840: Stalked and Defamed by Unstable Ex-Flame | Feedback Friday

23:57Then, I would tell her what this move means for you, the position it's putting you in, how it's going to impact you emotionally, logistically, financially. Again, try to make this a conversation. Just share, invite her to appreciate what impact this is having on the other parent here, if she can kind of wrap her mind around that. And after you do all that, then I would bring up the pattern of moving a lot. You got to be so careful here. Because if you say, look, this is your MO. Whenever you're miserable and you face some difficulty, you just move. You're just going to do this again in 18 months.

24:29This is so you. Not going to go well. Right. She's going to push back on that. Right. But if you can ask her some questions, invite her to connect the dots, she might be able to see this pattern in a new way. I don't have high hopes for that, really, but it's worth a shot. She doesn't sound like a terrible person. I mean, she's inviting you to go with him. She's not like, suck it. Totally. Right. So she's not malicious. Although even if she does wrap her head around all this, she still might forge ahead with this move. Oh, you're right. This is the last one. Maybe we're doing it anyway. Now, if that doesn't work, then I would be very direct and tell her what you were going through, how devastating this is, how emotionally and financially challenging it's going to be, and most importantly, how you think this is going to affect your daughter, her daughter, to have so little contact with her dad.

25:16I'm not saying you need to get manipulative here, but I do think you need to try to get her to understand in a very vivid way the impact of this move on people other than herself. I agree. but you know, between his ex's personality and the custody agreement they have, which sounds like it doesn't leave him much room for intervention that could get messy even if it did, it sounds like mom might be taking her to this other state no matter what. That's just the sense I'm getting. Yeah, look, I'm afraid of that too, and it really hurts. Yeah. Just as a parent, if this happened to me, I would be really hurt.

25:47I'd be really angry. Here's the thing though, and we don't have the details of this custody agreement, I assume, but custody agreements usually state how far someone can move from one parent. Again, I have a front row seat for my friend's divorce here. So he's like, she's not allowed to move more than 100 miles. And this is in one particular state or whatever. It sounds in a way like he waived the requirement initially that they stay close, but sort of casually agreeing to a distance greater than, say, 50 miles. That doesn't mean she can just move 1 ,500 miles because he was okay. You know, if you're in L.A.

26:19and your significant other says, hey, I'm going to move from Pasadena, suburban LA down to San Diego. You're like, oh, it's not ideal, but I can make the drive on the weekends. It's not a big deal. Nice town. She'll be in a better school. Fine. But she can't go. So I'm moving to Chicago. And since you let us move to San Diego, you can't argue with me moving to Chicago. That's just not realistic. So my advice is have this conversation with your ex and then two seconds after you hang up, call your lawyer and see what you can do, see what you're allowed to do and have a copy of that custody agreement.

26:51Make sure you get that dusted off and take a look at what it says. His moves might be very limited, unfortunately, but definitely worth a shot. I also think that it's possible that this situation is just really terrible all around. And also the answer is that he should move across the country and follow his daughter. There's a world where that is super unfair and perhaps unnecessary. And yet if his daughter is going to have her father in her life and he really wants to be involved, then he might have to follow her. And yeah, that means giving up his whole life, this community he's built, his career.

27:24I mean, it sucks. Or it means, you know, that he spends a year getting his ducks in a row and making this move. And in the meantime, they have to make it work somehow. So look, if you really can't do anything about this custody agreement, then you have a few options and they're all tough, but they're tough in different ways. Option one, you let them move across the country in the short term or perhaps for the next chapter of her childhood. And you visit when you can, whenever you can, and you stay in touch remotely. Option two is you really fight in the way that Jordan just said to keep her close by and you hire that lawyer and you do your best to intervene.

27:56But again, that could get ugly, it could get costly, and it's not clear if it's even going to work. Option three is you just let her go across the country with her mom and you do your best, and I mean your best, to stay close. You know, phone, FaceTime, flying out whenever you can, texting her all the time, and then you find ways to work through the distance and the sadness until circumstances change. Maybe you move out, or she gets old enough to move closer to you again, or maybe you guys find a whole new arrangement. It hurts my heart a lot to say it, but based on the facts in this letter, this might just be a painful situation, no matter what.

28:33Unless you choose to go and move there, but then there will still be sacrifices. So here you are, and now you have to make the most of a really difficult situation as best you can. I do hope he gets through to his ex, Gabe. I mean, really make her understand this, because this woman is putting our friend here and their daughter in a truly sad situation that could leave lasting marks on both of them. And she might be thinking, well, this is what's best for us. But at the same time, how do you want your daughter to resent you moving away and then dad couldn't go, eventually the daughter's going to grow up and go, wait, we moved all the time because mom can't get her shit together.

29:08Right. And that's why I don't have a relationship with my dad that I had before. That's not going to work well for her either. And I think people like judges, family court officials, social workers, they understand this too. So they do. If you got to play hardball, I didn't think of this before, but if the custody agreement allows her to do whatever she wants, maybe you challenge that custody agreement and you say, hey, look, this is no longer working for me. I want 50 % custody or some other arrangement. And now she has to go to court because of that. That sucks because it damages your relationship with your ex, which sounds like it's okay.

29:39So that wouldn't be my first move, but it would be my last move. If it means that I can't see my daughter anymore, very often, you got to do something about this. There is one silver lining here, which is that she wants him to move out with them. So it's a mixed picture. I can't quite tell how malicious or monstrous this woman really is because perhaps in her mind, she's doing this for great reasons. I think so. He listed a few of them. And so she's saying, please come with us. I want us to be close, which is very touching. But it is putting him in a position to like have to make a huge sacrifice just to stay close to the child he thought he would be close to anyway because he thought they would all be reasonable.

30:14Right. And then maybe do it again in two years. Right. Oh, we're actually going to go to Albuquerque now because I got a different job or I'm dating a different guy or whatever. Right. And his family's out there. Who knows? So fight like crazy only if you need to. love your daughter as much as you can, make her feel that love, and man, we're wishing you guys all the best. Keep us posted. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. If there's something you're going through, any big decision you're wrestling with, or you need a new perspective on life, love, work, how to figure out whether you attract the wrong partners, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com.

30:53We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. All right, what's next? Hey, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a 27-year-old female, and my grandmother is 79, widowed, and living alone. She deals with depression, anxiety, and chronic pain that require her to use both a walker and a wheelchair to get around. She's pretty much incapable of doing everyday tasks and relies heavily on my mom and me to take care of her. We do her grocery shopping, pick up her medications, take her to endless doctor's appointments, cook for her, and clean her house. The rest of our family lives three hours away, so they're unable to help the way we are.

31:32Wow, that is quite a thing to do for somebody. Yeah. It's sweet, but man, that must be hard. I'm happy to do this, and I really don't mind running errands, driving her to appointments, or helping her clean the house. I also enjoy drinking coffee and watching weekday soap operas with her while I work from home. The problem is, she's difficult, negative, and mean. She constantly gossips, makes racist or sexist remarks, comments on my and other family members' weight, talks poorly about my mom and her partner, complains about all of her doctors, and maintains an overall miserable disposition. She's always resisted physical therapy or anything else to help her chronic pain, and she relies on a cocktail of pills to get through the day.

32:15I try to take her out for meals and shopping and stuff like that, but she ends up complaining about the food and acting unimpressed by anything we try to do. Yeah, so she's basically just miserable. Poor woman. I do feel for her on some level. I mean, she sounds annoying as hell, but also there's a reason for that. For example, this past Sunday on Easter, she was irritable, complained about the food that my mom spent all day cooking, and told me that I looked so much prettier with longer hair. I even sent her your episode on chronic pain with Dr. Rachel Zofnes and bought her the pain management workbook.

32:46She never used the book, and all she had to say about the episode was that she didn't like Jordan's voice. Sorry, Jordan. I think your voice is lovely. Hey, how was that life-changing episode about chronic pain? Oh, did you—that guy's voice is so irritating. Yeah, but what'd you think of the content of the episode? Couldn't get past the chords. Yeah, couldn't get past the introduction. What an obnoxious SESOB that guy is. Jeez, you know what, Grandma? I'm off your team. I was team Grandma. I tried to help you, lady. Everybody loved Dr. Rachel's offness. I don't know what to tell you. Besides, my voice is one of my only redeeming qualities.

33:19Why you got to be like that, Grandma? Do you think she left a review after that? Yeah. Jordan tried to help me feel better. One star. I love those two, Jordan. Have you noticed we got a few of those last week? Like, this show is really good. I just don't know if I can do it. Four stars. There was the one that said, this is really well-researched, well-produced, and a lot of really interesting topics. Can't get into it. It's a negative review. Like, I don't know why I don't like it. Well, we don't either. Do we really need your opinion about that? Apparently we did. People's opinions. So special.

33:50Okay. The letter continues. My grandmother has talked about going into assisted living, but says that she's not quite ready yet. She has a small 10-year-old dog that she doesn't want to leave behind and also doesn't like the idea of having to sell her house in order to pay for assisted living. I feel tired, resentful, and hopeless about what to do for her or her situation. She makes me feel anxious and on edge even when I'm not around her. I feel so bad for her and what she's going through, but then I have so much resentment toward her as well and find it difficult to be around her. I know my mom feels the same way.

34:25I think about her almost all day every day, and it's starting to affect my mood and relationships. What can I do for her? Is there a way for me to look at the situation that would make me less angry? How do I hang on to my dwindling patience and empathy? Signed, throwing a fit and maybe kind of drafting up the O bit. over Nana's bullshit. Oh, man, you got icy there. This is another really tough question, though, man. Being a caretaker to an older person, not an easy role. Even when the person in question is easy and loving and fun to be around and positive, which is not the case here, this is quite a responsibility you and your mom have taken on.

35:04And everything you're dealing with, the anger, resentment, frustration, sadness, the dwindling empathy, actually, it just sounds all very normal. I wouldn't have lasted as long as you have. I don't even know her. she made a dig about my voice and I'm already like, die alone. I'm sorry. That was terrible. Your grandma's a tough customer. And I'm sure that there are some good reasons why she is the way that she is. It sounds like she's had a hard life or at least recently. It sounds like she's getting in her own way, right? She's not trying to feel better. She just wants to take pills. She's being horrible.

35:34She's alienating the two people she needs most. And she knows she's doing that probably. Or there's early onset dementia. I don't know how to say this delicately. She's kind of a witch. Yeah. And that's on her. And the fact that you stuck it out this long without pushing her wheelchair down the stairs is amazing. Again, sorry. I was dark in the sign off. Jesus. I'm not saying you should do it or that you should do it while she's in it. I'm just saying I understand the impulse to start looking up rat poisons on Amazon. That's all I'm saying. Again, very question one relevant. Anyway. Yeah. Okay.

36:07Killing grandma. What a way to kick off your answer. I appreciate it. I'm just, I'm a little worked up, Gabe. Our friend here, I can tell she has sacrificed a lot to take care of this woman and she's just not getting anything back. I'm angry. It's not even my grandma. And again, look, I have empathy. I'm obviously making just cruel jokes for the sake of humor here, but it's just exhausting on top of exhausting. And then to have somebody be like, you're fat and you looked better with longer hair. It's like, you know what, grandma, come on. Yeah, dude. I mean, this grandma, she's just like determined to be a wretch kind of.

36:37And it's like, what do you do with somebody like that? They're just constitutionally miserable. I don't know, man. I'm kind of at a loss because this woman, she needs care, but she's objectively mistreating two extraordinarily kind people who are literally saving her life. She didn't get into the details on what this woman needs, but we're talking about like butt wiping and cleaning up stuff. People don't want to clean up their own stuff, let alone someone else's stuff. They're really going way above and beyond and they're doing it for free. and she's all, I don't want to sell my house to have someone do this with you.

37:09I mean, it's so selfish. Good point. And look, we don't know if there's something else going on. Maybe her pain is so severe she's in agony and can't think. Like I said, maybe there's some dementia at play or something and I would want to be compassionate about that. But you know, I don't totally buy that. I think if you're a basically decent person in a lot of pain, you're still usually pretty decent. You're not mocking your granddaughter and gossiping about your own daughter and banging on about how the ethnics are taking over. So if this were my grandma, honestly, I'd be thinking nursing home.

37:43I know that's not an option for everyone, but it is an option for you guys. There are definitely nursing homes that allow pets, period. I'm damn sure you could find a place for her dog, which is a great idea. It'd make the whole transition easier. And I know she doesn't like the idea of having to sell her house to pay for assisted living, but I think that one, tough cookies, and two, is she really in a position to decide what she likes and doesn't like, is that more important than finding a fair solution that keeps everybody sane? Good question. I don't know about that. It sounds to me like she could really use some more involved care, especially, look, she's not willing to do physical therapy.

38:19She's not willing to take care of herself. This is gonna free up you and your mom to A, live more of your lives and not suffer unnecessarily, and B, and I think this is possibly the most important point here, you can actually have a relationship with your grandma that is not poisoned by the kind of patient that she is. A quick aside here, I know we're running long. My mom took care of my grandparents and towards the end, my grandpa was fine. My grandma was a nightmare. My mom at the end felt bad and I remember her crying all the time and she was like, I just want her to die. And she didn't say it like that, but I know she felt like that because my grandma would dress her down all the time, tell the nursing home employees that my mom was abusing her, terrible, never visited.

39:02and then after a while they were like, oh, we see you like twice a week. This is just BS. It took such emotional and mental toll on my mom and I'm thinking, I wonder if my mom would remember her mother more fondly if she hadn't had the last five or 10 years of complete drama nonsense kookery that she had to deal with the whole time. My grandma was in an assisted living facility. She was just really talented at driving everyone insane. Wow, that sounds intense. Yeah, it was bad. I mean, my grandma was a little kooky. She told me about getting in fights when she was younger. This is a woman who grew up going to like speakeasies and getting in fights.

39:40What woman does that in 1940? Amazing. Right? That's not, this is a trashy woman. I mean, look, dude, I'm with you. I think it would solve a lot of problems, but I do know in certain cultures or in certain families, putting somebody in a home, just not an option. And some older people really can't stand the thought of going into a nursing home. But these places exist for a reason, and this woman probably needs that level of care. My only other piece of advice, whether you keep helping your grandma like this or if you find another arrangement, is I would really make sure that you have a way to process all of this stuff.

40:13Because this resentment that you feel is very intense, and spending this much time around a person who is in severe pain, and I'm talking mostly about the mental pain, but even the physical pain, that is very hard. And like Jordan said, you're not being paid for this. This is not your profession. And you haven't been trained to deal with patients who are this difficult. And that is a whole art and a science in and of itself. The fact that she's your grandma, though, adds a layer of responsibility that complicates the picture even further. I'm guessing that stepping away from your duties and maybe leaving your mom to do more work might bring up a lot of guilt for you, which would also be something to look at.

40:51Because again, I find it very touching that you guys are taking care of your grandmother like this. But honestly, there's also a part of me that wonders whether this is really your burden to bear, at least to the degree that you are. Yeah, I had the same thought earlier, Gabe. This is really her mom's duty primarily. I think it's sweet that she's helping her mom, but I would even encourage the mom to consider whether this is the best way to care for her mother. See also what my mom did, right? There's also this thing you said in your letter that you think about your grandma almost all day, every day, and it's starting to affect your mood, your relationships.

41:21That really stood out to me. That stood out to me in a way that it's sad, right? grandma's living rent-free in her head 24-7. It's not just when she's over there, which means she never gets a break. Even when she's at home watching Netflix with her boyfriend, she's thinking, is my grandma okay? Is she going to be mad that we left early so that I could have dinner with my fiance? I mean, that's awful. So that says a lot. And it says a lot, not just about your grandmother and her personality and how much energy she sucks up, but also about how you relate to her and how the responsibility of taking care of her lives on in you, even when you are not physically with her.

41:54So I wonder, Jordan, if there are some fuzzy boundaries here a little bit in this family, and maybe some ambiguity about how they're supposed to care for people, and maybe some really very difficult feelings like the guilt we just talked about, of course, but also the anger, you know, the confusion, if you were to separate a little bit more and not think about her all the time. That is something you can work on, and I think it would bring you a lot of relief so that you can be there for your grandma when it's appropriate, when you're there, when you should be, and you can still have a happy life and functional relationships when you're done, which, dude, you deserve, and which is the only sustainable way to care for anybody.

42:34Well said, Gabe. There is a big piece here that is hers, and it's definitely about how she's processing everything this very crotchety, hurtful old lady is bringing up for her. It's a fascinating opportunity for her to take a look at why this woman gets under her skin in the way that she does and how she can work through these feelings a little better so they don't get stuck and drag her down. Yes, but in the meantime, I would definitely talk to your mom about all of this and see how she's feeling about the arrangement and maybe share some of these ideas and see what she thinks, especially about long-term what the right solution is for your grandma.

43:09At a minimum, I feel like you guys are probably feeling similar things and it would just be very nice for you guys to vent a little bit and to connect over it and make sure that you guys are helping each other get through this. For sure. If you can do all that, I think you'll find the patience and empathy that you're looking for. But there are definitely some moves here, and I think it's time to at least consider them. Sending you and your mom a hug, my latest hater, old Grammy one star over here. I guess she gets a hug too. Poor woman, already had a tough life. Then she has to listen to this voice box.

43:40My condolences, Nana. You know what you're definitely gonna wanna take with you into the nursing home, Gabriel? The products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I do invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support one of our amazing sponsors or more than one for that matter. All the links, deals, discount codes, and ways to support the show are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can always search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well.

44:10Don't be like Gabriel and buy us a Christmas gift that didn't use the code even though they were a sponsor of the show. Go to jordanharbinger.com slash deals and see what you might want for yourself or a loved one or grandma. Thanks so much for supporting those who support the show, other than Gabriel, who didn't do that exact thing. Now, back to Feedback Friday. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, I take care of gardens for a living, and I've had a client in his 70s for the last three years who, over time, has become my friend. Two years ago, he offered to mentor me, as he's owned his own business for many years.

44:47I accepted the offer since I've been struggling to own a business, and once or twice a month, we'd get together for lunch, and I would talk about issues I was having, such as lacking the courage to charge as much as I should, and he was good at giving pep talks. About a month ago, I mentioned over lunch that I was going to be going to Hawaii the following week with my husband. As I was leaving, he asked me to take pictures of myself in a bikini to send to him while I was away. His comment really unsettled me, but I just kind of laughed it off. The next day, my husband tested positive for COVID and we had to cancel our trip to Hawaii.

45:22I texted my client about canceling our trip and asked if he wanted to schedule garden maintenance for that week. His reply was that I shouldn't waste the tickets and that instead I should go to Hawaii with him. His exact words were, we'll behave, I promise, but we'll have a ball, followed by a winky face emoji and emojis of palm trees and bikinis. So cringe. My goodness. I was disgusted and outraged, so much so that I blocked his phone number and completely ghosted him. But I forgot to block him on Gmail, and two months later I get an email from him saying something to the effect of, If you were trying to hurt or punish me, you've succeeded.

46:03And I can't believe you'd throw away three years of friendship over a couple of comments I made in jest. I can't even remember exactly what I said. That day was the first time I'd smoked weed since my stroke. Can we just please work this out? I responded with a long email explaining that I had started to recognize a pattern in my life of older male mentors suddenly hitting on me. I explained that this wasn't the first time this had happened to me, that I seemed to be a magnet for this kind of thing. I thought I might have some serious daddy issues at the root of it all, that my father used to get drunk and say inappropriate things to me as a teenager, and that we had an emotionally incestuous relationship.

46:42It's weird, but in some ways I only felt alive when my dad was showing me attention, or when I was being of service to him in some way. I lived to get praised by him, and his praises, most often, were about how sexy I was. Quote, prettier than all my cousins, unquote, because of my hip-to-waist ratio, quote unquote, and my almond eyes. It got to the point where my mom would get jealous of how much attention my dad was showing me and take it out on me. So neither parent was a safe place. Why, hold on, Gabe. I gotta clarify here. First of all, that's really weird. Dad talking about kid hip to wait, this, that's, ugh.

47:22But hold on, did she then email this guy, this client mentor, all of the family stuff in the email? Or is she just filling us in on her life story? I'm getting the sense that she actually included this in the email. Okay, that's interesting and a key piece of information if that's the case, I think. Let's come back to that. Okay. For sure. Okay, so it goes on. In my 20s, my dad had an affair that gave him an STD scare. He asked me if he could borrow$200 to go to the doctor for testing because if he used his credit card, my mom would find out. I gave him the money because I've always been the keeper of all his secrets, and I was proud of that.

48:01It made me feel special, loved, and needed. By the way, he never paid me back the$200. I love that she included that. And he stiffed me on the tab. Anyway, I wrote all this stuff to my client as an explanation for... There you go. So she included this for sure in the letter. Okay, yeah, okay. I wrote all this stuff to my client as an explanation for why his comments were so triggering to me and why I had to ghost him. Wow, so she definitely told him all that in the email. Wow, okay. He wrote back apologizing and said if he had known all that stuff, he would have been more careful about what came out of his mouth.

48:34He made it clear that he still wanted to be in my life and was wondering if we could start over. I don't really want to keep a friendship going with him, but I can't help feeling that maybe I was overly mean to him. But then there's a part of me that's still feeling repulsed and really angry at him. I'm just not sure this strong of an emotion is warranted. Am I being too harsh? Am I actually just angry with my dad? Should I have been offended enough to break off the relationship? What should I do? Signed, feeling my heart harden, but wrestling with this pardon while I tend this tricky garden. Oh boy.

49:13Okay. This story really grew legs, didn't it? It really did. Wow, such a fascinating situation. Layers, layers to this story. Always the layers. She's getting into this very weird, unsettling dynamic with this older man who wants to mentor her. And then there are these huge wounds in her childhood, this very creepy and confusing template with dad, which she seems to see really clearly now, which I think is impressive. I'm guessing you went to therapy and learned a lot there. And man, Gabe, can you really hear her childhood echoing in her life now? You sure can. And not just in the relationship with this client, but she's also in such conflict about which feelings she should listen to and whether she even has the right to feel the way she does, which I think she does.

49:54Whether it's okay for her needs to take precedence over this creepy guy's needs. It's almost one-to-one, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. And it's interesting. I'm seeing a parallel between this question and the one we tackled last week from the woman who wanted to know if it was her fault that she kept ending up in abusive relationships. Yeah. And she was asking us, do I attract these people? And this woman is saying, I seem to be a magnet for these kinds of creepy dudes. Yeah. What's going on here? In both cases, we're talking about how unconscious dynamics and complicated patterns, they can lead you into situations again and again until you wonder, why am I here again?

50:29Right. It's the jigsaw puzzle metaphor that I screwed around with last week. So our friend here, she obviously sees her childhood clearly. She knows what happened with her dad. What I think she doesn't understand as well is the legacy of that childhood in terms of how it makes it hard for her to spot these dynamics early and learn how to protect herself or how to separate from it without being in so much drama or turmoil. That's exactly right. She has this pattern of older male mentors suddenly hitting on her. And God knows she's not alone there, right? This is obviously something men, especially men of this guy's generation, I think it's safe to say, generally not as attuned to.

51:08Yeah, this dude is the Vietnam era, I think, right? He's not keeping up with hashtag Me Too and reading horror stories on Reddit about guys who make women uncomfortable. He missed the memo, I think. Yeah, missed the memo completely. But he also sounds quite manipulative. I mean, she pulls back hard, as she probably should. And he kind of, in my view, played the victim a little bit. Like, if you were trying to hurt or punish me, you've succeeded. Right, yeah. I can't believe you'd throw away three years of friendship over a little comet. I mean, I smoked a fat doobie for the first time since Obama left office.

51:38Wham! I'm the victim here. Like, dude, stop with the excuses. Either take the L or apologize and make this right. I'm hearing some, I guess it's narcissism in here. A little bit. Tone deafness at bare minimum. For sure. Basically, I'm hearing a guy who's so much more concerned with his experience than her experience. Like, all I did was sexually harass you. Why are you going to make a big deal about it? Well, who does that sound like? Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, right? It's dad.

52:10For real, though. That sound effect has never hit so hard. No. Like you said, it is, again, pretty one-to-one. Or at least, look, there are shades of dad in here, I think. An older man, he's being wildly inappropriate with her, kind of trampling over her boundaries, appealing to her sense of loyalty and compassion after he does something not cool. He's creating a secret. Oh, yeah, that's wild. She was the keeper of all dad's secrets. And she said she was proud of that. It made her feel special or something like that, right? Made her feel loved, made her feel needed, yeah. Yeah. And dude, that is powerful.

52:45That's very gratifying to a child, especially a certain kind of child, you know, one who might be a little precocious or iced out by mom and really needing to feel loved and needed and validated wherever you can get it. It makes sense. Yeah. It's sad. It is really sad. And I realize that this is almost too textbook. I know it feels like a little neat, but sometimes this stuff really is this linear. So just to be clear, what we're saying is it might be hard for her to know how to handle this guy, how to feel about him because in some sense, he's recreating the dynamic she had with her dad, which was a little screwed up, right?

53:19It's possible. And by getting into this relationship with him, into the messy territory with him, she might herself be reenacting that old material with him. And possibly the other older mentors who have done kind of the same thing or something similar. Well, look, we don't know for sure, but it's possible. And these are situations, look, where she's getting attention, She's getting validation. And also, to be fair, maybe some genuine support that she really needs. Look, she really wanted a mentor. I get that. But these relationships are then also coming with these messy boundaries and these minor violations and this kind of like inappropriate, vaguely icky, are we friends?

53:58Are we mentors? Are we more kind of thing? I get the sense that that's hard for her to maybe even clock those situations as inappropriate because her internal barometer for what's okay and what's not okay might be quite miscalibrated. And if she could clock it, it might still be very scary for her to say to somebody, hey, listen, I'm happy that we're friends. Thank you for helping me out with my business, but I'm not feeling totally clear or comfortable with what's happening here. And I would just like to have a moment to talk to you about it and define this a little bit better and just get clear on what our relationship is actually about so that we can have the client slash mentor mentee relationship that I would really like.

54:37Right. Because as we just saw, it might come with this unconscious cost of, am I hurting this person? Am I the bad guy for drawing a line? Yes. Am I losing someone important by sticking up for myself? This is the residue of this complicated childhood, in my opinion. That's exactly right. That's the echo. So to answer your question, what are you supposed to do about all this? I think let's start by acknowledging that this guy crossed a line. he wanted something from your relationship that you didn't. He expressed it in a kind of cagey, cutesy way, but it was quite brazen. And when you got angry and you told him why he didn't sit well with you, he didn't really apologize and he didn't take the time to repair things with you.

55:16He just kind of jumped straight to, well, I still want to be in your life. Can we start over? So your anger and your repulsion and this sense of real betrayal, I think are entirely normal. them. They're appropriate. And maybe let's just start by acknowledging that it is okay to feel those things about another person. The anger piece is especially interesting, Gabe, because she's asking, am I actually angry with my dad? Like through this client. And I think in a way, yeah, she's angry at her dad in the sense that she might be locating her father and all these different men who cross a line with her.

55:47But that doesn't mean she's not also legitimately angry at this guy. Yes, absolutely. And I also wonder if she might be a little angry at herself. for, what, not drawing a line sooner or keeping the boundary? For not drawing a line sooner, maybe. I'm assuming she saw some signals that there was something else going on here, potentially, and she didn't maybe take a moment to clarify early on like we just talked about. But also angry at herself now for being so confused about whether she's allowed to be angry. Like she said, I'm just not sure that this strong of an emotion is warranted. So telling.

56:20Yeah, like, why is it so friggin' hard for me to just feel my feels? Why am I tied up in knots about this? he's the creep, but then maybe I'm overly sensitive and I'm being a jerk about this. Exactly. So are you being too harsh? No. If this guy is not a safe person for you, if it doesn't feel like a fair relationship, then it's okay to pull back or end the relationship, which by the way, you did. You just forgot to block him on Gmail and he came in through the back door. But the value in appreciating some new facets of your anger is knowing how much of that anger is appropriately directed towards this guy, how much is appropriately directed at dad, and how much might be directed toward yourself.

56:58And to be clear, I'm not advising you to be harsh to yourself. I would actually suggest the opposite. Having more curiosity, more compassion for why you responded so strongly to this guy and to the situation. And also why she shared all that stuff with him in the email. I just still think that's really interesting. It is. I mean, look, maybe she just really wanted this guy to know why he upset her so much. I get it. But there's a world where she could have said, look, I'm hurt. I'm disappointed about what you said. I don't think it's appropriate for us to continue this relationship. Sorry, but I'm pulling back.

57:28Goodbye. Totally fair. And yet. But the over explaining. That might speak to the part of her that, again, just doesn't feel very secure saying, hey, this is not OK. You did something wrong. I'm out. And then not feeling the need to justify it so much. Like, here's the thing. I have this childhood pattern. And so it really did it like none of his business. And also, you can be mad at a guy without being like, here's the whole reason why. No, you did a jerky thing. The end. Well, what you're getting at now is I think that there may be some hints of a trauma response in there somewhere. Just being so careful to manage the other person's experience, kind of over explaining, over justifying, not knowing always which audience to bring something to.

58:12But, you know, Jordan, that might also speak to the part of her that really wants to be understood, you know, respected, even if it's by the wrong person. I can see that. Like, hey, this is my past. This is my trauma. This is real stuff. I'm dealing with and you just activated it and I don't like it. Maybe that email to this guy was also for her, you know, for her to articulate this wound so she can understand it better. So that really brings me to my final thought for you and it will not be a surprise, but I think there's still a lot more for you to understand about your childhood and hopefully heal about your childhood, especially how it keeps popping up in these relationships now.

58:46And ideally you do that in therapy. It sounds like you were there in the past. If you're not anymore, I would get there again. And this story with this latest guy, I know it was really difficult, but what an interesting, productive thing to bring into session. I know that if you can dig into the stuff we just touched on today, and there's so much here, I know that you can heal the stuff that might be unconsciously leading you into these dicey situations. And also all the stuff that makes it really hard sometimes to know what to do with these people, how to handle these conversations when they arise.

59:18Amen, Gabe. I know she can do it as well. So, hey, look, I hope that gives you some new angles here, some stuff to explore. I really admire your openness and your curiosity about all this. The more you bring this stuff to light, the more you get in touch with all these conflicts in your life now, the more you can rewrite this stuff. It ain't easy. It ain't always fun, but it's absolutely doable. And I think it's really important. So we're sending you a big hug, not a creepy one, just a very normal one from afar from a couple podcasters who care and don't want to secretly go to Hawaii with you, and we're wishing you all the best.

59:51I can get my own bikini photos. That sounded just as creepy. All right, what's next? Dear Jordan and Gabe, my mom is 88 years old, and a few days ago, she was put on hospice care as her organs are starting to shut down. My parents' first child was stillborn more than 60 years ago. They wanted something positive to come from his death, so they gave his body to science in the hope that the medical community could learn something from his death. In her will, my mom requested that her body also be donated to science, and reminded me of this request over the years. A few years ago, my brother passed away, and my mom requested that we do the same for him.

1:00:28I was on board because I always thought it was a noble, selfless choice. When I got to the funeral home to go over the arrangements, though, the funeral director strongly advised against this choice. He said my brother's body would go to a school for embalming. Basically, the only bodies sent there were homeless people or people with no family or money. I just couldn't do it. I had him cremated. I explained it all to my mom, and she accepted it. But now I'm torn. I love my mom, and imagining her broken body being handled in this way upsets me. On the other hand, because I love my mom, I want to respect her wishes.

1:01:06What would you do if you were in my shoes? Signed, Becoming Unglued As I Confront My Mom's Finitude Oh man, well first of all I'm very sorry to hear about your mom That's gotta be a very intense transition to go through And I hope you're doing alright with that You sound like a very thoughtful and respectful daughter You're trying to do right by everybody here I'm sure your mom appreciated that a lot in her life She's lucky to have you looking out for her Especially on this So this is an interesting question And I think there are a couple angles here First of all, Gabe and I did some reading up on this and we are obviously not experts in this field at all.

1:01:41So we might not have everything right, but we did some homework. And what we learned about donating your body to science is quite different from what this funeral director told you. And I've gotten emails from show fans about donating your body to science in the past when we did our death industry piece on Skeptical Sunday, and there was no talk of what this funeral director mentioned. As far as we can tell, bodies donated to science when they're done through legitimate organizations that have real protocols and high standards, they really do end up being used for research or testing or teaching.

1:02:12It is very useful. It's very noble. Now, is there some world where a body could end up in a school for embalming? I suppose it's possible, but we couldn't find anything about that online. It sounds a little sus, to be honest. Also, I'm not even sure that's super terrible. Of school for embalming? Okay, I mean, they got to learn somehow. But anyway, even if a body ended up at a medical institution for research, I just have a really hard time believing it's gonna get turned over to another school to practice embalming and then casually discarded or something or mishandled. Also, many of these institutions, they cremate any remains that are not used in the research per state law.

1:02:51And some of them return the remains to the family, which is something you might wanna keep in mind. We're also gonna link to some articles we found about what actually happens at these places. It might put you at ease, give you some new angles on the decision. You can find those in the show notes. I'm a little puzzled by what the funeral director told you. Maybe he knows something we don't. But of course, there is a part of me, and I don't mean to get all conspiracy theory Jordan here, but we did that Skeptical Sunday on the death industry. I was pretty disturbed by what I learned. And there's a part of me that just wonders whether the guy that told you that told you that in order to sell you on a more lucrative option for him.

1:03:26Like, oh, you want to donate the body? Hmm, I don't make much money off that. Here's a casket that's 5Gs or a cremation that's 2Gs. That's where I'm leaning. Although you did say you ended up going with cremation, which funeral homes also don't typically love, well, dishonest ones, because it's less profitable than a traditional burial, I just don't know. What I do know is that donating your body to science should not be what that guy scared you into thinking. And if you do it with a legit institution, I think you can rest assured that your mother's body would be going toward a good cause and would be treated with dignity and with care and respect.

1:03:59I mean, that's just part of the deal. And obviously, my big bias here is that I agree with her. I think this is a great thing to do. And if this was your mom's wish, there's something to be said for honoring it. You know what I'm thinking about, Jordan? I'm thinking about the question from last week from the daughter whose dad was forcing her basically to take over his 3 ,000 books. The library? Yeah. Yeah. It's just such an interesting question, you know, how you balance your wishes with a dying parent's wishes. and our advice to that woman who wrote in is that's quite a big ask your dad is making of you and he wasn't the best father to you and it's okay to do what you want with those books after he's gone but your situation might not be so complicated if you come to the same conclusion that we did from the research if you feel confident that your mom's body will do some good and that's what your mom wanted and you feel like these people are going to treat her body with care i don't know if there's really much of an issue here so i say honor her wishes not just because they're her wishes, but because they generally fit with your interests and they fit with what seems to be true about this process.

1:05:02And I also agree with you. I think it's a nice way to create some additional value after she passes. I mean, look, you can literally save lives with this stuff directly or indirectly. It's pretty extraordinary. And if you want to still have a piece of her to visit or hang on to, then maybe you choose one of those organizations that returns the remains to the family and then maybe you get the best of both worlds, so to speak. I like that idea, Gabe. And I think she can feel pretty confident that her mom's body will be treated well. So I'm very sorry about your mom. Of course, I can hear how much you love her.

1:05:31She sounds like a person with a big heart. And I hope you and your family are doing okay. I hope you feel secure in whatever decision you come to, sending you and your whole family a big hug. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I want to thank everybody who wrote in and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out David Pacow's two-parter on becoming an arms dealer at age 20, if you haven't heard that yet. And if you want to know how I managed to book all these great folks for the show. It's about systems. It's about software. It's about tiny habits. Takes a few minutes a day. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing that I do on a regular basis in less than six minutes a day.

1:06:05It's on the Thinkific platform, jordanharbinger.com slash course. Of course, I'm talking about six minute networking. Dig that well before you're thirsty, folks. Don't ignore this stuff. I spent too long thinking networking was for old people. I wish I knew this stuff 20, 30 years ago. Not fluff. very crucial for business or your personal life. Again, free at jordanharbinger.com slash course. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes, advertisers, discounts, deals, ways to support the show are all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

1:06:39Go try the AI GPT-4 enabled chat bot, jordanharbinger.com slash AI. You can find any promo code from the show, any feedback, Friday question we've ever answered. And hey, if you wanna say something to me directly, I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, or you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

1:07:13Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. Remember, we rise by lifting others, Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful and the advice given herein to be responsible, or at least worth sharing, share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with Olympic speed skater Apollo Ono. To me, the power of belief is the real lesson.

1:07:46I could tap into this unknown reservoir of performance potential. I believed that there was a sixth gear that I had access to, that everyone else only had five. I truly believed that. I was able to use my fear of failure in a way that was so powerful, it became a superpower. But over long enough durations of time, it also became toxic. We all live as if we have this infinite life, right? We take things for granted. we're grinding and very natural human experience. I do this too. Life is this incredible gift. And so do not waste it on shit that is like, just like not worthy. It doesn't serve you and who you want to truly become.

1:08:31If there's one message that I can leave to people is that your choices to respond and react to the situations that you're meeting today are solely within your control. So whether you are hyper successful and you decide what you want to do next, Whether you are failing, miserable, and you're deeply unhappy, or you feel like you're just floating and you're just kind of like, ah, everyone seems like they all have it around me. It's all noise. The person that actually creates momentum and progress is the one that doesn't listen to that voice unless it's using it for fuel to actually make progression and positive movement.

1:09:03everything that I dedicate myself towards today. My life mission is about how do we create a more open communication channel to create conversation that actually moves and inspires and reminds people of the superpowers that we actually really all have within. For more with Apollo Ono, the most decorated winter athlete in Olympic history, check out episode 783 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.

1:09:33Thank you.