1256: Cheatin' Heart Yearns for Return to the Start | Feedback Friday

23:28If you go and tell your boyfriend the truth, and let's put truth in air quotes for a moment here because the truth of what you are feeling right now is, I think, limited and relative. It's a truth that, from where I'm sitting, is informed by so much unconscious and unclear material to really be, you know, like the capital T truth of where you are these days. The truth at this moment is mostly that she's confused. Yeah. So you would mostly be bringing your confusion to him. And I think that conversation would probably be a lot more productive if you had just more insight. So I'm going to fall on the sword, the katana sword that Jordan was trying to delay a moment ago and say, I think it's time to start therapy.

24:04Absolutely. Thanks, Gabe. Cue the slew of three star reviews from people saying all we do on this show is tell people to go to therapy. I will happily take those stars if it helps our friend here get on the couch. That's fine with me. We have maybe 12 minutes with you guys when you write in and you're bringing your entire childhoods to us. And we look, we can't heal everyone just like that. You guys get that, I hope, right? Well, my co-host throws a minor tantrum about his Apple rating. I'll just say. And Spotify. The bind you're in and the reservoir of feelings and experiences that it's floating in, namely the shame that you described, is precisely the territory that you can really only move through in a deep and ongoing way in therapy.

24:43On the couch, for sure. You're asking a practical question. Do I get engaged? Do I talk to my boyfriend? Do I reach out to my ex? But it's like you're trying to wrap your arms around this very complicated tree. But meanwhile, the roots go miles underground. Nice metaphor. She's treating it like a bonsai tree when it's more like those trees in Avatar that talk to one another, you know? Exactly. Our experience, by the way, our Japan metaphors are getting out of hand today. But yes, our experiences have like a mycelium network beneath the soil, you know what I mean? And if you don't know where those are going or where they come from, it's really hard to make progress.

25:15So your last question, do I try to let go of the past and fully commit to what I have now? I don't know how you let go of the past or how you do something as big as commit to the future without going through this part. I don't think it's possible. The ability to commit to anything or anyone is such a primitive thing. So I don't know if you've heard of a woman named Melanie Klein. She founded object relations theory. So she wrote a lot about how the capacity to love, and I think by extension, the capacity to be in an ongoing relationship with anything, implies the capacity to bear anxiety and guilt.

25:51And that capacity begins when we're infants. How well does a small child hold these mixed feelings about their parent at the same time? How do they love the primary caregiver while also tolerating the anxiety and the guilt that come from what she called this ambivalence around the consistency of that object? So a baby, on some level is always asking, is the object going to come back? Is it safe? Am I safe? Did my anger, my shame, my anxiety, my crying, whatever it is, did that hurt the object I love or can I depend on it to stay close? Wow. Yeah. Which is exactly what she's wrestling with in these two relationships, isn't it?

26:28Totally. But this ancient conflict, it develops in the furnace of childhood. And I can only assume that her past, to your point, is playing a huge role here as it does for all of us. So after a month or two or three or whatever of therapy, whatever that timeline is for you, you might be ready to talk to your boyfriend about all of this, but in a new way. At the very least, I do think you'll be able to say something like, look, here's the deal. This is scary for me to share with you, but I also want you to know where I am and I want to be fair to both of us. I'm confused right now. I'm conflicted.

26:58Here are the things that I'm confused and conflicted about. Here's what I've learned about why I'm in this place with you, with my ex, with this, that, and the other thing. Here's where I am in the process. I want to stay with you and keep doing this work. I want to get engaged or I don't want to get engaged. I need some time to myself so I can get clear on things. I've or I've decided to end this relationship, whatever it is you're feeling. This is up to you, of course, to decide. But I just want you to know where I am. And I'm ready to talk about some of this stuff, which has been hard for me in the past.

27:27But I am also ready to find out if we can handle it. Or maybe going to therapy will resolve a lot of these conflicts and answer a lot of these questions. And that conversation will go very differently. Or that. Either way, you're right. There's work to do closer to home before she tries to work this out with her boyfriend when it's still very much in process. But I do think that's compatible with starting to open up to him a little bit more. Maybe that's part of her process too. She could literally say, listen, I know we've talked about getting married. There are a few things I need to get clear on, a few experiences I need to process.

27:57I'm going to be doing XYZ things, therapy, whatever it is, in order to do that. I'm not quite ready to talk about it, but I want to do that before we explore the idea of getting married. And thank you for letting me do that. Wonderful. Great. So on that note, I think you're absolutely right to worry about saying yes to any proposal while keeping these feelings to yourself. It's not fair to him. It's not fair to you. It's not fair to your kids for sure. And it's just going to kick this can down the road when the stakes are even higher and not to freak you out just to help you avoid a huge iceberg.

28:26But if you don't slow down and give yourself some time to dig into this stuff, you could blow up a second relationship or you could continue to be one foot in, one foot out with all of this anxiety and the guilt and the confusion and the impact to your kids. And that is going to hurt even more. I also just want to remember that you have a number of other big things in your past, right? The sexual trauma, a previous relationship, the father of your daughter, sounds like. And of course, the religious trauma around sex and shame that I feel like you alluded to there. Also, this pattern of silently assuming the blame for various things.

28:58That's another big one. Another template that gets created early in life. And I would love for you to have the space to unpack all of that, everything you've been through. And I'm so sorry you've been through it. It's all informing where you are now. So yes, therapy with a good therapist, this is an investment, but also a good friend or two. Reading, journaling, experimenting with being more honest with people in all different contexts. These feelings that you are wrestling with, I know that they're painful. I know that they're shameful. And I can hear from your letter that they are very intense.

29:29But they, on their own, are not fatal. The only thing that's potentially fatal is continuing to avoid them or send them underground and then hope that your results are magically going to be different. If you want to move forward, you're going to have to go back for a time. Yeah. But not back to your ex-husband. Not right away, anyway. But back to yourself, is what I'm saying. Then you'll know which relationship you want to have with the past and the future, whether you're with the right person, and you won't just be chasing these chaotic feelings around without understanding them. That's so important.

29:59Sending you a big hug, wishing you all the best. And now we're going to break our silence and say that there's no shame in patronizing the amazing sponsors who support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Aura Frames. One of our family traditions has taken the kids to get photos with Santa every year. we've got the whole timeline, baby Jaden crying in Santa's lap to the, okay, this isn't so bad toddler photo to the now full on excited holiday chaos photo. Every year we take the best pictures and then they just sit in the cloud. If it weren't for Aura frames, honestly, half those memories would never see the light of day again.

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31:09That's A-U-R-A-FRAMES.com promo code Jordan. This deal is exclusive to listeners and frames sell out fast. So order yours now to get it in time for the holidays. Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is also sponsored by BetterHelp. Every year around the holidays, we got this little tradition of loading the kids in the car and hunting for the best Christmas lights in town. We'll cruise around, find the houses that went way too hard with synchronized music and 10 ,000 bulbs. The kids lose our minds every time. It's chaotic. It's cozy. It's one of those traditions we all actually look forward to.

31:40But something that I've learned is holiday traditions don't have to just be about the big family moments. You can make space for yourself too. The holidays can be wonderful, but they can also crank up the stress and the pressure and sometimes even the loneliness. Making therapy a part of your holiday routine? That might be one of the healthiest traditions you could start. That's where BetterHelp comes in. Their therapists are fully licensed in the U.S., held to a strict code of conduct, and getting matched is simple. You fill out a quick questionnaire. With over 12 years of experience, they pair you with one of their 30 ,000 plus therapists, and if the match isn't quite right, you can switch anytime.

32:17This December, start a new tradition by taking care of you. Our listeners get 10 % off at betterhelp.com slash Jordan. That's betterhelp.com slash Jordan. Thank you for listening to and supporting the show. Your support of our advertisers keeps Gabe on the road where he belongs, sleeping on the floor of various monasteries across the world. All of the deals discount codes and ways to support the show are on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Please consider supporting those who support the show. All right, back to Feedback Friday. What's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. A couple of years ago, I inherited a house together with my siblings.

32:55My brother lives there. The rest of us do not live in the state. He's unemployed, on disability, with some psychological issues, diagnosed narcissistic personality disorder, but I suspect it may also be that he's undiagnosed autistic and definitely self-medicating. He's not financially able to buy us out, and none of us really want to sell it out from under him and evict him. He's our brother, and we love him. Plus, it's a family home, and we would theoretically love for it to stay in the family. The problem is he's allowed the homeowner's insurance to lapse. He's not maintaining the property.

33:30He won't allow us to enter it. And he absolutely refuses to allow us to renovate it into a duplex at our expense or at an ADU so that we can rent part of it out and at least be getting a small cash flow in exchange for him living rent-free in our inheritance. This happens so often and parents mean well, but what they do is they basically go, all all right, who's my least self-sufficient failure to launch has dropped the ball on every opportunity throughout their entire life, child? Okay, we're going to put them in the house, but then we're going to give that house theoretically to everyone, even though he's going to have to use it and never be able to leave.

34:08And they're like, our work here is done. And then they kind of, I mean, I'm sorry to make light of it, but then they, you know, pass along to the other side. And it's like, you have just created so many problems. I don't know what you were thinking. Because you know mom and dad knew about this guy. Of course. Yeah, they, one, knew about it. And two, I'm a little bit of a cold a-hole when it comes to this. They probably enabled the crap out of this guy for his whole life, which is why he still lives in mom and dad's house. And they're like, no, no, no, all the siblings own it too. And it's like, what are we supposed to do with it?

34:37Are we just supporting this guy? Like, basically, you end up in this exact same situation. So this is the piece of information I was waiting for. Your narcissistic brother is shamelessly mooching off of you guys. He's not doing anything to help you in return. in fact, is making your life even more difficult. That really tells me, again, I said I was a cold a-hole here. This just tells me all I need to know. I believe we can file to partition our interests in the property and then a majority of us, or possibly even just one, it's unclear, can put the property up for sale. But all this does is basically evict my brother, since he doesn't have the money to buy it and he won't qualify for, and also doesn't quote-unquote believe in mortgages.

35:16Oh, he doesn't believe in mortgages. What a convenient stance for a guy who doesn't want to pay for anything. It doesn't work. Does he also not believe in credit cards when he swipes his MasterCard down at Walmart? No, he probably only believes in the handouts that he's been getting from the government and everyone else's whole life. Does he not believe in national debt when he gets his SNAP benefits every month? Because that's basically a mortgage the government takes out in the form of treasury bills to support his sorry, lazy, pill-popping ass. Oof, brutal take, dude. I hate people like this.

35:46I'm sorry, I can't stand them. They are the worst. I'm done with this guy. I know I should feel somewhat bad for him because he has all these issues. He just sounds like a garden variety a-hole that has a medical excuse that he's leaning on to be a jerk to everyone in his family. Doing this is basically the nuclear option. And when I look at the amount of strife and grief that it would cause in our family, I don't feel like it's worth the money that I would receive from it, which leaves me stuck. Look, I'm not sure I agree, but I don't know about the money, but I also sympathize with this. You know what?

36:15Screw it. I'm going to make this someone else's problem, even if it means I don't get paid. Bye, I'm done. But that wasn't the intent your parents had, I assume, when they handed this property down to you. Look, I hear you. The pain involved feels higher than the reward, and you could very well be right. I've tried to talk to insurance companies about getting my own homeowner's policy in case the absolute worst happens. For example, someone gets injured, sues, comes after me as the only non-judgment-proof sibling, and takes my pitiful life savings. Oh, someone like your brother? Oh, man. Do you think he would?

36:44Dude, this stuff happens all the time. The freeloading, narcissistic drug addict living rent-free in his house, like that family in the movie Parasite with zero shame or guilt, who's almost certainly been enabled by his family his entire life. Yeah, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that this guy also does something crappy to his siblings on top of all that. Oh, man. He's listening to this having a panic attack in his car. The car he financed and pays for in full every month, by the way, because he's a functioning member of society. But yeah, exactly. Look, I'm not trying to rile him up.

37:16I just I want him to understand the stakes here. And again, as the only non-judgment proof member of the family, you are a prime target. I'm getting ahead of myself, but I'm almost at the point where you just say you legally make this not your problem anymore if you can't solve the issues. Oh, man. But insurance companies are not engaging with me since I don't live there or have access to the property. Unsurprising. So this feels like a footnote to the real problem, but I hear you. If this really is a no-go with insurance companies, that is even more reason to address this head-on, even if it means just throwing the baby out with the bathwater and abandoning any claim you have to the property.

37:52I'm not sure I totally agree because I think his mind is going to the worst-case scenario, but there are other things that he needs to tackle before he worries about this very abstract liability. But let's get to that in a moment. I tried getting an attorney to help me figure out how at least to protect myself from liability, but I don't really know what kind of attorney I need to talk to. The most promising one I spoke with was insanely difficult to get in touch with. Luckily, they were incommunicado for two months before sending me my engagement letter to sign, by which point I had decided that in the event of a lawsuit, the plaintiff will most likely go after the house itself, which is worth more than three times what my savings are.

38:30And in that case, I might even see part of the sale proceeds, which would frankly be a better situation than where I am now. I'm not sure why you assume that. I can't help but wonder if that calculation is one more way to dodge the problem here. You'd rather take a huge financial hit than have some tough conversations. That's what I'm getting from this. Also, as a driven plaintiff with high damages, let's say somebody falls on the porch, it's icy, and they smash their back. they could take the house and then also come after your life savings. Why would they randomly just stop at the house? They're going to see who owns it and go after everybody's everything.

39:04Anyway, we'll get to that in a moment. So just to nip this lawyer thing in the bud, you could use an attorney at some point at least to advise on your strategy and the kind of lawyer you want, since it sounds like the estate is already settled, you want a real estate attorney or a landlord-tenant attorney with experience in co-ownership disputes. And you do not want an attorney who takes two freaking months to send you an engagement letter. Honestly, that jabroni did you a favor by being difficult. Move on and find somebody who actually calls you back. It's actually really amazing how many crap lawyers there are out there who don't have their stuff together and overbill or don't track their time or take two months.

39:39This person doesn't have your business yet and they're taking two months. Imagine when they have your retainer and you need them to get something done. You're gonna be waiting six months. That's insanity. No. If my brother were willing to work with us, so it wasn't just a pure liability for those of us not living there, I would be fine to just stick with the status quo. I like to think that property values are going to continue to go up, so by the time I want to take my equity out to buy my own home, it may have grown. But as time goes on, I'm just getting more and more uneasy about owning a share of this black box of liability with zero upside, and I want to extricate myself.

40:15My siblings are being very cagey about where they stand on things, so I feel like I'm dealing with this alone. What are my options, both legally and relationally? Where do I even start? Who do I talk to? How do I find an attorney? Signed, wanting to wash my hands of this property because the brother inside is not acting properly. Man, what a sibling. Not the first time, again, not the first time we've heard a situation like this. The pantheon of Feedback Friday is just filled with freeloading, Buddha-bellied, narcissistic family members of all stripes. But this is a new twist. diagnosed narcissism, possible autism spectrum disorder, substance abuse, financial abuse of his family, which is what this is, physical disability.

40:57There's just, there's a lot going on here. Oh man, you're getting moral outrage face. I can see it. Well, yes, I feel like I'm cartoon red right now. You're about as red as the Taylor Swift foliage I saw at that temple earlier. I just want to point that out. Oh my God, get over it. So I think you can already tell that I feel something has to change here. There is nothing fair or sustainable about this situation. Okay, maybe it's sustainable if you guys can continue taking the hit and sweeping all of this under the rug and just praying that nothing happens, but it's definitely not fair. Like you said, if he were making things as easy as possible on you, if he were allowing you guys to do the improvements or the additions that would increase the value, if he were a great brother in other ways, whatever that looks like, this would just be, it would be a different story.

41:41Then maybe I'd say, okay, let your disabled brother have a place to stay. You get to benefit in these other ways. Fine. That's not the case here. Your brother is taking advantage of you guys, straight up. I bet he's done this his whole life, by the way, but I digress. Maybe he knows he's taking advantage of you. Maybe he means to do it. Maybe he's totally clueless and unable to empathize with other people. It kind of just doesn't matter to me if you haven't noticed. The fact is, you guys are supporting him. He's doing absolutely nothing to earn it. And it doesn't even sound like he's thanking his lucky stars and you guys for being so kind to him.

42:12But I understand your dilemma. the strife and the grief of kicking him out, it feels greater than the money you'd receive. My question for you is, why exactly are those feelings so intense, so costly? I'm going to guess, just like question one, that goes back to childhood. Growing up with a sibling, probably feeling responsible for him from a young age, at the very least cramping around his myriad issues. So changing the script now, it feels very scary. And all of that has morphed over time into what I feel is enabling. You and your siblings, based on what you've shared, you are all enabling him.

42:47And I get how hard this is to change. I really do. This is a huge template to rewrite. My mom was in a similar situation with her brothers. It took years and years and years for her to do it, much to the annoyance of my dad and me, frankly. But look, that's what's keeping you stuck here. Yeah, I totally agree. I also think it's quite telling that his siblings are being very cagey about where they stand on all this. That's an important detail. Cagey or just totally unwilling to commit to anything because they are also as scared or more scared than you are to do something about this guy. So my guess is that they're walking on eggshells around this brother and or not being totally forthright with our friend here about how they truly feel, to your point.

43:26Maybe that's because it's hard for them to take a strong stance on this brother too for all of the reasons we're talking about. Maybe they don't want to acknowledge that they have also been enabling him in their own way over the years. I think it's also very possible that everybody in this family is similarly afraid of conflict. Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised since they're all products of the same upbringing. It might be hard for them to even acknowledge their difficult feelings about this brother in the first place. Yeah, that's my guess. That's super hard in a family system where the implicit message was probably none of us can fully express our true feelings about brother, our anger, our discomfort, our distaste, our embarrassment, whatever it is.

44:02And so we all need to protect brother, even if it comes at our expense. Which is leaving our friend here in an even more difficult place. As the only person in this family who might be willing to step up and say, I'm sorry, I'm done. This is not fair to any of us. So one answer to your question is you need to get together with your siblings and talk this out. So step number one is make lots of space to discuss brother, try to come to an agreement about your feelings as a group about all of this. This is going to be an interesting dance between making lots of space for you and your siblings to share your true feelings, which might be different from one another, at least at first, and also gently recruiting them to your position, which is that something here needs to change.

44:42Tricky. Not sure how he does that without being too heavy handed. Maybe give that Dr. Abby Moronio interview a listen, read her book, some great stuff in there about how to influence people with skill and integrity without the need for coercion. I would say do the first thing first and then think about the second thing, the influence piece. It might take your siblings some time to catch up to where you are or for them to feel heard enough to consider taking your side. I think it's even going to take you a minute, actually, to fully acknowledge your own feelings about your brother, because that's another thing that I'm hearing in your letter, your own ambivalence about where to land with him.

45:16Dude, I'm 90 % sure they all feel this way about brother. They're just too afraid to say it because of the enabling. Yeah, you're probably right about that. And our friend here could say, look, I understand that we all have complicated feelings about him. We all love him. We don't want to hurt him. But the reality is that he is taking advantage of our kindness and our avoidance and not making our lives easier and not doing anything to make this situation fair, to make our lives easier. And my feeling is that both of those things can be true. I like that. Something like that could make it less costly for the other siblings to speak up.

45:46Hopefully over time, you guys can come to a shared opinion about the right approach here, and then you can present a united front to your brother, which is going to be much harder for him to argue with. My feeling is if you guys do end up partitioning your interest in the property and selling it, which, yeah, means forcing your brother out, I guess, at the end of the day. There is still a kind way to do that. You can give him six months, a year, whatever you guys decide is fair, and that way he has plenty of time to make another plan. You can also say to him, brother, we love you, we want you to be safe, we want you to be housed, but we can't support you forever, and we can't take the hit without being able to create some wealth out of this property, which is only fair, and so we're going to do whatever we can to help you get into a new place.

46:26Dude, someone like this, he may even qualify and probably does qualify for subsidized housing or something. It might take a while to get in there, but that is an option. He might have NPD. He might be drinking too much or whatever, but he can fill out that paperwork himself. Or you can say, if this is the decision that you and your siblings come to, you can say, brother, here are your options. We either sell the property and you have to find a new place to live, or you allow us to do these renovations or add the ADU, which will ultimately benefit all of us, by the way. But you can't just squat here and not play ball.

46:58That is not fair to the rest of us. And if he refuses to entertain that idea, then maybe you have to put it in terms that his narcissism or his autism can understand. Help us understand why you are taking this stance. Please explain to us why you won't allow us to invest in the property. Because I know that you can see that this is not fair. If the situation were reversed, would you let any of us do this to you, we're confused. Why? Why are we here? Yeah, I like that. That's going to make it real hard for him to justify. I mean, he could be like, I don't want people on the property. I don't like the noise.

47:30I'm just thinking about some of his potential concerns if he is on the spectrum. But even that is something that they can work with. And I just don't know how much sympathy you have to have for somebody like this who has a quirk that's potentially costing you tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars, whatever. Well, if he absolutely will not engage with you in good faith on this, then you have more license to be tougher. Yeah. If that's where you land, then, you know, screw this guy. He's on his own. I think you can guess what I think you should do, but whatever. But then we're back to the original problem.

47:57How do I cope with the difficult feelings? Of course. He copes with them by going through these very reasonable steps, approaching all of this collaboratively, peacefully, and then hopefully together with his siblings, trying things in a new way and learning to bear those feelings. Again, a theme on today's episode, how to act in a new way and create new templates when you've been taught from a young age that certain feelings are too scary or too intense. And I understand that you love your brother. I know it's scary to think about hurting him or provoking him or destabilizing him. But here's my brutally candid opinion about that.

48:28Oh, no. Now you're going to give your brutally candid opinion? Yes. I was too, I was shudder-turning everything before. Let's say, buckling up. You are dealing with a narcissist here. Let's remember this guy is diagnosed NPD. He's not just like an arrogant jerk of the garden variety. You're allowed to be much less empathetic here. Your brother does not have the capacity to empathize with you. He doesn't have the capacity to treat you as a full human being who is just as real as he is, who also has needs and wants that are valid. He can probably view other people only as tools, as means to an end and to get what he wants or get what he needs.

49:02And that probably makes you, in his view, a way to get free housing. It's really as simple as that. And I know it sucks. You're like, I love my brother. I doubt he really has the exact kinds of feelings for you. I'm sorry. Your chances of fixing him enough to approach this harmoniously are basically nil. So this is me giving you some permission to just be a little more self-oriented and a little tougher here. Also, sparing your brother these difficult feelings and allowing him to coast while you guys take the hit, that is easier in a way, of course, but I don't know if it is ultimately loving.

49:32It's not entirely loving to yourself. I don't think it's very fair to your siblings. I don't think it's ultimately loving even to your brother, even though he would obviously prefer that. So addressing all of this would be a very big step for all of you, not just in your relationship with your brother, but also like your relationship with life. Because I know how hard this is, especially if you run a little anxious, which it sounds like you do. And by the way, this is the thing I wanted to circle back to when I was reading the letter. The anxiety that you feel is probably fueling some of these concerns about the insurance and the liability and what if somebody slips and then they come after me.

50:04That is something else I would keep an eye on. You're not wrong to worry about that kind of thing. Of course it could happen. Of course you want to be protected. But I also get the sense that obsessing about the possibility of being sued one day, that is fixating on a maybe problem in the future and not even the most pressing one when you have a very real problem to worry about right now, which is your brother. Completely agree. Completely agree, Gabe. This is not the only area of your life where somebody else's needs and interests are going to compete with your own. And you got to learn to assert yours in a healthy way, in a fair way, if you don't want to be taken advantage of or get hurt yourself.

50:38So be tough, but be kind and keep looking for solutions, not just conflicts, but options you guys can pursue. It'll be bumpy, but that doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. In fact, when you're dealing with a family member as problematic as this, it kind of means you're doing something right. Sending you and your siblings a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Please use the descriptive subject line that makes our job a lot easier. If your former business partner is stalking and defaming you, you're trying to overcome exhaustion and hopelessness while you reinvent yourself, or you're wondering whether to enforce an order of protection against your delusional, narcissistic, toxic wife, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

51:19We are here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter is a big hit with all y 'all. We love writing it. You love reading it. You can hit reply and reach us, and a lot of you do. It's delivered to your inbox most Wednesdays. It's a two-minute read at most. If you want to keep up with the wisdom from our thousand-plus episodes and apply it to your life, I invite you to come check it out. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. All right, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. When I get one of those pig-butchering text messages like, did you get my message? I know that I'm in for the usual nonsense that escalates into the full scam.

51:52I use the opportunity to string the scammer along for as long as possible, concluding with me sending a list of links about pig butchering prior to blocking and reporting the sender's number. My theory is that any time I can make them waste is time that they cannot target someone who might be fooled by their nefarious scripts. However, I also know that many of the perpetrators are themselves victims of human trafficking, as you talked about in your episodes with Nathan Paul Southern and Lindsay Kennedy. That was episode 833 and 1145, by the way. fascinating episodes. I wonder how sympathetic I'm expected to be to these people's plight.

52:29After all, we're constantly reminded about these scams and we're constantly targeted, and since the people perpetrating these crimes are well-versed in technology, shouldn't they have known that the work opportunity that they responded to was working at a scam center? What do you guys think of this somewhat ethical dilemma? Do I show sympathy and just ignore these attempts? Or should I prioritize the benefit of distracting these criminals from targeting others. Signed, looking for some wisdom and maybe a final dictum on if I should protect unsuspecting victims, when it's fun to say, yeah, I tricked them, even though these scammers are slaves in a very depressing system.

53:10You know, Jordan, I used to do this as well. I used to string these people along and have a laugh and post the screenshots to Instagram because, you know, it's entertaining and like it's fun to mess with scammers. But then I listened to the Nathan and Lindsay episode and I had to stop, obviously. Also, I'm busy, so what am I doing with my life? But now that I know that a lot of these people, maybe most of these people, I don't know exactly the breakdown, but most of them are just victims who are caught up in these really awful scam centers, these cyber slavery operations. It's just terrible. You can't do it.

53:39Yeah, same here. I can't justify it. You're sometimes hearing from literal slaves who have to do this in order to not get beaten or abused or abandoned in a country where they probably live illegally. Or worse, maybe they get killed, disappeared, whatever, it's so dark. Plenty of them joined willingly because they get paid well, but like you just don't know who's who. So you're not really getting one over on the scammers themselves when you do this. You're just kind of messing with somebody who's carrying out some script in a call center because they were hoping for a better life. And to your point about shouldn't they have known the work opportunity they responded to as a scam?

54:12Not necessarily. A lot of these people have no idea that these slavery operations even exist, or they know it's a possibility. They roll the dice because their situations are so bad and so desperate. They want to leave. They want to build a better life. They want to get paid. And by the way, a lot of these people who respond to these jobs, they're also applying for like bartender at restaurant or maid at hotel. And they're recruited by what seem like proper recruiting agencies in, you know, Bangkok or whatever. Why would they know it's a scam? They think they're going to be making Mai Tais in a pachinko hall and they end up being enslaved doing the pig butchering scam in a Cambodian call center.

54:48So it is heartbreaking. I mean, a lot of these people that get rescued, they're like, yeah, I've been here for three years and I thought I was going to be a waitress. So yeah, in some sense, you might be sparing someone else who might fall for the scam. That's an interesting way to justify this. I tend to agree. But the numbers are just not on your side. You're one person. There are probably tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of these people spread across Asia primarily. So it's really a drop in the bucket, unfortunately. If you really want to help people, your time would probably be better spent writing posts on social media or articles or whatever about this problem and giving people resources to protect themselves.

55:22Or maybe donating to nonprofits that are combating cyber slavery. Right, or like that super brave person who contacted Nathan and Lindsay recently did. Instead of just stringing one of these scammers along, you ask them, are you being held against your will? Are you stuck in a call center? And just see if they engage. Maybe they engage, maybe they don't, but I'm struck how many stories we've been hearing about how many do. Ask them where they are. How many people are there? What's happening? See if they can give you another phone number, leave their location tracking on. That's how Lindsay and Nathan actually saved a whole busload of slaves, I think was in Cambodia recently.

55:56Then take screenshots of the thread, send them along with the phone number and the location to local police, Interpol, Lindsay and Nathan, I don't know. They've been helping bust a lot of these centers, most recently that$15 billion Bitcoin enterprise, which is just incredible. It's the largest seizure in Department of Justice history. That's how you really make a difference. That's an investment of time and energy too, but maybe not a huge one. And if you contribute to these people's freedom, man, what a good deed. One of you guys wrote me recently, or maybe this was in our subreddit. I wish I could remember the details.

56:26But one of you told us about texting with one of these scammers and asking questions like this. And the scammer actually texted back and said something like, yes, it's awful here. And if you ever get a text like this, do not respond. We will ruin your life. Yeah, I saw that. That's so chilling. So if you want proof that most of these people are decent human beings who hate what they're doing but are forced to do by these gross Chinese gangsters who are buying huge mansions in Malaysia with Ethereum or whatever. There you go. It's a tragedy. And I'm very grateful to people like Nathan and Lindsay who are dedicating their lives to busting these people.

56:59If you want to go deeper into this, I would check out my interview with Winston Sturzel. That was episode 737. Of course, the episodes with Lindsay and Nathan as well are super interesting about this. This topic's not going anywhere. This is one of the biggest scams in the world. You know, they say that these scams may make more than drug cartels? Crazy. Crazy. Wow. Speaking of scams designed to empty your wallet, now a word from our sponsors. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Simply Safe. Quick true story, this year we've had a string of break-ins in our neighborhood, holiday deliveries disappearing, cars getting checked at night, the whole thing, and it made me realize our security setup needs to level up.

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58:08They can even trigger a siren or a spotlight. And let me tell you, nobody sticks around for that speech. That's why I trust SimpliSafe to protect what matters at my home. Real security stops trouble before it even gets in the door. And there's no contract, no headaches. SimpliSafe was just named the best home security of 2025 by U.S. News and World Report. Right now is the best time to do it. This month only, you get 50 % off any new system. Go to simplisafe.com slash Jordan. Again, simplisafe.com slash Jordan. There's no safe like SimpliSafe. This episode is also sponsored by DeleteMe. DeleteMe makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable.

58:44I'm fired up about this because the amount of personal information floating around online is insane. I take privacy fairly seriously, but even if you're not a podcaster or a public figure, your data is absolutely being collected, packaged, and sold. Data brokers, they literally make money off of you, your name, your phone number, your email, your home address, where you've lived, even info about your family. Anyone can buy it, and that can help fuel identity theft, phishing attempts, harassment, all the stuff nobody wants to deal with. And even if that has not happened to you yet, you probably know somebody who's been through it.

59:13Removing your data from these broker sites helps protect you. That's why I use and recommend DeleteMe. They remove your personal information from hundreds of data broker websites, so your details are not just sitting there for anybody to grab. And the New York Times Wirecutter named DeleteMe their top pick for data removal services, which kind of tells you that they're the real deal. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for DeleteMe Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20 % off your Delete Me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash Jordan and use promo code Jordan at checkout.

59:43The only way to get 20 % off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash Jordan and enter code Jordan at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash Jordan, code Jordan. This episode is also sponsored in part by Jasper. We've tested a ton of air purifiers over the years, seriously more than any normal household probably should. and what you start to realize is clean air is one of those things you don't really notice until you don't have it. Wildfire season, cooking, pets, allergies, your air changes constantly. Most purifiers just are not built to keep up. That's why I'm such a fan of Jasper Mike, the guy who created it.

1:00:15He spent years doing home restorations after wildfires. So he's seen what truly bad air looks like. He realized that the purifiers sold for homes are just nowhere near the level of the commercial grade stuff used in restoration work. So he basically said, fine, I'll build the thing that should exist. And Jasper was born. Industrial level performance, but quiet, efficient, and something you don't mind having in your living room. What I really like is how reactive it is. You cook, it ramps up. Some wildfire smoke rolls in the neighborhood. This thing sees it, smells it coming before you do. And for allergies, my whole family breathes easier with these things running.

1:00:46Also, last year, they completely sold out. People ended up waiting weeks and weeks for a restock. Their inventory is running a little bit low again. And right now is the best time to get the best deal. So if you want to check it out, go to Jasper.co slash Jordan and use the code Jordan for 25 % off. I'll say this, I'd still be recommending these even if Mike were not a friend of the show. They're just that good. Again, JASPR.co slash Jordan. The code Jordan gets you 25 % off. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support our amazing sponsors that are almost certainly not run by Chinese gangsters.

1:01:21To learn more and get links to all the discounts you hear on the show, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If that doesn't work, feel free to email me. We're happy to dig up codes for you. It really is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, now for the recommendation of the week. I'm addicted to lip fill-on. It's not quite the same, but I'll take it. My recommendation of the week is the Bradley meat smoker. It's called the Bradley smoker. Sorry, Gabe, I know this is your worst nightmare, but we love this thing. As long as you're happy, I'm happy.

1:01:54Oh, thank you. I can tell how passionate you are about this. Jen loves this. She uses it all the time. Basically, I guess regular smokers that you get ash on stuff and carbon. This thing doesn't do that. It burns these wood biscuits that automatically rotate and drop after it burns for 20 minutes. So it's always burning. This sounds like an oxymoron, but clean smoke. It's never burning the ash and getting like the worst part of that stuff on the meat. Also, never imagined ourselves to be able to smoke meat. It wasn't a thing I thought I would do, but it's so easy to do. It makes brisket and turkeys.

1:02:28It's amazing, really great for family gatherings. We're going to smoke a turkey for Thanksgiving. It's been a real game changer. Highly recommend it, even though we usually don't plug show sponsors and recommendation of the week. Bradley was a sponsor a long time ago. It's a very old sponsor, but bradleysmokers.com slash Jordan gets you 15 % off. And the device is awesome. We've been using it for years and years and just Jen loves it. She busts it out every single chance she gets, really. Also, in case y 'all don't know, there's a subreddit for the show if you want to jump into discussions with other listeners about specific episodes.

1:02:59Episodes you love, episodes you hate, potential show topics, sponsors, everything is up for discussion over there on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Okay, next up. Hey guys, if you were a federal civilian who was laid off, what would you do? I mean, beyond the six-minute networking stuff, which I attempt to do almost every day and getting into better shape, how would you take advantage of this time? Signed, trying to avoid new frown lines during this unexpected downtime. Yeah, good question. Well, first of all, very sorry you were laid off. Not sure if you were part of the government cuts or if this is a temporary thing related to the recent shutdown, but either way, that sucks.

1:03:35I hope you're holding up okay and not just lounging around hating life. So beyond nurturing your relationships and exercising, which are two pillars of life you have to invest in whether you're employed or not, I would say keep working hard to connect all of the dots you're creating. Stay close to people, spend a few hours a day putting in the legwork on finding a job, applying, emailing, interviewing, whatever that is. But with your free time, I would actually read as much as possible. Books are usually the first thing that falls away when you're too busy, which is such a shame because there's so much great stuff to learn by reading.

1:04:08Fiction, nonfiction, physical book, audiobook. I would make that a priority. Pick a great book or two that relates to your career or your life phase or a topic you're excited about. Maybe one fiction and one nonfiction to sort of balance things out. Make that a little project. You can do audiobooks while you walk or exercise in other ways. I love to do that. I love to combine those things. You can run errands while you listen, kill two, three birds with one stone. I would also do all those annoying life things that you put off when you have a job. make a big list of projects around the house, cleaning out the cupboards, the drawers, the attic, clear the gutters, whatever it is, donate a truckload of crap to Goodwill.

1:04:45I know that it's kind of a basic pitch. I get that. But actually, this is more than just, you know, make good use of your downtime. All those dumb projects we put off, I do this all the time too, they just create mental clutter. They take up background memory. They put a monkey on your back. We don't even realize it because you get so used to it where you're like, Gotta fix that step, you know what I mean? Part of our brains are always consumed by the things that we are not doing. And that makes us less effective everywhere else. So this is actually super important in my opinion, and that's another great thing to do when you have the whole day to yourself and way more energy.

1:05:20I would spend a little time in your inbox every day and go through all your unread messages. I know that sounds like a nightmare, but do something with them. Respond to them, delete them, archive it, move on. That's the digital equivalent of the last thing. And every time you come across one that's from a person who's important to you in any way, I would respond with a few sentences. I know we're back to six-minute networking now, but this is crucial. Your job really is to stay connected to people, to create as many dots as possible, and your inbox is, well, it's where a lot of that happens. I might also take this time to reflect on your career, your life, where you're heading, where you want to go.

1:05:54Again, when you have a job, it's so hard to step outside of it and go, okay, is there something else I want to be doing? Or, you know, is there another way I could be doing this job that's going to be more impactful or more gratifying? Is there anything else I could be doing around my job that would be fulfilling, interesting? You're basically on a forced vacation right now. So I would maybe use that freedom to take a step back and think about your professional life, but really your whole life in a new way. Whenever I travel, even short trips to New York or whatever, I always find I have more ideas about work.

1:06:23There's something about not being in your daily routine that puts you in touch with new stuff or gives you the distance you need. to see things more clearly. But you have to be intentional about this. Sit down with a notebook, open up a Google Doc, talk in your voice memo app, whatever's the easiest, jot down some notes, make it real for yourself. Don't just like, you know, think about it and then forget. I want to write an article about the project I did at work this year. Try to get it published. Great. Then I would think about two or three people who could help you with that or would benefit from that article.

1:06:50Reach out to them, say hello, chip away at it while you're still unemployed or work on it in pieces when you get a new job. Doesn't matter. Share drafts with people. turn it into a process. Interesting how most things collapse back into relationships, right? It's really kind of unavoidable. I mean, we need one another, right? Humans are social. This is what being alive is kind of about. If you want to do something, it's going to involve other people, people you know, people you want to get to know. Even if you need to work on something alone, at some point, someone's going to have to use that thing or read the thing or enjoy the thing.

1:07:21So my approach to anything is there's always a relationship building aspect to every goal, And that layer makes it way more successful, way more interesting. Plus texting someone, hey, how you doing? I'm unemployed. Totally fair, better than nothing. But texting someone, hey, I was laid off or I was furloughed and now I'm working on an article about this cool project I worked on. I'd love to interview you for it. I'd love to share it with you, whatever. Which one is going to get a better response? So when I bang on about six minute networking, it's not just self-serving. I don't just need your email that I can literally never use for anything so far in the 18 years that I've done the show.

1:07:55it's that your relationships are really the fabric of everything you do. And that's why this stuff pays off. Sorry, you were laid off, my friend. But honestly, it sounds like you're approaching this time very thoughtfully. And I love that. So take good care of your responsibilities. Take good care of the people in your life and trust that's the best way to take care of yourself. Sending you good thoughts. And I hope you land somewhere great soon. Go back and check out our episodes with Justin Human and Dr. Abby Maronio and our Skeptical Sunday on organ donation if you haven't done so yet. Show notes and transcripts always on the website.

1:08:26Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show. Always at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's over on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show has created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tadis Sadlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others.

1:08:57Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on this show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with James Patterson and what would make the best-selling author walk away at the top of his game. It's rare that I don't write. What I discovered was that I loved doing it. And then I started writing stories, and I just loved it. I didn't know whether it was any good, but I loved doing it. And I would just write, write, write, write, write.

1:09:28So when the first book came out, Thomas Behrman's number gave Little Brown a blurb, and he said that, I'm quite sure that James Patterson wrote a million words before he started this book. It was a great compliment. And then I decided I'd try a novel. I'm really happy with the way that turned out. One of the things you always like to do at the end of the chapter is they must turn that next page. That's a strength. The weaknesses, I sometimes don't go as deep as I should. Here's the secret. Hit them in the face with a cream pie, and while you have their attention, say something smart. That's it.

1:10:04No cream pie. They didn't even notice it, so forget about it. You're just talking to yourself, and if you don't say something smart once you get their attention, it's irrelevant. You surprise people, which I think is important for my kind of book. We need heroes. And one of the things about the military, and it's very true in this book, in American Heroes, but also Walk in My Combat Boots, the military is about we, not me. And one of the things I think we need to get back to a bit more is we. And it's hard to come by now, duty, honor, sacrifice. It just has to be more we rather than just me. To hear more as James Patterson reveals the moment that changed his life and the unconventional process that's helped him sell over 400 million books, check out episode 1100 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.