1196: Does Sister's Past Give Her Abuse a Free Pass? | Feedback Friday

22:17In that time, I learned that my best friend and his wife invited her to continue the Saturday morning gym sessions whilst I wasn't attending. I took issue with this and told my friend that I'm not okay with it and that it will cause an issue between us if it continues. He said, well, maybe you shouldn't have let your partner and my wife become friends then. But they weren't close friends before we broke up and have only met each other half a dozen times. I let it slide for a while, then attempted to clear the air between my ex and me and started reattending the gym sessions. It did not go well.

22:48She refused to talk to me or look at me, and when I tried to pull her aside for a five-minute chat, she started yelling at me. And so did my best mate's wife, who I've also known for 10 years. Huh. It's been a few months since this happened, and I've sort of come to terms with the situation. But recently, my friend invited me to an annual badminton tournament he holds and told me that she will be attending. Oh, shit. Well, you know what happens at badminton? She's gonna be handling someone's shuttlecock, you know what I'm saying? man. You're making it so much harder for him. I know. I'm just kidding.

23:20What was the badminton? Oh, it was badminton the place that the college student was meeting all these different guys. She was cleaning up at the bed. Right. That's right. She was like, I go to these badminton things. And we were like, what is up at badminton? There must be a lot of downtime. And then we made the shuttlecock joke like 50 times until people got sick of it. I knew that sounded familiar. I was trying to place it. Yeah. I told him that if she were attending, I would not be because I'm not going to put myself through the anxiety. I've explained to him how the whole situation made me feel and the lack of support I received from him.

23:48I haven't received an apology, just the advice to move on. I'm upset that this happened when I thought that they would have my back in this situation. Am I being too unreasonable in distancing myself from my best friend because he and his wife chose to continue a relationship with my ex? Should I try and move past it? Or do I just accept that some friends don't have your back when it truly matters? Signed, on the outside after needing to cry because my guy's implying that my ex is the prize. Ah, yes. The old who gets to keep the friends in the breakup conundrum. Tale as old as time. Tough one.

24:21Okay, there are a bunch of things going on here. Let's try to pick them apart a little. First of all, yeah, this sucks, man. I'm sorry your ex and your son didn't get along. That is not good. I'm sorry about the breakup. I'm sorry about this recent turn of events. I can appreciate why it's throwing you for a loop. My sense is that more than anything, it's making you feel kind of alone in all of this, and I'm sure that this just hits extra hard after losing your partner. I know that watching people pick teams, even if they're not trying to, can be painful, especially when emotions are running high after a breakup and your ex is not being the kindest or most communicative and you want to feel like your homie has your back.

24:57But actually, that's what I'm most interested in in his letter, what it means to him for someone to have his back. It sounds like them choosing to be friends with his ex, that feels like a betrayal, and I guess in a certain way, I do get that. I also don't know if that's necessarily what it means or what it has to mean. I mean, is there a world where they can be friends with her and you, especially as things continue to settle down with time? I'm just a little confused about why this is such a betrayal. Well, I think the reason he feels this way is they seem to be doing it pretty callously. Right.

25:27I mean, I'm actually surprised by the way your friend responded to all this. Like, well, maybe you shouldn't have let your partner and my wife become friends then, which is sort of absurd. I don't know if you're giving us all the information here, but that doesn't sound like the kindest way to respond to a guy, your best friend for 20 years. Yeah. Who is obviously hurting. Yeah, that is weird. This is your best friend. He couldn't have been like, look, man, I know it's hard for you that Alice and Emily want to stay friends, but it's up to them. We're not going anywhere. I'm still here for you, homie.

25:54Come in and have a beer. He sounds like he's just, you know, hey, suck it up. This one's on you for bringing her to living room CrossFit. Come on. To be fair, those CrossFit bonds. Those run deep. Yeah. Yeah, they do. If you think if you think hot yoga is masochistic, just go to a few hit classes with somebody. You get real. It's all that tire flipping. I think it's the cardio till you puke. That'll that'll trauma bond you for life. Exactly. So this raises a question for me, which is why is your best friend responding to you in this way? And what does that say about him and about your friendship?

26:23I'm not saying you need to ditch him or anything. It's just a question and maybe another conversation for you guys to have, if that feels right, like, hey, man, I'm a little confused. If you and Alice want to be friends with Emily, maybe I can learn to get there. But the way you reacted when I was struggling with it fresh off the breakup, surprising to me. It hurt. I expected a little bit more understanding, maybe some solidarity. And since we're homies for 20 years, I just feel the need to tell you that. Can you help me understand why you responded that way? But it sounds like he tried to do that and he did not get much back.

26:55Right, although I wonder how that conversation went down at the time. Maybe a few months later, things have calmed down a little bit. They can try in a different way. But I hear you. You didn't receive an apology, just the advice to move on. And unless you're editorializing here and you're cutting out, you know, 90 % of the conversation, that doesn't really sound like a friend who's treating you very well. But how did the breakup go? Maybe there was just some big mess that just... Because here's the thing, Gabe. Oh, my son doesn't get along with you and we just can't make you guys click. Well, I'm really sad about that.

27:25And I understand because I won't be a good stepmom if we get married, if your son hates me, amicable breakup. But clearly that is not what happened if she won't even look at you on Saturday morning. So your question is what happened there? There's more to it. What happened? Yeah. There's obviously way more to it. Yes, she didn't get along with your son and you said there's more to it, but that's the tip of the iceberg, obviously. Is she the problem? Is he the problem? Is the son the problem? Did the dad not try to figure out why the son was having trouble with her? Like there's so much about that subplot that we don't know that might hold a key to all of this.

27:55Well, she's super angry to the point where she won't talk or look at him. And then when he tried to pull her aside, she yelled at him and so did the friend's wife. Something bad happened and it's just not in the letter, which is a little sus somehow. I got to be honest. Anyway, to your question, do I just accept that some friends don't have your back when it truly matters? That's globalizing a little bit. It's kind of telling a larger story that might or might not be true. I think the better question is, why is this friend responding like this to me? Why can't we really talk? And is it fair for me to expect him to not be friends with my ex?

28:27Why does that matter so much to me? I'm not saying it's not awkward. I'm not saying you're crazy for feeling anxious that you're going to run into your ex every Saturday in this friend group. I think it could, of course, be really hard to be around an ex, especially if things ended poorly. But to be fair, I don't know if that also means that she can't be friends with your friends if that's what they want to do. But how this lands with you, so much of that comes down to how kind and respectful everyone's being about everybody's feelings. And candidly, a lot of people in this situation just do not seem to be handling this very well at all.

28:55You know, Jordan, I'm kind of scratching my head here a little bit. I'm finding it hard to put my finger on what is actually happening in this story. To your point a moment ago, there's a lot going on between the lines. There are things not included in the letter. We don't have all the details. And it's... Yes. I'm frustrated because I can't quite get there. Like I said before, I can't quite put my finger on why. Like, I get how he feels. I can also imagine how his friends and ex might feel. but there's a fuzziness here that doesn't add up. We're missing too many details. What stands out to me about his letter is that there seems to be a lot of conflict in his life, in different parts of his life, right?

29:29His ex and his son didn't get along, that caused issues. There were other reasons for the breakup too. I do wish he had told us what those were. He and his friend are having this friction about being friends with the ex. When he tried to talk to the ex at the workout, to your point, she started yelling at him and then his best friend's wife got in on it and yelled at him. Right. Now he won't go to a badminton game where she's going to be because the anxiety is just too overwhelming. And now he has this feeling that some friends, even close friends, just do not have your back, which to your point is a story.

29:55And that story seems to be one born of hurt. Yes, but it's also being fueled by what sounds like some suspicion, disappointment, distrust. And that's at least partly his stuff. Yeah. A lot of conflict, a lot of turbulence. I hesitate to draw too many conclusions from all of this, but we're hearing from a guy who was reasonably heartbroken and might be discovering that his friendships are not quite what he thought they were. And if that's the case, that might not be entirely bad for him to see. But it raises some questions for me as well. Why exactly was it hard for a son to connect with his ex?

30:28This friend who's not being especially empathetic to him right now, is this coming out of nowhere? Or did he overlook this quality early on and he's only seeing it clearly now? And this whole thing about the friends picking the ex, what is that about? Is it just that they like her and they don't want to say goodbye to her or, and I hate to give him something else to be anxious about, but I do think it's kind of a fair question. Are they maybe taking her side in the breakup a little bit and they're not telling him that? I had the same thought. Look, his friends can be friends with him and his ex without necessarily assigning blame or making a ton of judgments.

30:58But it is a little curious to me that the wife and his ex only met each other like six times and now suddenly they're friends, the thickest thieves. Maybe the breakup brought them together, but maybe what they're hearing about the breakup is also making them identify more with his ex than with him. Obviously, she controlled the narrative when she started or kept showing up to Saturday classes while he was at home isolating. I know that he's hurting, so I want to be delicate here, but I guess I just want to invite him to be a little bit more curious about why his friend is responding to him this way, why his ex is yelling at him, why his friend's wife is also yelling at him, why people seem to be prioritizing his ex over him, even also why all of this is provoking so much anxiety in the first place, because all he seems to be able to see right now is, you know, how the whole situation made me feel, the lack of support I received.

31:45Yeah, that's what's nagging at me. It's a lot of why isn't everybody giving me what I want? It's not a lot of, okay, I'm not getting what I want. Maybe I should try to understand why that is and how everyone else is seeing me in this situation. And that quality, that lens can make conflict a lot worse. It makes it so much harder to resolve. It also doesn't do much to earn people's goodwill and loyalty. So I do wonder if that's playing a role as well. It's also possible that he picked friends who really just don't have his back, just to put another theory on the table. But I'm with you. Whenever I hear kind of a monolithic statement like, oh, some people just never have your back when it counts.

32:17It tells me that there's some nuance missing here. It's never as simple as that. And if it is, there's got to be some reason. There's just one other thing we need to touch on, which is this tendency he has to stay away from situations that are distressing to him. Right. He said that he isolated for three weeks after the breakup because he was going through some mental health stuff, which, look, again, breakups suck. Sometimes you just need to be alone. I get it. Fine. But also, is that the best way to take care of yourself when you're going through a breakup? You know, did it feel impossible for him to show up to his workout class as a guy who was hurting?

32:49You know, what was he afraid that he would encounter there? also maybe him staying away from their class is kind of what made his friends think they could invite the ex so in in some ways he might have inadvertently helped create this situation by isolating like i said she ended up controlling the narrative clearly that's interesting yeah and now he might be doing it again by saying that he won't go to the badminton event because it's just too much so i'm not blaming him for this exactly but i do think he could get again more curious about why these places and people are so difficult for him sometimes like if he wants to work out, if he wants to play Batman, what would it look like for him to be there and to be a little bit anxious or a little sad or a little vulnerable?

33:27Like, why does he feel the need to stay so far away? Why does staying away often feel like the only option? There's something important for him to understand about that, I think. So to answer your question, I don't know if the answer is necessarily to try and move past this. I do hope that in time it doesn't hurt as much, of course, but all this frustration and anxiety and confusion, these are opportunities to get to know yourself better and to understand the people around you better. And if you do that, I promise you'll move through this period just fine and take some great lessons from it as well.

33:56Anyway, lots of potential growth here, bud. Don't invest in the story too much. Just try to learn and good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're trying to help a friend escape the Sri Lankan mob, your neighbors are eavesdropping on your therapy sessions through the wall, or you've fallen in love with an atheist and you have to tell your traditional Muslim family whatever's got you staying up at night lately hit us up friday at jordanharbinger.com we're here to help and we keep every email anonymous by the way our newsletter if you haven't signed up yet wee bit wiser it's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you delivered to your inbox most wednesdays if you want to keep up with the wisdom from the show in a very digestible two-minute read way you can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news all right what's next hi jordan and gabe i've been with my boyfriend for almost six years we both work in semi-niche fields, and I'm about to graduate with my master's degree.

34:50I like my current company, but I've grown jaded with the opportunities here and want to use my degree to pursue a job in a more specific part of my industry. But my boyfriend and I aren't really able to work remotely, and our companies are the only options for us in our state. So for me to get a new job, we need to move. The problem is that my boyfriend's industry, game development, is really rough. From a practical standpoint, we agreed that he would get a job first in an area where there are many opportunities for both of us, so in case one of us loses our job, there would be opportunities nearby without needing to move so far again.

35:24Since my boyfriend started looking for a new job a few months ago, he's had a few interviews and rejections. The whole process really stresses him out. We recently got the news that he didn't get a job opportunity he was in the final round for. He's devastated, and I am too. I now feel like my career is being held hostage. I just spent around $30 ,000 to get this degree. I feel like now's the time to make a big career move, and I can't, because my boyfriend can't find a job elsewhere. I also know it isn't fair to him because he's been trying, but I get the sense of dread that because of this recent blow to his confidence, it'll be even harder for him to search in the future.

36:02I'm trying to look on the bright side. My career is stable, I've been asked to take on more responsibility at work, and one of my current projects is super exciting. There's still that discontent though. There have been interesting job opportunities I can't apply to because of my boyfriend. How can I keep the knowledge I gained from my master's degree so when I do get my chance, I can seize the new opportunities that I want? In your opinion, does a master's degree quote-unquote expire? If I don't make a career move within the next few months, am I screwed? What would you do? Signed, a job seeker trippin' and seeing her confidence dipin'.

36:36Cause the clock is tickin'. Yeah, I hear you on all this. This is frustrating. And I know the job search, two job searches, which depend on each other, that can be really stressful. So let's get a couple things out of the way first. No, a master's degree doesn't expire. I know you're not asking literally, but unless you have a degree in some very niche technical field where the tech is moving so quickly that what you learn might not apply in five years, like, I don't know, maybe machine learning or something. Maybe then time is of the essence. But even then, man, I just, I don't think it's really a huge risk.

37:06You're probably not going to go another five years without finding another job. And frankly, I think saying the quiet part out loud is most employers just make you jump through the hoops of getting a degree because it proves you can work hard in a specific field. I remember when I started my law job, I was like, guys, I don't know anything about the law. I just graduated from law school. But I mean, I was right. And they were like, calm down. It's a screen to see if you are allergic to work. And I'm like, well, then why the hell did we bother getting law degrees and they're just like, eh, it's a requirement to pass the bar, yada, whatever.

37:38You know, you're a glorified secretary for two years. It's just kind of a rigmarole. Anyway, your degree, any degree, it just means very little in and of itself. What you do with the degree, the story you tell about the degree, that's what matters most. It sounds salesy and cynical, but it's true. Very few employers, if any, are going to quiz you about the nuances of your coursework. They'll probably ask you about your program at a high level, maybe what you got out of it, what your understanding of your industry is, but I just don't think they're going to care all that much about the substance of the curriculum.

38:09And you can also direct those conversations in a way that keeps the focus on the stuff you want to talk about. Now, if there are specific aspects of your master's degree that are important and you need to keep them fresh, yeah, sure, put in the time to keep them alive. Initiate projects at work that'll require them. Teach them to your colleagues so they're top of mind. Hell, use ChadGPT to quiz you. write an article or a blog post about him, which, by the way, I think would also be a great thing to put on your resume and talk about in interviews. And no, I don't think that if you don't make a career move within the next few months, you're screwed.

38:39It sounds to me like you have a timeline in your head for how this job search should go. And if you don't make it, then you're in trouble. That's a lot of pressure. The job search is stressful enough. I don't know if you need to also add in this aggressive timeline, which, by the way, a completely made up timeline from the out of it, I don't think you need to add that on top of it all. So actually, I think your letter might be about that. The problems you objectively have and the problems you might be inventing or bringing into this situation voluntarily for some reason. My advice is keep focusing on your job search, keep supporting your boyfriend in his job search, keep planting seeds, keep putting one foot in front of the other.

39:17Every job search has its own logic and timeline and I promise you if you put in the work, everything else will take care of itself. To agonize over the timing or the details or the consequences, if you don't achieve certain things on certain timelines, it's just not going to get you anywhere. I totally agree, Jordan. The other thing I think her letter is about is how her boyfriend is navigating his job search. I thought it was really interesting when she said that he was devastated that he didn't get a job opportunity. He was in the final round for it and it didn't go his way. Sure. Now she's devastated.

39:46And she said that the rejection was a real blow to his confidence and now it's creating this sense of dread, which is a very strong word. And the dread is that it will be even harder for him to search in the future. So there's something going on there too. Well, she's really taking on a lot of his stuff, isn't she? Or at least being impacted by it quite a bit. I think so. And look, in a way, it's normal and sweet, right? Her boyfriend's having a hard time. She identifies with him. She wants very badly for them both to succeed. I get it. But it also sounds to me like her boyfriend struggles with rejection.

40:15You know, a disappointment like this is not just a setback, it's potentially a fatal blow. And then he loses confidence, he loses steam, and then she goes through her own process, which might be her anxiety, the same anxiety that might be making her over-engineer this timeline that you were just talking about. But it might also be partly her taking on his despair, his vulnerability as her own. Yeah, I can see that. But to be fair, I think that's how most relationships operate. It's hard not to be affected by your partner's moods, especially when their fortunes are tied to yours. And I totally get that.

40:46But still, I think there's something for her to look at there for both of them. It just sounds to me like there's some subtle process that happens between them when they hit a roadblock, right? He has a tendency to collapse when he gets rejected, to not maybe process setbacks in a way that allows him to feel the injury, grieve, recover, and then keep going, which is like resilience in a nutshell. And then she has the tendency to take on that despair and frustration and then to spiral out. And then also to catastrophize, For example, worrying that it's going to make it even harder for him to search in the future.

41:16They're never going to be able to step into this new chapter. So what do they do with those assumptions? What do they do with those feelings? Are they talking about them? Are they not talking about them? I just feel like there's something they could work on there. Yeah, you can almost see the game of pinball that takes place here. His feelings, her feelings, his feelings, her feelings, dot, dot, dot. I'm filled with dread. We're never going to get new jobs. We're going to be stuck here forever. Yes. And the way out of it is to manage this anxiety and this catastrophizing tendency on our own, for sure.

41:43but also to support her boyfriend however she can in learning to be sturdier so that he can keep putting himself out there and risking rejection, which we all know is part of the job search. But then when it doesn't go his way, pick himself back up, dust himself back off and keep going. That's a skill. I agree 100%. Also, one last practical thing. I would investigate all your assumptions about how this job search has to go because I think that's also constraining your options and creating more distress than you need. I get your logic about both of you finding a job at the same time. I'm not saying you don't have a good reason for that, but it also sounds to me like you're working very hard to manage your risk and protect your downside, which is very much an anxiety-driven strategy.

42:22And I wonder what would happen if you let go of some of those beliefs about how the job search has to go and in what order and on what timeline, or at least held those beliefs a little more loosely. Daddy chill. Because there might be a timeline where you get a job first or he gets a job first or you guys make this move anyway and then things fall into place or you spend a few months apart while one of you starts a new job and you make that work as so many people do or you find a way to do the remote thing for a while or some totally unexpected opportunity pops up while you guys are investing in your relationships and taking meetings and that allows you to take a step in the direction you want you just don't know but when you cling this tightly to a certain version of what your life should look like you often miss an even better one.

43:07And you'll create a lot more opportunities to be frustrated, candidly. Whereas if you just keep putting dots on the board and connecting them up, like I said, the rest just really does tend to take care of itself. So play with that idea and see what happens. We're rooting for you guys. And good luck. You know what does expire? Our promo codes for the deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

43:38All of the deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. And hey, if that doesn't work, email us. We are happy to dig up codes for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to it, fella. My recommendation of the week is, I know we got flack last time about saying, put things into ChatGPT because it uses so much power. But here's the thing. I did something that really changed the way that I operate day to day.

44:11I busted out ChatGPT. I put in all of the vitamins and supplements and medications that I'm taking and when I take them. And it was like, oh, well, if you're taking this with milk, it's not getting absorbed. And if you're taking this with this, it's competing for receptors. So put this later and put this one earlier. And you got to take this one with food. And it was just like, oh, I didn't know any of that. And I was probably peeing out half my vitamins and making my medications less effective. And of course, I checked with my doctor just to sanity check this. You could check with any pharmacist too, generally.

44:42And they were like, oh yeah, this is correct. I didn't realize you were taking all this at the same time. Another thing, Gabriel, that I did last night was my mom. She's 83, almost 84. She's on a bunch of different medications and she takes vitamins. I threw that stuff into chat GPT and it was like red flag. You should never take these two medications together. If your doctor prescribed them, make sure he has a very good reason for you taking these things together. And so my mom's like, oh, OK, I didn't know that. And it turns out she just basically didn't read the instructions on the medication, which because I get it.

45:15It's hard to see. And they probably told her once three years ago and blah, blah, blah. Right. And it wasn't something that was going to kill her. And maybe the doctor did tell her, fine, take it at the same time, but it's like, it's going to make you dizzy and it's going to make you feel kind of crappy and you're supposed to take this with food. And if you don't, it's going to make your stomach upset. And so, you know, these things, why live that way? Why live that way when chat GPT can tell you about interactions or when you should take something with food? There's another thing is, you know, like many people, she takes some thyroid medication.

45:43It was like, make sure you take this 60 minutes away from taking it with food so it gets absorbed quickly and don't take anything within four hours of taking this because it'll compete for receptors or potentially have a harmful interaction. And she's just like, oh, I had no idea. So throwing this stuff in there, chances are you're not going to have a drug interaction. Most of us are not going to have a lethal or potentially really dangerous drug interaction. So put everything into ChatGPT, the amount, the name, and when you are taking it. And you might be pleasantly or unpleasantly surprised about what happens, but it'll tell you how to fix it.

46:15Then you sanity check it with a doctor or pharmacist so you don't screw up something real bad. and then you can change your medication or supplementation plan. All right, that's my recommendation of the week. And in case you all don't know, there's a subreddit for our show. If you want to slam about how I am wrong about something, that seems to be a common hobby of many in the subreddit. But if there's an episode you like or an episode you didn't like, or you want to opine on a Feedback Friday question, that's all happening over there in the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Okay, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe.

46:45A couple months ago, I was laid off from what I thought was my dream job. I'm now struggling to find the motivation to do literally anything, from applying to job postings and putting together a portfolio, to getting out of the house and exercising. On episode 1179, you talk to an aspiring military chaplain who is being denied from his dream career and said something that stuck with me. Are you truly called to be a chaplain, or is this possibly a means of vocational therapy? Yeah, that was an interesting story. So by vocational therapy, the expert we talked to meant, was that listener trying to sort of therapize himself or work something out through his career that might or might not be a true fit for him?

47:28I've known for a while that my career likely came from a trauma response. I'm an interior designer, and growing up, my house was chaotic. Both of my parents have hoarding tendencies, and when I was a teenager, several traumatic events my mom experienced sent her into full-blown hoarding. I couldn't have friends over, it was nearly impossible to find things that I needed when I needed them. There was no space anywhere to do anything, and the constant stress of living like that changed me. I moved back in with them in my 20s when I was trying to decide what to do with my life, and cleaning their house gradually led me to value interior space in a really profound way.

48:05I found a bachelor's program nearby, and the rest is history. That is fascinating. What an interesting path to interior design. It's very personal. I love it. About a year into this last job, though, I started really struggling with task management and prioritization. I was terrible at getting back to people, and all of my projects suffered. I started to see aspects of my mother's habits and the way she tackles problems creep into how I showed up at work, i.e., she ignores them. I fully admit that I was probably an easy choice when budget cuts led to layoffs. If I'm being completely honest, it was a relief.

48:41Well, I'm sorry to hear all this, but I really appreciate the way you're taking accountability. Yes. And just generally seeing yourself so clearly. Not everyone can do that. So, brava, that's half the battle right there. I'm now trying to figure out my next steps without being too hard on myself. I love being an interior designer, and I know that it's what I'm meant to be doing. But I feel like my brain is rebelling against me, and I don't know what to do. What if there is some vocational therapy mixed into my motivations? And what questions should I be asking myself to get out of this funk? Signed, trying to restart the engines while questioning my intentions, when all I want to do is some spatial intervention.

49:18Man, yeah, great questions. So first of all, sorry you were laid off. I'm sorry it's been a struggle to stay connected to your work. That's never fun. I know how frustrating it is to not feel like you're consistently connected to what you're doing, like you can't always trust yourself to get things done and earn your keep. But like I said, your honesty, your clarity, your vulnerability, even in just coming right out and saying, man, I've got some tricky patterns I need to work on. I'm like my mom in this and that way. Those are excellent qualities. So let's talk about your relationship with your work for a second.

49:47You said that a year into your last job, this stuff started to creep in. It sounds like a struggle to focus, to structure your work, to follow through. It sounds like there was some flakiness and procrastination in there too. And at the root of that flakiness and procrastination, it sounds like there was this avoidance, which your mom has too, which I find interesting because we absorb so many things from our parents, good and bad. And one of them is our basic relationship with the responsibilities of life. Now, I'm hearing something else in your letter, this funk you described, which, I mean, candidly does sound a little bit like depression or a depression-like experience, it's hard to say whether the avoidance we just talked about is causing this depressiness or whether the depressiness caused the avoidance.

50:28Both can be true. It's probably a feedback loop. Maybe they're ultimately the same thing because when you're depressed, it's hard to feel connected to yourself. It's hard to feel invested in life. And if you don't feel those things, it's really, really hard to get things done and make things happen. The tricky thing about depression, Gabe, you've taught me a lot about this. I'm not as familiar with the mechanics of this stuff, but depression can come in many varieties. It can serve many different functions. A while back, we took a letter. I wish I could remember what it was about. It doesn't really matter.

50:56We took a letter where we talked about depression as a tamping down of sorts, a shutting down of other more difficult feelings, right? Depression almost as like a defense. Yeah, very, very common. That's right. So underneath this depression, underneath this avoidance, there's almost always a handful of feelings that we don't want to be in touch with. Sometimes it's anxiety. Sometimes it's stress. Sometimes it's distress. Sometimes it's shame. For example, the shame of feeling like we can't keep up or that we're imposters or that we promise things we can't actually deliver, which just makes us want to avoid everything even more.

51:29And that vicious cycle, we think it's the work, right? That's turning us off. And sometimes it is. But usually it's what the work puts us in touch with. I'm not saying ADD or ADD type stuff isn't real. It is. But even if you happen to have that wiring like I kind of do, I still think it's a useful question to ask. What am I really avoiding when I'm avoiding my work? What aspects of myself do I not want to have to be in touch with? I actually make jokes about this. Like I'll be in the kitchen with Jen and I'll be looking for a snack and she'll be like, what are you looking for? And I'll go, oh, I'm snack crastinating because I don't want to write the extras for this episode.

52:05And she's like, you always do this. And it's like, yeah, I just, I don't like revisiting past work and then trying to summarize it. It just feels like going backwards to me. And it's a ridiculous kind of thing. And I always do that. I just snack crassene. I end up eating some ruffles and then I got to sit down and do it. Right. So it's just a thing that people do and you've got to be aware of it. Otherwise it'll kind of control you. So if you want to climb out of the funk, the question I would be asking is, what are those underlying thoughts and feelings? What's been hard for you to fully acknowledge or own?

52:32and then you're going to have to start playing with bearing those thoughts and feelings while you work and learning to tolerate them enough to follow through on your commitments. You have to get more curious about them than you are turned off by them or scared of them. And then you have to see what it's like to be in a relationship with your avoidance. How you feel when you follow through on a commitment when you're bored. What new thoughts come up when you stay on top of your work even when you're bored. Whether you still feel depressed or unfocused when you're getting things done or whether getting things done reignites something in you.

53:05My experience is that it does, but you're going to have to discover that for yourself. Solid advice, Jordan. I totally agree. I do understand, though, that, you know, the depression can be caused by many things and it can operate in many different ways. So, you know, she just went through a huge loss. She was laid off from a job, from her dream career, and it's creating a bit of a crisis and she probably doesn't feel very motivated. There's an interesting connection between her and the boyfriend from the previous question. You know, just how do you move through these periods of adversity when something gets taken away from you or you don't get what you want.

53:34It's hard to stay connected to your excitement. It's hard to stay connected to your follow through. And I just, I feel for her and she might just be a little bit messy for a while until she can find her mojo again. And that is part of the process as well. But let's talk about this vocational therapy thing for a second, because I think that's really interesting. I'm quite interested in that. This is new for me too, I think. So let's clarify something. What we talked about with that other listener, the aspiring chaplain, when our expert asked if he might be looking for a form of vocational therapy, he meant that he might have been trying to work something out in his own life through this very difficult, very demanding work of ministering to soldiers.

54:10And he was saying that because that listener was struggling to manage some very intense stuff in his own life, anxiety and suicidal ideation, if I recall correctly. And he might have been getting the signal that this was not his path, or at least it was a question. What you're describing being called to interior design because you grew up in this chaotic house with parents who were hoarders. I think that's very different. I was going to say, I don't think they're in the same category. I don't think so either. She's calling interior design a trauma response, which is a very interesting term to use in this context.

54:39I do wonder if that's pathologizing it a bit too much. To me, these experiences are informing her calling. They give her calling meaning. When I read that part of her letter, especially that bit about how cleaning her parents' house led her to value interior space in a profound way. I was like, man, what an amazing thing to talk about in a job interview. What a compelling story to share with a client. I love understanding why people are drawn to their work. Same. I think that's a great sales pitch. I mean, certainly it's better than, I don't know, I just like decorations, which is kind of how I imagine most interior designers.

55:08It's like, well, why did you get involved in this? Oh, I just really like decorating people's homes and designing people's homes. And you're like, oh, okay. Or I've always been good at it. My friend did it and it looked interesting. Her story is just so much more compelling somehow. Yeah, because if you hired her, she would have such a connection to the work. And she I would feel like, oh, my God, you're going to make my home livable, navigable, like better. Not just somebody has a good eye for what couch is going to fit in my living room. Right. Or whatever. So there might be something therapeutic to her about this work, but that doesn't mean that her motivations are wrong or confused or self-interested.

55:41To me, that's no different from somebody becoming a therapist because of their own traumas or somebody becoming a writer because of their own obsessions, Gabriel. So the difference between that being potentially problematic and that being beautiful is, I think, just the degree of awareness you have around it. Right. If you know it's there, if you're conscious about how it operates, then you can keep an eye on those motivations and make sure you're deploying them in the right way. And she's so aware of this origin story. I don't know. I'm not worried about it. It's interesting. The two questions she's asking are, how do I get out of this funk?

56:11You know, like, how do I overcome my indifference? But at the same time, how do I make sure that my genuine passion around this calling isn't wrong or corrupt in some way? Yeah, on one hand, she's going, I don't care enough. And on the other hand, she's like, but what if I care too much? Too much. Take it easy. Daddy chill. It's just occurring to me that maybe her skepticism about her motivations, which might border on a kind of low-grade paranoia that she's in this work for the wrong reasons or something. Maybe that itself is part of the depressive shutting down that we were just talking about.

56:41Yeah. I'm too passionate about this field. I'm too connected to this calling. Maybe given what happened at this last job, I need to modulate that by poking some holes in it. Oh, interesting. And one way to poke holes in it is to analyze it to death. And more specifically, what does she do with that analysis? Because she could use this understanding of her childhood to give beauty and meaning to her calling, or she can use it to diminish it and question her intentions. You know, a moment ago, you asked her which feelings her depressiness might be tamping down. I wonder if we just uncovered a couple more.

57:10One of them, this fear of being too passionate, maybe even too much in general, but also maybe some shame around growing up in a home with parents who are hoarders and then wanting to work that out in a very healthy and productive way through this incredibly cool calling of hers. But why she might feel the need to do that to sort of take the wind out of her sails when she's already struggling, that I'm not quite sure about. Yeah, me neither. But that's the question. I wonder if it's another form of avoidance. Like, well, I don't have to face all this stuff if my reasons for doing the job or suspect.

57:40Yeah, that could be. I also wonder if she might be pretty angry and frustrated about this avoidance thing. And you know, to be fair, maybe even a little bit angry at her old company, even though she is being very understanding about why they fired her. But instead of expressing that, she might be turning it against herself. Like, I'm angry at work, and I'm frustrated with my company. And I'm just angry about how hard certain tasks are for me. That becomes maybe there's something wrong with me. Maybe there's something wrong with my reasons for wanting to do this work. That's also often how depression operates.

58:13It takes the unpleasant thing and then it turns it inward because it's easier for some of us to deal with it there. And that's, I think, when you get into this tearing yourself down thing. Yeah, I can see that. It would explain several different parts of her overall response. So interesting. So I hope that gives you some new angles here. The great news is I have zero doubt you're in the right field. The intense news is that means you You can't just chalk this avoidance up to not caring about your work. But that tells me that the key you're looking for is in the way you relate to yourself, the way you relate to other people, what your work, maybe even responsibility in general, what that's bringing up for you, which is also great news.

58:49So start there. Talk this out with people. Dig deep. Keep putting yourself in situations where you have to follow through and lean into this avoidance. And keep sharing your story along the way. I think it's a very special one. And good luck. Go back and check out Javier Leyva on Romance Scammers if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our 6-Minute Networking course. It's 100 % free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy.

59:16You can find it on the Thinkific platform at 6minutenetworking.com. No shenanigans. I don't need payment or credit card, anything like that. I just wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. The drills are very bingeable and easy. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. 6minutenetworking.com. Show notes and transcripts on the website. advertisers, deals, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi.

59:46This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I am a lawyer, but I am not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing things that you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

1:00:16What's it like to earn the trust of a ruthless drug cartel, knowing the whole time you're going to bring them down? Robert Mazur went undercover as a money launderer inside Pablo Escobar's operation, building fake businesses, fake friendships, and even staging a fake wedding, all to stay alive. In my view, I felt as though that my background tended to give me an opportunity to be able to more convincingly pose as a corrupt businessman, as a long-term undercover agent. Information became my heroine. I had to get the next big piece of information, and the risk had to be higher than the last risk, or I wasn't accomplishing my mission.

1:00:53There was a half-million-dollar contract on my life. You got to take that serious. That I came within three minutes of being murdered. There's some people who aren't very happy with me. The bad guy's smarter than you. Don't ever forget that. It's amazing to think that the people who were in charge of the Honduran government operated clandestine cocaine labs in Colombia and Honduras, provided a gateway for hundreds of tons of cocaine to the U.S. and Canada, put millions of dollars in political figures, killed hundreds of people involved in human rights defenders, environmental defenders, competing traffickers.

1:01:34They conspired with corrupt senior military and law enforcement leaders. They sold military-grade weapons to the cartels. And they provided military escorts for caravans of drugs. And this was going on just under the nose of all of us. And has been, and continues to, and will continue to. It's not going to stop. To hear more about the high-stakes world of undercover ops and the razor-thin line between playing the part and becoming the role, check out episode 987 with Robert Mazur.