1004: Memory | Skeptical Sunday

25:04That makes sense. I've definitely got some of those where it's like, oh, remember that time that I did that thing and it was really dangerous? Wow, that was scary. And I will change. I will stop thinking about it because otherwise I feel like, wow, I almost fell out of a window and died. That's really scary and would have been super sad. I don't want to think about that. But yeah, it's not that I don't remember it. It's just that my mind consciously, I don't want to keep torturing myself with that stupid thing. Here's something you should implant in your memory, the deals on the products and services that support this show.

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26:17you hear insane examples though like people being abducted by aliens and they repress the memory and it's actually quite sad because it's often combined with real issues that you can just see or hear in their stories there was one woman i saw in a video and god knows where this was unsolved mysteries or something like that some og show like that and she was just convinced that she had been abducted by aliens. And her whole thing was she was married on another planet and she had kids and a family there. And it was like one of the alien leaders had married her. And of course, in reality, she was just like a lonely mess here on Earth.

26:54And it was quite tragic. Right. And so she created this. Yeah. Kind of sounds awesome, right? Right. Like, oh, I'm important on this other planet where people love me. It's like, oh, right. But it is like really depressing. She's not not alone in those stories. Like a lot of people do that. And they're just justifying the idea of false memory because they hear about it. Like everybody hears a repressed memory. And then there's the clinical definition of something called disassociative amnesia, which is published in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders or the DSM. I've heard of that.

27:32The book does come up often on the show, and I know it has issues here and there. I'm not up on the specifics, though. Yeah, I mean, I think that book has a ton of issues. But as far as memory science goes, like I did a little digging and the panel that put together the DSM includes no memory experts and the definitions it lays out, they carry significant risks in clinical and legal settings. You mentioned that the concept of repressed memory also affects public policy. So how does this affect the law, for example? Well, in the 80s and 90s, the United States was swept up in like this baseless conspiracy theories about satanic cults committing rampant abuse all over the country.

28:15Do you remember this? Yeah, the satanic panic, right? Is that what this is? Totally, totally. A.K.A. this is the time when every album I bought from Sam Goody was heavily scrutinized by my parents. Right, right. And it started with accusations of satanic abuse at this one preschool in California. And it was compelling, right? So talk shows and news, it spread these fears. And there were hundreds of allegations that were investigated. In 1988, Gerardo Rivera. Of course. Yeah, of course. He aired this primetime special called Devil Worship, Exposing Satan's Underground. And he just alleged thousands of children were being sacrificed by satanic cults in the U.S.

29:02every year. He interviewed Ozzy Osbourne and then blamed heavy metal music for luring kids into Satanism. Hey, we couldn't find a memory expert, but we did book Ozzy Osbourne. I can just see my parents watching that way back when you could actually understand some of the things coming out of Ozzy Osbourne's mouth. Oh, poor Ozzy. I know. It was, I don't know if it was Ozzy or Otto or what, but it was the highest rated television document. It was considered a documentary at the time. Oh, wow. 20 million households watched and parents were, of course, collectively freaked out. And not long after the Geraldo thing aired, Oprah did a show warning about how dangerous satanic cults are and that they were coming for your children.

29:50It's crazy. Man, people were compelled by Geraldo and Oprah. Oprah was charming. I don't know what I never quite got the Geraldo thing. Even as a kid, I was like, that doesn't seem quite accurate. It's wild how much disinformation those two are responsible for. And it's like their fans are in a cult, actually. It's absolutely mind boggling. Yeah, they are the cult. The real cult was the people you were listening to about cults the whole time. I know. And I mean, but people listen to them. And so, boom, here we are. The satanic panic unfolded. And I want to say that I'm 100 % against banning books, but some should just never be published because these TV specials, they were based on several books published in the 80s with titles like The Courage to Heal, which is also known as the Bible of Incompetent Therapists.

30:41Then there was the 1980 book called Michelle Remembers, and it was co-written by a therapist and his female patient. It discussed his brilliance in uncovering her memories of childhood satanic abuse, And it was a bestseller. The two of them divorced their partners, married each other and laughed all the way to the bank, I guess. Oh, wow. There's this really depressing documentary about it and it shows just how insane they were. The patient's sister said in the documentary that she believes Michelle is she's living in hell. The story haunted their family for years. She said, you know, we pretend we're a family, but there's always that feeling of like, how could you do the damage you did by telling the story that wasn't true?

31:31So these repressed memories of satanic childhood, they put Michelle's family under investigation. And then tons of therapists in the 80s and 90s, they got obsessed with rooting out evidence of satanic cults sexually abusing children. and they believed memory suppression was a tool of satanic cult abuse. It sounds like something you would see in a conspiracy theory, but it's done by therapists, which is really disturbing. So it's so silly to think, oh, so satanic cultists have magical powers that involve psychological mechanisms to make you forget. How convenient. And also nobody can identify, no experts can identify these, but like random people who worship Satan, They're just so well versed on these that they can pull the trigger on a whim.

32:17And then to battle it, it's like, oh, psychoanalysts to the rescue. You know, it becomes like this terrible superhero movie, right? But they believe through hypnosis and careful questioning that these therapists can bring horrible memories back and root out the devil. So the combo of this repressed memory theory along with the satanic panic, it was insane. It does sound absolutely out of control. Is there a kernel of truth to this? Like, were there any cases of satanic cults actually influencing children, but it was nothing like this? No, no, no, no. Is there a shred? Nothing. No. Just nothing.

32:54Zero. Crap. Crap. I mean, I guess it's good. What? Not crap. It's good. No satanic cults. To be clear. Oh, damn it. I'm not a fan of satanic cults. Darn. I mean, there were huge investigations in the 90s about it, but the FBI, they found no evidence ever of any secret organized cult of satanic child abusers anywhere. But people still went to jail for it. You know what people are going to say? Oh, the FBI found no evidence of satanic cults. That's because the FBI is the satanic cult. You don't have to email me, folks. I know where your head's at. I can't believe people actually went to jail over this nonsense.

33:31That part, that's horrifying. Yeah. And it also discounts people who are having actual abuse. Right. But even as cases slowly collapsed and like the skepticism prevailed, defendants were going to prison and families were traumatized and millions of dollars were being spent on prosecutions. A lot of people went to jail for decades convicted of these like hideous crimes where the sole evidence was these repressed memories, long forgotten abuse coming to the surface. But research came out that showed these techniques used by therapists to, quote unquote, recover these memories. These techniques also work really well to implant false memories and create like realistic recalled experiences of things that never happened.

34:21Wow, that is terrifying. So imagine, just imagine getting convicted of using a child in a satanic ritual and you go to prison. Your life is ruined. You go to prison and people who thought they knew you are shocked and they don't want to talk to you anymore. Even, you know, friends, family, maybe even your spouse. And it's just complete nonsense. Yeah. It's such a nightmare. Oh, yeah. So do people still believe memory repression is a weapon used by cults or whatever? Or is that era kind of past? No. I mean, unfortunately, it's still around. I mean, online conspiracy groups like QAnon, right? Like they have a lot to do with this kind of thinking.

34:56In 2021, the New York Times ran an article titled It's Time to Revisit the Satanic Panic. And they were equating the whole Pizzagate thing to the Satanic Panic. Wow. OK, so Pizzagate, for those blissfully unaware of what this is, and I wish I were one of you, actually, that was the sort of QAnon slash Alex Jones slash Internet kooky conspiracy that alleged, I think it was Hillary Clinton had children held in a they were captive in a pizza shop basement. And then it turned out the pizza shop didn't even have a basement, a fact which was uncovered when a crazy, terminally online conspiracy neckbeard dude waltzed in there with a rifle demanding to rescue kids in the basement that didn't exist in the first place.

35:43You got it right. And I bet that guy wishes he could forget he did that, right? Yeah. There was an FBI agent in the article. He had worked on a lot of the satanic panic cases. And he said that, you know, when people get emotionally involved in an issue, their common sense and their reason, they just go out the window. So people believe what they want and need to believe. And that seems to be the basis for many lost memories of abuse. There was a difference between satanic panic and Pizzagate, which is pretty huge, though. In the 80s and 90s, actually hundreds of children were interviewed and questioned, and they used leading questions and techniques that could implant these memories.

36:26It was wild. There was just this combo of seemingly credible people saying the occult is everywhere. Then there were kids who started to believe these horrible satanic things happened to them. And then there was kids who didn't believe that. They just wanted the questioning to end. So they simply admitted to things that later on they retracted. You know, luckily, I guess if you want to look at a positive of Pizzagate, no child ever came forward or they didn't question any children regarding Pizzagate. So the implanted memory there happened to the people who were reading post after post about Pizzagate.

37:01But when you go back to Satanic Panic in 1994, researchers with the National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect found that, again, investigators could not substantiate any of roughly 12 ,000 accusations of group cult sexual abuse based on Satanic ritual. But by then, by the time they came out with those findings, over 200 people were already in jail. Oh, my God. Yeah, many were still being accused. Oh, my God. Even though nothing was proven and the evidence all fell apart. What? 200 people. That's just a tremendous amount of lives ruined. Oh, my God. It's heartbreaking, right? But a lot of those people were eventually freed, but it was sometimes after years.

37:46I think it's pretty famous, the West Memphis Three. That whole thing was they were convicted of murders that they did through satanic sacrifice. And that was in 94. They were freed in 2011. Like it was proven that was all baloney. And then in 2013, a Texas couple were released after 21 years in prison for satanic sacrifice of children. The state awarded them three point like four million dollars from the state has a fund for wrongful convictions. But thanks. But nothing buys you those years back. No, basically, you can retire because you're unemployable anyway. And hopefully and sorry for the 21 years you didn't spend with your kids if you even had kids because now you're too old to have like that's just horrific.

38:35I mean, there's that's so sad. So the memories are implanted in the victims or they're implanted in the accused. Right. Do people know they're admitting to crimes they didn't commit? Because people do that for plea deals all the time. Right. Like just say you rob the store and you'll get probation. Yeah. It's like, all right, fine. There's examples of everything you mentioned. Right. memories can be implanted in victims or accused or whatever, but people deny crimes. And then after interrogation techniques are used, they sometimes doubt themselves. This is why you shouldn't say anything when being interrogated, why you want your lawyer present, because there's just a long history of people confessing to things they did not do.

39:16And oh, I wanted to mention this for what it's worth. Gerardo, he apologized. Oh, for the satanic panic special? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure he gave back all the money that he earned from that, too. And like, oh, man, that thing that made me super famous in the 90s. I am so sorry about that as he dries his tears with$100 bills. Sorry for all that fake satanic stuff. How nice of him. But it wasn't just Geraldo who owed an apology, obviously. I mean, there's there's a lot going on here. A lot of moving parts. Yeah. I mean, there's countless malpractice lawsuits against therapists who use repressed memory techniques.

39:52That makes sense. Like these therapists, though, I mean, they all they do believe they're doing good. But in every case I've come across, the therapist lost and then they were told their practice is harmful. Yeah, this is anecdotal. But I have heard that a lot of the repressed memory stuff comes from the same therapist. like if you're a therapist and you've been practicing for 40 years, there's maybe like one iffy case where maybe somebody doesn't remember a traumatic event. But then there's other therapists where like every single patient they have has repressed memory issues and traumatic events that they don't remember.

40:24And it's like, what are the odds that you get the 0.1 % of everyone else in terms of the type of patient? So one would think then that mental health clinicians would treat these practices as anathema, right? Okay, these don't work. They're harmful. you think therapists would be trained actively to avoid this practice. Come on. As a lawyer, you're always seeing like continued learning how to manage your client's money because you can't put the money in your own bank account or move it around. You got to keep it in the trust and it's super strict and you can't, you know, there's like a lot of guidelines.

40:56They hammer these things on quite a bit because if you get it wrong, you go to jail. Right. And I mean, you would think that would be the same in with clinicians. But sure. New research I was looking at is showing between 60 and 90 percent of modern mental health clinicians believe traumatic memories can be repressed. At a popular therapy now, it's called EMDR, which stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing Therapy. It involves moving your eyes a specific way while you think about a traumatic repressed memory. And somehow that's supposed to help you heal. I can't really wrap my mind around it, but there's no scientific research.

41:40There's no testable hypothesis about this technique as it pertains to repressed memories. But a study of clinicians finds 93 percent of them believe these traumatic memories can be repressed and retrieved this way. Research shows, too, like just the general public, they believe we can even repress an act of murder. It seems the belief is, well, I can't remember large parts of my childhood, so I must have been abused. There must have been something bad in those blank spaces because otherwise I would remember. And then it's like, let me get to work remembering this stuff because I'm looking for a cause for my current woes.

42:18Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, it's not just abuse, right? So we could get away from the abuse aspect of it because it's depressing and sometimes it's real. But there are lots of lab experiments that prove memories, whether they're good or bad, they can be implanted. The ethics of these kind of studies can be questioned, but there's like a really famous study called the Formation of False Memory Study. And it's also known as Lost in the Mall Study. So they got a family member to talk about five things that happened during the subject's childhood. But one of the things would be made up. And that made up thing was the time the subject got lost in the mall when they were five.

42:5980 % of people, they were all in. And they said, oh, yeah, I remember getting lost in the mall. And then 40 percent of them, they added details they weren't told. Wow. So you can make everyone a liar pretty much. Yeah, kind of. But they're not liars, right? It's just a plausible situation. Sure. One, they trust that family member. Two, they went to a mall as a child. Three, they've seen Home Alone so you can get lost. But the memory, there you go. It's implanted. And more recently, a study was done showing adults a photo of them in a hot air balloon as a child. OK. And 100 percent of those shown this photoshopped picture remembered the experience and 50 percent spoke about like really specific details.

43:48Of something that never actually happened. That's incredible. I know. You just show someone a picture of them in a certain situation and they're just like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I remember riding on an airplane wing. That definitely happened. Exactly. Like they're given no information, just shown the photo and we believe it. Right. So, oh, yeah, I remember that day. The examples like that, they go on and on. Like if it's plausible and the memory is quite easy to implant. You know, I could Photoshop you into my childhood photos. And if the circumstances were plausible, you could believe it's a photo from your childhood.

44:21With AI, this is going to get out of hand. Right. because you're going to be able to be like, all right, I want 13 hours of video of this person hanging out at my summer house in the 80s. And you'll just be like, I guess I did grow up with Jordan Harbinger. How weird. I don't remember this. But actually, now that I think about it, I do. So I've actually had a memory stolen. No Photoshop needed. I really don't want to out this person because they're kind of a public-ish figure. But I told this story about seeing a celebrity on an airplane and something they did on the airplane. And then later on, I heard this person tell this story on a piece of media.

44:56And I was like, what the heck? That's definitely my story. But without you. Oh, yeah. Without me. It happened to them suddenly. And then this person wrote a book and they put it in the book. And I was like, what the heck is going on here? And I thought that was so odd. And I knew the person who wrote the book for this particular thought leader. And I was like, hey, FYI, what do you think of this story? And he's like, oh, yeah, you know, that was a later ad, actually. And I'm like, I'll tell you why. Because I told that story. Wow. And it's my story. And the guy, the writer was like, that doesn't surprise me at all.

45:26I feel like a lot of the stuff this person told me happened to them is just like stuff I read about on the internet that's different. It has him added in there. It's like this guy doesn't have a real personality. He just like borrows things from the internet and makes them his own and convinces himself that it happened to him. It's so freaking weird. That kind of thing I did not come across. Like he just sounds like a sociopath or I think so. Or like mentally ill. Like, I don't know if that's anything going on with the memory, but that is insane. I think he implanted memories in himself. In himself.

45:58Right, right, right. Like, oh, I wish that happened to me. Yeah. He wanted the memory. So he's like, I'm going to I'm going to just pretend that this is my memory now. Hey, I mean, that might be what a lot of politicians do. Right. They say if you say something over and over again, people believe it. So, yeah, if it's in a book, it's not your memory anymore, Jordan. I mean, there you go. There's like so many suggestive techniques like that, and they can affect us when no one's even trying. You know, memory researchers, they make a really good point that traumatic and other really significant events, they're well remembered.

46:32So complete memory loss for traumatic events, it's rare. It's like really, really rare and usually involves brain damage. There's no documented accounts I could find of memory repressed Holocaust survivors or survivors of Japanese concentration camps or New Yorkers from 9-11. I mean, people with post-traumatic stress disorder or PTSD, they often suffer from flashbacks and intrusive memories. You know, it's like just the opposite of repressed memories. So the issue seems to be clinical psychologists who believe in repressed memories treating patients who also believe in repressed memories. Yeah.

47:14I mean, it's turtles all the way down or memories all the way down, I guess. There is scientific interest in what therapists know about the functioning of memory. And the findings always show a high percentage of clinicians believe in repressed memory theory. So what are psychology majors learning? because when it's in a$900 textbook, it's got to be real. It must be correct. I will say, I will give these textbooks credit that in psychology textbooks, they give Freud just like a little paragraph now, like one of those little boxes in the corner, so they don't spend a lot of time on him. You might have heard of this guy.

47:49Forget everything you heard about this person. Right, right. Let's gloss over this. But, you know, we just have to look at more than the psych majors because there's so many professions that work closely with victims and patients and witnesses and suspects, and they need accurate memory training because there's so much opportunity for implanting memories. Increasing these professionals, you know, increasing their awareness of potentially harmful beliefs about repressed memories should be a priority in clinical and legal work, as well as for psychological scientists. It does seem like skepticism of repressed memory.

48:27It's the highest in legal psychology. And that's great because it led to a standard on what kind of testimony is allowed in court. Yeah, that's good. I vaguely remember this as I haven't repressed all of law school yet. I vaguely remember the gatekeeper for expert witnesses, the Daubert challenge. It's like the ultimate test for experts. Oh, yeah, Yeah, totally. And they have to prove their testimony is based on like sound science and can withstand scrutiny. So insurance companies rely on it was a U.S. Supreme Court case called Daubert versus Dow Pharmaceuticals. The insurance companies rely on it for injury claims because a Daubert motion seeks to exclude presentation of expert testimony.

49:12and under the Daubert standard and expert testimony, it must be based on the scientific method and it has to help the jury understand evidence given. So through this, like judges have the power to admit or not admit expert testimony. Right. This is important because otherwise you could just hire any quack scientist who supports your thing and be like, yeah, you can detect water using this magic pencil. Everyone knows this in my industry. It's like all the other scientists are like, no, that is fake. And then you give those guys equal weight. It's totally unfair. Right. So the expert witness has to help the jury understand the science as well.

49:47They can't just be like, I'm an expert. Trust me, bro. If that doesn't happen in a satisfactory way, the judge can say, look, you can't even bring this guy in the courtroom or the jury is free to disregard the evidence or the testimony entirely. How does this affect memory, though, in the courtroom? So because of this, it can just eliminate testimony based on just memory. I mean, this is still debated. Like in France in 2017, they wanted to increase the statute of limitations for sexual abuse prosecutions because the idea was victims might repress those memories and it might take them years to uncover their traumatic experiences.

50:27experiences. But in the courtroom, there's many reasons we would do that, right? Like more plausible than repression, like shame, fear, all things like that could be at play. You know what's better than losing decades of your life in federal prison because you were accused of abusing children in a satanic cult? The great deals on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening and supporting the show. It is your support of our advertisers that keeps the lights on around here. All the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one searchable, clickable place.

50:58Jordan Harbinger dot com slash deals. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday.

51:06You know, if you're abused when you're a kid and then you're 17 or 16, you don't want to just dig all that stuff up. Maybe you just let sleeping dogs lie. But then you're 30 and you're like, no, that was messed up. I want this guy to go to jail. I get it. That said, testimony must be credible. So that keeps a lot of repressed memory testimony out of the courtroom, I would hope. Yeah, definitely keeps what's called repressed memory testimony out. You know, the word repression became so controversial after that whole satanic panic thing. Right. So it's just by another name now. Clinicians adopted the term dissociative amnesia, which is just repressed memory with a fancier name.

51:44Right. So in 2013, that pesky DSM did not include the word repression or the phrase repressed memory, but define dissociative amnesia as an event so traumatic it causes the, quote, inability to recall autobiographical information. That's kind of scary because it's basically repressive memory in a trench coat. And then it's like, oh, well, as a judge, I know about repressive memory being fake, but this is different. It's dissociative amnesia. And there's an expert here. So maybe we should let him in. And that's sort of scary. It's almost like not a loophole, but an ugly way for fake evidence to get into your trial.

52:26And if you look at it, dissociative amnesia was not mentioned in pre-1990s work on repression. So it's just like a workaround. And the subtle but really significant name change, it's muddied the waters and provided a cover for this continued practice of psychotherapy that involves repressed memories. It's kind of like if you, oh, man, asbestos is bad for us. Oh, you know what? Here's a new thing. We're going to call it. I don't know. I can't think of a clever name right now. We're going to call it cotton candy insulation. And we're going to, you know, fireproofing. And everyone's like, oh, great.

53:03I like the sound of that. But it's still cancerous and carcinogenic. Yeah, that's really gross. So is this an American phenomenon or you said France earlier? Yeah, I mentioned France. I mean, it's more like a Western world thing. Repressed memories in the UK, they were examined. And I love this name. They have the British False Memory Society, which is a charity for people who claim they are falsely accused of a crime specifically on the basis of a false memory. And they've looked at thousands of cases since 1993 and find that it's like 84 percent of women accusers claim they recovered a childhood memory of abuse while undergoing some kind of psychotherapy.

53:49And a lot of it involves hypnosis. Oh, OK. There are a lot of ways to decipher that statistic. There's a slippery slope here on multiple sides. I know, I know. It gets dangerous because you want to believe everybody, but there's other things going on. It could mean women who are abused are more likely to seek therapy, maybe, of course. And it could also mean, though, that memories can be implanted by these therapists. Maybe both can be true, but a lot of the cases that this charity researched, they found the accused to be innocent. I'm not sure what to do with this information. Obviously, we want to believe any victim who comes forward.

54:28Of course. But we also have to adhere to the standards that our justice system has laid out and make sure that we're adequately investigating so that we don't end up putting the wrong person behind bars and ruining their life. I mean, we see it happen all the time for murders and stuff like that. It's just terrible. Yeah, of course. I mean, and a lot of countries are just trying to unblur that line here. Like there's a Dutch group called the Fictitious Memory Group and there's False Memory Deutschland and Germany. And but they all have similar discoveries in the U.S. and the U.K. There's a similar organization called the Innocence Project.

55:04These organizations, they're necessary. They're not like out to blame these victims, but it's 73 percent of jurors, 50 percent of judges and like 65 percent of law enforcement believe in long term repressed memory. So those statistics are similar in other countries, too. But this notion of repressed memory, it's it's just highly problematic. Has there ever been a repressed memory recovered that is like really good? You know, oh, my gosh, my uncle was super rich and we went on this camping trip and I helped him bury treasure and I just forgot all about it. That sounds awesome. I mean, I didn't come across that, but it would stand to reason like that would be true, too.

55:46I suppose. Why won't my therapist uncover the memory that I'm a princess and I was just robbed of my fortune and title? Still traumatic. Yeah. Still traumatic. Sure. But I don't want to make light of anyone's traumatic experiences. I just want to highlight how flimsy this repressed memory concept is. So, you know, remember, this doesn't just involve these big traumatic events. Like, I argue with my sisters about insignificant childhood things all the time. And we're all probably a little bit wrong. Aren't we all somewhat wrong pretty much all the time? That's kind of how the whole thing works with the brain, right?

56:23It's just different interpretations of reality. And then people remember different parts of something. That's why we all fight all the time, right? There is this collective misinformation phenomenon called the Mandela effect. Have you heard of this? Yes, sure. But is that a memory thing or is that like a parallel universe conspiracy type idea? When I was reading about it, it just seems like most examples are spelling errors or like silly rumors or the fact that when we're kids, our memory just stinks. And yeah, that was named after Nelson Mandela because like a ton of people vividly remember him dying in prison in the 1980s, even though he lived until 2013.

57:04Yeah, it's like a glitch in the Matrix. And it is so bizarre how our brains can play tricks on us like that. There are so many examples of the Mandela effect. But what's interesting is when you look at the stuff, when you Google it, you'll find that a lot of it has to do with kid stuff. Some of it's just got to be like kid memory is terrible. And so now as adults, we all misremember a bunch of the same stuff. Like I could have sworn the Monopoly guy had a monocle. And now you're like, oh, he did, right? He's running and he's got a monocle. No, he doesn't have one, actually. Yeah, I mean, that's a classic Mandela effect example.

57:37You know, another one's the spelling of Berenstain Bears. Like people swear it was spelled with E-I-N instead of A-I-N. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is tricky. I saw that we have those books in our house and I was like, oh, it's Berenstain. But to be fair, I couldn't spell my own last name when I was little, let alone one as complex and vowel heavy as Berenstain. Besides, who knew there were Jewish bears? Come on. I mean, well, I guess you could go to a gay bar in Tel Aviv. Right. But we might be talking about something different. I don't know. Didn't see that coming. My last name has no vowels. So that was like super confusing as well.

58:19But my sister, she just entertains the idea that, no, we're not remembering it wrong. There's just some tear in the fabric of space and time. And something came and it changed the spelling of our childhood books. And in reality, it's just the Mandela effects, the result of false memories and the power of suggestion. Like we hear something so many times again that our brains start to fill in the gaps with what we expect to be true. Maybe your sister could take those memory pills advertised on TV. Is there any truth to those? I mean, surely good nutrition helps our brain and memory, but I don't know about a straight up pill.

58:56Yeah. I mean, when you really start to think about it, like the concept of memory enhancing drugs is so appealing. But pills that dramatically enhance our memory are fictional. And if they were real, they would not be available to everyone through the mail. Right. Like it's more the ethical implications of memory enhancing drugs that I think are interesting. Like, think about it. If those drugs actually worked, who would really have access to them? You know, would they be creating an unfair advantage in education or at work? Do you think I slash all of us have memories implanted in our minds? Definitely.

59:34Like, think about all your alien abductions. Right. True. You got me on that one. It's just all so like the Matrix. It's eerie, isn't it? How do I know which memories to question now? Yeah. And think about like what you said earlier about adding memory implantation into an AI simulation and just creating a memory you would never, never question. This is just taking us into an ethical dilemma, like who would decide what memories are implanted? And what happens if something goes wrong and the memories cause harm or distress? Oh, my gosh, that's kind of bound to happen. Yeah, this is the conversation that needs to happen, right?

1:00:12We have to have strict regulations and safeguards in place to ensure that memory implantation is used responsibly and ethically because it is going to be used, but it's coming. Like we have to face these questions. How so? Well, in 2014, so it was like already 10 years ago, scientists discovered how to implant false memories in lab mice. What? Wow. That sounds like a sci-fi movie. How do they know that they can do that? So, I mean, there were these neuroscientist nerds, right? I think this was at MIT. I think experts is the term you're looking for, but continue. Sure, sure. Expert nerds. And they used a technique called optogenetics.

1:00:56And this uses lasers. to stimulate these genetically engineered cells. So essentially, they figured out how to reactivate a memory by flooding certain neurons with laser light. And then they figured out which neurons triggered fear. So they placed this little guy in this really safe space he was familiar with. They engaged this memory laser thing and the mouse froze and displayed distinct fear response. and the mouse was reacting as if it had received an electrical shock when it hadn't at all. I won't go into details, but they scared the mouse to death. Oh, poor mouse. That's crazy. First of all, I didn't know you could actually get scared to death.

1:01:43But is that possible to try on humans? Not that I'm volunteering anytime soon, but that's scary. Yeah. I mean, according to those researchers, the only leap left between that experiment and doing that to a human, It's just technological innovation. OK, well, that's terrifying, right? Tell me some good that can come from all this so we don't have I'll have nightmares about this real or implanted nightmares. There are so many positives. Sure, there are. I swear. So this could lead to scientific memory suppression that we want. Right. This could cure PTSD, depression or other disorders like it could make people with substance abuse issues forget their addiction.

1:02:25That's incredible. You know, and a lot of the research is done with the hopes of curing Alzheimer's because they think they'll be able to reverse engineer memories that are lost to the disease. Oh, wow. That's amazing. But could erasing a memory, even a bad one, erase a portion of the person themselves? I mean, now we're getting philosophical, right? It's kind of like where is our personality and our life experience separate from who we are? Of course, but it's definitely a philosophical discussion that needs to happen, though it can be painful. Our negative memories do define us. But I think for you and I, that means one thing where somebody who's debilitated by PTSD, they could see it differently than us.

1:03:10So there's also questions like if you erase the memory of a bad ex from your past, are you erasing the lessons you learned about love? The larger point is here that there are negatives, so we need to brace ourselves. But for all the good it could do, we have to encourage that while at the same time understanding that the neuroscience, it could allow for witness tampering. It could implant false patriotism in people under a brutal dictatorship. Like, it's super complicated. It also could be I watch the Bourne movies too much. I can see that. It could be that too. So is it the Matrix or Inception becoming reality?

1:03:53I mean, it's actually quite freaky that this is all happening. It seems inevitable, but wow, it's closer than I thought, I guess. But it is happening, right? I mean, we have to look at both sides of it. And the ability to actually do this is thought to only be like four or five decades away. So definitely warn your children. There is a federal research group called the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency or DARPA. And they have said that they're just four years, four years from a brain implant capable of altering PTSD related memory. That sounds like the beginnings of some CIA mind control type stuff.

1:04:34Y 'all know I'm not a conspiracy guy, but dang, like if you're oh, we we can alter your memory with this chip. But it's just for medical stuff. It's purely therapeutic. Come on. That's not going to survive scrutiny for very long. You know, we have to focus on the good stuff. Like it doesn't have to be doomsday. There's an NYU professor who has a proposal for a microchip in the human brain that will allow a human Internet interface, making the mind like a search engine as well as improving our memory. So in theory, he thinks we could essentially backup files to prevent someone from tampering with our actual memory.

1:05:11Huh. I've seen the Neuralink video where the guy can play chess with this brain machine interface. It's incredible. It's so incredible. The world's world's first cyborg, I guess. Still, though, not making me feel too much better. But wouldn't it also allow a hacker to hack your brain and your memory? I mean, it's not quite that simple, of course, but it would be possible. And that's really scary. Yeah. I mean, that's why we have to have these discussions, right? You're just emphasizing how important ethical dialogue is and it needs to start. So these techniques are being developed and discussions on the regulations and oversight must happen to prevent human rights violations or miscarriages of justice.

1:05:53You know, there are moral implications around technology and memory, but there are so many positive and life improving possibilities, too. So above all, it's just this is a great reminder to approach our memories with a healthy dose of skepticism and curiosity. Well, I wonder how I'm going to remember this conversation. It's been quite traumatic. Thank you for bending our minds, Jessica. Of course. And thank you all for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan at JordanHarbinger.com. Show notes at JordanHarbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes on the website as well.

1:06:29Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at JordanHarbinger.com slash deals. I'm at JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. in, and you can find Jessica on her sub stack between the lines, and we'll link to that in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Milio Campo, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing things you hear on the show.

1:06:59Also, we may get a few things wrong here and there, especially on Skeptical Sunday, so if you think we really dropped the ball on something, definitely let us know. We're usually pretty receptive to that. Y 'all know how to reach me, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. And remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about junk science.

1:07:31There is this anti-establishment sentiment that leads to blanket science denial, which is enormously problematic and seems to be growing. There is so much false information on the Internet, it's very easy to just baselessly claim that legitimate information is false. We're having to reckon with the fact that the Internet is doing this to us. It's very much a double-edged sword. It's giving us all the information, and so it's very hard to, like, censor things. But then also we have all of these, you know, lies and charlatans, and this stuff propagates like wildfire, and it's an enormous problem.

1:08:03It's just such an alluring narrative. It's so easy to peddle. We want it to be true so bad, but it's not real. You need to be equipped with some ability, some set of skills to be able to discern the validity of information, particularly scientific. Platforms like YouTube have had to make adjustments to their algorithm because they have come to understand how much they have been facilitating this destruction of our sociological fabric by allowing people to travel down these rabbit holes. It's a very attractive narrative, right? It gives you a sense of purpose. It's a big problem. That's why we're in the post-truth era.

1:08:38Whatever you want to find on the internet, it's there. All the truth and all the lies. When you wrap your identity around a false cause, you're eliminating yourself from some other possible contribution that you could be making. I'm crusading against this thing. yeah, we should remain driven and encourage others to do the same. I think it's the biggest problem facing mankind. If you want to increase your scientific literacy and not get suckered into believing weaponized hogwash and passing it off to your friends and family's fact, check out episode 745 with Dave Farina, with Dave Farina on the Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:09:16Hey, it's Adam Carolla. Not sure if you heard, but I do a podcast Monday through Thursday, wherever you listen to podcasts. I team up with the very best comedians in the world, plus critical thinkers and all-around nut jobs, and offer my personal insight on current events, the state of the nation, and the stories you may have missed. As the world gets crazier every day, you can stay fairly sane. I'll keep you there. I'll handle the crazy. Nuance is often lost on today's world, but you can find it right here. available wherever you listen to find our podcast. I'm Adam Carolla, and I approve of this message.

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