850: Self-Help Cults | Skeptical Sunday

23:55I learned the secrets at 19 years old. And if someone out there is thinking of suing, then of course not. I would never do that. Right. In fact, this is for entertainment purposes only and the views expressed on this program do not necessarily reflect those of Jordan Harbinger, the Jordan Harbinger show, or David C. Smalley, so come at me, bro. Yeah, good. Cover those bases. So, look, when you're casting yourself as a self-help guru and you're selling used cars, it's not the best look. Werner changed his name to Jack Rosenberg, and then he experimented with the big dog on the self-help block, Scientology, which we should totally get into at some point.

24:30And Werner, Jack, or Sensei, or whatever he was called, he had an epiphany and he started Est. and Est was notorious for combative tactics and recruitment techniques like admonishing his students and pressuring them to recruit new devotees. The controversy didn't stop there. 1985, actually, Werner Jack Santos or whatever his name is, he changed the name of the group to The Forum after questions were raised over tax records. Taxes. Sounds like Sensei Jack didn't learn the biggest lesson from Scientology. And by the way, also, So it sounds like his original epiphany was just when he went to Scientology that he could actually just start his own cult and keep all the money.

25:12That sounds like the original epiphany to me. You're right. He didn't learn the biggest lesson, which would be become a religion and just stop paying taxes. Right. Yes, exactly. If you're going to copy Scientology, copy the stuff where they become a church, don't pay taxes, and then become a massive profit center. I mean, that's like the whole point. Right. So in 1991, he sold the company's technology, which is basically just those combative boot camp style engagements to his employees. So I guess scream at people. And then he left the country and then Landmark was born. They bought this and it just rebranded into Landmark.

25:43All right. So I have to be honest. I don't hear a lot about education or training in there, but I know a lot of show fans do enjoy some of the Landmark stuff and some very not crazy, not culty people go to like one or two and they're like, yeah, it was useful. I think the problem is when people do nonstop Landmark stuff for five straight years. Right. Right. So comedian Neil Brennan has this joke about terrorism. And he's like, so many people turn terrorism into racism when they see a few people taking Islam to the extreme and, you know, blowing things up. And then they start saying racist things about everybody they know who's Muslim.

26:17And he says, you know, Neil Brennan's one of the co-creators of The Chappelle Show. One of his jokes is he mentions that and then he goes, he goes, I want you to think about those guys as like, have you ever been to a Jay-Z concert and you know, like two songs, 99 problems, problems, you know, whatever, hard knock life. He's like, but there's always that one guy in the aisle singing every word to every obscure song that Jay-Z's doing. And he's like, he's making eye contact with Jay-Z hoping he sees him. He's like, that's the terrorist. Most Muslims are just as bad at their religion as you are at yours.

26:50And he's got this whole riff that he keeps going about. It's hilarious. That's a good point. Yeah. And the same applies here, right? So you can get good things from Landmark and then you can completely just let it take over your life. And so this podcast has a purpose of just helping you be skeptical and pump the brakes and stop and think about what you're doing. And I know a lot of people do get help. Personal experience can go a long way. And at the end of the day, results are results. And many people swear by Landmark. But remember that just because something works, it doesn't mean that's the only way to attain those results.

27:25Okay, so another similar group is Lifespring. for-profit human potential organization, according to them. And in the 1970s, a lot of people alleged that the group was a cult based on their coercive methods that prevented members from leaving, which I would say that probably qualifies them. That sounds like a little bit of a cult right there. You can't leave. Right. All right, fine. Yeah. At least two lawsuits were filed and settled out of court over wrongful deaths, actually. So, okay, deaths, self-help turned deadly? Yeah. So the Washington Post covered a few cases in 1987. One case was about a man who couldn't swim, Arthur Barnett.

28:02He was told by Lifespring to jump into a river. Oh, no. I'm not laughing, but I'm, okay, I'm not laughing. Don't. And he drowned. No, that's terrible. I gotta remember, I've told tons of people to go jump in a river. I had no idea I was a guru. Okay. There's a secret. You can laugh at that instead, right? Yes. That's what I'm laughing at. So was that their solution where he's like, I can't swim in the like, I have an idea, exposure therapy, jump in this fast moving river? Well, so it wasn't just that he couldn't swim. He had a fear of water. Okay. And so their idea was it would help him face his fear of water.

28:37I mean, not totally wrong, but also not right. Here's how the Post writes it. They say Lifespring also settled the case of Arthur Barnett, a Portland, Oregon man who could not swim but was convinced by his Lifespring trainer that he could overcome his fear of water by diving into the Williamette River. Barnett did it and drowned. God, well, he's no longer afraid of water. I'll see myself out. Wow. Okay. Do you want to give your email address now? This would be great for Feedback Friday, I think. Just keep going. Lifespring denied any responsibility, saying no one forced Barnett to jump into the river.

29:11Oh, man. Their actual quote was, the training doesn't cause anything, but life causes stuff. Okay, this poor guy. So I get the personal responsibility element here, but at some point, there's negligence involved. And I've been to some of the intro seminars for a spinoff of LifeSpring, and it was full of coercive tactics. The instructors hated me. I never went back. I've told this story a few times on the show. I mean, it's just, yeah, these places all seem like the same crap with a different sack. What'd you do, ask a question or something? Yeah, I ask questions and not like belligerently, but even just not wholly swallowing the crap that was coming from the guy on stage or being like, does this make sense?

29:52And what happens about this? They're just like, ah, this guy's thinking about what we're saying. We don't like that at all because they just want you to swallow everything. and they saw me talking to people who later got kicked out. One of the guys was a surgeon and his phone rang and they were like, you have to leave. And he's like, I'm on call, I'm a surgeon. And they were like, you have to prioritize. And he's like, okay, I'm gonna prioritize the lives of my patients over a self-help seminar that's at a hotel by the airport. And they asked him to leave. And he was like, okay, you're crazy if you think this seminar is more important than the fact that I'm a brain surgeon at a hospital.

30:24There's stuff like that. That's incredible that they would put themselves above something so important and think everyone else is gonna like that or think that it's good. Yeah, it was kind of one of those self-selecting things where they're like, if anybody agrees with this guy and not with us, they're not gonna subject themselves to our authority. So we don't want them here. Another girl that got kicked out that I was talking to, which is probably another reason I was on their list, this woman had said, can you let us go earlier than 2 a.m.? Y 'all said this is gonna be till seven or eight. I've got little kids at home.

30:51And then she just was never seen again after that. She left because they were like, you can't disrupt the flow. oh, you're not in charge here. And she's like, I know I'm not in charge, but like I have childcare. And they just gave her endless amounts of crap. So I think she just went home and was like, screw these a-holes. Crazy. Well, that post I was talking about also reported that in 1983, LifeSpring actually won a verdict in the case of Florence Simpson, Philadelphia woman who said that LifeSpring should have warned her of the emotional stress that could result from the training. And LifeSpring argued that Simpson should have heeded the company's instruction, and this is their argument, that people with psychological problems ought not take the course.

31:32So apparently it's self-help unless you have problems. The jury found that Simpson's prior psychological problems made it impossible to determine whether Lifespring had been the one to injure her, so Lifespring won. Okay, I'm sympathetic to both sides here, at least both arguments, I should say. But the way you phrase it is really funny. Like, it's self-help unless you have problems, in which case, don't come to us. We're self-help, we'll change your life. No, but not like that. This is a good little circular bit of logic here. We can help you, unless, of course, we damage you in the process of helping you, in which case we cannot help you at all, and you should not have come here for help in the first place.

32:10That's your fault. That one's on you. Exactly. They also allegedly caused another death in an asthmatic woman who was told her asthma was all in her head. She died of asthmatic exacerbation, and the list goes on. Like a lot of these leaders and gurus, a founder of LifeSpring had felony convictions in his past. His were mail fraud, and I think he was unsuccessful in his attempts to get the felony charges expunged. He then even, like, requested a pardon in the 1980s from Reagan. A well-known LifeSpring member turned anti-cult activist is one Jenny Thomas, the little bit shady wife of the Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas.

32:49Oh, yeah. Jeannie Thomas recounts publicly about LifeSprings' use of body shaming and being put into explicit situations for the good of the self. She went to a cult deprogrammer and still struggled for months to get out of LifeSprings' clutches. So this is the Jeannie Thomas. Isn't she also associated, allegedly, with QAnon and other sort of fringy, creepy, culty stuff? Yeah, allegedly. I guess maybe she needs more deprogramming. Yeah, sounds expensive. So cost is a big con when it comes to these things, and one that gets more and more expensive the more and more you get sucked into a class, a group, or a cult promising self-help.

33:27So the thing is, the leaders of these classes and retreats have little to no training or certifications. They produce this false sense of well-being. They exploit the most lost members of society, and there have been multiple accounts of sexual abuse, of course, at these events and retreats. all right we're going to take a quick break just remember in the meantime the entire world is against you and the only person that can save you is me we'll be right back this episode is sponsored in part by linkedin if you've ever hired for your small business you know how important it is to find the right person that's why linkedin jobs is stepping things up with their new ai assistant so you can feel comfortable you're finding top talent you can't find anywhere else the best part is that those great candidates are already on linkedin in fact employees hired through LinkedIn, they're 30 % more likely to stick around for at least a year compared to those hired through the leading competitor.

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34:42Hire right the first time. Post your job for free at linkedin.com slash harbinger. Then promote it to use LinkedIn Jobs' new AI assistant, making it easier and faster to find top candidates. That's linkedin.com slash harbinger to post your job for free. Terms and conditions apply. All right, we're back to Skeptical Sunday. Remember, all the deals, all the discount codes are at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Support those who support the show. Now, for the rest of Skeptical Sunday. No surprise with the sexual abuse stuff. It reminds me, again, of one of our recent episodes about NXIVM, which turned out to be a bit of a sex trafficking cult.

35:19I mentioned that episode earlier in the show with Sarah Edmondson, so go have a look for that. That was episode 770. All right, so what about accountability? Do these chickens ever come home to roost here or what? So, I mean, you're an adult. You sign waivers. You join willingly. These are private companies or members-only programs. They have a ton of money. They get the best legal experts to help them walk that line. And occasionally there is accountability in the form of settling out of court and maybe some hush money. But then they just rebrand and continue the same bullshit. It's heartbreaking, actually.

35:50Do you think anyone has ever helped completely? I know that's hard to quantify. Yeah, it is. It's hard to pin down. But people keep going back to these groups and organizations. But they're never told, hey, you're all better now. Go live a healthy life. You know, done. You completed it. But so what people need to think about is every company wants returned customers. So it's a bit of a conflict of interest for them to make it so that you never have to come back, which begs the question, are they doing a cigarette trick where they get you hooked in making you dependent on them for continued success?

36:20Stop and think about this. It's like unhappy people can so easily be taken advantage of and coerced to throw their money into the void of self-help, right? So life is constant self-help. I mean, we're all trying to make the best of it. The extreme of these self-help cults convinces those searching for meaning that genuine happiness is just a few purchases and experiences or books or lessons or classes away. And a lot of this self-help philosophy presents itself as secret knowledge, like the famous self-help bestseller, The Secret. Yeah. So for some, it's harmless entertainment. For some, you can get a little bit of help.

36:57For some, it's beneficial. But others are susceptible to dangerous groupthink. And it's the same mentality that sucks people into conspiracy theories or religions or cults or whatever. And that can lead to a detached reality. Okay, but you said there are positive outcomes. Absolutely. So just like with religions, positives can come from it, right? Even if it's not the only method of obtaining that result. So certain methods of self-help can help people in beating addiction, for example, which is a beautiful thing. But maybe they've transferred their addiction into whatever self-help ideology they've fallen into.

37:30that are people who have traded food addiction for a jogging addiction. And yeah, they lose weight, but now their feet look like peeled potatoes. People reap results, you know, but there are unsuspecting individuals who fall into these self-help traps that are, you know, expensive and create fresh problems in their lives. And it's just like anything. The extremes are definitely harmful. What are the alternatives? Are there alternatives? So that's where there needs to be a sort of self-help plan. A self-self-help plan, if you will. Got it, right. Like meditation is great, right? But anyone can do it for free anywhere after learning the basic tools.

38:06Group meditation is fine, but attachment to anything goes against the entire purpose. Some people say they do it to make themselves accountable and force themselves to do it if they've got a meeting on their calendar and a place to go and people who depend on them. And those things are all good, but sometimes you can get sucked into group think when you're just trying to help yourself. Demonized self-help groups aren't too different from the less harmful ones. I mean, you could shell out 20 bucks for a self-help book, but you have to be wise enough to research the best ones to read it and then not pay for some brainwashing material.

38:37And then sometimes it's going to start with something that's decent and good. And then you find yourself slipping into it by accident. That's the ultimate issue here. It's a slippery slope, right? You start something good. You agree with the main points. And then you find yourself doing something that you would never otherwise have done five years ago. And of course, as alternatives, therapy is always a good one, especially secular therapy to avoid being coerced into any sort of belief system. And I'll say here, seculartherapy.org is a great source to find a therapist that fits your needs. What can we say about an industry that relies on unhappy and lost individuals?

39:13Yeah, look, I mean, the way it breaks down is self-help retreats and programs lure you into this idea that enough time away from the real world and enough self-love will dissolve this discontented part of yourself. But in fact, it just ups the need for the retreats. It's like money or the chiropractor. It's never enough. There's no end that satisfies whatever you're searching for. What people are left with, whether it's their dependence on soul cycle or their book club or meditation or whatever weird fat exercise class or crystal healing or expensive retreats, none of that really completely ever develops strong coping skills for the real world or what you're really going through.

39:52Rather than distractions, you need to look for solutions. And I think you can find that in therapy. In fact, these groups can sometimes do the opposite. You can become disconnected from the world with this group of people doing the same self-help thing. And then when you get back to the real world, you can be more depressed than ever without the skills to deal with what happens in the day to day. So you end up throwing more money into the void of self-help over and over and you become this perpetual money machine for these so-called gurus. Right. Yeah. No one wakes up one day and says, I want to join a cult.

40:22This is obviously a slow burn. It's the boiling frog thing. And it happens to people really who don't think it'll ever happen to them. And I know that a lot of people think, oh, you have to be dumb to get sucked into a cult. You really don't. I mean, I've said that on cult episodes of the show many times. You find yourself there with people who all should, in theory, know better, but also don't because you're being manipulated, right? You're slowly being boiled. So what do people look for to make sure they're not slipping into something more sinister if they're at a self-help session? Because again, these things have their place, but how do you know if you're now getting recruited into something weird?

40:55So I have notes here from medium.com. They published an article back in 2018 called 10 Signs You're Probably in a Cult. So this is what people should look for. I'll go through them quickly. Number one, the leader is the ultimate authority. So if you're not allowed to criticize your leader, even if the criticism is true, you're probably in a cult. Mm-hmm. Number two, the group suppresses skepticism. If you're only allowed to study your organization through their approved sources, there's a huge flag. Ah, right. Scientology, for example, doesn't allow you to consume media about Scientology that's not from Scientology.

41:31That's a big rule. Exactly. The group delegitimizes former members, like you were talking about people being kind of ostracized. Mm-hmm. If you can't think of a legitimate reason for someone leaving your group, it might be a cult. Right. You should be able to say that person left for this valid reason, but I disagree with them, so I'm going to stay. If you can't even fathom a legitimate reason, there's a huge sign. Yeah, Scientology does this too, right? If you leave, you're considered a suppressive person, which means you're against Scientology and everything it stands for, and nobody's allowed to associate with you anymore.

42:02Yeah, that's culty. Number four, the group is paranoid about the outside world. So cults thrive on conspiracy theories, catastrophic thinking, and persecution complex, because we can see this with the recent political shifts and political cults out there, the whole QAnon stuff. Paranoid of the outside world. Everyone out there is trying to kill you. That's another huge red flag. Number five, the group relies on shame cycles. So if you need your group in order to feel worthy, loved, or sufficient, that's a huge red flag. The article explains this one by saying, cult leaders trap members in shame cycles by imposing abnormally strict codes of conduct, usually prescriptions about diet, appearance, sex, relationships, and media, guilting members for their shortcomings and then positioning themselves as the unique remedy to the feelings of guilt which they themselves created.

42:55I'm pretty sure you just described every religion, but okay. Like every single one. Shame is big with the religions for sure. Yeah, man. Number six, the leader is above their own rules. If you're held to a different moral standard than the leader, you're probably in a cult. So if the leader can get away with things, but they tell you that that's bad for you, huge red flag. Right. You have to be celibate, but I can bang everybody's wife. Yeah, including yours. And in fact, if you don't bring me one, you're going to stay on a lower level. And they usually say that by convincing you that they've reached some form of enlightenment that you have yet to reach to justify why they're able to do things you're not.

43:35Number seven, the group uses thought reform methods. So medium.com says this shows up as indoctrination or brainwashing, which is the process through which all cults slowly break down a person's sense of identity and ability to think rationally. So behaviors like excessive fasting, prayer, hypnosis, scripture reading, chanting, meditation, or even drug use, like the ayahuasca stuff, can also be used to increase a person's vulnerability to the leader's suggestions. And they go on to say, and I'm quoting from the article here, the hallmark of indoctrination is the use of thought terminating cliches.

44:14Platitudes like follow the leader or doubt your doubts are regurgitated over and over so that members don't have to critically analyze complex issues. End quote. Now we've heard those before. Let go and let God. Yeah. Right? ACAB, meaning all cops are bad. Right? Only God can judge me. Let's go, Brandon. and lock her up. It's easy to avoid complex issues if you can just repeat a quick little cliche and get out of critical thinking. Yeah, I've talked about that on the show before. Thought-terminating cliches are very, very common in pretty much every cult because there's always going to be people from the inside or the outside that question things.

44:52And if you think about things too long, you come to the inevitable conclusion that something is either bad or kooky or culty. One of my guests, Stephen Hassan, we did a bunch of cult episodes together. He's a PhD in cult psychology. and when he was in a cult, the Moonies, one of the things that he had to do, and this is so ridiculous just thinking about it, if his parents, for example, said something like, hey, we're worried about you, we think you're in a cult, he had to sing a song and close his ears so that he couldn't hear what they were saying. Can you imagine talking to a grown-ass man and you're like, look, we're worried about you, and he's like, ha, la, la, la, la, la, like a little child, like a toddler, and he had to do that, and that's sort of worse than a thought-terminating cliche, but it serves the same purpose.

45:32If they can convince you that the people trying to help you are the evil ones, then you think you're doing it for your own safety. Exactly. Yeah, it's like a magic song to keep them away. Yeah. Crazy. Number eight, the group is elitist. So the solution to all the world's problems are inside this cult. They've figured everything out. That's the idea. Cults often see themselves as enlightened, the chosen ones, the prime organization tasked with radically transforming the world. If your group suggests this, you might be in a cult. Mm-hmm. Number nine, there is no financial transparency. Interesting.

46:07A group that refuses to disclose its finances is a huge red flag. Ethical organizations have nothing to hide. Right, because again, these, and I know it's like people are like, well, what about private corporations? That's the thing, this isn't a company, right? It's a group that's for self-help. So it can be a company. You don't necessarily need to know where every dollar goes, but if it's like the company, we don't have money, or the group, we don't have money, you need to donate, you need to donate, you need to donate, but the leader has 16 rolls races, you're like, wait a minute, something's going on here.

46:35We have to eat rice and beans and farm our own food and this guy has his own jet. And by the way, for the company aspect, if you walk up to your boss and say, I'm not happy here, I'd like to quit, and they say, no, you're not at a company, okay? That's not a job. You are enslaved. Yeah. Correct. Number 10, the group performs secret rites. If there are secret teachings or ceremonies or handshakes that you didn't discover until after you joined. Huge red flag. You're probably in a cult. Yeah, look, there's more to it. Of course, this is a great little checklist. We have a whole playlist full of cult shows for people who want to really deep dive on this subject.

47:11JordanHarbinger.com slash start is where people can find them. Probably done at least half a dozen hours on cults. Probably more like twice that. So yeah, we've done a lot, a lot on this. Fascinating subject. Yeah, so I'll just close by telling people, look, eat your veggies. Drink lots of water. You want self-help. walk a little bit every day, talk about your problems, ideally with a qualified and licensed therapist, and be kind and forgiving every chance you get. You know, you're starting to sound a little bit like a self-help guru, Dave. Let's go make some bros-up pills. Thanks, David. Appreciate it.

47:42Thanks, Jordan. Thank you so much once again for listening. All topic suggestions, Jordan at jordanharbinger.com. And if we're way off on something, well, keep it to yourself because we're infallible. A link to the show notes for the episode can be found at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts in the show notes. I'm at Jordan Harbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn. You can find David Smalley at David C Smalley on all social media platforms at davidcsmalley.com or better yet on his podcast, The David C Smalley Show. Links to all that in the show notes as well. I heard you have Deepak Chopra coming up, Dave.

48:15This show is created in association with Podcast One. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogarty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, Josh Ballard, and of course, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love, and if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who needs to hear it, especially somebody who's maybe dipping their toes in the culty waters. In the meantime, do your best to apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you listen, and we'll see you next time.

48:51You're about to hear a preview of the Jordan Harbinger Show with a retired chef that somehow infiltrated the illicit North Korean arms trade. There was a meeting where people could come and see how North Korea is the propaganda way. It was like three hours praising Kim Il-sung by what he did for the country. When people ask me, how is it to go to North Korea? Well, it's quite difficult to describe because it's like your whole body is on overtime. You know you are being followed and what do I say and what do I do? how do I react to things? I'm going to the US to meet up with a CIA agent. I was like, wow.

49:28And I find out how the agent thinks. One of the most important things he taught me was to be a perfect mole or undercover agent is that you have to be 95 % yourself and then 5 % mole. The last 5 % is the one who observe. And I was really good to networking with people without people actually know I was networking with them. Everything was recorded. So I just literally took the pants down on the whole regime, exposing their weapons program. It's a never-ending story. For more on how Ulrich the Mole, a Danish chef and family man, wound up working undercover in North Korea to expose its illicit arms trade, check out episode 527 of The Jordan Harbinger Show.