1296: Saving Bro's Soul from Alt-Right Rabbit Hole | Feedback Friday

15:15Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, that's a good one. You know, Gabe, one thing I've found is whenever people are being led by emotion instead of logic, what they do is they go, you just have to watch the videos. They can't actually explain why an argument is compelling. They go, you need to watch it. Just watch it. And then you go, okay, send me this video. and then they send you a video with a guy. It's like dramatic music and the guy's yelling about something and you go, ah, I see this person created a feeling in you and that feeling made you feel powerful or like you were in on some knowledge. But really what he said was nothing or a bunch of nonsense.

15:48Gabriel Mizrahi:Dude, so many of this content is just riling people up and kind of getting at like something vague and moody instead of saying here is a rigorous argument laid out with facts, data, building some worldview that actually is coherent. Most of it is not really that.

16:04Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. Yeah. Look, part of the appeal of these influencers is, and look, some people are genuinely vibing with misogyny and antisemitism, obviously, but a lot of guys, they just kind of enjoy listening to people who are uncensored. There's something thrilling about it. And they're like, yeah, look at this guy. He's so tough. He doesn't give a crap. Look, he can't get sponsors, but he doesn't care. It's because people are trying to silence him. That's so brave. There's something liberating about listening to people like that, but the substance is totally asinine. It's gross and offensive, but the attitude is kind of appealing.

16:33Jordan Harbinger:And I have to admit that. Honestly, I get it. I think it's reckless and dumb, and I think it's kind of immature and puerile almost all the time. But it's also partly, at least, a reaction to this over-policing of thought and language that's taken place over the last 10 to 15 years. And once again, that does not forgive the ideas in any way. But again, I think it's just important to understand the psychology. So yeah, that's a helpful and useful thing to help your brother tease out. Are you responding to the ideas or are you just kind of responding to the tone?

17:05Gabriel Mizrahi:You could also say, you know, I respect that you want to expose yourself to these different ideas. You want to evaluate them for yourself. I just want to remind you, though, true critical thinking, it's not just about listening to these extreme takes. It's about interrogating them and understanding the full context so you can spot when somebody is getting it wrong or misleading you or manipulating you, which I'm sure you don't want, and come to an even better opinion. So are you doing that?

17:29Jordan Harbinger:I like that. Validate the effort, but also remind him that it's easy to just fall into one more echo chamber. So those are a few ways to encourage independent thinking without saying, you know, your podcast playlist is trash and you need to go watch the Gloria Allred documentary. On the values front, if he comes to you like, women just want men with money, so I'm going to hustle and not let any of these hoes get too close. Now I'm saying maybe you say, wow, that's a strong stance. How important is making a ton of money to you? Do you want to work hard to attract people or do you want to work hard because you want to work hard and actually achieve something?

18:05Jordan Harbinger:Or if he says something like Jews control the banking system. They're the reason we're involved in all these wars, whatever sort of Mickey Mouse version of anti-Semitism appeals to teenagers. you can say, well, I get why you're questioning why we get involved in stuff as a country, but is that theory helping you get to the bottom of it? Does it make you understand geopolitics more, Jewish people more, or is it less because it's a smokescreen? Walk me through the logic here. Why is this the explanation or is it just all vagaries? So the relevant values

18:36Gabriel Mizrahi:there are what? Curiosity, intellectual rigor, empathy for other people.

18:40Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. And these are just a couple examples. I mean, when we did the Skeptical Sunday on anti-Semitism, a lot of these people will say they'll find out I'm Jewish and they'll go like, ah, this is why you guys were expelled from 190 countries. And I'm like, OK, this is why you guys were expelled. You guys can't stop doing podcasts. OK, fine. That I can see kicking. You kick a group, kick a group out of the country. Podcasters start with the podcasters. So annoying. First, they came for the podcasters and I did nothing. The facts of these things, the air quotes facts of these usually don't even stand up, you're like, oh, my God, they got kicked out of what is 109 countries.

19:12Jordan Harbinger:And then you look it up and it's just like not even close to true. It's just a random number that people have made up. And and then you're like, where's the list? And you go on like a Nazi sub board to try to find the list and they count London as a country. And you're like, OK, so not only can you guys not count, but you're also terrible at geography. Color me surprised.

19:28Gabriel Mizrahi:Maybe the most important value we're talking about is actually wanting to understand an issue and all of its complexity instead of, you know, wanting to be right or repeat somebody else's talking points.

19:38Jordan Harbinger:Yes, because just wanting to be right, that speaks to other values, wanting to be superior, get one up on other people, sort of a common conspiracy. Yeah, feel safe. Very common conspiracy theory thinking. There's a huge overlap between people who have extreme left or extreme right ideology and conspiracy theory believers. I mean, some of this alt-right stuff is actually just conspiracy theory, plain and simple. Andrew Tate, he runs a scam coaching empire. A lot of the anti-Semitic stuff is based on just laughably disprovable conspiracy theories that go back hundreds or even thousands of years.

20:12Jordan Harbinger:But some of this stuff is just like, well, there's this way of looking at the world, and it's not total BS, but it's deeply misguided. And then some of it is maybe accurate up to a point, but it's not necessarily a healthy or nuanced way of approaching life. But the process of deprogramming somebody who believes in it, it's all very similar.

20:28Gabriel Mizrahi:Well, I think what you're getting at is that any belief, even if it is true or legitimate to some degree, if it's militant enough, if it's unthinking enough, then it always becomes toxic. Exactly. So in a way, it doesn't matter so much what you believe, but, you know, how you believe.

20:42Jordan Harbinger:And that's where the whole strong beliefs loosely held idea comes into play. We talk about this in a recent Wee Bit Wiser, one of my favorites. By the way, it's our newsletter, jordanharbinger.com slash news is where you can find it. Little gem most Wednesdays. That's the plug for the day. Some solid ideas in there. And it's a great companion to the show. I'm not lying about that. But yeah, okay, absolutely. That's a key value too. And that's often the value that keeps people from getting fully sucked into this alt-right stuff because so much of the alt-right thing is we're right, everyone else is wrong, and they want to take your power and your dignity.

21:13Jordan Harbinger:So you better believe in this stuff or you should be scared. And I say alt-right, but you could even just say extreme left and say the exact same thing, maybe with a couple shades different, and you're good. It's just not unique to the alt-right. And I know tons of, can you even say alt-leftists? Is that a thing? They're just as militant. They're just as entrenched in their ideas. I think this is really more about the human mind than it is about any quote-unquote philosophy, if you can call it that.

21:36Gabriel Mizrahi:You mentioned close relationships as another way to keep them grounded. Do you want to say more about that?

21:40Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. My thinking there is one common threat among young men who get radicalized is they're often alienated, right? They just don't have close friends.

21:50Gabriel Mizrahi:They're lonely, yeah, and they tend to not have a lot of meaning from other sources in their lives.

21:54Jordan Harbinger:And, shocker of shockers, they don't do well with women. They feel undesirable and misunderstood, and that's what makes them go, oh, this explains why. It's not me having done nothing to make myself attractive or interesting in any way. It's because women are only after guys with money or whatever.

22:09Gabriel Mizrahi:And also, these people get me.

22:10Jordan Harbinger:Yeah. Now, she hasn't said anything that makes me think her brother is definitely in that camp. I think she would have told us if he was locked in his room and, you know, given off school shooter vibes. But regardless of how isolated he is, his relationships, especially with her, they are crucial.

22:25Gabriel Mizrahi:Well, she did say that they've always had a good relationship, but their relationship has weakened a little bit after she moved away. So that could be playing a role in all of this.

22:32Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, which is why I'm glad she's putting in some work to stay close.

22:35Gabriel Mizrahi:But to be fair, is it her job to keep her brother from being radicalized? I don't know.

22:40Jordan Harbinger:No, no, it's not. It's not. But she can help. I mean, it's these relationships that are going to keep him tethered to reality that are going to keep him exposed to other ideas and ways of thinking. I would say especially because she's a woman. Exactly. It's way harder to buy into Andrew Tate's view of the world if you have close female relationships. Not impossible. Do you remember that guy, Roosh V, Gabriel? No. Who is this? He had a blog. It was like this super misogynist pickup artist kind of guy. And he was like this kind of gross dude who traveled around to different countries and he would write books about the different countries and how to like bang the girls in that country or whatever.

23:15Jordan Harbinger:And he got really well known pre Andrew Tate for being just really misogynist. And then investigative journalists found out that he lived in his mother's basement with his sister.

23:26Gabriel Mizrahi:Interesting.

23:27Jordan Harbinger:And he was like, leave them alone. They haven't done anything. These are good women. And it's like you literally wrote countless words about how all women are predatory and terrible. And he's like, not my sister and my mom. So he had this crazy Madonna whore complex with women where his sister and mother were angels and saints and every other woman on the planet was just a receptacle for him. And it was just like, not only are you mentally ill, but holy crap, you couldn't write this as fiction, right? It would be too unbelievable that this dude lives in his mother's basement. And that was the end of him.

23:58Jordan Harbinger:I mean, nobody's heard a peep from that guy since we found out he lived in his mother's basement in a house with his mom and his sister. I mean, it was just so, hey mom, the meatloaf, we want it now, the meatloaf. It was just the epitome of this, right? Okay. And so it's harder, but not impossible to buy into Andrew Tate's or whatever Roosh's view of the world, if you have close female relationships, because then when he pops off about, you know, women belong in the home or women can't drive or women are a man's property, which is so sort of comically misogynistic that it's hard to even wrap your head around.

24:33Jordan Harbinger:But there are people who actually believe this crap. Okay. When he says that, if you got an awesome sister you talk to once a week, if one of your best friends is a woman, you're going to go, okay, do I really believe Tiffany shouldn't be allowed to leave the house? Is Tiffany really my property or her future husband's property? Obviously not. Why am I listening to this guy? And what else is he wrong about as a result?

24:54Gabriel Mizrahi:So exactly. The other thing you can do with your brother is listen, not just to his opinions, but to his feelings. because again, what drives the intensity of our beliefs, the content of the beliefs aside, is the function that they serve for us. And one big function that beliefs serve, I think, is to help us make sense of the world and to cope with our feelings about it. Jordan touched on a few of the main ones, anger, anxiety, fear. I think you're a lot more likely to believe that, I don't know, Jews are responsible for all the problems in the world if you're angry with your leaders or you can't get a job, for example.

25:26Jordan Harbinger:Or it's way easier to think women are dumb and shouldn't be allowed to leave the house or have jobs if you're embarrassed because you haven't ever been able to attract one.

25:33Gabriel Mizrahi:Or you're afraid that your job is going to disappear over the next decade. So you're freaking out, but you're not talking about that or doing anything about it exactly. But there are other feelings that drive radical beliefs. Confusion is a really big one. Although I guess confusion collapses back into anxiety because confusion about the world produces uncertainty and uncertainty makes us anxious. And then we'll come up with all sorts of theories to deal with that feeling. But I think the other big one, we talk about this all the time, is shame. Shame about our abilities, our power, our limitations.

26:02Gabriel Mizrahi:You mentioned dating. I think that's a good example. So when you talk to your brother, yes, engage with the ideas. That's important. But also try to listen for his affect. What feelings he seems to be dealing with, what feelings he's bringing up in you. You know, maybe you say, I think I can understand why you would want to pin the blame on somebody, but I'm listening to you and I'm noticing you sound a little angry. Are you angry? And maybe you guide him to talk about that.

26:23Jordan Harbinger:I like that. She doesn't even need to say, hey, you only believe this crap because you're angry and impressionable. I mean, she's certainly allowed to. Maybe sometimes that's appropriate. But if she helps him work through some of these feelings, the ideas might loosen their grip on him on their own. I got to say, Gabe, I know tons of people that have followed similar things like this. And the vast majority were really unhappy, deeply unhappy with one or two areas of their life, whether it was their dating life. It might have been their work life. It might have been both. But once that problem got solved, it was like a light switch.

26:56Jordan Harbinger:I had a really close friend of mine who was really into a lot of the misogynist stuff. And we talked a lot about dating because he knew, you know, I used to be a dating coach and stuff like that. And we talked a lot about like relationship dynamics and we just fundamentally disagreed on a lot. He didn't really have a lot of good points. It was mostly just, but this guy says, and it's like, well, that's a convenient explanation for why you're still single, but that's not the reason. And then he got a girlfriend and a serious relationship and they're happy. And I'm like, Hey man, haven't heard you talk about this guy in a long time.

27:21Jordan Harbinger:And he's like, oh, yeah, you know, I mean, it's just like he didn't even have an explanation for why. And I was like, yeah, because you don't have to stay up late at night being angry that you're single. Amazing how that works. Suddenly none of what he's saying is interesting or makes any sense anymore. Surprise, surprise.

27:36Gabriel Mizrahi:Another thing you might want to try is maybe encourage your brother to have as many new experiences with as many different people as possible. Maybe you encourage him to, I don't know, go backpacking on his school breaks. I think travel is generally one of the best antidotes to rigid thinking, the best way to break out of your bubble. Maybe you encourage him to volunteer in different communities, countries, neighborhoods. I think you're a lot less likely to hate Jews or black people or women or whomever it is if you're working with them or hanging out with them, getting to know them. So part of this is just life experience.

28:06Jordan Harbinger:I like that idea a lot. Look, at 17, you probably only know your own family, your community, and your high school. Unless you traveled a ton as a kid, you just don't have that much data to work with. Your understanding of the world is pretty much mediated by the media, right? Cable news, which no kids watch, podcasts, which are full of crap, present company included, Reddit, whatever it is. But that's a story. It's curated. It's at a distance. There's no substitute for actually walking through another country and talking to people from different walks of life and realizing, oh, there are people with a very different experience of life from me.

28:40Jordan Harbinger:They think differently. They have very different problems. They have very different beliefs. I have a lot to learn maybe before I form an opinion about how they're pulling the string secretly or undermining masculinity or shouldn't be allowed to leave the house or whatever. I mean, you just need to make sure that you are not sheltering under a rock or, like I said before, dripping syrup on your lap from Eggo waffles in your mom's basement before you actually form a concrete adult opinion. And it's tough for a kid to do that. You know, you don't have a lot of resources.

29:09Gabriel Mizrahi:I mean, dude, maybe you even do some of that stuff with him. Take a trip together, volunteer together. That would be great for your relationship and for his worldview.

29:15Jordan Harbinger:I would also keep encouraging his goals, doing well in school, getting a job, getting his own place when the time comes, because having big goals and chasing them, that's going to require him to be in real relationship with people and institutions. It's going to require him to collaborate well with people. It's also going to make it hard to hold damaging beliefs about them. Also, not to mention, chasing goals and having something you're really going after, it shows potential, it's attractive to the opposite sex. one success begets another, a lot of the problems that he's looking to solve through this nonsense on YouTube or whatever he's consuming, it's going to melt away.

29:49Jordan Harbinger:And that's basically the playbook for combating radicalization, getting to the real drivers. Alienation, isolation, disaffection, lack of purpose, powerlessness or perceived powerlessness. Every one of those has an antidote. Community, relationship, goal setting, competence building, curiosity, models of masculinity that integrates strength and empathy. So I would imagine what those would look like in his life and just work backwards from there. Here's the good news. You're still the cool, smart, older sister. Your brother's a smart, sweet kid, according to you. So it's likely he's just going to grow out of this phase, right?

30:22Jordan Harbinger:At least I hope so. But your relationship will probably be a big part of that process. So stay close to him, engage him, listen to him, encourage him. And I'm sure that your dialogue will lead to the right conclusions. He's lucky to have you looking out for them. Good luck. Speaking of capital, we want you to spend some of yours on the fine products and services that support this show, which by the way, they don't want you to know about. And by they, I obviously mean Jews and women. We'll be y 'all right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Momentus. When people talk about energy, recovery, and performance, they usually go straight to training and more protein.

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33:19Gabriel Mizrahi:Hello, Jordan and Gabe. My former mother-in-law is an elderly lady with limited resources who shares a house in Washington State with her ex-husband, who has stolen from her and destroyed her belongings. My ex-husband and his brother, her sons, don't or won't help her. She's made me the executor of her estate. We've advised her to go to the police, but she refuses to press charges against her ex-husband. We've advised her to move, but she says she doesn't have the money to afford her own apartment. Wow, this poor woman. What an interesting situation. The person taking care of her is her son's ex-wife, not her son, or either of her sons.

33:55Jordan Harbinger:It's definitely unusual, but man, if it's true that the main men in her life won't protect her or are straight up hurting her, then thank God for our friend here. Assuming she's not just in it for the executor fees, it's quite a responsibility though.

34:07Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm currently remarried and live in another state. My children are the only grandchildren she has. We have a good relationship, and my new husband is very understanding about my relationship with her.

34:17Jordan Harbinger:I'm confused. So on one hand, she's saying her husband is understanding. But at the same time, in the next breath, she's like, the husband is like, why do you care so much? It's your ex's mom.

34:27Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, that is a little confusing. But she's going, yeah, it's my ex's mom and it's my kid's grandmother and I care about her.

34:33Jordan Harbinger:OK, then why is it so crazy that she cares about her? Yeah, of course she would. This isn't I don't I don't get it.

34:39Gabriel Mizrahi:I've also talked to my ex-husband about what he should do for his mom. He states that he doesn't have a place for her to live. He also lives in another state. He won't help his mom because he's not the executor of her estate.

34:51Jordan Harbinger:Wow. Okay. If that's true, this guy is really a POS. Okay. So he resents that his ex-wife is helping his mom, but then he'd also help only if he stood to benefit financially.

35:03Gabriel Mizrahi:Also, no guarantee that he would. If he's this kind of person, wouldn't he try to maybe enjoy the money and still not help her? Unclear to me.

35:10Jordan Harbinger:Good point. I am just marveling at this guy's mindset. What an absolute jerk. What an a-hole. His own father is stealing from his mom and destroying her belongings and he won't do anything. And he's mad that he's not the executor of her estate. This is ridiculous. I can see why this walking butt pustule of a man

35:28Gabriel Mizrahi:is your ex-husband. Do I have any legal right to make her sons help her? Can I press charges against my ex-father-in-law? What do I do for a lady who's dear to me and my sons, but drives me crazy because she doesn't seem to want to help herself. Signed, a dutiful ex-daughter-in-law protecting her ex's vulnerable ma from his thieving no-good pa when all she does is hem and haw.

35:50Jordan Harbinger:Oh man, this is a sad story. Mostly sad. Your relationship with your ex-mother-in-law, despite the fact that you're no longer married to her son, you've built this whole other life. It's quite touching, actually, and honestly, it's a huge relief because I'm genuinely worried about this woman. She's vulnerable. She doesn't have any other allies from the sound of it. And she struggles to protect herself. That is really tragic. And like you said, it's crazy making. So to answer your question, no, you don't have any legal right to make her sons help their mom, unfortunately. interesting in a lot of U.S.

36:21Jordan Harbinger:states, including Washington. There are what's called filial responsibility laws on the books. These are laws that basically say that adult children can be financially responsible for indigent parents who can't support themselves. But these laws are rarely enforced. And I'm not an expert in this area by any means. My understanding is that they usually come into play when a nursing home or the state is trying to recover unpaid long-term care costs. They're of no help when it comes to forcing a child to care for a parent. They're just, they're basically about reimbursement and only the state can enforce them.

36:52Jordan Harbinger:You wouldn't actually be able to. And no, you can't press charges against your ex-father-in-law. Yeah, you could call the cops and report the crime. If it was a crime, the fact that she's still living with him, that's going to complicate things. But they could theoretically pursue charges if there's clear evidence that he stole or destroyed her stuff. But generally speaking, I'm pretty sure the victim has to cooperate with the police and criminal cases involving theft or property destruction. If she doesn't, the cops are going to shrug. Maybe they'll write up a report. Nothing's going to get done, though.

37:21Jordan Harbinger:So that's the bad news. The good news is I don't think this is the end of the road. I would gather information on housing options either in your ex-mother-in-law's area or in your area and go to her like, hey, I know this is a lot to think about. I know it's scary. I'm your partner in this. I can help you find a safe and comfortable place to live. Will you help me do that? I don't know what your and your ex-mother-in-law's budget would be, but if money is an issue, I would look into low-income senior housing, HUD Section 8 vouchers, Section 202 supportive housing, public housing. A lot of these options often adjust rent to match income.

37:54Jordan Harbinger:You could also consider affordable retirement communities, maybe look into roommate situations. There are some creative options here. Yes, it can take a while to be approved for these places, years sometimes. That sucks. The system is flawed, but it can work. The key here, whether you look for a small apartment on your own or you try to get her plugged into a program, The key is going to be presenting this option to her many times over a long period of time and really putting in the work to help her feel safe taking the leap and trusting you.

38:21Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm guessing that she's terrified of venturing out on her own and finally leaving her ex-husband for good, potentially moving to a whole new city. I mean, for an elderly person, that can be really daunting.

38:30Jordan Harbinger:For sure. So be patient, be compassionate, which you clearly are. Try to get her to explain her resistance, her fears, and then find ways to address them. And maybe you say, look, if you choose to stay in this situation, I will still love you. I will still check in on you. I'll still support you. The kids and I will still visit you. But there's only so much I can do here if you're not a little open to trying something new. And my hope is that you have this conversation enough times. Maybe she sees that things are not getting better at home. And then one day she's like, OK, I've had it. I'm ready.

38:57Gabriel Mizrahi:Or maybe you take her to see a couple of apartments near you and she can actually imagine her life in one of these places instead of just, you know, facing this abstract new chapter. that's probably pretty scary to her. And that's what makes her feel confident to take the leap.

39:10Jordan Harbinger:Totally. That'd be great.

39:11Gabriel Mizrahi:I would also keep in mind, if you ever suspect that your ex-mother-in-law is experiencing something closer to elder abuse or financial exploitation, you can contact Adult Protective Services in Washington State. This is one of the best resources out there for protecting older folks. You make a report, they will investigate. And if they decide that, yes, your ex-mother-in-law is being exploited or is being abused, they can do a number of things. They can create a safety plan with her. They can arrange for temporary shelter, food assistance, medical care, in-home support even. They can help her secure her assets, connect her with legal aid, revoke access to the property if necessary.

39:47Gabriel Mizrahi:In extreme cases, they can even recommend removal of the abuser from the home. I don't know if her ex-husband really qualifies as an abuser, but if it gets really bad, they can look into that. They usually can't make that call alone, and it can take some time, but they can coordinate with courts or law enforcement to make it happen.

40:04Jordan Harbinger:And if the police get involved, that can lead to charges for theft, fraud, vandalism, even elder abuse.

40:10Gabriel Mizrahi:Yep, so this can really make a difference if things are bad enough. I don't know if they are bad enough, but if they get there, this is an option.

40:16Jordan Harbinger:I'm a big fan of APS, but Gabe, if this woman has her wits about her and can make some decisions for herself, she's not senile, she's not suffering from dementia or disabled in some way, and her ex-husband isn't, I don't know, textbook abusing her, APS can't really force her to accept help, right?

40:31Gabriel Mizrahi:Right. And so as we come back to time and time again, you also have to accept that there really is only so much you can do here.

40:37Jordan Harbinger:It sucks, man. I hate the thought of this older lady living with this guy with no one around to protect her. And I can just imagine what that's like day to day. Just some guy being mean to you all the time and you're worried about your stuff and yourself.

40:48Gabriel Mizrahi:Well, the reality is that it's true. You cannot care about your ex-mother-in-law's safety more than she does. I mean, you can, and it's incredibly sweet that you do, but that is not going to guarantee that she changes her circumstances.

40:59Jordan Harbinger:And it might not be entirely appropriate.

41:01Gabriel Mizrahi:I know when it comes to vulnerable people, older people, it's hard to know how much they're really, quote unquote, choosing to stay in a bad situation. You view her living situation as a choice. She probably doesn't feel like it's a choice or not much of a choice. I'm guessing that she just feels constrained by her fear of change, by perhaps her trauma, by the lack of support from her sons. So it's tough.

41:22Jordan Harbinger:Really hating those guys more and more, I gotta say.

41:24Gabriel Mizrahi:I know. Where are they in all this? Bothers me. So she could definitely use your confidence and your concern, but if she absolutely refuses to leave, then there really is not anything you can do. Again, unless she's being abused according to certain criteria. So at some point, you might have to honor that preference and then live with the sadness and the frustration and the anxiety of not being able to get her out of there.

41:45Jordan Harbinger:Either that or go down an alt-right rabbit hole. I hear that really helps.

41:49Gabriel Mizrahi:Exactly. Andrew Tate should be able to help you figure out how to care for your ex-mother-in-law. I think that's one of his specialties. What is it? Misogyny, women as property, and helping ex-mother-in-laws when they need to move out of abusive homes.

42:01Jordan Harbinger:Those are his most fire videos. Basically, it's the Jews.

42:04Gabriel Mizrahi:The Jews are destroying her property. So bottom line, keep trying to influence the situation as much as you can, but it might be time to shift your role from savior to supporter here.

42:14Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, I'm with you, Gabe. I'm just wondering if there's any role her sons can play in this. I know I just trash these guys. I mean, they do sound terrible, but based on what we're hearing, they're either not understanding the severity of the situation or they are just complete jerks.

42:29Gabriel Mizrahi:Well, they also seem to be resentful and perhaps envious that our friend here is the executor and they're not. And instead of being good partners to our friend here, they're just refusing to help and making things harder because they can't stand that this woman who is not part of their family anymore directly stands to benefit from the estate, which is absurd, of course.

42:45Jordan Harbinger:Being the executor is hardly like, yay, I won the lottery. I mean, you're taking care of someone's estate. It's a mess. OK, it's not fun. Look, I get why they're upset. But also, it's not like either of these pricks have shown that they are the right caretakers for her. So I don't know. Maybe shut the fuck up, Darren, and think about how you're going to feel when you bury your mom. Anyway, my point, what was my point? My point was, despite how they've behaved, I wonder if she can work on her ex-husband a little bit. Like, look, I know you don't have a place for her to live. I understand you don't want to get involved because you're not the executor, but look, it's your mom.

43:19Jordan Harbinger:She's vulnerable. She needs you. I know it's not fun to work with me, but I do know that you love her. So can you please be my partner in this? Can we put our heads together and figure this out? Can you talk to her, get her to consider living somewhere else? Whatever it is you want from him. Maybe you've tried that, but if you haven't, it is worth a shot. And if you need more leverage, maybe you appeal to his sense of guilt. Like, are you really okay with her staying in that house when your dad is stealing from her? What kind of son do you want to be? How are you going to feel about all this when she's gone?

43:45Jordan Harbinger:Nice, dark Jordan strategy there. I'm not above a little manipulation when it comes to stuff like this. Look, if this guy really is selfish, that might be what gets through to him. I know, again, I know it's kind of manipulative, but I'm just giving you as many options as possible because as close as you and your ex-mother-in-law are, she might need one of her own sons to make her feel comfortable getting out. And if you can make that happen, that would be worth the effort. Sorry things are playing out this way. It really is super sad. Thank goodness you're in the picture. I shudder to think what would happen to this woman if you weren't there looking out for her.

44:13Jordan Harbinger:I know it's a big responsibility but you could make a big difference here. And if you can't, that's okay too. You haven't failed. But like Gabe said, then this becomes about your process of coming to terms with that and working through the feelings, which I think all caretakers have to deal with to some degree, including me, by the way. Sending you and your ex-mother-in-law a big hug and wishing you all the best. All right, now some deals and discounts so good, even your walking butt pustule of an ex can appreciate them. We'll be right back.

44:43Jordan Harbinger:This episode is sponsored in part by Bombas. One of the goals this year and all year round is to stay comfy. And Bombas is leading that charge in my house. We love Bombas so much, it's all we wear. We even gift it to our family and our friends and our nanny. We're big fans of the grip socks so we don't slip around on our floors. Bombas just launched their new sports socks, which are amazing for whatever you're into, running, golf, hiking. We're planning to do more snowboarding this year. And these things are cushioned, sweat-wicking, and packed with techie features that make it feel like your feet are finally on your side.

45:10Jordan Harbinger:Around the house at night, I'm living in their Sunday slippers, which keep my feet cozy during those cold winter nights. And Bombas also has underwear and tees, buttery soft, breathable, the kind of base layers that ruin every other brand for you. Plus, for every item you purchase, Bombas donates an essential clothing item to somebody facing housing insecurity. One purchased, one donated, over$150 million so far.

45:30Gabriel Mizrahi:Head over to bombas.com slash Jordan and use code Jordan for 20 % off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash Jordan. Code Jordan at checkout.

45:41Jordan Harbinger:This episode is also sponsored by ZipRecruiter. For years, it was all about resumes, but the smarter companies are shifting to skills-based hiring. What can this person actually do? I'm surprised it took them this long to figure it out. Can they execute, solve problems, communicate? That's what predicts performance. The problem is saying you hire for skills is really easy. Actually spotting those skills in a pile of applicants is actually the hard part. Well, if you're an employer who's adopted skills-based hiring, the best way to ensure your applicants actually have the right skills is ZipRecruiter.

46:07Jordan Harbinger:ZipRecruiter recommends smart screening questions to help you hone in on that perfect match for your role, and their matching technology surfaces qualified candidates fast instead of you posting a job and hoping the right person randomly finds it. You can even filter for candidates who've been recently active, which matters because good people get hired quick. No wonder ZipRecruiter is the number one rated hiring site based on G2.

46:25Gabriel Mizrahi:Let ZipRecruiter help you find amazing candidates with the skills you seek. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash Jordan. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash Jordan. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

46:43Jordan Harbinger:You can reach us Friday at JordanHarbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're going out of your mind working for a narcissistic politician of a boss, you're in a relationship with an unstable addict who refuses to get better, or you're trying to keep your schizoaffective sister out of prison when she's rejecting your help. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous.

47:09Gabriel Mizrahi:All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm 16 and from the UK, and I have an issue with zoning out quite consistently. This happens in many circumstances, lessons, video calls, and sometimes just being idle, and often results in me making weird facial expressions, not registering when people are talking to me, and most importantly, not taking in information. Your podcast, which I love, is usually my background noise, helping to prevent boredom through some stimulation. But I also really care about the information being shared, and I want to take it in more.

47:43Jordan Harbinger:So this is really high-stakes stuff. You're not getting every second of the show. You're missing the sponsor codes. Look, we gotta fix this.

47:49Gabriel Mizrahi:As much as I care, it's very difficult for me to just not zone out. The only method of preventing this that I found is taking notes, which is hardly practical while walking across campus, being on a bus, etc. I try my very best to avoid the idea of this being related to any mental condition, since I feel like my problems are less significant than what I've heard from people who have one, but I guess it's not out of the question. Is there a chance that this could link to ADHD or ADD? any advice on how to focus better in everyday situations signed a young chap trying to be frank about the fact that he's drawing a blank even when the content is dank so i think i told a story on

48:30Jordan Harbinger:the show like a year ago about how i went to a dinner party with my wife and i completely forgot about somebody who was there even though i was apparently talking to him for like 45 minutes

48:36Gabriel Mizrahi:which is weird because i never forget a face you don't forget the face but you forget the person entirely forgot the entire interaction yeah you're like dory from finding nemo but with a microphone

48:44Jordan Harbinger:Kind of, except then I'll randomly remember the color of the jacket of a guy I met in Serbia 25 years ago or all these random details from my research for a show guest. So it's not like I don't have a men in black style memory wipe every 10 seconds. It's kind of the opposite. And it happens to me all the time. My mind just wanders. It likes to ruminate and get into things. It always has. Probably a surprise to no one that I got diagnosed with ADHD in college. Actually might have even been in law school by that time or close to it. I'm not an expert in this clinically at all, of course, but I know from my own experience how this kind of brain tends to work.

49:20Jordan Harbinger:The only time my mind doesn't wander much anyway is when I genuinely, really genuinely care about the subject. I know there's going to be consequences if I don't pay attention and I'm just wrapped because it's so good. It's like interviewing guests, doing feedback Friday. Rarely my mind wanders during those times. But if it's almost anything else, even if it's Kind of interesting. If it isn't freaking riveting and important, my attention wanders. So I'm not sure if I have the answer. Every brain is different and every person has to find their own approach to this. But here's a few things I've learned.

49:51Jordan Harbinger:First of all, if I were you, I'd start to get curious about what actually happens when you zone out. Do you zone out and go nowhere? Are you just dissociating? Or do you zone out and you go somewhere else? That's what I do. Maybe you go somewhere more interesting or more pressing or more stimulating. Those are very different things. Dissociating or withdrawing, there are many causes of that. It could be anxiety, stress, trauma, could be a struggle to relate, could be sleep issues. Mentally traveling to something more interesting, that's just a very different thing, and it's extremely common.

50:22Gabriel Mizrahi:And what you mentally travel to is probably just as important as well, because the things that your mind enjoys drifting to when it's bored, I imagine that that might reveal your true interests, maybe the direction you should be heading in life.

50:33Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, or it might even reveal something about the way your brain connects information. That could be a huge asset. So I say, don't just catch yourself zoning out. Try to figure out what the quality of your zoning out is. Write down your observations. See what you can learn. Obviously, look, I can't diagnose you or whatever. Nobody can do that remotely. But yes, of course, there's a chance this focus thing could be related to ADD or ADHD. Your brain might just be wired or conditioned to move around a lot. You might have a rich inner life or whatever they call it.

51:04Gabriel Mizrahi:He did say that our show is background noise and it gives him stimulation. That's right. Much needed stimulation.

51:09Jordan Harbinger:And feeling the need to be stimulated, kind of one of the hallmarks of ADD, man. Look, in some contexts, this thing was a real struggle for me, like school, working at the law firm, although it was hard to tell if I just had trouble focusing or if I just hated what I was doing. Running my own company, way less of a problem. And most of the time it's an asset because when my brain jumps around to different subjects and makes connections, I go, oh, I wonder if that could be an episode, or oh, I should write that guest and tell them what I learned over here, or whatever. I say that to remind you that this brain, yes, it's challenging sometimes, but if you use it in the right way, if you gravitate to roles and fields that benefit from it, it can be a real gift, a superpower.

51:46Jordan Harbinger:But here's where it gets complicated. ADD, ADHD, other forms of neurodivergence, yes, they are real. It's also true that the world we live in, our tech especially, is doing serious damage to our attention. Very serious. Social media, endless scrolling, short-form content, constant notifications, video games. It is so obvious that they're disrupting our cognitive function and our memory and our decision-making. They're basically forcing our brains into a near-constant state of shallow, distracted processing. It's actually insane.

52:17Gabriel Mizrahi:I was listening to an expert on this recently who referred to the impact of all of this tech as attentional injury. attentional injury that's a great term yeah i guess a lot of researchers are now thinking of it as a kind of trauma ongoing trauma and that we need to allow our brains to heal from it which means usually means taking long breaks from our phones especially well i'm screwed

52:39Jordan Harbinger:but that does not surprise me the assault on our brains from all these inputs you can feel it man the dopamine hits the deprivation when you don't get them the struggle to pay attention for long periods of time that is kind of an injury yeah it's like getting a tbi via photons or something. But I think people your age, you guys are getting it way worse, sadly, because you guys grew up with all this tech. It's all you've ever known. I feel pretty lucky that I got to be an Eagle Scout and lived in Germany. And I didn't have a phone until I was like 19 or 18. At least my brain got to experience that before it got to experience the iPhone and Call of Duty or whatever.

53:15Jordan Harbinger:Like I said, a few weeks ago or a couple months ago on the show, my host father gave me a cell phone when I was in Germany in like 1997 and I refused to use it and take it with me and he's like take the damn phone and I was like no way man now if I leave my phone and at home and I drive two blocks I'm turning around to get that thing like I can't I just can't so look my point is it can be hard sometimes to know if you have something clinical or if you're just a person with a smartphone in a YouTube account like do I have a disease am I suffering from a brain damage or do why? Just use social media.

53:45Jordan Harbinger:Am I just a modern human? So my advice is, okay, a little bit of a paradox here. On one hand, I think your job right now is to study your mind, figure out how it naturally operates, learn to work with it as much as possible. That's what a lot of ADD coaches and experts teach their clients to do. I think that's healthy. You can read online about specifics of that. It's a lot of task management, organizing your day, doing things in the right order or stuff like that. I wish I had an ADD coach back in the day. That would have been amazing. And on the other hand, I also think your job is to start training your mind to focus for longer periods of time with more intention.

54:18Jordan Harbinger:You can watch and listen to more long-form content like this show. You can bring more awareness to your attention, almost like a form of meditation. See how long you can focus on something before you zone out. When you do, catch yourself, come back to the present, hit rewind, do it again. Try to focus for longer. It's just like going to the gym. Do it enough. You will see the gains. I also like your method of taking notes. I know you said that that's not practical when you're walking or riding the bus, but why not, man? You could tap out some notes in your notes app while you're on the go. You can pause a podcast and talk into your voice note app and have AI transcribe it, whatever.

54:52Jordan Harbinger:It's another step, sure, but maybe that'll lead to even more multitasking. I just don't think it's a bad idea. I don't think it's the worst idea. I would also see if, again, AI tools can help here. They might make it harder to focus, but some of them can present information in a way that's really helpful to a brain like yours slash mine. Dude, if I'd been able to drop legal cases and Supreme Court briefs, whatever, into these tools and say, hey, explain to me what I need to understand about this, why it matters, what the key takeaway principles are. Law school would have been very different for me, man.

55:21Jordan Harbinger:I used to have to read those things literally 10, 20, 30, 50 times. And I totally missed lectures in high school and law school and college that I was in the room for, man. I just zoned out. I wasn't there. I was in space. Imagine recording a lecture on a digital device, dumping that into AI and being like, recap this thing for me. Total game changer. And then you start to remember, oh, I remember when he said that. Okay. So that's what that was. Oh, I missed these 10 minutes, but now I get it. Man, that would have been great.

55:47Gabriel Mizrahi:Have you used notebook LLM, Jordan?

55:50Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, it's actually crazy. Tell me what you're thinking though first.

55:54Gabriel Mizrahi:No, it's just pretty amazing. I played with it the other day and it has this feature where you can drop like, you can drop Google Docs and PDFs and eBooks and like whatever sources you want into this thing. And then you can ask it whatever questions you want. But it has this one feature where it will create a conversation between two AI hosts talking about the subject as if it were a podcast, which is insane. And suddenly the same subject that was maybe hard to focus on, or there's just way too much information for you to digest and understand, it becomes super engaging and understandable.

56:25Jordan Harbinger:So this is exactly what I checked out. My friend is suing a big company, and he dumped all of the legal docs into Notebook LLM and it created, I don't know, a 20 minute podcast. When I listened to this thing to get a summary, I was like, podcasting is, this is a shot across the bow for shows that just deliver information and don't have anything else to add. Isn't it incredible? Because it literally sounds like an intelligent young lady and an intelligent young dude talking. And it would say something like, yeah, so this is a case of so-and-so and he is pursuing big company X. And wow, is this quite a story.

57:01Jordan Harbinger:So first of all, here's what happened. And they go through his injury.

57:03Gabriel Mizrahi:That's exactly what it sounds like. That's exactly what it sounds like. They'll be like, and he's saying, and I mean, he like, he's making a good point. Yeah. And the other guy's like, yeah, but let's also remember the other side is coming back with this argument. Like it's crazy.

57:16Jordan Harbinger:It really is wild. And then at the end of the like, and this is what's actually unbelievable. And then they say something surprising. They don't. So AI often will make a mistake where it goes, and this is what's unbelievable. It's Tuesday, February 23rd. And you're like, what? That's not. They actually do say, and this is what's actually unbelievable. They didn't pay him his severance. Can you believe that? Oh, that's just adding insult to injury. And you're like, wow, it understands what it's saying and why this is an emotionally charged. It's just crazy to me that this exists. And so if you want to dump some boring information into something and make it interesting, this is how you do it, man.

57:51Jordan Harbinger:This is It's a crazy useful tool. And if I had this when I was in college, holy smokes, different experience entirely.

57:58Gabriel Mizrahi:I will say not to sound like Notebook LLM's fake podcasters, but there is a counter argument to this. What's the other side? Tell me more. The other side, well, they're making some good points. But, you know, I think, well, I do wonder if maybe some of these AI tools will force our friend here and other people like him to not have to learn how to focus because they're doing all the work for him. And that might cut across this really great exercise you just gave him. But they can be enormously useful for people who struggle to process written information or even people who don't struggle, but just can't get through hundreds and hundreds of pages of this stuff and come away with the right takeaways.

58:35Gabriel Mizrahi:But anybody who learns better in audio, this feature is a game changer.

58:39Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, I agree. And look, yes, there's something to this, but also, oh, my God, you might not be able to process hundreds of pages of written information. Well, yeah, the point is you don't ever have to do that again. Remember when we were younger, Gabe, and they would go, you need to learn how to do algebra in your head because you're not always going to have a calculator in your pocket? Well, how did that work out, Mrs. Greer? I have a calculator in my pocket when I need algebra once every decade, and it just does it for me. Look, is it good to focus? Yes. Should you be practicing when it's high stakes and you're going to have this stuff on an exam?

59:10Jordan Harbinger:I would say maybe not. You can practice in other ways. You want to go to a lecture, focus on the lecture? go ahead, train your muscles that way. You don't have to do it at eight o 'clock in the morning.

59:19Gabriel Mizrahi:But you know what's so crazy about what you're saying is that they used to tell us, you need to know how to go to the library and look up the call number and go find the book. And then the internet came out and you're like, no, we don't need to do that. That's dumb. This is like, same thing with the calculator or whatever. This though is saying, you don't actually have to develop your brain in the same way. We have a new brain.

59:35Jordan Harbinger:Yes, it's true.

59:37Gabriel Mizrahi:This brain exists outside of your brain. So you don't have to do a lot of this work anymore. It might be the exact same principle, But I do wonder if maybe that is a whole other category of this technology.

59:47Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, I think so. And look, you want to be able to synthesize the information so you don't cheat yourself out of it. But I don't know, man, I look at it this way. If you are hearing impaired and you go to a college lecture and you record it and you put it into AI so you can read it, everyone's like, yay, look at you, coping strategy. You can participate. If you can't listen well and you put it in and you record it and then you put it in AI and have it summarized and everyone's like, oh, that's cheating. You're lazy. Why? Right. Because you can see the other person's disability and you can't see his.

1:00:15Jordan Harbinger:So one's lying and one's not. That's like yelling at somebody who parks in a handicap spot and going, you don't probably have arthritis. You're walking. And it's like, yeah, it hurts. Every step is painful. So I try to walk as little as possible. Go park further away. I can't see your arthritis. That's what we're doing to these people.

1:00:30Gabriel Mizrahi:And you know what? You can really see what the other side's arguing. Yeah. He's making some good points. That's what notebook LLM would say.

1:00:36Jordan Harbinger:Anyway, I wonder if we put all this together, this could become a part of a new system for you. Let's say you're listening to the show. What if you tried taking notes while you listened? You dropped them into an AI tool. You sent a summary to people you think would benefit from them. Then you know you need to be paying attention. Your notes aren't just an excuse to focus for yourself. You're also creating content. And then you can save those notes and refer back to them regularly so you can remember what you learned. This is why I'm able to focus on audiobooks. One, they're audiobooks. But two, I know I've got to take notes on them because I've got to do a show about it.

1:01:05Jordan Harbinger:So I do focus on the book more than if I was just passively listening in the car. So there's your focus training, your processing, and your networking taken care of in one fell swoop. I would also consider definitely being assessed by a psychologist, but only if you think the label is going to be useful to you. If it's just going to give you permission to go, well, can't concentrate, have ADD, never going to work on this. If you're going to use it to let yourself off the hook completely, that's not going to do much for you. If it's only going to stress you out or it's going to create more resentment or embarrassment, maybe skip it.

1:01:34Jordan Harbinger:But if the label helps you find the resources you need, coaches, books, communities, other people with ADD, certain allowances or structures at school, a therapist who specializes in neurodivergence, that's a good reason to find out. And it's all about what you do with these labels. And honestly, you might not even need a label to make progress here. But listen, just the fact that you're noticing this tendency, that you're seeing the costs, that's frankly a huge step. I can hear that you're motivated to work on this. Your motivation is about getting the most out of your media and your interactions, which I think is awesome.

1:02:05Jordan Harbinger:And that tells me that you want to have fulfilling experiences, and that is going to take you very far. So stay connected to that. Put in the work. Find that balance between self-acceptance and self-improvement, which we all have to do in every area of our life. And I think you'll be amazed by what you can do. Good luck. All right. Now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler. That soundbite hits different today. R.I.P. to our boy. I can't believe we're saying this. So for people who are not in the subreddit and slash don't follow celebrity gossip, which is probably most of you, crazy story.

1:02:38Jordan Harbinger:So the guy who said, I am addicted to lip filler, his name is Jordan James Park. He weirdly died six days ago. He was 34. The investigation is still going on. There's no formal cause of death yet. But I guess there are reports that he might have undergone some kind of cosmetic procedure before he died. Two people, a 43-year-old man and a 52-year-old woman, they were arrested on suspicion of manslaughter, which is kind of fascinating because a couple years ago, Jordan himself was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter after a 33-year-old mother of five died. She was getting something called a liquid BBL at a clinic he ran.

1:03:17Jordan Harbinger:I guess it's where they inject a bunch of filler into your butt. And he wasn't ultimately charged in that case, but he was scheduled to answer bail next month, which in England, that basically means returning to the police station on the date you were required to come back after being released. So I don't know all the details of that botched procedure, but the fact that he might have slash probably died after his own procedure, it's just sort of weirdly karmic. I don't mean he deserved it or anything. I'm just saying it's all ironic. The subreddit found this and somebody was like, oh, no wonder the licensing of the soundbite got easier.

1:03:49Jordan Harbinger:Come on, guys. No, it didn't get easier because he's dead. It got easier because he wasn't in jail anymore. And I sent him a message on Instagram and he replied. I didn't wait until he croaked. Give me a little credit, folks. Anyway, strange and fascinating story. Don't know quite what to make of this guy. I mean, he's just such a, he's a strange duck. I don't want to speculate too much, but Godspeed, Jordan James Park.

1:04:10Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah. Our patron saint of Wreck of the Week for now and evermore.

1:04:13Jordan Harbinger:So I thought, okay, we do this soundbite. It's a throwaway. And then when we stopped using it, people were like, wait, wait, wait, where's the soundbite? Where's our boy? He's going to live on forever in that iconic soundbite. Anyway, my recommendation of the week is, speaking of focus, the reduced interruptions focus on your Mac and iPhone. So a focus is like do not disturb or, you know, regular rigor on whatever. Most people have heard of do not disturb and they either use that or they're just available to everyone all the time. So it's off. This feature called reduced interruptions, it allows you to pick who can text you, who can call you.

1:04:49Jordan Harbinger:And you can say like, If anybody calls me twice in a row, it breaks through within three minutes. It takes five minutes to set up. It's a game changer. You can also select which apps can notify you. Yes, I want to get texts. No, I don't want to get email notifications or whatever. If you have Android, I'm pretty sure there's something similar to this. This feature is so money. It's so important for getting stuff done while also protecting your focus and your time. Basically, if you set this up, instead of getting distracted every five minutes because frigging hungry panda wants to tell me about a deal on bubble tea or I've got my phone on Do Not Disturb and I check it three hours later to find out that Jen's been locked out of the house the whole time and couldn't reach me, you kind of find this happy medium where the people and apps that you actually want to hear from, they can reach you and everyone else just goes straight to voicemail or it hits your phone with no notification.

1:05:36Jordan Harbinger:I don't know how it took me so dang long to optimize this, but I had my phone on Do Not Disturb for like a decade. This is a far better compromise. I am a big, big fan of this feature. It's a game changer. So enjoy. And if none of that works to improve your focus, amphetamines never killed anyone, right? Citation needed. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Audible. I burn through at least two audiobooks a week prepping for the show, and let's be real, there is just no timeline where I'm sitting down and staring at a page. That's not how I learn at all. Audio is my mode. I'm listening on Audible while I'm getting my 10 ,000 steps in, sipping coffee on the couch, all while jotting notes down into my phone.

1:06:15Jordan Harbinger:Honestly, I wish I'd had Audible back in the day instead of zoning out to hours of mindless TV. Imagine how much smarter I could have turned out. Listening on Audible feels like downloading knowledge straight into my head. Lately, I've been into Michael Aaron Flicker and Richard Schottens Hacking the Human Mind. Super fascinating stuff on influence, decision making, what actually drives people. And Audible's well-being collection goes way beyond that. Brene Brown, Jamie Oliver on nutrition, even nature sleep sounds from the sleeping world. Whatever supports your mindset, health, or daily routine, Audible has it.

1:06:42Jordan Harbinger:Membership is$14.95 a month. After 30 days, you can cancel any time. Audible, there's more to imagine when you listen. Kickstart your well-being journey with your first audiobook free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com slash JHS. This episode is also sponsored by AG1. When I'm on the road, routines go out the window. Airport food, no sleep, different time zones. You tell yourself you get back on track when you get home, but the truth is, consistency is what actually keeps you feeling good. That's where AG1 can make life easier. AG1 is a daily health drink clinically shown to support gut health and fill common nutrient gaps.

1:07:12Jordan Harbinger:It's got 75-plus ingredients, including five clinically studied probiotic strains. instead of packing a multivitamin. Why do they say 75 plus? Why don't they just say like 76, 77? Instead of packing a multivitamin, probiotics, and whatever else you think you need, it's one scoop, done. They've even got travel packs, which are easy to throw in your bag. Just shake it up with a bottle of water. Your bases are covered. What I appreciate most about AG1 is simplicity. Most supplement routines are complicated, makes it not sustainable long-term. AG1 simplifies it. Vitamins, minerals, pre - and probiotics, superfoods, antioxidants, all in one.

1:07:40Gabriel Mizrahi:Go to drinkag1.com slash Jordan to get an AG1 flavor sampler and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 for free in your AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. Only while supplies last. That's drinkag1.com slash Jordan.

1:07:56Jordan Harbinger:If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment, support our sponsors. They're all linked, searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If that doesn't work, email us jordan at jordanharbinger.com. We'll dig up the code for you. It's that important that you support those who support the show.

1:08:17Gabriel Mizrahi:All right, what's next? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I've been friendly with my manager for many years and considered her almost a mentor. She usually has great advice, treats all of us with respect, and seems to truly care about our development. Then recently, I went to her for advice after a meeting with a team lead, who's not in my chain of command, in which this team lead was incredibly combative and angry, and spoke to me in a raised voice that allowed me little time to reply to her accusations. The main one was that I was setting up meetings with our VP on a joint project without her, and she doesn't like being left out.

1:08:53Gabriel Mizrahi:I hadn't set up any meetings with our VP at all. The VP had set up meetings with me, and I'm pretty sure this team lead was in each one. My role in this project is just to make sure that we meet our deadline. My organization does not support speaking to each other the way the team lead spoke to me. If I had spoken half as rudely to anyone else in the office, I would have been in a lot of trouble. When I finally replied calmly to the team lead, she seemed to believe me. We parted ways and she was much calmer, but I don't trust that things are actually okay. The problem is, she complained about me to my manager before I was able to ask my manager for advice.

1:09:29Gabriel Mizrahi:By the time I talked to my manager, she let me know that she was getting complaints about me, and that I needed to fix things. She wouldn't even try to give advice or comment on the horrible meeting with the team lead. She only listened to my story to point at language that suggested I was trying to quote, further my own agenda and quote, ignoring the interests of others, unquote, which were the specific complaints that my manager had received. I left that meeting feeling like a horrible person. My manager did have some good ideas on routinely touching base with colleagues. I admit I should work harder to get to know them.

1:10:03Gabriel Mizrahi:But when I asked for advice on how to approach the situation with the team lead, she said I could try something, but it doesn't mean I'll avoid a conflict like it again. Now I feel I can't trust my manager anymore. I want to tell her how her reaction made me feel, how disappointed I am that she couldn't even try to give me advice on managing the situation. But the couple trusted peers I've confided in say that I should just let it go. I think I'm grieving a great relationship with my manager.

1:10:32Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, really good insight. I love that you're already onto this.

1:10:35Gabriel Mizrahi:Is there a way to fix my relationship with my manager? Should I throw away years of trust over one terrible event? Is there a way to talk to her without making things worse? Signed, a professional starting to quaver and hoping to be braver after apparently falling out of favor.

1:10:52Jordan Harbinger:Interesting situation. Lots going on. Let's try to cut to the chase. So first off, being chewed out at work, I think we can all agree, never fun. It's unpleasant. It's a little scary. It sounds like this conflict was particularly difficult given the way it went down. So I'm sorry that happened. And this team lead, look, we only have your story to go on, but she sounds frankly annoying, a little paranoid. And even if she had a point, it sounds to me like she didn't handle this conversation very well. You attending meetings with this VP without her, that clearly did not sit well with her. It sounds like her read on all this is that you were being political and or self-interested, not a team player.

1:11:28Jordan Harbinger:You're saying, I was just there to get this thing across the finish line. I had no other motive. So honestly, I have no idea if this team lead had a point. I can't tell if she was justifiably angry about being excluded from a meeting she needed to be in, or if she was just responding to you from a place of insecurity, which I know is very common in companies. And part of the reason I could never work in one again, of course, it could easily be both. But then you had that conversation with your manager, she didn't respond to you the way that you'd hoped and you feel she didn't really have your back.

1:11:56Jordan Harbinger:Again, in the interest of total fairness, I don't know if that's because she kind of sided with the team lead or because she wasn't really listening to you, taking you seriously, or because she had 17 other things to deal with and she didn't have time to get into this with you. All could be true. But that's not really what your letter is about. I think what your letter is really about is what it's like to be in conflict with colleagues and the disappointment and sadness at not being protected by your manager who you've come to look to for guidance and for support. So Gabe, which one holds the key here?

1:12:26Jordan Harbinger:Where do we dig in?

1:12:26Gabriel Mizrahi:I don't know. Take your pick. They might be two different doors to the same room, really.

1:12:30Jordan Harbinger:I'll start by saying, I think I share her peers' opinion that she shouldn't take this to her manager right now. I agree with that. It's not that she doesn't have a point. It sounds like her manager could have been a lot more generous and helpful with her advice, even if she did think our friend was in the wrong. But I don't think that's the person she needs to repair with. I think the person she needs to repair with is this team lead. And the best way to do that is just to tell her, look, I hear you loud and clear. You want to be in these meetings with a VP? Fine with me. I'm going to invite you to all of them or tell you when they're happening.

1:12:57Jordan Harbinger:and you can tell me if you'd like to join. Sorry for giving you the wrong impression. It was truly unintentional. And then, you know what? Do that. Show her you're not trying to sideline or sabotage her. You're interested in being collaborative. You're taking a real interest in her and her goals at this company. And all you want to do is help them get this project across the finish line. That should patch things up.

1:13:16Gabriel Mizrahi:And then her manager will probably see that and go, oh, okay, cool. Laura's got this. She's taking responsibility. She's learning. She's not running to me to solve everything for her. Solid employee. We're good. I've forgotten already.

1:13:27Jordan Harbinger:Exactly. And if she needs to put a bow on it, in a few weeks she can go to her manager like, hey, I just wanted to let you know Tina and I sorted things out. Happy to fill you in on why they played out the way they did if you want, but bottom line, we're in sync now. It won't happen again. Sorry you got dragged into it. If her goal is to really fix the relationship with her manager, the best thing she can do is take concrete steps to address the situation on her own.

1:13:47Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, not just talk about it more. I totally agree. Part of me also wonders if she even really needs to fix anything with her manager.

1:13:53Jordan Harbinger:I know what you mean. It almost feels like she's spinning out and doing a lot of work around this somehow, but I can't quite put my finger on why.

1:13:59Gabriel Mizrahi:Well, I don't know exactly why either. That's going to be for her to figure out. But what I'm hearing in the story is, well, a few things. First of all, she got tangled up with this team lead. That person kind of tore into her mostly unfairly, maybe entirely unfairly, and then compromised her reputation with her manager, which sucks. But that really seems to have done a number on her. So much so, let's remember that she left that meeting feeling like a horrible person.

1:14:22Jordan Harbinger:You know, that did jump out at me too. When you read that part, I was like, I get feeling a little bit bad or feeling exposed, but a horrible person? Why?

1:14:29Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, there's like a whole judgment and maybe a shame piece attached to that, right? So the sense that I'm getting is that our friend here is very vulnerable to other people's opinions of her, very concerned about, you know, her standing in the office with her colleagues and maybe being accused of being political and not collaborative. I wonder if that hurt, not in a, oh, this feels bad, this feels gross, but, you know, I'll be okay. I just need to give them a chance to calm down, show them I'm not that person, we're going to be okay. But in a like, oh, this conflict is dangerous. Like this is irreparable.

1:15:02Gabriel Mizrahi:These opinions are fatal and I must be at fault. I'm the worst.

1:15:05Jordan Harbinger:Right, right. Which has got to go back a long way, no?

1:15:08Gabriel Mizrahi:Usually, yeah. And again, only she can know for sure. But I think when we have this strong of a reaction, it's helpful to remember that our capacity for conflict with other people, our capacity to bear the negative opinions or feelings about us, that almost always depends on the quality of our early primary relationships.

1:15:25Jordan Harbinger:Mom, dad, siblings, caregivers, etc.

1:15:28Gabriel Mizrahi:All of the above. Yeah, they're all with us at work, weirdly enough. So if she's looking for an explanation for why she feels so extremely anxious or why she feels so guilty, this I must be a horrible person thing in general, she might want to look back a long way. But it's interesting you bring up mom Jordan, because when she was describing this relationship with her manager, I was thinking mom vibes, right? Major mom vibes. Major mom vibes. I do wonder if this manager is a kind of surrogate mother to her, or she's maybe taken on shades of a parent figure. I mean, how did she describe her again?

1:15:59Gabriel Mizrahi:She said she usually has great advice. She treats us all with respect. Yeah, it sounds sort of mom-ish to me. And not just a mom, but kind of like an amazing mom, like maybe even an idealized mom, right? She clearly looks up to this woman. She values her advice and support. She needs her.

1:16:14Jordan Harbinger:Right. Well, she considers her a mentor.

1:16:15Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, all very interesting and also all very normal. We fall into these templates with other people based on our early relationships, our needs and our wounds, of course. And so we could probably talk for hours about idealization and what causes it. It's actually super interesting. But my sense is that when this manager didn't really have her back, that didn't just register as disappointment. It registered as something more profound, like abandonment.

1:16:38Jordan Harbinger:Totally. Mom was not there for me.

1:16:39Gabriel Mizrahi:Mom wasn't there for me. And mom is not as perfect as I thought she was. So this whole event kind of shattered her idealization of her boss.

1:16:48Jordan Harbinger:That's the grief she was referring to.

1:16:50Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah. Although she talked about as grieving a great relationship with her manager, I think that's one big layer of it. But underneath that, I wonder if there's maybe a deeper grief about losing the idealized image of her and what that meant to her, like how her manager might have kept her feeling safe or supported or propped up, protected in the office. And now that's gone, or at least it's changed.

1:17:12Jordan Harbinger:Which sounds like a big loss for her.

1:17:13Gabriel Mizrahi:It does. I mean, to be fair, that can be extremely, you know, destabilizing, kind of terrifying and painful, depending on what your past is. And then it gives rise to all these other feelings, shame, guilt, fear, sadness.

1:17:25Jordan Harbinger:All of which do seem to be in the mix here.

1:17:27Gabriel Mizrahi:And this impulse to work very hard to win the mother figure back over to get back in her good graces, maybe to recreate the idealization because the loss is just so painful. I think that's what you were picking up on a moment ago, Jordan. You said she's spinning out and doing a lot of work here. This might be the work that she's trying to do.

1:17:44Jordan Harbinger:Yeah, now that makes a lot more sense. So it feels like a workplace conflict, but it's actually this Freudian clusterfuck.

1:17:50Gabriel Mizrahi:I think so. All of life is a Freudian clusterfuck, really. We're all children. Deep down, right? The history follows us everywhere. Can't escape it, I guess. Nope. But crises like these are really good opportunities to see this stuff more clearly. my hunch is that her manager and this team lead have just like recreated her family system somehow in ways that we don't fully understand right there in the office.

1:18:13Jordan Harbinger:It's fascinating. And yeah, I agree. It's important for her to see. It's just painful. But so, okay, what's the solution to losing an idealized relationship then? Do you just let go of the idea that this person you look up to is perfect? Do you just accept they're flawed?

1:18:26Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, but actually I think it's more the second thing, accepting that they're flawed. Idealization says mommy is perfect, daddy is perfect, boyfriend is perfect, whoever it is. Perfect means they don't have flaws or limitations or contradictions. So I can love them and depend on them without having to feel the anxiety of being in a relationship with all of them, meaning the entirety of them. De-idealization, reality, means integrating all of these parts of a person and then loving them, you know, spite of those contradictions or maybe even because of those contradictions. That's what a fully developed adult does.

1:19:00Jordan Harbinger:So she could still have a good relationship with her manager.

1:19:03Gabriel Mizrahi:Absolutely. It won't be the same relationship, but I think it'll be a better relationship because it'll be a more truthful relationship and therefore, you know, more mature.

1:19:11Jordan Harbinger:So she'll have to relate to her manager as a person who can be really great sometimes and sometimes can be, I don't know, you name it, short, distant, overwhelmed.

1:19:19Gabriel Mizrahi:Unavailable, inconsistent, impatient sometimes. Exactly right.

1:19:22Jordan Harbinger:Right. And that's going to require her to be able to tolerate all of those qualities too.

1:19:26Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, exactly. When she says, should I throw away years of trust over one terrible event? I would say, no, not at all. You don't. But the trust that you had in her was probably based in part on an inaccurate picture of who your manager is, incomplete picture. And the fact that you feel you might have to throw it all away now, that might reflect a certain anxiety you have about being in conflict with people in general, like Jordan said, but also of being in relationship with a flawed figure like this fully.

1:19:53Jordan Harbinger:There's an either or thing there. Either manager and I are amazing and we have total trust or we're no longer close and I have to throw it all away.

1:20:00Gabriel Mizrahi:Yes. And you can imagine how that picture gets developed if you come from a background where people were not consistently close with you through conflict, where you could still feel safe and protected even when there was a problem. Exactly right. So that kind of black or white thinking is a huge part of what she's writing in about. We've gone on a long time about this, so I don't want to bang on about this, but I feel very strongly that one of the big projects of growing up is making this transition in our relationships so that we can be in a real relationship with all of somebody, not just the parts of them that are convenient or not just the idea that we have of them, not just the parts of them that support a narrative about who they are, you know, the idealized version of them, but them for who they actually are.

1:20:41Jordan Harbinger:Just one more reason to not talk to her manager directly about all this.

1:20:46Gabriel Mizrahi:Agreed. I would not go to her and be like, you know, before I totally idealized you, but now I see your flaws and I love all of you.

1:20:51Jordan Harbinger:Yes. No, this is an

1:20:52Gabriel Mizrahi:inside job, I think, at least for the moment.

1:20:54Jordan Harbinger:Best not to work out your mommy issue with the boss until you've got a good handle on it. Yes. But everything we're talking about can happen on your side of the equation. And almost everything with your manager and your team lead will start to settle and repair on its own. That got intense, Gabe. I'm going to need a little palate cleanser after that. I thought we were just going to talk about some office drama, I guess. I don't know.

1:21:13Gabriel Mizrahi:Feedback Friday, baby. When your manager is mad at you, that's mommy. And when your team lead turns on you, that's your sibling. Sorry, that's how it works.

1:21:19Jordan Harbinger:Well, thanks for letting us, Lydia, you, my friend. Lots to learn here. A lot of room to grow. You got this and good luck. Go back and check out the episode with Nir Eyal on the science of belief if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself. The drills take a few minutes a day. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. 6minutenetworking.com is where you can find it. Show notes on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:21:50Jordan Harbinger:I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram, Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Sidlowskis, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. And I'm a lawyer, but not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, hey, share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today.

1:22:20Jordan Harbinger:In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. If you like the show, there's another podcast you should check out. If you want to stay informed about what's happening around the world without drowning in noise, check out the President's Daily Brief. It's built for people who want the big stories fast and clear. Think 20 minutes in the morning, then a quick 10 minute update in the afternoon. Just focused coverage of the developments shaping the world right now from the Middle East and Venezuela to China, Russia, and beyond, with an emphasis on what actually has real-world consequences for the United States.

1:22:51Jordan Harbinger:The show's hosted by Mike Baker, a veteran of the CIA with decades of firsthand experience, so you're getting smart analysis from somebody who's been inside the system. You get straightforward context to help you understand what's happening and why it matters. Follow The President's Daily Brief wherever you get your podcasts, and stay ahead of the curve.

1:23:13Jordan Harbinger:This episode is sponsored in part by Little Sleepies. If you got kids, you already know the truth. Bedtime can turn onto a full-on negotiation. But one thing that's been a reliable win in our house is Little Sleepies pajamas. We're fans of Little Sleepies for years. Before they even sponsored the show, Jen fell hard for the adorable prince, grabbed a couple pairs, and then it basically spiraled from there. Now you've got a whole drawer full of them. The kids have the cutest matching sets. And yes, we've even gone full family matching pajamas. Kind of fun, not going to lie. And the fabric is the real deal.

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1:24:14Jordan Harbinger:Quick break to put you onto another show you should be listening to. If you enjoyed my interview with Javier Lleva about romance scams back on episode 1195, you'll want to check out his podcast, Pretend. Javier is an investigative journalist who lives in the world of lies, manipulation and deception. But he's still a nice guy. And on Pretend, he doesn't just tell these stories. He gets inside them. He talks directly to scammers, cult leaders, and the people they've conned. He just has a way of getting them to reveal things that'll make you go, wait, okay, you're just going to admit that? And the cases are bananas, a cyber-stalking story where the victims turned out to be the stalkers, a true crime podcaster accused of harassing victims for content.

1:24:49Jordan Harbinger:No, it's not him. And Javier spending a day with a cult leader. Yes, including an exorcism. That must have been a fun afternoon. Plus, he digs into the real Frank Abagnale from Catch Me If You Can. Let's just say the movie took some liberties. Pretend has been featured on Netflix's Don't Pick Up the Phone. Spotify tagged it as a breakout hit, and it's consistently up there with the top true crime shows. Search Pretend wherever you get your podcasts.