1073: Fluoride | Skeptical Sunday

28:39I mean, severe fluorosis can lead to pitting in tooth enamel, which is just more damage to your teeth. But that's also extremely rare. You know, the levels of fluoride are closely monitored. In fact, for the first time in over 50 years, in 2015, the United States lowered its recommended levels of fluoride in drinking water because there's just so much on the shelves at the grocery stores and in our food. And a lot of people freaked out about that because they were changing the fluoride levels, but it shouldn't alarm people. It should comfort people to know our fluoride levels are paid close attention to and adjusted.

29:22And it should make sense when looking at those shelves of products with fluoride that we don't need as much in our water. Yeah, I did not realize that. That is reassuring, I suppose. Somebody didn't set it up in 1905 and be like, this is fine. Right, right, right. Right. And if you don't want fluoride in your toothpaste, you do have options. You know, there's Tom's, there's Arm & Hammer, there's Bites. They all have fluoride-free options and they're readily available. Bites? Never heard of that one. Yeah, they're getting more and more popular. It's all about the packaging. They're these little tablets you chew on and they foam in your mouth.

29:58And so they just come in a glass bottle. So it's eco-friendly packaging, no plastic tubes. but you can get those as well with or without fluoride. We had those. They were called knobs, which is a funny name. Pop a knob in your mouth. Means something different overseas. So I get that it's in toothpaste and I get that it's in the water, but you say we're absorbing it all the time. What if hypothetically, I rarely brush my teeth, mostly forego tap water. I wouldn't be the first dude to ignore dental hygiene and survive entirely on, I don't know, Mountain Dew, for example. Oh, God, that makes my teeth hurt thinking about.

30:37Yeah, fuzzy teeth. Yeah, green fuzzy teeth. People, they associate fluoride with dental care and it's in the water. But we need to understand it's found in our food. I mean, depending on the water source of Mountain Dew, there could be fluoride in there. And because it's a mineral, it can be present in our soil and water that we use for our crops. So it's thought that the food with the highest content seems to be brewed tea. I'm not sure why that is. But even if you only use distilled water for cooking and drinking, you'll still absorb fluoride from food. Distilled water doesn't have fluoride then?

31:16No, that's impossible. The distillation process effectively removes fluoride and a bunch of other contaminants. So you can filter out the fluoride? I mean, you can distill it out, filtering it, like if you're thinking of a Brita or something, I don't think that's possible. I couldn't find any filter or cartridge that can successfully remove fluoride 100%. And those activated carbon filters, they're ineffective at removing fluoride. And any product you see that makes those claims should be verified. But if people have some extra money, you can install something to filter out fluoride at home. We have a reverse osmosis filter, so maybe my teeth are actually going to fall out due to lack of fluoride at some point.

32:04You know, reverse osmosis water filtration, it is the best, but it can be pricey. The other option is steam distillation. And it's understandable that people want those things because they're freaked out and they think something is being forced into their body. So if people are concerned, it's a good option. You can look up how much fluoride is in your tap water, decide what you want to invest, and then filter it out. But here's the thing. The money you're spending filtering out fluoride will be spent at the dentist filling cavities. Crap. Okay. But people have those to filter out more than fluoride.

32:45Like, we have it because of heavy metals and whatever else. I don't even know. They're just getting fluoride from toothpaste and seem to be fine. I mean, that was kind of my plan. Yeah. Well, I don't know. Have you seen a rise in your own cavity rates? I don't know. Maybe. Got that? Maybe not. Ask your dentist today. I should. Maybe they're paying attention to that. I'm not. There was a study in 2018 that showed a surprising cause of cavities is reverse osmosis. Oh, great. That's great. It was just one study, but these researchers recognized that, of course, these filtration systems are used to remove chlorine and other contaminants and improve the taste and smell of water.

33:28So they just recommend adding the minerals back into your filtered water, which, you know, you can get mineral drops or there's some specific filter that I don't really quite understand that'll put good fluoride back in. So if you filter out the bad stuff and you don't make up for the good fluoride somewhere in your lifestyle, you're likely to get more cavities. So fluoridated water is just less painful. And by the way, a lot cheaper because my reverse osmosis filter thing was not cheap. I remember really, you know, gritting my teeth and cutting the check for that thing. Yeah, no pun intended there.

34:05For every dollar spent on water fluoridation, it saves the consumer about$38 in health care, according to the CDC. And without fluoridated water, your dentist bills will be a lot higher because you'll have more dental problems. And then, as we know, when your teeth have problems, that affects a lot of your organs. It can affect your heart, your kidney, it's just your overall health. Okay, so it saves us money on dental bills, but isn't it extremely expensive for communities to fluoridate water? No. Adding fluoride to the water is one of the less expensive ways to prevent tooth decay. I don't have all the economics behind that.

34:48You don't have a price list? You could just open up an aluminum manufacturing plant somewhere upstream and you should, it's free then. We should get into the fluoridation business. It's definitely cheaper than treating tooth decay, though. And in 2015, the Cochrane Review, which is like the gold standard for high quality, trusted science research, they released data from 20 observational studies that spanned from the 1950s to the 90s. And it showed water fluoridation reduces the risk of decay and fillings as well as a premature loss of baby teeth by significant amounts. And the authors concluded that water fluoridation is effective for reducing cavity rates in both primary and permanent teeth in children.

35:37I mean, there's just savings there, especially if you have kids. Yeah, and especially if you're the tooth fairy. Does it affect pregnancy or infants differently? I've always kind of worried about that stuff now that I've got kids myself. I think there needs to be more studies on that because I could only find one study involving pregnant women that found fluoride transfers from the woman to the fetus. And this study gave 800 mothers a milligram a day of fluoride during the last six months of pregnancy. Then they examined the children when they were three years old and just came up with no significant difference in the children's cavity rates.

36:15So the Cochrane Review concluded that there's no evidence that shows fluoride supplementation in pregnant women prevents dental cavities in their offspring or causes any harm. Yeah, I'm less worried about whether a newborn has bright white chompers than I am about fluoride having some other effect on the baby. Yeah, of course. I mean, I get that. But there's several studies that show even in communities with fluoridated water, fluoride in breast milk is very rarely detected. So it's just non-existent and it's hard to measure. So pregnant women don't seem to absorb it the same way. So I think if you're worried about it with your baby, the thing to look at is actually just baby formula.

37:00The fluoride levels in infant formula, whether they're milk or soy-based, they'll vary depending on, of course, the water source you use to make the formula itself. I see. We keep mentioning kids, but does it work as a preventative for adults as well? I think earlier you said we kind of weren't sure about that. Yeah. And it's just, I mean, my personal opinion is, of course it does, but we just don't have a conclusive scientific answer because of the lack of studies. There's some evidence that shows, you know, the addition of fluoride prevents cavities in adults. And from 2004 to 2006, an observational study was done of 4 ,000 Australian adults over the age of 15.

37:44That showed a 10 % lower rate of fillings, cavities, and decay in the adults who had the fluoridated public water. Then Australia did another smaller study, and that showed even lower rates. So these findings point to fluoridated drinking water, preventing cavities in children and adults. But we just need more studies. Okay, so what about those bougie folks that only drink bottled water? Is there fluoride in there, too? Yeah, bottled drinking water rarely has fluoride added to them, but it can naturally be present depending on the water source. The thing is, unless the label makes a claim about the product's fluoride content, there is no requirement to list the amount of fluoride in bottled water on the label.

38:29I see. I drank that Alcoa brand water from Bauxite, Arkansas, or whatever it was. So maybe there's some in there. But yeah, now's a great time to unveil my new brand of bottled drinking water, Colorado Brownstain. I'm open to ideas on what the label should look like, by the way. All right. So fluoride in our food and water is unavoidable. I know some folks think that fluoride is a medication, essentially, that's being forced on communities, right? That's the narrative. And that it causes bone cancer. I think that's one thing that I'd heard recently. I've also seen protests on this and there are theories going around online.

39:02So what does the science actually say about this? Yes, we can get sick. Yes, we can barf. But what about the serious stuff that people are actually worried about? Yeah, sure. I mean, first, let's be clear. The fluoride in our water and our dental products is not a medicine. A U.S. court decision ruled that fluoride is a nutrient, not a vitamin, and definitely not medication. Okay, but that's like a semantic argument. Like, oh, a court said it's technically a different thing. Well, okay, that other thing is still harmful. I don't know. That's not totally convincing, if I'm honest. What's the difference between those terms, nutrient instead of medicine, or not a vitamin in medicine?

39:40Why does it matter? Yeah, I mean, nutrients, vitamins, and medication are distinct scientific categories, and that means that their roles are legally defined too. So nutrients come from foods, that's our carbs, our fats, our proteins. We get vitamins from our food, but the vitamins are things we don't make ourselves and they play various roles like acting as antioxidants and supporting our immune function. So unlike nutrients and vitamins, medications are things that are designed to treat or prevent diseases. And they are all regulated by health authorities. And there is zero evidence fluoride interacts with any vitamin or medication.

40:26But it's a nutrient and not a medication because it's a mineral. I see. I guess I've never had a pharmacist say like, hey, don't mix this medication with tap water or toothpaste, for that matter. Don't brush your teeth. Yeah, exactly. No brushing your teeth while you're on this. I need that medication. But But I've heard people express concerns that fluoride increases the risk of cancer. That's the one that scares me. Right. And I've seen that too everywhere. And it's really strange because tons of research and studies show that fluoride does not increase the risk of cancer or other serious health problems for that matter.

41:04People also claim it contributes to diabetes and heart and kidney problems. But the National Cancer Institute, among several other institutions, endorse fluoride as safe and effective. Careful epidemiological studies have failed to support associations with either cancer or any of those other conditions. There's just zero evidence. What about bones? Does fluoride strengthen our bones, too? It seems like that would follow if it's strengthening our teeth. Yeah, it seems like it should affect our bones and nails, but it makes sense. But clinical trials, they've actually had conflicting findings about fluoride doing enough to prevent bone fractures.

41:47So one study showed a significant reduction in fracture risk. Another study found no change in fracture rates or bone density at all. So it's unclear. We know our bones absorb it, but is it doing anything? I don't, it doesn't seem like it. Is this only a U.S. thing? I know it started in Michigan, but do other countries allow fluoridated water? I'm assuming it's fluoridated in other developed nations. Maybe it's not. Yeah. Well, I mean, again, it depends on the water supply, but many countries add fluoride to their water supply. The British government very recently announced a new expert review of fluoride to strengthen the legislation around fluoridated water.

42:27They want to get more of their water fluoridated. And the evidence that fluoride protects against cavities is just overwhelming and not up for debate. But for some reason in England and Wales, less than 10 percent of the population receives fluoridated water. That is interesting. So there is actually something to why Brits are notorious for rotten teeth. I really thought that was sort of an Austin Powers meme because he was from the 1960s. Wow, that's kind of funny. Every stereotype's rooted somewhere, I guess. But unfortunately, the fluoridation proposals are really opposed there by people who see fluoride as an unjustified hazard.

43:09And the debate raises both scientific and ethical questions in every country. You know, there's different problems in countries that are in what's called the natural fluoride belt. And that extends from, you know, like Turkey through China, Japan, and the Mideast, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan. That's like the whole fluoride belt. the rates of fluorosis are high there. So what they're actually debating is defluoridation. And that's okay for their location and their products and their treatments that are available. This doesn't discount fluoride. It makes a stronger case for it to be leveled. But people might hear a piece of that information and think, you know, we should be taking it out.

43:55But it's just a regional thing. It's actually neighborhood by neighborhood, but water source by water source that we need to look at. Now sink your teeth into the great deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our sponsors keeps the lights on around here and keeps my teeth filled with precious, precious whatever goes into fill cavities. To learn more and get links to all the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are in one clickable place, jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday.

44:27Sort of surprising that Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan and Japan, China, and Turkey are the ones with supposedly great natural water. I mean, look, I've met many Iranians with amazing, nice smiles. I don't know much about Afghanistan or Iraq, but maybe it'll surprise me. Maybe the people's teeth are great. But Japan, I've been to Japan and China and Turkey. And I am, let's just say I'm not impressed with the teeth that I saw when I was there. But if there's too much fluoride. That's true. Could have been that brown stain. Yeah, that's true. Those delicious, delicious, delicious chocolate candy. All right.

45:01So why the controversy? Are there actual experts who are against fluoride or is this like quack science with fringe anti-science folks at the rim that are just loud squeakers? I mean, experts just objectively agree on the rationale for fluoride. There's several alternative dentists that don't recommend fluoride, but the oral health benefits, they're not debated. It's the implementation of fluoride that's questioned. And when experts ask questions and pose hypotheses, that information can get distorted by the time it gets to the public, like with the fluoride belt. But there just aren't enough studies being done to back up or disprove anybody's skepticism.

45:47I see. Which does nothing to convince people who are skeptical of what fluoride is and does. Right. But we do know what fluoride is. And its use is quite transparent. The CDC, they have a website that lists fluoride levels in tap water by county. So is there any truth to the anti-fluoride claims or is it all kind of conspiracy theories for the most part? I mean, like any conspiracy theory, I guess, those fluoride-related ones, they come from a kernel of truth because exposure to higher levels of fluoride over a long period of time can not only cause dental fluorosis, but lead to a condition called skeletal fluorosis.

46:32And that's when fluoride builds up in the bones and it gives you joint pain or weak bones. But that is so rare that only five cases total ever have been reported in the United States. So it does occur in places with naturally high levels of fluoride. But again, it's still pretty rare, even over there. And from this, people have wondered if fluoride then is contributing to arthritis or osteoporosis or some other kind of problems that they want to blame something on. There's nothing wrong with asking questions, especially, though, when it comes to what we're putting in our bodies. I'm always kind of paying more attention to that now than I used to.

47:16I used to just, well, let's not go there. Yeah, we mature. But I mean, of course, and we should be asking the questions, but we also need to be understanding the studies that back up those questions. So if it's a balance of fluoride intake that's best for our teeth, you know, it might be the same for other conditions. But many experts consider evidence of these claims to be weak and coming from flawed studies. But all of this, you know, gray area confusion does lead to a bigger point about fluoride studies. OK, which is? Well, pro-fluoride side, they can demonize those who question fluoride, and it makes it difficult to get funding for those kinds of hypotheses.

48:03You know, on the other hand, the anti-fluoride camp has convinced many communities to deny the benefits of water fluoridation to millions of children and adults. And then those people suffer higher cavity rates and dental bills. So community health programs, they need to be based on scientific evidence, not arguments or feelings. Wow. Okay, so it seems like we should fund all kinds of fluoride studies. But once something hits the level of conspiracy theory, mountains of evidence, that's seldom enough to convince the other side once they've made up their minds on something. So you can't really reason your way out of something that you've emotioned yourself into.

48:41We've heard that many times from people on the show about conspiracy thinking. Yeah, of course. We all need to practice more stoicism or at least let people know the variables involved with fluoride. Like it depends on our age, our sex, our location. That sounds like a chat room from the 90s. Remember that? ASL. I guess a geology and geography lesson should come with every tube of toothpaste. Maybe that's what the little code is on the bottom where they clamp it. I mean, it couldn't hurt. But it's not just a matter of understanding that fluoride is too high in some parts of the world. It's also understanding that our fluoride consumption, it's being observed and being corrected all the time.

49:26That Cochrane Review in 2015, they concluded that early scientific investigations on water fluoridation, which were mostly conducted before 1975, are now deeply flawed, which, of course, people are then they think fluoride's totally wrong. But it wasn't because it was flawed research or some kind of mind control. It's what we talked about earlier, that no way in 1901 or the 20s or the 40s or even the 60s could somebody have imagined the availability of fluoride we have today. The early studies just didn't account for the subsequent widespread use of all these fluoride-containing products. And I bet people saw that as, like you said, something's wrong with fluoride.

50:13the whole thing was one big mistake. Yeah, which wasn't the case. But when you talk about water, I mean, there's just something so personal about our water and people take the sanctity of their water really seriously. And most people who do worry about the water fluoridation, they aren't conspiracy theorists. They're just concerned because they think a harmful chemical is in the water supply. I guess conspiracies about minerals in the water supply, that's just doesn't get as many clicks as ones about chemicals or mystery substances in the water supply. Mind control minerals sounds really dumb.

50:52Come on, man. I mean, yeah, come on. Adding anything to the water supply sounds like some movie plot, but it's just not the case here. It's easy to spin, though, right? I mean, experts hesitate on publishing findings that might criticize fluoride, of course, because no matter what side you're on, that's bad. There was a really controversial study, kind of the most famous one that came out in 2019, the reputable medical journal JAMA Pediatrics. They published this study that suggested a link between fluoride, pregnant women, and the IQ of their children. It was really scary. And it warned pregnant women, hey, like, just watch your fluoride consumption.

51:37How would you do that? I know. The author of that study, Christine Till, said, you know, quote, I think this message could be easily misconstrued as us saying don't drink fluoridated water. We're not saying that. We don't want to stir up controversy. Oh, come on. No. Right. Hey, watch your fluoride consumption. Oh, my God. Should I not be having this? No, no, no, no, no. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, you know, just be careful. What does that mean? So, of course, let me guess, this did stir up controversy because that article sounds terrifying, especially if you're having a baby. Yeah, of course.

52:10But it's, you know, you'd have to read the whole article to understand what they're saying. And, you know, like a lot of information, people, they're not reading the study and they just assume the worst from what twisted facts they hear. So there's this noted anti-fluoride group called the Fluoride Action Network, and they posted links to over a dozen media reports of the study with misleading headlines. They issued their own press release two days after the study ran, claiming that to continue fluoridation in the name of dental health is a huge disservice to the children of this country. It was just such a hyperbolic reaction and really dangerous.

52:50Yeah, I understand, though. Social media campaigns are not exactly known for their adherence to the facts and journalistic integrity. People generally, they listen to what they want to hear or the stuff that they already agree with in the first place. Of course. And that's just human nature. And we see that in the fluoride debate. Like when environmental lawyer, anti-vaccine proponent and presidential candidate Robert Kennedy Jr. tweeted a CNN story covering that JAMA study. Someone tweeted back that, you know, fluoride's this byproduct of aluminum, and we've been conned for years to put in our water, and we've all just been drinking poison.

53:30So we're back to the Dr. Strange love conspiracy. So it's not just fiction. It's literally a comedy. But here we are. But RFK agreed with that response, and it went viral, and people trust who they feel is right. not the most reasonable explanation. Like on InfoWars, the right wing conspiracy theorist, Alex Jones. Oh, yeah. Yeah. He devoted a segment to the study and just wrongly claimed that fluoride brain damages babies and lowers your IQ. And then immediately after, plugged water filters sold on his website. So my skepticism of the skepticism is pretty high. Do Alex Jones water filters filter out the fluoride and the chemicals in the water that are turning the frogs gay.

54:18Two sound bites in a row, but I cannot help myself here. Hold on. Hang on. I don't like them putting chemicals in the water that turn the frigging frogs gay. I mean, how are skeptics supposed to gain confidence that fluoride is responsible for more good than bad? Oh, my gosh. What is wrong with gay frogs? But anyway, nothing. But, you know, chemically gay is different than just regular gay. I guess we don't. That's another skeptical Sunday. It's tough because, you know, like we said, people are listening to what they want to hear. In response to all this misinformation about the JAMA study, public health groups like the UK's National Health Service and the CDC and the ADA, they all got together.

55:01They all put out statements about fluoridation of public water supplies as being the single most effective public health measure to help prevent tooth decay. But I mean, there was a lot of damage done from the article already. Yeah, there's too much momentum. Public opinion is really easily swayed towards negative things, I guess. Yeah. And as the tenor of the public debate over fluoride, you know, has slowed necessary research into this health program that affects millions of us, you know, it gets just so confusing. But experts agree that the hypothesis that fluoride is like a neurodevelopmental toxicant, sure, like let's give that some serious consideration, but let's not, you know, confuse that with support for banning fluoride.

55:51Researchers know they have to walk on eggshells around the topic of fluoride to the point that the editorial note of that JAMA study said the decision to published this article was not easy. I mean, research shouldn't be that crazy. No, that is crazy. That's crazy. And it makes sense that people are worried about this, in my opinion. But is there something there of concern or not? I mean, I'm not concerned, but definitely there's something to study, of course. As less and less fluorides required in our water supply because more and more is on the shelves, there could come a time when it might make sense to stop adding it.

56:29But right now, there's a lot of inequity in that solution. I just find it interesting we're getting fluoride from food on the shelves just because there's stuff from other areas that's imported or like we're using plaques or something and rinse and different kinds of toothpaste. It's just really kind of a one of those neat things about the human ecosystem and food system that, yeah, we probably should be paying attention to. But you mentioned there's currently inequity in the fluoride solution. What does that mean? How so? Yeah, I just mean that it's really subjective to where you live. So a lot of people say removing fluoride would have negative dental health effects in vulnerable communities.

57:05And what I mean by vulnerable is like there was a 2019 study that removed fluoride from Juneau, Alaska's water supply. And what happened was there was a staggering increase in cavities in the children there that were under six. They say it cost an estimated$300 more per child a year for the dentist. And the study says that this is probably because, and this makes sense to me, that Juneau, Alaska's, their market shelves, they have a much more limited selection of foods and dental products than we do on the mainland. And it's probably expensive to get stuff from the mainland. So like some sort of weird rinse is not high on your list.

57:50Okay. So this is really, the fluoride in the water is a city by city decision, correct? Yeah. I mean, like I said, it's water source by water source, really. You know, starting in 1901, McKay and his colleagues, they did really deliberate, diligent research. And, you know, fluoride's a medical discovery that should be marveled. It should be celebrated. And it is just objectively one of the great public health achievements of the 20th century. So, you know, fluoride health, it can be achieved through supporting more research, understanding what that research is, and just discussing fluoridation practices that are optimal for everyone's oral health.

58:36And researched, of course. So we have updated fluoride policies when it comes to what we and our children are ingesting. I just, yeah, I don't think we should rest on 100 plus year old laurels with this one either. So what are we waiting for? Let's flood people with the facts on fluoride. Womp womp. Thanks, Jessica. Appreciate it. Yeah, my pleasure. And thanks everyone for listening and putting up with my sound bites and puns today. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan at JordanHarbinger.com. Show notes at JordanHarbinger.com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show all at JordanHarbinger.com slash deals.

59:12I'm at JordanHarbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. and you can find Jessica on her sub stack Between the Lines and we'll link to that in the show notes as we always do. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and yes, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer and I'm sure as heck not a dentist. So do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Also, we might get a few things wrong here and there, especially on Skeptical Sunday.

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1:00:17Most of the people, young people I deal with, envision themselves in kind of the top economic class, or at least aspire to it. Two basic rules, get certified and get to a city. I know, of course, most people want to be in the 1%. You know what, actually, I take it back. I think now most people want to be in the 0.1%. They just think that's what the 1 % is. 100%. 100%. The myth of balance is a myth. And the other big myth is this notion that you should follow your passion. And the notion that you should follow your passion is dangerous because most passion sectors are overinvested. If you want to open a nightclub, go to work for Vogue or play professional sports or music, just recognize you better get a great deal of psychic income from those things because the monetary income relative to your effort will be dramatically lower than other asset classes.

1:01:07Your job as a young person is not to follow your passion. It's to find out what you're good at and then invest the time, the grit, and the energy to become great at it. The accoutrements that follow being great at something, status, respect your colleagues, money, access to better health care, the ability to take care of your parents and your kids. You will become passionate about whatever it is that lets you do those things. Happiness is love, full stop. So the depth and number of relationships across work, family and friends is the best practice around happiness. Scott has a bunch of great advice, whether you're young or old and you want to live a rich and happy life, whether that means economics or not.

1:01:51And that's episode 204 with Scott Galloway solving the algebra of happiness here on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:02:03This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling New Age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy-mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspirituality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

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