1148: Face Father's Fury or Fund Future Fortune? | Feedback Friday

23:00Pacific Life and Annuity, Phoenix, Arizona. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. All the deals, discounts, and ways to support the podcast are all searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now back to Feedback Friday. Okay, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm the head of technology for a fast-growing business. Six months ago, I championed a vendor partnership that I genuinely believed was the right move. I invested deeply in the relationship, pushed hard for it internally, and gave this vendor the benefit of the doubt more than once.

23:37But recently, it's become clear that they misrepresented key elements of their offering, including system ownership and cost transparency. I now see that I place the business in a position where our flexibility is limited, our costs are rising, and our long-term control over critical infrastructure is uncertain. The hardest part is we might still need to stay with this vendor for the next three to five years. I know this is a commercial decision that involved multiple factors, but emotionally, it feels like I failed. I let my team and my company down. I feel shame and guilt, and I'm worried about how I can continue leading this project and staying positive for my team and my clients for the next few years without affecting my mental health.

24:21I'm normally proud of my work, but for the first time in my 30-year career, I dread project meetings and even coming into work, knowing that I have to deal with these people who strategically misdirected and ruined any trust I had in them. The CEO and the board are super supportive, and we've retrospectively analyzed all the business decisions that led to this and devised methods to prevent it from happening again. I love my job, I believe in the company, and I want to be the kind of leader who owns mistakes and grows from them. But when I look to the future, my stomach is tied in knots, having to recover from this mistake.

24:56How do I move forward from this? How can I stay engaged and effective when every day might remind me of where I got it wrong? Signed, keeping my head high and vying not to be mortified as this mistake multiplies. Yeah, well, this is a tough situation. First of all, I'm really sorry this vendor screwed you. It sounds like a mistake any number of smart people could make. And maybe, sure, you overlooked some things, but it really does sound like these partners deliberately misrepresented themselves. And now you're essentially left to pick up the pieces. But I've been there and yeah, it hurts. All the thoughts and the feelings that you describe, they make perfect sense.

25:35But let's start by acknowledging a few bright spots in all this. You sound like a good leader, thoughtful, conscientious, responsible. You're also clearly invested in the mission of your company and well regarded by your colleagues. And I can see why you strike me as a solid person. Also, this partnership has already gone wrong. You didn't get fired. You didn't even get punished. That's a really good sign. And the CEO and the board are being super supportive. That is a great sign as well. If they didn't have your back or this mistake were truly as severe as maybe you feel it is, they probably would have sacked you immediately or at least put you on hard notice.

26:10And the fact that they're going, okay, this happened. Let's figure out how we got here. Let's make sure it never happens again. Not only is that a very encouraging signal, it's also a very positive way to manage a company. So I got to say, I really like what I'm hearing about your team and your company. So the first thing you got to do here, and you're already doing this, but it might be an ongoing process, you got to fully accept this mistake. And you have to forgive yourself. Accepting it fully means not indulging that part of your brain that wants to go, oh, but if I only did this or if, well, if I could have just done this, then that wouldn't have been so bad.

26:45What's done is done, man. If there are ways out of this partnership or ways to mitigate the downsides, hey, great, pursue those. But if any part of you is still resisting reality here, you got to make peace with it inside of yourself. And at the same time, you have to make peace with the fact that you were capable of making a decision that didn't turn out well. Obviously, this is how we learn. We can't be perfect. If someone as responsible as you can make this mistake, and if the company is confirming that you made good decisions leading up to this, that there was no massive oversight or reckless failure on your part, then anyone could have made this mistake.

27:17And by the way, that's compatible with doing the forensics and figuring out what happened and how to avoid this in the future as well. The second thing you need to do is fully acknowledge and own this mistake with your team. And again, you're probably already doing this, but I can't tell from your letter just how transparent you're being with your CEO, your other bosses, your peers, about what you're struggling with right now. I wouldn't blame you for wanting to put on a brave face, cover your tracks, not draw any more attention than necessary to the fact that you had a hand in this decision. But those are precisely the conditions for guilt and shame to grow, especially shame.

27:50And I wonder what would happen if you went to your CEO or your direct boss or your peers, whoever's involved in this, and just said, hey, guys, this whole vendor debacle is really doing a number on me. I feel I did everything right leading up to the decision, but it turned out poorly, and I feel that just ultimately reflects on me. I'm taking ownership of that fully, and I'm committed to making sure this never happens again. But I gotta tell you, I feel like I failed here. I'm feeling guilty. I'm embarrassed by how it's played out, how you guys might be viewing me right now, and I'm a little worried about how I can continue leading this project and stay positive knowing that we're stuck with these people for three to five years.

28:27And I just, I want to share that with you because this is where I am right now. And I could use your help in dealing with this, learning from it, showing up as the best possible colleague right now. Look, not every person wants to be that vulnerable at work. It depends on your personality, your relationships at this place, the culture, your company. If you worked in a super cutthroat environment, or if your bosses did not have your back the way that it sounds like they do, I probably would not tell you to do this. I'd probably say, hey, find your own ways of working through the guilt and shame, show no weakness, focus on solutions, no mercy.

28:59What is it? Strike first Cobra Kai, right? Sure. But because you have their support and this wasn't an epic level screw up, I think a script like that, it might just be the beginning of a really great conversation with your team. And I have a feeling that it'll also be a massive relief for you. I love that, Jordan. That combination of vulnerability and accountability is very powerful. Not a lot of leaders have the courage to do that. Exactly. Part of me wonders if really owning this mistake might even help his reputation. It's funny how that works sometimes, right? I guess that's that Jocko Willink extreme ownership principle.

29:33But whether you end up having this conversation or not, I would also keep an eye on the pieces of this that are yours to work on and nobody else's. Look, you might be the kind of person who does feel this outsized sense of responsibility. You might have a tendency to beat yourself up for things. Very common tendencies, by the way, for great leaders. This is kind of a superpower in a way, but it can also become a fatal flaw. In which case, again, there might be some work for you to do in figuring out why these responses come naturally for you. You know, get to the roots of that. Decide just how much of this you should take on, whether this guilt really does all fall on you or whether it maybe should be distributed a little bit among your team, which it sounds like that's the case.

30:14And just how best to work through all of these feelings. There is a process here that is yours alone. Totally. And I'll also throw in there why it might be hard for him to really take in his boss's support. Yeah, good point. I do get the sense that there's something else going on here besides I picked a vendor who ended up screwing us. Your bosses are saying, hey, it's okay, we've got you. And you're going, I don't know if I can keep showing up to work. Maybe it's hard to believe that your bosses really do forgive you, that they really do support you even after you made a mistake, which again, all of you guys made.

30:45So it is an interesting question. Why is that? Is it hard to internalize the support of the people around you? Perhaps that would be interesting to get to the bottom of, too. Agreed. And if he does that, I think this question of how do I stay engaged when every day might remind me of where I got it wrong? I think that question might go away, too, because right now, every day is a reminder of where he got it wrong as long as he approaches his colleagues and internalizes this decision in a certain way. But if he invites them in, if he starts to view this whole thing as a learning opportunity, not just a liability, every day won't actually be a reminder of where he got it wrong.

31:18Every day might be an opportunity to get it right, which is really a growth mindset. That is the shift that I hope you make here. You know, one very tactical thing he could do to show that he's really turning a corner is if they turn this mistake with this vendor into a kind of case study internally in the company, and maybe he writes it up as a white paper, he puts together a presentation or whatever. And he's like, look, here's what we went through with this vendor. here's what they told us, here's what we missed, here's the mistake I made when I was in charge of this, and here's what we've learned since.

31:46And we now have this framework for assessing vendors that is designed to make sure that we never end up in a situation like this again. And he sends it around to everybody like, hey, look what I've learned. I want to make sure that nobody else in the company makes that same mistake. That would send a really great signal to everybody. I mean, he can't change the past at this point to your point, Jordan, he needs to make peace with that. But what he can do is A, find meaning in it, and B, try to be of service to everybody else. If somebody on my team did that, I would be like, this guy's a keeper.

32:14This guy's a leader. This is exactly what you're supposed to do when you make a mistake. So maybe that's an idea you could play with. I like that idea. So you have some great work to do here. I promise you one day soon, you'll look back on this with a very different lens. So keep showing up as your best self, have the conversations you need to have, and I know you'll get there soon. Good luck. You can reach us at Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, you just found out your partner doesn't want children and you do, or you're debating whether to track down your estranged grandson after your son ruined your life by falsely accusing you of a number of heinous crimes, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com.

32:55We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, is a bite-sized gem almost every Wednesday. It's very practical, something you can apply right away. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. And you can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. All right. What's next? Hello, Magnificent Duo. I'm 32 years old, based in Italy, and have been investing in the stock market since I was 23. My dollar cost averaging strategy has worked well over the years, helping me achieve financial stability and now allowing me to purchase my second home, supported by a stable income from my nine to five and my investments.

33:36Wow, incredible. Hey, well done, man. A few years ago, in an effort to diversify my portfolio, I allocated funds to a couple of real estate crowdfunding platforms, including a specific one whose name, by the way, we're just going to leave out. And recently, I noticed that my five investments and properties on the platform have not paid out dividends for a long time. I wasn't overly concerned initially as delays and project holds had occurred before on the other platform I've used. But upon further investigation, I discovered that this platform has completely ceased communication with investors.

34:09Before, each project detailed the investment, payment schedule, potential delays, and exit options, and customer service was accessible via email. Now, all of that has disappeared. I've tried to contact the platform through multiple channels, but have received no response whatsoever. Reading online, I found that many other investors are facing the same issue, some as far back as 2022. It appears the company is now insolvent. In addition to withholding dividends, they're not refunding invested capital, and several investors have reported unsuccessful withdrawal attempts even for their non-invested funds.

34:45Practically speaking, the amount displayed on the accounts doesn't really exist. It is shocking. I've always considered myself a cautious and well-informed investor, and I take great pride in my financial journey, so I feel incredibly frustrated and dumb for not realizing all of this sooner. While the amount of my investment won't significantly impact me, I cannot accept the idea of leaving it in the hands of this company's shameful and dishonest CEO. What are my realistic options for recovering at least part of my investment, which is around 8 ,000 euros? Do you think there's any chance, however small, of retrieving part of my money?

35:23Are there any legitimate debt collection services I could use? And would there be any way to unite affected investors, given that we're spread across different countries? Signed, thought I was astute for the pursuit of this clever route. Now I'm trying to recover my loot. Is the answer a dispute, or is this all just moot? Because this platform was, at its root, a total crapshoot. My God, that's you're going hard in the pain today. Yeah, I figured this guy lost like 10 grand. Maybe a few extra rhymes would lift his spirits. Yeah, yeah, that's what he needs. A poem and an attorney. Yeah, seriously, we'll get into all that.

35:58So, yeah, man, this is infuriating. And I'm sorry this happened to you. Sucks. I know how much it hurts to get screwed by a shady company. My God, do I know. Although I guess that's also the risk you take when you invest in these sort of speculative, experimental financial companies that might go belly up or turn out to be scams from the start. crypto funds, need I say more? We wanted to run all of this by an expert, so we reached out to Erin Hoskins, bankruptcy attorney and friend of the show. And the first thing Erin said was, she understands that this situation is super frustrating, especially given that the company seems to still be taking investments from people, which that is crazy.

36:32So she had a few ideas. First, this company has a financial institution license from Estonia, and the company is governed by the European Union. So Erin said that it might be possible to submit a complaint against the company with the relevant licensing entity, maybe both in Estonia and at the EU level. The problem is, after that complaint is submitted, any action is then at the discretion of that agency. Now, if other investors also file complaints, it could lead to an investigation. And even if the money is gone, the company would likely lose its license and be subject to other consequences.

37:04Another option Aaron shared, look into involuntary insolvency proceedings. This would probably need to happen in Estonia, and Aaron knows nothing about Estonia's insolvency laws or processes, and of course, neither do we. But here's how this works in the U.S. Basically, three creditors can petition a bankruptcy court to put a debtor into an involuntary bankruptcy case. So instead of me being broke and declaring bankruptcy, which makes me want to sample the office, instead of doing that, you can say, hey, this guy owes me money. And if enough people do that, then the bankruptcy court says, oh, okay, well, you got to pay these people.

37:38Oh, you can't? All right, you're bankrupt. Whether I agree to it or not, whether I walk out of my office and scream at everybody else that I'm bankrupt or not. So there's a process that would allow the potential debtor to respond to the petition. But if the creditors succeed, a trustee would then be appointed to investigate and liquidate the debtor's assets. And that would include looking into any wrongdoing by the officers, the corporate debtor. So if Estonia has a similar process, and they probably do, the whole EU probably does, you could pursue that if there are other creditors willing to join you.

38:07And I assume the other investors would be if you could round some of them up. By the way, we did some very quick reading up on this. It does seem that Estonia's Bankruptcy Act, the Pankratis Sejados. So, hey, Estonians, how close was I? Every Estonian listener right now is cringing in their car. Their ears just, yeah, ringing. What was it? Pankratis Sejados? Pankratis Sejados. Okay, sorry. That sounds like a Greek crouton or something. Yeah, it does. Estonian language is related to, I think, Finnish, which is related to Hungarian, which is related to Bosque. Oh, I did not know this. And then every other language around is not related to them at all.

38:42It's like a melting pot of so many different European languages. Yeah, I don't know enough about it, but I do know that pancrotiseadus is really hard to say, and I'm not doing it correctly. But anyway, Aaron said that this could be a relatively cost effective way to proceed because you guys would only need to pay an attorney to file the petition and adjudicate the potential debtor as insolvent. And so once that's occurred, the trustee would hire counsel to recover assets if there are any. Pay that man his money. Hold up. That's John Malkovich from Rounders. Yeah. When he's like, no, he beat me straight up.

39:17Straight up. his fake Russian accent in that movie is worse than my pronunciation of pancrotiseadus but it's so bad and it's also so good it's funny at the same time that's an incredible performance he's a great actor but you gotta wonder why they weren't like hey take five minutes of accent training yeah hire a dialect coach Malkovich what is the other thing he says in that movie that always makes me laugh oh yeah when Matt Damon goes all in on the pot or whatever and he's like very aggressive laughing You should sample that. Very aggressive. Aggressive. The worst, like any Russian that's that fluent in English will not talk like that.

39:56Maybe. I don't know. I also love he wears like a red zip up tracksuit in the movie. Yeah, it's so good. Right on the nose. Yes. That part's pretty perfect. Anyway, sorry. That was amazing. Just got distracted by that rounders quote. Now, this could end up with you receiving nothing, even if you hire counsel and the trustee goes to recover the assets and the assets are all gone. Or if you do recover your money, the process could take literally years. But you might have the satisfaction of shutting this company down and having the people behind it investigated. And if they've done illegal stuff, then they could be punished for it, potentially.

40:28Aaron's other idea for you, you and other shareholders slash investors could look into bringing what's called a derivative action lawsuit or a class action lawsuit against the company. Now, a derivative action case, that's a lawsuit brought by a shareholder or sometimes a member of a company on behalf of the company, not on their own behalf. So basically, if executives have harmed the company through misconduct, a shareholder can step in and basically sue to force accountability. A class action lawsuit, as you probably know, that's when a small group of people sues on behalf of a larger group of people who all have similar problems with the same company.

41:03Now, again, Erin doesn't know Estonian law, so she wasn't sure whether these options are available. We did do a little homework here too, and it looks like Estonia does have these two options, but they are more limited and they're more structured compared to how it works here in the US. Aaron did say that it might be possible to bring a class action against this company in another country since you live in Italy, but probably only if investors from Italy were also harmed. Also, my legal knowledge is rusty, but here in the States, if a derivative action lawsuit succeeds, the damages go to the company, not directly to the shareholder.

41:36Oh, interesting. So that approach wouldn't necessarily or directly benefit you. And class action lawsuits, as we all know, they're usually pretty expensive. It's only worth doing if there are a substantial number of people harmed and there are definitely funds available to recover, which, based on what you've shared, not holding my breath there. Yeah, this might be a small platform where somebody is just absconded with the funds and is hoping people deposit more so they can abscond with those. On the flip side, if a class action is viable, then a lawyer will usually take the case on a contingency basis, meaning they fund the costs and then they take a portion of any judgment.

42:09So that would be a way for investors to sue without having to bear the risk and the cost. Obviously, you'd need to talk to a civil litigation attorney, ideally somebody who's done consumer fraud and finance cases before. So Aaron's take is that you probably don't want to go this route. This company seems to be misusing investor funds. So even if some of the money is left, there's probably not enough to make you guys whole and therefore not enough for an attorney to be willing to take the case. Now, about the idea to go with a debt collector, debt collectors usually buy a lot of accounts receivables from companies, usually for pennies on the dollar.

42:44And then they basically hound the people who owe to see what they can get. The debts are usually pretty old. They're harder to collect. Erin said that some law firms do debt collection work. So you could see if there's somebody who might be willing to put in some effort to get a response. But she's not sure whether a debt collector would be willing to purchase this particular obligation, given that it's just one from an individual. And there's probably not much more than that. Also, to your point about how shady these companies can be, Aaron said to be careful. Debt collectors not generally known for their ethics, as we all know, and God knows what they're like in Estonia.

43:16I'm picturing a lot of red tracksuits. Yes, exactly. And they probably just walk up to the person that they find that owes the debt and say, Pay that man his money. But if you do end up working with one, Aaron's advice, get any agreement in writing and try to make sure that the money is transferred before signing over rights. Although the agency might not agree because this business in general leads to a lot of risk. So Aaron was pretty direct with you. She said that unfortunately, there just aren't a whole lot of good options here. She said if you were a friend of hers and you could afford it, which it does seem like you can.

43:52she would probably encourage you to just let this investment go. Sadly, it would probably cost more to shut this company down and protect any future investors than to try to recover your piece of the money. But I would definitely look into filing those complaints and try to get as many other people who have also been bilked out of their money to do the same. You might not recover your funds, but you can still try to hold this company accountable. Yeah, and look, it's not impossible. I invested in a crypto fund years ago. It was through reputable folks and the fund itself got scammed. And the fund owner was like, hey, man, we have a massive loss.

44:28It looks like it's fraud. We're going to try to recover it. And I was like, kiss that money goodbye. And I've been following up for years. And just this month, they were like, hey, we do actually have an update for you. We have recovered almost all of the money for everybody in this whole fraud. Very unexpected. But I think what happened was they were paying attention to their investments because that is their job. they caught the fraud, reported it, and then whatever platforms or transfer banking, whatever's, were in charge of this, they basically just froze everything. And so there's something called the receiver, which can then say, you can release this money.

45:02So they're like, we have your money. And once the receiver authorizes the release of the funds, I'm just going to get my money back. Now, there's no return on it. So it's been sitting there doing nothing for, I don't know how long, four years or something like that or three, but I didn't lose my money. So look, if the EU takes action, there's a world where they recover some funds and you might get some or all of your money back. It might take half a decade, but are you really going to put in a ton of time and energy trying to get that for the next five years? I would not do that. I'm lucky because they have to recover the money because it's their duty to their shareholders.

45:36You might just do a ton of work where you could just earn way more than the amount of money you've lost with the time you spend on this. I would not spend too much time on this. I would file these complaints, forget about it. And if you ever see a dime of it, Hey, it's just gravy. You know, I'm just realizing that there's an interesting theme on today's episode. The guy we just heard from who hired that shady vendor and is struggling to go to work is feeling really wounded by that mistake. And I think our friend here is also feeling wounded. Like he said, he's so proud of himself. He considers himself a savvy investor.

46:03And then he goes through something like this. And I think it's in addition to the pain of losing the money. There's that sting of, am I really as smart as I thought I was? Am I really as good of an investor as I thought I was? And I think the same advice applies here, that the best thing you can do is when you take the L, try to learn from it and just apply that to everything else you do from now on. What else are you going to do? You can't change the past. You can't change this company. But I just think it's really interesting. Sometimes when you make a mistake, you can just sit with that mistake and it's just a mistake.

46:32It just hurts over and over again. But if you do something with it, then it starts to feel a lot different. Totally. Because listen, this stuff happens to all investors at some point. Basically, there's a saying in investing timing. The market is less important than time in the market. So this is also a terrific lesson for you as an investor and a relatively low stakes one. You're doing all of the macro stuff right. Your dollar cost averaging. You started investing early. Don't sweat the micro stuff too much. You're not wildly gambling out there trying to regain your losses. You're doing all of the right stuff and you've hit a little speed bump at five miles per hour too quickly.

47:10Not a big deal in the scheme of things. This is not going to be like, now I can't retire at age 65. That's not going to happen to you. So take the L, the very light L, figure out what you got wrong, learn, don't make this mistake next time, and I know you'll continue to succeed. Love that you're into taking such good care of yourself as well, and good luck. One thing I learned, I did all kinds of crypto investments and funds and real estate and da-da-da. And then I just was like, you know what? Screw it. Index funds, man. Because when you really compare all this stuff, if you are not hyper interested and you don't have a financial manager, it's just better to get rid of all of this fancy stuff and invest in index funds.

47:48By the way, this is not financial advice. This is just a little thing I've embraced in my own life. Set it and forget it. don't spend your life thinking about how you can get a 0.1 % higher return on whatever. Just don't make big mistakes. Have a good credit score so your mortgage isn't super high interest. Stuff like that is going to be way better than trying to eke out an extra half percent return on a risky real estate platform that only exists online in Estonia. And I think he's learned that lesson. But for everybody else out there, there's a reason that investment advice is generally put this in a S &P 500 and then go about your day and do it again every month for the rest of your life until you retire.

48:26That's good advice because it actually works. The returns are about as good as it gets. The end. You know who doesn't need our sponsor codes? The shady bastards who stole your money. You, on the other hand, could probably use some of the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable over at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

48:57If that doesn't work, always email us, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up the codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My mom is 70 and lives alone. She's always been a fiercely independent in person. She raised my sister and me alone from the ages of eight and five respectively, and she's always lived in the same small town in rural Canada that she grew up in, like most of our family has. I now live with my husband in Florida. I don't get home as often as I used to, but I do visit one to two times a year, and I get her down here about the same.

49:35After COVID, though, we do see each other a little less often, maybe once a year, because it's expensive, and I need to take a chunk of time off to make the expense worth it. Over the past few years, my mom has had some warning signs of possible memory loss. She's also exhibited some behavioral changes, including avoidance of getting something taken care of, like her well water not working and living off of water bottles, a lack of awareness about how severe a situation is, like getting an oil spill in her basement from having backflow into her oil tank or losing home insurance because of a forgotten payment, being oblivious, like having a flight delayed and not calling or texting to let me know that she would arrive another day, just to name a few.

50:20She's also had diagnosed seasonal affective disorder for years, as well as insomnia, and she's been on many medications for them for decades. Man, a lot going on, a lot to keep track of. These weird moments or behaviors seem fleeting and vague, so up until now, my sister, who lives nearby, and I have been keeping an eye out. But recently, my sister called me frantic one night because my mom had miraculously been found driving her car in the wrong direction, about 40 minutes away from home. She's been driving at night and left my sister's house after dropping her off, but must have taken a wrong turn or two and not looked at signs.

50:56She actually almost hit another car turning on a narrow road. She can't tell us how she ended up there and doesn't seem phased by the fact that somebody had to drive her home. Yeah, that's alarming. To be fair, these are back roads in the country with no streetlights in the winter, and these signs could be obscured by snowbanks. But I worry that this is the beginning of her decline, and how to manage her if things change. She's not owning up to what happened, if she even acknowledges the issue at all, which is also concerning. I don't want my mom to lose her license, which gives her freedom, but I also don't want her to hurt others while driving.

51:32Also, government assistance and programs in a rural area are hard to come by. I can't financially support her or pay for a home, and she still has a mortgage to pay off. But she does have a job now, I can see her bank account, and she's doing well financially. But I live hundreds of miles from home and can't really watch her, and my sister has two young kids and a full-time job. I also don't know if I can push for her healthcare team or psychiatrists to re-evaluate her and her meds. Are there any legal ways I can keep her safe, like getting power of attorney or conservatorship? How much should I intervene here and put my foot down about certain things like driving?

52:11And what are the basic measures and best practices for caring for an aging parent in decline? Signed, trying to do my best as my mother sunsets. Great question. This has actually been on my mind a lot lately because I'm also watching my parents get up there. And that's part of the reason they moved out to California. Now they live across the street from us. I know that's not possible for everyone, of course. So I really, I feel for you. living so far away from a parent in another country, no less, is just really challenging. And watching your parents start to slow down, especially in dramatic ways like this driving thing, that's got to be very stressful.

52:46I'd be freaking out if they found my mom driving around in the country the wrong direction like this. The bright spot is you have your sister nearby, which is wonderful. I'm confident you guys can find some ways to make sure your mom is staying safe. We wanted to talk to an expert about all this, so we reached out to Pam Dukes, expert in senior issues and friend of the show. Pam regulated senior services in South Carolina for the majority of her career. And she was also an executive director of a nonprofit for many years that provided senior services, where she often spoke with family members in the exact same situation as you.

53:17And the first thing Pam said was, this is such a familiar story to many who are helping with aging loved ones. The issues that you're raising, she felt that they were concerning. She also felt that it's important to know that it's probably only the tip of the iceberg, you only know what your mother tells you or what you and your sister observe. Okay. And Pam said that this isn't uncommon. Elderly people, they sometimes forget things that happen. Sometimes they intentionally hide things that happen because they know their loved ones are going to be like, oh crap, this is serious. This is worrisome.

53:47And maybe they'll limit their independence. Nobody wants to say, oh, I forgot where I was going, but I drove in the wrong direction. You should take away my car keys so that I can't function. They're going, oh, that was weird. Yeah, never mind. Not going to think about that anymore. Or another common scenario, an older person loses the cognitive ability to even recognize these issues or they forget about them or they don't recognize the significance of something which sounds like is happening to your mom. Oh, don't you think it's weird somebody had to drive you home from a random place because you were going in the wrong direction on the wrong side of the road?

54:20Yeah, no, whatever. What's for lunch? You know, that's even more alarming than the initial problem, in my opinion. Pam's thought for you, it's important that your mom be assessed by a physician. A doctor can determine for sure whether she's truly declining cognitively or whether it might be due to some other medical condition. And ideally, this would be a gerontologist, but a family physician can also work. Pam said it's also really important that you or your sister have access to that doctor. The easiest way to do that, of course, is to go to her appointment with her. And if your mom pushes back on that, remind her that she sometimes forgets things and And that one of you wants to be with her to pass along what the doctor says to the other.

54:57Pam also recommends going to that appointment with a list of concerning things that have happened recently. That way you can ensure the doctor has all of the information and your mom's not, yeah, nope, nothing, totally fine. Definitely not driving around the country by myself alone at night, forgetting that I left the stove on and the front door open. You also want to make sure that your mom allows you to access her medical information. That probably means having her sign a form at the doctor's office that says you can communicate with my daughters concerning my care. pretty standard HIPAA stuff.

55:25Now, it's interesting that your mom has a job. That's kind of amazing. Also pretty unusual. Pam said that cognitive declines are usually noticed at work. So you might want to ask her how work is going, what kind of feedback her boss is giving her, that type of thing. If she answers you honestly, that'll tell you if they're aware of what's going on. And if you happen to have a relationship with any of her colleagues, her boss, if it's appropriate, I might call them and ask how she's doing there, what they're seeing, see if there's any cause for concern. Now, assuming that your mom is declining cognitively, Pam said that there are other steps you can take to ensure her safety and well-being.

56:00First, most areas, even rural areas with few services, they should offer some kind of senior services. She might be eligible for home-delivered meals, if not daily, maybe weekly frozen, something like that. The people who offer this service, by the way, they often use the delivery appointment as an opportunity to check in with the senior. And if something isn't right, they can contact you guys. Pam said that some providers even offer a daily or weekly call service where they just call, just check in to see how someone's doing. Many areas also operate senior centers and provide transport for socialization, meals, stuff like that.

56:33Again, even in rural areas. Pam also recommends signing her up for automatic bill payments for as many services as possible. That way she doesn't have to remember to pay her bills every month. And some utilities have a feature where the company will call you if the bill goes unpaid or you and your sister could take over bill payments. Pam said you could actually ease her into this by telling your mom that you want her to show you what bills she has, how she goes about paying them, just so you know, in case there's an emergency one day. And if she's having trouble explaining the bills to you or you do this with her a couple of times and she finally gets comfortable at some point, you just go, hey, mom, why don't I just take over all this for you?

57:07You don't even have to worry about it. She might just go, oh, you know what? That sounds nice. Thanks. Yeah, I like that all sound advice. Now regarding the driving, Pam said that this is very concerning and yeah, clearly we strongly agree. Pam said that driving is perhaps one of the most difficult issues for aging seniors and their families to deal with because of course, giving up driving is often the beginning of a loss of independence. So she really gets it, but you obviously don't want something to happen to your mom or something to happen to somebody else because of your mom, just because nobody wants to really take this issue on.

57:37So Pam did have a few great ideas here. First of all, I had never heard of this, but several of the larger auto insurance companies apparently have these senior driver evaluation programs. And apparently some healthcare systems with geriatric practices also offer a similar type of program. Now, these programs are independent, and they basically assess a person's ability to drive safely by going out with them and observing them driving. And Pam said that sometimes the senior is more likely to listen to someone from one of these organizations than their child who's going, mom, no more driving for you.

58:11Sorry, you have to give it up. That was a mailman, not a speed bump mom, hand over the keys. Exactly. Also, when you tell her physician about what's been going on, they might go, okay, absolutely no more driving. You have to give up your driver's license, not safe. And if so, Pam's advice is just let the doctor be the bad guy and you and your sister enforce that decision. Pam actually pitched a dark Jordan idea here. I guess it's a dark Pam idea, which I did not see coming from Pam. So it really made me chuckle. But either way, soundbite worthy.

58:43So what Pam said was she knows people whose parents shouldn't be driving, but they wouldn't give up the keys. So they sabotage the car. They punctured two tires. Then the car has to be towed. They disconnect the battery cables, stuff like that. Then the car disappears for repairs and it just never comes back. Now, obviously, that's a lot of work for something that I hope your mom just collaborates with you on. But there's a little dark approach to tuck in your back pocket if she really fights you on this. What you don't want is your mom killing someone or hurting herself and then she loses her keys because she's in prison for something like that.

59:17That happens a lot. All you need to do is look online. There's so many videos of somebody at a gas station getting run over three times by an old guy who turns into the street. It's really terrible. In fact, my dad's uncle, before he passed, my dad went over to visit him and was like, oh, my God, your car is in terrible condition. And he was just like, I don't know. And the neighbor comes out and goes, your uncle has hit my house twice, pulling back into the driveway. Oh, my God. And so my dad was like, give me the keys to the car. Yeah. And then Pam threw out a bunch of other good ideas for aging parents.

59:47If your mom declines physically, you could get her a device to wear, you know, like one of those life alert products, something like that. If she falls, she just pushes a button and that'll call you and emergency services in one go. Kind of great. I've fallen and I can't get up. Just took me back to 1993. Oh, watching TV at home. 1987 or earlier. Yeah, it's for sure. Yeah, man, definitely. There are also GPS monitors or even something like an Apple watch, a device that would allow you to locate her at any time. Obviously, look, this stuff is not a substitute for adequate supervision. If somebody with dementia is prone to wandering or driving around, but it can certainly help.

1:00:26And if your mom forgets to take her medication, Pam said that there are these automatic medication dispensers that'll contact you if her medication is not taken, or at least if it doesn't leave the dispenser, which is kind of amazing. I never heard of this. You can also ask her physician if they can tell from the exam whether it looks like she's been taking her medications consistently. Bottom line, it sounds like it's time to plan for your mother's future care. And Pam's advice, find an attorney who specializes in elder law and go with your sister and talk with them about your options. Then bring your mom into the conversation.

1:00:55This attorney can advise you on power of attorney, living wills, estate planning, future care, all of that. Pam was very clear on this point. It is really important that you have these conversations with your mom now, not later, now. Pam told us that when her sister got frustrated by their mom at this stage, she told their mom that these decisions will be made and that she could make them now while she still has the ability to give input or they would make them later for her when she would have no input. So Pam's mom chose to make these choices herself, which is probably ideal, but not every mom is going to be open to that.

1:01:28And by the way, this is another reason that it's important to get a formal assessment by a doctor because that will help you know what she needs and it'll inform all of the planning for her future. I just want to quote Pam here. She said something really important. You're entering a phase of your mom's life that can sometimes be fraught with difficulty. So good luck and just keep your mom's best interests at heart. That will ensure that you're making the best decisions. Agreed. Your mom is lucky to have you and your sister looking out for her, sending you and your mom a big hug and wishing you the best.

1:01:59Big thanks to Pam for her wisdom and experience here. Pam now provides consulting services primarily to assisted living facilities. We're going to include her LinkedIn profile in the show notes if you want to connect with her. Gabe, I got to say, I find it so helpful and reassuring to talk to somebody who's a couple of life stages ahead of me and has seen a lot of this firsthand. Yeah. It's so wild watching your parents age. It's such a role reversal, but it's nice to know that there are some best practices and examples to follow. I'm not there yet. Right. My parents are both fine, but it's kind of a matter of time to look ahead.

1:02:29Yeah, totally. Yeah. All right. And now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler. By the way, Gabe, I don't know if you saw this. A show fan's child drew a graphic that says, I am addicted to lip filler. Oh, yeah. I saw this in our Slack. That's right. That was so funny. It's a giant pair of lips. She said, I listened to the show so much that my kid drew this in art class. It's so funny. We should send that to the guy who said this clip. And what show was this again? It's called Botched. And the guy's name is Jordan. So I can remember it really easily. His name's Jordan.

1:03:01We should find that. It's hilarious. and I'm just so glad that this meme is so strong that the kid hears it in the car, draws it at school. Just ridiculous. My recommendation of the week, this is speaking of ridiculous, is rippedbody.com. This sounds insane. It's my friend's company. He's coming on the show actually and I always make fun of him because his Instagram handle is Andy Ripped Body. So whenever we meet people, I'm like, tell her your Instagram handle and he's like, shut up, dude. He's like, it's a brand, not a descriptor. But it's the website and content that I used to lose 40 pounds of fat and learn how to count calories.

1:03:37And he has these really amazing books on nutrition and calorie counting and macros and stuff. Because that stuff was always really confusing for me and seemed to be just a whole lot of trouble and too precise and blah, blah, blah. So I grabbed the books from him. There's two books I recommend, the Diet Adjustments Manual and the Nutrition Setup Guide. they're both very reasonably priced at rippedbody.com they're really easy to read there's drawings in there all the concepts are really easy tells you the stuff that's important and then he's like here's how all this other stuff works basically you can forget about it worry about this one or two things and so I did that and like I said I lost 40 pounds of fat and I gained 10 or 20 pounds of muscle over the time that I was dieting and I reread these books every year I skim them and if I'm gaining weight I read that part and if I'm losing weight I reread that part and I sent them to Jen and she read them.

1:04:30She's like, wow, I actually understand nutrition for the first time in my life. So I highly recommend that if you're gonna try to gain muscle or you're trying to lose weight, start at rippedbody.com. He offers coaching and stuff too, but honestly, just grab the books. It'll be a massively educational experience for you. Even if you already lift weights all the time, it's not about weightlifting. It's about the food that you eat and how it all works in your body and why your body loses weight and loses muscle and keeps muscle. It's really interesting. And that's it, rippedbody.com. I'm willing to it in the show notes.

1:04:58Also, in case you didn't know, there's a subreddit for the show. If you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes or whatever, if there was an episode you liked, an episode you didn't like, a lot of episode-specific conversations happening there. There's also memes and funny stuff and just general conversation that I think is really cool. It's all on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, two years ago, I went through the most traumatic experience I could imagine. My wife of 15 years cheated on me and left me for another man. I watched her fall in love with this guy right in front of my face, all while she blamed literally everything on me.

1:05:36She took no accountability for her actions. To say that I was devastated would be an understatement. My self-esteem was gone, and I thought the world would be better off without me. I wrote a suicide note to each of my children and my parents. Then, one day, when they were all out of the house, I loaded my pistol, turned the safety off, and held the gun to my head as I screamed at my reflection in the mirror. Oh my god, my heart is racing hearing this. Oh my god. After a few minutes and further breaking down, I called a friend, gave him my pistol to hold onto, and went to visit my grandma four hours away, who at the time was dying of cancer.

1:06:17I'm so glad that you did that, man. Way to listen to that voice telling you to stay alive. What a miracle. I am very proud of you and I'm glad that you're with us. I'm sorry about your grandma. Since then, I have gone to so much therapy, made new friends and gotten new hobbies. And my relationship with my kids is better than it's ever been. I've accepted that I'm not the terrible person my ex-wife made me out to be. I'm truly living the best life I've ever lived. Incredible. What a journey you've been on. Gosh. Yeah. On the one-year anniversary of the event, the friend who held my pistol for me, my brother, and his wife and I, the only people who know about the suicide attempt, all went out to dinner to celebrate my new life.

1:07:00It was really meaningful to me. Almost like a birthday party, but far more significant. God, I love that. Man, that must have been an emotional night because I'm getting emotional just hearing this letter. Seriously. Now we're approaching the two-year anniversary, and I'm wondering whether to celebrate. I don't want this to be an attention-seeking thing. That's not what I'm after. It's not a celebration of the terrible event. It's a celebration of the fact that I'm alive. People love me. I love my friends. And things have never been better. I don't want people to pity me for this experience. I don't need sympathy anymore.

1:07:34But I know that's how people tend to react to this kind of news. What do you think of celebrations like this? Should I expand this to a larger group and invite new friends I've made over the last two years and tell them how much they mean to me? Is this a weird thing to celebrate? Should I stop? Also, is there any way for me to pivot my survival into some sort of suicide prevention slash awareness among my friends without it feeling like I'm drawing a lot of attention to myself? Thanks for going on this journey with me the last two years, gentlemen. Take care, and I'll keep tuning in every Friday.

1:08:07You've become something I look forward to each week. Signed, looking to embrace this complicated celebration. Yeah. Wow. What a story. I'm very moved by your letter. Thank you for writing in for these super kind words. And more importantly, thank you so much for taking good care of yourself and asking for help when you needed it. That takes a lot of courage, a lot of vulnerability, and look where it's gotten you. It's extraordinary. First of all, I'm so sorry that you went through all of this with your wife. I just can hear how painful that was to get to the point of wanting to commit suicide.

1:08:40Things must have been very dark. I can't even imagine watching that happen in front of your face and then have her be so cold about it and blame me for it. When I think about this, I feel my own heart just being torn into with claws. I can only imagine what you actually felt. Anyway, I'm so glad that you didn't go through with it. You decided to work on yourself in such an amazing way. You went to therapy, you built new relationships, you reinvested in your life. You are a case study of doing the work, man. Look where it's gotten you. How close your friendships are, how grateful you are to be alive.

1:09:10Now your kids get to have their father and the people in your life get to have a friend. And this is just all very touching. So I think the celebration is incredible. It's meaningful to you and to your friends. If it stays meaningful over the years, I say keep doing it and keep using it as an opportunity to take stock of your life, to express your gratitude to your friends for helping keep you alive, to reflect on how far you've come. I definitely don't think it's a weird thing to celebrate. It's unconventional, maybe, but it's not weird. Like I said, it's very moving. Now, it's an interesting question whether to expand it to a larger group.

1:09:44I guess my question for you would be, where is the idea to bring new people into this ritual coming from? It sounds like you want to tell the new friends you've made how much they mean to you, the profound role they've played in your life. I love that. I also don't know if you necessarily need to tell all those folks about the suicide attempt in order for them to understand how much they mean to you. Maybe this anniversary evolves into a more general celebration of life that only these three people or whatever it is know the origins of. Although sharing the full story, hey, it might make this ritual more impactful.

1:10:15And if you're concerned about this feeling like an attention seeking thing, maybe you literally say, I know the story I just told you is pretty intense. I worry that all this feels like a bid for sympathy or pity or attention, but it is not. I am just so grateful to be alive and I'm alive because of all of you. My life has never been better. I want to celebrate that publicly with all of you. And I just want to thank you for being a part of my journey. If you say something like that, and if you really mean it, of course, I'm confident that this is going to land the right way. Yeah, I do too. That's lovely.

1:10:47It's a good question which things we're supposed to really share out loud and with which people and why. I don't know if I have a strong opinion either way. This is totally up to you to decide. But sometimes we think we need to talk about certain things in order for them to be real, in order for people to feel them, for them to be alive. That's my tendency too. I can sometimes be very earnest and over-explain. But as I get older, I'm also starting to appreciate that some really meaningful things can translate just by us being in touch with them inside of ourselves. And then they can live in whatever we do or say without necessarily talking about every single aspect of them.

1:11:21So for example, if you threw this party and you gave a toast and in your toast, you talked about how much your friends mean to you and how much you've evolved over the past two years. Maybe you even say, Hey, I was in a really dark place not too long ago and things have turned around in this remarkable way. And it's because of all of you. And I just want to share that with you. If you're in touch with the intensity, the significance of that chapter, your friends are going to feel that they're going to go, man, this guy has been through something. His heart has been cracked open. He's generous.

1:11:50He's kind. He's vulnerable. sharing this with us, they're going to be moved. So again, nothing wrong whatsoever with telling all of these people, this larger circle, exactly what you went through. If that feels right to you, like the subtext of what I'm saying is not, you should be ashamed of the suicide attempt and you should not talk about it. That's not what I'm saying. It could be a very powerful moment, but I'm just giving you another possibility here. If you decide to keep certain details private, you can also trust that we don't always need to give voice to every single detail of an experience in order for our stories to make an impact.

1:12:23Yeah, good point. And when it comes to a story as meaningful as this, you might also want to ask yourself what sharing it widely might do to that story. It might enrich your story, bring you closer to your friends, give this anniversary even more meaning, allow your story to help other people, which I know is your other question. It could also chip away at the sacredness of your story. It could make it feel almost like a talking point in this context. It might make you feel like you're performing a little bit. But I am also, by the way, not telling you how to feel. I have no idea. Maybe you won't either until you do it.

1:12:54But because this story of yours is so charged and so profound and so personal, it does deserve the right treatment and the right intention, whatever you end up doing. Well, I guess this kind of gets at another interesting question, which is what is his relationship with the story now? And where is it going? Because this is all still very new. He's coming up on just the second anniversary here. So the story he seems to be living with is I was in a really bad place. No, I'm not. Look how far I've come. And I want people to know that, which is beautiful. But now that he's on the other side of this thing, his relationship to these facts might be changing and it'll continue to change.

1:13:30So for example, this year, he might think of himself as a formerly suicidal person who survived and wants everyone to know next year or the year after, or I don't know, five years from now, he might not identify with these facts in the exact same way. The way that his path is unfolding, he might be more interested in how rich and full his life continues to be. And he might not feel the need to talk about the suicide attempt with newer people as much. Just the fact that he's made all of these new friends since this happened in a big way, that was informed by the suicide attempt. But in another way, he formed those friendships as he was becoming a very different person.

1:14:07So what I'm getting at is it might be important for him that these people know what he went through, the person he was before they met, or he might want to just allow these new friends to know him as the person he is now, which he obviously feels is a much healthier and more authentic version of himself. And that is equally part of his story. That's just as valid. Good point. Or would that feel like hiding in some way? Okay, fair question. So maybe that's another thing to sit with. Would not telling your wider circle about the suicide attempt feel more like hiding from them, like depriving them of knowing something important about you?

1:14:41Or would it feel more like protecting something that's very personal and being thoughtful about whom you share it with? Again, that's only something you can answer. But I think deep down, we know when we're being thoughtful and when we're hiding, just like we know when we're being vulnerable and when we're looking for attention. Good distinction. As for your last question, I do think there's a way for you to use your survival story to help other people who might be feeling suicidal. That is really the power of a great story. But your intentions there have to be very clear, too. If you're doing it to raise awareness among your friends, that's going to translate.

1:15:15If you're conflicted or there are some other strands in there, it might not land the way that you hope. And maybe this is a good argument for sharing your story with your friends. If they hear that you went through this and they want to talk about something similar, that could really inspire them or make them feel safe coming to you. I guess it depends on how important this mission is to you. And there are lots of ways to pursue that mission. You could talk to your friends directly. You could go volunteer at a crisis hotline or a suicide hotline, which by the way, I did in high school and it was life-changing and I love it.

1:15:46And part of me even wants to go maybe volunteer again later in life. It's quite something. You could, I don't know, work with a mental health nonprofit or a charity where you get to tell your story or work with people directly. You could write about this experience or speak about this experience, what you went through, what you learned. there are a lot of ways to put this experience to good use. My feeling is that your story would make a huge impact in any of these roles. You're just, you're so connected to the meaning of the last two years and what it actually requires to recover from stuff like this.

1:16:14So I do wonder if initiatives like the ones we just mentioned might help you create even more meaning out of this in addition to this party. I think it might. Wherever you tell your story, whoever you tell it to, it's going to make an impact. All you need to do is get clear on where it feels most useful and appropriate and authentic to you and stay connected to your why. And I know that you'll hit the right note. Again, man, I'm so glad that you're alive. I'm so impressed by how far you've come. You are a case study in doing the work, staying connected to meaning, cultivating close relationships that can take care of you when you need it.

1:16:47It is honestly, it's super inspiring to hear. So keep up the amazing work. And hey, man, keep on thriving. Don't forget about Ed Helms and Daniel Levitin on the power of music to heal in a very non-woo-woo, very sciencey way and are out of the loop on Rwanda and scam call centers if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. Sounds like some of our letter writers here on Feedback Friday are feeling the same. Our course, Six Minute Networking, teaches you how to build something similar for yourself.

1:17:16It is free. It is not schmoozy. It's not gross. It's not transactional. It's on the Thinkific platform over at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig the well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Again, 6minutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show. All at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi.

1:17:47This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, so do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Aaron Hoskins and Pam Dukes. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice that we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

1:18:24This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do you actively do it? That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in. This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day, you'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem. It's no wonder the show has climbed up to the top as the number one history podcast. It covers history, science, technology, geography, and stories of remarkable people, always in a way that keeps you hooked. Not sure where to jump in? Start with these favorites.

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