1266: Cutting off Creep Whose Manipulation Runs Deep | Feedback Friday

23:35They can evolve. And the best way ultimately is to create new experiences with people that show you that life can be different from what happened before, that you can be different with different people, with different approaches. Standing up to a creep and a bully in your professional group is one great way to do that, to show yourself that you can withstand the distress. You can survive that, among other things. and also pursuing men who are healthy and high functioning, who aren't super weird and allowing them to take an interest in you without putting too much stock in the fear that they're only doing that because they must be up to something else.

24:09That's another way. We obviously do not have full control over the plot of our lives, right? Like you can't will a great guy who doesn't push any of your buttons to come into your life tomorrow, right? You can't go back in time and handle Saul differently. So you could have that experience. What you do have more control over is how you generate new experiences and how you show up in those experiences and how you meet yourself. And that includes taking everything you learned from the Saul debacle, all the information that it's kicked up about you, which is considerable and valuable, and all these lessons it's giving you and use that to hopefully seek out new relationships with more awareness, more flexibility, more creativity, more courage.

24:51So I know that's a little abstract, but I really do believe that if you can do that, then this bigger goal, learning to trust again, that is going to take care of itself. Totally agree, Gabe. Because like, how does a person learn to trust again? How does anyone do anything big and conceptual like that? I understand the question, but that's a huge idea. If you break it down, it really just means like catching yourself, assuming the worst about someone or speaking up along the way when something bothers you or sharing some of this stuff with people who are safe, whatever that looks like, doing that in a way that gives you new data, which, like you said, that's a process.

25:25It's a process for everyone. Okay, we went pretty deep on this one. What's going on beneath the surface? Again, I'm sorry that Saul did a lot of this to you, but given everything we're talking about, in a way, I'm happy you had to deal with him finally, because I think this dude has laid bare some really important stuff for you. Painful, absolutely, but very important. And in that way, this veritable opossum's anus, this preeminent platypus's perineum, he might actually be playing a powerful role in your growth, which, like it or not, always turns out to be the case, sending you a big hug and wishing you all the best.

25:59And now, we all know the economy's tighter than an opossum's anus these days, so don't miss out on the deals and discounts on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy. And Bombas is leading that charge in my house. We love Bombas so much, it's all we wear. We even gift it to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the grip socks so we don't slip around on our floors. Bombas just launched their new sports socks, which are amazing for whatever you're into, running, golf, hiking.

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26:58Head over to Bombas.com slash Jordan and use code Jordan for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash Jordan. code Jordan at checkout. This episode is also sponsored by FitBod. Let's talk New Year's fitness resolutions for a second because every January we all do the same thing. We get motivated. We swear this is the year. We go hard for like nine days. Then life happens. Suddenly we're back to our old ways. That's why I like FitBod because it's perfect for actually sticking to your 2026 goals. You don't need an expensive personal trainer to hit your 2026 goals. All you need for a personalized workout is FitBod.

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27:59It adapts based on what you've trained recently. So if you want 2026 to be the year you actually stay consistent and you want variety so you don't get bored or hit a plateau, FitBod is a great move. Level up your workout in the new year. Join FitBod today to get your personalized workout plan. Get 25 % off your subscription or try the app free for seven days at fitbod.me.jordan. That's F-I-T-B-O-D dot M-E slash Jordan. Thank you so much for listening and supporting the show. all the deals, discount codes, and ways to support this podcast are searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

28:34Please consider supporting those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I have a friend, let's call her Mary, who's in her 50s and married to a man who's barely 30. Her kids are roughly his age, so you can imagine the layers before we even get to the actual problem. Wow, interesting. I guess younger spouse, weirdness with the kids. People usually say that when the woman is younger, not the man. I was actually just thinking the exact same thing. It's somehow less weird for society when it's the man for reasons that I can't quite put my finger on, but maybe slash probably that's unfair.

29:11So is she going to explain the layers or? So she goes on. She used to work for my family and was practically a grandmother figure to my child. She's always been kind, competent, and dependable. Then, everything fell apart. Okay, so no detail on the layers. Got it. That's not what she's writing it about. That was a prologue. Too bad, because now I'm going to speculate, but fine. I'm assuming it's some combination of divorce messiness and general age weirdness. All right, let's hear it. Her husband had an affair, and the other woman in the situation has been doing her best impression of a villain from a bad Lifetime movie.

29:45Harassment, nasty notes, the works. When Mary discovered the affair, she completely unraveled. She became fixated on the situation to the point of obsession. She couldn't eat or sleep, lost a dramatic amount of weight, and entered a kind of shutdown state. At her lowest point, she told one person that she had threatened her husband with a knife. Meaning, just to be clear, Mary threatened her husband. Mary threatened her husband, that's right. With a knife, okay. I just want to make sure because she said the other woman is a lifetime villain and this sounds a little knifey. Yeah. Lifetime villain sounds a little knifey.

30:18She told me that she actually stabbed herself in the stomach in a suicide attempt. She used the word suicide explicitly. Oh my God. She refuses to involve the police, refuses medical help, refuses therapy. She just spirals. Then things escalated again when her young dog suddenly got sick recently. The vet confirmed it was poisoning and they had to put the dog down. The next day, the other woman left Mary a voicemail that strongly implied she was responsible. Not directly admitting it, but enough to make your hair stand on end. Wow, that is some bunny boiler stuff. So, we got a Glenn Close on our hands here.

30:56That's exactly the image that just popped into my mind. This is terrifying. Damn, what does this woman have against her? She stole her husband. Yeah, you would think it'd be the other way around, right? Like, you stole my husband, I'm gonna kill your dog. Okay, so if she did this, this woman is insane and dangerous. To add to the instability, Mary's husband also quit his job. Now neither of them are working, and Mary's mental health is worse than ever. All she does is sleep, cry, and care for her elderly parents. She's barely functioning. This poor woman. So just to clarify, Gabe, Mary and her husband, neither are working and they still live together.

31:30That's what it sounds like. All right. It's a little confusing. So they're still tied to each other? This is a mess. Yeah, they're still involved, clearly. Cohabitating, at least. Meanwhile, I work for a collective impact agency. We coordinate services and community supports, but we don't have a case manager of our own. And I think that is exactly the kind of professional Mary needs right now. My contribution to the situation is basically limited to moral support, documentation, and some very bleak humor to cope. I know I'm not Mary's therapist, crisis worker, or law enforcement authority. but she keeps reaching out to me and then rejecting any suggestion that might actually keep her safe.

32:10Okay, yeah, that's tough. I'm trying to protect my own mental health. I recently lost my dad and have kids to raise, but it feels awful to watch a friend disintegrate and know the situation around her is objectively dangerous. Yeah, that is brutal to watch. How do I navigate supporting someone who's in a genuine mental health crisis, refusing help, potentially in danger from someone else, and unwilling to take even basic steps to protect herself. Is there any middle ground between stepping in hard and stepping back completely? Or is the only realistically safe path to draw a line and get outside agencies involved, whether Mary likes it or not?

32:51Signed, looking for a way in with my decompensating kin and a healthy way to check in without becoming this woman's live-in when she will not let me in, but also won't begin. The work of getting out of this tailspin. What a cluster. Yeah, both Mary's situation and that questionable sign-off. Yeah, I'm glad you volunteered at this time. Both might require an intervention. So first of all, I'm very sorry you had to say goodbye to your dad recently. That is really tough, and I hope you're holding up okay. To be grieving a parent and to be worrying about a family friend like this, it's a lot for one person to handle, and it's just got to be pretty overwhelming.

33:28I'm sorry for Mary too, of course, It sounds like the affair threw her for a loop. She's unemployed. Her husband's unemployed. Soon to be ex-husband, I guess, is unemployed. She's having a mentee bee over there. But to lose your financial stability and then your pet, possibly because the woman your husband got involved with murdered it. Dude, devastating, man. It's this poor woman. She doesn't deserve any of this. But she's also making it hard and possible, really, to truly help her. And I know you know how I feel about that. There's only so much you can do. There's only so much you can do. She's literally saying, I won't involve the police.

34:01I will not get medical help. I will not go to therapy. Okay. It's just so hard because then she's also keeps reaching out and talking about and then she's like, okay, here's an idea. And she's like, no, I don't want to do that. Frankly, that's not fair. It's not fair. She's it's maddening. She's putting her in a very difficult position. So look, if I were in your shoes, here's what I would do. The next time she calls you to vent about all this, I would say, hey, listen, Mary, I love you. We go back a long way. You were practically my child's grandmother. You're kind, you're competent, you're dependable.

34:26And I'm so sorry you're going through all this. Look, I'm on Team Mary all the way, and I've been asking myself, how can I actually help my friend here? What does she really need? What can I do? And the truth is, I don't know. I don't know what I can do. Because you've shared some really painful things with me. You tell me about all the ways you're hurting and how you've hurt yourself. And I'm more than happy to listen and support you. But when I try to offer ideas that can help, I notice you turn them down. And that puts me in a confusing place. Like, how can I really be there for Mary? So I want to ask you, and I want you to really think about this, what would you like from me?

34:57What would be most helpful? Do you want to try things in a new way that will help you get through this chapter? Or do you just want to talk? Because I'll be honest, if you're ready to open yourself up to help and pursue that help, I'm here to help you do that. I work in collective impact. This is what I do. I'd be thrilled to get you the support you need. But if you're not ready for that, then I'm going to have to pull back and let you figure this out in your own way, which is totally fair. Honestly, it would break my heart to watch you continue to struggle, but this is your life. You have to navigate it the way you want, and I can accept that.

35:27You say all of that lovingly, you can't go wrong. It's going to feel scary, I think. It might feel cruel almost, but it's actually the opposite. Because what you're saying is, I care about you so much, I'm going to point out how you are getting in your own way. Yeah, good point. I care about you so much, I'm going to let you tell me if you really want my help. And then I'll be there. Exactly. So this is important for two reasons. One, I think it's the only way to snap Mary out of this fog, or at least try. I don't know exactly why she's rejecting your solutions. I think I can imagine. She's probably scared to open herself up to help, scared to confront a timeline where her marriage is over and she needs to go her own way.

36:04She's probably embarrassed that she needs help. She doesn't want to face all the feelings that have driven her to spiral out and attempt suicide, which I can understand to some degree. She's probably also getting something out of just complaining about all this. She's the victim here, it's true. And there might be something comforting about just complaining about it without doing anything about it, whereas your ideas are forcing her to move into a new place, which is, okay, so what are you going to do about it? What piece of this do you own? So by asking her point blank how she wants to be supported, you might shock her in a good way into stepping into that reality.

36:39And maybe you can make some room for that as well. What do you think is holding you back from trying any of these ideas? Like when I say to you, hey, I think you should talk to somebody. What happens to that when we hang up the phone? Where does that go? Yeah, if she can go there, that could be helpful. If she can't go there, then that's also good information. The other reason I think this conversation is important is it's going to help you clarify your responsibility here. Because you're saying, I know I'm not her therapist. I know I'm not her crisis worker. I know I'm not a cop. But I can't stand watching my friend fall apart, which, again, totally understand.

37:11It is heartbreaking. But until Mary says, OK, I'm falling apart, but I'm willing to talk to somebody. I'm willing to see a doctor. I'm willing to file a police report. I'm going to go stay with my sister and pick myself back up, whatever it is. I'm afraid there's kind of nothing you can do to meaningfully help. Saying this out loud to her, that's also a way of reminding yourself, I'm not Mary, Mary's not me, I can only support her up to a point, and I can't keep trying to save someone who doesn't actually want to be helped. We come back to this theme over and over again, so I won't belabor the point, but remembering this is really important.

37:44And I think that is the middle ground between stepping in hard and stepping back completely. I think so, because she's not inserting herself into Mary's life and forcing her to do things she's not willing or ready to do. But she's also not going, okay, you're on your own, Mary. Like, you're out of your mind. I give up. Bye. Like, you know. Right. She's being a good friend by standing nearby and going, what do you need? Where do you want me in your life? I'm here. I will say, though, the one area where I would step in forcefully and intervene is if she's in immediate danger. So if she calls you and, like, she has a knife in her hand.

38:14You call 911. There's no question about that. Or even if she's making vague threats to hurt herself or hurt somebody else, you call the police. And or you call her husband or you call some of her family members. You make sure that they know that Mary is not doing well and they need to keep an eye on her. I think the insight that our friend here is looking for is how do I love someone without compromising myself? How do I protect somebody without taking away her agency? It's tricky. That's always the tricky balancing act, yeah? So kind of like question one, again, it's more of an ongoing question than a firm stance, which means accepting that Mary might really struggle for a while or possibly worse.

38:51And part of the reason that your script, Jordan, is a good idea is that if Mary does continue to spin out and something bad happens, then our friend here doesn't have to feel like she didn't really give it a shot when she could have. It's easier to bear the guilt or the sadness or any regret or whatever might come up if she knew she showed up for Mary in the right way now. So a good theme to start the year on, I think, because this is something I wrestle with pretty consistently and it shows up in everybody's life in one form or another. I'm so sorry that Mary's going through it. I'm sorry you're hurting and dealing with all this on top of it.

39:21But you know, your grief about your dad, your responsibilities in your own life, they deserve your energy first and foremost because you are ultimately responsible for you. And I hope that helps you keep an eye on the priorities here. Sending you, Mary, and your whole family a big hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, or you're struggling with overeating and hoping to make progress as quickly as possible in therapy, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

39:55We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, it is a gem from us to you every Wednesday. It's a two-minute read or less. That's our promise. So if you want to keep up with the wisdom from our 1 ,000-plus episodes and apply it to your life, come on and check it out. It's a great companion to the show. jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Okay, what's next? Hey, guys. My boyfriend has been at his place of employment for a decade. He's the best employee, those are the boss's words, and very valued. Then, recently, he asked to be paid a salary instead of an hourly rate so he could have a steady paycheck.

40:31His boss agreed to this two months ago, but has yet to decide on a number. Wait, wait, wait. He's so valued he's the best employee. Hey, can I get a steady paycheck? No, you're not valued like that. We value you with mere words around here. Sorry, did you want money with that? That's going to be tough. Let's get into all that in a moment. Meanwhile, my boyfriend discovered that per New York state law, he was supposed to be getting paid sick leave since 2020. He was never made aware of his eligibility for it, has gone into work sick many times, and didn't take any time off when her son was born.

41:05He pointed this out to the boss, but the boss doesn't think it's true and refuses to make it right. But also like, oh, that can't be true. If only there were some way to quickly get answers to questions like this. The Department of Labor, speaking of answers to questions like this, recommended filing for wage theft and gave him the paperwork and information for a free lawyer. The problem is, he's trying to solidify the salary that they discussed. He wants to continue working there, but it's a small business, and even though there are laws against retaliation, he's afraid of what would happen if he dropped a dime on the company to the Department of Labor.

41:41Reporting this would also mean that his fellow employees get what they are owed. Have to imagine that's part of the boss's concern here. Should my boyfriend keep his mouth shut and accept his salary? Or should he fight for what is right and risk an uncomfortable relationship with the boss? When standing up for himself might be a gaffe, but this boss is also legitimately screwing over the staff. Good question. Tricky situation. We wanted to run all this by an expert, preferably also somebody with a real job. So we reached out to Joanna Tate, friend of the show and HR professional for over 20 years.

42:14And the first thing Joanna explained to us was whether a job is paid on an hourly basis or as a set salary. That isn't just something a boss arbitrarily decides. This is actually news to me. The Federal Fair Labor Standards Act, the FLSA, it uses a set of standards, basically, to determine whether a job should be paid on an hourly basis, a.k.a. non-exempt, or on a salary basis, which is called exempt. Jobs that are paid on an hourly basis, they're generally jobs that are more hands-on or they're task-based. They tend to follow a set of processes, defined tasks. They don't have a high level of independent decision making.

42:49So think customer service reps, warehouse workers, admin assistants, retail workers, repair techs, food service folks, medical assistants. Like, you get the idea. Okay. Also, Joanna said that overtime pay is required for these positions. Usually any work time over 40 hours per week or in a couple states like California, any work time over 8 to 10 hours in a day. Salaried jobs, on the other hand, those are jobs that involve managerial responsibilities, independent judgment, specialized professional knowledge that require education and training. So like accountants, analysts, project managers, IT professionals, executives, engineers, jobs like that.

43:30So Joanna said that your boyfriend can hold the job description up against the FLSA exemptions tests and ask, does this role make independent decisions? Does it supervise? Is it professional level work? does it meet salary rules? If not, then it must be hourly. I know this is kind of weird. It's news to me, too. I never really thought about this, but I've always wondered about it. Why classify somebody as salaried when you can just pay them hourly? I never totally got it. Joanna also told us that employers generally take on less risk by classifying a job as hourly because the FLSA has pretty strict criteria.

44:04So if a role is misclassified as salary but should have been hourly, the employer would owe back pay for all the missed overtime payments, plus some fees, some penalties, whereas paying employees on an hourly basis with overtime, that almost never creates an HR compliance risk. But then if your boyfriend's job meets the standards to be paid on a salaried basis, then it would be easier for his employer to pay the same rate every pay period. So if the job qualifies as exempt, meaning he should be paid a salary, then Joanna couldn't say why the boss would be holding back on making that move. I don't know.

44:34She obviously can't know for sure, but this scenario you've described, plus this boss's total indifference to New York state law, in Joanna's view, that makes him seem avoidant. So here's Joanna's advice. If your boyfriend gets an agreement from his boss to move to a salary, he needs to get that in writing. I would also add that when he had that conversation with his boss about moving to a salary, we're not entirely clear on how that conversation went down, but he should have probably come to an agreement or at least begun the discussion about what he actually wanted to be making. He should have gone into that meeting with a number and gotten the boss to agree to it.

45:07If not in the meeting, then shortly afterward, not eight weeks later, we still don't have an answer. So either use the hourly rate he was making to translate to a salary or use it as an opportunity to get a little bump or something like that. I hate to say this and I'm speculating a bit, I know, but this is often how bosses manage to exploit people. When the employee is like, yeah, I want a salary. So you get back to me on what number that is and when I can expect it. And the boss is like, cool, I'm going to do absolutely nothing with this particular request until I am forced to. After that, Joanna said that he needs to ensure that the change is made to his next paycheck or on the effective date.

45:42But then your boyfriend can work 30 hours or 100 hours each week and still get the same pay, which he obviously has to be OK with. Now, in terms of sick pay, Joanna looked into New York state law a little bit. And what she found was that almost all private sector workers are eligible for sick leave beginning in 2020, regardless of whether they are hourly or salary. So the only business is not required to basically apparently are businesses that employ four or fewer people and have a net income of a million dollars or less within the previous tax year. So we are all getting the impression that your boyfriend's company has more than four people since you mentioned his fellow employees.

46:19so we're going to assume that the company qualifies under this law. And by the way, we're going to link to the relevant New York laws around paid sick leave in the show notes for you so you guys can read that for yourselves. The challenge is your boyfriend likes his job and apparently the boss is very happy with him or at least says he's happy with him, but he has some good indications that his boss will also resist doing the right thing here. And if your boyfriend complains or pushes for this the wrong way, yeah, it could cause a rift and everything else that comes with that in the workplace, right?

46:47Awkwardness, hostility, possible retaliation, whether it's fewer development opportunities or like a write-up or suddenly his schedule changes, he's working nights, even though retaliation is also clearly illegal and it might compromise this salary discussion. Which again, that's another reason he should have locked in that number ASAP and gotten it in writing. Yeah, good point. And Joanna said that the fact that his boss is doing this, that is concerning, whether he's just uninformed or he's purposely being non-compliant. Because like, what else is he overlooking accidentally or on purpose, right?

47:19That creates noncompliance. How might he try to cover his own ass if it turns out that he's broken the law? How is his treatment or his decision making going to change if he feels threatened or embarrassed or just confused about the law? These are risks. Right. So Joanna's advice to your boyfriend is this. Document the conversation he had with his boss, the date, what was discussed, all that. Keep copies of his pay stubs and any evidence that he went to work sick. Emails, text messages, whatever it is. She would also encourage him to have a conversation with that free lawyer that the Department of Labor referred him to and find out what his options are, how things might go down, how he would be protected or not if he reported the issue.

47:56And if your boyfriend ultimately decides to file a claim, Joanna said that he should probably be prepared to leave this job afterward for obvious reasons. But she also said that speaking up and making this right, it really is the right thing to do for him, for his coworkers, even for the business. When he does it, that's up to him. But honestly, my take, your boyfriend needs to do the math on what's more valuable to him, the sick pay, the stolen wages or this job that he loves and the new salary that he might enjoy. There's a way to put a dollar value on that. If the boss owes him like 30K, I would confront the boss and get the money and find a new job.

48:30But I don't know if it's like 5K and he loves his job. It's a different story. I think he can also get the other employees together to approach this boss as a group and say, hey, listen, we looked at the law. We're not sure how closely you've read it, but here's what it says about we're supposed to be paid like this sick leave works like that. You need to make this right. Non-confrontationally, ideally at first, and give him a chance to do the right thing, which honestly he should already be doing. And I would not be surprised if he already knew about this. But just for the sake of the relationship, maybe give him one shot.

49:00And that'll also take some of the heat off of your boyfriend. True, but the boss is probably still going to figure out that he got everyone together. And that's, you know, not going to be good for you. if your boyfriend can secure this new salary, get it implemented, and then get the boss to adjust the sick leave stuff right after, I think that's the ideal outcome. But whether that's possible with this guy, I just don't know. But if the boss is like, okay, I'll think about it, and then does nothing, there's your answer. We're rooting for your boyfriend, and good luck. You know, it's a great use of all your reclaimed stolen wages, Gabriel.

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51:37You can also email our team, jordan at jordanharbinger.com. Someone here will dig up a code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. All right. Back to Feedback Friday. And now for the recommendation of the week. I'm addicted to lip filler. Nice, Gabriel. Thank you. My recommendation of the week is Bartender for Mac. It's an award-winning app for macOS that for more than 10 years has superpowered your menu bar. But I love this thing because if you have a Mac, that top thing by the clock, that's the menu bar, it has all these little icons. And you're like, what is this?

52:10And it's like this thing you use once a year for your power supply that you don't need up there. And it's in the way and it's cluttered. You can hide that with Bartender. And you can cover other things up there. You can rearrange things that are up there. You can unclutter it. And then you just click the little sunglasses or the bow tie, whatever your bartender icon is. And then they all appear. And then there's stuff that you never want to see because you never need it for some reason. There's a menu bar icon for all kinds of crap I will literally never use in my entire life. And I permanently hide those.

52:39And so my menu bar is nice and clean. It doesn't have a zillion things. Now it's useful, right? Because if I want to click on my password manager, it's like the only thing up there. If I want to switch Wi-Fi networks, it's the only thing up there. I just find it so useful. And I think it's like 20 bucks a year or something. And they update it regularly. It's just a worthwhile upgrade. If you're a Mac user, it's called bartender and we'll link to it in the show notes. They're not a sponsor or anything. Again, recommendations of the week are always just things we like. And speaking of things, we like to talk to you on Reddit.

53:06I'm not allowed to anymore. I called someone a Muppet on Reddit and I got a permanent ban for harassment. So they are thin skinned up in there. However, we do have a sub Reddit for the show that is now moderated by Gabriel and Bob. I read it all the time. If I really have something to say, somebody will say it for me. Somebody who's definitely not me, because making another account would be against their terms of service. But somebody would reply there, I am no longer a moderator there. Again, I read everything, and there's some fun discussions in there. I would say I misread it, but I can still read everything, so I guess I really don't.

53:37But you can join most of us. You are the definition of a lurker now. Yes, I'm a lurker. I'm the chief lurker. And you can find most of us on that subreddit. It's the Jordan Harbinger subreddit. Ironically, missing Jordan Harbinger. All right. Next up. Dear Ernie and Bert. I hate that's becoming a thing, but okay. Whose fault is that? You could have booked a room with two beds in St. Louis, bravo. We wouldn't be in this situation. I mean, it was the publicist's fault and the hotel. Who doesn't have any rollaways and yours for deciding to join the trip at the last minute? And you took a photo and you posted it.

54:10Which you consented to and laughed about multiple times. Fair. Immaterial, though. Kind of material, actually. Why don't you just read the letter, Bert? Okay. During the financial crisis of 2008, my father, who was starting an asset management company for wealthy individuals, lost millions of dollars of his clients' money as well as his source of income as a result of market manipulations, not through any direct fault of his own. Brutal. I am sorry to hear that. Market manipulations. Someone else did something weird in the market. He made some bets, but maybe like people shorted certain stocks that he put his clients money into.

54:50Yeah, that's possible. But I don't know because I'm very curious what the details are on that. I suspect that's not what the letter is about. But are they talking about the mortgage backed security financial crisis? Like, oh, I wouldn't have lost all the money if it weren't for this massive economic downturn, which I should have calculated the risk of when managing people's money. I'm not a finance expert by any means, but there were a lot of interesting players in the market at that time. And like short sellers can put out reports that tank certain stocks or whatever, and they can, so to speak, manipulate the market in a way that is not always entirely fair or legit.

55:26But then usually when you're managing money, you have like risk diversified. You're not like, oh, I had everything, the AI sector. And then when this report came out that AI was a bunch of BS, it tanked all my investments. Okay, well, you were not doing your job correctly. Actually, it is a big part of the story, so you might want to hang on to that observation. Also, 2008 was a crazy time. It was crazy. He goes on. In the following months, he divorced my mom, married another woman, and moved with her and her two kids from Europe to South America. Neither he nor his new wife has had a stable source of income since, as they've been living primarily off of the rental income from an apartment my father bought before supposedly going bankrupt.

56:07Ever since then, my father has been determined to make it work in the financial markets, always looking for the next idea that would help him find an edge and earn back what he had lost. But it never worked. Instead, he only lost more of his own money and that of other people who believed in his new strategies, including my brother and me. Oh man, this is a tough story. I'm sorry to hear this. That's got to put a strain on your relationship. it. He tried to get a job at a bank once, but failed the final interview round and never attempted it again. The last 15 years have gone like this. Approximately once a year, my father gets a new idea for how to fix his life, coding a program for investors that would provide buy or sell signals based on a custom mix of indicators, selling food via food delivery apps, driving for Uber, just to name a few.

56:58He gets all excited about it, does his research, reads books, learns a new coding language, and then something happens that makes him abandon his plan. Sometimes it's some drama in the family, his new wife's children getting kicked out of school, his neighbors poisoning his cat, etc. Sometimes it's some shiny new project, like moving to a different part of the country or completing a spiritual program in a local religion. Sometimes the market conditions just change, making his idea irrelevant. This cycle has repeated itself countless times, each time diminishing his self-respect and strengthening his belief that everything he touches is doomed to fail.

57:37Wow, yeah, that's a tough cycle. I want to say so much more, but I'm biting my tongue. My father is a highly intelligent man, and he knows a lot about financial markets, so it's understandable that he's been trying to apply this knowledge to find an income source instead of looking for a low-paying job. But he's also not very in touch with his emotions. I think he never fully forgave himself for losing his client's money, and every failed project since has just added insult to injury. Sounds like it. That's so hard. The burden your dad must carry around. Very difficult. At the same time, from my perspective, he never truly took responsibility for getting his life back on track, constantly hiding behind distractions, ultimately leading to self-sabotage.

58:20I suggested therapy multiple times, even offering to pay for it, but he never took me up on that offer. So that's very telling, isn't it? Yeah, he doesn't want to look at this stuff, really, does he? Yeah, and it's too painful, or he doesn't think it's productive, maybe. However, something changed around his recent 62nd birthday. I think he's now realizing that he'll have to face the music soon, as his rental income is not sufficient to cover his expenses anymore. My brother and I have been covering the difference. He's also noticing some age-related health issues, so in his words, even if he wanted to, he wouldn't be able to do jobs that involve physical labor or even long periods of concentration anymore.

59:01On the one hand, it feels like he's finally accepting reality as it is, instead of deceiving himself into thinking that he only needs a couple more months to make his next idea work. On the other hand, I'm afraid that he's giving up and will just keep deteriorating with each passing year. As a son, I feel like I should believe in my father, even if he doesn't believe in himself. But all of my past experience, as well as money I have lost as a result, would indicate otherwise. Yeah, dude, this is so intense. But man, well said. You have a very good handle on all of this. What should I do? Should I encourage my dad to dust himself off and pursue his investment program idea knowing that he has a ton of unprocessed issues that will keep dragging him down?

59:44Should I encourage him to find a normal job knowing it would mean giving up on his hope of earning back what he lost and settling for a life of unfulfilled potential? How far should I go to help him? Should I buy him a car so he can earn money driving for Uber? Should I try to coach him myself? If he were an executive coaching client of mine, I'm sure I could help him, but it takes a huge toll on my energy, which I need for my own life and job. How and where do I draw a boundary here that doesn't drag my own life into my father's chaos. Sign supporting my begetter, who's always been a go-getter, in earning back this cheddar without becoming his abetter, in a scheme that could leave him a debtor, because he is still fettered by this ancient scarlet letter.

1:00:30Wow, nicely done. That sign-off more than made up for the iffy one on Q2. Thanks, I did some penance with that one. So I find this story quite fascinating, Gabe. I think is really fascinating. Yeah, there's a lot in here. It's also an interesting set of questions that he's asking. He is. Yeah, this is a tough one, though. Yeah, it's very tough. There's so much going on here. All right. Let's start by appreciating what a sad predicament your father is in and what a predicament he's put you and your brother in. What happened with him in the fund in 2008? That is tragic, especially if it's true that it wasn't his fault, losing millions of dollars from people that you presumably know and then losing your whole livelihood and your identity and probably your confidence and your mojo.

1:01:11That is really traumatizing. Not to get super dark here, but there's a reason you hear about people committing suicide after stuff like this. The pressure and the shame and the guilt is just like immense, right? And it destroyed his marriage, everything. So in a big way, I feel for your dad here, he's been through something really painful. And the fact that he's still around, he's still playing with new ideas, even though he's not being totally realistic, that alone is kind of impressive. And I'm happy that he's been able to survive this, that does say something about your dad. On the other hand, the way he survived this, it's interesting.

1:01:44It sounds like he's kept hanging on through some combination of repression and fantasy. Right. The pillars propping him up based on what he shared with us are basically, I don't want to feel the guilt and the shame and the vulnerability around what I did slash what happened to me. And I'm going to turn it all around with this next big idea. It's going to fix everything. He's perpetually running away from this painful past, but he's also perpetually running towards some fantastical future that never really arrives. Yeah, he's fleeing both, but spinning his wheels and never quite getting anywhere.

1:02:15That, I have to say, must be incredibly stressful to live with and scary. Can you imagine? I'm speculating a little bit, but I get the sense that his dad lives in basically a constant state of anxiety, embarrassment, frustration, and he's working very hard to stuff those feelings down or convert them into excitement and inspiration, but like in a very abstract way, if his refusal to go to therapy is any indication, of course. But until he's willing to go to therapy or at least go near this stuff with somebody. Until he's willing to go there, yeah, I don't think there's any meaningful way out of this predicament he's in.

1:02:47There's no healing, there's no learning. But growth aside, on a very practical level, I'm not sure he'd be able to extract whatever lessons he'd need to extract from that experience to be the kind of entrepreneur he imagines himself to be. That might be part of the fantasy too. Like if I can just launch this new product, I won't have to face all of that. I can just keep moving forward. Not an issue. Yeah, it sounds kind of like gambler's fallacy, right? Like, I just need to win this one and everything's right again. There's so much is riding on the next big idea. His safety, his power, his stability, his identity.

1:03:18And his exemption from this kind of work. His very sense of self, I would say. Which again, the way his dad is going about this, the way he's relating to his past and apparently making his predicament partly his kid's responsibility. I think it's unfair. I think it's misguided. It's a little gross to me, but I have some empathy for this guy because he's not totally equipped and he's terrified. And this must feel like the only way to get back to who he was. And to be fair, he's a smart cookie. Like he's not totally delusional. He actually is very bright, but he can't quite make it happen. That's true.

1:03:51So no, I definitely would not encourage your dad to dust himself off and pursue this investment program idea, knowing that he has a ton of unprocessed stuff that will just keep dragging him down. Not to mention a highly questionable track record. He lost more people's money, including you and your brothers. That was even more recently than the 2008 thing. So sorry, I'm being blunt here, but it does not sound like your dad is somebody that anybody should trust with their money. So I don't think you'd be doing him any favors by encouraging him. And I don't know if encouraging him would even make much of a difference.

1:04:23The only thing that's going to make a difference at this point is if your dad were willing to go back in order to move forward, if he were willing to talk about how his past is informing how he's living his life now, if he showed a genuine curiosity about this tricky pattern of his to get excited about an idea, then to lose steam or to get distracted or find some excuse to not follow through on it. I understand that must be really hard. Yeah, I think it probably feels fatal to him. That's the sense I got. But if he can't feel this stuff, talk about it with somebody, weave it into his strategy from now on, what is going to change?

1:04:56You can't avoid looking at the past and where you are in the present and then just magically hope for better results in the future. You can't make him do that work. He has to want to do that. And I'm not getting the sense that he does. Now, if he needs some kind of additional income, which it definitely sounds like he does, then yes, I would gently encourage him to find a normal job. And yeah, that probably means giving up on his hope of being an entrepreneur and earning back what he lost and settling for a life of unfulfilled potential. But given the facts here, I don't know if that's necessarily a bad thing because, and this is a very intense thing to acknowledge, but I think it's important for you and your brother to recognize it.

1:05:31He's not going to earn back what he lost at this point, not in terms of the dollars and cents, not in terms of the identity, certainly not with this approach at this stage of his life. It's also an interesting question whether his dad would be settling for a life of unfulfilled potential. I mean, I get why he's saying that because, like I just said, he's bright. He's really actually very clever, this guy, and apparently very knowledgeable about the markets. He's teaching himself how to code new languages, multiple languages. This is an impressive dude in a lot of ways. But what does potential mean when you get down to it?

1:06:03It's something I've been asking myself recently. If he really has the potential, then he needs to be able to capitalize on it and apply it in the world. That ability to make good on your potential is part of the potential. If he can't do that, then that potential might be less like untapped talent and more like a pipe dream. It's an interesting point. When is it untapped talent? And when is it just an idea in your head about who you are and what you deserve? That is a very intense question. You know what, this is exactly what I was talking about on last week's episode when I was describing some of the stuff that these travels have brought up, you know, like coming to terms with what you're actually capable of.

1:06:38The answer to the question you just asked can be very wounding. Yeah, and that wound, that's precisely what he's avoiding by indulging the fantasy and refusing to open up about this. Now, about buying him a car so he can earn money driving for Uber, I don't know, man. This is alarm fireworks going off around me here. On one hand, I want to say, sure, if that gives him a steady source of income, a system he can plug into and buying him a car is feasible for you, that could be a nice way to set him up. Why not? Although I don't know if you should do that yourself. That should be something you and your brother discuss together, maybe.

1:07:11On the other hand, if you guys are the ones going to him like, Dad, here's what you got to do. You got to drive for Uber. You're going to do it five days a week and you'll be good. I would definitely hit pause because you might be tempted to just give your dad the solution and shove him into this gig when you don't have any indication that he's going to follow through and stick with it. It is decidedly unglamorous. It's not as cool as starting a new program and dominating the financial market and making millions of dollars, okay? I could see him driving it for a month and giving up because he hates it or he thinks he's above it or he wants to focus on one of his entrepreneurial ideas.

1:07:43Yeah. And then he'll be in the exact same place, but like with a free Nissan Altima. Right. My fear is he sells the Altima to pay an engineer in freaking Slovakia to code a janky version of his app that will just never see the light of day. Now, if he comes to you and he goes, OK, I've given this a lot of thought. I've come to the conclusion that I can't make these ideas happen. And I've decided to drive for Uber. I'm going to make some money, have a reliable gig, but I need a car. That is a different story. OK, but even if you did this, I would buy the car yourself and let him borrow it or lease it to him for nothing or whatever.

1:08:18That way, if his plan falls apart, you can take it back or you can sell it. And that prevents your dad from selling it and going, well, it's a gift. You can't tell me what to do with it or some nonsense like that. But regardless, I would still advise you to proceed with caution. I would want you to have some real assurances that he would honor the agreement to keep the job. But man, that would be a different story. So the difference there is, is he living in the same reality as his sons, basically? Yeah, which means coming to terms with what he's actually capable of and what is actually possible at this point in his life.

1:08:50And I don't know if that's going to happen. It sounds like it might be possible as he's getting older, but it's also possible he will always cling on some level to the fantasy for the rest of his life. Gabe, I don't watch Shark Tank and I haven't for years, but you've seen the show, right? Of course. You remember those people that come in and they have light up buttons that go in your jeans that are really lame. And they're like, I have two mortgages on my house and I just need to get this over the finish line. And then everyone's like, oh my God. All the sharks are like, no, I've got to put this business out of its misery.

1:09:20Like they just choke slam that guy on the show because we're putting this thing out of its misery. We are giving you the real. were not fluffing you up like your entire family has done, like other people have done, giving you this false hope while still saying no in some ways. Like a bank gave you a loan, but they should not have done that. They should have said, this is a terrible idea, don't do it. You're right, it's so cringe, right? Because like Lori Greiner or somebody will turn to the girls he's with who are modeling the buttons and be like, would you wear this on a date? And they can just see the look on their face, like, sorry, Uncle Jim.

1:09:52Terrible. Yeah, and the guy's like just crushed, but it's like the lamest thing ever. this is kind of that situation, right? It's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to come up with this program and it's like, OK, you're not, though. That's not real. There are Silicon Valley companies that are trying to come up with this kind of stuff slash aren't trying because it's not a realistic thing to do. You're not going to figure this out while you're farting around at Chipotle on your laptop. It's not happening. Anyway, maybe he'll get more realistic as he gets older. I don't know. So until you really feel that he's acknowledging this stuff, I wouldn't be too eager to step in and save him.

1:10:27Certainly not at your own financial expense. I think the real theme of your letter, and it's such a rich question, is how to come to terms with a parent's limitations, right? And how to make sense of their psychology and how to love them without compromising yourself, which is a bit of a theme on today's episode. For sure. These are really big questions. We could talk forever about them. And they're so wrapped up also in your own feelings, I imagine, about your life and yourself and the world. This is your dad. This is the person who generally teaches you what it looks like to go out into the world and be effective and be powerful and risk failure and survive failure and make an impact.

1:11:04There's probably a whole other letter behind this letter about watching your dad go through all of this for so long has meant for you, has brought up for you. I just want to acknowledge that. But really, the bind you're in, I think it's summed up by this one line in your letter when you said, as a son, I feel like I should believe in my father, even if he doesn't believe in himself. Yeah, that kind of broke my heart. It's a devastating line. And I have to say, I'm very moved by it. There's so much in there about parents and children, especially about fathers and sons, I think. And what we owe our loved ones.

1:11:34But for our purposes today, I'll just say I would really sit with this assumption and see if it's true. Because to be honest, here's another tough pill to swallow. I'm not sure that you should believe in your father, even if he doesn't believe in himself. I think that's his job. I completely agree. I also think that it's his job to have a relationship with his goals and his talents that allows for this kind of doubt and adversity. In other words, for him to develop the capacity to bear the injury of struggling and to either learn from his failures and keep going in a new way or adjust his plans and his expectations accordingly.

1:12:09That's not just your dad's job, it's all of our jobs, but it's our job for ourselves. Nobody can do that for us. Yeah, it's not his job to prop up his dad. It's not. So one question is, is it really true that you should believe in him when he doesn't believe in himself? If all the evidence is pointing to the fact that he isn't capable of actually making these dreams a reality, then there's a good reason to not believe in him. or maybe another way to put it is the thing I would believe in is not necessarily your father's ability to become a hedge fund manager or a tech entrepreneur or whatever, but in his potential to face the music, as you put it, to step into a more honest understanding of himself and of the world and to take the best possible care of himself and act responsibly within his limitations so that you can accept him as that guy.

1:12:56I think it's likely that he'll never be the finance god he wants to be, but he might be able to become somebody better, which is himself, your dad, warts and all. That is something worth believing in. But maybe the even more helpful question for you is, if it does feel true that you should believe in your father when he doesn't believe in himself, why is that? Right. Well, I'm going to guess that withdrawing that belief in his dad, that would also be very hard for him in a very different way. I think so. That's a good point. I think he's already lost most of his confidence in his dad, which as you're saying, Gabe, that's probably appropriate, but there's still a part of him that feels obligated to keep supplying his dad with that confidence and that motivation, which might be more like inflating him when he deflates.

1:13:38And I think that what you're getting at is where does that responsibility come from? Because it must go back a long way. And what would happen if he put that responsibility down? The more we talk about this, the more I realize we're talking about two parallel griefs, right? his dad is contending with the grief of having lost millions of dollars, losing his career, his identity, his power, his standing, and this ongoing grief of not being able to reinvent himself. And like you said, he's avoiding that grief in a variety of ways. And our friend here is contending with the grief of accepting his father for who he is, in addition to the stress of needing to make sure that his old man is okay, which I completely understand.

1:14:17whether his father can really go through that grief, whether his father can come to terms with who he is, what he's capable of. Our friend and his brother might be able to play some supporting role in that, but that's largely not under their control. Whether our friend himself can go through his own grief around his dad, that is under his control. And as we come back to time and time again, I would spend more time attending to that process and working through the implications of it for you than trying to manage your father's. Could not agree more, Gabe. And so on that note, no, I probably wouldn't try to coach him yourself because it doesn't sound like he's really asking for that help or that he'd even know what to do with it.

1:14:57So here too, it might be worth considering whether the impulse to step in and coach him is a way of also propping him up, doing this work for him, maybe avoiding some work in yourself by trying to get him to change. The best thing you can do, in my view, and you're already onto this, is to love your father, support your father, accept your father without compromising yourself financially, emotionally, practically. And again, that is a process. It might require constant vigilance and assessment. But I think you're learning more and more what's a healthy and wise investment in your father and what isn't.

1:15:30So the next step is to embrace that and to enforce that while still showing your dad that you are there for him in the ways that are fair and that are actually helpful if he wants it. And sure, there might come a point where you and your brother need to step in and take care of him. He's truly on the brink of disaster. There's some grief and acceptance in that too, but I wouldn't bail him out prematurely. I wouldn't deprive him of the opportunity to step up and take care of himself. He's 62, he's not 92. He can still pivot to other options and hold down a job that'll keep a roof over his head.

1:16:01And maybe the best thing you can do is help him turn that corner. I'm sorry you're dealing with all this. I can only imagine how intense and sad it's got to be. But you're also handling this with so much thoughtfulness, so much insight, so much self-awareness. And I know that's going to lead you to the right stance with your dad. Sending you, your brother, your whole family a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out our double episode with Joe Loya and our Skeptical Sunday on near-death experiences if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network.

1:16:32It's the circle of people I know, like, and trust. You've heard me shill it before and I'll shill it again. 6minutenetworking.com. It's free. It's not schmoozy. And there's no shenanigans. I don't need your credit card number. It's on the Thinkific platform over at 6minutenetworking.com. Dig the well before you're thirsty, folks. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

1:17:01My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. Yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. So consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Joanna Tate. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, Happy New Year. I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you lots more here in 2026.

1:17:33What if the person charming your lonely aunt isn't after love, but her home, her will, and her life savings? In this preview, Javier Leyva reveals how modern romance scams have evolved into full-blown identity takeovers hiding in plain sight. A lot of con artists, they are very generous at first. They're the types of people that are going to pick up the tab when you go to dinner. They're buying you stuff. They're very generous. And they're doing that. It's almost like they're fattening you up for when they need that favor. When they need that favor, when they need that loan, you wouldn't question it because this guy is so generous.

1:18:07Why wouldn't I trust him with money? From a distance, we're thinking about these romance scams like, how could anybody fall for these things, right? But the closer you look into it and put yourself in the shoes of the victim, you realize that when you're in the center of the cyclone, it all makes a lot more sense. Another thing is when somebody smothers you and just consumes all of your time, that's a warning sign too because what they're doing is that they're cutting you off from your surroundings. They create the urgency so that you could make stupid decisions and you kind of bypass your reasoning.

1:18:44Don't forget your friends and don't forget your family. Their opinion counts and you should take it. Honestly, when you start seeing all these signs, you recognize that maybe this is a situation where you've got to create personal space. You have to create boundaries. Most victims of any con artist, they feel so ashamed that they don't want to tell their story because they've been violated. Their trust, and they're no longer trusting people. To hear how predators turn affection into control, listen to episode 1195 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. you