1271: Buzzing Teen Question Has Mom Second-Guessin' | Feedback Friday

22:26I don't want to be mean-spirited, but I do want to let her know, in no uncertain terms, that this is their decision. They are not going to change their minds. They are 1000 % comfortable with the decision to never see or speak to her again. But I'm really struggling to come up with a message that is somewhat compassionate, but also leaves no doubt. How would you put this? Signed, hoping I don't make a gaffe when I tell this woman that she's a nightmare and a half. Boy, what a piece of work. I'm so curious how our friend here became the one point of contact for this woman after everything she did.

23:01She's not even his blood relative. All the rest of her family already cut her off. I don't know how he ended up here. That is interesting. We don't know how that happened. I mean, 40 years of marriage, at some point it's kind of like it's all family, right? Maybe everyone else is like, we don't want to do it. Can you please do it? Or he volunteered because he often takes on those responsibilities, goes out of his way to be the diplomat, like sending her money on her birthday and refinancing her condo after she did a lot of crazy stuff. That is interesting. I wish we had a little bit more information about all this.

23:26He's either stepping up and representing the family appropriately, or he might have a way of taking on way more than he has to or picking up the slack for everyone else or wanting to be the good guy. Yeah, maybe he has his reasons. Just an interesting pattern in this letter. Anyway, I'm really sorry your sister-in-law is this way. All of this is super weird. It's hurtful. It's very uncomfortable for everyone. Honestly, everything you're describing sounds like legit mental illness. Some combination of entitlement and narcissism and a profound lack of self-awareness. I have to imagine enabled by her father, the one who died, and probably a number of other people along the way.

23:59Yeah, this is a problem person. I have a very distant relative who is like this. She regularly turns on people, whips herself up into a frenzy. She'll call people, yell at them. She'll write five, 10-page letters detailing all the ways that they've upset her, let her down, what they need to do to make things right. But then she'll beg people to visit her. She'll bribe family members to like move back to her town so they can be closer. And one by one, they're all having to cut her off or put a lot of distance between them and her, which is what she fears the most, ironically. And she has no idea that she's making them do that.

24:31It's so sad. So sad. There are some truly unhinged people out here who aren't like lock this person up in a psych ward crazy. But yeah, they're nuts. It's wild. So obviously this isn't someone you can have a healthy relationship with. And I guess I commend you for having the courage to communicate this to her. So the way I'd frame this is something like, listen, Marsha, I'm calling to share something with you. It might be a little hard to hear. My intention is not to be cruel or hurt your feelings in any way. I'm just here to relay some information. As you know, a number of people in our family have found their interactions with you very challenging.

25:03I know you have your reasons for reaching out to them. I understand you want to be closer with the family, but the way you've gone about that, calling my daughter's friends, distant relatives, speaking poorly about us, It actually made it harder for everyone to be close. Impossible, really, because the way you're talking to us, the way you're behaving, I don't think you intend it, but it's actually driving all of us away. And it's actually gotten to the point now that my daughter, your brother, my wife, we all feel that it is unsustainable to have any relationship with you. It gives me no pleasure to tell you that.

25:32I wish it weren't this way, but there it is. So I'm calling to let you know that just so you understand why we are where we are and why we cannot talk anymore. Nice. Hard message, but yeah, I like that. It's short. It's sweet. Or the opposite of sweet, I guess. Keep it focused on the information. Don't raise your voice. Don't use this call to make your case or engage with her deeply about any of this. I'm talking about a three-minute phone call. That's what I mean here. And if she pushes back, maybe you say, look, I'm not here to get into all this. I know this is really difficult. I'm sorry about that, but I'm just here to tell you where we stand.

26:02Literally. I wouldn't say anything more than that. Based on what you've shared, your sister-in-law, look, she is not looking for meaningful conflict to resolve here. She is almost certainly going to lash out, try to guilt you or manipulate you and defend herself. There's zero point to that. Do not get involved in that. So that family member I just told you about, her children and her grandchildren had to have a version of this conversation with her and it did not go well. It didn't go well from the standpoint of she didn't say, oh my God, I've driven everyone away. Maybe I'm in the wrong here.

26:30It did go well from the standpoint of, look, we've told you what the problem is. We've given you the information. Now it's up to you to decide if you want to consider things. I see. Okay, so it actually did go well, right? She just didn't react well. But who cares at this point? It's over. I think our friend here knows that he's not trying to change Marsha at this point. Yeah, it's just about not being totally cruel by ghosting her with zero explanation, even though the reason is clearly more than obvious. To literally anybody who's not mentally ill, yeah. Gabe, I'm just thinking about how weird it must have been for our friend here's daughter's friends to get a call from this woman being like, this is Daniela's Aunt Marsha?

27:08Her parents are neglecting me and they're bad people. Tell Daniela to tell her mommy to call her sister. While they're sitting there listening to this loony tune they've never met in their life, scream at them on a speakerphone. Yeah, from the pool at the Ritz-Carlton. Yeah, literally. Your mother's driving me into poverty. Excuse me, can we get another round of$18 margaritas? Yeah, poverty, I said. Like, okay, we'll pass along the message, I guess. It's so ridiculous. How do you even respond to that? Anyway, half the battle is delivering this message. The other half is enforcing the boundary.

27:38So you might want to get on the same page with your family, decide how you guys want to handle her from here on out, because I am sure Marsha's going to continue to call and text and email you guys, and it would help if you guys are clear and consistent in your response, which it sounds like is silence, basically, which to me sounds perfectly appropriate. Unless she re-approaches you with a very different attitude, but I think that's extremely unlikely. Yeah, not going to happen. If she does, I would be worried that she's trying to manipulate you again, but if she really came to you with a new attitude, maybe years later, sure, you can hear her out carefully.

28:11Call me when you get on medication and you've been in therapy for a year or three, Marsha. Until then, enjoy that 2.6 % interest rate I locked in for you before you turned on me. You're welcome. Exactly. Very sorry you have to deliver this message. It's not an easy one, but man, is it gonna feel good to not deal with this bullcrap anymore? But your sister-in-law, she's made it a lot easier to deliver this message by being so out of line. So be firm, stay strong, stay connected to your compassion. She's obviously in a lot of pain. But yeah, I think it's going to be a lot easier from here on out.

28:41Wishing you, your wife, your daughter, and everyone normal in your family a huge hug and wishing you all the best. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're struggling to manage a creepy and manipulative peer in your professional group, you've just learned your wife is secretly an escort, or your father has abandoned your mother with dementia and remarried a new woman in the eyes of God in a matter of weeks. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

29:09We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, come check out our newsletter, Wee Bit Wiser. Bite-sized gem from us to you delivered right to your inbox on most Wednesdays. If you want to keep up with the wisdom of the show, I invite you to come check it out. It's a two-minute read every week. You can sign up at jordanharbinger.com slash news. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I've been married for three and a half years and genuinely love my husband. I can be completely myself with him, and our relationship has survived seven moves in five years, job changes, the purchase of a house, the subsequent financial loss when selling it, and living semi-on-the-road in a trailer.

29:48We finally found an area we want to call home and are both ready to put down roots and stop moving. But since deciding to settle down, our relationship has changed. We never directly talked about having kids and starting a family, but I was upfront about wanting kids and I thought he was on the fence. Hold up, that's a little confusing. They never directly talked about having kids. She was upfront about having them. And she understood or assumed that he was on the fence. So they did talk about it directly? I don't know what's happening here. That's what it sounds like to me. Maybe she means that they didn't have fully open and honest communication around this topic, but how does that happen before you get married?

30:23This is very surprising to me. They're married for three and a half years. They've been through all this huge stuff together. Wait, so hold on. They're in an RV driving for like 13 hours at a time. How do you not directly talk about whether or not you want to start a family? At this point, you have played Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon for hundreds of hours. What else is there to talk about? I'm not sure, but I think it's safe to say that something is not quite lining up between them here. So she goes on. We would be irritated by some children in public and enjoy our freedom, but we would also sometimes mention teaching kids our hobbies, like hockey and skiing.

30:59Okay, so they haven't talked directly about it, but they are talking about their hypothetical children? Maybe it's more hypothetical for him than it is for her. I don't know. Maybe that's their way of talking, sort of implying things. Filling gaps, hoping the other person's going to read between the lines. Yeah, not a great strategy. I had my second abortion last spring. I knew we were not in a healthy place to bring a child into the world. We were living in a campground cabin for a month and had no idea what our next living arrangement would be. That's a difficult experience, I'm sure, but it sounds like you had some good reasons.

31:32The experience this second time told me that the first was likely a miscarriage, as this time I felt pregnant. What? I don't know, man. I'm just reading the letter. The second time told me the first time was likely a miscarriage, but it wasn't a miscarriage. She terminated the pregnancy. I'm assuming she means that she thinks the pregnancy didn't take before the abortion. That's the only thing that makes sense. Okay. I know women intuitively feel all sorts of things, but I'm not sure that feeling pregnant the second time means you weren't pregnant the first time. It could also be like a timing thing.

32:02I told him that there would be no more abortions. This one was hard enough. Since then, I've been more careful with our contraceptives. Well, good. That's, I think that's wise. I don't know if the reality of that statement hit him at the time. Is she referring to the no more abortions thing or this abortion was really hard on me? Unclear, but once again, we are confused and they are not entirely on the same page. Something about the way they communicate does not fully land all the time. And then they keep chugging along without making sure that the other person is on the same page. Now that we're in an area that meets our combined needs, I am ready to start planning our future, seriously save for a house and prepare to start a family.

32:41I'm 30 and unfortunately aware that the older I get, the riskier a pregnancy will be. While I would love to take a life break for a bit after a hectic several years, I don't want to sit around while the ability to start a family slips away. Plus, I enjoy thinking about my future and having something to work towards. But my husband was taken aback when I brought up children and our household has been uncomfortable since. Once again, so confused, dude. I learned that he doesn't have a vision for his future and definitely would prefer to avoid this difficult conversation. Well, clearly. Clearly. So I'm starting to get the sense that your husband does not want kids and he doesn't have the heart to tell you.

33:20So he just played along slash stayed quiet when you brought this up, hoping it would magically go away. Which is not cool. Interesting that she's saying he doesn't have a vision for his future because that's different from having a vision for his future that does not include children. So the problem is obviously bigger than just the kids thing. But the kids thing is a huge part of their future. And it's a huge thing that that's gone unresolved. After a week of trying to have a healthy conversation with him, encouraging him to try journaling, leaving room for open communication, asking open-ended questions, and even signing up for couples therapy, the week ended with no solution.

33:55He felt that I signed up for therapy behind his back and his schedule is now conveniently too full to make space for therapy. So I canceled it. Money is tight and it was out of pocket. I told him that he needs to think about this topic seriously. I need to know if he wants kids and if he doesn't, why? I told him that I accept if he doesn't, but there's a difference between fearing parenthood and genuinely not wanting that lifestyle. The former would benefit from conversation and therapy. The latter is a final life choice. I also told him that I fear him giving me an answer to appease me and end the conversation, only for him to wake up in 10 years resentful about where his life is and seeing his children as hindrances to the lifestyle he wants, leaving me in a position that I would call being a married single mother.

34:42I told him that I would drop the conversation until after the holidays. We were visiting family and he could digest what I shared over a few months. Now I'm struggling to feel motivated to sustain the marriage. I get frustrated more easily, am starting to see more things that make me wonder if we're a good match as life partners, and keep daydreaming about idealized new relationships. I wonder if I was naive to marry a man who outright told me he didn't believe in marriage, and if I ignored his reluctance to help around the house. He used the excuse of a demanding work schedule and our constant moving.

35:18Huge new piece of information. Yes, multiple. She's painted her husband as avoidant and squirrely. But now she's saying he outright told me he didn't believe in marriage. So at least on one huge question, he was very explicit with her. So he might not be totally open with her, but it sounds like she has also failed to take him at his word and played along to some degree. Yes. And to her credit, she's now starting to acknowledge that. But then why get married? And how do you do that? So then we're back to his stuff and he's saying, I don't want this. And she's saying some version of, okay, maybe you don't.

35:51Or maybe she's like, I'm gonna pretend I didn't hear that. La, look, I changed your mind on getting married. Maybe I'll change your mind on kids. Some version of that. And then he's like, all right, I'll go along with it and keep my mouth shut because it's too scary to tell her what I actually want. I don't want to rock the boat. I got hockey practice, bye. This is very stressful. This dynamic is a recipe for disaster. But I think she knows that now. I also think that the moving around a lot and the financial and logistical insecurity probably gave them a reason to not talk about a lot of this stuff because they were just trying to survive day to day.

36:20But now that they found a town, they want to settle down again. Suddenly it's like, okay, we're stable enough to now acknowledge all of these other things that we had good reasons to avoid up until now. So she goes on. Also, we never lived in an area where we could each pursue our preferred lifestyles. Now that we've settled in a larger town, I'm happy to see my husband pursue his hobbies like hockey, going to the gym, going out with coworkers and playing video games with friends. But now my vision of my preferred life feels more distant. I'm left working a full-time remote job, pursuing a master's degree, managing the household finances, and doing all the cooking and most of the house chores.

36:58I enjoy being a traditional wife, but only if there's some shared responsibility. When I started my master's program a year ago, he agreed he would help out more, but that didn't happen. I don't believe in soulmates or the idea that there was only one person out there for everyone. I also believe that marriage is tough and walking away isn't the best answer. But I want a life partner who feels like a partner and envisions a future together, including raising a family. Yeah, I don't think it's crazy to want a life partner who wants the same things and shares the same values. Just stating the obvious.

37:32I also don't think it's crazy to consider whether that person might not be your life partner if they just can't get there with you. So she wraps up. How do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be and stay patient while my husband does some serious soul searching? And what if he says he wants kids and I'm now questioning whether I want his kids? Signed, navigating my fate when I and my mate are not on the same page about wanting to procreate. First of all, I'm very sorry you've been struggling with all this. You've been through a lot here, my friend. All this moving, the financial stress, two abortions, a master's program, running a house, working on your marriage, figuring out your needs and goals and identity.

38:11I mean, my goodness, this is very intense. I'm exhausted just hearing about it. There's a lot of sadness and anxiety in this letter. I'm very sorry about that too. But look, these conflicts are in with your husband. I think you can tell I'm frustrated with how he's communicated with you, how he's shown up in your marriage. And that was before the not pitching in around the house stuff. But these really do sound like conflicts you end up in with somebody who's simply not compatible with you. But like we also just said, you're now seeing more clearly, you did participate in this dynamic by discounting or ignoring certain facts.

38:43He didn't say, I don't believe in marriage and you married him. He at least hinted he was on the fence about kids when you wanted them, which I agree is not the best way to communicate his stance, but it did give you some important data about how he felt and you stayed in the marriage, assuming you guys were moving towards the same future when it sounds like there weren't very many indications that that That was true. I also have to point out, I don't mean to be finger-waggy here, but I think it needs to be said. You presumably had unprotected sex many times with somebody who you weren't sure you wanted to have kids with, and even if he did want to have kids, it sounds like you did that before you guys were truly in a place to start a family and consciously made that decision together.

39:20So again, I don't mean to sound judgy. I don't mean to sound lectur-y at all here. I just find that fairly reckless. And then you paid the price, and I'm sure it wasn't fun for him either by having two abortions, one of which was really hard on you. I mean, I don't have to explain that to you. You explained it to us. I'm sure you've already learned a big lesson from all that. I'm not trying to pile on. But in the interest of being totally fair here, I'm coming down hard on your husband, but you had a big role in all this too. And you don't need me to tell you that the stakes here when it comes to bringing a child into this world, it just doesn't get much higher than that.

39:48So we rarely come right out and tell people what to do, but given the facts here, I gotta say, I don't have high hopes for the marriage. It doesn't sound like this is your person for life. It doesn't sound like this is the father of your children, not the one you want anyway, you guys are fundamentally misaligned on some very huge dimensions. And I just don't know what you're supposed to do about that. You're also misaligned in your communication. But as we keep saying, you're participating in that dynamic. He might be hiding the ball a lot of the time and acquiescing here and there to keep you happy.

40:18That is absolutely on him. But you have also allowed him to do that until very recently anyway, by not pressing the issue, by not appropriately holding his feet to the fire, by not going, look, I don't know where you stand on this topic. I need to fully understand you. Please speak your mind, even if you're worried that it might hurt my feelings. It was only recently that you started holding him to account and not ending the conversation until you have a clear answer, which should have happened a long time before you guys got married, but I'm sure shows up in so many ways in so many conversations, both big and small.

40:49I also wonder if her fantasizing about these idealized new relationships, and we don't know what she means. Are they abstract idealized new relationships or is she like thinking about people she knows unclear, but in addition to being a sign that she's kind of disconnected from her husband and might in fact already be moving on in some way. And also maybe it's a way to enjoy some freedom in a situation where I imagine she feels quite trapped a lot of the time. I wonder if that mental flight is also part of what you're describing, Jordan. That could also be an example of this avoidance and also like a kind of dissociation from the facts, there's a flight of fancy here that would also move her further away from these uncomfortable conversations.

41:30Yeah, I could see that. I think there's probably a lot happening in that daydreaming. So could you guys work on that communication on your own or in therapy? Sure. Would it help? Maybe in the sense that hopefully you guys would step into more honesty and understand each other better. But I think what you're ultimately going to get clarity on is the fact that you guys just aren't compatible. And I know that it's like, how am I making that judgment so quickly? Look, I'm not telling you break up with him, but I'm almost telling you that. I'm saying, I just don't understand how this is the person for you or how you're the person for him.

41:59And so how can that relationship succeed? Well, the only way that it succeeds is if he wants to go to therapy and then is doing a ton of work on his own and with her to work through his hesitation around having children or his conflicts around partnership. If that's something he actually wants to work on, I don't get the sense that he does. You mean the guy who didn't even want to go to therapy at all one time? That guy? Exactly. Yeah. So I'm totally with you. I think you're also saying to her though, you're not the person you were earlier in this marriage, right? You're avoiding less. You're seeing things more clearly.

42:30You're becoming more responsible. You're wanting to have these tough, but crucial conversations. I think that's part of why you're more easily frustrated now because you're not sweeping as much under the rug or looking the other way. So how can you as this newer person with new needs and new capacities stay in this relationship if he isn't also evolving in that direction? For sure. But again, even if he does meet her there, I'm just not sure that's going to fix their real problems. I find it curious that she's asking, how do I stay motivated to be the wife I want to be? How do I stay patient while my husband does the soul searching?

43:02This is not a question about staying motivated. So two interesting things about that statement. First, I agree. If she has to stay motivated to be the wife she wants to be, then clearly there's a deeper problem here. This is not a diet. It's not a gym routine. This is her marriage. This is her life. Yeah, these new feelings she's describing, you know, again, getting more frustrated, seeing things that make her wonder if they're a good match, even the daydreaming again. Sounds like she's viewing those as personal failures somehow or things that she needs to overcome through patience, through sheer will, instead of symptoms of a problem that needs to be addressed.

43:36A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I also think she should consider what it means to be the wife she wants to be. It sounds like she has a concept of what a good wife is. She mentioned that she enjoyed being a traditional wife, and that is totally fine. But it sounds like coming to terms with the reality of her marriage is making it hard for her to live up to that concept in her mind. So what does it actually mean to be the wife you want to be? Does it mean staying in an unhappy marriage? Does it mean not speaking up when something is difficult for you? Does it mean not asking for help around the house when you're pursuing your master's degree?

44:08What does that mean exactly? You know what's interesting about this is she's like, I don't mind being a traditional wife. And I'm like, wait, you're getting a master's degree. you have a full-time job from home, and you take care of the house. Not entirely traditional. No, what that sounds like to me is you're being a traditional wife, and you have a second income, and he plays video games and hockey when he comes home from work. So you're just doing everything other than his job, which is one of many issues that they gotta deal with. She either needs to reconsider that idea of what a good wife is, or that idea is just not working with this particular partner, and my gut is probably both.

44:40So look, if you guys go through this process and your husband's like, you know what? I've worked through all these things. I do want kids. And you're like, oh, I'm not sure I want your kids. First of all, I get the feeling that's pretty unlikely. It just sounds like he doesn't want kids. He doesn't want to talk about whether he wants kids or not. But if somehow he decides he does, well, given his history of caving and not speaking up in order to keep you happy, I would want to be very sure that he has actually changed his mind. But even if he does, that doesn't solve any of the other problems that they have.

45:09No, so the fact that you're questioning whether you want to have kids with him is absolutely appropriate and wise, and I would listen to that feeling. I have been unusually blunt with you. I don't think this is your guy, and given his personality and his goals or lack of goals and how you guys are relating, I would not have children with this person, unless you guys go through a profound process that A, leads to both of you growing in some big ways and radically changes his vision for his future in a way that aligns with yours. If you guys aren't aligned, you're not aligned. That's okay. He's not wrong for not wanting marriage or children.

45:41You're not wrong for wanting a life partner and kids. The only thing that's wrong is trying to make an impossible relationship work, especially as you get into your 30s, because you're right. Time is ticking. The stakes are high. And yeah, I know that's stressful, but it is super important to recognize. Thank you for sharing so much with us. Thank you for letting us be honest with you, sending you a big hug, and wishing you all the best. All right, and now we want to knock you up with some highly feckin' deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back.

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48:52It's so hard not to say home every single time. And when I say in-depth information, I'm talking deep. Each listing features comprehensive information about the neighborhood, complete with a video guide. They also have details about local schools with test scores, state rankings, student-teacher ratio. They even have an agent directory with the sales history of each agent. So when it comes to finding a home, not just a house, this is everything you need to know all in one place, homes.com. We've done your homework. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

49:27To learn more and get links to all the deals you hear on the show, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If that doesn't work, email us jordan at jordanharbinger.com. We're happy to dig up codes for you. Thank you for supporting those who support the show. It does keep us going and makes it possible to continue creating these episodes week after week. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, time for the recommendation of the week. I'm addicted to lip filler. All right, my recommendation for the week is an app called Flighty. This is one of the best apps I've ever used. It's a flight tracker.

49:57You basically get an email that says, hey, your Delta flight is booked. You email it to Flighty. It tracks the plane, whether it's on time, what baggage claim to go to, all your seat information. It is incredible. And it'll tell you, your flight is usually 30 minutes late on average from the airport it comes in on to this airport, yada, yada. I've had this app and I've been at airports where nobody knows what gate it's changed to. It's not on the board. The flight staff at the desk don't know, but it's in my Flighty app first. I checked into a random flight in an airport in Argentina, and the gate agent, she had no idea what gate it was leaving from.

50:34And she's like, well, you gotta wait for the board sometimes. Flighty was like, it's gate A. She's like, oh, that sounds right. We leave from there sometimes. Just an amazing app. I'm a big fan. It'll show you the weather patterns. You get a push notification that's like, you're taxiing for 18 minutes. You're taking off five minutes late. You're gonna arrive 12 minutes early. Like, it's just absolutely nuts. You'll step off the plane, it'll be like, baggage claim A. Meanwhile, everybody is just waiting to find out, or it changes and you'll get a push notification for that too. It's really good.

50:59It's way better than any individual airline's app and it works well with all of them. So I highly recommend it. Again, it's called Flighty. All right, next up. Well, speaking of airplanes, we got some very passionate responses to our rant on our end of year episode about people who keep the airplane window shades open when the cabin is supposed to stay dark. That was episode 1262, by the way. So we wanted to share a few of them with you and talk about this because this has kicked off a weirdly interesting debate among you guys about what is okay and what is not okay to do on an airplane. Yes. And by the way, even though I've been banned from Reddit.

51:32Yeah. Hashtag, what is it? Muppet? Muppet gate? Yep. Hashtag justice for Jordan. I'm just saying. Thank you. I appreciate the solidarity. Anyway, I'm still lurking in the subreddit. I still love hanging out there. I see the funniest stuff in there, you guys. Reddit.com slash r slash Jordan Harbinger is our subreddit. Still a great place to chime in on episodes. You can tell us what you like, what you did not like, which you guys really seem to enjoy doing. You can share other opinions on questions we take. I always try to forward the links to the people who write in so that they can get as many angles as possible.

52:01So you're not just shouting into the void or talking with eight other people who are interested in this topic. You are really actually often helping the people who write in. And I'm the moderator now, as you guys know, Jordan sadly is in Reddit jail. And I also am loving reading your takes. By the way, Jordan, is this like a life sentence or what? Theoretically, yeah. Ban for life. I'm in the Reddit equivalent of a prison in El Salvador. Can you appeal or is there a Reddit Supreme Court you could take this to or something? No, apparently not. For the cardinal sin of calling an apologist for North Korea a Muppet, I've been put on internet death row, which is hilarious.

52:34I'm so sorry, dude. Time to get some prison tats though. Maybe the Reddit symbol on your back. Lydia-ing it up and putting dummies in their place on Reddit was one of my favorite guilty pleasures, I guess you would say. Now I'm just that weirdo standing a hundred yards from the action looking through binoculars. Yeah, like the guy who runs the gas station where they should not shop for a sex toy. Or actually, you know what that reminds me of? You're like Leo at the end of Catch Me If You Can. Do you remember the scene where he's standing in the snow, staring into his mother's house, like watching her new family have Christmas together, wishing he could be in there?

53:02Literally. I never thought I'd become Frank Abagnale of Reddit. Wow. So the first take was in the subreddit from Redditor Monkey Matty2, who writes, the airplane window rant on this episode of Feedback Friday was a little obnoxious. Is this something that people actually care about? Yep. Got to stop you right there, Monkey Maddie. Yes, this is something people actually care about. Boy, do I have a podcast for you, Monkey Maddie. I love that she heard us go apeshit about people who do this in her first sentences. Is this something people actually care about? Nah, we were just pretending to be angry about this because we don't have enough to talk about here on this show.

53:34Yeah, we didn't have enough dues that week. We got to invent petty Larry David complaints to fill the time. Yeah, we care about it. Some of us like to sleep on 14-hour overnight flights. I have a four-year-old and a two-year-old, and we just recently went on our first international family vacation This was a trip that we saved up for four years to be able to afford And it really was a once-in-a-lifetime thing for us My kids were both obsessed with being on an airplane and kept the window up the whole time just Awestruck I also went on an 80th birthday trip with my grandma and she was very similar And took probably over a hundred pictures of the clouds out of her window Man, she's bringing grandma into this.

54:11She's gonna make me throw granny under the bus us is not fair, man. It's not fair. We don't get to fly very frequently, so it does have a little bit of whimsy to it. I purposely booked the window seat for the views, and I've also noticed that it helps with motion sickness. That's interesting. I never heard of that. Do people really care if someone else's window is up during a flight? Again. I think we've established this. Don't mean to jump the gun, Gabe, but the fact that it's just so incomprehensible to her that other people might feel differently about this, I hate to say it, but she's making our point.

54:41You mean like the window people don't realize that other people might not like it. Yes, this is precisely the solipsism that we're talking about. Oh, solipsism. Nice. Yeah, I think you probably taught me that one. It sounds like me. Old$5 word when a 50 cent word would do Mizrahi. That's me, baby. Old Gaby dictionaries. But that's what this is, right? This is solipsistic. I want to keep my window open when everybody is sleeping at night. Do people actually care about this? It only matters what I care about. Hey, man, you're preaching to the choir. But to be fair, let's hear her out because she's not alone in this, actually.

55:10So she goes on. If you are that sensitive to light, bring an eye mask. Am I missing something here? I would say yes, the fact that other people exist and feel differently. Just that little detail. Yes, just that little fact. Also, it's not that we are so sensitive to light. It is that any human is sensitive to light that they did not ask for at night. It just seems like for two guys who it seems like they try to be very understanding and accepting, this was kind of a wild and pointless rant. I take umbrage at that, madame. Yeah, umbridge indeed. Jordan is on his SAT vocab today. I'm loving this.

55:44Yes, and I would add she's being very insouciant. Insouciant. That's one of those words I always forget. Like, I think I know what it means, but I'm actually not sure. Indifferent. Because it's showing a casual lack of concern. Okay. Well, perfect. That's it. And that's the post also. Fascinating. Now, I'm going to be solipsistic for a moment. I honestly didn't think there would be that many people who felt differently about this. Yeah, but clearly there are because this debate is still raging today in the subreddit. Look, maybe I'm a selfish Muppet. Maybe the mods are right. You might be the Muppet.

56:13So then we got this email from a listener. Regarding your and Gabriel's tirade on airplane etiquette, first, you both drove me crazy referring to open window shades as opening windows for f*** sake. Really? You're going to be quick and quibble with the phrasing? You don't open the window at 30 ,000 feet. You open the window shade. Get it right, guys. Yep. Okay, sorry. Everybody knew what we meant? Literally everyone? I can see Jordan's getting angry again. This is what happens when I can't call people Muppets on the internet. I can't discharge the rage. It comes out on Feedback Friday. Maybe you can work that into your pitch to the Reddit Supreme Court to be reinstated.

56:47Like, unbanning me is what's best for society. Yeah, it's a public service, really. So the letter goes on. Second, I always have my shade open because I'm claustrophobic. Looking around me at all the closed shades frightens the hell out of me. I can't really argue with that, can I? I can't argue with claustrophobia. I can't argue with motion sickness. Because somebody else in the subreddit today mentioned they're deathly afraid of flying and the windows help. So, okay, I hear that. I really do. That didn't occur to me. And I would rather people not want to die on the plane. Even if it's dark outside, that open shade means that I won't lose it while we're in the air.

57:20You're welcome. I'm well, I'm no, you're welcome. Actually, that's how this works. Third, since when are other people responsible for your comfort? Ah, I could ask the same question in the other direction, couldn't I? Since when are other people responsible for yours? by sacrificing their sleep on an overnight flight so you don't get nauseous? We're doing this as a favor for you. That's how this is going. Since when are you exempt from considering the comfort of everybody else on the floor? This is why I'm struggling to understand this logic. It's like, no, you don't get it. I get motion sickness.

57:51Okay, yeah, that's a problem. I have sympathy for that. That doesn't trump everyone else's need to sleep. But this is what these people don't understand. It's crazy. She goes on, I don't go around insisting the shades be open because of my claustrophobia. Ah, but that's not the same thing, is it? You don't need every shade open to feel okay. Whereas a number of people in your area on the plane do need the shades closed in order to sleep and or watch a movie at night in peace. They're not the same thing. She wraps up. You want total darkness? Wear a f***ing eye mask. This has been a public service announcement.

58:23Signed, feeling the need to upbraid and throw some shade on your need to not open the shades. Which, by the way, is different from opening them all the way. The confusion about which has left me irate when I already pray that it's not my fate to end up your unfortunate seatmate. Oh, boy, this is going to be hard. All right. I'm putting away the anger. Deep breathing. Putting back on my logic cap. No more bannable insults. Okay. So first things first, you're both wrong. No, I'm kidding. Not really. Well, look, I'm not convinced, but seriously, first things first, if you have a legit medical problem, motion sickness, claustrophobia, I guess you get a pass.

58:56I don't want somebody having like vomiting issues or like panic attacks. Right. And then they divert the plane because somebody's free. No. And that kind of makes me feel bad because how would you know if somebody who's leaving their window shade open has a legit medical reason. Like we might be judging people who just need it to be okay. I've asked people to close the shades before, as you know. And if I asked someone to close the shade and they were like, I'm really sorry, but I'm going to freak out if I don't keep this open. I'm not going to be like, sorry, you got to think about everyone else.

59:20I'm not a monster, despite what my Reddit history suggests. But I have to imagine that most people who keep the window shade open, are you happy? I assume most of them don't have a real medical issue. And also, hey, maybe pop a Xanax for your anxiety disorder. That's what you have. If you have to keep this open or you have panic attacks and lose your mind. Thank you for that. Now I got to read 18 emails from people who are going to say that you're forcing them to take pills because you want to take a nap. That's my problem now. Sorry, Gabe. That is your job. First line of defense for the hate mail.

59:48Share for the subreddit. Volunteer positions, both of them. Also, I just want to remind everyone, this window shade rant, we were only talking about long haul flights where people are going to be sleeping and the sun is going to be out the whole time. I don't care if people keep the window shades open on a flight from Charleston to Miami or whatever. I'm not trying to be a window Nazi, like for fun, just to be difficult. No, I think people are conveniently forgetting that or they didn't listen carefully. The pilot or the flight attendant literally comes on the PA and says, keep the window shades closed.

1:00:16We're flying for 12 hours. People are going to sleep. That's why this is a thing. It's a rule. And that said, look, kids, you get a little bit of a pass up to a point. I do agree with that. Yeah. I'm not going to yell at a four-year-old for wanting to look out the window on their first plane ride. I'm not a total dick. I might silently get frustrated, but yeah. It helps if they're actually enjoying the view, not just opening it because they like a little light and then forgot, which is like the guy on your flight who opened it and then was like, I'm going to go to sleep now. Open the shade and then fell asleep.

1:00:43So he wasn't even enjoying the view. That's what I don't understand. Even the people who are like the worst haters of me right now for this take, even they got to admit that that's dumb and rude. It also, by the way, helps if the person is nice. Being nice goes a long way in my book. For sure. If I said something to the first listener and she nicely explained that our kids are having their first international flight and they wanted to enjoy the view, I'd be like, okay, I hear you. Hey, if you don't mind, can you close it in a bit when they're not looking out the window just so everybody else can rest?

1:01:07That is totally different from the meat smuggler on my flight from China. Alleged meat smuggler. Alleged meat smuggler because I framed him because I was the Muppet back then. But that guy was an a-hole. If you're cool, I'm cool, or at least cooler. But okay, let's say that if you book the window seat, you do control the window shade, which is what a lot of people are arguing, and that's just how it is. Fine. Can you enjoy it during takeoff and landing? Can you enjoy it for 20 minutes here and there? Take your 600 pictures of clouds that I promise you, you will never look at again. And then can you close it?

1:01:39Like, it's not the Mona Lisa. It's clouds or ocean or fields or whatever over and over again. Do you need to stare at them for six hours at three in the morning while everyone's trying to sleep? I don't think so. Again, though, I'm a parent. I get it. Kids get a pass with these things. And despite my general tone, and our friend here's rather insouciant one, I might add, I'm sure you and your family are very nice people. I understand your kids have an opportunity to enjoy the miracle of flight. I'm with it. Of course. Now I feel like a dick for being mad at children. But don't they also have an opportunity to learn that they are not flying private?

1:02:09Yeah, that they're sharing the flight. Yeah, there's a reason I tell my son not to yell and scream on the plane. Because we're not the only ones there. They want to look out the window and other people want to do other things. Like get home not brutally exhausted. or watch uncut gems at 30 ,000 feet without the glare of a thousand suns ruining the picture. That's another thing. The person in the second letter is bring an eye mask, which like, fine, that's helpful, but. And I do always bring mine, but that's not really the point, is it? No, this isn't just about people sleeping, watching a movie, reading a book, or even just having a conversation in a dark cabin.

1:02:41All of those also get disrupted when one person opens their window shade. It's very jarring. As evidenced by the photo somebody posted in our subreddit today of a perfectly dark cabin and a stabbing pin of light ruining the entire cabin from one person's window. It's so jarring and suddenly 17 people in the area are forced to endure a freaking generational eclipse. So it's missing the point to say it's your fault for not bringing an eye mask. I have one. It's just that it's not going to block all the light and everyone else has to bring one so that you can look out the window. Like everyone else has to prepare for you to not follow the rules.

1:03:13So this is really what this debate is about for me. How to negotiate the balance between one's own interests and those of other people when you're in public. Yes, the eternal question. The eternal question. Look, I concede that booking the window seat grants you a certain privilege, but at a minimum, you have to admit that the enjoyment of that privilege has an impact on everyone else. When almost every other passenger is sleeping or watching a movie, especially on a long haul flight, one passenger's whimsical window experience is a pretty clear impingement on everyone else. Like it's not just me.

1:03:44I've seen other people get angry about it. In all the cases we are referring to with our take here, it violates the explicit request of the flight staff on the flight. Right. So are we saying that one of the privileges of buying a window seat is that it exempts you from being thoughtful about other people and respectful of the rules? I feel like if you took that argument to its logical conclusion, it's I booked the window seat, so I'm allowed to do whatever makes me happy, even if it bothers everyone else. Open a can of tuna while you're at it. Have some lunch. Good analogy, which that is what some of these folks are saying, right?

1:04:13Someone in the comments said, and I quote, the way I see it with most airlines, I paid extra for that window seat. The window is mine to control. That's what I paid extra for. So if that's how you view it, I guess we can't argue with you. I just don't look at life that way. I try to be considerate. Yeah, I guess you're exempt from that. I have another analogy. I always book an aisle seat because I have long legs, right? I like to get up. I like to stretch a lot during the flight. I don't like being boxed in. That's what I like, which means I often have to get up to let the people in the middle seat and the window seat out, right?

1:04:42Sometimes they even wake me up when I'm sleeping to go do that. That's unpleasant, but I don't get angry about it. I'm not saying like, well, I bought the aisle seat and I paid extra for it. So my use of the aisle is all that matters. And everybody else can go fly a kite because that's not the case. We're all sharing the flight and we're all equally real. So why should it be any different for the window seat people? Interesting argument. I feel like the people who wrote in would say that's not a true analogy because window does not equal aisle. They're different privileges or something. They're going to find a way to carve themselves out of this.

1:05:12They're different privileges, but they're equivalent in that they both confer unique benefits that are important to the person who's enjoying them, that you pay extra for. And the way that you enjoy them has an impact on everybody else. And those people do not have much of a say in how you enjoy them. Good point. Can't really argue with that. But look, I appreciate that you're pointing out that we are generally pretty understanding people. And then we eviscerated these window shade people. And I hear that. If we were being more compassionate, I might have said, OK, this guy wasn't malicious. he was just clueless, and he doesn't deserve our hatred, just our gentle criticism.

1:05:43For all we know, he'd feel bad about ruining everyone's sleep, and that's a fair point. It is a fair point, but I would also argue that we were not being unempathetic. We were directing our empathy to everybody else in that situation, i.e. the many other people this guy affected with his thoughtlessness. But then the loop I get stuck in is, I honestly can't decide whether unselfaware people deserve to be let off the hook. Because yeah, how can you be held accountable for something you weren't even aware of, but then being self-aware in this very basic way. It's also just part of being a decent human being.

1:06:14I fully agree. At a certain point, you just have to acknowledge the unfortunate fact that you are not the only person who exists in economy class. But then the people who wrote in would say, exactly, we exist too, so why should we have to give up our thing for everyone else? I think what we're saying is you don't have to entirely give it up. Can you just factor other people in? Like, you get a little window time and I get my sleep Like, that's all we're saying. Another analogy just occurred to me. If you're on the subway and somebody starts blasting their Bluetooth speaker and you ask them not to and they're like, hey, look, sorry, I have a sensory disorder or I'm autistic or I can't wear headphones.

1:06:46The sensation bothers me. I need music to self-regulate. So they blast their speaker on the subway or at a restaurant. And their argument is, why am I responsible for other people's comfort? Just wear earplugs or wear your own AirPods if you don't like it. Yes, your autism or sensory disorder or whatever it is, is real. Of course, I understand that. But you're not the only other person on the flight. Our thing is also real. And your fulfillment of your need, your enjoyment of your benefit, that has a negative externality for everyone else. Multiple other people. Yes. There are more of us. So like it or not, you got to adapt unless you just don't care about anybody but yourself.

1:07:21I totally agree. I also understand that a true disability does change the situation, though. Well, OK. Yes and no. I understand some people on the spectrum, for example, have certain unique needs or triggers. just like our friends who have claustrophobia, motion sickness, fear of flying, but they also have to function in a world with many more people who do not have those triggers. So I think most people would agree that it is unreasonable to impose the requirements of those needs on everyone else, even if we sometimes make certain accommodations for them. And that's for people who have a true condition or disorder.

1:07:52Why should it be different for people who just have a preference? It's like, ah, I wanna look at the clouds, screw you. Dude, excellent point, well said. I guess our opponents here on this issue would say, because that preference is not only legit, but also explicitly part of the experience of the service we paid for. Okay. So just to take your analogy one step further, if you're at a public park and there is a group blasting their shitty music or whatever, and it's bothering everybody else, they could say, sorry, I pay my taxes. I'm allowed to blast my music at the park. Okay. You might be allowed to blast your music, but a, that doesn't mean that it isn't incredibly annoying to everybody else.

1:08:24And B, I also pay my taxes and I want to enjoy silence. So why does your noise trump my silence. Exactly. And your music isn't confined to your picnic basket, just like the light from your window is not confined to your seat. Just if you open tuna, that smell is not confined to your area. So yeah, if I were in the minority here, I would play by these same rules myself, happily. Also, this just occurred to me, part of what grinds my gears about this is that keeping the cabin dark and opening a window shade are not actually equivalent. They serve very different purposes. Keeping the cabin dark on a long-haul flight allows the majority of people on the flight to do whatever they want in the dark, except look out the window, of course.

1:09:03Whereas opening a window shade allows the minority of people, sometimes just one person, to do one thing specifically that only benefits them and also detracts from the majority's ability to do their thing. So keeping the cabin dark on a long-haul flight when it's sunny out, it is actually the fairer thing to do, both from like a utilitarian standpoint and also from a democratic one, because it's not prescribing a particular experience. Do you see what I'm saying? It's allowing for multiple ones. And I'm sure we could all agree that that is the more just scenario, even if you enjoy the view. I see that philosophy degree is coming in handy, Gabe.

1:09:37That's all I have to say on this matter. I'm done. I think I'm also probably going to be, well, no, I'm not. We can argue this until the cows come home. And I guess you can go around and around in circles. But to close out, I want to read just one more post in our subreddit that made me laugh. So January 477 writes, Dear Jordan and Gabe, adding a new level of annoyance with people keeping the shade open on a plane. Last week, I was on a flight. It was a short flight. Probably nobody was trying to sleep much, but only one shade was open to the Florida sunset. What made this one special? The lady in the seat was wearing a rhinestone cowboy hat, creating a disco ball effect in the cabin for the entire two hours to Pennsylvania.

1:10:11I had no idea this was an annoyance of mine. Still love you, but thanks for that. This made me laugh so hard. Also, yinz. I had never heard of that. Me neither. So I had to look it up. Apparently, yinz is slang from Western Pennsylvania. So like Pittsburghese. It's basically their version of y 'all. Anyway, so ridiculous. That would be fun, right? Because it's like you're during a day. It's two hours. Who cares? You got a rhinestone effect. I honestly don't know if the rhinestone cowboy hat makes this better or worse. I mean, on the one hand, worse, right? Because not only has she opened the window, but she's basically turned the entire plane into a lava lamp, kaleidoscope or whatever.

1:10:43Yeah, this lady's basically the magnifying glass lighting the rest of the passenger hands on fire, but... On the other hand, if you're gonna do it, you know... I mean, way to create a vibe, I guess. Exactly, and give you a funny story. And it was during the day, so it sounds like it was inconsequential. I can't wait for all the hate mail we're gonna receive for going hard in the paint on this one, which means all the hate mail Gabe's gonna have to deal with. Yet another impingement. We did not ask for this, guys, okay? We are just truth tellers, you understand? People get fired up about it. Look, you think we're fired up.

1:11:08There are people in Reddit that are like, I'm unsubscribing because of how entitled you are about the window shade thing. and it's okay. See you later. Somebody called us, what was it? Like entitled boomers, which is just actually inaccurate. It's like, I'm not going to listen to you for a while. And it's like, are you sure? Cause that's a little, that's a little unhinged. I hope he's hearing this right now being like, I guess I didn't. I might've jumped the gun on that one. Yeah. Now we love you. We hope you come back to the show, but for real, dude, chill out and we should do the same. But maybe this is better than being on Reddit, man, over there.

1:11:34I get punished for saying the true thing right now. I don't, you know, kind of just can go off. interesting because i don't know it violates the explicit rules and affects other people look at that what a concept facts and i have to accept them because i'm a reasonable human being most of the time go back and check out our episode with jamie mustard and our out of the loop on venezuela if you haven't heard those yet the best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network the circle of people i know like and trust i'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our course six minute networking it's a free course i don't need your credit card number it's not schmoozy it's not awkward you can find it on the thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com.

1:12:09The drills really take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff 20 years ago. Dig the well before you get thirsty, people. Build relationships before you need them. You can find it all at sixminutenetworking.com. Advertisers, discounts, ways to support the show on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn. You can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Tadis Adlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi.

1:12:39Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Dr. Baggett's input is general psychological information based on research and clinical experience. It's intended to be general and informational in nature. It does not represent or indicate an established clinical or professional relationship with those inquiring for guidance. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

1:13:06In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Ken Burns, who says the real American Revolution wasn't a clean break from Britain, but a messy, violent civil war whose contradictions we are still debugging 250 years later. A good story neutralizes the binary yes and no, you know, you're bad, left, right, young, old, rich, poor, whatever the dialectic is you're involved in. A good story can sort of neutralize it and go, oh, wow, I didn't know that. There's no test. We'd share with you our process of discovery.

1:13:43So all the stuff I've said about the revolution, I had no idea going in. and I am so overwhelmed with the joy of acquiring it that giving it away feels even better. The ideas are really, really powerful at the heart of this. The idea that you could be a citizen, that you could have a say in your government after your family has worked the land for a thousand years for somebody else and all of a sudden you come here and you own some land and farm and you can do this and you're literate. Democracy is a really messy form of government but it's better than all the other forms because the other forms involve a kind of tyranny of authoritarian certainty.

1:14:22Democracy is messy because you actually have to listen to people that you disagree with, and you have to compromise. When that breaks down, then you lose the possibility of having it. America comes out of violence. It's born in violence. What would you guys do? What would I do? Would I be a loyalist? Would I be a patriot? What would I be willing to fight for? What would I be willing to give my life and all that I've accumulated in my life, my fortune, would I do that? We mutually pledge to each other our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor. For more on what else we've been getting wrong about our own origin story, check out episode 1238 with Ken Burns.

1:14:59This episode forces you to confront the version of America you didn't learn in school.