849: Whose Story to Pick When the Charge Is Sick? | Feedback Friday

23:02Yes. In fact, I think it was Dr. Ramani, the narcissism expert we had on the show, she talks about financial control as one of the narcissist's main tools. And that tracks. But, you know, I have a feeling that that leverage your dad has over you it might be more mental and emotional than financial. Obviously the money is real. Your dad owns the property you're renting. He owns a stake in the company. He's put up some money. Those are real things. But underneath the dollars and cents of it, I wonder if there's a deeper feeling like, I don't know if I can survive without my dad's help. Or if I cut ties with him, I'll devastate the guy and my mom.

23:36Or dad's gonna go apeshit if I try to separate. And sometimes those thoughts are the ones that keep us stuck in situations like this. more than the question of whether you can make the financial piece of this work. One way or another, your father has made you dependent on him. And to be fair, you've made yourself dependent on him by accepting his help maybe before you realized just how dysfunctional he is. And now you're trying to rewrite that script. So my strong feeling is that you need to distance yourself from your dad at a minimum in terms of the business stuff and possibly in the other parts of your relationship as well.

24:12But just in terms of the business, I would start putting together a plan to become independent. You said the business is small but somewhat successful. Great. I have a feeling you can make this work if you get creative. And basically, what you need to figure out is how to run your company with a minimum of input from your dad. Ideally, no input, in my opinion. Maybe that means paying him back the 25 grand, even if you have to save for a while or do it in installments or whatever. Maybe it means buying him out of his share of the company, which may be a tussle or a negotiation, but it's gotta be doable.

24:43And it definitely means finding a new place to live because right now he's your landlord, which means you have to deal with him and you're paying him. But more importantly, I imagine there's just a strong psychological association with your dad when you're living in one of his properties. That just can't be healthy for you. Staying in that physical space might be one of the main ways you're still exposed to him. You're kind of beholden to him because of that. And of course it goes without saying, I would come up with a solid plan to make sure you can really succeed without his support. So don't pull the trigger too quickly and then fumble and have to like go crawling back.

25:17You know, he's gonna use that against you. I'm not saying any of this is gonna be easy. Your dad might fight to hang on to his share. He might put you through the ringer on the negotiation. He might refuse to accept your reimbursement. He might insist you stay in the property he rented to you. I don't know how he could do that, but whatever. Or he might just make every step of the way just tedious, emotional, lash out at you in various ways for wanting to separate. Narcissistic controlling people do be like that. So you might have to prepare for a fight, but ultimately he can't make you do anything at this point.

25:49I mean, he might go full WWE on you on the front lawn if you try to move out, but that's when those jujitsu classes are really going to come in handy again, which I'm guessing, I don't think he's going to try it because it sounds like you straight checked his ass that day at the house. And I guarantee you, he was not expecting his son who was never a Marine and a tough guy like me to just pin his ass on the ground with an arm bar or whatever in the kitchen. And if you want to pay him back the loan, you're allowed to do that. Even if your relationship were great, and who knows, you said he's vicious in business, maybe he'll be happy to have the money back.

26:21Maybe he's going to want interest. Is it in the agreement? Is it written in there? But look, even if you don't succeed in cutting your dad out of the business entirely, you might be able to live with that for a while. But then you're going to have to find a way to keep that contact to a minimum. him. If you need to write him a check every so often, write him the check, treat it like a payment to a vendor. If you need a signature on some paperwork, you get the signature, you keep it brief, you keep it profesh, you go about your life. There might be a period where you're still tethered to the guy, but you can do a lot of work internally to not let that tether affect you more than it has to.

26:56Oh man, my strong advice though is just do all this very thoughtfully, very strategically with a minimum of emotion and drama because basically he can't control himself so you have to. I wouldn't go at him like, you abused me my whole life and my wife and I hate you, I'm buying you out and I'm moving on and you can't talk to the grandkids. Maybe don't go that route right off the bat. I would probably frame it more like, hey dad, thank you for helping me when I was down on my luck. I really needed your help back then. I'm doing better now, as you know. I'd like to be able to stand on my own two feet and I'm sure you'd like to see me finally do that too.

27:30So here are the ways I can start doing that. That's good. That's really good. Here's the thing you said you wanted all these years, even though you're probably just trying to control me because you're a freaking psycho. Clever. Then you peacefully negotiate the transition, but you frame it as you paying him back for his generous investment, which all the toxicity and abuse aside, I mean, he did do that. And you wanting to honor his investment by becoming independent, he might appreciate that. He might also be like, crap, I'm losing my grip of control on my son. But you know what? The more you approach him like that, I think the better this is going to go.

28:03So true. And once the logistical and financial stuff is squared away, then you can decide whether to cut off contact with him completely or to manage it to what degree, what the terms would be and all of that. But I would take a beat to think about whether you should cut him off entirely right now, because you might need to have a line of communication open with him, unfortunately, to sort out the business stuff and not to make that more difficult than it has to be. Fair point. My feeling is that he probably should at some point, just because this guy is physically and emotionally dangerous. For sure.

28:34This just is not a healthy parent. But you're right. He has to play the long game here. And also getting his dad out of his affairs might give him a lot of the protection that he feels he needs. I think it's all of this contact with his dad, which is enabled by the business stuff, that leaves him vulnerable to his dad's crazy. As for your siblings, I do think you can keep a relationship with them while you distance yourself from your dad. But I would talk to them directly and I would explain to them what's been going on. I mean, I suspect they already know what kind of guy he is and how it's affected you, but they do deserve to understand what went down between him and your wife, and they should be prepared for his response to you pulling back.

29:12Because unfortunately, your siblings might experience some blowback from this. I just don't see your dad taking this all in stride and being very reasonable. You know, we know that personalities like this love to gather as much validation and support from other people as they can. He'll probably want to recruit your siblings to his side. And that is also part of the control that he exerts. So part of your conversation with him might be, look guys, dad is not going to be happy with me for this. And I could see him trying to talk to you about it and maybe trying to rally you to his side. And I'm sorry that you might be stuck in the middle.

29:47I want you to be prepared for that. So let's talk about how you might respond to him when that happens. And then maybe you guys come up with a plan together as a family, whether they're going to side with him or whether they're going to stay out of it entirely, which is probably wise, or whether they're going to speak up and actually defend you when the time comes. I mean, they have to defend him, right? I don't see how they can back the dad here, but then again, I think it might be a better plan for them to just stay out of it entirely. That way, they're not antagonizing dad and they're not fanning the flames by pretending to agree with dad either.

30:18They're kind of in a no-win, right? One, they might not know dad's as crazy as he is or in denial of it, but two, they might also be like, really? I live with this guy. You're going to make me like stand on the line, sitting in the trenches, taking grenades while you take off with your wife and kid. No, thanks. My instinct is stay out of it and stay neutral and just let son and father work this out and try to just not get caught in the crossfire. But there's another part of me that wonders what would happen if most of the people in this family said, dad, you're wrong and you're acting like a crazy person.

30:48Would he finally be forced to concede that there's something wrong here? I don't know. Either way, I'm sure their dad is terrifying to them. And it sounds like his siblings are younger, right? So they must be more vulnerable to him. And anyway, they have to live in the house together. So they have more at stake in a way. So I would take a moment to just decide what kind of support you expect from your siblings and whether that's a fair expectation given their ages and their position and all of this. It might be a lot to ask. Frankly, as nice as it would be to have their support, I'm not sure you need it in order to start separating here.

31:18What you do need, in my opinion, is a strong relationship with your siblings no matter what, because that's what you need to protect as you go through this tumultuous period with your dad. I agree. I wouldn't expect too much back. You're putting them in a weird position, but also don't let your dad be like oldest son to screw up, decided to ruin our whole family. Like you want to make sure that they at least are hearing your side of the story. Right. And before we wrap this up, it's just occurred to me that what he's doing here, this is a big deal in this family. Mom unwilling to leave the marriage because of a religious beliefs.

31:52Maybe that's part of it, but she's freaking terrified of this guy. I bet if you put a couple of whiskeys in mom, it's not about Jesus. It's about the fact that she's terrified of dad. He was going to assault his daughter-in-law while holding his grandchild. What does he treat his wife like? Right? Come on. Good point. She's tolerating and maybe even enabling his dysfunction. This is not a family where it was or is safe to just appropriately stand up to dad and be like, Hey, this isn't right. You can't treat us like this. I need to protect myself. That's probably never happened in the history of this entire family.

32:23Right. And that's what he's getting ready to do. So I really commend him for that. Yes, I do too. It takes a lot of courage to rewrite these scripts and to get out from under the thumb of a father like this, especially when you add the money piece on top of it, which, you know, to your point, there's emotional aspect to that, but there's really a very practical aspect to that. I'm very confident that there's a whole world of freedom and relief and really great strength on the other side of this decision. And hey, who knows, this separation might even be the thing that allows him to maintain some kind of basic relationship with his dad, some functional connection with him, if that's what he ultimately wants.

33:02It's this really close and meshed financially enabled relationship that needs to be rewritten ASAP. I agree, man. Look, we're sending you a big hug, all of our confidence. You got this. Gabe, man, when I hear about parents like this, I always think about what their parents must have been like. Sure. So I'm an impatient piece of crap sometimes. That's just facts. Jen's like, man, calm down. It's, you know, so what if this like DoorDash dropped the thing? And then she met my dad and she's like, oh, I get it now. And then one day she was like, wait, what was your grandpa like? And then I have to explain how my dad got beat with wooden spoons as a kid.

33:40I mean, just think like Austrian dad born 1903 level of discipline. So it all tracks. Wow. So imagine what this crazy Marine guy's parents were like, if he's, I mean, he was probably abused by grandpa. There's almost no chance that that didn't happen. Hundo B, no chance. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line. That does make our job quite a bit easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes or a clever vixen is moving in on your father-in-law and getting access to his bank accounts, whatever's got you staying up at night lately.

34:16Hit us up Friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help. We keep every email anonymous. All right, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, I'm the oldest sister of two brothers. The youngest is 16, and he's been in a pickle for over a year because of his insane ex. We first noticed that she was crazy when they got together. She would message me telling me about all of the mental disorders she has. Schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder, among others. I was kind, of course, but I told my brother that she was clearly disturbed. She also harassed our other brother, which led him to tell her to stop messaging him.

34:54She got angry and decided she hated him and made it very clear every time she came over. A few months later, my family was supposed to move away, which triggered her, and she started being insanely toxic to my brother. He was losing his hair, barely eating, isolating himself. One time, she made my brother call my mom when they were together so she could yell at her about not feeling welcome in our family. Oh my goodness. She also made him give her all of our numbers and harassed all of us, telling us a bunch of horrible things about my brother. She alleged very serious things, sending huge paragraphs to my parents about how their relationship was toxic, how they failed to raise my brother right, and so on.

35:34Oh my god, this is terrible. They eventually broke up last year, although she kept harassing all of us. we all blocked her and moved on. In the end, my family didn't move away, which is unfortunate because that would have been ideal for my brother. He promised us that he had cut off all contact with her, but then yesterday she created fake Instagram accounts of my two brothers, followed people they know, and started posting weird porn stuff. She even messaged my other brother's girlfriend. It turns out my brother has been seeing her this whole time.

36:13Exactly. I'm very worried. This girl is unhinged and I think is capable of anything. What can we do to make my brother stop seeing this girl? How can we get him out of this situation once and for all? Signed, put through the ringer by this stage five clinger. Stage five clinger. I haven't heard that reference in a minute. Well, yeah, okay. The girl was right. This relationship is toxic, man. but not because of your brother's upbringing. Just big yikes. This is a real problem. Your brother is involved with a truly unstable person and for reasons we don't know, he can't draw a line and get out of the relationship.

36:53It's gotta be very disturbing to watch and upsetting for you guys to be affected by this directly too, I feel for all of you here, including this poor girl because look, as toxic as she is, she's obviously struggling with severe mental health issues. She's probably terrified as well. Who knows if she's getting the help she needs. I mean, mental health care in America sucks, generally speaking, from what I hear. Plus, her brother is 16 years old. I'm guessing this girl is around the same age. Yeah. This must all be very new for him. And look, it's a high school relationship on top of being a very insane one.

37:25So feelings are heightened and nobody is really well equipped to deal with this. And nobody has the life experience to put it into context. Yeah, this is a hot mess. Totally. So there's a lot going on here. My answer is very simple. I feel you guys need to hold a mini intervention with your brother and help him see his situation more objectively. I would sit down with him as a family, not one-on-one, but the whole family, maybe even bring in some close friends who have seen this relationship up close as well and tell him lovingly but directly just how problematic this relationship is, why you're worried about him, how this troubled girl and his ongoing relationship with her has affected all of you.

38:04And there's a lot for you to say here. Your brother really needs to hear some things. This is not just, you know, oh, it's hard for me to watch you be involved with someone who likes drama. This girl, by her own admission, is severely mentally ill. She's not taking any steps to address that. She's harassing you. She's harassing me. She's harassing brother and brother's girlfriend. She's harassing mom and dad. She's actively trying to ruin our reputations in the community. She's trying to cause pointless and creepy fractures in our family for no good reason. If this goes on, this will get worse and the repercussions could be much more severe.

38:41She could attack you. She could attack us physically. She could harm herself. She might rope you into it. She could accuse you of doing something terrible to her, get you in trouble with the police, ruin your life, your prospects for college and jobs. She could drag you into other compromising situations. This is not someone any of us should be in contact with in her current state. And if you keep seeing her, you are putting yourself and our entire family at very serious risk for absolutely no good reason. And you can all take turns saying versions of that and sharing what watching this relationship has been like for all of you.

39:20And then I would drive toward a very specific outcome here, which is you need to break up with this woman. You need to cut off all contact with her. You need to let her get the help she needs and the help that she deserves. and if he needs help doing that, maybe you guys step in a little more, you protect him from her, you tell her that she needs to keep her distance. Ideally, he does this by himself, but to Gabe's point, look, your brother's 16. He might be very innocent. He might be naive. He's so in over his head. He doesn't even know how to begin to have this conversation and he might need his older sister and or his parents to step in and help him tell this girl, you know, I'm sorry you're in so much pain, but it is time for this relationship to end and then maybe you block her on his phone for him or you take over his social media or you check in with him constantly about all this.

40:08I don't mean to infantilize or dominate your brother here, but I just get the strong sense that he is not equipped to protect himself here. I mean, he was secretly in a relationship with her. Why? That means he knows you don't like her and or he knows this is so effed up, but he is not in charge. She is. Yes, Hundo P. But to your point, the other half of this is helping her brother understand why, why is he still involved with her? It's so confusing. Is it though? I mean, that's the real question, isn't it? But I got hunches. I mean, I'm just mystified by the fact that he's still seeing her when she's done all of this.

40:42It's not like they see her this way and I see her that way. Like this is objectively awful stuff that she has done. It sounds to me like she right now does not have very many redeeming qualities. It's not like she's super nice and loving, but she randomly, you know, hallucinates or breaks down or freaks out. Like, she's a destructive, petty person. She's a nightmare on multiple levels. So what I would want to know, and it might have to be part of this intervention that Jordan is pitching, is what your brother seems to be getting out of this relationship. Or, if he's not getting much out of it, what it is about leaving that is so difficult.

41:14Well, I get a hunch about what he's getting out of it. But, okay, is he scared of her? Because that I can wrap my head around. Is she threatening him? Like, is she saying, if you leave me, I'll say that you raped me? Right. Or something, right? Does she have him under her thumb a little bit? But also, at that age, kids are often insecure. He might be like, she's the only one I can get. I don't want to be alone. She's not that bad, right? You see adults do that. Obviously, kids will as well. And also, that's the PC way to say this. Crazy can be exciting. Adult men date crazy women, too, all the time.

41:45I mean, it's a cliche, just like women date bad boys, right? those guys that are kind of dangerous and or are actually dangerous. It's not everyone, but it adds another dimension to relationships. Even if it's unhealthy, it might only be kind of like on a physical level. And some people are attracted to that. Maybe they're even addicted to that. They could be easily. Or is he sticking around because caring for someone like this feels very gratifying to him? Or he's afraid of giving up that love and attention that she does give him. I guess that was what you were kind of getting at. I don't read any of this as true love.

42:18I know you're getting that. If she's passionately crazy in negative ways, maybe she's passionately crazy in ways that are loving in the sack or otherwise. I suppose there's a world where your brother might feel that he has a form of attention from her, whatever it is, that is very precious to him. Yeah. I'm going to get in trouble for saying this, but here it goes. Never stick your wee-wee in crazy is a phrase that is batted around everywhere for a reason. Even better phrase when you use the word wee-wee. Yes, yes. Never stick your wee-wee in crazy. Can I just pitch? I feel like that should be like, don't stick your wee-wee in wonky.

42:52Don't stick your wee-wee in wonky? Yeah, fine, fair. If we need alliteration that bad. This is like a weird Victorian British version. We do. Wherever we can manage it, I would say we should go for it. I can't hear this letter and not think about my interview with Dr. Scott Lyons on overcoming the addiction to drama. Totally. I think that would be a really great listen for you right now and maybe for your brother and your parents. It'll give you a new lens on how this relationship is functioning for your brother, why this drama might be feeding a very real need in him and in this girl, and most importantly, how to break the cycle.

43:24The book's probably a good thing to pick up at this point. And hey, maybe it's something you share with him when the time is right, either before or after the intervention, depending on how receptive he even is to all this. I think it's a great idea. That was episode 836, by the way, for anyone listening, and we'll link to that in the show notes as well. I hope you get through to your brother. I do hope you can help him protect himself. I do worry about how much worse they could get if he lets it continue. And I also think that this is a really important opportunity to teach him how to identify problematic partners and handle them appropriately.

43:57If you guys approach him in the right way, you teach him a few things, you could save him years of pain and dysfunction. So good luck. And we're sending you and your family our best thoughts. Oh, you know what? one thing, if you talk to the girl directly, I would even screenshot all of her messages on Instagram or wherever she's sending these to you first. Talk to her, record the conversation, if it's legal in your jurisdiction. I'm worried about down the line, right? Let's say they break up, Gabe, and she's like, I'm going to post really bad, slander, defamatory stuff all over social media about how you beat me or something, right?

44:34And we've had letters like this. Friends don't know who to believe, yada, yada. But if you have a recording where she's like, I'm going to ruin your life if you break up with me, that's going to go a long way into getting people to believe that she's not the stable one. And this is all revenge nonsense. And it might even help in a lawsuit or talking to the police, school administrators, friends and family who she's now bothering and being like, did you know that so-and-so used to beat me? And that's why we broke. Like you just want as much evidence on the record as you can, not to go on the offensive, but to go on the defensive, should there be a need for that?

45:10Whenever somebody is like this, I always think how much worse can this get? And it can get worse, but it's not going to be as bad as staying together. That'll make things worse later. You got to let go of the wolf that you're holding by the years here. And again, all of our best. You know what else is clearly unhinged, Gabriel, the crazy good deals on the products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. This episode is sponsored in part by the GIST podcast. If you're looking for a news podcast that is smart, unfiltered, and doesn't just echo whatever side you already agree with, check out the GIST with my friend, Mike Peska.

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46:18He's an award-winning journalist. He's not some schmo like me who's totally unqualified. You've probably seen his work in the Atlantic, the Free Press, The Washington Post. He's got that rare mix of wit, skepticism, and depth that makes even heavy topics fun to listen to. And he's a great dinner guest, just saying. So if you want your daily news with more brains and less noise, check out The Gist with Mike Peska every weekday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. If you liked this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors.

46:49To learn more, get links to all the discount codes As you just heard, visit jordanharbinger.com slash deals. You can also search for any sponsor using the AI chatbot on the website as well. Thank you so much for supporting those who support the show. All right, back to Feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Hey, guys. I'm a veterinarian, and I was recently in an exam room with a very scented client. Baby powder scented perfume, maybe? The air smelled, the dog smelled. It was bad. My throat was itching. My eyes were burning. And meanwhile, the client was very roundabout in her communication. Oh, my God.

47:28Your eyes were burning? That's not just BO. That's like a health hazard. That's toxic at that point. I mean, this is one of my nightmares. People who just refuse to bathe and then make it everyone else's problem. I just can't with people like this. Oh, my God, dude. I just remembered something I think I've blocked out for many years. So I have this family friend, I think, of ours from another continent. let's say. And he wanted to come to LA for a while, like for a summer. He was going to get a place to stay, but he was like, can I crash with you guys for a few days or a week until I find a place?

47:59And so my mom put him up for a few days and then I said, I'll take him for a few days. And he shows up at my apartment. And as soon as he walked in the door, I was like, oh, this is a problem. Long flight, bro. He had been at my mom's house before this. Oh, right. And I was like, oh, this is awkward. By the way, I lived in a studio apartment. Yeah, like you're not just like, here's a room. I'm going to turn the fan on and open the window. Oh, my gosh. He's staying on the couch four feet from my bed. It was horrifying. It was the worst. And not only that, but when he moved in, like when he came over, he just kind of camped out on the couch and wasn't aggressively looking for a place to stay.

48:39Right. And I was like, so how are you having any luck finding places? You know, like while I hold my nose. He was like, oh, you know, yeah, but no. No, I'm thinking about looking on Thursday. It's like Monday. He's like, I might go get some coffee first. Yeah. Exactly. Then that week, he was sitting on the couch watching some sitcom, which was annoying on top of everything else that was happening, openly clipping his toenails in the living room while he was overstaying his welcome. Oh, man. And I just like stared at him for like a full minute. like is this actually happening and finally i was like i can't not say something i was like dude can you do that in the bathroom for me please like can you not put toenail shrapnel all over my shrapnel studio apartment like what are you doing and he was like oh yeah like it didn't even occur to him we should never share room just for the record because i am definitely a let me cut my toenails right now kind of guy but i'd like to think that i wouldn't be like let me cut them on your couch.

49:37Are you serious? You cut your toenails in the living room? No, I don't do that, but I might do it in a studio apartment if I had nowhere else to do it. Over a trash can or over the open floor? I don't know if I should keep talking.

49:52I plead the Fifth Amendment, actually. Shocking. Shocking to me this moment. I'm freaking out that you would do this. I don't know how I'm going to deal with this. I just think anywhere that you come and sit in my house could have been a bed of toenails just minutes before. I'm replaying that whole movie when we watched the talented Mr. Ripley at your house. Like, was I just rolling around in my toenail shrapnel, as you put it, lying on a bed of talons. Anyway, so what are we talking about here? So finally, I was like, how am I going to get this guy out? And so I, for him, let your house on fire, burn it down.

50:30You might as well with the toenails, light the whole thing on fire now. And so I literally posted on Facebook, hey, I have a friend visiting. He needs a place for a month or two. Does anyone have a place to stay? And somebody responded, yeah, I could take a roommate for the summer. So I'm like, hey, pack a bag, dude. We're going, we're driving there right now. I drive him to this woman's house. With the windows down. Obviously. I special ordered a convertible for the ride over. We get to this woman's house. We walk upstairs. And I have to say, this guy is not a mean person. He's very sweet. he's very gentle he's very nice he's just clueless and weird we get up there and they're like kind of hitting it off i'm like oh cool this is going well i could see this working out and she shows him the guest bedroom and she he's like yeah this is and it was an amazing apartment i was like you're welcome dude he's walking around like touring the apartment and we have a moment alone and she's like i just have to ask i mean i feel like i'm smelling a certain i don't know what it is maybe it's a cologne like she's being very like delicate and i was like i'm pretty ashamed that i did this but I was like, I don't know.

51:30I don't really notice. No, you're just like, it's all in your head. You just gaslit her. I totally gaslit her, dude. I feel terrible about this. Really does not. This story does not paint me in a very good light, but it's what I had to do. I was like, get out. But here's the reason I don't feel super bad about it. She was like, fine, it's going to work out. They've made an arrangement. He stayed for two. They became best friends. Really? This like 60 year old woman and this like 25 year old guy. and she had a fiance in another country and it was all like they were just buds and they like still are friends to this day and I think would stay at her house if he ever came back.

52:06It was so funny. So it all worked out perfectly, which is why I don't feel super guilty. But yeah, I shamelessly pawned this guy off on her and it was the only solution to the situation I could come up with. Oh my God. That's so funny. My first experience even realizing people had BO was when in the eighties, my close friend slash neighbor, his mom, she was a strange woman and she was like very into edgy stuff. Like she took the kids to the Soviet union on a vacation in the eighties, which is awesome. Okay. And she invited this Russian guy to come stay at their house. And I met this gigantic Russian man and he smelled so bad, but he was really freaking cool.

52:43He just smelled so bad. And she was like, over there, they don't bathe every day. They don't have stuff. And I was like, okay. But I just remember being like, does he not smell himself? Like, you know, he's been in the room for an hour after he's been in it. The whole house smells. It was hilarious, actually, because we were kids. We just thought it was funny. Anyway, what are we talking about right now? We never do this on the show ever. Go off on tangents like this. So if you're new, this is not the usual thing, but I have no clue where we left off. Let me take us back to the nightmare at hand.

53:15The letter goes on. Eventually, I told this client that I was having an allergic reaction, and I opened the exam room door for air. I made some recommendations for the dog, the owner declined them, and finally the consultation ended. She then complained to the front desk that I wasn't paying attention to her and was having an allergic reaction. In other words, she didn't get her money's worth because I wasn't honest and didn't tell her that she was stinky. I've never told a client something like that. I feel like they should hear it from someone else, and I should probably just deal with it. On the other hand, I can't give the best service when all I want to do is get out of the room as quickly as possible.

53:54Is there any way that you can tell your clients they smell bad? Or do I say nothing, since this is just a brief interaction with a new client? Signed, a vexed veterinarian dealing with a beastly barbarian. This person sounds super annoying. Not the writer, the client sounds super annoying, doesn't she? Definitely, She does. It's a tough situation, kinda, because a big part of me feels like we as a society, we should be able to say to people, look, I'm not trying to be mean here, but you have a real hygiene issue going on. It's making it impossible for me to do my job. Please come back when you've showered, and I'll be happy to deworm your dog, or whatever.

54:29But the other part of me is like, you just can't go around saying stuff like that to people. You just have to deal with it until the interaction is over. And I don't like that. I know, I don't like it either, because why do we have to put up with their hygiene issue? Like, why is it our problem now? And they get a free pass. Exactly. You live in a society. You're not some Ted Kaczynski hermit, the Unabomber, who lives in the woods and never wants to interact with another human being. You're interacting with people, with professionals. You're asking them to take care of your dog. It's not unreasonable to ask that you do not induce the same symptoms as sarin gas, right?

55:04What was the thing that they killed Kim Jong-nam with at the airport? Like VX or something? Oh, yeah, what was it? VX? Yeah. Which also sounds like a Russian social network. That's true. If I'd rather be pepper sprayed than be in the room with you, that's a freaking issue, man, and it's not my fault. But also, to your point, this woman sounds like a difficult human being. Our friend here made some recommendations, despite the fact that she was nerve gas attacked by this woman's armpits, and the woman just said, nah, I'm good, like, I don't want your advice. Yeah, like, the reason your dog has skin conditions is because you've never bathed him, and he clearly sleeps on, like, a dirty floor.

55:38It's because he needs surgery. Goodbye. Right. No, he needs a special medication. I've been putting my stale baby powder scented perfume on him and he still smells. There's obviously just something wrong with this woman. And I guess that's another layer here, which it's hard for me to remember sometimes, which is if you smell this bad, I'm guessing that you have some real challenges in life. Maybe you weren't raised properly. You struggle with social cues. You have mental health issues that get in the way of taking care of yourself. or you're from the Soviet Union. That excuse is now off the table.

56:10It's like, how angry can you get at somebody who is so compromised that they can't even scrub down with some dove once a week? Right. Give me a little Irish spring for crying out loud. Nice hard tongue roll on that. You remember those commercials? I do. Where the person turns Irish while they're in the shower? Yeah, I wish this woman turned Irish once a week. That would be great. At least. Yeah, it's a good point. On the one hand, these people are like a nuisance and on the other hand, they're kind of like sad victims or something. So is there any way you can tell your clients they smell bad? I'm not sure.

56:41I'm inclined to say that because they're a client and you're the vendor providing a service, you might have to put up with it. Because like you said, they should probably hear from someone else. Your relationship with them is more transactional. But if a person's hygiene is literally getting in the way of you doing the job, providing the service that they are paying you for, then I wonder if it is within your right to say, look, I'm really sorry, but I'm finding it impossible to give your pet the attention they deserve. And it's because you or your dog need to take a bath. So why don't you guys go do that?

57:13And we can schedule another appointment for you. Yikes. I mean, that's a hard message to deliver, but you're making a good point. I have a little dark Jordan light idea here. Oh, let's hear it. Since the dog smells bad too, what if she tells the owner, you know, hey, listen, it's possible you've gotten used to this, but your dog has a really strong odor and it's making it hard for me to treat him. And I can guarantee that the people you interact with when you're with him are noticing it too. This is a health issue. So my professional recommendation is that you bathe your dog regularly. Maybe you even bring the dog into the shower with you and you bathe him at the same time.

57:50And that's known to increase bonding between owner and pet or whatever, you know, kind of just blame the dog and hope she picks up on the subtext. And you can also hint that the dog smell quote unquote may be rubbing off on her and causing her to smell. Basically just blame the stank-ass dog hygiene on her dog's hygiene. See what I did there? I like it. It's a tall order that this woman's going to pick up what she's putting down, but I like it. It's a nice approach. But I'm actually, look, honestly, I'm most concerned about the dog here because the dog can't bathe itself. This is a bad dog owner.

58:23It is. So maybe our friend here should focus mostly on telling people like this what they need to do for their pets, not so much on what they need to do for themselves. If she were a human doctor and this woman were her patient, then it would be absolutely appropriate to say, look, your hygiene is a problem, and I would be a bad doctor if I didn't tell you that you are at serious risk if you don't shower more regularly. But it's the dog she's seeing. Yeah, it's a good point, right? She's a vet. She's there for the dog. But like you said, this woman is getting in the way of her treating the dog.

58:52So there's got to be other situations where vets are like, hey, you need to do this thing as a human to make your dog's health improve. I mean, they tell her to give medication all the time. Yeah, but also, you know, it doesn't sound like this woman is coming back. That's true. So I'm guessing she's not your problem anymore. I would maybe just have a chat with your supervisors, your team, bring this up at the weekly staff meeting at the clinic or whatever and see what the clinic's policy should be about patients like this. It's kind of fascinating and maybe it's not the last time this is going to happen.

59:20So it could be a good precedent. I think that's a good call. Gabe, is that woman you pawned that guy off on looking for a roommate slash dog sitting situation? I feel like she might be the secret weapon for people like this. Yeah, totally. She would be perfect for this. She should, yeah. If you ever have a terrible gross dog, you just give it to this lady. Yeah. Hey, I need a dog sitter. Comes back all fluffed up. It'd be funny if everybody in her life just pawns off the worst smelling people and things on her. She's like the sin eater. That's what happens when you're too nice, right? And that segues nicely into our next question, I believe.

59:48What do we have on deck? Hello, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in my early 40s and got divorced from my wife a few years back. When I got divorced, I lost most of our friends, partly because they were her friends and partly because my ex made me promise not to tell anyone that she was divorcing me, saying she had been with me because I was the safe option and had now found someone who actually interested. Oh my God, that is so hard to hear. I am very sorry that happened or not. Maybe let's see how the letter goes. That was the low point in my life, but I continued to work on myself, became a volunteer firefighter and paramotor pilot, bought and paid off my own house, lost over 40 pounds, and I now plan on retiring in three to four years.

1:00:34I've also surrounded myself with great new friends and neighbors and dated a little bit with my longest relationship lasting nine months. I'm a very curious guy. I pride myself on the fact that I can have a deep and meaningful conversation with pretty much anyone. Well, there it is. That's amazing. Can we just stop and appreciate how awesome the story just turned around? I think so. Yeah, seriously, you're killing it, man. I'm sorry you went through the painful divorce, but talk about bouncing back. I'm proud of you on this one. Sorry, proud Uncle Jordan over here. Carry on. I just feel like that must have been quite the dropkick and he turned it around.

1:01:07He did turn it around. Good on you. Lately, though, I can't help but feel like no one really knows me. I've learned that being a good conversationalist means asking open-ended and inquisitive questions to let the other person talk. This is also a trait that I got from growing up with my slightly narcissistic mother. This often puts me in the position of knowing a lot about the person I'm interacting with, but them never really knowing anything about me. I've had many conversations that span hours, only to come home and realize that it was really just me listening to them talk. This leaves me with the feeling like I'm just being used for my time, like the people in my life don't care about me, since they can't be bothered to ask me questions.

1:01:47I've since ended a few romantic relationships because my girlfriends didn't seem interested in my life or my pursuits. I feel like I would be an interesting person to talk to, yet I keep getting disappointed that no one is making the effort to get to know me. Am I wrong in thinking that if these people cared about me, they would make the effort to ask me about my life? Or is this what I should just expect moving forward? How can I get that feeling that people actually care about me? Signed, The Contorted Conversationalist. Man, such a great question. So I suspect that one of three things is going on here.

1:02:22The first thing is, you might be choosing partners who are a little self-absorbed, a little dominating, or maybe just not as interested in you. The second thing is, you might be showing up in those relationships in a way that feeds that self-absorption, that dynamic, or sort of permits that lack of interest in you. The third possibility is these people aren't narcissists. They're just not used to having somebody really listen to them, especially a guy, and they're soaking it up, they're loving it, and that can leave somebody like you feeling unappreciated or somehow missed, but maybe it's not intentional.

1:02:58It's not a sign of a personality flaw. Or all three could be going on in some measure or another. This is probably way more complex than we even know, but my gut is that there's a very subtle dance that happens between you and these women, And to be fair, a lot of it might be happening internally within you, even if it feels like it's coming from them. This feeling you find yourself having a lot, that you're just being used for your time, like the people in your life don't care about you or seem interested in your life, that feeling might arise because of the way you operate in relationships. Your curiosity, your deep desire to understand people and really listen, I think it's fantastic.

1:03:36It's a superpower. It comes from a good place, namely a genuine desire to connect. And it might also be a way for you to sort of hide, to shine the spotlight on the other person, take a step back into the dark yourself, to cling to a certain role, the guy who supports other people, who cares about other people, who gets to have a certain access to them. In that role, it might be very familiar. And yes, I'm sure that had a lot to do with the mother you had, how you learned to operate because of her. Very common, totally normal. Well, I'm guessing there's a part of that role that feels extremely gratifying because, you know, you're becoming intimate with these people.

1:04:13You feel useful. You feel important. And there's another part of that role that feels, yeah, not great. Yeah, because you know deep down that there isn't real intimacy there and that the price you pay for being so connected and important is, you know, you lose yourself. So I actually think it is healthy that you got a little angry here. That tells me you're noticing this pattern. It doesn't sit right with you. and you're ready for a new experience with other people, which is awesome. So my advice, my hope for you really, is to start sharing more of yourself in your relationships. Take up a little more space.

1:04:48I would almost treat this as a little experiment. Try it out, see what happens. I'm not saying stop asking questions, stop being a good listener. I'm saying keep listening and open up a little more. Connect what they said to something you've experienced. Find a parallel in your own life. Try kicking off the conversation with your own stuff first. When you notice that tendency to shrink back and make it entirely about the other person, short-circuit that by claiming the spotlight, just for a moment. And if you struggle to do that, you can even say, man, it's funny, I really enjoy listening to you talk, I prefer that role in a conversation, but sometimes I think I come across as quiet and shut down, which isn't my intention.

1:05:27Even that is sharing something of yourself, and it opens a window for the other person to go, oh, interesting, tell me about that, or, oh, let's talk about you. I've been talking your ear off. And it's okay if it's hard for you or you're a little clumsy. The important thing is that you're literally rewriting the dynamic. Yeah, so true. But honestly, more than balancing the scales in your conversations, I'm interested to know what sharing more of yourself will show you about you. My guess is that it will feel a little uncomfortable. It might feel, I don't know, a little precarious. It might even, ironically enough, feel narcissistic of you, which for the record, it's not.

1:06:03and that it will feel pretty fulfilling with the right person. The other upside to forcing yourself to speak a little bit more is I think it'll help you figure out which of these people in your life really are narcissistic or uninterested in you and which ones were just following your cue to make it all about them. The ones who don't seem interested in you when you talk more, those might be the ones who really are self-absorbed and then you'll know, oh, okay, this is not my person, right? These are not the people I should be choosing and you'll know for sure. The ones who do listen to you the way you listen to them and who get more invested and more excited when you bring more of yourself to the table, those are your people, especially in the dating world.

1:06:41And the more you do this, the more you'll know what you really want out of relationships, what other people want out of you. Your mindset and your standards are going to change dramatically. And that's awesome. This could have a ripple effect across your whole life. It will, for sure. No doubt about it. I'm actually very excited for him. So no, you don't need to settle for this dynamic going forward. This is absolutely something you can rewrite and you're already doing that. And I think it's great. And in terms of getting that feeling that people actually care about you, which man, that question was really, I don't know, there's something kind of sad about that, but I think that just speaks to the fact that you really want this connection and you deserve this connection.

1:07:19That feeling you're looking for is the natural by-product of being in healthy, fulfilling two-way relationships. When you're choosing people who are ready for those kinds of relationships too. And when you start showing up to those relationships with the right spirit and the right vulnerability, all of this stuff will take care of itself. You're not going to be going, oh, how do I get that feeling that this person cares about me? You'll be going, wow, I feel like this person cares about me and I care about them. And that'll be because both of you are sharing the spotlight and you're not hiding in different ways.

1:07:53Absolutely. And I know that's what he wants deep down too. So that's my invitation for you, man. Stop hiding. Find out what happens when you let more of you out. It might feel weird, but it's great. And it's really the only way to move through life. I'd also say to everyone listening, and it sounds like our writer is doing this already, give people a second chance if they end up talking your ear off and they don't show much interest, at least at first. I think some people rarely get a chance to share. They're seldom listened to. And when they get that chance, they're often so keen and so comfortable that they forget to take turns.

1:08:24It's only a problem if it keeps happening, like with our writer here. It's the same person, they're never interested. That's an issue. Otherwise, it's just a compliment to your skills as a listener. Hope you all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Go back and check out Yuval Noah Harari if you haven't done so yet. The best things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network. I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. The course is free. It's not gross.

1:08:51It's not schmoozy. It's on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. It's all the stuff I wish I knew 20 years ago with respect to networking and building relationships. Dig the well before you get thirsty. Build those relationships before you need them. jordanharbinger.com slash course. Show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discounts, and ways to support the show. All at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Go try the chatbot at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. Any feedback, Friday question, any interview, any promo code, all in there.

1:09:24I'm at Jordan Harbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also hit me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi. This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today.

1:09:58In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with pickpocket king, Bob Arno. Pickpockets don't talk. They lift and do everything silent. I have spent 20, 30 years befriending or getting very, very close into how they work. They can be put into three or four different categories. The skillful ones that are ashamed of what they're doing. Then you have the youngest one who couldn't care less about some moral compass. And then you have the ones who get out of work and some older guy is saying, hey, I want you to be part of the team.

1:10:45They weren't thinking of going into crime. There are many, many levels of pickpockets. Some are very aggressive and angry. The thieves picks it, but pickpocket never holds. So he passes it on to a partner. So if the police catches him two seconds after, he's clean. There's nothing on him. And the way there was none of this usual pickpocketing move, it was just the elegance was unbelievable. I had to look at it at least 10 times before I could see what the hell did I see. And some of them are very charming, by the way. And that goes with the territory. There's a very good smile and like a ping pong very quickly, boom, boom, boom, boom, back and forth.

1:11:31There's nothing slow. If you measure me against the very, very best in each country, I'm going to be a couple of pinhole below. The good pickpockets respect me for my skill. And they say, Bob, I don't understand. How in the hell did you get this skill? They are in awe. To learn pickpocket tricks of the trade and how to protect yourself against thieves, pickpockets and scam artists, check out episode 530 of The Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do you actively do it? That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in.

1:12:08This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day, you'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem. It's no wonder the show has climbed up to the top as the number one history podcast. It covers history, science, technology, geography, and stories of remarkable people, always in a way that keeps you hooked. Not sure where to jump in? Start with these favorites. The eruption of Krakatoa, nature's fury in one of the deadliest volcanic events ever recorded, or the spice trade, how a handful of spices changed the course of global history. If you want to make learning effortless and fun, check out Everything Everywhere Daily.

1:12:38It's quick, fascinating, and a perfect way to stay curious. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts.