1000: Facing Father Figure's Fatality and Faults | Feedback Friday

22:19So my question there is, how are you taking care of yourself outside of work? I don't want to make any assumptions, but if you're a pastry chef, are you getting high on your own supply all the time? Is that taking a toll on your body? Are you exercising? Are you doing yoga a few times a week? You're keeping your body limber. You're working out the kinks you get from being on your feet all day. Do you have any kind of fitness routine? Are you drinking enough water? Or are you surviving on, I don't know, what is the cream they put inside like eclairs, Gabriel? I don't know why I'm asking. You're asking the wrong person.

22:47You will definitely not know that. I don't know what you're talking about. What's an eclair? I don't even. Are you surviving on mascarpone or whatever? Are you eating well? like you're a pastry chef you are a bunt cake badass there might be more sugar in your diet than you need that's what i'm trying to say are you early anthony bourdaining it every night pounding advil during your shift and getting hammered until 4 a.m and sleeping until 2 p.m point is if you're not recovering from the hours of standing and lifting and moving and bending over to get stuff out of the oven i'm sure the pain and exhaustion and hopelessness get worse you have to take care of your body to make this career sustainable you need time that is just about you when so much of your life is about other people.

23:28And that's also how you can stay connected to your calling when things get tough. Yes, I totally agree. The only thing I would add is that you are clearly a very, very ambitious person and you have been driven by achievements and rewards from a young age. And that can often lead to a crisis later in life. I do wonder if what you're confronting now is whether you're in this profession for the accomplishments, you know, these amazing awards, degrees, honors, jobs, appointments, or if you're in it for the work itself, the food, the joy of creating the process. The reality is, and I think you're already learning this, extrinsic rewards can never satisfy us for very long.

24:04They're fun, they're gratifying, they can even be very meaningful sometimes, and that is great. But at the end of the day, they really are more about ego and confirmation and practical concerns like money or opportunities or whatever, than they are about true fulfillment. At some point, the dopamine hit from those achievements dies down. And what you're left with is just what you're doing, you know, in that moment, this dish, this role, this shift, whatever it is. And if you don't have a strong connection with the process, then I think it can sometimes feel like everything is falling apart. That's when the nihilism and the depression sets in the existential crisis, right?

24:41I have been there myself many times, and I've gone through some periods of true crisis with my writing, especially where I had to ask myself, you know, like, am I doing this because I want to be celebrated or highly compensated? Or am I doing this because I actually have something to say because I genuinely enjoy the process of writing. And I got to tell you, there were periods where I really did not know the answer to that. And that was a little terrifying. But in time, I have come back to this place of no, I am doing this because I genuinely enjoy it. It also makes me miserable, drives me up the wall sometimes, but I genuinely enjoy it.

25:15And yeah, I do want to achieve. And yes, I do want to be recognized. And I would love to make a lot of money from this. But that's not why I'm doing it. And I know that because if I never got those things, I would probably still be sitting around making things up about people who do not exist, which I'm not even bragging about that. It's a ridiculous way to spend one's life writing screenplays or novels or whatever. But that's the truth for me. So I really try to stay connected to the intrinsic rewards, the process and the love that I feel mostly for what I do, which is ultimately I think that's all we're entitled to.

25:47For sure. And look, without that, none of the external rewards ever come. And that's my experience anyway. Yes, that is so true. So when you say that you feel drained, that you feel unmotivated, there's probably a lot going on in there. It might be just the restaurant you're currently working for. It might be the people you're surrounded by these days, but it could also be your sleep, your exercise routine, what else is going on in your life. There are so many variables here, but the big theme of your letter is how driven you've been by achievement and also interestingly by adversity. Like you said, you've always dealt with people doubting you and questioning your talent and you use that to push yourself to do badass things as you put it.

26:25So it sounds like nothing stops you. You use it all to achieve. But when these difficult feelings come up, my question is, do you make room for them? Do you sit with them? Do you find ways to process them? Or have you always just channeled them into doing the next thing, into achieving something else, and woven them into this narrative of ambition and unstoppability? If so, that could also contribute to the feeling of being drained and being unmotivated, which does sound a lot like a depression. And one major antidote to depression, as we know, not the only one, but an important one. Drugs. Drugs.

26:59That's the answer. You need to be doing a lot more cocaine. Eclairs. Sure. Rail those lines off of an eclair on your shit. I don't know. Not going to work. No. Trust me. The antidote is to have a relationship with yourself that allows for all of these feelings to really let them in and see what they're trying to tell you about how you need to take care of yourself, about how you work, why you work, about the people you're surrounded by, really about your relationship with this beautiful calling of yours, rather than stuffing them down or just channeling them into the next pound cake. Well, she is a pound cake prodigy, Gabe.

27:32So it makes sense that she copes that way. But I totally agree. So no, I don't think that resolving this is just about improving your attitude or whatever. Even framing this as a question of attitude, that might be part of what Habe was getting at. A tendency you might have to sort of skate on the surface of your feelings a little bit and not give them the airtime that they deserve. I also want you to check out the article in Deep Dive we did on how to stick with your purpose when it starts to suck. That was episode 205, which is really funny. though, that this is episode 1000. That was 795 episodes ago, but it's still relevant.

28:05Somehow that number sounds bigger than 1000. 1000 is just like almost too big. It's my camera, wrap my mind right in it. We'll link to those in the show notes. I think there'll be great reads slash listens for you right now. So don't let this crisis throw you too much. I would think of it more like an opportunity to remember why you love this career, reprioritize the intrinsic stuff, to nurture that relationship with food and creating that called you to this field in the first place. that's what's gonna sustain you when your job gets tough. So hang in there, you wafer wunderkind. We're rooting for you.

28:36You know, this reminds me of podcasting. I mean, because that's the only creative thing that I do, actually. Podcasting was so much more fun. Look, I love podcasting. It's fun. I'm not gonna stop anytime soon. But I have all these days where I'm like, what about this? What about this business thing? We gotta open up a new line of revenue. Podcasting was so much more carefree fun, I should say, when there were no statistics. Like early in the game, the first few years I did this, there was no real way to measure your podcast. Like there was Apple rank stuff, but like it was kind of, it didn't really exist in the way that it does now.

29:09Spotify didn't have a chart. No other apps had charts. Even your backend statistics, it would be like, you use two terabytes of data and you'd be like, okay, cool. It was a simpler time. Yeah. It wasn't like 40 ,000 people are listening to this. 20 ,000 people are listening to this. You're just like, I have no idea how many people are listening, but I'm getting emails and I'm doing it. It's fun. It's fine. That's all it was. And so that was just so much more interesting at the time. It was new. Now, don't get me wrong. I still love it, but it's a business now. It's really a job for a lot of people involved in this and on some days more than others.

29:43And I didn't win a Jaime Beard Award and I'm never going to win one of those for podcasting because it's a food thing. Also, can we visit this person, Gabriel? I want to like try some of this food. I would strongly consider breaking my veganism for her pastries. Yeah. She sounds next level good. Yeah. I mean, after all, how often do you get to eat food cooked by a fudge phenom? Not every day. Have we outdone ourselves? I mean, the alliteration on this episode is out of control. Out of control. Alliteration. You're welcome. Can't alliterate that word. Anyway, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

30:16Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If your homeschooling mom ruined your future prospects, you cheated on your wife and got a lesbian couple pregnant. I mean, it was just one person, but you know what I mean. Or you work for a company that's actually a low-key cult run by a narcissistic, attention-hungry Lydia. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 71-year-old retired professional, and I was recently on an adult website on my laptop when a pop-up took over my whole screen and had audio giving me specific instructions to not shut down the computer and call a phone number from Microsoft.

31:00Oh no. It shocked me. I called the number and the person claimed to be from Microsoft and had an employee ID number. They had me do some analysis and the analysis claimed that my bank account at Chase had been compromised and that there had been attempts to buy child pornography. Of course, they brought in the possibility of federal crimes, etc. I was transferred to a supposedly secure Chase fraud line and talked to someone who sounded so legitimate and very friendly, claiming severe breach, and I believed him. He had me clear out my Chase checking account, go to various stores buying gift cards, and then give him the access codes.

31:37Worst of all, since my Coinbase and Venmo accounts were associated with the Chase account, he had me transfer Bitcoin to an unknown account. All this was under the guise that it was going into a new account for me. I ultimately lost about$7 ,000 in cash and$40 ,000 in Bitcoin. Oh, that is brutal. I am so sorry, man. Wow. I did report it to the FBI and local sheriff, but likely nothing will come of that. I'm well off financially, so this doesn't affect my lifestyle, but I cannot believe I did this. Yeah. I'm quite competent and experienced, and looking back, there were dozens of clues that this was a scam, but for some reason, I didn't see them.

32:19This has caused me severe depression, not only about the loss of money, but about the complete stupidity of what I fell for. I've lost sleep and can't get it out of my mind. I know there's nothing I can do. I'm also too ashamed to discuss it with any friends. How do I get over this? How do I stop constantly replaying it and beating myself up for it? signed an unwitting mark suffering in the dark. Oh man, well, I'm really sorry this happened to you. It must be hard to write something like this because you have to put all of the dumb things in a row. And when you do it that way, you're like, how did I fall for this, right?

32:51But when it happens and it's all strung out and you're stressed out and it takes days of time, getting scammed, it sucks. It's infuriating, it's embarrassing. It can be debilitating financially, emotionally. So yeah, I totally get why you're feeling this way. I've been scammed before. Even recently, look, I know a lot about scams. There was a place that wanted to pay me for a speaking gig, and it was virtual, and I was like, okay. They're like, yeah, it's gonna be on Facebook Live. I'm like, okay, fine. They're like, log into Facebook. They didn't send me a link. I logged into Facebook on my own, and they're like, install this plugin on Facebook, and it was literally an approved Facebook page plugin, like an approved one that you can install on your Facebook page that does live streaming, supposedly.

33:36And I was like, okay, this is weird, but not totally off base. Like I've had to install things before to give talks like, oh, we use this thing. You got to use this online software. This later turned out to be a flaw in Facebook security on specific group pages. And I installed a malicious plugin on a Facebook account. They didn't get my login or anything. They just had a plugin that allowed them to manage this. And it was absolutely nuts. I didn't have to give anybody access or anything. Luckily, I was able to hamstring the scammers before they could do really any damage. but they did run a bunch of really clickbaity ads at their own expense for like COVID conspiracy theories in Italian and I think Slovak.

34:14It was very weird. Even Facebook security, my wife's cousin works there. He was like, oh, I can't really fix this because I don't understand how they got in in the first place. The point here is this can really happen to anyone, even savvy and experienced people. You are not alone. Now, if they had come to me and I wasn't somebody who gave paid talks all the time, I probably would have been like, oh, this is a little weird. But for somebody who does paid talks all the time, multiple times per week, this just was not that weird. And also, I didn't want to be racist. I was like, it's so weird that this person sounds like, you know, they're calling me from another country.

34:49Because this is a live call, too, in addition to emails. And I was like, oh, I'm just being racist. And I was like, oh, no, this actually was a scam center in freaking Pakistan. So my dad, he got scammed recently. It was a couple years ago, but he had a printer problem. And he Googled HP printer support. And the first result in Google was an Indian scam center. And Google obviously doesn't give a crap about this. So they didn't remove the results. I'm sure they've gotten reports a zillion times. They installed some software on my dad's computer that was scanning things. And I doubt they found much of anything because while it was running, my dad just panicked and he ripped the computer plug out of the wall.

35:26And he called me and he's like, wait, I think I'm being scammed. And he felt really embarrassed. You know, he took the computer to the Apple store. They wiped remote access. They had installed like a remote access thing so that probably they could key log his banking stuff. We all we changed all of our passwords. You know, it was so fast. They probably didn't even find anything. That turned out well for him. Well done. Luckily, he ripped the computer plug out of the wall and took it to the store and wasn't like, oh, I don't want to tell anyone. So the first thing you need to do is just have a little more compassion for yourself.

35:57These scammers found you in a moment of vulnerability. I mean, I would say they found you with your you know what in your hands and they literally did. I was going to say they found you with your pants. They got you with your pants down, literally. But, you know, and they're good at what they do. These are not kids hanging out, scamming people. This is professional organized crime with literally millions of victims. These guys get thousands of reps in every week. These are full time employees with a handbook, etc. You didn't know enough about these scams or you were so shaken up. You were a perfect victim.

36:29And like I said, I get these scam emails every single day. A lot of them are transparent. I'm on the pulse of this and I still got scammed back then when it was a new scam with the Facebook pages. Now they're still running it. I don't know how they do it. I think that Facebook still hasn't blocked this malicious plugin possibly or they just keep making new ones. You just didn't know. Now you know it'll never happen again. But this narrative you have, I'm competent. I'm experienced. I should have listened to the signs. I'm an idiot. There's something wrong with me. That's all normal. But you're just, you're not doing yourself any favors here.

36:58The more accurate narrative is, I'm competent, I'm experienced, and this still happened to me, which means that these scams must be pretty good if even somebody like me can be vulnerable to them. But look, this process you're going through of looking back and going like, damn, there were dozens of signs that this was BS and I didn't pay attention to them. I know that that's painful, but that's actually an important part of recovering from something like this. because when you take stock of those red flags in retrospect, what you're doing is you are showing yourself that you really were alert to those signs.

37:29You weren't completely asleep at the wheel. You just didn't listen to your intuition, but it was working. It was online, and that hurts, but it's actually reassuring. So rather than doing the forensics to beat yourself up, I'd do them more in the spirit of appreciating that there was a part of you that knew something wasn't right. And in the future, if you ever hear that voice again, you're gonna listen to it because you know that it's actually there to protect you. I think it's also interesting that you're too ashamed to discuss it with your friends. I totally get that. I really do. But if you listen to the show a bunch, then you know that that shame will also make it harder for you to process what happened and start to let go of it.

38:05Do not get me wrong. You are well within your rights to never talk about this with anyone if you don't want to. Except for the few hundred thousand people listening right now. I was going to say, which is why I'm glad you reached out to us. You know, being alone in something like this can be very isolating. Now, hundreds of thousands of people know about it. They don't know your name. So I get it. That's right. James Beard in Madison, Wisconsin. Your secret's safe with us. But it's also a lot more embarrassing to you than it would be to anyone else. So if you have a close friend or two who would be understanding, maybe one day you take a chance and open up about this.

38:35I mean, I don't know. I just have a feeling, Jordan, that telling somebody this story would be very liberating for him. Agreed. Also, you might be doing that person a huge favor if they ever find themselves targeted by a similar scam. Good point. You know, I'm not sure what your friend's preferences are vis-a-vis the naked people on the old internet. But these scammers find victims in all sorts of ways. Not just when they're having some me time on a website with 37 pop-up ads. So a lot of good might come from this conversation. So time to forgive yourself, man. And if you can't forgive yourself, then allow your mind to keep replaying this until it gets tired.

39:08Rather than fighting the ruminating, just accept it. Notice it. A little post-scam meditation for you. but the real lesson of this story is, listen to your gut. It's not perfect by any means but it's almost always doing something important and it's often right. Gavin DeBecker put it best in his book, The Gift of Fear. Intuition is always right in at least two important ways. It is always in response to something and it always has your best interest at heart. And if you wanna learn more about listening to your gut and using your fear, I highly recommend listening to my interview with him. That was episode 329 and 330.

39:41We'll link to those in the show notes for you. So go wash your hands, not just literally, but metaphorically of all the shame associated with falling for a scam and go get an ad blocker. That goes for the rest of you too. I recommend Ublock Origin. There's a plugin that kills most internet ads and pop-ups. Oh, good rec. Wait, would an ad blocker stop a scammer like this? Oh yeah, so this might be a little unclear. So that was not, of course, actually a message from Microsoft and it was not a system message. It was supposed to, it was probably disguised as a system message in Windows. They just use the same graphics.

40:15This is a pop-up ad on a shady porn site. I see. And it popped up and said, like, you have a virus. And he thought, oh my God, my system's telling me I have a virus. No, the advertiser was telling you you have a virus. You click on it. It takes you to the site and gives you the phone number or whatever it is. Or there's no site to be clicked on. It just gives you the number. You call thinking this is a computer message. And the porn site doesn't care because they probably get like$5 a click or something like that, right? So they just don't care. And yes, so that ad would never show up if you block or ad block pro or whatever ad block plus, I think it's called is installed because it would block that in the first place.

40:52So yeah, a lot of scammers use fake pop-ups to get victims. And especially if you're on a crappy website, it'll have something like that. I recommend using reputable porn websites myself. That's the real wreck right there. That's the real wreck right there. Yes. The real wreck is always in the comments. All right. Now get your hands off your pud and put those hairy palms to work by taking advantage of the crazy good deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our sponsors.

41:25All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place, jordanharbinger.com slash deals, or you can email me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. If you're super lazy or you can't find a sponsor, I will happily dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm an advertising creative director, and 30 years ago, I teamed up with an art director. We worked at several agencies together, each time advancing our careers until we eventually opened a satellite office with a former client who became our president.

42:01We built the business into a success over several years, and our president ended up purchasing it. Fast forward 24 years, and we just shut down the agency. It was a great run. I know I'll look back on it with pride, and I'm thankful to have worked with so many special people along the way. Unfortunately, the ending wasn't so special for me. When our president shut the agency down, I was given two-month severance with a hug, some tears, and a good look. Oh man, that is not a happy ending like the guy in the previous question was aiming at. That is a tough break. I'm really sorry to hear that. But yeah, amazing.

42:36Sorry, I couldn't. Took me a second to understand what the what you were talking about. Oh, got it. Yeah, that's interesting. Do you never mind? I had questions about what sequence of events and if you got to enjoy it, but I really don't know how to talk about that. We should on our podcast. So our friend here goes on. Meanwhile, several of the clients who are still with us were transferred to another agency along with a handful of people to run the accounts. My former partner was one of them, as were two of my former employees. I was upset, but at the same time, I understand how business works.

43:07What really has me upset and disappointed is my former partner. It's been over a month now, and he hasn't reached out to see how I'm doing. Odd. Yeah, it is weird. Let's see where this goes. He goes on. We weren't just business partners. We were friends. Our kids grew up together. I was the only person he told about his wife's infidelity and his challenges with his children, and I've shared plenty of private things as well. He was very creative at times and really, really funny. Yeah, that sucks. That is not cool. My hunch is that he's embarrassed, actually, and he feels he betrayed you or is worried that you're mad at him, maybe, so he's avoiding you, which is not how you handle those things, but whatever.

43:44I suppose, yeah, like you said, let's see where this goes. Meanwhile, my two former hires who were taken along both sent me heartfelt messages telling me how much I've meant to them in their careers. Oh, that's really nice. Yeah, that's sweet. That tells me that you're a solid boss and a solid colleague. And by the way, side note, amazing how much these notes mean to people, especially at pivotal moments, eh? Totally. Highly recommend doing stuff like this. I don't just mean like digging the well thing. This is a great way to build strong relationships, but man, it just means so damn much to people.

44:13So don't sit on your good feelings, guys. Little tip from Uncle Jay over here. Carry on, Gabe. Adding to my anger is the fact that six years ago, we lost an account and the client mentioned my partner's work style and procrastination as one of the reasons. My partner had also earned the nickname The Staller by another unhappy client, and I had to talk many project managers off the ledge with their frustrations over his procrastination. That, combined with some challenges he had with co-workers, eventually put my partner on the chopping block. Our president was ready to fire him, and I told him that my partner's creative talents more than outweighed his procrastination issues.

44:48He was kept on, and I never told my partner about that conversation, as I knew it would really mess with him. He's a highly sensitive guy with paranoid tendencies, and it would rock him to know that people were talking behind his back. Interesting details. I'm not sure you did him a favor by not telling him that his procrastination almost got him fired multiple times, but okay. Let us come back to that. Yeah. Well, I'm wanting to tell him now. I bet. In my fantasy, I want him to know that I stood up for him. The least he could do is check in to see how I'm getting along. I just want to understand why he didn't have the courage or decency to reach out.

45:25If he had, I know we would still be friends with so much great history together. I've been meaning to reach out for months now, is what he's going to say, because he's freaking procrastinating. You know, Jordan, I got to say, it's so interesting that he felt this protective of this guy and so loyal to him when he had this very real pattern of procrastinating, compromising client accounts, among other flaws, apparently. Yeah, I mean, it's sweet for sure, but I really got to wonder what that dynamic was about. Come on. Yeah, totally. I mean, his partner got to be creative and funny and messy and unreliable, kind of a problem based on what he's sharing with us.

45:59And our friend here secretly smooth things over, cleaned up his messes in the background, fought for him. There's a lot more to that than just, hey, I love this guy. I wanted to help him out. You know, that is interesting. What were they each getting out of this friendship? Was our friend here afraid to lose this guy? Did he protect his partner a little too much? Did he shy away from some conversations about his work style? By the way, procrastination would drive me absolutely crazy. I would fire someone in a heartbeat. So it's like, okay, how good do they need to be at everything else? I don't know.

46:25But it also makes me wonder, does this pattern of procrastination maybe explain why he's ghosting now? Or is the ghosting a completely different thing? I think it's certainly related. The whole relationship is fascinating. So let's come back to this. On a happier note, a former client of mine just fired the agency she inherited and gave me the creative portion of her business. So I have some new work and I'm bringing along another creative who also didn't move forward with our former agency. So cool. Yeah, that's amazing, man. Congrats. I'm very happy to hear that. I think it's awesome that you're bringing along another creative who didn't move forward with your old agency.

46:58This is how you build a team, a tribe. And Gabe, I don't mean to turn this into one of Uncle Jordan's networking fables or whatever, but I can't help but notice, you know who he didn't bring along with him to his new venture? Exactly. Yeah. That's exactly right. It's so obvious how these opportunities get generated. I still haven't reached out to my old partner. I feel like he should be the one to contact me. I don't see how we can ever be friends again, but I can't get it off my mind. Am I being petty and vindictive? Should I just move on? signed, burned, spurned, and ready to discern whether it's my turn to focus on my own concerns.

47:33Wow, what a story. Well, look, I'm really sorry that your former partner is treating you this way, being ditched by somebody you were this close with, somebody you collaborated with, somebody you nurtured and protected, like I said, very painful. So I totally understand why you feel betrayed. And I don't think you're being petty and vindictive. Petty and vindictive would be, I don't know, calling up his new colleagues and telling them that he procrastinates and pisses off clients and that he's paranoid and his kids don't get along with him and his wife cheated on him. I mean, you're not doing anything like that.

48:01You're just wounded and you're working that out inside yourself as you should. So here's my honest take. This guy, he was very important to you. You guys had a meaningful relationship. You did great work together and he was very flawed. This wasn't a great partner who like had some quirks. This is a guy who based on what you shared, sounds like a hot mess. Creative, talented, funny, sure, okay, but also pretty dysfunctional. I mean, you don't earn the nickname The Staller unless your procrastination is terrible. The fact that he was almost fired for this, that tells me that it must have been pretty bad.

48:34Now, that quality doesn't mean he was necessarily a bad person. He could just be highly disorganized, bad at communicating, but coupled with the fact that he hasn't reached out to you now, it does paint a picture of a guy who might not have been the friend you thought he was, or he was that friend, but he doesn't know how to behave in a way that honors that friendship, which kind of amounts to the same thing in my view. It doesn't take away from the work you did together. It doesn't mean that you made this whole friendship up in your head. It just means there were aspects of this guy that you didn't know about or that you were maybe willfully blind to and now you're seeing them more clearly.

49:09You're coming to terms with the reality of this guy. And again, that's painful. I think that's exactly right, Jordan. You know, it's funny, he's grieving too. Interesting theme on today's episode going back to question one. How do you grieve people who are flawed? You're mourning the end of this 30-year journey, the end of this company, the end of your friendship with this guy, and just like the person in question one, you're also mourning the version of him you thought he was, or maybe the version you wanted him to be. But to go back to the idea we stumbled into earlier, how your relationship with this guy actually worked, I think there's a lot more for us to appreciate about why you protected him over the years.

49:42Sounds to me like you both kind of cramped around some of his flaws, and I do wonder why you never sat him down and said, listen, bud, you're my homie. You're my partner. I have a lot of respect for you. I love the way we work. I appreciate you. So I want to give you some feedback. This procrastination thing is becoming an issue and you need to address it because it's causing some real problems that I don't think you fully realize. You know, one of the many interesting things that this guy has shown you is that you are fiercely loyal to people you care about. And it's very clear to me that you are a super generous person.

50:14But this is also an interesting opportunity to ask, am I loyal to the right people? And what does that loyalty actually look like? What should it look like? Which qualities am I being generous with? And how are people valuing that generosity? I don't have the answers to those questions, but I would encourage you to sit with them, especially when it comes to people like this guy. I'm also very curious to know whether you had any indications along the way that he might be the sort of person who might ghost you one day. Like, looking back, did you ever get any signals that he might be careless not just with deadlines or clients, but with friends and partners?

50:47Did you ever notice that he could be a little avoidant, a little wishy-washy, kind of inconsistent? Did you feel along the way that you sometimes valued him more than he valued you? These are just a few questions you might want to ask. If I were in your shoes, I would treat this as an opportunity to check back in with yourself and see if you might sometimes justify or discount certain signs in order to remain close to somebody or just to keep things on an even keel. It's really interesting. Again, there's so many repeating themes today, going back to the Gavin DeBecker thing from earlier, this is a chance to really take stock of some potential red flags and warnings that you might have seen along the way.

51:20Yeah, that's a good point, Gabe. The downside here is that his friend and partner essentially abandoned him, and that definitely sucks. But the upside is that the loss is forcing him to reconsider this friendship and learn some things about himself. So if I were you, I would keep moving forward. I would take the right lessons away from this guy. The other big one is that while your ex-partner might have been avoidant in his own way, you might have been too when it came to giving him direct feedback about his style, his reputation. And another big one is that relationships and situations change.

51:50This is life. It's all change. And a lot of life is mourning these transitions. And that is not entirely bad. But look, I'm not saying you need to close the door to your old partner forever. If he calls you in six months or a year or whatever, and he goes, look, man, I owe you an apology. Let me explain. You could hear him out. I would do that. And if that happens, I would encourage you to tell him what it was like not hearing from him and why it didn't sit well with you. And who knows, maybe this is the fire under his ass that he needs to change his ways. I don't know. So this doesn't necessarily mean you're never going to speak to the guy again, but I do think you're going to get a lot further right now trying to figure out what this guy taught you rather than nursing a grudge or waiting for him to reach out or giving into the petty and trying to ruin his career.

52:30I honestly think that this new employer might end up calling you in six months, like, hey, this guy sucks, he procrastinates on everything. Can you take on all this work that he dropped the ball on? We were on the fence between you and him, and we obviously bet on the wrong horse. I'm sorry that you're hurting, bud, but you're also growing. And over time, this injury will, it'll settle, I promise. It'll take on new meaning, and that helps. Good luck with the new gig. It sounds like an amazing new chapter, and we're wishing you the best. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, my boyfriend and I have been together for almost five years.

53:00He's the first man I've ever truly loved. He's also the first man to show me what unconditional love is. He's a gentleman. He opens all my doors, won't let me pump my gas, cleans my car in the winter, carries all the groceries, stuff like that. He's extremely charming. My family loves him. He's super funny. And he looks amazing. He used to be a power lifter. The complete package. Almost. Yeah, enough with all the descriptions of your Prince Charming. Tell us about his chronic avoidance and his Cheeto feat. That kid, kinda. I'm glad you found an awesome guy who excites you and treats you well. That's fantastic.

53:33But that's not why you wrote into Feedback Friday. So let's get to the do's, shall we? The thing is, my boyfriend procrastinates on everything and it drives me insane. Interesting theme again. Are you dating the previous guy's old business partner? Yeah. Are you dating the staller? The staller. She's dating a staller. That's for sure. So she goes on, personal growth and therapy have been a huge part of my life. And they are something I consider non-negotiable when it comes to my partners. I've been in therapy over half my life and have learned so much about myself, which has shaped my relationships.

54:06I deserve a partner that puts as much effort into his personal growth and our connection as I do. But my boyfriend disagrees about therapy. He agrees that it would be good for him and says he wants more out of life and wants to grow, but then he doesn't do anything to make that happen. He also procrastinates in multiple other areas of his life. The reason I'm so set on therapy is that he has unhealed trauma that affects him, and I want him to be happy. He used to have emotional outbursts that were very triggering for me, although he has vastly improved in that area without any external help. Also, we can only meet people as deeply as we've met ourselves.

54:40I feel like our relationship has gone stagnant because he isn't growing with me, and we're not connecting further, which I find to be a huge turnoff. I've spoken directly to him about all of this multiple times. He usually responds with something like, why do your things have to be my things? Fine, but he never proposes a different activity or resource instead. At one point, I even gave him an ultimatum, go to therapy or I walk. And yet, here we are. I really love my boyfriend and love like this is hard to find. I'd hate to let him go, but lately I feel like he holds me back because he isn't growing with me and he won't make me happy in the long run.

55:20Am I being too narrow-minded? Are there other ways for my partner to get to know himself better and heal? Is this something I should just learn to live with in our relationship? Signed, hard not to grouse and wonder if this dude is really my spouse when he won't get on the damn couch. Man, another great question. Well, first of all, your boyfriend sounds great in so many important ways. And I think it's awesome that you found somebody who treats you well, who you love on many levels. Well done. He sounds like a special guy, even if he's sort of limited in this department. That said, you're not wrong to want your partner to learn and grow and tackle his issues, whatever they are.

55:54It sounds like the emotional outbursts are one of them. That is a rich area for him to unpack, although it sounds like he's made progress there on his own, which is excellent. I kind of, maybe I need that too sometimes. Unclear if he's just suppressing that rage or actually addressing the underlying cause, but I know trying to suppress rage is really hard, so even if that's what he's doing, it's still encouraging. Now, obviously, Gabe and I, I think we share your view that personal growth is crucial and that therapy is powerful. Good therapy, anyway. But I also feel that your boyfriend doesn't necessarily need to pursue the same sources of help that you have.

56:27If therapy isn't for him or he finds other resources more useful, that's fine. As long as it's like real stuff and not just like watching YouTube videos. Yeah, eight hours of Osho, not gonna heal your childhood. No. Although candidly, Jordan, I would still be interested in understanding where his resistance to therapy comes from. Because in his case, it does sound more like avoidance or a defense then, you know, therapy just isn't for me, but I like these other sources. Right. But then the question is, what are the other resources? What is he doing to understand himself better to work on this stuff?

56:57Is he reading self-help books? Is he working with some kind of coach? Is he pursuing a project or a goal or a practice that's therapeutic or introspective in some way? It doesn't really sound like it. I mean, powerlifting and fitness. Okay, cool. Exercise is obviously essential. Right. But it's not going to fix your relationship with your dad or whatever, you know, as you will learn if you walk into the weightlifting section of any golds gym in the country. That's right. Any big box gym. I have a theory there's a correlation between the circumference of your quads and the stability of your childhood.

57:27The golden ratio. Yeah, it is possible. I'm saying that because of my chicken legs. That's there is some bias here. Oh, well, by that metric, my childhood was perfect. Okay, fine. Yeah. You got those chicken legs to get those vegan chicken legs. Yeah, those impossible calves, baby. those seitan swimmers yeah those uh those tofu tibias oh man i don't think i can top that so i can certainly understand why you feel that your relationship has some limits if he doesn't find some way of working on this stuff as long as you guys have different values around personal growth different capacities for self-inquiry and this is something that matters to you which it should in my opinion then this is going to continue to be an issue but all that said this is up to him it's his life and if he doesn't want to look at some of this stuff then that's just where he's at at least right now.

58:12And that's, I guess that's okay. It's his choice. I think you're in the process of accepting that. Now the question becomes, is this the partner I can be with long-term? And you need to tap into a similar courage yourself in answering that one. Yes. And acting on that answer, because like she said, she gave him the ultimatum mentally. She's already decided that this is a non-negotiable, but she didn't follow through on it. So there's a conflict here. I also think it's interesting that he procrastinates in multiple areas of his life. It's not just the therapy thing. Yeah. That's an important fact here too.

58:40But you know, like we've talked about before on the show, most procrastination, probably all procrastination, is ultimately avoidance. When we delay things, when we neglect them, it's usually because there's something we just don't want to deal with. The thing itself or the feelings that the thing stirs up. So it might be worth asking your boyfriend what, if anything, he might be avoiding by not wanting to give therapy a shot. Kind of an intense question, but it is a fair one. And I would really hear him out and help him pinpoint the source of the resistance. My hunch is that he's avoiding the vulnerability of talking to someone.

59:13Yeah, I think so too. Just the discomfort of opening up to somebody new. Also probably some shame around certain qualities or tendencies like the angry outbursts. I mean, I have personal experience with that and it sucks. You feel like a turd doing that. Or maybe he resents the idea that he has to seek out the same exact kind of help that she has because the whole why do your things have to be my things response? I find that so interesting. That does sound to me like a guy who is very concerned with maintaining his own identity, he might be working pretty hard to stick with the things that he feels are truly his.

59:45Maybe he just doesn't want to feel like he's capitulating to our friend here by agreeing to do something that he doesn't want to do, even if it's good for him. Maybe the whole therapy thing is loaded because agreeing to go makes him feel like, I don't know, maybe like it's my girlfriend's controlling me or like I'm losing my autonomy. I'm just, I'm speculating here a little bit, but I think these are normal feelings. And who knows, maybe he has some good reasons for feeling that way. Maybe his life experience up until this point has made him feel that other people's interventions are dangerous.

1:00:12Or maybe he feels like he's lost other parts of himself in relationships before. All of this would be great stuff for you guys to talk about. And if he can't even have that conversation, then that's also very good data for you. But look, while we're huge fans of therapy, I don't think it's the only source of help or healing out there. But if he wants to live the best possible life, be the best possible partner, he's got to do something. you know, at least got to listen to this podcast. Maybe not starting with this episode and he finds out it was you who wrote in and then, yeah, yeah, sorry about that.

1:00:40If your boyfriend were, say, reading books about anger, listening to lectures about it, talking deeply with you about this stuff, taking an online freaking anger management class, I don't know, I'm sure that this would be a very different story. I wonder if maybe you could start by suggesting other sources that are perhaps less daunting, a book here and there, a YouTube talk, a workshop, help him work up to therapy, or you might dig his heels in and just never go, at which point it becomes about you again, which you're already onto, because ultimately, that's who you're responsible for. Hope you all enjoyed that.

1:01:08I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out the episode we did with Todd McFarlane this week if you haven't yet. I know you might not care about comics and toys. I didn't either, but he was so interesting. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. This course is free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

1:01:35The drills take just a few minutes a day. It's not a heavy lift at all. You can even do it with your vegan chicken legs, Gabe. You could take that lift. This is the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build those relationships before you need them. You can find it at sixminutenetworking.com. Don't forget, we got our subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with other Reddit users and listeners about specific episodes. Someone on there, Gabe, said that your laugh was fake. I saw that the other day and I thought, that can't be true because that would mean that I'm not really funny and we know that that's not the case.

1:02:05See, real laugh. Oh my God, that's making me so self-conscious. Why would you say that on Reddit, guys? Yeah, yeah, you're welcome. So if there's an episode you really like or an episode you really didn't like, you want to share additional thoughts, learn more from people in our show fam. If you're a Reddit user, definitely check it out. It's just the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Also, wee bit wiser, jordanharbinger.com slash news. Man, our newsletter is on fire. Gabe and I are writing it together now, which has, of course, made it way better than it was just like me trying to figure it out on my own.

1:02:33Wisdom from 900, well, wisdom from 1 ,000 episodes. We gotta change the copy to apply to your life. Come check it out. JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show at JordanHarbinger.com slash deals. I'm on Twitter and Instagram at JordanHarbinger. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. That's where all the sane people hang out. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My amazing team is Jen Harbinger or Harbinger, doesn't matter.

1:03:05Say it however you want. I've given up on correcting people. Jay Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Habe Mizrahi, I guess. Our advice and opinions, those are our own. And I am a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Do your own. I haven't been a lawyer for well over a thousand episodes now. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn.

1:03:34And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show with top sleep expert about why we dream, what happens when we sleep, and why chronic lack of sleep and driving while tired is more dangerous than driving under the influence of alcohol. sleep is not an optional lifestyle luxury sleep is a non-negotiable biological necessity sleep is a life support system it is mother nature's best effort yet at immortality and the decimation of sleep throughout industrialized nations is now having a catastrophic impact on our health our wellness as well as the safety and the education of our children it is a silent sleep loss epidemic.

1:04:16And I would contend that it is fast becoming the greatest public health challenge that we now face in the 21st century. The evidence is very clear that when we delay school start times, academic grades increase, behavioral problems decrease, truancy rates decrease, psychological and psychiatric issues decrease. But what we also found, which we didn't expect in those studies, is the life expectancy of students increased. So if our goal as educators truly is to educate and not risk lives in the process, then we are failing our children in the most spectacular manner with this incessant model of early school start times.

1:04:54And by the way, 7.30 a.m. for a teenager is the equivalent for an adult waking up at 4.30 or 3.30 in the morning. If you're trying to survive or regularly getting five hours of sleep or less, you have a 65 % risk of dying at any moment in time. When you wake up the next day, you have a revised mind-wide web of associations, a new associative network, a rebooted iOS that is capable of defining remarkable insights into previously impenetrable problems. And it is the reason that you have never been told to stay awake on a problem. Instead, you're told to sleep on a problem. For more on sleep, including why we dream and how we can increase the quality of our sleep, check out episode 126 with Dr.

1:05:45Matthew Walker on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:05:51Hey, it's Adam Carolla. Not sure if you heard, but I do a podcast Monday through Thursday, wherever you listen to podcasts. I team up with the very best comedians in the world, plus critical thinkers and all-around nut jobs, and offer my personal insight on current events, the state of the nation, and the stories you may have missed. As the world gets crazier every day, you can stay fairly sane. I'll keep you there. I'll handle the crazy. Nuance is often lost on today's world, but you can find it right here. available wherever you listen to finer podcasts. I'm Adam Carolla, and I approve of this message.

1:06:36This episode is sponsored in part by The Gist Podcast. If you're looking for a news podcast that is smart, unfiltered, and doesn't just echo whatever side you already agree with, check out The Gist with my friend Mike Peska. Mike's been doing this longer than just about anyone. It's actually the longest-running daily news podcast. It's earned that spot on Apple's top charts for a reason. Each episode's around 30 minutes, so it's perfect for your commute or while you're making breakfast. It's always packed with sharp, thought-provoking takes. What I love about the gist is that it's not stuck in a partisan box.

1:07:02Mike, he's a really smart dude. He digs into real questions, the kind that most shows avoid because they don't fit neatly into a political lane. He'll challenge the right. He keeps the left honest. He dives into stuff like the New York City mayoral race, that whole cluster, and the chaos of sports betting, or even whether talking to your plants actually does anything. He's an award-winning journalist. He's not some schmo like me who's totally unqualified. You've probably seen his work in the Atlantic, the Free Press, the Washington Post. He's got that rare mix of wit, skepticism, and depth that makes even heavy topics fun to listen to.

1:07:31And he's a great dinner guest, just saying. So if you want your daily news with more brains and less noise, check out The Gist with Mike Peska every weekday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored in part by the Something You Should Know podcast. Finding a great new podcast can feel like searching for a needle in a haystack. Let me save you some hassle. Check out Something You Should Know with my friend Mike Carruthers. Every episode is packed with fascinating insights that you can actually use. Mike interviews top experts on topics that shape your life, like how to optimize your brain chemistry, the best and worst ways to apologize.

1:07:59Probably could use that recently. Why couples hate to talk about money. No matter the topic, Mike asks the questions you'd want to ask, getting straight to the good stuff. And the conversations are always engaging, always insightful, guaranteed to leave you a little smarter than before. They've got thousands of five star reviews. But do you even need that? I'm recommending it. You don't need other people's opinion, right? At this point, I would hope. Anyway, give it a listen. Just search for something you should know wherever you get your podcasts. look for the bright yellow light bulb and start listening to something you should know