1203: Veganism | Skeptical Sunday

25:22keeping mammals in constant lactation for mozzarella sticks. I don't think there's a good reason. And those got milk ads, they kind of come across to me as less of a question and more of a threat. But the dairy industry is powerful and it gets its udders in us at a really young age. That's true. It is a little chilling. It's kind of dystopian chilling. Got milk is what the villain says right before the laser beam fires in your indie movie. So veganism is less diet and more like a moral operating system. Yeah, I mean, it can be just about food, but for many vegans, it's about the lifestyle. It's how you shop, dress, how you clean your house, how you moisturize and just basically show up in the world.

26:04It's not about being perfect. It's about being conscious. And yes, that might mean giving up ice cream. Yeah, by the way, milk is linked to prostate cancer. It's just not causal. But it's like, well, if you're drinking a lot of this stuff and make sure you're checking your PSA levels. I just want to be clear about that. this is one of those topics where it's really hard to say this causes that. And the links can be there or they can be not there. They could be there. And then, hey, the dairy industry who funded this study wants to say that they're not there. I don't know. It's confusing. I'm not going to give up my milk, but I'm definitely going to check my PSA levels at least once, maybe twice per year or maybe more because I drank a ton of milk.

26:43Anyway, yeah. So you're the monster. A life without ice cream sounds cruel and unusual. Is there a substitute? Don't tell me I got to eat like cashew ice cream. I mean, I don't think there's any substitute out there that's worth my time, but that vegan Ben and Jerry's will help ice cream cravings for some people. But store-bought vegan ice cream, it's just kind of a sugary, expensive lie. I mean, my advice, throw some peeled bananas and berries in the freezer and then throw them in the blender with a little water or plant-based milk. And that's a pretty good dessert. But expecting substitutes, that's a myth.

27:20Same for those vegan cheeses, vegan chickens. It's all just kind of over-processed disappointment. And sometimes you just have to give things up. For people who are upset about this, I want to say the paleo keto diet people have to do this too, right? The people who are doing the opposite of veganism, the carnivore diet people, it's like they can't have pizza because it has bread in it or whatever. So they're like, here's paleo pizza. And the crust is, I don't even know, whatever, animal skin. I have no clue. But it's like stop trying to make something that substitutes another thing that's bad for you.

27:56Just have a different thing or give up that thing. And that's harsh but fair. a lot of non-vegans, they don't want to contend with giving up anything. We got the food pyramid drilled into our heads in kindergarten, a little everything, including a lot of animal protein. Do you all have your own food pyramid? I mean, of course there is, but I don't think anybody, vegan or not, needs a visual chart to eat well and stay healthy. It should be simple. Eat whole foods, fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, some homemade trail mix if you're feeling crunchy. I mean, that's it. So basically don't eat like a raccoon in a gas station.

28:33The benefits, the benefits of eating whole foods even without veganism are pretty well documented. Yeah, exactly. I mean, the problem is corporations saw the profit loss from people ditching meat and they flooded the shelves with ultra processed vegan junk. They make eating well complicated so they can sell solutions. I mean, if I don't want to eat animals, why would I want to eat something shaped like a chicken wing. Yeah, that's true. My daughter likes those dinosaur shaped chicken nuggets and it's like they, you know, they're disgusting, but she doesn't want the regular shaped ones. I don't know why that reminded me of that.

29:10So not here's the problem. Not all of us can get a culinary Ph.D. in lentils like you have. I mean, that's totally fair. But nutrition should be a bigger part of our basic education in school. I agree. Yeah. And I get it. some people love that primal feeling of tearing flesh off bone. But I mean, even if you eat meat, you need to eat fruits, vegetables and healthy fats. It's the balance that matters. Yeah. You know, it's funny when I met Jen, if this is our first date, second date, I don't know, third date, whatever. I ate a chicken wing and I put it down on the plate and she's like, you're not done with that, are you?

29:49And I was like, yeah, I ate the chicken off of it. And And she proceeds to like gnaw all these little like bits of meat off the thing. And like, she's like, the cartilage is on there. She's like crunching it. And I was like, I don't know if I'm in love or totally disgusted. I have, we have to keep dating before I make a decision on that because I've never seen anything like this in my life. Wow. That's awesome. It was just straight caveman. I was like, oh my God. Thankfully, she didn't do this on one of our first dates. But later, I think we went to China. she ate a chicken foot like literally a chicken foot oh yeah i remember telling her i was like if you had done that within i don't know the first like four months of us dating we would not be together right now do i want to kiss that yeah yeah i mean here's the thing like as a guy who eats meat it shouldn't be a big deal but i'm trying to i think explain that the way vegans probably see meat eaters is the way a meat eater sees somebody gnawing on a chicken foot and they're just like, oh my God, I can't, no, I can't do that.

30:50Or those, um, when you put the live, I know it's popular in South Korea, you put those live, are they like small octopus or something that's like suction the inside of your mouth. So I had that, I had that in South Korea. Yeah. It's a live squid, I think, or octopus and they cut it and it's moving around on the plate and you put it in your mouth, you dip it in the sauce and you put it in your mouth and you have to swallow it quickly because it can get stuck in your throat and it does kill people because it get stuck in your windpipe. Because it's fighting for its life. Yeah, it's really, really, really extra gross.

31:21I think I put a video of it up on my Instagram. Oh, really? Where it's like moving in the chopsticks and you see me eat it. And I'm like, yeah, it's wild. Yeah, it's it's absolutely insane. And yeah, it's a certain amount of people die every single year eating that because they choke. And some people love it. But does loving something mean you should do it? No, not necessarily. Plus, if all you eat is meat, you quickly become deficient in fiber, vitamins, and certain minerals. And there's studies that show these meat-heavy diets are raising the risk of heart disease, high blood pressure, possibly cancers, and a variety of other health conditions.

32:02This doesn't happen with a balanced diet, vegan or not. I just can't stress how much the balance matters. And on the other side of that, an all-carrot diet, that'll turn your skin orange and cause all kinds of health problems. Ask Steve Jobs. Wait, so Steve Jobs only ate carrots? Like, billionaire Bugs Bunny? For a while, yeah. He only ate carrots. Wow. He turned orange, literally, ended up in the hospital. He believed in fruitarianism and long fasts would detox his body, but it caused him all kinds of problems. So extreme diets, vegan or otherwise, they're just terrible ideas. That brings us to the stereotype, though, that vegans are deficient in everything.

32:51Are they just slow rolling towards collapse or what? I mean, only if you're doing it wrong, like your buddy eating all those Skittles. You can't live on french fries and vegan mayo. A healthy vegan diet takes thought, like any diet. Right. I do see vegans get treated like it's some sort of death sentence and get made fun of by meatheads like me. Yeah, and it's frustrating because non-vegans have health problems too. Well, yeah. But vegans have to defend their diet to people who are eating McDonald's and frozen meatloaf and hormone-laced meat injected with carbon monoxide to keep it looking red.

33:29I'm like, I've been ridiculed for decades for eating from my garden by family, by friends, and most of them are now obese, diabetic or dead. Society just isn't built for vegans. But any optimal diet starts with fresh produce and healthy fats. This maintains healthy gut flora, which is crucial to avoiding inflammatory disorders, which is the root of a lot of our health issues. Yeah. OK, but there are problems with a vegan diet. Let's start with B12, vitamin B12. That's a big one, right? Yeah, it's huge. B12 is critical for blood and brain function. To get the necessary amount of B12 from nature, you'd have to eat so much algae and seaweed, it would be unpleasant.

34:14Yeah. And low B12 is super problematic and can cause things like anemia. It's primarily found in animal products. So if you're vegan, take a B12 supplement, no exceptions. Nutritional yeast and fortified foods help, but bottom line, take that B12 pill. So if you don't eat meat, you kind of have to fake it with a pill, at least with that. It just kind of sounds like an argument that we are designed to eat meat. It's just like meat eaters need to take fiber. You know, everybody's supplementing something. That's true. And it's like saying, hey, we're not designed to fly. Don't get on that plane. You know, we've made it to the top of the food chain.

34:52and louis ck points out hilariously that we don't fully appreciate that i don't know if we fully appreciate the fact that we got out of the food chain for every other living thing life ends by being eaten every life ends like this

35:15animals just they go let's do this together man you chase the parents away i'm gonna eat the kid and you circle back. That's why they do it like that. And I'm eating babies. This is bullshit. Louis C.K. tearing it up as usual. Okay, but another red flag is the frequent vegan iron deficiency argument. Another supplement? To go vegan, do you have to take 50 pills a day? No. B12 is the only tricky one. I mean, that said, iron is essential for the production of red blood cells. And plant-based iron is absorbed differently than iron from animals. The trick is to pair plant iron with vitamin C. So broccoli plus lemon juice, that's a vegan's best friend.

36:00Add beans, nuts, figs, dark greens, and you're good with the iron and you have a little tasty meal. I have to supplement iron, which is weird because I eat a ton of meat. It just doesn't make any sense. But here we are. And the iron comes with vitamin C in the pill because of absorption or something along those lines. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's just it's your genetics. Like you need that. Yeah. The blood work was pretty obvious. And it was like, you're low on ferritin. And I was like, I thought men usually had too much iron. They're like, are you vegan? I was like, absolutely not. And they're like, all right, well, your body's using a ton of iron somehow.

36:34The fiber thing was surprising. I did a recommendation of the week a couple of months ago to eat chia seed pudding because I was getting I did the math. I log everything I eat. I was getting like, I don't know, 10 grams of fiber per day or something on a lot of days, which is not enough. It's like a third of what you need. And then I started eating chia seed pudding, which gives me like all my days fiber in one sitting. Oh, that's great. It was great. Yeah. Chia seeds are like where it's at. And my cholesterol went down like 30%. What? Yeah. Now that's amazing. That's not going to happen to everybody.

37:07That was just my body was probably like, oh, we're trying to get rid of this cholesterol, bad cholesterol, whatever, triglyceride stuff. But we can't because this idiot's not eating enough fiber. And then as soon as I hit that lever, it was like, oh, good, we can dump this stuff. So now my cholesterol is crazy good. Our bodies are amazing. Bodies are amazing. But it just goes to show you that like, oh, fiber, what's the big deal? I'm pooping fine. It's like, well, that's not all it is. It's more than that, yeah. That's not all it is. Your body needs the soluble fiber, not just the insoluble fiber, et cetera, et cetera.

37:35It's true that women need more iron than men, right? Usually, I don't know about you, But usually that's the case. And that's because of our periods. When we lose blood, we lose iron and magnesium. And our bodies are amazing. And our cravings tell us what we are deficient in. So chocolate is high in iron and magnesium. And those monthly chocolate cravings women get, that's just your body asking for what you're losing. That's crazy. The uterus is like, hey, can I get some of those minerals over here? Yeah, I got some minerals for you. Anyway, so my body is screaming for a Whopper is actually saying, what, give me processed beans?

38:13Well, I mean, interpretation of those cravings is key. Yeah. So instead of a Whopper, have some collard greens with those beans because animal blood is so high in iron. There's a misconception that vegans don't get enough. But iron's not a problem for the vegan diet if you're supplementing it the right way, if you're eating the right things. You'll get the same exact answer about zinc. But, I mean, you just have to eat the real stuff. Not vegan hot dogs, not vegan Doritos, not Skittles. Eat legumes, nuts, and seeds. Okay, what about calcium? That's milk's whole sales pitch. That's another myth.

38:52Calcium and omega-3s are really easy to get from plants. But numerous studies show vegans just aren't getting enough calcium or vitamin D, which can lead to a higher risk of bone fractures. It doesn't mean vegans miss out on those things. They're just not eating enough of it. So calcium is needed to maintain our healthy bones and teeth. So vegans have to make sure they're eating tons of dark leafy greens, broccoli, cabbage, bok choy, tofu, soy milk. These are all great sources. If you're only buying those frozen vegan chicken tenders, you're missing out. If you live in the UK, though, by law, they fortify the flour.

39:34So your toast is basically a vitamin, which is kind of cool. Yeah. But the one thing to be mindful of is spinach. That actually blocks calcium absorption. So plan accordingly. Spinach is lying to us. Popeye, you fraud. Maybe the produce section should actually, this is not even a joke. Maybe the produce section should actually have nutrition labels too, or warning labels like this spinach will ghost your calcium. Because one, I had no idea. And two, if you think about it, natural stuff should also have a label, showing what's in it. I totally agree. Maybe it does. I mean, I never go shopping, but I don't think so.

40:09I don't think the protozoal has any such thing. No, I don't think so. That would be a great idea because I think it would really help people because spinach, it's kind of the Benedict Arnold of greens. You know, it looks healthy, but it's kind of betraying your bones and your body needs vitamin D to regulate calcium. So you have to eat those other greens and eat them in the sun to make sure that you're getting enough calcium and vitamin D and eating a ton of mushrooms helps. Mushrooms? So that's the plan? So my skeleton depends on the pizza topping that nobody besides me actually wants? Well, you'd have to eat a ton of them to get enough vitamin D3, but they definitely help.

40:52The only other supplement I take, aside from B12, is D3. So taking a vitamin D supplement, it's a healthy idea, vegan or not, especially in winter months or if you're just not an outdoorsy person because so many of us just don't get enough sun. Yeah, that's funny. When I was a kid, I used to house mushrooms. They were coated in ranch dressing. I don't know if that's exactly the same thing. It still counts. But yeah, great. Add that to the list of things I'm deficient in right underneath hope. Don't vegans need to eat fish to get omega-3s in their diet, too? I take a ton of omega-3 and I eat a ton of fish, and I'm still deficient in a bunch of stuff.

41:33Yeah, I mean, omega-3 fatty acids are important for a heart-healthy diet, and they're found in oily fish, but they're also found in nuts and seeds. There's evidence that shows plant sources of omega-3s don't reduce heart disease like those in oily fish. But if you're living a vegan lifestyle, chances are you don't smoke. You're probably more active. And that helps your heart health, too. Okay, but nuts and seeds aren't for everyone. A lot of allergies out there. Plus, you ever pay for pine nuts? I had to refinance my car. Oh, God. It's true. They're so expensive. Yeah, it's ridiculous. But if you're allergic, supplements or fortified foods work.

42:17You know, the real challenge isn't nutrition. It's navigating the marketing minefield of fake health food claims. That I can get behind. Even meat eaters have to admit that the amount of meat we now consume with an insane level of ease and convenience, vastly different from what even a generation ago, my parents never, they would be like, oh, Fridays, we get to eat meat or whatever in our house, right? because it was like the day that they splurged on dinner, so nobody would miss it. My understanding is that ancient man especially, maybe they ate meat once a week if there was a big hunt. And then for a lot of humanity, they'd never got it, right?

42:56Because they were poor or they got it rarely. Imagine explaining a drive-through double Baconator to a caveman. You'd be like, what? Why does the cheese glow? Right. I mean, I think that's a big misconception that our ancestors were just chomping on meat constantly. Surviving off of the mammoth. They ate plenty of fruits and veggies, you know, and we need that. We need fiber. We need less saturated fat. These are all good ideas for everyone. And what's complicating all of this is the food industry because they figured out vegans have wallets too. And they jumped in with all that ultra processed fake meat stuff, which is, by the way, loaded with sodium, I avoid beyond impossible.

43:41I honestly, sorry, impossible. I know you're trying to do a great thing, but I feel like crap if I eat that stuff and other brands like it that are popping up because the sodium level of those products, they're just out of control. And many people agree with me. Those fake meats are kind of gross. So I took a vegan cooking class and my new thing is bacon. It's like real bacon. Except for the look, the texture, and the taste. Maybe the store-bought kind, but I make my own, so it's not even real bacon. It's faux bacon. Focon. Focon disgusting. You can't tell the difference. And guess which one's the real?

44:16That one. That one. Still that one. Yeah, those plant-based meats, they're like salt licks. I gotta say, I always had a hunch those were gonna shake out really bad for us. Because it's highly processed stuff, right? I mean, that's just how it always ends up. And it's one of those like, hey, it's the Skittles are vegan of meat. Yeah. And it's like, what's better, the factory farming or sodium? I don't know. Right. It's just kind of like skip the meat thing. Don't try and like make something that sort of tastes like meat but isn't because you're going to have to process the crap out of something else.

44:51And real bacon is what makes bacon taste so good. So sorry, vegans. I mean, fine. But again, it's all about that balance. We're sort of lucky that in the Western world, we get to base what we eat on taste and carbs. Personally, for me, and I know this is blasphemous, the smell of bacon is nauseating. But that's in my head because food doesn't just affect our physical health. It impacts our mental health. Because you're depressed, you can't have a steak or a cheeseburger? I don't think that's why. I mean, maybe it's from getting roasted for ordering salads with dressing on the side. I don't know.

45:31So is vegan depression real or is that a conspiracy from big meat? Coincidentally, my nickname in high school. I still call you that. Yeah. I mean, it's a bit of both. You know, some studies link vegan diets to a higher rate of depression and anxiety. But the data, again, it's all over the place. There's funding bias. There's bad sample sizes. Plus, they lump in salad eaters with those Cap 'n Crunch vegans. Oh, Cap 'n Crunch is so good. I just bought some recently. It's vegan, I think. Yeah, but also, who cares? Fantastic. But now that I'm an adult, I have one handful, and I'm like, okay, enough of this candy-flavored bread.

46:11How did I eat a whole bowl of that and then reload? That's my question. How are we giving that stuff for breakfast? Also, how is that allowed? Exactly. So if I go, by the way, peanut butter Cap 'n Crunch, even better slash more disgusting. So if I go vegan and I feel sad, it might be the Oreos, not the almond milk. Yeah, exactly. I mean, depression knows no diet. I reviewed 18 studies comparing 150 ,000 meat eaters to 9 ,000 meat abstainers. 45 % showed worse mental health for the plant-based crowd. a few were inconclusive and then about half showed better outcomes for the plant-based there's just so many variables it's hard to know how much diet alone plays a role it's just it's really messy science yeah it's really that's got to be really hard to study i wonder if vegans over index for depression because they tend to be people who think about this stuff a lot more and maybe they're more sensitive or they're more empathetic which is not you know that's going to be tough in today's world.

47:16Meanwhile, the guy shotgunning corn dogs, not exactly journaling about climate change most of the time. I mean, it cuts both ways, but there are significantly less studies on the mental health of just meat eaters. You know, you're not going to see a headline saying steak causes sadness. That would be bad for business. Yeah. I guess if you're broke and living with a mean roommate, a filet is not going to fix your serotonin. So chicken or egg, does food mess with the brain or does brain mess with food? I mean, it seems both. Extreme eating can spiral into a condition called orthorexia, which is an eating disorder caused with this unhealthy obsession with clean eating.

48:01This would describe what we said about Steve Jobs extremes. But it's any extreme diet that triggers problems, including veganism or meat only diets. Yeah, we had a Feedback Friday question come in. I don't know if we took this one because it was kind of like a simple go see a therapist answer or maybe it's pending, whatever. But it was a guy, a woman wrote in and said that she found a bowl in the bathroom and she kept moving the bowl and like putting it in the sink. And then one time she's like, are you eating in the bathroom to her boyfriend? And he got like really weird about it. and then she found the bowl again and again and again and he was like hiding the bowl and she's like okay what's the deal with the bowl and he had to admit that he was weighing his poop oh my god in a bowl right so he was like pooping in a bowl and then putting it in the toilet and then flushing it after weighing it and it's like why are you doing that just weigh yourself before and after you poop and he's like it's not as accurate and that turned out to be our opinion was that this is like an orthorexia issue right he's got like a crazy yeah diet and he like is so caught up in the numbers that being off by half an ounce wow is not acceptable to him yeah wow that but people go through that i will say the squatty potty company makes those toilet seats that weigh your poop for you i did not know that well now i have thanks a lot another thing i gotta go buy Geez.

49:28Wow. OK, so the extreme Joe Rogan diet of like elk, bacon and more elk, that would be considered an eating disorder, I guess. Definitely. Definitely. OK. A meat only diet is a one way trip to constipation, vitamin deficiencies, inflammation and organ stress. studies from Harvard Health, Stanford, Oxford, and many others show it can actually take 10 to 15 years off your life if you're going hard on red meat and you're skipping that fiber. Yeah, like I said, man, fiber was kind of an unsexy hero for me when it came to cholesterol. But we should make fiber sexy. Gut health, mood, immunity, all kept happy by fiber.

50:11And you only get it from plants. The carnivore diet might look alpha, but skip plants and your colon's basically left on its own. Some people skip meat. Some people skip carbs. You don't skip these ads. We'll be right back. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps the lights on around here. All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Now for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. All right, speaking of pains in my colon, let's talk about kids. You eliminated animal products pretty young, but can you really raise a kid vegan without them turning into like a calcium deficient goblin?

50:55Absolutely. If you plan right. It's really hard though. I just want to make that really clear. Vegan kids, teens, and pregnant women all have higher nutritional demands. So again, nailing that balance is crucial A vegan diet needs to be managed so carefully Right, if my kids don't have their daily quota of string cheese There's gonna be a problem And possibly a 911 call It seems like it might be kind of a high risk To put a kid on a vegan diet To say nothing of pets You know those people who are trying to make their dog vegan? I am really proud of my vegan lifestyle And I think it's cruel to do that to pets They're not built that way They're not thinking that way.

51:38I've had pets through the years. They are carnivores because that's what they want. You know, yeah, we could talk about that more. But I sort of think that's a full stop. I think that's like giving your animal orthorexia. I don't know. Yeah, you're sort of forcing a diet on an animal that's not going to adapt. Yeah, that's ethically questionable for a whole different reasons. But there are dozens of studies that show vegan and vegetarian kids grow up just fine, sometimes even healthier. But their diets just need to be planned really carefully, especially regarding B12 and calcium. Same with vegan pregnancies, because the nutrients in your body become your baby's building blocks.

52:20So if you skip one, there's risk. And that risk comes from doing it wrong. As always, it's important to look at who's funding the studies about this, though, because it's easy to find research that says both things. It seems like it would be stressful to have a vegan pregnancy. I mean, not at all, depending on who you are. Many women do it, and it can be totally healthy. The bigger issue is most doctors don't know about vegan nutrition, and that can lead to issues like low birth weight, poor fat reserves, which is important if you're breastfeeding, and other deficiencies. And this continues if a vegan mommy breastfeeds.

52:59So many vegan moms choose non-traditional births because traditional hospitals, they make it hard. Hospitals just aren't vegan friendly. But vegan pregnancies should be studied because there's actually data suggesting there's less postpartum depression among vegans. Are pediatricians educated in vegan nutrition to help kids at all? I mean, it seems very niche. Yeah, not really. And it's also kind of rare. It's not a really common thing. Although it's done, it's not that common. There was a recent study that compared like 150 vegetarians, 115 vegans, and I think it was 137 omnivore kids. The vegetarians and vegans ate more carbs.

53:44The omnivores ate more protein. But when it came to all other vitamins and minerals, there were no differences. And the researchers concluded there were no specific nutrient deficiencies in any of those groups. But this was just one study, and there's so many factors not accounted for. And it's worth noting, it is rare. It's rare to be born and raised a vegan, and we don't keep track of those statistics, and it's not. The pediatricians aren't educated for that lifestyle. It seems like such a huge gap in the medical community. So there's no difference in development based on what kids are eating.

54:23And I don't know, that's hard to believe. Yeah. That's tough. I did find a study that pointed to children born and raised vegan come out slightly shorter than omnivore kids. Aha! Just kidding. I know, but I don't know if that's such a flex because it's like, well, yeah, our GMO tomatoes are bigger than natural tomatoes. So I don't know why. It might be the hormones that the non-vegan kids are eating that are making them taller. So, I mean, that's the biggest difference I've come across, though, is the height. So the designs of all these studies, they're really easy to poke holes in. And of course, there's cases of malnourished vegans.

55:02But I see toddlers at McDonald's, too. So I mean, is anybody doing this right? I don't have kids. Gross. But if I did, I'd be fine raising them vegan at home. That said, if my hypothetical toddler wanted pizza and cake at a birthday party, I don't think that should be an issue. So you'd let your hypothetical kid eat pizza? What a hypocrite. Look at you. Look, as long as there's no allergies involved, everyone, even kids should try any food they want. And social development matters here, too. You know, food policing can traumatize kids. Yeah, that makes sense. Plus, it's pizza. Like, let's be real.

55:41I don't care what kind of vegan cheese wizardry you make. It sucks. I've been vegan for over 30 years. I've never found a good substitute for mammal-based cheese. Yeah, raising kids without animal products is safe. Okay, vegan pizza is gross. Yes, McDonald's every day is a bad idea. Bold take, fine. I mean, definitely. Do you remember Morgan Spurlock, the super-sized guy? I do. It's funny. I was just thinking about that earlier. He gained 25 pounds, right? He wrecked his liver. He got depressed. He lost his sex drive. all from one month of just eating McDonald's. He died at 53 years old from cancer.

56:21I mean, we can't say it was the McDonald's, but I don't think that could have helped. Maybe, but I've also read he started abusing alcohol at the age of 13 and continued that through his fast food experiment. I mean, if he's drinking like a bottle of vodka per day, is it the Big Macs though, Morgan? Was it really? You know, come on, man. Yeah. His partner, actually, she was not in my class, But she attended that same health program I did at Natural Gourmet. And I have heard lots of stories about that guy. But regardless of his checkered past, he provided a lot of evidence with how quick junk food, specifically McDonald's, can change our bodies for the worse.

57:03Yeah, fast food for sport is not a long-term health strategy. But hey, at least he was getting his protein, right? We haven't really mentioned it. And that's kind of one of the big things that people throw at vegans is where do you get your protein? I know, I don't think this is a secret, but producer Gabriel, who is a vegan, one of the issues he always has is not getting enough protein. And I think also he just, if you're willing to eat a larger volume of food, it's probably easier. But, you know, he eats like a normal person. When I go to his house and he makes these huge bowls of oatmeal and like protein stuff that's probably going to last him like two meals, I house the whole thing.

57:37And you're still hungry. No, no, I'm not. But well, maybe an hour later. But yeah, it's getting enough protein is not easy for vegans. It's just it can be tough. I don't know this protein controversy. It's asked constantly. But I think and Gabe, I hope you're listening. I think it can be a total non-issue. Protein panic, as far as at least personally for me, is a myth. I think it's silly. I mean, look around at nature. Elephants, horses, giraffes, rhinos. They're all giant jacked vegans. That's true. Plant based protein is everywhere. Don't they also spend most of the day eating, though? Eating.

58:19Yeah. I mean, that's it. Right. So getting enough protein as a vegan is fine. You just have to spend eight out of your 10 waking hours eating bamboo. Whatever. There's a great vegan meme that shows two separate images and shows like a burger and fries in one stomach. And okay, that's enough protein. And then the other stomach is like 10 times that amount of fruits and vegetables. You just have to eat so much more. Yeah. My friend was vegan. She came home, you know, those party trays, not the big ones, but the medium party tray of vegetables. I was like, what is that? She's like, this is my lunch.

58:53And I thought she was kidding. And I sat there with her for 90 minutes while she just nonstop ate every vegetable in this party tray. Yeah, I think that was her lunch. The problem, too, is we're so trained for three meals a day when I think especially if you're vegan, it's sort of eat little and often. You know, let's probably eat seven times a day for vegans. Wow. But beans and broccoli can make you swole, eh? Yeah. I mean, eat enough of them. Yes. You know, there's a long list of vegan bodybuilders, Olympians and NFL stars. Cam Newton, really famous football player, does not want his roast beef Boston fans to know, sorry to call you out, Cam, that he credits his veganism with his speed and recovery times.

59:36Because half an avocado, two grams of protein, a cup of lentils, 18 grams of protein, throw in tofu, tempeh, quinoa, nuts. It can start adding up really fast. So we're just bamboozled. The protein myth thing is a bunch of nonsense. I think so. And maybe food shamed. Like you think you're eating too much, but if you're not eating meat and dairy, it's OK to eat a bigger portion. You know, there's a lot of myths that are born from a kernel of truth. Plant proteins are less digestible than animal proteins, but that doesn't mean vegans don't absorb any protein. It's not a flaw. It's just how we're designed.

1:00:19So vegans need to eat more. The bonus is more fiber and better digestion. So eat more salad, you sweat less, you poop better, everybody wins. Okay, so meat eaters need to relax and stop acting like vegans are about to collapse mid-sentence. That would be really nice. But it does sell steak, right? Death can be manly. And it distracts from what they're depriving themselves of, like that fiber, antioxidants meat eaters lose out on. and not becoming obese by 30 and dying from heart disease at 57. Obesity, obviously a real problem in the Western world, especially Ozempic sales kind of prove that, I suppose.

1:01:00Oh my gosh, I know. We should do an episode on that because now that people have been on it so long, we're starting to see how horrible it is. But anyway, what's worse is the food industry pushing these ultra-processed options. You know, I bet General Mills isn't making vegan yogurts and plant based jerky because it's so considerate of our different eating habits. It's not about health. It's about their market share. So veganism is just what you eat or what you don't eat. Yeah, it's that lifestyle, too. Yeah. There's research showing vegans have a longer life expectancy because the lifestyle matters.

1:01:36Vegans, on average, they drink less, they smoke less, they're more active. I mean, still, these studies are messy because of who funds them. And a study funded by the dairy industry will have really different results than one funded by PETA. Right. Yeah, of course. They both have their entrenched interests slash are going to be extreme. Yeah, exactly. PETA is extreme and they are definitely militant. And sometimes I think their tactics backfire. I think they're coming from a good place. But if you watch the footage that they've accessed, you would probably get outraged, too. You know, we have ag-gag laws for a reason.

1:02:20And they're laws that make it illegal to film what's happening on farms and in slaughterhouses. That's crazy to me. Imagine having a law that says like, hey, you can't film anything that happens in school. You'd be like, what's happening in school that I'm not supposed to see? What the hell? I'd pull my kids out of that school immediately. I've heard about this. I know sometimes footage gets leaked or whistleblowers come out with horrific stories. And it's I think I've seen a documentary with a little bit of leaked slaughterhouse footage. And it's there are no words. I mean, it's just absolutely revolting.

1:02:50Yeah, it's horrible. I mean, you don't really see Instagram reels from the killing floor because the USDA actually recommends no windows in slaughterhouses for this reason. Oh, my gosh. And those ag-gag laws are anti-whistleblower and apply to just our animal agriculture. Like, it's literally a gag rule on what's happening on farms and in slaughterhouses. Moby recently teamed up with PETA. They made it's actually a great short about all of this, but we can put a link. But I will warn you, it's very depressing. So Moby loves. Yeah, he loves putting all this stuff. It's like, here's an even more depressing thing than I posted last time.

1:03:31He's a big vegan activist. He is. Yeah, I don't really want to see any of that, but it will be linked in the show notes. I mean, and then in the 90s, this all came from the Animal Liberation Front movement in the 90s, which scared the agricultural business. So laws were passed banning journalists from farms and slaughterhouses. What they wanted to do was bring the horrors of the meat and dairy industry to the public eye. And the government was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, you can't do that. We make a ton of money off of this animal suffering. I mean, we could do a whole episode on ag gag. But those PETA videos of free range chickens, what their reality is, they get censored online all the time because this truth is hard to swallow.

1:04:14And when you see those cage-free and free-range and things, what that actually is, definitionally, is probably not as comfortable and happy as you think. The ethics like this, they're a core reason for many vegans. So what's the case for animal ethics? Not that I disagree with this in principle, obviously, but I'm curious. Well, like we talked about earlier, you wouldn't let a dog suffer to save a dollar. So why do we tolerate this cow's suffering? You know, this is where the lecture part kind of starts and people bury their heads. But factory farming is unethical, no matter what your package says.

1:04:55Animals feel pain. They feel pleasure. They fear joy. And ethical vegans believe that they deserve moral consideration. Yeah, that's heavy. And sometimes veganism is cultural or religious as well, right? Of course. Hinduism, some Buddhism. There's other groups that discourage or prohibit animal consumption. And for many other vegans, it's also about the planet. Veganism uses less land, less water, and produces fewer greenhouse gases. That makes sense. But there's still some footprint, yeah? I mean, of course. But livestock farming leaves a much bigger one. It just has really good PR. There was a few years ago, I don't know if you remember, it was this whole campaign about almond trees need so much water.

1:05:39We did a show about almonds and how bad they were for the environment here in California. Yeah. I mean, I think that was just, I mean, my understanding is that was just a smear campaign from the dairy industry. Big Dairy was trying to kneecap almond milk because their sales were going down. I see. It takes way more water to farm cows than almond trees. I mean, look, any tree needs a lot of water. That's just the fact. But more water is needed for farming animals. Plus, you're skipping the toxic runoff. Right, yeah. Our argument wasn't, hey, they should put cows here. Our argument was, hey, they should not be growing almonds in a desert.

1:06:18This is a terrible, terrible idea. Yeah. It was like doing all this stuff to the aquifer. This is one of those things where it's like dairy can be really bad for the environment and almonds probably shouldn't grow in the desert. I don't know. Right. I'll have to revisit that episode. Farming anything is... Yeah, in the desert with a ton of water. Remember, we did bananas. That was really bad. Yes, exactly. So, OK, almond farming does produce less water pollution. I did not know that, but that makes sense. Yeah. I mean, big time because animal waste contaminates groundwater and rivers. So if you shift to just plants, you cut that drastically.

1:06:53You still have to grow tons of soy for vegans, though, right? Oh, you do. I mean, it's probably less than you think. A shift toward veganism, it would actually reduce the demand for crops like soy, which are often grown on deforested lands. So that's another bonus. But most soy is grown to feed livestock, not people. Like raising livestock demands much more water. And there's countless studies about this that show meat production consumes far more water than plant based food production. So cut out the animals. You cut out a lot of the soy fields. I'm not saying there's no bad environmental outcomes, but it's just a lot less.

1:07:33I had not thought about the fact that a lot of that soy was grown, not for people, but for animals. That had not occurred to me. People really defend their diets, man. It seems impossible to live a completely animal-free life. Yeah, I mean, look, vegans take medicines that have been tested on animals because, well, life's complicated. And that's just how scientific research works to save lives sometimes. Of course, I'm going to take that medicine if I need to. but shampoo that's tested on animals, that seems like an unnecessary evil to me. I mean, I might buy a chapstick that contains an animal product over one that's petroleum-based because you start asking yourself, what's more important here, animal welfare or the environment?

1:08:19It starts to become somewhat of a Sophie's Choice when you get out of just thinking about your veggie burger. Some people won't ever choose a veggie burger. I mean, people love eating meat. There are some people love eating meat. It's just different people are wired for different diets. And that's OK. You know, research can't perfectly isolate veganism's effects, but there is plenty of evidence that it's better in a lot of ways. at the very least, you know, be mindful of what you're eating. Maybe be vegan once a day or you don't have to have meat every meal. I just want the guy that's eating cheesic, crusted hot dog casserole who can't make it up a flight of steps without wheezing to stop lecturing vegans.

1:09:07Give vegans a break. Maybe skip some flesh every now and then. Dang, shots fired. Who's a militant vegan now. Sorry. I'm not saying give up meat. I'm not. I'm just saying shop smart. I always like to tell people stick to the perimeter of the grocery store. That's where the fresh fruits, vegetables, and yes, fresh fish and meats are. And they are better than anything you're going to buy down an aisle. That's just the facts. Yeah, I don't think I'm ready to give up the meats. Not yet. But no matter what your diet, I think we should all be thinking more about what we're putting in our bodies and the cost of the environment and to our little furry or not so little furry friends as well.

1:09:45Thanks, Jessica. You're welcome. Thanks, everyone, for listening. Topic suggestions for future episodes of Skeptical Sunday to Jordan at Jordan Harbinger dot com. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show all at Jordan Harbinger dot com slash deals. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find Jessica on her sub stacks. That's multiple sub stacks between the lines and where shadows linger. We'll link to that in the show notes as well. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Tata Sidlowskis, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:10:19Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Of course, we try to get these episodes as right as we can. Not everything is gospel, even if it is fact-checked. So consult a professional before applying anything you hear on the show, especially if it's about your health and well-being. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use a good dose of the skepticism and knowledge that we doled out today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time.

1:10:49What happens when you speak out against Vladimir Putin and the KGB starts showing up in your life outside of Russia? Konstantin Samoylov didn't just flee his homeland to avoid conscription. He's now exposing the regime from abroad with a target on his back. I was growing up on the impression that the USA was the cradle of all evil in the world, okay was bad and then the world started opening up and i understood that the commies were lying imagine for 70 years you're told that nothing good for people in the west it's darkness there none in russia thought that we could invade ukraine and then i was absolutely caught off guard that it's unbelievable the russian state didn't care about what was being said about it on the outside.

1:11:35All they cared was on the inside. But now the focus has shifted. I'm telling the truth about Russia, how things are. And my YouTube channel started growing. The numbers exploded because everyone wanted to be a part of a community, a support group. And I think that I'm becoming a bigger and bigger danger to them. So they're trying to neutralize me one way or another. Knowing that I am on the radar is one thing, but when you see actually an agent in real life, that's a different ballgame. I'm not stopping. I keep on talking because I was silent for 15 years. I was looking at my country going down to hell, and I wasn't doing anything about it.

1:12:20So there's no way they're going to shut me up. Even if I put myself into more danger, I think that's more important right now to tell the truth of what's really happening in Russia. If not me, then who? To hear more about life under dictatorship, the myths of Russian strength, and what it really costs to tell the truth, check out episode 1021 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.