1069: Can Doc's Fault Be Denied in Friend's Suicide? | Feedback Friday

23:10That's funny, yeah. But that's what I mean, right? Everyone on dating apps is going through this. And the apps themselves make people kind of disposable because you're like one swipe away and then you don't go back. It's like, ah, whatever. And that sucks. That's a flawed system in many ways. To be honest, I'm not sure if I should even be in a relationship. I'm highly independent with a great life. I have a handle on my career, hobbies that fulfill my creative side, great friends, and family support. And since I don't want to have children, I don't feel an impending timeline to find a partner.

23:42Relationships take a ton of work, and I don't think I want to put my energy towards something with such a low probability of making me happier. What I feel I would get out of a partnership, emotional support, help around the house, physical intimacy, intellectual conversations, doesn't seem to outweigh the hard work that a good relationship entails. Am I just burned out in the dating world? Is my conflict avoidance holding me back from finding something awesome? Signed, continuing to swipe right When I don't want to bite, fight, or disrupt my great life Wow, what an interesting letter Really took a turn there in the second half It started off like, dating apps suck And turned into, am I even meant for partnership in this life?

24:20Which is obviously a much deeper question So, look, it's possible that you were just burned out in the dating world My sense, speaking as a married father of two Who's been out of the dating game for a decade Yeah, did you take yourself off the table even before Tinder came out? So, it's funny you should mention that because I remember very specifically, Tinder was brand new and I'm in LA and I'm swiping and I'm like, these photos don't look real. And I put my profile on there and I was like, no, these are all like oddly professional. The women are a little bit too good looking for just a random dating app.

24:54And then it came out like, yeah, these are just kind of like start, they're just fake. It was just fake nonsense so that the app wasn't empty. Oh, interesting. And it didn't really work. And I got a couple of matches, but it was like people I would never really be interested in. and I was just swiping right on everyone, which is what most men do in these apps, which is why they're flawed initially. But yeah, that was right in the beginning. And then I met Jen, and I was like, whatever. And I remember for months and months and months after that, Jen's friends were like, I don't want to pry or meddle, but I saw Jordan on Tinder.

25:21And she's like, I know, because he's tried to delete his thing there a zillion times, and it doesn't work. Oh, wow. And I've emailed them, because they didn't want people to delete their profile, because if people leave, it shrinks the user pool. So for a while, they either had, air quotes, an error or simply did not allow you to really take yourself off the app it was just there and i remember up to a year later people were like i saw jordan on tinder and she's like i know yeah we've we've tried it's not we can't do anything about that not a great look for a dating coach they're like he's a total cat he's still hanging out still hooking up even though it's like even when jen and i live together people would be like he's on tinder and it's like yeah but his location says la and he hasn't touched the thing and she's like i remember she was like are you on there and I was like, check my phone.

26:06The app is not even on my phone. I don't have any idea. We logged in and it was still like two matches. So obviously the photo was not effective. Yeah, but it was just like, yes. So yes, Tinder was brand new when I was out of the market. That's a long way to say I look like a loser online. Perfect. Anyway, it's exhausting. It takes time. You get excited. You lose interest. That's what apps are. People pop up. They go away unless they want to go away, in which case it's impossible for them to go away. But yes, it's totally possible that you are a little run down and out of inspiration. But your second question makes me think there's probably a lot more going on here.

26:38You're highly independent. You're self-sufficient. You have a very rich life. You're fulfilled in all these other ways, which those are wonderful qualities. I commend you for them. Honestly, you sound like a catch. And these qualities, especially the highly independent thing and the self-sufficiency thing, those can also be a response to certain fears or conflicts around partnership. Your story might be, I don't need a partner. I'm highly independent. I got all these other sources of fulfillment and connection. Or the story might be, I'm highly independent. I have all these other sources of fulfillment and connection because I'm somewhat averse to being in an intimate relationship and everything that that entails.

27:12And actually, I kind of maybe suspect that both of these things are true. Both, yeah. It's hard to say which one came first. Absolutely. When you say relationships take a ton of work and I don't think I want to put my energy towards something with such a low probability of making me happier. Eh, quite a statement, isn't it? A lot going on in that sentence. First of all, the idea that any relationship she ends up in is going to be more of a burden than a gift. Which, yes, relationships obviously take work. They're not always fun. But she's already anticipating that it will be more work than it will be joy.

27:43And second, that a romantic relationship has a low probability of making her happier. Which, to your point, Jordan, in one way that speaks to how awesome she already is. A partner would just be a bonus in her life. and in another way, it might kind of speak to a cynicism that could serve to keep her unencumbered. Right. But also to be fair to her, that might be a fair conclusion to draw based on the people she's seeing on these apps. If she's losing interest a lot, maybe she's just not very impressed by the dating pool and she's like, why even bother? Yeah, she's like, these jabronis? I don't think so.

28:14Could be. I also wonder if the being interested in people and then suddenly being uninterested in them thing, feeling somewhat judgmental, feeling flaky, feeling inconsistent, if those are also symptoms of a process that she's going through when it comes to dating. Like maybe these people on the apps are super lame and she's just like, I thought they were interesting. I'm over it now. But she might also be in touch with certain feelings like excitement or hope or just vulnerability that she then feels the need on some level to temper or shut down. And what that looks like is I'm getting flaky, I'm inconsistent, I'm losing interest.

28:51But it might actually be one more way to distance herself from people. Well, that's an interesting theory. And it kind of fits in some way I can't quite put my finger on with her other big question. Is my conflict avoidance holding me back from finding something awesome? Yes, which is a really good question. Yeah, it's super interesting because she actually didn't mention anything about the conflict avoidance until then. But it sounds like she's onto herself here a little bit. She's saying the hard work involved in a good relationship won't be worth it. But what she might really be saying is, I'm afraid of doing all that hard work.

29:22Exactly. Or I'm put off by the idea of having to do that hard work with somebody. Yeah. Which might be her anticipating the discomfort of confronting a very real other person with their own stuff in a relationship. And also maybe some, I don't know, maybe a little bit of shame about being vulnerable and intimate with somebody in the first place. Again, it's so hard to know how we really feel about things sometimes because, I mean, our stories about ourselves, about other people, about how we feel about dating or how our lives work, they can be so clever. On one level, we're hearing from an accomplished, self-sufficient person who doesn't need a partner to be happy, who might not even really want a partner because her life is already pretty great.

30:01And on another level, we're hearing from an accomplished, self-sufficient person who does want a partner. Otherwise, she wouldn't be on the apps, right? But who might also have some fears and conflicts around partnership, which might have led her, in part to be this accomplished, self-sufficient, occasionally little judgmental or flaky person in the first place. I don't think she would be writing in with this question if she absolutely did not want a partner in her life. I think she knows that there's a part of her that does want it and is ready to confront the part of her that doesn't want it.

30:31For sure, wow, insightful. The question she's grappling with is, is it worth the cost? Is there a net gain here or am I just gonna be staying up till midnight every other night talking to my partner so we can make it work when I'm already freaking happy? which is funny because you can tell she's kind of like type A, like I think about everything rationally, which I can dig that. My thoughts there are, if you find the right person, and that can be hard, but it's not impossible, when you find the right person, it is worth the cost. And the cost, it won't feel like a cost. It feels more like a rewarding investment that leads to more closeness, more growth, ultimately more joy.

31:01Now that doesn't mean it'll always be fun. It doesn't mean you'll never feel difficult feelings. You obviously will. But with the right person, the relationship becomes a way to explore and address and hopefully heal a lot of that stuff. And that's what it's all about. So my advice to you is keep a hand in the dating world, whether it's on the apps or going out or just generally being open to people. It's okay to take breaks. It's okay to be a little flaky on there. I wouldn't hide from the world. And sure, keep having high standards. Keep being discerning. Like I said, you sound like a catch.

31:29You deserve somebody great. But also notice how those standards and judgments operate for you. If they're moving you closer to the kind of person you want, that's great. If they're moving you away from people in general, that's a moment to check in with yourself and see if you're self-protecting a little bit too much. And yes, wanting to avoid conflict will be an obstacle to having close, meaningful relationships, romantic or otherwise, but this is not an insurmountable obstacle. Everybody has that fear to some degree. We all need to learn how to speak up, assert our needs, hear someone out, risk hurting them, have difficult conversations.

32:02It's a skill just like any other, but it's a skill that can touch on some very tender parts of one's personality. And those are the parts you might need to build up just a little bit. My hope for you, and this is gonna sound weird, my hope for you is that you meet some interesting people, you get into some little fights along the way, I think that'd be great practice for you. And then you'll know what your capacity for conflict really is, whether it's worth it for you. You're in a nice position. You don't need a partner to survive. You don't need someone to fulfill you in every way. You're not on an urgent timeline.

32:32A person would just be a bonus. So if you engage with anyone, You're doing it because you want to. What I'm hearing you want is to grow, both as an individual and as a partner. So stay in the game. The apps will always be annoying to some degree, but you can make them slightly less annoying in the way that you relate to people. And you don't need to meet everyone. You just need to meet one. Love your curiosity, love your courage. You got this. Good luck. I gotta say, Gabe, I do not envy people using apps to date now. I just feel like it's one hand tied, two hands tied behind your back, dating-wise, with this stuff.

33:02Unless you're like super hot, in which case then you're going to get a ton of matches and then the game is screen out all the jack wads, which takes more time, is harder probably, now that I think about it. Anyway, a problem I'll never have. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If your father-in-law is sending you on family business trips to a war zone, your Holocaust denying nephew has eaten up the family estate with his inheritance, or your boyfriend has been accused of abusing his children and you don't know who to believe, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

33:37We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, comes out every Wednesday. It's a two-minute read. It's a great companion to the show and it's highly practical. It's just a bite-sized gem that you can apply right away. jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. All right, what's up next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I run a small business in the Midwest that is part music school, part after school program. The kids study music, but they also learn accountability to others, setting and meeting goals, practical application of skills, stuff like that.

34:09I'm also big on nurturing a strong culture amongst those associated with my business, from the kids to their families to my staff, which means the kids tend to form strong relationships with our instructors. They act less like teachers and more like respected coaches that the kids look up to. So the instructors I hire obviously need to have a solid music skill set, but a great attitude and knowing how to be a cheerleader for the students is almost more important. I do background checks to ensure that I'm hiring people with a clean record, but I've also had to learn to be a strong judge of character.

34:40I feel I've become pretty good at this, but just like any relationship, nuanced aspects of a person's personality generally present over time. Recently, I was having a casual conversation with one of my newer hires, and he started talking about a documentary he watched on YouTube about the government's experimentation with MKUltra. As he continued to passionately talk about his beliefs, he disclosed that he doesn't believe the earth is round. I was having a conversation with a legitimate flat earther. I was more baffled than anything else. But now I find myself slightly concerned about some of the beliefs this instructor holds and the influence he could have on the students.

35:18The kids he works with are between 8 and 14 years old, impressionable enough to believe some of the crazy theories to which he subscribes. While I'm not aware of this employee sharing his flat earth beliefs with any of his students, I'm not sure what I can or should do if it ever happens. While I don't agree with this employee's beliefs, I also feel a responsibility to make sure that he feels as comfortable as any other employee should this information about his beliefs get out to other staff members. Are flat earth beliefs protected under employment laws in any way? What responsibilities do I have to the students at my music school and their parents?

35:52Can I share what I've learned about this employee with other employees who may benefit from this information? How would you handle this? Signed, hoping I don't catch flack for my employees' ideas being whack. Gabe, whenever I hear about flat earthers, I'm always like, are you serious, man? I can kind of appreciate some other conspiracy theories, even if I totally disagree with them. I can usually make out some kind of weird logic, like 5G towers cause COVID. Okay, well, they were putting up 5G towers at the same time COVID happened. Like it's bad science, but it's, you know, like, okay, there's a coincidence there.

36:25People are scared. They don't understand 5G. They don't understand COVID. Okay. I get it. I disagree, but I get it. But flat earth is just, it is the dumbest possible bargain basement conspiracy theory. It has no basis in reality. You have to be a truly next level moron, dumber than even the Holocaust denier we heard about a couple of weeks ago to believe the earth is actually flat. There are experiments that we did in middle school that you can do yourself at home right now that will prove that either the earth is curved or entirely round, and then tell your friend in Australia to do it, and when they have the same results, you have your answer.

36:59So working with somebody like this, especially when they're an educator, in quotes, obviously, I get why it's throwing you for a loop, why you're tied up in knots about this. Although the fact that this guy believes the earth is flat as opposed to, say, that the Jews made up the Holocaust, I do think that lowers the stakes here a little bit. True. This is definitely like on the quadrant. This is in the ridiculous quadrant and not the dangerous quadrant. Correct. But it's dangerously stupid, but it's more like everyone's laughing at you, not questioning whether or not you're a Nazi. So there's that.

37:30Right. But I get our friend here is concerned because who knows what YouTube videos Mr. Broski is recommending to his 10 year old drumming students who are not mature enough to know that it is total bullshit. Right. Or what are those kids' parents going to think if they hear their kids talking about Mr. Broski's super cool flat earth video at the dinner table? And then they come to our friend here like, what kind of school are you running, dude? Right. I'm paying you to teach him how to play guitar. I don't want your dumb ass ideologies seeping into him. He's going to Harvard, OK? No, it's a liability for you, for sure, if you have people like this working with or for you.

38:01So first of all, U.S. employment law protects workers from discrimination based on certain protected characteristics, race, religion, gender, disability. My understanding is that conspiracy theories, especially ones like Flat Earth, are not specifically protected under federal employment laws and will not be anytime soon. The only even potential wrinkle is if a Flat Earth belief is connected to a sincerely held religious or philosophical belief. Then an employee might be able to claim protection under anti-discrimination laws that protect religious freedom, and employers are required by law to reasonably accommodate religious beliefs and practices as long as it doesn't cause undue hardship to the business.

38:43So my totally unofficial legal take, and FYI, this was not my legal specialty even when I was a practicing attorney, so take everything I say with a huge grain of salt. My hunch is that any flat earther, they would just be so hard-pressed to prove that their beliefs are tied to a sincerely held religious or philosophical belief. And philosophical, they don't mean my philosophy is that I don't believe in science. This is like Buddhism or some kind of belief system that goes deep and that other people have, not just your weird ass stuff that you make up. If anything - That's just your weird subreddit doesn't count.

39:12Yeah, stuff from your weird subreddit just does not pass muster. It does not qualify. The bar is a little too high. If anything, these folks usually pride themselves, by the way, on being free thinkers or whatever. So that would basically tank their case for being a protected class. Like, yeah, there's only a few of us and we meet on Reddit. Like, okay, this is not someone who didn't hire you because you're Muslim. Okay, it's totally different. Also, outside of religious or philosophical claims, employers like you generally have the right to set standards for how their employees should conduct themselves.

39:40And they're 100 % allowed to discipline or terminate employees for promoting conspiracy theories if they disrupt the workplace, violate company policy, impact job performance. So if you tell Mr. Broski and the rest of your staff, hey, company policy is we don't talk about XYZ things with our students. We don't bring up ideas that are controversial or inflammatory or too outside the scope of music and leadership. And then Mr. Broski goes ahead and tells Timmy, like, hey, here's a TikTok about how the earth isn't round. Wake up and stop being one of the sheeple. Especially if Broski gets aggro about it or his teaching suffers as a result of it, that could be grounds for legitimate discipline or termination.

40:15We also quickly ran this by an attorney friend of ours, and his take was, if Mr. Broski merely holds weird views, but he isn't disruptive about them, he probably can't be fired for cause. But if Broski's out there publicly representing your brand and he's somehow linking your brand with these weird views, that'd be dicier. Also, your state, and by the way, our friend here included his state, but we left it out, your state is an at-will employment state. What that means is, in general, employers can terminate employees for any reason, at any time, without warning, as long as the reason is not illegal.

40:49The only exceptions, discrimination, retaliation, public policy exceptions, and contracts that include specific termination conditions. But our attorney friend's advice was, if you give an employee a reason, you open yourself up to a claim of improper termination. In an at-will state, you can fire someone for absolutely no reason, but you can't fire them for a wrong or improper reason. That's exactly right. That said, I think your response here depends on how vocal this guy is being about his conspiracy theory and also what kind of person he is in general. If he generally keeps the stuff to himself, if he's not talking to his students about weird stuff all the time, like if he's just a great teacher who happens to hold these kooky ideas, and if he's generally respectful and he adds a lot to your school, I might just let this go.

41:35He might have just whispered this to you because he felt safe and he would never bring it up with his students. Right. But then if he's saying it to his boss, I think he's even more likely to say it to a 12 year old who's an even better audience for nonsense than a grown man. That's my two cents. Well, fair point. And do you want to wait until he does bring this up with a student to put your foot down? Yeah, it's tough. So look, you could say to him, listen, Broski, that idea you shared with me the other day, totally you're right to believe what you want to believe. I'm not telling you what to think.

42:03I just want to remind you that company policy is to not share our personal beliefs with our students. Keep it focused on the music, the accountability stuff, the goal setting stuff, be a cheerleader to them, that's what we're about. And leave it at that and document that conversation somewhere so you have it in writing. He should get the message, and if he doesn't, then you have grounds to discipline him and you have a paper trail of having to address the issue multiple times. And if he doesn't improve, then you can consider terminating him if it actually comes to that. In my view, you do have some responsibility to your students and their parents to protect these kids from wackadoodles slash actually dangerous ideas.

42:42Whether this particular guy is actually going to inflict these ideas on these kids in a way that's actually dangerous, I'm not too sure about that. Agreed. Also, flat earth isn't even the worst of them, right? But who knows what else this guy believes? If he's willing to believe the earth isn't round, I'm guessing he's also susceptible to other possibly more damaging ideas. I don't know how much you have to gain from sharing what you've learned with the other staff. that might end up feeling like gossip a little bit more than anything else. Maybe it'd be helpful to tell a couple colleagues like, hey, if you hear Broski talking about any kooky ideas around the students, give me a heads up.

43:15I need to know about that stuff. But then you're turning your staff into informants and they're going to talk and it's going to create a little bit of drama. Broski might hear about it and that might be a whole other headache. So my take is give him a very broad, very gentle warning about what's appropriate to share with students. Not calling out his beliefs specifically, keep an eye on him, keep your ear to the ground when it comes to how students and parents feel about him, and just go from there. I have a feeling this is not going to turn into a huge issue, but if it becomes one, you're going to definitely want to cover your arse, both with this teacher on the employment side and with the parents.

43:48And good luck. You know what's lower than a flat earther's IQ, Gabriel? The prices on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are all in one place, jordanharbinger.com slash deals, or email me jordan at jordanharbinger.com. I am happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show.

44:18All right, back to Feedback Friday. Gabriel, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I recently reconnected with someone from high school. We've each been married and divorced, since then and have started officially dating each other. He has two children who are in elementary school. He has them overnight a couple nights a week. We're serious enough that the idea of me meeting them has come up. But here's the thing, as part of their divorce decree, his ex-wife insisted that they not introduce any new romantic partner to the children until they've been with said partner for at least six months. I absolutely love that this man is a dad.

44:54I think he's probably a really good dad. And I love kids. I'm a kick-ass aunt. He's seen me in action. I want to be sensitive toward his children, of course, and I'm not above being considerate of their mom. But six months feels like a really long time to be dating someone without knowing this huge important part of him. And he agrees. It's a long time to be seeing me without knowing how I am with them. His therapist agrees as well and suggested that we use group gatherings with friends who also have kids, so there are multiple kids and multiple grown-ups, to sneakily let us me without breaking the rules.

45:27That seems fine, but I don't exactly want to depend on arranging group gatherings just to see him be a dad and for him to see me with his kids. Whenever I do meet them, we agree that it should be as dad's friend, and we'd refrain from any PDA. I'll wait if I have to, and I certainly don't want to create or participate in any drama, but it really feels like his ex-wife is maintaining control under the guise of protecting her children. Also, let's not forget that I've actually known him longer than she has. I don't want it to be a crime to eat Thanksgiving dinner with his parents and kids. How should I handle this?

46:00Can you help brainstorm some workarounds? Do I just need to know my place here? What's normal? What's right? Signed, breaking free of this frustrating decree so my new dude can see that I'm more than just a great auntie. Huh. Interesting question. Well, this wouldn't be a crime. It would just be a tort, but that's just me flexing that law degree. I got to use it at least once a year. So I get why this is frustrating. I take your point. We wanted to get a good handle on the legal side of things here. So we reached out to attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne. And Corbin said that this 100 % depends upon the language in the divorce decree and on the law in your state.

46:38And he wanted to stress this isn't legal advice and that you and your boyfriend have to consult an attorney in your state before taking any steps. But Corbin did say that any missteps here could have serious consequences. Your partner's ex-wife could bring a lawsuit for a contract breach and or a contempt action, which by then you're talking about a crime. But again, it depends on your state's laws. There might be a few other grounds in there as well. Always state dependent. So Corbyn was pretty clear here. He said that he cannot stress enough the inadvisability of violating a court order. Doing so can result in fines, sometimes jail time.

47:09It's also going to indicate to a judge that your partner can't be trusted to do what the court orders. That can have a devastating impact upon any future custody issues between him and his ex-wife. And while penalties for breaching a contract are less severe, for example, there's usually no jail time, it could also have implications for any further custody fights. Now, his ex-wife could theoretically consent to an earlier introduction to the kids, although based on your letter and the fact that your boyfriend hasn't asked, that sounds unlikely, but Corbin said that he does have some leverage. It sounds like this is a serious relationship and you meeting the kids is almost inevitable.

47:42If you've been with this guy for several months, Corbin doesn't think it's unreasonable for him to ask for you to be introduced to the kids a month earlier, whatever, for the holidays. Now, his ex can decline. That's her prerogative. But then he can offer to be accommodating to his ex when it comes to her introducing a new partner to the kids. Or he can make some other arrangement to secure her agreement. So there are options here. There's a conversation to be had. Another thing Corbin pointed out, these six-month waiting periods, they do have their benefits. In that time, your boyfriend might be able to mention you or talk you up to his kids, and that might actually be a good thing.

48:14Might give his children time to acclimate to the idea of their dad's new partner, maybe even to get excited about having you enter their lives. So in Corbin's view, this six-month waiting time is best used to take a potentially awkward situation and turn it into an opportunity to lay the groundwork for success. And just FYI, in Tennessee where Corbin practices, that's how judges expect former spouses to use this waiting time. So it would probably be worth reaching out to his ex with a plan to slowly introduce the children to you. If she's willing to act in good faith, she'll respect and engage with the plan, maybe even agree to an earlier introduction.

48:49If she acts in bad faith, that can actually be used against her in any future fights over custody. But again, before you guys do any of this, talk to an attorney, figure out what your boyfriend has a right to do, what he does not have a right to do, anything that might be in a gray area. And if his ex won't agree to anything, then he should stand firm on what he has a right to do, avoid what he doesn't have a right to do, and play it conservatively with the gray areas. For his part, Corbin loved the therapist's idea about having some group hangs, interacting with your guy and his kids without being introduced as his partner, but again, before you do that, attorney.

49:24And in a move I did not see coming, Corbin's actually pitched a dark Corbin idea, which is a first for the show. He said that if the ex-wife doesn't play ball, maybe thinking about giving the kids just really nice Christmas gifts, because we all know that that has been known to set people off, which I love this idea. Just a little pinprick here. Yeah, that's hilarious. Just get them an Xbox on a 65-inch flat screen TV and call it a day. That's right. That should do it. Just a little stocking stuffer. So it's interesting, Jordan. I might fall into the don't meet the kids yet within the six-month window camp.

49:54Why? Tell me. Well, first of all, we don't know why they included this clause in the divorce decree. Sure. Maybe there was some good reason for that. I don't want to speculate too much. I'm guessing our friend here would have told us if there was a big reason, but maybe one party feels that the other party might bring somebody around too soon, or maybe they know that their kids are young and impressionable, and they just want to protect them. I know our friend here feels that this is the ex-wife controlling her boyfriend more than protecting the kids, but we don't know that for sure, do we? Yeah, or maybe it was just boilerplate divorce decree stuff that was in there, and they're like, okay, fine.

50:26But there's a reason that clause is often included in these things. Yeah, like Corbin said, one purpose for this waiting time is to sit with a new relationship, slowly introduce the idea to the kids, but more importantly, six months, not that long, in my opinion. I mean, look, this situation is unique. They've known each other since high school. They really like each other. They're excited. It's frustrating. I get it. But if they're doing well, I'm not sure what the harm is in waiting six months to meet the kids. Our friend here is eager to get more data on how they fit as a family and how they are as parents, separately, together.

50:55So again, I get it. Although didn't she say that he's seen her in action as an aunt? She did say that. So it's not like he has zero data about how she is with kids. It's not like he has to wait six months before he finds out that she's secretly terrible with children or something. Exactly. So I'm of the mind that six months are going to fly. I'm guessing at least a month, maybe more, has already passed since they reconnected. So it could only be four or five months. It could be three months, which is really not a lot. And in the meantime, they can really invest in their relationship and make sure they're totally solid and see how things develop before meeting the kids, which everyone in this situation seems to agree is a pretty big step.

51:33So part of me is going, like, what's the rush? Is anything catastrophic gonna happen if she can't meet his kids immediately? I hear that, but I think what she's saying is, I'm not some random girl he met on Tinder last week. We've known each other since we were like 15, and this woman is standing in the way of our relationship. I kind of get that. Well, again, she might be, or she might just be holding to an agreement that's designed to protect their kids from other partners who are like she never imagined that it would be the person he went to high school with. Right. It might not be about stopping her kids from ever having another woman in their life.

52:03And in the meantime, there is still a conversation to be had with the ex-wife. She could meet her a couple of times. She could build that relationship, show her that she's normal and collaborative, respectful of their family, and that their relationship is solid. And then when the time is right, this guy can just ask his ex-wife like, hey, is it cool if Lainey meets the kids a couple months early. I don't know if it's out of the realm of possibility that she takes that in and goes, yeah, okay, I see that you, you know, this is fine. Why not? And if she doesn't, then yeah, they'll probably just have to wait it out.

52:33And it's very frustrating, but not fatal. Fair enough. So there you have it. An actual lawyer's take, the dark lawyer's take, a far worse lawyer's take. That's me in case it wasn't clear. And Gabe's take in a rare dissenting opinion on this generally unified judicial bench of life conundra, be patient, be creative, be flexible. I hope you get what you want here, but if you and your boyfriend end up going the distance, I think this period will also feel like just a footnote in the grand scheme of things, and might only make the foundation for your relationship with these kids even stronger. And good luck.

53:06All right, my recommendation of the week this week is homemade matcha lattes. So you've probably heard me talk about my life-changing trip to Japan this year. One of the highlights was doing this tea ceremony in Kyoto with some family friends of ours. They run an incredible tea dojo there. They walk you through every beautiful detail of the ritual. It was truly one of the coolest things I've ever done. And by the way, if any of you ever go to Japan, just drop me a note. I'd be happy to give you my Japan recs and introduce you to the school if you'd like. But anyway, when I came home from that trip, I was asking myself, how in the world do I keep this Japan magic alive in my life in LA?

53:42Can I make matcha lattes at home so I don't have to go to some bougie cafe every single day to enjoy one. So it's actually extremely simple. All you need is some matcha powder, a matcha whisk, and one of these cool matcha bowls, although that's actually just a bonus. You can do it in any cup, but it's really fun in the bowls. It is so easy. And the ritual of making it, you know, you like taking the ladle and putting the powder in the bowl and then taking the whisk and whisking the water back and forth. And it goes like that little, it's just very fun very meditative i'm a big fan and then if you want to turn it into an actual latte you just heat up some milk i do almond milk obviously or milk yeah of course you do pour it in and you know bam you have a matcha latte and you don't have to drive 15 minutes and pay nine dollars for it it's great so i'm gonna link to a set that includes the whisk the ladle the bowl the strainer all of it it's not super expensive and it's a good place to start i'm also going to link to some matcha powder to get you started.

54:39If you guys want to do this at home too, I think you'd love it. And then if you ever go to Japan or specifically Kyoto, you can upgrade your gear later because they have amazing stuff there. And that's super fun too. You know, Jen also loves her matcha lattes. We have the bowl and the whisk and the powder. I get why it's so fun to make. Oh, and Domo Arigato for using our Amazon affiliate links in the show notes for our recommendations of the week. Also, in case you don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you're on Reddit, hanging out there, join us over at Jordan Harbinger, the subreddit.

55:06We discuss the episodes, the guests, the advice on Feedback Friday. It's a lot of fun. Go there and check it out if you are a Redditor. All right, before we wrap up today, I wanted to give you guys an update on the plastics episode we did with Chris D 'Armit sometime back. That was episode 924. As I suspected, this turned out to be quite a controversial episode. Fascinating but controversial. A lot of you guys wrote to me after the episode saying, Chris was fascinating and authoritative and the interview was thought-provoking, but there seemed to be contradictions in his arguments, or at least we have some big questions.

55:38So we passed them along to Chris. He generously responded to every single one, and these emails kept trickling in over the months. We saved up a bunch of them so we could do an update all in one go. And I realize this isn't the usual Q5 banger y 'all usually get, but it is super interesting and very important. Plus, it's fun to see how a guest responds to some fiery emails from our listeners. So thanks for hanging out with us while we talk about whether plastic is really gonna ruin our planet, our bodies, and our lives, or if it's actually pretty innocent and or better than the alternatives. So first off, a lot of you wrote in saying, there's no way plastic is better than paper or metal or other materials, and how is it possible that it doesn't just stick around forever, especially in the ocean?

56:14To that point, Chris's take is that plastics degrade similarly to other organic materials, breaking down into carbon dioxide, water, and biomass under aerobic conditions. He provided references to studies showing that plastics degrade more quickly than many other materials in marine environments. In fact, Chris maintained that in many cases, plastics are actually found to be the safer choice in life cycle assessments. According to him, life cycle assessments show that plastic bags and drink containers have lower environmental impacts compared to alternatives like paper or metal cans. He also pointed out that transportation plays a large role in environmental impact and plastic bags, they just require fewer trucks to transport compared to paper bags.

56:50For example, Chris argues that Tetra Pak containers are not easily recyclable due to their mixed material composition. His argument is that human behavior and improper disposal, not the plastics themselves, those are the real issues contributing to pollution. So when a country dumps container-loaded ships of plastic crap and garbage into the ocean, that's the problem, not the manufacture of plastic. But, and I'm sympathetic to this argument, a lot of you did not appreciate that Chris puts the blame for plastic waste onto consumers, and I can understand that. His response to that was, the plastics industry gets undue blame for pollution, and that the real issue is littering by individuals, not corporations.

57:27A lot of you asked about those huge piles of plastic you see sometimes in the ocean. Chris's response there was, he's actually trying to debunk the idea that there are massive floating islands of plastic in the ocean. He claims that these are just pure fabrication. He also pointed to what he says are decades of scientific data that show no significant increase in oceanic plastic pollution despite rising plastic production. Then a few of you brought up the whole microplastics concern. This is one of the things that terrifies me, right? These like tiny little plastics, micro and nanoplastics in the ocean or anywhere.

57:55Chris's take there was, these microplastics have been extensively tested and according to him, they've been shown to be as harmless as clay. Obviously not every single one, but a lot of them. So he criticizes studies that claim microplastics are harmful. In his view, they're often methodologically flawed. He also challenges what he considers common misconceptions about BPA, endocrine disrupting chemicals, and plastic toxicity. This is sort of, again, another hot take because this stuff is scary, man. Chris's take is that a lot of these arguments come from environmental groups, which he generally doesn't seem to be a big fan of.

58:26In his view, these groups often tell the public scary but fictional stories to generate donations. He actually pointed us to a report by the former president of Greenpeace that says that that's essentially their business model. I'm not saying I agree with him. I don't know enough about how these groups work. I'm just letting you know what Chris says. I know the president, former president of Greenpeace, has come under fire for that stuff, and people call him a grifter. Like, maybe that's true, maybe not. But the top criticism we heard from you guys was Chris is actually biased in his pro-plastics view because he has financial ties to the plastic industry.

58:55That is obviously a fair point, one I knew about before I had him on. Perhaps I could have shown more of a light on that in the interview, so I could have given Chris a chance to explain. In fact, one of you even went so far as to say, and I quote, this guy is one of the biggest industry shills in the game. He loves to portray himself as an objective scientist, but his funding comes from big plastic, which he often fails to mention, which zing. And another listener said, Chris DeArmit is trained as a scientist, but he is not a scientist in ecologically related or human medical fields, which could give him some authority to have an informed opinion on the dangers of plastic.

59:25That listener also pointed out that he hasn't published any of the perspectives he shared on the show in peer-reviewed journals. To these criticisms, Chris respectfully defended his credibility, said that his opinions are based on hundreds of peer-reviewed studies, many of which he linked to and which we'll include in the show notes. So look, all of the emails I got about this episode were super eye-opening. They challenged me to think yet again about when to feature potentially controversial guests like Chris DeArmit on the show. I gotta say though, the way you guys engage with his arguments, speaking to his claims, sharing your own research, respectfully disagreeing.

59:55It really just made me appreciate how smart and thoughtful all of y 'all really are, the whole show fam, and what really meaningful debate should actually look like. It also made me think about why I have guests like this on the show. So as you know, I declined in the past to have RFK Jr. on the show some time back because I knew he'd bring a ton of misinformation to our conversation, and I just don't have the deep expertise to meaningfully push back and set the record straight. And even if I did, that would turn into a tedious debate, not an interesting long-form interview. I also didn't have the deep expertise to fact-check Chris to arm it.

1:00:28Just to be totally clear, I cannot assess all of his counter-arguments either. I'm just sharing them with you, but I know that Chris at least comes with some credibility and a reasonable degree of good faith. And it's funny, people have been accusing me lately of doing controversial episodes for the sake of audience capture, which is patently ridiculous, or to appease an audience of crappy psycho people. My feeling is that's an unfair accusation. I think it's important to have conversations with anybody, I'll say almost anybody, who's going to engage and argue in good faith, even if that means they make some mistakes.

1:00:58I will not have somebody on the show who blatantly lies to us, and I have to just ignore that, especially in ways that can harm people, like with their health or the health of their children. And some of you might think, well, Chris is blatantly lying because he has ties to the industry. And I appreciate that argument, but I don't believe that Chris was blatantly lying for money. I think he's presenting data, data that, to be totally clear, I do not have time or expertise to personally verify. That is why I appreciate y 'all's emails. And the takeaways from that data, they can obviously be debated.

1:01:28And I know that I'm going to get more emails with more counter arguments to Chris's counter arguments. I can't go through them point by point. I always love hearing from you. We're all ears. But at some point, we got to put the discussion down. In the meantime, though, I'm going to include a link to a document someone created where they went through Chris's book and they fact checked his claims and sources. So if you want to dig deeper, definitely check that out. But anyway, the idea I come back to time and time again is, it is better to not get something right 100 % of the time than to not even try to talk to some of these folks, which, as we all know, just creates and maintains these echo chambers that I'm trying so hard to break out of.

1:02:02And most of you, including the ones who tore into Chris's arguments, actually shared that same view. So thank you to Chris for coming on, for engaging thoughtfully with all these counter-arguments, and to all of you for adding to this debate and making the show even richer. Go back and check out Yuval Noah Harari and our Skeptical Sunday on higher education if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course.

1:02:28The course is free. It is not schmoozy. It's all there on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Once again, it's sixminutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website at jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, and discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on all social media. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:03:03Our advice and opinions are our own. And I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing things you hear on the show. ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show on how big pharma broke American health care and what we can do to repair it.

1:03:32Prior to the pandemic starting, Americans live 3.3 years less than the citizens of 19 other wealthy countries. And in those two years of the pandemic, that 3.3 years less grew to 5.3 years less. I think it's a very powerful testimony of the fact that our health care system is not as well-oriented towards producing health as the health care systems of the other wealthy countries. Here's the problem, Jordan. The drug companies have paid for the research. The drug companies have analyzed the research. The drug companies have written up most of the research. These written-up manuscripts that are brief summaries of the whole study are then submitted to journals for publication.

1:04:21When they're submitted to journals and the peer reviewers and the medical journal editors look at these manuscripts, they don't get to see the underlying data. The drug companies have one primary mission. We've got to remember this. It's not to make us healthier. It's not to improve the quality of our lives. It's to maximize the financial returns to their investors. And they do it very well. That's their job. That's what they do. They do it. They are world class and they fight tooth and nail against it. And as you were saying, the wealthier they get, the more money they have to fight anything that's going to threaten their profits.

1:04:58But even when they blow it completely with a disaster like Vioxx that killed 40 ,000 to 60 ,000 Americans, even then they break even. Nobody went to jail about that. And that is the introduction of the conversation about why is this happening? How could this possibly be happening? To hear John Abramson's take on how our health care system can be overhauled to benefit people over profits, check out episode 709 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:05:29Thank you.