just think about like maybe I just like sprained my ankle or something jumping from the crazy oh my god it was so funny because afterwards the cameraman who woke up to me he's like I almost missed you you were jumping down I was looking at you looking at you like you were gone that was wild it was outside the temperature was actually was pretty good.

1:05:21What was the temperature? I think it was like 20, 20 degrees. So that's Celsius. What is that? It's like 70 something. Yeah, sure. It's real swirly in the real mid part. What's that, Jamie? I mean, 100, you know, is boiling and 212 is boiling for Fahrenheit but like 0 and 30, I don't know, yeah. Somewhere in the middle is just weird. Put it in the, I will. Here, I'll do it right here. I have this on the screen, I can't. What is 20 degrees Celsius in Fahrenheit? 68. Oh, perfect. That was nice. So you're like, ah! And I run, and I whoop! I just jumped out. Wow. Oh, no, it was so cool. Did it feel any different than any other fight you've had before?

1:06:05No? No. We've had so much. How many kickboxing fights have you had? 75-something. 75. That's crazy. Yeah. That is crazy. Yeah. it was yeah it was that's a giant huge advantage of having so much combat sports experience yeah but but where everybody was leaning towards was like this guy has one professional boxing fight what is he doing there this doesn't make any sense like guys i've been in and around the ring for quite a while i have a bunch of friends of mine that are just boxing fans yeah and they were talking all kinds of shit like you know also i had so many apologies i had so many rico about so many famous boxers i'd be like i didn't know what you were capable of but damn this was this was crazy like oh thank you appreciate that quite honestly i didn't know what you're going to be capable of either because i knew you as a kickboxer were one of the greatest of all time yeah but as a boxer i hadn't seen i'm like you're taking away one of his biggest weapons which is the low kicks.

1:07:08I mean, your low kicks are phenomenal. You have tree trunk legs. You know, so I was like, that's a giant weapon that's removed from him. Like, we'll see. He's also fighting one of the greatest of all time, if not the greatest boxer of all time in the heavyweight division. But to have that kind of a performance and to do it the way you did it, it's like, man, it was amazing to watch. As a person who is watching combat sports, it was one of the most exciting things I'd ever watched. Yeah, thank you so much. I appreciate that. But for me, I think what worked in my advantage the most was if you look at kickboxing and it's logical, like physically, it's like you're so square on.

1:07:49And everybody thought that was what I was going to do. But I was boxing always to kickbox. But Peter Fury has been telling me to get more on the side for years. But how, as a kickboxer, am I going to be more on the side? They're going to kick my leg off because I can't block anymore. So I was constantly trying to find the balance within that. And now Peter was super happy because now finally he could teach me boxing to box. Right. So now I had to. Proper stance. Every time, go more to the side, more to the side because you're too square on. Right. Go back. So I needed the six months. So much hard work.

1:08:35we had to put into that. Did you find yourself having to correct it mentally or did it get to a point where it was instinctive, the stance and the positioning? No, I had to definitely correct and they had to tell me. But were you correcting in the fight? In the fight, was it instinctive? No, in the fight, it was... You had gotten it in there. We got it down. But within the whole prep, it was... So you really do need the six months for that. 100%. Yeah. 100%. So for me, this whole experience of getting into boxing, like, it was perfect. It was perfect. For everybody around it, it was really terrible.

1:09:15Of course, Anthony Joshua went through and everything, so the most horrific thing ever. But for me, getting into the transition to boxing, I needed that time to get a clean transition. And that's why I was super happy with the six months and the change of fights. I still believe the Anthony George run fight is still a big fight that we could do. But, yeah, getting the opportunity to fight for a boxing heavyweight title is on another level big, of course. Oh, yeah, it's gigantic. And also, I've got to think that from that experience, you're even better now. 100%. You have to be better. We're in there with the best guy ever.

1:10:00Yeah, 100%. But the funny thing is, like, that's why I made the meme of Jim Carrey. Like, because everybody was like, he's moving pretty strange. What is he doing? But we knew that that thing would work versus Usik. But we got so many more tools in the toolbox that we can pull out. because in another fight versus a different fighter, we're going to show a whole different Rico again. But if we're going to fight Usyk again, it's going to be slightly different, but it's still like basically the strategy works. Well, you gave him so many things to think about constantly. Yeah. There was no time to set.

1:10:46No. There was always chaos. There was always hands moving. There was always your bodies moving. You're moving forward. You're shuffling around. it was so much activity that his mind has to constantly process all these different things but normally that is what he does yes and that's if you look at the whole heavyweight division all his previous fights he was in control he was showing them so much and if you have something to look at the whole time it's like it keeps you it gets your mind out of what you want to do because you're constantly anticipating what your opponent is doing so that's yeah what we try to do We try to take that from him.

1:11:23What were you doing for conditioning? I just want to know what your conditioning is like in general because you are such a big guy. And to be that big and have that kind of cardio is very extraordinary.

1:11:40Do I agree? Do I agree? Maybe partially I agree with that because to be honest, at the top, Joe, everybody works hard, right? That's what I do. I just work incredibly hard. But I believe that mentally when you get tired or when your body gives signals of starting to feel tired, how do you cope with that in your mind? That's where I think the biggest difference is. Because if at the moment I feel I'm getting tired, then I know my opponent is feeling fucked. Right, right, right. Because I know how hard I work to be fit and to do everything possible to be in the best shape ever. Because if you look at training schedules or whatever, from my schedule versus another guy's schedule, I find it hard to believe that I'm training so much harder than all the other top guys.

1:12:44Yeah, that's my opinion. I find that hard to believe. So for me, it's just like a mental thing. As soon as I start feeling it, I'm like, okay, now the fight starts. Well, there's certain people have genetics that lean towards better cardio and conditioning. Like in the UFC, Cain Velasquez was famous for that. He was a monster. He just had insane cardio for a heavyweight. But for you, what I'm getting at, how much time are you spending on strength and conditioning versus skill work? This episode is brought to you by Visible. It's officially summer, folks, and boy, what a summer we are having. It feels like one of those good old-fashioned summers we just want to enjoy every moment and keep up with the action.

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1:15:02Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Rogan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. I think it's pretty balanced. It's pretty balanced. But, for example, everything I do is based on endurance. So even the power jump. I don't have to do 300 pounds bench press. I don't care. I know I'm already big. Right. I know I'm not the hardest puncher within the game. I don't have to be the hardest puncher in the game. but as soon as I hit I'm still heavyweight still like 260 pounds behind it so when I hit you you gotta feel it so that's how we approach it just lean into what works for you I'm not the strongest puncher I also don't believe I'm the most skillful but I'm definitely the hardest worker and that's what we try to emphasize like just keep working keep working hard so we Yeah, the pace is high.

1:16:09We can show a lot. We can do a lot. Do you have a guy that's just a strength and conditioning guy? Yeah. So what kind of work were you doing? What kind of things are you doing? You want to know it all, right? Yeah, I want to know it all. I do a full body, full body workout three times a week. And just a lot of reps. A lot of reps. So this is more strength than conditioning, or is it both at the same time? It's both at the same time. Because what we do is we have, for example, we do chest. And I do like 20 reps, just the beginning, 20 reps. Then we get to another exercise. And then again, I do 20, 20 reps.

1:16:52So we do 40 reps each. And those reps are going to go up the closer we get to the fight. But the rest between the exercise is just 30 seconds. And then we change exercise. and we go to a different muscle group and then we go back to chest and then again we do 20-20 30 seconds, okay we go to a different muscle group and then again 30 seconds so the pace is incredibly high and I think that whole training takes maybe 35-40 minutes max Yeah that's got to be a giant factor because I don't know how many people are doing that that way, you know a lot of guys are doing strength and or conditioning, they're running they're hitting the bag, they're doing different things.

1:17:34Yeah, but for me, like, I'm not focusing on, when I'm focusing on strength, I don't want to be big. I feel like I'm already pretty big. Right. And the more muscles I have, I have to just carry them with me. And all those muscles, they want and they need oxygen. So then my heart is going to be, like, pumping just to get that oxygen there. No, I just focus on that. Boom, and then I start with 20, and then I get to 22, and then I get to 24s. And then with the same exact weight. So you get so much stronger at the same time, you get so much fitter. Right. And that combination just, I don't know, it's just been working for us throughout the years.

1:18:13So are you using apps and heart rate monitors and things along those lines? Yeah, we use heart rate monitors. I do running in different ways. We do the interval running. We do the endurance running. Sometimes you just run for an hour. and then you do the interval running is this mostly treadmill work yeah yeah because like my my body's yeah been through a lot right so running on the concrete running outside rough on the knees no it's uh i don't believe it's smart so i have this special uh treadmill which i'm i can take some of my own weight off so i have this big balloon around me oh okay i I know what you're talking about.

1:18:59I've seen those before. Yeah, so I got that since I had the ACL surgery on the knee and ever since I've been using it and I love it. I love it so I can do the running experience and because I love running because it's so hard, so heavy on the body and mentally it's so hard but then I don't have the full force on my joints. Like, doof, doof, doof, doof. Right. It's just like, yeah, it's not good. Well, I mean, you got to think of all those years of leg kicks. Leg kicks and, oh, my God. Especially when I got the ACL, I was like, oh, my God. How long ago did that happen? Three years ago? Three years ago?

1:19:42Yeah. I thought I was done. So much pain. So much pain. I was like, why? I'm, like, getting close to the end of my career. Now this happens. It's like, oh. and then getting back from that within six months that was like because i had a bucket handle meniscus and at the acro acl i had exactly the same thing yeah it was it was terrible did they remove the meniscus no no they just stitched it back so the smarter yeah they know that now yeah but the first six weeks you're not allowed to to put too much pressure on it right right but oh my god they used They used to think that you should cut the meniscus out, and now they've done studies, and they find that there's no benefit to that.

1:20:26Of course not, because your meniscus is right between the bones, or else it's just bone on bone. Exactly. Especially with me being so heavy and so big, and within 10 years, you're going to have trouble if we're going to take it out. Yeah, I have trouble on my left leg because of that very reason. They took a big piece of it out when I had the bucket handle tear, and that area hurts all the time. Yeah. It is what it is. They do cadaver grafts where they'll take a cadaver meniscus and put it in place. Really? Yeah, they take a piece of meniscus out of a dead guy. But it doesn't always work, and you really have to be young for it to work more effectively.

1:21:05I guess they say that, but that also could be dependent upon what you're doing with it. Like, are you using peptides? Are you using stem cells? Are you using hyperbaric chamber? Yeah. Are you using red light therapy? are using all the different modalities that can help you heal quicker. But, yeah, I know a guy who got it done. You definitely use everything because you haven't aged a day since we did the last show. I use everything, bro. I don't know how you do it, but after the show, you've got to give me the recipe. Well, I probably do a lot of the things you do because I know you do cold plunge every day.

1:21:36I love it. I do that every morning. And I do a lot of sauna work, but I do a lot of red light therapy. I do that at least four or five times a week I try to do it. But I have a hyperbaric chamber. I do that a lot. I try to do that as many days a week as I've done that two days in a row now. I like to do it three, four days a week. When I'm really feeling better is when I'm doing it three or four days a week. And just constantly training. You can't get out of shape. You do it all, right? You do the G2. If you get out of shape, you can't get back in shape. But if you stay in shape, it's remarkable how much you can keep it going.

1:22:10Look at Bernard Hopkins. I mean he was performing at a world class world championship level at 50 years old as a boxer which is nuts. That's insane. And it's just because of his discipline. You know never got fat. Never got out of shape. Always stayed in the gym. Never ate bad food. And also mentally it keeps you just in balance. Yeah. Because that's what I believe why just training in general for everybody is so good because that's me time. Yep. that's the time that you're working on what is good for you and for your mental health. And you're not thinking about, hey, I'm at work. I'm making money to provide for the family or I'm doing groceries for this.

1:22:49No, I'm in the gym and I'm working on me. I can turn your phone off, listen to some music, and just work on your body and your mental health. It's so good. And the effects of it afterwards, the alleviation of anxiety and pressure and just how good you feel, the endorphins. I just wish people that don't do it could understand that because so many people, they just have an aversion to the hard work. They have an aversion to getting there. They're just like, oh, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it. But if you just do it, you'll feel so much better. And then everybody wants to talk about discipline, and discipline is very important.

1:23:28It's the most important thing probably. But almost equally important is momentum. and once you have a few good days in a row, the discipline is not as hard anymore because now you have momentum. Yeah, 100%. You're right, but the thing is, what happens, same with the cold plunge that we do multiple times a week or almost every day, is like some days, same as going to work or whatever, you just wake up and you just do not feel like doing it. But then the discipline comes in. I do not feel like doing it, but I am going to do it. Because if I can do it on the days that I do not feel like doing it, every other day is going to be easy.

1:24:13And that's, for me, what I felt like I was just sharing with you, what I find so hard, for example, with the losing, the mistakes that I made, that's what I've been doing, to be honest, my whole life. That's what I'm trying to work on now. is like everything that happened in my life, like it's been some crazy, it's like my mother passed away within this preparation and I do not take the time to really take that. Take it in. Take it in, like what just happened. And I had the same thing with my father, it was like right before the Ben Sadiq fight. And I just take it and I continue because what I do, I take it and it's a certain emotional pain and I use that to put it in physical pain so I can use it as fuel for what I do in the ring and whatever as my job.

1:25:15But I feel like personally in relationships and just in general in just living, I think that's not the way to cope with it. So that's what I'm trying to work on now. So it's very difficult to be balanced if you also want to be excellent. Yeah. If you want to be the best, you know, if you want to be and accomplish what you've accomplished, you have to be obsessed. And if you have to be obsessed, it's almost impossible to be balanced. It's almost impossible to have a balanced life and also be obsessed on a goal. No, 100%. But I don't feel like it's so much about the balance, but it's just not the way to cope with life in general, next to being an athlete and being a fighter, which is a big part of what you do.

1:26:04But just like in general, like, okay, how do you cope with things, especially now with this, for example, with this loss? is like how do I find a way to give this loss and a way of like okay that I can work with it without like feeling frustrated or like oh I got robbed or whatever. So and I feel like that's getting better. So I watched my mom funeral back like I think like four or five weeks ago for the very first time so she passed away in february that's when i've watched her back for the first time just to take it all in again and again i went like all the way through it and i'm like okay i need to to do that more to get i don't know if it's balanced or just i don't know just to get like a way of feeling like yeah i can i can take that that emotion in Because now I'm just pushing that emotion away and just using it as fuel to be a fighter and be the best version of me within the ring.

1:27:22But as a person, I don't feel like it's a healthy way to just keep pushing everything. No, certainly not. Keep pushing it down. Well, it's great that you recognize that, though. and that will definitely help you as you transition from being a fighter to being a retired fighter and doing whatever else you want to do. You have so much time left in your life to do anything. Yeah, 100%. But recognizing that that is an issue is huge for your ability to move on to do other things. Yeah, 100%. That's a giant struggle for a lot of fighters. The struggle, especially fighters that have competed at your level, the glory, the excitement, the chaos of it all is so huge.

1:28:03that to step away from that is very, very difficult for a lot of guys. Yeah, that's why I'm so happy. And I also believe that what gave me this is that I found my new passion within acting. So being on set with Jake Gyllenhaal, with Dave Bautista, with Eldis Hodge, and those guys being so excellent at what they're doing as actors, and just talking with them about this, I think that also gave me more and more that realization of, hey, instead of just pushing it away, I can use those emotions and that feeling to be an actor at a certain point. So, and I always said, oh, I just kept pushing it away.

1:28:57I don't want to feel it. I don't want to feel it. And as soon as I feel it, I turn it into physical pain. so I know I get to be a better version of me within the ring. I hear what you're saying, but if you want to get into acting, it's good to feel because as soon as you feel, it's even better. It's going to transition even better on camera because then we see that you're feeling something. And if it comes out of your own experience, it's even better. It hurts still, but you can turn into something positive. And that's where I'm really happy about. like after being a fighter i really found my new passion within acting because it's so much fun that's so much fun to be on set and yeah being great at something else yeah that's great that you found something else you're excited about that's really important very important so how many movies have you done uh i did a few did a few i think like a handful and i think the the most recognizable things i did was uh den of thieves pantera den of thieves too nice uh with gerard and o'shea jackson jr and the last one roadhouse so i know of course i've been uh you've been talking with jason like for quite some time now to do something together so we're looking at different different options like hey we could do this but he's like he has a certain focus on what he what he sees like hey rico i want you to do like this type of movie and i want you to be this type of character because i don't want you to die and i want you to do this so it's yeah for him being yeah so experienced within that world i just well also him coming as an athlete as well exactly he was a world-class diver right yeah yeah so and he's a he's a martial arch fanatic he loves it yeah he loves it yeah so uh so that's yeah that's that's amazing so and then yeah telling him that like hey i love the ex so i he comes to my fights i visit him on set like hey i just look at what he does and how he does it it's yeah it's out of this world it's the next level well that's so good that you have something that you're really excited about as you retire like transitioning into that and that you already have some success with that yeah 100 % 100 % you have to.

1:31:16Dave Bautista is another one, right? Huge success in WWE, went on to do that, and now he's done a ton of movies. Yeah, and he's really good. Yeah, he's really good. He's a very good actor. Yeah, it's not just like, oh, he's an athlete that tried to do some acting. No, he's a really good actor, and he showed so many different sides of himself. He was great in that. What was it, The Glass Onion? Was that what it was called? Yeah. Yeah, the... What is that? Knives Out. Yeah. Knives Out, Glass Onion, right? That's what it was called? He was great in that. Yeah. He's great. Again, it's like you see these big guys and you say, oh, they're big and they're just going to play a brute.

1:31:59But no, it's like he's a human. Yeah. Human beings have depth. Yeah. You could do a lot of different things. Yeah, exactly. He's losing weight now to show he's more serious. Yeah, but he looks amazing now. He's still fucking gigantic. Yeah, he's still big. He's still 200. I mean, like, oh, he's so small. He's 240. He's huge. No, he's huge, and he's in great shape. He's in great shape. I mean, he's the nicest guy as well. Oh, that's cool. He's the nicest guy. So we had a lot of fun. We had a lot of fun. So it was such an honor to be there on set with them and on such a big production. It's like, wow, he's looking at it.

1:32:32So how do you balance that out? Like, now that you, like, as you've said, you're in the winter of your career, would you accept a movie role right now if you knew that a big fight could potentially happen? No. So you have to be careful right now. Yeah. For me, it's like I'm focused on finishing that. And as soon as I have a movie, I'm like, okay, but then I'm not going to do a fight. It's going to be hard. So, and especially within the other one, I didn't really get the option because I was on Roadhouse. And then I got the Anthony Joshua fight. But back then, I was just the kickboxer. Right. The kickboxer, world champion, but that didn't really say too much.

1:33:17So I was in the underdog position. I was in the passenger seat. Now I show what I can do. So now I got a little more like, yo, guys, I got a movie, so can we push the fight a little bit further so I have the time to get ready for it? Right. So that's better now. But for me, I would never blend those two together. or like, hey, okay, let me finish this movie real quick and then get straight into a fight camp that's going to be like two, two and a half months. I need a good, like, clean four months to get ready for a fight of this magnitude. Right. So when you're talking about these different conversations that people have had with you, is the door completely closed to the UFC?

1:34:00Because I know that they did contact you and they were talking about you fighting and that they were going to try to do that Derrick Lewis fight. I was excited about that. Yeah, me too. But the money was nowhere near, I'm sure, the money he got for the fight. I believe that the gap is even bigger now. Yeah, I'm sure. So I think that's where the actual problem is, just to be completely transparent. So for me, it doesn't make any sense to go around the bush or whatever. And go backwards financially. So if they would want to do something, it really has to make sense. But, yeah, we all know that, yeah, that's not really like how the UFC works.

1:34:42So I don't believe that that is an option. Well, it's interesting because their heavyweight division is so – have you ever worked with Tom Aspinall? Of course. He's a very good friend of mine. Oh, really? Well, that's right. We trained so much already for like I think close to 10 years. This episode is brought to you by SimpliSafe. One thing you probably don't think about when you're planning the perfect summer getaway is protecting your home. But if disaster strikes, you want to be prepared. Even better, if it can be stopped before it happens. So check out SimpliSafe. They're the smarter option when it comes to home security because their systems help prevent and stop crime in real time before it starts.

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1:36:08If you want to level up your business, you got to improve your website. Squarespace gives you everything you need to get a fully custom website, offer services, sell products, and get paid all in one place. Go to squarespace.com slash Rogan for a free trial. And when you are ready to launch, use code Rogan to get 10 % off your first purchase of a website or domain. Man, he got a bad deal. He got really fucked over for that fight. The way people got upset at him for stopping the fight with those eye pokes, to me, that drove me crazy. What do you expect the guy to do? He's defending the heavyweight title.

1:36:52He'd get poked in the eyes and he can't fucking see. And he's had two eye surgeries since then. And he's the nicest guy. He's the nicest guy. And he works incredibly hard. And he would never, never, even though, because I understand where it comes from, from the people to a certain extent, because they feel like, hey, God was doing so good in the beginning of the fight. But it was just the beginning of the fight. It was just like the first round or whatever. So it's possible that, hey, because of some ring rust, you have to get into it, and then the fight ain't over till it's over, right? So you can have an opinion about the first round, and I get an eye poke, oh, now he's going to stop because he knew he was behind or whatever.

1:37:34He would never, never in whatever world do that because he has a fighter heart. No, if you looked at the eye poke, he was knuckled deep in his eyeball. Yeah, it was like gone. Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, Cyril Gaughan has a history of doing that. He's done that. And also, definitely, I truly believe because I know Cyril as well, he's also a very nice guy, and I do not believe he's doing that intentionally to fuck with people or whatever. It's just a bad instinct that keeps happening. Yeah, maybe it's a habit or whatever. You're charging at you, you're doing this, and you're running right into eyeballs.

1:38:10It's just they need to stop doing it. I mean, there's a bunch of different conversations about how to stop it. One of them is change the gloves. You don't need open fingers like that. You don't need that for grappling. No, they could cover the tip of it like a mitten. And there's a way to do that where it would probably eliminate a lot of the eye pokes. Another one is a guy named Trevor Whitman from Onyx Sports. He's a Justin Gaethje trainer who makes a much better glove. Okay. And his glove, your hand is in this position all the time. Instead of the UFC glove, UFC glove your hand's like this.

1:38:46Yeah, your fingers are open. You have to pull it down to tighten up a fist. And this, with Trevor's gloves, it's curved like this. So this is a natural position. As soon as you do this. So you would, like, when Muay Thai fighters, like Cyril Gan, they frame off like that all the time, right? You know that. So when you have those UFC gloves, you're framing off like this. Yeah. And that's when you're running into eye pokes. Yeah. You know, so they try to tell you, keep your fingers up, which is great, but sometimes it doesn't work that way. Yeah, exactly. Especially if you're leaning away. Yeah.

1:39:14You know, I don't think Cyril Gan's a dirty fighter. I just think he's trying to finish fights. Like, Alex Pereira thought he was dirty for hitting him in the back of the head. And I watched the fight over again to watch it. And what I saw is Alex is moving, Cyril's trying to hit him, and sometimes when that happens, some of the shots are going to land on the back of the head. But is it the referee that needs to say, like, hey, stop it? Yes. Yeah, we're fighting, so you've got to chime in whenever you get to punch. It's hard because you're also, like, he might not have the best position to see it because it's chaos.

1:39:47And also, like, if you're trying to hit, like, a guy right here and then his head moves and then you hit the back of the head, whose fault is that? Is that your fault? Are you supposed to pull back? You're in the middle of a shot. It's very difficult to stop. It's hard to say, but when you look at his performance in that fight against Alcuerre, it was fucking extraordinary, man. There's a group chat I have with a few friends of mine, Dean Thomas and Matt Serra and John Rollo. We do a podcast together, and we were just talking about how basketball is a phenomenal base for some of these guys Because Cyril gone.

1:40:23I'm gonna show you I'll send you this video. I'll send it to Jamie and Cyril gone can't fucking move Man and some of the light light feet as well and he's 250 pounds Yeah, but it's the way he moves is so extraordinary and I think some of that is because of basketball because Yeah, well, no, it's not that one This is a brand new video. He's playing against the NBA center. Oh, man there's multiple videos of it then because he's I mean he's pretty sick yeah but that's one of them I was I was with him we did a little movement moving around together and then of thieves too oh he was it was in there we were in the scene together so that was fun it's just having a guy such a nice guy he's like so light so light he moves around so like and so hard to hit man yeah it He's never been in trouble in the fight.

1:41:16I mean, he got finished by Jon Jones, but that was a submission. And Francis Ngannou just beat him by grappling. But he's never been, like, rocked or staggered. He hardly gets hit. No, because he's— Because his movement is so extraordinary. Exactly, especially for a big guy. But that's why I believe—but Tom has that as well. Yes. He has that move. He is light on his feet. Well, his blitz is extraordinary. His ability to cover distance is insane. And he's got one-punch knockout power. Yeah, he's so explosive. Like, boom, he can— I believe he can be a good boxer, but he can also be a good kickboxer, and he's a good MMA fighter.

1:41:50He's so all-around because when he came to kickbox, wow. I just hate that fans reacted the way they reacted, and it's the casual ones, it's the shitheads. For me, I was like, God, you've got to give the guy some grace. He got his eye poked out. I mean, he literally was knuckle-deep in his eyes. For him to, for anyone to think that he should be fighting with one eye like that. Who cares? Keep fighting. That's insane. He got fouled. It's not because of a punch. It's not because he got kicked or an elbow. It's a foul. And so, no, the fight should have been stopped the way it was. And that's, everybody should understand that.

1:42:35It's not his fault. It was his opponent's fault. But how he got to this was like because of the whole deal he has. like how much sense does it make for me to to get into the ufc because connor got like a great deal now uh for his last fight no for you boxing makes the most sense especially at this point in your life financially and you know for for tom i mean he look he has a potential career in boxing as well and now that eddie hearn is uh managing him which is very exciting because uh you know match room being behind him is going to have a gigantic hype machine, gigantic promotion. Like I think it's huge.

1:43:14And that they're at odds with the UFC. Like for me, I care about the fighters making the most money possible. Exactly. And that's how he's going to make the most money possible. Yeah. But like you said, that's what I believe. Like all the fighters deserve. The fighters that bring in the viewers, that are exciting, yeah, they should earn a little bit more, right? That is. A hundred percent. Everything should be in balance. A hundred percent. And that's, I mean, this is where Turkey Al-Sheikh has really ramped up the game, really raised the bar. Yeah. Because he's getting guys to fight that didn't want to fight each other.

1:43:50No, exactly. And he's like, how about this amount? Exactly. And they're like, okay. Okay, there we go. But that's how we got the biggest fight. But next to that, with him giving me the opportunity as well, what he does is he thinks outside of the box. And that's what I love so much about what he does. Because we had also the Francis Nagano Tyson Fury fight. Right. And that was also like... Crazy, right? I don't know about that. Zero professional boxing matches for Francis. Exactly. Right? So that decision was also a little bit controversial. Very controversial. I don't know. So that's why I like what he does.

1:44:36He thinks outside of the box. Like, hey, I like this idea. Let's just try it. Terrence Crawford versus Canelo Alvarez. That's way outside the box. Yeah. You got a guy moving up two weight classes to fight an all-time great. I mean, a lot of people thought Canelo's too big, Canelo's too big. Wow. That was an amazing fight. Oh, my God. Terrence Crawford is one of the greatest of all time. 100%. He is so smooth. It's so good. When he was just, pap, pap, pap, pap, rip, and doing that to Canelo Alvarez. Wow. Oh, my goodness. It was amazing to watch, to watch a guy that's that skillful and have those skills and move up multiple weight classes.

1:45:17Yeah, incredible. And pull it off against a guy like Canelo. And everybody said, like, oh, he's not going to have a shot because Canelo's going to be too big. As soon as he hit him, he's going to get rocked. And he's like, no, I think that was incredible. And they were all at the fight experiments, by the way. That was a pretty good one. Well, it's also Terrence is very smart. And Terrence prepared for that fight for, like, a year. And put on some weight, but not too much. You know, he did a lot of weightlifting. But just enough. Yeah, but just also he was healthier because he didn't have to cut so much weight No, that's a thing to take into consideration You got a guy who's cutting all that weight to make all the different weight classes that he was champion and all the way up to 154 and also he doesn't have to cut weight.

1:46:01Well guess what he's probably walking around 176 177 anyway Yeah, so so it's probably a better performance for him. Like physically he probably felt much better Yeah, he's also used to faster guys and he's so light on his feet at 100 % I said that's so exciting. So that's what yeah, what he does. He makes the fights that Otherwise would have been made right so and I think I respect him for that so much and I'm thankful for that as well So let's see what he's gonna pull out of the head this time for me Well, I mean, for sure now people are going to be excited about you fighting again. And it's even more marketable by far than the first fight was.

1:46:48I just hope it's a rematch. I really do. Because I think that's the just fight to have. That's the correct fight to have, a rematch. When a fight is that close and ends that controversially, and then the scoring is that bad, the right thing to do is to have a rematch. Yeah, and then in a different, like I said, in a different environment, in a different situation. Vegas or Madison Square Garden? I got to be honest, Joe. They're both still on the bucket list. Yeah. I fought in New York, but it was like, I don't know, in a ballroom or something. I don't even remember what it was. I think 2012 or something.

1:47:29So, yeah, Madison Square Garden and Vegas are still on the bucket list. Vegas is great, but Madison Square Garden is iconic. There's something about being in that building. Every time we have fights, we do a UFC in that building. It's like, wow, we're in the garden. That is a special place to be. Yeah, so many things that happened there. Concerts and basketball. Everything. So many concerts, so many fights, so many everything. And it's also in New York City. And as much as New York City is crazy and it's beep beep and honk honk and fuck you. It's still New York motherfucking city. And to have a great world championship fight in New York City is something special.

1:48:12There's something you feel different when they say, live from Madison Square Garden. You're like, oh, shit, it's the Garden. Woo! When you're in the room, when we have fights there, being in the room feels different. Yeah, 100%. But that's also one of the things that he did, a fight on Times Square. I know. Who thinks of that? I know. And the thing is, for him, I believe that whenever you hear something, you say, nah, that's not possible. I think that's the right trigger. That's exactly the trigger he needs. Like, I'll make it possible. I'll make it happen. It's the same with the pyramids. And then with the Times Square, it's like, nah, I don't think that's going to happen.

1:48:57Well, they have a bottomless bank account. Yeah. that's the things like they could just they make things possible they they just throw so much money at guys like and that is exciting i mean that's something that boxing has needed because it's look it took so long to get floyd mayweather to fight manny pacquiao right that was a gigantic fight it took forever and arguably manny was past his prime when they wound up actually fighting which pissed a lot of people off if they had been around back then if turkey ala shake had been around back then they in Riyadh season has been around have been around back then they probably would have made that happen when they're in their prime hundred percent that's what that's what boxing needs that's what MMA needs that's what everybody needs the UFC does that in MMA they kind of force guys to fight you can't get away from it no only the payday is different but yes but you know at the highest levels guys like Connor they're making similar money but it's just that that needs to change in terms of it has to be like it has to be enticing enough that you're going to get the best athletes that realize like, hey, I don't have to go into basketball.

1:50:03I don't have to go. What I really like is fighting. Yeah. Like, and there's enough money in fighting now. Yeah. 100%. Like everything else. But that's the problem like we just talked about. We started off with the whole kickboxing. There's no money to be made. Right. That is the problem. So, well, I mean, I made good money. Maybe MVP can figure that out because, you know, they're dedicated to entering into the MMA space now and they just merged with the PFL. Yeah. Which I think is very exciting. Because I think competition is good. Competition is great and the more competition the better and definitely better for the fighters to have options.

1:50:38100%. And they've got guys over there in the PFL now that are fucking world class, man. They've got some world class fighters. Yeah. So it's exciting. It's exciting to have. They just need to get bigger in terms of the public's recognition. Exactly. So right now, everybody thinks of UFC being MMA. UFC. It's like PFL for the average casual. It's like, what? Who's that? Yeah, exactly. What do they do? Right. But I think, to be honest, Joe, if we look at 10 years ago, combat sports is at its all-time high. Boxing, MMA, kickboxing. Everything is like going through the roof. Yeah, everything is bigger now.

1:51:17I think we're in a very blessed position. Well, 20 years ago, nobody even knew what MMA was. 21 years ago was the first Ultimate Fighter, season one, 2005. And that was really when MMA kind of made it onto the map in terms of the general public understanding of it. From the Ultimate Fighter and that Stefan Bonner-Forrest Griffin fight. But you could see a world where kickboxing could enter into that, you know, 10 years from now, be in a similar category. And I think it should be. I really do. And it's just because of the modern-day world, because of social media and so many different people coming into the sport.

1:51:57And people can say and have an opinion about it. But, for example, with Jake Paul and et cetera and all the influencers. But they're bringing a lot of new eyes to the combat sport. To boxing. A lot of new eyes. Could you imagine if an organization got behind a guy like Ramon Deckers and showed him to the American public when he was in his prime? People would be like, holy shit. Who is this guy? This fucking monster, this animal, this technical animal, you know? That's the thing about where you come from, too. Like for people that don't know kickboxing in Holland that is the epicenter of world championship kickboxing I mean Rob Kamen Ernesto Hughes you I mean so Peter Oh my god, you could go on and on and on and on and on so many of the greatest kickboxers Of course Ramon Deckers, but so many of the greatest kickboxers of all time came from Holland You know, I mean we mentioned Badr Hari I mean so many of these great Melvin man who yeah so many of these great guys 100 % came out of Holland yeah it's kind of nuts if you really think about it yeah now we're such a small country but and everybody exchanges their intelligence with each other and I believe that because we're such a small country that's what increases the level so much everybody trains also with each other go there we go sparring with them go sparring with them go sparring with them and then you learn this from that guy you learn that from that guy and if you do that for example in in the u.s you want to train with somebody out from new york you got to fly all the way there you're not going to stay there too long i think it just takes too much time and because in our country we can just drive anywhere and it's but it's also one of the reasons why pay-per-view never worked there because if they if they wanted to to to visit uh an event just drive there like I'm not going to stay home and pay for it.

1:54:06That doesn't make any sense. I'll just drive there and just go watch it live. Well, that's also why the crowds are so huge. Yeah. Because you guys got massive crowds for some of those kickboxing fights. Yeah, we were setting out arenas. Yeah. People don't know. In America, they don't know how big kickboxing is. In Holland, in the Netherlands, it's gigantic. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's like, I think, number two sport. That's crazy. After soccer. Isn't that funny? Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of crazy if you think about it. It's such a small... How many people even live in Holland? 16, 17 million? Yeah. That's nuts.

1:54:41It's a small country with the greatest kickboxers of all time. It's an anomaly. It's very weird. Very weird how it happened. Yeah, and also, I think this now, for the last 10 years, we've been so good in keyboxing for the last 25 years or even longer but now since the last 10 years it's been recognized as well for the public we've always been good at it but it's always been like I don't know a little bit shady or whatever and now since the last 10 years since me and Botter like put it on the map just exploded and everybody just went behind it. Like, wow, this is cool to watch. We're good at this.

1:55:32We're the best in the world at this sport. Are there gyms all over the place in Holland? Yeah, it was crazy. At a certain point, it was so crazy that every random guy could become a kickboxing teacher. So now, because it became so big and so public, they started to do it like, okay, you gotta get like a diploma and a certificate to become a kickboxing trainer. You cannot just random say, like, hey, I'm a kickboxing trainer. Start kickboxing. Start teaching people. But at a certain point, that was the case. Wow. Yeah, it was crazy. So what happened? How did Holland become so big in kickboxing? I think they, yeah, with Ramon Deckers and everything, they went to, yeah, to Thailand and just like sucked all the information out of that.

1:56:25And we had fighters, trainers going there and they took like... They took the Muay Thai of it and they took that to the Netherlands and then exchanged, like I said, because the country is so small, they exchanged everything with each other. Like this guy learned that, that guy learned that. And if you exchange that with each other, you just get better and you get smarter. But it also has to be something about the culture. That might be just genetics. The mentality of the hobby. Yeah. We're pretty big people. Yeah, pretty big people. But Rob, excuse me, Ramon Deckers was not big. No, he was not big.

1:56:59He was not big. Which was one of the most extraordinary parts of his career was that he was competing against Thais at their week. But in Muay Thai. Yes. Wow. Yes. That was insane with elbows and all. It was brutal. But his boxing, too, was a giant factor. So explosive. So explosive. And his style was so aggressive. Yeah. Like he was like feral. He just kept on going. He was feral. He was just like, people who haven't seen, please go to YouTube and watch Ramon Decker's highlights. Yeah. Whoo. Yeah. Oh my god. Some of the highlights of his knockout highlights like holy shit, man It's incredible.

1:57:38Everything was designed to kill you. Yeah Every shot every leg kick every liver shot every punch to the face Everything was just with full speed ahead power explosion smash Yeah, his ankle was so fucked up that his doctor told him like you can't keep kicking with that thing Like you're going to like lose your ankle. Fucking taped it up. I remember I was still blasting people. I was like a kid and I was watching these fights. Like, oh my God. And then with him being so explosive and then kicking on a block, on a knee or on an elbow. She's like, bop, bop. Just right into it. It's just like, oh, it's just bone on bone.

1:58:19Uh-huh. Oh, it just hurts. By looking at it, it just hurts. Just destroyed his ankle because of that. I mean, in his later fights, later in his years, like when he fought Dwayne Ludwig, I mean, he had to have his ankle taped all over the fucking place. Big thing was like hanging on by a thread. But that's what we were talking about earlier. It's like we as fighters putting our health on the line for entertainment. I mean, forever. He died young. Yeah, he died young. But, okay, that happens. You do that because you love the sport. But then, yeah, everything needs to be transparent and it needs to be safe and with the judging.

1:59:02You need to be compensated. Yeah, it needs to be money-wise and with the judging. And everything just needs to be right because what we do is out of this world. Yes. And it's not just kickboxing. It's boxing. It's MMA. That's what we do. And it's the reason why it's so exciting. It's part of the reason why it's so exciting is we know how dangerous it is. And that's why I feel like it has to be fair and it needs to be compensated the right way. Yeah. So everybody's like, oh, he's making so much money. Okay, but he can't do that until he's 65 or whatever. So, yeah. Yeah. There's such a small window, which is one of the things that's so extraordinary about your career, that you've managed to stay on top for so long.

1:59:47Because generally when we look at world-class fighters, there's a rule that a lot of experts supposedly have said is that it's about nine years. We can only really compete in your prime for nine years. You've shown yourself to be an exception to that rule because you've been competing in your prime for a lot longer than that. Yeah, 12. Yeah, and you're not dropping off at all. And you weren't dropping off. You were still dominating kickboxing when you decided to step away. So it's like even though you are an outlier and that you've been able to extend it longer than anybody, it's still there's a window.

2:00:26You're not going to be able to do this when you're 50. You're not going to be able to do this when you're 60. It's like you have a small window where you can compete. And it's the people are paying to see you. They're not paying to see the promoter. They're not paying to see anything else. They're not paying to hear the commentators. They're paying to see the fighters perform at the very highest level of the most exciting sport on earth. But that's why I'm saying this because it's not as much for me anymore because I'm close to being finished. Right. You know, like we said, I'm in the winter of my career, but it's for the next generation.

2:01:04Yes. The next generation should be excited to get into combat sports and feel like, hey, I want to do this because I can. And it is fair. It is transparent. And I'm fighting, but I can make a very good living out of this. And I could build generational wealth with it. Well, that's what's really good about this MVP-PFL merger and having a bunch of hype on that. The more competition, the better. 100%. The more eyes on the sport, the more people watch the sport, the more money will be in the sport, and then the more the fighters will have options for who to fight for. Yeah, and I think that's the best thing, like you just said, like options.

2:01:46Yeah, no, it's phenomenal. If you have options, that's the best thing ever, right? Yeah. Like, hey, we got this, we got that. And it's not that you got to, like, play them out against each other, but still, it is a good thing because if you just have one option, it's like, hey, take it or leave it. Exactly. This is what it is. And have you got like, ah, the other guy's saying this, so let me go there. Reality is we could use one more, you know, not just MVP, but also another. I wish one was doing better, you know, if one was doing better and they were a viable option as well. Because I know some guys did go over there with great success, like Mighty Mouse went over there with great success.

2:02:21We need more. We need more options for fighters. And, you know, it's unusual in that in boxing, for instance, what's really important is the name of the fighters. That's what's important. If Dimitri Bival is fighting, people are going to see. They don't give a fuck who the promoter is. They want to see Bival fight. If it's Artur Betterbeev, they want to see him fight. That's all everybody gives a shit about. In MMA, it's UFC. And the exception to that was, of course, this last MVP card where Ronda Rousey fought. So everybody's like, oh, my gosh, she's a legend. She's fighting. And Francis Ngannou was on the card.

2:02:57So a lot of eyeballs got on that. So we need more of that. And more of that is good for everybody. And just like build, like we just talked about, build stories around those people. Yes. Who are those people next to being fighters? Okay, they're incredibly amazing at what they do in the ring or in the octagon or whatever. Okay, but who is the person behind? Right, right. Okay, oh, he's a father. Oh, really? He has two guys. I never knew. Oh, he likes to play chess. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that gives them so much more depth. And I also believe that that makes them more human. Yes, for sure. Seeing their family, seeing them interact with their kids.

2:03:39So everybody gets closer to, oh, wow, this guy could be my neighbor. Right. Because he also has kids. Oh, he brings his kids to school and whatever. You're invested in him. You like him. You want him to win. A hundred percent. I mean, that's a big part of it. And that's something that they need to do. And I think you're right about glory. They'd really never did that that was not really a part of the glory promotion. No They're just like put up fights put the best for the best and this is it for me I don't care. Yeah, yeah, I love it. I'm a giant glory fan man Every time there's a card I can't wait but I watch it and people like what are you watching?

2:04:14I'm like glory's on like fuck is glory heard about that It's like even my friends in MMA don't don't understand no Wow The real, the people that, the trainers and everybody, they, a lot of times they get like the glory fighters in to, to prepare their fighters to, to get into UFC. Yeah. Yeah. For big fights or whatever, because like, Hey, they know that their, their standup is, you know, on a level. Elite. I mean, and like I said, one FC has a lot of elite fighters. They're, they're, they're, especially at the lighter weight classes. There's a lot of real Jonathan Haggerty. He, he just beat Yuki Yosa, who's another guy, this guy from Japan is a Kyokushin guy.

2:04:52who fucks up people's legs. He's really good. And then there's this guy from Dagestan who might be the best striker alive. Azadullah Imam Ghazalev. This dude, he's really tall and he fights at 135 pounds and he's fucking nasty, man. He's so technical, undefeated, and he's from Dagestan. There's so many savages that are coming out of Dagestan. Just straight up killers, man. There's a dude who just won in the PFL, Magomedov, who just won in the PFL this past weekend. He fights like Imam Gazaleev. Real similar. Both guys from Dagestan. Similar styles, man. I love it. Question mark kicks and elite stabbing front kicks and just real slick stand-up.

2:05:35But in 1FC, they're having these guys fighting. It's really big in Asia, but it just has not caught on in America. I think that's also where the problem is, I think, with them, but also with Glory. they're just like pouring in money, pouring in money. And at a certain moment it's like, I also understand, like the one that's investing into like, how much money am I going to need to pour in this before it's going to do something? You know, they asked me to be, they asked me to be a part of that at one point in time. They wanted me to be like the Dana White of glory. I'm like, I don't have that kind of time.

2:06:12I don't have that kind of time. Exactly. Because if you were going to say, I don't have that type of money, I'm going to look at you like, come on. It's the time. It would be the time. You're so busy. You're so cool. I know how hard Dana works. Dana works all day, every day. That guy's always doing something. He's always got deals going. He's always on the phone. He's always meetings and headaches and canceled fights and this and that, and trying to make things happen and promotions and press conferences. They want to change. I would never half-ass something like that. You can't do that. To be a promoter is a full-time fucking job.

2:06:46Yeah, you got to go in there. And, you know, Dana set the bar very, very high, and he's the best ever, I think. I think he's the greatest promoter of all time. And for me to do that, like, I couldn't. There's no way. No, that's why it's so cool that he jumps into boxing now. Yeah. That he's going to give that. Yeah, very exciting. Try and, yeah. Well, I mean, people are, you know, always nervous when a new guy steps into sport, but I think it's only better for boxing. Especially with his reputation. Yeah. It's only, yeah, with money. and the amount of money they're throwing at the boxers. The MMA guys are like, hey, what the fuck?

2:07:22Where's that money for us? They still need to build up. It's all good for everybody. The more money there is in the sport, the more attention, the more excitement. It's better for everybody. Got a Sam's Cafe pizza order up. You know the best part about this spicy Italian sausage? I voted for this topping. Yeah, just another perk of being a member. Come join us. Sam's Club. Hello. Look what TJ Maxx dragged in. The Devil Wears Prada 2 is now streaming on Disney Plus and Hulu. We are digital. We are downloadable. We are streamable. The fashion event of the year is certified fresh. Pull yourself together.

2:08:02We have work to do. Critics say it's smart and witty and the perfect sequel. That's all. Get runway ready for The Devil Wears Prada 2 on Disney Plus and Hulu. Rated PG-13. How cool would that be? If there would be a world where MMA fighters, UFC fighters, would also be able to get into Zufa and like, hey, you're a good boxer. We see, like, maybe there's something. It's possible that they would do that, but right now they're not concentrating on that. They first need to position themselves as, but, like, for the future. It would be, but then if you've got a big star, like, say if you take a guy like Max Holloway or someone like that, and he decides he wants to box for a while, that means he's not going to be able to fight an MMA fight.

2:08:48So that would cut off their own access to him as an MMA fighter, and he's a huge star. Yeah, but maybe then he attracts different eyeballs. Yeah, but to do it right, you've got to do it kind of like when Conor did it with Floyd. He took a whole year off, and he was just boxing. He really, really concentrated on that. You can't go back into MMA again because then— It kind of messed him up. It kind of messed him up going back into MMA again. He didn't have the same momentum. It wasn't the same amount of training. Training lost with grappling and especially with kickboxing. You're only doing boxing?

2:09:25That training lost. You have to recalibrate your whole practice forever. It was just excitement. It was just my excitement. Put it out there. Listen, for some guys, it might be a good option. And for some guys, especially after knee injuries, where boxing is not as hard on the knees, You know you could say that especially when it comes to grappling and leg kicks Especially like those guys that throw those sidekicks to the knee. Oh my god those calf kicks. Oh, I know crazy Oh my god crazy. Oh, it's right. But they also after that after we they saw that within UFC with an MMA the kickboxing else is not trying to do that Isn't it nuts that it took forever for the calf kick to be a potent weapon like that?

2:10:09It's so dangerous It's also dangerous because if you hit the shin, it's like, oh, it's the last kick you throw. Yeah. But if you do it right. Yeah, if you do it right, like Alex Pereira destroys people's legs, destroys them. I don't even know how. It looks like he kicks him with the foot, with the side. It's not even really like a low kick or whatever. It's weird. He does it weird, and he does it with no tell. No tell. No switching of the hips at all. He just throws the leg out there, and it only takes a couple. Yeah. There's a couple, and then your leg's fucked, and then you see a guy switch his dances.

2:10:43Yeah, then it's over. You see him moving funny. Then it's over. That kid that I was talking about in Japan, Yuki Yosa, he's phenomenal at that, man. His calf kicks are insane. He's just, in every exchange, every exchange, he's kicking the calves. Inside and outside. Kyokushin guy. Yeah. So it's just all just hard style inside, outside, inside, outside. What is your opinion on that? because me and my trainer, we were debating the calf kick because next to it being super effective, it's also a long, long-term injury when you get put out by calf kicks. Yeah. Because that injury stays there for quite a while.

2:11:22Oh, yeah. It's brutal. It's brutal. So do you think it's a thing that should stay or do you think that— 100%. It's effective. I mean, it's really— Listen, if you can knee bar a guy, you can heel hook a guy, you can rip his knee apart, you've got to be able to calf kick. You know, it's a weapon. To take away that weapon when we know how effective it is, you've got guys who are always used to standing heavy on that front leg. Now all of a sudden they can't do that anymore. Like Conor, perfect example. In the window between Conor taking time off, fighting Floyd Mayweather, fighting Khabib and then getting back in MMA.

2:12:01Then the calf kick came along. He never fought with... He got destroyed. There was no calf kicks before. Dustin Poirier destroyed his leg. Yeah. In that first round, by the time the second round was rolling around in their second fight, he was already wobbling on that front leg. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. Crazy that it took so long for that one technique. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the thing you see, and like, hey, that's effective. And everybody started doing it. But again, dangerous. Like you said, you go... I mean, this is how Chris Weidman broke his leg. Yeah. You know, he threw a really hard low kick and he caught the knee.

2:12:32He caught the shin right below the knee and snapped his leg in half. If it gets checked and you've hit it the wrong way, especially if you hit it the low part of yours and the high part of his where it's thick and dense. Yeah, that's the hardest part. Yeah. But it's so effective. It has to stay. The thing that bothers me more than that is. Okay, I'm happy I, like, leave the legs. The side kicks to the knee bother me more. Ooh, yeah. Did you ever see Khalil Roundtree and Modestus Bokaskis? You ever see that? Oh, it's the worst one of all time. You see the leg like? It turned sideways. He threw a side kick, caught him on the front leg, and just turned his whole leg sideways.

2:13:10And he screamed and the fight was over. You rip everything apart. Oh, yeah, he had surgery. Had to have surgery after the fight. His leg was destroyed. When John Jones fought Tiago Santos, I think it was Tiago Santos? I think it was. Yeah, Tiago Santos. He blew out both his legs. He had to have knee surgery on both legs after the fight. Both legs. That's crazy. Crazy. Because just throwing those oblique kicks and the side kick to the knee. Yeah. Blew out both his knees. Yeah, that's a kick I don't like. When Ian Gary fought Shavkat, Shavkat Rokhmanoff, who's a top welterweight guy, one of the top contenders, he hit him with an oblique kick in his left knee, and his knee's been fucked ever since.

2:13:50Yeah. And he had to have surgery, had a second surgery, and he's still out. Yeah. Yeah. That's what bothers me about that is that you might not ever recover. If your knee gets ripped to shreds, your meniscus gets torn apart, your ACL, MCL gets blown out. So this is Khalil Raunchy. Watch this. Oh. Oh. Oh, yeah. Watch it from this angle. Look at how. Oh, man. It screams. Horrible. Horrible. I wonder about that one. Look at that. Oh, look. Because I feel like that one maybe is too much. Yeah. Because it's just like. It's just career. A career ending kicks. A career ender. Yeah. I mean, if we're. I don't know.

2:14:32I'm torn. Because on one hand, it's like it doesn't happen that often. And you should be able to defend against it. And knowing it exists, you have to be able to defend against it. But the thing is, one kick could change. And you're out for a year. Like we said, a fighter really only has X amount of years to compete. And one whole year gone from one kick is kind of crazy. By the way, it's pretty extraordinary how you do that, how you know all those names and fights from, I don't know, how long ago, and you're just like. Yeah, but I don't remember a lot of other things. My memory is really good but also kind of unreliable with some things.

2:15:11It's just focused on. It's focused on the things I care about, which a lot of it is combat sports. But the knee one, that's the only one that really bothers me. That and, I think, knees to the head to a grounded opponent. No, that's not. No. You don't think they should be able to do that? No. I don't think you should be able to turn them up. Even stomp on somebody's head? But they're not allowed to do that anymore. You can't stomp. But you can in Ryzen. Ryzen allows those guys to stomp. Yeah, like back in the day, they did that. Yep. They used to be able to stomp and soccer kick. But think when a guy shoots on your legs and just curls up in a fetal position, it just holds on?

2:15:46You shouldn't be able to do that. You should be able to knee that guy in the head. because he doesn't have to hold on to that. If your knee is free and he can knee you in the face, you should have to adjust. It's too legitimate of a technique. It's hard. If somebody's on the ground, they're like, dish. The problem also is the cage versus the ring because in a ring, soccer kicks make more sense and knees to the head make more sense because you can move around and you can get away from it because you can go under the rope. If a knee's coming to your head, there's movement. whereas the cage you're trapped right there.

2:16:21I think that's another element of the fight that's an unnecessary element. I think maybe even what karate combat's doing might be the best way to do it. Yeah, what is it? It's like a bowl. It looks nice. I think that might be the best way to do it. The only problem with that is when you get to the edge, you're stumbling because you're... It's like half and you fall over it. But learn how to adjust to that. And that's better than a cage. Because a cage is just a fucking physical wall. So the thing about the ramp, the bowl, that shit doesn't help you get up at all. No. Like if somebody takes you down against that, that doesn't help you.

2:17:04Where a wall fucking helps you. And there's guys that are doing workouts now where they put their back up against a wall and they're doing kettlebell get-ups. Just to feel like. Yes. They're lifting up heavy kettlebells and they're doing it in stages, getting up from the ground just to emulate that position. But it's an element. Yeah, but that's why I feel like everything has, the ring has certain things. Because I feel like if you do MMA in a ring and somebody shoots or whatever, then maybe they go through the ropes and shoot. That's true too, right? So that's dangerous. Well, you see with boxing.

2:17:39Like when Bernard Hopkins fought Joe Smith Jr. and he went through the ropes and fell and landed on his head. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, so that's how the fight ended. It's like there's there's but I think that was just shitty planning I think they should have pads around the ring and they should you know in case someone fall You shouldn't just hope they don't fall have some or have a larger apron to yeah That's you could you could fix a lot with a much larger apron where the guy falls out. There's something around the edge of the ring But I think a cage the problem is in most people's eyes UFC equals cage.

2:18:10Like you fight in a cage. And the mindset of it is pretty cool. Yeah. Because you get locked up. Click. Yeah, exactly. You put that bar down. Exactly. You lock that cage in place. You're not going nowhere. Yeah. There's something to be said for that. Yeah. So it has something. But I hear what you're saying. But like we just talked about, everything has its pros and its cons. Everything has its pros and its cons. And everything is exciting in its own way. Like boxing on its own. Like there's elements of boxing that you would not see if they were allowed to do leg kicks and elbows and all that. So there's something beautiful about just pure elite boxing.

2:18:49Yeah, 100%. And there's something pure about elite kickboxing. And then there's something pure about elite Muay Thai. And then there's something pure about MMA, about watching it all together. 100%. And jiu-jitsu as well. See, that's the other thing. The UFC is doing UFC Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So they have these big UFC jiu-jitsu matches. Oh, really? Yeah, so like kickboxing. Yeah, let's try. It's right there. It's right there, guys. I keep sending Dana White fights. I send him fights because I'm trying to get him to do this. I'm like, you should get involved. I think he's too busy. Yeah. He's too busy.

2:19:22He's also got that slap fight shit, so he's doing that. Yeah, that's what's so crazy. Like, fuck off. We'll never get into this. Fuck off again. It's fun to watch, but it's like, oh, my God. It's fun. It's like, well, I just stand there and just take a punch. I just like try to move around and just slip and slide. You know, you just stand there. You have to stand there with your hands behind your back holding onto a thing. Just take it on the face like, fuck that. Yeah, you're a pretty big animal if you do that. That's why for me, now experiencing boxing, I can really genuinely say that I see boxing as an art.

2:19:58Oh, for sure. And kickboxing has been my life. It's brought me everything. So it's so much fun, but it's more intense. It's more brutal, and it's quick. It's like the pace is so fast, and the championship fights were just five rounds. So if you lose one round, you're like, oh. And now, like I said, it's an art. You have 12 rounds. And I saw the Bivo-Berebier fight, and then for the first so many rounds, Berebier was so much better. and then later in the round and then Bivol still got the win like wow how cool is that well if you look at the fight you think oh this is not going to go well and then he adjusts and it changes so it's like I said I really feel like boxing is so much of an art and you have 12 rounds to paint your masterpiece yes and if you appreciate that art form if you really understand it and appreciate it it's beautiful to watch like it's beautiful to watch like Floyd when he was in his prime.

2:21:03100%. Barely would get hit. And Floyd, unlike anybody else, was standing right in front of everybody. He was barely getting hit. He was standing right there. He wasn't running away and moving around. He was right in front of guys that couldn't hit him. Extraordinary. And that's what I also liked or still like about Canelo because after that fight, you saw the whole transition Canelo made. And he took, I think, I truly believe that he took so much from that fight with Mayweather because then he started applying it himself. Unquestionably. And like, pop, pop, pop, he's missing it. Oh, I love that.

2:21:38Yes, unquestionably. Yeah, his head movement got much better after that fight. I mean, that's the thing that happens when you fight the elite. You get—Daniel Cormier always says you get the rub. Like, you fight an elite guy, win, lose, or draw, you get the rub. Some of it rubs off on you. Yeah, exactly. So that's why I'm excited to see you fight again, too. I'm so excited to compete again. but let's see who it's going to be. Well, let's hope this podcast gets the wheels turning. We planted some seeds. Yeah, maybe His Excellency will hear this and he'll decide that it's time to go. I'll call you right after your joke.

2:22:16It happened, thanks. We did it. That would make me very happy if we somehow or another motivated them to get back to the negotiation table. But just let's make an agreement now. Let's just make sure you're going to be there then. What was the last conversation you guys had about it? I think a week ago, a week and a half ago. It was more of a general conversation. Hey, we're looking at what's next. And what did you say to them? Did you say, rematch? Of course. And what did they say? Like, yeah, but you need two parties for that. I said, I know. Make it happen. Yeah, you got to roll up to Usyk's house with the Brinks truck.

2:23:02Just back that thing up. Beep, beep, beep. Exactly. Get the armed guards, open the door, show them all the gold. That's maybe— And then my name and my face on it. Okay. Put it in first. I think that's the fight, and I hope you get it. I really do. But either way, your performance was extraordinary, and you've had a fucking incredible career, man. I appreciate it. You should be proud. Yeah, I am super thankful. Incredible career in kickboxing, greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all time, for sure. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. And it's not just for me being here and sitting here now because I've been seeing you and hearing you talk about it for years already.

2:23:46So, like I said, it really, really, really means the world coming from you because you're an expert. You look at everything. You look at everything. You see everything. The different organizations show you know where to place certain guys from history and from now. So, it means the world. Thank you so much. My pleasure, brother. It's an honor. An honor to have you here. And again, thank you so much again for being here. So, it's been a while, but we're back. Well, I had to reach out after the fight. I was like, oh, my God, we got to do this. We got to talk. I was like holy shit man I reached out immediately I was like how the fuck you had it yeah I saw the episode you guys did about it you were talking about it I was like oh my god I know it was incredible but listen brother congratulations on everything and I really really really hope you get that rematch good seeing you brother good seeing you too sir thank you very much thank you everybody bye

2:24:54We'll see you next time.