857: Forever on the Lam from a Blackmailing Scam? | Feedback Friday

23:03next and then there's this thing about routing all her paychecks through her mom's bank account which I don't know how much to read into but I also find that kind of telling. I think we're talking about a young person who hasn't fully separated from mom and dad right logistically financially philosophically I don't necessarily hold that against her entirely I mean look it sounds like it's a pretty intense family pretty close-knit let's also remember that she's a sophomore in college if she's in college I mean she's 20 years old she's still so young but either way, she simply isn't her own person.

23:34And that can become a huge issue when the other partner here is his own person or when her values are just very different from his. But you know, I can't help but feel that mom and dad are also feeding that identification. I mean, look, I'm sorry, but what kind of parent doesn't say to their grown ass child with a job, honey, I think it's time for you to open your own Chase account. Right. It's a small thing, but it represents a big thing. When When mommy's keeping an eye on your deposits and withdrawing your own cash for you at 20 freaking years old, I think that might speak to some enforced dependency or probably some enmeshment.

24:08And I don't mean to be like, my life is the arbiter of all things normal, but I think I had a bank account when I was 11. Yeah, I think that is a meaningful thing. And also, she didn't tell her mom that they were having sex. Of course not. But then to your point, she shows her mom the texts saying that he would pay for an abortion, and her mom's response is, break up with him immediately. Like, what did she think? Yeah, yeah, none of her business, in my opinion. Although parents giving their kids advice, that happens all the time. So it's not totally crazy, but I guess what I'm confused about is, what are the lines in her relationship with her mom?

24:39Does she want some appropriate privacy from her parents so that she can carve out some space to make decisions of her own with her boyfriend? Or does she want her mom all up in her business, like she is in every other respect, it seems, so she can tell her what to do? Yeah, that's a really interesting point. She did like a weird 180 there. She's saying, I can't get an abortion because I don't want my parents to disown me. But the obvious answer to that is... Yeah, maybe don't show your mom the texts saying you might get an abortion. I mean, that's... Don't show your mom the texts. Exactly. It's puzzling.

25:12I just, I'm confused. I don't know what to make of that. So did she show her mom the text because she's freaking out because she doesn't know what she believes? Or did she show her the text because the idea of not having her mom know every detail of her life suddenly became very scary? Maybe it's even threatening to her mom a little bit, and she sensed that. I'm reaching a little bit, but these are all interesting possibilities. All good questions. There's no way we can know for sure. I do see what you're getting at. Either way, we keep coming back to the enmeshment. And also, I feel almost guilty saying this, but how did she never game out the consequences of this possibly happening?

25:45And then what was the solution that she was going to come to, right? Like, don't have sex if you're not going to think about what might happen as a result of having sex and then being okay with that. Whether it means carrying the child because of your beliefs or having the abortion, it's almost like it never occurred to her or him for that matter what might happen and they never talked about it. And I think that's a bigger problem because he was like, oh, this is terrible. We should solve this in this way. And she's like, are you kidding me? That's not an option. And now he's like, wait, the other option is we just have a child?

26:15Holy crap, how did we never talk about this? That's a sort of glaring issue in here as well. So look, you dodged a bullet here with the pregnancy. I'm glad you did because by your own admission, you guys are not ready to have a child, which seems like the only outcome that could have been allowable by your girlfriend. But my advice is to keep an eye on this quality in your girlfriend and start inviting her to talk about it with you. I'm not gonna say break up with her, your values are incompatible. That's a choice you would make. But I would do this in a way that's not too judgmental, not too accusatory.

26:46I wouldn't say, look, you're obviously your mom's puppet and that's a real problem for me. I would approach it more like, wow, this pregnancy thing was intense. I'm so glad we're okay. And I don't know about you, but this really taught me a lot about how we need to think about decisions like this. And then you can touch on a few of the ways that you notice your girlfriend referring to her parents' position on a lot of things or maybe deferring to them. And do it in a respectful, patient way. Ask her what she thinks, how she's been squaring her parents' views with her own. And how much of this is her fear of losing their love or their support?

27:19and how much of this is just about agreeing with their position. Yep, and whether her exposure to her parents is partly enabled by her dependence on them, the living situation, the money stuff, all of that. You're going to have to move pretty slowly here, though, because you'll be touching on something pretty delicate and pretty complicated with her parents. For sure, but man, this is so important because, like you said, this aspect of your girlfriend's personality and this dynamic with her parents, they could easily shape major decisions in your life together, which means your life, right? I mean, you could have ended up with a child with a girl that you met when she's 20 and you're 22.

27:56Holy crap. Then they're like, nope, we're raising this child with the same beliefs that we have because my way or the highway. And you're like, oh gosh. And suddenly you're in that you're going to church every Sunday, which is look not the end of the world. I think a lot of people would really enjoy that could use a little guidance of a church in their life. But if you've already decided that's not for you, then you probably don't want to be forced into it by your in-laws. Anyway, that could cause major issues, not only in your relationship, but like I said, in your life, especially when you guys are on different pages.

28:23To be clear, though, I don't think it's her or her family's faith or beliefs that are causing the rift here. I think it's that their beliefs and values are just so different. You know, I did a lot of actually religious girls, and I mean like conservative religious girls. I don't know how this kind of happened to me in college. I dated Orthodox Jewish women. I dated Christian women that didn't believe in evolution. Just imagine that for me, first of all. It's hard to picture. I did not. Hard to picture. I broke up with a girl because she just could not let it go that all people who don't belong to her specific branch of Lutheran, whatever, go to hell.

28:59And that I had to go to church or like I would constantly face belittling and annoying as stuff from luckily not her or her parents as much, but certainly all of their friends. Like I had friends of their family pull me aside and be like, what's the deal? Why don't you, and I'm like, none of your business, guy who I met five minutes ago in front of the punch bowl, in front of the jello mold at a church event that I'm attending with my girlfriend and her family. Like, F you, bro, who are you? And get your halitosis out of my face. I just remember so many of those. And I'm just thinking like, these are not people who are gonna allow us to raise our kids the way we want, regardless of what that even means.

29:36See, this is where it really comes in handy to be a spiritual gangster. And then you just don't, subscribe to any one denomination. That's right. You get your Tostitos and you get the f*** out. Like you don't have to sit there and deal with a lecture from some dude who's going to start quoting Bible Proverbs because you played Xbox. You know, Jordan, all of this is making me feel like I have to say, and I know it's not what he was writing in about, but I just feel like, look, I would really think about whether you want to be in a romantic relationship with someone who holds such different views on having a child at this age, or at least be very, very careful.

30:11I don't know how this pregnancy scare happened. Maybe you guys are super careful and it was a one-off thing. The condom broke, whatever. But at your age, with your beliefs, when both you and your girlfriend know you are not ready to have a child, having sex with someone who will not terminate a pregnancy that neither of you is ready for, you don't need us to tell you that that is a huge risk. It's very unfair to both of you. And it's also unfair to any child you guys might bring into the world. I mean, I think that is pretty straightforward. I don't mean to overstep here. I'm just saying if this were me in your shoes, this is a moment where I go, okay, should I really be involved with this person if we have radically different beliefs about something so important?

30:51Or if I can't trust her to at least arrive at a reasoned position on her own and not just fall back on what her parents believe because it's easier or because she's never asked herself what she actually believes. On a practical level right now, this to me is kind of the crucial issue. Amen, Gabe. I was getting a little sweaty throughout this segment for the same reason. He's worried about whether mom is going to make them send their kids to parochial school five minutes from their house. But the immediate issue here is, is mom going to make my girlfriend have kids two years out of high school because they just make her do whatever they believe and she hasn't thought about that at all.

31:26So yeah, I'm with you. We'd be remiss if we didn't call that out. And obviously, Gabe and I, we have our biases here. I'm not going to pretend that we don't. But the real issue here isn't that we happen to agree with you. It's that you're in a relationship with somebody who believes in something that you don't agree with. Slash someone who seems to be outsourcing crucial parts of herself to people with significant power over her. Yeah, outsourcing crucial parts of herself is a good way to put it. It's like philosophical offshoring. There's a concept, eh? I like that, yeah. Anyway, I hope that gives you a way forward here.

31:57Again, I'm not saying you should write off your girlfriend immediately. My hope is that you can help her develop these parts of herself and that she wants too. But if you get to a point where you realize that she can't or won't, or that she builds them up and her values are fundamentally incompatible with yours, I do think you need to reevaluate this relationship because then you got a different problem and one that you are 100 % right to identify now. In the meantime, for the love of God, please use protection, birth control, and rapid. I mean, come on, both of you, be responsible. Just a little oversteppy advice from your Uncle Jordan over here.

32:32And good luck. You can reach us Friday at jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Use descriptive subject lines. That makes our job a lot easier. If you're finding dead squirrels in the mailbox, your stepdad's got your nudes, or your sibling recovers memories of abuse you're not sure even happened, whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up, friday at jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help, and we keep every email anonymous. Okay, next up. Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm a young lady from Rwanda, and my father has always had a big ego. Recently, I found out that he has a second family and that that family lives a luxurious life.

33:09Wow, snap, that is quite a discovery. Holy moly. So he's just been carrying on with another woman in secret, had kids with her, and just didn't tell you guys? I mean, this is crazy. All right, continue. Since then, he said a lot of hurtful things. He told us that my siblings and I have to suffer so that his other family survives. Wow. And when he couldn't give us money, he told my disabled mom to be a vendor in the streets. Oh, man. This is really sad. Your dad is just a real... I'm trying to be diplomatic here. You said he has a big ego, but this is more than just narcissism. He's a piece of crap, this guy.

33:46Sorry, just facts. He's a POS. You guys have to suffer so my other family survives? What on earth is wrong with this guy? Telling your disabled mom to sell stuff in the street when he can't support his literal family, it's so tragic. It is. I'm very sorry. and also I want to punch this guy straight in the face repeatedly. Terrible guy. My father tells me that I'm not allowed to be emotional about any of this, but the discovery of this other family broke my heart. I try to be an obedient child, but he always expects the worst from me. But it's complicated because I'm still financially dependent on him.

34:20That is a very interesting parallel with the previous question. Yeah, sure is, man. Wow. Two different parents exerting control over their kids to some degree, financially. Financial control and abuse is real, man. How do I continue living peacefully with him for the next few years? Signed, looking to cohabitate with this heavyweight without taking the bait, having to altercate, or opening the floodgates. I would freaking kill this guy. That's just me. Not advice, obviously, but seriously, what a tale. What a father to have, if you can even call him that. I'm just speechless, to be honest. Your dad is cartoonishly evil.

34:56He has a secret family. He's prioritizing them at your expense. He's cruel to your mom. And on top of it, he's like, you're not allowed to be emotional about any of this. That's yeah. Like, excuse me, but screw you go fly a kite, man. Like he's being super callous about it. Right. Yes. I agree. That's almost the worst part. Just feeling invalidated and told you need to suck it up when your dad is profoundly hurting you because why he just doesn't want to deal with your emotions because you're not even worth considering. It's just, I'll hurt you and you can't get mad about it because I'm not going to spend the time dealing with it.

35:29Your dad is just a messy, macho, self-absorbed asshole. And you know this. And we could probably talk for hours about what it's like to have a dad like this. But to answer your question, how do you continue living peacefully with him for the next few years until you can separate? Well, first, you need to find a way to protect yourself emotionally from him as much as possible. And that, in my opinion, means a few things. One, recognize that your dad is acting out his own dysfunction, his own pain, his own patterns, and that, yes, his choices obviously impact you in very real ways, but that what he's done here, this is about him.

36:06This is not about you. And by that, I mean, this is a guy who's driven by his ego to the point of complete dysfunction, which I promise you is terrifying for him. Narcissism always develops to protect against extreme insecurity and vulnerability. And you're collateral damage in all this, for sure. But none of what he's done is a reflection of you or what you are worth, despite what he is doing his damnedest to try to communicate to you. It's a reflection of a very cruel, probably ignorant-ass man who, frankly, doesn't deserve to be called a father to a thoughtful, sensitive daughter like you, in my opinion.

36:41And I know that that's not easy to do, but as much as you can, remind yourself to separate those two things out. The other thing I would do is stay close to your mom and your siblings. Talk about all this with them. Create the love among yourselves that your father cannot give you. And that might not make the pain go away, but it will bring you guys closer together and it might give you guys the strength to make it through this chapter. At the same time, I would keep your distance from your dad as long as he behaves like this. And I mean that physically, if his presence in the house is difficult, but I mean that even more emotionally.

37:15I've talked about the idea of an emotional hazmat suit on the show before. That's what you gotta put on with your dad. There will be times when he hurts you. There will be times when he gets to you. But as much as possible, try to put a little force field around yourself. When he does something cruel, maybe you tell yourself, okay, this is my narcissistic dad doing his thing to me again. I'm just not going to let him injure me. That might not work all the time. Hey, if it even works 30 % of the time, that's progress. And part of that is also going, I'm not going to engage. I'm not going to feed the conflict.

37:46I'm just going to sit here very calmly and let it roll off my back or leave the room and take some space and prioritize myself. I'm not saying you can't push back and maybe that's appropriate sometimes, but given that your dad probably isn't going to change, I would focus more on ways you can spare yourself the turmoil and keep coming back to yourself. I totally agree, Jordan. Although I also don't hate the idea of her calling him out a little bit because to your point, part of the tragedy here is that she doesn't get a lot of permission to express herself in this family. And even if that doesn't change anything with her dad, it might be helpful for her to get in touch with some of that anger and express it at times when her dad acts inappropriately or is cruel to her or her mom.

38:29The point might not be to change her dad. It might just be to, like, let it out a little bit. And I'm guessing there's a lot of it. Yeah, I hear you. It's hard. I want her to have that voice, too. But I know it's just probably going to fall on deaf ears. Yeah. And might even make things worse for her and her family. This is not a guy who strikes me as he's going to listen and go, you know what, maybe I shouldn't have had a second family that I prioritized over you and then lied about it for decades. This guy's a piece of crap. Yeah, it's more like, guess who's paying for groceries on their own this month and going across to his other family.

38:58It might make things worse. But hey, maybe she finds other venues for that anger. I just think it's important in general that she locate it. That's what I'm saying. Other people, you mean? Yeah, other safe people outside of the family, a friend or a colleague or a peer, or maybe some kind of counselor or leader in her community, anyone who could be a friendly ear to her. But the best thing you could be doing, and you're already onto this, is finding a way to be financially independent from your dad. Because as long as you need him to support you, you're going to be exposed to his behavior. Fascinating parallel with the girlfriend from the last question, like you said.

39:31But you know what? You know what I predict here? She's going to go to a counselor or leader in the community, tell them what's going on, and the dad's going to go, you can't tell anyone about this. How dare you? You're ruining my life. This selfish prick is going to make her be quiet about this as much as he can. But you're right. When you have a parent like that, one of the best ways to protect yourself is to not rely on them financially anymore. And I get that that's easier said than done, but that's the solution. Right. then you're free to move out or move cities or go to school or form new relationships or just be able to say, look, I don't need to sit here and take this dad because I don't need to ask you to pay for my tuition or whatever it is.

40:07It can be very empowering. But yes, that's a process. In your case, it sounds like it'll take maybe a few years, but all this rage you feel toward your dad, that might be amazing fuel to set your life up in the way you need. And that might also be a really smart way to channel the anger. I like that, Gabe. Instead of raging at the asshole narcissist with a secret family, she focuses on school, on her career, on saving, knowing it's her ticket out of there. I think that's exactly right. So there you have it. Like I said, there's no silver bullet that'll make all of this easy or change your dad overnight.

40:41But as you get older, as you become independent, he'll be in a position to hurt you less and less. And hopefully one day, not at all. So keep focusing on that. And also, that is wild that you're writing to us from Rwanda. Amazing. Thank you so much for listening. We are happy that we can be a part of your life from so far away. I think I speak for Gabriel when I say that as well. That's a country I'd love to see. So if we head over your way, we'll take you out to dinner and get an update, sending you a big hug and all of our confidence. Gabriel, I hope that that dad dies a miserable, lonely, isolated death.

41:13Yeah, you are worked up about this guy. I'm worked up. This guy's, he's one of the worst kinds of people that I've ever heard of. Just to have a second family is terrible and lie about it is terrible. But then to be like, I'm going to just favor this other family is worse. And then when the other family finds out that you're doing that to be like, you're not allowed to get mad. I'm the only person that's allowed to have emotions or count for anything. It's like, just go throw yourself in front of a garbage truck and make the world a better place. You piece of garbage. It is just like wound on top of wound there, you know, and feeling like you are the secondary family, that you're unwanted or unappreciated.

41:50And then, you know, you have your very normal response to that. And the insult on top of injury is you're not allowed to even feel these things. Exactly. I hope if she takes one thing away from this episode, I hope it's that she knows she can have those reactions. Because I think the biggest loss here is not a father like this. It's the legacy of feeling like you're not allowed to take up some emotional space when something bad happens. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, leaning into the siblings and family that's not dysfunctional and disgusting. There's a part of me also, I wonder what his other family, like, do they know he has two families?

42:20Oh, I would love to know. Or are they also like, holy crap, you have two families? This is terrible. Don't worry, I never buy them anything. You get all the money. Well, that doesn't really help, man. Because if he lied to them, too, who cares if you have a sweet mountain bike when your dad has a secret family that he treats like crap? You know what I mean? Totally. Both of these families are going to inherit some very difficult stuff because of this arrangement. Definitely. That's why I'm like, okay, as soon as this guy retires, he's outlived his usefulness. I hope he chokes on a chicken bone.

42:46All right. You know what you won't have to share with your secret half-siblings, Gabriel? The amazing products and services that support this show. We'll be right back. Oh, the car from Carvana's here. Well, will you look at that? It's exactly what I ordered. Like, precisely. It would be crazy if there were any catches. But there aren't, right? Right. Because that's how car buying should be. With Carvana, you get the car you want. Choose delivery or pickup and a week to love it or return it. Buy your car today with Carvana. Delivery or pickup fees may apply. Limitations and exclusions may apply.

43:23See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. This episode is sponsored in part by The Gist Podcast. If you're looking for a news podcast that is smart, unfiltered, and doesn't just echo whatever side you already agree with, check out The Gist with my friend Mike Peska. Mike's been doing this longer than just about anyone. It's actually the longest-running daily news podcast. It's earned that spot on Apple's top charts for a reason. And each episode is around 30 minutes, so it's perfect for your commute or while you're making breakfast. It's always packed with sharp, thought-provoking takes.

43:48What I love about the gist is that it's not stuck in a partisan box. Mike, he's a really smart dude. He digs into real questions, the kind that most shows avoid because they don't fit neatly into a political lane. He'll challenge the right. He keeps the left honest. He dives into stuff like the New York City mayoral race, that whole cluster, and the chaos of sports betting, or even whether talking to your plants actually does anything. He's an award-winning journalist. He's not some schmo like me who's totally unqualified. You've probably seen his work in the Atlantic, the Free Press, the Washington Post.

44:15He's got that rare mix of wit, skepticism, and depth that makes even heavy topics fun to listen to. And he's a great dinner guest, just saying. So if you want your daily news with more brains and less noise, check out The Gist with Mike Peska every weekday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and you found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and considerate listeners do, which is take a moment and support our amazing sponsors. to learn more and get links to all of the discounts you hear on the show, jordanharbinger.com slash deals.

44:44Those are all great ways to support the show. You can also ask the AI chatbot on the website for any promo code. You can email me if you're super stinking lazy. I'll dig it up for you. Really want to thank those who support the show and make it possible for us to continue creating these episodes week after week. All right. Now back to Feedback Friday. Next up. Hey guys, I work a decent paying job that recently gave me a raise and I'm now making more money than I've ever made. When my girlfriend and I moved into our current place, she got a job as a scheduling assistant for a local doctor's office and took a significant pay cut.

45:18She's also only getting paid bi-weekly, which is making it hard for her to manage her money. This morning, while we were getting ready for work, she told me that her bank account was in the red because there were a few bills that came out of her account that she forgot about. She ended up transferring$50 out of our shared savings account to cover it. She also jokingly added that she was going to transfer an additional$10 to grab a Red Bull on her way to work, which, to be honest, rubbed me the wrong way. This is the way it's been for a couple months now. She runs out of money a week before she gets paid, and I end up footing the bill for the stuff she can't afford.

45:53On Mother's Day, for example, I had to pay for three gifts, a trip to a city an hour and a half away, and two meals out, all on top of our regular bills. I've been thinking about this, and I think it's time to merge our bank accounts. I'm not great at managing my money either, so I'm starting to believe if we do this, it will make it easier to keep track of everything. We've talked about having kids in the next couple years after I start making enough to take care of us. I'm planning on proposing soon, so I want to get over these hurdles as soon as I can. Is merging our accounts a good idea? How do I bring this up to her?

46:26Signed, trying to combine bread when my gal's in the red. Okay, so I don't know if you heard my little snort grunt when he mentioned merging the bank accounts, but that is not the direction I thought this letter was gonna take. Neither did I. No, no, this is not a good idea. This is an objectively bad idea. You and your girlfriend are not financially stable. By your own admission, you both struggle to manage your money responsibly. You guys need to figure out some cashflow stuff and more importantly, some values stuff before you even think about merging your finances. This story about your girlfriend running out of money because there were a few bills that came out of her account that she forgot about, that's the first red flag.

47:05Plus, she's living paycheck to paycheck, which obviously a lot of people do. I'm not saying that's entirely her fault or whatever, but it does mean that she's at much greater risk, which is even more puzzling, because it's like, if you're broke, shouldn't you be even more on top of your bills? When I had less money, I paid attention to everything. Now, I don't have to, in part because my wife does, but also because I'm like, oh, I forgot I got charged for that, or I didn't look at that restaurant bill, oh well. But when I was 20, I was like, I don't have this money. I cannot spend any money. So I just don't get how you can run out of money before you get paid and then not stay on top of these payments.

47:40I wonder if she's burying her head in the sand a little bit here. But the even bigger red flag, in my view, is borrowing money from you to cover these payments and then not paying you back or even discussing whether this arrangement still works for you. And then transferring another 10 bucks to grab a Red Bull on her way to work. Even if that was kind of a joke, I can't really tell how much of a joke that really was. But let's not forget that little fact. I think she was probably trying to be like, let me break the awkwardness by saying that. But that rubbed him the wrong way. I get that. It rubs me the wrong way, too.

48:12And it's like, dude, I have to cover your cell phone bill because you forgot you have to pay for your phone. And that Mother's Day trip to your mom's and your morning caffeine. And dang, Red Bull's 10 bucks now. Thanks, Obama. Come on, man. Nice. I'm also a little worried that she's chugging a Red Bull at 7.45 in the morning on her way to work at a doctor's office. Like, I know that's not really the point. Not the point, Gabe. Yeah, not the point. But I am wearing the spiritual gangster tank top, so I think that gives me license to comment on people's morning beverages. Oh, look at your moral superiority over here after your shavasana.

48:46I know, I'm so sanctimonious. I know that post-shavasana sanctimony is hitting today. It's real. But something about that doesn't sit right, given the facts. I know what you mean, Gabe. It's kind of like, is this the healthiest person? Is she kind of a hot mess in a few different departments? Has she not heard our skeptical Sunday on energy drinks? So many questions. I mean, look, we can debate whether downing a Red Bull in the morning is the healthiest option. I'm leaning toward it's not. But at a minimum, if you're really struggling financially, if you're essentially broke, should you really be spending$5 or$10 a day on a shitty drink from the Rotten Robbie?

49:22Like, can't you just make some Folgers at home? I don't understand. Ooh, Folgers, man, throwbacks so gross. I never realized what that even was until I made it and the coffee crystals just vanished into the water. I was like, how do I get the coffee part out? And they're like, you don't. It just vanishes in the water. It's a genius idea, but you will not convince me that that's actual coffee in any form. I'm not saying it's good coffee. I'm just saying if you're regularly going into overdraft, this feels like an easy place to cut back. Although, side note, I recently met a guy who loves Folgers, like travels with it wherever he goes, prefers it to fresh coffee, swears by this brand.

49:59That's a little weird, but I guess it makes sense because that product has been around for like a century and a half, right? I think so. Folgers and Maxwell House. Yeah, Maxwell House. Those are old AF. I don't really get the appeal. I guess maybe some people find it nostalgic or something. I guess so. I mean, look, if you're stuck in a trench in 1918 fighting the Jerry's and it's all you got, I can get behind it, I guess. I think that's pretty much the only case where it makes sense. Yeah, there were no Starbucks in Gallipoli. Like, I get it. If you're living in, you know, 2023, brew a damn fresh cup of coffee.

50:31We have the technology. You deserve better. Yeah, get your own coffee. What are we even talking about here? I'm lost again. Anyway, I think this is what rubbed our friend here the wrong way, too. The cost thing, not the Folgers thing. Not the Folgers thing. It's like when you see someone who complains about being broke just whip out a pack of cigarettes. It kind of paints a picture, right? So look, I'm not saying any of this to make you or your girlfriend feel bad. I actually admire that you're able to recognize that you're not great with money because that is the first step to working on this stuff.

51:01But to be totally blunt with you, this is not someone I would merge bank accounts with right now. And it's not just the dollars and cents of it. It's also about how she manages her life as a whole, how she's talking about this whole thing with you. And also, to be fair, how he relates to her when it comes to this kind of stuff. because when he said that this rubbed him the wrong way, I got the sense that he's kind of just sitting on this and stewing. They're not really discussing it openly and that's not helpful either. No, yeah, he's just serving her vicious side eye while she pounds a monster energy she bought with money she doesn't have gone.

51:34Well, hope this works itself out before we have kids. Right. But it won't, man, it won't. You guys have to work on this individually and together or it will become a huge issue when you have children, which as you may know are pretty damn expensive. Trust me, firsthand experience. Kids are not cheap. You said you want to propose soon. Congratulations, by the way. So you want to get over these hurdles as soon as you can. But the hurdle here isn't that your finances are separate. The hurdle here is that you guys need to become more financially fluent and more communicative inside the relationship.

52:06And the way I would frame that to her is, hey, honey, I want to talk about our finances. I know you're struggling to cover your expenses. I don't think I'm particularly good at managing money either. this is something I want us both to work on as we move forward with our relationship. And then you guys got to talk about how you spend money and where you can save and how you manage your cash flow and how you manage your bills. If it doesn't feel fair for your girlfriend to borrow money from you willy-nilly or to expect you to cover certain things you can't cover or you don't feel comfortable covering, then it's absolutely fair to talk about all of that.

52:42And please, please do this before you propose. This is not going to get easier. It's only gonna get harder and the stakes are only gonna get higher. And the cost to you, financial and otherwise, is only going to get steeper. So good luck. Congrats in advance. It's gonna be a hard conversation, but it's not gonna be the end of the world. You're gonna be better off and a stronger couple for it. So just rip off that Band-Aid, man. I also recommend checking out the book I Will Teach You To Be Rich by Ramit Sethi. He's been a guest on the show a zillion times. I've been friends with him for a million years.

53:14He teaches a lot of good financial habits. It's a book that you can't go wrong reading, having her read and then read it every freaking six months until it sinks in. It's only gonna become more important, especially because you're making more money now than you ever have, which is amazing. And you wanna hang onto that and make that money work for you. All right, before we wrap up here, we wanted to touch on the story from a few weeks back about the guy who went on a couple dates with that unstable woman who was a severe hoarder. and he ended things with her after a couple of dates. They never slept together.

53:46Then she started writing him aggressive messages nonstop. Then she started stalking him. And when he pulled back even more, she finally wrote him up in that Facebook group called Are We Dating the Same Guy, accusing him of abuse and assault, which basically ruined his dating life and could potentially threaten his career. We, unsurprisingly, got a ton of emails from you guys and gals with similar stories and really good advice, which we passed along to the guy who wrote in. So thank you so much for that. We don't have enough time to read all those, but Gabe, do you want to fill everyone in on the gist here?

54:16Sure. So yes, we got several emails from people who knew guys like the guy who wrote in, you know, people who broke up with somebody who then posted about them in these private Facebook groups. And there are tons of them. There seem to be Facebook groups like this in multiple cities and in other countries. And they're very common and very popular. And sometimes the people who post on them do it to get revenge when the guy in question didn't actually do anything. One of those stories was really disturbing, and it's way too long for us to read in its entirety right now, but the gist of the story is this listener who wrote us made a new friend a few years ago, and this new friend was very eager, like a little too eager to jump into their friendship, and she was, the way the listener described it, she was like very dramatic and very volatile and kind of over-shary, and basically she was kind of a hot mess, right?

55:03And then she starts dating this guy, and he seems promising, but he's a little bit wishy-washy. he's kind of inconsistent, he's not the greatest communicator, so maybe this guy has some issues. But according to the listener who wrote us, nothing overtly abusive. Finally, this guy eventually just ghosts this woman, and now she is enraged and she can't let it go. So she goes on this closed Facebook group called Guys Not To Date, and she writes him up for love bombing and ghosting, which it's not entirely clear if that's what this guy did, but that's what she says he did. and another woman in the group knows this guy.

55:39She went on a few dates with him too, and she slept with him, and she had a similar experience. So these two women meet up for coffee to talk, and suddenly these two are best friends. But the listener who wrote to us, she's watching this happen from afar, and she's thinking like, I don't think you guys understand the gravity of this post. You might have like harmed this guy's livelihood and his job opportunities and his dating prospects. This is actually a quote from her email. So she tells this woman, the original woman who posted, that she finds this whole thing dehumanizing, is the word she used, and she finds it hard to be friends with her now.

56:14And the woman who posted about this guy just bails on their whole friend group. She's like, you guys don't understand me, we can't be friends anymore. And to quote the listener who wrote in directly now, she said, ultimately, I hope by sharing this, groups like these get more regulation as they seem harmful. I have sexual trauma from my youth, and anyone who has been through it deserves to be heard and the perpetrators held accountable. But another friend of mine became curious about this group and joined, and the threads she showed me are frightening. There's a woman claiming rape and abuse of all kinds, with full names and pictures in the thread.

56:51Obviously, our system is flawed, but I hope we can keep pushing to make it better, not worse. Unquote. Which is more or less what the guy who wrote into us went through. He didn't do any of the things that woman accused him of, and his dating life and possibly his career took a huge hit. So I just find this fascinating because it's like, yes, groups like this serve an important function in a system that routinely lets victims down, but then they can clearly be weaponized sometimes by unscrupulous and or seriously compromised people. And honestly, I had no idea that this was happening with such frequency.

57:26That's exactly right. But then we got another letter from another listener with a crazy update on her story that she shared with us a long time ago. So way back when we took a question from a white woman who is dating a black man. Oh, yeah. I don't know if you guys remember this. And her boyfriend didn't want to introduce her to his family because he said his elderly mom who lived with him didn't approve of her because of her race. In fact, he said that she would probably attack her verbally if he ever brought her around the house. And that had become a huge obstacle in their relationship. And it made the listener who wrote us feel like they couldn't have a future together.

58:02Right. So she was asking us, do I push him to push her to be more accepting? Do I push him to move out? Do I break up with him? And if I remember correctly, our advice was basically talk to your boyfriend about all this. Tell him how it's affecting the relationship. help him work through this conflict with his mom, and get clear on what's more important to him, protecting mom's feelings or moving forward in this relationship with you, while also appreciating just how complex racial bias and other biases really are. Yes, that's right. By the way, that was episode 679, if you guys want to check it out.

58:33So that was the story, and then she wrote us this. Hey, guys. Boy, do I have an update for you. Whenever somebody starts a letter like that, I, like, get really excited. I'm like, oh, shit. Okay, let's hear it. It turns out that my boyfriend had much more sinister reasons for keeping me out of his life and for meeting his mom, who may or may not be racist. Turns out he's been living with another woman the entire time we've been together, about four years. Wow, okay, that is cold. So this guy was living a double life, speaking of secret families. Uh, not just double. So listen to this. She goes on, I was one of many other women.

59:14He would tell us all the same lie about his elderly mom living with him. He would sneak various women into the house he shared with his girlfriend at night after she was asleep and tell us that his mom was sleeping so we'd be quiet. He was having unprotected sex with everyone involved. Oh my god, hold up. Wow. So his mom didn't even live with him. He was just making that shit up to carry on with these other women. Wow. Apparently. Yes, I think that's it. So brazen. So brazen and so gross. Clever, but disgusting. Okay, so did he tell all these women that his fake mom is racist, or did he just say that to our friend here?

59:49I don't know. I guess it would depend on their ethnicities, right? True. You can't really pull the my mom is racist card with people of the same race. That would be pretty funny, though, if he did that. I suppose. Like, sorry, babe, you can't come to Sunday dinner. My mom's racist. But I'm black, too. Yeah, she's racist against black people, too. She's even racist against me. Well, at least she's consistent. It's so absurd. This sounds like a Dave Chappelle sketch. It does, yeah. What an elaborate lie, though. I don't even know how you can enjoy having sex with someone when your live-in girlfriend is sleeping on the other side of the wall.

1:00:21I don't get it. That's so stressful. Well, I'm gonna just go out on a limb and say that's part of what he enjoyed. The dude's got some serious issues. Yeah, that's true, clearly. I feel like the blackmailed guy from question one could give this guy some advice on how to get his life in order. No kidding. Sex addiction forsooth, among other issues. Something in that neighborhood, I'm guessing. Yeah. So, okay, she goes on. This has truly been horrific in ways I can't describe. I'm just starting to process the trauma this man inflicted upon me. Yeah, I can understand that. We're joking around. We're not having a laugh at your expense.

1:00:53It's just an absurd situation. Yeah, no kidding. She continues, I learned most of this through a Facebook group aimed at helping women protect themselves from harmful men in the dating world. Other women learned too and came forward with disturbing accounts of similar behavior from him. He did not take being exposed well, quickly blamed me and began playing the victim. Of course. So this guy is a textbook manipulator, a dumpster fire. You're lucky you found out now. This guy's a piece of crap too. I'm sorry it happened this way, but good freaking riddance to this guy. Ugh. Three days after I found all of this out, I heard your Feedback Friday episode with the man who was having his own dating woes from a similar type of Facebook group.

1:01:31I heard that story, shut it off, and threw my phone to the side and screamed. Mm. The group I used provided me with valuable information. It provided information necessary for multiple women to get away from him. I hear what you're saying, and I understand the need for moderated communities, but the very first thing this man did when exposed was try to discredit me and paint me as an angry, jilted lover. His live-in girlfriend was completely uninterested in anything I had to say. Yikes. Which was so invalidating. I know there are women who do terrible things to men, but usually we are the victims.

1:02:08As a devoted listener, I felt compelled to say something. Thank you both so much for caring about people, including me and my little life. Wow. Well, listen, I appreciate this update and I can definitely understand why that letter landed with you in a very specific way, given what you've been through. This Facebook group saved you from a toxic relationship, which is exactly what it's designed to do, and I'm glad about that. And then in this other part of the world, a similar Facebook group seriously compromises this guy's life in a deeply scary and unfair way. And that, to me, speaks to the need for groups like this in a world where bad people can do serious harm and to the need for these groups to be fairly moderated so that people just can't weaponize them because they're insane, which, in addition to being grossly unjust, is also an insult, well, to true victims like you.

1:02:56Anyway, we just wanted to share these updates because these are we dating the same guy type Facebook groups. They're a fascinating sub world we're learning more about. And I think they raise some really thorny questions about the right way to hold people accountable. I don't mean to gloss over how complicated this stuff is, but I find myself coming back to a common theme here on the show, which is it's rarely either or it's almost always both. And right women, human beings in general, of course, but unfortunately, most commonly women, they deserve protection from people like this. And people, yes, oftentimes men, but this happens to all kinds of people, deserve protection from people who weaponize these tools because they're angry, they're hurt, or in the case of the guy who wrote in recently, because they're literally insane and unstable.

1:03:42I don't think that's controversial to say. I also don't think those two values need to be in such tension. If what we're all after here is the truth, It's not crazy to me to expect that to cut both ways. That's the least we can do when people's lives on both sides of this equation are at stake. Hope y 'all enjoyed that. I wanna thank everyone who wrote in this week and everybody who listened. Thank you so much. Don't forget to check out Out of the Loop on Wagner and the coup in Russia, our episode with Ian Urbina on crime on the high seas, and of course, our skeptical Sunday on fireworks. Once again, a reminder that the Stitcher app will no longer work for any podcasts as of August 29th, 2023.

1:04:21So if you're using the Stitcher app, time to switch. If you're on Android, Podcast Addict is a good one, CastBox. And if you're on iOS, I suggest Overcast or Apple Podcasts. The Stitcher app is going away, folks. By the way, the greatest things that have happened in my life and business have come through my network and I'm teaching you how to do the same thing for yourself in our six-minute networking course. It's 100 % free, it's not gross, it's not schmoozy, and it's not awkward. You can find it on the Thinkific platform at jordanharbinger.com slash course. I'm teaching you how to dig the well before you get thirsty, build relationships before you need them in just a few minutes per day, all free at jordanharbinger.com slash course.

1:04:58Show notes at jordanharbinger.com. Transcripts are in the show notes. Advertisers, deals, discounts, ways to support the show, all at jordanharbinger.com slash deals. Go try the chatbot at jordanharbinger.com slash AI. I'm at jordanharbinger on both Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn and you can find Gabe on Instagram at Gabriel Mizrahi or on Twitter at Gabe Mizrahi if you want to roast him for his spiritual gangster tank tops. I'm guessing there are three or four of those bad boys in his closet. Let them have it. This show is created in association with Podcast One.

1:05:30My team is Jen Harbinger, Jace Sanderson, Robert Fogerty, Ian Baird, Millie Ocampo, and of course the spiritual gangster himself, Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own, and I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and Gabe is a spiritual gangster, but not your spiritual gangster. All right, that's enough throwbacks to that one. Do your own research before implementing anything you hear on the show. Ditto Corbin Payne. He's a lawyer too, but not your lawyer. Today's story was not in his area of expertise and he is not providing specific legal advice. He recommends getting personalized legal advice before making any decisions.

1:06:03And that is sound advice in itself. Remember, we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. And if you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who can use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn, and we'll see you next time. You're about to hear a preview of The Jordan Harbinger Show about why people believe and want to believe conspiracy theories. Pretty much anybody can fall for these theories. Pretty much anybody can start watching a YouTube video. And because a lot of these YouTube videos are very, very compelling, then they get sucked into it and they start believing one thing and then they start believing another thing.

1:06:40it becomes very understandable that they would believe these things. It's just regular people who have just kind of got sucked down a rabbit hole. It may seem ridiculous to everybody else, but from their perspective, it makes perfect sense they're doing it because they think they're on the side of good. So that's one of the reasons why I debunk. I want people to focus on real issues and not on the fake issues. When people start to make significant life decisions based on their conspiracy theories is where it becomes a problem. getting out of the rabbit hole isn't just like casting away all these false beliefs it's kind of climbing up into a world that's composed of all these new real beliefs into the light the actual real things that are going on and you can see more clearly what's going on in these other areas because you've got the light of reality helping you there there's harm done to the world i think if a significant number of people are making decisions based on things that are entirely false, things that are anti-science.

1:07:39My whole reason for doing this is based around increasing the amount of truth in the world, increasing the amount of facts and science in the world. But if things are left unchecked and if conspiracy theories continue to rise, there is this growing division within the country. So that could be a dangerous thing. To learn how to help our friends and family escape the conspiracy theory rabbit hole, check out episode 363 with Mick West on The Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by Everything Everywhere Daily. You've heard the phrase, learn something new every day. Sounds nice, but do you actively do it?

1:08:13That's where Everything Everywhere Daily comes in. This podcast makes it effortless. Just 10 minutes a day, you'll walk away with a fascinating fact, a slice of history, a science gem. It's no wonder the show has climbed up to the top as the number one history podcast. It covers history, science, technology, geography, and stories of remarkable people, always in a way that keeps you hooked. Not sure where to jump in? Start with these favorites. The eruption of Krakatoa, nature's fury in one of the deadliest volcanic events ever recorded, or the spice trade, how a handful of spices changed the course of global history.

1:08:41If you want to make learning effortless and fun, check out Everything Everywhere Daily. It's quick, fascinating, and a perfect way to stay curious. Listen now wherever you get your podcasts. This episode is sponsored in part by Conspirituality Podcast. You know how I'm always talking about critical thinking and spotting manipulation? Well, there's a podcast that's all about dismantling New Age cults, wellness grifters, and conspiracy-mad yogis, basically the wild overlap of spirituality and misinformation. It's called the Conspirituality Podcast. The hosts, a journalist, cult researcher, and a philosophical skeptic, dive deep into how this stuff spreads, from Project 2025 and the Heritage Foundation's dystopian vision of the future to how former leftists get pulled into far-right conspiracies.

1:09:22An interesting episode to check out is called Speaking Truth to Goop, where Jen Gunter breaks down the pseudoscience behind the wellness industry in a way that is super entertaining and eye-opening. It's sharp, funny, and makes you a lot harder to fool, which, if you listen to this show, you know I'm all about that. From exploring cults to analyzing our cultural and political landscape, the Conspirituality Podcast will help you stay informed against misinformation and resist fear tactics. Find Conspirituality on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and wherever you get your podcasts.