1303: Self-Invited Guest Puts Friendship to the Test | Feedback Friday

20:22Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, man, I've been in New York all of this week. It's been amazing. And I'm flying to Brazil tomorrow. All right, what's the plan? buy a compound in Bahia, start a breathwork cult, live off maracuja or whatever it is for the rest of your natural life. Maracuja. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That compound, maybe breathwork. Yep. Bit of that cult. No, way too much work. Exactly. That's where I've fallen on cults. Just too much work. Who has the time? Too much admin. Not me. 100 % to the maracuja. Yeah. You know me well. So the plan is I'm going to start in Bahia and then I'm going to work my way south. Rio de Janeiro, Florianopolis, I might check out Uruguay.

21:00Gabriel Mizrahi:I've never been. I've heard good things. I know very little about it. Possibly Buenos Aires. We'll see. And then I'm going to go to Chile. I have this friend, Sebastian. Dude, speaking of your travels, I think you can relate to this. This is one of those people. I've met this guy once while I was traveling three, four or five years ago, and we are just bonded for life. We still talk on WhatsApp all the time, but I've only seen him once in my life. And he and his family live in the countryside on a lake and it looks beautiful. So I'm going to go see him and then maybe explore around Chile, which I've never been to.

21:27Gabriel Mizrahi:And then And after that, it's just kind of up in the air. I might finally do Machu Picchu, which I've been to Peru so many times. I've never done those big things or, you know, hike the Inca Trail or something. Might stop in Mexico City and hang with my family there for a few days. It just all depends how much energy I have. And I don't know if work pulls me back to LA sooner, but I will be back in LA by June. Nice. Maybe you can check out Patagonia since you're going to be in Chile and Argentina. I'm thinking about it. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you about that. It looks incredible. We'll talk more about that.

21:54Gabriel Mizrahi:Anyway, if anyone listening right now lives in any of these places, these cities or any other cities in these countries that I'm visiting, please say hello. I would love to connect with listeners in South America. I've only met one or two of you guys in person, so that would be really cool. You can email me Friday at Jordan Harbinger dot com or just find me on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. I would love to link. Live in the dream, Gabe, or a dream. I know nomading is also I can't even say nomading because my nose is totally closed up. It's a nomading. No bad dig is also kind of a nightmare sometimes, but what a nightmare to have, eh?

22:25Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm excited, man. I'm grateful to be doing this while I can. I don't know if I always will be able to. And yeah, in the meantime, the breath work does help. Yep. Get that O2, bro. Get that O2 in those nose, baby. One last thing. Big shout out to Annabelle, Charlotte, Oliver, and Madeline, show fans from Toronto who are probably listening to this in the car on their way to sports practice or something. Appreciate you guys listening so much, spending so much time with us. It does mean a lot. No trigger warnings for today's episode. Sorry to disappoint everybody. Nothing too dark here so you guys can enjoy the Deuce Cruise today stress-free no matter who's riding with you.

22:55All right, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mailbag?

22:58Gabriel Mizrahi:Dear Jordan and Gabe, for about a decade, my fiancé and I lived in a small German town where we were part of a tight-knit friend group. One member of that group, let's call him Steve, is a classic high-energy extrovert. Yes, Steve, a classic German name. He's a big ideas guy who's always launching a new business plan and loves giving unsolicited advice. he's a nice guy, but he can be a bit much. Kind of sounds like every coked-up banker or crypto bro that I knew in New York. Carry on. Four years ago, we moved to a major city to start our careers. We've since gotten engaged and are currently in the thick of family planning.

23:34Gabriel Mizrahi:During this time, we invited Steve and his wife to visit several times, but we were met with two years of radio silence. Then, out of the blue, Steve recently reached out. He expects to start a new job in our town near us, and, without asking, informed me over the phone that he'll be living with us. And at the same time, maintaining his residency back home in order to commute back and forth between his new job and his wife, he has decided that it's quote-unquote unnecessary to get his own place and just assumed our couch was his new HQ for the foreseeable future. This person is insane. The balls on this guy, man.

24:11Chutzpah. The gall. The gall, yes.

24:14Gabriel Mizrahi:ghosts you for two years and then pops up like, hey, I'm squatting in your house now. Yeah. Can you stock the fridge for me? Bye. There's something. Yeah, exactly. There's something wrong with this guy. This is a level. And I know this word gets thrown around a lot. This is a level of narcissism or misattunement that is just pathological. How unselfaware and or shamelessly self-interested do you have to be to pop up out of nowhere? Like, hey, I'm just going to crash on your couch. Not even like, can I crash on your couch? but I'm just, this IKEA couch is my new headquarters, rent-free. Oh, and BT dubs, my bad on ignoring you for two years.

24:47I just had better things to do than keep in touch with friends I later planned to mooch off of.

24:52Gabriel Mizrahi:Having a permanent guest is a non-starter for us. Yeah, that's called a roommate, by the way, not a permanent guest. That's just a roommate that doesn't pay rent. We both have busy full-time jobs and love to come home to our peaceful nest. On top of that, we live in a quiet suburban community of curious retirees. As an interracial couple, we already stand out. and bringing a third adult into the house would definitely set the neighborhood gossip mill grinding. Oh, that's hilarious. Hey, did you see the brown guy and the white girl are in a thruple with some German guy now? That's the gossip you want around town.

25:23Gabriel Mizrahi:That HOA is going to be interesting. Plus, we're trying to start a family. The last thing we want is Steve and his boxers in our living room while we're navigating this chapter. No kidding. Seriously. Yelling from the living room. Hey, Chelsea, you ovulating? Are you ovulating? Are you ovulating? as he goes to town on a bowl of cinnamon toast crunch in his fruit of the lunch. No, thank you. Exactly. While they have conception sex on the other side of inch thick drywall, half inch thick drywall. It's going to be a no for me, dog. Yeah. Das is going to be a nine for me, mein Hund.

26:01Gabriel Mizrahi:Mein Hund. Oh, I love that. Mein Hund. I don't know if you could actually say that in German. My dog. I don't care. It's perfect. that's my new nickname for you my friend so he goes on steve is the type of person who finds a way to get what he wants once his mind is made up okay so steve can also be the type of person who has the door slammed in his face when he tries to move into your home without being invited just saying correct yep we've considered using a white lie such as the landlord let's be pc here it's a mixed race lie oh good catch thank you i'm glad you caught that we've considered using a mixed race lies, such as the landlords not approving of such an arrangement, but we want to handle this without unnecessary drama and as honest adults.

26:44Gabriel Mizrahi:Right. How do we tell a high steam idea man that his plan, this is so funny. This is the idea man has an idea that he's going to mooch off of us. Like this is not, you can't chalk this up to the fact that this guy just gets excited about his notions. Right. How do we tell a high steam idea man that his plan is a no go without nuking the friendship. Signed, finding the words to make this guy infer that he cannot be our third. Okay, I feel like this might be a short one. I know it's going to go longer because I'm so worked up about this dude. You have Hundface. I do have Hundface. I'm sorry you have to deal with this, obviously.

27:19Super weird, incredibly awkward, but this guy is so out of pocket here that I actually don't think this is that hard. If this were me, I would literally be like, sorry Steve-O, it's a no-go. I understand you want a convenient place but you're going to have to figure that out on your own. Man, we're engaged, we're starting the next chapter of our lives, we want our place to be our place. I'm sure you understand. That's really all you have to say. If you wanted to, and what I would love to do if I were in your shoes, I would also say, and honestly man, the way you've framed this arrangement, this request really is bizarre and presumptuous.

27:52Just announcing that you're moving in, not even asking if we're open to having a roommate, especially after ghosting us for two years. And I respectfully encourage you to consider how this might come across to people you consider friends.

28:05Gabriel Mizrahi:Oh, nice. Yeah, I'm with you. I think this dude needs to hear that from somebody. Somebody needs to check him because this is legitimately insane. Agreed. And then I'd be prepared for a timeline where the friendship is just over. I have a feeling this guy's not going to respond well to this. Gabe, a guy who ghosts you for two years and then does something like this, he didn't reply for two years because he didn't have a need for you. You were not useful to him. Then as soon as he decided to live in your area, he was like, oh yeah, I need to use these people for something. So here's what I'm going to do.

28:35It didn't even occur to him that you also have agency and could say, no, this person is damaged. You don't want somebody like this in your house.

28:41Gabriel Mizrahi:What kind of friendship is this in the first place? This is the opposite of digging the well before you're, this is digging the well when you're very parched and also when the well is a couch that you want to sleep on. Honestly, good riddance, dude. I don't really understand why you would feel the need to stay on good terms with a person like this in the first place. No. At first he sounded annoying and inflated and misattuned, but now he sounds manipulative and presumptuous, straight up. I just, ugh, no. I thought it was interesting when our friend said that they've considered using a white lie to get out of this when they don't need that.

29:09Gabriel Mizrahi:I think that's telling. First of all, they're on such solid ground in saying no here to your point. I don't think they need a white lie, but the answer is no. We don't want to form an asexual polycule with you, Steve. Find a studio apartment close to work, leave us alone. But second, I understand not wanting to cause unnecessary drama, and I think Jordan's script is a really good way to do that. But if what you're saying is that you want to avoid any conflict whatsoever, which I do get the sense that you're hoping to sidestep with this landlord excuse idea, then I would encourage you to lean into that because it's called for.

29:40Exactly. And the only way to lean into this is to do it with a Steve and find out that it's more than okay to have a perfectly reasonable boundary.

29:48Gabriel Mizrahi:Of course. I do wonder if the desire to keep the peace and avoid drama and all of that might be in part what made Steve think he could get away with this in the first place. Yeah, I think that's likely. A person like Steve probably isn't going to pull this move with somebody who gently checked him in the past or called him out at a dinner party for giving unsolicited advice or gave up trying to be friends when he ghosted for two years. He's going to do this kind of crap with that sweet couple who's super accommodating and never says no. Not that those aren't virtues in the right amounts, of course, but if they don't have a limit, if they're not balanced by a basic ability to stand up for yourself in some basic ways with a person like this, then they can leave you quite vulnerable.

30:22Exactly, for sure. My feeling is that it would be reckless to allow a person like this into your home even for a few days. And honestly, my fear is that if you're like, okay, man, we'll give you three days, maybe a week, whatever it is, he's just going to show up, he's going to stall, and then he's going to stay. And then suddenly you're in a nightmare. I wouldn't even open the door to this guy. But I'm actually kind of excited for you to tell this guy no, both because he desperately needs to hear it and because I think it'll be a big step for you and your fiancé. Congrats on getting engaged. Enjoy that highly orchestrated, time-boxed hanky-panky.

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33:54Gabriel Mizrahi:was very close with his family. His mom, dad, and two younger sisters all lived in the home as well. His sister Mandy is the middle child and is four years younger than Jim. Before I met Jim, they did everything together, to the point that if you didn't know they were siblings, you'd think they were dating. Those behaviors carried on well after I moved in with Jim, which caused some friction in our relationship. Jim never had any serious girlfriends before me and always said it was because he never found anybody worthwhile. I could see right away after meeting Mandy that it was because of how overbearing and overprotective she was, coupled with Jim's extremely close relationship with her.

34:32Gabriel Mizrahi:When I was first introduced to her, it was clear that she was trying to intimidate me. She was loud, always talking about the fights she'd been in or how she told someone off, making inside jokes with Jim that I wouldn't understand, and just generally trying to make me feel left out. And it worked. I did not feel welcomed or accepted, and I have a feeling that was her goal, her way of marking her territory with her brother. After years of reflection, I feel like she was jealous of another woman having a relationship with her brother, so she was trying to scare me away like she had done to others in the past.

35:07Interesting. Hard to tell if this was truly designed to box you out or just them being weirdly close and you feeling like the outsider. Always hard to know how intentional this stuff is, but I hear you. Mandy's challenging and it sounds like there's a history of this, all of which is interesting.

35:22Gabriel Mizrahi:Mandy has had a pattern her whole life of overreacting to little things that most people would brush off or acting out aggressively when faced with conflict. By the time she reached her early 20s, Mandy had been in many physical altercations where she was the aggressor. Okay. And those stories are always shared in a joking manner by her and her family. This is weird, man. Physical fighting as a grown-ass woman, that is crazy work. And the family's just like, oh my God, remember the time Mandy threw a beer on someone at the Tigers game and then she kicked him in the face? Oh, Mandy, you're such a kook.

35:55Gabriel Mizrahi:That is weird as hell. Her family has always excused her behavior by saying, that's just how Mandy is. You know what? I could have predicted that. Dude, I can't with that. Yeah, that's just my favorite justification for somebody being out of their mind. That's just how Mandy is. Yeah, that's just how she is. And that is the problem. That's literally the problem. How far do you take that logic? Oh, remember when Cousin Andy murdered three people in Reno? He's such a... That's just how he is. That's just how he is. That's just how he is. Never saw a homeless person he didn't want to kidnap and put in the trunk of a car.

36:28I don't know, Andy. What a wild card.

36:31Gabriel Mizrahi:Nope. Andy's a psychopath and his brain needs to be studied in a lab. Exactly. Didn't feel like paying my taxes this year. That's just how I am. You know what I mean? It's such a ridiculous cop-out and it doesn't explain anything in any way whatsoever. So all it just says, we're just enabling this because nobody has the guts to say anything. Yeah, it's not just how she is. It's how you are for seeing it. That's the fact that that's just how she is. She's also notorious for sending mile-long text messages to people she has an issue with and does not shy away from petty insults. She has done this to countless friends of Jim's and mine and has done this to me more times than I can count.

37:05Gabriel Mizrahi:To her, it's always the other party's fault. Her reasons for lashing out and being aggressive to people are always justified and she never apologizes. Okay, well, it's official. Mandy's a problem. Kind of take back what I said before. I can see a person like this actively trying to drive away her brother's girlfriend, not just sort of accidentally doing it. What a sister-in-law, man. That's a lot to be up against. Gabe, you have armchair diagnosis face on right now. I think you know which acronym I'm circling. Yeah, circling the B in cluster B that stands for biatch. Exactly. Biatch personality disorder.

37:39Gabriel Mizrahi:The most elusive of the DSM labels. That's right. We're good. Give us those white coats. We got this. We ended up becoming friends shortly after I moved to North Carolina, but then the conflict started. While there are far too many to recount here, I assure you that I could easily write a hundred-page dissertation about all the hurtful things she has said and done to me. Yeah, these people, they don't just do one crappy thing occasionally. This is like their whole personality. My God. I love that she has a PhD in Mandy. Yeah. And her dissertation would still be shorter than a text message from this woman.

38:10That's right. Just drop them into chat GPT like summarize my psycho sister-in-law's latest beef text. Craft a response. Polite but firm. Yeah. Chat GPT be like, whoosh, this one's a spicy meatball. Yeah.

38:22Gabriel Mizrahi:This isn't emotional caretaking. This is strategic family management. That's right. Straight up. Let me know if you want one way to dramatically reduce the chance of setting Mandy off at Thanksgiving. Just say the word. So she goes on. But just like her family, I'm also guilty of bending the knee and placating her. I apologized when I shouldn't have just to keep the peace. So common, the definition of walking on eggshells. I let her gaslight me into thinking I'm a terrible person and that nobody likes me. I truly feel as if she's given me PTSD from all of the times she's mistreated me. I feel uncomfortable in her presence a lot of the time.

38:56Gabriel Mizrahi:I feel like I'm under a microscope when she's around, like she's just looking for something to get upset at me for. I struggle with anxiety and usually tend to be more reserved, but that's especially true if I'm around people I don't feel safe or comfortable around. In the past, she often interpreted my quietness as rudeness and has lectured me on it before. There have been numerous times where I've received long texts from her belittling me for my anxiety and calling me rude for it. I pride myself on being a pretty self-aware person. I'm very cognizant of how I come across to people. Even when I'm anxious, I know that I'm not rude or snappy.

39:31Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm just quiet sometimes. And I really don't see that as a bad thing. She's the only person in my life that has taken this much of an issue with my personality and tried making me feel bad for it. Yeah, sadly very common with this personality type. Yeah, very blamey, very projecty. Yeah, looking for problems. And everything is always the other person's problem. The worst thoughts and feelings get located in the other person because maybe they're too intolerable for her. And it's sad, but it's just very unpleasant. Yeah. Fortunately and unfortunately, Jim has always been the neutral party and the conflict diffuser in his family.

40:08Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, no surprise. Also very common. He's always been responsible for calming Mandy down and making her feel comfortable. It wasn't until I heard other episodes of your show that I learned what enmeshment was. Yes, this is textbook. That perfectly describes Jim and Mandy's relationship, and it gave me a name for the dysfunction I was witnessing. I brought this up with Jim, and he was pretty receptive and agreed that it sounded like him and Mandy. He's done a lot of reflecting recently and has come to the realization that his family dynamic is not what he thought it was. His religious and political views have shifted far away from what he grew up with, and he's been feeling distant from his family.

40:46Yeah, it can be very jarring to suddenly see an old family dynamic clearly. Things can get bumpy when you pull away and try things in a new way, but it does sound like progress.

40:55Gabriel Mizrahi:Although things have been okay for a while, we were recently faced with a conflict regarding his family. I am very outspoken on social media about my distaste for the Trump administration and the recent activities by ICE. Unbeknownst to me, Mandy has been harboring ill feelings about what I've been posting and taking it personally since their side of the family are Trump supporters. It wasn't until, ah, this is interesting, Jordan. So everything we've been talking about up till now has been about like just basic family dynamics, but there's a political divide here that is probably driving a huge wedge between them.

41:28Gabriel Mizrahi:She said that Jim has been moving away from his family religiously and politically, so this is a whole other layer to the conflict. They probably feel like she is influencing him and taking him away from them, and that's probably making everything worse. Anyway, she goes on. It wasn't until last week when Mandy shared a picture of Trump in our family group chat with the caption, Happy President's Day, that I felt like there was an issue. Given her past behavior, I felt like she shared that picture as a direct dig, and to try to get a rise out of me. Jim felt the same. I ultimately ended up ignoring it because starting an argument about politics in a family group chat is not my style.

42:02Gabriel Mizrahi:But it brought up a lot of painful memories and feelings. It wasn't even about the Trump picture. It was that I felt like she had cruel intentions when sharing it. Yeah, again, I'm fully on your side here with the relationship dynamics, but I also wonder whether that was truly personal. I mean, maybe it was. I wouldn't put it past Mandy at this point, but I also think when things are this bad with someone, it's easy to personalize and read certain things into behavior like this. And if the whole family supports the president, then, you know, maybe that had nothing to do with you. She could have just been and saying it for all of them.

42:33Gabriel Mizrahi:It was about their team, not about her. Exactly. And then that feeds a narrative that's getting stronger. Yeah, I think. And again, look, you may be totally right, but it's something to keep an eye on, because it's really easy to find fault with people who are finding fault with you constantly. I mean, you're going to find what you're looking for. And it doesn't mean you're wrong, but it also might mean that you're super highly attuned. Your Mandy detector is over-calibrated at this point. You know, so you're going to see a lot of that. Jim ended up calling Mandy the next day and told her to keep politics out of family stuff and that if she starts conflict with me over this, he's taking my side and will be done with the family.

43:08Damn. Okay, Jim, that's one way to do it. My man's had enough from the sound of it. I don't know if I would have drawn the line particularly right here, but he's probably just had years and years and years of this

43:16Gabriel Mizrahi:and that was the straw. That was the first time Jim ever truly put his foot down and drew a boundary with his family. And it gave me a confidence I didn't know I needed. Mandy surprisingly received this boundary well, but was still angry with Jim for quote-unquote letting me post the way that I do. Wow, that's a loaded statement. Letting her post. Yeah. That's loaded especially from a fellow woman, no? All I can say is it's an interesting window into her values and beliefs. I mean, or it's, I don't know, it could be a typo, right? I don't know. Now we're reading into it. After all was said and done, the call ended amicably, the boundary was set, and we're letting things cool off for a while before we do any family-related things in person.

43:55Gabriel Mizrahi:Wow. Okay. So, not too bad. This sounds like a win, all things considered. Yeah, not too bad. It sounds pretty good. Maybe Mandy's a bit of a paper tiger, at least when Jim stands up to her. Who knows? I've been dealing with Mandy for eight years now. I'm pleased that Jim has finally reached this point, but as someone who has cut off her own family members before, I know how challenging it is. So she's had pretty serious conflict with her own family members. Okay, there might be something there. Let's come back to that. Given Mandy's personality and history, what is the best approach if-slash-when she violates this boundary?

44:29Gabriel Mizrahi:Jim is close to cutting ties with his family as it is, but is that really necessary right away? Signed, a sister-in-law who's sensitive, looking for the right sedative, to deal with this volatile relative without being argumentative. Oh, boy. Lots going on here. So it goes without saying, having a relative like this, anyone in your life like this, extremely challenging. It's unpleasant. It's stressful. It's not just the conflict. It's the coming up against a very delicate, fragile personality. And the feeling of having to adjust around their many pressure points to keep things on an even keel.

45:03Yeah. Like I said, a very common template, sadly. Obviously, it's not our place to diagnose anyone. We only have your story to go on. But it sounds like Mandy has some real personality stuff going on here. And I agree, Jim's family does sound quite enmeshed, and that creates its own challenges. But that's not all that's going on here. If you want to know more, I would read up on BPD and the Cluster B in general. I'm sure a lot of light bulbs are going to start to go off once you do. But ultimately, your question isn't so much about Mandy. It's about how you interact with her, what she brings out of you, how to deal with her in a way that minimizes your conflict and pain.

45:40The first thing I think you need to understand is Mandy is not going to change. Certainly not because of anything you do or say. I think you know that, but I want you to step into that reality fully here. I think the temptation with people like this is you want to stand up to them. You want to convince them of your point of view. You want to make them see what it's like to be on the receiving end of their rage and their criticism. And I get it, but that's not going to happen. When somebody like Mandy is activated, they are dealing with an intense emotional dysregulation, not a lack of rational evaluation.

46:13Trying to logic them into calming down or being kinder or, you know, not throw beer at people at the Tigers game and kick people in the front row. That makes them feel invalidated or abandoned. And that just escalates the anger. So the only answer with people like this is you gotta be very neutral, you basically validating and just draw simple boundaries. If you talk to her at all, I wouldn't escalate with her, I wouldn't get into anything with her. The best thing you can say when conflicts flare up is stuff like, I can see you're really upset right now. I can see how hurt you feel. I hear you, that you have a different opinion from me, whatever it is.

46:47And I know that can sometimes just sound like nice words. Ideally, you actually mean this stuff. It can take some work to get to a point where you validate somebody like Mandy and you actually mean it, even if you completely disagree with her. And the boundary you're looking for, in my view, it's pretty simple. It's basically, I'm happy to talk about this so we can hopefully resolve it, but I won't stay in the conversation if I'm being yelled at or attacked or criticized or whatever she's doing. And if the yelling or attack or criticism continues, then you follow through and disengage. Okay, I'm gonna step away now.

47:17If you wanna talk about this in a different way later, I'm here for that. It's probably not always easy, especially for somebody who runs anxious, like yourself, somebody who has a long history of traumatizing behavior from this person, but it's at least simple.

47:28Gabriel Mizrahi:Certainly easier than being attacked by someone who isn't actually trying to get anywhere productive with you, who just wants to project and rage because it apparently makes her feel better. For sure. And the more you do this, the easier it'll become, I promise. You're going to be building important muscles here, and those muscles are essential to existing peacefully with a Mandy. Well, let's talk about some of those muscles for a moment. First of all, I just want to say something about Mandy. I know we're coming down hard on her here, and obviously I think her behavior is atrocious. She deserves to be challenged.

47:57Gabriel Mizrahi:She deserves to be held accountable. None of what you're describing is okay or healthy. But as we talk about all the time, anyone who behaves this way - Well, yeah, obviously they're in pain themselves. Severe pain, right? All personality disorders are ultimately caused by trauma early in life. I don't know what happened to Mandy, but I'm sure something did, or some combination of what happened to her and her wiring, whatever it was, and that sucks. BPD, if that is what's going on here, or even if it's something adjacent to it, or whatever that is, it often gets very stigmatized and criticized, and I get it.

48:30Gabriel Mizrahi:It can be scary, it's a lot to handle, but it is all a response to pain. And so as much as I'm saddened by Mandy's behavior and the mark that it's left on you, I also want to make room for the fact that this person is a very troubled person, probably a very scared person, and she does have my empathy for that to some degree. Not for the behavior, but for the cause. No, I appreciate that, Gabe. You're right. I just struggle to understand how somebody like this could walk around shaming people for being quiet and sending 10 page texts about minor hiccups and not go, huh, what's going on with me?

49:02I should talk to someone.

49:03Gabriel Mizrahi:Right. Like, how do you not go? I'm so angry and I'm pretty sure that I'm right. And I'm, you know, I have a good case to make. But if I'm feeling this angry, there must be some reason. Maybe I need to figure that out. No, for sure. But the thing is, for most people with BPD specifically, the central preoccupation is abandonment. Like you said, Jordan, right? Relatively benign events can feel like rejection. Any kind of distance feels like abandonment, especially if it's with a brother you've been close with, overly close with your whole life. And what we would experience as disagreement can feel like attack, like betrayal.

49:36Gabriel Mizrahi:So the person's system is constantly scanning for signs that someone is about to leave or withdraw love or paint them as a villain or whatever. And the central beliefs are, there is something fundamentally wrong with me. If people really knew me, they would leave. And then, you know, there's this whole like unstable identity piece and shifting values and rapidly changing feelings. So it's really hard. So a lot of people have this feeling that the person with BPD is intentionally manipulative, and sometimes they are. But more often, what seems intentional is mostly an automatic response born from a lot of pain, and specifically like a difficulty tolerating shame and this swimmy sense of self that is kind of a hallmark of BPD and just a general lack of tools really for regulating distress.

50:20Gabriel Mizrahi:So I just wanted to take a moment to say that like Mandy is very hurt and remembering that is not just, you know, a compassionate thing to do. It might make it easier to cope with her when she acts like this. Good point. So little of her behavior, arguably none of it, really has to do with you. But then Gabe, it's aimed at her, so it's kind of personal, right? Yeah, so that's true, and to be fair, it is kind of personal to a degree, because she seems to be getting the brunt of it, and she's attacking her for these very personal things, like being quiet or whatever. All that said, I also think that your responses to Mandy are very meaningful, like the ease with which she gaslight you, or actually, I like how she put it, I let her gaslight me, which is a good distinction, into believing that you're a terrible person, that nobody likes you, your general discomfort in her presence, this constant scanning for the next conflict, which I can't say I blame you for after all of this.

51:11Gabriel Mizrahi:And you know, like the way you grow quiet around her because you don't feel safe, which again, I totally understand. I think I have a very similar response around people like this. So I think that's normal. But the particular pain that Mandy seems to have wrought on you when so much of her behavior is ultimately revealing of herself, I think all of that is very useful for you to explore. Because yes, you could say this is an unhealthy person who has brought out parts of me that are foreign and weird and stressful and just like not like me. And maybe that's true. But I also find that certain personalities are particularly susceptible to the Mandis of this world.

51:46Gabriel Mizrahi:And even that the Mandis often look for certain personalities to project onto, and yours might be one of them. Because she's kind, you mean? Because she's sensitive? That's part of it, but also because Mandy probably sees that she has a unique ability to get in with our friend here, to pierce her, right, with her words. I'm kind of wondering if maybe our friend here is a little too permeable herself. Yeah, I could see that. Like, Mandy sees that she easily absorbs her emotions, so she keeps picking fights and projecting onto her because she's an ideal vessel for all that stuff. You know, vessel is a really interesting word.

52:20Gabriel Mizrahi:That's exactly it. Yes. She just wants to dump her emotions into somebody, like into someone else. And it's not just absorbing the emotions, but also taking blame easily, prioritizing harmony over self-protection, feeling responsible to some degree for making sure Mandy is okay. Which, by the way, it sounds like Jim and the rest of his family have learned to do too. So she's not the only one who's falling into this dynamic. Good point. It's another hallmark of certain personalities that they almost unconsciously and implicitly train a number of people around them to adjust to them in these ways.

52:52Gabriel Mizrahi:They end up kind of controlling the other objects in their lives, sometimes without even realizing it. So yeah, this does sound like the family way or whatever. But an interesting thing about people who project in this way also, they tend to both look for people who are natural vessels to project into, and they often bring out that quality in people, including in people who are generally pretty sturdy and grounded in other parts of their lives. Wait, explain that. Like they make people permeable? Yeah, basically there's a process, and it's especially common with projectee personalities like Mandy's, where the Mandy projects, and that starts to chip away at the other person's sense of their own boundaries, their own reality, at which point it becomes much easier for that person to start to identify with the projections.

53:35Gabriel Mizrahi:So the Mandy goes, you're an awful person, you're cruel, you're rude, whatever it is, and the other person starts to go, wow, maybe I am awful. You know, maybe I am cruel. Was I rude? I must be rude if she feels that way. And might even start to be cruel or rude or assume that bullying role or rude stance to some degree. In other words, to start to take on the very qualities and opinions that the other person is projecting. Holy smokes. So fascinating. So when our friend here said, I let her gaslight me into thinking I'm a terrible person and that nobody likes me, that could be an example of what you're describing.

54:11Gabriel Mizrahi:I think so. She called it gaslighting. There is a bit of that, but that's more of a, maybe an intellectual process. Unconsciously, it might be a dance between the two of them. The dance might be Mandy can't tolerate a particular feeling or quality in herself, shame, aggression, hostility. She projects it into her friend. You're the hostile one. And through a very subtle, almost imperceptible process, but which is probably made up of, you know, like tone and behavior and these two people's personal histories, Mandy essentially induces our friend to feel or behave in a way that fits her projections.

54:45I feel like this explains exactly the feeling I've had when I've brushed up against people like this. It's like they blame you for being somebody you know you aren't and you know you're not that person, but you somehow end up feeling like that person and you can't figure out why.

54:59Gabriel Mizrahi:Yes, exactly. And it takes a lot of awareness and strong boundaries to not fall into that dynamic and it's hard. It's really hard for everyone. It's even hard for therapists. I mean, there's like a whole body of literature in the community about how therapists deal with their clients projections because it's very tricky. Fascinating how these two puzzle pieces fit together. All that to say anyway, yes, validate Mandy as appropriate, draw boundaries with her. Absolutely. Most experts agree that that is really the only way to relate to people like this. But I think what's really going to help here is building stronger internal boundaries, which means learning more about how this projection works, noticing how it feels as it happens to you, and then learning to be a less accommodating home for it.

55:42As for Jim, no, I don't think it's really necessary for him to cut ties with his family right away. In fact, as difficult as Mandy is, I really hope it doesn't come to that. Cutting family members off completely, that should really be a last resort, really. So much of the progress you guys are looking for is in A, understanding these dynamics better, and B, learning to protect yourselves, which I think you're already seeing promising signs that that approach is working, which is excellent news.

56:07Gabriel Mizrahi:I would also add, given Mandy's personality and probable wounds and how close she is with her brother, I think cutting her off would be extremely painful for her, and it would probably set them back quite a way. I know it's hard. I know it doesn't feel like she deserves it, but what Mandy really needs is consistency of connection along with these boundaries. She needs to feel that you guys are not going to leave her, even as you say, I'm sorry, but I won't keep engaging with you if you're going to rage at me. Interesting. Yeah, my instinct would be to pull away hard from somebody like this. But I could see how that might work against their progress.

56:39But then I ask myself, how likely is progress anyway? And is it really their job to help Mandy get better?

56:45Gabriel Mizrahi:It's a fair question. I guess I would say, like we often say, it's not their job exactly, but the way they relate to her can make it easier or harder for her to realize that she needs to check herself and get better. I hear that. I also feel like she might benefit from realizing she's driving them away. True. But I don't know, that might be Dark Jordan talking. Also, I'm just now remembering that you cut off some family members, too. Obviously, we don't know the details there. Maybe that was necessary. Didn't she also say that she met Jim through her former best friend? Yeah, that's right. Former best friend.

57:16Gabriel Mizrahi:Interesting. Yeah. I mean, who knows what happened there? Could have been anything. Maybe that friend moved away or maybe they whatever. We don't know the details, but I think we're hearing a pattern in this letter of not having contact with people she used to have contact with. So it's fair to ask, you know, what is that about? Well, that's where I was going with this. I guess I wonder if maybe you're in the process of learning about a whole spectrum of approaches to difficult people between being enmeshed and cutting someone off completely. And if maybe cutting people off has felt like the only option in the past when these boundary approaches can do wonders, just something to think about.

57:47Gabriel Mizrahi:Jim is also in the middle of an important shift of his own out of this enmeshment and into what sounds like his version of individuation, which is really great news, so important. He might be in a phase where he feels he needs distance from his family, like in terms of pure contact and also maybe ideologically, and fair enough. But maybe his own distaste and frustration, maybe that's also making him feel he needs to take a very militant stance, which I'm not entirely sure that he really needs, but my hope for him is that he finds this boundary to closeness as well in his own way, because I think that'll change things for him and his sister.

58:20Which reminds me, if you guys didn't catch it, I'd definitely go back and listen to our episode with Dr. Ken Adams. He's an expert in enmeshment, especially enmeshment between mothers and sons. But I think his insights apply to all kinds of enmeshment and families.

58:33Gabriel Mizrahi:His books are really great. Episode 942 is one of my favorites. Man, we went hard in the paint on this one. Thanks for letting us go deep here. I'm very sorry you're dealing with Mandy. I'm sorry that Mandy's dealing with you this way. But I also think she's teaching you some really important stuff about yourself and how to be with people like this, which is ultimately going to be super valuable. Sending you and Jim a big hug and wishing you all the best. By the way, you can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a whole lot easier.

59:03If you're finding dead squirrels in your mailbox, you've been kicked out of your own company for an ambiguous mistake you paid the price for decades ago, or you're struggling to forgive your friends for neglecting you after you lost your spouse while giving birth way too early, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. And now, enmesh yourself in the amazing deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Marathon.

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1:01:15Gabriel Mizrahi:Okay, next up. Hey guys, I live in a suburban neighborhood community of about 100 houses and have a very problematic neighbor. Let's call him Chad. Chad has a lot of resources and free time. He's now following his neighbor to and from work just for existing. He's tormented countless neighbors and has made vague threats of violence, insinuating that there are firearms or concealed weapon permit reinstatements coming soon. Reinstatements? I don't know if he meant reinstatements or reinforcements, maybe? No, or renewals. But reinstatement, I don't know how this works in their state, but that almost implies that maybe he lost the permit at some point.

1:01:54That's what it sounds like. Yeah. Makes me wonder if he did something to lose it. I mean, maybe it lapsed, right? But I don't know. That could be useful somehow. Anyway, carry on.

1:02:02Gabriel Mizrahi:This neighborhood is less than 10 years old, and he's forced multiple neighbors to sell and relocate. He has cameras all over the place, so I'm sure he's recorded his own shenanigans, but none of us can truly catch him in the act. Local PD are well aware of this man because of the many calls he's made. They keep saying they can't do anything about just being a jackass, but we all fear something will eventually escalate, and one of us will become a sacrificial lamb. I've tried sending Latter-day Saints to his house in hopes he finds Jesus, as well as anonymously signing up for real estate services, saying he's actively looking to find a place with property and a space for his exotic imported cars.

1:02:41Gabriel Mizrahi:Wow, even the Mormons couldn't help. Dang. No, this guy's beyond saving, I think. Have you tried Jehovah's Witnesses? I hear they're quite persistent. I don't know if that's going to do it, Jordan. Something tells me this guy loves celebrating his birthday, so the letter goes on. I've reached out to plenty of neighbors who all have had experiences with Chad. The neighbor he followed filed a protection order, but no one else is willing to stick their neck out for fear of retaliation. This man has enough resources to just litigate stuff into infinity. I'm trying to figure out the most effective way to get the charges to stick and send him a message without exposing us all to retaliation.

1:03:16Gabriel Mizrahi:We all just want to be left alone so we can live our lives and play with our kids outside without the yammering and spewing as he perches on his balcony. What are your thoughts? What can we legally do to get this guy to leave us all alone and allow us to go outside in peace? Signed, wondering what you would do here if you could, when, in all likelihood, this guy is going to keep terrorizing the neighborhood. Ugh, what a piece of work. I hate stories like this, super upsetting. Yeah, I hate the fact that the police often can't or maybe won't do much until something truly terrible happens, and it's like, thanks a lot, guys.

1:03:50Gabriel Mizrahi:Thanks for waiting. Yeah, exactly, at which point it's too late. I mean, you hear this all the time. And basically the police, there'll be stalkers or something. And it's like the people are like, the police refuse to do anything. And basically they'll only come when there's a body in the yard, you know, like they'll really only help with stuff like this when it's just too late. It's like, do we really have to wait for this psycho who might've done something to lose his concealed carry permit, no less, to shoot one of us for you to actually do anything? If this were my neighbor and I was playing with my kids in the street, I would be very concerned.

1:04:19We wanted to run all of this by an expert. So we reached out to attorney and friend of the show, Corbin Payne.

1:04:28New soundbite there, felt appropriate. And the first words out of Corbin's mouth were, Yikes. Direct quote. Another direct quote, The cops are being lazy or they're being wimps, they absolutely can charge Chad over threats slash assault. Of course, states title these crimes differently, but whatever version of putting a person in reasonable fear of harm, if it's specific and pointed or personal enough, pretty sure that's a crime. Now, that doesn't mean a charge for Chad will stick. He can still defend himself, of course. But to quote Corbyn again, getting arrested has a way of acting as a lovely blue light intervention.

1:04:59Gabriel Mizrahi:I had never heard of that phrase, by the way. Yeah, me neither. Apparently, it's a term in the addiction world. The idea being some people get their wake up when they get arrested. It's like an intervention, but done by the cops, hence the blue lights. So Corbin had a few ideas for you. One idea, and I like this one, hire a private detective. A PI can follow this guy, document his malefactions, then testify to them either at a criminal hearing or at a civil restraining order hearing. Corbin said a good one should be able to do most of this incognito, so it's not like super obvious and going to blow back on you.

1:05:30Now, Chad might be a little on the paranoid side, so there's a good chance that he spots the PI eventually, and that'll likely up his paranoia. Corbyn's other recommendation, no surprise here, document, document, document. Whatever happens, whatever Chad's resources, Corbyn said y 'all will absolutely need to create a record of what he's been up to. And the cops could definitely bring charges based on a credible report from a credible victim. But even then, Corbyn said that this is the sort of case where a defense attorney, they're going to try to raise all kinds of cane, which is another great Corbynism, by the way, basically poke holes in the state's handling of things and lacking physical evidence.

1:06:06that's one good way to poke holes. So you gotta get as much documentary evidence as possible. If that means investing in GoPro cameras or something like that to put on your chest every time you go out, he would do that. If it means pulling your cell phones out and recording his ass every time he approaches or steps out in public, do that. You know, whoever lives near him can put a camera facing his house. That's not illegal, actually. Asterisk, consult your attorney, but yeah.

1:06:30Gabriel Mizrahi:Maybe you could use those meta Ray-Ban glasses Jordan mentioned a few weeks ago, because if you had those on and he popped off and you just tap the side of the glass and you start recording, you probably won't even realize that you're documenting all this. That is a great idea. Anyway, whatever it takes to get hard evidence of this psycho popping off. Corbin said that if you can bring a tailor-made case to a police officer, prosecutor, or civil attorney before anything gets off the ground, the odds of getting somebody to take you seriously goes up tremendously. Another way to document all of this is to just keep a running tally of Chad's crazy through what attorneys like to call a contemporaneous record of events.

1:07:04In other words, you can make a report

1:07:06Gabriel Mizrahi:of what happened shortly after it happened and date it to show it happened near the events in question. So Corbin had a cool solution for this. He said, set up an email account that the neighbors can send updates to. Chad popping off at gmail.com or whatever it is. That way, everything is in one place. It's automatically time and date stamped. And it's a low risk, low friction method for people to start subtly documenting and pushing back on Chad's crazy. I love this. Every time Chad pops off, take a picture, type up some notes, email it to this email address, and bam. Documentation, time, date, all confirmed by the server in one easy place we can hand to a prosecutor.

1:07:42Big fan of this idea.

1:07:43Gabriel Mizrahi:And if Chad is getting consistent pushback in the form of you guys recording him and documenting all this, he might just back down because he's no longer able to bully people with impunity. He might be crazy, but he also might not want to end up in jail. Could put him on notice that he doesn't have carte blanche to just act like this whenever he wants, yeah. And if you can't get any officials to take you guys seriously, Corbin said there's always the option of going to local media. If multiple people have complaints against Chad and or there's video of him menacing you guys, he said a local reporter may want to run with it as a human interest story.

1:08:13I think we've all seen those local news segments. Sometimes they go viral about a bunch of neighbors complaining about the Karen or the psycho down the street. People love that stuff. So let's see how Chad feels with TV cameras shoved in his face. Or maybe even better, let's see how the local cops feel while being asked why they're doing nothing about the guy criminally harassing everybody on his block. How about that, Chad? Catch me outside. How about that? Corbin's last idea for you, it's worth talking to a local civil attorney. He would advise you to look for somebody with litigation experience, probably somebody who does divorces and family law.

1:08:47Those are the lawyers who do the most restraining order litigation cases. A lawyer can advise you all on how to proceed. They can also advise you all on what protections exist for people who file one of these cases.

1:08:58Gabriel Mizrahi:Corbin also said that if you guys come in with a request for a restraining order, you can generally get one put in place while the case is pending. And if Chad violates it, then there are serious penalties involved, including convincing the judge that he is, in fact, a risk who needs a restraining order against him. So Corbin pointed out that just knowing about some of these protections might make your neighbors feel safer about going on record. I bet that would go a long way because right now they feel naked and ignored and Chad has all the power, but that could change real quick. You know the drill.

1:09:28Call your state or county bar association. Get referrals for those attorneys. They're out there. I do have some final dark Jordan ideas, which I think you would expect for me to have on this particular kind of thing. One idea is every one of you files a police report and or a restraining order against him. One for each of you, as long as he keeps doing stuff. Until there are so many, the police actually have to intervene. Or when he finally does commit a crime, there's just a huge file on him and he gets in real trouble. You could even request a group meeting with your local police to show them, look, here's the incident log and documentation.

1:10:01Here are all the police reports we filed. Here are the 11 restraining orders we had to take out. This isn't neighbors squabbling. This is one crazy dangerous guy versus the entire neighborhood. You guys got to do something. Another idea is you could FOIA, so Freedom of Information Act, You could FOIA request Chad's own police reports. My guess is he's abusing police resources at this point, lying and saying, oh, trespassing, noise violation. And it's like, no, this is all bullshit. It's just fabricated nonsense. And so you could FOIA that and you would know exactly what he's saying about everybody.

1:10:33Gabriel Mizrahi:So if you call the cops a million times on your neighbors for stuff that isn't really a problem, that's a crime. If it's meant to harass, like if you're just saying they're being loud again, that's probably not a crime. But if you're fabricating information or there's really nothing going on. Exactly. The kids are trespassing on my lawn. Yeah, they've been on vacation for a week. You're just calling so that there's a police report in the system. Or that they're doing this and this. No, everyone's asleep. You just wanted the cops to knock on their door so that they had to wake up in the middle of the night and deal with it.

1:11:02You're just using the police to harass your neighbors at this point. That is a crime. That can lead to fines, mandatory restitution for wasted emergency resources. It can even lead to jail time if you keep doing it. Also, I don't know if you guys have an HOA where you live. Neighborhood's less than 10 years old. Seems like a new build. Possibly has an HOA. But look, if you've got that, his cameras and other BS, that might violate the CCNRs. He could be fined. He could be penalized. If he doesn't pay, you can put a lien on his house. I realize that could antagonize him more, but that's an option.

1:11:30HOAs don't mess around. If he doesn't pay those fines and remove the cameras or whatever's violating the CCNRs, you can foreclose that guy's house. Then he's the one who's moving. I would also look into your city codes and see if any of his cameras, balconies, lights, property modifications, even where he parks his cars or how much noise he makes, if any of that violates city codes. Then you start filing regular city code complaints. Eventually somebody from the city should respond and they're gonna enforce the rules ruthlessly because they don't care about neighborhood politics. Last idea, when you talk to an attorney, ask them if they can send Chad one formal harassment warning letter from multiple households.

1:12:08Then Chad's gonna know like, oh snap, these people are organized. They have documentation. They're going to legally escalate. They've already found somebody who will help them with that. Maybe I need to pipe down. Now, I'm very sorry that you're dealing with this piece of work. People like this really are a cancer, but you got to fight cancer to beat it. So I hope you find some easy and safe ways to do that soon. Good luck. All right. Now for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to lit filler. My recommendation of the week, I mentioned this earlier, the Garmin inReach Mini. I had the Mini three on my trip.

1:12:39A lot of people rely on their cell phones for hiking, but we don't have service everywhere, especially if you go to national parks or something like that. Or if you're outside North America, the SOS on your phone, if you have an iPhone and you're like, oh, I have the satellite thing on my phone. That won't work if you are not in the right place. Also, the antenna on that thing is not the same. So if you get into a scrape or you get lost or whatever, you're in a real pickle. You're in real trouble. Garmin uses a global network of satellites instead. So you can stay connected even if you're off grid, you're in a remote area in a random country.

1:13:11It's pretty clutch if you're an adventure traveler, a hiker, mountain biker, mountaineer, thrill seeker, camper, boat or anything that'll take you to some weird places. Also, Garmin has$40 a year search and rescue insurance. They have higher plans if you're planning to get rescued off of mountains above, 5 ,000 feet and things like that. But if you need to get extracted from someplace, they will cover the cost of that up to 100 grand. So if it costs 80 grand to get medevaced out of, I don't know, some desert somewhere, they'll cover that up to 100 grand, I think. I brought one of these to Saudi Arabia.

1:13:45I was able to stay in touch. Didn't end up needing it for more than a few days, but I'll definitely be bringing this thing with me again if I ever go off grid again in the future. They're not super cheap. It's like 300 to 500 bucks, depending on the model you get. but you can't really put a price on, you know, being found alive and staying in touch with your family in a real emergency. We'll link to the model I used in the show notes. I'm a big fan. It's a great company as well. Good customer service, good products. And I definitely recommend this if you ever go off-grid. It's just cheap insurance in all respects.

1:14:14All right, now we're gonna yammer and spew some deals and discounts on the fine products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by Delete Me. Delete.me makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Most of us have no idea how much of our information is just floating around out there. Your name, your phone number, your home address, even details about relatives can be collected by data brokers and sold online like nothing. Your data is a product, and it's a pretty unsettling thing to realize.

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1:15:09Gabriel Mizrahi:Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete.me. Now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20 % off your Delete.me plan when you go to joindeleteme.com slash Jordan and use promo code Jordan at checkout. The only way to get 20 % off is to go to joindeleteme.com slash Jordan and enter code Jordan at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com slash Jordan, code Jordan. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and find our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do. That is take a moment and support the amazing sponsors.

1:15:39They're all linked, searchable and clickable on the website at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. If that doesn't work, email us jordan at jordanharbinger.com. We'd love to dig up codes for you. it is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, for the rest of Feedback Friday.

1:15:56Gabriel Mizrahi:Okay, next up. Dear Senor Bonita and Handsome Boy No. 1, that's Senor Bonito, just FYI. Please do not misgender my Bonito, if you would. Yeah, come on. Gabe fought long and hard to come to terms with his Bonito. Exactly. Bonita. You can come all this way. You can put the X on there. Let me start by saying that I truly love and appreciate what you both do. I value your practical advice, the applicability of your episodes, and the overall work you put out. I take it back. You can call him Benita if you want. I didn't know you were a super fan. I've listened to every episode, including ones where I may not fully agree or even like what a guest is saying.

1:16:32Gabriel Mizrahi:I see those moments as opportunities to open my mind and possibly shift my perspective. That is awesome. I love that. I wish more people thought that way. I'm 26 years old and have been with my boyfriend, now fiancé, for nine years. We just got engaged this past December and are planning our wedding for November, 2026. And yes, you are both invited. That was obviously my first question. Also nine years, man. Holy smokes. You are patient. That means they met when they were 17. Yeah, that makes sense. You didn't rush into things. Good for you. My question actually about the wedding is, can I wear my Cabonito hat?

1:17:06Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm sure you can. You're going to look so Bonita in that hat at the wedding for your suit. Thank you. I appreciate it. I'll go with the black though, not the yellow, you know, class it up a bit. That's right. Let us know what the dress code is and if we need to book our own room or if we can just crash and you and your fiance's room that only seems fair I mean since she loves the show so much That's right at least she could do let us sleep on the pull-out couch in your matrimonial suite Give him a front row seat to the burton ernie show. They'll love that. She goes on He is my first in many ways my first serious relationship.

1:17:34Gabriel Mizrahi:I've never really seriously dated anyone to be clear I'm reading the letter again. I'm not talking about jordan Yes, thank you for clarifying. I was like wait what is what is there? We need to talk about this off mic, Gabe. Yeah. He is my first in many ways. My first serious relationship. I've never really seriously dated anyone else. My first love and the first and only person I've slept with. Actually, that part is kind of true. Hey, what happens in St. Louis stays in St. Louis. I'm also his first in every way. First girlfriend, first kiss, and first and only person he's been with. He's my everything.

1:18:09Gabriel Mizrahi:He supported me through everything you can think of over those nine years. My mom being sick, college, and being lost after it. A sexual abuse case in which I am a victim and which is still ongoing. Car accidents, pets passing, and family problems. Oh man, you've been through a lot. I'm very sorry to hear about all this. Your mom and this sexual abuse case especially sounds very intense, very special that he's been there for you. Y 'all sound like a solid couple. Even now, he's supportive as I work a sales job with 100 % commission instead of using my degree in computer science and engineering.

1:18:42Gabriel Mizrahi:He's helped me stumble through life and deal with the overall hiccups. But all of this brings a few questions and fears to my mind. One is having dated other people. I've never had the desire to, but I often hear that experimenting is important. At the same time, I've seen relationships like ours work, so I'm curious about your thoughts. My second question is about preparing for a successful marriage. We plan to do couples counseling to make sure we're on the same page and a prenuptial agreement, as recommended by your guest, James Sexton. Smart. Very few people have the, you know, what's the word?

1:19:17Pragmatism, courage, the level-headedness, I guess, to actually do a prenup, even when they know it's logically the right thing to do. But that episode with James Sexton...

1:19:25Gabriel Mizrahi:Episode 1035, by the way. Yeah, very eye-opening, I would say. Super eye-opening. The stats on divorce are so clear, and yet, well, you know, no one wants to acknowledge they might feel differently about their spouse one day. But if you're just being rational, practical, it's almost certainly the right thing to do. Emotionally, that's another story. I know it's tricky. I have a lot of fears about what could go wrong. What if he dies? What if he gets curious about other women? What if one day he decides he wants kids? Oh, wow, that took a turn. I've never wanted kids for many reasons. I've discussed this with my fiance multiple times over the years, and he's always said he's okay with it.

1:20:01Gabriel Mizrahi:It's also something I plan to revisit in couples counseling. Great. You absolutely have to pin this big stuff down early. There can't be any ambiguity about stuff like this where things get very messy. Yeah, I'm so glad you guys are doing couples counseling before you get married. Same. That's super smart. I feel like most people should do that. Same. I'm sure everyone would benefit from that train before the marathon. That said, I don't see my stance on kids changing. If I were to end up with a child or two, so be it. But it's not part of my plan. That's confusing. Yeah. She's never wanted kids, but if she ended up with them, she's cool with it?

1:20:35Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah. So does she not want them or not? I'm confused. Usually people who don't want kids are pretty militant about it, right? Not going to happen. She's talking about it like it's not entirely up to her or something. Like, oh, crap. Here's two kids. I mean, if she doesn't want kids, I know a few good ways to not have them. Yeah. I also know one good way to have them. So maybe just avoid that if you don't want kids. This is interesting. Yeah, but what's interesting about it, that there's a part of her that might in fact want children? You know, I'm honestly not sure. I suppose that's a possibility, or at least she isn't totally against them.

1:21:06Gabriel Mizrahi:Or is it that there's a part of her that's willing to just leave this huge thing up to chance? And what does that say? But then she's saying, I don't see my stance changing, so I'm just confused. Definitely something to pin down in therapy. There's something about this. It feels swimmy and conflicted somehow. My entire family knows this and is supportive of my decision, my mom especially. I feel like I've made my position very clear over the years, but his parents still talk about him having kids and their plans for when he does. It can be annoying, but at the end of the day, it's not causing direct harm.

1:21:38Gabriel Mizrahi:I've talked to my fiancé about it. He's noticed it too, but doesn't think much of it. All interesting data. Takes some real doing to not think much of your family expecting something huge that you definitely don't plan on giving them, though. I agree. It's not that he necessarily needs to discuss all their plans with his family, but if they're expecting grandchildren and he doesn't plan on having any, I mean, that conversation is probably coming one way or another. Or he's hoping they're just going to figure it out when 10 years go by and they haven't bought a bigger car in the one bedroom. I don't know.

1:22:07We obviously don't know her fiance. The picture I'm getting is that he's being a little wishy washy, too. I know it's hard with family. He probably doesn't want to disappoint them.

1:22:15Gabriel Mizrahi:Or it's just super awkward to talk about. Yeah, but I wonder if they're both tap dancing around something in different ways. Do you think it's important to date or be with other people before getting married? Do you think we need to sit down and clearly discuss our decision around having kids with my fiance's family, or should we just let it be and allow them to say what they want? Beyond that, what do you recommend we do before and during our marriage to make it successful? Signed, trying to plot the things we ought to give good thought before we tie the knot. Wow, all super interesting. So first of all, I love that you're asking these big questions now, doing this work, like in couples therapy, before you guys tie the knot.

1:22:53You strike me as a very thoughtful person, a very diligent person. You've got your head on straight. You want to be responsible. You want to be fair to yourself and to your fiance.

1:23:02Gabriel Mizrahi:Really fits with what she said about treating different opinions as opportunities to open her mind, possibly shift her perspective. Totally. Yeah, I think it takes a certain curiosity, a certain humility. Empathy, I think as well. And empathy for sure, all of which are such great qualities in a marriage and all of which I imagine will make couples therapy very productive. So I really appreciate all that and well done on cultivating this mindset. So about dating other people before you get married, do I think that's generally helpful and healthy to some degree? I do. Not because I think that, you know, everyone has to go through a hoe phase before they settle down, but just because having a few relationships, I think that kicks up a lot of useful data about a person, about how you operating relationships, about your particular pressure points, about your needs, your values, other people's, where they align, where they diverge, and how to navigate all that.

1:23:53And that can be very helpful. I think it can also avoid some regret and what if thinking down the line, like what else am I missing? Should I have enjoyed being single? Is this for sure the right person for me? Stuff like that. However, do I think dating a bunch of other people and sleeping around is essential to having a successful marriage? No, I don't. And I also think that being in one serious, deep, long-term relationship during a formative time, that also kicks up some really useful data about yourself. So either way, you get a valuable experience. If you found your person early and you guys are on the same page and you love each other and you share the same goals and values and all that, then hey, you just found your person early in life.

1:24:30You could have a terrific marriage. I think the things that make a successful marriage, they probably have less to do with how many other people you dated and way more to do with the quality of your relationship, the process you guys tap into when you go through difficult stuff, how you guys handle certain questions or feelings, including this whole topic of being each other's firsts.

1:24:48Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, I totally agree. But that also depends on the personalities and the values, the backgrounds of the people involved, right? Yeah, that's true. That's a huge variable. I mean, for some people having a variety of experiences or developing an identity without a romantic partner, that's super important to them. For other people finding the right person early and being in a partnership and investing mostly in that, That's the priority. So that changes the opportunity cost for the person. For sure. And so it's hard to know what our friend here needs. Is she asking this question because intellectually she knows it's a fruitful question to ask, a responsible thing to get out in front of early?

1:25:23Or is she asking this question because there's a part of her that's longing for these other experiences and she knows it might eat away at her down the line?

1:25:29Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, that's a really good question for her to ask. Although she said, I never really had the desire to date other people, so that might be the answer right there. And also, nothing she said in her letter suggests that she might pump the brakes on getting married or end this relationship so she can go be single for a while. No. So that's not going to happen. No. So I guess I wonder where that leaves her. I mean, if we had come back and said, yeah, you definitely need to date other people before you get married, what would she have done with that? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I mean, I guess she could have thought about it and disagreed, or she might have heard that and gone, well, shit, now what do I do?

1:25:57I don't know if I can get married.

1:25:58Gabriel Mizrahi:Let's assume that she is not going to end this amazing relationship to go be single for a while, which I cannot say I advise based on her letter. And let's say that they go through couples counseling and they come out even stronger and there are no huge problems in their relationship. TBD on the kids thing. We'll talk about that in a second. Then maybe part of their journey together will be working through some of these feelings when they come up, whatever they might be. Regret, conflict, guilt, confusion, just like a vague wondering. I think they could have an amazing marriage and still contend with those feelings from time to time.

1:26:30Gabriel Mizrahi:And so I guess the question for me is, how do they process them? What conclusions do they draw from them? Can they explore them safely and satisfy them in other ways together? Or do they just kind of need to make peace with them together? I don't know the answer, really. I think most people, no matter their history, deal with these feelings and conflicts to some degree, even when they're in a happy relationship. I hesitate to say this because I know I just said it's not essential to having a great marriage, but avoiding regret, conflict, guilt, confusion, the kind that can eat away at you or chip away at a relationship, that's just a huge reason I think dating around actually is important.

1:27:05Maybe I'm contradicting myself a little bit, but I just want to keep it real.

1:27:08Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, I hear that and I actually agree. But I guess what I'm saying is how much those feelings eat away at somebody, whether they really chip away at a great relationship, I do wonder if that's largely up to them. And by that, I mean it's up to them to understand themselves before they get married, and it's up to them to develop a language and a process to talk about this stuff when it comes up, which by the way, might include just being able to acknowledge these feelings with each other, as strange as that might sound. Because I imagine that one way these feelings can corrode a relationship is when one or both parties feel that they're taboo somehow, like they're too hurtful or scary to call out with the other person.

1:27:43Gabriel Mizrahi:Whereas being able to say, hey, I love you so much, I want to be married to you, I'm so glad I found you when I was 17, and I don't know, sometimes I wonder what my hoe phase would have been like, you know, sometimes I wonder if I developed enough as a single person before I met you, although I would hope you guys would talk about this before you get married, of course, but like, if that's a thought that's coming up, that's a legitimate thought, and it might be fruitful to explore with your partner, whatever it is. That's real, but that's hard. It is hard. I totally get that. And also, not everyone wants to have those conversations.

1:28:11Gabriel Mizrahi:So that's fine if you don't. But I guess what I'm saying is just being able to say something like that, not in service of breaking up or I don't know, opening the marriage or anything like that, just in service of being fully honest, that might close the gap that these thoughts and feelings can create between two people. That's not all they have to do to survive them. But I do wonder if that's a big part of it. I hear that. And if they respond well to those chats, like if he can go meet those feelings in a helpful way, that might make her go, man, this really is my person. I'm so lucky I found him early.

1:28:41Gabriel Mizrahi:That's actually what I'm saying is that it might go a long way in resolving that same regret or guilt or shame that she's worried about encountering because she was never single before him. Exactly. So interesting how that works. Just one of the many things they can explore in couples therapy. So let's talk about how to handle the kids thing with your fiance's family. Gabe, I'm way less sure about this one. Same, not as clear cut. Part of me is going, eh, it's not really their business when or whether you guys are going to have kids. You don't have to keep them apprised of your procreation plans.

1:29:08And another part of me is like, well, they keep bringing it up, so they obviously think it's going to happen. And if that's not in the plans, it would probably be nice to let them know so they can let go of that idea. Not to mention it's going to be way less stressful for you guys because it's not going to be like, when are we having kids? It's like, okay, we talked about this and we can all sort of accept reality now.

1:29:27Gabriel Mizrahi:What concerns me most about this isn't so much that the parents might have a different wish for them kids-wise, but what it might say about her fiancé's true feelings about children and what it might say about his way of handling tough conversations with his family in general. Bingo. Like, does this mean he secretly wants them, but he's afraid to say that because he knows she doesn't. Or does this mean that he doesn't want them either, but he doesn't have the stones to tell his parents, sorry, guys, that's not what we want. Just wanted to let you know. Exactly. But either way, couples therapy.

1:29:56Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, I'm really glad they're going, even if they're totally aligned on the kids thing in the end, which is still a bit of an if for me. But even if they are, these skills are still going to be so important in the marriage. Agreed. Even more, I hasten to add than having banged a bunch of people before you met just to put you at some ease there. But look, if you guys talk this out and decide, yeah, we definitely don't want kids, then I think you probably need to tell your in-laws at some point. Because like I said, that conversation has come in one way or another, and it is awkward. And it's kind of sad.

1:30:23They're hoping for grandchildren. They might not get them. I feel

1:30:26Gabriel Mizrahi:kind of like they deserve to know at some point. Well, by not telling them, they're also making it worse, right? Because one day this is going to come to a head. His parents are going to ask point blank, or they're just going to figure it out. And then they might go, oh, cool. So you just lied to us about this for 12 years. Appreciate that. Yeah, exactly. Rip off the bandaid, I say. And maybe that'll be an instructive conversation for you guys, or at least for him, how you communicate your decisions and values to other people, how you navigate conflict. But I wouldn't do it till you guys are truly clear on the kids thing.

1:30:55I'm still confused by that thing you said, how if you ended up with kids, so be it. Maybe I'm missing something. But if that speaks to any confusion or indecision here, I'd run straight toward that in couples therapy and try and figure it out. And look, if you're like, well, we're 90 percent sure we don't want them, but who knows? Maybe in five years we'll feel differently. We're leaving room for that. That's fair, too. I'm not saying you need to be militantly or black and white sort of pro or anti having kids, but that's a position.

1:31:20Gabriel Mizrahi:And is that a position you would share with these in-laws? They could. They could say, look, guys, we know you're excited for us to have kids, but we're 90 percent sure we don't want them. We don't want to get your hopes up, but we're leaving some room that will change our minds. But probably we won't. And we wanted to let you know so you could know where we stand and adjust your expectations. I think that's fair. So you're telling me there's a chance. Yeah! I think it also depends on what his parents are like. If they're the type of people who hear that there's a 10 % chance that they'll change their minds and then for the next decade they send them articles about how important it is to have kids and they point out all the cute babies at the restaurant and guilt their son into doing it for them, then I would say maybe don't share all the nuances with them.

1:32:02Gabriel Mizrahi:Maybe you just say, I'm really sorry guys not in our plans but if they're generally cool and respectful and well boundary if you think that they're going to respond okay to this I don't know if they will but if they're those kind of people then there's less risk in letting them in on every nook and cranny of your position on kids yeah good point although knowing what I know about older parents I think most people who hear there's a chance their kids will change their minds about this will probably hold out hope that they'll do it and might use that 10 % to kind of crowbar their way in and push them to do it, even if they're not overtly manipulative.

1:32:33So just keep that in mind. As for what you guys should do before and during your marriage to make it successful, big question. I'm getting a little sweaty over here. Is this really all on us, Gabe? It's a bit much.

1:32:43Gabriel Mizrahi:She did invite us to the wedding. Yes. And as you've heard on the show, we are the gift. Okay. So I guess it is on us. So I just really, I have big picture thoughts and we've already touched on the most important ones. First and foremost, get on the same page about the kids thing and also get clear on how you would handle it if one of you changes your mind. If that's maybe in the cards, always a risk. Second, I would focus in therapy on developing good conflict resolution muscles, how to listen, how to empathize, how to make room for the other person's feelings and positions while staying connected to yours.

1:33:15Any couple needs to have that process to succeed because there will always be challenges and conflicts. You guys have already been through some big ones and how you move through them. That's everything.

1:33:24Gabriel Mizrahi:I'm also just thinking about everything they've been through together. Her mom being sick, this sexual abuse case, which sounds very intense, family conflicts, physical accidents, some existential stuff. Again, very special that your fiance has supported you through all of that. And by the way, another point in the why it's awesome to find your person early in life column, by the way. But I would also make time in couples therapy to talk about how those experiences might have shaped you guys as a couple, how they might be showing up in the relationship now in any way. I know we talk about this idea all the time, and I I don't mean to beat a dead horse, unfortunate turn of phrase, drop this horse out again.

1:33:58But one of the themes of their relationship is grief. Grief around mom and her illness, perhaps some grief around the person she was before this tragic abuse, grief around pets, around family, how a couple moves through grief together, that's also huge. And that's another thing you guys might want to continue to focus on, making lots of room for mourning in all of its forums, big and small.

1:34:18Gabriel Mizrahi:You know, I'm really glad you brought this up because I do wonder if one source of grief our friend here is dealing with isn't just not having had a ho phase for the sake of having a ho phase, but grief around not having an experience of herself as an unattached person who could have any number of experiences for a while. And that's a question not just of romantic variety, but of identity. She's talking about another self and how that self might have shaped the self she is now in this timeline. So I think there's a good argument to be made that this self, this timeline that she's in, is pretty great, and that she's very lucky to have met her future husband so early.

1:34:54Gabriel Mizrahi:A lot of people would kill for that, but that's absolutely compatible with mourning these other versions of her life. What now can never be because she met her future husband at 17 years old. Interesting. I do think getting to move through these developmental stages in a way, that's our birthright, so I can understand why not having that period would bring up some big feelings for her, even if she found her person. And I actually think it's appropriate and actually quite healthy for her to make room for that as she gets married. There's mourning even in joy, you know, for all the other joys that are incompatible with this one.

1:35:25And so that regret, guilt, conflict, confusion, those feelings we were talking about earlier, those might be symptoms of precisely this grief that you're talking about. And me advocating for the ho phase, so to speak, now that you've framed this as grief, I guess being single AF for a while, maybe that's largely a way for people to sidestep this future grief.

1:35:43Gabriel Mizrahi:Yeah, that's a really good point. I do think that's a big part of it and why couples therapy is probably going to be a great space for them. But also you can't sidestep that grief completely. It just exists alongside all of the happiness that they're going to get to share. But listen, congrats on finding your person so early. Congrats on becoming the kind of person who's doing the work to be with your person in the best way. It's really cool to read about. Very inspiring. I do have high hopes for you guys. And yeah, you can consider this my RSVP yes to your wedding. Gabe, I don't know. He looks TBD to me right now.

1:36:11Probably dealing with some grief about what other event he'll have to give up. in order to attend yours. It was a sound bath in Playa del Carmen or something the same day. An outdoor screening of a snuff film from the Weimar Republic. You know what?

1:36:22Gabriel Mizrahi:That is more of my speed these days. I know. You're absolutely correct. But what are you talking about? Yeah. By the way, we're totally kidding about crashing your wedding, but thank you for the invitation. Also about the snuff films. No, that part was real. Oh, okay. Cool, cool, cool. No, the Weimar Republic famously fire snuff films. Yeah. Look, I'm not allowed within 100 feet of an open bar anyway. It's probably out of range from my ankle monitor, so we can't go. What is that ankle monitor? Garmin? Yeah, weirdly, they don't make ankle monitors yet, but they'd probably crush that segment too.

1:36:49Gabriel Mizrahi:What if she let us give a toast at her wedding and we just read her Feedback Friday letter? I think that's a great idea. When Annie wrote us saying that Greg's parents didn't know they don't want kids, hey, y 'all have had that conversation, right? You took our advice, right? Anyway, since they're for sure going to be dinks and yuppies. This toast is going to crush. Grandma is going to love it. Yeah, look, Gabe and I can be your kids. Just put us in the will. Happy morning. Happy marriage. sending you and your dude a big hug and wishing you all the best. Go back and check out Mariana Van Zeller if you haven't done so yet.

1:37:18The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network, the circle of people I know, like, and trust. I'm teaching you how to build the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free. It is not gross. There's no shenanigans. There's no hitch. There's no catch-22. It's all free on the Thinkific platform at sixminutenetworking.com. The drills are designed to take a few minutes a day. I wish I knew this stuff a couple decades ago. Dig that well before you get thirsty, folks. Build relationships before you need them. Again, all free at 6minutenetworking.com.

1:37:44Show notes and transcripts on the website, advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. I'm at jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. Gabe's on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace, Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Tata Salauskas, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show.

1:38:14Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn. And we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview with Jamie Mustard, who signed a billion-year contract at age five while he still believed in Santa Claus, and spent his childhood inside Scientology's Sea Org, where kids were warehoused like livestock and denied even basic education.

1:38:45Gabriel Mizrahi:The story of the lost children of Scientology has never been told. And I really do believe if people knew what happened to us in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, what happened to us kids in that environment, they would stop it. There's a line for the suffering of children. By the age of five or six years old, I just basically started to go completely numb. These thousands of kids, they have autoimmune disease. They're all doing construction. Most of them, some of the more successful ones get lucky because they become contractors. But if people knew it would happen to us, which is the story that I wrote, that people would stop.

1:39:19Gabriel Mizrahi:It would be the end. On the day of my birth, I was handed over to a religious paramilitary organization, high control authoritarian group in a slum tenement, where I spent the first two and a half years of my life with little to no human touch. and that would be the beginning of pretty much a 20-year gauntlet where I wouldn't go to school and I would literally be animalized. We weren't looked at as anything of value until we could work or contribute labor. I never went to school. At the age of 20, I could barely write characters and I didn't know how to use a comma or construct a sentence or a paragraph.

1:39:54Gabriel Mizrahi:The reason I never spoke out is what I write about that happened to me, it's humiliating. I don't want to... I don't want anyone to know any of the things that we've talked about today. I mean, I think Scientology is the most sophisticated mind control system probably in the history of the human species. I'm starting for the first time in my life to be shame-free. To hear what happened during the largest FBI raid in U.S. history, which makes you wonder how this all stayed hidden in plain sight, and when he finally escaped nearly illiterate at age 19, check out episode 1270 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

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