1255: Abbie Maroño | Mastering Persuasion with Social Engineering

25:52You're wrong. But what happens when we have been corrected is it creates embarrassment and it creates often shame. I mean, that's why I'm doing it to you in the first place on the internet. And it feels good, the one doing it. That's right. But the one receiving it doesn't feel good. So do I now want to build a relationship with you? Not really. That's why if you want to influence someone long term, trying to suppress that ego when you really want to correct. I use a technique called pants yourself. And pants yourself means show your vulnerability. instead of when someone has said something wrong and you really want to correct them or maybe someone's being a little bit more aggressive and you want to point something out actually pantsing yourself and say why don't we take a break here because I'm struggling to provide you the services that you need or to communicate in the way that I think will be effective so let me take a step back and that's instead of saying you're wrong I'm right or you're being too aggressive or you're the problem here saying actually I might be the problem here I'm not able to completely engage the way you need one phrase I love is it appears I'm not able to provide you the support or the service that you need right now I would like to be able to support you better so let's take a five minute breather so I can step back and have a think about how I can support you better instead of you are being rude and I want to leave this interaction because that's what we're thinking and when you do that it makes it really difficult for them to now come back with aggression when you have pantsed yourself like that and when you instead of letting that ego go you're wrong it's the wrong there kind of attitude taking that step back to breathe pantsing yourself when they come back usually they step down a little bit and it makes it much easier to build that relationship and now if you're in a negotiation or you're in a meeting it makes it much easier to meet back on common ground because you haven't created those negative emotions in that person if someone has created embarrassment we don't want to collaborate with them because now we feel that our ego has been attacked and that is one thing if someone attacks our ego we just want to keep attacking theirs we do not want to build that relationship so it is a hard thing to do when And that ego is saying, oh, just correct them or just reflect it back just to breathe and pants ourself instead.

28:21But it is very effective for long term influence. We're talking about the difference between influence and manipulation. And trust me, you've dated both while you reevaluate your life choices. Here's a word from our sponsors. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Function. I use Function because data is everything. You can feel great and assume you're healthy, but without real numbers, you're basically flying blind. Function is the only health platform that gives me access to data most people never see and the insights to actually act on it. You get over 160 plus lab markers every year.

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31:25You can find the course free of charge and free of any shenanigans at 6minutenetworking.com. Now, Dr. Abby Maronio. I find myself doing that a lot because I'm good at arguing, right? So I'll be like really into it. And I'm like, I'm winning this. And then I'm like, wait, I'm winning the battle and losing the war, right? And so I'll have to back up and go, I'll maybe make a point and then go, you know what? All that aside, though, I think it's admirable that you care so much about this. And like, I got to admit that I got wrapped up in being right about this. And none of what I said matters. And I remember, this is recent.

31:59This guy wrote back, wow, this took a wholesome turn. and I was like, yeah, yeah, because otherwise what am I doing? I'm arguing with somebody who I'm trying to get something from on Reddit. I mean, none of it makes any sense. And it's just like, okay, you basically have to get sight of your goal once again, which is like, yes, this person's business policy is stupid. And yes, I can be like, I'm going to tell my podcast audience not to buy from you. Or I can be like, I'm actually trying to help you. Here's how I'm doing it. I'm just doing it the wrong way. I went about it the wrong way. What do you think is the best way to do this?

32:27And they're like, oh, you just wanted me to help you with this thing that you bought? God, I didn't even understand that. Sure. Here's my whole like PDF on how this works. And it was just like, why the hell were we arguing about the finer points of this other thing that had nothing to do with either of our goals? Because we were two dudes that needed to just put them on the table and get them measured and then go on with our lives. So you pants yourself. Yeah. Unfortunately, that works exactly with the other analogy. You should add that to your next edition of the book. Yeah. You just throw that in there.

32:55I would possibly think about it. Possibly think about it. Yes, you should possibly think about that. Depends what your publisher, run it by the editor, see what they think. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not sure Matt Holt would love it, but you know, you never know. Exactly. Penguin Random House doesn't love dick metaphors in the books, but. No. And they are my distributor. So. I mean, look, they did publish The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*** by my friend Mark Manson, and that was on the cover. Yes. I'm just saying. Yeah. So maybe one dick metaphor. Well, just one. Maybe one dick metaphor per book. So I'd love to talk about the way that dark hat con men use things like selectivity and exclusiveness to gain trust and then give a white hat example of that, because in the book you give Bernie Madoff as a good example of selectivity and exclusiveness.

33:40And we can use things like this without robbing people of their life savings and investments. Yep. So often when we say you have access to this, but not everybody else, only you, and for this really specific reason, you have access, it makes it feel scarce. And we know from Cialdini and years and years and years of research that as soon as something is scarce, and not everybody has access to it, we want it so much more because it's, if we have it, that makes us have some kind of advantage of other people. And this is also why sales work so well. This sale is only on for 24 hours. If I don't do it now, I won't get it.

34:25So it becomes a scarce resource. When you are trying to build a relationship with someone or say I'm offering access to this investment, if I say, look, I don't really give this opportunity to many people, but because you and I have a mutual friend, I'll give this opportunity to you and what this does is we often trust via our network so when we trust someone and that someone else trusts another person we can kind of utilize the trust for our friend to ourself you don't know me but because this other person has vouched for me now you feel this sense of familiarity you feel a sense of trust so now when I say look because of our mutual friend, I'm going to give you access to this really exclusive thing.

35:10It now feels like, okay, well, this is a really trustworthy thing for those two reasons. One, I really want it because it's scarce and because I trust this person, therefore I trust you. And actually I saw a friend of mine do this on Instagram this morning. They posted on their private story, this big investment opportunity that they have. And they posted a second private story. So it's friends only and saying, I am opening up three slots to this investment, but only to my close friends because it's such a good deal. I can't open this to everybody else. So now it's exclusive and how it's on the private friends list.

35:48Sure. So people use that and then often their intention is extremely negative. This is a play on trustworthiness, right? Because the main factor for why we do something is because we trust it. If I'm going to invest in something and I'm going to invest a lot of money, the main factor is trust. I need to trust either the person or I need to trust the credibility of the thing. What social engineers are really, really good at is the perception of trust. And this is why scarcity and time restrictions are so effective because when we're emotional, our emotional centers override our prefrontal cortex.

36:29And prefrontal cortex where critical thinking happens, that's where I go, oh, is this a good idea? Oh, is everything really correct? And that's where we notice, oh, that doesn't seem quite right. When we're emotional, those processes often get overridden. That's why when we're in our emotions, we write that angry email without thinking about the consequences. So when our emotions are engaged, we're more likely to act impulsively. Now, that is really quick. So trust has two sides, just like two sides of a coin. We have the perception of being trustworthy, which is the non-verbals, how do I appear, that really quick, do they look like they're trustworthy?

37:13Now, that's the perception, that's the first side. We forget that trust has two sides. We have perception, which is opening the door. And then we have being trustworthy, which is staying in the room. Social engineers know that if they can get you to act quickly, they just need to appear trustworthy. They don't need to be it. Because if it's a long-term deal, if it's something that goes over time, it's very difficult for them to stay in that room because there are often cues that this is false, that they're not really trustworthy. So they use tactics to get you to act very quickly. They're very composed.

37:53They use the right kind of language. they use great non-verbals to build connection they have that whole image of this is legitimate so you act really quickly and it's 12 hours and then it's gone okay I haven't had time to actually confirm this is a trustworthy person but I'm going to do it because it looks like it so that's what social engineers are so good at which is why when it comes to protecting yourself obviously long cons are very very difficult to test but often these tactics of when someone asks you to do something very quickly you have to remind yourself trust has two sides but we often feel like this person's trustworthy but we have to remind ourself i couldn't possibly know that because i haven't had enough time with them to actually confirm if they are trustworthy because the only factor that confirms that is consistency of behavior over time.

38:49And if you act quickly, you couldn't possibly have confirmed that. That's right. So when I used to sell training in my old company, I had this show or a version of this show. And so when people would call in, they would be like, oh, I feel like I've known you for years because I've listened to a thousand hours of your voice or whatever, 700 hours. And that was really helpful. And then also it was a really expensive program. I think, you know, our cheapest was like 6 ,000 or most expensive was like 9 ,000. They usually didn't buy on the first phone call. Some people did. But instead of act now, I'll give you$500 off.

39:20I was like, when they would be like, hey, I need some time to think about it. I would say something like, oh, yeah, no, I don't expect you to buy on this phone call, man. Take all the time you need. I would call other companies that offer something similar. Here's what I would ask them. And sometimes I go, no, if I buy this, I'm only buying it from you because I really I like what you put out. Well, all the free stuff on the podcast. Or they would say, oh yeah, I was going to call a competitor. Actually, what were those questions? And I'm like, here, I'll send you a PDF of what you should ask them.

39:44And of course those competitors, they were terrible at this. They'd call the competitor and they'd go, hey, I was calling Jordan Harbinger. And they go, oh, that guy, that guy's such a loser. Right. And then be like, okay, well, I really like him. But anyway, I was wondering, do you provide accommodation if I do your program? No, you just need to get a hotel in the city. Okay. Do you cover that? No. Anyway, do you want to buy now? If you do, I'll give you 500 bucks off? And they're like, no. And they're like, look, man, last chance tomorrow, the price goes up. And they're like, okay, bye. And then they would call me back a couple of weeks later and be like, yeah, I did call those guys.

40:18How did it go? Yeah, not buying from them. Or they would tell me specifically that because that's how I got that exact example. And I was like, wow, these guys don't know what they're doing. What's funny is they're trying to use scarcity on somebody when really they have the scarcity mindset themselves, right? Like if this lead gets off the phone, they're never going to convert. So I've got to do whatever I can, bull crap, like fake time constraint, discounting. Hey, if you go with them, that guy's a loser, like trying to just shame or whatever the person. And I'm like, if you had the mindset that you're the only, you're the best option and that these people are smart enough to figure that out and just need a little nudge, you would be making millions of dollars a year.

41:01But instead you view people as like dumb drones who as soon as they hung up the phone are going to get distracted and call somebody else or do something else. It's a really common mistake I see that instead of focusing on it's not me versus you to the competitors, it's we all really have the same goal. And it's just focusing on what you do well. When people aren't as confident that they do things well. Yeah. A great tactic is everybody else is really terrible. And I remember I was coaching this student about a year ago and he had developed an app and he was looking to get investment. And it was the first time he'd ever asked for investment.

41:42So he had run his debt cards by me. So these are the things that he's using to pitch why his app is so different. And the mistakes he made were the same mistakes that I see so often in people in negotiations or even in interviews, especially trying to get investment money of, well, here is all the competition and this is why they are terrible. This is everything they're doing wrong. These are all the bad things and this is why I'm the best. And I said, that is a really typical approach to take, but it's the wrong approach because it doesn't make you appear trustworthy. And we know from the literature that as soon as someone else tries to discredit another person or if someone uses really aggressive language instantly they become less trustworthy and then by association the information they're presenting is also less trusted so it's not the most effective approach the most effective approach is to say these are the competitors this is what they do great these people are great at doing this the thing they do lack though is this.

42:51And this is where I come in. And that is a much more effective approach. Yeah, it was incredible how many competitors would say something negative. Guys I knew. And they'd be like, don't take it personally, man. It's all just part of the game. And I'm like, I don't take it personally. I just think you're doing it wrong. And I have the receipts to prove that because I'm making way more money than you are. And there's a reason for that, right? Like, if it's just business, here's my business. Here's your business. Maybe you should take some of my advice and stop being a dickhead. I mean, it worked out in my favor because I just I remember people going, that's pretty expensive.

43:21I could get, you know, I'm going to call that guy. And I'm like, OK, when you call that guy, ask him these three things or these five things. And then they would call me back like, wow, OK, they failed all five of those tests. I'm like, what else did you ask? And of course, they didn't really have anything else to ask. They just wanted a better pitch, which they didn't get. And then when they asked their questions and they got the wrong answers to each of those questions, it was just a no brainer. And it makes it great because you can it's hard to hack that. Yes, you could probably trick your competitors into doing something bad, but it's actually easy to provide a better product and or service and then point out the flaws or where your competitors are lacking and then have people go find that out for themselves.

43:59Like I can say they don't offer accommodation. They don't offer post-program tutelage or whatever. They don't offer. I'm like, no, no, no. I want you to go there and for them to tell you to your face that they don't offer any of the things that I just told you we give you. I want them to tell you. because otherwise you have to trust me and I have to be right about their product and service. Go straight to them and let them tell you why they are inferior to what we do and what we offer. And that's the difference between taking the long road and the short road. If you want to get what you want and you think, okay, I'm going to get it and anyone that gets in my way, I'm just going to get them out my way.

44:34And if I need to say that this is my information when it's someone else's, I'm going to do that because I'm going to get what I want at the expense of other people. and often those people they're not as good at what they do because they're not as confident in their ability they have to discredit other people or they're using other people's stuff and I had a great example of this with a speaker she was in the same kind of speaker circle as me but whereas I produce my own material and I do my own research I create my own frameworks and she on the other hand listens to lots of other speakers including myself and will take their information and I say repackage it, but often just copy paste it to her own.

45:16Wow. That's bold. It is. And often because she's great at anybody else that gets in my way, no, this is mine. She has been getting a lot of really big speeches and really big opportunities. So she took the short road and often she's very, very good to it. Oh, this is what you want to hear. This is what I'm going to give you. The long road is the honest road of no, actually that wasn't mine. That was his like me and Joe Navarro he we will often send each other work if someone has come to me they want to interview me for this and I'm like actually I think Joe is better suited go to him and he does it to me I lose opportunities sending them his way he loses opportunities sending them my way but it's the right thing to do and we take the long road and now we end up getting more because often we share things so with the work that I do I'll never tell you what you want to here, I'll tell you what you need to hit.

46:07So I didn't get as many opportunities. My progress was much slower. And you think, gosh, if I just manipulated or if I did this, I'd get this. Right. The thing with taking the short road, though, is you leave reputation behind. And when you leave people feeling like you have done something against them or you have been unjust or you have been unfair, they don't want to help you. When you leave people feeling like you were fair, and cooperative when they get opportunities to help you often they do so you then get opportunities that you wouldn't have otherwise you may not have gotten that initial win and you see these people using the negative tactics but reputation comes back to you and then if you kind of manipulated your way there you're not necessarily as good so you may get the opportunity but you don't get called back you don't get invited back and when you take that short road the wins you get you might get them but that person has taken the long road eventually they overtake you so I think it's always better to take that long road because you leave people feeling good you leave people wanting to help you rather than wanting to tear you down as soon as you leave people feeling like you have hurt them or done something against them people are very dangerous if you leave people hurt you never know when they're going to try and hurt you back.

47:31It's always better to just try and do the right thing and try and do it honestly. And if it isn't your work or it's like if I don't provide that service, I don't pretend I provide that service. So if pro-social engineering skills like we're discussing are so effective, why do criminals and con men use the negative manipulative route? Because it's faster? Is that the only reason? Because it's faster and because they don't care about building a relationship. So if I'm just focused on getting what I want, those short-term tactics, they work beautifully. Because if I want to build genuine connection, I have to invest a lot of time.

48:09Building rapport is hard because I actually have to be trustworthy. It's actually, I don't have to just pretend I'm organized. I have to be organized to get the job. I don't have to pretend I have your best interest. I actually have to try and figure out what is it that you need and how can I provide you value? It takes time. It takes investment. It's much harder to do. And I may not get as big a wins as quickly. If I just care about getting the thing, I'm going to use the negative ones. I may get more money really, really quickly. I don't care about that lasting relationship. The thing is, though, if you look at this over time, you still get better results over time, even if it's a little bit harder.

48:51So I always thought about this, right? When I was a kid, I was always into like some shit, basically. Like I was like, oh, I can generate credit card numbers and they don't, you have the internet so they can, I can put it in and it passes the checksum. And then when they reconcile on Friday, I'm long gone with the pizza, whatever it is, right? I used to do that. And then I was like, yeah, there's risk here and I'm making people feel bad and that sucks. But also like it, wouldn't it just be better if I made a bunch of money? I could buy pizza, right? And so that was like kind of my thought process.

49:20And now that I'm older, I'm glad because I don't want to go to federal prison. But also, it's just easier to build a real business, even if it takes longer. And that's what I kind of never understood about small-time con men and whatnot, because I'm like, man, it's actually easier. If you had put all this energy into making a real product or service, it might have taken you an extra 18 months to hit it. But you would have a viable business that you could have sold for$20 million instead instead of stealing$200 ,000 from a bunch of dumb ass kids on TikTok and then getting caught. And now you're going to like these people who do the PPP loans, right?

49:57They get the PPP loans and they buy a Lamborghini. And I'm like, dude, you are going to get caught. And then you are going to go to federal prison where they don't have parole because you wanted to flex on Instagram. What you could have done is continue to run the business that you already have and save a little bit of that money and then buy a rent a Lamborghini. And you would have you'd be in the exact same spot right now, except you wouldn't be going to jail. Right. And it's just like, I don't understand it. These people, they're not dumb. The PPP loan people are dumb. Don't get me wrong. But the people who run these scams, they're not dumb.

50:26They created a very involved scam to take over people's Facebook accounts and then sell them to other people online to spam people. And I'm like, what if you just ran a legitimate social media company? You'd make way more money and you wouldn't be working with a bunch of freaking thieves all the time. I never really got it. Do these people have an inability to think long term or are they? It's almost like a lack of confidence. Like I can't make a real business. I'm not smart enough. But what I can do is trick people. I can't think of the explanation is it eludes me because if you think long term and you map this out, you lose short term every single time doing something illegal or unethical.

51:04You You just, you do. Yep. So it's a really common psychological phenomena that if we get something now, the value feels greater than if we get it in the future. And this is something that we all have. So if you say to someone, do you want$150 in three months or do you want$100 next week? Most people are like, I want$100 next week because the value feels higher. And when we think about having to wait for something, often there is that fear of not getting it. And it's also very impulsive. The value of things, the sooner we get them, it feels higher. But this is stupid people thinking, or am I the idiot?

51:42Feel free to tell me if I'm the idiot, because what you're basically explaining to me in terms that are much better than what I would have put, this is basically payday loans. Hey, man, do you want your paycheck two weeks early? Yeah, great. It's going to cost you 25 % of your check. Well, that sounds like a problem for future Jordan. I don't envy that guy. And it is a really common thing. And that's why loan sharks are so effective because they're like, you know what? People think, oh, well, in the future, things will be better. And it creates this kind of buffer. I'll be rich next year. Exactly.

52:11And that's why the mindset is so important. Like to have this mindset of future thinking. Yeah. A lot of people are just so focused on the present right now. And actually, there's a lot of advice about being so present and not always being focused on the future, really focusing on the right now. and I don't really stand by that mindset. I think it's important to be present generally and every day but we should always be future focused because the mindset of, will this thing I'm doing right now take away from future me is important and this mindset of, I really want this thing, that is what it is.

52:47So if I want you to do something and I use manipulation, I can get you to do it really, really quickly. Otherwise, I have to sacrifice my time and energy in building this relationship. I'm not willing to sacrifice my time, not willing to make that investment. I want it now. So it feels like I get more value doing it now because I'm putting less investment in. And it's that mindset of just the quick wins. It's kind of like a high that we chase. We do this thing, we get a really quick win, we go up. And now we haven't had a win, so we need another really quick win. We need that dopamine, the anticipation of getting another win really closely now we kind of chase that and it makes us also for someone who has got narcissistic or psychopathic tendencies not is a narcissist or psychopath they're kind of a different league but most of us do have these tendencies but people that really do have them and crave power when you get what you want at the expense of another person it can make you feel above them.

53:48So if you have this kind of anger at the world or this self righteousness of I deserve this, I'm entitled to this. When you get those things from someone else at their expense, it makes you feel really powerful. And think about people who maybe they go home to a relationship and they don't have a very good relationship. Maybe their wife tells them what to do, they don't feel like a man. So now they can go on their job and I can have this power over you. I can take your savings. Now I feel like this strong man. And then I come home and I don't feel like a man. So I need this outlet. And it's that seeking of power.

54:23It makes me feel like I'm better than you. Yeah, that's interesting. I remember I used to work and a long time ago, I used to work in Detroit and I used to work in the hood. And we'd meet all these young guys who are dealing drugs and in gangs and stuff like that. And sometimes it was they were on the other end of things. But sometimes we had to work with them to keep security in the area, whatever, ever, especially gangs. And I remember there's one guy I was like, you're smart. What are you doing? And he was selling drugs and in a gang. And he's like, this is how you survive in my area. And I'm like, dude, you're thinking so small.

54:51You know, you're thinking like, how am I going to get my next sale? How am I going to get another block of territory? This is your whole world. This is all bullshit. I drive here from a place called Birmingham. It's near Bloomfield. Have you heard of this? And he's like, that's where the rich people live. And I was like, I am not one of those people. But like, I know all those people. They're my neighbors. You're thinking so small, Like you're thinking of your literal neighborhood in Detroit. Get out of this BS place and do something with your life. And he's like, I can't. I remember talking with this guy for a long period of time because I'm just standing around waiting for people to start throwing full beer cans at two o 'clock in the morning at this club.

55:22And he's there selling drugs to people in this club. I remember after a while, he went to jail and he came out and then he's right back to it. And I was like, you realize eventually you're just going to get killed, right? And he's like, well, that's kind of how it works or I'll go to jail. And I was like, so what is your plan? It was all short-term thinking. And I felt bad for him because everyone around him was all short-term thinking. And I was just like, man, you would be better off bagging groceries at Target long-term because you won't be dead and you would eventually be able to do something with yourself because you're not an idiot.

55:53I don't even understand how this happened, but he ended up, he went to jail again, of course, but he ended up going back to school, which he had dropped out of high school. He got his GED, I think maybe in prison or possibly afterwards. and he ended up doing some kind of not quite engineering, but like something adjacent to that. And I'm like, it's almost like a miracle, right? So he eventually, it's not like some people can't think long term. They've just been conditioned not to by whatever environment that they're in. Have you thought about this at all? It's also when we're in these situations where it feels like everything is so chaotic, we get stuck in survival mode.

56:32And his situation, it sounds like he's just trying to survive. And it's a really sad thing. I do a lot of volunteering with the Innocent Lives Foundation. So we see a lot of children who have gone through really horrible circumstances and people who have gone through trauma, they're stuck in survival mode. So every single day, they don't think about the future. It's just about getting through that day. And if you're just thinking about, I need to survive, I need to survive, I need to survive, you don't think about, well if I do this tactic it may come back to bite me in a month in a year because you're just thinking about I need to get through this I need to get through this interaction I need to get through this day I need to survive so we get stuck in that loop of future us we'll regret what we're doing but we don't care about future us because right now I just need to survive we get in this survival loop that's why shifting the mindset of accountability we all have accountability and sometimes our situations feel like I have no other escape but we do there are often other options and routes we can take but it's just feeling like we don't have any other options and this is the victim mentality too I see it with a lot of people that have you know not in the situation that the young man you described but these are people that have education or have access to education and they might have access to parents that have money or just they have a generally okay situation but I can't do it because of this I remember when I was in my undergrad degree there was an individual and she was saying about oh you know my friend she doesn't get very good grades on her essays and she's always really late and I was like you need to make sure you hand things in on time and she was oh yeah yeah but she's dyslexic so you know you got to give her the benefit of the down.

58:26I'm severely dyslexic. I've never handed anything in not early because I take accountability and it's like everybody has something that holds them back. You take accountability for it and you figure out a way around it. But if you go, oh, well, this is the thing that I'm now going to use. I can't do it because of this. You won't be able to do it because you've now adopted that as a crutch. Now, this is going to stop you being able to be successful because you've said that it's going to stop you. So a lot of it is just mindset that we go into things with. All right. After the break, we'll talk about how Disneyland uses architecture to socially engineer millions of people a year.

59:10Really. But first, let me engineer a quick moment for our sponsors. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Progressive. You chose to hit play on this podcast today? Smart Choice. Progressive loves to help people make smart choices. That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your Progressive car insurance rates with rates from other companies. So you save time on the research and can enjoy the savings when you choose the best rate for you. Give it a try after this episode at Progressive.com. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates.

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1:01:12It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in-depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place, homes.com. We've done your homework. If you like this episode of the show, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support the amazing sponsors who make the show possible.

1:01:46All of the deals, discount codes and ways to support the podcast. They are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If you can't remember the name of a sponsor, you can't find a code. You're just too lazy to do it. Email us seriously. We would love to surface codes for you because it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now for the rest of my conversation with Dr. Abby Maronio. Your book, by the way, is full of practical exercises and drills, none of which I have covered on this episode. It's fine. It turned out even better than I think it would have if I'd just gone through chapter by chapter.

1:02:19But I'd love to talk about the self-disclosure. This example really stuck with me, the Disney example, but also because I feel like I've been using this in my life a lot ever since I was young, all the way through adulthood, this idea of self-disclosure, not the same thing as pantsing yourself, but kind of the other side maybe of that same coin? Yeah. So self-disclosure is a tactic that I found to be really, really effective in creating feelings of closeness. So self-disclosure is instead of one person sharing, say you're asking them questions like an interview, self-disclosure is where it's mutual.

1:02:55So mutual self-disclosure. And this is a tactic that I train for federal officers to use when they're trying to elicit a confession or create cooperation. Instead of just asking questions, they give some information. Because if you want someone to provide you something sensitive, say I want something about your childhood or I want you to tell me something that might be a very difficult thing to talk about. The best way to get that information is to provide them something to show them, hey, I'm not asking you to do something I'm not doing. One thing that I would say to my clients when I'm coaching is say I have a federal officer and he knows that the individual he's going to be interviewing has had a very difficult past.

1:03:43And part of that past may be the reason for why they're doing things, that they're not talking about their history. Say, you know, maybe they had a very difficult relationship with their parents. Don't say what's your relationship like with your parents. Start and disclose your relationship with your parents. You could be lying. I say this to their office. You don't necessarily need to be telling the truth. But if you say, I am sorry, I'm a little late. I was just on the phone too. Oh, my dad, you know, it's not been a great day, you know, and you kind of disclose, you know, there's some family difficulties.

1:04:18This you wouldn't use in an investigative interview, but say you're about to go into a meeting. You now disclose a little bit of information about yourself, something that you know would matter to them. You kind of pave that way. So now you've kind of set the scene of, okay, I've disclosed something about myself. And now it opens the door for them to disclose about themselves and then you validate their information and then you disclose a little bit more about yourself and then they do and then you give them the rings so that's kind of the tactic of you pave the way by disclosing a little bit of information about yourself not too vulnerable you start off at kind of a basic level and then they often match they disclose a bit about themselves and you know you want to get really deep so you now go a little bit more vulnerable a little bit deeper and disclose a little bit of information and then they will often match that because now you've created this kind of matching vulnerability and you don't want to keep doing this you don't want to keep disclosing more about yourself if you want that information from them but you're just opening the door for them to feel safe enough because what it does is it humanizes you so for example going back to the investigative interviewing if you want to learn about their childhood and you drop a little bit of information about yours you've now not only opened the door but you've humanized yourself now you're not on opposing sides of you're asking me questions and you just want my information hey i'm relating to you so it's bridging that gap now and it's been shown to be one of the most effective techniques for creating feelings of closeness and when we feel closer to someone, we understand them, it increases how likely we are to cooperate with them.

1:06:04I see. Are we extending trust to others so that they extend trust to us? Is that kind of the idea behind this? Yes. Okay. It shows, say you're in a negotiation, often we go in with the minds of this person is just in the way of the goal. We see them as the opposition. It's a really natural thing that we see us as the in group, them as the out group, because we have difference in goals. I want this, you want that. Okay. So we're opposing parties. When we start to disclose information about ourself and we humanize ourself in that way, you kind of stop seeing them as the opposing party and see them as more like you.

1:06:42And it bridges that gap of, hey, I'm being vulnerable with you. And as soon as someone is vulnerable, it increases that perception of trustworthiness. And also, if you're really nervous to share something and you're like, I would never do that. And someone goes, oh, I actually have done that. And you go, oh, okay, well, maybe I've done that too. One thing that I have found that stops people reporting when they have fallen for a scam is the shame. They pretend that, oh, I've never done this. So often when I'm training or doing a talk, because I'm an expert in this field, I'll say, hey, I train people not to do this.

1:07:23I did it. Who else has done it? And then they're like, oh, okay, well, I might have done it. If you just start and say, who's fallen for this? People are like, I wouldn't. But it opens the door of, hey, we are all human. I'm human just like you. I've done this. And it makes it feel safer for them to then disclose their information. A lot of people listening right now are probably like, that sounds terrifying. Can't this be used against me if I start disclosing things. What do you think about that? That's why you need to be careful of what you disclose. So mutual self-disclosure doesn't mean oversharing.

1:07:55You don't have to be like, this is my trauma that I have been through. And then just assume they're going to give you all of their information too. It's about appropriate information sharing. So with the federal offices, they won't sit down with a suspect and being like, oh, so you're abused as a child I was too abused as a child you know it's not quite that level of disclosure it's appropriate so they might share something about their personal life something appropriate but just to humanize themselves you say you know I was listening to other interview and it seems like you and your girlfriend have had really difficulties communicating here I know what that's like.

1:08:38I am always saying the wrong thing. You know, I come home late at night, I'm stressed, I'm always saying the wrong thing to my partner. You like that too? And it kind of opens that door in an appropriate manner. And you'll be able to see for your context what is appropriate and what is not. But oversharing and just giving loads and loads of information and going really, really deep is not effective. And that's why it's important to kind of level it. You don't want to start sharing something really personal. You open the door and then again, you validate that information and you let them take the reins.

1:09:13You don't just keep sharing more about you if it's clear that they're not reflecting back. Tell me the Disney example, because this was kind of like a nonverbal self-disclosure that did a lot of heavy lifting in a more casual situation. Yep. So this was often if someone is slow, it gets really frustrated. I'll just get on with it, get on with it. But this lady, she had a trainee on her badge and she was struggling. So because you see it, it's the nonverbal self-disclosure. The same way that when you're driving and you're a learner, you put a learner badge on because you're basically disclosing, hey, I'm still trying.

1:09:53Please give me the benefit of the doubt. So it's kind of that nonverbal self-disclosure and people are really receptive to it. When you say, hey, I don't fully know what I'm doing yet, but I'm trying. People usually are a little bit more, it's okay, I understand. I've seen it in cues where people are, come on, come on, come on, and they're being pretty aggressive. And then the person will say, sorry, this is my first day. And then you, oh. Take your time. So sorry. Yeah. And all that aggression goes, because again, it's that when someone is in the way of what we want, we just see them as the obstacle and we see their lack of ability to get us what we want as their fault and it frustrating us and it creates anger and we just see I want to get the goal and we forget that other people have their lives too we don't even consider that it's really hard when we're in that emotional state to engage in that empathy and when someone you know pants themselves, whether they have the trainee badge or say, you know, it's my first day, it brings us back to humanizing them.

1:11:01And we're like, we almost feel bad for how negative we felt towards them. And then it's like you said, often it now makes us want to help them more. Like that person of, oh, now, you know, I'm going to buy all your courses. Now I'm going to do this because we feel bad. This is something I could probably talk about for hours, but I remember often, And especially when I was working in Detroit, you know, you'd accidentally step on someone's foot and I was wearing combat boots and they're wearing nice new shoes. And then they look at you like you have deliberately disrespected me because stepping on someone's foot is like a big deal down there in certain areas where your new shoes are everything.

1:11:37And if someone doesn't do anything about it, you're, you know, so I just remember going, I always had to do this. I would say, sorry, man, these boots are the wrong size. And I've been stepping on my own feet. It's not just you. And I deeply, I'm so sorry. And these guys are like, the security guy just apologized to me for stepping on my foot. They don't even know what to do with it because they're like, oh, he's challenging me. This punk stepped on my new shoes. Do I hit him? Because then the other security guys are going to come after me. Now I'm just going to get in his face and start yelling.

1:12:06And they're like, what the hell, man? And I'm like, dude, I'm so sorry. These boots are the wrong size. They just gave them to me. I really I'm so sorry. Have you had a good night so far, though, man? And they're like, oh, they don't even know how to handle that because nobody apologizes down there because it's a sign of weakness. But I'm like, I am armed. I'm not weak. Right. And I have three giant men behind me who are going to back me up. So the fact that I'm apologizing is like doesn't even compute. It really just takes the snow globe and shakes it up all over again. I found it to be one of the most effective tactics in business to not take other people's behavior personally and emotions personally.

1:12:39I remember I was recently in New Mexico as an expert witness on an attempted homicide case. And I was there for a nonverbal analysis. And one of the things that served me really well as an expert witness is I don't take anything personally. And that's what the opposition count on. So their entire job is to try and discredit you. And I trained the Secret Service. Their approach to trying to discredit me because they couldn't discredit my qualifications. They couldn't discredit my practical achievements. So they went for Trump was shot at an official rally. so you don't train them very well. That's my fault that Trump was shot because I provide training to seek the service.

1:13:24And I remember after giving my testimony, one of the people on my side had said, did you not find that really offensive that they tried to say that? It just really belittles the work you do. It was such a absurd approach. And I said, no, not at all because their whole job is to try and discredit me. If they didn't do a good job, then they wouldn't be doing their job very well. I treat them exactly the same as I treat the people on my side because I don't take any of that. Personally, it's not about me. They're doing a role. And having that mentality when they're using those approaches against you and they're trying to get you into your negative emotions so you don't use critical thinking.

1:14:05When you're like, oh, I don't take an offense by this. It stops you from blocking that critical thinking. So I stick on. I'm able to make my points very clearly and logically because I'm not stuck in that survival mode and I'm not fighting with my negative emotions and that anger that's blocking my critical thinking. And if you take that into meetings or interviews or negotiations and you stop taking everything they do so personally and you remember they have a goal and they see you as the thing in the way of their goal and actually just focus on their emotions really have nothing to do with me, has more to do with them.

1:14:43It is a really effective tool. Man, being an expert witness would be, I think, a lot of fun because something about being cross-examined or having opposing counsel talk to me, it just lights a fire. And I love it because I remember so many times they try to discredit you and they try and get you on the back foot. I remember one guy was like, is this the signature on the document? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, how do you know? And I said, I watched him sign it. And they would go, I have his driver's license right here. And the signature is different. And I would go, I'm pretty old. Can you come up here and show me?

1:15:14I can't see that far. And he got up and walked up to me. And I looked at the judge and I go, is this how we do handwriting analysis? Someone just holds up the driver's license and then takes a look at it and doesn't show anyone else. And the judge goes, no, that is not how this is done. And you counselors should know that to him. And he just like slinks back down in his seat. And I was like, judge, I'm sorry, what am I supposed to do with that? And she goes, disregard and strike it from the record, it was a waste of the court's time. And the jury was just like, yeah. And I was like, yeah, dude, not the flex you thought it was, was it?

1:15:48No, I don't think so. And that is a perfect example of you acting in critical thinking and staying calm and him being in survival mode. Yeah. Because critical thinking is blocked. And whenever I always say that if you want to be a really good debater, you have to have the ability that someone is shouting in your face and you don't take it personally. Because the second you get emotional about something, you don't make good choices. It's true. I've seen this happen when I'm a witness. I witnessed a break-in, whatever. This guy had broken in and started stealing bikes and I was there, the cops caught him.

1:16:24I witnessed the whole thing. And I remember the prosecutor was like, what did he look like? And I'm like, he looked like the defendant. And they're like, no, no, no, no. Like, what did he look like? And I described what he was wearing and they would go, aha, what ethnicity was he? And I'm like, I don't know, he was wearing a mask. And they're like, so you can't even be sure it was him. And I'm like, no, I'm sure it was him. And he's like, what makes you so sure? And I was like, because I watched him get dragged out under the fence by the police. And he was the only person in the building, which was well lit.

1:16:49And I saw the whole thing. And then again, he was like, shit, I didn't know that you were gonna answer the question like that. And it's like, dude, cross-examination 101, never ask a question that you don't know the answer to already. I don't know what it is, but like having a judge up there, a jury watching you, and then watching somebody step into your trap and totally blow it is like the best feeling in the world. Because it is a very difficult ability. When people around you get emotional, you can watch them make mistakes. And when you stay calm, often the people trying to push you and push you, they get more aggressive and more aggressive because their tactic against you isn't working.

1:17:30So it works in your favor if you can really maintain that level of calmness and critical thinking. And again, OK, I'm not taking your emotions or your attack personally. It makes them more frustrated. They make more mistakes. Yeah, it's just there's something I don't know what it is, man, about it. I just I love it because the stakes are high, I think. And there is a like an adrenaline thing going and you're like, is this going to work? And then it does just I don't know. There's something about it. I just can't get over it. But anyway, look, enough about that. I think a lot of people can relate.

1:18:00Even if you're not in court, there's a feeling like that, that you get doing something that you love. And it's that scratches whatever itch I have. You had an interesting tangent in the book about Disneyland using environmental influence for social engineering. Can you speak to that? Because I found this endlessly fascinating. I would love to do a whole show about this if I could find somebody who knew Disneyland well enough to discuss it. It's called embodied cognition. So embodied cognition is... Cognition? Embodied cognition. So we are connected to our environment. The sights, smells, sounds around us affect our inner workings.

1:18:34So our psychological processes, like my thoughts, feelings, emotions, affect my outer world. So my behavior is how I interact with people, my perceptions. And we know that there is this mind-body connect because there's been some amazing studies. For example, even just basic of if there wasn't this mind-body connect no placebo would ever work and there is this great study done where they had these yogurts and they were same yogurt but one was labeled high fat one was labeled low fat and when people ate the high fat yogurt it increased ghrelin in the stomach which is the satiety hormone telling us we're full and if there was no connection between this biological effect and psychological effect, no ghrelin would be released.

1:19:23So we know that there is something going on with the mind where we think something and it changes the biology, but also when there's something on the outside, it changes the psychology and it can change the biology. So there's no argument that there is this effect of the outside effects, the inside, the inside effects, the outside. Places like Disney know this and they use this really really effectively so if I can create a smell that is warm and comforting it makes you feel warm and comforting and when we feel positive we're more trusting we spend more so if I can create this environment that is conducive to feeling really good I can make you spend more.

1:20:11So what they will do is if you go to Disney World or Disneyland, it smells like freshly baked cookies. It smells amazing. And they do this because they trigger those senses and they make you feel good. So you feel more positive and you spend more money. You even though you cross a moat to get in. So it's like leaving reality, crossing the moat to get into Disneyland. All created on purpose. Where you do, you cross that moat, all the sights, all the sounds, all the smells is kind of like otherworldly. It brings you out of that outside world. And all of it is to create this feeling of community and positive feeling.

1:20:54Because when you feel positive, you spend more money. There's another famous thing that they do with the underground tunnels, right? So you have the pirate area in the Alice in Wonderland area in the Snow White area or whatever. But you don't want to see a dwarf walking through the pirate area and you don't want to see stormtroopers on their lunch break walking through, I don't know, Snow White. So they built this system of tunnels to help the staff essentially get around. Also, they don't want you to see Snow White with her head off and it's like a middle aged man or whoever's in there. They have also done it so the bins where they collect the trash, they come from the bottom under the tunnel.

1:21:36So you never see someone collecting rubbish on the ground because it would ruin the image. It's this fairy tale that they're creating. So those tunnels is where they get the rubbish from underground. So you never see someone ruining this image of we're in a different world. It's really fascinating. I think I told the story the other day, but they do such a good job with, I saw a kid crying, might've been my own, not saying, because it was the ride was too scary because the dumb parents, which were definitely, definitely wasn't me. It took them on a ride that they were not ready for. And one of the Disney princesses was like, what's wrong, princess?

1:22:12And the daughter was like, looking up through the tears, like, what do you mean? And what's wrong? Was the, oh, was this ride too scary? And I was like, dad might've taken her on Magic Mountain when she wasn't ready for, you know, and they were like, oh, let's do something fun together. And I don't know where this came from, but she went and got, I guess they have authority to just go and get a balloon somewhere, like a Mickey balloon for free. And they gave it to her. And then they were like, what else do you want to do? Do you want to go on another ride? And she was like, come on, dad, and took my daughter's hand.

1:22:39And we walked to another ride. She cut in front of everybody. And my daughter got like on some kid ride. And I was like, wow, this took this, oh, no, oh, I don't like Disneyland. It's scary moment and turned it into Snow White gave me a balloon and took me to the front line of, I can't remember, Alice in Wonderland, something, something. And it was like, by the time you're done, you're like, I don't care that the tickets were$120. I got blown away by this experience. Yeah. They keep you in that state of everything feels magical because they know that that is the optimal state to spend. Yes. And they don't want any negative emotion because okay well now I don't trust it and now I don't want to spend they want to make sure that everything is perfectly created and crafted for this image and these emotions so they're going to do everything they can they do it so well with the environment to the sounds like I said the people even them staying in character for every single moment the underground the no rubbish and no trash on the streets and cleaning up it is so perfectly crafted because that's the perfect environment where you're like i just spent thousands of dollars who cares i feel great it's a difference between overpaying at the airport where you're just getting screwed and you have to rationalize it and you take it because you're like whatever i'm at the airport and overpaying at disneyland where you don't have to go but you're happy to go there and overpay by 10 times but when you buy a caesar salad that's pre-packaged at the airport you resent it.

1:24:08And it's like, yeah, it's the difference between those two things. And it's really incredible how Disney engineers it. Again, I would love to do a whole show on that. I just, I don't know who's even authorized at Disney to discuss how they do this because some of it is, you know, supposed to be magical. Yeah. So Abby, thank you so much for coming on the show. This is really interesting stuff. Again, the book has a ton of practicals that we didn't even get to here because we were diving in the deep cuts and I appreciate you coming along for the ride. And thank you so much for having me. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show about how technology can augment our brains and allow the blind to see and the deaf to hear.

1:24:43The conscious mind just gets access to the very top little bit, the newspaper headlines. And the reason is, you know, you've got almost 100 billion neurons. Neurons are the specialized cell type in the brain. These are doing incredibly complicated things. And by incredibly complicated, I mean things we haven't even scratched the surface of yet in terms of the algorithms that they're running that make us up. I don't think we could even function at our scale of space and time if we had access to that level of detail. I mean, you can't keep 100 billion things in mind, and each one of these neurons is talking about 10 ,000 of its neighbors.

1:25:16I mean, just look at riding a bicycle. If you really pay attention, okay, how exactly am I moving? You'll probably crash. If you play a musical instrument, you know that if you start paying attention to what your fingers are doing, you're dead. You can't do it anymore because what's happening is so fast and sophisticated that you can't possibly address that with the slow, low bandwidth consciousness. This has to be something that the rest of your brain takes care of and just does for you. These are all zombie routines. They're just completely automatized. Most of them we never even have access to.

1:25:45The vest is probably our best bet for the next 50 years or something until we figure out better ways to get deeper in there and plug things directly into the brain. but that is not as easy as people think. We're just now at this moment in history, for the first time in billions of years, where we can suddenly feed in completely new senses to the brain. In a year from now, the human species starts proliferating into all these different kinds of experiences that can be had. To learn how it's possible to create completely new superhuman senses, check out episode 655 with David Eagleman on The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:26:24Great conversation, and I really hope listeners picked up the big point here. The white hat version of influence isn't just the moral choice. It's the more effective choice. Manipulators go dark because it's easier in the short term. Maybe they're less skilled. But if you care about long-term results, long-term relationships, and keeping your reputation intact, ethical influence wins every single time. Dr. Abby Moronio's book is The Upper Hand. It'll be linked in the show notes. Buying books from the show notes does help support the show in a very minor way. Supporting the sponsors helps even more.

1:26:55So if you want the links to our books, those are on the website. And if you want the links to the sponsors, those are also on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. Also, our newsletter is waiting for you. You guys love reading it. We love writing it. It's practical. It's a two-minute read. Comes out every Wednesday morning. It'll affect your decisions, your psychology, your relationships. It is something you can apply right away. And if you haven't signed up yet, I invite you to come check it out. Again, a great companion to the show, jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it.

1:27:24Of course, 6-Minute Networking available for free all the time at 6minutenetworking.com. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn where the mostly sane people seem to be. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Tata Sidlowskis, Ian Baird, and Gabriel Mizrahi. Remember, we rise by lifting others. The fee for the show is you share it with friends when you find something useful or interesting. In fact, the greatest compliment you can give us is to share the show with those you care about.

1:27:54If you know somebody who's interested in influence or social engineering, definitely share this episode with them. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time.

1:28:10What if this was someone in your family that had a chronic illness that they could not get away from? Millions of Americans live with a disease that has no cure. I was diagnosed with a rare form of sarcoma. The most immediate findings indicated that I should lose my leg. It ended up taking four clinical trials in 25 years to get me to this point. Cures are within reach if we invest in funding for life-saving medical research that's needed to find them. Even if they're unsuccessful in my treatment, that they will have learned from my treatment that will be able to allow others to stand on my shoulders to be able to be helped.

1:28:56Join the fight for cures. Tell your elected representatives to support American medical research. Visit unitedforcures.org slash action to send a letter today. Paid for by United for Cures Action.