1012: Pal's Husband Eyes Your OnlyFans on the Sly | Feedback Friday

21:54She's carrying that need into adulthood, and she's looking for it to be met by a mother who, I think it's fair to say, just cannot meet that need. Right. But that never stops somebody from trying, does it? Right. I mean, it's her mom. So it's not crazy that she wants her mom to know her and love her. It's totally normal. Not crazy at all, which is why she called her every week during the pandemic and she initiated contact and she pushed for them to be close. But the subtext of those calls seems to be, mom, please show me that you care, that you love me, that you're invested in me too. Right. That it's not just her who wants a relationship.

22:27Yeah, but when she stops calling, her mom doesn't reach out. And that is devastating. Yeah, it's like one of those one-sided friendships where your friend never calls you. Except it's your mother. Except it's your mom, yeah. And you realize like, oh, they don't really care. Super hurtful. But she still doesn't give up, right? She addresses the issue multiple times with her mom. And her mom is like, I know, I need to do better. And then she doesn't make an effort. And then they have that fight. She calls her mom an asshole. Her mom charges at her. She is litigating this very old conflict. She's expressing her rage, her very legitimate rage, at a mother who will not give her the love she wants and deserves.

22:59And her mom is coming back at her with her own rage. And it's not entirely clear what that is, but I think it's wrapped up in a lot of shame and frustration, but they're not making any progress, right? So our friend here gets to this point, which is fine. You know what? I'm done. I can't talk to you anymore, which I also understand. But then, and this might be the most meaningful part of her letter, she doesn't want to create a division or strain within the family. Yeah, that jumped out at me too, because it's like, you're not the one creating the strain here. Your mom is. Well, in a big way, yes, she had a child.

23:30She owed that child love and safety and connection, and she didn't always give that to her. So you could say that mom failed first. But now that we're at this point in the story, I think it's more accurate to say they are both creating this strife. because I think what our friend here is doing is she's enacting an old situation with her mom in different ways again and again, hoping that her mom will finally respond to her differently, even though at the same time she's saying, I'm done, I'm done with this, we're not gonna talk anymore. Which, okay, maybe you've decided to be done in terms of calling her all the time or visiting, but that doesn't mean that you're done wanting, needing a mom who can relate to you, a mom who loves you, or at least knows how to express that love.

24:12As long as that wish remains and it's a perfectly fair wish. We all have it. But as long as that wish remains unresolved, her mom will continue to cause her great pain. Right, right. Even if they don't talk. Maybe even especially if they don't talk because then it's confirmed, right? Mom doesn't want to talk to me. Mom isn't there for me. Right. Mom is not really playing the role of my mom. Right. Not the mom she craves anyway. But so is that part of the enactment too? Just cutting her off? It might be. Consciously, she might be going, I have to cut mom off because it's too painful. but unconsciously she might be going, I'm going to cut mom off and see if that finally does it.

24:47Right. Maybe that'll finally make her change. And I have some sympathy for that because that's kind of the first thing that occurred to me. Like, what if I cut her off? Then she sees that she doesn't have it. You know, that actually, that was my default, which is probably not super healthy. That could be one of the things in the mix here. There's one other thing we need to touch on, which is she loves her dad and she says she has an amazing relationship with him. And look, I believe her. When mom is intoxicated a lot of the time and unstable and doesn't always want to live, the more stable parent is essential, right?

25:15And I'm sure she has a lot of love for her father, a lot of gratitude, and I'm so glad she has that. But I also suspect that there's a lot more to her feelings about her dad. Like she said, he himself has a tumultuous relationship with her mom, but he still loves her, he feels responsible for her, it's very unlikely that he would ever leave her. If you were raging at your mother, who hurt you and continues to hurt you in various ways, how would you feel about the guy who sticks with her and walks on eggshells around her and refuses to challenge her in any way. I see what you're getting at. I do wonder if she also feels disappointed by dad too, and maybe more than disappointed, maybe angry, maybe hurt.

25:50Right. Like why are you protecting this person who caused so much chaos in our lives, who hurt both of us? Why am I the only person who's standing up to her? Fair questions. In my opinion, I think our friend here probably has a lot of feelings about her dad, some wonderful, some more complicated. And I do wonder if she might've idealized him a little bit growing up or develop some blind spots when it came to dad, because acknowledging that the better parent in your home was also flawed, it's probably too painful and probably still is. Or, you know, maybe it's just hard for her to be in touch with her sadness or her anger about her dad when her mom is the more obviously problematic one.

26:27Wow, Gabe, way to ruin her relationship with both her parents. She writes in with a problem with her mom and you're like, you know what? Here's why the only relationship in your life actually has a bunch of other problems that you're not seeing. Oh man, is that what I'm doing here? I don't know. Yeah, she wrote in asking how to save her relationship with her dad. And here you are like, well, here's the problem with that relationship. Well, look, I'm not trying to poke holes in their relationship for no reason. I love that they're close. She deserves at least one good parent. But you pointed out that she cannot control ultimately that relationship, right?

26:57What I'm saying is, how does that relationship actually work? Why is your dad so important to you? Is trying this hard to make sure that you two stay close no matter what? does that itself point to some very important feelings that you might not be in touch with in a family, by the way, that probably didn't make much room for them growing up? Now, I hear you because all those feelings are informing every single line of this letter. I think so. Exactly. So here's what I'm getting at. Yes, our friend here has some legitimate reasons to pull away from mom. I think she also has some very old wounds and unresolved needs that are making her relationship with her mom even more painful and that are also probably informing her relationship with her dad.

27:36So I wonder what would happen if she pulled back a little and worked on those things, explored these feelings, these memories, and processed them some more, ideally in therapy of course, and then watched what happened to her relationship with her parents. I'm not saying her mom would magically change, or start calling her every week, or start taking a genuine interest in her life, or never cause her pain ever again. Actually, I think it's going to be the opposite. Her mom will remain exactly who she is, and our friend here would have to finally come to terms with that, you know, to grieve this mom she had, to grieve the mom she never had, to accept that her dad is also flawed, and that she can be angry with him sometimes, and that she can love him dearly.

28:16And also to stop looking to her mom to give her what she simply cannot give her, consistency, non-judgment, approval, solidarity, and to hopefully start giving herself those things. And also maybe start finding those experiences in other relationships, you know, relationships that she gets to choose and that she gets to shape as a more healed adult. If she did that, I have a feeling that she might be able to have some contact with her mom without nearly as much of the pain and that her special relationship with her father, I think that'll get stronger too. I'm not saying it's going to be an amazing relationship with her mom, but it will be a different one.

28:50I suspect a better one because she'll no longer be trying to get something from it or work something old out through it. That seems to me is ultimately impossible. Well, wow. Yeah, Gabe, I think you're right. And that process you're describing is, well, it's kind of devastating. Yeah. It's going to be hard. Yeah. Because it sort of implies giving up in some ways. And I don't know, like acknowledging defeat. Yes, totally. But that's a huge part of mourning, you know, coming to terms with that powerlessness. Oh, yeah. Well, that is very intense. But man, it's going to be so clarifying for her. and ultimately I think it's going to be empowering.

29:26So I hope you get to do that, my friend. Thank you for sharing so much with us and letting us go on about it and for letting Gabe do the exact opposite of what you asked for in your letter. I think you could tell that we dig this deep with love and curiosity. We're trying to actually get the whole reason, right? If we don't pull the thing out by the roots, we're not solving the problem. I've got a ton of confidence that you can do this. You can do the work, you can make this happen for you in the right way and that your relationship with your parents will probably be so much better for it in the long run.

29:55So get to talking and unpacking and feeling and we're sending you a big hug. You got this. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. If you are involved in a weirdly helpful possible cult, your husband won't stand up to your creepy as hell brother-in-law or your unstable entitled freeloading sister-in-law is turning your house into a living nightmare. Katarina 2.0 over there last week. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Hey, guys. I recently went to Italy for the first time, and it was a transformative time for my wife and me.

30:30In the future, I would love to be able to effectively communicate in Italian, and am setting a goal of learning the language by mid next year. That's pretty cool. I love that. Nothing like going on a trip that's so good, it makes you want to learn the language and come back. That's how we started with Korean, which led me to Chinese, right, Gabe? Oh, I didn't realize that. I thought you were already studying Chinese at the time. No, I started with Korean and she's like, yeah, Korean's hard. Don't feel bad that you're not getting it. It's as hard as Chinese. And I was like, wait, 25 million or what was it?

30:5646 million people in South Korea, 24 million disconnected people in North Korea that you'll never really talk to unless you go back there. Over a billion people in China. Right. And 1.3 billion in China and growing exponentially plus diaspora. So I was like, uh, this is as hard as Chinese. I'll be right back. I got to cancel my class here and enroll in Chinese. No, that's what started it. That makes a lot of sense. That makes sense. I didn't know that. I didn't remember. Anyway, I totally get how jazzed this guy is. This was me with Portugal. I went there, fell in love with it. I'm like, I have to learn Portuguese so I can come back here and do it right.

31:28Yes. So fun. So he goes on, I've tried some app-based methods and feel they are not always as effective or immersive as is needed. As people who are proficient in several languages, what, in your opinion, is the best way to learn a language the fastest? Any tips, pointers, or advice signed mamma mia what's your philosophy of leveling up cada dia when commonly the usual tips just lead to monotony and uh i want to be a language makina what just happened i was supposed to be i don't know what just happened i think it's makina but it was not that's not the part that's confusing that was like a whole new structure yeah i'm trying to branch out over here three different languages in there too english spanish and some terrible italian i'm glad you picked up on that.

32:14Thank you. Yeah, I think it's no, but that Makina was it's Makina. That was terrible. I think so. Yeah, I'm gonna let it slide because that rhyme scheme was truly innovative. If it was certainly innovative, but like tighten up, Gabe, you're on thin ice, thin semantic ice, dude, you try keeping the sign offs fresh every week. See if you don't start making up new words. Also, your face right now is so judgmental. The way you blinked when you said yes, innovative, you're like innovative. You look like a librarian who was disappointed that I didn't return the books on time. Yeah, look, I hear you.

32:45You're a real sign off Makina. Thank you, Makina. Yeah, I know. We all know. First of all, I love that you had this amazing trip with your wife. I love that you want to go back to Italy and have a more, is it idly, Gabriel? Are you sure it's? Italy. Italy. Italy. Traveling and then learning the life. That's my jam too. Traveling in a country where you can actually communicate with people. Way more fun, way more rewarding. It's an awesome goal. So here is my super quick crash course and the best way to learn a language. First of all, the language apps, Duolingo, Bobble, stuff like that. They're great at what they do.

33:16They're really helpful. The way they've gamified the whole experience, it keeps you engaged, even on days when you really don't feel like practicing. You don't want to lose that streak. You don't want to miss those high fives from your friends. I'm all for it. I had like a two-year streak on Duolingo before something happened and it got all screwed up and now I can't have it back and I completely abandoned it. But if you want to learn a language properly and start speaking quickly, the apps, in my opinion, they're not going to get you there on their own. I'm actually going to do a Skeptical Sunday about this kind of thing soon, but what I recommend is doing a mix of things.

33:45First, if you can swing it, get yourself a private tutor once a week, at least once a week, and find a good one. A teacher is extremely helpful in the early days. You want somebody who can help break down the deep structure, the grammar, how the weird quirks of Italian work, help you with your accent. A good coach will also want to get you speaking as quickly as possible. This is actually where a lot of people learning a new language gets stuck. They make progress on a page or on an app, but they're on like level 400 of Duolingo and then they can't even order a freaking coffee when they get to Paris because they don't learn how to talk.

34:16So I would make that a priority. Maybe hire somebody in Italy to Skype with you. I'm a big fan of LiveLingua. They teach a bunch of languages, including Italian. If you go to jordanharbinger.com slash LiveLingua, you could try a one-on-one lesson absolutely free. We'll link to that in the show notes. And of course, that helps support the show. Second, get yourself a beginner's Italian textbook or a workbook. Do a couple pages a day. in addition to your coaching and flashcards. And speaking of flashcards, these are a must. These are probably the biggest sort of heavy lifting that you're going to do with a language.

34:48A lot of language learning is just memorizing words for things. You can make them by hand the old-fashioned way. That's useful because you're writing, but then you can't really take them with you because you got a whole case of them at some point. You can use a flashcard app like Anki. I'm a big fan of Anki because it uses spaced repetition, which is super effective. It's called SRS. Also, Anki is a platform where people can create their own vocabulary packs. You can literally download these packs pre-made. They're like 100, 200, 500 words or packs of words that are about a specific topic. And if you study those every day, you're going to be rocking and rolling in no time.

35:21I know thousands of them in Chinese and it's taken years. Learning them where the alphabet is the same and there's a lot of cognates is going to be so easy. Jordan loves talking about that because he loves to bring up that he has to memorize characters and we just get to basically use the same alphabet and it's not nearly as impressive. It's not. Just so you know why he brought that up. He just wanted to flex. Right. It's not nearly as impressive, just so you know. And the other thing I do, I would start consuming a little bit of Italian content every day. That could be a kid's show on YouTube, like watch Italian Sesame Street or something like that.

35:51They'll teach you the ABCs, counting. That stuff's great. I'm sure there are Italian TV shows on Netflix. Turn on the subtitles, write down five or 10 words per episode that you don't know, make flashcards out of them, start practicing the accent. This could be a news program. It could be a podcast. Those are great because you end up learning words that are actually useful. Plus, you're getting smart on what's happening in Italy specifically. And by the way, listening to the news, that'll also give you another point of connection when you visit. Your Airbnb host or your hotel concierge or some person sitting next to you on the train, they are going to be blown away when you turn to them and you're like, so, you just had elections, right?

36:25What's going on with all this EU drama? Did you see that show about the Italian smugglers on Netflix? Locals love tourists like that. They're going to be just beyond impressed and charmed by you, not just because you speak Italian, but because you actually care about their country. And if you do all that, you're going to be speaking Italian in no time, I think. Yeah, I almost heard you say in the no time. You know, Jordan, the other day, I asked you how long you study Chinese every day, because like I said, I'm studying Portuguese and I'm trying to stay consistent with it. And I was really surprised when you told me that you only do like 15 minutes a day.

36:57That has been a game changer for me because I used to think, oh, if I'm not studying Portuguese for an hour, an hour and a half every day. It's not worth it. Yikes. And then days would go by and I would neglect it. And then I would feel behind when I met with my tutor and it would be stressful and it stopped being fun. So now I just do 15 or 20 minutes a day and I teach myself, you know, like five new verbs, or I watch a few minutes of a Brazilian show on Netflix, or I look up the lyrics to a song in Portuguese because I love Portuguese music and I'll, you know, I'll translate the lyrics and then I'll write down a few words and then I'll put it down for the day.

37:27Just doing a tiny bit every day is so much more effective than going ham once or twice a week. For sure. It's about consistency and frequency. That is the name of the game. And so if you're trying to say like, look, if you live in Portugal, by all means, you should be meeting with a tutor every day for an hour, hour and a half, studying on your own for an hour. Like if you're treating it like it's your job to learn, then it's your job to learn. But if this is like a hobby that's kind of fun, giving yourself an hour of work, especially repetitive language work every day is a fast track to just burning out immediately so look i hope this helps man i'm very pumped for you italian is going to be such a fun language not that hard you're going to be rolling around italy hitting up those double r's and wildly gesticulating with your hands like a regular tom ripley in no time hopefully not like tom ripley he murdered people murdering people and stealing their amex checks let's not do that different guy and let us know how the trip goes i'm so envious have fun you know what else you should be doing consistently, patronizing the amazing sponsors who support this show.

38:27Torniamo subito.

38:53It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, next up. So we're going to do something a little different for this next one. We recently got two emails that were both asking a similar question, a really great question. So we wanted to take both and see if these letters could speak to each other. So here's the first one. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm a 52-year-old mom of six. and for the last 16 years, I've worked in the adoption and foster care world as a behavior consultant to kids and families. I'm good at my job, and I make okay money for a frontline worker at a social service agency.

39:29But there's no opportunity for advancement in my field, and I don't see myself doing this for the rest of my life. I've gotten excited at various points about more entrepreneurial ideas that could help others, such as homeownership for the unhoused, daycare for developmentally delayed children whose parents can't get them into typical daycare, or home-like housing for dementia patients. I have so many exciting ideas that can make a real difference in people's lives, and a lot of talent, knowledge, and experience, but I haven't been able to narrow things down to one idea that really lights my fire.

40:01I don't want to be one of those people with a solution looking for a problem. I want to start where there's a genuine need. Where do I start? How do I narrow down my list? Any suggestions? signed an old hand trying to suss out the demand for my grand plans. I know we have a second letter coming, but I just want to say what an amazing person this listener is and what noble ideas. Totally. These potential ventures, helping the unhoused, serving developmentally delayed children, taking care of dementia patients. I mean, this woman is like doing God's work or insert higher powers work. For sure. For some of you, that's Taylor Swift, apparently.

40:35Man, I did not see Taylor Swift as our Lord and Savior becoming a runner on the show, but it makes me laugh every time we say it. And I know a lot of people feel that way. Anyway, yes, I totally agree with you. This listener is amazing. So here's the second letter. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. My husband and I recently adopted a baby girl. And while some people wait years to be matched, we were quickly matched in four months. Okay, that is fast. Congratulations. So awesome. I love these adoption stories. So touching. So she goes on. Since I've been on parental leave, I've been dreading returning to my nine to five as a director of nursing care at a long-term care home.

41:09I like my job, but it's a 30-minute drive from home, and I want to be here more for my daughter while she grows up. Plus, I've had the entrepreneur bug since I was young. When we were adopting, I made my adoption profile book from scratch, digitally, and my social worker told me, there's really good money in that if you like doing it. I don't have a tech background, and I have a limited understanding of this business, which gives me pause, but I'm very creative and think that my success in adopting had to do with how I presented our profile book, The birth parents even said that. So I'd like to start a company that helps people create their adoption profile books in a unique way.

41:44The other thing that gives me pause is that I was making over$100 ,000 in my job, which is hard to find, and my spouse and I lived very well. So this would be a huge lifestyle change, especially if I'm not successful. What should I do? Do I risk it and change things up? What if I fail? Signed, a new mom torn between detonating this bomb and diving in with a plum. Right. So we get versions of this question quite a bit. Should I go all in on my startup? Should I go full time on my side hustle? How do I decide which idea to pursue? And it's a frankly, it's a really tough one for us to answer. But like Gabe said, these two letters, they really do bring to life one of the most important factors in launching a company, creating a product, turning a hobby into a business, which is what do people actually want?

42:31What does the world actually need? The woman in the first letter has all these incredible ideas. She has the talent. She has the experience. She has the passion, which is beautiful. But like she said, she doesn't want to be one of those people with a solution looking for a problem. And by the way, I love that she's already onto that. I mean, that's already a huge step forward. She's already avoided wasting years doing something that doesn't actually work. I agree, because that is one of the biggest mistakes that entrepreneurs and small business owners make. Right. They think that finding an idea or an industry that they are excited about, even when they could be really great at, they think that that's enough.

43:02But the reality is, no matter how good you are at executing on an idea, if nobody wants the thing that you're offering, it's just never going to work. Being skilled, being passionate, that is half the equation. The other half is finding a problem that actually needs fixing, which is the best proxy that I know for assessing demand. And I would argue, and people way smarter than me have talked about this, you usually have to start there first, and then you work your way back to what you're good at, what you care about. Which is why the second letter is so interesting to me. Yes, because that listener, she ended up stumbling into a really interesting problem that couples looking to adopt need to create these profile books.

43:39And it's a big ask. It's heavy lift. And it's an important task. And that makes it really valuable. And then she's gotten some data that there's good money in it. And only then did she go, huh, OK, I'm really good at this. Maybe I can be the one that meets this need for other people. And the fact that she is the customer herself, that really helps. For sure, because she knows firsthand what her customers truly need. She understands the ins and outs, right? She's not having to take a bunch of survey data to find out if her idea is valid to the person who would buy it. So my advice to the first listener is you need to go figure out which specific problems and opportunities exist in these industries and in these segments.

44:16So obviously, look, unhoused people, they need homes. But how do they get those homes? Where do the government agencies that provide housing struggle in the first place? Is your user the unhoused person or is it the government official or agency trying to help them? Same thing with developmentally disabled children. Where's the gap in their daycare options? What kind of daycare do they actually need? Where do parents of these children have a hard time? Ditto for dementia patients. Same questions. What's the problem? Where are these people and their families not being served right now? And who are the stakeholders, right?

44:49Because is it the state? Is it an agency? Is it a nursing home that subcontracts? It's not like you, right? You don't even know who your customer is. You just know who the end user is. Those are two different things when it comes to stuff like this some of the time. And I think it's amazing that you have so many exciting ideas that could make a real difference in people's lives. I applaud you. The world needs you. But you need to look at these things from the other side and figure out what exactly the world needs from you. Now, the answer might not fall into your lap the way it did with the second listener.

45:15So you might have to do some legwork here. I think you're going to have to do some legwork for sure. My advice there is talk to as many people in those fields as possible. You probably already have a ton of connections. Suss out where the pain points in their jobs are, where the gaps exist. what they need these days, that might take some time. It might take months, maybe even years, but that is time very well spent because it'll massively increase your chances of success. I would also study the adoption and the foster care worlds. I know you want to leave that field, but it's a field you know really well.

45:43You already have a lot of relationships there. You have a good reputation. And I have to imagine that there are plenty of things in that world that need fixing as well. Now for our second listener, I love that you found this business. You have a great shot at making it work, you have some skills to learn. There are a lot of unknowns, but this sounds super promising. The best advice I can offer you is start very small, prove this concept with a small number of clients. Maybe you get the adoption agency you worked with to introduce you to a few people looking to adopt. Maybe you don't even charge them at first or you charge them very little and you treat that as a test run.

46:15You're going to learn so much from that first batch of customers, what the whole process looks like from meeting a new customer to learning their story to translating it into a compelling pitch to delivering a finished book, what kind of tech you need, what kind of design skills you need, how long the whole thing takes, what people's budgets are, that's going to help determine your price point. My suggestion is to treat this like an experiment, a learning opportunity. And if it goes well and you enjoy it, you can turn it into a side hustle while you keep your high paying job. If that goes well and it can sustain you on its own and it can take you years to get to that point, only then would I make that leap.

46:50But I wouldn't put the cart before the horse and just dive right in. I mean, sure, you could risk it all and succeed massively. There's a chance. But you could also put yourself in a very stressful situation, put a ton of pressure on this idea to succeed, when really all you need to do is prove that people want this thing and slowly scale up. That way, if you fail, you won't have turned your whole life upside down or compromised your family by pursuing an idea before you proved it was viable. But also, if you do fail, that's part of the entrepreneurial journey too. And all I can tell you there is, you got to make peace with the idea that you might fail.

47:22Every business owner has to embrace that, but the best way to hedge against failure is to move deliberately, prove the concept, gather as much data as possible, and keep iterating. That'll tell you everything that you need to know. And by the way, it's okay for this to remain a side hustle for you, as long as it's earning enough money to justify your time and you're enjoying it. That's important to remember too. A lot of people rush into this stuff and they end up hating their hobby or their passion. That's said. You might also want to work up to outsourcing the time-intensive non-core parts of the business so that you can manage the company and or just do the tasks that you truly enjoy.

47:55For example, you might be super gifted at capturing people's adoption stories for these books, but that does not mean you need to spend 16 hours in Photoshop every week building the layout for the books. So thank you both for writing in. It is so interesting that you both come from the adoption world. I love your creativity. I love your drive, your entrepreneurial spirits, and I know they're going to lead you to some great places and good luck. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I have a younger brother I've considered a best friend for most of my life. A few years ago, right before COVID, he moved out of state to complete a medical residency.

48:28When COVID hit, he started working long hours and he lost some patience to COVID. Any communication I had with him back then was intense. He often sounded terrified and got very angry about people not masking or vaccinating. He stopped coming home for holidays, funerals, even my own wedding in 2023. At one point, our father was in the ICU and put on a ventilator. My brother wouldn't come home to say goodbye, despite the doctor saying that our dad would die. Fortunately, our dad survived and was dumbfounded that my brother didn't come home. Wow. Okay. That's quite a stance. So obviously this is very distressing to your brother, but he's really taken this COVID thing to 11.

49:11I mean, missing your parents' potential death because you're afraid of getting COVID? That's a big deal. And I'm understating that. Obviously something deeper going on here. Yeah. Watch. By the end of this episode, you'll have ruined this poor woman's relationship with her father as well. I wasn't ruining that other person's relationship with her father. I was just, you know. Yeah, we know. You're just feedback Friday-ing. Yeah. As usual. You know, just listening. Just snuffling around. Snufflers gonna snuffle. Yeah, exactly. So she goes on, My brother finished his residency a year ago, but then left the field entirely.

49:41He's now working a virtual job that's outside of his profession so that he doesn't have to leave his house. Oh, man, that is so sad. Yeah, so he's not even a doctor anymore, I guess? Apparently not. Yeah, that's a big thing to give up. Wow. Then last year in 2023, he announced that he wouldn't be moving back home due to his family and friends, quote, not taking COVID seriously anymore, unquote. quote, even though my family, a lot of his friends and I all agreed to follow whatever precautions he wanted while he visited. But he said that that's not enough. He cut off his entire group of friends, including ones he's been friends with since grade school.

50:18Oof. Okay, so he's isolating hard and cutting people off. It's so interesting, Gabe. We're talking about COVID here, but the outlines of the story, they sound a lot like somebody who's in a cult or who's a hardline fundamentalist of some kind. Well, I mean, he is, right? Although beneath all fundamentalism is always something more tender. Yeah, this dude is traumatized and it's really gotten to him. Like this is a deep wound. I haven't seen my brother for four and a half years and I recently asked to bring our parents to visit him. He declined saying that he doesn't trust us to follow the masking and social distancing requirements while we're with him.

50:50I've tried to include him in family Zoom gatherings, but he's declined those too because he gets really mad if not everyone is masking. What? On a Zoom call? He's not even there. I don't understand that one at all. No, that's... Upset and anxious by proxy for that? I don't get it. That's not healthy. When I've tried to talk to him about this, he gets very upset and tells me that I'm participating in eugenics and a mass disabling event anytime that I go out. I'm sorry to say this, but your brother is sounding more and more unhinged. We've had plenty of times over the years where we've not completely been on the same page, but this is very different.

51:26There's no flexibility. He wants full agreement for me that I will mask and not go to public spaces anymore in order to stop the spread. Wait, what? So he's like, don't go anywhere, but also make sure you wear a mask when you don't go anywhere. What is he talking about? Yeah, that makes no sense. First of all, not his business. But second of all, like stopping COVID falls on you slash is even possible at this point? Oh, man. I've tried to provide information from what I believe are reputable sources about the current state of things. But for every study I find, he finds an opposing one. It seems like all of his decisions are made out of fear and my heart breaks for him.

52:04I miss him so much. What would you do in my situation? Signed, aghast at the task of reaching my brother behind this mask. Well, this is a tough one. So as you can obviously tell, we're both finding your brother's position on all this. It's absurd, right? I mean, if this were 2020 or 2021, I guess I get it. COVID was scary back then. We didn't know a lot about it. We were doing our best. There was a lot of conflicting information. But now this position is totally impractical. It's misguided. It's militant. And I feel it's pretty presumptuous. But to be telling you guys how you need to be living your lives and not just around him, given where we are in the pandemic, it doesn't make any sense.

52:43And look, if your brother, if this guy was severely immunocompromised, if your dad were immunocompromised, that is a different story. I have a couple of friends. They got serious health stuff. They still wear masks to the grocery store and to parties and stuff. They're careful about what they do and where they go, because if they get COVID again, it could theoretically kill them much more than it could hurt any one of us. And fine, I get it. But they're still going to Ralph's. They still go to the party. They're just not demanding that the entire world change for them. They're just taking care of themselves.

53:12Right. That is not what her brother is doing. He's doing way the other direction. No, what he's doing is blaming you guys for not taking COVID seriously, which is not true. You guys have offered to take all the precautions that he wants. And he's blaming you for participating in eugenics and creating, what did he say, a mass disabling event for catching a movie? What is that actually? What does that mean? Here's the thing. I bet if you Google those in quotes, you find some kooky ass conspiracy theory. And that's where this guy's getting all of his information. Because eugenics has Nazi connotations, the latest iteration anyway.

53:47And mass disabling event sounds like something that you would hear on InfoWars or something. So actually, it's not super conspiratorial. Apparently, the COVID pandemic has been called a mass disabling event since early on because it's a once in a generational public health crisis that could shape millions of people's lives forever. Okay. At least with this phrase. He's not super conspiratorial, but it is very extra. Tell me about the participating in eugenics thing. Like what happens here? That one's different. There are overtones of all sorts of stuff. What is the story that he's telling that they are doing this?

54:18Well, participating in eugenics means you're sort of willingly doing something that is killing off other folks, which eugenics, for those who don't know, this is a pseudoscience where, again, in the latest iterations, bad actors use it to say, oh, well, we want to breed proper humans. That sounds very Nazi, right? So we're going to kill disabled people and we're going to kill people who are homosexuals and Jews and Roma. That's what the Nazis were doing. That was a eugenics program. They wanted to breed out people they thought were inferior or weak. That's what this guy is saying. But what he's saying is that if you don't wear a mask and you go get COVID or you spread COVID, then you are trying to kill off certain vulnerable people.

55:01And so you are essentially doing eugenics by going to the store. That's what he's saying, right? That's just ridiculous, though, because it's not your genetics that necessarily decide if you are going to die from COVID. There's a zillion comorbidities. But also, they're not intentionally doing that. Yeah, you're right. Anyway, it's stupid. What we're trying to do right now, you, Gabriel, me, and this gal here who wrote in, we are trying to logic somebody who has come to a decision completely emotionally, right? We are trying to logic somebody out of a position that they did not come to logically.

55:36Does that make sense? Yeah, although he thinks he's being very logical, which is the scary part. That's why she can come up with a study and he will just look wherever he can to find a study of whatever level of repute, even if it comes from some YouTuber that contradicts it because he has motivated reasoning and cognitive bias and he's completely blind to it. So look, anyway, even if he were right about some of this, the COVID cat's out of the bag, man. We all got it slash we'll get it. some people get it worse than others. Very few people die from it now. It is just a reality. You all know I am not anti-science.

56:08I am not anti-mask. I am not anti-let's-be-safe-when-there's a pandemic. I was happy to mask up and keep my distance when that seemed like the answer. I ripped that mask off as soon as we didn't really need it anymore. That's not the answer anymore. It's not necessary. It's not effective. It's not practical. And again, I'm sorry to say this, but your brother, he sounds like a loony tune. And the problem is he is very entrenched in his position. Based on what you've shared, I'm not sure how you're supposed to get through to him. Well, he doesn't want anyone to get through. That's the problem. There might have been a window to have a rational conversation with him while his position was still solidifying, while the jello was still liquid in the refrigerator is when you would have gotten to him about this.

56:46But now I don't know, man, the things you're doing to get through to him, offering to play by his rules, still not good enough for him. He just keeps moving the goal posts, which is infuriating because it's like, do you want us to mask and distance or not? You can't tell us to do that. And then we say, sure, we promise to do that. No problem. And then you turn around and say, no, I don't trust you to do it. Right. Which one is it? Well, that's literally insane. And that's what I mean by moving the goalposts. Like you agree to his kooky demands. And then he's like, well, actually, I don't trust you to do it.

57:13What could make you change your mind on this? Nothing. He's in a cult. It's not science. It's insanity. You're sharing data with him from reputable sources, trying to engage with him rationally. You think a doctor would respond well to that. But then as a doctor, he's well equipped to just push back. But his sources are dubious. If he's reading the right sources, COVID is not that bad. And then you're trying to talk to him about this and see if there's any flexibility. I mean, these are all things we'd recommend. So I'm a little stumped here, Gabe. I worry that this guy is too far gone and that she and her family now just kind of have to accept that he's gone off the deep end and they cannot have a normal relationship with this guy.

57:45Oh, man, this is really sad. He's ultimately depriving himself of a normal, full life, and he's missing all of these wonderful moments with his family. Like, I'm super sad about this. It's super tragic. But like we touched on, I'm also trying to figure out how in the world this guy got here. Obviously, this all goes back to his time in his residency, which sounds like an extremely difficult chapter, as it was for so many health care workers. He was probably working crazy hours, not sleeping, felt out of control. He lost patience. He had a front row seat to how bad COVID was in the early days. It really does sound like he was legitimately traumatized by that period.

58:20I'm still reeling a little bit from the fact that he quit being a doctor, this prestigious career that he worked so hard for. And now he's working a remote job at a dropshipping company or something, so he doesn't have to leave the house. It must have been really bad for him to do a 180 like that. But how many other doctors did this? Very few, I'd imagine. There's something about the way he handled it that led him to this place. Right. So we probably have to rewind the tape even more. What kind of guy was he before the pandemic, before medical school? How did he handle stress and adversity leading up to that point?

58:51Were there any signs of fragility before all of this? Did he hold other hardline views in other areas before all this? Right. Another good question, because two different people with different life experiences, different personalities, different values, they can go through the same adverse experience and they can come out completely differently. So there must have been something about her brother that made him so vulnerable to the pandemic. Or the pandemic activated a part of him that was dormant. Yes. And then when he began to isolate, you can just imagine, I mean, very few close friends, maybe no close friends because he's cut everybody off.

59:22No family time. I'm assuming no therapist or, you know, trusted guide and no one to help him process his feelings, no one to keep him grounded, open to other data or points of view. It's a disaster. It's almost like he got radicalized. He self-radicalized. Right. And then he created the conditions for that worldview to just not be challenged in any way. I think our friend here is right. His decisions are made out of fear. This guy is freaked out. But what is underneath that fear? What is the fear protecting? I don't know. He's got to have some tender spots and some wounds. Some predisposition, for sure.

59:56So if you have any hope of helping your brother work through this, I think it's going to be by helping him address that stuff or at least start by acknowledging it. But then we're back to the main problem again. This guy just does not want to. Right. And if he doesn't want to, then what are you going to do? But if you haven't tried this yet, you could ask him, hey, how are you feeling, bud? How are you doing? What's on your mind? You know, how's life treating you? Assuming he can stomach a FaceTime with you. I'm assuming he won't ask you to mask up if you're on the phone alone with him. But who knows?

1:00:23See if he'll talk to you a little bit. I wouldn't even mention COVID. I would just stay focused on him. And if he does open up to you, then yeah, you can validate what he's feeling. You can help him acknowledge his stress, his fear, his passion for COVID. You might need to start by making him feel understood and cared for without trying to immediately change his mind. Yeah, I'm with you. And that could take a while. But given the facts here, I'm just not sure how much hope she can have for him changing. So this letter, like so many letters we receive, I think it's really about mourning. Your brother didn't die, of course, but in a way, a part of him did.

1:00:56The brother you had before did. And I genuinely hope he comes out of this and re-engages with you guys. I really do, but he might not. And so your story, to me, it's really about coming to terms with the sadness and the frustration, the general WTF of having a brother who cannot relate to you guys, who is vigorously defending his right to protect his fear over working through whatever's created that fear and of bearing the grief of missing him as much as you do, which is just awful. I'm so sorry it's happening. I mean, I wish you could convince the guy to go see a therapist. That's what I wish.

1:01:29I was about to say, if you could encourage him to see a therapist or a psychiatrist, obviously he desperately needs to talk to somebody and process some of the stuff. I think most importantly, the time at the hospital, the trauma he experienced there. But the other reason is I hear some pretty extreme anxiety in your brother's story. There are also shades of paranoia in it, too. And also a kind of it's interesting, Jordan, I hear like a like a little bit of grandiosity, maybe not a little bit, kind of a lot like I'm going to be the one to stop COVID. I'm the one who knows more than everybody else.

1:01:58You know, everybody needs to listen to me. I do worry that there might be something psychiatric going on here. Yeah, this might be more than a doctor being super conservative. He could have, I mean, it sounds like maybe an anxiety disorder. He could have OCD. He could be bipolar. Mania and grandiosity can be symptoms of that. There might even be something schizoid going on here, although the chances are probably low. But yeah, I would love for him to see someone. Look, this grief, it's yours to work through. You're stepping into the reality of my brother's traumatized and frightened. He's choosing to isolate and I have to make peace with that.

1:02:29Just that idea might be a big step forward for you. But my heart breaks for you and your parents, man, especially your parents, your poor dad, to know that his son wouldn't come home when he was about to die. I'm just so sorry that you're going through it. I'm mostly sorry for your brother who's missing life. And I hope he returns to that one day. But as we always seem to come back to here on the show, that's up to him. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out the episodes with Dr. Fauci and our Skeptical Sunday on participation trophies, if you haven't heard those yet.

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1:04:06Show notes and transcripts are on the website, advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show.

1:04:36Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview trailer of our interview with Mike Rowe. host of Discovery's Dirty Jobs and Returning the Favor, on why the advice, follow your passion, is complete BS. Follow your passion, as a bromide, is precisely what 98 % of the people do who audition for American Idol. And they're lined up.

1:05:12Thousands of people who have been told, if you believe something deeply enough, and if you want something bad enough, and if you truly embrace the essence of persistence, and your passion, if you let your passion lead you, Stick with it. Well, following your passion is terrific advice if the passion is taking you to a place where opportunity and your own set of skills will be able to coexist. Passion is something that all of the dirty jobbers that I met possessed in spades. They just weren't doing anything that looked aspirational. So it was confusing. So the guy in a plaid shirt sipping a cappuccino, that doesn't make sense.

1:05:51Well, guess what? Neither does a septic tank cleaner worth a million dollars. That guy had a million dollar business? I actually counted them up once. I could be wrong by a couple, but I put over 40 people that we featured on Dirty Jobs as multimillionaires. Passion isn't the enemy. It's just not the thing you want pulling the train. But look, I don't say don't follow your passion. I say never follow your passion, but always bring it with you. For more with Mike Rowe, including a behind-the-scenes look at some of his shows, and why we shouldn't view a blue-collar career pursuit as a cautionary tale, check out episode 264 right here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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