1281: Can Your Love Be Blind to Her Conspiracy Mind? | Feedback Friday

23:34And frequently, the point he's making doesn't really add any value to the discussion. Oh man, that's a real problem. I feel bad for this guy, but yeah, definitely something he needs to know about. It sounds very annoying as well. The impact of this is far, far worse in a public meeting or when addressing a citizen committee. We rarely give him defined speaking roles in these situations, but the meetings are often casual enough that different staff members can chime in to emphasize a point or to add context. Oh, I know. Oh boy. Okay. When Joe does it, it is always cringeworthy. Often he's piping up to restate something that was just said, but with fits and starts, and you can see members of the public or committee simply go cold.

24:16Another thing I've noticed is that in more intimate team settings, like when I'm giving him instructions to carry out a task, he eagerly interjects as I'm speaking, trying to finish my sentences to show how he gets it, which he often doesn't, or interjecting with irrelevant examples, all showing that he's thinking more about what he can say in the interaction than listening to the direction I'm giving. Oh, this is so annoying. Even hearing about it is annoying. So that's coming from wanting to look good in front of you guys and wanting to prove his worth and wanting to be taken seriously. All of which he is clearly is doing the opposite.

24:49Right. But this is so common, especially with younger employees. And it's probably slash might be something he can just nip in the bud. I hope the poor oral communication skills are holding him back significantly. He's applied for several promotions and been passed over for all of them. and it kills my supervisor to be unable to promote him. Well, that's interesting. Why does it kill his supervisor? Yeah, I'm puzzled. He's just not ready to rise up, right? He's not a leader yet. What's the problem? Why is that so hard on the supervisor? Or am I just, am I robot Jordan who's like, hey, if you were compassionate, this would be hard on me?

25:22No, I think, I mean, unless he means that they want him to rise up because they like him, but they can't because he's a liability and that's just stressful for them. I guess, I mean, but then coach him or let him go. why is the supervisor agonizing over not being able to promote him if he's not promotable? Again, maybe I just need like an ounce of compassion here more than I already have. I'm getting a sense that they're just tiptoeing around this guy and they're avoiding giving him really important feedback. And then they complain openly about him. And that is not going to fix this problem. All of this is extra interesting, given that the supervisor is apparently such a great mentor and has supported and coached them all so generously.

26:00But when it comes to this guy, It sounds like she doesn't quite know what to do. Anyway, he goes on. She's recommended that he take a course in public speaking, but didn't provide a specific course to plug into, and he hasn't pursued this. Because that's not real feedback. Joe doesn't realize what a problem this is, right? He's not motivated to fix it. This supervisor was kind of like, oh, go take a Dale Carnegie course, hoping that that's going to fix it. But someone needs to sit this kid down and have a real talk about how he's showing up at work and how he views his role in this place. I was recently on an interview panel for his most recent promotion application where he performed very poorly, with nerves overlaid on his generally awkward speaking pattern.

26:38Having interviewed him gives me a unique opportunity to provide him some constructive feedback. Great. Good. Now we're talking. I know I can deliver it in a way that's helpful and affirming, but I'm worried that his confidence is already going to be dinged by still not landing a promotion after so many tries. I don't want to further undermine his confidence to the point that he loses his comfort around speaking up at all. I hear that, but I think it's also possible that he'll just be bruised enough in the best way to be receptive to this feedback. Finally. I totally agree. Now he can't deny the results and there's a pattern of being passed over.

27:12So he might be primed to take this in. And then you're coming along and going, Hey, you want to know why you're not rising up? This is why. I think he has to be willing to rattle Joe a little bit, right? He can't protect him anymore. No, 100 % correct. Our friend here, he's not going to be a dick about it. He's not looking for ways to cut Joe down even more or like flex his power over him or whatever. He's just saying, hey, you need to hear this. That is necessary. And that's honestly, it's part of his job. But more than that, I wonder if the two of you have any specific actionable resources I could recommend for him.

27:47There is a course at our local community college on oral communication that I'm going to recommend. And our supervisor would support his taking time to take it during the workday. I've looked for storytelling classes in our area, but haven't found anything. And I don't think improv is what he needs as he shows no nervousness about speaking up. That's the problem. Yeah. Are there online or other resources you're aware of that I should recommend? Maybe ones that would teach the fundamentals of structuring spoken word? Signed, try to abide and be a good ally to a wide eyed underling who's hopelessly tongue tied.

28:20Man, tough situation. It can be really hard to manage somebody who has a massive blind spot like this. Because on one hand, you're watching this kid put his foot in his mouth and trip over his you know what left and right. And you're like, OK, someone's got to tell him. On the other hand, it is super awkward to have to point something so painfully obvious out to somebody else, because if they're doing this and they don't realize how problematic it is, then your feedback might be quite jarring. And that's a daunting task. Yeah, totally. He's saying, I don't want to ding his confidence, but I think he might also be saying, I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm going to feel cruel or guilty for throwing this guy for a loop and hurting his feelings.

29:00Right. And that might be why he's going, is there just some course at the learning annex I can send this guy to for an improv Olympics or something like that? Make it someone else's problem. That's right. Because that's easier than having a real conversation with the guy. So as you can tell, well, I don't think that's the solution here. Joe's problem is deeper than technique or some style or skills. This guy doesn't need to learn to yes and or understand what makes a great story arc or whatever. He needs to understand that his whole way of communicating, his understanding of why and when to communicate at all, is completely off.

29:36He needs to learn that part of being a good communicator is reading the room, understanding what people actually need from him before he opens his mouth. and he needs to understand that talking is not a smart way to look good and be perceived as effective and important and useful. He needs to understand that what he's doing is actually doing the opposite. Yeah. He needs to be taught that these public situations are not opportunities for his own enhancement. Yes, exactly. That could be a nice secondary effect if he does his job well, but this is not his politicking time. Yes. He's there to add value and serve other people's needs first and foremost, not to hear himself talk.

30:09I feel like this is an employee you kind gonna have to take down to the studs and then rebuild. It's not someone who just needs some tweaks here and there. Zip, zap, zap at the UCB is not gonna do it for him. That's right. It's so funny, zip, zap, zap. I love that game, by the way. It's an improv game for people who don't know what we're talking about. You do a lot of fun stuff in improv, and it is good for getting people to come out of their shell. Joe is not in his shell. He likes hearing himself talk, and he thinks he's doing a good job and is a disaster. The whole motivation for talking is the problem here.

30:39Anyway, as wounding as it can be to be taken down to the studs, as you said, these are the kind of talks you need to get when you're young. And I think everyone who's successful has gotten a few around that age, especially. Dude, I definitely got a few. When I worked at my first job out of college, there were a couple moments when I did a Joe-like thing. And I'm grateful for my managers for saying, hey, just so you know, that's not what's needed in that moment. Yes. Got it. These types of talks are what made me realize that corporate was just not going to work for me or especially certain corporate environments where people were really had really fragile egos and a lot of power.

31:13Because I remember people telling me to like, so it's funny because we handled a letter like this last week, but it was like tone down your personality. Don't try to have a sense of humor at work, things like that. This is a British law firm. Surprise, surprise, right? They did not like anybody with personality. Oh, this is the one where they got mad at you in the elevator for saying BS on the cufflink. So that was actually the same firm, but in New York. And then when I was in the UK, yes, good memory, I got in trouble and a talking to on Monday because I went in the elevator and a partner, like a senior partner, said something like, oh, what are your plans for the weekend?

31:44And I was like, oh, I'll probably go to the pub and maybe go to see the London Eye and the, I don't know, Natural History Museum. And I said, what about you? And he's like, oh, I've got a fishing cabin. And then apparently he immediately emailed somebody and was like, that young man had the temerity to ask my weekend plans after I asked him his plans. And I was like, what? So when they talked to me, they were like, did you ask Mr. Crawford what his weekend plans were? And I was like, yeah. And they were like, why? And I said, because he asked me my weekend plans. And they were like, that man has worked very hard to get where he is.

32:13And I was like, I'm still at a loss to why I did anything wrong. And to this day, I'm kind of like, nah, bro, that's a you problem. He was reading something into it that did not exist. What, that you were suggesting that he wasn't working hard enough? I think it was just like, he's allowed to ask me what I'm doing. And I'm not allowed to ask what he's doing because it's inappropriate for me to be informal with somebody like that, even if they're informal with you, which to this day, I'm kind of like, nope, you're weird if you do that. And I don't you cannot change my mind. You're being weird. Not me.

32:44That's absurd. Ridiculous. So that was why I was like, I can't work at Linklater's. It's this British law firm. It's kind of a cool. There's cool people there. Don't get me wrong. But I was like, this corporate culture does not jive with me. And then when I worked in new york, I went to a different firm and I was like, okay Don't make these same mistakes and I remember the partners. They were like, hey Who's got the fucking pizza and I was like, no, no, this is my place. This is my place. I get it here My people it all sort of added up to me being like, you know what this whole corporate thing This is going to be a weight on my shoulders if I can't be myself And so I created a job where i'm myself all the time and it works Yeah, but joe's problem is different joe's problem is that he needs this lecture.

33:21It's appropriate He does. And him being himself is the problem here, too. Is the problem, yeah. This isn't asking a partner what he's going to do in the elevator. This is him wasting everyone's time in a meeting because he wants to hear himself talk. It's a different and bigger problem. So I definitely feel it's time for a very direct, very supportive conversation with him about your observations. And the way I'd frame this is, hey, listen, Joe, I've been working with you for a while now. I've seen you shine in a lot of ways. you learn quick, you have a great attitude, you ask good questions, you handle internal stuff like a champ.

33:53I'm impressed and grateful for all of that. I've also had the opportunity to see what kind of leader and speaker you're shaping up to be, both on the job and on the last interview panel. And I want to bring your attention to a few things that I think are holding you back. Dude, really nice start. Love this. Perfect. And then I would just tell him about some of these moments. I mean, he probably already knows, right? The effect that his agenda and style are having on other people, on the vibe and success of those meetings, how other people see him. I would definitely mention that thing about restating stuff that was already said, the thing about interjecting when you're speaking, chiming in unnecessarily, finishing your sentences to show how he gets it and that he often doesn't get it.

34:35I would literally say the sense I'm getting is that you really want to show us that you're on top of it, that you're ahead of things, that you don't need to be managed. And I appreciate that. But the reality is that sometimes you don't get it. I often see you thinking more about what you can say than actually listening when your job in those moments is to understand, take notes, and execute. And then you might want to wrap up with something like, I know this might be hard feedback to take in, but I hope you can see that I'm sharing it with you because I genuinely want you to succeed here. I know you're frustrated about not getting a promotion.

35:06And if a promotion is what you want, then this is what you need to work on. And if you crack it, you're going to go far. That's perfect, dude. No notes. This conversation could honestly change this guy's life. Listen, that's all I'd say at first. Let him take that in. Let him respond. My hope is that he thanks you for this and he asks a few questions and he goes off and thinks about it and he makes some changes. If he doesn't respond well or if your words don't seem to really land with him, then I would back off. But that would be good information for you and your supervisor, too. Yeah. If he's truly promotable, then he is going to listen to this feedback.

35:38If he doesn't, then he doesn't actually want to be a good partner to them and learn learning and rise up. Yeah. So that's my take. I think 80 % or more of this problem is going to be solved by him radically shifting his lens and his attitude. And if he works on this and he gets better, then you can help him look into a course. Exactly. Best not put the cart before the course, you know? Yeah. Foundation first, then sign him up for Toastmasters. I'm curious to know if some of the challenges that seem to be more about technical skills, like talking and fits and starts and filler words and being nervous, I wonder if those will also be resolved by this bigger conversation or if there is a technical aspect to his problem.

36:14Well, my theory is that it will. He's probably sputtering and flailing and starting and stopping because he's nervous and confused and self-conscious. OK, because on some level he knows he shouldn't be talking, but he can't help himself. And he's like, I need to say something so that people know that I'm smart and paying attention. If you just have a regular question, you just ask that question. But if you're like, how do I turn this into a speech on the fly and you're not good at that, which nobody really is for good reason, then, yeah, you're going to have a problem. So I think if he just shuts up, he won't have to worry about his performance because he's not performing anymore.

36:45That's a really good point because he probably looks around and he sees people zoning out or going cold. Yes. But then he keeps going, hoping he can like win them back over or prove that he should be talking. And that just makes him more confused, more anxious. And since he's not really connected to the audience and what they need, it's making it really hard to even stay on message. So just racking focus back to the audience might clear most of that up. There's a lot of podcasters that ramble. I mean, I'm sure I do it, too, sometimes. But they'll ramble and I'm thinking, why are you still talking?

37:13And the reason is because they're just thinking about their performance on mic. They're not thinking about what the audience needs. So if you're going to be a good host, you need to mercilessly cut things that the audience doesn't need that are self-serving. But look, if this kid still struggles, he might need some additional training. That's great. Hope he finds it. If he doesn't improve at all, he might not be the kind of guy who should be doing any public speaking at all. And that's okay too. But I do think he should know about this. I think he deserves a real shot. and he's lucky to have a boss like you.

37:40I'm actually excited to hear how this goes. Good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier. If you're toiling away for a grade A Machiavellian narcissist, your business partner has used your criminal past to push you out of the company you started, or you're panicking that your brother-in-law is moving your sister and their kids to a cabin in the middle of nowhere to murder them, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

38:10By the way, if you haven't signed up yet, our newsletter, We Bit Wiser, it's a lot of fun. It's a bite-sized gem from a past episode from us to you. It's in your inbox most Wednesdays. It's a two-minute read. Wisdom from the episodes, wisdom from our lives, wisdom from Feedback Friday, mistakes other people have made that we've all learned from. JordanHarbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Okay, what's next? Hey guys, I'll start with a quick update from Feedback Friday episode 808. My wife wrote in after I had been rejected from the FBI. Then last December, I accepted a position with the IRS.

38:41I completed my federal law enforcement training and am now a special agent with the IRS Criminal Investigation Division. That sounds awesome. I'm glad we're reading this letter. I was excited about this one, Gabe. So this was an interesting letter, this earlier one. It was his dream to work at the FBI. His wife really wanted to support him after that setback. It was really sweet. It was sweet. If I recall correctly, I think we talked about some good ways to support a partner after they go through a disappointment and just like how to recover from rejection in general. Keep going. Stuff like that.

39:11And apparently it paid off. Super happy to hear you landed on your feet, man. This is great news. It's funny how this stuff happens. You know, when when God closes the door, he opens opens an audit. That's right. He opens an audit. He opens an investigation. He makes you show receipts for that meal at the Sizzler. That's eleven hundred dollars. I know I know people think of the IRS as this super boring functional agency, but obviously it is a very important agency. The Criminal Investigation Division has got to be kind of interesting. I mean, you're basically doing police work, building cases, but financial ones, and that sounds pretty cool, actually.

39:45You guys recently took a letter from a guy whose ex-committed PPP idol, that's Economic Injury Disaster Loan, and other COVID relief fraud during the pandemic, and I wanted to share some additional information with you. The FBI is actually not the correct agency to contact about PPP loan fraud, And federal prosecutors don't like cases that are very complex unless an investigator they have a relationship with is bringing it to them. That's super interesting. It also makes a lot of sense. Also, weirdly great plug for Six Minute Networking. Better text your DA buddies on the regular or you won't get to slap cuffs on a perp who made up employees to buy a frickin' G-Wagon.

40:22You know the spiel. It's 100 % free. It's not gross. It's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. Okay, relationships, man, they are everything, everywhere, and every industry. The IRS Criminal Investigation Division is handling most PPP loan fraud cases due to their complex financial nature and because they often intersect with employee tax evasion schemes. If that listener wants to seek a legal remedy, he should reach out to his local IRS Criminal Investigation office. The fake financials that his ex used to secure the loan could be used to start a tax evasion case because she probably didn't put that on her tax returns.

40:59Great point. So money, no pun intended. Yeah, I bet she didn't report her fake everything on her tax returns. She just cashed the checks. In the FBI's defense, a lot of the offices are short-staffed after the administration change and fired all agents who had anything to do with the January 6th cases. Rest assured, Jordan, PPP loan fraud is being investigated, but it mostly isn't by the FBI. The statute of limitations for those cases was increased to 10 years, So we have time to catch them. My office has a$3 million PPP loan case going to trial this month. And the IRS criminal investigation division has a 94 % conviction rate.

41:36Oh, that's great to know. Damn, that's a high conviction rate. That is some like North Korea level conviction. I mean, not quite, but man, I'm guessing once it's giving red scare, it's giving CCP. Yeah, it's that's a high conviction rate, man. I'm guessing once the government has proof that you stole funds and you're going to court, you are basically totally screwed. You are done. Oh, and aggravated identity theft using a stolen identity in the commission of a felony? That carries a mandatory two-year sentence for each stolen ID. Every fake employee the ex made up will carry a two-year sentence if she's convicted.

42:11Wow. Based on that story, there were at least three fake employees, so that would be six years on top of the base crime. Her ex won't be seeing the sun till he's an adult, and the IRS has forfeiture power so that high-end home she bought and renovated can be seized. If you have any further questions that involve financial crimes, feel free to reach out. Signed, the taxman taking an ax man to these lowlifes and transactions. It should be transactions. Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't want to go full T-Pain on that Wisconsin. What's that line in that T-Pain song? Oh God, I don't know. I have a mansion in Wisconsin or whatever.

42:48Where are we in this sign off? transactions. It's not just an infraction for which the feds lose their attraction. We're getting traction with the subtractions, which gives me a great deal of satisfaction. Nicely done, Gabe. This letter has given me a great deal of satisfaction, too, because y 'all know I have a raging justice boner for this stuff. I find people who steal government funds. That's my money. It's our tax money. I find these people absolutely despicable. We all foot the bill for their gross selfishness. And they always buy the dumbest stuff to like five cameras for their vacation.

43:21It never goes into an IRA, does it? Yes. God, I was so glad to learn that there's a division whose sole purpose is taking these turds down and just flushing them. So not much to add here. We just wanted to feature this one because we still get a decent amount of letters about whether people should report COVID fraud or they know their neighbor did this and that. I was happy to hear that these cases are still being taken seriously. So if anyone listening ever wants to report someone who stole government funds. Now you know the right department. You can find a list of field offices by region on the IRS website, which we'll link in the show notes.

43:52Congrats again on the new job, my friend. Way to roll with the punches. I'm sure you're doing excellent work, work that matters to all of us. Thank you for your service and keep up the great work. You know what you don't need to steal millions of dollars in government funds in order to enjoy? The fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is also sponsored in part by BetterHelp. Sometimes February makes it look like everyone else has their love life totally dialed in, and no matter where you are, married, dating, single, it can mess with your head. But in reality, nobody's got it all figured out, even the people who look like they got it all together.

44:26And yes, that includes me. Shocking, I know. And yes, that's where therapy can be really useful. It's a way to get clear on what you actually want, what's been feeling heavy, and how to take some pressure off yourself, whether you're working on a relationship, recovering from one, or just trying to stop replaying the same unhealthy patterns. That's why I use and recommend BetterHelp. BetterHelp therapists work according to a strict code of conduct. They're fully licensed in the U.S. Just fill out a short questionnaire so they can pair you with somebody who fits your needs. They've been doing this for 12-plus years, and their match fulfillment rate is industry-leading, so they usually get it right one of the first few times.

44:55And if not, you can switch therapists anytime from their tailored recommendations. Sign up and get 10 % off at BetterHelp.com slash Jordan. That's BetterHelp.com slash Jordan. This episode is sponsored in part by Northwest Registered Agent. As a small business owner, I can tell you it's really easy to underestimate how much paperwork comes with getting a business off the ground. The behind-the-scenes documents that actually keep you legit. That's why I like Northwest Registered Agent. They make it easy to build your complete business identity. Operating agreements, meeting minutes, compliance paperwork, all the unsexy but critical stuff.

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45:57Don't wait. Protect your privacy, build your brand, and get your complete business identity in just 10 clicks and 10 minutes. Visit northwestregisteredagent.com slash jordanfree and start building something amazing. Get more with Northwest Registered Agent at northwestregisteredagent.com slash jordanfree. This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audiobooks a week prepping for the show. And let's be real, there is just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all. Audio is my mode. I'm listening on Audible while I'm getting my 10 ,000 steps in, sipping coffee on the couch, all while jotting notes down into my phone.

46:32Honestly, I wish I'd had Audible back in the day instead of zoning out to hours of mindless TV. Imagine how much smarter I could have turned out. Listening on Audible feels like downloading knowledge straight into my head. Lately, I've been into Michael Aaron Flicker and Richard Schottens Hacking the Human Mind, super fascinating stuff on influence, decision-making, what actually drives people. And Audible's well-being collection goes way beyond that. Brene Brown, Jamie Oliver on nutrition, even nature sleep sounds from the sleeping world. Whatever supports your mindset, health, or daily routine, Audible has it.

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47:32We'll dig up that code for you. It really is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lip filler. So a friend of mine's father recently passed away, and she and her siblings have been dealing with all of the admin when a parent passes away, settling the estate, selling the house, and handling insurance and all of that stuff. And her father had a will. The will was very clear. Everything was in order. This percentage to this sibling, this percentage to that sibling. you know, all of that pretty standard.

48:04When they started distributing any remaining money from his accounts, they learned that their dad had not updated the beneficiary forms at all of his banks since he went through a divorce and he went through a bunch of life changes and the family had changed since then. So like one bank account didn't have one and then another account listed his ex-wife as the beneficiary, even though that didn't really reflect the will and she might or might not play ball on dispersing the funds properly. So now they can't do what the will clearly stipulated just from a bureaucratic point of view, and it's becoming a huge headache, and it's probably going to be fine in the end, but it's just way more complicated than it should be.

48:39So what I've learned from her and my recommendation of the week is how important it is to make sure that all of your beneficiary forms are filled out up to date and talking to your parents about making sure that theirs are all squared away before it becomes a problem. Some accounts that you have don't even require you to fill one out, weirdly enough, so sometimes you don't even realize that nobody is listed as the beneficiary, which could mean that the assets go into probate, which as you probably know is a huge nightmare, often a huge waste of money. So this is super easy. It takes like five minutes.

49:10Oftentimes you can fill out these beneficiary forms online. You can do it through your institution's website or you can call them and they'll just walk you through it. I'm doing this myself. I asked my parents to make sure they did it. It's nice to know all of that is squared away. Just a few minutes of you and your family's time now could just save a ton of stress and regret later on. So I wanted to share that with you. Yeah, solid record. My parents did this as well. Recently, they just sort of went over everything. A friend of mine, his dad died and it was a mess. He had like multiple mortgages and all these bills and he wasn't sharing them with anybody.

49:41So months after his dad passed away, they would get another thing that was like, hey, you're still on the hook for financing this furnace. And what are you talking about? You know, it was over and over and over. And it was a huge headache and a massive source of regret. And I guess he was also hiding things like he didn't want anybody to know that he didn't have his whatever set up. So it was like such a pain. Yeah, get this done. It'll save your kids or whoever else a ton of time, a ton of headache. It saves a ton of money. So there's a little bit of a different kind of recommendation, but I like throwing in some life pro tips like this here and there.

50:11And on a related note, I'll just say if you don't have a will and or trust, you need to get on that. There's no excuse not to have one in this day and age. It's insanely easy to set up. You can do it online with a real lawyer, by the way. Don't just do like a form. Get a real attorney. We happen to have a sponsor for this right now. Trust and Will. They make estate planning really easy. Most people complete everything in about 15 minutes, which is as long as it's simple. And that's amazingly fast, by the way. You can go to trustandwill.com slash Jordan for 10 % off customized legal documents. If you've been sleeping on this, this is your reminder.

50:41This just happens to match Gabe's tip, which is cool. I hope you all don't mind. But you need to do this. By the way, I had one will, Gabe. and then we had kids and all this stuff, and I took that, and I gave it to the California attorney that I have now, and I was like, yeah, blah, blah, blah, this, here's what I got, and she's like, well, okay, this doesn't include your business, and I was like, how is that possible? And she's like, well, you don't have crypto, do you? And I was like, some, and she's like, yeah, none of that's mentioned in here. Oh, wow, that's good to know. Yeah, and I remember talking with the lawyer about it, but here's the problem, and this is gonna sound a little, what's the word, ageist or whatever.

51:16the previous lawyer i had was 70 and semi-retired and insisted on federal expressing everything and it cost like a hundred dollars to transfer documents to her and when we wanted stuff updated she wanted us to highlight it and fedex it back to her let me guess that she did not know what the blockchain was right so i told her about bitcoin and she was basically like that's not really a real thing so who cares don't worry about your nickels in the piggy bank suite it was pretty much that she was like that's not really a thing so don't worry about it kind of assuming it was all just fad and was going to go away.

51:44She doesn't realize it's actually an asset class and you have to deal with it properly. Anyway, so our new lawyer, who's a little bit younger and sort of on top of this stuff, was like, no, no, no, this is a disaster. You're so lucky we're changing this. Another great life pro tip right there. Yes. Make sure you get somebody who understands what you're doing. If you get somebody who does trust and estates for people and they've never done one for people with a business, get somebody who does it with a business, especially if it's an online business and not a brick and mortar. That's going to be different.

52:10And if you have a bunch of, I don't know, crypto or something like that, or holdings abroad, you need to make sure people have experience with this because a lot of lawyers will just be like, it's fine. I put your Chase account on there and it's like, okay, now all this stuff is now in probate or just floating around and you don't know what to do with it and your kids are fighting over it or whatever. It's not good. You do not want that. Anyway, there's a subreddit for the show. A lot of listeners in there. Gabe's in there. Bob's in there. I'm banned. Whatever. You can find it on Reddit at the Jordan Harbinger subreddit.

52:40All right, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a mom of four kids, ages six, five, three, and two. And my husband and I have been married for almost eight years. He's always been my biggest supporter, encouraging, empowering, gentle, patient, and great about sharing responsibilities at home. After our second child was born, I decided to go back to school for music therapy, partly to help provide additional income for our family, but also because I was struggling with new parent identity loss and needed something that was just for me. Music has always been a profound source of connection for me, and I've always loved serving others, so music therapy felt like the perfect merging of those callings.

53:20Amazing. Love that. My husband supported us financially while I pursued my degree. I completed a five-year program in three and a half years, all while navigating young toddlers and adding our third child to our family. She attended classes with me for her first six weeks of life until she could begin the university's daycare program. I graduated with a 3.9 GPA when I was pregnant with our fourth child. I pushed through my internship while dealing with preeclampsia, gave birth, took six weeks postpartum, finished my internship, and passed the board certification exam all before my fourth child was a year old.

53:55Holy moly, you are a warrior, madame. This is an insane amount of stuff to take on. I would not make it through that. I am exhausted just hearing about that. I know. To pull it off at that level of success is really something. During those years, though, our family was under significant financial strain. Living on one income with four small kids was incredibly difficult, and no matter how much we budgeted or cut back, we constantly felt like we were drowning. At the same time, my mental health was deteriorating. Being home full-time, while meaningful in many ways, amplified my OCD, depression, and anxiety.

54:30I struggled with identity loss, isolation, and feeling like I wasn't contributing in the ways I wanted to. I struggled with suicidal ideation, and even had a near attempt when my fourth was a few months old. Oh wow, I'm very sorry to hear that. That is, this is tough. So this period, super productive, stimulating, gratifying, but it clearly caught up with you while you were home with the baby. Poor thing. I hope you found the support that you needed. Someone to talk to. I'm in therapy and have been for years. Great. All right. That was my next question. Very glad to hear you have that support.

55:03I began working part time as needed as a music therapist at a hospice center nearly two years ago, but it wasn't enough to stabilize either our finances or my mental well-being. I just want to wrap my head around this for a second. Postpartum stuff, OCD, depression, anxiety, identity loss, isolation, all these big existential struggles in a near suicide attempt. And her next move, Gabriel, is to go back to work. Yeah, so work is clearly very important to her, but you're right, that is a very heavy chapter to move on from, and then to go from that back into therapeutic work yourself. Yeah, it is a lot.

55:39I'm just picturing her working at this hospice center, which I imagine that's gotta be a pretty intense environment, sitting with people who are dying, and she's thinking, yeah, three weeks ago, I almost killed myself. Anyway, let me shake this tambourine at a cancer patient. I don't know. Look, I'm not trying to make light of this. It's just, it's a heavy role for somebody who's struggling in their own life as well. That's all. No, no, no. It's a good point. Not just that she's throwing herself into work, but that she's throwing herself into this work. And I'm sure she could have written many paragraphs about the relationship between her own suffering and this big calling of hers, because there must be some connection there.

56:12Maybe working with people who are dying also helps put things into perspective for her, that would be one big upside to going back to work when you're this fragile. All of this made the idea of moving into a full-time role feel not just practical, but necessary, both for our family's survival and for my own sense of purpose and stability. She keeps mentioning this purpose and identity thing, so that's clearly really important to her. Then last year, I was offered a full-time hospice music therapy position. This job opened a lot of doors for us and offered essential income, stability, and health insurance.

56:44My husband and I discussed the major changes, our two youngest starting daycare, him taking on school drop-off and pickup, and me working a structured 8-5 with a long commute. Those conversations went well, and I felt completely supported. So I started the job, excited about the opportunity. We're six weeks into this transition, and now things at home feel like they are unraveling. The house is a mess, the Google calendar is overflowing, and the learning curve at a corporate national hospice company has been astounding. What's been especially hard though is how drastically my husband's behavior has shifted since I started working full-time.

57:23The man who has always been supportive, patient, and involved has become moody, irritable, and short with both me and the kids. He's begun yelling and saying demeaning things to me in front of them, and he's stopped doing many of the household tasks he previously handled without issue. He often complains that taking the kids to and from school is hurting his work and productivity, and when I offer to adjust my schedule or take one of those responsibilities back, he refuses, saying things like, you wanted to go be a boss, babe. You said your schedule wouldn't allow it, so stick to it and get out of here.

57:56Yikes. But then in moments when I'm simply communicating logistics, when I need to leave or get home, what my workday looks like, etc. He'll say things like, I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while. Oh, man, this is tough. So obviously he's going through it, too. And this way of communicating is not super kind and not helpful. He sounds angry, angry or just overwhelmed and probably out of control, which can cause a person to lash out for sure. Not entirely fair, but understandable. But whatever it is, even if he has a point, Not the most productive way to communicate that to your spouse.

58:30The inconsistency has been confusing and painful, and I'm not sure how to interpret what is really going on. That's a really nice way to put it. I love that you're asking that question. Same. The interpretation is everything, right? Yeah, staying open to what your husband actually means by this stuff as opposed to deciding what he means and then, like, building a case around that. That's going to make this much easier to work on, for sure. Meanwhile, my mental health has actually improved. Being back at work full-time has given me purpose, structure, and stability. We're finally climbing out of a deep financial hole.

59:02But my husband refuses individual and couples therapy, saying he's quote-unquote fine, and that I'm the one who should increase my sessions if I need help or support. Fascinating how often we hear that. That's too bad. Am I failing my family the way my husband insists I am? Is this tension just growing pains after six years of me being the primary parent? Or is there something deeper going on? How can I navigate this transition, support my marriage, and still keep the progress I've worked so hard to make, personally and professionally? Signed, trying to find the formula to conduct this increasingly unwieldy orchestra.

59:39Okay, what a story. What a fascinating person. So much going on here. So I just want to reiterate what you've built, this large family, a meaningful career, a very complex but stimulating life, through sheer hard work and a strong sense of what lights you up. It's extremely impressive, and honestly, it's very inspiring. Like I said, you sound like a badass. I probably couldn't achieve half of this with four small kids, so well done. But all of that has played out alongside and probably informed in various ways some very real mental health struggles. And now, these challenges in your marriage. And I'm sorry about that.

1:00:12I can hear how stressful and confusing it is. It must make all of this so much harder. Candidly, the challenges you and your husband are having, which, by the way, I don't think are super unusual. I think all couples struggle at various points to manage stress, communicate well, collaborate effectively, parent young kids. But they're the kinds of challenges that you'll probably make the most progress on in couples therapy. But the fact that he doesn't want to go, that's a real obstacle and also probably an interesting data point in all this. Not only is your husband very different from you in this department, I mean, therapy is your career.

1:00:43I'm guessing he's resisting going because he doesn't believe that he's responsible for these challenges and or he doesn't want to have to deal with what might come up in session, whether that's specific issues between you or his own stuff or just the basic vulnerability of working with a therapist. Or maybe having to give up the narrative that this is all her fault, basically, or that she's the only one who needs to change here. Yes. Whereas agreeing to go means opening the door to a new story about what's happening between them, a more complicated one, and I think probably a more accurate one, which would mean having to take ownership of his piece of the situation.

1:01:17I can empathize with them to some degree. A lot of people, especially men, especially men who are new to therapy, they can find the whole project daunting. I get that. But when one spouse is saying, I'm fine, you're the one who should go to therapy more often if you need help, not only is that kind of invalidating, but it shuts the conversation down. It just narrows the paths forward. Yeah, and it puts the onus back on our friend here to make all the progress in their relationship, which is tough. Which, to be fair, she might be able to make progress by taking care of her side of the street. That is possible.

1:01:46But she's already in therapy. It's not like she hasn't gone near any of this stuff before. And the particular problem they're wrestling with, it's not just an issue with her, right? It's about their marriage. It's about the way they talk to each other, the way they support each other, how they work through conflicts and grievances or whatever. So I'm not sure in what world this is just a her problem. Agreed completely. And I'd actually go a step further and say it sounds like there's a lot happening on his side of the equation here. This anger he has, the yelling, the saying demeaning things, his complaints about the impact the kids are having on his work, the passive aggressive comments about her and her career.

1:02:22Which are all new behaviors, let's remember. I think that's interesting. Right. She said he was always supportive and patient and involved. And now he's moody, irritable and short. Totally different. Yeah. In what world is that entirely her problem to resolve? I mean. It can't be. Yeah, even if he believes that she's the one provoking him, stressing him, that's still going through some process in him. He's still responsible for how he responds and how he communicates. But honestly, Jordan, like you said a moment ago, I think one likely explanation for this sudden change is that her husband is overwhelmed and stressed and feeling out of control.

1:02:54Because that does seem to be the one big thing that has changed is how they've had to reorient their lives to make her career possible. It's understandable. How could they not be? They have four young kids. They're juggling two big careers. the logistics sound bananas. They, until recently, were having money problems. They each want to contribute. They each want to be fulfilled. That might not always be possible at the same time. Like, this is a lot for any couple to deal with. Yes. And also, as a man, I think I can understand why the financial piece of this might be particularly difficult for him.

1:03:23We don't know for sure, but I do wonder if maybe he's experiencing some unique stress and shame around struggling to provide for the family, and that's just coming out as anger. That's a really interesting theory. So I agree with you that he's not making things easier. If he just said, honey, I am totally overwhelmed. I'm angry. I'm not getting as much done as I used to. I'm struggling with what your new job is putting us through. I feel bad that I wasn't able to provide for us, whatever it is. You know, I want to support you, but this doesn't feel sustainable. Anything like that. Just that would probably be a huge help.

1:03:54Yeah, totally different conversation, right? If he only learned how to do that in couples therapy, that would probably be a big win. Although I think he would probably learn a lot more than just that. but that's a useful thing to know how to do. But actually, my original point was, I think we're both very identified with our friend here. We want her to have purpose in her life. I want her to be able to earn this money, then contribute to the family. She deserves all of it. She's worked so hard to get here. But I'm with you. I also do feel for her husband, and I just want to make some room for a guy who is probably struggling with some big stuff of his own, quite understandably, and doesn't really know how to address it.

1:04:29Totally. This amount of chaos and instability would do a number on anyone. I don't like the way he's trying to manage it, which is really not managing it. He's just lashing out and blaming her. But I agree with you. She'd only be helping them succeed if she took a real interest in his feelings right now, as much of an interest as she hopes he'll take in hers. I also imagine that there are a few different sources of his anger and probably his anger has a few different functions in their relationship. Just reading between the lines here, and I'm also going to be speculating a tiny bit, but her husband might have some complicated feelings about her new career.

1:05:03He might support her in one way and maybe resent her a little bit in another way. Or he might not have realized until this moment that he would have preferred that she stay home with the kids or thought of herself as a mother first and a professional second. He might have some residual feelings about that period where she was really struggling. I mean, he might be worried about her mental health still or her ability to handle all of this. Who knows? He might even be angry about the near suicide attempt if he knows about that. I mean, he might just be anxious about the uncertainty of the whole situation, and that's what the anger is about.

1:05:36Good point. Like, have you really resolved all that? Is that going to happen again? As we were talking about earlier, being angry at her might also be a way for him to avoid looking at his role in all this. I mean, he might be angry at himself for agreeing to the new job, for not being able to manage things as well as he thought he could. But instead of trying to figure out what he needs to do to adapt, he's locating that in her. So the anger might be a little projective in that way and then also protective. Like, I'm so angry at you for putting us in this situation. You fix it that way. I don't have to acknowledge that I signed up for this and might actually have to find better ways of working with it.

1:06:10Yeah, I could see that. I also wonder if this anger and this passive aggression, if it might also be a language for a message he doesn't quite know how to articulate. Interesting. So what do you mean? Like, that's the only way he has of communicating? Yes, and that he might be communicating something more than just his disapproval or his anxiety. Again, I'm speculating, but when he says, you wanted to go be a boss, babe, so, you know, stick to it and get out of here, he might be saying, well, you said you were up for this. You rearranged our entire life to make it happen after a very crazy period.

1:06:44So now prove you can actually do it. Show me it was worth it. Ah, interesting. So the subtext might be, he's challenging her, he's holding her accountable. That's a nice way to put it. Or when he says, I just wish you would choose to prioritize your family every once in a while, what he might actually be saying is, I just wish you would prioritize me. You know, I feel disconnected from you, or I feel misunderstood, or I feel uncared for. What he might be saying really is, I miss you. Interesting. So the anger is just the tip of the iceberg, but underneath it is all these other needs and feelings and messages that he refuses to explore because he won't go to therapy.

1:07:16I mean, I think it's possible. And if it's not those particular messages, it's probably other ones. So when she asks, is there something deeper going on? I suspect that that's part of the something deeper. This is not ultimately a conflict about the kids' school pickups or what their work day looks like or whose career should take priority. This is a conflict about what they need as individuals and as a couple and how they feel about themselves and how they feel about the other and what this new lifestyle is bringing up for them and probably years of challenges and tension that seem to have accumulated and are now boiling over.

1:07:51And ultimately, I think it's about how they take care of each other through all of this, how they evolve to service this very ambitious vision for their lives. Also, I'm getting the sense that they are just exhausted. And when you're exhausted, it's really hard to show up as your best self. Sometimes anger is just the easiest way to communicate when you're depleted. I do it all the time. I snap at my parents for something minor and I realize Papa Jordy needs a nap and a banana. The obvious answer is get more sleep, take care of yourselves. But with four young kids and two careers, they might just go through a period where they're pushed to the brink a little bit and they need to learn how to work with that stress better.

1:08:27So are you failing your family the way your husband insists you are? Calling what's happening here failing. I think that's probably overly simplistic. I understand that your husband feels you aren't prioritizing the right things. He's allowed to feel that way. He's allowed to check in and ask if you are. And you're allowed to decide for yourself if that's true. In an ideal world, that's an ongoing conversation between the two of you. Also, you haven't told us much about your kids, what they need from you, what challenges might be coming up for them. So it's hard to know if you're failing them.

1:08:57I can't say for sure that you aren't, but you haven't shared anything that would suggest that you're like seriously neglecting them or anything like that. I don't know. If you guys were like forgetting to pick up your kids from school regularly or one of your kids were having behavioral issues that weren't getting addressed or, you know, like multiple nights a week, mom is just MIA and we can't reach her or whatever. That's a different story. But even then, I would probably say slapping a label like failing on yourself kind of misses the nuance of a parent who is trying to be a great mom and also wants to have a meaningful career.

1:09:28What I'm hearing is that you and your husband are juggling multiple goals and responsibilities, and that means sometimes handling parts of your life imperfectly. That's just what happens. I don't think the standard here needs to be perfection, whatever that means. I don't know any parent who crushes everything 100 % all the time, and the standard here, I think, should be, are we supporting each other? Are we talking to each other? Am I clear on my priorities? Am I giving all of us every advantage I possibly can, given the constraints here? That is something you can achieve. I also wonder where this failing idea comes from, because she never said that her husband said that about her.

1:10:02He might be implying it, and hey, maybe that is how he feels, but as you pointed out, Jordan, she is being pretty thoughtful about what interpretations she runs with, and it sounds like this is one of those interpretations. Her husband can have some legitimate questions and concerns about how they're managing their family, how they're balancing their careers without implying that she is a total failure, and all of the judgment that comes with a label like that. I do wonder if the concept of failure is a big one for her, especially given what a high performer she is. The mother of three who finished a five-year program in three and a half years with an infant in one arm and got a 3.9 GPA while pregnant and worked through her pregnancy and all these medical issues.

1:10:41I mean, she must hold herself to insanely high standards. Yeah, and those standards must be a big part of how she sees herself, what kinds of experiences she wants to have in life, what she deserves. Dude, I have massive respect for anybody who achieves at a high level, but I think we all know that high achievers, super ambitious people, I'm not going to say there's something wrong with them. I'm probably falling to that camp sometimes, but there is always more going on beneath the surface. And in her case, anything less than exceptional might automatically make her feel like a failure. And I can only imagine the impact that that belief must have on her identity and on her mental health.

1:11:18Yeah, that's where my mind went. And I'm sure there were many things contributing to the OCD and the depression, the anxiety, the meaninglessness. I'm sure she and her therapist have talked a ton about this, but holding herself to this abstract, impossible, monolithic standard, that's got to be a big part of it. And how she meets all these difficult feelings that result to say nothing of the childhood and life experiences that created these ideas in the first place. One hundred percent. I would really encourage her to consider a less rigid, less black or white rubric for what success and failure actually look like in a situation like this, I also just want to make room once again for her husband's feelings about this perfectionism.

1:11:54In one way, he might be reinforcing the perfectionism by getting angry at her for falling short as a mom and as a wife. In another way, though, he might actually be shining a light on the absurdity of it, like, this is the rubric by which you wanted to measure yourself, you know, how's that working out for you? Interesting. Man, so much going on between these two. So we went deep into this one. I hope we've given you some new angles here. I do think there's something deeper going on. There always is. I don't think this is just growing pains after six years of being the primary parent, although this is obviously a huge shift for you guys.

1:12:27It was bound to be a little bumpy. The best thing you can do to navigate this transition, support your marriage, protect all your progress, is to communicate with your husband as well as you can. Try to understand where he's coming from. Try to empathize with him while you take care of yourself. Keep taking care of yourself as best you can, and your therapist should be a big part of that. But more than anything, instead of looking at your life and going, I need to do this perfectly, I need to get this right, I would try as much as you can to look at it instead and go, I need to keep learning as best I can.

1:12:58I need to be open to evolving to handle all of this as well as I can, knowing I'm not always going to get it perfect, but that I can always adjust along the way and do better, whatever that means to you. I think you're going to get a lot further that way with far less suffering, sending you, your husband, and your kids a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Cory Dr. Rowe and our Skeptical Sunday on the Gold Standard if you haven't done so yet. Show notes on the website, transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discount codes, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:13:29I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sadlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And yeah, I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

1:14:00In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Jamie Mustard, who signed a billion-year contract at age five while he still believed in Santa Claus and spent his childhood inside Scientology's Sea Org, where kids were warehoused like livestock and denied even basic education. The story of the lost children of Scientology has never been told. And I really do believe if people knew what happened to us in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, what happened to us kids in that environment, they would stop it.

1:14:33There's a line for the suffering of children. By the age of five or six years old, I just basically started to go completely numb. These thousands of kids, they have autoimmune disease. They're all doing construction. Most of them, some of the more successful ones get lucky because they become contractors. But if people knew it would happen to us, which is the story that I wrote, that people would stop. It would be the end. On the day of my birth, I was handed over to a religious paramilitary organization, high control authoritarian group in a slum tenement where I spent the first two and a half years of my life with little to no human touch.

1:15:10And that would be the beginning of pretty much a 20 year gauntlet where I wouldn't go to school and I would literally be animalized. We weren't looked at as anything of value until we could work or contribute labor. I never went to school. The age of 20, I could barely write characters, and I didn't know how to use a comma or construct a sentence or a paragraph. The reason I never spoke out is what I write about that happened to me, it's humiliating. I don't want anyone to know any of the things that we've talked about today. I mean, I think Scientology is the most sophisticated mind control system probably in the history of the human species.

1:15:46I'm starting for the first time in my life to be shame-free. To hear what happened during the largest FBI raid in U.S. history, which makes you wonder how this all stayed hidden in plain sight and when he finally escaped nearly illiterate at age 19, check out episode 1270 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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